//Thiru Paramanathan and he said we have invent these words so they come in use//
Thiru Nedunchezian avarkale!!
vanakkam.
I agree with thiru Paramanathan.
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//Thiru Paramanathan and he said we have invent these words so they come in use//
Thiru Nedunchezian avarkale!!
vanakkam.
I agree with thiru Paramanathan.
//Is silai//
The root of this word is chil meaning small. When people first made statues, they were smaller than life size and it was gradually that they made bigger ones. That is why the root word is chil, meaning small.
siRpam also means something small. chil+pu+am.= something small. Later there were larger ones.
People have forgotten the root word and its meaning. The result in such event is that the words become independent of root-meaning. According to Western etymologists, that is good for the growth of the language. So, according to this concept, (example) poyilai is better than pukai ilai. When you say pukai ilai, the term shows its internal split clearly and makes one think of smoke on one hand and leaf on the other and causes a hindrance in the mind. The mind may have to travel through smoke, leaf and then tobacco. So the commoner does not want such hindrance. He just wants to refer to one item with one word very quickly. So he says piyilai instead of pukai ilai. The words corrupt and inseparably amalgamate into one. ¦º¡ü¸û "´Õ¦º¡ýÉ£÷¨Áô Àð¼É. Those objecting should read western philologists first for a grasp of basic principles. But Tamil teachers and professors would stand in the way and say that poyilai is wrong. In language development, there is no rights and wrongs. Language is for communication, fast and unhindered communication. If more people keep on saying poyilai (assume so for argument), the pukaiyilai camp loses. Democracy is at work in language development. I am not saying this. Swedish and English philologists say so!
We must travel back in time to the stone age when people had few good equipment for their stone work. We must ask ourselves, what would have been the position then? Did they start making the greatest statue first and "progress" to smaller ones? or the other way round?
Not everything that stands is statue; not everthing that is small is silai!! If your listener objects, have ready answers.
Everything is contained in the language. So the study of language would involve everything.
contd
So, if someone says that when he looks at the word silai, the concept of "smallness" is not apparent. I have said some time ago: Tolkappiyar laid down that ¦Á¡Æ¢ ¦À¡Õ𠸡ýõ ŢƢôÀò §¾¡ýÈ¡."
"¦Á¡Æ¢ ¦À¡Õ𠸡ýõ ŢƢôÀò §¾¡ýÈ¡."
¦º¡ü¦À¡Õû ±ýÀÐ ¦Á¡Æ¢¨Â ¬Ã¡ö ¦ºöÀÅÛìÌò ¾¡ý ¦¾Ã¢Ôõ. ±ýÈ¡÷ §¾Å§ÉÂô À¡Å¡½÷. À¢ÈÕìÌò ¦¾Ã¢ÂÅ¢ø¨Ä ±ýÚ ÅÕó¾§Åñ¼¡õ ¾¢Õ ¦¿Îý¦ºÆ¢Âý «Å÷¸§Ç. Á£ñÎõ Á£ñÎõ ¦º¡øÖí¸û.
ºó¾¢ÃÛìÌ ÁÉ¢¾ý ¯ñ¨Á¢ø þýÛõ §À¡¸Å¢ø¨Ä ±ýÚ ´Õ À¡¾¢Ã¢Â¡÷ ¦º¡øĢ즸¡ñÊÕ츢ȡ÷. «¾ü¸¡¸ "¿¡º¡"¨Å ãÊÅ¢¼ÓÊÔÁ¡!? ¿ÁÐ §º¨Å ¦¾¡¼Õõ.
¡õ ¦ÀüÈ þýÀõ ¦ÀÚ¸ þù¨Å¸õ.
//They seem to stand strong on the point that 'foreign' etymologists don't accept it and that we can't seem to convince others that these words like "Vithavai; Viduvai" etc as Thamizh root word.//
Western etymologists may not have known of the word vidu in Tamil and many of them looked at the Skrt dictionary for roots but did not look at other language dictionaries. Did anyone of those etymologists expressly made a statement to say that we have considered the very close-sounding word in Tamil pronounced vidu. Its sound and meaning seem to coincide, But,all the same we reject it!!"
They made their ruling in absolute ignorance of the existence of the Tamil word "vidu" then!!
Here, we can apply the principle in legal philosophy. If a point was never argued before a judge by the advocates and that judge makes a ruling on a certain point of law, the ruling is not binding on the lower courts and the lower courts are free to expound the principles by which they should decide. Reason: the judge made the ruling in oversight. He did not consider or failed to consider or did not have the benefit of the arguments to consider that point on which he made the ruling. Very sound?
So, the western etymologists decided under circumstances in which they did not have the benefit of knowing the existence of vidu.
I have great respect for Prof Max Muller. He took the same route as William Jones and thought that Sanskrit literature was the earliest in point of time in the South Asian subcontinent. They were all pioneers: they did not have the benefit of facts and figures that subsequent linguists would unearth as time went on. They expressed an opinion on Sanskrit without any external evidence. They merely had the Skrt literature in their hands and looking at it, they opined that the lit was the oldest in the world.
They believed that other Indians were not civilised until the Aryans came and tought them everything including their languages!! Why did they believe that? What evidence? Nothing! Their learned opinions only. A number of Skrt words were sounding similar to German, French, Lithuanian etc. That is all they had.
How many stone inscriptions were in Skrt? What was the date of the earliest Skrt stone inscription? So how can Skrt be 5000 years old? Some Prakrit , Tamil and Pali writings predated Skrt. If Skrt was the lingua franca, why wern't the stone inscriptions in Skrt? Why in Prakrit? Why in Pali? You ask them gently but firmly!!
That is the way to take them along the road to thinking.
In the event you manage to corner them, they would say: Neduncheziyan, all world languages borrowed from one another!
Let's leave it.
Thiru Neduncheziyan avarkale!!
Another way of approach is the concept of Suruthi and Smiruthi.
Much of Skrt was being chanted verbally for many decades and a few centuries before they were written down finally in about 400 AD. This stage of the language is known as "Shuruthi" or Suruthi. (from Tamil suraththal > to flow out ).
So the development pattern for Skrt would be:
suruthi (verbal tradition) > Smiruthi (written form).
It was considered unacceptable to reduce them to writing. There is a certain way to chant and writing them down would result in a loss of that "divine" sound. The Bramanas were vehimently objecting!! Many of their verbal literature base (vedas) would be lost and forgotten before they decided to write.
Since it was all verbal, it follows that they did not need any writing system. They later used Aramaic and finally settled on pre-existing Devanagari ( a writing system that some researchers say were developed by Nagathiivu people ). - the naaga worshippers and not the Brahma worshippers, as the etymology would speak for itself. (This is like the Latin maxim res ipsa loquitur in civil law). You ask your lawyer friend about this concept - he will tell you, but I do not know if he will charge you a fee.
But what was the Tamil language development pattern?
speech + writing all the way!! all the way!!. literature! stone inscriptions! other epigraphs! so many found........!
Thiru Neduncheziyan!! the earliest Tamil stone inscription found in Jaffna is I remember dated 300 BCE whereas Skrt lifterature was documented only in 400 ACE (AD) - a gap of 700 years.
Tolkappiyam and Sanga ilakkiyam were not chanted down.......They were written records.
WE HAD WRITTEN RECORDS BEFORE ANY OF THE INDO-EUROPEAN LANGUAGES.......!! I HAVE POINTED OUT MANY CHINESE WORDS SO CLOSE TO OUR TAMIL. THE JAPS have found so many Jap words so close our Tamil words!!
So, ask them: why do you still cling on to the 18 century etymologists and why must you close your eyes to the latest discoveries and researches?
I shall in turn deal with all interesting questions brought up by you.
In the meantime, get a copy of VADAMOZHI VARALAARU by Devaneyap Paavaanar and read it happily.
Do not worry. The more stubborn they are, the more enlightened you become. If no one brought up anything, we too would become rusty....
If nobody contested any case, the field of law would not have developed.......
What is hidden is only hidden to be revealed.
I will come back....
Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae!
nanRi
Yes you are right..we should tell them again and again. However they prefer the name Peruvankiyam instead of Nathasuram and so on. Anyway I printed some pages of your explanation and gave it to Thiru Sivam Paramanathan and he was eager to read them.
Please check your e-mail.
nanRi, paNivu Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae!
Thiru Neduncheziyan avarkale!
A Tamil teacher has coined these words:
meter - niittar
ton - sumaiyam
kilogram - pannuuRi.
See whether they sound good whilst I search for words that might have been put out by the TN govt or other lexicographers.
NanRi, paNivaana anbu. :idea:
contd..
//they prefer the name Peruvankiyam instead of Nathasuram //
Preference is OK. Between two or more Tamil words of the same meaning, one may prefer one and another may prefer the other word(s).
nanRi paNivaana anbu.
SEASON'S greetings T0 YOU, S.P., brother Geno and all other thamizanbarkaL.
Thiru Neduncheziyan avargale!
A paragraph from "Dravidian as the Source of Indo-European" :
That Sir Jones who knew more than two dozen languages, and was an expert in Sanskrit, Greek, Latin, Germanic, and Persian, and who was thoroughly convinced that not only Greek and Latin, but Sanskrit had sprung from the same common source, did not consider Dravidian in any aspect of its identity may also be adduced to certain other factors: Neither during his lifetime, nor until scores of years later, many important discoveries or findings which could have directly or indirectly influenced his thinking about the identity of the common source had taken place. The ancient civilizations of the fertile triangle such as the ancient Indian, the Sumerian, and the Egyptian had not come to light. Many ancient scripts had not been discovered or their languages divined. Rev. Robert Caldwell had not published his monumental 'A Comparative Grammar of the Dravidian or South-Indian Family of Languages' (1st ed.; 1856; London) even though he had considered only four languages as belonging to the group of south Indian languages which he called Dravidian. In fact, no one had heard the name Dravidian as the designation of the family of Indian languages until Rev. Caldwell, of all the scores of names of ancient Indian tribes listed in ancient Indian texts, selected it and formally introduced to the world. No Dravidian dictionary had been published, and it was not known that the Dravidian language family constitutes at least twenty-seven languages. And most importantly, such significant linguistic phenomena as the Indo-European phonetic correspondences had not been discovered, and the scholars had not recognized or reconstructed the Indo-European roots from which all the hundreds of thousands of Indo-European words have ensued. Compared to the present Age of Information, the 18th century, when a ship took about five months to reach India from England, was like the Dark Age, and Sir Jones was part of this world complete with its own follies.
K. Kumar
It(IE) from ithu(T/Dr)
Here(IE) from i (T/Dr) ; i > hi. hi+ ere (old suffix ) - here.
There: from T/Dr : ithu + a ; a (munnilaich chuttu). itha > there.
T: u = in front. (avan, ivan and uvan). u > English: You, address person in front.
T athu: that(IE). a+ thu = thu + a (IE). (syllables swap). thua> that!!
i + an (T) = ivan; = he.
i > (h)i > he.
chi - Tamil feminine gender suffix. T: chi = IE: shi.
If you get down to read details, too many.
Furthermore Skrt is only 1/3 IE. It is a made-up "language" of later years, mistaken to be of antiquity by Muller and Jones.
What are suffixes now, at a very early stage in T/Dr , they were complete words. It is due to constant usage they shrunk to being suffixes. IE sto;; preserve such words as complete words.
So thiru Neduncheziyan avarkale!!
The old etymologists of Indo -Euro languages knew not about Tamil /Dravidian and they did not even know vidu existed and could be the root of their words in Latin and Greek!!
Whether they are IE etymologists or gods, only considered opinions are valid. Otherwise useless and it is oversight. One who relies on such etymologists is like the blind being led by the blind.
Presently, linguists say that if you can pick out 200 words ( of Tamil from IE), it is good enough to start an investigation. How many did Lahovery pick out in Skrt?
NanRi. Anbu.
//A Tamil teacher has coined these words:
meter - niittar
ton - sumaiyam
kilogram - pannuuRi.
See whether they sound good whilst I search for words that might have been put out by the TN govt or other lexicographers. //
nanRi Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae. I will pass on this information. I went to the Thamizh online source www.tamilvu.org or something. I searched for the word 'ton' and ended up with some result spelling 'ton' in Thamizh. That site is the Thamizh Virtual University or something.
I don't know if there was a way to get the information from there...anyway I got dissapointed by the result. I think one book which was about "Chozhars" had all these scales on the back. Chozhars had "Thamizh aLavu" for various things and they were amazing but I forgot the name of the book...that book was about "Chozhars." Sadly it didn't explain the root of the word 'Chozhar' like you explained and gave other possibilities.
Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae
'it' from Thamizh 'ithu' and the other roots you gave for Indo European 'he' 'she' etc is very INTERSTING!
Did the word 'kUlam' come from the word 'kU' which mean 'World'?
Season Greeting to you and to other Thamizhars!
nanRi, paNivu
Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae!
These are the informations I have found on the net.
TON:
[Middle English tonne, a measure of weight. See tun.]
[Middle English, from Old English tunne, possibly of Celtic origin.]
http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&oi=di...3Dton%26r%3D67
The website 'www.dictionary.com' indicate that the word 'ton' to have come from the word 'tun.' I think there is a connection between that root 'tun' to the Thamizh word 'thUn' which mean pillar.
I referred to a Thamizh dictionary I have (a small dictionary). Under the leter 'thU' these words are given which I believe could be equivalent to the word 'tun' or atleast has some connection interm of the definition of 'ton' and perhaps of the root of the word 'ton'.
thU:
thU = [one definition is] valimai (strong)
thUkku = thonkum poruL, oru nirai aLavu, nirai kOl
thUNiththal = paruththal (growing big...)
perhaps the word thUkku is the equivalent of the English vocab 'ton.'
Now the word 'METER' (measurment).
This is the definition the website 'www.dictionary.com' provide.
Meter
[French -mètre, from Greek metron, measure. See m-2 in Indo-European Roots.]
{m-2 was typed as m with an e above the line but probably text error here}
[Middle English, from Old English meter, and from Old French metre both from Latin metrum, from Greek metron, measure, poetic meter. See m-2 in Indo-European Roots.]
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=meter
When I looked at the definition above and saw that in Greek it meant 'measure' by the word 'metron.' I suddenly came to the conclusion of calling 'meter' as 'aLavi.' Then I searched in the website www.tamilvu.org and to my suprise they had the SAME DEFINITION! However I think these people haven't done alot of research! aLavi may not suit for the word 'meter' since measuring something is called 'aLavi' and it'd be difficult perhaps. Anyhow they also had 'pAeraLavi' for macro meter.
meter - aLavi
Ü÷õ¤
http://www.tamilvu.org/slet/servlet/...2Fo3300001.htm
KILO from Kilogram etc:
Kilo
[French, from Greek khlioi, thousand. See gheslo- in Indo-European Roots.]
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=kilo
I do not know the root of the word 'gheslo.' It could be from Thamizh. Anyway the given definition is clear that kilo means 'thousand' and thats where that prefix came from. Hence we should use an abbrieviation or a word that means thousand in Thamizh.
Gram:
Gram
[French gramme, from Late Latin gramma, a small weight, from Greek, something written, small weight. See gerbh- in Indo-European Roots.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=gram
Gram here means a 'small weight' and again I do not know the source of the word 'gerbh' and that could be a Thamizh word. The small weight could be weight of an atom or an electron or a photon etc. However Thamizhp pulavars also referred 'kaduku' to a small weight although some others referred 'aNu' as a small weight (I do not konw if such argument took place). Nevertheless we should consider a small weight interm of its use and perhaps we could consider any grains or something that weigh small and measure up to 1 gram and which belongs to the Thamizh Community and which have been around with Thamizhars for a long time.
Perhaps 'kaduku,' or 'eLLu' or something. Maybe we could call Kilogram as 'aAkadu' taking the aA from aAyiram and shortening 'kaduku' to 'kadu' if we can by the Thamizh Language Structure.
//A Tamil teacher has coined these words:
meter - niittar
ton - sumaiyam
kilogram - pannuuRi. //
Let others consider these words and post their views.
nanRi Thiru A P MASILMANI avargaLae, paNivu :-)
Thamizhar ellorukkum, iniya puththANdu vAzhththukkaL
Iniya pongal vAzhththukkaL!!!
Mr. Masilamani,
I had read your earlier posts on Sugar (Chini). You had mentioned the work 'Chini' is Tamil origin. The other Tamil word 'Sakkarai' for sugar is it Indo-European of origin, as it is close to German Zukkar/ Eng Sugar??? or it the other way the Tamil word for Sugar is the root word for the IE languages.
I had this doubt as I 'am not sure about the Origin of Sugar itself, was it originally an Asian item that was later known to the west or was it the other way.. Pls enlighten me on this...
Thanks
"TamilenUir"]
//.... earlier posts on Sugar (Chini).... mentioned the word 'Chini' is Tamil origin.//
The word CHEENI is not a Tamil-word... but added to Tamil Vocabulary as a "Thisai-Chol"... Its origin is yet being disputed whether Asian or Europian.
The True Tamil word for Sugar... so called Cheeni.. is... AKKAARAM...
... which word is profusely seen in the ancient Tamil-Literature too.
The Narasimhaswamy at Sholingapuram has been addressed by Alwars in Tamil... as ..."Akkaara- Kaniyae" .
// The other Tamil word 'Sakkarai' for sugar is of Indo-European origin, as it is close to German Zukkar/ Eng Sugar??? or it the other way the Tamil word for Sugar is the root word for the IE languages.//
The Origin for the Word Sugar... is the Portugese Word.. "CURGAR" meaning Sweet in that Language.
//I had this doubt as I 'am not sure about the Origin of Sugar itself, was it originally an Asian item that was later known to the west or was it the other way.. Pls enlighten me on this...//
Sugar was originally manufactured at a place called "ASKA" in Philippines, where the Sugar-cane growth was very plenty in those days.
That is why most of the Indian people used to call the Sugar as ASKA or Aska-Sarkkarai in Tamil during the British days.
Even though Sugar-cane so called Karumbu in Tamil was not new to India... since grown for more than a thousand years... Indians were only manufacturing ... Gurh / "VELLAM" out of it and Not the Sugar which product was a new Introduction to the Indian market by the Portugese Traders... prior to British entry into India.
History says... that during Pre-British-period... the Overseas trade with India... by Exports and Imports... was carried out prominently by the Persian and Portugese Traders...
Hence we are able to have lot of Persian and Portugese words mixed up in all the Indian Languages including Tamil, like
.. Sari,... Jannal... Chummaadu... Dhinusu...Kadudhaasi,... etc.
Portugese Traders introduced and encouraged the growth of Sugar-cane and further the manufacture of Sugar-products in India... which they exported to Europian countries, where Sugar-cane cannot grow.
Till then the Europians were manufacturing Sugar out of Beet-Root .. which was costlier as also of limited Quantity unable to meet the High quantum of Western Market-demand
Not only Sugar but also Chilly, Tobacco, Coffee, Rubber, Tea, Chocolate(Cocoa)... etc. were the new Introductions by these Traders to India for Growth and Manufacture of End-products... for their Trade.
Arunagirinathar used the word 'Sarkkarai' in his Thirupugazh! "pakkarai vichitharamani ...... Sarkkarai parupudan nei...."Quote:
Originally Posted by Sudhaama
Arunagiri lived before the portugese era (around the 1400s).
The botanical name for Sugar Cane - Saccharum spp. - of medieval latin origin - resembles 'Sarkkarai'.
If the word 'Sarkkarai' is of non Tamil origin - introduced from IE languages, why is that word (or similar words) does not exixt in other north Indian languages?
// If the word 'Sarkkarai' is of non Tamil origin - introduced from IE languages, why is that word (or similar words) does not exixt in other north Indian languages? //
Hello Idiappam,
I think in Hindi Sugar is called by 'Shakkar' which seems to be very very colse to the IE word (Sugar in Eng and Zukkar in German)...
Let's not include Hindi here - that has an heavy influence of Arabic! What is Bengali for 'sugar' - just curious!
Mr. Idiappam....
I am already well-known to you... from the Old Hub... Are you able to Recognize me?
Here is my Reply to your Questions.
//Arunagirinathar used the word 'Sarkkarai' in his Thirupugazh! "pakkarai vichitharamani ...... Sarkkarai parupudan nei.... Arunagiri lived before the portugese era (around the 1400s).//
Although Thiruppuhazh is a Divine-Recitation... Linguists Scholars assert ... that it contains lot of Sanskrit words alongside some Thisai- Chorhkalh also... Such alien words from Portugese, Persian and other Languages too are admixed in this high Tamil-Literature... they say. But I don't remember now the specific Examples to Quote.
Saint Arunagirinathar's Period is highly disputed by Historians... Most of them convincingly put forth that his period ... must about just 600 years back.... During that period Tamilians used highly Sanskrit-mixed Tamil as of Swami Arunagirinathar.
//The botanical name for Sugar Cane - Saccharum spp. - of medieval latin origin - resembles 'Sarkkarai'.//
What you Quote is for Sugar-Cane but not for Sugar itself.
In Telugu... the "Sugar-cane" is called.... "CHERUKKU" .... Hindi and almost N.I : "GANNA".
Sugar is called SHAKKAR....in almost all the North-Indian Languages... from the Arabic-Root.... since the Sugar was introduced to Middle-East too.... and so the influence of Purtugese Root might have set its foot there too.
//If the word 'Sarkkarai' is of non Tamil origin - introduced from IE languages, why is that word (or similar words) does not exixt in other north Indian languages?
//I think in Hindi Sugar is called by 'Shakkar' which seems to be very very colse to the IE word (Sugar in Eng and Zukkar in German)...//
//Let's not include Hindi here - that has an heavy influence of Arabic!//
// What is Bengali for 'sugar' - just curious!//
In Bengali, Oriya and Assamese... Sugar is called "CHEENI"
In Tamil it is also called so in the Spoken Language... because... in the latter days after Persians shifted their Trading activities more towards South America, Africa and Europian Countries... due to higher trade prospects and Profits... Chinese flooded the Indian Market.... concentrating more in Madras (Chennai).... resulting in the Main Bazaar Road of the City was called...
China-Bazaar Road..... presently NS.Bose Road... from Pookkadai to Parrys.
Since they had exploited and monopolised Tamilian market with their product... it was named as CHEENI...in Tamil too.... Two Names for one.
Same case with the Eastern part of India too... during that Time.
In the Sothern part of Tamilnadu Cheeni is different from Sarkkarai.
Cheeni ... = ... Sugar -- Sarkkarai. = Powdered Gudh/ Jaggery ( Vellam )
However... the Botanical Name for Sugar-cane... resembling... "Sarkkarai" ... is also a Good-point.
Thank you Mr Sudhaama, for your kind explantion. And I am truly sorry I don't recognise you! Unveil please!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sudhaama
Hello Friends,
Recently I came across the German word for Round and it is 'Runde' This is very close to our Tamil word 'URunde'. So is the word for Head - 'Rundam' as it is round(I'am not sure if it is a Sanskrit word taken up by Tamil).
can anyone give me an insight into these words, the language from which this word originated and your reasons please...
Thanks
Srini
Thiru A P MASILAMANI avargaLae!
vannakkam
I recently come across this conflict over the name 'Sivan.' Recently on a tv show, Thiru Paappaiya clarified this name as something to have originated from the word 'sinan' which he gave definition as in that name indicated the 'Samanar'(Jain) God or the Buddhar. I also have found a Tamil dictionary denoting the meaning of this word 'sinan' being used for the 'atukak kadavul' which is of Samanar (Jainism) and or for Buddhar of bowththam (buddhism). What is your explanation to such issue?
nanRi, paNivu
Vannakkam,
The Thamizh people face issue interm of coming up with the specific names for Army, Navy, Air Force ranking levels. Once Thiru A P MASILAMANI said here under this topic something like that because Thamizh people had group of people traditionally being involved in the military and whenthat when things went under foreigner hand and through time, these group of people formed into castes etc. I would like Thiru A P MASILAMANI to refresh on this issue if he can. Then I have told him about what Thiru Paranathan told me, which was that we could use the names of the trees like 'vEmpu' and the flowers of Thamizh Sanga Academy time to come up with these ranks. Although the European system or any foreign system is being used, there is no need for us to "follow" their foot print. I haven't come across any Thamizh ranking level that has been invented yet, and since only LTT is the only organization which is Thamizh and has Naval and Arm and Air Forces and the Thamizh Nadu with its state police, there hasn't been any enforcement yet occured to invent any ranking levels. Thus please input your comments regarding this and participate and we may come up with a new ranking system. Please take in consideration that we can't just apply names without reasoning and correlating them with the level of ranking by mean of nature or historical relation to the ranks. Not only that but these names have to Thamizh and Thamizh alone.
nanRi paNhivu
Sanskrit was evolved from tamil. All sanskrit words will have root in tamil. Most of the sanskrit words contain a combination of two or three tamil words phonetically shrinked in nature.
We can give lot of examples for that.
Kallvan or Kallan was not evolved from the root kallham as sudhaama claims. It was evolved from the word 'Kal' which means beauty or 'mayankavaikkira'. Most of the gods of second century specified as 'kallar'. Thirupathy venkatachalapathy is called 'Sri kallar Piran'. Think about 'Kalllagar' a god in Madurai is called 'Chokkanathar'.Kalam and kalar were also evolved from the root word 'Kal'.
Mutharaiyar = Muthu + arayar. In this,arayar was evolved from 'araiyar' which was later arasar and now rajar in sanskrit. Not tharaiyar and the story chera,chola and pandya control.
Sarkarai= Sarukkarai=saru+karai. It is taken from 'Karumbu saru' . That's why sarukkarai=sarkarai=sakkra=sakura=sugura=sugar.
Think about the word Karu phonetical connotation with/rhymes with saru (root word for karai which means wall or 'suvar'). Suvar cannot the distorted. Karai also cannot be distorted from cloth.
When sugarcane saru spread on cloth it cannot be removed easily.
And from Cheeni was from 'Srini'- Cheerni(tamil)= Cheer+n+e- 'Cheer' here means beauty. There was a custom in any language white and cleaniliness are called as beauty. Think about 'Cheer-sanathy' for bride.
Thiru or Srini means beauty.
for example the name srinivasan.
Sarkarai= Sarukkarai=saru+karai. It is taken from 'Karumbu saru' . That's why sarukkarai=sarkarai=sakkra=sakura=sugura=sugar.
Think about the word Karu phonetical connotation with/rhymes with saru (root word for karai which means wall or 'suvar'). Suvar cannot be distorted. Karai also cannot be distorted from cloth.
When sugarcane saru spread on cloth it cannot be removed easily.
And Cheeni was from 'Srini'- Cheerni(tamil)= Cheer+n+e- 'Cheer' here means beauty. There was a custom in any language white and cleaniliness are called as beauty. Think about 'Cheer-sanathy' for bride.
Thiru or Srini means beauty.
for example the name srinivasan.
Dear friends,
I happen to come across the discussion regarding some roots of words in this thread.
When we analyse the root of any word we have to keep one thing in mind is that the people who coined the new word must have some perception about already existing words.
Hence the root of the coined word and the old word will be same and will have same meaning.
Tamil is natural language and you can observe lot of words formulated with same roots.
All other artificial languages wont have that kind of root words.
Sitpikal and silai had same root 'sil' which means a small piece of stone.
Small pieces are carved out in stones and so the words formed.
kavai had root in 'kavvu'- a verb based.
kavanam, kavithai, kavarthal and kavasam-Kavvu is the root specifies 'abstract of whole thing'
kovaipalam-kovapalam- kovam+palam- Kovam is always specified by red. So red palam is kovappalam -kovaipalam.
Konam-Ko+am Ko-top most position-ucchi in tamil. konal,koni are other words having same root.
kalasam-kalayam-kal+am, rigid and made out of stone is the meaning. Later all kalasams are covered by gold or Impone(Alloy)
f.s.gandhi
The root of words
Cauvery= kaviri= kal+viri- Kal means base. Compare words kalkol(base) iduthal,kalvai,kal-leg(Human element).
Therefore a 'wide base' is the meaning.
widhavai= vidu+avai. Avai here specifies the marriage sitting.
You would have watched the phrase 'sabayil mothiram podurathu
thane chiranthathu"- Putting ring in sabai is best. sabai evolved from avai.
Valluvar says koothattu avai.
Hence who unfortunately last the chances of entering into the avai
or marriage/husband /companion naturally might be called vidhavai.
f.s.gandhi
Words root:
samutthiram=sam+mutthiram- sam is from um and am means clubbing.
Ezham=Ellem=suriyan
Elenkai=ellem+kai- suryan ray.
Ellem word is there in manimekalai.
Compare the word ellam-anaithum-all directions-sun has rays in all directions.
Ellem was a god of earlier tamils.
In the same meaning it is in elamiyan language of mesopatomia.
f.s.gandhi
Sugarcane is (one of six species of) a tall tropical southeast Asian grass. The plant and its
product features prominently in the history of Europe in the 1700s and 1800s. Whilst the
colonial powers could have introduced large scale growing of sugarcane in parts of India,
it cannot be accepted that any European power introduced the plant for the first time in
especially South India.
The peoples of South India have had connections with SEAsia well before the arrival of
the Europeans. Raja Raja Chozan’s military expeditions covered various parts of South
East Asia. Much before that, it is said that even Karikalan’s forces reached SEA.
“The home of sugarcane is New Guinea and Papuans are thought to be closely related to
the San bushmen, who migrated from southeast Africa in prehistoric times to populate
southern India and, later, nearby Australia.” We are not without recent as well as remote
connections with sugarcane areas.
Tamil literary sources have reasons to believe that Athiamaan’s predecessors introduced
sugarcane to Tamilnadu for the first time from SEA.
The word Karumpu is a Tamil word and sugarcane was so named for its dark green
colour. karu + pu (suffix) > karumpu. The word kannal is again formed from the same
root: karu + nal > (karunal) > kannal (= sugarcane). At this stage, you can compare the
word’s derivation with karunadam> kannadam; the word karu > kaN > kaNNan means
black person (Krishnan). These formations would show that the root word is karu,
meaning black colour. Whilst we still have “kannal” in use today, “karunal” - the
intermediate form seems to have died out. But for cheruppu, you similarly have the
derived form as well, in “cheppal”. Cheruppu > cheruppu +al (a second suffix) >
cheppal. (chappal). Please note the pattern : the dropping of the intermediate “r” as for
kannal.
In a natural language like Tamil, it is usual for certain (intermediate) word forms to
become defunct after issuing out changed forms as shown above. Dictionaries and
literature often fail to keep pace with such developments. I do not think that any
lexicographer has successfully captured Tamil words/ usage such as aLLuuRu (drain),
anchadi (pavement), sivappaalam (red bridge), kayalaa (fever), muudaanku (lid), poRukki
kadai (second hand dealer’s shop ) and others so far. As times change, certain words go
out of use and fashion and others or other forms take their place.
Just like ordinary individuals take time to understand and respond, researchers too have to
go through stages. Anyway, their first reaction against a word would invariably be that the
word might be a foreign word. Even maangaai can be misuderstood as a Malay word
(mangga) because you will find mangga in the Indon and Malay dictionaries. But only
Tamil can give the root word, maa from which maa+kaai, maa+maram, maa+ilai,
maa+thoppu, maa + choolai, maa+kuyil etc flow. If you look at Javanese dictionary,
mangga is not divisible in such manner.
Prior to 1950, it was thought by some exponents in Tamil like K P Santhosh (Makiznan)
that chiini came from word chiinaa (China) because, (presumably), it came from China.
Sugarcane was also known and used by the Chinese. Sugarcane has a prominent place in
some festivals of China.
Sugarcane is traditionally used in Ponggal festival too.
A “siddhar” it seems, can consider himself as successful and as having attained “siddhu” if
a genus of sugarcane known as “peei karumpu” and usually bitter, tasted sweet to him.
This practice too, appears to be an old practice among them.
Other researchers studying the word “kannadam” (language) thought the word “kannal”
was old enough to be considered the root word of kannadam.
In Bharathithaasan’s stanza: “Kandai nikar kannadamennum mozikaL”, kandai means
kalkandu and the poet seems to subscribe to the view kannadam came from “kannal”.
However in the late fifties, researchers were certain that chiini comes from the word chin
(chinna) - small, referring to its granulated form.
Chiini is merely kalkandu (rock sugar) broken into small (coarse) pieces by pounding
(before the advent of machines).
“(kal)kandu” or “kandai” (big pieces) contrasts with chiini (small bits or granules). This
shows the way ordinary people think before they make words. Please note the usage: nuul
kandu ; kandu kandaaka thadiththu vittathu etc.
Chiini is an ordinary man’s word and do not despair if you do not find it in any literature.
Tamil annai stands on two legs: ulaka vazakku ( people’s usage) and seiyuL vazakku
(literary usage).
Our views based on comparative word studies differ from those who disbelieve the ability
of ordinary Tamilans to make thier own words. Of course, these people also use many
foreign words for convenience. But chiini is not one of such words.
Europeans learnt many new words after coming to the East. Englishmen acquired words
such as bangles, bungalow. Similarly the Portuguese learnt new words from us.
IE languages like to borrow either from one another or from the people whom they come
in contact with or place names, like the word “turkey”. The Tamils do not have this last
mentioned habit of giving an item a name derived from a place-name. Furthermore, so
many things came from China, chiinaakkaaram, chinak kalkandu, chinaththukkiLi etc.,
The word china was added in these words to show their place of origin; this is not
padikaaram but chinaakkaaram; this is not panangkalkandu but chinaak kalkandu; that is
not our local kiLi but a kiLi from China!! That is not local vedi but china vedi (pattasu)!!
The word china then functioned as an adjective qualifying the name of the item. Thus
chiini is not the only thing that came from China.
Thus it is more probable that chiini came from the word chil > chin> chinna (small )
meaning grains or granules of sugar. That is the latest and considered view. It contrasts well with rock sugar which is kalkandu and differentiates it.
If a Tamil root word can explain the meaning of the word correctly, there is no reason to
adopt other uncertain courses.
Dear A.P. Masilamani,
Thank you for your information regarding karumbu.
Your indepth knowledge about ground realities is remarkable.
china karam,china thukkuli,china kalkandu,(add) china kaliman(Mud) and chinei all contain polished/fair colour.
All the above words do not specify china or brought from china.
They were all made here.
The root of that words is cheeru/seeru which means arranged/refained/having fair look.
Kalkandu is by product while cheeni is made from 'sarukkaraippagu' with/without machine.
It will have dull colour. A china kalkandu is fair in colour.
The people named cheeni first and kalkandu next. sarukkarai is also a by product of cheeni. People called sometimes seeni sarkarai. It doen't mean small sakkarai. Because sarkarai has small granules than seeni.
Clean and white always are referred to beauty.
Srini the equivalent word for thiru evloved from the same root 'seeru'.
Kindly think it over and come to a conclusion.
f.s.gandhi
some root words:
A language can be named to specify the nature of the people who spoke that language.
Thirayar mozhi=thiramil=tamil
karunadar- kannadar=kannada, Sankam literature specified vaduga karunadar.
thelivalungar=thelivu+alungar=thelungar=thelugar=t elugu
thelivu-clear, alungar-mixed, Compare kalangu,alanga nallur, alungamal, kulungamal
Thelugus easliy adopted sanskritised tamil culture and alienated from tamils.
malayalam= malai+alam, the place near malai, Compare uppalam-the place near uppu-salt production. 'Al'- means near. Compare 'Akkul'-al+ul.
tulu= a branch of old telugu= thuluthal=kilaithal=a branch of big figure. thuli also has same meaning.
f.s.gandhi
Some more roots:
A word for luck-althittam-al+thittam. One of the meaning of al is 'no'
Without plan someting got is the meaning. Compare the words alli,alagu,alakku,ali - all have al root means allai/illai.
Note the equivalent word 'Tharcheyal'
Kamam- kam+am, kam is from am. kam & am means water/flowing matter. Two times it is used to specify its uncontrollability.
Compare the word amadu-am+madu. Am here means water.madu means nilam(land). A land near water. Maduvankarai- a village in Chennai near bay of bengal.
kamankarai-kam+am+karai= kam & am here also means water.
Hence kamam is one of the earliest tamil word when men used 'suttu oligal'.
amba samuthiram-a town name- am+ pai + samuththiram.
am and pai specifies water flowing.
The uncontrollable feelings flown out are specified by this word kamam.
In natham tham can be compared with thampaanku-themmanku-a folk song.
For wheel, after urulai, chakkaram was formulated through 'maram chakkai'-dead piece of tree- for transport.
In that tamils are foremost inventor in the world.
Kuyavu chakkaram was tamils first invention. 'chakku mara ennai'
can also be taken for comparison.
Anjali is tamil word.Agam+seli. internal feelings drived out.
f.s.gandhi
Mr/Ms Gandhi,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Contrary thinking and alternative analysis is always good and welcome.
According to you : " The root of that words is cheeru/seeru which means arranged/refained/having fair look. "
So, cheer > cheeru > cheenu > chiini.
Is that the way the word developed, as per your study of the word?
Please share some examples where "r" has changed to "n" in other Tamil or Dravidian word derivations. Like "p" can change to "v" as in paku > vaku.
Regards.
Dear A.P. Masilamani,
I find some similarity between the Tamil and English words "Vetri" and "Victory". Is there a possibility of one being derived from the other. Your thoughts please..
Thanks
Dear Mr. Maasilamani,
I'am pasting this from my old post as I didn't get any replies for this query:-
Recently I came across the German word for Round and it is 'Runde' This is very close to our Tamil word 'URunde'. So is the word for Head - 'Rundam' as it is round(I'am not sure if it is a Sanskrit word taken up by Tamil).
can anyone give me an insight into these words, the language from which this word originated and your reasons please...
Dear Tamilenuyir.
Vanakkam.
At present, there are linguists who point out that Max Muller and William Jones came across Skrt but had no idea of this southern language called Tamil. Thus they failed to even refer to Tamil/Dravidian as (a) possible source language(s) for proto-Indo-European language. Hence most Western linguists follow their predecessors and always cite Skrt as containing the roots of IE.
There is little real evidence that Skrt existed before 400 ACE. All inscriptions so far discovered used Tamil or Prakrit. The earliest stone inscription found dates back to 400 BCE and it is in Tamil.
Pali is even older than Sanskrit.
Some researchers conclude that there is no evidence for the claim of William Jones and Muller that Rig Veda was written in the pre-Christian era. Not all writers of the Rig Veda hymns were Aryans.Many could have been Dravidian ordinaries.
There are researchers who have come to the conclusion that Greek, Hebrew, Latin and Skrt were invented languages and it would be unrealistic to say that Latin or Skrt has the root for any word. These languages were artificially developed owing to the social and political necessities of the time. They grew or were enriched with roots taken from the surrounding regions ......
I am just summarizing for you. I am unable to gain access to the materials I have gathered owing to technical problems with my computer machines.
With this background in mind, I would say that the similarities you have pointed out would mean that the other languages borrowed from Tamil. According to some Western linguists, the proto -IE language(s) borrowed from Dravidian or Proto Dravidian at a very very early stage of their linguistic development. Dravidian was spoken in West Asia (around Iraq) very long ago. Pl see the old posts in this thread and under another thread : Dead Skrt is always dead. (The use of the word "dead" has been objected to.)
Many world languages have Tamil/Dravidian elements in them.
compare: for ease of ref, I use the Eng words.
vel > vetri with IE valour, victory
uruL > urundai with IE round
You have pointed out the German /Latin forms.
Some have expressed the opinion that presently it is politically not rewarding and economically unproductive for any govt to fund a research to establish a connection between IE and Tamil/Dravidian. Hence this matter has not been taken up for research seriously.
Best regards
Dear Mr.A.P. Masilamani,
When we find out the root for any word we have to look into the vowel starting of the word. Because tamil was formed by 'suttu oligal'-a,e,u. Then the same 'suttu oligal' turned into words. 'Am & Al are the examples.
There are lot of vowel starting words in tamil than any other language of the world.
That's why tamil is natural than any artificial languages.
There are consonant starting words in tamil but were formed first by vowels and then turned consonant. This point is very much essential in finding out root words. Ex. Am- Um-Sam roots.
Ex. lathu(telugu)=consonant starting, elathu(vowel starting)=el+athu.
There are lot of words in tamil old literature which were not used in the available sangam literature. But we can find some of them in the people colloquial language/dialects.
amadu/maduvankarai is one of that word that I specified earlier.
Even in Chennai(Madras) colloquial tamil which is considered a worst dialect by tamil pandits has 'kalaaiththal' ' (making fun of)' a old word is used. Hence tamil pandits should get into the dialects.
There we can get lot of roots.
Neelu is old word in tamil literature. It has turned neer in tamil. Kannada also neeru. In telugu the same neelu is there.
There is no proto dravidian/dravidian. We can use tamil as a source of root words for any language.
'Ra' difference/ 'la' difference occured during later grown stage of tamil language. No phonetics rules have been followed anywhere in tamil grammar. That is why lot of languages were formed from tamil phonetically.
There is enough proof that tamil is the origin of all languages in the world. The newly formed languages must have mingled together/more than one artificial languages mingled forming the world languages of today's world order is apparent.
Hence, If we form this hypothesis and do research we can find lot of evidences. Already enough evidences are there but to counter other wrong conclusions we have to invent more in that.
//cheer > cheeru > cheenu > chiini. //
I brought to your notice,the word, Srini-srinivasan-seenivasan.
Srini means thiru and it came from seerani=seer+ani both means thiru. Sanskirt sri is formed from this.
we can give many ex.s for 'ragaram' left out/absence.
Chinnalappattu-a name for a silk sarree. 'Seeranalappakattu' is the correct form. Cheer+an+aal+pakattu. Pattu is from pakattu.
karattu valkai-forest life- kattu valkai
orumai & panmai- parunmai turned panmai.
kan-eye- karun turned kan. In kannan - karunnan is correct form.
puran-out- puran turned pun-an injury
Neer vilaaval- water dissipation/mixing to wipe out heat. In this viraval-paravuthal- turned vilaaval.
thattu-plate- tharattu-thirattu- turned thattu.
Likewise srini turned seeni with the absence of 'ragaram' is the correct evoluation.
//At present, there are linguists who point out that Max Muller and William Jones came across Skrt but had no idea of this southern language called Tamil. Thus they failed to even refer to Tamil/Dravidian as (a) possible source language(s) for proto-Indo-European language. Hence most Western linguists follow their predecessors and always cite Skrt as containing the roots of IE. //
I complement to this passage.
When Vinsent smith started to write the book 'The ancient Indian history' understood that Indian history must be started from south not from north during writing the foreword to that book. -Refer 'Oppiean mozhi nool by Devanayap pavanar.
Maxmuller who eulosized sanskrit understood in his later years that the elements of world languages should be searched in tamil not in sanskrit- Refer Rt.Rev.Robert Caldwell, A Comparative Grammar of the Dravidian/South indian family of languages(1976), Page 90-91.
f.s.gandhi
Dear Mr/Ms Gandhi.
Thank you for your explanation.
You have your basis for saying cheeru > chiini, though your views differ from those who held chil >chin>chiini.
In any event, chiini is Tamil word, however analysed.
I am satisfied that only Tamil and none of the other languages seem to offer any root for the word.
Pl carry on. Regards.