Hinduism, Initial concept of Shiva, Trinity...

[anbu_kathir]

Sunil avargaLE.

I'm from London, one of the worlds multicultural melting pots

Good to know that.

Sanatana Dharma (The eternal law) as read on Wiki (A site open to edit) states that amongst polytheism, monotheism and pantheism even atheism is encompassed as a set of a belief.

If Wiki says that, Wiki is wrong. A system of faith can be a part of Sanatana Dharma if and only if it does not reject the claims of the Veda. And Sanatana Dharma is Hinduism. Atheism, which rejects belief in any supernatural entities whatsoever, rejects claims like rebirth and the principle of Karma, cannot be within Hinduism. A tradition can be a subtradition of Hinduism if and only if there is no rejection of the principle of rebirth, the principle of Karma (action reaction across births), the principle of Natural Order called Dharma, and the authority of the Veda in settling philosophical questions.

He saw a prayer book in my dorm and asked, "Do you know the meaning of every prayer you read or do you just recite it for the sake of praying?" I paused and he asked me again, "What's the point in praying, if you don't understand the prayer?"

For e.g. Gayatri Mantra - The most universal chant amongst Hinduism and different people from different sects chant this on a day to day basis. I did not know how to translate it and hence couldn't answer his question at that time. I took that scenario as a stepping stone and realized that it's only worth reciting a hymn/chant etc. if you understand it. Hence where possible I try to find translations, otherwise honestly it does seem pretty pointless.

Sunilji, there is no issue in trying to understand the meaning of a prayer before praying. But its incorrect to say that there is *no* use whatsoever in trying to pray without knowing its meaning.

For example, when we were children, we were taught many little rhymes to memorise and sing. From an adults perspective, the child has no understanding of these rhymes, their meaning is trivial, and therefore it is useless. Yet, it can definitely be said that these rhymes help the child to comprehend and reproduce sounds, to get some hold on the form and structure of language, and does indeed contribute in a small way to the child's development. Similarly, during school, we were taught so many subjects which are not relevant to our life today. Yet studying each of these subjects was not useless, simply because they helped us to understand how to go about studying itself (besides the obvious GK, increase in memory capacity,etc).


Of course, the analogies above only to illustrate a point that there are several things in our life which are useful even before we understand their meaning. In the same way, the prayers, even without understanding the meaning, reap fruit if they are chanted with faith and humility. The fruits of prayer will be more if they are told keeping the meaning in mind, but they are not useless even otherwise. Of course, really speaking this statement about prayer has to be taken on faith only.

Another notion he put forward, was that all different religious books are manmade. It’s not really the word of God!

There is no evidence for the claim that all religious books are man made. But it is definitely a logical statement. If you have read about the Veda, you would have noticed that it has no authorship associated with it, which is rather unlike the other religions.

But after visiting holy places, e.g. mosque, churches and mandir’s I do feel there is God beyond our body. When visiting these places of worship, generally there are herds of people who share and are surrounded by the same divine energy. I too feel this energy and don’t think it’s just a contagious feeling that everyone does just to fit in the scene.

First I must ask you here. What you do think "God" is anyway? Is it a person or something else? Without defining it, it might not be accurate to say that "God is beyond our body" or "God is within each of us". People generally have some conceptualization of "God" as a "non-material" entity that they know from common parlance. But the technical definition(s) for God in Hinduism is(are) different and rather based on common sense and the individual's capability to understand.

I told him that I don’t see the idea of worshiping a stone to which he replied, “Did you know that idol worshiping exists in Islam?”

No devout Hindu believes he is "worshiping a stone". There is no awkwardness in his manner of worshiping, for through the stone shines the Lord himself and he is pretty clear that it is that Lord that is worshiped. People who claim to not worship idols and yet claim to be religious are funny, because they then start worshiping some other symbol, like the Swastika or Om or the Kabba or a Cross or some other mental image. The essential point here is that *any* form of worship requires an image as a second entity to oneself. Now this image can be either material or mental. There can really be *no* worship but idol worship, only that in some cases the idol is actually made of some material, in other cases, it is an insignia, and in some others, it is a mental image. In any case, to one who is a believer, each represents the Divinity only.

Nov, WRT to our convo on FB, the day we meet, before doing anything else, we should deffo go for a phat mea

I don't remember us chatting on facebook! Perhaps I am forgetting things, or you got me confused with someone else.

Love and Light.

[SoftSword]

Sunilji, there is no issue in trying to understand the meaning of a prayer before praying. But its incorrect to say that there is *no* use whatsoever in trying to pray without knowing its meaning.

For example, when we were children, we were taught many little rhymes to memorise and sing. From an adults perspective, the child has no understanding of these rhymes, their meaning is trivial, and therefore it is useless. Yet, it can definitely be said that these rhymes help the child to comprehend and reproduce sounds, to get some hold on the form and structure of language, and does indeed contribute in a small way to the child's development. Similarly, during school, we were taught so many subjects which are not relevant to our life today. Yet studying each of these subjects was not useless, simply because they helped us to understand how to go about studying itself (besides the obvious GK, increase in memory capacity,etc).


Of course, the analogies above only to illustrate a point that there are several things in our life which are useful even before we understand their meaning. In the same way, the prayers, even without understanding the meaning, reap fruit if they are chanted with faith and humility. The fruits of prayer will be more if they are told keeping the meaning in mind, but they are not useless even otherwise. Of course, really speaking this statement about prayer has to be taken on faith only.

do u mean to say if faith is the foremost and if that is there, it doesn matter what you are chanting?
in that case cant just faith be enuf, why do u need a chant at all?

correct me if i am wrong.

[anbu_kathir]

do u mean to say if faith is the foremost and if that is there, it doesn matter what you are chanting?
in that case cant just faith be enuf, why do u need a chant at all?

correct me if i am wrong.

Since this question has little meaning beyond religion, I am going to assume the tenets of Hinduism before answering the question.

Every individual when he or she prays asks essentially for removal of some situation that causes suffering and sustenance of comfortable/happy situations. All prayer is for these two only. Faith means having firm belief that God is perfectly capable of helping us move through our difficult situations and restoring/sustaining the happy situations in our lives. Without this firm belief, our prayers will only be a lie, and therefore will not bear fruit.

Now to the issue of the activity itself, which involves doing something or the other to demonstrate this faith (it might be chanting, or going to temple, or lighting a lamp.. anything at all). This activity is required to ensure the commitment of the individual to his faith. "Faith" by itself has no meaning to it if it does not drive activity. Such a faith is dormant and amounts to nothing, for in the world, it is only the activities that matter.

Furthermore, in the initial stages, such faith-related activity should not be yet another worldly activity, which involves our daily routine of acquiring survival and comforts. This is important because our minds are already trained to think only of our worldly concerns and worries during these activities, and it will be near impossible to use these activities as "prayer". Thus, a dedicated non-worldly activity is required to help concentrate the mind on the divine, not distracting it with the concerns of the world.

Such activity is also necessary because the individual often loses sight of the fact that he or she only has the ability to do actions and does not have the capability of controlling which reactions have to come at what times, and with what intensity. The principle of Karma, which merely says that actions are rewarded justly, does not offer us any information about the time delays or the intensities with which the rewards come. Conjoining faith with a particular activity makes it a ritual, and in effect is also supposed to remind the individual that there are forces beyond his or her control, and prepare him psychologically to handle whatever experiences may turn up at his doorstep as a just result of his prior actions (known or unknown).

As to the particulars of the ritual itself, why one has to do it in one way or another, the only (secular) answer that comes to my mind is that there is a certain inherent potency it carries because it has been reinforced through generations of practice by the elders in the particular tradition, or other people close to the individual whose opinions and actions he or she might have come to respect. All these increase the faith that one has on the ritual, and enables it to take effect more powerfully within the mind of the individual.

Love and Light.

[Sunil_M88]

Forgot to ask, what's the reasoning behind certain people getting possessed by God during religions ceremonies and functions. I've witnessed this during Gujarati Garba outings during Navratri. My granddad, who was a monothiest Hindu before only worshiping shiv ji (yet he had his friend read him the bhagvad gita before passing away), used to shun these people as being pakhandis (attention seekers)

[NOV]

different ppl have different ways of finding god

being judgmental takes you away from real spirituality

imagine hinduism as a complete education system from kindergarden to multi-phd's and doctorates.
ppl are at different levels of spirituality
only the arrogant high school kid will look down on the kindergarden kid
our purpose in life is to advance ourselves... so lets worry only abt our progress

there is really nothing wrong or right

[Sunil_M88]

different ppl have different ways of finding god

being judgmental takes you away from real spirituality

imagine hinduism as a complete education system from kindergarden to multi-phd's and doctorates.
ppl are at different levels of spirituality
only the arrogant high school kid will look down on the kindergarden kid
our purpose in life is to advance ourselves... so lets worry only abt our progress

there is really nothing wrong or right

My motto is, as long as you're true to yourself then you don't need to worry about following religious practices e.g. giving up meat, fasting, performing penchants like an ascetic etc. God is there and if you acknowledge him, you automatically get self satisfaction! (No need for atheists to pounce on me, this is just my belief and if anyone disagrees then let's just agree to disagree)

[Sunil_M88]

Though I may not follow a certain sect, I still respect every sect. In relation to Isckon, if its followers are reaping personal benefits from the chants, then who are we to question whether this sect is fanatical or not?

[NOV]

Though I may not follow a certain sect, I still respect every sect.

thats one positive step forward in spirituality

[PARAMASHIVAN]

Though I may not follow a certain sect, I still respect every sect. In relation to Isckon, if its followers are reaping personal benefits from the chants, then who are we to question whether this sect is fanatical or not?

What I am saying is it is no use following any faiths, as faiths and reality are two different things! Start the jounery from within

[PARAMASHIVAN]

Though I may not follow a certain sect, I still respect every sect. In relation to Isckon, if its followers are reaping personal benefits from the chants, then who are we to question whether this sect is fanatical or not?

Sects and Faiths are man made, of course you have to respect every sects, cultures, religion (man made), etc etc this is just the "human thing" it has nothing to do with spirituality