The Unheard Years : Raja in the mid 90s

[Sureshs65]

This thread will be dedicated to analyzing Raja songs of the mid 90s. I propose that we start from the year 1994 and analyze his songs upto 2000. If there is enough interested, we can then analyze the first decade of this century as well

[Sureshs65]

First, why start from 1994? The reason is thus: Even the staunchest Raja fan will agree that 1992 was a key year in Tamil Film Music history. As key as 1976 was. Rahman's entry through Roja was path breaking and changed the soundscape of Tamil Film Music literally and figuratively. The songs were a big hit. Yet, it was the first film of Rahman and during that year, Raja did lot of films and many of them were hits. Sample these: Avaram Poo, Chinna Kounder, Chinna Taayi, Devar Magan, Kizhakku Vasal, Mannan, Nadodi Thenral, Sembaruthi, SingaraVelan, Vanna Vanna Pookal, Thirumathi Palanisamy. Given this, the year cannot be said to be an 'unheard one'.

In 1993, more Rahman films started coming out and success followed success. More than in 1992 when Roja came out, it was now that the music of Rahman was sinking into people. The new sound was attracting everybody. The new beats were 'cool' and very western. It was unlike what they were hearing from Raja. It will be an understatement to say that people lapped it up. Added to the beats, the old style melody was also the quality of sound in Rahman's music. The recordings were crisp and for once people felt that the quality was on par with what they got from the west. The initial Rahman attracted both the young and old alike and his songs zoomed up the charts on all TV shows in major metros.

Inspite of that, the transition from Raja to Rahman was not complete in 1993. While Rahman had Gentleman, Puthiya Mugam, Kizhakku Cheemaiyile and Thiruda Thiruda, all massive hits, Raja had Athma, Aranmanai Kili, Ejamaan, Kili Pechu Ketka Vaa, Marupadiyum, Meera, Uzhaippaali, Kalaignan, Valli and Walter Vetrivel. So people were still hearing Raja and his fans had hope that he will see off the 'challenge'.

It was in 1994 I feel that the tilt towards Rahman became more pronounced. He had 'Duet', 'Kadhalan', 'May Madham' and 'Karuthamma' which were super hits. (While 'Pavithra', 'Vandisolai Chinnaraasu' and 'Puthiya Mannargal' didn't reach the success of the other films, I think songs of 'Pavithra' and 'VSC' got decent air time.) For Raja, 'Mahanadhi' and 'Veera' were the big success, whereas lot of other movies which he scored for did not set the box office on fire and against the music of the Rahman films they didn't figure in the top list of those days. So in a way 1994 was the year in which many Raja fans started feeling that Raja's music was jaded and that he was not able to give 'tough competition' to Rahman. In a way by the end of 1994, a sort of disappointment had set in amongst the Raja fans and you slowly started hearing, "Whatever it is, no one can beat the Raja of the 80s." Many defended the Rahman onslaught not by comparing Raja's recent output but by taking recourse to his 80s output. Once that happened, the battle for 90s was lost.

Let me put a few disclaimers here: Ofcourse what I say is based on my personal experience and what I felt seeing friends around me say and do. Your experience may be different. You would have given up earlier or maybe you fought for a longer time. So don't take this as the final word.

This disclaimer is even more important. I have used words like 'challenge', 'fight was won / lost' etc. In music I personally feel there are no winners or losers. We as listeners are always the winners. And music reevaluation does happen and the way we perceive things will change. So don't take these words to heart. My idea is not to hurt anyone.

[Sureshs65]

This now brings us to the important question. How did Raja react to Rahman's entry and the success of his (Rahman) style of music. Did he react at all or did he follow his own path? Here I am not talking about his personal reactions in interviews etc. I am talking about whether there was any impact on his music or did he continue in the same vein? Now this is a very very tricky question to answer because Raja's output is so varied that we cannot instantly derive any correlation. That is the reason why I started this thread. To go year by year and see if we can find a pattern of his 'response', 'change' or whatever you want to call it.

Though I have stated that getting to conclusion wrt Raja's music is risky, I will take the risk. I would say that Raja continued on two paths. One in which he was evolving, as if there was no competition and another path in which he sort of acknowledges the competition and the current state of affairs.

First let us see how Raja's music was evolving. In 90s, (this is my take of course. Feel free to add your theories / conclusion) Raja was becoming more and more attached to what Plum coined as 'narrative integrity'. He wanted the songs to stick very close to the stories that were being told and match the situation of the movie. It did not matter to him as to what the current 'trend' was. He continued doing this in many of his movies. Also in the 90s, my personal feel is that he was infusing more peace into his songs. No what do I mean here. What I mean is he wasn't too keen on surprising you at every turn, as he used to do in his 80s songs (think 'andhi mazhai', 'nee dhaane en pon vasantham' etc) He was more keen on keeping the intended emotion throughout the song and all the interludes now went into enhancing the emotion. He was no longer thinking of giving you that sucker punch. It can be argued that during this time, this concept went against him as people were being given that 'sucker punch' by Rahman's beats and recording techniques. As I said earlier, if we need to take a theme to describe a part of Raja's works in the mid 90s, it would be PEACE. It was as if the master himself had achieved some sort of inner peace. Very surprising how the external world was changing around him but even in some of the 'kuthu' type songs you can sense this peace. The need to be subdued and not run riot.

The second Raja was what our friend equanimus in twitter had called 'Raja Lite'. This started from 'Kadhalukku Mariyadhi'. This shows more a response to the happenings around him. In these songs he tends to use the synthesizer and his songs get a bit simpler. Ofcourse he being Raja, he cannot eschew complexity and even his seemingly simple songs were more complex than the songs of those times. He started using the singers who were new, who were from Rahman's 'camp', who were introduced by Rahman in these songs. The songs did have a 'light' feel to them and were driven more by synth. (Ofcourse, lot has been said, quite unflatteringly infact, about his synth usage. I will not get into that debate here.)

The third type of songs were vinatge Raja songs. Songs which we can club easily with his 80s output. In other words an unchanged Raja.

In short, the response to the changing musical scene was as follows: in some case we see Raja of the old, in many cases we see the progress of Raja of the 90s evolving along the lines he wants to and thirdly we see the 'Raja Lite' part where there is some direct response to the happenings of those days.

[Sureshs65]

My proposal is this: As app_eng did for the Raja-SPB combo, I will take up some songs on a year-by-year basis and analyse them. People can give their own analysis on these songs and also their opinion. If everyone starts posting we have a problem to analyse in a streamlined fashion. My request therefore is for you to put a request on some song which you want analysed (or you can PM me.) That way, like how app_eng did, we can also capture all the songs of the 90s that were discussed.

Before I begin let me put up a few disclaimers and words of caution

1. As everyone would know, analyzing every song in every year will be almost an impossible task. We will go with a limited set. The main reason for choosing a song would be that it is nice and is not heard. (The title of the thread is 'Unheard' right?) Again I will say the caveat is that we can pick up a known song if it sort of reinforces something we want to say about Raja's technique or philosophy during those time.

2. Sometimes we will be comparing the song Raja had tuned to the songs of other MDs that were released during those times. We will have to ensure that these do not get into Raja-Rahman wars. Our aim is not to prove anything. The aim is simply to understand what Raja did during 1994 to 2000. All I ask from anyone who is seriously following this thread is this: Please listen to the songs posted here a few times. That's all. I do not expect anyone to get 'converted' to 90s Raja. The intention is not conversion but trying to understand the mind of a genius during an era which could have been tough for him.

3. I have no nostalgia attached with any of these songs. Zilch. Many of these I discovered very late and some I will discover during this series. So do not expect this series to be anywhere close to app_eng series. I don't think I can touch you the same way app did in his excellent series. Here we will have more analysis and discussions on the songs. If you have some nostalgia attached to a particular song which comes up, please feel free to write your experience.

4. I am taking the movie release dates from thiraipaadal. They have been doing a great service. At the same time some of the statistics / credits there are known to be wrong. Please correct anything that is wrongly quoted by me.

For a start, here is the listing of the films which came in 1994, courtesy thiraipaadal : http://www.thiraipaadal.com/year.php?schYear=1994&lang=en

[Sureshs65]

Let's start now. The first song that I want to analyze is this:

Song: Punnai Vanathu Kuyile
Film: Muthu Kaalai
Singers: SPB and Janaki

Since I wasn't in Tamil Nadu during those times I am not sure if this was a 'hit' song or not. Atleast it didn't reach me in Hyderabad. Going by responses I got to this song on twitter, it was not a so popular song. (Did app cover this?) Anyway as I said, the 'hit' is not as important as what we can learn from the song.

The song is based on Sivaranjani ragam, which Raja has explored in myriad ways. This song is what I call the 'peace' song. And also observe how everything supports the overall mood of the piece. There is nothing in the whole song which says, 'Hey look at me. New Clothes'. Starting from the shenai, the flight of violins backing the shenai, the north indian string instrument which plays Sivaranjani to the singing of SPB and Janaki there is a softness of touch. Also check how softly the pallavi ends. The first interlude also carries this softness of touch with the flute and violins. The one thing about this interlude is that I hear shades of Madhuvanthi here. Do others hear it? Lot of twists in the interlude but keeping in with his philosophy Raja doesn't let them go overboard. Everything is very subdued. The charanams continue in the same vein and wonderfully gets back to pallavi with 'palarum thenarum'. In the second interlude, the shenai takes up from where it left off in the prelude and this gives an excellent consistency to the song. Overall a song which we can bracket as the typical 90s Raja song.

Listen to the song here: http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR2148'&lang=en

[Sureshs65]

The next song details:

Song: Idi Idikkudhu
Film: Shaktivel
Singers: Mano and Chitra

I would bracket this song as a typical Raja's 80s song. Raja, has we all know, is the master to the 'matter song', the category to which this song belongs to. From the starting 'mungal' you get the Raja stamp. The rhythm, as in many such Raja songs, is very uneven. It is not free flowing. The drums seem to be going in one direction while the finger snapping goes to a different beat. The chorus in the interlude is such that you can easily imagine what happens on the screen. And what an interlude it is !! The charanam's start is sort of surprise and the charanam as in such songs twits and turns. A tabla joins in very effectively after the first two lines are sung. The second interlude is an excellent one with the rhythm and melody sort of countering each other. Overall, a very innovative song reminding you of the 80s Raja. The song is based on Madhyamavathi and when Raja uses this ragam he rarely goes wrong.

Thanks to equanimus who pointed out this song to me sometime back on twitter. I was unaware of its existence till then. Listen to the song here:

http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR3192'&lang=en

Note: I don't think I will be able to do a post a day like app-eng did but will try atleast two times a week. Each time I will take up two or three songs for analysis

[skr]

:thumbsup: Sureshji for finally starting this long awaited thread the "90s of Raaja".. You have aptly titled it as the unheard years..
Wonderful summary you have made in your posts , im looking forward to the discussions and also unearthing some rare gems through you guys..
Especially im looking forward to year 1997 when Raaja created some inhuman tunes in movies like Guru (Malayalam) and Shiva Shainya (Kannada)

Wishing you all the best in this series..Let us have some very interesting fruitful discussions and also scold ourselves on missing many lovely gems :) [Im sure that will happen as the thread unfolds] ..Also hoping that V_S ji also makes a comeback with this thread.
Let us all discover the lost Raaja of the 90s.

[TBCD]

following

[Plum]

Suresh - :clap: . After app's series ended, there was a bit of dullness around here. Obviously, you hav made it clear you will not have as much masala as app to create the same atmosphere but I think it is a good idea to do this 'art film' after the one year of commercial elements thrown in by app :)

Great start - punnaivanaththu was what I would call - and only a 90s Raja fan could have invented this term, I am sure you'll agree - niche hit :)

It was a hit among hardcore fans who were tracking him obsessively, despite the increasing difficulty in accessibility through popular media. Mind you, there were the shaktivels which werent a hit among even this constituency. I have radio memories associated with Shaktivel(starring, I remember vividly, Chelvaa, younger brother of Rajasekhar who recently was seen in Yuddham Sei). "malligai mottu manasa thottu" was a sort of - well I am a 90s Raja fan and you'll find me coining more jargon now - miniscule hit. I havent heard the song you are heralding now. And I have only ever heard the first two lines of "malligai mottu" closely, in the viLambaradhArar program in radio, which were dying out and giving way to the satellite channel revolution at that time.

That's some 90s socio-graphy.

Coming to Punnaivanaththu kuyilE, the Shehnai heralding the second interlude is what immediately comes to mind. Propah tamizh rural movie - the man brings in Shehnai and did you ever feel out of place? No. That's the magic.

I remember thinking this is so familiar, rehashed Raja but still succumbing to the magic. But no denying these songs eventually led to accusations of rehash of 80s templates etc.

"Andha kanji kalayaththa", a rehash of "Olathumbathinoru" from Pappayude Swantham from, I think, the previous year in malayalam, was also heard to some extent in the satellite channels.

[KV]

Sureshji... deadly stuff! Fantastic posts! :clap:.
Interesting choice of songs. 'Punnai vanathu kuyile', I'll even bracket it with Raaja's 80s classics. Lovely melody! IR+SPB+SJ+Sivaranjani... difficult for this one to go wrong, aint it!?
OTOH, 'idi idikkudhu' - you can set your counter ticking! I'm listening to this one for the first time now. Instantly catchy; interesting charanams. Nice find, indeed!

[skr]

Coming to Punnai Vannathu Kuyile , its a beautiful song in Shivaranjini ragam ..The flavour of the trademark Shivaranjini is there throughout the song though it mildly deviates in the interludes and also in a line at the Charanam but it clearly flies the stamp of Shivaranjini overall..

Its during the end part of the Charanam where he introduces the alien notes Ma1 and Ni3 giving a nice dimension to the composition , infact it elevates the song and is my favourite part of the song.
The portion at 02:10 is where there undergoes a change when SPB sings Enenna Aanalenna , the notes go |Ga2 ~ Pa Sa |Ni3 Pa Pa Ni3 |Da2 Ma1 Ma1 Da2| Pa ~ Pa ~| which could be said to be Gowrimanohari and immediately SJ brings it to pure Shivaranjani when she sings Oooh Paalarum Thenarum , the transition is really beautiful ..the previous line SPB hints at a change and Janaki does the job beautifully..

Wonderful song , the orchestration reminds me a lot about the songs of Ejamaan which had come around the same time..
And as Plum already said , a special mention must be made for the wonderful Shehnai usage.

[Plum]

I am inclined to go with Sivaranjani(Not Srikanth's wife, although I wouldn't have minded 20 years ago ), too. Not that I am an expert but it is one of the raagas - thanks to SARS virus and L-P (thEnjupOna) records - that even a dumbo w.r.t Carnatic music can identify easily and I have always thought it was Sivaranjani.

swaram pottu raagam kaNdupidikkaravanga yAraavadhu dhAn confirm paNNanum

[Sureshs65]

Thanks Plum. Will be looking forward to people like you to give some background on these songs. And let us coin phrases along the way :D As you said, it is a lovely song but during those times it would have had a 'template' feel. I can fully understand that feeling. As skr mentioned, goes with the 'Ejaman' mould.

Yes, that is indeed Sivaranjani overall but in the interlude ending and the beginning of the charanam, give me a hint of Madhuvanthi. Nice analysis by skr.

Thanks skr and KV and welcome to TBCD. KV, I was also stunned when I heard this 'Shakthivel' song.

[skr]

Idi Idikkidhu - rhythm unmayave idikkudhu but as KV mentioned its instantly catchy and you cant have a grim face listening to this..
I think it uses the technique of "Usi" which is stress on the even beats , whatever we coin it , song is extremely enterprising.
Really nice and as you mentioned Raaja always gets Madhyamavathi right , time for Usha ji to make an entry in as its her favourite ragam :)

Chinna Kuyil does a marvellous job , she nails this one perfectly :thumbsup: , Mano also does a neat job.
Although the ragam is almost a perfect Madhyamavathi , there is a slight shift to Brindavana Saranga (i feel) during the last line of Charanam when Chitra sings Aadai Neekhi Paartha at around 02:10..Here too though the other Ni3 is just for a feeble measure , the change is pretty apparent..Ofcourse Madhyamavathi and BS are 2 ragams which confuse quite a number of folks including me.. Im also confusing a lot right now :)

[udebaqifoz]

Very nicely done. Your analysis is very agreeable too. Your insight into the PEACE theme seems to be very interesting. Shall listen to the songs from that angle. A couple of songs which do reflect the theme and came after Rahman's time, in 1993 (?) for Maamiyar Veedu are Ennai Thodarnadhadhu and Nalla Samsaram. The film sunk without a trace and yet the songs are gems. Cannot quite categorize them into the 80s Raaja or vintage Raaja. Wonderful series you have started. Looking forward to it. :)

[Sureshs65]

Welcome Venkateswaran. Nice to see you here.

Yes, there have been movies starting late 80s, (88-89 timeframe) when the shifted started to more peaceful melodies. 'ennai thotttu allikonda' is one example. That continued till almost end of 90s. The two songs you allude to are gems, especially 'ennai thodardhadhu'. We will probably look at such songs for us to understand where the shift in late 80s happened.

[AravindMano]

Ji, good luck with this thread :thumbsup:

[P_R]

Good thread. Yet to hear the songs. But I am likely to disagree.
For the last few months it has been my pastime to pick a year in thiraipaadal and listen to songs in it.
And till the late 90s I see Raja has been very much present in my soundscape.
And I am no gemdigger. As mainstream and superficial a ear as possible.
Nesst meet paNREn.

[tvsankar]

Suresh,
Hearty Thanks to U..... IR Greatness a eduthu sollungo.......................... Really Great....... Hearty Wishes to U............

inimel dhan post elllam padikanam. padikaren Suresh......

[app_engine]

Excellent thread & great posts, Sureshji!

Too many app references :oops:
koochchamA irukku....avvaLavu thakuthi adiyEnukku illeenga :-)

Well, like Plum said, it was a "commercial masAlA" and had its time and moments :-)

[baroque]

Good job Suresh!

1994, I lived at B'lore!

Shakthivel's folk ilayaraja's Arunmozhi-Swarna MALLIGA MOTTU......is cable TV's favorite composition!

[app_engine]

BTW, muththukkALai was not covered in the SPB-IR thread due to lack of parichchayam.

Excellent song!

However, the 'calmness' 'shanthi' concept was there in 80's itself :wink: (example - veN mEgam & pon mAnE sangeetham of nAn sigappu manithan, both are very similar to the muththukkALai song and have mild 'northie' / 'ejamAn' feel)

The other Mano-KSC song is unselected for me :oops: Both are unfit for the genre and fail to create the required feel...(One feels like a hymn on mother nature's lightning and thunder :lol2: and not the 'maRRa' vishayam)

[groucho070]

Suresh, great job, will be following. Thanks.

[jaiganes]

This now brings us to the important question. How did Raja react to Rahman's entry and the success of his (Rahman) style of music. Did he react at all or did he follow his own path? Here I am not talking about his personal reactions in interviews etc. I am talking about whether there was any impact on his music or did he continue in the same vein? Now this is a very very tricky question to answer because Raja's output is so varied that we cannot instantly derive any correlation. That is the reason why I started this thread. To go year by year and see if we can find a pattern of his 'response', 'change' or whatever you want to call it.

Though I have stated that getting to conclusion wrt Raja's music is risky, I will take the risk. I would say that Raja continued on two paths. One in which he was evolving, as if there was no competition and another path in which he sort of acknowledges the competition and the current state of affairs.

First let us see how Raja's music was evolving. In 90s, (this is my take of course. Feel free to add your theories / conclusion) Raja was becoming more and more attached to what Plum coined as 'narrative integrity'. He wanted the songs to stick very close to the stories that were being told and match the situation of the movie. It did not matter to him as to what the current 'trend' was. He continued doing this in many of his movies. Also in the 90s, my personal feel is that he was infusing more peace into his songs. No what do I mean here. What I mean is he wasn't too keen on surprising you at every turn, as he used to do in his 80s songs (think 'andhi mazhai', 'nee dhaane en pon vasantham' etc) He was more keen on keeping the intended emotion throughout the song and all the interludes now went into enhancing the emotion. He was no longer thinking of giving you that sucker punch. It can be argued that during this time, this concept went against him as people were being given that 'sucker punch' by Rahman's beats and recording techniques. As I said earlier, if we need to take a theme to describe a part of Raja's works in the mid 90s, it would be PEACE. It was as if the master himself had achieved some sort of inner peace. Very surprising how the external world was changing around him but even in some of the 'kuthu' type songs you can sense this peace. The need to be subdued and not run riot.

The second Raja was what our friend equanimus in twitter had called 'Raja Lite'. This started from 'Kadhalukku Mariyadhi'. This shows more a response to the happenings around him. In these songs he tends to use the synthesizer and his songs get a bit simpler. Ofcourse he being Raja, he cannot eschew complexity and even his seemingly simple songs were more complex than the songs of those times. He started using the singers who were new, who were from Rahman's 'camp', who were introduced by Rahman in these songs. The songs did have a 'light' feel to them and were driven more by synth. (Ofcourse, lot has been said, quite unflatteringly infact, about his synth usage. I will not get into that debate here.)

The third type of songs were vinatge Raja songs. Songs which we can club easily with his 80s output. In other words an unchanged Raja.

In short, the response to the changing musical scene was as follows: in some case we see Raja of the old, in many cases we see the progress of Raja of the 90s evolving along the lines he wants to and thirdly we see the 'Raja Lite' part where there is some direct response to the happenings of those days.
certain things to add on and some to contradict.
biggest event in 90s is not arr entry, but raja's symphony.
because of some things that we are not privy to, raja came
home a changed man. He lost that joy d vivre towards film music
and started giving memorable songs only to quality movies.
To the rest he started handing out assortments which had a gem
for a nice situation and some melodies with fat free content.
i thought that this too should be honestly recorded inthis thread.

[Sureshs65]

Jai,

I agree with you on the Symphony creation being an important turning point. Whether Raja thought he has achieved everything possible, or thought that "what is all this film music" when such forms like symphony exist or whether Raja lost 'interest' after creating such a mammoth score as symphony or was he hurt when the symphony was 'criticized' by some critics, whether the symphony had any direct bearing on his tuning for film music. All these are relevant and interesting questions. We can only answer these taking into account Raja's films before the symphony and after he did the symphony. That is probably something we must do.

In the series my aim is to address the second part of your post, which is, whether Raja did not 'raise to the challenge' and whether he really gave quality songs only to quality movies / big directors or did he give them to everyone? Also importantly as many claim, did his composing power 'decrease' in those years. We will also see if, as you say, if there was a disinterest which reflected in his work. The task is not easy as we have to do this in a objective way and also look at a very large sample to come to any conclusion. Ofcourse this is not some research project where the conclusion is important. Rather all of us are more interested in the journey :D

To be honest, I held the same view as you, in fact in a more harsh sense. That Raja was 'not upto mark' after Rahman's arrival (or after the Symphony). Constant hearing of his 90s work has changed that opinion significantly. That is one reason why I started this. Trying to make sense of why I dismissed so much of music back then which I now see was of high quality.

[Sureshs65]

P_R,

As we had discussed this on twitter, I think the experience of people not based on Chennai seems to slightly different from those based in Chennai. I was in Chennai between 95-98 and yes, Raja was around but the number of songs of his that were heard were a small fraction of what he created. There were many movies which were dismissed outright and not heard at all. My idea is to focus on these unheard movies and songs. Since you do have a good idea of lot of 90s music, do chip in with your experience whenever a movie / song you know about is being discussed.

app,

Whether you like it or not, your series has become a Gold Standard here :) And it deserves it :)

I agree with you that 'idi idikkudhu' could have been better off with Balu / SJ but I am more concerned about the musical ideas and I saw that song to be full of some very innovative ideas, especially with respect to rhythm.

[Sureshs65]

Usha, Arvind, Groucho

Thanks for the support

Vinita,

Thanks for the support. I had an idea that the Shaktivel song you referred to would have been a hit. That's why I did not select it.

[Sureshs65]

app,

Yes, the concept of 'peace' or 'calmness' was around right from the beginning. 'azhagu azhagu', 'ppove sempoove' are other songs you can add. What I am trying to get at here is that those were designated 'calmness' songs, whereas there was a certain turmoil in many of the songs. Turmoil in the sense of orchestration and tuning. The sudden twists, the sudden turns, the sudden creeping up of instruments. Everything pointed to a restless soul, musically. Not a minute of peace for the listener. Yesterday on twitter we were discussing about 'vaanam enge' from 'Nenjil Aadum Poo Onru'. You can find all these attributes here. A completely restless song which makes people like Kamal Aakarsh go, "What was this man smoking when he created this?" A restlessness which was channeled to create some amazing beauties and surprise us no end and which still continues to surprise us.

Not that this facet of Raja went away completely but just that in a certain set of songs he underplayed it completely. There were changes in the interludes, unexpectedly an instrument would creep in and so on. But everything was done in a more subdued way. The difference between watching a sport in the stadium and watching it on TV. Ofcourse this a very vague half formed theory of mine. I am trying to substantiate it with songs here. Let me see if I can convince myself, leave along convincing others :D

[Sureshs65]

Song No: 3
Song: Vidiyum Neram
Film: Sethupathi IPS
Singers: Sunanda and Chorus
Link : http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR3312'&lang=en

I dont have any idea of the singer Sunanda mentioned in thiraipaadal. In some places her pronunciation is reminiscent of Chitra.

This is a standard inspirational song. Raja would do more such songs and revolutionary songs going forward. In this song I would like to make another observation. If you observe the Raja of 80s, along with the restlessness, Raja also had a penchant for breaking a genre and making it his own. What I mean is that there would be a flight of violins in the WCM mode and suddenly a folk flute would enter, breaking the genre. The overall effect would be quite organic and this was the sort of signature we had come to expect. In the 90s, maybe after the symphony, my feeling is that Raja put his own signature on the piece while still being within the genre. He probably did not want to make the change obvious. Follow the first interlude in this song. The whole of the first interlude is in classic WCM style. He takes the main melody and builds the harmony around it in the interlude. There are no 'interruptions' or 'sudden eruptions'. Overall the mood is exactly as that of the song and the grammar of WCM is being maintained I think. Even then, you can hear the unmistakable mark of Raja on the interlude. This is how he would build the BGM in later days. (The recent ASK and SreeRamaRajyam are examples).

The song is a chorus delight as well. This song wouldn't have the same effect without the vocal harmony that runs throughout the song. It is very difficult to find such songs where the vocal harmony is done so well. The second interlude is more a 'Raja' interlude. Here while maintaining the WCM orchestration, he brings the flute in to give us the Indian music feel briefly. You can see the sort of effort that has gone into this song.

Overall for me a terrific song whose existence I did not know of until recently. The 'Sathu Nada Sathu' from this movie was quite famous.

[raajarasigan]

Sunanda was the singer who had sung the happy female version of 'seNbagamE seNbagamE' from EOP... :)

few more hits of her under IR..

mannaA mannavA from WV
Vanna Vanna solleduthu from SP..

[Sureshs65]

Thanks Rajarasigan

[Gregorysab]

A very interesting thread. As Jaiganes said, I dont know if the dividing line that triggers this discussion is arr's entry or the symphony. But whatever it might be, it is good to see what exactly raaja did in each year. One thing is for sure: He did not cut down on no. of movies he was taking. So, at some level, the enthusiasm levels were there. Whether he was cleverly able to pitch in his style/school-of-thought in the new trend that was coming up is something we might discover along the way. My opinion is that he did not significantly change his brand of music till 1997-98 period. He slowly came to terms with new tools, new processes and new sounds from that period. Anyway, this is all premature analysis even before i join this journey!

Looking forward to more songs that we can explore! A lot of songs will be the ones we might have heard in the last 5-8 years. But this exploration will be unique because we are trying to understand his work.

[Gregorysab]

Let's start now. The first song that I want to analyze is this:

Song: Punnai Vanathu Kuyile
Film: Muthu Kaalai
Singers: SPB and Janaki

The one thing about this interlude is that I hear shades of Madhuvanthi here. Do others hear it?

Listen to the song here: http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR2148'&lang=en

Yes, I do! there seems to be a mix here!

[Gregorysab]

The next song details:

Song: Idi Idikkudhu
Film: Shaktivel
Singers: Mano and Chitra

I would bracket this song as a typical Raja's 80s song. Raja, has we all know, is the master to the 'matter song', the category to which this song belongs to. From the starting 'mungal' you get the Raja stamp. The rhythm, as in many such Raja songs, is very uneven. It is not free flowing. The drums seem to be going in one direction while the finger snapping goes to a different beat. The chorus in the interlude is such that you can easily imagine what happens on the screen. And what an interlude it is !! The charanam's start is sort of surprise and the charanam as in such songs twits and turns. A tabla joins in very effectively after the first two lines are sung. The second interlude is an excellent one with the rhythm and melody sort of countering each other. Overall, a very innovative song reminding you of the 80s Raja. The song is based on Madhyamavathi and when Raja uses this ragam he rarely goes wrong.

http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR3192'&lang=en


Indeed a wonderful song. Loved the interludes and overall the chords he gives on keyboards. And yes, the polyrhythmic experiment here was unique = drums + finger snapping. I didnt like the 2nd interlude that much but. still, the song is enjoyable.

[Gregorysab]

Sunanda was the singer who had sung the happy female version of 'seNbagamE seNbagamE' from EOP... :)

few more hits of her under IR..

mannaA mannavA from WV
Vanna Vanna solleduthu from SP..

if i remember it right, the song "suramodamu" from Aditya 369 was by Janaki and this Sunanda only. Also, Kaadhal Mayakkam from Pudhimai Penn.

[Gregorysab]

Song No: 3
Song: Vidiyum Neram
Film: Sethupathi IPS
Singers: Sunanda and Chorus
Link : http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR3312'&lang=en

The second interlude is more a 'Raja' interlude. Here while maintaining the WCM orchestration, he brings the flute in to give us the Indian music feel briefly. You can see the sort of effort that has gone into this song.



Its a killer interlude. Goosebumps! after that nothing-outstanding 1st interlude, the 2nd interlude is something that you will never expect. indeed, he just did not build any "shock and awe" elements in 1st interlude but thats exactly what he does in 2nd interlude.

Never heard this song before. Indeed a terrific song!

[jaiganes]

Song No: 3
Song: Vidiyum Neram
Film: Sethupathi IPS
Singers: Sunanda and Chorus
Link : http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR3312'&lang=en

I dont have any idea of the singer Sunanda mentioned in thiraipaadal. In some places her pronunciation is reminiscent of Chitra.

This is a standard inspirational song. Raja would do more such songs and revolutionary songs going forward. In this song I would like to make another observation. If you observe the Raja of 80s, along with the restlessness, Raja also had a penchant for breaking a genre and making it his own. What I mean is that there would be a flight of violins in the WCM mode and suddenly a folk flute would enter, breaking the genre. The overall effect would be quite organic and this was the sort of signature we had come to expect. In the 90s, maybe after the symphony, my feeling is that Raja put his own signature on the piece while still being within the genre. He probably did not want to make the change obvious. Follow the first interlude in this song. The whole of the first interlude is in classic WCM style. He takes the main melody and builds the harmony around it in the interlude. There are no 'interruptions' or 'sudden eruptions'. Overall the mood is exactly as that of the song and the grammar of WCM is being maintained I think. Even then, you can hear the unmistakable mark of Raja on the interlude. This is how he would build the BGM in later days. (The recent ASK and SreeRamaRajyam are examples).

The song is a chorus delight as well. This song wouldn't have the same effect without the vocal harmony that runs throughout the song. It is very difficult to find such songs where the vocal harmony is done so well. The second interlude is more a 'Raja' interlude. Here while maintaining the WCM orchestration, he brings the flute in to give us the Indian music feel briefly. You can see the sort of effort that has gone into this song.

Overall for me a terrific song whose existence I did not know of until recently. The 'Sathu Nada Sathu' from this movie was quite famous.

chichueshan saar chichueshan.
brings the best out of raaja or any music director.
pvasu is one guy who gives good situations and gets
good set of tunes, but sodhappucies in the picturization.
here he creates a unique situation of school kids held
as ransom in their own school along with supposedly sexy
teacher(played by meena). that explains the chorus.
also nothing else happens in the song on screen except
a slight shift in the mood of the children. hence the interludes
being slightly monotonous. yet this is a certified gem of a song.
well done to highlight it. sooper vairamnaalum kadai vechaa dhaan vikkum.
arthaath: even if it is a valuable diamond, it will sell well only in a shop.

[app_engine]

Yet to check-out the sEthupathi song...still, a quick post on a couple of things:

Sunantha - wonderful singer (IMO), in TFM her first (well-known) song was 'kAdhal mayakkAm' from "AVMmin puthumaippeN" (enna oru akkiramam, stealing it from Bharathi :shock:...and the co-conspirator for this was another Bharathi(rAjA)). The JC-Sunandha 'kAdhal mayakkam' is such a beauty, melodious song! (Comedy on-screen ofcourse, with Pandiyan-Revathy and veLLai udai dEvadhaikaL).

On rAsA's "shift" in mid-90's : Other than the ARR & symphony factors, please also consider the "promoting kids" factor :oops: I think he was keen to make KR the competitor to the new puyal :roll:

[baroque]

good, keep going, suresh, will follow up!

[Sureshs65]

Its a killer interlude. Goosebumps! after that nothing-outstanding 1st interlude, the 2nd interlude is something that you will never expect. indeed, he just did not build any "shock and awe" elements in 1st interlude but thats exactly what he does in 2nd interlude.



Aakarsh,

That is what I have been pointing out to. That in interludes he started closely following the genre and got his own stamp in it, without doing the 'usual' Raja we have come to expect. The first interlude is the Raja of 90s. There is a lot happening in that interlude in musical terms but it does not 'hit' us as the second interlude because the second interlude is what Raja had prepared us for. So we do not find the first interlude exciting. At the same, from a harmony perspective, lot of effort has gone into that interlude as well. It is just that it sticks very close to the WCM genre. This dichotomy of his interludes is what we will keep seeing as more songs keep coming in.

[Sureshs65]

Jai,

Your post brings up the more pertinent question, "How can we deal with these songs without knowing the situation in the film for which these were used?" Now, in this respect I have to take help from folks here who would have seen these movies. I am a very bad movie watcher. (No, I don't watch bad movies :D ) Most of the 'classics' are also unwatched. So in this regard all help will be appreciated.

That Raja's song cannot be separated from the situation in the film is something we said right in the beginning. So it will be nice to have that in the back of our mind while we analyse it.

Thanks app for the info on Sunanda. I am not too sure how Raja wanted to bring in Karthik Raja into the scene and what impact it had on his music. Again would take help from all you guys in this aspect.

[jaiganes]

as far as letting space for KR or lack of interest - I can quote Flautist/singer Arunmozhi when he said "I was allowed to do some BGM for Rajavin paarvayile - so it is not just KR - Raaja got fedup with so many mokkai movies of 90s and post symphony fatigue meant that he reserved the best only for projects that really wanted a Raaja - we see that he has put in his all for movies like Avathaaram and Devadhai.

[Sureshs65]

Song No: 4
Song: Thangame Enga Kongu Naatukku
Movie: Madurai Veeran Engasamy
Singers: Chitra (?), Minmini (?) and Arunmozhi (thiraipaadal lists only Arunmozhi)
Link: http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR1834'&lang=en

We now move into Raja's folk territory. The prelude claps of kummi, the kulavi sound and then the female chorus, all perfectly setup the folk pallavi to follow. The prelude humming is in Anandha Bhairavi and the final piano before the pallavi starts is typical Raja. So is the bass that follows the pallavi. The whole pallavi is unmistakably folk and is in Ananda Bhairavi ragam. The interlude again is typical Raja. Is it Chitra who starts the charanam and is it Minimini joining for the last two lines? The second interlude again is a typical Raja interlude. Arunmozhi sings the second charanam. The charanam is also typical Raja, with the melodic quotient increasing throughout. I don't think the charanams are in Anandha Bhairavi. Arunmozhi's charanam is about mother. When folk and mother combine, with Raja magic happens. This is an outstanding song by any standard.

I have not heard of this movie at all until I started my digging.

[skr]

Thangame Enga Kongu
Just hear a few seconds and you know the Raaja touch is visible in its fullest..
This is truly his territory and he is having a ball especially in those interludes..
The Charanam is truly spellbinding.

Really lovely song , should have definitely been more popular but cud have faded away perhaps due to the dismal fate of the movie at the BO.
Im sure , this would have been really lapped up by the public had it appeared in a well known film such as say Chinna Gounder.

[skr]

The Sethupathi IPS track is a really nice sweet melody in 6/8 rhythm with wonderful vocal harmony layering..
I thought it was a pretty run of the mill track when i listened first time but after a couple of further listens , find it to be very smooth and catchy.
Wonder if its only me but somehow i could relate the orchestration of the song to be on similar lines to his mid 80s soundtracks such as Kodai Mazhai , Poove Poochoodavaa etc

[app_engine]

so it is not just KR

appadi simple-A solla mudiyA :-)

Even after the arrival of ARR, rAsA songs with Raj Kiran had considerable success and penetration ('oru sandhanakkAttukkuLLE' of ellAmE en rAsA dhAn was a 1995-er IIRC).

And Raj Kiran was in the "IR special" group (unlike the movies that he would have let Arunmozhi to do some work).

And mANikkam went to KR :wink: I think from pANdiyan days (uyyalAlA), there was some effort from IR ...'thandhai makaRkARRum udhavi'...

[rajeshkrv]

The next song details:

Song: Idi Idikkudhu
Film: Shaktivel
Singers: Mano and Chitra

I would bracket this song as a typical Raja's 80s song. Raja, has we all know, is the master to the 'matter song', the category to which this song belongs to. From the starting 'mungal' you get the Raja stamp. The rhythm, as in many such Raja songs, is very uneven. It is not free flowing. The drums seem to be going in one direction while the finger snapping goes to a different beat. The chorus in the interlude is such that you can easily imagine what happens on the screen. And what an interlude it is !! The charanam's start is sort of surprise and the charanam as in such songs twits and turns. A tabla joins in very effectively after the first two lines are sung. The second interlude is an excellent one with the rhythm and melody sort of countering each other. Overall, a very innovative song reminding you of the 80s Raja. The song is based on Madhyamavathi and when Raja uses this ragam he rarely goes wrong.

Thanks to equanimus who pointed out this song to me sometime back on twitter. I was unaware of its existence till then. Listen to the song here:

http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR3192'&lang=en

Note: I don't think I will be able to do a post a day like app-eng did but will try atleast two times a week. Each time I will take up two or three songs for analysis

Sakthivel did have the famous malliga mott by Arunmozhi and Swarnalatha which was very popular as well

[sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar]

EVen RV Udayakumar has got great songs spanning from 90 to 95

www.thiraipaadal.com/director.php?DIRID=R V Udayakumar&lang=en

[rajeshkrv]

Song No: 3
Song: Vidiyum Neram
Film: Sethupathi IPS
Singers: Sunanda and Chorus
Link : http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR3312'&lang=en

I dont have any idea of the singer Sunanda mentioned in thiraipaadal. In some places her pronunciation is reminiscent of Chitra.

This is a standard inspirational song. Raja would do more such songs and revolutionary songs going forward. In this song I would like to make another observation. If you observe the Raja of 80s, along with the restlessness, Raja also had a penchant for breaking a genre and making it his own. What I mean is that there would be a flight of violins in the WCM mode and suddenly a folk flute would enter, breaking the genre. The overall effect would be quite organic and this was the sort of signature we had come to expect. In the 90s, maybe after the symphony, my feeling is that Raja put his own signature on the piece while still being within the genre. He probably did not want to make the change obvious. Follow the first interlude in this song. The whole of the first interlude is in classic WCM style. He takes the main melody and builds the harmony around it in the interlude. There are no 'interruptions' or 'sudden eruptions'. Overall the mood is exactly as that of the song and the grammar of WCM is being maintained I think. Even then, you can hear the unmistakable mark of Raja on the interlude. This is how he would build the BGM in later days. (The recent ASK and SreeRamaRajyam are examples).

The song is a chorus delight as well. This song wouldn't have the same effect without the vocal harmony that runs throughout the song. It is very difficult to find such songs where the vocal harmony is done so well. The second interlude is more a 'Raja' interlude. Here while maintaining the WCM orchestration, he brings the flute in to give us the Indian music feel briefly. You can see the sort of effort that has gone into this song.

Overall for me a terrific song whose existence I did not know of until recently. The 'Sathu Nada Sathu' from this movie was quite famous.
Sunandha was an excellent singer and was used by Raja at length in late 80's and 90's . Poove sempoove female version was by her and many more songs
like Kadhal mayakkam, Oru kola kili sonnadhe, solli solli, amma amma enum aaruyire ,mannava mannava, vella manam ulla machan, poonkatre inge vandhu and many more.
There was a duet with raja in Arvindswamy suganya starrer - Enakkena oruvarum illamal ponalaum . nice one

Other than raja others used her as well.
She sang NAtchathira jannalil vanam etti with mano for sirpi and few songs for deva as well . AR rahman used her in Edhukku pondatti in kizhakku seemayile

She was a good singer and decided to move on to her forte carnatic..
here is an article from hindu about her.

http://www.hindu.com/mp/2006/11/30/stories/2006113001650100.htm

[udebaqifoz]

Sethupathi IPS song was a wunderbar. Thangame Enga Kongu Naatukku is vintage Raaja. Interludes are the eargasmic Raaja at his best. I particularly love the twists the tune takes over the tabla in the charanams, like a river over rocks. Super stuff. Arunmozhi's entry in the second interlude is beautiful. The rhythm is again fantastic. It goes tha ka tha ki ta (interval of 5) for a brief period and then tha ka thakitathakita in the same interval, a little faster this time to accommodate the additional beats. Pure genius packed song. And the WCM styled violins in the interlude with a folk tune. Oh gosh! Pure frigging genius.

I would also love for you to discuss "Kottunga Kottunga Kummi" from Raajavin Paarvayile. Very complex rhythms. Genius Raaja at his very best. A tune that is not quite the 80s Raaja too. It could be just that Raaja started to evolve. Like we see with the songs in Paattu Paadava. "Iniya Gaanam" is THAT 80s Raaja, experimenting with rap, qawwali, carnatic and rock in a matter of 2 mins from the interlude to charanam. "Vazhividu Vazhividu" and "Nil Nil Nil" aren't quite the 80s Raaja but still what amazing songs! I for one prefer Raaja's voice over SPB's in Vazhividu. This 90s Raaja is a colossus too, looking back now.

[irir123]

"Kottunga Kottunga Kummi" from Raajavin Paarvayile - Violin Vicky has dedicated a blogpost only for this song and its uniqueness ! try to get hold of it - amazing stuff!

[app_engine]

Sureshji,
Both the Sunanda song from Sethupathi & the thangamE number from madurai veeran are excellent picks.

Yes, the Sethupathi number has the 'calmness' methodology applied. I used to post in tfmpage on this thing as rAsA being 'soft on ears'...now I know it was 'soft overall', possibly indicating his own state of mind at that period of his career...

OTOH, the themmAngu is vintage 80's stuff, as observed by you and others. The girls are awesome and I thoroughly enjoyed the first half...until the boy came and killed the song :-(

That was one MAJOR problem with IR that started in the later half of 80's. We all know he was always enthusiastic about new voices right from the 70's and that's how we got the wonderful MV. There were others who had come and gone, like Krishnachandar / SN Surendar / Deepan C...they were ok kind of singers whom we could tolerate for one or two numbers here and there with the major chunk done by superior singers as SPB-KJY-MV-IR-JC. Also, they were coming and going.

Unfortunately for the late-80's & 90's, the major chunk went to such fellows. And, they didn't disappear after one or two numbers :cry2:

[jaiganes]

we ought to include raaja's other language songs as well..

[Sureshs65]

VG,

Wonderful writeup. Excellent analysis. Do keep writing.

As irir123 indicated Vicky has done a full post on that song. I will post it here soon. We will definitely talk about the songs of those films when we get to that year.

Jai,

I surely want to discuss the other language songs here. He mainly worked in Malayalam. Telugu and Kannada being secondary. His Malayalam works are very different from the Tamil works. Once we put a few more songs, let us take up some Malayalam songs from the same period and see how it differs and also try seeing what his philosophy in Malayalam was. Tough job but will be a pleasurable one :D

[Sureshs65]

app,

Fully agree with you. After probably a couple of more songs I want to put forward a comparison with the hits of those days and see for what reason some of the Raja songs did not become as famous as others. We will probably get to discuss the singers, the recording quality, synth usage, template tune and much more. As of now, all I can is that I fully agree with you. The number songs that Mano and Arunmozhi was disproportionate to their talent. Unfortunate but true. Whereas in the female side of the equation, he did zoom in on some lovely talent like Swarnalatha and Minmini.

[Sureshs65]

Song No: 5
Song: Punnai Vana Poonkuyile
Film: Sevvanthi
Singers: Swarnalatha & Arunmozhi
Link: http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR3316'&lang=en

First, let us ask app to sort of think it was not sung by Arunmozhi :) Please concentrate on the song and the tune. I put up this song for a few reasons. One, it is very easy to put up the 'this is a template' argument on this song. Also the other complaint that 'Raja is a tabla guy' is very much possible against this song. Added to it ofcourse is the selection of Arunmozhi to sing this song. Must have been SPB who should have sung it. If you listen to the first interlude you will see how Napolean the flautist is infinitely a greater talent than Arunmozhi the singer. The flute brings out so many emotions so very well, which the voice is unable to. Swarnalatha though is superb as always. This song is the typical early 90s song of Raja, reminding you of 'Ejaman' and 'Chinna Kounder' etc.

While I accept all the accusations I had stated earlier, these also lead to the accusation that he was 'not interested' and didn't work 'hard enough'. This is something I don't accept. Listen to the first interlude, as the flute plays a very complicated tune, the violins provide wonderful harmony culminating in the santoor playing some nice strokes. Observe how superbly the violins join in the charanam when Swarnalatha comes in. But everything is done under the principle I told earlier, the sense of peace. Again notice the second interlude. Some lovely santoor work followed by a calm set of violins, but if you observe there are two sets of violins playing an excellent harmony. As I said earlier, nothing abrupt happens and this is generally taken as something easy to do and not enough effort is put. I can assure you that the violin harmonies in the second interlude or when they join the charanams are not easy to write. There is a lot of complexity but Raja hides it under a very peaceful demeanor. I personally will say this is one aspect of Raja in the 90s, this need to let the tune carry itself and orchestration to be unobtrusive. He does that mainly in village based movies.

When he wants that sort of simple and harmonious flow, he uses the tabla as an accompaniment. In these cases you can observe that the tabla is not playing anything complicated. They are playing what in carnatic music is called 'sarvalaghu'. The simple beats keep getting repeated without any variation. This sort of gives a base for the tune to make changes and at the same time gives a soothing effect. The reverse ofcourse is that people may not find it exciting enough.

These are the type of songs which you initially think, "One more typical Raja song" but once you hear it a few times will be difficult to get it off your playlist.

I have no idea about this movie.

[app_engine]

Whereas in the female side of the equation, he did zoom in on some lovely talent like Swarnalatha and Minmini.

Absolutely Sureshji!

May be because I'm a boy, it's much less often that I find IR's female singer choices problematic :lol2: Take for example the "doors-closed" decision on LRE, or "only-rarely-used" decision on teecharammA, who kind of ruled MSV songs in 70's.

Respectful continuation of PS while making SJ the mainstay. :thumbsup:

Even the 2nd grade choices of 70's & early 80's, SPS / Jency, were awesome! They registered their unique voices and left indelible marks in the minds of TN listeners.

Then we had seen Chitra chEchi enter the scene and steal all hearts during the 80's and also 90's! Like you mentioned, SL had some great numbers too. Most others (Sunanda, Minmini and the likes) did decent job too. (puthripAsam is a different thing but she didn't get that many numbers, IMHO:wink:)

Well, let me stop this rant about singers and let you continue the useful discussion :-)

[Devaraagam]

Suresh,


When did you post these many numbers. Just noticed this thread and thread name is nice as I used to tell raja is always raja even in 90's oonly people did not notice his songs due to various diversion.


Completed all your posts in single gulp. Hre is my info a put the songs.


Sunantha: one of my fav singer as she has nasal voice. Here is the songs sung. by her for IR.

sunantha's 1st song for IR is kadhal mayakkam from the film pudumai penn along with jayachandrn. She got famous is this song and mannava mannava from wv. There are other lovey numbers by her

Nambinen maharajaney from the movie kattalai. (solo)
Ayya from dharmaseelan (solo)

Both the songs are sad songs but her voice suits the mood. Another one coming to my mind is poo mudithu from en Purushanthaan enakku matti than.


I like arunmozhi but not on punnaivana. Because I felt he sung very flat on that song. I have doubt just because arunmozhi the hero did not show any expression or because of this hero Arun sung like it. ( hero is a son some minister or MLA and it's their own production. Serenade was the actress after this movie they got married. Look I am sharing more important information of the movies :) )

Good thread. I can share other information of the song.

[app_engine]

We will probably get to discuss the singers, the recording quality, synth usage, template tune and much more.

Hopefully this includes the kavingar kootam of 90's - most of which didnt leave any significant mark...veteran Vali was possibly in his old self but did anyone else shine in late 80's & 90's i.e. post-VM?

[Sureshs65]

Devaragam,

Welcome. I had posted this thread link of twitter. You seem to have missed it. Great info you have given. And since 90s is your territory will be looking forward to more info from your side.

app_eng,

Absolutely. We _must_ discuss poets and their 'contributions'. No escaping that at all :D

[rajeshkrv]

app,

Fully agree with you. After probably a couple of more songs I want to put forward a comparison with the hits of those days and see for what reason some of the Raja songs did not become as famous as others. We will probably get to discuss the singers, the recording quality, synth usage, template tune and much more. As of now, all I can is that I fully agree with you. The number songs that Mano and Arunmozhi was disproportionate to their talent. Unfortunate but true. Whereas in the female side of the equation, he did zoom in on some lovely talent like Swarnalatha and Minmini.

I feel we should stick to the topic instead of bashing some singers here

[San_K]

Suresh :clap: nice thread :thumbsup: enakku raajatta pidichchathu ennana, unlike MSV who changed slightly towards raaja style after Raaja entered, Raaja did not change his style of music making :thumbsup: naan podurathu thaanda paatu :smokesmile:.

Sevvanthi had another fine number Semmene, both songs were hit among music lovers

[udebaqifoz]

Suresh65
Beautiful song. It is very complex as a tune and you have discussed all that needs to be discussed. But I do seem to agree with your opinion. There is a calmness in the tune. I would like to state that I feel this tune is complex like his 80s tune but just that he has underplayed all complexities. In Mysskin's words, a Zen state is visible :D He was still making his trademark complex tunes but never showed it off like he did in the 80s. I say this because this tune has a counterpoint running through the length. But it is seamless as a tune. He isn't showing off that he is composing a counterpoint. It is just there, like it is meant to be. The counterpoint continues in the charanam too with violins and the vocals and again it is subtle.
As for the discussion on singers, it is a well known fact that SPB was very busy in Telugu in the 90s and hence Raaja had to make do with Arunmozhi and Mano. However, I don't think they reached the heights a Malaysia Vasudevan reached under Raaja.

[udebaqifoz]

Another minor point. I don't know if it is the recording quality, but I do hear Raaja's violins sound different from the very late 80s ('89 onwards). For example, the violins in the interlude of ILavattam in My Dear Marthandan (1990?) have a refined touch to them when compared to the violins in say Poongathave Thaazhthiravaai. This could simply be better recording quality with the ages.
And does this song, Punnai vana poonkuyile, feel similar to Thooliye aada vandha? Or is it just me?

[Sureshs65]

rajeshkrv,

Point taken. The idea definitely is not to bash any singer per se but to analyze Raja's music. Only when the analysis shows that either the lyricist or the singer have not been upto the mark and may have had a detrimental effect of the song, we will highlight it. We will stop generalizing on singer's singing ability and stick to the song in discussion. Hope that is fair.

[Sureshs65]

Sanjeevi,

I understand what you are saying. I would put it differently. Raja did change is approach to music but did not change it to be a copy of the current trend. Rather it was a sort of evolution of his own philosophy. We will probably discuss this more when we see how Raja used the synth as against how it was used by Rahman, Deva and others during that time.

[Sureshs65]

VG,

Nice point about the 'Zen' thing :) What surprises me even today is how is it that this man, in probably one of the turbulent phase in his career, (being dethroned as the king of Tamil film music and people moving away lock, stock and barrel towards a new music director), produces such 'Zen' melodies. It is almost as if the external world didn't touch him at all and he was in great peace with himself. Ofcourse the synth usage may give us a different opinion but songs such as these in those turbulent times are a wonder. What I mean here is, exactly at a time when showing off would have been expected to counter the competition, this man doesn't do it but rather sticks closely to his philosophy of the song being necessarily a part of the film.

And a right observation about violin usage. The tone started becoming more 'rounded' as the years went and he started interacting more with the Hungarians. Observe how the violins play in 'thaavi thaavi' in 'Dhoni'. The tone is way way ahead of the tone of the 80s. It is not just to do with the recording but also how he is asking the violinist to play nowadays.

[groucho070]

rajeshkrv,

Point taken. The idea definitely is not to bash any singer per se but to analyze Raja's music. Only when the analysis shows that either the lyricist or the singer have not been upto the mark and may have had a detrimental effect of the song, we will highlight it. We will stop generalizing on singer's singing ability and stick to the song in discussion. Hope that is fair.Thanks for understanding Suresh. There are some of us who had no problem with Mano, and we had enough Mano-bashing on the other threads. Innum bash pannikittirunthA, we'd be discouraged from visiting this thread. Not that it matters...

[Sureshs65]

groucho,

That's a fair ask. And seriously all of us have said what we have to about almost all the singers. So going after them again and again will not make sense. At the same time, as I said, if a singer has added lot of value to a song, we will say it. Same way if a singer has not been upto the mark, we will say it. But we will restrict it only to how the impact of the singer on the song has been and not go beyond that.

And of course I would want all to visit and write in this thread. So people not visiting does matter. Given that the way we are analyzing can sometimes hurt people, please feel free to let anyone know if they are crossing the line. That will be very helpful and I surely want to respect everybody's sentiments in this regard without losing the rigor in the analysis.

[rajeshkrv]

groucho,

That's a fair ask. And seriously all of us have said what we have to about almost all the singers. So going after them again and again will not make sense. At the same time, as I said, if a singer has added lot of value to a song, we will say it. Same way if a singer has not been upto the mark, we will say it. But we will restrict it only to how the impact of the singer on the song has been and not go beyond that.

And of course I would want all to visit and write in this thread. So people not visiting does matter. Given that the way we are analyzing can sometimes hurt people, please feel free to let anyone know if they are crossing the line. That will be very helpful and I surely want to respect everybody's sentiments in this regard without losing the rigor in the analysis.

thanks for understanding guys.

[Plum]

Mano is a great singer. In a recent manadhodu mano episode with Gopal Rao, he revealed that he has evne sung one song with RD Burman. Very few people have this sort of track record.

Mano: avar kooda oru pAttu paNNi irukkEn
Gopal Rao: apdiyA?(Wide aacharyam)? nIngaLA? avarOdayA? periya AL sAar nInga!

[groucho070]

:lol: A good show, brings in some great behind the scene artist.

The other day it was flutist who worked on some iconic Raja songs...gad I forgot his name, this is for you grouch :hammer:

[jaiganes]

:lol: A good show, brings in some great behind the scene artist.

The other day it was flutist who worked on some iconic Raja songs...gad I forgot his name, this is for you grouch :hammer:
sudhakar it is.

[groucho070]

Thanks Jai. I'd like to blame my old age for convenience sake.

[app_engine]

punnai vanappoonguyilE:

Excellent interludes!

They were long enough for my liking (even this aspect is gone in many songs in the new millennium for topical / referential integrity :-( )

So are the harmonious string sounds, very enjoyable and soothing for this melodious song.

Just another random thought - did IR get into this "non-innovative-rhythm-section" thingy due to the volume in later part of 80's & 90's? By just giving skeleten notes and asking his assistant to handle it? :roll: (Nevertheless, I love such tablA songs).

Also, is it possible that his association with MSV (rather re-association as a partner & not as an instrumentalist) had a bearing that resulted in such template / minimalistic numbers where orch gets somewhat "sub-contracted"? :roll:

[Sureshs65]

Song No: 6
Song: Kattaaya Kadhal Vendum
Film: Thozhar Pandian
Singers: Swarnalatha & Mano (thiraipaadal lists this as KJY and Uma Ramanan, which is wrong)
Link: http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR3692'&lang=en

My friend @rozavasanth on twitter told me that I was probably selecting songs which were fitting into my philosophy. He made it as an observation and not as a complaint. But it is a very important observation. The number of songs Raja had done in these years is so vast that I can cherry pick and prove any one philosophy. So we need to careful to include as many varied songs as possible and then try to understand what is happening. My thanks to @rozavasanth.

This song, you will agree, is quite different from the song I chose yesterday. Thiraipaadal lists the singers as KJY and Uma Ramanan. There is no KJY involved here. The first portion has a chorus completely and the second portion has SPB and a female voice. Sounds like Swarnalatha to me. Once everyone agrees on the female singer will update the singers part.

The song starts with a 'modern beat' and then the chorus joins in. The ragam in Dharmavathi / Madhuvanthi. It seems to be a song which is supposed to be raunchy. The bass, lead and keyboard give you a breathless effect. The interlude has both synth and some nice violins playing. Two female voices sing the charanam. The beat is a synth beat but some nice counterpoint violins in the charanam. The second interlude seems to be more in tune with the situation but a nice flute plays and the orchestration is different.

How do you categorize this song? I don't know. Raja uses Dharmavathi / Madhuvanthi, which he uses for such type of songs ('ennulil engo', 'meendum meendum vaa'), the melody is also typical Raja. There is synth in this song but synth has been part of Raja's songs in the 80s. Yet the beats in this song sound more like the 90s synth than the 80s.

It is will instructive to compare this with another Dharmavathi song which came during that period. It is 'ottagatha kattikko' from 'Gentleman'. Again, let me reiterate that this is a musical comparison of the songs and not a Raja-Rahman composition. Do please don't take that route. I am not sure how much this song was heard by people but 'ottagatha kattikko' was a definite super hit in the cities for sure. It was a major hit in Telugu and Hindi as well. I chose these two songs for comparison for two reasons. One the ragam in the same. Second both are a bit raunchy in nature. 'ottagaththa kattikko' has a very nice beat and definitely the recording is top notch. Whereas the recording of the 'kattaya kadhal' is not great I think. (Going by youtube and thiraipaadal quality.) Added to it there is a certain flatness in the synth beats. Not the resonating tone of 'Gentleman' song. The opening pallavi lines are also very catchy for the 'Gentleman' song with 'adikalai selai sollumadi michathai' immediately resgistering in our minds. And ofcourse Shankar's film was a mega hit and the picturization was liked by everyone.

Having said that, I would also say that the complexity in the 'Thozar Pandiyar' song seems to be a notch higher. Right from the beginning where the chorus is backed by the bass and the counterpoint violins in the charanam as well as how the tune twists and turns all point to a higher level of complexity. Was this the time when people also wanted to get back to a certain basic simplicity in the tunes after having heard the complex tunes of Raja for almost a decade and half? Was it the time they started appreciating more the recording quality? As Plum alluded to in an earlier post, the reason for one song topping the charts and another not being a great hit would have something to do with the changes happening in the society as well?

Do weigh in with your thoughts. And as I had requested, kindly stick to the music part and to these two songs for now.

[Sureshs65]

app,

I don't think he did it because of the volume. Believe me, writing counterpoints for the violin is far more difficult than doing some rhythm changes. As I said, I hold that it was part of the philosophy of music for certain type of songs. In the same movie you will find some such simple rhythm songs as also some complicated rhythm songs. I think at that time he felt this was the right way to create the mood he wanted for such. That is how I see it. As I said, this is such one segment of the songs he dealt with.

[jaiganes]

this is a great song - i think that male singer is mano and not spb. it was norm those days to use mano for satyaraj (remember naanaachhu neeyaachu from amaidhippadai which was the previous outing for the director - meesik director - actor combo). If I recall correctly - this is one maulin of a movie which starts with sombre satyaraj and ends up in aruva satyaraj with the screenplay going haywire. this movie had nithyanandam ranjitha as heroini and this was the only romantic song which had some musical scope and in that way was a 'break out" song for music director in an otherwise dry movie and hence the richness. the female singer is indeed sornaladha.

[irir123]

jaiganes - pls check your PM

[udebaqifoz]

Suresh65

Lovely song. Quite reminds one of Raaja's very own Vaanaville. Same raaga yes. Also, is it not a fact that while Rahman was immense in the urban areas to the extent of a monopoly in the mid to late 90s, quite like Raaja in the 80s, Raaja still held his own in the rural areas? I think that is the case even today with a number of composers mushrooming. I feel Raaja's 90s songs had a big reach in the rural pockets. It might still not be the reach Rahman got in the 90s. But I feel there is a case to be made that Raaja remained as popular as Rahman in the villages. Correct me if I'm wrong. Would love to hear the point of view of someone who lived in a rural region in the 90s. Did Raaja hold his own and more importantly, get airtime?

[udebaqifoz]

Also, male voice looks most certainly to be Mano to my ears. Female voice is closest to Swarnalatha. But cannot say for sure wrt female vocals.

[Sureshs65]

Jai,

Thanks for the clarification. Also VG says the same thing. Mano the male voice and Swarna the female voice. Thanks for the info on the film.

VG,

According to P_R, Raja was never away from the scene in non urban areas and he was always part of the soundscape and probably still remains. As we list of the 'hits' of each year (which I will do later), we will see that Raja has also been a part of the urban soundscape and probably because of Rahman's astounding success, we have all along believed that Raja wasn't there but the facts are proving otherwise.

[kiru]

Great topic, awesome songs. Thanks and much appreciated Suresh65.
Re: the above songs - well it lacks so much in "coolness" compared to "ottagathai kattikkO".. what is your strength can also become your weakness. (viz. tunes based on raagams, I think).
Resorting to classical stuff takes the fun out of songs.. once the fun element is gone.. you are not a popular guy anymore, especially with the changing (younger) demographics in the country. But on the other hand.. melodies and serious tunes are likely to stand the test of time, if they are based on raagams.. after all raagams have stood the test of time and a great intellectual legacy of our ancestors.. anyways.. you win some .. you lose some.. but in my books IR is a winner whatever be the case :-) all IMHO.

[Sureshs65]

Kiru,

Thanks for the comment. I would love you to expand on the "coolness" component. I understand what you say and agree but would like to have your take on why you feel that sounded "cool".

About the ragas, I am not sure. Some of the best works of Rahman, which his fans even today quote are based on ragas only. Like 'pudhu vellai mazhai', 'katre en vaasal' based on Kananda/Darbari Kanada, 'kadhal rojave'/'en mel vizhudha mazha thuli ye' based on Kapi / Desh, 'mettu podu' / 'anbenum mazhaiyile' based on Anandha Bhairavi, 'hey rama' based on Panthuvarali and so on. I think it was more how Rahman used the ragas. They had quite a few standard and easily identifiable phrases with some modern pop arrangements. In my personal opinion he did not worry about giving new color to the ragam but rather use it in a straightforward but in a ear catching way.

And as I said, in music it is not about winners or losers.

[Sureshs65]

Song No: 7
Song: Azhagaana Nam Paandi Naatinile
Film: Pudhupatty Ponnuthaaye
Singers: Raja, Arunmozhi and Chorus
Link: http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR2977'&lang=en

The movie's name is 'Pudhupatty Ponnuthaaye". The song is about glory of the great city of Madurai. So we would expect a song in which the tune is fairly traditional and the backing is by traditional instruments. There are many times that Raja has given such traditional tunes with traditional instruments but here he experiments. Imagine, a song extolling the virtues of Madurai, Madurai and Vaigai river having an American country music backing and the shenai / thavil enter only in the interlude and then also the shenai plays something similar to the tune of the guitar. This song has a acoustic guitar strumming throughout and the chorus singing is very much reminiscent of the Western style. Yet, and this always the 'yet' in Raja's music, the song sounds so apt as a pure Tamil song!!! He uses the pentatonic scale (Mohanam) to create an excellent melody and combined with the words (who is the lyricist?) it sort of throws up scenes from Madurai in your mind's eye.

It is probably pertinent here to talk about how the definition of experimentation started changing in those days. I personally will hold this song to be one of the greatest experiments that year but I not sure how many will agree. By then slowly the definition of experimentation started shifting towards introduction of Western music and slowly with the increase in internet access, World Music. A piece to be considered an experimental piece had to have some recognizable Western or World Music elements in it. The key word there is 'recognizable'. The Raja style of hiding all influences and making you hear a folk or a normal film song was no longer experimental. Nowadays ofcourse people have started talking in terms of one instrument being Azerbaijan, another from Ethiopia and what not. This is good because lot of exposure to world music is obtained but all it takes to get some praise is to add some exotic sound sample and some exotic off the shelf beats. (Unless you are Harris Jayaraj, in which case you will be dissed whatever you do). It is very difficult to convince people that even within the confines of your own music experimentation can be done. Added to it, it takes a lot of internalization to take another genre and then create something which sounds totally different using that same genre. This song I linked today, no American will say it is an American Country song and we will swear it is about our own Madurai but the complete instrumentation is not ours at all. That is the hallmark of this genius.

[Sureshs65]

I must also state that I first heard this song when CRV put this up on his blog. (Those were the days when CRV used to put some lovely and rare stuff on his blog.) Then Ravi Natarajan had spoken of this song on his blog. Since then this has been a constant on my playlist.

[Devaraagam]

Amazing song suresh and one of my favourite number as it flows and create peace inside me whenever I listen to this number.

[Gregorysab]

Song No: 6
Song: Kattaaya Kadhal Vendum
Film: Thozhar Pandian
Singers: Swarnalatha & Mano (thiraipaadal lists this as KJY and Uma Ramanan, which is wrong)
Link: http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR3692'&lang=en


Never heard this song before and the moment i heard it now, i fell in love with it. The synth quotient characterizes the mid-90s raaja for sure. And added to that, the Dharmavathi quotient. People must remember to quote songs like these when they talk about Dharmavathis of Raaja (instead of taking the standard example of Meendum Meendum Vaa"). And what the hell is he doing with that 2nd interlude. It sounds so much like a live jazz concert kind of thing... Did raaja forget that it is a film song. Look at that, piece with flute... just synth-bass lines, flute and elec-piano.. goosebumps! Beautifully constructed charanams too! if there is anything slightly underwhelming (given that all other aspects are topnotch), it is the rhythm section. A very flattish stuff, like you said. But then, its a nice song. The synth queaks in the background are the stuff that he was playing around with in that period a lot. Found similar stuff even in Telugu film Anthapuram. Undoubtedly, this song is an example to show that he was trying to do something different, within his own domain (thats why i always say - he is his own competitor). The charanam's tune is 80s raaja stuff while the canvas (and interludes) he choose was modern (for 90s). Fair balance between his 80s-self and requirements of the times. Great find Suresh.

[Gregorysab]

Song No: 7
Song: Azhagaana Nam Paandi Naatinile
Film: Pudhupatty Ponnuthaaye
Singers: Raja, Arunmozhi and Chorus
Link: http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR2977'&lang=en



Neat example! as you have rightly pointed out, this is one of the best experimental songs. But I doubt if World Music really came to people by then (1994 - this film release year). Internet too did not enter India yet (i think). As such, the world music scene in India happened much much later (post 2000 perhaps), with the advent of blogs, social media, youtube etc. I think people lapped up things that were just different rather than things that were "World Music kind". But you are bang on that the Raaja's method of hiding all influences is rarely noticed. I think general public never noticed (and appreciated) that even in 80s. They just liked the music but not many people bothered about the roots of influence, except for carnatic music. All that electro-funk influences and all - nobody knows even today. And yes, the internalization that Raaja does - is unique to him. He indeed brings elements from another genre and cohesively stitches them into his style that it becomes a piece of his fabric.
And I think the period of adding 'off-the-shelf beats' to make something exotic is now over (for every composer)... and thats because of more heavy exposure to international music and world music scene. If a pritham uses something from some arabic music, he becomes a trend topic on twitter. Such are the times now... and its good, because it forces the composers to construct a rhythm pattern themselves. It might be synthesized and looped but atleast, they are doing it themselves instead of directly pasting them. There was a period when that happened (even the mighty raaja fell for this option) but going by the current stuff (atleast among the albums that have decent music, if not all) in Hindi & tamil music scene, things are changing.

And yes, this song - is such a brilliant example of cross-over music. people not exposed to country music will stake claim that it is tamil folk. Americans will disagree that it is country music. And it is in that no-man's land that Raaja leaves his signature... as Raaja's land.

[Gregorysab]

I am also reminded of a MSV composition, for a private album (or film?) of his. A song "nadi vandha selvam" composed by MSV and sung by Raaja has such similar concept of western guitar riffs and tamil folk. A very beautiful song: http://www.muzigle.com/track/naadi-vandha-selvam/ Heard it few years ago and loved it!

[sivasub]

Azhagaana..... is one of the best songs that I have heard in recent times. I am one of those silent readers enjoying the views of everybody in this thread and seldom participate myself. But this song really made me stop the TV debate on Anna Hazare and since has been on repeat mode. Even now as I am typing this, I am actually listening to this song. This song clearly proves that you do not need heavy metal and high pitches to make people groove.... simple guitar, earthy rhythms and a lot of heart will make the song make people go gaga..... I am thinking how on earth so many people missed this song when it was released. Is it only because the name of the movie happens to be 'Pudhupatty Ponnuthaaye' - a rural movie that we so called urbans think is uncool?

[Sureshs65]

Aakarsh,

You are right about the second interlude of 'kattaya kaadhal'. Absolutely jumps on you since you are not expecting Jazz there at all and what a lovely bit he plays there. That is why his songs are such a joy. You don't know where those gems are hidden.

You are right about the world music influence being more a 2000 thing. Before that it was mostly the pop influence, especially the beats. They were probably store bought (or sometimes lifted.) As you know the early Rahman had beats of Vangelis, Paul Young, Dr.Alban and such. Later, as you say, once people's access to these beats became quite common, sounds were brought in from various other places. And as you say, it also pushed people to come up with something on their own. Still I do hear quite a bit of beats which are coming in from the West and lot of guitar sounds, which resembles the rock music of the 70s. Infact I hear the 70s rock influence a lot in Hindi film music nowadays. Ofcourse lot of good music is also coming in from people like Vishal Baradhwai, Piyush Mishra and like. Lets see how it evolves.

[Sureshs65]

sivasub,

Welcome and thanks for the comment. I was also surprised that so many people had missed this song. Ofcourse, 'ooradangum' from this movie was a major hit and that also is a terrific song.

[rajeshkrv]

nice song suresh.

puthupatti ponnuthayi had the popular female duet Ooradangum samathile by Swarnalatha & Umaramanan

after MSV IR was the one who atleast gave us female duets here and there..

Overall arrangements, music variations everything he did for Pudhupatti ponnuthayee and people thought this movie would do wonders at the BO (since the kizhakku seemayile team ) but it bombed and songs went un noticed except for ooradangum..

thanks for bringing out azhagana song ..

[Gregorysab]

Still I do hear quite a bit of beats which are coming in from the West and lot of guitar sounds, which resembles the rock music of the 70s. Infact I hear the 70s rock influence a lot in Hindi film music nowadays.

well, retro is the in thing these days! :-) i am fine with it.. because i like 70s rock than 2010 pop! infact, i wish people bring in those influences rather than going by "whats hit material?". we have certainly evolved for better, from the horrid times of nadeem shravan etc. anyway, digression ends!

[kiru]

Kiru,

Thanks for the comment. I would love you to expand on the "coolness" component. I understand what you say and agree but would like to have your take on why you feel that sounded "cool".

About the ragas, I am not sure. Some of the best works of Rahman, which his fans even today quote are based on ragas only. Like 'pudhu vellai mazhai', 'katre en vaasal' based on Kananda/Darbari Kanada, 'kadhal rojave'/'en mel vizhudha mazha thuli ye' based on Kapi / Desh, 'mettu podu' / 'anbenum mazhaiyile' based on Anandha Bhairavi, 'hey rama' based on Panthuvarali and so on. I think it was more how Rahman used the ragas. They had quite a few standard and easily identifiable phrases with some modern pop arrangements. In my personal opinion he did not worry about giving new color to the ragam but rather use it in a straightforward but in a ear catching way.

And as I said, in music it is not about winners or losers.

Suresh, when it comes to music I'd rather LISTEN to you .. than TALK to you :-)
Anyways, here is my layman's perspective -
A song has a character based on -
* rhythm instruments - tabla/dholak/mridhangam, drums, guitar, drum machines
* tune - style and structure of the tune
* lyrics - colloquialism, folksy, cool straight comtemporary language
* vocal style - traditional style, westernized, anglicized accents etc

As our society evolves we are becoming more and more westernized and our "indian" character in our music, food, clothing etc keeps going down. IR sounds (to me) more cooler than MSV and Rahman sounds more cooler to the younger generation.
Without any comparison, even with MSV and IR (say, the all time cool song en iniya pon nilAve) we can see they handle urban story lines differently. All the techniques they used to make the song "urbane" are used by newer MDs to a greater degree. If IR used drums and guitar for modern settings, Rahman has to use the "drum machine" to give a different sound. (well IR himself did that in agni natchathiram). So change is also part of the equation.

Re: raagams - any MD needs to use them gain credibility, but you can see that they have used "modern" sounds, even while using live tabla some efffects/distortion are added to it.

IR has now settled down on drums/guitar as the mainstay which was only used selectively earlier. As Subbudu opined (in reference to Rahman) - "rahman thaalaththai adippadaiyAga vaithu pattu amaikkirAr .. rAja avarukkEnRu oru varaimuRaiyai vaguthu kondirukkirAr .. adharkuL irundhu thaan avar seyalpadukiraar" .. I may not be accurate but it is the closest explanation for why IR will or probably not make "cool" songs.

For me, I am the most "uncool" guy.. I name my son as kathirvElan :-) ..or maybe I have different definition of "cool" but here I am talking about people in general.

[kiru]

Re: azhagaana from puthupatti ponnuthayi. Awesome, I love it. I am sure you guys like mEgam karukkaiyilE from vaithEgi kaathirunthaaL.

[P_R]

Imagine, a song extolling the virtues of Madurai, Madurai and Vaigai river having an American country music backing :lol:
Yet, and this always the 'yet' in Raja's music, :lol2: Yeah!

Must confess I heard this particular song only sometime last year. The hit song in this album is of course 'ooradangum saamathilE' which was quite the rage.

[udebaqifoz]

Suresh65
What a song! Beauty. You have quite nailed it in your description (quote panni smiley poda eppidi nu therila (oorukku pudhusu :D)).
Aakarsh
What a find! For some reason, the fill ins after each line in the pallavi remind me of Uravugal Thodarkadhai :)

[thumburu]

Not being such a great lover of "azhumoonji" raaga like Shivaranjani, I was put off when I got to hear "punnaivanathu kuyile" at the time of its release. But I liked "andha kanji kaLayatha" and infact I still like it beter than the Mal original as this was the one I heard much before. Thanks to legendary hubber Udhaya with his "diamond standards" recommending this song in the old tfmpage days. I took a relook and a liking too.
Need to listen to "idi idikkudhu" - Never heard this one. But Malligai mottu from Shakthivel is my personal fav , Swarnalatha's bountiful singing thru the labyrinthic tune

[Sureshs65]

kiru,

Nice explanation of something which is very difficult to explain :) I get what you are saying. The same thing happened up North when R D Burman entered and it resonated down south as well.

To a certain extent what Subbudu said was OK. But at a very strict sense Raja did not have boundaries. The only boundary he set was that every song _must_ have his stamp.

[Sureshs65]

Thanks P_R and GV. Yes, 'ooradangum' was a great hit from that movie. (BTW GV, if you are not using the 'lite version' if tfm page, you will see a 'Reply with Quote' button using which you can quote the sentence you want. I am not sure how it works on mobile/tablet if you are using one. Maybe P_R can help you here.

thumburu,

Do listen to 'idi idikka' and 'azhagana'. I am sure you will like them. Swarnalatha - Raja combo gave us some superb songs in 90s. A lot of those are hidden as well. Hopefully we will be able to cover a bit of that here.

[Sureshs65]

Song No: 8
Song: Vennilavil Malligayil
Film: Athiradi Padai
Singers: SPB, Chitra
Link: http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR0329'&lang=en

Honestly I am not sure if this song was a 'hit' and was well known or not. I heard it probably a year ago, when Rajasaranam hosted it on his youtube channel (He is known as Sharnkay there)

This is a 'mood' song. No, not that mood :) Right from the prelude Raja sets a very soft mood for this song and the whole orchestration is involved in enhancing the mood. The song too is tuned to be extremely soft in nature. The idea is not be too obvious about the softness and yet give you that feeling. Chitra and SPB do a nice job. And what a modern arrangement it is. Lovely guitars, superb piano work and the sax that enters in the charanams briefly. Everything reeks of class. I especially love the brief strum of the guitar which accompanies the song. Overall a song which should have had wider publicity and fame.

For those who cannot access thiraipaadal from phone, here is the youtube link, courtesy Rajasaranam

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZNLWPKKEFs

[rajabhakthan]

Correction, Sureshs65: it is SPB and not Mano.

[Sureshs65]

Thanks Rajabhakthan. Corrected.

[ravinat]

Vennilavil Malligaiyil is the song that brought the instrument guiro to my attention. Raja uses this instrument in this track that is otherwise used in Latin music extensively. Others have used it. However, in a melody, only Raja can think of such things!

Even when I went on holiday to Cuba and saw this instrument, sold in every little store, this song always reminded me of the connection to this instrument!

[ravinat]

Interesting topic of Raja's 90s. Somehow, I caught up with this period his work only in the 21st century.

There are several SPB songs in this period that are definitely worth discussing. There are a couple of them I will begin with. Feel free to cut me off Suresh, if you think, I jumped the gun.

1) Unnai Paadatha Naavum - Irrattai Roja - SPB and Raja at their innocent best! I wrote about this song in another forum as 'Theni Raja and Nellore Balu' song! Both of them deliver this song as though it is their only opportunity to show the world that they are very talented musicians. The lyrics are very meaningful - about the goddess of music. The tune is such a beautiful flowing melody and Balu ensures that he covers every crevice and twists that this friend would ever think of in his head.
http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR1182'&lang=en
There are no great orchestration skills that Raja demonstrates, but his genius in melody construction. I miss such songs even today. I wish today’s singers deliver such soulful tracks.

2) Chinnachiru Annakili – Endrendrum Anbudan – Balu/Raja again at their best. I would rate this among the top 10 soul ful songs of SPB in the 90s.
http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR0810'&lang=en
Looks like a situational song, but Balu literally lives the situation. The emotions in SPB’s voice and the melody Raja has created make it a repeat song in my list. This is one of Raja’s song that is hard to fast forward.
Why did we miss such gems?

[Sureshs65]

Ravi,

Thanks for the info on guiro. Now I need to look up Wiki to know about it and then check out how it was used in the song. Work to do :)

I am trying to go year by year and trying to fathom the changes in his music. Currently I am doing 1994 and numbering the songs. You are most welcome to let me know the song you wish to discuss. I will number it and put it up. You can do the writeup so that we have this archived in some place. Hope that is fine by you. So kindly check up the 1994 list from thiraipaadal here:

http://www.thiraipaadal.com/year.php?schYear=1994&lang=en

I want to do the numbering so that we know how many songs we have discussed. So kindly let me know which songs you would like to discuss from this list. I will list them here for discussion. Would definitely love to have your take on these songs from various aspects: instrumentation, techniques, chorus and more. Looking forward to your participation. I will save the writeup on the two songs you have mentioned and will put it up when that year comes up. ('chinnachiru annakili') is definitely a song I also want to discuss as it fits into my 90s Raja philosophy :D

[layman10]

oh that is Guiro!, knew it from watching Sesame st.

[ravinat]

Suresh
Raja uses the guiro throughout the song. You do not have to go looking for it. Guiro is a simple instrument that has a coconut type shell with grooves on it. You use a stick that comes along with it to create a sound as it navigates the grooves. The trick is how you use it and how quickly you do the strokes.

It was a pleasure to watch the Cuban bands play with it on the streets and this can create all kinds of support rhythms. They use moroccos, guitar, violins, drums and a guy starts singing and the rhythm flows. No electronics other than a good amplifier. I went to a restaurant where they came to our tables and played violin, guiros and guitar. Depending on the songs you choose, I will try and bring these things up as appropriate.

[Sureshs65]

Ravi,

Super. I personally don't have too much knowledge of the instruments being played other than the standard one. I am sure Raja uses lot of such 'non-standard' instruments. Will be great if you can point out those in the songs. And yes, the Cubans and the Caribbean guys have a very good sense of rhythm and the rhythms are so very catchy.

[Gregorysab]

Song No: 8
Song: Vennilavil Malligayil
Film: Athiradi Padai
Singers: SPB, Chitra
Link: http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR0329'&lang=en

Honestly I am not sure if this song was a 'hit' and was well known or not.

Overall a song which should have had wider publicity and fame.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZNLWPKKEFs

On the contrary, I think this song got lot of airtime, compared to so many other songs of raaja that came in this period. I cant vouch for Chennai, but in telugu, this song got very popular. The telugu version of this film was called Samaram I think. And forget telugu channels, this song got lot of airtime on ZeeTV, which used to air regional songs for 30mins every evening (i think). I watched this song multiple times on ZeeTV itself. And back then, while I was watching, I did not know that it was by Raaja. It was just a good melody for me, at that time. And later, I heard this song on various channels too - Gemini TV i think. If I remember it right, it was indeed a slightly "that mood" :-D song only.. picturised on Roja and Suman.

Compared to so many unknown wonderful songs of Raaja in this period, this one definitely got a much better airtime.

[Plum]

suresh - superb exposition of the Raja Conundrum(you could accuse him of the same you accuse others - using weld music instruments and style in tamil folk but you also get a result that others cannot - authentic tamil folk).


unless you are Harris Jayaraj, in which case you'll be dissed whatever you do

:lol:

[Devaraagam]

Interesting topic of Raja's 90s. Somehow, I caught up with this period his work only in the 21st century.

There are several SPB songs in this period that are definitely worth discussing. There are a couple of them I will begin with. Feel free to cut me off Suresh, if you think, I jumped the gun.

1) Unnai Paadatha Naavum - Irrattai Roja - SPB and Raja at their innocent best! I wrote about this song in another forum as 'Theni Raja and Nellore Balu' song! Both of them deliver this song as though it is their only opportunity to show the world that they are very talented musicians. The lyrics are very meaningful - about the goddess of music. The tune is such a beautiful flowing melody and Balu ensures that he covers every crevice and twists that this friend would ever think of in his head.
http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR1182'&lang=en
There are no great orchestration skills that Raja demonstrates, but his genius in melody construction. I miss such songs even today. I wish today’s singers deliver such soulful tracks.

2) Chinnachiru Annakili – Endrendrum Anbudan – Balu/Raja again at their best. I would rate this among the top 10 soul ful songs of SPB in the 90s.
http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR0810'&lang=en
Looks like a situational song, but Balu literally lives the situation. The emotions in SPB’s voice and the melody Raja has created make it a repeat song in my list. This is one of Raja’s song that is hard to fast forward.
Why did we miss such gems?
Ravinat, Humble request from my side, kindly give your suggestions to Suresh through an PM so that the thread will not get diverted and withstand the interests.

[tvsankar]

Devaragam,
inga share pannina enna......... andha paatai Suresh.. avaroda view la sollitu porar............. Ravinat...ivaroda message elllame GEMS............

[Devaraagam]

Aakash, in tamil too It was airing frequently. when people see the video might come to know the song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcB3SYif4GE

unfortunately, this song is in different category in you tube.

[tvsankar]

Audio sound is toooooooooooo good in the video.... so.. video parkama paaata matum kaekanam................... idhu
dhan IR songs kaekara style............

[Sureshs65]

Aakarsh,

Thanks for the clarification. Those were the days I was on tour throughout the country, visit all non-touristy places :) Those days the cable had not penetrated into all households. It was picking up steam then. Anyway, with regards to its popularity in Telugu I stand corrected.

DR: Thanks for the youtube link. Same way the lovely Malaylam song, 'shivamallipoove' is filed under 'Meena Hot' in youtube. EKSI.

Usha: Ofcourse, Ravi's comments will be something to look forward to. The only reason I want people to give me the song is so that I can number it according and add it in my database. As app_eng did earlier I plan to put up an xl file later for people to download.

[skr]

Wow Vennilave is a such a soothing stunner backed by lovely orchestration throughout ..Chitra reigns supreme with her wonderful rendition..
The sound of the guiro and those lovely chromatic touches add a lovely finesse not to forget those lovely sax add ons..
Song seems to be in Pushpalathika ragam which is a janyam of Karaharapriya without the Dha2.

Other songs of Raaja involving usage of Guiro
1) Ilamanadhil Pala Kanavu - Selvi (wonderful usage of Guiro having a very profound keech keech sound)
2) Chinnan Chiru - Meendum Kokila
3) Naane Naana - Azhage Unnai Aaradhikiren
4) Manodham Paadhaiyile - Kavikkuyil
5) Kai Vazhikidhu - Kunguma Chimizh
6) Kannil Edho - Poo Vilangu
7) Naan Pooveduthu - Naanum Oru Thozhilaali
And many more

[Plum]

Guironu edhai solRInga. idam sutti poruL viLakkuga.( endha intruemnt, paattula enga varudhu etc)

[Sureshs65]

Plum,

Here are some images of Guiro: https://www.google.co.in/search?q=guiro+instrument&hl=en&prmd=imvns&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=6lceUIyTIo_SrQfsr4CIAw&ved=0CE4Q_AUoAQ&biw=1280&bih=665

You can easily make out how it would sound looking at the images. Also I think this was the Burman's staple instrument :D

[app_engine]

prelude and pallavi of 'iLa manadhu' is a demo for guiro (http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR3258'&lang=en)

[Bala (Karthik)]

Mikka nandri Suresh and other contributors in this thread. Reading the posts in installments.
I also discovered "Azhagaana" (Pudhuppatti Ponnuthaayee) only recently. Either from a post in the IR section here or somewhere in twitter. What a coup by Swamigal!

[thumburu]

“Kattaya kadhal vendum” - No doubt a very interesting song in Raja's 90's experimental mode. But to showcase a Dharmavathy, I would definitely flag hoist the 80's Dharmavathi's such as “ennuLil engo” or “meendum meendum vaa” or “iLam cholai poothadha” .
Reason : This one lacks the wholesomeness. Jai used the apt “fat-fee” term to describe most of his post symphony songs. Long term Raja fans like me have been pampered and spoilt with creamy rich interludes that last a lifetime , where as here, when you perk up to the unexpectedness of the second lude , it lasts very brief , minimal and you are left craving for more and feeling incomplete. This is the same with the beautiful scale change in the second interludes of “vidiyum neram” too. What caused this loss of interludes? Director's insistence on just shorter filler music to cover up their inability to picturize? Or Raja's disinterest?

[Sureshs65]

Bala,

Thanks. Do post your opinions as well.

Thumburu,

Nice explanation but I don't think it is due to 'disinterest'. If there was disinterest, that second interlude would not have come at all :) I think it probably had to do with what was happening on the screen.

[Sureshs65]

Song No: 9
Song: Aadi Varattum Mayila Kaalai
Film: Rajakumaran
Singers: SPB, Chitra
Link: http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR3078'&lang=en

'Sithagathi Pookale' from this film was a major hit. 'Ennavendru Solvadhamma' was also a well known song. I haven't heard this song much. Infact I haven't heard it till now :)

Another atrocious experiment from this man. The song is about defeating the 'jalli kattu kaalai'. A sort of bull fight. Since bull fight is quite popular in Spain, Raja uses Spanish music here throughout the song for a Tamil 'jalli kattu' sequence !!! And as usual, you don't hear it as a Spanish song at all. You hear it as a normal Tamil film song, which is probably apt for the situation. Again, no clue on how he achieves this but yes, if you make a Spanish guy hear it, he will never say it is a Spanish song. He may see some influence. For us, it is just another film song. That is how well Raja internalizes his influences and hides them. That is the hallmark of his genius. At the same time, the lack of obviousness of influence, works against him with many people, including critics like Subbudu and many youngsters I met, claiming that Raja works within a small circle. The truth is, Raja draws from everywhere, he internalizes it and morphs it to our musical form. This can only be done by someone who is a genius. (Yes, I know I am repeating that word, but a new word has not yet been invented which can define Raja's musical brain.)

The pallavi itself shows the Spanish influence. Yet the chorus that he uses gives us a more local feel. The interlude is amazing. The charanam is so very inventive, with the chorus joining in at the right time, a very brief blow from the flute. SPB is in his usual energetic element. The second interlude with the sax, the flute, drums maintains a high level of energy. The whole song is a high energy one. The chorus is wonderfully used to keep the energy levels high.

[Devaraagam]

Suresh,

after reading your post I am relate to spanish in aadi varattum, now my view on this song is different. I liked this song from when this audio got released because its different and fast flow w.r.t music and spb.

hey man....now I am listening this song with different perception.

[kiru]

.. Since bull fight is quite popular in Spain, Raja uses Spanish music here throughout the song for a Tamil 'jalli kattu' sequence !!! And as usual, you don't hear it as a Spanish song at all. You hear it as a normal Tamil film song, which is probably apt for the situation. ...
Goddammitt .. you are right.. this guy is out-of-the-world .. The song probably did not get much air time probably because similar arrangement was used in that Vikram song.

[ravinat]

The track in Rajakumaran that attracted me a lot is 'Kaatule Kambam Kaatile'. This has the typical Raja element of unexpected orchestration.

The lyrics suggest that the song is very folkish. However, Raja starts this song with a very western style orchestration - strings in tremolo.

The rhythm of this song has a fine swing that lingers...

http://thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR3081'&lang=en

[kr]

I agree with ravinat. When I heard the Kattule track in Rajakumaran, I was stunned. I thought it would be a big hit - the fact that this track and this album like many others that Suresh 65 has been posting about did not get noticed or preferred led me to my hypothesis that what was happening during that time had less to do with the quality of music but more to do with the demographic and psychographic transition that was happenng in India around that time.... Great song

[Sureshs65]

kiru,

Yes, the arrangements do take you to the Vikram song in spirit. They do differ but yes, the overall arrangements give you the exotic feel you got in 'en jodi manja kuruvi' (That is another such superb transformation song. The pallavi line directly taken from some East European melody and then converted into some sort of Tamil folk !!)

Ravi,

That is a lovely song. I wanted to put that up but I thought people heard it a bit more than this song :D The more popular ones were ofcourse 'sithagathi pookale' and 'ennavenru solvadhamma'. As you say, 'Kaatule' has some unexpected orchestration.

kr,

Very nice input. And when we look at the quality of these tracks dispassionately, we have to come to the conclusion that more than the inherent issue with the music, it was the external world which was changing. 'Demographic' and especially 'psychographic' tranisition capture the state of affairs very well.

[Gregorysab]

The track in Rajakumaran that attracted me a lot is 'Kaatule Kambam Kaatile'. This has the typical Raja element of unexpected orchestration.

The lyrics suggest that the song is very folkish. However, Raja starts this song with a very western style orchestration - strings in tremolo.

The rhythm of this song has a fine swing that lingers...

http://thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR3081'&lang=en

This song was redone into Telugu as a bedroom song for Mohanbabu! superb orchestration but!

[app_engine]

Song No: 9
Song: Aadi Varattum Mayila Kaalai
Film: Rajakumaran
Singers: SPB, Chitra
Link: http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR3078'&lang=en


Nice pick, Sureshji!

Musically, brilliant / excellent...pAdal varikaL sound "forced / thrust" (the "natural flow" of TN folk which was characteristic of earlier rAsA songs missing).

I listened to this song for the first time when scanning thru all the SPB/IR numbers for the corresponding thread exercise.

Obvious fit for this thread ("unheard").

RVU's prior films had better pAdal varikaL, that sat nicely on the sweet melodies and those didn't make one miss Gangai Amaran (or similar "rooted" lyricists).

rAjakumAran songs were a let-down that way (the breezy 'sithakaththippookkaLE' notwithstanding).

[Sureshs65]

Aakarsh,

Which Mohan Babu film was that?

app,

A very pertinent point. To be honest, I did not 'listen' to the lyrics at all. In a way that itself is a comment on the lyrical quality of the song because if there is some spark in the lyrics, you automatically tend to hear it.

At this juncture, the role of lyrics was also very crucial. The pallavi lines of many Raja songs were not 'catchy' enough. Even the earlier song I posted, 'kattaya kaadhal vendum' is not really something which 'catches' you. It is fairly mediocre. And we can cite many such mediocre pallavis. Whether they were 'selected' by Raja himself or that was the skill level of the chosen lyricist we will not know but one thing is for sure. Many pallavi lines did not have catchy lyrics. At the same time, Vairamuthu was writing some very catchy and attractive lyrics for Rahman. I personally feel that Vairmuthu's contribution to the early Rahman success is not discussed as much as it should have been. Starting from 'Chinna Chinna Asai' he was giving lot of excellent lyrics for Rahman. 'en mel vizhundha mazhai thuliye', 'oru deivam thanda poove' etc do owe a lot to the lyrics of Vairamuthu. In case of Raja, many of us are used to not being bothered with the lyrics but it is a no brainer that good lyrics would have contributed to make the song even better.

[Sureshs65]

Song No: 10
Song : Nyabagam Illayo
Film: Priyanka
Singers: Raja & Janaki
Link: http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR2878'&lang=en

'vana kuyile' was a very famous song from this movie and got lot of air time. It is an absolute classic with so much happening in the song, both melodically and rhythmically. 'jilla muzhukka' also got some decent air play. It is also a very melodious song.

The song I have chosen is as good as the other songs in this movie. Infact I would rate this song very highly. A pathos song in which Raja does his usual experiments. Check the pallavi line. The first time when Raja sings, the backing is completely by the guitar, lead and bass. A typical rock accompaniment. When he repeats the pallavi, he gets the bongo/ congo to accompany him. And when Janaki sings the same pallavi he gets the tabla to accompany her!! In essence telling us that how you chose the accompaniment is left to your imagination. You need not be restricted by any one style. After the initial synth playing in the interlude, he takes us into an excellent piece of WCM symphonic work. And immediately he changes the accompanying pattern for the charanam. Here he becomes minimalistic making us focus on the tune and the tune changes. And what a lovely tune he conjures up for the charanam before looping back into the pallavi. The second interlude again is an excellent demonstration of his WCM skills. What silken movement there.

This probably a good place as any to discuss about voices. This was a time when Rahman had introduced and was using new voices. A lot of singers came on board at this time. Udit Narayan, Srinivas, Hairni, Hariharan, Unni Krishnan to name a few. This was also a very important reason why Rahman's music was sounding fresh. Whereas till around 'Kadhalukku Mariyadhai' times, Raja was still using his own set of standard singers. So not only was the violin / tabla thing which made Raja sound a bit dated, but also the fact that the songs always had Balu / Mano / Arunmozhi / Janaki / Chitra etc. Ofcourse, none of the singers introduced by Rahman rose to the stature of SPB / KJY / Janaki and slowly faded away but during those times, freshness was more important than virtuosity. (I am sure people will argue in favor of Hariharan, as person who has survived. I agree but when singing for Raja you can clearly make out that he is not at the same level of SPB / KJY. )

In this song also you can imagine people switching off on hearing Raja's voice. 'Oh no why has he got to sing' is a common comment I get to hear. To be honest, I am a hardcore fan of Raja's voice and expression. And I know many of the seniors here (Jai, Plum, Rajasaranam etc) are also great fan of his voice. Yet, I will agree that there are lot of people who are not comfortable hearing his voice. In this particular song, he and Janaki both get the expression perfect as usual. But both the voices sound a bit strained. Janaki's voice around this time was on the downward curve I guess. You can hear a bit of thickening in the voice and also a bit more shrillness in the higher registers. I know many people were not happy with Raja later selecting voices like Hariharan, Karthik, Tippu and not choosing the likes of SPB. But times had changed and Raja changed with the times. We will get to that when we discuss songs in the coming years.

[Gregorysab]

Aakarsh,

Which Mohan Babu film was that?



Allari Police ani oka mahaa boothu cinema :-D Check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOYowGRWDb4 (surprised that the song cleared the censors)

[Sureshs65]

Aakarsh,

HaHaHa :lol: What else can we expect from Mohanbabu? Was it directed by Raghavendra Rao or Kodi Ramakrishna? If so, it will be a 'kala kandam'

[ravinat]

Suresh

A funny thought about ARR's choice of musicians and singers. He was perhaps looking at the regulars at Raja's Navarathiri list: Unnikrishnan, Bombay Jayashree, Kadari Gopalnath and grabbed them even before Raja thought about it!

Jayashree and Unni were later used by Raja, but much later. He has still not used Nithyashree and a few others that Rahman was quick to provide an opportunity.

Unlike popular opinion, it is Vidyasagar who introduced a whole bunch of voices and never gets credit for it.

[Sureshs65]

ravi,

Nice perspective about Navarathri singers :)

Honestly I haven't followed Vidyasagar enough to know about the voices he introduced. Similarly, Harris Jayaraj gave lot of hits to many singers but he gets credit only for self copied songs.

[Devaraagam]

Suresh I am also admirer of Raja,s voice because nobody near to the feeling which brings in his rendition. But I was not comfortable to listen niyabagam illaiyo song because of its strained and no idea abt it as how it came out or purposefully released the song with that starin. Started listing the song to understand your points.

[app_engine]

Whereas till around 'Kadhalukku Mariyadhai' times, Raja was still using his own set of standard singers. So not only was the violin / tabla thing which made Raja sound a bit dated, but also the fact that the songs always had Balu / Mano / Arunmozhi / Janaki / Chitra etc.

This is very correct in the 1994 context.

However, without nitpicking, I just want to reiterate the point that contrary to the myth that "rAsA means only few singers" (like "rAsA means only tablA"), he had always been interested in new voices.

I've captured in this post who all were the co-singers to SPB for the 415 hit songs posted in that thread (http://www.mayyam.com/talk/showthread.php?8541-The-Golden-Era-of-Dr-IR-and-Dr-SPB-306-புதுப்புது-அர்த்தங்கள்-songs&p=900044&viewfull=1#post900044). There were 32 of them and only few of them were the post-ARR ones, like HH/SM. And many of them were either IR intro's or IR big-promo's.

[kr]

"Gynabagam Illayo" was my favorite song of the Priyanka album. Loved IR's voice and the orchestration.

[rajeshkrv]

Aakarsh,

Which Mohan Babu film was that?

app,

A very pertinent point. To be honest, I did not 'listen' to the lyrics at all. In a way that itself is a comment on the lyrical quality of the song because if there is some spark in the lyrics, you automatically tend to hear it.

At this juncture, the role of lyrics was also very crucial. The pallavi lines of many Raja songs were not 'catchy' enough. Even the earlier song I posted, 'kattaya kaadhal vendum' is not really something which 'catches' you. It is fairly mediocre. And we can cite many such mediocre pallavis. Whether they were 'selected' by Raja himself or that was the skill level of the chosen lyricist we will not know but one thing is for sure. Many pallavi lines did not have catchy lyrics. At the same time, Vairamuthu was writing some very catchy and attractive lyrics for Rahman. I personally feel that Vairmuthu's contribution to the early Rahman success is not discussed as much as it should have been. Starting from 'Chinna Chinna Asai' he was giving lot of excellent lyrics for Rahman. 'en mel vizhundha mazhai thuliye', 'oru deivam thanda poove' etc do owe a lot to the lyrics of Vairamuthu. In case of Raja, many of us are used to not being bothered with the lyrics but it is a no brainer that good lyrics would have contributed to make the song even better.

Suresh most of the RV udayakumar films lyricists were either RVU or Ilayaraja himself.

[AravindMano]

veNNilavil malligaiyil is Raaja va :shock:

I have heard this song many many times. This one is a cab-driver favourite. When I used to work in shifts, the late night cab driver used to play it so often. I didn't like it at the beginning - sounded like a Telugu dubbing song - a watered down Raja song done by composers who try to imitate Raja, but kind of started humming this later on.

[Sureshs65]

app_eng,

Fully agree with you. The number of singers he has introduced is a large set. Infact there was once an article in Anada Vikatan (published a year back again in the 'pokkisham' section) where he talks about different singers he has introduced and about their skill. He praises Jency a lot and says he expects her to do great things. He also says he introduced a singer called 'Illayaraja' who cannot sing in tune and is not a trained singer. Though he doesn't want to give any chance to this singer, due to producer's insistence he has to give chance to this person :)

As in 1992-94 context, when singers like Deepan, Uma Ramanan, Shailaja, Jency emerged in early 80s (maybe some in late 70s) there was definitely a freshness which everyone could feel. The era of TMS / Susheela / LR Eshwari was slowly being replaced by new singers. A similar shift happened when Rahman came on to the scene. The standard SPB/KJY/Janaki were being replaced by a new set of voices. The only difference being that in one case, legends were being replaced by another set of legends, whereas in the post 1992 phase, legends were being replaced by briefly flickering singers, who sang some hit songs, were popular for a few years and then became judges in reality shows!!!

I had spoken about this earlier. In the mid 80s, one reason why Raja may not have tried out too many singers was the number of films he did per year. In the earlier days, late 70s and early 80s it was at a manageable level. In the mid 80s, he was busy not only in Tamil but also Telugu and Malayalam, with Kannada thrown into the mix. These were probably times when he needed to get the song recorded as quickly as possible. So 'call the dependable guys' would have been the norm. SPB, KJY, Janaki, Chitra delivering songs perfectly and not wasting time. We need to take this into consideration as well when we speak about lack of many new singers in mid 80s.

[Sureshs65]

Arvind,

I guess this what equanimus calls as Raja-Lite :)

[Devaraagam]

app_eng,

Fully agree with you. The number of singers he has introduced is a large set. Infact there was once an article in Anada Vikatan (published a year back again in the 'pokkisham' section) where he talks about different singers he has introduced and about their skill. He praises Jency a lot and says he expects her to do great things. He also says he introduced a singer called 'Illayaraja' who cannot sing in tune and is not a trained singer. Though he doesn't want to give any chance to this singer, due to producer's insistence he has to give chance to this person :)

As in 1992-94 context, when singers like Deepan, Uma Ramanan, Shailaja, Jency emerged in early 80s (maybe some in late 70s) there was definitely a freshness which everyone could feel. The era of TMS / Susheela / LR Eshwari was slowly being replaced by new singers. A similar shift happened when Rahman came on to the scene. The standard SPB/KJY/Janaki were being replaced by a new set of voices. The only difference being that in one case, legends were being replaced by another set of legends, whereas in the post 1992 phase, legends were being replaced by briefly flickering singers, who sang some hit songs, were popular for a few years and then became judges in reality shows!!!

I had spoken about this earlier. In the mid 80s, one reason why Raja may not have tried out too many singers was the number of films he did per year. In the earlier days, late 70s and early 80s it was at a manageable level. In the mid 80s, he was busy not only in Tamil but also Telugu and Malayalam, with Kannada thrown into the mix. These were probably times when he needed to get the song recorded as quickly as possible. So 'call the dependable guys' would have been the norm. SPB, KJY, Janaki, Chitra delivering songs perfectly and not wasting time. We need to take this into consideration as well when we speak about lack of many new singers in mid 80s.

Same as my view, moreover the period late 70's to 92's, gap is huge because of this gap only people are feeling that Raja did not introduced much singers but after 92, many MDs came into limelight and everyone were introduced new singers, trend got changed when they start introducing new singers, the seniors went to reality shows.

Main reason for not introducing new singers is lack of time for experiment and the same reason for MSV too...he also done nearly 30 to 40 films per year during his peak.

[app_engine]

briefly flickering singers, who sang some hit songs, were popular for a few years and then became judges in reality shows!!!


:rotfl2:

nanRi for the detailed reply, Sureshji!

[app_engine]

-dig-

The funniest choice for judge on a TV show I've ever seen was Santhanu (KBR's son). avanellAm enna perusA sAthichchuttAnnu aduththavangaLai QC paNNa vuduRanga :shock:

-end dig-

[Sureshs65]

Song No: 11
Song: Ennamo Nadandhirukku
Film: Seeman
Singers: Shanmuga Sundari, Sattampillai Venkatraman, Chitra & Chorus (Thanks to Rajesh for the singer and lyricist's info)
Lyrics: Vaali
Link: http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR3253'&lang=en

I vaguely remember hearing this song. Don't know if this got air time or not. This asks one of the important question that Tamil films keep asking regularly: "What happened during the first night?" Here the query is asked by veterans !!! This song is more chorus than Chitra. She enters only briefly. The chorus sort of guesses what happened during that night and as you can expect the lyricist has to walk the thin dividing line between being too explicit and conveying the 'message'.

This is sort of a 'fun' song and as usual Raja uses multiple techniques to get this 'fun' element in. First is the choice of a couple of old folks who are chosen to sing the song. Second, the interludes, especially the first one, is so orchestrated, the synth and the screeching violins adding to the comic element of the song. The chorus and the way the tune moves in the charanam also keep the comic element intact. When you listen to the song and hear the words, you don't need to imagine how it would be picturized. Raja does the complete picturization of this song through his music.

When we are discussing a first night fun song with old voices, to many 'rukumani rukumani' from Roja will immediately come to mind. It was a major hit then. It is instructive to compare these two songs to understand how things had started changing. If you take this song, the whole song is clearly focused on the fun element and Raja never lets it go. Whereas in the Roja song, there is no one emotion which is kept all the while. The interludes are more drums based and clearly the rhythm in the interludes is for dancing and not to keep the fun element of the song. It is definitely not Rahman's decision here because that is how Mani Ratnam picturises it. My guess is Mani would have wanted it that way and Rahman gave what he wanted.

That sort of tells us how things were changing. The song being a hit or the song having something attractive (as the drums in 'rukumani rukumani') became more important than the song being an integral part of the movie. It had not changed completely then but the changes were slowly creeping in. In later days the songs would become more generic and many would shy away from 'situation' songs !! We must accept that generic songs, especially the love based ones, have been around for a long time. MSV / KVM had done it, Raja has done it. But along with the generic songs, there were atleast a few songs in each movie, which were tied very closely with the happenings on the screen. That would slowly vanish and the concept of a 'film album' would come up, wherein people want the songs for just the songs and not for what they meant to the movie.

I feel this could be because of two opposite attractions for the urban movie goer. On one hand with the exposure to western films increasing, the urban movie goer probably wanted a movie without songs, for he/she felt that songs in a movie were unnatural. At the same time, we are great lovers of movie songs and we don't appreciate songs which are not in movies. So a kind of common path was probably found with the movies having songs but which had no significance in the movie. That is, don't keep a song because a loved one died, don't keep a song because you are angry, don't keep a song where you are trying to inspire people to raise against injustice and so on. The popular movie directors like Shankar ensured that songs just happened at strategic times and at regular intervals and that the songs were generic in nature. This sort of put people at ease. Songs were not part of the narrative. They were just add ons which you _had_ to do for commercial reason. That logic probably kept the director and the audience happy. This is ofcourse a simplistic theory of mine but we can definitely analyze the way the songs changed along these lines I feel. (I must also put up a disclaimer here that I am not a great movie watcher and this theory is based on a small sample. I can be wrong.)

Raja, on the other hand, still tries to make the song an integral part of the film's narrative and hence you get people dismissing some songs as 'situation song'.

[Devaraagam]

Suresh my fav on the movie is sadugudu.....best song under chorus categ.

[app_engine]

Sureshji,
Good theory about nature and relevance of songs in TFM post-rOjA.

Actually it started with agni* (obviously MR idea, IR simply complied with it).

I mean, for a movie that was taken up seriously by critics.

And not a tossed-aside one, like, say a MGR movie or sakalakalaAvallavan. (Though agni* is a boring masAlA worse than SKV IMO, many people raved / continue to rave about it).

[irir123]

app_engine : cudnt agree with you more! remove the songs and BGM from AN, it becomes a pathetic caricature of a film! and if you remove the distasteful 'comedy' track which had nothing to do with the main plot of the film, and was obviously aimed at the front-bencher, AN becomes nothing more than a "nondikkazhudhai"!

Karthik and Prabhu shd be admired for even taking their respective roles seriously for an insipid storyline/script!

MR can and will never come up with an original screenplay a la 'the shawshank redemption' or, even a comedy track!

he even bungled up annan goundamani's mercurial talents!

[rajeshkrv]

Ennamo nadandhirukku was by late shanmuga sundari & sattampillai venkatraman

[Gregorysab]

Suresh

A funny thought about ARR's choice of musicians and singers. He was perhaps looking at the regulars at Raja's Navarathiri list: Unnikrishnan, Bombay Jayashree, Kadari Gopalnath and grabbed them even before Raja thought about it!


Was ARR, who was more into ad-films and fusion music circuit than films by then, really looking at something as private as Navarathri festival at Raaja's home? I thought his connections with Unni, Bombay Jayasree, Kadri etc were through his non-film activities (collaborations with L.Vaidyanathan, L.Shankar etc) such as his association with Madras telugu Academy etc. No?

[Sureshs65]

Aakarsh,

Ravi was clearly kidding. He was not putting this forth as a serious theory :D

[Sureshs65]

Rajesh,

Thanks for the singer's info. Both have done a terrific job. I did not get their details. I have now updated the singer details in the post. One thing which I still want to do is to give the credit for the lyricist but finding who the lyricist is, is becoming a tough job. Added to the lack of info in places like thiraipaadal or Paadal, Raja's use of multiple lyricist and many not having an unique style of their own (or maybe they wrote less that we couldn't discern their style) is making the discovery of the aspect very difficult. So any help on the lyricist from people reading this thread would be very helpful. I know people like Devaragam may have the CDs of these movies with them. So do let me know the lyricist name whenever possible.

[Sureshs65]

app_eng,

That is another pertinent route to take. To discover which of the directors started moving more and more towards the 'generic' approach. 'AgniNatchatiram' is clearly an example. Even 'Anjali' to a large extent was 'generic' wrt songs. 'Thalapathi' though was different with that 'Nanban' based song and even 'Rakkamma Kaiyathattu' adding a bit to the narration. My feeling is, if we analyse this aspect in detail, we may end up seeing that the more urban focused directors shied away from making songs a part of their storytelling, whereas those who did the 'rural' films didn't mind having songs as part of their narrative. Ramarajan, Rajkiran examples immediately come to mind. Maybe if someone actually does such a study we will know if such a conclusion is right or not. From very small sample size and at a superficial level, I feel that one set of film makers were not very happy with the heritage of song telling a part of the story, while for another set that was a tradition to be followed.

[Gregorysab]

Aakarsh,

Ravi was clearly kidding. He was not putting this forth as a serious theory :D

facepalm :-|

[Devaraagam]

Rajesh,

Thanks for the singer's info. Both have done a terrific job. I did not get their details. I have now updated the singer details in the post. One thing which I still want to do is to give the credit for the lyricist but finding who the lyricist is, is becoming a tough job. Added to the lack of info in places like thiraipaadal or Paadal, Raja's use of multiple lyricist and many not having an unique style of their own (or maybe they wrote less that we couldn't discern their style) is making the discovery of the aspect very difficult. So any help on the lyricist from people reading this thread would be very helpful. I know people like Devaragam may have the CDs of these movies with them. So do let me know the lyricist name whenever possible.
sureshji, those days no one put lyric writer name in the cds and used to see only on the cassettes. (exception INRECO cds).

[Gregorysab]

Suresh,

When you are discussing a song from a certain film. Also quote other good songs (at the end of the write up may be) in that film. Who knows, we might have missed out looking the musical aspects of something very popular and it gives a good opportunity to revisit them!

[Sureshs65]

Thanks DR for the clarification.

Need one clarification from all of you. Thiraipaadal lists both 'Vietnam Colony' and 'Magalir Mattum' as 1994 movies. I remember seeing them in Chennai theaters and I was in Chennai only in 1995. Were these 1994 movies or 1995 movies? I will according move them to the appropriate year. Similarly are there any movies which are listed as 1993 in Thiraipaadal which was actually released in 1994. Thanks in advance.

[Gregorysab]

wikipedia says Magalir Mattam in 1994.

By the way, are you already done with 1994 or what? I thought there were more.

[Sureshs65]

Aakarsh,

No. no. I am not done with 1994. Just wanted to know if I have to include these in 1994 or not.

[Sureshs65]

Aakarsh,

I have been quoting the more popular song(s) for the movie that we are discussing. Will continue that. When I finish the year I propose to list down all the songs which were bonafide hits during that year. And also list out the hits from other MDs that year for comparison sake and to understand what people heard those days.

[Gregorysab]

Suresh,

Thats very cool. I like this whole exercise. Infact, i myself wanted to suggest that you must, at the end of each year's list, list out 3 things:

1. Raaja songs that were strictly musically good (even if they did not impress people)
2. Raaja songs that impressed people (be it fans or general public) - basically songs that reached people and got airtime.
3. Hits of other composers.

This would give us the dynamics.

Infact, I'd like to plagiarize your idea of this thread and put up some songs (that I like) on my blog. But I would do that after you complete 1994 (and later each year). And also, I plan to add the not-discussed-in-this-thread songs as well (like Vana kuliye from Priyanka, which might have been famous in this forum previous and hence we did not discuss it any further in this particular series).
Essentially I'd like to compile the best of 90s songs of Ilaiyaraaja that I personally liked.
The whole idea of my blogposts will be the same - "What did Raaja do musically, in the wake of changing trends in film music?". So I would like to use some of the content posted here (be it thoughts or background information or interpretations of few musical pieces etc - basically stuff about which I too share same opinion).

Given Raaja's output, I think this thread will become extremely lengthy if you cover all the 90s in this single thread itself. Consider having separate threads for each year - so that each thread by itself will become a "go-to" location, for the best in a year, where the final post will be the summary with list of all good songs of Raaja and all hits. what say?

Also dont forget combing the Malayalam films, for Raaja has done some great work there in 90s. Ofcourse, the final list, with Malayalam songs included, might appear skewed when pitted against "hits of other composers" (because this will be in Tamil only)... but nevertheless, it will be a very nice comprehensive/reference list for fans keen to look at his 90s work.

and you need not limit this whole exercise to only 90s, but go beyond... till 2012 as well. afterall, its the evolution we are tracking.

[Sureshs65]

Aakarsh,

Please do write on your blog about the songs that are not being discussed here (because they were popular). You can also write more details of any of the songs here. It will be great if you start that in your blog. As you said, the whole idea is not to evangelize Raja (which we anyway do :) ) but to see how his music changed.

And all the three points you had mentioned I have in my mind. Also I will try to put up Malayalam / Telugu / Kannada songs as and when relevant. The only issue is that in Malayalam, where he had a continuous stream of films, his approach is extremely different from Tamil films and probably requires a separate thread on its own. My proposal is that first we will complete the Tamil film songs for the year and then we will list out the Malayalam movies he did that hear and talk about it.

We can probably decide on how we structure this thread going forward. You have given good suggestions. One thread a year may be too much. Probably one for 3 yrs maybe? Lets cross the bridge when we come to it :)

[tmrrmt]

donno if this song will fit in this thread - i came across this one for the first time yesterday: "sokkanukku vaacha sundariye" - what an outstanding melody ?!!

dont know how many more gems await discovery !!

[app_engine]

donno if this song will fit in this thread

I can vouch for one qual - "unheard" :-) Accordingly, it wasn't included in the SPB-IR-hits that got covered in that thread.

Whether it fits into other necessary criteria - Sureshji thAn sollaNum :-)

[Devaraagam]

Suresh pls mix up other language too and complete year by year so that we can understand the changes of raja

[Sureshs65]

tmr/app,

I heard that song recently. Which movie / year is that from? If it is 94 or later, we will include it.

DR,

Yes, we shall do other languages year after year.

[venkkiram]

Year 1992 பொண்ணுக்கேத்த புருஷன்

ஜல் ஜல் சலங்கை ஒலிக்க ஒரு தேவதை வந்தாள்

ஜெயச்சந்திரன் - சுவர்ணலதா

http://www.thiraipaadal.com/album.php?ALBID=ALBIRR00502&lang=en

சுகானுபவம்!!

[app_engine]

Which movie / year is that from? If it is 94 or later, we will include it.


sokkanukku vAichcha is from kAval geetham of 1992 (http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR1385'&lang=en)

So, fails to qualify for the thread :-)

[Sureshs65]

Song No: 12
Song: Singarama Nalla Oyyarama
Film: Periya Marudhu
Singer: Uma Ramanan
Link: http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR2701'&lang=en

The movie had the popular 'vidala pulla nesam', a lovely solo of Swarnalatha. Who is the singer in this song? Is it Uma Ramanan? Kindly listen and clarify.

This is one more song, which I will easily put in the 'Peace' category. Have not been able to get it out loop since morning today. Gives a very peaceful feeling. As I had said earlier, for such songs, Raja uses tabla mainly as the rhythmic arrangement in the charanam. This has been the style of Raja in many songs in the 80s as well. The pallavi will have some drums accompanying it and in the charanam the tabla will become the main instruments. As I had also written earlier, the tabla plays a very standard beat it such songs not disturbing the flow f the song at all. This helps in keeping the 'peace' quotient high.

Ofcourse, we must not think that since Raja is using the tabla here, that too in an uncomplicated manner, he is not putting effort in the song. Check out this song. A pastoral melody, where the starting hum itself establishes the rural nature of the song. The beginning of the pallavi is very nice but wait till it is about to end. When it comes to 'munnale adiyedutha' check how the violins wonderfully join in complementing the tune and finally forming the bridge to join the pallavi again. He could easily have let the tune go on without these accompaniment but he doesn't do that. He writes music for that part specifically and that immediately takes the song to a new level. As one friend asked on twitter (and friends ask this question all the time) who does he do it for? For himself could be the only answer.

The first interlude is a stunning one. What a superb interplay between the shenai and flute. As if one is asking the other some musical questions and the other guy is responding to those questions. And all the while the guitar strumming in the background keeps this competition up. Honestly, that guitar should NOT be present in this folk style song. But it is present as if it is really an instrument used by the folk singers of Tamil Nadu !!! And the guitar being there adds so much color to the whole interlude. And all the while Raja never overdoes anything in the interlude keeping the 'peace' factor intact. The charnam then does its own twist and turn, increasing its melodic quotient as it proceeds. And then those violins at the end, exactly like the pallavi ending. What bliss. And the humming after the second interlude. Again why? You never expect it and would not have felt its absence. But it's presence makes the song even better. All his touches are intact in this song.

[Sureshs65]

app,

Thanks. Yes, we can probably discuss it in the other thread of Last Raja song heard.

[app_engine]

like Vana kuliye from Priyanka, which might have been famous in this forum previous

your post on the song, in the IR-SPB thread (http://www.mayyam.com/talk/showthread.php?8541-The-Golden-Era-of-Dr-IR-and-Dr-SPB-306-புதுப்புது-அர்த்தங்கள்-songs&p=871442&viewfull=1#post871442)



Vanakuyile is a fantastic composition and very unusual actually. The pallavi lines are so tricky. Kudos to SPB for pulling it off so well. It is not at all easy to sing this composition (particularly the pallavi portions). and hats off to ilaiyaraaja for doing something different instead of a straight standard lalitha raagam exposition! I am not knowledgeable enough to comment on tala pattern, but the tune is definitely loaded with complexities.


:-)

[jaiganes]

Song No: 12
Song: Singarama Nalla Oyyarama
Film: Periya Marudhu
Singers: ??
Link: http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR2701'&lang=en

The movie had the popular 'vidala pulla nesam', a lovely solo of Swarnalatha. Who is the singer in this song? Is it Uma Ramanan? Kindly listen and clarify.

This is one more song, which I will easily put in the 'Peace' category. Have not been able to get it out loop since morning today. Gives a very peaceful feeling. As I had said earlier, for such songs, Raja uses tabla mainly as the rhythmic arrangement in the charanam. This has been the style of Raja in many songs in the 80s as well. The pallavi will have some drums accompanying it and in the charanam the tabla will become the main instruments. As I had also written earlier, the tabla plays a very standard beat it such songs not disturbing the flow f the song at all. This helps in keeping the 'peace' quotient high.

Ofcourse, we must not think that since Raja is using the tabla here, that too in an uncomplicated manner, he is not putting effort in the song. Check out this song. A pastoral melody, where the starting hum itself establishes the rural nature of the song. The beginning of the pallavi is very nice but wait till it is about to end. When it comes to 'munnale adiyedutha' check how the violins wonderfully join in complementing the tune and finally forming the bridge to join the pallavi again. He could easily have let the tune go on without these accompaniment but he doesn't do that. He writes music for that part specifically and that immediately takes the song to a new level. As one friend asked on twitter (and friends ask this question all the time) who does he do it for? For himself could be the only answer.

The first interlude is a stunning one. What a superb interplay between the shenai and flute. As if one is asking the other some musical questions and the other guy is responding to those questions. And all the while the guitar strumming in the background keeps this competition up. Honestly, that guitar should NOT be present in this folk style song. But it is present as if it is really an instrument used by the folk singers of Tamil Nadu !!! And the guitar being there adds so much color to the whole interlude. And all the while Raja never overdoes anything in the interlude keeping the 'peace' factor intact. The charnam then does its own twist and turn, increasing its melodic quotient as it proceeds. And then those violins at the end, exactly like the pallavi ending. What bliss. And the humming after the second interlude. Again why? You never expect it and would not have felt its absence. But it's presence makes the song even better. All his touches are intact in this song.
Another song that is fashioned like "country style" song - yet works perfectly for our rural milieu.

[rajeshkrv]

Rajesh,

Thanks for the singer's info. Both have done a terrific job. I did not get their details. I have now updated the singer details in the post. One thing which I still want to do is to give the credit for the lyricist but finding who the lyricist is, is becoming a tough job. Added to the lack of info in places like thiraipaadal or Paadal, Raja's use of multiple lyricist and many not having an unique style of their own (or maybe they wrote less that we couldn't discern their style) is making the discovery of the aspect very difficult. So any help on the lyricist from people reading this thread would be very helpful. I know people like Devaragam may have the CDs of these movies with them. So do let me know the lyricist name whenever possible.

Seeman's songs were by Kavingar Vaali.

[rajeshkrv]

Song No: 12
Song: Singarama Nalla Oyyarama
Film: Periya Marudhu
Singers: ??
Link: http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR2701'&lang=en

The movie had the popular 'vidala pulla nesam', a lovely solo of Swarnalatha. Who is the singer in this song? Is it Uma Ramanan? Kindly listen and clarify.

This is one more song, which I will easily put in the 'Peace' category. Have not been able to get it out loop since morning today. Gives a very peaceful feeling. As I had said earlier, for such songs, Raja uses tabla mainly as the rhythmic arrangement in the charanam. This has been the style of Raja in many songs in the 80s as well. The pallavi will have some drums accompanying it and in the charanam the tabla will become the main instruments. As I had also written earlier, the tabla plays a very standard beat it such songs not disturbing the flow f the song at all. This helps in keeping the 'peace' quotient high.

Ofcourse, we must not think that since Raja is using the tabla here, that too in an uncomplicated manner, he is not putting effort in the song. Check out this song. A pastoral melody, where the starting hum itself establishes the rural nature of the song. The beginning of the pallavi is very nice but wait till it is about to end. When it comes to 'munnale adiyedutha' check how the violins wonderfully join in complementing the tune and finally forming the bridge to join the pallavi again. He could easily have let the tune go on without these accompaniment but he doesn't do that. He writes music for that part specifically and that immediately takes the song to a new level. As one friend asked on twitter (and friends ask this question all the time) who does he do it for? For himself could be the only answer.

The first interlude is a stunning one. What a superb interplay between the shenai and flute. As if one is asking the other some musical questions and the other guy is responding to those questions. And all the while the guitar strumming in the background keeps this competition up. Honestly, that guitar should NOT be present in this folk style song. But it is present as if it is really an instrument used by the folk singers of Tamil Nadu !!! And the guitar being there adds so much color to the whole interlude. And all the while Raja never overdoes anything in the interlude keeping the 'peace' factor intact. The charnam then does its own twist and turn, increasing its melodic quotient as it proceeds. And then those violins at the end, exactly like the pallavi ending. What bliss. And the humming after the second interlude. Again why? You never expect it and would not have felt its absence. But it's presence makes the song even better. All his touches are intact in this song.

of course it's uma ramanan . 2 songs were popular from periya marudhu one is this by UR and the other one vedala pulla nesathukku by Swarnalatha.
Periyamarudhu had gangai, vaali penning the lyrics and thenkatchi ko swaminathan dubbing for Thangavelu (Thangavelu passed away halfway during the shoot of this film)

[ravinat]

Rajeshkrv

Good observations. I have come to expect such unexpected elements in his orchestration and this song is a breeze and has all his typical surprise elements. I concur with your thoughts.

Most of his folk, in my view is never pure. I call them 'clever folk' and wrote an entire series on it in my blog. He embellishes his folk compositions with ideas from all other musical systems he is aware of.

The singer is Uma Ramanan, very clearly from her voice and diction. Great song.

[Devaraagam]

Suresh,

Periya Marudhu is one of my favorite album, those who have not give attention, listen other songs excluding (vedala pulla and siingarama), thiruvizha song, alamara veru enga periya, poontheril yeri varum..... Singarama was aired frequently followed by vidala pulla in Suntv.

[ravinat]

Suresh

My comments were based on your original text, though I addressed Rajesh. Full view and regular views are confusing as I thought your comments on orchestration were provided by Rajesh.

Being a newbie to tfmpage, I hope you'll understand...

[irir123]

sokkanukku vAichcha is from kAval geetham of 1992 (http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR1385'&lang=en)

So, fails to qualify for the thread :-)

whether it qualifies or not, its yet another by-chance discovered gem - the beginning with the mrudangam and SJ singing the swaras slowly evolving into the song with the table (wow! what bass guitar work !!) and the 'sokkanukku vaacha sundariyo' line melody itself is 'sokkavaikkum' repeat mode category!

anyone for which raagam it is based on ?

i recall my chennai friend often telling me that IR's greatness not lies in his mastery of classical music, but creatively using a raagam in a light way without sacrificing the essence of the raagam!

how true !

[Sureshs65]

ravi,

No problem at all :) I also had this confusion earlier when I was using the text view. Nowadays I use only the full view.

More pertinently, coming to your comments, what you say is perfectly right. Raja doesn't restrict himself to just folk idiom when it comes to tuning for a folk song. He doesn't mind getting in external influences but he does that without sacrificing the 'soul' of folk. It is magical.

I have ofcourse followed your series on Raja folk closely. It may be worthwhile for you to link that series here so that people can have a read keeping our discussion here in mind.

[Sureshs65]

Thanks Rajesh. You are a treasure house of information. (Didn't know about the Thangavelu incident) Thanks for sharing. Will update lyricist for Seeman song.

[Sureshs65]

DR,

I have been hearing 'Periya Marudhu' songs in a loop for the last few days. Fully agree with you that it is a gem of an album. Will probably feature one more song from this movie at a later date.

[KV]

whether it qualifies or not, its yet another by-chance discovered gem - the beginning with the mrudangam and SJ singing the swaras slowly evolving into the song with the table (wow! what bass guitar work !!) and the 'sokkanukku vaacha sundariyo' line melody itself is 'sokkavaikkum' repeat mode category!

anyone for which raagam it is based on ?

i recall my chennai friend often telling me that IR's greatness not lies in his mastery of classical music, but creatively using a raagam in a light way without sacrificing the essence of the raagam!

how true !

sindh bhairav? :roll:

[Sureshs65]

KV/irir123,

Does sound like SindhuBhairavi. A typical Raja 90s number.

[Devaraagam]

DR,

I have been hearing 'Periya Marudhu' songs in a loop for the last few days. Fully agree with you that it is a gem of an album. Will probably feature one more song from this movie at a later date.

yes suresh but songs were not hit as the movie was big flop. IR used take spl consideration for sangili murugan (periya marudhu is from his production)

[Sureshs65]

Song No: 13
Song: Maan Kutti Nee Vaadi
Film: Pudhupatti Ponnuthaayi
Singers: Arunmozhi, Lekha
Link: http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR2979'&lang=en

I have already put up 'azhagaana thenpandi' song from this movie earlier. And we know that 'ooradangum' was a major hit. I am not sure if this was played often enough but if it wasn't it is a tragedy and probably tells us about the changing tastes.

The charanam of this song takes me back to early 80s or I can say even to the late 70s. Tabla accompanies the charanam but it is the tabla of the 70s MSV era, where there are some rhythm changes and not the 90s Raja's steady beat. The song starts with a lovely prelude, with violins and the keyboard synth merging melodiously. The pallavi has the synth drum accompaniment with the bass in the background and also some other instruments playing a very low volume level. Observe the piano like sound at end of every line. The interlude is an excellent amalgamation of violin, synth, flute and the brass. The charanam is what surprises you. Raja suddenly takes you back to an earlier era with the tune of the charanam. The second interlude in again WCM based. Overall an extremely pleasing and 'peaceful' song.

What I want to highlight here is that if Raja wanted he could have easily switched back to 80s or 70s. This song demonstrates that he had it in him to go back to any era he wanted. It is because he is one of our greatest artist that he refused to take this route and went forward with his music. I have been consistently stating that this refusal of his to go back to the past is one important reason why he is still relevant to the present times. Else he would have been just a past icon by now.

[ravinat]

Thanks Suresh for your understanding. For those veterans here, I will be more careful in the future. Unlike a blog, where some readers point an error and you have a chance to correct your post, you do not get such luxuries here :(

Now that Suresh has given me the go ahead for my self plug, here is the series on Raja's cleverfolk that I wrote some years ago...

http://geniusraja.blogspot.ca/2010/01/cleverfolk-raja-genre.html

[app_engine]

Unlike a blog, where some readers point an error and you have a chance to correct your post, you do not get such luxuries here :(


Your posts can be edited (i.e. corrected) by you :-) There's pen icon in the bottom of your post, for editing.

I correct spelling mistakes often after posting :-)

[ravinat]

Thanks App for the hint.

Suresh, Pudhupatti Ponnuthaayi is a great album overall. Though 'Azhagana' caught my attention more than others, there are two other songs that are very well done by Raja in this album.

1) Manam Poley Mangalyam - Nice Chithra melody. Very classical song (according to Vel's database, it is set to Hemavathi).
2) Madhurai Vaazhum Meenachiye - Though Janaki's voice is a bit strained in this track, Unni Menon has sang very well. Nice work on the nadaswaram.

[Sureshs65]

Ravi,

I too like both the melodies that you had listed. The first one as you say is based on 'Hemavathi' ragam and the second one 'Madhurai Vaazhum' is in Arabhi. There is also a lovely Jesudas song which I may feature soon.

And yes, as app pointed out you can edit your posts. if you are in the full view mode, below your post, you can see the "Edit' button. I too edit my posts often for spelling and grammatical mistakes.

[Sureshs65]

I had linked the wrong song earlier for the 'Pudhupatti Ponnuthaaye' song. Thanks to Aakarsh who pointed it out, I corrected it

[jaiganes]

Is some one gonna discuss the nayyaandi song that plays out ever so cheerfully in PPT?
Naadhasura vidhdhuvaan .... That was the song I was hooked to when the album released..
Check out the singers - very apt for Napolean and Vijaykumar on screen.

[Sureshs65]

Sure Jai. I think except for 'ooradangum' which was a huge hit, we can discuss almost all the songs of P.P.T. They are all good. I am sure you will love the Yesudas song as well. Have put the nayyandi song in the list and put it up soon for discussion.

[Sureshs65]

BTW, I am taking a backup of the posts (not the discussion) so that we have it in one place and people can search for the song easily if they want to listen later. Here is the link. It may lag behind by a day or two.

http://onlyraja.wordpress.com/

[Sureshs65]

My friend Arul Selvan (@arulselvan) , had the following to say in twitter, about the 'Ennamo Nadandhirukku' from 'Seeman'. Reproducing his post with his permission.

On Suresh's 8/8/12 song in Raja-Unheard years series
---------------------------------------------------
Suresh
That was a good analysis of changing trends in tfm that paralleled the changes in the profile of ticket buying, theatre going audience. There is more to that song though, and let us dig a bit deeper.

That song is of the kind what we may call 'tease-tunes';one of the canonical activities identified with youth in tamil culture from ancient sangam days that has been repeatedly recorded in literature. This genre stars off as thozhi-nayaki, thozhan-nayakan tease in the sangam era and morphs in to tease among close clan folk and finally reaching a stage where it shows up as baktha-god tease during bakthi era. Later it survived through thanippadalgal,sirrilakkiyangal in literature and in performing arts as koothu etc in successive ages and finally meets cinema in 20th century.

From early days of tfm, tease-songs were common as music was an integral part of narration in koothu and its progeny the stage plays. in songs of 50s and 60s we have abundant examples of this type with variations : muraippen-muraippayyan types,bunch of brats chasing a single girl and more. MSV and KVM have done songs with village-folk or innovative 'english' elements for these situations that still feel good. The 'youth' of the day liked it, elders generally didnot give a damn.

All was ok and within limits till IR and Bharatiraja happened. BRaja came with a story line in '16 vayathinile' that existed at an antipodal place from all the village-native movies that had been showered on tamils till then. The men were mean, garrulous or imbeciles and women were loudmouthed and generally clueless. Raja (the I-man) had already done enough removing the floor planks under the audiences feet on which film music of the day wallowed. The word here is subversion and that was what the two rajas unleashed on the tamil masses. The rest is history but it had a ring of the free mouthed street slang that one met in village street corners. The cities(ok,only one ie madras) couldn't take it. But songs and scenes kept appearing in movies.Some of the songs of this type like oram-po, vaadi-en-kappank kizhange outraged prudes so much that they banned playing these in radio and public places.
And it was a scandal. Raja with his music and Amar with his lyrics kept offending again and again with these tease-songs. Some of them contain words and phrases that 'good' guys like me never uttered even once in our lives. You need to listen to the choruses keenly to unlock them;it was like looking for 'evil' messages in 70-s rock which was a pastime at time by the way. And Raja used off-key voices, noise and animal brays to make the sound so that a subaltern aesthetic will seize the tfm by the hair and pull it out of the melodious pits it had descended by then. It was an aesthetic coup and it happened in our life time the likes of which are seen very rarely in the mass media that supposedly dishes out what the mass wants to consume.
The song you have chosen has all those ingredients built in. And orchestrated well to rub things in.
(I use the words subversion, subaltern etc on purpose. These are marker words that the critic show brows use as cues for something profound. Watch them chatter away very soon when they start talking about gowp-1 &2. That aesthetic was cultivated in Tamil for the last three decades and the lineage shows )

[Sureshs65]

GOWP-1&2 for those who don't know are two films which were released recently (Or I should say one film in two parts) It is Gangs of Wassepur. The music created ripples with some good experimentation.

[ravinat]

Suresh

Interesting view from Arul on folk work of Raja. However, I differ a lot from his view as he is looking closely at the lyrics and not at the musical part. Not sure, how he views the lungi/sickle carrying culture that is very pervasive in the TF in the name of rural subjects and folk traditions. In my view, Raja's success has nothing to do with what the 70s/80s rural films portrayed. To him, it is one more subject. He was able to do equal justice to complete urban thrillers such as 'Sigappu Rojakkal' or a SciFi type film like 'Vikram'. Recently, when Panju Arunachalam spoke about Raja, he said how he was particular about breaking the earlier criticism on Raja's work. When everyone criticized him as a 'rural' film composer, he surprised everyone with 'Kavikuyil' with Carnatic and 'Priya' with Western arrangement.

Raja is unique and even today misunderstood by a large number of Tamil listeners as a composer with only 'folk' as his strength. Nothing can be farther from truth than this view. While Arul's views make interesting reading, it does not give you a good understanding of Raja's approach to folk music. I wrote the entire series on 'Cleverfolk' to reset precisely such misconceptions.

This is not to shoot the messenger :-D

[app_engine]

What I want to highlight here is that if Raja wanted he could have easily switched back to 80s or 70s. This song demonstrates that he had it in him to go back to any era he wanted. It is because he is one of our greatest artist that he refused to take this route and went forward with his music. I have been consistently stating that this refusal of his to go back to the past is one important reason why he is still relevant to the present times. Else he would have been just a past icon by now.

:clap:

Excellent & sharp observation, Sureshji!

What a contrast to most other composers :-)
(e.g. HJ is yet to better his vaseekarA of minnalE)

[app_engine]

It's this "going forward" stuff that makes MSV-IR-ARR an exclusive club in TFM :clap:
(Though IR is way above the other two in this aspect, IMO)

[Sureshs65]

Ravi,

I don't think Arul was referring to whole Raja's oeuvre here. He was just looking specifically at the 'fun' songs, not even folks songs. His point is that in this area Raja was very subversive and attacked preconceived notions wrt the prevailing morality. He succeeded in it by shocking people using common words and phrases. So the post was very much restricted to this aspect only.

[Sureshs65]

app,

Very true. Lot of the great music directors of the past had moved ahead. People like S D Burman, Salil Chaudary are excellent examples. Burman Da kept changing to keep pace with the changing trends. That was one reason why he outlasted many of his peers.

And I also hold the same opinion that Raja in this matter far outdoes the others, not only in Tamil films but in Indian film music as well. No one till now has changed, adapted and been so relevant as him for 34 years and still counting.

[Nerd]

Sureshji, late entrant. Just finised reading all the posts. Thanks for doing this.


Vennilavin Malligaiyil is first time for me. What an amazing song. Eternally beautiful.

[Sureshs65]

Nerd,

Most welcome. Thanks for the comment. To me, many songs are first time and I am loving doing this. As app says, no need for coolie to do such sugarcane tasting :D

[Plum]

Suresh - mudiyala. As befits the positioning at the beginning of the thread, (art film vs commercial masala of app), indha threadai padkka adhukkellAm oru mood createa pNNanum.

konjam nidhAnamA post paNNunga. Oru postla oru sentence puriyaRAdhukuLLa, 10 post varudhu.

[Devaraagam]

I came to read today's post and seeing plum has different opinion :)

[udebaqifoz]

The first interlude is a stunning one. What a superb interplay between the shenai and flute. As if one is asking the other some musical questions and the other guy is responding to those questions.
That is what is fugue isn't it? And what a beautiful song "Singaarama" is! Some very fine lyrics too to go with it. Swarnalatha own it like anything.
I was talking with a Rahman fan yesterday on twitter who was mentioning about a blogpost which said it missed the Rahman of the 90s now that if Rahman remained his brilliant self of 90s, he'd have become redundant now. Something that fits like a glove to Raaja also. Of the songs in Raajakumaaran (what a song Aadi Varattum is! Second interlude quite reminds me of ThuLLuvadhO iLamai and also his own Muthu NatrAmam from Thiruvasagam.), despite having seen the film, it is only Ennavendru solvadhamma that sticks in my mind. I speak from the perspective of a kid who grew up in the 90s. I can also vouch for this in my generation of kids who grew up in Madras. Maybe these songs didn't make an impact due to picturization (it did not matter in the 80s because Raaja was ruling the roost. Uber songs like Sokkupodi Kakkathula Vechurukken from Maaveeran I'm sure are not very popular among most kids my age in the city today but would have got good air time in the 80s) in the 90s when Raaja's sound was being challenged by Rahman and Rahman was winning the audience over. Picturization which did not matter to Raaja in the 80s definitely hurt him in the 90s is my opinion.

[Devaraagam]

Maybe these songs didn't make an impact due to picturization Most of the Raja's songs went under the carper because of the usage and way it got picturised.

[Sureshs65]

VG,

I don't think it is fugue. I don't know the western music concepts at all but remember reading somewhere (maybe in Ravi's blog) that fugue is a repetition of the same musical phrase. Anyway I will leave the WCM experts to clarify it.

And yes, the picturization started having impact on the success of the songs. You had anticipated me :D The next post will be a song based on which we will discuss the importance of picturization in success of movie songs.

DR,

As I said, we will need to discuss this in detail.

[Sureshs65]

Plum,

:lol: As Vandu Murugan would say, "oru flowA poyitirukku enyA niruthara". Honestly I thought it will be great if I could do two songs a week. Somehow I was able to do one song a day. Just to ensure people are not overwhelmed by all the analysis, I deliberately did not post last weekend and this weekend. I intend to leave the weekends alone so that people get some breathing space :D

Anyway to ensure that those who want to read it later but don't want to search the posts, I am copying these posts into a blog. This will also serve as a backup for the posts (Would urge app_eng to do the same for his posts, if he hasn't already done it.) You can check here. I will also link the exact discussion page there as well. So people have multiple choices. The concerned URL is:

http://onlyraja.wordpress.com/

[V_S]

Sureshji,
What a wonderful thread! :notworthy: :clap: Superb analysis and great thoughts by everyone. :clap: You have really touched the grey area which most of us would like to know more. Many thanks for opening our vision. I have just started reading it, lagging behind so much. Your 'lite' and 'peace' mode analogy is very interesting and I agree. From initial pages I also tend to think in P_R, aakarsh views that the soundscape in 1994 till 1997 was still the same, but only thing I would like to add is he has not drastically changed his soundscape from 1997 to 1998 (within a year), rather it was already evolving from 1994 to reach to 1998 and beyond. Just like removing a cup of water from a bucket, without we knowing. We still think the quanity in the bucket is same, but it is not. He was silently using this search and replace mode but one word at a time that it was hardly noticeable. Just when we see a sea of difference we tend to note, yes Maestro has changed. That was very clever of him.

One thing I didn't like about in this evolution process, is the backing percussion volume. From 1992 we would have noticed, we started to listen to some greatly recorded tracks, but we could also have noticed that the overall volume of the song has gone higher, but IR's was still low. This made difficult to hear what the singers were singing as the percussion with same volume as the vocals overrides many times that we could not hear the lyrics clearly. We needed to sharpen our ears which was one pain point for me at that time (and for many ofcourse I believe). Even when Maestro was keeping it down and I was proud to say that 'this is the optimum level of background volume atleast when the singer is singing. This later on went to change even in IR's work which we can notice clearly in 'ennai thaalatta varuvaaLo' where the percussion dominates Hariharan's vocals, which I didn't like that time, but over the time, got used to it. Still would prefer the percussion underplaying especially when the singer is on. I don't know if my observation is correct, but these are little cosmetics which underwent changes from Raja's side to keep up with the people, but as I said these changes didn't go overnight, it was over the years.

[Sureshs65]

V_S,

Welcome to the thread. As usual an insightful post by you. Honestly I have not been looking at the 'sound' aspect till now, which is criminal, since 'sound' came to the forefront with Rahman's revolution. So I will be looking forward to posts from people like you and Kiru to point out the sound balance and quality of recording etc. My ears somehow end up hearing the melody all the time. Probably must be because in my younger days I used to listen to Radio Tiruchi on Medium wave from Hyderabad !!! Those who had keenly listened to radio would understand how this would be. When it is not yet sunrise, the reception will be quite clear but once it starts getting bright, the reception is half static and half sound. Later it will be full static. I used to hear till the time it became full static :) So my ears automatically take away the noise and zooms in on the melody part. Many a times when people are cribbing about sound quality and even singer quality, I am like, "What sound quality? Sounds good to me." At the same time I must also say that the clarity of sound in Rahman's recordings were quite clearly audible to me.

So please do step in and let us know of the sound quality and the sound balance. Will also invite Kiru to do that. In this year we are analyzing, the sound quality seems to remain like the previous years. I think with KM in 1995 this would change. Once we are through 1994, I think lot of people may have something to say about the sound quality.

[sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar]

Welcome back V_S! :D

[V_S]

Thanks a lot sakala.:D

Suresh ji,
Thanks. Sure will try to share my experience on the sound aspect. This is what I wrote in Maadathile kanni maadathile, but not sure if this is quite relevant here, just in case.


We can even notice that by 90s, Maestro was slowly moving away from the already treaded areas and trying to go more with the trend and people. Unfortunately people remained in his past and unwilling to move forward with him. You can see in this song. There is a Jaanavasam (maapillai azhaippu) followed by subha muhurtham. Surprisingly you don't see the 'maangalyam thandhunaane' or the Nadaswaram or getti mELam when Rajini is tying the nuptial knot which we used to hear in some of his songs. He made it so light and fun that you don't miss that. Still he never comprised on the tune (melody) or the grandness and in achieving it. How? He already possesses every biggest strength required in composing, be it orchestration, tune, arrangements including choir arrangements, genres, whatever you call it. Only thing he needed to do is little tweaking (cosmetics) to keep up with the trend, keeping his all other skills intact. He never compromised these basics while moving forward. He assures that his music is always simple and focussed to the end listener and hides all the complexities behind. He never changed all this, it is still the same right from AnnakiLi days till today, but people misunderstand/misinterpret that his music has suddenly become complex and not catering to common people. How is that suddenly possible? I would say it is the other way round. One thing is for sure, he cannot stoop down compromising his basics. From a small house to any big storey building architecture, all that is needed is a solid foundation. If that is to be compromised for a beautiful architecture, Maestro definitely sees a danger and we are all with him. This composition is one such which was built on a strong foundation (melody, raagam and singing) which glitters in its eternal architecture (choir, arrangements and lyrics) while Rajini and the whole team of Veera are fascinated by living inside this generously built solid structure, while Maestro just flashes a smile and moves on.

[Sureshs65]

V_S,

Perfectly relevant here since Veera is a 1994 film :)

[udebaqifoz]

And yes, the picturization started having impact on the success of the songs.

Indeed it was more pronounced in the mid 90s since the new crop of directors like Shankar and the old ones which had moved to Rahman like Mani Ratnam started paying emphasis on the picturization and it is a fact that Rahman's songs scored on the sound quotient and were better picturized.

[app_engine]

(Would urge app_eng to do the same for his posts, if he hasn't already done it.)

Me too lazy to maintain a blog :oops:

In any case, links to posts on the 415 songs are in the spreadsheet and anyone who wants to read can straight jump into that by clicking each :-)

[Sureshs65]

app,

I am not worried about people needing to read it. I am just looking at a backup here. In case forhub crashes some day and posts are not recovered, then we will have a problem!!! I think all your effort needs a back. You don't need to maintain the blog and all. Just copy the posts there (ofcourse this is a tough job though it is only Ctl-C/Ctl-V based) and leave it at that. You now have a back. Unless ofcourse you have a personal backup. (Unfortunately I don't keep a personal backup in any form. I just depend on the site to back it up. Bad I know but I yam basically a somberi)

[app_engine]

Sureshji,
I don't have any backup :oops:

I agree it's a good idea to have the posts stored elsewhere...should do ctrl-c/v to the jump drive...too much of a work, considering I'll have to do for 415 of them :-(

mella mella seyyaNum...



I yam basically a somberi

:rotfl: copyright Plum :-)

[Sureshs65]

Song No:14
Song: Vetri Varudhu Vetri Varudhu
Film: Amaithi Padai
Singers: Deepan, Surendar, mano and Chorus
Lyrics: Ponnadiyan
Link: http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR0169'&lang=en

Thanks to Devaragam for singer and lyricist information.

What a superb revolutionary song. We are all aware of how Raja gave the revolutionary song a terrific fillip with 'manidha manidha'. The violin usage in that song still gives goosebumps to many people. This song is in the same mode. What surprised me was the usage of Mohanam for the song !!! Mohanam, the pentatonic scale, is usually used for melodies. Raja has used it for fun songs and I had written about that in another thread. To hear its usage in a revolutionary song was surprising.

This is a completely chorus driven song. The start is by the chorus and sets the keynote for the whole song. The strings do come and add that extra energy but it is the tune itself that carries all the required energy with it. The chorus does a great job of transferring this energy. The interludes relentlessly keep up the energy. Check out the charanams and how the tune keeps the revolutionary spirit intact and how it ends in the ascend before joining the charanam. The strings play a low countermelody during the pallavi. In the second interlude, Raja moves away from Mohanam and yet it sounds so natural. We should also compliment the lyricist for the words are very powerful. Not sure who wrote it. Was it Muthulingam? Anyone who know details of the lyricist kindly help.

This will be the right time to discuss what VG has been saying in his past two posts. The need for good picturisation for songs to become hits:

The mode of music delivery was changing slowly but surely and it was around this time that the satellite channels started happening. The channels in their initial days, especially the Tamil ones, were dependent a lot on film based programs to fill their time and get instant popularity. The earlier mode of delivering a song was mainly through the radio and occasionally through TV, whenever Doordarshan deemed it fit to telecast a song. Those programs were few and far between.The dependence was on radio and tapes/CDs. TV almost played no part in the promotion of a song. With the satellite channels happening and with directors who were making visually appealing songs, like Maniratnam and Shankar, in fray, people started getting their dose of music from the TV channels than from other sources. With photography becoming more sophisticated and colorful, locations shifting to Europe and the beats becoming more western, these songs were instant hits.

Now, it is not that every movie was directed by such visually arresting directors. Lot of movies were still made in the old style, which contrasted wildly with the new style. It was as if people, especially the youngsters, suddenly discovered a chasm between these two approaches. It was as if most of these new era directors either moved from Raja (Mani) or went directly to Rahman (Shankar). With Raja falling out with Balachandar and Bharathiraja, it meant a few more directors were lost whose picturisation can be interesting. Many of the movies that Raja did, the picturisation was not great. It had never hurt him the the 80s or early 90s but now with the satellite channels coming in was not a factor which could be ignored.

Contrast the success, or lack of success, of the song I posted today with the tremendous success of 'thamizha thamizha' from 'Roja'. ( I know it is not a apple to apple comparison because 'tamizha tamizha' starts in a melancholic fashion and then proceeds towards the crescendo, whereas this song hits the high notes right from the beginning and sustains it. Also one is about patriotism and another about revolution. Yet for our purpose it is relevant I think) Musically you cannot explain the difference in the success of the two songs. You can explain it easily if you see how Maniratnam has used 'tamizha tamizha'. The movie was a major hit, the patriotism in the song was the medicine everyone needed for their inability to solve the Kashmir problem, and the song happens at a very crucial stage and is lovingly picturized by Mani. Whereas this song from Amaithi Padai, as far as I know, didn't make it to the channels. Times were indeed changing and Raja, as usual, was worried only about how his music would fit into the movie and not on how it got delivered. While in the 80s, many songs with pathetic picturisations or from flop movies, became hits due to constant airing by Radio Ceylon and AIR, it was not so during the TV era. TV medium was a celebration of success and was generally unforgiving towards failure. That is why many late 90s songs and even the 2000s songs of Raja remain unheard till today.

[Sureshs65]

BTW, can anyone pickup who all were part of this chorus. Can't pick up the singers.

[Devaraagam]

Suresh it's from Mano and chorus. Here is some facts, this song was not telecasters because manivannan used this in the film title. Moreover Muthu mani was not there in the movie. ( might be removed by manivannan as to movie quickly to showcase villan sathyaraj.)


I remover in one interview manivannan was mentioning that one point of time he moved from ilaiyaraja then he got realised that his style of making got changed as he use to keep more space for music so then agained he roped with IR until aandan adimai. In amaithipadi too, he used very extensively the music of Muthu mani in the bgm.


Let's back to your view, I got surprised as you selected this song for discussion because this was wildly ignored by the people , I can say complete amaithipadi songs and I gave attention to this particular song 2 months back dedicadly as I felt nice peppy there on it

[Sureshs65]

DR,

Thanks for the info. As usual you have string fundamentals in 90s Raja :) I could sort of make out Mano but there other voices there, especially when they sing solo. Not sure if credits were available on the CD. Do you by any chance know who the lyricist was? Didn't know this was a title song !!! Same reason why songs like 'Kaiyil Veenai Endhum' and 'Ellorum Sollum Paatu" didnt get televised.

[Devaraagam]

Suresh, few corrections, I was mentioning Muthu mani instead of solla vidu vennilave song :).

Here is the info required by you fortunately they mentioned lyric writer.

http://www.raaga.com/channels/tamil/album/T0000512.htm

Singers Mano, deep an and an. Surendar
Lyric by ponnadian

Below link is a bonus for you to understands ponnadiyan. I was recollecting to verify am I having correct person in my mind.

http://www.nakkheeran.in/users/frmArticles.aspx?A=7621

[Sureshs65]

DR,

Super. Many thanks for the info and also for the Ponnadiyan link. Am updating the credits in my posy.

[Devaraagam]

I feel IR used lot of lyric writer when compare to singers :)

[Sureshs65]

Song No: 15
Song: Munnam Seidha Thavam
Film: Vanaja Girija
Singers: SPB, Janaki
Lyrics: Panju Arunachalam
Link: http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR3959'&lang=en

This song was a late discovery for me. When I posted it here and also on twitter I realized that many people hadn't heard this and that was a surprise for me. The song from 'Vanaja Girija' which everyone had heard was 'othaiyile'. I think 'Unnai Edhirpaarthen' also had some play time. Folks have to tell me if this was heard often those times. Atleast in Hyderabad we did not.

It definitely surprises me that this song did not become more famous for it has almost everything that folks were looking forward to those days. An incessant rhythm, like the loops that we being used those days. Raja is not stranger to loops, not only the computer generated variety but the standard acoustic variety as well. The excellent and vigorous beat in the background forms a great contrast to the melody. The interludes are also constructed in very interesting ways. The charanams, as usual for Raja songs goes one step beyond the pallavi in its melodic quotient. The short bursts of violins in the charanam supporting the melody is typical Raja. The second interlude is terrific as well. A very fresh song from Raja.

So why is it that it not become as big a hit as the musical suggest that it should? Anyone has any ideas? What was it in those times that people did not appreciate this song? Was it that the movie didn't do well? Or was it because the singers were the same old singers? In one recent blog I read a comment which said, "Rahman liberated us from the tyranny of Janaki's voice". I know Janaki fans will be up in arms but that was probably a sentiment many youngsters of those days shared. Maybe those youngsters have different opinion now but that was probably a perception in those times.

[Sureshs65]

I got feedback from my friend @atlastdanced on twitter that this song was quite popular when it was released. So my questions don't hold water. Sorry about that. He had something interesting to say. That after the song was successful when released, he didn't get to hear it in the 2000s!!!

Looking forward to others letting me know how they heard the song and whether they had heard it when it was released.

[ravinat]

To me, Vanaja Girija is nothing but, 'Unnai Ethir Paarthaen'. It's truly a slow killer! This is one of the finest duets that Swarna sang. For almost half of the song, there is no SPB. When his turn comes, he just effortlessly demonstrates that he is the best in the business. One more track where he displays his 'mandhira kural'.

I like the way Raja has used violins in this track - very different from his usual contrapunctal arrangement. Peaceful co-existense of Raja's violins with the synthesizers! The choir arrangement in the pallavi and charanam along with the violins can just transport you out of this world. In the charanam, only the chorus is in the background for the first/last few bars along with the synthesizer.

The second interlude is just riveting and it strikes me as initially as synthesized violins followed by real ones. However, it's hard to guess which is real and which is not, given the technology.

[Gregorysab]

Song No: 15
Song: Munnam Seidha Thavam
Film: Vanaja Girija
Singers: SPB, Janaki
Lyrics: Panju Arunachalam
Link: http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR3959'&lang=en

This song was a late discovery for me. When I posted it here and also on twitter I realized that many people hadn't heard this and that was a surprise for me. The song from 'Vanaja Girija' which everyone had heard was 'othaiyile'. I think 'Unnai Edhirpaarthen' also had some play time. Folks have to tell me if this was heard often those times. Atleast in Hyderabad we did not.

It definitely surprises me that this song did not become more famous for it has almost everything that folks were looking forward to those days. An incessant rhythm, like the loops that we being used those days. Raja is not stranger to loops, not only the computer generated variety but the standard acoustic variety as well. The excellent and vigorous beat in the background forms a great contrast to the melody. The interludes are also constructed in very interesting ways. The charanams, as usual for Raja songs goes one step beyond the pallavi in its melodic quotient. The short bursts of violins in the charanam supporting the melody is typical Raja. The second interlude is terrific as well. A very fresh song from Raja.

So why is it that it not become as big a hit as the musical suggest that it should? Anyone has any ideas? What was it in those times that people did not appreciate this song? Was it that the movie didn't do well? Or was it because the singers were the same old singers? In one recent blog I read a comment which said, "Rahman liberated us from the tyranny of Janaki's voice". I know Janaki fans will be up in arms but that was probably a sentiment many youngsters of those days shared. Maybe those youngsters have different opinion now but that was probably a perception in those times.

Suresh,

We certainly share some intuition. Just this evening, I shared this song with two of my close friends (in the US), over email and wrote a small paragraph, on my impressions about this song. Basically I have been sending the links you have been discussing in this thread, to them since few days (it is my friend who suggested that I too write a blogpost covering each year's missed gems by Raaja). And this evening, I did not even wait for your next post and casually sent an email to them about this very song (dont know why i picked this song.. i just picked it thats all). And now, I see this song being discussed by you. Jawdropping coincidence (and i remember something similar happened few times between you and me, on twitter :-) ).

My email to my friends this evening:


Another 90s song:

Munnam Seidha: http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR3959'&lang=en

What to look for: Very unusual of Raaja to use such kind of rhythm (box) in loop. Was he giving in to the order of the day? But the tune is not as straight forward as typical catchy songs that were coming up. Interesting structure of pallavi - one lengthy line, one very short line and lengthy line again. Sounds like Keeravani. 2nd interlude rocks.

[Sureshs65]

Ravi,

Yes, that's a killer of a song. I am on love with both 'unnai edhirparthen' and 'munnam seidha'. These two are enough for me to qualify this film as a musical hit :D

Aakarsh,

Well, we have become similar Raja fans :) Or maybe great minds think alike :D It could also be that we were looking into 1994 but it is still a great coincidence that we pick the same song on the same day!!!

[Gregorysab]

Aakarsh,

Well, we have become similar Raja fans :) Or maybe great minds think alike :D It could also be that we were looking into 1994 but it is still a great coincidence that we pick the same song on the same day!!!

I was not even looking at 1994. Randomly went to alphabet V in film titles and clicked on this film and this song. :-)

[V_S]

Sureshji,
Yes, all songs in Rettai Roja were very popular. I still remember watching this song on TV and rushing back to stores to get the cassette. Even the film was well known (inspite of a remake).

BTW, Very nice write-up on Vetri Varudhu Vetri Varudhu. Really loved it and also concur with your views. I would also like to attribute non-musical factors (which you all know) more than picturization which affected Raja's reach. Even in the same year Rahman had Pavitra, Vandicholai Chinrasu, Pudhiya Mannargal, May Madham which were not well known for picturization even when the songs were hit. Still as you said, there was atleast one film of his which captured the audience in visuals. In that aspect every song in Kaadhalan was very interestingly picturized which captured everyone.

[app_engine]

munnam seidha thavam (http://www.mayyam.com/talk/showthread.php?8541-The-Golden-Era-of-Dr-IR-and-Dr-SPB-306-புதுப்புது-அர்த்தங்கள்-songs&p=873726&viewfull=1#post873726) got covered in the IR-SPB thread, though I mentioned my apprehensions about its popularity in that post :-)

Interestingly, it seems Sureshji convinced me that it was indeed a hit in TN :lol2:

[venkkiram]

"முன்னம் செய்த தவம்" - வந்த காலங்களிலேயே கேசட்டில் பதிவு செய்து பல முறை கேட்டப் பாடல். குரல்களைப் பொறுத்தவரை இருபுறத்திலும் இரு பெரிய ஆளுமைகள். ஜானகியின் நாதம் ஒரு பெருமழையை போல. நாதஸ்வரம் போல. பாலுவின் குரலையை அது தன்னுள் முழுங்கி விடுகிறது. பாடலின் அமைப்பைப் பொறுத்தவரை ராஜா ஜானகியை சுதந்திரமாக பாடச் சொல்லி, பாலுவை அடங்கிப் போகச் சொன்னதாகவே ஒரு பிரமையை ஏற்படுத்துகிறது. எனது சகோதரி ஒருவரின் திருமண வீடியோ பதிவிற்கு பாடல்களை வீட்டில் எல்லோரும் கலந்து தேர்வு செய்தபோது இந்தப் பாடலை எல்லோரும் ஒரு மனதாக தேர்வு செய்தோம்.

[venkkiram]

தேசிய கீதம் ஒலிக்கப்ப்படும்வரை காத்திருக்கிறேன். ஒரு பாடல், இரு பாடல் அல்ல. மொத்தமாகவே சிறந்த பாடல்மாலை. ஒவ்வொன்றுமே உன்னதம்.

[Sureshs65]

V_Sji,

Guess you typed the wrong name. It is 'Vanja Girija'.

Nice perspective about Rahman's songs which were hit but not picturised greatly. True, picturization was probably one of the reasons but may not have been the _only_ reason. I agree.

app,

Good to know you covered it. I did not check it before I put this up. Nerd comments as response to your post that 'Unnai Edhirparthen' as a bigger hit.

[Sureshs65]

வெங்கி,
பாடலை பற்றி அருமையான வர்ணனை. என் நண்பர் ஒருவரும் இந்த பாடல் தனக்கு மிக பிடித்தமான பாடல் என்று ட்விட்டரில் சொல்லியிருந்தார்.

[V_S]

Oops! I always get confused between these two films as both were starring Ramki and Khusboo.:???: I was referring to Vanaja Girija only. Thanks Suresh ji for correcting.

[rajkumarc]

Wonderful thread Suresh, love your analysis, great work :clap: :notworthy: .

Just finished reading all the posts. Many songs discussed are unheard for me and am adding them to my playlist after reading about what's special in them. Especially, Puthupatti Ponnu Thayee has some wonderful songs apart from Oorandangum.

[Sureshs65]

Thanks rajkumarc. I am very happy if some of the songs make your playlist. Honestly they are worth being in our playlist. We have missed quite a few good songs.

[Sureshs65]

Song No: 16
Song: Thenral Katre
Film: Atharmam
Singers: Mano
Lyrics: Vaali
Link: http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR0322'&lang=en

Songs about nature always seem to inspire music directors and lyricists. Raja has given us some wonderful tunes when it comes to nature. 'Sendhaazham Poovil' and 'Puththam Pudhu Kaalai' are two outstanding examples. This is a song about nature and the singer's interaction with nature. The song replicates perfectly 'thullum vellam', a flowing stream. As with the stream, which jumps with joy over the rocks that come which obstruct the way and flows with vigor in plains, the song too has these attributes. The whole pallavi is constructed that way. The high energy start, then the twist in the pallavi line which is similar to the streams jumping over rocks and a beautiful descent.

It is the first interlude chorus for which I will probably write half my yearly salary!!! Looks like he does some counterpoint with the voices. Again the same question: _why_ does he have to do it. If he had just let only the melody line proceed as it is, it would have given the folk flavor but he had to go and make some voice sing in the background enhancing the beauty. I do not know the technicalities but I guess that part would grammatically qualify as counterpoint. The jauntiness of the tune continues in the charanam with sudden twists and turns. Tabla proving wonderful support here.

Mano does a decent job in the song. The descending part towards the end of the pallavi and charanam are not easy but he gets them right. I had wrongly mentioned that 'muthu mani muthu mani' was from 'Athiradi Padai' in another place. DR pointed it out and I corrected it. 'muthu mani muthu mani' was from this movie. I am not sure if this was a major hit those days. As a comparison, in the same year we had 'Margazhi Poove' from "May Madham", which was a song on nature and was a major hit.

[jaiganes]

Song No: 16
Song: Thenral Katre
Film: Atharmam
Singers: Mano
Lyrics: Vaali
Link: http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR0322'&lang=en

Songs about nature always seem to inspire music directors and lyricists. Raja has given us some wonderful tunes when it comes to nature. 'Sendhaazham Poovil' and 'Puththam Pudhu Kaalai' are two outstanding examples. This is a song about nature and the singer's interaction with nature. The song replicates perfectly 'thullum vellam', a flowing stream. As with the stream, which jumps with joy over the rocks that come which obstruct the way and flows with vigor in plains, the song too has these attributes. The whole pallavi is constructed that way. The high energy start, then the twist in the pallavi line which is similar to the streams jumping over rocks and a beautiful descent.

It is the first interlude chorus for which I will probably write half my yearly salary!!! Looks like he does some counterpoint with the voices. Again the same question: _why_ does he have to do it. If he had just let only the melody line proceed as it is, it would have given the folk flavor but he had to go and make some voice sing in the background enhancing the beauty. I do not know the technicalities but I guess that part would grammatically qualify as counterpoint. The jauntiness of the tune continues in the charanam with sudden twists and turns. Tabla proving wonderful support here.

Mano does a decent job in the song. The descending part towards the end of the pallavi and charanam are not easy but he gets them right. I had wrongly mentioned that 'muthu mani muthu mani' was from 'Athiradi Padai' in another place. DR pointed it out and I corrected it. 'muthu mani muthu mani' was from this movie. I am not sure if this was a major hit those days. As a comparison, in the same year we had 'Margazhi Poove' from "May Madham", which was a song on nature and was a major hit.

I am a major fan of all the songs from this movie..
This song had nice lyrics (raaja generally influences lyrics when it is abt nature, poongaathu moongil isai etc. - it was nice when it spoke also abt "koyil koLaththa vechchi poraattam pannuradha" too). Between muthu mani and this song - very nice conversations between WCM and folk flute. one can spend entire afternoons in those sections - addictive and immersing.

idhu poaga - "Thagadhom thaanaththandham" - had drums and rhythms that went on to shape "Isayil thodangudhammaa"'s prelude rhythm section - thundering - but controlled... needed superior recording to bring out some nice interwoven rhythms..

[Sureshs65]

Jai,

You took words out of my mouth regarding 'thagadhom thannaththandham'. I have it in my list for this series. Will put it up soon. It was a toss up today between this song and 'thagadhom'.

If you look at some of the songs in this year, you will see Raja using such complex rhythms which keep playing throughout the song. I will discuss this soon by listing such songs.

[Plum]

Muthumani was a big hit. The only one from this movie. Those days we used to have a program called Superhit Muqabla in DD Metro. adhula 5Avadhu 6vadhu idathula indha album varum. ovvoru muRaiyum Thagadhom thanathandham dhAn pOduvAnga adhula, though. Radiola Muthumani dhaan. oru vELai, DD homely standardsukku Nitthi-figar song visuals otthu varalaiyO ennamO

[Sureshs65]

Plum,

Nice info. Yes, picturization could have been a problem for DD. Once I remember a Telugu song starring the actor Aamani, in a white dress in rain, which was probably 5 mins in duration was over in 2 mins!!! All cut.

[app_engine]

'muththoo maNi muththu maNi' ellAm even I've heard :-) Covered in IR-SPB list...I listen to the song from the vaNdi's hard disk whenever I drive the minivan (http://www.mayyam.com/talk/showthread.php?8541-The-Golden-Era-of-Dr-IR-and-Dr-SPB-306-புதுப்புது-அர்த்தங்கள்-songs&p=873707&viewfull=1#post873707)