Topic started by Thirumalvalava Gounder (@ adsl-81-50-248.asm.bellsouth.net) on Tue Nov 6 20:10:42 .
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I am surprised to find dasavatar descriptions during the past 10 yesrs have included Budha as an avatar and has kicked out balarama. I think it is a feeble attempt by Hindus to please Budhists and avoid the wrath of SriLankan Budhists.

Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Cheeyum (@ koch.econ.iastate.edu) on: Wed Nov 21 10:18:34
  
  Karthik, I think you would enjoying discussing objectively the scriptures in the Mailing list of the the three principle vedantas. I have listed the Sites for you. You can find the mailing list/discussion groups which regularly discuss the vedanta
  
  Advaita Vedanta
  http://www.advaita-vedanta.org
  
  Visisthadvaita Vedanta
  http://www.ramanuja.org
  
  Dvaita Vedanta
  http://www.dvaita.org
  
  
• From: Karthik (@ 129.212.54.201) on: Wed Nov 21 17:18:02
  
  Cheeyum:
  
  Thanks a lot for providing those links. I appreciate it very much.
  
  
• From: Thirumalvalava Gounder (@ adsl-81-42-75.asm.bellsouth.net) on: Fri Nov 23 18:41:28
  
  This posting has been very rewarding. I thank all the participants.
  Thirumavalava Gaundar aka Sombu Nilagreiser aka Eastern Larry aka Dr. Kamala .
  
  
• From: anu (@ ppp10-90.chdr01.wipro.net.in) on: Mon Dec 31 02:27:53
  
  Karthik,
  
  Thanks for the detailed information on avataras and their categories.
  I have a few queries on your post..
  1. 'Kaaranodakashayi Vishnu who creates all material energy'
  I think the Puranas follow the samkhya Yoga which describes the purusha-prakrithi relationship. If so, material energy should be the creation of prakriti, which seems to be in conflict with the above. the same prakriti is at times called 'Vishnumaya' so are we talking about vishnu's maya here?
  
  It is interesting to see the reference to an incarnation in kaliyuga.'Pitavatara in Kali yuga as a devotee (Srimad Bhagavatam 11.5.32).'
  As a devotee of whom?
  
  Cheeyum, thanks for the explanation on Parashurama.
  
  
• From: anu (@ ppp10-90.chdr01.wipro.net.in) on: Mon Dec 31 02:34:54
  
  For some reason I could not locate this thread on 'older topics'..had to do a google search for it!
  
  
• From: Karthik (@ 129.212.54.201) on: Wed Jan 2 15:07:30
  
  Anu:
  
  I need to reference and get back to you on the first question. As for the second on SB 11.5.32, he was supposed to be born as a devotee of Krishna himself, to show the world about the culmination of Bhakti. Gaudiya Vaishnava sampradaya holds that this description fits Sri Chaitanya.
  
  
• From: Cheeyum (@ malolan.stures.iastate.edu) on: Thu Jan 3 02:10:57
  
  usha:
  
  "The puranas that had been referred by all of you were compiled between 3rd to 5th century AD during the time of the Guptas"
  
  No. The Puranas are as old as the Vedas themselves. The Date of compositions of the vedas are in Debate which revolves ultimately around the "origins of the aryans". Western Indologists place it at 1500 BCE and Indian Indologists place it at 10,000 BCE. From Internal astronomical observations on the calculation of the position of the vernal equinox in the constellation of punarvasu, the date of 10,000 BCE is what comes out.
  
  The vedics sources pegg the date much more earlier, infact place the Mahabharata War years before the beginning of the present Kali Yuga, i.e 5102 BCE. Hence the puranas we composoed centuries before the Mahabharata War
  
  
• From: Karthik (@ 129.212.54.201) on: Thu Jan 3 14:23:20
  
  I agree with Cheeyum 100%. Western Indologists like Max Mueller dated the vedas purely on conjecture. He himself admitted to that later. And, as I pointed out in the thread "Vedic roots of ancient Tamils" in TN history section, linguistics is not a science. It is very subjective and dating an ancient work on the basis of perceived evolutionary pattern of languages is bogus. Ancient works should be dated only by the astronomical markers contained therein, as they cannot at all be faked. And can be verified scientifically. And that can be supported by archeological evidence, if available. Contemporary literary references come third. Inscriptions etc., come fourth. So, going by a scientific methodology, vedas are very very old. So, are the Puranas (most of them). I am planning to post a new topic on the dating of ancient literature soon. And nothing can be more false than dating the vedas on the supposed AIT, which stands discredited today.
  
  Cheeyum, can you please try to answer Anu?
  
  
• From: Cheeyum (@ malolan.stures.iastate.edu) on: Thu Jan 3 18:38:37
  
  Anu and Karthik:
  
  I do not have a lot os scholarship to answer your question. But you should direct your question to the mailing lists of vedanta(s) as I listed above, you would find the best answer from a scholar.
  
  
• From: Vinod Pai (@ csy-dl-comm.he-va.apexinc.com) on: Sun Jan 20 20:26:59
  
  Dear Sir,
  
  I need the photos of ten avataras.
  
  Regards,
  
  Vinod Pai
  
  
• From: anu (@ 203.200.144.141) on: Mon Jan 21 05:55:44
  
  Cheeyum and Karthik,
  Thanks very much for the links to the discussion forums and for the info. This is a refreshing change from the other threads found here, hence I'd surely be back again with more questions :)
  
  
• From: R.SHANKAR (@ 202.56.251.41) on: Thu Jan 24 15:34:30
  
  THE FOLLOWERS OF VISHISHTADWAITA HAVE NEVER ACCEPTED BUDDHA AS AN AVATARA OF VISHNU.NOTICE HOW PARASHARABHATTA CRITICIZES BUDDHA IN HIS SHRIRANGARAJA-STAVA'VARADA,SUGATAPASHAHA CHORALAAVYAM VILAAVYHA,' 'MY WISH YIELDING LORD,SUGATA[BUDDHA] HAS TO BE CHOPPED-OFF LIKE A THIEF'.REFERENCE TO BUDDHA IS SEEN IN MAHABHARATA WHEN THE STORY OF THE DESTRUCTION OF TRIPURA[THE THREE AIREAL CITIES OF DEMONS]IS BEING NARRATED.ACCORDING TO THIS STORY,THE PEOPLE OF TRIPURA WERE VERY RIGHTEOUS AND UNLESS THEY TURNED WICKED THE THREE CITIES COULD NOT BE DESTROYED.AT THIS MOMENT,VISHNU ASSUMED THE FORM OF JINAACHARYA[WHO WAS LATER EQUATED WITH BUDDHA]AND SPREAD A PHILOSOPHY OF ATHIESM AMONG THEM THUS TURNING THEIR ATTENTION AWAY FROM GOD AND TOWARDS MATERIALISTIC PLEASURES.SINCE GOUTAMA BUDDHA PREACHED THE ATHEISTIC'SHOONYA-VAADA'PHILOSOPHY,HE WAS PROBABLY EQUATED WITH THE CHARECTER IN MAHABHARATA THUS GIVING HIM A MYTHOLOGICAL PRESENCE.HOWEVER BY THE TIME OF THE SANSKRIT POET,KSHEMENDRA,[11TH CENTURY A.D]HIS DIVINITY HAD BEEN FIXED,FOR THE POET INCLUDES HIM IN HIS DASHAAVATAARA-CHARITAM.THE POET JAYADEVA,IN HIS GEETA-GOVINDAM PRAISES BUDDHA AMONG OTHER AVATAARAS-NINDASI YAGNA-VIDHEHE AHAHA SHRUTHI-JAATAM,SADAYA-HRIDAYA DARSHITHA PASHU-GHATAM,KESHAVA,DHRITA BUDDHA-SHAREERA[OH!KESHAVA ,WHO TOOK THE FORM OF BUDDHA,YOU CRITICIZE THE VEDAS FOR THEIR SANCTION TO PERFORM ANIMAL SACRIFICE AGAINST WHICH YOU PLEAD WITH A SOFT HEART.BUDDHA'S CONNECTION WITH ATHIESM DOES NOT MAKE HIM UNPLEASANT TO HINDOOS.INFACT,KSHEMENDRA WHO ORIGINALLY WAS A SHAIVAITE LATER BECAME A VAISHNAVAITE AND EMBRACED BUDDHISM DURING HIS LAST DAYS ,HIS ADHERANCE TO WHICH HE EXPRESSED THROUGH HIS POEM'BOUDDHAAVADANA-KALPALATA'IT WAS SUCH A FREEDOM OF THOUGHT THAT THE HINDU SOCIETY OFFERED THAT MADE PURSUIT OF TRUTH MORE IMPORTANT THAN FOLLOWING ANY SINGLE RELIGION
  
  
• From: Kuppusamy (@ adsl-81-49-99.asm.bellsouth.net) on: Wed Feb 13 18:46:06
  
  It appears thet the Budha who is an avatar is not Gautama or Sidhartha. Regardless, do the postings explain why Balarama was dropped out from the list in recent years? Are there then 11 avatars?
  
  
• From: davie (@ ip-200-56-233-5-mx.marcatel.net.mx) on: Sat Oct 30 16:05:43
  
  Hinduism born out of english dictionary is full of avatars of ghosts, pigs, devils, donkey, rats and what not. I think Even Gandhiji was avatar of some great leader of tamilnadu.
  
  
• From: davie (@ s0030140939) on: Mon Nov 8 22:14:05 EST 2004
  
  i) caste in ancient india was based on character rather than color or birth. eg) thieves were assumed lowest caste
  ii) dark people and non brahmins ruled india especially the south infact they constituted many brahmins. So there is no doubt that dark brahmins who are present today were existing even before a 2000 years as brahmins.
  iii) dravidian kings ruled south india
  iv) All indians are immigrants into india at one period or the other for a time span of 25000 yrs. The list includes aryans and dravidians.
  BRAHMINS and BRAHMINISM WERE PRESENT IN INDIA EVEN BEFORE ARYAN INVASION
  
  
• From: truth (@ dsl-chn-111.253.247.61.touchtelindia.net) on: Sat Nov 13 07:08:44 EST 2004
  
  Sudra Brain is dull brain
  
  
• From: black ba$tard (@ 24.109.128.230) on: Sat Nov 13 12:04:09 EST 2004
  
  Iyerism is capable of making any god, goddess as avatar. Even Jessus is now avatar of brahmin dikc.
  
  
• From: Harish Kumar (@ 203-195-196-234.now-india.net.in) on: Sun Nov 14 05:34:46 EST 2004
  
  Neither does Dvaita accept The uddha as an Avatar of Vishnu.
  
  
  
• From: davie (@ cim-14.cim.utep.edu) on: Sun Nov 14 13:10:09 EST 2004
  
  everyone knows that buddha got enlightned. only when a person becomes enlightned he can think about the real essence of life. i respect buddhism as a religion next to christianity which i admire.
  
  
• From: davie (@ 129.108.36.187) on: Tue Nov 16 21:53:21 EST 2004
  
  Buddha got enlightened. So he did not accept or preach the concept of god. Instead his approach was more humanitarian. Any enlightened human being (like me to) will argue the same stuff.
  get enlightned guys
  
  
• From: davie (@ 129.108.36.187) on: Tue Nov 16 21:54:44 EST 2004
  
  shudras were business men
  khastrias were kings
  brahmins were priests
  
  
• From: truth (@ dsl-chn-111.253.247.61.touchtelindia.net) on: Thu Nov 18 06:37:56 EST 2004
  
  Okay .. u Asuras need some direction, as usual.
  If u believe in periyar, u will believe in Ambedkar too.
  They Asura gurus.
  Read the book "Soothiran Yaar" by Ambedkar.
  When it says even SC/ST of Maharashtra too r not considered a part of Varnasram, how come u Dravidian outsiders call urself Hindus??
  
  Coz u built temples????
  The Aryans needed some coolies to build thier temples.
  Dravidians being physically strong were given a chance life the stones up over.
  If a mason built ur house, will u call him ur brother?
  Gandhi said "If I call a barber home, I expect him to bring along with him knives and scissors, not to engage my daughter with him"
  If u understand this u will know where u belong.
  
  
• From: davie (@ universi-bh1wsz) on: Thu Nov 18 08:05:32 EST 2004
  
  asuras is the name given by valmiki to demons (people with devilish character like ravana the khastria).
  Valmiki used to conflicts with kings (even south indian kings eg ravana). So he wrote his story against somekings especially ravana.
  i wrote my brilliant posting that valmiki is biased before 6 months. projection of land
  
  NEVER EVER BELIEVE OR PUT TRUST IN BOOKS WRITTEN BY INDIAN AUTHORS FROM INDIA.
  
  NEVER EVER BELIEVE OR PUT TRUST IN SOME WESITES COS THEY SAY THAT THEY HAVE FREEDOM OF SPEECH AND WRITE AL WRONG INFO.
  
  put trust on scientific journal papers from www.anthrosource.net coz biasing scientific research is a crime.
  
  
• From: davie (@ tandon-lpt) on: Thu Nov 18 08:10:05 EST 2004
  
  we did not build temples. We were doctors (vaishyas), warriors (khsatrias eg southie kings)
  business men (shudras) etc
  
  Its not surprising that all these facts correlate with the fact that CASTE IN INDIA WAS NOT BASED ON COLOR OR BIRTH.
  
  Brahmins always had conflicts with khastrias even during ancient times as who is superior.
  just because they are priests does not mean that other people like kshatrias etc are inferior.
  
  And the bottom end is black brahmins existed evenbefore 1000 or 2000 years like they are existing today, because being a brahmin or kshatria does not depend upon color.
  And people like truth, tony and some more brahmins are just south indian people whose ancestors were priests
  
  
• From: davie (@ tandon-lpt) on: Thu Nov 18 08:11:53 EST 2004
  
  correcton, we need not necessarily build temples like brahmin cooks who cook for marriage functions.
  this forum is getting more interesting than my interesting yahoo chess. Wow i love this
  
  
• From: davie (@ 3p.ecc.utep.edu) on: Fri Nov 19 17:51:07 EST 2004
  
  the idols (gods) are also black in south inddia
  
  
• From: davie (@ laptop1) on: Sat Nov 20 06:49:28 EST 2004
  
  
  lol
  in the context of ramayana, we are the gods (khastrias) aand u brahmins should worship us.
  
  Coz, u know that brahmin lady surpanaka (sister of brahmin ravana) just wanted to marry rama and rama said no because she was ugly and also he had alreay married sita.
  
  So ramas brother cut surpanaka (brahmins ladys) nose.
  lol.
  only because of this ravana the brahmin king just abducted sita.lol.
  U BRAHMINS ARE SO STUPID THAT U DESERVE TO BE KILLED. U ARE THE DEMONS.
  
  rama was a kshatria. Well as i gave u all a rigorous proof about who is a kshatria in india (especially north and south). I dont know about north, but in south we (non brahmins) are were the kshatrias. Gods and idols are dark in south india.
  
  brahmins worship rama and oppose the devil (the brahmin ravana).
  
  In this forum there are brahmin asuras who use different names still they are all asuras - evil.
  
  
• From: davie (@ tandon-lpt) on: Sat Nov 20 07:04:14 EST 2004
  
  now sankara is the new asura (head ) for all u asuras. its similar to ravana (brahmin asura) was head of set of other demons (brahmin asuraas)
  
  

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