Tamil roots of sanskrit words

Now all historians of world talk about tamil and world history.

Indians talk about sanskrit. No longer they can talk about that.

But indian tamil pandits talk about sanskrit derived words of tamil.
They want to purify tamil,thinking that sanskrit is alien from tamil.

Sanskrit is evolved from tamil. Sanskrit words roots are in tamil.

Tamil pandits classify some words having sound like sanskrit as sanskrit words. For example,

ISHtam,KaSHtam,KuSHtam,NaSHtam,PuSHpam, PaSHpam.

These words are not in literary sanskrit is apparent truth. Ask any sanskrity pandit.

Ishtam-Ittam-idu+am- idu means oneway drop,oneway thinking,persons own view.

Kashtam-kattam-kadu+am, kadu means show restriction,disapproval,angry- like in a square -restricted border,an unrelieved pain

Nashtam- Nattam-natu- means once you pierce it,it should not be taken out - once you do it you can not get return.

Kushtam-kuttam-kudu-kuttai- short - when body elements are short kushtam happens.

Pushpam-putpam-pudu-pidu- take out (Sanskrit word is there)

Paspam-patpam-padu- near floor- shorten - empty

Sometimes tamil pandits boastfully tell that all tamil words changed purposefully as sanskrit words.

Kumbakonam- kudamooku
Kabisthalam-Kurangaduthurai
Mayuram-Mayiladuthurai
Vedharnyam-Maraikadu
Mirugam-Vilangu

Right hand words are tamil as according to tamilpandits.

Kumbakonam-Kumbam+konam- Kumi+am+konam-kuvi+kone-kuvi+ucchi

Kabistalam- kavi+talam-Kavvi+talam- Kavvi a name of monkey based on its mouth. Note patti for Nai(dog), arima for singam(lion)

Mayuram- mayur+am, mai+Oori+am- colour pickled(colour mixed) an another name for mayil

Vedharnyam-vedham+aranyam-veithal+am+aranyam- 'Koorai veithal-kuraiyal maraithal, araniyam-aran- border or kadu was border in olden days.

mirugam- miru+kam- miru-miratchi-payam+angry feeling.

Some tamil words slightly turned and sound like sanskrit. They are not sanskrit words. But tamil pandits say these are sanskrit words.

Pati-pti-Prathi

Payanam-pyanam-prayanam

Agathuman-Aathuman- Athma

Vinnavam-vainavam-vaishnavam

Karkannan-karukannan-kruknan-krushnan

Paraman-piraman-Prahmman

Paramanar- piramanar-Brahminar

I am not criticising tamil pandits. But they have to understand the nature and rationality in the dialects and do best their search in language.

(will be continued)

f.s.gandhi

Some words of tamil day today use are found in sanskrit. When these words are seen, tamil pandits get inferiority complex and instead of finding out that root they term this as sanskrit derived words.

Thulaparam-thulai+param= weigh balance+weight

Darshan- theriyanam-therisanam -darshan

kaariyam- karumam-karmam-kariyam-kaariyam

pasu- pas in sanskrit means rope. All think cow is controlled through pas so pasu. But pas is from pai-pasai-pasu a tamil root.Pai is the root for pachai and pal(milk)

Shakshi- satchi(santru)- satshat is very often used in stories written by sanskrit influenced writers

Visumbu- visuvam

palam- valam

dayai- thalarvu-thayavu

prachanai-problem- prazhchanai

Sigichai- Sikizhchai- Tamils pandits use 'panduvam' for sigichai thinking that sigichai is sanskrit word.

vishayam- vidayam

osti- uyarthi-osaththi-osti

(will be continued)

f.s.gandhi

(continuation)

Some roots of sanskrit words.

Juram(fever)- suram=sur+am-suru+am. 'surunguthal due to heat'

suraththal,suranduthal,suriyan are from this root.

Pashana- pasanam- paichanam- pai is the root.

nirupanam- niruvuthal, niru/uru is the root.

patcham-pakkam

elakkam,elakkiam- elatcham,elatchiam

giri-kiri-kuri means malai. kurichi,kuravar has same root.

Suththam- suthai+am - Suthai a name for 'sunnambu'(white/clean).
Asuththam might have evolved in sanskrit since equivalent opposite word forming might be difficult since sanskrit is artificial language.

For example, abaram-baram-param-varam(since 'v' is not in sanskrit) -varai+am, varai(border),Compare varayarai & var(belt).

Therefore abaram(-ve) means borderless-excellent in meaning.

Not only words.Sanskrit Grammar also is from tamil. We can conclude sanskrit is the northern replica of tamil. Sanskrit vedic religion is tamil adapted religion.

Inthran is eulogized in vedhas.

Inthran/varunan= inththu=im+th+u- Im and U are suttu words specified the water/cold water of river. varunan=vari(alai) again a name for water flowing/sea.

The same inththran was god of masses when tamils turned agriculturists. The same inththran was turned sivan later.

The god of water based/agriculturists was inththran. That is why
some of the castes of tamilnadu called themselves inthrakula katthiriyar(Shatriyar) and inththrakula vellalar.

Karikalan celebrated 'inththra vizha' in kallanai. Silapathikaram talks about inthra vizha.

Sanskrit adapted this caste system/ideology.

Sindhu the river name means the same cold water flowing.

Kangai,the river name is formed with the root 'kankai' which means light heat.

If the above concept is followed a significant breakthrough in tamil-sanskrit combination will be invented and the myth that sanskrit is all in india would be broken into pieces.

f.s.gandhi

Dear friends, :)

Sanskrit is called ‘DEVA BASHA’ in India.

It is actually true. Sanskrit slogans are used / insisted in pujas.

Just like Arabic & Hebrew, Sanskrit also adopted God’s name for every word used while worshipping.

You can observe this in many of Sanskrit words forming.

‘Piram’ is the root for most of the words of slokas in Sanskrit irrespective of the meaning of the word.

Just like ‘Al’ is added in Arabic words and ‘Allae’ in Hebrew words the word ‘Piram’ is added to Sanskrit words.

Tamil differs from this. But ‘Piram’ is from tamil ‘param’- which specifies ‘PARAMPORUL’ or God.

This itself shows from tamil –Prakirutham-samaskirutham was formulated for the sake of God’s prayers. The great cholas who were tamils accepted Sanskrit because of this fact.

Let us examine some of the words.

Pirakadanam- ‘Vilamparam’ – Param + kadanam – Kadanam – ‘Kadantha thanmai’ – means ‘Overtaking god’s popularity’.

Pirakasam- Param + Kasam – Kasam – ‘Lightening like Pon Kasu’- means lightening

Prakiruthi- Param + karu + e - means ‘moolam’

Pirasankam- Param +Sam+ Am—Addressing about god in front of masses

Pirasandam – Param + chandai (Chandam) – means ‘Kodumai or Kadumai’

Pirasavam- Param + Chavam – Chavam means ‘marupaduthal’ – Change – just like Pinam from ‘Pinangu’ base. Giving child birth is change in situation.

Pirasannam- Param + Channam- Channam means ‘Nunniya’ – ‘Alagiya’. ‘Jannal’ a word for window is not portugese origin as tamil pandits say. It is tamil word only.
Pirasannam means ‘shown clearly’

Pirasatham – Param + satham. Satham is from ‘sathu’ root which means ‘soft’. Tamils tell ‘Choru’ is tamil and 'satham' is sanskrit’- There is no 'satham' in Sanskrit. God’s satham is ‘Pirachatham’.

Pirasapathi- Param + Arasu + athi + pathi - This is the name for God ‘Piraman’

Readers are welcome to add more in this way. (will be continued later)

f.s.gandhi

Dear friends, :)

(Continuation of Param oriented sanskrit words)

Pracharam – Param + charam - Charam has root as ‘Charu’ – means ‘messages about god’ equivalent to ‘Chorpozhivu’

Prachiththam - Param + Chiththam - ‘Kadavulin velippadu’ - ‘arivippu’

Prachinam – Param + Chinam – ‘ a question asked against god’ – vinaa / Kaelvi

Prasuram – Param + saram – Praising of god – later to mean ‘pathippithal’

Prajai – Param + kudisai – parakusai – pirausai – Prajai – citizen / kudimakan.

Piranayam – Param + Nayam - Anbu – kind

Piranavam- Param + Avam – about god – kadavulaip patri – to specify ‘Oom’

Pirathatchinam – Param + Thattu + enai - Thattukku enaiyaka – Thatchinai given to god / Prokithar. Check ‘Thatchina Poomi’ - flat like structure. Check ‘Anka prithatchinam’

Pirathamam – Param + Amam – Amam here is equivalent to ‘Amar’ – means ‘ Muthanmai.

FSGV!
whatever you are saying here are quite revolutionary to my mind. I am amazed by these. Can you explain the etimology nehind this. Also can you provide historical evidences that support this hitherto unexplored line of thinking?
Thanks and congrats.

Dear Mr. Jaiganes, :)

In world history a significant breakthrough has been done by Mr.Maxmuller who identified ‘Indo – Europiean Group of languages’ in 19th century.

His strong belief is man movement in history can be identified through language analysis.

He has done, found out certain truth but ended with wrong conclusion. The thing is he has not analysed tamil / other Dravidian group / North Indian tribal languages.

Importantly north Indian tribal languages are nothing but tamil.

Whenever Indian history studies made Sanskrit is made forefront as if it exposes all Indian hereditary which is a wrong theory. It is 1800 years old unspoken language created only for Hothas / knowledge preservation purposes.

In this case we have to analyse which culture / language influenced this Sanskrit. That will bring you great light to the history.

Thevanayap pavanar started his career as English teacher went on reading English formation and at last he found tamil was the origin for all the languages in the world. He started the roots formation guided by Maxmuller / Galduwell.

My approach is based on that. Many books influenced this. I had an opportunity in my school days to study about various history books. If you want the listing it won’t complete the purpose.

All other Indian languages are phonetically transformed structure / dialects of tamil is real truth.

Knan paranchu / parayu (Malayalam) Na cheppinadu (telugu) which are Shrinkage of Naan parainthathu / Naan cheppiyathu.

Doorvaja Banthgae (Hindi) ‘Theruvasal poththunga’ (tamil)- ‘Kathava Moodunga’ (another dialect)

Doorvaja Kolagae (Hindi) ‘Theruvasal Thoranga’ (tamil) ‘ Kathava Thiranga’ (another dialect)

Yahang Aav (Hindi) ‘Engae Vaa’ (tamil)

Kithap patna(Hindi) 'Puththakam padi'

My purpose is to intiate this vision to masses. People will find out lot of things / truths behind it (including the language pandits.)

f.s.gandhi

Dear friends, :)

'Param' root -Sanskrit words (continuation)

Param is pronounced as ‘P’ram / Piram in Sanskrit.

Prathapam – Param + Thapam – Thapam has root in ‘Thavu’ – Thaavam – Thapam & Thavaram are old words When man lived in forests and Thaavam means forest fire.

Prathapam means uncontrollable courage like fire.

Prathanam- Param +Thanam – Thanam specifies place. Than – Thaan – is the root. Thaniyam is another word from this root. Prathanam means ‘Muthal edam’

Prathani – Param + Thani – First person – ‘Muthanmaiyanavar’

Prathisi – Param + Thisai – Gods’ place / direction – means ‘West’.

Prathesam- Param + Theyam – Theyam – Thesam.- Gods’ place – People’s place was called in that way.

Prapantham- Param + Pantham – Pantham means ‘varisai’ / Ozungu / relation – Note panthi specifies the same meaning. Prapantham means ‘Nool varisai’

Praphaharan- Param + Akaran – Akaran means ‘Thodakka manavan’ like tamil first alphabet ‘A’

Prapalam – ‘ Valiyulla’ / pukazulla- Param +palam- palam is from ‘valam’ to specify ‘valimai’

Prabu – Param- Paramu- Pramu- Prabu

Prapavam- Famous / Pukazh - Param + Avam – Avam is from ‘avai’

Prapuththan – yount intelligent man – Param + paththan - Paththan is from ‘paththai’ means ‘containing lot of ‘. Paththan – who interconnect / create arts. Paththathi – ‘neri nool’

Pramachariyam – Param +Chaariyam – ‘Kadavulaich chaarntha’ - Belonging to god – unmarried / not belonging to this world life.

(will be continued later )

India has produced the two Worlds Topmost languages, and both are from same origin, but expressing it differently.

From same base, both can claim to be the origin, but both are same and equally different.

You say in Abroad, people do not accept Sanskrit's Antiquity, I DONot know which of the Universities you are talking about, and are they Scholars of Repute and Presented in ACADamics.

Few Thinkers spread this stories in India and Abroad, but nothing is accepted by any Universities, and are worth getting few claps in meetings.

No need to be any bad feelings on either Languages, and both are from India and both make us proud, and expressing opinions without proofs only would put Tamils at a disadvantage.
MosesMohammedSolomon

Dear Thiru Solomon, :)

Tamil started with suttu oligal / vowels.That is a,e,u . ‘a,e,i,o,u’ are vowels as you know by English. These will have a, aa, e, ee, u, uu, o, oo,i apart from ae, aae, av, ah sounds which were present only in world ancient languages. In this ‘av’ and ‘ah’ sounds were predominantly in ancient languages.

All suttu oligal have meaning only in tamil not in any other language of world.

These suttu oligal formed extension in words.

Expanded words shrinked and tilted in its form formulating new dialects / new languages.

These shrinked words don’t have vowels at the beginning. But have consonants of later origin.

Tamil only can claim the root words since most of the Sanskrit words never start with vowels.

For example : Eravu – Raththiri

Eravu has ‘Iru’ root . This root formed the words ‘erumpu, irul, Irukku, Iruppu etc.

Tamil consonant starting words also have root in vowel starting words.

‘Sanku’ – sam+ku - ‘Sam’ is from ‘Am’ which formulated the word ‘ambalam’ where Am and sam has same meaning ‘club’.

You talked about common origin. If there is a common origin where is the common origin ? No symptoms of common origin prevalent in India.

You must understand Tamil history is related to world history. Hence talking tamil history shall not mean talking against any language / race.

f.s.gandhi

Dear friends, :)


‘Okku’ is a old tamil word means ‘Thani’. Since a replica of something becoming the same of a thing this ‘okku’ turned in meaning as ‘Pontra, ontrana’.

The same okku is used in telugu as ‘Okkati’.

‘Kokku OKKA kompum paruvaththu’- kural use this word.

This okka turned as ok – ak – aak (ontru) in Sanskrit.

Since Sanskrit is ‘DEVA BASHA’ this ‘aak’ is taken in many words of Sanskrit as root.

‘God is one’ is the principle in any religion. Other gods are specified as ‘Thoothuvar’ in Christin / muslim religion and ‘Avathaar’ in Hindu / Inthu religion.

Hence this ‘AAK’ specifies god’s nature and is root of many words like ‘param’ in Sanskrit.

Observe the following words.

Aaka kundalan – Okka + kundavan = Palaraman was called in this name.

Aaka Chakrathipathi – Okka + Chakkaram + Athi + pathi = Arasan

Aaka thandi – Okka + Thandam = Sanniyasi / godman

Aaka Thanthan – Okka + Thantham (elephant) – Vinayakar / pillaiyar / Lor Ganesh

Aaka pokam – Okka + Pokuthal / spend – ‘Thani yaka anupavi’ – Enjoy singularly.

Readers are welcome to contribute.

f.s.gandhi

Dear Friends, :)

'Aek'(okku) oriented sanskrit words (continuation)

Aeka vachanam - Orumai (without respect) - cursing god

Aeka vadam - Oru kayiru - one rope used to pull God's charriot.

Aeka vanai – Aek + Aanai = God’s command is same for all people

Aekan – Kadavul

Aekanki – Aek + Ankam = A man who adapted God. ‘Thuravi’

Aekaatchi – Aek + Kaatchi – Otraik kannan (a man of one eye – here ‘Sukiran’ God.

Aekaandam – Aek + Andam (ulakam) = God’s place

Aekaantham – Aek + kaantham = Kaantham is from Kantham – Pillar – here like pillar a place where god / person lives discretely.

Aekopiththal – Aek + Oppuviththal = Ontru cheruthal

* deleted *

Solomon, please don't post the same text all over the place. It make discussion difficult. Once is enough.

Pls continue here: http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewt...=147020#147020

Dear solomon,

We tell you that there is no common origin for tamil and sanskrit and sanskrit is an offshoot of tamil.

The same Maxmuller words about language history has been revealed to you in the topic 'Tamil is elder to sanskrit. Your words seems to be opposing his views.

Our view is what Maxmuller followed through languages' words is correct and his interpretation was wrong since he neglected to get into or didnot have enough days in his life get into the dravidian group or tamil. The last mindset of Maxmuller is reveled by Galduwell which I noted you in 'Tamil is elder to sanskrit' thread.

Why people will hate if sanskrit literature really good for Indian people ?

You specify common enemies are Europeans and they spread false message.You and your views of your forefathers for the past 150 years believed Aryan theory.

You always confuse and mix the so called Brahmins who are identified as caste now with Aryans which is not true and this has been revealed in 'tamil..' thread.

You seems to be based on RSS ideology which neither have evidances nor have proof but it is a belief.

Historieans must have outlook and vision based on evidances and not on beliefs and we have to scroll through all the persons having some positive elements of proof.

Kindly do not lambast the shortcomings of yesteryear scholars. Derive always some positive elements if presented by scholars.

f.s.gandhi

From MosesMohammedSplomon:

FSG- I want you to look at the historical facts and not on wishful thinkings. Aryan Invasion was brought in By Maxmuller, Caldwell etc., and that is because they want to split Indians.

I have facts and go by International consenses of Dating of Literature and where as you Spread false assumptions.

Sanskrit Literature has its good as much as Tamil, and We donot have One Pre Sanskrit Tamil work.

Breaking of words are not Linguistc Science to fullness, An example- Computer is a Pukka TaMIL word- what a computer does- It Processes the Date given. i.e.,
Canthial of Puhithiya Tharavukal- which becaome Cani-Puhu-Tharvu as Computer'; Kanini or Kanipori is not that suitable.

We know this is not a right interpretation, but anybody can publish and another put it in Net and this will only put Indians as People-meaninglessly split and claim ubsurd roots and waste time.

Archeology is the best to guide and based on Stone Inscriptions the Tholkappiyam can be never dated earlier than 200-150 BCE, and first Tamil inscriptions are done after Samane North Indians wrote it in their scripts- the Tamil words, Tamil did not have previous scripts, atleast in pre-500 years prior to 500 BCE, Indus Seals, if you cut the Missionaries, 50% read it as Sanskrit and 50% as Proto-Tamil, but with morethan 4000 types of Pictures, they are more Picotorial than Scriptal.

Look at facts . India and Indian Culture extended from Celon to Iran, with both Tamil and Sanskrit , with Sanskrit on the insistence of Clergy becoming a Grammatical language, giving way to Pali and Prakrits. We have Pali Books telling Vedic/Ramayan/Mahabaat stories and these books have gone to neibouring countries in 250BCE, Asokan periods, now you bluff, no Vedas till 100 BCE, would be childish.
RSS is not a bad word thought I have no connection with it or accept its ideologies, its much better than Dravidians Parties of Tamilnadu, who now follow Varnasramadharma of putting Sons and Grandsons in all Posts.
Go by facts without Prejudices and accept truths.
MosesMohammadSolomon

Dear solomon,

You wanted references and I gave them. All the owners of books are not wishful thinkers they provide lot of archeological and literary proofs to show that. Due to its length I could not elaborate it.

Words are main source of history telling and all the historians follow this.

You made funny of words separation. It has some concept supported by archelogical findings. Grammatical works shows clear picture of language formation and their history.

Comtemporary meaning and based on suttu olikal, Oru porul kilavikal supported by inscriptions are followed in language reserch.

You accept in one way and reject in another way seems to be contradictory in your views.

Your dating of panini doesn't have any proof. The first inscription of sanskrit language is during 8 the century A.D that too during pallava period and nowhere in India Sanskrit inscriptions found is the reality.

You talked about sanskrit influence present now in India and other countries. Sanskrit has latest origin and spread during radical change in vaishnava. Since it is latest its presence there. You know before 50 years tamil wrote in manipiravalam. Almost tamil extinct. But revived after sankam findings. It doesnot mean sanskrit is earlier is our point. Sanskrit literature contains tamil thoughts and is the offshoot of tamil is our arguement.

During Nayakkar period the latest kings before Bristish Telugu was used.Do you mean telugu is earlier ? British ruled India and the influence of English is there in India. Do you mean English is earlier?

Sindhu valley script never contains sanskrit words is the truth. After all sanskrit words words are shrinked form of tamil. A fully refained tamil nothing shrinked form of words are observed in sindhu valley and all world historians accept that no vedhic influence in sindhu valley. You are redirecting the views.

And in language also Paly-pragrid-sanskrit is the evolution. You redirecting this as Maxmuller way that sanskrit-pragrid-Paly which proved wrong by historians.

In someway you manage to get a place for sanskrit with false findings. It wont stand longterm base.

f.s.gandhi

A lot of assumptions you have posted there! Never mind! But just to punture a gapping hole in your thought! Refering to what you said:

Quote:

---

Sanskrit Literature has its good as much as Tamil, and We donot have One Pre Sanskrit Tamil work.

---

Ashtadyayi fame, Panini of 400BCE did not name Sanskrit (or samksrut, samskrit - or whatever that may be its name) as a language he is talking about.

For what language did Panini write grammer for, then? Some Prakirts? When was the "Samskrit" came into being as a name for a language??

All this point just to one thing. Sanskrit was non-existence prior to the 2nd Centure CE - when Valmiki Ramayana was written!

The rest of your lament is noted!

I request you to kindly read my poing in Tamil Elder forum in reply to your Lies.

Carbon 14 dating started only in 20th Cen middle and you say Saraswathi Mahal has 19th Cen test proofs- I leave you with these statements.

Now when you donot have facts, then you start meaningless talks calling RSS views,
-When Sunami attacked Tamilnadu, the first to come resque was RSS and as per Site Informations - One Third of the Total affected Dead Bodies were disposed by RSS Sevaks, the pity is when most of the affected is either Tourists at Spas or Kuppam people, but the People who visited as Tourists and Devotions to Velankanni Temple- 2000 were Dead, where as the SANTHOME Archbishop made another statement of SUNAMI- AS Thomas tomb remained in Mylapur, the place was not affected. And all our Tamil Dravidan TVs took Pain not to show RSS Sevaks, whereas watching NDTV or Aajtak etc., proved all this.

When M.Deivanayagam took the dubious researches of KA.SU.Pillai, MaraimalaiAdigal and others and submiited and received a PHD, saying Entire Tamil Literature- Tirukural, Paripadal, KAlithogai. Thirumurugatrupadai ,Saiva sithanthangal etc., are influenced rather Valluvar copied Bible and all were developed later under Bible infleunce by Thomas' alleged visit. His books had blessings of all major churches, rather Mylapur Archbishop funded them, and I quote Deivanayagam in his first book- Tiruvalluvar Christhuvara?, which had an Aninthurai by Mu.Karunanithi and released by Anbalagan if I remember correct in 1969..
"Valluvar KAPPIYADITHAR ENAK kOOR ENTHATH tAMILANUM MUNVARA MATTAN, ANAL vIRUPPU Veruppu indri Aybavargal thangal Aayvin mudivil Varum karuthugalai veliyida pinvanginal avargal unmai aiyvalargal allar- Pa 131. "
" Christhuvamagihiya Malaiil irunthu Edukkappatta Aramagia Karungal Tamilagiya Gangayil .... Page- 173'
And his gang has received 5 or 6 phd, mphil etc., where as now we know the above statements are Lies to the core. Devaneyan's quotations have been used his final work, Phd Thesis to attack the Tamil's Aborgins.
This research has been going on from Late 50s, and Devaneyan did not Utter a single word to my Knowledge against this Project.
Friends, it is an RSS GROUP maintain a WEBSITE- www.hamsa.organd gives the total news on the frauds of the Thomas visit humbugs., and FSG now you quote this Gentleman to couch your misleading claims.
Almost entire work of Scholars of 20th Cen, now needs to be rejected as Sangam Period is now dated to end around 30-20BCE, and Kalapirar rule in 1st and 2ndCen, and Pallavas coming in around 190CE.
Quoting Obsolete books is of no use.

You were always claiming having dating done for Tamil & Sanskrit literatures and please give those here or to all the Encyclopedias- as Britanica, americana, CHambers, Cromptons etc.,

Now Tell me the names of Universities that follow, which you claim follow and research and YOUr misleading claims.

Please explains your views with proofs instead of trying to meaninglessly Punctur my arguments, Let facts come in open and not false claims.
MosesMohammedSolomon

Dear Solomon, :)

I stand by my views. Saraswathi Mahal libruary is still there in Thanjavur.

The question is here about sanskrit antiquity. You seems to be talking other issues which is not necessary now.

You kindly talk your views under the heading 'Tamil is elder to sanskrit' topic.

Prove that sanskrit is elder. You can't do it. You don't have proof.

Kindly note adichanallur findings recently in 'THE HINDU' paper. The earlier script of tamil dated through carbon dating back to 500 B.C.

Dont divert the topic.

f.s.gandhi

Quote:

---

When M.Deivanayagam took the ...... (snipped)
...... (snipped)

Devaneyan's quotations have been used his final work, Phd Thesis to attack the Tamil's Aborgins. .... (snipped)

---

Solomon, you don't confuse the two persons, M. Deivanayagam and G. Devaneya Pavanar.

Pavanar did not write any book like 'Thiruvalluvar Christavara?".

But if Christians like M. Deivanayagam, wish to claim that Thiruvalluvar was as Christian - and belongs to the Christians, please let them have him. There are claims that Valluvar was a Jain, Buddhist, Muslim, Vedic Brahmin etc etc. Good!

It just shows that the man Valluvar is being admired by everyone, and once they read the little book of his, The Kural, they fall madly in love with him.

Ha! Valluvar must be one 'helluva' handsome guy.!

This is the thread that I opened to reveal tamil roots of sanskrit words.

So we shall discuss the issue now going on in 'Tamil is elder to sanskrit' thread.

I expect co-operation from Mr. Solomon.

I request Mr.Idiappam also to put your thought on 'Tamil is elder to sanskrit' thread to avoid parallel discussion.

We shall discuss only word roots in this session.

Thanking you,

f.s.gandhi

Thiru F.S. Gandhi Vandayar

What does Charam in ThirukkOnech'charam' mean? Does it mean kOyil?

Would you be more clear about ur defintion for the word 'Sinthu?'

You have pointed out the word 'am.' Is 'am' some sort of prefix or suffix? as in am+A? am+pu, 'am'irtham, ampalam, amapal, ampaaram, ampaal, ampAL, ampi, ammam.
A Thamizh dictionary say am = azhagu, neer, megham, oru saariyai. What is a 'saariyai?' What is the importance of this word am?

You said most of the sanskirit used terms in the Thamizh temples come from Thamizh roots.
Kumbabishekam is called as kudamuzhukku. Does kumabishekam come from a Thamizh root word? (kumba abishekam?). Where does the word Abishekam come from? If its not Thamizh, what is the equivalent Thamizh form of that word?

nanRi
paNhivu

After a long time I am glad to watch your postings. Welcome back Thiru Nedunchezhian. :!:

Aaram-saaram-saram is the evolution word saram. Saram means ‘Maalai’. Thiri + kone + Maalai = Thirikonemaalai turned thrikonemalai. Here Thiri = moontru / three.

The place in triangular point is Thirikonemalai. Thiri is tamil word and it is from Thiripu. I have written about that in ‘Amateur Etymology’ column. Maalai also means ‘Aran’ Which is the root of Araniyam.(means anything protects)

I have talked about ‘Inthu’ in ‘tamil is elder to Sanskrit column’.Kindly go through that.One of the meaning of Inthu is ‘Mathi’- arivu. Inthu-sinthu-sinthai came in this way.

Compare ‘Sinthanaith thuli’ . Inthu means also ‘cool water’. When cool water from Himalayan icecap came (sinthi varuthal) naturally the river was called sinthu.

‘Am’ is called root. Do not put it in your grammar mind. Roots are compared in all the languages for their comtemporary meaning. The words of having same root will have common meaning.

At the same time ‘Am’ in ‘Amarvu’, Amaithi & ambalam will have different meaning and ‘Am’ in Amma,Amutham & ampal because historic perspective also is to be taken care of in defining the root words.

Root words in colloquial language is natural and they formulate their own pattern. Words are caught up with one root of common meaning is the reality.

‘Am’ was ‘suttu oli’ when man created first his own word to specify water. It turned ‘amadu’ to specify Am+adu , a place near water / sea. You can club lot of words in this ‘Am’ root. ‘Sariyai’ means a word which is oriented to something (Charpu) and it can be prefix as in ‘Amadu’ and suffix in Kutram (Kutru + am).

I plan to write about the roots ‘ava,apa,avam,apam’ in this column as I earlier wrote about certain Sanskrit words formation in this column after sometime.

Now we look into the word 'Abisehkam" Kumbam is synonym of Kudam and both are tamil words. Abi + Dekam. ‘Avi’ in tamil means things. In ancient days it meant ‘choru’. Later after rituals came into being ‘Avi’ specified ‘Velvipporul’ which are eatables especially. Avi turned abi. Dekam has root in ‘Okku-okam-Ekkam-Eekam’ to specify single (thanitha) / Muzhumaiyana / body especially the body of God.

When body of god is fully put into ritual bath with things of human intake it is called ‘Abidekam’ / Abishekam.

Explore more Thiru. Nedunchezhian. :!: No restriction of Grammar- After all grammars are formulated by us. Historical and natural evolution of words should be observed.

f.s.gandhi

nanRi Thiru F.S.Gandhi Vandayar

I would like to know if using words like Abidekam and Kumbabidekam seem approrpiate and equivalent to the words Kudamuzhukku and anything alternative to Abidekam. It is perhaps the sanskiritizng of the Thamizh words that have made Thamizh people to think Thamizh words are Sanskirit. Even now most of the people, even in the media such as TVs, Radios and Newspapers say 'pooja' instead of 'poosai.'

There has been some problem with the word 'kONham.' Apparently a Thamizh Teacher I know, refuses that its Thamizh and point reference to this Dictionary released by Saiva Siththanthak Kazhagam and he say its not Thamizh and the word 'kONham' is Sanskirit. Can you provide more insight into the root of the word 'kONham?'

Are there any synonyms for the word 'kONham' which mean angle.

kONham is also used in the saying like 'muthat kONham, muttrum kONham' in that saying does kONham stand for curve line? or angular shape?

We are having a discussion about the Thamizh Dragon yALi (or yAzhi?) under the 'Is Tamil derived from Sanskirit?' topic. Please participate.

nanRi, PaNhivu

Dear Thiru Nedunchezhian,

Forget about Tamil pandits. In my postings I have revealed their restrictive thinking. They have closed mind and unneccessarily they will expect exact view which are not at all required to derive something.

There won't be any difference with valaivu / Konam purely in literary sense. For mathematical purposes you can differentiate exactly the words.

'Ko' is 'suttu oli' to specify 'Uchchi' top. King was called as Ko. Kone also evolved from this root to specify King. 'Konam' evolved to specify the sharp edge or top point when two lines cross in certain angle. When two straight line turn (valaivu) someway to cross, the word 'Konal' is used. Deviating may be in line deviating in circular path or line itself bend circularly.

Always tamil pandits compare their language with sanskrit which is wrong. For example take miruthangam. Mathangam was used in tamil. Tamil pandits will say Mathangam turned miruthangam with Miru added just like methu turned miruthu. I say melithu - merithu- miruthu is the correct evolution.

'Koni' also specify this 'valaivu' and flexibility.

Kudamuzhukku is synonym to Kumpabhishekam.

Sanskrit was evolved from paly and prakrid which were offshoots of tamil before 4000 years back. So all sankrit words only evolved from tamil roots. Later phonetically changed / shriked tamil words seems to be sanskrit words.

f.s.gandhi

Beside all of these religious influences and the belief in supreme being, the current words in use in Thamizh which specify supreme being, such as Iraivan, KadavuL, theivam, Bagavan, are they of Thamizh origin? I have recently read an article in which a Thamizh scholar argued that the word 'Iraivan' indicated King and not Supreme being (GOD). Moreover, the Thamizh Scholar said that 'Iraivan' is a better usage of Thamizh than the word 'Arasan.'

Not only that, the word Theivam is also found in ThirukkuraL in kural such as:
"Theivaththal aakathu eninum muyatsithan
meivaruththak kUli tharum"

Did ThiruvaLLuvar, really said that kuraL? or was it one of the inserted kural? What did Thiruvalluvar meant by Theivam? The word, Theivam is it Thamizh?

The Word Bagavan is believed to have come in usage in the latter centuries. Although the first ThirukkuraL says, "Bagavan"

"Akara muthala ezhuththellam aAthi
bagavan muthattae ulagu"

In which some Thamizh scholars says that bagavan may have been mistook for the word 'bagalan' which meant 'sooriyan.' If so then how about the other kurals under the first chapter 'praising of the supreme being?'

Which other chapters were inserted into ThirukkuraL? What was the original name of Thiruvalluvar? What was the original name of Illango adigaL?

Does Thamizh have a Golden Mean, like the one Aristrotle found for the Western Philosophy? Are words categorized or can be categorized into being different and meaning different in accord with Golden Mean in Thamizh?

nanRi, paNhivu

//Aaram-saaram-saram is the evolution word saram. Saram means ‘Maalai’. Thiri + kone + Maalai = Thirikonemaalai turned thrikonemalai. Here Thiri = moontru / three. //

The word 'three' in English, did it come from a Latin or Greek root, which came from a Thamizh(Thiri) root?


nanRi, paNhivu

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Originally Posted by solomon

From MosesMohammedSplomon:

FSG- I want you to look at the historical facts and not on wishful thinkings. Aryan Invasion was brought in By Maxmuller, Caldwell etc., and that is because they want to split Indians.

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When were the Indians united??? What is the caste system the the Rig Veda prescribed all about?? Is it not about spliting Indians??

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I have facts and go by International consenses of Dating of Literature and where as you Spread false assumptions.

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Of course, of course! Cook up more 'facts' and go by 'International' consenses. Give more unknown names and unknown facts, and say 'Universities' support them.

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Sanskrit Literature has its good as much as Tamil,

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Sanskrit has more filth than good! I just don't want to flood the Hub with those filth - I will if you insist on lying. We have all the filith from the Rig Veda to Ramayana to Mahabharata to Manu Smriti to KamaSutra. Do you want me to post them - I am sure the Admin won't like it - they are already having a bad time keeping the peace here!

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and We do not have One Pre Sanskrit Tamil work.

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That is a blatant lie. And solomon, it does make to happy if Sanskrit is Older right??

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We know this is not a right interpretation, but anybody can publish and another put it in Net and this will only put Indians as People-meaninglessly split and claim ubsurd roots and waste time.

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Looks like you are talking through your a.. If you can exhibit some of your 'linguistic' prowess in proving that the Sanskrit words named here are indeed of Sanskritc orgin - Please do. Else stay away from commenting on roots of words. YOu lack the skill.

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Archeology is the best to guide and based on Stone Inscriptions the Tholkappiyam can be never dated earlier than 200-150 BCE,

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Why can't it be??

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and first Tamil inscriptions are done after Samane North Indians wrote it in their scripts- the Tamil words, Tamil did not have previous scripts, atleast in pre-500 years prior to 500 BCE, Indus Seals, if you cut the Missionaries, 50% read it as Sanskrit and 50% as Proto-Tamil, but with morethan 4000 types of Pictures, they are more Picotorial than Scriptal.

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What has the scripts got to do with the Language. Scripts can be changed anytime. There was no Devanagari Script for Sanskrit until fairly recently. Sanskrit had never a sricpt of its own. It was written in the regional scripts - Telegu, Gujarati, Tamil (Grantha), Bengali, etc.

Then by your logic, Sanskrit is just as old as Devanagari Script - about 800 years old.

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with Sanskrit on the insistence of Clergy becoming a Grammatical language, giving way to Pali and Prakrits.

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No, it is the other way round - Pali, Prakrits and the Dravidian Lanauges gave birth to Sanskrit.

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We have Pali Books telling Vedic/Ramayan/Mahabaat stories and these books have gone to neibouring countries in 250BCE, Asokan periods, now you bluff, no Vedas till 100 BCE, would be childish.

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That's nonsense!

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RSS is not a bad word thought I have no connection with it or accept its ideologies, its much better than Dravidians Parties of Tamilnadu, who now follow Varnasramadharma of putting Sons and Grandsons in all Posts.

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YOu affiliation is clear -- you are a Vedic stooge, an anti-Tamil and you are fast becoming an anti-Idiappam. Take care my boy.

Dear Thiru Nedunchezhian,

Eventhough theivam / eraivan have meaning as king all forefathers / the death people were worshipped for remembrance of their heroic deeds which would induce youngers to excell well in life. Later they were worshipped in "Nadukal vazhipadu". Tamils of Thiruvalluvar days had the belief that their ancestors would protect them in their hardships.

Apart from "Nadugal worship" there were natural god worshippers.
Inthiran(marutha nilam), Varunan (sea land),Mayon(now thirumal), Kotravai, Murugan were gods of 5 lands of tamil culture. I have already expressed this in "Tamil is elder to Sanskrit" column quoting (1250 BCE) Tholkappiam.

"Meen" word created from "Min" root. Things which had "Minnuthal" tendency was named as meen. Vinmeen is one of that word. And since tamil invented "marakkalam" they got stronghold of sea roots and they were called "thiraiyar". Thirai means "alai". You can observe in all meditaranean sea languages this word 'meen' introduced by tamils. Kindly visit "Some tamil words in world languages" column.

For 'three' evolution kindly visit 'Amateur etymology' column in English literature.

I have already talked about the word "Pakavan"- in "thinamum oru vaarththai" column. Pakavu means 'olirvu'. Pakattu is from this root turned pattu - a silk saree. Pakavan specifies 'Suriyan" a natural god of tamils. The earth is based on Pakavan. That is why valluvar talks about that. Suriyan in turn is tamil word from root 'Sur'. Suram,suraththal are from this root.

Dear Nedunchezhian, due to Atheist movement in tamilNadu this kind of queries came into your mind. Actually during valluvar time tamils worshipped natural gods. We have to take all the meaning of kurals in that perspective only. Not vedhic idol worship pattern.
Infact the Idol worship came into being later by the influence of tamil natural gods worshipping.

f.s.gandhi

Thank you :!: Thiru. Idiappam for revealing the bogus views of Soloman :!:

Readers shall observe his repeated bluffs. :) Sanskrit language won't have any roots since it is an artificial language. Root words combined with archeology are the main source in interpreting the history.

After Piram & Ekam the godly artificial Sankrit has most of the words from roots ava,aba which also found interchangeable with each other. Words based on ‘Ava’ are lesser than the words from ‘aba’ in Sanskrit. ‘Ava’ is tamil origin since ‘Va’ sound used at the beginning of words is found negligible in north Indian languages.

Ava (Av) is ‘suttu oli’ in tamil – one of the primary communication used in tamil. ‘Ava’ is used as third person / thing which is identified as foreign / farrer thing / new to first and second thing reviewed in mind which are nearer to each other.

Avani – ulakam (world), avan- avvidam(that place), avai / avayam- (persons of distance origin assembled), Avayam kaaththal – adai kaaththal (hen protects to deliver new chickens), aval – a new thing from arisi / choru. ‘Avi’ / aviththal – a new thing created by heating. Avaa / Avaavuthal – desire to attain new things. Avayavam – Uruppu - Extra fittings / elements fitted with body after mind and body.

Sometimes this new things may have aspect of negative to first thing.

avathi / avalam – varuththam (sadness) which is opposite to happiness. Avathooru- Pazhi – bad name also has negative meaning.

Avaai nilai – person in needy (abayam & Abaayam in Sanskrit)
There are lot of words in tamil in this root “Av”. Avvai is one of the words of Ancient tamil.

If we replace this ‘Av’ with ‘Ab’ we will get all Sanskrit words While Sanskrit sometimes use direct tamil words with ‘Av’ roots.
Avatharam / Avathari – used for God’s coming / birth on earth (readymade tamil word)

Avasaram, Avamaanam, Avathanam, avamathi etc. are readymade tamil words that Sanskrit uses.

Abinayam- Abi + nayam = new expressions made in God’s idols.

Abibpirayam – Abi + param + Aayam = The essence of God’s intension (new to ordinary human)

AbiMaanam – Abi + Manam – a love to God who is third to one’s love to himself and his wife

Abimukam – Abi + mukam = meeting with God directly.

Abiyukthan – Abi + uththi + an = Extra ordinary ( distant to ordinary ) knowledged person normally God’s Avathars.

Abiraamam / Abiraami – Abi + aramiyam = God’s meant for beauty. Raman / Paarvathi.

Note : Aramiyam was ancient tamil word to specify Beauty. Aran- Arami-Aramiyam Aran –Arani – Ani ornaments. Aramiyam was used to specify Palace,nila mutram & Green place in earth. This Aramiyam turned ‘Rammiyam’ in Sanskrit.

Abilashai – Abi + Aasai- Extra / new desire normally for God.

Abiviruththi – Abi + Viruththam – Extra / new growth by God’s grace

Abeeshtam – Abi + ittam – Extra / new Bagthi to God.

AbaKeerthi – Abi + Karuththu = new intensions of people created against on someone normally against God.

Readers can add more.

f.s.gandhi

Solomon wrote:

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Archeology is the best to guide and based on Stone Inscriptions the Tholkappiyam can be never dated earlier than 200-150 BCE, and first Tamil inscriptions are done after Samane North Indians wrote it in their scripts- the Tamil words, Tamil did not have previous scripts, atleast in pre-500 years prior to 500 BCE, Indus Seals, if you cut the Missionaries, 50% read it as Sanskrit and 50% as Proto-Tamil, but with morethan 4000 types of Pictures, they are more Picotorial than Scriptal.

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The claimed antiquity of S'krit was itself based on speculation. Historical events like Buddha's passing away, Asoka's missionary work, accounts from travellers from outside India --- from the dates of these events. you have to work back and speculate the Aryans entering India must have come in at least two thousand years before and should have taken at least 2000 years to reach the Gangetic plains issuing the vedas. Hence, 2000 yrs before the Christian Era + 2000 yrs in CE. Buddha's demise is calclulated or speculated by references to whatever records are available from Tibet!!

If one does not believe in Aryan Migration into India - worse still, You cannot use the above speculation method to say when the Vedas were written and when the other works came into existence.

As for Tamil, at least there is a legend / history of Kumari Kandam. S'krit has nothing .

Tamil was always known as Tamil. When you talk of Sanskrit, you have so many different names like Chandasa, Vedic etc., It is disputed whether the other names mean "Sanskrit". Why change names if it is the same language? why many times?

Historians say that it was Sanskrit which did not have a writing system.
Why apply that situation to Tamil?

If the first stone inscription was in 100 CE (for example), that does not mean Tolkappiyam was written in 100 CE. What's the connection?. Tomorrow if another stone insc. is found and it is 10000, would the date of Tolkappiyam become also 10K years old? What's the relevannce??

If Sanskrit is IE, why is it not have a writing system like Greek and Latin - Ah, Bah, Cah, Dah etc.,

If it is not IE, why still depend on the dates speculated on the basis of its IE origin?

deva/deiva/theivam, is the root for these the tamil word thee (fire), it is clearly known that we were all nature worshippers, and fire was one of the most sacred (scared too) item of worship, not just in Indian context but else where too. So is it likely that the fire worship resulted in the words deva/deiva/theivam ?

About the root of names of the trinity of hindu gods,

Siva (from sivapu 'red' in tamil, the rig translation of it to Rudra (rud, root for red in all IE)is the excellent evidence for it

Narayanan, 'neer' means water in tamil, neeranavan, neerayanam...definetly the root is water

Brahma, this word does not seem to be (atleast to me) like having a tamil root, infact a lot of words in vedic like brahman, brahmin..... seems to be related to it. Brahma is associated to the creation. Was this concept of a necessary creator existing is per vedic, tamil hindu culture ?
The semitic religions have a fixation on creation/creator, so is Brahma some kind of pre semitism introduced by vedic aryans to tamil culture.

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Brahma, this word does not seem to be (atleast to me) like having a tamil root

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piRa = be born, piRappiththal = to give birth, to create as well as procreate.

piRa > bra > bramah.

-mah.: either a word ending or means mother or great. (tamil).

Explained with tamil roots, the meaning is strikingly reasonable and sound. Brings out the meaning well.

p changing to b , Ra changing ra and dropping "i" in the process is nothing new between Sans and Tamil.

Please also be informed that according to Abe Dubois, the French researcher of last century, the word may have come from (A-brah-am)
the prophet Abraham of the Old Testament bible. His theory is that Aryans came from the Middle East to India.

The other deity names you mentioned - you are right and there are authors saying so.

sivaththal - verb. (=become red).
siva +am > siva +(a)m > sivam.

It is the conclusion of Western etymologists that lexical borrowings from another langauge can occur in nouns and not verbs. When a word is directly derivable from a Tamil verbal root, it is definitely Tamil. Furthermore Siva is not an Aryan deity ; they adopted him later from the South.

niir > niiraayinan > naaraayinan: water-god. According to historians the original worshippers of this deity are the fishermen. Womenfolk of these men feared the seas and worshipped niiraayinan > naaraayanan.
Blue seas, blue skies , blue became his colour. (see Pazanthamizar vaRalaaRu by Prof. Ve.Thi. Chellam)

viN > viNNu > VishNu. (sky god). [ also of blue colour ]

Later a fusion took place between ViNNu, niiraayinan etc, and krishNA.

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So is it likely that the fire worship resulted in the words deva/deiva/theivam ?

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The Latin word "deus" (masculine gender god has been traced to the Tamil word: "thEy" (=to rub against) Friction of stones cause fire.

thEy > thEv > thEvu > thEvan, >thEvi (fem.gen).
thEv > dev (northern languages).
thEy > thEvu > theyvu > theyvam. (Ta)..

The Middle Eastern religions had to progress through a web or multitude of tribal deities - often with conflicts - before eventually arriving at a single god theory. Often the religious leader's tribal god succeeded to become the chief or the only God, suppressing the rest or throwing them into oblivion. The single god emergence contributed to the incorporation of various tribes into one larger community. You may be able to come across books on these in your university or other libraries.

It appears that there were fire worshippers or those doing reverance to fire in Middle East. Such practices were almost always suppressed at great cost as related to devil worship by latter day religions. One would not expect to find any now. Niniveh might have been one of the places closely associated with fire worship.

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Originally Posted by bis_mala

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Brahma, this word does not seem to be (atleast to me) like having a tamil root

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piRa = be born, piRappiththal = to give birth, to create as well as procreate.

piRa > bra > bramah.

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Bramah is usually Tamilised as 'paraman' not 'piRaman' or 'piraman'. The Tamil root seems to be 'para' - (wide)

paramanaip paaduvaar adiyaarkku adiyEn... (Sundaramoorthy Nayanaar)

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paramanaip paaduvaar adiyaarkku adiyEn... (Sundaramoorthy Nayanaar)

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You are au fait with Tamil bakti ilakkiyam as I notice from your partaking in other threads.

Would you consider Manickavasagar to be referring to Sivan, Brahman or just the supreme being at large?

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Originally Posted by bis_mala

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paramanaip paaduvaar adiyaarkku adiyEn... (Sundaramoorthy Nayanaar)

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You are au fait with Tamil bakti ilakkiyam as I notice from your partaking in other threads.

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No so, I am not so much into bakti. Just that I messed around too much with the Othuvars at Tank Road Temple here during my younger days - their singing keep ringing in me.

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Would you consider Manickavasagar to be referring to Sivan, Brahman or just the supreme being at large?

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Manickavasagar - specifically? Thiruvasagam is classified "thOthiram" meaning 'devotional'. So you can see in it, concepts of supreme god Siva, attributes and description of Him, alongside praises filled with some episodes from puranas. More often Manickvasagar refer to Siva as the supreme being at large.

I will glance through my Thiruvasagam - perhaps the first three chapters and come up with quotes - we will see what Manickavagar says. Meanwhile two lines from him....

paraman kANka! pazhaiyOn kANka!
piramanmAl kANAp periyOn kANka!
---- thiruvandapaguthi - Thiruvasagam

Here piraman is lesser than paraman .....

back in a few hours with more lines

thank you idiappam sir! further research - please take your time. no hurry. In the meantime we shall enjoy with a few more words:


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thOththiram

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