Suththa thamizhachi thaamarai

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Originally Posted by podalangai

in essence his argument boiled down to saying that for the purpose of helping the Sri Lankan Tamils, public discourse should be directed towards forcing Indian action, not educating the general public about the nitty-gritties of the Sri Lankan conflict. Describing the bad things the LTTE's done, or even honestly evaluating their acts (which is what he and I were talking about), would be counter-productive, so, he said, those who cared about Sri Lankan Tamils shouldn't do it.

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I will join you in your disagreement with your friend. I actually think the above stance is counter-productive. It undermines the credibility of those raising their voices against a humanitarian crisis.

Anyway I feel knowing more and strengthening and broadening opinions has proved to be quite pointless here. It has accomplished nothing for us while the brute force has won right under our nose yet again.

We had an election brewing in the middle of this. That is when the people have the little power they have. Yet nothing happened. Either the democracy is not designed well enough to translate public pulse into action or there isn't sufficient public awareness about this. I don't want to believe the former as it leads me to a circular logic of supporting undemocratic means.

When something of this sort happens again I am sure we will all be powerless and helpless once again.

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Originally Posted by Sanguine Sridhar

Thamizh eezhathukaaga poraadum LTTE yen adhe kolgai-kaga paadupatta Amirthalingam pOndrorai kondradhu?

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AFAIK..Joe/RS correct me if I am wrong.

Amirthalingam asked the IPKF to stay on until arrangements were made to protect the Tamils.This was even after it was public knowledge that IPKF unleashed havoc on Tamils in SL. LTTE saw this as betrayal and killed him.

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Originally Posted by Sanguine Sridhar

I remember Mathaya was his left hand. Yedhukku avarai kolla vendum?

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This happens in guerilla organizations as Joe outlined earlier. These things cannot be judged by our civilian logic. My question here is, why should we be so concerned about infighting in LTTE ? We should be more concerned about their civilian murders.

Thanks Joe and Prabhu.

நிரம்ப யோசித்தப் பின் என் கருத்தை முன் வைக்கிறேன். நான் புலிகளைப் பற்றியோ பிரபாகரனைப் பற்றியோ ஆதரித்து பேசியவள் அல்ல. அதே நேரம் அவர்கள் LTTE என்ற அமைப்பை( back in 80z ) ஆரம்பித்த பொழுது அது ஒரு விடுதலை இயக்கமாக இருக்கும் கோணத்தில் மட்டுமே பார்த்திருந்தேன். I did not have any judgements, against or for them, except I did feel such organisations were needed to voice atrocities done on minorities.

பிரபாகரனின் மரணம் ஏனோ என்னையும் வருத்தமுறச் செய்தது. தனிமனிதனுக்காக வாழாது, சமூகத்தின் ஒருசாராருக்காக தன் வாழ்வையும் சிந்தனையும் ஒருமுகப்படுத்தியவன் என்ற முறையில் may 13ஆம் தேதி என்னை வருத்தம் தாக்கியது.

ஸ்ரீதர் கூறியது போல் இந்த இயக்கம், வேறு வகையில் போரிட்டிருந்தால் சாதிக்க முடிந்திருக்குமோ என்ற அச்சம் எனக்குள்ளும் உண்டு. ஒரளவு ம்ட்டுமே சரித்திரம் தெரிந்து வைத்துக்கொண்டு இதைப்பற்றி கதைப்பது எந்த அளவு நியாயம் என்று எனக்குள் ஒரு கேள்வி, அதனாலேயே நான் பார்வையாளராய் இருந்திருக்கிறேன். அனுபவித்தவனுக்கே வலி தெரியும். Easy to voice opinion as spectator.So I guess I even lose the right to comment on them, as a spectator, and its shame on me to voice an opinion when I actually do NOTHING to wipe away tears either side.

எனினும்..... I feel they (LTTE) having started with a valid reason, have actually got diverted in their approach and goal and hence earned themselves a seal of "terrorists". நேர்ந்த பல அழிவுகளை விடுத்து செயல் பட்டிருந்தால், கோரிக்கைகளை போராட்டமாக மட்டுமே வலியுறுத்திருந்தால், இதுகாறும் நிறைய பலன்களை பெற்றிருக்கலாம் என நினைக்கத்தோன்றுகிறது. இந்த இயக்கத்தால் விளைந்த உயிர் நட்டத்தில், அவதிகள் பலருக்கு நேர்ந்தது. அவை இலங்கை வாழ் மக்களானாலும் என்னால் அவர்களை பிரித்து பார்க்க முடியவில்லை. அவர்களின் மரணமும் வலியும் கூட எனக்கு மிகுந்த வருத்தமளிக்கிறது. Any atrocities done by anybody or orgnisation towards anybody is condemnable.

நாடெங்கிலும் வன்முறை விடுத்து, அமைதி நிலவினால் அதுவே வெற்றியும் நிம்மதியும் தரும். அதற்காக என்னாலான ஒரே முயற்சி அமைதிக்காக பிரார்த்தனை மட்டுமே.

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus...0905261965.htm

from this article

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Originally Posted by The Hindu

"If he has funded the assassination, then why did you not proceed against him?" a vacation bench of Justices V S Sirpurkar and R M Lodha asked ED's counsel Wasim Ahmed Qadri.

The bench made the passing reference after the ED opposed Chandraswami's plea to travel abroad on the ground that he had several criminal cases registered against him and is suspected of funding the assassination of Rajiv Gandhi.

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Wasn't this godman close to all bigwigs of Cong(I) ? If he got involved in the killing, what was the reason / motive? Was there another big name in politics behind the killing, comfortably dumping the charges on the "agents / instruments" used?

Now this case may be closed without much noise (like the pleasant hotel case- riots upon which took the lives of those three girls and robbed the peace of their families, not just by death, by repeated telecasts of their cries).

So much of time / money by a huge machinery got spent on the investigations...for what? Just to drag on something for many years - without punishing or even identifying the real culprits and then when politically convenient, close the case?

I think it would be extremely difficult for any politician to get punished from the system in India, going forward.

I hate coming to mayyam for many reasons but out of curiosity I have come.. Selva and I quit the mayyam for same reasons and I don't want to be posting here but can't resist setting few things right.. I think the hub is best left with people who have never been to the failed state or experienced state terrorism to share their "opinions" based on a few rhetorics by GoSL. Our pain is better known to us than to anyone else because we felt it.

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Originally Posted by Prabhu Ram

But then she ends with Tiger gOsham 5 pEr bali aanaargaL, 50 pEr puli aanaargaL !! WTH !

It cannot be that she is ignorant of the ruthless acts of LTTE. She seems to be a well informed person. Everyone who shares the stage with her talks about Rajiv, giving the impression that this was the only mistake of the LTTE and as if they have never resorted to violence except in self defence. She - and so many others - are wilfully not looking at the slimy side of the Tigers. Why ? Is it so damn difficult to not present a one-sided picture to the people ? This is just wilful deceit. That is what annoys me.

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Can you do anything meaningful to us than writing what annoys you.

I think your argument is "why LTTE retaliated?" Probably LTTE would have earned your support if they gathered the relatives of those who were raped or killed by GoSL and sang chorus of anti-Srilankanism. It had happened before even before the arrival of LTTE and didn't have any positive impact and the ahimsai demostration were met with brutal killings of that very people. I cannot sit there and look in awe when my sisters and relatives are either killed or raped. If I retaliated, you'd say "you are a terorist" Put yourself in Eezham Tamils shoe.. I think it is funny that people never been to Eezham and experienced the worst criticizing the organization that represented the Tamils.

Ghandi used fast-unto-death as a tool to achieve great things.. He fasted many times but he did not die fasting. Thileepan fasted once and died because of that. You knwo Ghandi and I know Thileepan. Nobody talks about Thileepan except us.. engalOda pirachanai ungalukku puriyaathu. itha vittutu cinema analysis ezhuthina bettera irukkum.

Maybe you are ignorant of the fact that there was not a major riots against Tamils since the blackjuly in Colombo or other sinhalese dominant places. Ever asked yourself why it never happened? When Army go on a killing spree on north or east, LTTE will go on a killing spree in Sinhalese villages.. Sinahlese would definitely get upset over the government doesn't stop killing Tamils because it turn, LTTE will kill Sinhalese. If LTTE killed 25000 Sinhalese when army was shelling into LTTE area, Sinahlese would have asked the government to stop shelling into LTTE area because they are firing back.. I wish they had done that. You gave a wikipedia link of LTTE massacres but there's always a massacre of Tamils that preceded the massacres of Sinhalese. Most of the massacre they accuse LTTE of is their own fabrication.. Such a shame wikipedia is not so reliable.

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Originally Posted by Prabhu Ram

மனித உரிமை மீறல் பற்றி மேடையில் பேசுபவர்கள் புலிகளுக்கு ஆதரவு தெரிவிப்பதில் உள்ள முரணை மட்டுமே சுட்டிக் காட்ட முனைந்தேன். அதைத் தவிர்த்திருந்தால் மக்களிடையே இன்னும் ஆதரவு கிடைத்திருக்குமோ என்னவோ. இப்போது ஒரு சாமான்யர், 'இவர்கள் எல்லாம் புலிகளின் ஆட்கள், இப்படித் தான் பேசுவார்கள்' என்று புறந்தள்ளிவிட்டு அங்கு இலங்கை அரசு நடத்திய கொலைகளை கண்டுகொள்ள மறுக்கும் நிலையை இன்னும் எளிதாக்குகிறது இல்லையா.

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whose support? your support? We don't need your support because you are an elite and you don't want to get ugly. We grew up in LTTE territories and we never heard of cinema, sex outside marriage, club, theft, caste, religion, oppression of females, rapes or condom. Most Tamils like a society that treated everyone equally. You won't understand us.. They have the support of Eezham Tamils. At least 97% support them. Ther 3% is EPDP, PLOT etc and their families. You should spend your time spreading Ghandism, not Mandelaism or Netajism.

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Originally Posted by rocketboy

Exactly, our sympathy should be with the people who have perished in the war, people who have been made refugees in their own land and not with LTTE. Remember the Rajiv gandhi assassination. Did Rajiv Gandhi alone die in the blast? How about the innocent by-standers. What harm did they do to the LTTE or the Eelam Tamils? Oru unmaiyana Tamizhan Srilankan tamizharkalukakka vethanai paduvan, avanga nalla irukkanum nenaipaan. Avvalave. LTTE committed two major blunders. Rajiv gandhi assassination and antagonizing the Srilankan Muslims, thereby incurring their wrath.

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We feel for the bystanders :cry:

but what harm did we do to the Indians to deserve the treatment they gave us? over 4000 were killed by the Innocent People Killing Force. Girls were raped. Guys were burned to death. If I weren't a kid at that time, I won't be replying to you now. It's always India.. my country, my people.. are we(Eezham Tamils) animals?

In my neighborhood there were about ten kids under the age of 10.. Once we were playing in the small field that separate my house from another house, Indian army came and grabbed a girl(she was 10).. and draggd her out of that place. My mom screamed.. tried her best to draw the attention of the neighborhood in order to protect her from being taken away. They said she's having an affair with an LTTE and that's why they are taking her away. As a kid, I didn't know what to do, I tried to drag her back and was hit by a swing of the gun in my chest.. I fell unconscious. When I recovered I asked my paretns and her parents about her and they didn't say a word about it. Four days later, a body was found in a well and it was none other her. It was a harsh reality for a Tamil kid. I came to term with the fact she was no more. I wasn't told about what happened to her untill I was 16 but I knew then she was killed by IPKF. I have frequent chest pain and I always go for a checkup and different doctors always repeat that you have no problem.. and asked me if my parents have this problem. A month after her death, the army came again and told my parents that we have bombs in our roof and they wanted to check it. They removed the roof and checked for something that never was there and returned without putting it back. We had to hire people to do it. My nursary(LKG) teacher was a 29 year old lady. She was so nice that I liked being at nursary all the time. She was abducted by the IPKF when she was returning from the nursary, raped and killed. I can't go in detail because what happened to her was so disgusting. These are two cases that directly affected me. I have many many stories I have heard from relatives of the atrocities of IPKF.. It made no difference whether it is IPKF or SL army.. we are the victims. If you want to hear about Sinhalese chavunism, you can ask any Tamil whether he is from Jaffna, Vanni or Batticola.

What PR would say to the girl's parents? What can you offer to the parents other than a few empty words? Don't assume that the conflict is only 26 years old.. it's 60 years old and arm struggle was the last resort.

For India and China it was a playing field and they are responsible for the massacre of Tamils as much as SL is responsible for it... Rajiv Ghandi killed 4000 Tamils in late 80s.. Sonia killed 25000 in 4 months. What will Rahul Ghandi do to us? Wipe out the Tamils without a trace? Was Rajiv Ghandi not a terrorist? What was his goal? was the massacres of Tamils unintentional? Why did you all vote for a terrorist and his family?

by the way the real terrorist
http://tr.truveo.com/breaking-news-w.../id/3593111801

"now the language has changed"
He formed his own terrorist organization because he thought "Indians are going to take over the South,".. and he can't give an inch away to others..

There was a strong resentment in Sri Lanka from all ethnicity toward Rajiv Ghandi and almost everyone wanted him dead, but Tamils wanted it more. terrorist mahinda would have declared a public holiday when rajiv was killed.. now the language has changed. We would have achieved our goal if not for Indias involvement in our struggle. No offense to anyone.. Nothing against India but we hate Indian politicians.

Nelson Mandel was a terrorist yesterday and now he is a noble prize winner... When you fight for a separate country, you are a terrorist and you'd be accused of almost everything in the world. This is the norm. Why people don't consider Yasir Arafat, Bush, Aerila Sheron as terrorists? :(

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Originally Posted by game

Can you do anything meaningful to us than writing what annoys you.

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I can do absolutely nothing.I can make more people more aware particularly those with access to lesser information than I have. I could possibly vote in a more informed. That's pretty much all I can do.

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Originally Posted by game

Don't assume that the conflict is only 26 years old.. it's 60 years old and arm struggle was the last resort.

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You seem to assume anyone critical of the LTTE's methods knows nothing about the struggle.

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I think your argument is "why LTTE retaliated?"

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No. You are wrong right there. That the LTTE is an organization that started as a final resort in a long struggle for rights is something I am quite aware of. Let me repeat what I have already said in earlier posts.

People who admit to certain faults of the LTTE usually admit to the quaintest of faults. Like maintaining internal order with an iron hand, silencing competing representative voices and assassination of political leaders. All of these IMO are understandable for a rebel organiztion such fighting for a cause. Particularly the assassination of leaders the media tends to harp about all the time. Much like a retalliation to the army is a case of defending arms with arms, the leaders too are in some ways 'culpable' in that they make the policies that permit the violent confrontation of the LTTE.

Slowly people are being made to believe that the LTTE NEVER attacked civilian targets. Slowly that lie is being disseminated. Last year, on Prabhakaran's birthday (I think), Seeman made a speech somewhere in Canada (it's available in youtube). There he talks at length about the
struggle. And then he refers to the surprise aerial attack that LTTE carried out in April 2007 on a Sl Army defence base. And then he said something like "if we wanted we could have attacked the city and civilians. But we did not. எங்கள் இலக்கு அது அல்ல்" etc.

And that's the kind of statement people fall for hook line and sinker. In fact it even confused me. It presents LTTE which does not resort to violence on civilians and one that takes up arms exclusively against the SL army. Lots of young people tend to believe this image.

The truth is LTTE has with conscious intent never hesitated to carry out ethnically targeting murders. Just like the pictures we see today there are tonnes of pictures of women and children blown to bits and pieces, gory flesh and blood photographs of massacres the LTTE has carried out. There is now a calculated attempt to push these things below the carpet. That is what I am trying to point out. Particularly in a protest meeting where the speaker talks well about the Human Rights violations of the Government, I find duplicitous for her to end the speech with a note of support for an organization which is a notable human rights violator itself. That is why I constantly try to point out.

In this I know I fail badly. There is a great demand to see the world in black and white. Prabhakaran has already been deified. Quaint articles are being written in the mainstream press recalling his idiosyncracies, simplicity, determination etc. India is a country where Mao and Stalin have already been elevated to demi-god status. They have shut a blind eye to their massacres, murder of innocents in the name of ideology and power. One more is in the process of being added to the pantheon.

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Originally Posted by game

Most of the massacre they accuse LTTE of is their own fabrication

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I have heard this too. But beyond a certain stage in things like this, it is a toss-up between various conspiracy theories. All one can so is rely on what is likely to be the case BUT at the same time having the open mind to correct one's opinions when they are proved wrong.

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Originally Posted by game

I think it is funny that people never been to Eezham and experienced the worst criticizing the organization that represented the Tamils.

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True we can never experience the pain and suffering like your experiences which you described. It can be alleged that "Rape and murder" are just words to people outside the field. However that doesn't invalidate completely all opinions people may have formed after an assimilation of information and consideration. We debate and argue to get rid of flaws in logic, misunderstanding because there is a certain deal of universal concern in all of us. That is the concern that excites emotions in us regarding events that do not affect our day to day life. I don't think the concern is to be a subject of ridicule. Anyway all this may just seem 'empty words' to you. There is nothing that can be done about that.

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Originally Posted by game

When Army go on a killing spree on north or east, LTTE will go on a killing spree in Sinhalese villages.. Sinahlese would definitely get upset over the government doesn't stop killing Tamils because it turn, LTTE will kill Sinhalese. If LTTE killed 25000 Sinhalese when army was shelling into LTTE area, Sinahlese would have asked the government to stop shelling into LTTE area because they are firing back.. I wish they had done that.

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If so then I see no point discussing further.

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Originally Posted by Prabhu Ram

Much like a retalliation to the army is a case of defending arms with arms, the leaders too are in some ways 'culpable' in that they make the policies that permit the violent confrontation of the LTTE.

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PR, what do you mean by this?

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Originally Posted by Prabhu Ram

Slowly people are being made to believe that the LTTE NEVER attacked civilian targets. Slowly that lie is being disseminated.

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This has been going on for a long time, and it doesn't just apply to the LTTE. Just about every aspect of the history of the ethnic conflict (and Sri Lanka) has been rewritten by all three sides, to the extent that it almost feels like you're reading about three totally different conflicts when you read what each side says.

It's had its consequence, of course. Tamils, particularly in the diaspora, have simply no clue how the LTTE is seen by the west (or, for that matter, in Tamil Nadu - notice how so few people over 40 have been taking part in the demonstrations in TN?), nor are we as a community able to understand why an acceptance of the essential justice of the Tamil cause hasn't translated into concrete measures of support for Tamils (or even a reduction in the support given to the GoSL). That's meant, amongst other things, that we were absolutely unable to do anything to stop the carnage in the Vanni or even ease the suffering of the people of in the camps, notwithstanding the West's outrage at Sri Lanka's war tactics.

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Originally Posted by Prabhu Ram

I can do absolutely nothing.I can make more people more aware particularly those with access to lesser information than I have.

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I'm not sure there's much point in trying to do this on this forum (as opposed to, for example, in the print Tamil media). The black-white dichotomy is entirely too pervasive in India, and it's turned our Sri Lanka policy into an utter disaster. We have a moral obligation to fix the mess we've made of the lives of the Tamils of Sri Lanka, but until we take off our blinkers anything we do will only make things worse.

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Originally Posted by podalangai

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Originally Posted by Prabhu Ram

Much like a retalliation to the army is a case of defending arms with arms, the leaders too are in some ways 'culpable' in that they make the policies that permit the violent confrontation of the LTTE.

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PR, what do you mean by this?

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What I meant is this: things have to be seen from the point that given that the struggle has moved to such a stage that an organization has decided to take up arms. In that scenario using arms against the army can be understood as the army poses a direct physical threat on the LTTE and what it stands for. Taking arms against the army would be able 'self-defense' from that point of view. Political leaders who direct policy which make the army a threat to the LTTE are also 'culpable' (from the LTTE PoV) . So much so that even their assassinations can be understood. In the sense that they do not stand counter to their claims as freedom fighters taking up arms in self-defence.

On the other hand it is the massacres on civilians that (IMO of course) invalidates the moral standing of the organization in substantial measure.

Yes the Rajeev assassination occupies a huge space in the Indian consciousness. Most of us in our twenties are likely to have had that as the starting memory from which whatever understanding we developed began. So, to an extent I understand the appeal to look beyond it. Looking beyond should also mean having more appropriate parameters to judge.I keep harping on this because in the last 2-3 years the media has slowly been saying things like the LTTE should not be judged in the light of Rajeev assassination alone. It is almost as if, if that not happened, or by some turn of events LTTE could be absolved of this now, they would be an organization worthy of the whole-hearted support of the people.

With all due respects to all who lost their lives including VP and team, SLA, the victims of assassinations and especially those innocents who lost their own lives and the lives of those who they held dear over the past 30 years. Here are some pictures that speak volumes http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2zba2dy6fU

Ultimately, for those innocents who lost their lives, it does not matter who is in charge or what the cause is/was.

Don't miss http://www.dbsjeyaraj.com/

Agreed there were problems. Let's assume LTTE's original goals were justified and lasted 5-10 years, does this mean that LTTE was justified in enslaving the SL Tamils and their dreams for 25 years forcefully recruiting their children and giving them cynaide pills.

Imagine a scenario like this in pre-independent India. Imagine if we had leaders like the LTTE living in luxury and giving our forefathers cyanide pills to fight the Brits....