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Topic started by vinay (@ adsl-67-39-3-180.dsl.dytnoh.ameritech.net) on Wed Oct 22 22:07:56 .
Hey,
I strongly believe that tamil language has its own roots and is independent from any other language in the world. But I now have a doubt. Is the word "kamam" in tamil is derived from Sanskrit or not. Because in sanskrit too we have "kama".
The Japanese Islands name, 'Izu' and 'kuril Islands' the word 'Izu' and 'kuril' what do they mean in Japanese? Do they have connection with the Thamizh words 'Izhu' and 'kuril?'
Thiru Neduncheziyan avargale!!
Vanakkam. The word "thaLapathi" is derived as follows:
The root is thaL, which means that which is at the base and increased in size or in other ways.
thaL > thaaL - foot, feet, base.
"eNkuNaththaan thaaLai vaNangkaath thalai" (kuraL).
"thaaLunda niiraith thaalayaale than tharuthalaal" (Avvai).
thaaL > thaaLam: beats as synchronised by the movement of the feet; now, generally, any beat of drum or as measured by the movement of hands.
thaL > thaLam : base, something like feet, from which all movement takes place. Organisational base.
thaLam + pathi = thaLapathi. (the leader of a base; a base commander.)
pathi-thal: pathinthu iruththal. ( entrenched or well secured in a place. ) (other meanings are not relevant here at this moment).
pathi = a ruler or official or commander, entrenched or well-secured in a place; one who rules the place; a leader.
From the above, "thaLapathi" meaning is clear.
CONTD:
"naayakan" naayar (plural).
Meaning as above.
Also, the word naagan corrupts to "naayan", which is a different derivation from the above naayan, thus giving the word "naayan" two meanings.
Naayan = padaiththalaivan; this, together with naagan> naayan, became a caste later. We need not go beyond word derivation here.
Thiru Neduncheziyan,
There is some bug in this thread and some of the things I wrote went missing.
naya + aka(m) + an = naayakan.
naya (verb) > nayaththal = virumbuthal, pinchelluthal.
Look at the phrase: piRanmanai nayaththal.
CONTD
naayakan - one who is liked; one who is followed; a leader; a general.
naya + an = naayan, (singular). naayar (plural)
meaning as above.
Since naagan also derived to "naayan", the word naayan has two births and two meanings. It eventually evolved into a caste. We need not go beyond derivation of words.
contd
The word sengunthan also denotes a position in the military, like the word "lance corporal".
Senguntham = a lance or stave, that is carried by the person who marches ahead of his force of men or platoon.
muthal> muthali: one who marches ahead of his force. This word is found in stone inscriptions as "padaimuthali", as per researchers. It shortened to "muthali" . Meaning is clear from the word: it means the first person. (not a general, but a right marker or left marker in marching.)
We are here only concerned with word derivation. We set aside the social aspects etc such as what connotations the word attained as it progressed through time.
contd:
akam + padi + ar = akaththup padinthu iruppavar. Internal (palace) workers or guards.
maRavan = a soldier.
Military workers have evolved into castes in many instances and therefore, these ranks cannot be neatly set against current Western military ranks most of the time.
CONTD:
As between Japanese and Tamil, researches are going on. I shall rever to them in due course and let you know, thiru Neduncheziyan avargale!!
correction: rever read as refer. Thanks and sorry for errors.
//"eNkuNaththaan thaaLai vaNangkaath thalai" (kuraL).//
The common definition given to this kural, is that right? There are people who say that 30 kurals in Thirukkural were inserted into the Thirukkural at a later time and wasn't in the original Kurals that Thiruvalluvar wrote.
//As between Japanese and Tamil, researches are going on. I shall rever to them in due course and let you know, thiru Neduncheziyan avargale!!//
nanRi
THIRU A P MASILMANI avargaLae!
paNnivu __/__
//The word sengunthan also denotes a position in the military, like the word "lance corporal".//
Does the word 'Sengunthan' have any connection with the Cheran 'Chenkuttuvan?' What does Chenkuttuvan means?
Hello Thiru Masilamani,
I think the work Vidhavai (widow in Tamil), is derived from the sankrit work Vidhva as it is very close to the english word Widow. Let me know if I'am right.
Also let me know what is the pure Tamil word for Widow..
Thanks
I mean, Sanskrit word is original and Tamil word is derived from it as the Sanskrit word is very close to English word...
Thiru Chandrashekar,
Vithavai may be Indo-European in origin, and may have been taken from Skrt. Pure Tamil word is "KaimpeN".
Regards.
//wasn't in the original Kurals that Thiruvalluvar wrote.//
Thiru Neduncheziyan avargale! No way to confirm. Even if someone else wrote and inserted it, it must have occurred long before; the word "thaaL" was then already in use.
//connection with the Cheran 'Chenkuttuvan//
No connection with the Cheran. Kuttuvan was from Kuttanaadu. "Kuttuthal" here is said to mean "Ethiriyaik kuttuthal". Kuttuthal: kuttaiyakkuthal (making the other smaller in battle or thalaiyil kuttuthal: knocking with one's knuckles on the head of another
Senguntham: kuntham = stave or stick. Senguntham is a stick which is held upright when marching.
(Senguththaaka pidikkum kOl).
¦ºõ(¨Á) + ÌòÐ + «õ = ¦ºíÌó¾õ ( "ò" ±ýÀÐ "ó" ¬¸ ¦ÁÄ¢ó¾Ð)
nanRi.
Thiru Neduncheziyan.
You did not ask if Kuttuvan became "Kutty" - now a caste title in Kerala!! Some researchers think so.
nanRi Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae!!
What is an equivalent word for the word 'Luck?' People use 'athistam' but thats either sanskiritized Thamizh word or a sanskirit word.
I once heard from someone that Thamizhars had 16 or more different age sections. For instance in English say you'd have Child age, Teenage then adult etc ( I don't know if there are anything in between those in English). Anyhow, do you know those stages in Thamizh? Would you please list them?
nanRi, vaNnakkam
//"Kutty"//
Isn't kutty also mean 'peN'(female) in Malayalam? Like eE peN
your site details tell me
Thiru Neduncheziyan avargale!
PeN paruvangaL 7:-
pEthai 5 to 7
pethumpai 8 - 11
mankai 12 - 13
madanthai 14 - 19
arivai 20 - 25
therivai 26 - 31
pEriLampeN 32 - 40
You can get a few more by including mUthAtti, kizavi and so on, but I do not think there are any defined ages for them. If amy author gives such a list of more than 7, we shall exchange it for knowledge.
CONTD..
A girl of sweet age is usually referred to in MalayaLam as "PeNKidA".
PathinEziletiya peNkidAAvum . pAna pAtiratil muntirich chaaRum - a line from a song by Kavi VayalAr.
Kutti can mean child, e.g. peNkutti pRasavichchu.
nanRi Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae!
The musical instrument 'nAthasvaram' how is it called in pure Thamizh? Is the word 'vayathu' sanskirit? What about the word 'anjali?'
Thiru Nakeran (nakkEran) from Muzhakkam Thamizh seithth-thAL (from Canada) said vayathu isn't Thamizh and 'akavai' is good Thamizh and that 'aka vaNakkam' is good Thamizh and 'anjali' is sanskirit.
oh and btw those 7 ages for women, they make sense.
Is there a different one for 'aANkaL?' or they are kind of similar?
//7 ages//
7 stages
Buy tamil books online @
www.udumalai.com
I have found out that the name 'peruvankiyam' or something was how 'nAthaswaram' called..let me double check that.
and how do you say 'Apple' in SenThamizh?
What is the pure Thamizh for 'koiyAp pazham?'
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Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae!
//[Middle English, from Old English mann. See man-1 in Indo-European Roots.] //
www.dictionary.com
That is some information of the root word of the English word 'man' that I found on the website www.dictionary.com
You have told me that Devanayap Pavanar had proved the Thamizh word 'maN' in his etymological works to have come from the Thamizh word 'man'
Although the maN in Thamizh means soil or Land and where as the English word 'man' means human being. Is there a connection? Did it go to English from Thamizh? or was it just a coincident in sound?
nanRi, paNivu __/\__
Thiru Neduncheziyan avargale!
On Nathaswaram etc., I will get back to you shortly. :!:
I thought of writing a detail account of the derivation of the word Naathaswaram, however, I have time only to make a brief submission on it now, Thiru Neduncheziyan avargale!!
Naatham comes from the word T: "naa" (tongue), The naatham (pleasant sound - "ps") that was known to Tamils or humans generally and for which they coined a name was the naatham from their own tongues. The ps from instruments came later as they became able to use them. Instrumental ps were an accompaniment to the naatham from "naa".
Once there were instruments and man was able to bring out ps from them, the term naatham also embraced such instrumental ps.
Suram comes from the word "suraththal" - that which issues forth from his tongue or instruments and flows... Sura + am = suram!!
Later suram > Skrt: swaram.
naatham + suram = naathasuram.
Naathasuram is Tamil music and from TN or South India.
Thiru Neduncheziyan avargale!
man [ Áý ] is the root for both (i) maanthan, manithan and manpathai, mannuyir , mannan on one hand and (ii) maN [ Áñ ] on the other hand.
man [ Áý ] has more than one meaning.
(A) mannuthal [ ÁýÛ¾ø ] - be permanent, be present at all times.
(B) mannuthal [ ÁýÛ¾ø ] - sinthiththal (thinking).
Words referring to humans came from mannuthal, meaning thinking person.
MaN (soil) came from the same word mannuthal in its other meaning of something permaneet.
Indo-European "man" is close to the Tamil words, just as "manushya" (Skrt).
The explanation is that Indo European languages borrowed this word from Tamil at very early stage, whilst in contact with Sumerian civilisation. After all, Tamil is the mother of many world languages.Research has shown Tamil (archaic) was being used in Sumerian area.
There is no cause for concern when the same word or connected word is found in Indo-European. People of IE were in contact with Archaic Tamil in West Asia before IEs dispersed eastwards and westwards.
Take the word vithavai, which we said may be Indo-European in origin.
In Greek, it was in the form "eitheos" and it did not denote a lady who has lost her husband, but a man who had given up ( or postponed) his marriage. Sanskrit borrowed from Greek and used the word to refer to a widow (female). All other IE languages followed Skrt. Latin widuus meant a widow.
The root word for Greek was Tamil vidu = give up (give up or postpone marriage in this instance.). Do you see the connection now?
Hence, in archaic or proto Tamil, there should have been a word viduvai (vidu + vai (suffix) ) , meaning a person who gave up marriage and this must have been borrowed by Greek. We lost the complete word viduvai but we still have the root word : vidu, quite fortunately.
Greek borrowed vidu but had its own suffix (os) added to it. (Compare: Christ > Christos).
LATIN also used its own suffix ( vidu-us) us suffix just like Julius.
But Skrt retained the Tamil suffix vai: Skrt form is "vithava" vai> va.
.Quite clear that we lost the word viduvai but still have the root of all these words shown above.
How fortunate!! We still have the raw material but lost the finished product and have borrowed a replica or:
viduvai (T) corrupted to vithava in Tamil itself i and the original thereafter was lost. Either way it did not make a difference.
Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae!
nanRi! nanRi! nanRi!!!
It is intersting to know the root of the word Nathasuram which came from Natham + suram as you have said above. To think that Thamizhars have been mostly using the sanskirit form of the Thamizh word Nathasuram is really sad. Anyway does the word Peruvankiyam denotes to Nathasuram?
The facts about the word 'widow' you said is very intersting! I guess that word stand as one of the proof to show that Thamizh is mother of MANY Languages!
Viduvai --> vidu+(us) in Latin and vidu+(os)
I don't know how people forgot the word 'viduvai' and began to use 'vithavai' in Thamizh, could have been the Sanskirit influence. Don't you think using the word 'viduvai' is more appropriate Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae? After all the word is easily understandable 'vidu+vai' for any one.
nanRi, paNivu!
//for anyone//
by anyone
Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae!
remember the time I asked you about the word 'wheel' and its equivalent word in Thamizh where you said 'uruLai' is better to be used for 'wheel'
Then I came across the Thirukkural (athikaaram 94, kural 933)
UruLAiyam oOvAthu kUrin poruLAyam
pOip puramAe padum - Thiruvalluvar
you know what that kural means and the word 'uruLAyam' denotes to 'uruLum karuvi.' Anyway can we use the word 'uruLAyam' for the word 'Wheel?'
What about tyre? How do we call the wheel tyre in Thamizh?
What are the root words for 'kannadam', 'Thelunku' and 'Malayalam?'
did kannadam originated from the same root word as 'karnatakam' meaning ancient land or something? or did it come from the roots 'kannadam' and 'adaiththal?'
What about Thelunku? Did Malayalam come from the fact it became a dialect of the mountain range Thamizh people? Did it come from manipraLavam or something?
nanRi, paNivu Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae!
Thiru Neduncheziyan avargale!!
You may use viduvai in inverted commas with vithavai in brackets beside it to make the meaning clear. I shall revert.
//Anyway can we use the word 'uruLAyam' for the word 'Wheel?' //
"uruLaayam" [ ¯ÕÇ¡Âõ ] here means a rotating wheel used in gambling and it appears to be a game like "roulette". The bettor or punter announces a number and if the rotating wheel comes to stop at that number, he wins. A small ball may be dropped to select the number instead of verbally proposing it and if the revolving wheel comes to stop at that number where the ball has sat, he may be the winner. There may be other ways of playing. You have to consult a Chinese gambling expert. They are the real world experts in gambling. In SE Asia some Bangladeshis are good at these games and have found employment (illegal) as assistants of the Chinese operators. Tamils seem to be no good at gambling.
The word "kuuRin" [ ÜÈ¢ý] shows that during the time of Thiruvalluvar, the number used to be selected by word of mouth rather than a small ball as in roulette.
In a game of "tikam-tikam" the wheel is fixed and does not rotate; it has numbers written on it and the punter places his chips on the number he selects. If a rotating arm with a suspended arrow- like point finally rests and points at that number, the punter wins. The stakes will be as pre-agreed between the punter and the operator of the game. Finance usually is managed by a third person and assistant of the operator.
The hands and mind must be fast if you are to be successful. KuRaL No. 325 "kaiyum tharukki" refers to this dexterity.
Looks like Valluvar knew about gaming methods. The component “aayam” in “uruLaayam” by itself means “game” or “gambling”. The underlying etymological meaning refers to the processing that goes on in gambling: selecting numbers, placing of bets, acceptance of bets, beginning of the game and methods of play and assessments at various levels, the display of skill in handling the gaming instruments, the element of chance and its degree, final decision as to “win/lose” and payment. Gambling and the various games are a study by themselves and if you did PhD in other discipline, you may still be nobody in the field of gambling. One can be sold!! There are few books available and not all games may be covered. The Tamil word “aayam” came from “aaithal” and the ancient Tamils must be praised for selecting the root word “aai” ( meaning look very deeply into, research , process something and its intricacies ) to denote gambling. Those ignorant of gaming and its complexities may not understand why and how “aayam” was formed. One person I admired for his knowledge in this area is Justice Choor Singh (retired judge of the Supreme Court of Singapore ) who wrote GAMING IN MALAYA. See if you can get this book if you just want to know how complex things in gambling can be. Thus the word “aayam” is beautifully formulated.
Prostitution, Intoxicating liquor consumption and Gaming are “evils” and they have been juxta-positioned as chapters in KuraL. These evils usually operate in close proximity to one another (in one or adjacent areas ) and hence the choice and placement of chapters in KuRaL is beautiful.
Thank you for bringing up uruLaayam.
As the wheel mentioned in KuRaL refers to the gambling wheel, it is not applicable to a vehicular wheel.
Thus uruLaayam is different from uruLai. NanRi.
Thiru Neduncheziyan avargale!
I think we have discussed some time back with regard to the derivations of the words, Telugu, Kannadam, Thulu, and MalayaLam. Have you downloaded our discussion< Kindly check.
Anyway,
Malai + aaLam = malayaaLam ( malainaattu mozhi).
Kannadam said to be from Karunadam but disputed by other researchers.
Telugu - several etymologies but researchers rejected one another.
TuLu similarly no concensus.
But you may be interested in knowing one variety of the many etymologies and this variety centred on sweet stuff.
Telugu from thenugu > theen (honey).
Kannadam from kannal, meaning sugarcane (juice).
TuLu from thuLi, i.e., theenthuLi (honey drop).
Thamiz from tami+iz , tami = tani (no equal). iz = inimai.
Malai = malaiththeen (mountain honey). aaLam suffix.
Some are saying how come everything is sweet with these five languages!!
Bharathithaasan says:
pandaith thamizum thamizil malarnththa
pannikar thelungu thuLu malayaaLam,
kandai nikar kannadam enum mozikaL
kamazak kalaikaL siRantha naadu,
Kandai nikar - kaRkaNdai nikarththa (equal to rock sugar). So he believed in this "sweet" etymologies. kandu = kaRkkandu made from sugarcane so kannal > kannadam.
paMMikar telungu - telugu that is equal to a paNN - a musical stanza,
Barathi said "sundarath thelungu".
You find it interesting?
Àñ¨¼ò ¾Á¢Øõ ¾Á¢Æ¢ø ÁÄ÷ó¾
Àñ½¢¸÷ ¦¾ÖíÌ ÐÙ Á¨Ä¡Çõ
¸ñ¨¼ ¿¢¸÷ ¸ýɼõ ±Ûõ ¦Á¡Æ¢¸û
¸ÁÆì ¸¨Ä¸û º¢Èó¾ ¿¡Î.
//Barathi said "sundarath thelungu".
You find it interesting?//
I have heard the objection against Bharathi and Bharthithaasan as more patriotic Thamizhar than Bharathiyaar. Although Bharthiyaar worked against gender discriminations, caste discriminations, however his view as a Thamizh pulavar was different than how other Pulavars viewed. Not only that as you are aware of the fact that no Thamizh patriotic pulavar says, "Singhalath Theevukku paalam amaippom" while Thamizhars lives in that Island and lives vastly around 64% of the coast of that Island. The name Eezham in Thamizh literature went to Ilangai and then Bharthiyar made it even worse by calling it "Singhalath Theevu."
There is a reason to believe the influence of 'Thelunku music' during foreigners rule, after 'nayakkar kAlam' may have made him sang "Suntharath Thelunkil pAtisaippom..." etc. Then again he sang the song, "yAmarintha mozhikalil Thamizh mozhi pOl engkum kANOm..." there are belifs that he was a drug 'addict' and so people say that if he was one then no one knows when he sang which one.
If Bharathi said 'Suntharath Thelunku' and his meaning was related to the song Bhaarathithaasan sang, the one you have listed above...
//Àñ¨¼ò ¾Á¢Øõ ¾Á¢Æ¢ø ÁÄ÷ó¾
Àñ½¢¸÷ ¦¾ÖíÌ ÐÙ Á¨Ä¡Çõ
¸ñ¨¼ ¿¢¸÷ ¸ýɼõ ±Ûõ ¦Á¡Æ¢¸û
¸ÁÆì ¸¨Ä¸û º¢Èó¾ ¿¡Î.//
Then thats different.
nanRi, Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae! paNivu.
//The name Eezham in Thamizh literature went to Ilangai and then Bharthiyar made it even worse by calling it "Singhalath Theevu."//
Hmm, thiru Neduncheziyan avargale, true. Just for literary discussion: (which I think is no harm). But do you think Barathi can be excused for using the word because at the time, (1) India and Lanka have not become indepedent yet and the British were still ruling; (2) Eezam was then a literary word used in Ilakkiyam and SingaLam was commonly understood; (3) Tamils and Singalese were then living in harmany under British peace; (4) He had no idea that there would be a future problem, After all, he did his best for the Language which became richer. Some of these reasons overlap and are not mutually exclusive.
Can we accomodate him on that ground? Of course no kavingar would refer to Lanka as Singalath Theevu nowadays.
Barathithaasan also used the word "singaLam".
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¾£Ã¡¾¢ ¾£Ã¦ÃýÚ °Ð ºí§¸!
±í¸û À¨¸Å÷ ±í§¸¡ Á¨Èó¾¡÷
þíÌûÇ ¾Á¢Æ÷¸û ´ýÈ¡¾ø ¸ñ§¼!
I think it was the popular usage at the time to refer to Lanka as singaLath thiivu, singaLam and so on. Also SingaLam was /is a mixed language and had a substantial base of Tamil words and it is admitted by the Sinhalese writers and researchers themselves for example Lionel Sarath. So, the prevailing thought at the time was it was one of the languages of the heritage of the South.. There were also many mixed marriages. Then, the scenario changed..!
The above stanza by Barathithaasan was from memory. I hope no mistakes. I did not check up the other sweet poet Kavimani Thesika Vinaayagam Pillai.
You think there is sufficient evidence to make out a case to say that that was the usage of the time. All these poets are "maRumalarchi kavinyarkaL". and they wanted to go by the popular and simple language that the common man can at once understand without having to look at the dictionary.
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§À¡Â¨¼ó¾Ð.