Evolution of saivaism and its development is Tamilnadu
Some think that 'saival' means vegetarian. It is not so. saivaism classified the days of week for vegetarian food according to the astrology to do their pujas and other things.
Vaishnavism and jainism spread among saivaist and they also insisted some other days for vegetarian intake during pujas slightly different from saivaite people made all saivaite of today following vegetarianism and Veer saivals were produced.
Anyway the root of saivaism is not vegetarianism so all saivaite followerers need not bother about the criticism of non- vegetarianism.
SAIVAM AND SANGAM LITERATURE.
Friends,
Tholkappiyam does not have any indirect reference to Siva worship.
But Sangam Lit. fully has both Saivam and Vaishnavam.
Friends, the word- Saivam is of SANSKRIT Origin and hence equivalent is SIvaniyam used by many.
Friends- Which ever religion we follow- Vegitarianism is a must.
THIRUVALLUVAR IS Clear, for one who Kills other animal and eat flesh of other animal to grow his Flesh- cannot expect mercy in God's vision.
I await detailed presentation of Saivam, else let me present it shortly.
MosesMohammedSolomon
Re: SAIVAM AND SANGAM LITERATURE.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solomon
Friends- Which ever religion we follow- Vegitarianism is a must.
****
Why it is must Mr. Solomen?
What is Vegetarianism? Do you think plants have life? What do you prescribe as food to Eskimos and other people who are live in non-fertile lands or environment which is not proper to grow any vegetables?
Do you kill mosquito or not? Do you take medicine to kill virus and bacteria entered in to your body or not?
Veg. is luxurious food concept and applicable in a place like India. For survival, one should able to eat what his/her body can chew, digest and take energy out of it. In my opinion if one kills an animal just for stomach (not for tongue) is nothing wrong. As far as possible, giving pain to the animals which has more sensory perception should be avoided.
Re: SAIVAM AND SANGAM LITERATURE.
solomon said:
Quote:
Tholkappiyam does not have any indirect reference to Siva worship.
There is a direct reference --- Seyon = Siva! Not like you said elsewhere as 'Murugan'.
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Friends, the word- Saivam is of SANSKRIT Origin and hence equivalent is SIvaniyam used by many.
That is rubbish! 'Saivam' is Tamil.
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Friends- Which ever religion we follow- Vegitarianism is a must.
Vedas prescribe meat eating. Manu Smriti encourages meat eating too.
Tamil Saiva culture and Vedas
Friends,
Pavanar to all Tamil Non-sense Chavunists use only Sivaniyam as Saivam is Sanskrit and that is the Truth.
Tholkappiyam says Kurinji LaND'S God as Seiyin- The God of Kundurukal and that is MURUGAR, Friends, IDiyappam's Fakery does not help.
Saivam or any religion Vegetarionism is important, and God has made all internal parts of HUMANS, As Vegetarians only.
Vedas belong to 2000 BCE, and why only read the wrong verses.and I can quote similar from Tamil LIt., BELONGIng to 2000 YEARS later. Manusmirithi, for your conveninence would be by A Tamil King Manu or YOU Criticise it, PLEAse read Kural and Practice. Stop Forgery and force me to quote more from Tamil Lit.
MosesMohammedSolomon
Re: Tamil Saiva culture and Vedas
Quote:
Originally Posted by solomon
Saivam or any religion Vegetarionism is important, and God has made all internal parts of HUMANS, As Vegetarians only.
Dear Solomon,
1. I feel, Veg. concept was a very later one to Vedic Hinduism and the major contributors to such concept were Buddhism and Jainism.
2. There was/is no clear cut definition about Vegetarianism in Vedic Hinduism. For example, fish is considered as Veg among Bengali Hindus.
3. Human body can digest non-veg food easily. I had seen most of my Korean/Japanese/Chinese friends eating raw fish heavily and digesting it without any problem. So, your statement is wrong.
4. Your statement "God made human" is highly doubtful. I feel opposite way.
Regarding other points, I don't want to poke my nose at this moment.
For others,
why can't we use latest genetic research to discuss history and beliefs? I read the following interesting articles recently after reading about Dr Spencer Wells’s documentary "Journey of Man" telecasted in National Geographic.
1. The Piramalai kallar, Suthroids and many south Indian tribes have been found to be close match with remote African tribes.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...z&artid=379225
2. East African tribes also have a "mountain god" named "Murungu" (omnipotent universal god)
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Itha...o/sud_afr.html
Surprisingly, the piramali Kallar community and some Adi Dravidian communities also praise "Murugan" as the primary God and these community had settled in and around madurai (early rulers too) long time back (pre sankam, even pre-historic)
Did Dravidians (early settlers) had their own God before (assumed) later migration of other human races to India?
(Note: All the caste names used here are purely for educational/understanding purpose only. I personally feel all humans are equal irrespective of their races, migration periods, origins. No human/language is superior than another)
Saiva Siththantha and Vegetarianism
Friends,
Rrk, has put a simple query, but highly thoughtful and needs complete History to be seen. Firstly Vegetarianism is not Vedic, but influenced by Buddhist and Jains. Firstly I Explain with example, by all available Proofs Buddhism came to Tamilnadu by King Asoka, first landing at Srilanka, and then Crossing to TN. Srilankan Bud-Bikshus have always been Non-Vegetarians in History. So fully putting that Buddists and Jains are responsible is not fully supported by History. Secondly Buddhism and Jainism are not Different Religions to say. They are Developments of Reformations, as a branch of Hinduism, as Protestants to Christinaity. 20th Century Cunning Missionary Minded Indologists divide and called it that way. All Buddhist Statues and Stupas where Buddha is depicted has with Tilak in Head, and quiet a few Godess Lakshmi Statues have been in Archeological findings dated to PreBCE datings in this Stupa areas, and similar is Jainism.
Rrk, puts Rational Question-Did God Created Man? Friend This thread is on Saivite God worship method, I am sure I CAN present Theistic views.
For Rrk- friend Vupanishads have Argued all positions including Atheistic and Buddhism and Jainism are Historically developments of Vupanisadic Argument and the Oldest Lit. of both are More Agnostic, than Theistic is the Truth, with belief in Karma Theory, of repeated Births.
Personally I believe more Agnostic, and with Para Sciences proving Repeated Births, I Trust Karma Theory is scientific. Every Activity You do in this birth would give reflect in your Next Birth, in which Country you are born, to which family, are you full or with any Physical or Mental Handicaps etc.,, are all Decided before Birth and the Individual Child has no choice.
Rrk- I ACCEPT that All Humans were first created in Africa and later moved to other Continents. However We need to understand, man is another Animal till Man started using Brains, and thrived in Civilisation, by Destroying Forests and making Villages and Towns. Friends, all these happened only after the Great IceMelt AS Scientist call around BCE12,000 and Probably speaking all started later.
Man as a Mammal was made Vegetarian and not otherwise is the Scientific view. Simple example is look at all Vegetarian Mammals, they do not have Harsh Teeth to eat Flesh of other Animals, and similar is the Internal Digestive System. Of all Animals in land Elephant a Vegetarian Lives for long life, with Stamina for long hours, Horses run with Vegetarian food, for example. Man must live for up to 150 to 200 years Healthily, but due to his wrong eating habits we see all sorts of ailments and life time curtailed, Digestive power of Man reduces and every Doctor asks you to eat less you cross 40.
So Science do not support Non-Vegetarianism, Man Lives non for his Needs but for Desires and get into troubles, and Non Vegetarianism is one.
Vedas belong to a Period of BCE 2000 or earlier, Now world is changed and become a village, even a Desert or a Famine Hit Country can import from other parts Vegetarian foods. You showed Eskimos; even they can live with Canned Veg. foods. I Do not compel anybody, but give you both Scientific and Theistic Views, as Tiruvalluvar said Very clearly on that, so below-
Than Vun Perkkathirku Than Pirithu Vun Vunban
Enkanam Alum Arul. Kural-251
If some body eats Flesh of other animal to maintain his body and flesh, he cannot expect Divine Blessings. Everybody must avoid eating Meat etc., if you want to reach God' Blessings.
Hence Vegetarian is not only Theistic, but Scientific, Rrk on your other links I have answered basically, still I NEED much more detailed answer in coming postings. If need be please Open another Thread on Vegetarian verses Non-Veg and let me link you to various Scientific sites.
MosesMdSolomon
Re: Saiva Siththantha and Vegetarianism
Quote:
Originally Posted by solomon
So fully putting that Buddists and Jains are responsible is not fully supported by History.
All orthodox Jains are very strictly vegetarian. As far as buddhism goes, there was historically a split between Mahayana (which urged vegetarianism) and Hinayana / Theravada (which permitted meat eating). Mahayana was far more influential in India than Hinayana.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solomon
Secondly Buddhism and Jainism are not Different Religions to say. They are Developments of Reformations, as a branch of Hinduism, as Protestants to Christinaity. 20th Century Cunning Missionary Minded Indologists divide and called it that way.
It depends on how you define Hinduism, I think. Traditionally, both Buddhism and Jainism were considered nastika, and therefore were beyond the pale as far as orthodox Hindus were concerned. This was in particular caused by the way they expressly - and agressively - denied the sanctity of the vedas. This is as close to heresy as you can get in Hinduism.
I think we need to draw a distinction between religions which belong to the same tradition, and between sects of one religion. Hinduism, Jainism and Buddhism belong to the same tradition but are not the same religion, largely because Buddhist and Jain doctrine is heretical from the perspective of Hindu orthodoxy. Their relationship is therefore more analogous to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam than to Protestantism and Catholicism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solomon
For Rrk- friend Vupanishads have Argued all positions including Atheistic
Which of the 108 upanishads accepted by orthodox Hinduism (and considered part of the vedas) espouses an atheistic position (as distinct from describing it in the course of purvapaksha)? Please don't drag in non-vedic "upanishads" like the shvasanaveda upanishad (or, for that matter, Dara Shikoh's so-called "Allah upanishad").
Quote:
Originally Posted by solomon
Personally I believe more Agnostic, and with Para Sciences proving Repeated Births, I Trust Karma Theory is scientific.
Could you please elaborate on the "scientific" basis of the theory of karma?
Quote:
Originally Posted by solomon
Man as a Mammal was made Vegetarian
The situation is a little trickier than that. Scientists agree that we are not designed to be carnivores exclusively, but that doesn't mean we were "made vegetarian." The scientific consensus is actually that man is designed to be an omnivore. The evidence for this is, in brief:
- our closest genetic relatives, the chimpanzees, are omnivores.
- we lack bodily organs to break down cellulose, which herbivores generally have in one form or another
- our molars resemble those of ominvores (such as pigs) very closely. The fact that our canines are short is irrelevant - gorillas and baboons have extremely long canines, and they are almost exclusively vegetarian. The fossil record from australopithecus to homo erectus appears, on the contrary, to indicate an evolution away from a diet based primarily on fruit.
- our intestinal tract, in terms of surface area, is almost midway between those of carnivores and herbivores, particularly when one takes into account the quality of the tract surface, in terms of relative numbers and distribution of the various types of cells.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solomon
Hence Vegetarian is not only Theistic, but Scientific
I think the primary argument in favour of vegetarianism is not moral or scientific, but ethical. Vegetarianism represents a more demanding ethic, one which has progressed from "do not harm other people" to "minimise the harm you cause other living things". The ethical argument is an extremely strong one, in my opinion.
Sivaniyam in Ancient Tamil Literature
Hai,
Worship of Siva is prevalent fully in Ancient Tamil (sangam) period.
Purananuru Kdavul Vazhthu and Song No2 on Udayam Cheralathan refers to Siva and Vedas.
I quote from PARIPADAL On Murugan Birth song
Aathi anthanan Arinthu pariKoluva
VETHA Mapun Vaiyather Vurnthu
Naga Nana Malai Villaga
Muvagai Areil Orazhal Ambin Muliya
Mathira Mazhalveithu Amarar Velvi
Bagam Vunda PAingat Parppan 5:22-27KaduvaliVeiinar
Lord Brahmma, took Earth as Chariot, with Four Vedas-Rog-Yajur-Sama and Atharva as Horses, God Siva took HImalayan Mountan as Bow and took Vasuki Snake as Nan Tie for his Bow and with Fire Arrow Siva Crushed Muppuram erected by Rakshasas.
This instance is confirmed by Puram and other Lit.
Siva and Vetham are regularly covered in Tamil Ancient(Sangam)
Literature.
Re: Sivaniyam in Ancient Tamil Literature
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uppuma
Aathi anthanan Arinthu pariKoluva
VETHA Mapun Vaiyather Vurnthu
Naga Nana Malai Villaga
Muvagai Areil Orazhal Ambin Muliya
Mathira Mazhalveithu Amarar Velvi
Bagam Vunda PAingat Parppan 5:22-27KaduvaliVeiinar
Lord Brahmma, took Earth as Chariot, with Four Vedas-Rog-Yajur-Sama and Atharva as Horses, God Siva took HImalayan Mountan as Bow and took Vasuki Snake as Nan Tie for his Bow and with Fire Arrow Siva Crushed Muppuram erected by Rakshasas..
I don't see the "Four Vedas-Rog-Yajur-Sama and Atharva" in the above verse... Is something wrong with my monitor screen.. :lol:
Or was that deliberately added by you to hookwink us?
Quote:
Siva and Vetham are regularly covered in Tamil Ancient(Sangam)Literature.
Where is the reference to the vedas - "Four Vedas-Rog-Yajur-Sama and Atharva" in Sangam Literatures. Why were they not named?
SIVANIYAM IN SANGAM LITERAURE
Natpugale,
Purananuru -166 says
Nandru aintha NinimirSadai
Muthumuthalvan Vaipoka
Thondru Purintha Virirandin
Arunarntha Oru MuthuNool PURAM 166: 1-4
This is the reference to God Siva giving Vedas - Rig,Yajur, Sama and Athrva to Munivarkal and this is also confirmed by Tholkappiyam and Tirukural and I quote Kalithogai for easy reference.
Aru ari Anthanarku Arumarai Pala Pagarnthu Kali 1:1
The ancient Tamil King was called PalYagasalai MuthuKudumi and on him the Sangam Song is
Velviyil Kadavul Aruththinai! Kelvi
Vuyarnilai Vulagathu Iyer Inpuruthinai!.... Pathrirrupattu 70:12,13.
Natpe, Every Objective Researcher who can really understand Tamil clearly confirms all this are referring to Vedas and even the name Sama Veda is named in one of the Sangam Songs
Hence let us ignore meaningless postings and constrate on what Sangam Lit. tells on evolution of Sivaniyam in Tamilnadu.
Nandri
Re: SIVANIYAM IN SANGAM LITERAURE
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uppuma
Purananuru -166 says
Nandru aintha NinimirSadai
Muthumuthalvan Vaipoka
Thondru Purintha Virirandin
Arunarntha Oru MuthuNool PURAM 166: 1-4
This is the reference to God Siva giving Vedas - Rig,Yajur, Sama and Athrva to Munivarkal and this is also confirmed by Tholkappiyam and Tirukural
Uppuma, you don't understand Sangam Tamil, do you! Why do you misinterpret the four lines. Why did you not post the lines in Tamil - afraid readers may know the meaning clearly? You are trying to mislead. Ok -The verse in Tamil Script,
¿ýÈ¡öó¾ ¿£û¿¢Á¢÷º¨¼
ÓÐÓ¾øÅý Å¡ö§À¡¸¡Ð,
´ýÚÒÃ¢ó¾ ®Ã¢ÃñÊý,
¬Ú½÷ó¾ ´ÕÓÐáø
Where is these lines are the names of the Four sanskritic vedas - the rig, sama, yajur and atharvan mentioned - as you claimed. The poet clearly talk about "oru muthu nool" - one ancient book. That exposed your lies - and stop your lies about Tholkappiyam and Thirukkural as well. Nothing of the vedas there!.
Quote:
and I quote Kalithogai for easy reference.
Aru ari Anthanarku Arumarai Pala Pagarnthu Kali 1:1
So?? Where is Rig in here?
Quote:
The ancient Tamil King was called PalYagasalai MuthuKudumi and on him the Sangam Song is
Velviyil Kadavul Aruththinai! Kelvi
Vuyarnilai Vulagathu Iyer Inpuruthinai!.... Pathrirrupattu 70:12,13.
How ancient was the king? Any dates? Can YOu please explain the meaning of the Pathirrupathu Song.. Who is that 'velviyil kadavul'? The Third Sangam Period began after Tholkappiam - and contined till === When?? do you know, Mr Uppuma?
The Sangam Period overlapped the Bhakti period .. Some Sanga Pulavars lived after Thirungana Sambandar too. So?? If Sambandar talks of Velvi -- why shouldn't Sanga Pulavars - as a narration of what they witnessesed then!
Quote:
Natpe, Every Objective Researcher who can really understand Tamil clearly confirms all this are referring to Vedas and even the name Sama Veda is named in one of the Sangam Songs
Hence let us ignore meaningless postings and constrate on what Sangam Lit. tells on evolution of Sivaniyam in Tamilnadu.
There is very little religion you can extract from Sangam Literature - mostly heroic and love themes only. Keep trying but stop lying!
Saivam in Tamil Literature.
Friends,
I quote back my original from Paripadal-
Aathi anthanan Arinthu pariKoluva
VETHA Mapun Vaiyather Vurnthu
Naga Nana Malai Villaga
Muvagai Areil Orazhal Ambin Muliya
Mathira Mazhalveithu Amarar Velvi
Bagam Vunda PAingat Parppan 5:22-27KaduvaliVeiinar
Natpe- We have MR.Idiyappam who always mistreats and misinterprets Tamil Literaure and its contact with Sanskrit Vedas- which are root of Indian Civilisation. Indian Vedic- Indic.
Now let us see Aathi Anthanan; translate it it is First Brahmin, and I on the Basis of Vedic Tradtion called it Brahma.
Amarar Bagam Vunda Paingat Parppan- Brahmin who eats Devas Yagna part, and I translated it as Siva.
The name Siva, Vishnu, and if my rememberance is riight - the very names does not occur once even in Sangam Lit.
Now Idiayppam has no problem in applying to Brahma and Siva, but when Veda is referred he Comes with Meaningless Postings.
Mr.Idiyappam has been answered several times by PAVANAR and other Quotes, but he spoils each thread, I request Moderators should look.
Uppuma.
Re: Saivam in Tamil Literature.
[quote="Uppuma"]Friends,
I quote back my original from Paripadal-
Quote:
Aathi anthanan Arinthu pariKoluva
VETHA Mapun Vaiyather Vurnthu
Naga Nana Malai Villaga
Muvagai Areil Orazhal Ambin Muliya
Mathira Mazhalveithu Amarar Velvi
Bagam Vunda PAingat Parppan 5:22-27KaduvaliVeiinar
Before you start your round-the-bush-beating, Mr Uppuma (solomon), you should first post some details of the poet - when did he live? I have said many times that the Sangam period overlapped the bakti (a far as the Sangam Literatures are dated). Now would you please give a date for the poet, Mr KaduvaliVeiinar.
Quote:
Natpe- We have MR.Idiyappam who always mistreats and misinterprets Tamil Literaure and its contact with Sanskrit Vedas- which are root of Indian Civilisation. Indian Vedic- Indic.
Root of Indian civilisation???? Then what happened???
Quote:
Now let us see Aathi Anthanan; translate it it is First Brahmin, and I on the Basis of Vedic Tradtion called it Brahma.
Amarar Bagam Vunda Paingat Parppan- Brahmin who eats Devas Yagna part, and I translated it as Siva.
Great - though your translation is wrong and grossly misleading!
A poet sitting down there, looking are the Parppans (Brahmins, as you say) eating Devas roasted in their Yagna Fire, writes the story. So??? So what now?
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The name Siva, Vishnu, and if my rememberance is riight - the very names does not occur once even in Sangam Lit.
Your 'rememberance' is ok you think?? Take a look again!
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Now Idiayppam has no problem in applying to Brahma and Siva, but when Veda is referred he Comes with Meaningless Postings.
I don't understand. Applying what to Brahma and Siva? Nilagiri Thailam? Siva have rheumatic problems? Or Brahma?
Quote:
Mr.Idiyappam has been answered several times by PAVANAR and other Quotes, but he spoils each thread, I request Moderators should look.
Yes, and Mr Idiyappam always catches all the flaws in your proofs.
DEvelopment of Saivam in Tamilnadu.
Friends,
Most of you have missed the latest Research Truths.
Dr.M.Deivanayagam from Pavanar School, has in Doctoral Thesis on "Comparitive study if Tirukural, Bible and SaivaSidhantham"
has clearly extablished, that Saivam and Vaishnavam are a branch of Christianity; developed from the Missionary work of Apostle Saint. Thomas disciple of Our Lord- Jesus. Tiruvalluvar wrote Kural from Bible, and Saivam developed as an Indian form of Christianity.
I would provide various links in my next postings.
PaulThomas
Re: DEvelopment of Saivam in Tamilnadu.
Quote:
Originally Posted by paulthomas
Friends,
Most of you have missed the latest Research Truths.
Dr.M.Deivanayagam from Pavanar School, has in Doctoral Thesis on "Comparitive study if Tirukural, Bible and SaivaSidhantham"
has clearly extablished, that Saivam and Vaishnavam are a branch of Christianity; developed from the Missionary work of Apostle Saint. Thomas disciple of Our Lord- Jesus. Tiruvalluvar wrote Kural from Bible, and Saivam developed as an Indian form of Christianity.
I would provide various links in my next postings.
PaulThomas
Solomon, who is this Pavanar school Doctor?
Wasn't that guy from Universitato di Vaticano?