Significance of the Maasi Maham-Siva & Sakthi Valipaadu

Author - Virarajendra

Significance of the Maasi Maham - Siva & Sakthi Valipaadu

Among the many Valipaaduhal to the - "God as Siva'' - coming in each month of a year, and observed by the Tamil Saivites in Tamil Nadu and elsewhere, the one which falls in the Tamil month of Maasi (13th of February to 14th of March) is the "Maasi Maham", which is sacred to God Siva.

Maham is the tenth star (natchaththiram = constellation) among the twenty seven stars in the Hindu astrological system. The Maham natchaththiram which falls in the month of Maasi very often in conjunction with the full moon day (Mulu Nilaa = Paurnami), is taken as the “Maasi Maham” Valipaadu day.

The “Maasi Maham” is essentially a day of Siva Valipaadu as confirmed by the Koyil Puranam - a Tamil treatise (dating thirteenth century) on Chidambaram the holiest Siva Shrine in Tamil Nadu.

It describes a mythical legend attributed to this celebrations as follows:

“Thesi polipothu nirai atputhan oliser nat Kadal ethir thikalvuttru paasam thalaiara arula Salapathi paravi thinam ithu padivu uttror aasu attru uyar kathi adaiya, kadavulum anuka pera, vara mathu petraan, "Maasi thiru Maham" ena mattrathu thaha mali potr kodiyathu poliviththaan.”

Koyilpuranam - Thiruvilaa charukkam by Umapathi Sivachariyar (In Tamil)

The mythological story behind same is that when "God Siva appeared opposite the sea in the vicinity" where Varunan (Salapathi) remained submerged for his sins, blessed him and freed him from his desires. Varunan in turn worshipped him and requested a varam that anyone who bathes in the sea fronts will be freed from desires and attain high mukthi, and for God Siva to be in presence there on this occasion of Maasi thiru Maham being the tenth day of the month of Masi to bless them.

Hence the "Maasi Maham" festival is essentially a day of "Siva Worship" with sacred Sea Baths at the Sea Fronts and worship of God Siva at the temples adjoing them. This is confirmed by a reference in the 2nd Thirumurai of Tamil Saiva Saint Thirugnanasampanthar dating to mid seventh century (around A.D.650) which is as follows.

“madal arnththa thengin Myilaiyaar "Maasi Kadalaattu" kandaan Kabaleechcharam amarnththaan adalaane earurum adihal adi paravi nadamaadal kaanaathe pothiyo poompaavai”

2nd Thirumurai - Pathikam 47, paadal 6 by Saint Thirugnanasampantha Nayanar (In Tamil)

The army commander of the Chola king Vikrama Chola (A.D.1118-1135) Mavitkooththan Kalingarayan among his religiuos works at the Chidambaram temple, also built a special Mantapam for Maasi Maham Kadaladuthal festival.

"Maasi Kadalaadi" veetrirukka Mandapamum pesa attra avatrai peruvaliyum Eesatkku then Puliyoorke amaiththaan Koothan thisai anaiththu man puliyanai nadakka vaiththu”

South Indian Inscriptions – Vol 4, Page 8 (Chidambaram Kalvettukal in Tamil)

During the rule of Chola and Pandiya kings in TamilNadu donations have been made to temples to assist them in conducting this Maasi Maham festival, and details of two such donations are as follows.

"In the 27th year (A.D.1045) of the Chola Emperor Rajadhirajadeva - 1 (A.D.1018-1054), a gift of money was made by members of the (village) assembly of Manali alias Singavishnu Chathurvedimanagalam. The money was deposited for conducting the festival of "Maasi Maham" at Thiruvottriyur Adhipurisvara Siva temple

Inscriptions of the Madras Presidency – by V.Rangacharya, Vol 1, page 441

"In the 6th year (A.D. 1256) of Jatavarman Sundara Pandiyan (A.D.1251-1264) on the Maham Natchatiram day gifted 350 panams for meeting the expenses of the festival called "Maasi Thirunaal" in the temple Thiru Maanikkamalai Udaiyar Siva temple in Kurunagainadu" at the present Ratnagiri in Thirutchi district.

Inscriptions of the Madras Presidency - by V.Rangacharya, Vol 3, page 1521

Maasi Maham thus has been an annual festival in the Tamil month of Masi. But once in every twelve years - in addition to the full moon being in conjunction with the Maham natchaththiram in the month of Maasi, the moving of the planet Jupiter into the Singa Rasi too takes place simultaneously.

The Maasi Maham which comes with this astronomical combination is called the "Mahaa Maham" and celebrated especially in Kumbakonam at Adi Kumbeswaran temple in a very big way. There are two theerththams (tanks) at this temple. One tank is called Mahaa Maham tank while the other is called as Pottramarai tank, where the worshippers on the Mahaa maham day had their Sacred Baths, in addition to the practice of having Sacred Baths at the Sea Fronts, and the worship of God Siva in the adjoining Siva Temples.

http://blessingsonthenet.com/img/upl...1306471761.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_I6...yer_detailpage Courtesy: G.Muniswamy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdiU...yer_detailpage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luGx...yer_detailpage

The Tamil Saiva Saint Thirugnanasambanthar on his pilgrimage to the holy shrines in Tamil Nadu went to this temple - known as Kudanthai Kaaronam temple during his time - (Kumbeswaran Siva Temple) in Kumbakonam.

"......காவார்பொழில்சூழ்ந் தழகார் குடந்தைக் காரோணத்தாரே...."
".....குழகர் குடமூக்கில்
தீர்ப்பாருடலில் அடுநோயவலம் வினைகள் நலியாமைக்
காப்பார் காலன் அடையாவண்ணங் காரோணத்தாரே".

Second Thirumurai - Thirugnasambandar's Thevaara Thirupathikam on Thirunagai Kaaronam

In describing his vist to this temple Sage Poet Seikkeelar in his Tamil religious treatise on 63 Tamil Saiva Saints - namely the "Periyapuranam" praises the big theerththam therein, and mentions having a sacred bath or dip in same is held as sacred as having a bath in the holy river Gangai on this Mahaa Maham day which is as follows:

“Poomaruvum Gangai muthat punithamaam perun theerththam "Maa Maham" thaan aaduthatku vanthu vali padum Koil”

Periyapuranam by Seikkeelar (In Tamil) – Thirugnanasampantha Swamihal Puranam, Verse 409

Even the Tamil Saiva Saint Thirunavukkarasar refers to the holy theertha Tanks at Kumbakonam in the vicinity of Kudanthai Keelkottam Siva temple as follows.

“....thavi muthat kaviri nal yamunai, gangai, saraswathi, pottramarai, putkarani, then neer koviyodu, kumari varu theerththam soolnththa kudanthai keel koattatthu eng Kooththanaare....”

6th Thirumurai (In Tamil) - pathikam 75 - paadal 10

This is further confirmed by the Tamil Saint Thirunavukkarasar who has made the following reference in his pathikam on the sacred shrine Thiru Kudamuukku also in Kumbakonam as follows:

“Gangai yal aval kanni enappadum
kongaiyal uraiyum Kudamuukkile”

“Godavari uraiyum Kudamuukkile"

“Samiyodu Saraschuwathi aval
Komiyum uraiyum Kudamuukkile”

5th Thirumurai (In Tamil) – pathkam 22 – paadals 3,4,8

"In the year Saka 1445 (A.D.1523) the Vijayanagara king Krisna Devaraya (A.D.1509-29) paid a vist to Kumbakonam for the "Mahaa Maham" festival immediately after his return from his war expedition in the north"

Inscriptions of the Madras Presidency – by V.Rangacharya, Vol 1, page 399

In the present day we see the statues of the deities namely Siva and Parvathi and Vishnu, are brought to the Mahaa Maham tank from the Siva and Vishnu Temples within Kumbakonam district adjacent to Kaveri River, and at the auspicious time devotees both men and women have a holy bath or a dip either in the Mahaa Maham tank or in the river Kaveri.

It is believed that a bath or a dip in the waters of Mahaa Maham tank at the auspicious time provides the same results of having all sins washed away, by taking a bath in all the nine holy rivers of India. After the bath the devotees offer their holy prayers to the Lord and seek his salvation and blessings.

This "Mahaa Maham" Festival takes place once in 12 years on the day of the aforesaid planetary combination, and the festival is celebrated where devotees from far distance places from India throng to Kumbakonam in many "hundred thousands", and take bath or dip in the Holy theertham - the Mahaa Maham tank.

The Video URL of the "Maha Maham Festival" celebrated at Kumbakonam in Tamil Nadu every twelve years is as follows:

The Mahaa Maham day festival was last celeberated on 22/2/2004, and this year (2016) the Maasi Maham Siva Valipaadu falls on the 22nd of February, being the day the Maham Natchaththiram in conjunction with the full moon as per Vaakkiya & Thirukkanitha Panchankams)

This Mahaa Maham festival which falls every twelve years under the above planetary combination, and for the same auspicious reasons, is also celebrated as Mahaa Kumbh (as Kumba Mela) Festival in the north of India especially in at Haridwar, Varanaasi, and in many other places in North India, and the sacred bath or dip is undertaken in the other holy rivers in those regions.

Further according to the mythical legend Maasi Makam is said to be the birth natchaththiram on which Daakshayini (the Goddess Parvathi) was born as daughter to Daksha. Hence Maasi Makam is also celebrated in Sakthi Temples in Tamil Nadu and elsewhere with Pusai Valipaaduhal conducted in a big way having this significance.

Tamil Saivism

Yes - we can see that!

From humble origins in Sangam Literature, to Devotional Songs in Thevaram and Thiruvasagam, to bare-to-bone concepts in Thirumantiram, to a little bit of 'miracles' in Tiruvilaiyadal puranam, to biographies of those saints in Periya puranam, to 'knowing the truth' in Gnanabotham and GnanaSidhiyar, to a mixture of 'this and that' in the Thiripugazh and the Arutpaa and eventually to .........

Decay, I hope not!

Idiappam Sir
Why do you say decay? Is not religion still going strong in India? Or do you see a decline in religious values of Tamils?Why do you say so?

Tamil Saivism is just that! It was there long before the Sangam Period - extending up to even the Indus Valley. But the first description of it we can see in the Sangam Litearture. The religion was at its height during the bhatki period - say from Thirumoolar up to Sekizhar.

We can see that even during the Bhakti period, the Vedic rituals were conducted side by side with individualistic and congregational methods of Saivism. The Vedic rituals, even today, in all temples were conducted as a seperate 'performance' in all ceremonies.

Simple ceremonies were extended to add some 'substance' by the inclusion of Vedic homa! It was all 'worth the money spent' by the devotee.

The religion of the Temples have gone more into a 'ritual performance' to please the Gods. There are no more social enhancement programmes by the Temples.

All kinds of poojas are invented to collect funds. 'Good husband getting' pooja, for girls. 'Good buisiness/employment prospect pooja' for the men!

'New house pooja', 'new car pooja', 'new lorry pooja', ...

'108 sanku abishega pooja', '1008 kuda abishega pooja' ....

"All for the benifit of the devotees for the fulfilment of desirable expectations.", the notice on the temple board reads. Participant have to pay $25 each, of which about $6 remains as profit for the temple, after paying for the pooja items, incuding the stainless steel kudam (pot), payment for the Brahmins conductors of the pooja, incense ghee and champor. The participating devotees can take the empty kudam home and place it at their pooja altar to revere it lifelong.

The $6 (per devotee) profit will be kept in temple kitty till an amount, large enough to pay Nippon Paint to give the temple a fresh coat of colour every 12 years, is accumulated. - It is the Maha Kumbabishegam time!

The cycle is repeated every 12 years with variations. I will talk about the variations....

Idiappam Sir
I agree that such ritualistic worship has become the mainstay now.people think God is only for asking promotions,better jobs,curing sickness etc.i was brought up in this manner only.i was advised by elders to pray to God to get more marks in school!!! nobody thought me the philosophy of religion till i came to the internet world.

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Originally Posted by viggop

Idiappam Sir
I agree that such ritualistic worship has become the mainstay now.people think God is only for asking promotions,better jobs,curing sickness etc.i was brought up in this manner only.i was advised by elders to pray to God to get more marks in school!!! nobody thought me the philosophy of religion till i came to the internet world.

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Dear Viggop

So true Majority of the people's conception of GOD is just like what you have mentioned, I think PHILOSOPHY should to taught to kids at secondary level, because the PHILOSOPHY of GOD is not taught at an early stage, we have such religious Fanatism leading to bloodshed in this kali yuga

:cry: :cry:

No matter how many lights you show him, he can't see it!

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religious Fanatism

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Dear Raghu
A fanatic is one who says only his God is the rigth one and rest is all wrong (evil, satan).

A religious one is one sticks on to his form of God but respects accomodate) other forms of God.

A spiritual is one who sees no difference in any forms of God, all the same.

Tamsic, rajasic, satvic!

And what about the one who sees everything before him with kindness and love, but sees no god???

Nastic, Nastic, Nastic?

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And what about the one who sees everything before him with kindness and love, but sees no god???

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How can one see love and not God and that is the meaning of Anbe-shivam. God is love and not a form.

Gnani Gnani Gnani

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Originally Posted by pradheep

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And what about the one who sees everything before him with kindness and love, but sees no god???

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How can one see love and not God and that is the meaning of Anbe-shivam. God is love and not a form.

Gnani Gnani Gnani

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Good one, that!

Is God a person? Or is God a concept?

Sivame Anbu is the former creed.
Anbe Sivam is the latter ideation.

To those who cannot go beyond themselves, who cannot perceive the abstractness of the whole thing, God is a person. To all such people are prescribed a whole plethora of names and forms and rituals and chants. Because they may find it difficult to think of Love in itself, they are shown a God with a form who is love.

But, to those who can think beyond their limited self, who can understand that there is more to the world than just their limited bodily, existence, who can actually practice such values as love and kindness, as Idiappam has said, God is only a concept. God is only another name for those very values they live their life by. The names and the forms and the rituals and the chants which are mere implements are no longer needed, for they are able to visualize a much higher form of Love and Truth. They are not limited to the "person", and hence have no need for a God with a name and form.

It is as Pradeep has said, the sign of a Gnani!

Dear badri
Very well written and clear. Thanks

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Originally Posted by sbadri99

Is God a person? Or is God a concept?

Sivame Anbu is the former creed.
Anbe Sivam is the latter ideation.

... for they are able to visualize a much higher form of Love and Truth. They are not limited to the "person", and hence have no need for a God with a name and form!

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Bold marking was done by me...

In my opinion the above sentence is complete if it would have been "hence have no need for a God."

Anbe Sivam… or God is love…

The above sentence in various forms has been discussed many times in this thread. Let me talk more practical and look from different perspective.

“Anbe Sivam”. Is it correct or has any meaning in real sense? Is human type God or an abstract concept, nothing but a way of expressing Love and humanity?

If you watch food habit of animal kingdom, we can note that how meat eating animals are ruthless… There are many animals and insects are born to kill… Even grass eating animal are also ruthless if grass is considered as life form. Pain and sufferings are common… so-called God or Nature doesn’t bother to stop any of these natural cycle or process of life.

If you see any natural (ex.. Tsunami) and man made tragedies (ex. Kumbakonam school tragedy, Rwanda killings, or any wars) you can note that how innocents human (even children) had suffered lot and perished painfully… No God ever saved any of these beings from sufferings.

The real and painful truth is that the so-called God or Nature neither bother to protect/ taking care with Love nor to destroy/ throw away with hatred.

The people who escaped some tragedies call those incidents as miracles, ignoring the facts that so many other fellow beings had suffered miserably in the same/similar incidences. There is no miracle in real life… only possibilities of escapes or probability of positive occurrence. The miracle for one may be suffering to another (In Semitic religions the so called God helps particular sect of people to win over enemies. The winners claim those as miracles and even claim their God as universal including for their enemies)

Actually we attribute positive aspects and good things in our view point to God and call those aspects as good, holy, beautiful and heaven. The opposites are called as Satan, Sin, Ugly and hell. A good thing for one might be a bad thing for another. Some great Cultural practice of some human segment might be totally wrong for some another segment.

Good and bad, love and hatred, divine and sin and all opposites are just two sides of a same coin. We judge every thing based on our own perspective, the way we brought up and the way our thinking process is molded. So, we can’t generalize and call our own culture as the great ones or superior. It may be great for us in our view point and might be totally bullshit for others.

The so-called God is neither love nor hatred. Our natural eagerness in expecting positive aspects of life creates our own God. We create our own God on our own shape (or the shape we know based on limitation of our thinking process) as result of harshness of reality or lack of understanding the nature. We are happy with the God that we had created out of this process and with the concepts that meet our selfish demands. That’s why we human have so many religions and so many types of Gods. Any religious conversion or cultural change is nothing but search of more suitable God or a practice which can meet the individual/group’s need and expectations.

r_kk: Really appreciate your level-headedness. Only one thing is puzzling and quite out of character about you. You seem unable to get out of this common man's perception of God.

On the one hand you denounce it as an imaginary concept, and you have explained it so beautifully!! Yet, on the other hand, you seem to be unable to come out of the same imaginary personification yourself!!

It is man's natural and irrestistible urge to classify and name everything he observes. I remember studying this as the opening statement of by Biology course on Taxonomy (Science of Classification).

Based on that, as you have said, man's given names to the so-called "good", "bad", "ugly" etc etc

Some he called God, some people personified it, imagined and worshipped a form with attributes. Others said it is formless, it is nameless, that we can't even say its name. Still others said there is no such entity as these groups were claiming!

Big dea!!

But, it is a big deal! Why is it a big deal? Because that is how the majority of human beings are viewing it! They see something good, they immediately call it Divine. Can you stop it? Can I stop it? Can all of the participants in this Hub stop people from doing that? The answer is a plain and simple NO.

This is the reality. We have to face this reality. Let us say the word GOD is totally banned from usage, abolished. Guess what will happen? Man will invent a new word, "ASFSDF" and then claim, "All that is good, that is pure, that is nice, love, kindness, charity, courage, valour, might, etc etc is all ASFSDF!"

Centuries have rolled past since the civilizations began, and it has been the same story. Nothing you can say can change that inexorable flow of man's thought.

This being the case, what is the best we can do?

a) Rave and rant against it, as some people do

b) Accept it, and become attached to the concept as the others are

c) Reject it in personal life, but understand that one's own personal rejection of the existence of God will make no differnce whatsoever to the faith/life of all the others who do accept its existence

d) Dismiss all this as worthless and live a life that is as best as is possible within one's own strength.

I think (d) is the best bet, at least if I did not believe in God. I strongly believe in God, yet I still subscribe to (d).

Your sleeping child finds security in the teddy bear it cuddles up to. The teddy bear is not going to keep the child safe. There is nothing it can do at all, yet to the child, holding the teddy tightly brings relief. What would you, the rationalist father, do? Try and explain to the child the absurdity of its idea? Take away the teddy bear by force? No, you will smile, and pull the covers a little closer to keep the child warm and make a mental note to buy a softer teddy bear for her next birthday.

God, my dear r_kk, is the teddy bear for many people.


TOO MUCH DIGRESSION FROM TOPIC!! AS USUAL!!! :lol:

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Originally Posted by sbadri99

God, my dear r_kk, is the teddy bear for many people.


TOO MUCH DIGRESSION FROM TOPIC!! AS USUAL!!! :lol:

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Badri,
I generally stay away from discussions related to religion and politics. Your teddy bear analogy reminded me of an after dinner discussion we had long time back. It was about Bertrand Russell, a Nobel laureate. He was an atheist. Somebody wondered how a nobel laureate could be an atheist. Another friend quipped: ' God is crutch for many. If they need it let them have it. If you are strong enough not to need it so be it.' Russell was an intellectual, philosopher and mathematician.

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If you watch food habit of animal kingdom, we can note that how meat eating ,,,,,,,,,,,, Nature doesn’t bother to stop any of these natural cycle or process of life.

If you see any natural (ex.. Tsunami) and man made tragedies (ex. Kumbakonam school tragedy,,,,,,,,, No God ever saved any of these beings from sufferings.

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Man created this feeling thought " God is love and compassionate". Well that is a concept. We make that statement and when life incidents does not fit that statement we accuse God. What an Irony.

So we create concepts and suffer from it.

The truth is, God (Brahmam) is formless and eternal without attributes.

Now you will surely point me that I am contradicting what I wrote here and about God is love in Anbe-shivam. This is because we do not know what love is. The love we think is of expectations, a bussiness. I will do this and you do that in return....I will scratch your back and you have to scratch my back ...otherwise you have no love for me.

Anbe-shivam giving my the great saint MV doesnot mean to this type of love. In sorrow of life, like any mortal he had cried out of pain and asked for help. Buthe realized the Truth finally that heand shivam is one and the same. This one-ness is Love. and that "love" is shivam. "Love" crosses barriers of Ego and whatis Ego? Ego means separation (duality). A mother's love is equated to God's love because she does not feel herself and her baby as two different entity.

Mother is God because the creator, the creation and the created are one. It is her own body (raw material) that is used for creation and who creates the child,it is her body and what comes out of it, her own body...so she and her child is the same...no difference. This is love ...anbu (Anbe-shivam).

This shivam is not a shiva with a jada mudi and a snake around his neck and ganga and crescent moon on his head.

So you create a concept of God as merciful, compassionate and loving and take you to heaven....then you have to suffer from the story you make.

Idiappam asked me whether I know God. I know what I am writing about. Anyone can know ...but needs a preparation for that and that is what is explained in sanskrit or tamil vedas. I dont see any difference in both and I see the same God through both.

Sir Pradheep said:

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Idiappam asked me whether I know God. I know what I am writing about. Anyone can know ...but needs a preparation for that and that is what is explained in sanskrit or tamil vedas. I dont see any difference in both and I see the same God through both.

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That is not very clear! YOu did not say weather you know god! Anyone can know what? What is explained in 'Tamil Vedas?

Tamils, even greatest of all Saivite Saints have declared 'No one have seen Him, no one knows him!'

Do the Sanskrit Vedas say otherwise? That you can see Him?

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Originally Posted by sbadri99

TOO MUCH DIGRESSION FROM TOPIC!! AS USUAL!!! :lol:

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Very correct. Too much out of subject. If it is possible, please move the irrelevant posts to "Does God Exist" thread.

I also would like to explain the other aspects of teddy bear analogy. Actually I don’t want my kids to fight over on Teddy bear. More over I hope that they will understand one day that the fights they were made, on teddy bear is really nonsense and it not the real issue for life. If they still continue their fight on teddy bear even after their childhood, I will explain with all my best efforts to make them to understand that teddy bear will not help in real life.

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Originally Posted by pradheep

So we create concepts and suffer from it.
The truth is, God (Brahmam) is formless and eternal without attributes. …Now you will surely point me that I am contradicting what I wrote here and about God is love in Anbe-shivam. This is because we do not know what love is.

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Dear Pradheep,
Your concept of God can be discussed in different approach using
* Existence sub atomic level particles
* uncertainty in existence of particles
* particles in the form of energy
* anti-particles
* Consideration of thought as form of energy and unification of energy
* human psychological/emotional need for God
* human neurological wirings in brain

If we discuss the God in the above aspect also, we may end up in a simple/complex natural process which do not have any wishes to create or destroy or performing miracle. The God concept, evolved through such process of thinking, will be really no use for all our practical needs.

In all my analogy, I use the word God just to make believers to understand things. I can try to explain in detail, from my perspective, in a relevant thread and when situation demands. But the major hurdle to start this kind of discussion with believers is that believers do not believe even our thinking process as real. If we keep our base limit of discussion as God is beyond all virtual/real comprehension, and thinking/the subject we think/the object which permits us to think all as nothing but same one (oneness or advida), then we will end of no where. All our efforts become useless and just waste of time. I remember that you and Rohit made endless argument on this issues already...

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God is beyond all virtual/real comprehension,

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It is possible and that is the purpose of spiritual practice. I argued in God exists thread but it had to end up because there was no discussion but only vidanta vada. In discussion one can argue that the other person's perception is wrong and give evidence for proving the point. But it is open so that one either finds wrong and corrects himself (both sides). But in vidanta vada one's is of the belief that the other is wrong and no intention of correction and is only in every way to slander the other person is wrong.

I understand all your aprticles, energy, psycological needs of God. But I am not talking about it. I am taking that everything is the expression of the "one".

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Tamils, even greatest of all Saivite Saints have declared 'No one have seen Him, no one knows him!'

Do the Sanskrit Vedas say otherwise? That you can see Him?

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Dear idiappam
This is how secret -guhya-rahasyam is interpretted. People think it is secret means it should not be told to others. No...it means that it cannot be told ....kandavar vindilar....vindavar kandilar......it is a catch-20 statment. When Isay I saw with my physical eyes then I really did not see God....but when I say...I saw....I cannot explain because it is my self that I see (know). Words cannot do the job....that is the secret. This is the secret....one can point the direction but only one can know it...and cannot show it others as one would show an object...becauseGodis not an object.

The above said aspect is very clear both in tamil and sanskrit scriptures.

well Put in other words....I am God (pradheep) chatting with God(Idiappam). The illusion is that there are Two Gods...infact it is the same one God.

This illusion is Maya.....beautifully given in Thirumandiram....

"marathil marainthathu maa-madam yanai...."


This is the one of the chants I love to recite...I am teaching that to my son because he as a kid loves elephants and toys and through this thirumandiram song I am helping him to grasp the Truth.

I would bodly say..ifsoemone got the secret ofthis fourlinesof thirumandiram one can see God....I could not resist to so to quotes these lines in my book on matrix. Itis such powerful lines.

The same we see in sanskrit literature which I mean that not a translation of the song, but the same intendeddmeaning as different sloka.

Also anlayse the verse 488 . how like ... the cuckoo bird dropping its egg in the nest of the crow ....so is maya.

Many friends dislike me explaining with examples and symbols. Well they dont understand infact everything is only symbols. Even in science when we say light is like a wave we draw a wave....but really is light wavein that form...well generally people think that way... in reality it is not that way.

Same with atom ....we draw a center nucleus and then another circle (orbit) with electron going around. it is only a symbol. In reality the electron doesnot go that way....it is only a model.... but such a figure is given only to drive the thought to understand the concept.

This is the secret....of the self.....this secret is revealed only in the enquiring mind which also has quiten the noise of the mind ...can only know the Self. This fact is universal and found in all cultures. But Vedic |(tamil and sanskrit) culture is a good means to know because of the clarity ofthe methodology. The method to enquire the mind and purify it is vividly given (only) In indian culture.


All other spiritual traditions talk about the signs seen while we travel through the road to thedestination. Vedic |(tamil and sanskrit) culture not only gives the signs but also gives the route in detail. This makes a seeker to reach the destination without getting lost. This s why this Vedic culture has been alive all these centuries and now it is growly rapidly too.

Dear Idippam
The song of tirumoolar I forgot to mention is Kuyir-kunju Muttayyai Kaakkayin Koodititaal......(488).

This is complete song in tself about the creation of this universe......

Pradheep Said:

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Many friends dislike me explaining with examples and symbols. Well they dont understand infact everything is only symbols.

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I didn't know you have such good friends. Listen to them will you! The 'I know all you know nought' feeling is no good!

It is nice to see you give a few quotes from Tamil books! But you misinterpretation of the Verses of Appar and Thirumoolar - that is not nice.

YOu have also tried to mix up Tamil and Sanskrit works - trying to show paralles but have come up with nothing in those Sanskrit works.

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This s why this Vedic culture has been alive all these centuries and now it is growly rapidly too.

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Then why are people in rural India converting to other faiths, village by village, all at once???

Don't be blinded by Sanskritists. Vedic culture is not Tamil culture. Vedic culture is NOT a good culture either.

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I am God (pradheep) chatting with God(Idiappam). The illusion is that there are Two Gods...infact it is the same one God.

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Don't tell that to Tamils - who are Siddhantins. "YOu cannot be god and I cannot be god. "He is too Great'," they will say!

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This illusion is Maya.....beautifully given in Thirumandiram....
"marathil marainthathu maa-madam yanai...."

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That's is not what Moolar meant. He was just illustrating one may not see what another is seeing - 'One man's god is another man's devil'.

Tamil saints say things that don't have any hidden or alternate meanings!

And your Kaakkai, Kuyil verse is from the Chapter of 'simple embryology (spell). Nothing more!

Appar's 'Kandavar vindilar, vindavar kandilar', - means -
'Those who have 'seen' can't say - they may not have seen,
those who say I have seen - they have not seen - they are lying."

No one has seen Him! Thirumoolar admits:

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¡ÃÈ¢ Å¡÷þó¾ «¸ÄÓõ ¿£ÇÓõ
§ÀÃÈ¢ ¡¾ ¦ÀÕïͼ÷ ´ýȾ¢ý
§ÅÃÈ¢ ¡¨Á Å¢ÇõÒ¸¢ý §È§É.

À¡¼Åø Ä¡÷¦¿È¢ À¡¼ «È¢¸¢§Äý
¬¼Åø Ä¡÷¦¿È¢ ¬¼ «È¢¸¢§Äý
¿¡¼Åø Ä¡÷¦¿È¢ ¿¡¼ «È¢¸¢§Äý
§¾¼Åø Ä¡÷¦¿È¢ §¾¼¸¢ø §Ä§É.
Thirumanthiram - Tantra 1 - 6.1-2

Dear Idiappam

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The 'I know all you know nought' feeling is no good!

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I dont have the above feeling but "what I know, I like to share and if they feel that changes there awareness well and good". Is this a wrong attitude?

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Then why are people in rural India converting to other faiths, village by village, all at once???

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Several reasons, one of them is a false promise of heaven after death.

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Vedic culture is not Tamil culture. Vedic culture is NOT a good culture either.

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it is your belief.

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"YOu cannot be god and I cannot be god. "He is too Great'," they will say!

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It is all how to take the reality.

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That's is not what Moolar meant. He was just illustrating one may not see what another is seeing - 'One man's god is another man's devil'.

Tamil saints say things that don't have any hidden or alternate meanings!

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Now we can discuss on this. Hope you dont call me schizophrenic. Again it is a sam-vada. I request you to write what you understand by the above verse. I am not a tamil pandit. I would appreciate if you can explain each word in the four stanza with the appropriate context of it.

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And your Kaakkai, Kuyil verse is from the Chapter of 'simple embryology (spell). Nothing more!

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I would appreciate if you can explain each word in the four stanza with the appropriate context of it, of the above also.

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Appar's 'Kandavar vindilar, vindavar kandilar', - means -

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This we will keep for the next discussion. My dear Idiappam sir, please go ahead and give me the correct understanding of Thirumandiram. I am ready like sankara-acharya to give up vedic thoughts if you convince me of your views and would you at the same time accept vedic thoughts if i convince you with my thoughts?

If our dear friends are ready to be judge for our debate, let us welcome their rules and regulations before we start this. With your permission can I call upon two friends who would volunteer to be judge(s)? I propose Badri sir , because he is the moderator and another person is Gandhi-sir because he is good at tamil language. Do you agree with these two people?.

Sir Pradheep!

Let's sort out one thing at a time!

You said:

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This s why this Vedic culture has been alive all these centuries and now it is growly rapidly too.

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Then I asked:
Then why are people in rural India converting to other faiths, village by village, all at once???

Then you said:

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Several reasons, one of them is a false promise of heaven after death.

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So you agree now that there is a mass conversion to other Faiths!Then what was your intention when you lied that the 'Vedic cutlure is growing rapidly'???

I don't think you are clear in your thoughts that I really hesitate getting into any discussion with you. You are fond of telling stories that you make up to 'illustrate you point'. We are not children here! Even when you tell these to your 4 year old, he will certainly respond 'Pa, will you stop boring'. Yes!

Tell him the same when your kid is 14, he will tell you Pa, will you shut up." YOu have also admitted that your friends dislike you resorting to such methods....

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Many friends dislike me explaining with examples and symbols.

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You have also written 'strings' of words like "Vedic |(tamil and sanskrit) culture" - I don't know what your are trying to imply. YOu quoted some lines from Tamil Verses in support of your "Vedic |(tamil and sanskrit) culture" --- but you did not quote anything from any sanskrit source.

To simple questions to put to you, - you give lengthy lectures. I expect quick and clear answers! I don't have the patience to read tons of irrelavance and argue on them.

As for the Thirumantiram verses, they are in simple Tamil - - any reader is free to read it and derive a meaning, as literal as possible or complicate it that it becomes a nightmare to himself.

Anyway, Sir Pradheep keep boring, you may strike oil somewhere, who knows!

Dear Friends
why should there be a fight in the first place in our modern world? Let people follow the philosophy they like and which gives them mental peace and happiness.
If a person is happy saying that everything is "One" and that is Brahmnan,let him be happy with that thought.If another person says that everything is Siddhantam and everything is Shivam,let him be happy with that.Both of these people need not fight and lose mental happiness.let them be hapy with their own thoughts.

there is no need to fight and try to say "i'm right and u r wrong".this attitude should be given up.

Dear Idiappam
You got scared and felt you are not sure about your own belief systems, that is fine.

Dear viggop
This is not a fight. Debates are part of life. If one take it sportive then it is fun.

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Originally Posted by pradheep

Dear Idiappam
You got scared and felt you are not sure about your own belief systems, that is fine.

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Don't go for 'believes' --- Though I may talk of 'beliefs' of another as they have been seen in History and those texts they wrote.

||>>>>any reader is free to read it and derive a meaning||||||||||||||>>>

Dear idiappam
Then why dont you give that samefreedom to others for interpretting and derive meanings. Dont criticize, like you let them have theirown belief's. why dont you write in threads that are like minded like you.

I don't object to anyone's beliefs! I just voice my views, raise questions and leave it if there is no response.

If you go see my posts anywhere that's my style, ever since I started my 'foruming' in the mid nineties.

This is the best attitude.Leave people to interpret things in thier own ways which makes them happy.As long as no one does anything against the law,havinbg different views is perfectly acceptable.

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I don't object to anyone's beliefs! I just voice my views, raise questions and leave it if there is no response.

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Dearidiappam
and what if soemone like respond?. You will then accept only those you ring the same bell as you?. Wont you use your brain and analyze ifthe opposing views make sense?

what is the use in raising questions?. Is it for just time pass or to understand or to offend others. If I explain your questions why are you adamant for not giving a thought? The marathil song from maamatha yanai is not my interpretation. I look at the context at which the song appears. Look at 2288 to 2290. You will understand that it talks about giving up the Ego-awareness to understand the self. As long as one is in the Ego-awareness state one cannot understand spiritual wisdom. One's Ego will then busy seeing only the difference among spiritual traditions and never the one-ness.

Love is seeing God in the person next to us, and meditation is seeing God within us - Sri Sri Ravi Sankar

What a wonderful thing by Sir Sir Ravi! I can see, I can see.

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Explain this Advaitham,Duvaitham and Vishshtathvaitham through Paramathma & Geevathma cocept. Then You will come to know the difference.

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Non-duality is advaitam.....which means there is no difference in Jiva-Atma and Parama- Atma. Whatever we see as difference is only an illusion (maya). Now illusion cannot be literally be taken. Illusion does not means that nothing exist , but there is an error in the understanding. Like the thirumandiram song… the illusion of the form blocked the understanding about the real wood.

In vishit advaitam…….qualified non-dualism….the Jiva and Param are same , but not one, but will merge when the Jiva gets moksha and merges with the Param.

In Dwaita- the Jiva and param are totally different and are like master and slave and will merge to one-ness in Moksha.

So in all the three, the Jiva and Parama-atma merge to one-ness. Here they are all have no contradiction. But the last two differ from Advaita in one aspect. Advaita says moksha is here and now and not in a place called heaven or vaikunda. Advaita says you are looking at the form and creating an error, like looking at the wood and forgetting the true nature you talk about the forms. The forms are maya (dependant upon some-thing else, has no independent existence). Advaita says we need only an Error-correction in our understanding.

Pradeep: A small correction to what you have posted.

But before that, a quick background - I am not too familiar with the Dwaita philosophy, so I wil not comment on that. I am very familiar with Adwaita, it being the school I personally subscribe to, and what you've said is what Adwaita is. However, I belong to the Vishitadwaita school by birth and lineage and therefore have more than a passing acquaintance with its concepts.

The vishistadwaita (VA) concept is not merger. Yes, Sayjuya Mukti is part of the Vishistadwaita creed, but ultimately, it is believed the Jiva continues to exist seperately from the Param, serving the Lord eternally in His Sri Vaikuntham. As Nithyasooris, the Jiva that has attained Moksha lives in the same world as him (Salokyam), close to him, (Sameepyam), of the same resplendent form as him (Sarupyam). In fact, it is said Nityasooris even have the Sankha-Chakra-Gadha-Padma of the Lord and resemble Him in every respect, but are still servitors.

Besides, VA declares that the Jiva is the body of the Paramathma. Just as Jivas have bodies, so too does the Paramathma have the Jivas as bodies. The bodies do not merge into the soul!! Hence, according to VA, neither does the Jiva merge into the Paramathma. The Jiva continues its seperate existence, but forever enjoying the bliss of His Company!

Dear Badri

Vibeeshan asks Hanuman in Ramayan, what is his connection to Rama. He said at body level he is a slave to Lord rama and at mind level he is part of him (Jiva) and at the Atma level both are atma, no-duality.

So advaita identifies us to paramatma at atma level. VA talks at mind level and so is a part. Dwaitam talks at level of the body, then both are different.

Hope you got the understanding of the three.

Hi Badri,
You are more correct. Pradeep is trying his best to unite all the concepts of Hinduism under advaitham. The adviatham concept is somewhat similar to scientifically discarded concept of “luminiferous aether”, which was assumed to be the basic constitutes of every thing.

Advaitham teaches every thing (matter, energy, thinking process, paramathma, jeevathama etc etc) is nothing but one and our wrong understanding makes us to believe each one as different. Such concept is not practical. There are so many real life difficulties with Advaitha concept. I hope you might have heard the story of “Advaithi” jumped in to well to escape from a chasing tiger. I personally faced a situation (similar to early sankara story) when I was coming from the opposite direction of the present Kanchi Sankaracharya on the banks of Haridwar (when I was a believer). I had been asked to stand away from his way. This is the real painful truth. The fictitious “advaitha” is just an imaginative human assumption to create comfortable continuity of life after the death and/or live in detached life by neglecting the real life issues. The experience of one ness through meditation (thoughtless state) can be compared with experience with drugs (I had seen many sanyasis using Hashish to feel the oneness).

Such God concept (oneness) has no real practical values. Such god does not hear prayers!!! Such God neither need any followers nor guide any one with Vedas. Such God neither has any wish or hatred. Such God neither provide heaven nor push any one to hell. Leave aside atheists, even, conventional believer won’t accept such oneness as God. Can any one explain why we need such God? Why we need prayers? Why we need so-called holy books? How such understandings of oneness help in the real life?

Then as usual, we are deviating much from the original subject. Why can’t we discuss this in “Does God Exist” thread?

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Originally Posted by pradheep

Dear Badri

Vibeeshan asks Hanuman in Ramayan, what is his connection to Rama. He said at body level he is a slave to Lord rama and at mind level he is part of him (Jiva) and at the Atma level both are atma, no-duality.

So advaita identifies us to paramatma at atma level. VA talks at mind level and so is a part. Dwaitam talks at level of the body, then both are different.

Hope you got the understanding of the three.

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Does he say that in answer to Vibheeshana? Or does he tell it to Rama?

Deham udyaarthey daasoham
Jivam udyaarthey twamaamshakam
Atmama udyaarthey twaimaivaham

Yes, but even there, VA says I am a part of you, not the whole. How can the part become the whole? That is the contention of VA. In that sense it is aligned with Saiva Siddhanta as well...I am but a slave of the Lord! How can I, who is next to nothing when compared to Him ever become Him?

Refer to Adi Sankara's Vishnu Shadpathi Stotram, where he says, I am a part of you...after all, the waves are a part of the ocean, can the ocean ever belong to the wave?

And this coming from Adi Sankara, the foremost proponent of Adwaita!

Ha! Maybe I should try Pradheep.

Marathai maraithathu :poke: maamatha yaanai
marathin marainthathu :poke: maamatha yaanai
parathai maraithathu :poke: parmuthal pootham
parathil marainthathu :poke: parmuthal pootham

The mad elephant hid the wood!
The mad elephant hid in the wood!
The earthly demon hid the god!
The earthly demon hid in the god

How is it??