well, why does he/she exist in two disguises I wonder?!Quote:
Devapriya = Uppuma!!
Is that because if nobody listens to his/her bs then, he/she can listen to him/herself as if another hubber :?:
Well...
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well, why does he/she exist in two disguises I wonder?!Quote:
Devapriya = Uppuma!!
Is that because if nobody listens to his/her bs then, he/she can listen to him/herself as if another hubber :?:
Well...
Solomon how do you explain the presence of the word Jesus in vedas ? does it mean that the vedics were christiansQuote:
Solomon wrote: The name Siva was coined after Sangam period where as Rig in 10 has it. Please Show me where Lingam Worship is mentioned in Sangam Litr
Friends,
Mala starts her techniques,Tholkappiyar has very clearly tells 4 types of words- Natural words, Twisted words, Directinal Words from 12 Directions and Sanskrit words.
Sanskrit words must be Tamilised by avoiding Sanskrit letters. So Siva is absorbed in to Tamil, and Uppuma's quote proves that MM.Aadigal regards that way only.
As Fsg named MM.Aadigal in Arabic Thread we find MMAadigal quotes there, but MALa can well answered here- instead of wasting time.
I QUOTE from MM.Adigal-"thamizar matham" Page number -¸¹Õ i.e.,135.Here he says, close to 2nd Century A.D.,those worshipped SIVA (appan) Pridominantly AND those Who worshipped Umai or Parvathi (ammai) Predominantly got separated and I now quote tamil in full:
þùÅ¢Õ §ÅÚ ÌØÅ¢Éâø «ôÀ¨É Ží̧š÷, «õ¨Á¨Â Ží̧š¨ÃÔõ, «õ¨Á¨Â Ží̧š÷ «ôÀ¨É Ží̧š¨ÃÔõ þÆ¢òÐô §Àº¢ì ¸Ä¡õ Å¢¨Çì¸Ä¡Â¢É÷. þ즸¡û¨¸ô §À¡Ã¢ø þÕ ÌØÅ¢ÉÕõ ¦ÀñÀ¢ÈÅ¢¨Âì ̨ÈÅ¡¸ì ¸Õ¾×õ §Àº×ó ÐÅí¸§Å, «õ¨Á¨Â Å½í¸¢Â ÌØšâø ´Õ ¦ÀÕõ À̾¢Â¡÷ ¸¼×¨Çô ¦ÀñÅÊÅ¢ø ¨ÅòÐÅÆ¢À¡Î Òâ¾ø ¾ÁìÌ þÆ¢¦ÅÉì ¸Õ¾¢ «õ¨ÁÔõ «ôÀɡ츢 «ÅüÌ Á¡§Â¡ý, ¾¢ÕÁ¡ø ±ýÛõ ¦ÀÂ÷¸¨Çô Ò¨ÉóРŢ¼Ä¡Â¢É÷.
We know Tholkappiyam and Sangam Lit. has extreme Vishnu worship, but See MM.Aadigal who to substantiate his Saivite belief, made Unwarranted abuse against Vaishnavam and gave as Research Opinions. Friends if somebody reads Pavanar or MMaadigal, see how Unnecessary attacks on Certain Tamils and Inidans are made, which cannot be put in a Decent Forums.
Professor HART on Burrowing of Sanskrit words in to TAMIL AS FOLLOWS:
lNeither Sanskrit nor Tamil are particularly old in the world scheme of things. Sanskrit is documented earlier than Tamil.
Sanskrit has borrowed quite as much from Dravidian as Dravidian has from Sanskrit. Tamil has borrowed more words from Sanskrit than Sanskrit has from Dravidian.
Both languages are carriers of wonderful and rich intellectual and literary traditions. The only way to appreciate either language is to read these literatures and spend a lot of time pondering them.
Friends- I QUote from Tamil Arignar R.Shanmugasundaram-
§Å¾ì ¸¼×û ¯Õò¾¢Ã§Éº¢ÅÉ¡É¡ý ±ýÀ¾¢ø ³ÂÁ¢ø¨Ä. §Åòì ¸¼×û ÁÕ¾õ ÓÕ¸ý É¡ý. «¸ò¾¢Â÷ §Å¾¾¢Öõ ÜÈôÀθ¢È¡÷. Å¢‰Ï×õ þó¾¢ÃÛõ §Å¾ì ¸¼×Ç÷. ±É§Å âÂì ¸¼×û ¾Á¢úì ¸¼×¦ÇÉô À¡ÌÀ¡Î ¦ºö¾ø «÷ò¾ÁüȾ¡Ìõ. Àì 128
vEthak kadavuL uruththiraneesivanaanaan enbathil aiyamillai. veethk kadavuL marutham murugan aanaan. agaththiyar veethathilum kuuRappadukiRaar. vishNuvum inththiranum veethak kadavuLar. enavee aariyak kadavuL thamizk kadavuLenap paahupaadu seythal arththamaRRathaakum. pak 128
I do not want to repeat, please see Arabic Vedic Past for Sivalinga Worship Thread.
More details follows.
Mahadevan, Do you want me to respond for your Question to Solomon- about the Dirty Techiniques of Missionaries- NO Name of Jesus is is Vedas, is the truth. Are do you agree PaulThomas position of Bible Inspired Tirukural and Saivam and Vaishnavam is Christian?
Friends,
Idiayappam Uncle wanted to Know where is Bible is Sivalingam worship and Aibshekams done and Undle Guessed Psalms.
Uncle it is verymuch in Genesis and Exodus.
And Jacob rose up early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put for his pillows, and set it up for A PILLAR, AND POURED OIL UPON THE TOP OF IT. Ge 28:18
And he called the name of that place Bethel: but the name of that city was called Luz at the first Ge 28:19
There are many more such that can be shown.IT is the Hatred that spoils your views. And God here is called El-Shaddai, a pure Tamil word for the name of VEDIC RUDRA Siva
"And God here is called El-Shaddai, a pure Tamil word "
At this rate Devapriya is going to say that Hebrew is nothing but Tamil :)
Whether you agree or not, Dharmapuri Adheenam Sri La Sri Shanmuga Desiga Gnanasambantha paramachaariyar did not disagreeQuote:
Originally Posted by devapriya
Quote:
Originally Posted by devapriya
I raised some issues but you have your own tricks whereby u avoid.
He never mentioned Sanskrit. Do not try to edit Tolkappiyam.Quote:
Tholkappiyar has very clearly tells ................... Sanskrit words.
.Quote:
So Siva is absorbed in to Tamil, and Uppuma's quote proves that MM.Aadigal regards that way only
Siva is aborbed into Sanskrit. That's the way all Tamil exponents including AdigaL regard. Siva comes from Sivaththal, meaning chemmai or redness, symbolic of righteousness. "chEyOn" from chE = red, chevvEL from chE=red. Just pass your "elementary Tamil course" and you know this.
It has been answered. Why do you bring up something already done with. Your quote here has no relevance.Quote:
As Fsg named MM.Aadigal in Arabic Thread we find MMAadigal quotes there, but MALa can well answered here- instead of wasting time.
It is correct. By 2nd c ACE, the concept of Ammaiappan arose. So what?Quote:
I QUOTE from MM.Adigal-"thamizar matham" Page number -¸¹Õ i.e.,135.Here he says, close to 2nd Century A.D.,those worshipped SIVA (appan) Pridominantly AND those Who worshipped Umai or Parvathi (ammai) Predominantly got separated and I now quote tamil in full:
Vishnu is from Tami: viNNu, the sky god of Dravidians, and ViNNu (sky) is blue. Adopted by the North later. AdigaL did not attack any religion. Please do not lie.Quote:
We know Tholkappiyam and Sangam Lit. has extreme Vishnu worship, but See MM.Aadigal who to substantiate his Saivite belief, made Unwarranted abuse against Vaishnavam and gave as Research
Prof Hart may have his own opinion. But it has been proven by M. Lahovery and his team and also other linguists that 1/3 of Sanskrit vocab is clearly Dravidian (Tamil) and Dravidian had tremendously influenced Sanskrit in other aspects too beside the lexical.Quote:
lNeither Sanskrit nor Tamil are particularly old in the world scheme of things. Sanskrit is documented earlier than Tamil.
I would rather be guided in this respect by Lahavery (researcher ) than other academicians (who are teachers only). But it is true that koil kurukkaL borrow a lot of words from Sanskrit.Quote:
Tamil has borrowed more words from Sanskrit than Sanskrit has from Dravidian.
How else - any language!!Quote:
The only way to appreciate either language is to read these literatures and spend a lot of time pondering them.
There are hardly any Ariyak kadavuL. All are Dravidian. There are no Indo-European kakavuL.Quote:
Friends- I QUote from Tamil Arignar R.Shanmugasundaram-
vEthak kadavuL uruththiraneesivanaanaan enbathil aiyamillai. veethk kadavuL marutham murugan aanaan. agaththiyar veethathilum kuuRappadukiRaar. vishNuvum inththiranum veethak kadavuLar. enavee aariyak kadavuL thamizk kadavuLenap paahupaadu seythal arththamaRRathaakum. pak 128
[/quote]
devapriya,Quote:
Originally Posted by devapriya
I think it is about time to stop this comment in every post of yours! :P
We all have the same skill like you have to see whose techniques are what using our own brain. :P
Devapriya, Solomon, Uppuma and all those anti-tamil vedic stooges can't give a single quote from the Vedas - to support their view that Siva is Vedic..
There is no Siva in the Vedas ..
End of argument!
Corollary to that is: Sivam<>Sivan is Tamil word; Sivan worship originated in Tamilnadu/ (Dravidian country).Quote:
Originally Posted by Idiappam
Yes yes I agree with Mala.Quote:
Originally Posted by bis_mala
It originated from Dravidian country. Dravidian country extends from Seattle in the West to Tokyo in the east. Tamil is the mother of English.
English is itself derived from tamil word Aangilam.
Aangilam->Engilam->Adding the sanskrit sh (done by vedic stooges)->English.
Hai Indian brother! You will forever be unhappy. I have looked into the causes. You have this number 224080 my dear! It adds up to 7 and according to numerology, not only that you will be unhappy, but you might also end up attaining reverse enlightenment. Do apply quickly to admin of the hub to change it and have a re-look at our presentations. That will give you a much-needed lead to recovery. Best regards!!Quote:
Originally Posted by indian224080
Friends,
I have requested many to show me Lingam Worship in Sangam Lit. , or the Proper Name used as Sivan in Sangam Lit. and we see
Idiappam wrote: There is no Siva in the Vedas ..
bis_mala Corollary to that is: Sivam<>Sivan is Tamil word; Sivan worship originated in Tamilnadu/ (Dravidian country).
Why don’t you show me , proofs for these assumptions?
When you say Hart did not say and I quote Prof.Hart you run away, or say that is his opinion. Prof.Burrows was the incharge of Lexicon project i.e., a Head of Many Linguistic Scholars and also consult many before publishing.
His point that 20 words of Rig is Tamil is of Much more objective than any others. Burrows, Lahavery, Caldwell are of the Scholars who say Dravidians Language speakers are from Outside India, who settled in India, around 3000 BCE. Now Aryan Invasion Theory is totally dropped and comes Aryan Incoming theory and it says Aryans came from 8000BCE to 1500 BCE, in small groups. Now you can also read the book “The Real Eve : Modern Man's Journey Out of Africa (Paperback)”
by Stephen Oppenheimer which analyses DNA research, little details in Maths thread.
For the benefit of Idiyappam and Friends,
þÕìÌ §Å¾ò¾¢ø ¯Õò¾¢Ã¨É ÁðÎõ ãýÚ À¾¢¸í¸Ç¢Öõ (1:114, 2:33, 7:46) Å¢‰Ï¨Å ÁðÎõ ãýê À¾¢¸í¸Ç¢Öõ (1:154,155; 7:100) À¡¼ôÀðÎ þÕ츢ýÈÉ. þ측Äò¨¾ô §À¡Ä§Å §Å¾ ¸¡Äò¾¢Öõ Áì¸û þ¨ÈÅÉ¢ý ¸¢¨Ç¨Âô ¦ÀÕí ¸¼×Ç¡¸ô §À¡üȢɡ÷¸û. «¾É¡ø ¯Õò¾¢ÃÉ¢ýý Á¸ý ÁÕ¾Óõ «ì¸¢É¢Ôõ Å¢‰ÏÅ¢ý §¾¡Æý þóò¾¢ÃÛõ þÕìÌ §Å¾ò¾¢ø ÀÄ À¾¢¸í¸Ç¢M À¡¼ô Àð¼¡÷¸û. þÕóÐõ §Å¾¸¡Äò¾¢ø ¯Õò¾¢ÃÛõ Å¢‰Ï×õ ¸¼×û¸éìÌò ¾¨ÄÅ÷¸Ç¡¸ô §À¡üÈô Àð¼¡÷¸û. Àì- 217
§Å¾ì ¸¼×û ¯Õò¾¢Ãý ¾ý º¢Åý ±ýÀ¾üÌ §Å¾ò¾¢ø «¸îº¡ýÚ þøÄ¡ÁÄ¢ø¨Ä- "²À¢ º¢Å;” ±ýÚ þÕìÌ §Å¾õ(10:92:9) ÜÚ¸¢üÐ. ͧž¡ŠÅ¾Ã ¯ô¿¢¼¾ò¾¢ø "¯Ã¢ò¾¢Ã¨É- ¯Õò¾¢Ãº¢Å¡" "º¢Åõ" "º¢Å¡õ" "º¢Å¡" ±Éì ÜÚ¸¢È¡÷. º¢Åõ ±ýÀ¾üÌ º¡ó¾õ ±Éô ¦À¡Õû ÜÚÅ÷. Àì 89
§Å¾¢Â÷¸û ¡¸º¡¨Ä¢ø µÁÌñ¼òòüÌì ¸¢Æ츢ø âÁ¢Â¢ø ¸õÀí¸¨Ç ¿ðÎ ¦¾öÅí¸Ç¡¸ Å½í¸¢É¡÷¸û. þì¸õÀí¸¨Ç §ÅñÊì ¦¸¡ñÎ þÕìÌ 3:8ø À¡ÊÂÅ÷
"µ ÅÉŠÀ¾¢§Â! þ¨ÈÀ½¢ Òâ§Å¡÷ ¯ÉìÌ ±ñ¦½ö ¦¾öòÐ ×¾¢ «Ç¢ì¸¢È÷¸û. ¿£ §¿Ã¡¸ «ý¨É¢ý Á¡÷À¢ø þ¨ÇôÀ¡Úõ §À¡Ð ±í¸ÙìÌî ¦ºøÅõ «Õûš¡¸. §Å¾¢Â÷ ¸¢Æ츢ø ¯Â÷ò¾¢Â ¸õÀí¸û ¸¼×Ç÷¸Ç¡¸¢ì ¸¼×Ç÷ ÌÊ¢ÕìÌõ þ¼í¸ÙìÌô §À¡¸¢ýÈÉ”
±ýÚ Ó¾ü À¡¼Ä¢ø ÜȢɡ÷.
þ¾É¡ø §Å¾¸¡Äò¾¢ø ¸õÀí¸¨Ç ¿ðÎ ¦¾öÅÁ¡¸ Å½í¸¢ Åó¾Ð ¦¾Ã¢ÂÅÕõ. «ì¸¡Äò¾¢ø ¸õÀò¾¢üÌ ±ñ¦½ö §¾öòÌ «À¢§„¸ï ¦ºö¾Ð §À¡ø þ측Äò¾¢ø ¦¾öÅî º¢¨Ä¸ÙìÌõ º¢ÅÄ¢í¸ò¾¢üÌõ ±ñ¦½ö §¾öòÐ «ô§„¸ï ¦ºöÂô Àθ¢ÈÐ. º¢ÅÄ¢í¸ò¾¢üÌ «ô§„¸ï ¦ºöÔõ §À¡Ð "¾¢¨ÃÂõÀ¸õ ƒ¡Á§†" ±Éò ¦¾¡¼íÌõ §Å¾ Áó¾¢Ãõ (þÕìÌ 7:59:12, ƒ¤÷ 6:30) µ¾ô Àθ¢ÈÐ. þÐ §Å¾ ¸¡Ä¾¢Ä¢ÕóÐ º¢ÅÄ¢í¸ò¾¢üÌ «À¢§„¸ï ¦ºöР⃢ì¸ô ÀðÎ Åó¾¨¾ì ¸¡ðθ¢ÈÐ. Àì- 101
quotes from Tamil Arignar R.Shanmugasundaram- PazhanthTamil Varalaru-this book has supportive foreword by Dr.R.mathiwanan- former Director of Tamil Etymological Dictionary project (NuulNalan).
Now Bismala says Siva is Tamil Vishnu is Tamil and Idiyappam says Saivam is Tamil etc., Sorry friends, in this book’s foreword Dr.R.Mathiwanan- clearly puts Sivaniyam and Maliyam for Saivam and Vaishnavam. And even the Author’s name Shanmuga Sundaram, a name of Muruga- Shan- from Sanskrit Six and Sundaram for Beauty for Sanskrit- Dr.Mathivanan wrote it as Arumuga Alaganar.
SO any amount of repeating same and misinterpreting with roots do not prove any thing. Please give proogs from releavant period please.
There is no Dravidian or Aryan God , all are one and all derived from Vedas.
Please see my post in Kural Thread for clarifications.
Devapriya.
//Idiappam wrote: There is no Siva in the Vedas ..
bis_mala Corollary to that is: Sivam<>Sivan is Tamil word; Sivan worship originated in Tamilnadu/ (Dravidian country).
//Why don’t you show me , proofs for these assumptions?//
Well you have been given the Tamil root words. That is proof enough. But if you want to carry out a DNA test on the word Sivan, then please carry on.
//When you say Hart did not say and I quote Prof.Hart you run away, or say that is his opinion.//
Prof Hart can say whatever he wants and so can the others. What we can accept we do. What we cannot, well sorry. There is no such thing as "He is a prof, so he must be believed". An Islamic prof said that Islam is the truth. So according to you, since he is a prof, you would readily become a Muslim and give up your research on anthaNar, iyer, vEtham etc. I learnt from other professors and not Hart. Hart is not my prof. Sorry.
// Prof.Burrows was the incharge of Lexicon project i.e., a Head of Many Linguistic Scholars and also consult many before publishing.//
He has done what he could. There were also professors in Nalanda University. But they could not produce the atom bomb.
They did not know it, just like your grand dad did not know what you know and vice-versa.
//SO any amount of repeating same and misinterpreting with roots do not prove any thing. Please give proogs from releavant period please.//
You repeat ad nauseam. You change me if you can. Your quotes are unconvincing for reasons I have given before. Sorry.
//
Now Bismala says Siva is Tamil Vishnu is Tamil and Idiyappam says Saivam is Tamil etc., Sorry friends, in this book’s foreword Dr.R.Mathiwanan- clearly puts Sivaniyam and Maliyam for Saivam and Vaishnavam. And even the Author’s name Shanmuga Sundaram, a name of Muruga- Shan- from Sanskrit Six and Sundaram for Beauty for Sanskrit- Dr.Mathivanan wrote it as Arumuga Alaganar//
º¢Åõ ±ýÀÐ ¾Á¢ú¡ø. º¢Å Žì¸ò¨¾Ôõ ¦¸¡û¨¸¨ÂÔõ ÌÈ¢ì¸ "º¢Å¡É¢Âõ" ±ýÈ ¾Á¢ú ÅÊÅõ Ò¨ÉÂôÀð¼Ð.
º¢Åõ+ ¬(É) + þÂõ. º¢Åõ ¬¸¢Â ¦¸¡û¨¸. þÂõ ±ýÀРŢ̾¢ «øÄÐ À¢ý¦É¡ðÎ.
º¢Åõ (¾Á¢ú) > ¨ºÅõ (¾Á¢ú¡øÄ¢ø þÕóÐ Ò¨ÉÂôÀð¼ ºí¸¾ ¦Á¡Æ¢ ÅÊÅõ. ¾ò¾¢¾¡ó¾ ¿¡Áõ ±ÉôÀÎõ.
þý¦É¡Õ ¯¾¡Ã½õ:
§ºÃø (§ºÃý)(¾Á¢ú) > §ºÃÄõ(¾Á¢ú) > §¸ÃÇõ (Sanskritized) > ¨¸Ã¡Ç¢ (¾ò¾¢¾¡ó¾õ).
ÌÃÅ÷ (¾Á¢ú) > ÌÕ (¾Á¢ú) (¸¨¼į̀È) > Guru (Skrt) > ¦¸ªÃÅ÷ (¾ò¾¢¾¡ó¾ ¿¡Áõ ).
ÌÁâ (¾Á¢ú ) > ÌÁ¡Ã¢ ( ¾Á¢úò ¾¢Ã¢Ò) > kumari (Skrt) > ¦¸ªÁ¡Ãõ (¾ò¾¢¾¡ó¾ ¿¡Áõ ).
Saivam is the sanskritized form of the Tamil word Sivam.
Bismala wrote
////When you say Hart did not say and I quote Prof.Hart you run away, or say that is his opinion.//
Prof Hart can say whatever he wants and so can the others. What we can accept we do. What we cannot, well sorry. There is no such thing as "He is a prof, so he must be believed". An Islamic prof said that Islam is the truth. So according to you, since he is a prof, you would readily become a Muslim and give up your research on anthaNar, iyer, vEtham etc. I learnt from other professors and not Hart. Hart is not my prof. Sorry.
// Prof.Burrows was the incharge of Lexicon project i.e., a Head of Many Linguistic Scholars and also consult many before publishing.//
He has done what he could. There were also professors in Nalanda University. But they could not produce the atom bomb.
They did not know it, just like your grand dad did not know what you know and vice-versa.//
- I do not understand a single point of what you are Conveying- but making clear that your Position is “I am not amenable to any Scientific Views, My Views could be wrong, My mind is closed, but keep giving more evidences, so that I would use all my tricks to misinterpret it and make world feel that Tamils are Hypocrites””
Friend Where is Sivalingam worship or The Name “Siva” in Sangam Tamil Lit. Silapathikarm tells us about Triupathi where Lord Vishnu is worshiped in Standing Posture (.¿¢ýÈ ¾¢Õ째¡Äõ) and SriRangam as Lying Posture(¸¢¼ó¾¡ý …ÂÉõ- ÀûÇ¢¦¸¡ñ¼ ¾¢Õ§¸¡Äõ), ThiruMurugatrupadai gives the various Murugan Temples, but no Lingam is mentioned.
I look History only from the Evidences and not Blind Superstition and I understand your Arrogance of Intelligence which is without any base, and the root of Siva as per International Scholars-for all to see-from
Colin Renfrew, Professor of Archaeology at Cambridge, in his famous work, Archaeology and Language: The Puzzle of Indo-European Origins, Cambridge University Press, 1988,
”The words Shiva and Shambhu are not derived from the Tamil words civa (to redden, to become angry) and cembu (copper, the red metal), but from the Sanskrit roots si (therefore meaning “auspicious, gracious, benevolent, helpful, kind”) and sam (therefore meaning “being or existing for happiness or welfare, granting or causing happiness, benevolent, helpful, kind”), and the words are used in this sense only, right from their very first occurrence.”
Maraimalai Aadigal’s said- Óì¸ñ½ý, º¨¼Âý, Á½¢Á¢¼üÈ¡ý ±ýÛõ ¾Á¢ú áü ¦ÀÂ÷¸Ç¡Öõ "¯Õò¾¢Ãý", "º¢Åý" ±ýÛõ żëü ¦ÀÂ÷¸Ç¡Öõ ÌÈ¢ôÀ¢¼ôÀð¼ ÓØÓ¾ü ¸¼×û º¢Å¦ÀÕÁ¡§É ±ýÀÐ «í¨¸Âí¸É¢ §À¡ø ¿ýÌ Å¢Ç¹¸¡ ¿¢ü̦Áý¸. -Àì 129 ¾Á¢Æ÷ Á¾õ. Maraimalaiar agrees here Siva from Sanskrit source.
The word Kerala, comes from Sanskrit – Keralam, rather in full- for Coconut- it is Nariyal Keralam- and the earliest written source- Asoka’s inscriptions refer them as Keralo Putras.
Gouravas are referred as by that name or equivalent in Sangam to Manimekhalai and your meaningless breaking to Guru does not help, please do not spoil Tamil.
The dating of Tamil usage and Sanskrit Usage and the Literatire are “Well Established”, and international Linguists agree that Sanskrit is the Eldest Sister (for Many Mother) to Latin and Greek and Germanic Groups and Tamil uses One Third of words burrowed from Sanskrit and half that from its Branches Prakrit and Pali. Now picking this Burrowed words and showing its usage in world languages for Tamil does not make Any Good to Tamil.
Please allow me to quote from Sangam to Bakthi Movement to show Saivite Tamil Lit.
By Attacking Personally You have not allowed anybody to give the Historic evolcution of Saivam in Tamilnadu.
Devapriya
Friends,
We were trying to analyse Siva Bakthi Movement in Tamilnadu.
The very name Siva does not come till ThiruMular. The Sanskrit form Saivam comes in Manimekhalai.
Siva in Purananuru is always referred to as Vedic God.
Quiet a few Tamil Scholars have confused Tholkappiyam’s God for Kurinji Land- God of mountains Seyon- Lord Muruga as Siva, because they were of the illusion that Tholkappiyam was older literature and absence of Siva as embarrassing. Today Tholkappiyam is dated to 50-100CE, late Sangam Lit. and these forgeries need not be done at all.
The Oldest of Saiva Thirumurai Collection is “Thirumurgatrupadai” a Sangam Lit. a part of 11th Thirumurai.
Details of this in my next posting.
Devapriya
Devapriya, how would you reply to MP Prakash of 13th Distr Sahitya SammaLan who says that Kannada is 1500 years OLDER than Tamil which is only 1000 years old according to him.
Prakash said that he had international scholars on his side.
That means your date lines are wrong??
LET'S HEAR FROM YOU.
Dear Bismala,
Thank you for your post, following the hIGHLY Unscientific methods adopted by Thani-Tamil movement, now this methodis used by all.
Any Scholar can claim, what I quote is an almost Unanmous, mostly accepted by Scholars of International Acceptance.
I give an example, Pavanar in his first book dated Tholkappiyam to 2000BCE, on later findings he backed to 650BCE, while Tho.po.mi, L.Rasamankanar and all said close to 200-300BCE, today with more and more proofs coming Tholkappiyam cannot be dated earlier than 50-100CE.
As for as Kannada, During Indus Dechiphering, Parbola took words like "Thinkal" in Kannada means date and moon similar to Tamil, and few words were Tamil does not have that meaning but kannada has, so Indus Dechipherers tried Proto Dravidian close to Kannada also. But Parbola's method has not yielded and not a sucess, and that can not be quoted. Earliest Kannada Stone Inscriptions start from 4th Cen. CE, but many Tamil Brahmi Inscriptions have Kannada and Telugu words from 100 bce, Kannada or Telugu donot deny Vedic Influence.
So your purpose of this post is not understood.
\
Devapriya
.Quote:
Any Scholar can claim, what I quote is an almost Unanmous, mostly accepted by Scholars of International Acceptance
Thanks so much. But MP Prakash is also saying that what he says has been accepted by Scholars of International standing and repute!! So you see, among the "international scholars " one bunch contradicts and conflicts with another bunch...How do you decide who is acceptable to you and who is not? Can you briefly expound the methods they use? (All of them seem to rely on similar methods and identical data). Yet widely differing opinions?
I am sure most other hubbers would also like to know these things from you.
When experts give scientific evidence in courts, they are cross-examined in detail by the advocates for the plaintiff and defendants and then the judge makes a ruling to accept or reject. You do not have such facility. So, how do you accept or reject madam devapriya?
Devapriya accepts those international scholars of (dis)repute that sing her tune.
Friends,
The Purananuru Song 166 sung by ç÷ ãÄí ¸¢Æ¡÷ about §º¡½¡ðÎô âﺡüê÷ô À¡÷ôÀ¡ý ¦¸ª½¢Âý and this is in ШÈ: À¡÷ÀÀÉ Å¡¨¸.
¿ý È¡öó¾ ¿£û ¿¢Á¢÷º¨¼
ÓÐ Ó¾øÅý Å¡ö §À¡¸¡Ð,
´ýÚ ÒÃ¢ó¾ ®Ã¢ ÃñÊý,
Ú½÷ó¾ ´Õ ÓÐáø
This refers to Vedic Shiva. ´ýÚ ÒÃ¢ó¾ ®Ã¢ ÃñÊý- 2 x 2 = 4 Vedas.
Vedas has Six Branches called ஆறு அங்கங்கள்- They are also named in Manimekhalai, even few with Author’s name. This SONG is praising Vedas and Brahmins of the day and all confirm Truths, which are Confirmed by Thani-Tamil Scholars like Pavanar and SalaiIlanthiraianar.
Shiva is mostly been related to Vedas in Sangam Literature.
As for Scholars and acceptances, I just want you to look in to the link given by K.P.Aravinthan’s Thread and Thirukual Research articles Thread, morethan 40 Price winning Articles on Kural are there, None uses Pavanar, Marai malai Aadigal, PTS , Appadurai who are highly sectarian views. More When Newer and newer informations come, the Scholars can leave the Old mis-conceptions and come to more natural truths. Example- Maritmer Wheeler a Scholar of high Repute in Archaeology misinterpreted RigVeda- and also Indus Findings – saying this Verse of Cities being Hunted, many killed- such wars are the reasons for Saraswathi Valley’s demise. Complete Opposite to the Truths, None of the findings prove anything, and Rig Verses also do not say a War, is the correct interpretation.
Further to Burrows Lexicon claiming many Indo-European words as Dravidian, the research by otherside proved :
Yes, indeed. The Dravidian Etymological Dictionary of Burrow and Emeneau contains over 5,000 etyma and it has been shown that over 4,000 of these etyma have Indo-Aryan, Munda cognates (cf. http://www.hindunet.org/saraswati/Indian_Lexicon which contains over 8,000 semantic clusters.)
But even today Quoting PTS,Pavanar and Wheeler etc., when further more research opinions have come, is the method adopted by Thani-Tamil and its inspirations as Kannada Mr.Prakash article and I can answer them myself or contact experts and then reply that in an appropriate threads.
Please maintain these thread for Shiva and Saivam only.
DEVAPRIYA
There is no Siva or SHiva is Vedas. He is "discovered" there only through interpretation of some scholars. Siva =? Rudra.Quote:
Shiva is mostly been related to Vedas in Sangam Literature.
On the other hand, you have been contending that Siva is not a Tamil word and Siva does not therefore exist in Sangam Lit.
Your quoted statement is therefore a paradox.
You are therefore saying: 0 + 0 = 1.
OR IT MAY BE THAT YOU ARE CHANGING SLOWLY.- for the better or for the worse?
Dear Friends,
I HAVE quoted Tamil Scholars and a book with the Introduction of Prof.MAthiwanan, and also from Cambridge University Scholar- the very name Shiva and Linga Worships are in Vedas.
Sangam does not have the name; wHAT IS YOUR Problem?
Why do you want to distirb Indian Unity as the Christian Missionaries. by Artificial Dravidiayan race myths.
Let us look at Shive in both.
Devapriya
Tamil scholars (not every) are conditioned by their own religious and political beliefs. The Europeans learnt from the Tamil scholars and poets. So they follow their teachers. Hence you need to be objective. Siva is a Tamil word. Linga worship grew up in TN. Siva (verb) > sivaththal. siva+ an = sivan. This etymology is in accord with the fact other deity names such as chEyOn, chevvEL all have red colour as the theme. Linga > ilingkam cognate with ilanguthal, (oLi cheythal).Quote:
Dear Friends, I HAVE quoted Tamil Scholars and a book with the Introduction of Prof.MAthiwanan, and also from Cambridge University Scholar- the very name Shiva and Linga Worships are in Vedas.
Quote:
Sangam does not have the name; wHAT IS YOUR Problem?
Do you know that a lot of vulgar words used in Tamil (heard when some low people abuse each other ) are also not in Sangam or Tolkappiyam. Do you want to claim them all for Sanskrit? Please wake up your ideas.
Quote:
Why do you want to distirb Indian Unity as the Christian Missionaries. by Artificial Dravidiayan race myths.
You are breaking Indian unity by saying Tamil has no place in the consideration of sivam and lingam etc., Dravidian is a family of languages. I never said it is a race.
What do you mean by this? That Sivan belongs to Tamil and Sanskrit??Quote:
Let us look at Shive in both.
Friends,
We need to understand that We do not have a Single Sentence of Lit, which is Pre-Vedic.
So to say separate Dravidian or Tamil are meaningless Bluffs.
Friends, please go through my post in Tirukural Thread page19, in Tamil Literature.
Siva is the Vedic Head and has been absorbed to Tamil.
Devapriya
Friends, please read in the same thread those replies from me and other hubbers after reading Devapriya's bluff. You can confirm for yourself the extent of her lies!!
Vedas were in oral tradition for a long time (estimated 1500yrs) and were reduced to writing 400 ACE or so!!
Tolkappiyam is pre-Vedic. Many Sangam stanzas are pre-Vedic.
Veda is from Tam: "vetham". A Tamil word.
Dear Friends,
Bismala doesnot undewrstand what is replied, every his of blabber is replied.
These Dubious Thani Tamil Scholars took few odd verses positive only about Tamil Civilisation and extensively used Kural for their Highly Partial works.
I give-Historian M. G. S. Narayanan, who finds in Sangam literature –
“no trace of another, indigenous, culture other than what may be designated as tribal and primitive.” And concludes :
“The Aryan-Dravidian or Aryan-Tamil dichotomy envisaged by some scholars may have to be given up since we are unable to come across anything which could be designated as purely Aryan or purely Dravidian in the character of South India of the Sangam Age. In view of this, the Sangam culture has to be looked upon as expressing in a local idiom all the essential features of classical “Hindu” culture. M. G. S. Narayanan, “The Vedic-Puranic-Shastraic Element in Tamil Sangam Society and Culture,” in Essays in Indian Art, Religion and Society, p. 128.
Nilakanta Sastri goes a step further and opines,
“There does not exist a single line of Tamil literature written before the Tamils came into contact with, and let us add accepted with genuine appreciation, the Indo-Aryan culture of North Indian origin.” “THE HARAPPAN] RELIGION IS SO CHARACTERISTICALLY INDIAN AS HARDLY TO BE DISTINGUISHED FROM STILL LIVING HINDUISM.”
Colin Renfrew, Professor of Archaeology at Cambridge, Archaeology and Language: The Puzzle of Indo-European Origins, Cambridge University Press, 1988,
“IT IS DIFFICULT TO SEE WHAT IS PARTICULARLY NON-ARYAN ABOUT THE INDUS VALLEY CIVILIZATION.”
Kenoyer, Jonathan Mark, Ancient Cities of the Indus Valley Civilization (Karachi & Islamabad : Oxford University Press & American Institute of Pakistan Studies, 1998) -“MANY SCHOLARS HAVE TRIED TO CORRECT THIS ABSURD THEORY [OF AN ARYAN INVASION], BY POINTING OUT MISINTERPRETED BASIC FACTS, INAPPROPRIATE MODELS AND AN UNCRITICAL READING OF VEDIC TEXTS. HOWEVER, UNTIL RECENTLY, THESE SCIENTIFIC AND WELL-REASONED ARGUMENTS WERE UNSUCCESSFUL IN ROOTING OUT THE MISINTERPRETATIONS ENTRENCHED IN THE POPULAR LITERATURE.”
devapriya
Sangam litterature is very old as the vedic one...
There must be a strong relationship between the two literrature..
This article has been newly edited
Dear Friends,
Vedas are dated by International Scholars at 2000BCE, and Sangam Lit 200BCE - 200 CE, Tholkappiyam to 100CE.
Vedas have Siva and Lingam.
Where? -- give the lines please!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Uppuma
Brought forward for the benefit of New Readers
Brought forward to the benefit of New Readers
Dear virarajendra
You are doing an excellent job, but not sadly not many people participate in such valuable discussions...and my knoweldge is limited in Tamil literature, as i have migarted aboev at a very young age, hence i did not learn Thamizh properly
please continue your service for maheswar
thanks a lot sir
Brought forward for the benefit of New Readers
Brought forward
The most ancient Shiva lingam known to mankind is standing at the crossroads. Sri Parasurameshwara temple, located in Gudimallam, a hamlet 13 km from Renigunta junction in Chittoor district in southern Andhra Pradesh, has a 2,200-year old history as the longest continuously worshipped Shiva temple in the world. Its fascinating past and equally gripping present have culminated in a classic confrontation between modern values and ancient traditions.
apperantley this is where Parusuram' worhisped Eashwar, hense called Parasurameshwar (parasuramamrin Esahwar), similar to Rameshwaram
has any one been to this temple in Andra Pradesh?
Quiet a lot of information on Gudimallam here.
http://yahwehfraud.indiainteracts.in...ngs-to-500bce/
இந்த வலைப்பு மிக அழகாக குடிமல்லம் சிவலிங்கம் பற்றி கூறுகிறது.
தொன்மையான குடிமல்லம் லிங்கம்
December 7, 2009 by ankaraikrishnan
http://ankaraikrishnan.wordpress.com...mallam-lingam/