New age IR's Raga Choices [Archive]

Gregorysab

6th January 2012, 12:42 PM

vel

6th January 2012, 01:00 PM

Though I have no complaints about Sri rama Rajyam or even the choice of raagas! but in general, I feel that I am seeing more of the usual ragas than the non-cliched one. I kind of agree with Thumburu - looking at all films as such. I mean, we dont have songs Amudhe Tamizhe anymore. I rarely see Malayamarutham etc. Vel's example of Senchuruti & Saraswathi are one off cases, and there too - I think a slightly lesser knolwedgeable fan (like me) cannot comprehend the ragas used. I mean, the treatment was such. Like say, when he gave a Saara yeh aalam in Shiva-2006, I who never knew simhendramadhyamam before, atleast felt that this was something different, something unusual, some very different raaga. And my curiousity led me to Simhendramadhyamam. I usually dont experience such kind of stuff in recent songs of raaja. The sample set has kind of shrunk to: Mohanam, Sindhu Bhairavi, Suddha Dhanyasi, Bhageshree/Sriranjani, Pahadi, Keeravani, Kalyani, Hamsanandi, panthuvarali etc or if he slightly goes further, it is a Suddha Saveri (Manasoram) or Charukesi (Aavani Thumbi). again, I am not talking about Rama Rajyam here, because he did explore well in that film - given the constraints he had. He did well even in Uliyin Osai. But i am talking about other films. In short, my request to him would be to dust those 'becoming rare' ragas such as Abhogi, Bahudari, shanmukhapriya, Sree, Nalinikanthi, amritavarshini, Kalyana vasantham, tilang, Lalitha etc. He never needed classical music-based situations to wrap the classical music richness in his music. That was his (highest) strength. I wish he chooses these neglected lot. challenging... but thats what he has been taking up all along.. challenges. Padithurai had raagas like Maand, Dhenuka and Saranga - How unusual they are! Unfortunately, the album is lying in cans. If only, he does something like that in other albums - that are getting released!

hi aakarsh, even i called it saraswathi since it gives a easy tag to relate to the scale that Raaja has used. It is highly incovenient to always say the scale SR2M2PD2S | SN2D2PM2G2R2S has been used ! So dont worry if you could not comprehend the raga name. Raaja sees 7 notes as 7 notes, more than seeing it as carnatic, western or folk. That is his greatest strength. He knows what addition and deletion and modulation will lead to what change in the emotion.....How many such rare permutations and combinations he may have already done, that we may have not even noticed, is yet unknown. For example, S R2 G2 M1 P N3 S | S N3 P M1 G2 R2 S is a rare hindustani scale, that is close to patdheep. Did we appreciate that Raaja has used this scale in many songs? Why, because we dont know the scale or are new to the scale. When there is no one to appreciate rare raga usages, our right to criticize the usual ragas being over used gets greatly diluted IMHO.

My whole point is, unless we first fully understand what is being served lovingly on our plate, it is unfair of us to complain about the meal !

vel

6th January 2012, 01:54 PM

ok anyways, thats her opinion/wishlist and she has every right to keep it. (Sorry for the digressions guys please move on with the thread topic.)

Gregorysab

6th January 2012, 02:00 PM

I get your point Vel. But I am not talking from a mere "Raaga recognizing" perspective! It doesnt matter if I dont recognize it. A Kannil Paarvai from naan kadavul was a raaga that I didnt know before. yes, raaja used it before but I didnt know that Kannil Paarvai was Rasikapriya. But someone with lesser familiarity to Raaja's repertoire also end up liking it - because of the shock value he gave to the song. Same with Abhinayam kaatru (Uliyin Osai). I didnt know the raaga when I heard the song. And even today, I need to do google search to know which raaga it was. But... it struck a chord. because it was different from the usual. I am sure that the same person might not give the same rank to Hindolam song in Rama Rajyam or Pudhu Pournami in Mohanam (which I like anyway). I have enjoyed a 100 Kalyanis from him and he still amazes me in Amruthamaayi Abhayamaayi. I dont complain that. But... for a change, why not an Amruthavarshini - a raaga which he used for mere 7 seconds in the beginning of Sri Rama Lera. Why just teasers? why not go full throttle?

Also, from a statistical point of view - All along 80s, his music covered a wider range of raagas. I am not sure if there is really no one to appreciate rare raaga usage today. If there is no one today, there was no one in 80s as well. And Raaja, always experimented to satisfy his own creative urge. I am sure Raaja might not have suddenly felt in 2000 - "Audience appreciated my Malayamarutham in 80s, now there is no such audience, so let me not choose Malayalamarutham at all". There must be some other reasons for this shrunken sample-set of raagas - Reasons which we dont know.

But whats wrong in yearning (or complaining)? Atleast, we have a selfish motive - to see him explore other raagas. Honestly, I cannot think of any other composer who can go into raagas such as Poornachandrika or Senchuruti as you have cited. If he is the only composer I can think of, who can pull that off with aplomb, i dont see it as unfair, in expecting/wishing it from him.

He exploring other raagas is like serving "specials" in food. I am quite happy with the meal plate for sure. But those feasty specials - which he dished out to the audience in 80s, occasionally... I would want them again now - mixed along with my meal plate! Now thats what he was doing way back. It is only now that he became choosy.

Suresh knows how much I have been craving for Padithurai - one of the BIG reasons being - usage of lesser-used raagas such as Saaranga!

vel

6th January 2012, 03:45 PM

Honestly, I cannot think of any other composer who can go into raagas such as Poornachandrika or Senchuruti as you have cited. If he is the only composer I can think of, who can pull that off with aplomb, i dont see it as unfair, in expecting/wishing it from him.

very valid point that ! :-)

6th January 2012, 04:15 PM

vel,

I see your point of view. Glad to know you are enjoying all his songs. For me, while vidyasagars are tuning rasikapriya's and nasika booshani's, he should be drubbing these guys aside and giving even more complex/sophisticated scales (or at least not run-of-the-mill). He had a great opportunity with sri rama jeyam, and when I heard the songs, I went.. oh.. not again. Not to crib on the melody or orchestration, I was just disappointed. The recent 3-note and 2-note compositions are some morale boosters though.. ;) Let's see on his future scores..

btw, the ros link is fixed. Didn't realise it was broken.

vel

6th January 2012, 05:03 PM

vel, btw, the ros link is fixed. Didn't realise it was broken.

Great RR! thanks a lot for fixing the link to ROS !!

app_engine

6th January 2012, 05:33 PM

Like say, when he gave a Saara yeh aalam in Shiva-2006, I who never knew simhendramadhyamam before, atleast felt that this was something different, something unusual, some very different raaga. And my curiousity led me to Simhendramadhyamam. I usually dont experience such kind of stuff in recent songs of raaja.

Well, 'sArAh yEh Alam' is not exactly recent :-) It was a recycle of the TFM classic 'Anandha rAgam kEtkum kAlam' from panneer pushpangaL (http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR2657'&lang=en) (you probably heard the original sung by Uma Ramanan and it arrived in 1981, not exactly a 2006-er :-) )

BTW, there were other simhEndra madhyamam rAgA based numbers as well...e.g. this gOpura vAsalilE number :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=326Usof7ZOQ

Gregorysab

6th January 2012, 06:13 PM

app_engine:

I knew Aananda raagam and I knew that Saara Yeh aalam was a rehash of it (upon the insistence of Ram Gopal Varma). What I meant was that I didnt know about the raaga of this one (and hence the raaga of aanada raagam song). :-) Anyway, my point is that, Ilaiyaraaja did it because RGV asked specifically for it - else, I havent seen Simhendramadhyamams (atleast an effective exposition such as saara yeh aalam) from him in long time!

Sureshs65

6th January 2012, 06:31 PM

Vel/ Kamal/ RR / thumburu

I think we must take a few aspects into consideration when we are talking about usage of rare or not so often used ragas. One is what Vel had remarked about. When he uses it, we do not know about it :) For example, what ragam is 'kaatu vazhi' based on? I am not sure what it is based but it is a wonderful song.

The second and the more important aspects according to me is the genre he is using. Nowadays he is very much into jazz and you can hear that aspect very clearly in his best compositions, be it for 'Gayam 2' or 'Sneha Veedu'. He declared during the live show that both he and Karthik Raja were learning Jazz from the Hungarian guitarist. That influence clearly shows in 'Snehaveedu' songs as well as the BGM of ASK. Now, in case of Jazz, if you are sticking to some of the grammar there closely, it may be difficult to use certain carnatic raagas as it will be very difficult to set chords for them. One of my friends, a musician himself, was remarking as to how composers try composing Sriranjani in the madhyama sruthi because in the normal sruthi, Sriranjani lacks the 'pa' and it is supposed to be difficult to set chords for a scale which does not have 'pa'. Now, I am no musician and I am just quoting my friend here. (Any musician (amateur or professional) reading this can substantiate or correct this.) So he may be constrained by the genre itself because he is trying out new things in jazz genre. That's why his songs are sounding so fresh. As in 'andala lokam' in Gayam 2 or the songs of 'Sneha Veedu'. Ofcourse we are still stuck in his 'tenral vandu ennai thodu' times that we want him to recreate that magic. The truth is, magic is happening in a different genre and lot of us don't seem to realise that magic is indeed happening.

Ofcouse that is not to say he isn't using rare ragas. 'neeraal udal kazhuvi' is based on 'Punnagavarali', a raga which he hasn't used earlier. As Kamal is mentioning, 'Padithurai' has a song based on Saranga.

We must also take into account the fact that Raja is doing far less movies than what he was doing at his peak. Even at that time you would have got Suddha Dhanyasis, Suddha Saveris etc but given the wide range of movies he was doing, he had enough scope to come up with tunes based on new ragas.

I had earlier also written that as far as "SreeRamaRajyam' was concerned, Raja had understood the need of the market and delivered perfectly. Inspite of that I believe 'Sree Rama Lera' is a terrific composition, not letting us know which ragam it is. Even 'Jagadanandhakaaraka' though based on Suddha Dhanyasi, doesn't have any flavour of his earlier works. Nor does 'Seetha Seemanthamu'.

My personal opinion is, Raja is doing a lot of new things. And as a composer he knows which is new, from his point of view. So let us enjoy the newness that he gets in rather than worry if he has used a new raga or not. The way the same English language, in the hands of a master writer takes a new color, the same old ragas in the hands of Raja glow afresh. Like 'Amrithamaayi' based on Kalyani or 'Chandrabimbathin' based on Sriranjani.

Gregorysab

6th January 2012, 06:56 PM

Suresh,

I didn't know about his jazz trippage. I just had a conjecture that he is offlate trying lot of jazz kind of work but i didn't know that it was official :-) Interesting!

True, that when one is excited about something (like jazz here), obviously, the focus will be less on other genres. I dont mind his jazz stuff - which is why I was enjoying Mathiya Chennai, when half of his fans didnt get that excited about it. Or infact, take the opening guitar portions of Amurthamaayi - Thats so unlike Raaja. Evidently, he was trying something different. And I for one, am thoroughly enjoying the magic in different genre! but as they say - the nostalgia beckons at times! when I see that Raaja has not really ventured much into raagas like Bahudari and Poornachandrika (very stray attempts so far), I feel that he must now, for a change, give up (atleast temporarily) Mohanams Keeravanis and Suddha Dhanyasis - where he really charted their DNA in the realms of film music... and try the same with Bahudari/poornachandrika/Sri etc (there are some raagas, in which he composed just 1 or 2 songs but nothing major) in film songs or atleast in his non-film ventures. Ex: I was thrilled at his Karaharapriya attempt in Ramana Saranam Saranam.

Like I again say - if he doesnt, who will?

rprasad

6th January 2012, 10:01 PM

V_S

6th January 2012, 10:08 PM

Great Discussion, very interesting to read all your posts. :clap: I know I am not qualified to talk here, since my favorite SRR has come into discussion, could not avoid pouring in my thoughts.

In recent IR soundtracks, the way SRR shook me can never be described. This is the only soundtrack I listened continuously for more than 4 months daily since its release and even now. As vel mentioned, Maestro used Saraswati raagam in SRR. We can appreciate his ingenuity that Maestro has composed in this rare raagam, but unless the song captures us, there is no point is using any new raagam IMHO. But I think, some of you are very keen first to observe what raagam he has composed and once you find it is in same raagam, I think that takes your interest out, even if the song has many other things to offer.

One big thing in SRR that everyone needs to remember is, all the songs were composed for pre-written lyrics. There itself was a huge limitation. With this limitation, he has composed in a diversified manner and every song takes us to different mood and brings various perspectives. Just imagine those three story telling songs and their variations he has given and frequent scale changes. And that glorious cover drive in 'Seetha Seemantham'. How he changes the mood from happy to sad by offering different charanams and orchestration.

May be for a novice like me, it does not matter what raagam it was composed, as long as it wins my heart. I agree it would be good if Maestro composes in some rare or not-done-so-far raagams, but it does not take away the beauty from his compositions. Also I think it is by instinct and Maestro does not pre-determine which raaga he has to compose. To be honest, it is good to know from a statistical point of view what all raagas Maestro has composed, just like everyone is waiting for Sachin's 100th century, but to me how those runs wins a match for India is most important to me, just like any song winning our hearts.

krish244

6th January 2012, 11:10 PM

There is a Charulatha Mani article every week (if I am not wrong...) in THE HINDU about carnatic raagas. It also talks about how it is been used in film music. Of course she talks about how IR uses it as well:

Today's article (on Vasantha raaga):

http://www.thehindu.com/arts/music/article2780440.ece

I have been seeing / reading her articles for a couple of weeks now, but somehow keep forgetting to post the links here. I did not notice if someone else has been posting the links.

thanks,

Krishnan

6th January 2012, 11:48 PM

But I think, some of you are very keen first to observe what raagam he has composed and once you find it is in same raagam, I think that takes your interest out
Not at all. It's just that he has done so much with some ragas (names don't matter), if he uses them again it's very difficult not to sound like a rehash. It did happen to me with Sri rama lera. gives a deja vu feeling. Well if you can erase your memory of his previous songs and songs like 'kanden kanden', it's of course a beauty. That's my point.

app_engine

7th January 2012, 12:25 AM

There is a Charulatha Mani article every week (if I am not wrong...) in THE HINDU about carnatic raagas. It also talks about how it is been used in film music. Of course she talks about how IR uses it as well:

Today's article (on Vasantha raaga):

http://www.thehindu.com/arts/music/article2780440.ece

The Hindustani raag Girija closely resembles Vasantha. Our young readers would relate to Vasantha raga through the varnam "Ninnu Kori". Such pieces are evergreen and well-loved.

While the writer talks about a classical piece, one cannot control the curiosity question : what rAgA is the agni* song based?

Is it vasantha or some other or non-rAgA?

skr

7th January 2012, 01:40 AM

Like rprasad rightfully said a lot depends on the film situations and what the director wants.
He cannot give ragas of his choice. For that he needs to do his own albums ( which i wish he does a lot more).
I feel the scope should be created for him to venture into unknown ragas and stuff.
Tell me is it possible to expect a musical oriented subject like Sindhu Bhairavi in this day and time?
Thats all the more reason im excited about Padithurai. Not only is there a song in Saaranga , there is also one in Maand.
Whenever there's been a scope for him to dominate through his music , he has ruled reign and seldom has he fallen below expectations.

Talking about Raagas , Raaja did produce songs in quite a number of different ragas in the last yr
Who would have though he would come up with a Sallapam in Kalaya Nijama ?
And also a reverbrating hard hitting Revathi for the song Kaattu Vazhi from Thandavakone ?
Kalyani is his forte and yet again he came up with a stunning Amrithamayi
There was also a brilliant Brindavana Saranga for the song Mallar Villile from Thandavakone and an amazing Pantuvarali in Sri Rama Lera.
And Vel has already mentioned about bit songs in SRR being in Ragams such as Senchuruti and Saraswati.

I agree with you Aakarsh that there is no harm in expecting the genius to come up with all sorts of rare stuff , but sadly the problem lies in the filmmakers not being able to catch up with him and provide ample scope for him to wand his magic.
I have high hopes on Padithurai considering the director Mr Suka is musically very knowledgeable and would have created the ideal platform for Maestro to show his versatility and class.
The only problem being the film is not releasing and has been lying in the cans for more than a year.
Wish Arya does something to release the movie. Fingers crossed.

skr

7th January 2012, 01:42 AM

Speaking about Charulatha Mani , im in Kolaveri with her for coming up with this song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpHb65EcBPM
EKSI

V_S

7th January 2012, 01:43 AM

RR,
I understand with your difficulties. As you said, I erase those from my memory when I am listening to any new IR song. Mainly I look for how different it is from treatment perspective. But for some, it seems the raaga perspective automatically gets into them without their knowledge based on their vast listening experience, which I could not blame. I just hinted, if you leave out that, there is lot we can discover. It may not work for everyone.

App,
I too surprised how she mentioned Ninnu kori varnam as Vasantha instead of Mohanam. May be experts can clarify.

skr

7th January 2012, 01:49 AM

Its definitely Mohanam , adhulla doubt e illa.
Cant come to an understanding as to what she is tying to convey.

app_engine

7th January 2012, 03:12 AM

V_S & skr,

The portion I quoted does not talk about the movie song (the agni* one) but looks like some lesson ("varNam") that classical music learners need to go thru.

That "varNam" is in vasantha rAgam with the name nikkukkOri. Apparently, Vali / MR / IR combo thought of using that as the first line of a film song.

My curiosity was around whether they also used the same rAgA as used by the classical music people. Looks like rAsA did the song with mOhanam (vENumnE senjArA illaiyA theriyAdhu :-) )

V_S

7th January 2012, 04:52 AM

App,
Till today I was only thinking that 'Ninnu KOri' varnam belongs to Mohana raagam. From the article, since they have specified Ninnu KOri varnam in Vasantha raagam, I was confused.
Did some googling and found that there are two Ninnu KOri Varnams one in Mohanam and another one in Vasantha raagam. I don't know why they kept the same name, only to make us confuse :)

The Mohanam varnam was composed by R. S Iyengar, while the Vasanatha varnam was composed by Tacchur Singarachari.

So Mani/IR/Vaali used the 'Ninnu Kori varnam' line from Mohana varnam and also composed the song in Mohanam. Now, the article confusion is also cleared.

If I am wrong, experts please correct me.

Gregorysab

7th January 2012, 06:40 AM

Aakarsh and others who are talking about needing IR to explore less used ragas in his songs do not seem to understand the process of making film songs. No music composer including IR approaches a film song composition by predetermining which ragas they want to use. It just does not work that way. Ir composes to the situation and if the tune falls into a raaga then so be it. The situation demands a certain type of song either a melody or fast paced or folk etc. IR does not predetermine any raagas he is going to use. If his popular songs fall into certain raagas only then its obvious a song based on that raaga works the best in terms of catching peoples attention. Now we also have to consider the directors too, since they are the ones who approve a tune finally and need to be happy and convinced that the tune will work. Infact maybe IR did compose some songs which probably fell into the lesser known raagas and it was rejected by the director? could have happened. Film situations typically limit the composer since he has to satisfy peoples tastes and also try to be creative. IR is the best in that regard in doing a delicate balancing act for so many years. Now if he is doing a non film album , then yes he is free to explore raagas and base his composition on that. But in film world it just does not work that way even for a great composer like IR.

rprasad,

Totally known and understood! I agree & understand your point about how film music is made. All I am saying is that these constraints you are talking about - did not matter to Raaja earlier. For instance: Look at the chessy picturisation of "Meetadha oru veenai" and tell me - did that director had any musical knowledge, about the raagam or whatever... to approve that song? I think No. If he had, he wouldnt have picturised it that way. The song begins when the hero and heroine are wet in Rain and her saree flies across his face. Tell me, if the director was competent enough to tell the imagery to the director, would IR have choosen Reethigowla for that instance. I dont think so. Raaja might have choosen some other raaga. But there, he choose reethigowla. why? because the director probably narrated the situation in a different way (or he probably changed his picturisation idea later). whichever way you see, the picturisation aesthetics do not give me a feeling that the director was knowledgeable enough to demand or handle that raaga first. So, i have to assume that Raaja gave that composition - just like that - on the spur of the moment, without any influence of director's taste. Now it begs the question - how could he give such a gem? and further, again... if he could do so, back then... why is he not, now? (he is giving gems today.. what i mean is - why he is not going for underexplored raagas now, frequently?.. he still does.. but only few times)

And, forget director's knowledge(about raagas), even if we talk about situations... Did raaja really need a kedharam raaga, for the situation such as Sundari Neeyum in MMKR? he could have used another Kalyani (celebrative - since the situation ends with wedding of Kamal & Urvasi). But he went for a lesser tapped Kedharam. Or did the situation to show a "happy couple" in Kalaignan really need a unique Nalinikanthi? But he did venture into it.

I may be quoting one-off cases perhaps... but i hope you get the drift. Again, I am not saying that he cannot. On the contrary, (only) he can. He elevated most ridiculous films, with equally cliched situations, with some of the strongest compositions - irrespective of who the director was. Even recently, a Kannil Paarvai or Kooda Varuviya came to him naturally, because thats him. it was not because the director wanted a Rasikapriya or Mohanakalyani etc. My point is: such lesser tapped raagas are not coming naturally to him frequently these days. Even in private albums, i see them less (karaharapriya in Ramana Saranam saranam was brilliant - and i listen to it very frequently, why? because it keeps my memory of the raaga fresh... now you see what I am talking about). I dont know the reason. But it would be great to see him explore such raagas like Natakurinji, Bahudari etc - raagas for which we cannot think of IR songs from the top of our mind.

(my assumptions for Meetadha oru veenai song above - are all from the picturisation... I dont know if the director was really knowledgeable enough or not).

V_S,

Sri Rama Rajyam had Raaja with many limitations. So I dont mean to apply my argument to SRR also. I am satisfied with that album.

vel

7th January 2012, 08:58 AM

Vel/ Kamal/ RR / thumburu
My personal opinion is, Raja is doing a lot of new things. And as a composer he knows which is new, from his point of view. So let us enjoy the newness that he gets in rather than worry if he has used a new raga or not. .

Great point Suresh, and also about the genre (jazz) thing. As you also rightly pointed out, there was a time he did 30 films a year and hence he himself would need to pump up his adrenaline by trying out whacky experimentations (e.g. maaman voodu in bilahari)...Even now though he is ageing with lot of grace and charm he is yet still learning new things (jazz)...Like some DFer (Plum?) said once,"please let the man be what he wants to be....let him try what he wants to"

On the whole, a very nIce discussion from kamal, RR, SKR, V_S...

Suresh, regarding punnagavarali, there are two earlier ones by Raaja. Aadidum Peigala is a funny comedy song in Aduthaathu Albert and there is a snake number in the movie illam -- the song goes Aadum Paambirukkudhu....

7th January 2012, 11:21 AM

App,
So Mani/IR/Vaali used the 'Ninnu Kori varnam' line from Mohana varnam and also composed the song in Mohanam. Now, the article confusion is also cleared.

If I am wrong, experts please correct me.
Yes you surmised riight. 'ninnukkori varam' first line is exactly same as (swara wise) the famous carnatic varnam, and it is in mohanam. The rest of song is of course IR's creative exploration. Charulatha M could've clarified it to avoid confusion.

She has made some good observations about vasantha usage in TFM (the prayoga's), but the article has its share of mistakes as well. Knowledge-able folks here know that 'vandhanam' is not vasantha. With due respects to Charulath M, I'm surprised she missed the dhaivatham clearly indicates it's pantuvarali family. It only goes on to prove my oft-repeated conjecture that no stalwart can escape from mistaking in film song raga finding - which is a very delicate exercise.

7th January 2012, 11:39 AM

aakarsh, Well said! Your response rprasad is almost what I had in mind. Personally I am unable to buy the arguments that 'situations demanded it', 'directors inapt', or even 'music genre can't support complex ragas'. We all know IR is beyond all these and can tune any song in any raga/scale or genre and for any mood. He has proved it several times. So whats stopping him..

Here I like to add that no IR bashing intended here :smile2: Only raising a point to ponder, over and above our enjoyment of musical richness in his current products.

Sureshs65

7th January 2012, 12:15 PM

The answer is simple. There is indeed a varnam, which starts as 'ninnu kori' in Vasantha ragam as well. The same couple of words, 'ninnu kori' start both the Mohanam and Vasantha varnam. Hope that clarifies.

Gregorysab

7th January 2012, 12:47 PM

I revisited Mankanden Mankanden this morning. delight! Beautiful raaga and the way he treats it.. beautiful. now if IR does a symphony in this raaga, it will be so magical.

Ok, before other members pounce on me for being way too demanding, in my wishful thinking...:-D let me end this digression so that we will get to talk about dhoni soon! Have a nice weekend folks!

7th January 2012, 01:06 PM

aakarsh.. I think you are just echo-ing the inner desires of all HCIR fans, whether or not we are satisfied with his current music.

I'll extract out the raga digressions as a separate thread for further discussions.

Sureshs65

7th January 2012, 02:46 PM

We all know IR is beyond all these and can tune any song in any raga/scale or genre and for any mood. He has proved it several times. So whats stopping him..

.

Maybe the fact that he already proved it :D So that may not be a great challenge to him. Take a Sahana or Natakurunji and tune a film song. He probably knows he can do it easily. When he can do a song based on Gowlai or Nalinakanthi, it would not be too much for him to tune in some other ragam. I feel that though we may love to have him give us newer ragas, it may not really hold a challenge for him. Maybe the new genre like Jazz is holding that challenge. How can I keep giving variety and give different emotions withing the grammar of jazz. So while we saw Raja go full hog with Carnatic ragas earlier: Vasantha, Lalitha, Nalinakanthi, Gowla and what not, he probably is in a phase now wherein he is exploring something else. My argument has always been that most fans are left behind, longing for more of what he gave while he has moved forward to other territories. So now we get lot of variety in the Jazz framework, 'poo poothadhu', 'thenralum maarudhu', 'unnai patri sonnal', 'endukkamma prema','anadala lokam','mudi mudi','chengkadhir' and lot more.

i can understand what the HCIRF wants but I am also trying to understand the creator's perspective. I do not go with Kamal's thinking that new ragas are 'not coming' to him. As I said, he is exploring newer paths and it is fascinating for me to find out what he is trying to do. It is just our own limitation that we set on newer ragas because our imagination is limited. From all evidence, Raja's imagination is unbounded. So I personally try and figure out what he is doing nowadays. Though i may not have a parallel to it from his earlier work, it still connects.

V_S

7th January 2012, 08:41 PM

Suresh ji at his best! :clap: I fully concur with your views.

V_S

7th January 2012, 10:51 PM

Thanks a lot RR for taking pains to create this new thread. You are one truly dedicated hubber and as Plum said, an unsung hero. Really appreciate your efforts. :clap:

7th January 2012, 11:15 PM

7th January 2012, 11:21 PM

V_S, tks but no formalities pls. IR is the hero here.. we are all his thondargal equal :notworthy:

Gregorysab

8th January 2012, 12:28 PM

Maybe the fact that he already proved it :D So that may not be a great challenge to him. Take a Sahana or Natakurunji and tune a film song. He probably knows he can do it easily. When he can do a song based on Gowlai or Nalinakanthi, it would not be too much for him to tune in some other ragam. I feel that though we may love to have him give us newer ragas, it may not really hold a challenge for him. Maybe the new genre like Jazz is holding that challenge. How can I keep giving variety and give different emotions withing the grammar of jazz. So while we saw Raja go full hog with Carnatic ragas earlier: Vasantha, Lalitha, Nalinakanthi, Gowla and what not, he probably is in a phase now wherein he is exploring something else. My argument has always been that most fans are left behind, longing for more of what he gave while he has moved forward to other territories. So now we get lot of variety in the Jazz framework, 'poo poothadhu', 'thenralum maarudhu', 'unnai patri sonnal', 'endukkamma prema','anadala lokam','mudi mudi','chengkadhir' and lot more.

i can understand what the HCIRF wants but I am also trying to understand the creator's perspective. I do not go with Kamal's thinking that new ragas are 'not coming' to him. As I said, he is exploring newer paths and it is fascinating for me to find out what he is trying to do. It is just our own limitation that we set on newer ragas because our imagination is limited. From all evidence, Raja's imagination is unbounded. So I personally try and figure out what he is doing nowadays. Though i may not have a parallel to it from his earlier work, it still connects.

i do understand your point suresh - that he has moved on other other territories. But i dont think Raaja would dismiss a sahana or natakuranji just like that - feeling that it is easy. If it were so, he would have dismissed a Maayamalavagowla long back - given that it is a cakewalk for him. or even a Mohana, which is even more cakewalk for him (and even for chinese ;-) ). Instead, there are these set of raagas he is still exploring. it is not that he has completely given up these scales and began exploring hard core jazz. he still doing a bit of both (or everything). and he was doing a bit of everything even in 80s. he did not sacrifice the thought of exploring a Nalinikanthi - for the sake of a pure Western Classical Symphonies (especially when a Kalaignan came around the same time when he was commissioned to do a Symphony with London Symphony Orchestra). What I am saying is - I really appreciate & am in awe of the fact that he is still learning and exploring a genre like Jazz. But this aspect of "learning and exploring" was there back then as well - with say, western classical. yet, he did go full throttle in his choice of raagas.

And though a lot of fans do want him to repeat his 80s, I am sure most of us here appreciate his recent work and are not really stuck. It is not the same 80s music that we want. But it is the philosophy that he applied to his creations back then, that we want, but in newer/contemporary forms. And whenever raaja delivers it, they are unanimous winner - like say "Kunnathe" from Pazhassi Raja or "Ilangaatru veesaye" from Pithamagan. The soul is same. the robes are new.

And I really dont think that Raaja would summarily dismiss off a Bahudari as a "I can do it easily" or "I have nothing to explore there and hence I will not" kind of thought. If thats the case, then there wouldnt have been even a Saaranga in Padithurai. Also, we know that true/sincere artists do not really undermine (the beauty of) any raaga or even any genre as such (which is why he is fascinated with jazz now). And I believe and I am sure we all here believe - Raaja is a true artist.

PS1: That it is easy for him to explore such raagas - is a fact that WE know. but, as an artist, I am sure he wouldnt be viewing things in such flippant light! Just a thought!

PS2: Not that I am unhappy about his jazz explorations! but, like I said - it is exciting to even imagine Raaja doing a Bahudari fusion or a late-night romantic number in Poornachandrika! because, i again highlight, I dont see anyone else capable of pulling that off!

Gregorysab

8th January 2012, 12:39 PM

Also, I dont think the title of this thread is 'completely' justified! I feel he is using unconventional raagas, but only few times. Can we change the title of this thread to "Raaja Raagas in Post-2000 era"?

Sureshs65

8th January 2012, 04:06 PM

Kamal,

There was a sepcific reason why I was saying Sahana and Nattakurunji. These are restrictive in the sense they are vakra ragas and have special prayogas. So whether you like it or not you need to come to those prayogas in order to highlight the raga. If not you will skip into the territory of other ragas. Whereas ragas like Kalyani, MMG and the pentatonic scale ragas (Mohanam, Sudhadhanyasi, Sudhasaveri, Hindolam etc) don't have this restrictions. For example, you will find lot more songs in Madhyamavathi than in Sree Ragam. They both share the same arohana but the Sreeraga avarohana is vakara and that becomes a restriction. You need to keep using that phrase 'snpdn' or 'rigarisa' else the song will sound like Madhyamavathi. These are some technical points why some scale get explored more than others. Another reason why MMG or Kalyani or Keeravani or the pentatonics get explored more is that they are the scales which are often used in Western music.

The raga situation is like the n+1 story they used to tell about NRIs wanting to come back home. Currently the raga base used till now by Raja is 'n'. Now you want say two more ragas. Once Raja does that, the n+2 will become the new n and we will demand he now tune in two more new ragas and so on. As I said, we think the challenge lies in tuning in new ragas, because we see it as a challenge. Maybe Raja sees a challenge in using the same Suddha Dhanyasi scale and coming up with something which you have never heard before, like 'Jagadananda Kaaraka'. Everyone I spoke to felt this was a very fresh song and definitely did not resemble any of the Suddha Dhanyasi he did earlier. Similarly, 'Armuthamayi' did not sound like Kalyani we have heard from him earlier. So my question, why is tuning in a new raga a challenge and not when tuning in the same 'heard a zillion times Kalyani' and yet making it sound absolutely dew fresh? I want to give an example of another famous contemporary composers use of Ananda Bhairavi in slow songs wherein the Ananda Bhairavi sounds the same in all the songs but I refrain because it can lead us somewhere else. So my contention is, we are judging Raja by what challenges we want him to take up rather than understand what challenge he has taken up. Why is 'chandrabimbathin' not a challenge? It is not easy to make out it is Sreeranjani and it gives a totally different flavour to that raga.

Coming to 'Sreeramarajyam', I see the challenge as how to infuse freshness to the 'same old ragas' or 'cliched ragas'. Is this a challenge at all? You bet it is. I had given an example earlier. Added to it you can also hear any of the tunes belted out my MM Keervani to know what a cliche is and how to deal in the same old cliched way with the same old ragas. "Sreeramarajyam' is a mint fresh album. My wife, who doesn't listen to any Raja post 2000 albums (atleast she doesn't like most of them) called up her brother and cousins and adviced them to buy the CD. It was the same with lot of other friends, not all of them fans of Raja's recent work. So the connect happened with the people as far as this album was concerned. I would counter RR's argument by saying that we are more elitist asking for newer ragas when common man is very pleased with the album :) Raja has taken up Suddha Dhanyasi, Hindolam, Sindhubhairavi and has given them a fairly new color and has kept all of them very fresh. That is indeed a very tough thing to do as we all think these ragas have been used so many times not only by Raja but by so many other music directors.

Coming to a more pertinent point which Vel had mentioned earlier. Raja is indeed working on newer ragas and newer techniques of dealing with ragas but we probably are not understanding it. We want a 'Andhi Mazhai' or 'Pani Vizhum' or 'Vedam Nee', which will slap us on our face and say, "Look, I am so beautiful" Raja instead is experimenting in his own way on various ragas but not holding them up and showing off. Case in point: 'Baba Pugazh Malai'. Here is the album: http://www.raaga.com/channels/tamil/moviedetail.asp?mid=td01741

While it is nice to now talk about usage of new ragas and all, how many wrote about this album? There are so many new ragas (or not often used ragas) in this album, along with some regularly used ragas. There are sruthi bedam happening and all but except for a handful of people no one wrote about this album. Please do listen to this album again and check out the not oft used ragas used here. While I do love people coming out and asking why Raja is using the same old ragas, it will be nice if people come out with more vigor when he does use newer ragas :D

In short (after a very long writeup) :) what I am saying is this. Challenges come in many shapes and sizes. We are thinking of only one challenge (raga challenge) which we want Raja to take. But Raja seems to be taking up other challenges. As a listener we cannot force a composer to take up our challenge :) Instead we must try and understand what the composer is trying to do.

Sureshs65

8th January 2012, 04:22 PM

RR,

If there is one thing I have never agreed with anyone: Raja haters(direct haters and those in the garb of Raja lovers), HCIRF, casual listeners etc, that Raja has become complacent. I still state this very strong after listening to many of his late 90s and 2000s work: He has never been complacent!! Never, ever !! And I can show that throughout all the years. His drive for innovation has never come down, his search of newer things, his sense of perfection. They are always present. Yes, I would agree that many would not like his usage of synthesizers. There are many a times he comes with some very outdated synthesizer effects, his choice of singers has been less than optimal and in many cases the sound recording could have been much better. But, as far as music goes, there has never been any complacency. ;Baba Pugazh Malai' gets as much attention as 'Gayam 2' which gets as much attention as 'Thandavakone' etc etc. I for one, have not observed him letting me down musically.

Yes, his connect with the Tamil film music audience is not happening the way it used to. Youngsters don't find him hip enough (though there are quite a few youngsters who are gravitating towards him. Ask skr:) ). To many it feels like he is not in touch with the current reality and fads. But, if you are not worried about fads, his music has been excellent all along. If people are not listening to it, they are definitely missing out on something.

thumburu

8th January 2012, 06:46 PM

Suresh,

That's a good hypothesis :smile2: I have no issues with him exploring jazz or other stuff. That's the creator's space for innovation & experimentation. May befit his other movies (though I think 'common man' watching a 'commercial movie' feels left out by his current sort of elitist approach). But for movies like SRR..? That's where we started this discussion. As I already said, more than cliched ragas.. if I can say, a HCIR fan can feel much of cliched music in this album. (well.. not entirely but several songs..) Though I would think he can do much more with just the ragas he has already chosen and give completely fresh tunes, the choice of ragas could just be the reason for the deja vu feeling. I'm not implying that complex ragas is the only solution, the point is we want him not get complacent but go one more level up in innovation.. Just my thoughts, or rather aadhangam :)

Thank you RR for conveyong without ambiguity what I had in mind .

Suresh, Raja is fortunate to have a fabulous defence lawyer like u :)
You have bailed out Raja by citing his new found interest towards jaaz genre and also managed to deflect chief prosecutor aakarsh’s attention to some extent

vel quote :

the retort will be that those sabha kutcheri gamakkams are absent or the song is light etc.....if those gamakkams are added then it is not a folk number. The grammar originally defined for devotion will not be suitable for the different filmy situations/light music. the retort will be that those sabha kutcheri gamakkams are absent or the song is light etc.....

You seem to be thinking hard for others too and that too incorrectly in your desperation to defend IR.

vel quote :
if those gamakkams are added then it is not a folk number. The grammar originally defined for devotion will not be suitable for the different filmy situations/light music.

– Try telling your logic to IR . He defied this long back loud and clear. Iam just listening to a crackle of Karaharapriya in the folk-uncompromised “thaana vandha sandhaname”

thumburu

8th January 2012, 10:24 PM

Sureshs65

8th January 2012, 11:40 PM

thumburu,

I am OK if you found 'Jagadhanandakaraka' good and not great. That's fine but I do think 'Ramayanamu' is a terrific song in the sense that he could conjure up multiple moods with the same Sindhubhairavi. To me and to some other friends, this song was one of the highlights. Ofcourse, 'SreeramaLera' was agreed by most people who spoke to me as being extremely fresh and it captured their imagination the same way that 'andhi mazhai' and 'pani vizhum malarvanam' captured their imagination in an earlier era. My wife was very upset when that song was cut into half in the movie. 'sanku chakrala' and the other folk song were more catering to Bapu I would say. As chief persecutor :) kamal had mentioned earlier those two songs were a throwback to the Bapu-KVM era and those who are familiar with Bapu's earlier association with KVM felt the same.

Raja, of course, doesn't need me as a defense lawyer, for I am not qualified for that :) Anyway here is a quote from the man I am currently reading, the Noble winning Polish poet, Czeslaw Milosz. He says,"..Cezanne kept on repositioning his easel and painting the same pine tree, attempting to devour it with his eyes and mind, penetrating its lines and colors, whose multiplicity stuck him as inexhaustible". I can't put it better. (Afterall Milosz is Noble Prize winner). Raja is like Cezanne, finding inexhaustible patterns in Mayamalawagowla, Kalyani, Mohan, Keeravani etc. Like the pine tree, apple, the rooftops which inspired Cezanne, Raja seems to be inspired by these ragas.

jaiganes

9th January 2012, 06:42 AM

unga ellorukku indha sangeedha tharkuri enna sollikarennu 6:10 to 6:30 en dhosthu thengai seenivasan moolama therivichukaren.
<english> see the video from 6:10 to 6:30 to know what this musical illiterate feels about this debate.. </english>

Sureshs65

9th January 2012, 10:02 AM

Jai,

No linkesh there.

V_S

9th January 2012, 10:52 AM

Idhi Pattabhi ennaku pidikkalai'nu sollunga, I respect all your opinion. But terming it as rotten apple that too from a Raja fan, is truly shocking. Terming it as embarrassment is the real embarrassment for this wonderful composition. Tell me one such authentic folk composition.

Idhi Pattabhi - Observe the tabla rhythm structure when she finishes the anu-pallavi. The prelude starts with rolling tabla and shenoi (?) literally takes us to the village where dhobis enjoy singing while they wash the clothes (if I am not wrong). Minimalistic instruments with all concentration on singer and the tune. The turn flows freely until it meets the last line where we hear some sort of 'gudugudupai' sound. The voice of Swetha is 100% perfect to the setting. I suspect the voice of Swetha is taking back a few, but that is the voice which is the plus for this song and the setting. Also want to understand what is missing in this composition, instead of straight dismissal.

Please watch these videos how the kids have already taken up these songs and rendered it almost flawlessly for their age. These songs (every one of them) have already become a rage among telugu audiences and these songs have begun to appear on all singing shows. Again we need to shed our intellect listening capabilities and listen with telugu eyes and ears and also close to the milieu on which it was composed, to appreciate this outstanding composition better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzAzdYjWALo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SFTAeXVNxY&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL92D1E3CF69D497F4Also (playlist)

I guess there is a concern on one or two songs only, but on that account, are we dismissing SRR totally?. But there are 15 of them, it would be better to describe what falls short in each one of them for us to understand better.
I reiterate, this soundtrack will never come even from Maestro again. And after some 10 or 20 years, I definitely believe you will terribly miss this soundtrack.

9th January 2012, 11:22 AM

Suresh, good points! Thanks for agreeing on the audience disconnect and not getting into a staunch IR defense (which I was afraid we might get into). I think we are having healthy discussion here. For me, it's about understanding what's still excellent in his (in my tastes, routine) music. Coming to your points,

* It's definitely not about fads. I would say they are just gimmicks. I'm just asking songs of IR-calibre. As you rightly put it .. slap-on-your-face-and-say-I'm-good type music! Well.. he is still doing it but at a very low rate. 'kannai padithen' is a recent one. Simple song but who will not love the melody. I didn't realise it's behag until about several listen's (but my appreciation went to another high after that, anyway that's besides the point). How many other tunes can we list of this melodic type?

* kiru often tells me (where are you, man?) that IR is doing 'classical crossover' genre. It's logical IR takes this approach, and it's interesting. However, the presentation is an important factor here. The creator is giving something he thinks is good, but he must evaluate the feedback from the audience. Efforts like thiruvarasakam in symphony offer him complete freedom but film music does not. The audience ranges from nadutheru narayanan's to subbudu's (not to mention the $$$ invested), and its critical to consider how they are taking up his approach. Should analyze it unequivocally and adjust to it. Otherwise, we obviously will tend to think he is complacent (and some may term it 'technical arrogancy'). This may sound like taking in too far for a staunch fan but it's definitely not. I mean, if he really wants to please the major fan base, he better do it. I want him to. I'm quite sure he is more than capable.

9th January 2012, 11:34 AM

aakarsh, I coined the title to reflect the topic we started with and to be a li'l provocative. It's not a statement but a question to debate on. Will modify if there's a major objection.

V_S: emotions apart, I believe SRR is no way near what IR can deliver in terms of musical richness and appeal. Just take his recent Ramana geetham album for comparison. I'm looking forward to him giving an album beyond both our expectations.

vel

9th January 2012, 11:34 AM

Suresh and V_S, Iam aware of how much SRR, as an album has resonated with u guys and I must Include plum who has written pages about the songs and movie as a whole. Good for all of u. The heart knows no reason and that is all that matters. What I find unpalatable is the " teknikal mulaam " like saraswathi/charamathi given to that too a rotten apple like “sanku shakraala” . So be it. I remember Mumbai Ramki terming it as plain embarrassment. May be I should have articulated better. More than the raga, it is the treatment, showing a novel facet of a raga , that counts.May be that was an excuse given to myself for finding “Jagadhanandha karaka” AND “Ramayanamu” just “good” and not “excellent”. My best pick from SRR,”Devulle menchulle” and my pick of 2011, “bhavani varugira” – I don’t care what ragas they are . Iam fascinated by these 2. Period.

Romba periya koduma sir idhu.....except V_S, others who followed this post (RR, Suresh, JG) never bothered to condemn a forum'er (and a fan?!) using such cheap lowly adjectives (""rotten apple"")? I would want the moderator/admin of this thread to remove this post.

Its a pity that people think anything is rotten if they are ill-equipped to understand it. No wonder Raaja could care his foot to such people who dont even bother to understand a novel thing even if it is explained to them.

Plum

9th January 2012, 11:41 AM

I have not been particularly attracted by this debate - but there is one thing I am utterly confident of : thumburu will never again be satisfied with a Raja album the way she was in 80s. Because she wants the Raja of 80s - specifically the tamil Raja of 80s. Good luck getting him back - wake me up when you do. The quotation of thaana vandha sandhaname is telling. You make the point that it is folksy yet satisfying the purist in you. Which precisely is what is being claimed for idhi pattabhi...except that it is telugu folk, not your comfy, accustomed tamil folk like thaanaa vandha. The terms of comparison you apply makes it impossible for you to be satisfied. If I had an objection to Idhi pattabhi, it would be that it doesn't have the inherent long-term appeal. It begins to wear off after a few listens. Which I could say for a good many folk numbers of yesteryear as welll, including thaana vandha. That goes with the territory. Folk is designed to be simple and easy on the ears - simple and easy tends to wear off quickly on the ears. That is from my perspective. From your perspective, you are not making an attempt to see SRR for what it is. This has been a problem for Raja - in his early days, he made music as he saw fit. Situations, competence of directors, storyline etc didn't matter and you had musical ideas flowing - essentially, pop music, elevated pop one might say, served through the medium of films. Sometime aroundmouna raagam, he seems to have become a slave to being driven by the story/screenplay/emotional needs of the movie. As we progress in his career, you can see that director's vision - even if the director is Valmiki director - matters the most. In that sense, he has become the Sivaji Ganesan of TFM. An artist too elevated for his environment but too respectful of it - that flies in the face of his image; but that reflects iin his work - the higher the artistic merit of the project, the higher the merit of his output. Exceptions could be there but I guess those would be the ones where the director failed to execute the vision as he narrated it to Raja. This being the case, without internalising the background of the movie, you cannot judge his score - especially for marquee projects like SRR. For those like suresh and myself, with a strong grounding on the background of Bapu, the folk songs sounded amazingly authentic - the raga details don't even matter to me - and served in a seductive Raja wrapper. You may ask "but I never had to make the effort in the 80s - he came over to me and seduced me". Fair enough - that's a choice you have to make. That pure Pop Raja, albeit elevated pop, who scored in multiple parameters irrespective of situations doesn't exist. You have to go to the mountain now. Mountain will not come to you. It was nice that the mountain came to you in the 80s but that's not the natural order of things - it is usually the other way around. Also, Idhi pattabi vs thaana vandha sandhaname may not be the right comparison. I listen to buddham saranam and Chinnari ponnari from Swathi muthyam and even they don't captivate anymore. That's the right comparison in many ways. Let's set the correct parameters of comparison first...

Gregorysab

9th January 2012, 11:58 AM

Suresh,

You have risen to the occasion :-) That was indeed a compelling argument about the Vakra raagas and their limitations. and I am definitely with you on this and I must compliment you for that remarkable insight. With that, I will definitely erase some of the raagas from my wishlist. So i should not be expecting him to belt out Sri raagam or Nalinikanthi anymore. But raaja does tease us with a saaranga (considered to be a vakra raagam) in Padithurai. So lets look forward to it.

Sri Rama Rajyam is an album in which I dont complain about Raaja's usage of those raagas and so I presume your points about this particular album were for RR.

I did like both Baba Pugazh Maalai and Ramana Saranam Saranam. If any, the Ayyappa swamy album didnt impress me much. (on an related note, I now recall that Raaja did one song in Desh raagam also, for one of the devotional albums. cant recall which one, but i liked it. I think Guru Ramana Geetham).

So, whether I am convinced? To a lot of extent, yes. But... my friend.. I still yearn to listen to him explore some other new raagas (excluding vakra raagams).. like may be lesser used Melakarthas or Hindustani oriented ones like behag, malhar etc. When I say new, I dont mean literally NEW but raagas like Shanmukhapriya, Sarasangi, etc - which he used earlier, but not offlate! I mean, tell me, if an album has 5 songs and if you read somewhere, even before listening, that there is a Keeravani and a Shanmukhapriya. Will one will you play first the moment you open the cd. I would play shanmukhapriya. I assume even you would play that one first.

I was already with you on your points about challenges and you didnt have to explain again :-)

And you are very well aware of my interest in Padithurai -because of Saranaga, Dhenuka and maand. Now dont they sound very different from the usual palette. Hence my curiousity. If anything, my whole argument was about wishing for more Padithurais :-)

Thumburu,

Please! I dont have even 1/nth (where n is a very large number) of knowledge that Raaja possesses, to be a qualified prosecutor. Would you please not associate me with "prosecutor" :-(. All the more, because I am seen as a defense lawyer of Raaja's music (his contemporary music, all the more), in the eyes of many people I interact with, in real world as well as on internet. So, please dont confuse my stance, lest people might call me a hypocrite! :-) I was trying to be an objectivistic observer (from my limited peanut sized knowledge) and I admit I am a greed-struck, always-craving music-buff! That alone can describe me the most (even better than words like HCIRF etc, about which i have few reservations).
I am just another fan, wanting more. :-) I hope I am not misunderstood!

Now, over to Baba Pugazh Maalai, upon Suresh's recco! been long time since i heard this album!

vel

9th January 2012, 12:13 PM

Folk is designed to be simple and easy on the ears - simple and easy tends to wear off quickly on the ears. That is from my perspective. From your perspective, you are not making an attempt to see SRR for what it is. For those like suresh and myself, with a strong grounding on the background of Bapu, the folk songs sounded amazingly authentic - the raga details don't even matter to me - and served in a seductive Raja wrapper. You may ask "but I never had to make the effort in the 80s - he came over to me and seduced me". Fair enough - that's a choice you have to make....

very well put Plum.

9th January 2012, 12:19 PM

Whoa! Fantastic stuff, folks! :clap:
It’s difficult coming across critical analysis of such kind in any other parts of this forum; speaks for the man, his music and the open-mindedness of his fans. Keep ‘em coming!
This debate doesn’t really necessitate taking sides, or so I think, and therein lies the beauty of it. We aren’t demeaning or defaming the man in any way, for who better than his disciples to analyze the trend changes in his music?

I’ve always brought this up in many discussions - he is also human like the rest of us, flesh and blood and bones. Age is bound to wear on the mind and any signs of mellowing down has got to be completely expected. Even after nearing the 70 mark with close to 40 years of active composing, I can only be happy that he is still able to bring out something fresh, to excite his fans/non-fans even now.
And in spite of being celebrated as a musical genius, he has no qualms in pursuing and learning something new to him. Like Kamal says in his interview, the fire might have gone off, but he keeps the cinder burning. Every now and then we see this agnikunju setting the forests ablaze!

While we may be seeing his choice of films and whining ‘nalladhor veenai seidhe’, he probably sees them all as opportunities to explore his newfound musical interests, sometime within constraints (devotional setting in SRR or folk in ASK) and at other times freewheeling (‘general’ films like Paa or Gayam). Why am I stating this here in this debate? Music (composing) is a creative process that involves exchange of ideas and perspectives to keep the mind inspired and to ‘keep the juices flowing’. Here is where the filmmaker, his clarity of thought, his ability to put across his views, his musical inclinations, if any, come into the picture, which is why a guy like Suka is able to get the man work on some lesser known ragams. And as far as the rest of the bunch is concerned, it’s what’s inspiring Raaja at that moment which becomes their soundtrack, which is what we eventually get on our plate. Like Suresh said, it’s probably jazz currently on his mind that might be pushing the carnatic base to the backburner. I’m quite confident that if there’s an able director, that magical combination of jazz and carnatic might happen. No, not that this wasn’t there in the 80s or any other phases of his career, that’d be me committing cardinal sin! But I’m guessing that the impact of ‘formal’ jazz training on his composing (versus knowledge from book/listening) combined with interesting carnatic scales would make a marked difference in the final output.

Moving on from ‘what can happen’ and ‘could have been’ to ‘what has happened’, I’m also of the opinion that SRR, while being a solid album, could’ve been better, either in the choice of ragams or in the compositions itself, if not for both. That said, I would, however, refrain from complaining on the folk songs in the album (and the degree of ragam prayogam in them). For me, these songs are as interesting as the pure classical numbers, after all, devotion and religion applies to all sections of the human society. Why should ‘shaka charalu’ be viewed as ‘plain embarrassment’ or tasteless? It’s a folk song and it’s good fun for someone like me who has little knowledge about AP’s nativity or Bapu’s record for such songs, and all this for people who are aware of it!

And finally, a well composed song set to a popular ragam is any day better than a half-baked usage of a rare scale. While VS could be applauded for choosing Nasikabhooshani, what eventually is the effect of the song on the listener? To me the song gave the feel of ‘hey! look, I’ve composed in a rare ragam! How cool is that?’ No, I’m not being biased here. He created a Rasikapriya beauty in ‘Ding dong koil mani’, the tuning, the instrumentation, everything worked beautifully for it. The Nasikabhoosani was just an average ‘effort’ in comparison. Allow me some fanboy talk - I’d take the, set to saadha dhanyasi, but lovely ‘Jagadananda taraka’ over it any time, any day!

Sureshs65

9th January 2012, 12:22 PM

Plum,

Excellent argument. You have put it much better than I could. I was hinting at that but as you rightly said, Raja has gone with, "Yes, I have lot of ideas, fine but are they appropriate in this situation. How do I serve this situation right?" Rajasaranam has been propagating this for a long time now. His argument has always been that there is never a Raja song which is bad if you take the situation into account. Of course, he can still do that if he wants but I don't think he will go that way. What I see if him going towards the newer genre but with a clear, "I need to ensure the song suits this situation". That's why I told a friend of mine to hold his horses about 'Dhoni'. Though it is being played on live instruments, the storyline is such that we cannot expect anything bombastic. The songs will merge beautifully with the situation and will be melodious. They will not blow you out of water. I am very clear 'Dhoni' is going to be something very pleasant but not something path breaking. Something along the lines of "Snehaveedu' or 'Nandalala'. As you said, he is sure that he is a servant of the media. These days some songs hit you immediately, like 'Sreeramarajyam' or 'chandrabimbathin' from 'Snehaveedu', whereas others take getting used to. And as you said, that is how Raja will remain.

Sureshs65

9th January 2012, 12:31 PM

Kamal,

Let me assure you. I too would jump at Raja using a new ragam for I know one thing. He s bound to give a new color to it and come up with something sensational. So along with RR, thumburu and you, I too wait but in the meantime I continue loving what he is dishing out :)

To answer another question you asked, with Raja you can never guess which will be the outstanding song of the movie based on the ragas. An excellent example could be 'Moga Mul'. It has two ragas which are rarely used in film music, 'Natakapriya' and 'Rama Priya'. While both of them were outstanding compositions, to me the best was'sollayo vaai thirandhu' which was Shanmukhapriya, a raga which he had used many times earlier. Yet, his genius in giving a 'viraha' touch to such a joyous raga stunned me.

I am also desperately waiting for the audio of 'Padithurai'. If someone is doing a dharna in front of Arya's house, I don't mind joining!!!

Gregorysab

9th January 2012, 12:32 PM

Regarding the folk song "Idhi Pattabhi" in SRR: I have written earlier, it completely fits the Bapu mould (his representation of folk) and if anything, I commend Raaja for perfectly putting out Bapu's vision in right form there. It is different matter that I might not listen to that song much, but that is me. But there is no Raaja's negligence there. Infact, in a certain way, a Sri Rama Lera is more of a "safe song" for Raaja - since it is something Raaja has done a lot before and is adept with the style/approach he has to take. But The folk song, is a challenge, because it is a director's song in my opinion. Catering to that, without completely giving up one's own stamp - is a tightrope walk. And Raaja walked it well! So i wouldnt call it a bad song. It is a right song. just that it doesnt suit to 'my' liking, particularly when I get to drool over Sri Rama Lera and Ramayanamu and others.

Gregorysab

9th January 2012, 12:36 PM

Suresh,

I agree about Mogamull. Sollayo was a song that caught me as well.

And yes, count me in, for the dharna. In front of Arya's house or even in front of Raaja's house! Output is what I want! :-)

Sureshs65

9th January 2012, 12:39 PM

KV,

Agree with you to a large extent except that 'age' thing. I would say the percentage of his song which are new, which are nice, which don't sound new and whatever categorization you do would be the same as in 80s. (I mean at how people looked at them in 80s. Now ofcourse we are 'discovering' lot of songs now.) What has happened is that his music has changed, the audience taste has changed and the connect is not happening as it used to till the early 90s. Infact I would go ahead and argue that his fire has burnt bright as his age advanced. For progressively outstanding grand albums kept coming on as he was aging. First it was 'Dhalapathi', then 'Kala Pani', then 'Guru', then 'Virumandi', 'Mumbai Express', 'Tiruvasagam' till 'Pazhassiraja' in 2009. I am sure if the budget is grand and the canvas is large he will come with something equal to 'Pazhassiraja'.

Even 'PazhassiRaja' is a case in point. We were all expecting another 'Guru'. But he gave something of equal grandeur but which was totally different. So I am one of those who claims that inspite of advancing age, Raja's flame burns bright. Time has not touched him musical imagination.

9th January 2012, 12:45 PM

On Chandrabimbam, skr and I have been discussing about this song's ragam. He tells me that there was a discussion on twitter when it was released but I'm not aware of it. I also listened to a clipping of Vicky explaning this song where he says it is Sriranjani set to Madhyama shruthi. Here's a post I'd sent to skr (in our pm discussion). I thought it'd be a good idea posting it here as we're discussing ragam selection.
sa ni sa Ma Ga
Pa Ma Ga sa
sa ni sa ni da pa
This is the swara that I’m able to map the song to and the rest of the song follows similarly. Here are some observations:
1) There is no usage of Ri anywhere in the tune of the song (to me, at least)
That pretty much rules out Sriranjini. Any standard Sriranjani song has ample Ri usage, because of which I think this song somehow never gave me the feel of Srirajani. It seems tough to discount Ri from Sriranjani and get the same sound.

2) I think the placement of Sa is not really the thing that creates the confusion. Its rather the decision to use a Madhyama shruthi that muddles things. Firstly, why should the scale be shifted from Sa to Ma? Is there any specific reason to omit the original Sa and shift to Ma to make it the starting point of the scale. Why is it inappropriate to assume the original sa as sa and leave the ma as ma!?

3) Theoretically, as per a music teacher, this is done only for Eka sthayi ragams where the whole composition revolves within one sthayi (only sa to Ni, without hitting the upper Sa). He quotes Senjurutti as an example. This song in the charanams goes to the higher octave (konjum maalya ivide line). Would it then be theoretically right to assume a madhyama shruthi for this song?

4) The song seems to operate within S G3 M1 P D2 N2 S and S N2 D2 P M1 G3 S almost fully. With Sriranjani out of the equation for me, the other ragam in contention came up – Bagheshri. This ragam, though shares the same Arohanam, has a vakra avarohanam S N2 D2 M1 P D2 G2 M1 R2 S which also has Ri in it. All the descending phrases/lines in Chandrabimbam seem to have a linear descent with no vakram really. So, it sounds logical to me to assume the avarohanam as S N2 D2 P M1 G3 S. And when I looked up the chart, this combination reads ‘Pravritti’ (god promise, I’m hearing this name the first time!). Now, if Raaja really had this obscure scale in mind or just took up the more popupar Janaka ragam Chakravakam and simply ended up leaving out the Ri in his tuning process, I don’t know how many of us can have the exact answer to that!

5) The song that played in my mind as I heard Chandrabimbam is Adiye Kiliye (Kudaikkul mazhai; only the pallavi). I also had a bit of Mazhai Varudhu mazhai varudhu ringing afar. Adiye kiliye also seems to have had this Sriranjini versus Bhageshree debate (with an Abhogi in the equation as well!). The pallavi actually does not use Ri and Ma at all, which makes it S G3 P D2 N2 S and S N2 D2 P G3 S which the chart says in Valaji. (which when done a bedham yields Abhogi it seems!). This changes charanam onwards though.

9th January 2012, 01:17 PM

Friends,

This is the moderator in me speaking. It's great to see such scholarly (ahem) discussion happening. But pls keep the decorum and not get into personal attacks. For all we know, IR may be reading this. Tks!

9th January 2012, 01:38 PM

RR, the thread's title is quite awkward is what me also thinks. Something as simple as 'Choice of Ragams by new age Raaja - a discussion' would suit better, no?

Plum

9th January 2012, 01:52 PM

KV, I wanted to say about Vidyasagar's nasikabhooshani - I knew it only from the lyrics boasting that "naasikabhooshani naan paadum raagam" - that it was very average so what price handling a rare raga?

vel

9th January 2012, 01:56 PM

RR, the thread's title is quite awkward is what me also thinks. Something as simple as 'Choice of Ragams by new age Raaja - a discussion' would suit better, no?

Fully agree to this new title by KV....the old one seems to take a stance even before someone enters the thread,....RR, pls change the thread title.....

Gregorysab

9th January 2012, 02:35 PM

Reg: thread title - i already suggested the change!

9th January 2012, 03:16 PM

Ok, thread title changed.

vel

9th January 2012, 03:17 PM

Sureshs65

9th January 2012, 04:42 PM

KV,

I don't know too much theory but this is what I gathered.

In many case the Sa is shifted to Ma in the Eka Sthayi ragas as you mentioned. Famous one being Kurunji, Navroj, Nadanamakriya. Here the shift to Ma is to give more power to vocalize. For example, Navroj's aro/avo is from lower sthayi Dha to madhyama sthayi Dha. Which means, in olden days before mike (and later mike Mohan) made its appearance, your voice wouldn't be heard because you are in low ranges only and since the raga doesn't allow you to go beyong dhaivatha, you cannot do much about reaching the ears of the audience. So they shift the Sa upwards and the vocalist makes the Ma as his new Sa. So you are now hitting the higher registers and you can register well with the audience (pun ofcourse intended :) ).

That is not the case with 'Chandrabimbathin'. The reason according to Vicky as to why it was tuned in Madhyama sthayi is more to do with the Werstern Rock / Classical music's need to have the Pa available to set chords. Again, those who known rock / WCM can contribute but from what I heard if a ragam without Pa is chosen it is very tough to set chords to it. If you shift your sruthi to Ma, then the new Ri falls on the Pa. So you have Pa with you to set the chords. Since you known how to play an instrument, you can probably check about this with someone with rock/ wcm knowledge.

9th January 2012, 05:24 PM

Thanks for the info, Suresh.
And yes, I did come across the chord point in Vicky's clip, but still have my doubts over this song. Will give it some more listens, yoschu solren.

9th January 2012, 05:56 PM

Thinking aloud - if Chandrabimbam was so to be sung without any chords (keys or guitar; say, like in a katcheri with violin and mrudangam :razz:), would it still be considered Sriranjani?

Gregorysab

9th January 2012, 06:49 PM

I have a major confusion between Sri ranjani and Bhageshree (many times) when I listen to film songs. Only when I listen to one of them, for long time, in classical format, I can feel the difference. So, right from day one - i was feeling it could be bhageshree.. but was also drawing parallels between Vasantha Nilave (sooriyan) and this one! could never arrive at any conclusion! :-(

Sureshs65

9th January 2012, 09:23 PM

I must agree that "Chandrabimbathin' from a 'feel' perspective I don't get "Sriranjani' in 'Chandrabimbathin'. Neither do I get 'Bageshree'. What feel I get is more of Bahudhari. This was the ragam that was told to me and skr by another twitter personality (who is also an amateur musician). But Vicky says it is not Bahudhari scale. So I am also confused as to what this. The only confusion that I don't have is that it is an outstanding song :D :D

V_S

9th January 2012, 09:57 PM

I think this is one of the great discussions in the hub. Best in quality. Some excellent questions by aakarsh, RR and some deep insights from Suresh ji, vel, Plum...
Thanks to thumburu who kick started the proceedings, otherwise we would not have got these outstanding posts and insights. Now KV has started another interesting discussion on Sneha Veedu. Keep it going guys, great job! :clap:

skr

10th January 2012, 07:29 AM

Chandrabimbathin can be a never ending discussion.
I heard it as Bahudari only , infact Pravriti coz Bahudari does not have Da in the return which Pravriti has
If im right Pravriti is only Karnataka Khamas

The swaras what i hear in the pallavi are
Sa Ni Sa Ga Ma ,Pa Ma Ga Sa Ni , Ni Sa Ni Sa Ni Da Pa
Ni Sa Ga , Ni Sa Ga , Ni Sa Ga Ma , Ga Ma Pa Ga Ma Pa , Ga Ma Pa Ni Da Pa Ma Ga Sa Ni.
You clearly see the Dha in the return so i almost zeroed in on the fact that it was Pravriti. (Im delighted that KV too felt the same)
But , the popular opinion was Bahudari , understandably so coz it is a more well known raga atleast as compared to Pravriti

But if the Ma is made as the Sa that is by changing the shruti , we get Ma Ga Ma Da Ni , Sa Ni Da Ma Ga , Ga Ma Ga Ma Ga Ri Sa and henceforth.
So in this case it is Sriranjini or perhaps even Srimanoranjani as mentioned by my friend.
Regarding Bahudari , from a swara perspective atleast i can say it is not as there is neither Ri nor Pa in the aarohanam.
About feel , its one thing which im not very good at , so cant comment too much on that.

Any song i hear , by default the swaras are the first thing which comes to my mind and i could never think of this song as beginning with Ma.
Infact on speaking to Vicky , he said its only in the Charanam that he could arrive it at Sriranjini based on Root chord and stuff .
Perhaps only the Maestro can exactly say which Ragam it is :)

skr

10th January 2012, 07:35 AM

Guys , keeping the confusion on Chandrabimbathin alive , i stumbled across this song and the confusion grew further.
The song which im referring to is Kelaayo Kanna from Nane Raja Nane Manthri
http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR2277'&lang=en

I got a similar confusion as like in Chandrabimbathin when i heard this song
So what ragam can this song be classified as ?
Do you guys hear the swaras as Ma Ga Pa , Ma Ga Ma Sa or is it Ni Da Sa , Ni Da Ni Ma ?

vel

10th January 2012, 09:04 AM

Also RR, since carnatic is only one of the 23 music genres that Raaja has handled, please post a link in the title of this thread pointing to this Genres thread -- http://www.mayyam.com/talk/showthread.php?6707-Gems-of-raja-under-various-genres-of-music&p=797088#post797088 ...may be you can say, please click here for other Genres from IR

Hi RR, this genres thread suffers from the same problem that ROS faced...it just does not have any link up at the front landing page of tfm and it does not get listed (does not re-surface at home page) even if it getting some new posts.....i think this is a equally important thread and should get more front page traction/attention and thus must be sticky.....

11th January 2012, 12:41 PM

11th January 2012, 01:05 PM

RR, another request. There's an old thread 'Malaysian Deepavali show' that has always stayed afloat in spite of it having no updates. (Or is it something with the view I'm using?). Would it be possible to move it to archive or something like that?

11th January 2012, 01:23 PM

skr,suresh&all

Good analysis of chandrabimbathin..! I too don't see any signs of sriranjani. The scale seems to be S G3 M1 P N2 S with occassional D2, possibly in descent as skr noted. Quick googling tells me this is savitri. G3 version of IR's favorite suddha dhanyasi.

Whatever raga it is, the melody is a good one. Just wish the orchestration / percussion was more appealing.

11th January 2012, 01:24 PM

KV, It's a sticky thread. As you say, since no updates, will unsticky it.

Sureshs65

11th January 2012, 03:21 PM

RR,
Eh? I thought it was the orchestration /rhythm which caught everyone's fancy in "Chandrabimbathin'. Or are you talking about the second interlude drumming? The tabla in the pallavi was the killer I thought.

vel

11th January 2012, 04:45 PM

vel, I linked it on top of this thread. But I don't see any problem with tfm front page. It lists only the 5 most recent, so other more active threads may be taking precedence. In fact, I can see ROS thread now..

hi RR, thanks for linking it on the top of the thread.

Regarding front page, well there are some 30 links listed under the heading called "NEWS" at the home page. This Genres thread is not there in that group. Just wondering why?

thumburu

11th January 2012, 05:26 PM

On the song "sanku chakraala" -
Point taken.I would rather buy Suresh’s reasoning that it caters to the director’s sensibilities or V_S’s connecting it with the dhobi ethos or plum/aakarsh’s vouch for Andra folk authenticity than the claims it is based on Saraswathi or whatever.
Plum that "thaana vandha" was not meant to be an apple to apple comparison. It was to counter the false implication that few of us are expecting some high brow kutchery stuff[gamakam etal] and followed by the "sermoning"
the musical aspect has to be diluted to make the song true to folk. For all that I may care, Raja would have simply rehashed an existing folk song for this as Suresh already hinted a KVM connection. I did get a ”heard before” feel to this song.
V_S, this song was never in my mind when I summed up my review of SRR. My mild "munumunuppu" was towards “decent” melodies in Suddhadhanyasi/Mohanam/SindhuBhairavi. Afterall, naam ellaam
“azhagi varaa” ve [ULiOasai] thangindu irukkom idhu emmathiram? I was provoked to make that harsh remark. It seems to ruffle many a feather

Plum

11th January 2012, 05:40 PM

T, as I said, I fast forward the folk "pattu cheera" and even "dharmam saranam" and "chinnari ponnari"(a erstwhile fav) while listening to Swathi muthyam now. Hence the note on sanku chakrala. Otoh, rama kanavemiraa, I can hear any number of times. As of now, don't feel Sri Rama lera or the 3 story-moving songs are any lesser than that. My point is this is what I expect - it doesn't matter what raga these are. Your expectation seems to be different - fair enough but as I said, good lukc because it seems to me IR is more in line with my thinking than yours as of now :)

thumburu

11th January 2012, 05:54 PM

thumburu

11th January 2012, 05:59 PM

aakarsh, that was just a jest. Nothing serious

Sureshs65

11th January 2012, 06:47 PM

thumburu,

Maybe I should have made myself more clear but what I meant there about Sahana and Natakurunji is not that you cannot tune in them. More that it is difficult to give lot of songs in these ragas and display variety because of their inherent structure. Ofcourse KVM gave that lovely 'pathen sirithen' which till date happens to be the best Sahana in film music. Natakurunji has been used in MKT's day ('raagathil sirandhadhu naatakurunji' goes one line in that song.) 'Kannamoochi' predominantly takes the same raga swaroopa that 'Paal Vadiyum Mugam' displays. As you say it is predominantly Naatakurunji but then wanders away.

'Sahana' is one ragam which everyone asks me as to whether there are any Raja songs in. Upon hearing a negative reply, they wonder why he hasn't composed in that ragam. I have no clue why. When he can some lovely stuff with Bilahari and Saranga. Sahana and Naatakurunji should not be hard. But then the composer has to feel the need to compose in that raga. It is very difficult to say what is running in a composer's head. In case of a composer like Raja it is almost impossible to tell :)

Raja did tune an excellent Todi in Varusham 16 ('Gangai Karai Mannanadi') though I don't think he has done a standalone song in Bhairavi. MSV has a nice Bhairavi in a Malayalam movie. The song pallavi / movie name eludes me. Similarly in Malayalam music, Raja's guru, Dakshinamurthy Swami has tune in Sahana ('Swapnangal Swapnangale) as a part of ragamalika. He has also tune a lovely Begada('innale nee oru').

Ofcourse if one of us meets Raja, I think our first request would be to ask him for a tune in Sahana :D

Plum

11th January 2012, 07:21 PM

Actually, a cousin of mine is close to Karthikeyan and offerred to take me to Prasad studio - enaku dhaan dhairyam varala.

11th January 2012, 07:56 PM

thumburu, I understand that these are aadhangams of a (theevira?) rasigai, but I'm curious to know if there's a solid reason to rant or if this is just a longing. Like Suresh said, if we can ask why he hasn't composed in Sahana (or ragam x or y), the negative converse (at self: huh?) should also be logical, right? As in, why should he choose these scales? This isn't some silly defense point that I'm trying to make. When you have a guy who has composed in such a wide array of ragams, either purely in one scale or weaving two or more into one composition, if we are to pick on some particular ragams not being explored, then we're just being selfish (of course, as his fans, we are entitled to that). It's like whining that Sachin isn't scoring his 100th 100 while comfortably ingoring the fact that the man already has a insane total of runs and a truck full of records to his name.
I'm not against what you're wanting to get because that's what I want as well! But I think we should rather put it like Kamal in Dasa - I'm not saying his songs in certain ragams are not there, but just saying that it'd be better if there were!

11th January 2012, 08:50 PM

Suresh: On chandrabimbthin, the rhythm progression is strange. Not sure if it's the movie situation. If you take it out (same for many of the new age hits), I'll like this song more - but still won't be able to call it fantastic.
On vakra ragas, riti gowla will be my counter example. He was the first one to try it and since then many are using it and consistently churning out hits. Similarly desh. I have loved almost every desh that IR has tuned. He has so much innate feel of the raga, all were top class from 'vizhiyil puthu' to 'oranjaaram' to 'ennai kavarnthizhjutha'. More importantly, not giving any sign of resemblance. So vakra nature is not strictly a discouraging factor IMO. Maybe he needs some special motivation..

KV: After reading your post, I feel like I can understand Kamalhassan interviews like a baby.. :D

11th January 2012, 08:54 PM

vel,

'News' lists only the last 50 new topics. Genre gems is kind of older I suppose. Don't worry, if it gets very active, it'll get listed as hot threads under Ir albums (left menu).

Sureshs65

11th January 2012, 10:20 PM

RR,

I guess we should agree to disagree on 'Chandrabimbathin'. I find the rhythm especially very funky/new/engrossing etc. Added to it is the lovely chorus, which our Shank had pointed out earlier. I personally consider this a terrific song.

Coming to vakra ragas, as a wise sage once said, "All generalizations are false, including this one". So there are bound to be exceptions. At the same time, let us take Reethigowla. If I can recall correctly Raja has given 4 songs in this raga. A very small number compared to his enormous output. 'chinna kannan', 'rama kanavemiraa', 'thalayai kuniyum' and 'meetadha oru veenai' are what I am thinking about. Of this, I would say 'rama kanavemi raa' is a sort of standard issue Reethigowla and given that it is used in a Harikatha, works well for the situation. The other three are quite unique. 'thalayai kuniyum' being quite different from 'chinna kannan'. When 'meetadha oru veenai' came out, you could clearly make out that Raja wanted to give a different flavour to RG and succeeds here. Yet the fact that he also only composed 4 songs in this raga should give us some indication that making every attempt unique (which Raja wants to do) could be a challenge.

The other MDs have successfully used RG is something I agree. Rahman in 'Mudhalvan', Vidyasagar in 'Thambi', James Vasanthan in 'Subramanyapuram'. Vidyasagar's song didn't become too popular, Rahman's song was a hit while James Vasanthan's 'kangal irandal' was a humungous hit. All three were enjoyable melodies. At the same time I would say all three were 'standard issue' RG. There was nothing unique about them. Something which made me go 'Wow, the composer has done something unique to this raga'.

vel

12th January 2012, 12:14 PM

Hmmm, i seriously think the only solution is IR should first consult with some chronically dissatisfied experts here before he tunes his next raga based song ....

Idhu ellam avaroda thalai ezhuthu ! Enna panni tholaikaradhu?!

He is the most unfortunate musician i would say who has to put up with a grossly thankless audience , even after doing so much for music in all these years.

While people have limited options to turn to (except often to IR) for their intellectually stimulating wishlists, they tend to forget that beggars cant be chosers ! For example, the jazz music played before the Raaja concert did not appeal to me at all, but i fell in love with IR's monkey chatter theme music from mumbai express right from the first hearing. What to do, no one else comes this close to engaging the audience. Such is his golden expertise / USP in making the music connect with us. Since there has never been any competition to him in the innovation aspect, he can afford to take his sweet time to innovate at a pace that he decides.

We should first learn to take more time to find out and learn what IR has done and not be superficially dismissive just to look cool or to be seen as a tough critic !

Sureshs65

12th January 2012, 03:14 PM

Vel,

I think this process started when people realized that Raja was not invincible. (According to me he is still invincible musically but I talking commercial success here.) I guess lot of fans in the 90s thought he will mount a very serious challenge and ensure he keeps the throne. Unfortunately for them it did not happen and Rahman became a great commercial success displacing Raja. That subconsciously makes lot of people to stick to the 80s and proclaim that what was provided at the time is enough.

Secondly, I think lot of Raja fans (consciously or subconsciously) were taken in by the new sounds of Rahman and his new tunes. So much so that they thought Raja will also tune like that in order to be in tune with the times. But Raja did not do that and his music, at that time, in front of the newly glowing and lovingly recorded music, was sounding dated. I am not putting this forth as a theory but speaking from my own experience. Today I may be embarrassed to say it but during those days, even the music of 'Avatharam' and 'Raman Abdullah' "was OK but not upto the standard of the those days" in my thinking. in a way many probably felt 'betrayed' by Raja, because he did not sound 'modern' enough.

The third angle is the converse of the second. In case of certain fans, they thought Raja will counter Rahman by falling back to his earlier days. They thought he will come up with tunes in newer ragas, or use the manual orchestra more, never give up on SPB/KJY/Janaki and stuff like that. In other words, they thought Raja will create the 80s once again and that will defeat Rahman. Raja went in exactly the opposite direction. He started using synth, the manual orchestra was not used too often, his tunes didn't resemble his 80s tunes and he started using the more 'modern' singers like Hariharan and Unni Krishnan and 'gave up' SPB and Janaki. The synth did not sound as good as Rahman's did, the recording quality was not too great and many synth effects were outdated. All this added to many of the people becoming disillusioned and falling back on 'nothing like live instruments' and 'if there is even one synth beat, your song is bad' mode. If you understand this, you can understand why it is only Raja's fans who crib so much about his synth usage. No one cribs when the same synth is used by Rahman, Harris or Yuvan. I have seen many Raja fans enjoy songs of Rahman, Harris or Yuvan which are heavily synth based but they cannot take it when Raja uses it. To them it showcases the fact that Raja is not as good as Rahman in this aspect. The tragedy here is, if people were to observe carefully, especially Raja's Malayalam songs of the 90s and early 2000s, they can realize that he had zoomed far ahead in exploring the potential of the synth and has used it in multifarious ways. Ravi Natarajan had a nice series on Raja's synth usage and if people read it they may get some insights into it.

What people do not realize is that Raja himself has not been perturbed (musically) by these changes. Of course you can ask me, how do I know? I know nothing about Raja personally so I can only conclude this from his music. The only allowance that Raja made for the 'challenge' was the use of synthesizer. Recently I have been hearing lots of his post 1992 songs and one thing I notice is that nowhere are there any gimmicks. If someone were responding to a challenge and is desperate, it will show in his / her art. It doesn't show in Raja's music. As Rajasaranam says always and which Plum mentioned recently, Raja started being true to the director's vision and his music always followed that to the T. So when a 'Kalapani' came which needed a grand score, it got it. Whereas a V Shekar film like 'Vietnam Colony' got the subdued music which the film needed. 'Guru' got a score of epic proportions whereas a 'Karagattakari' got the folk is required. All the while Raja was sticking to his musical principles and his understanding of music vis a vis the movie and not vis a vis the music business. Even today he sticks to the same theory. For him, film music meant both the parts were integrated, film with music and not film 'and' music.

Additionally Raja was also moving forward. While I am not a great fan of some of his synth usage in Tamil films, I am big fan of how he used synth in Malayalam movies, 'sharadendhu paadi', 'manjulum raathi matram','virahamay', 'punnara poo', 'sivamallipoove', 'arudhe arudhe' etc showed how synth can be used to touch you. All these songs were in the 90s and each one touches you deeply. The 90s also see him work more with tunes where the orchestration is minimal, letting many a times the tune carry the whole song. After this came the phase where he started getting more and more interested in jazz which resulted in newer modes of music from him. As I have I always claimed, he has been updating himself and moving along. 'Virumandi', 'Mumbai Express', 'Pitamagan', 'Tiruvasagam', 'Pazhassi Raja'. Just check out how 'Virumandi' was. How can a MD, who all his life has been giving folk music, come up with something like 'Virumandi', which sounds so very different from what was done earlier. When the 'Ilangathu veesude' was played during Raja's recently live show, the person sitting next to me said, "How can man come up with such a tune, which has no trace of any song he did earlier and yet bear his unmistakable mark?" Shows how much Raja was working to keep things fresh and not to get nostalgic about his past.

The case of Raja's fans and their reaction, short term and long term, to his loss in popularity is something which can take a full PhD to do. The relationship between Raja and his fans is a complex ones and the fan base is also varied. Ranging from those who actively hate him but cannot do without his music all the way to fans who have always believed in him (like Rajasaranam) and those in between like me, who for a few years thought he was gone but realized that he never went off. It was our musical taste which changed a bit and after having listened to other types of music, I now love Raja even more. I have come to realize Raja will never want to be a man of the past. He wants to be a man of the present, always exploring newer avenues. I am happy for that and applaud it whenever I can.

So we shouldn't be too upset that there are people who now demand so many things from Raja. As Kamal said, we don't demand it from other MDs. We do it from Raja, because we know only he can deliver that!!!

csramasami

12th January 2012, 06:04 PM

Suresh & Others :

Just for record : that IR has given some Sahana short piece in the Harischandra kadhai in "Thunai Iruppal meenatchi" alongwith Thodi etc. if I remember correct.

CSR

thumburu

12th January 2012, 07:10 PM

[QUOTE=Sureshs65;798580]thumburu,

Maybe I should have made myself more clear but what I meant there about Sahana and Natakurunji is not that you cannot tune in them. More that it is difficult to give lot of songs in these ragas and display variety because of their inherent structure. Ofcourse KVM gave that lovely 'pathen sirithen' which till date happens to be the best Sahana in film music. Natakurunji has been used in MKT's day ('raagathil sirandhadhu naatakurunji' goes one line in that song.) 'Kannamoochi' predominantly takes the same raga swaroopa that 'Paal Vadiyum Mugam' displays. As you say it is predominantly Naatakurunji but then wanders away.

Suresh, I do see a point in yours. As you guess, Raja might have wanted to bye-pass Sahana as he might have felt certain swara sequence could be repetitive or could give away too much of the raga feature for a film song or like what IR always tells, doen't predetermine the ragam and just composes whatever tune comes to him naturally or not motivated enough to excel a benchmark of a song already existing[parthen sirithen] or plain, exercising his creator's liberty of not taking a fancy to the ragam. I was only showing a surprise , Raja bring the only TFM MD to have touched upon most number of ragas, more so,even the most uncommon in fim music like Gowlai, Rasikapriya, Kedharam etc .
I have already told this many times in this forum, I have a weakness for Raja's Shanmugapriya and can't seem to have enough of them.Along the melodic lines of "mazhai varuvadhu mayilukku theriyum" or "thamthana thamthana" or "rathiri neram rayiladi oram", I would like a few more from him in future.

KV, rant I did, few years before in this very forum. Not now. Read my post again . I used the word "mild" disappointment akin "Adhangam". Honestly I don't expect too much from Raja now a days. I had already attributed the cruel age factor, much to Sureshji's chagrin :)

KV Quote :
" I'm not saying his songs in certain ragams are not there, but just saying that it'd be better if there were! "

- Perfectly said. Agreed.

Sureshs65

12th January 2012, 07:42 PM

thumburu,

:) As you know I neither buy the age argument nor have I given up on his music. I still expect a lot more from him. And I am sure he will deliver :) 'Snehaveedu' was a stunner and I am sure there will be more in the coming days.

app_engine

12th January 2012, 09:19 PM

Great post Sureshji, especially the Ph.D part about the psychology of IRFs :lol2:

Ranging from those who actively hate him but cannot do without his music all the way to fans who have always believed in him (like Rajasaranam) and those in between like me, who for a few years thought he was gone but realized that he never went off.

Add another category :
Those who always "selectively" appreciated IR's music -loving some, liking some and showing no interest in some- and never rated any successors greater regardless of the commercial ups/downs :-)

Analyzing a little bit of this group's psychology, I would say that they're typically not rAgA-knowledgeable, some sound-knowledgeable (or know a little bit about instruments, notes, pitch, tune, tempo etc) and are more influenced by the "sensation-stimuli" phenomena than scientific / mathematic analysis stuff. That way, their own personal life situations (padippu, kalyANam / kudumbam, job, relocation, peers) influence the musical sensation to a great extent than even the absolute quality of the stimulus :-)

jaiganes

12th January 2012, 09:26 PM

To correct Suresh's post a little..
Vietnam Colony was not by V.Shekar - it was by Santhana barathi (i think - but definitely not V.Shekar).
The only theory in defense of Raaja, I am putting up here is probably this..
Theory: He feels that he has done all he could in the area of carnatic - where very few ppl take notice of what has been done and whatever you have to do cannot be presented successfully without the right singers. Plus there needs to be a script that needs heavy duty carnatic exploration and everyone here knows that there havent been any worth remembering in the recent times on that subject. On the WCM front - we have enough evidence to fill up a room on what he has done - his diminishing size of orchestra not withstanding. Early days of financial stress, he used synth to try out some of his experiments. I mean, synth - might not be all that ear catching, yet had all the layers intact with the notes and counterpoints and stuff like that. With the right project, one even got to hear the right balance of carnatic-WCM-Jazz blend with enough stuff of experimentation - Case in point being a movie like Ajanthaa - which was mostly done by B-listers, yet the subject of music troupe fired him up enough. So one can expand on this topic in a more general tone as why are we not making any music related movies anymore instead of blaming raaja for not trying out raagas - I mean thiraipaadal collection has a raaga collection of raaja and it very much includes some of the late 90s songs as well.. probably it is upon us to see post 2000 and catalogue - before blaming raaja for lack of variety. That way we can discover more hidden gems as well as come to a conclusion instead of trying to generalize a composer's output, which many of us have "labelled" "outdated", "lack lustre" etc., - how many of us even gave a proper listening to it?

Plum

12th January 2012, 09:36 PM

Sureshs65

12th January 2012, 10:42 PM

Plum,

Definitely not me :) I also have someone who has access to Prasad studios but I have told him I don't want to come anywhere near there :)

Jai,

You must be correct about 'Vietnam Colony'. I think it was a Mallu film remake.

jaiganes

12th January 2012, 11:11 PM

Here we can go do some data mining
http://thiraipaadal.com/md.php?page=43&MDID=MD00001&alpha=&lang=en&sort=year_asc
This is the link to a list from 1999 all IR albums - now let us list the songs and see what raagas have been used.
Let us leave the subjective rants like - i dont like this album - that has synth etc., etc., - let us be impartial.
and go about this in a due diligent way.. once we are done with the albums in this page, let us move on to the right...
The first album in the list is :
http://thiraipaadal.com/album.php?ALBID=ALBIRR00049&lang=en
this has got some nice melodies.
who wants to go first and make a list of raagas in this album?

The list totally has got 75 albums (i am excluding the undatable albums added to the list and independent works like thiruvasagam which are included in the catalogue..
even assuming 4 unique songs per album it is close to 300 songs.. I guess we have a finite number to do an analysis and proclaim a conclusion at the end..

baroque

13th January 2012, 12:52 AM

try to sort out the rehashed tune and ignore one/more composition(s) too in the same scale.

from this album, vayasu pulla vayasu pulla... is exactly same tune as gundu malli gundu malli...

Count as 1. rehashed tune.

same scale , new & different tune..... Go for it. then exercise will be exciting too.

oh... Raja, I expect nothing from you, You gave it all for this life and more! I am content.:ty:

Vinatha.

jaiganes

13th January 2012, 09:09 AM

Listening to "Kolusu konjum Raagam" from Chinna durai - a 1999 unrecognized gem by raasa.
It is one word AWESOME. Never heard this song all these times - this awesome melody has been
sung in the most smooth manner by Unni Krishnan and Devi (???). I would classify it along with
the new age - tribal fusions Raaja has done in Bhoomigeethe (kannada movie). Another striking aspect
is the way chorus track has been shaped - with all the care and they sing on par with the lead singers.
Awesome song.. gonna be on my playlist for a while now..
Idhoda raagam ennaannu sollunga please..

13th January 2012, 12:16 PM

Suresh, vel

Well.. there's another group of IR fans you missed out. They started out like every IR fan 'he is invincible', and when ARR succeeded commercially, were looking eagerly what IR was going to do. IR (as I thought he should) came up with an entirely new approach which majority felt sounded ok but not great. I think this has nothing to do ARR's catchy tunes or recordings or synth (contrast to what suresh postulated). If it's really good music, people will come - and IR fans will be the first. Good example: ennai thaalatta varuvaalo. I didn't see a catchy tune or glowing recording or excellent synth. In fact, the ARR/KR style orchestration was the only bother for me, but the song was just too good to dislike for anyone.

The group I mention refuse to believe the 'OK, but not great' part . They strongly vouch for the songs and say they are still great. And they give examples from raman abdullah..! Well, there is one charanam start or a nice piano interlude that no current MD can match, but does it make the song great?!! Appears to me they just can't accept their demi-god has degraded but instead knowingly or unknowingly 'adjusted' their tastes. (One can see this clear when one 'dheemi dheemi' song hits. They just go ga ga.. when in reality, it's a good catchy one of 80's type - but nothing to rave about. ) They seem to just dig enough to find some parts that are cool and get satisfaction. Or maybe the music just grows on them to become impressive. How do I know this? Well, I was one of them and was as biased until about 'kaathal kavithai' times.. when realization finally set in.

True, we all come from his 80's songs as the baseline. But it doesn't mean that we are expecting the same tunes or same style. Rather we are wishing for songs of that standard. Actually he has set himself a high standard by giving top compositions even in commercial songs (e.g. 'chamakku chamakku'). The hard fact was - in the new approach he has chosen - he has tried enough but was unable to impress much. So.. factors like complacency, bruised ego, age - cruel it may be for IR fans like us - cannot be ruled out. 'situations demanded' is a not a strong argument. We are talking about the overall music quality over a reasonably large collection of his recent outputs.

Debatable it maybe, an excellent film song must appeal to you quickly - no matter it's a tea stall or radio. Things can be complex, but something must touch you somewhere if it's great music (recall IR's words in jayatv press meet). If it gets so intricate that one has to follow the composer, understand him, dig deep enough to apprecitiate it, well we are talking about classical music.. not film music. Composer will be sure loser in this game. Of all people, IR must know this. Maybe he is getting false impressions from people who just can't say anything negative. But he sure must be able to sense it.

vel, i see your perspective but we are not beggars that he throws free cd's into our pockets. Fans have every right to give positive and negative feedback and demand good music, and a good fan like you know that positive-only feedback hurts everyone. Actually in our case, we are talking about HCIRF's where the relationship has more rights - if you ask me ;) Not blind devotion.

Well I shd disclaim that I'm not a subbudu-wannabe :D. I'm still a diehard IR fan who wants to remain truly unbiased and critique on his music where it truly deserves. My hope is: it'll get ultimately come back to us as greater music.. :)

With that I rest my case..

13th January 2012, 12:26 PM

This discussion comes and goes. Here's the gauntlet: any of you want to ask these to the man himself. Not promoisning but I can try thro my cousin. A gang of 10 will be rejected but 3-4 people, yes, I can try. Any takers?
Plum, it'll be futile. First of all, we all will be dumbstruck by his shear presence. Even if we manage to raise it up, his responses will be so general and deep enough (I'm afraid not to the point though) that anyone will be able to argue.

I know Lakshminarayanan (of CI fame) once met him personally to talk, and he did but he could only listen to him calmly :)

vel

13th January 2012, 01:11 PM

Suresh, vel

vel, i see your perspective but we are not beggars that he throws free cd's into our pockets. Fans have every right to give positive and negative feedback and demand good music, and a good fan like you know that positive-only feedback hurts everyone. Actually in our case, we are talking about HCIRF's where the relationship has more rights - if you ask me ;) Not blind devotion.

Well I shd disclaim that I'm not a subbudu-wannabe :D. I'm still a diehard IR fan who wants to remain truly unbiased and critique on his music where it truly deserves. My hope is: it'll get ultimately come back to us as greater music.. :)

With that I rest my case..

Annae RR, naan ungala sollalae....i have been here for years and i know your passion very well ! It is good that you dont have blind devotion. We need to have disruptive team members amongst us, else we will not be a good team of music lovers.

My only point was, like blind devotion you mentioned, i would also be careful against people with blind/careless/utterly dismissive hatred. Avlodhaannae en aadhangam !

[P.S. regarding IR throwing free CDs? -- honestly, i am sure atleast 70% of the people never buy ORIGINAL CDs. Only "free meals" dhaan, listening to online samples and hurriedly writing quick reviews...But usually (and unfortunately) that crowd only makes the loudest noise....]

Sureshs65

13th January 2012, 03:17 PM

RR,

Ofcourse that is where we depart, right? :) I mean, people accepted 'ennai thaalaata' and 'Kadalukku Mariyadhai' very easily. The same people did not accept 'Avatharam' with the same passion. (I was in Chennai then.) 'Avatharam' used to lag behind in all the song countdown shows whereas 'ennai thalatta varuvaala' did go to the top and was played everywhere. If you ask me, as a rasika, I will go with 'Avatharam' to my grave. It is a masterpiece (not the OK kind, but a real masterpiece in every sense of the word. I wouldn't mind missing 'Kadhalukku Mariyadhai'. It is a nice album but not in the same class as 'Avatharam' to me. In what way would 'thenral vandhum theendum' be inferior to the 80s masterpieces?

You believe that if songs are good people will appreciate it. I believe the definition of good remains the same but the definition of 'popular' keeps changing. The 80s Illayaraja was good and popular. The later day Illayaraja is good but not popular. The 'Kadalukku Mariyadhai' vs 'Avatharam' will prove that. When the most popular songs of today are the same rehashed tunes of Harris Jayaraj, the mindless kuthu of Vijay Antony, or Yuvan singing is his non singable voice, if people don't like a 'oli tharum sooriyanum' or 'unnai patri sonnaal', I am not surprised.

I for one, don't agree on the tea stall argument. That is the perfect definition of a catchy song, something with the Hindi director and actor, Raj Kapoor, used to tell his music directors. He definitely did get catchy tunes, which were hits. And MDs like Shankar Jaikishen, OP Nayyar were ruling the roost. At that same time people like Madan Mohan, Roshan, Jaidev, Salil Choudary were getting only occasional hits and may of their compositions didn't go down well with the tea stalls. Yet, today the number of Madan Mohan and Roshan compositions that get heard is definitely on par, if not more, compared to the compositions of Shankar Jaikishen and OP Nayyar. If you follow the history of Hindi film music, you can clearly see that dichotomy. There were MDs of class, who never got the adulation. And there were MDs for mass, who got the adulation but their music, atleast according to me, never reached the heights of the class MDs. It was only in South India that the popular MDs were also the best MDs of those times. It was our luck that Raja had so many ideas to communicate and yet he was able to reach everyone. To some extent he moulded our tastes towards high class music.

Though I want to go on, let me just summarize the difference between our point of views and then stop. You belong to a group which believes Raja is not at his peak form, he has definitely fallen behind musically (maybe due to him being lazy, or him being disinterested, or him just losing the ability or maybe age has caught up with him.) You refuse to believe that in his quite large output the last decade, he has done much to match up to the standards he set himself. I, ofcourse, belong to the group which believes the opposite. Raja's touch is intact, people's taste have changed and the definition of the popular song has changed and Raja, given his need to put in some complex ideas into his compositions, refuses to dumb down his music. I believe that the later 90s and 2000s showed the full potential of Raja in form of terrific albums like 'Kala Pani', 'Guru', 'Virumandi', 'Tiruvasagam', 'Mumbai Express','Oru Yathramozhi', 'Pazhassiraja' etc, which, in my opinion don't have a counterpart in the 80s.

In short, the gap in our understanding of Raja is wide and each one considers his / her view the correct. So that chasm will not be closed any time soon :) The proof: We can't even agree that 'Snehaveedu' is a terrific album :D

13th January 2012, 03:31 PM

We need to have disruptive team members amongst us, else we will not be a good team of music lovers.
Good point :thumbsup: (You can also add 'or else tfmpage/hub will not thrive' ;)) Fully with you on this one.

On the 'free meals', that's true for the whole film industry and i agree that significant fraction are enjoying it. But I think IR fans are better. Just see how fast the live concert videos were taken off youtube recently. Forget the kids who fight just for the sake of it. No point worrying about them. But, ithu thaan saakku-nnu, aNNe endru solli en vayasu-ai increase pannidaadheenga..

13th January 2012, 04:06 PM

Suresh, I know.. we already agreed to disagree. :) So, both are not trying to convince the other party. At least I was not. ;) Just expressing our perspectives more clearly. Two points:

i) I liked both 'ennai thaalatta' and 'thendral vandhu' songs but not the albums. To be more specific, not even the bhava version 'ithu sangeetha'.

ii) Genre is a key point of mine. What is 'good' or not critically hinges on that. I am only talking about film music genre, and here what's good is clear according to the parameters I specified. And, accordingly snehaveedu can only be called good - not excellent.

Pls don't bring harris, etc into the topic. That'll be an insult..

Sureshs65

13th January 2012, 04:14 PM

RR,

Again, we will agree to disagree on the parameters of the 'film genre' as well. I do hold that 'good' and 'popular' need not be synonymous. They were in South Indian film music but not a necessity. And yes, 'Snehaveedu', according to all my parameters is a top class album. With that I too will rest my case. (Atleast till I see the next post :D )

Sureshs65

13th January 2012, 04:16 PM

.. and I got in Harris because he is 'popular', 'catchy', liked by a lot of people and is being heard in the tea kadais :)

13th January 2012, 05:21 PM

Come to think of it, there are more 'coffee shops' than tea kadais now and Raaja is kinda outdated for them (yo dude! Raajuh? whadya talkin! Play some kewl stuff, man!) And for the smaller town tea kadais, he's possibly become too modern! Raaja fans maadhiriye avarum ingittum illa anguttum illa nu aaitaaru. :grin:

Plum, your offer's way too tempting, but like the others, manasula heavvya beedhi. Nonetheless, I'd still want to meet him personally, at least once. I'd probably make a fool of myself in his presence, but the 'moment' would surely be something to cherish, I'm quite sure.

Jai, your approach actually sounds interesting, I'm game for it (ennoda aragora tekkinikki-a vechchu). I really don't know how fruitful the effort would be, but one can bet that we'll end up unearthing some lesser heard numbers in the process. That itself would be worth the time.

vel

13th January 2012, 06:37 PM

Good point :thumbsup: (You can also add 'or else tfmpage/hub will not thrive' ;)) Fully with you on this one.

On the 'free meals', that's true for the whole film industry and i agree that significant fraction are enjoying it. But I think IR fans are better. Just see how fast the live concert videos were taken off youtube recently. Forget the kids who fight just for the sake of it. No point worrying about them. But, ithu thaan saakku-nnu, aNNe endru solli en vayasu-ai increase pannidaadheenga..

RR, neenga kids'nnu sollumbodhe vayasu slightá theriyudhu... :-)

Anyways, all is well ! As i said, having disruptive members on board is a good management practise !!

13th January 2012, 08:37 PM

Your parameters are still unclear, but let's take a brether.

guys, pls throw in another 'chandrabimbathin' and let's dissect it..

jaiganes

13th January 2012, 08:43 PM

@RR - nicely generalized - but pls move it to a diff. thread - when we are talking about raaga choices, lets stick to just them - coz this thread by the very definition says "Raaga choices" - not "popularity measure" .
as regards to that - nembave discus panniyaachu. It needs to be seen along with the trends in taste and preference changes in a mass market segment - MBA case study evanaachum pannuvaan adhula..

Sureshs65

13th January 2012, 09:47 PM

Jai,

I want to start a thread on Raja's 90s song, rarely heard ones. I did put out around 80 songs on twitter before work pressure overtook me. Will start this here after some time. I don't want to restrict it only to raga choices there but we can discuss ragas when it is relevant.

vel

13th January 2012, 10:18 PM

baroque

13th January 2012, 10:52 PM

http://www.musicplug.in/multiple_song_flashplayer.php?songid=23510&br=medium&id=4456&songname=Kolusu-Konjam&page=movies

Kolusu konjum Raagam from Chinna durai , it is popular, I remembered hearing during some India trip early 2000.
It is the same tune as kaadhal vaaniley... or mayilaadum solai......or kaalaiyil kettadhu koyil mani...... etc..sudhdha dhanyasi.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5r5H5VMtTM

S.P.Bala's voice in the similiar tune.....:-D, makes me giddy!

vinatha.

jaiganes

13th January 2012, 11:27 PM

@ baroque - same tune? I thought the tune was diff.. Same raaga perhaps..
did u listen to the SPB song from the same album - very nice!!

baroque

13th January 2012, 11:33 PM

IMPROVISATIONS IS THE SAME. sudhdha dhanyasi, I have mentioned.

chinna thurai, I must have some where, thinking will check out this evening. thanks.:)

see, i read your post, started with 1999(CT), moved to 1995-Rasaiya, went to 1992-mayilaadum thoppil, that's all, I will be trapped by 80s Ilayaraja with kaalaiyil kettadhu....1992 and before ... that's all impossible to climb up to current Ilayaraja for me!:-D HAPPY HAPPY JOY JOY.

Current IR, I buy the album whether I watch the movie or even crazy about the songs or not. Some day I will be in the mood to the ones I ignore earlier.

But Harris, Deva, Yuvan etc... I tumble down on the song while watching movies or rarely listen to see what's new, may be some day I make it assorted collection with the ones i like konja naal poru thalaivaa....,unnale unnale...,kaatrin mozhi... etc..

Last weekend I watched Cheran's Muran. Good work from Cheran. Fantastic ending. But I don't remember any songs. MD fellow yaarunnu kooda theriyaadhu, I don't care also. I will revisit the movie in future.

film makers like cheran, amir khan, vishal barathwaj are sensible fellows. I am curious about them.

IR belongs with Khaiyyam, S.D.Burman etc.

Khaiyyam's two albums coming, I may or may not watch the movie but albums Cd I look forward to and buy.

Hope they do justice to the great man's efforts like Bazar or Akhri khat etc.. Otherwise also Khaiyyam stands tall, sells his music quitely.:)

VINATHA.

14th January 2012, 11:01 AM

IMPROVISATIONS IS THE SAME.
I agree. This is similar to the discussions we had on 'sri rama'. For raga enthusiasts and those who've grown with IR for long, I think it's hard not to notice and feel this way..

Interesting to read your likes, vinatha. Keep posting your hindi favorites in raj thread. I follow them regularly.

baroque

14th January 2012, 11:08 AM

:)
vinatha

Sureshs65

14th January 2012, 05:36 PM

Getting back to the topic of the thread, I will try to post the various ragas Raja used late 90s and 2000s. These maybe the 'same old' ragas or newer / not oft used ragas. In any case we will try to see how Raja's technique has changed from the 80s wherever we can.

Today I want to post two songs based on the ragam 'Sivaranjani'. One is a Tamil song and another one a Malayalam song. The Tamil song is from the movie, 'Sakkara Devan' sung by Malaysia Vasudevan and S.Janaki. This was a bit popular when it was released. 'manjal poosum' from 'Sakkara Devan' here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_W1OfyWLtL8

Now, let us listen to 'ponnavani paadam' from 'Rasathanthram'. The same Sivaranjani ragam but checks how different it sounds in the charanam. (You can hear the similarity in the pallavi)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ek5uLKxPDVs

'manjal poosum' is a typical 90s Raja melody. The usage of tabla, the real instruments (especially the flute), his favorite singers. Malaysia and Janaki. Raja evokes Sivaranjani very well in this song and gives it a romantic touch. The beats are also very nice. Doesn't follow the normal 4x4 structure. The beat gives the song a different quality altogether.

'ponnavani paadam': One contestant sang this in a reality show in a Malayalam channel. Hearing it Usha Uthup exclaimed, "What a flow!!! I am hearing it for the first time but you can clearly see it is a Raja song. Very high energy". That is true. The charanams especially flows as if they are rivers flowing down the mountains. Unlike 'manjal poosum' you have lot of synth in this. song. The beats again or unique. Synth pads combined with the thavil. The interludes a mix of real instruments and synth. The singers are new age singers, Madhu Balakrishnan and Manjari. Movie was released in early 2000s.

Honestly I don't have much to choose between the two. Both are excellent melodies with their strong points.

baroque

14th January 2012, 11:07 PM

manjal poosum.... Vasu and Janu:musicsmile:

good job, Suresh.

I was listening to Shanmuga priya - MSS, this pongal morning, thinking...

last time Raja gave this rag in Tamil was MOGAMUL.

Janakiraman's Mogamul is a classic, the compositions are real stunners.

Veena, flute, violin, longing Janu's humming in Rag Shanmuga priya is a gem of a composition.:musicsmile:

Ilayaraja's shanmuga priya was 1995.

With this composition and rag, I can start with 1995, go down to salangai oli or aan paavam of 80s, still climb

up back with enthu and blast several times

No trouble 90s IR retaining me!http://www.mayyam.com/talk/images/smilies/musicsmile.gif

http://www.paadal.com/album/tamilsongs/mogamul-tamil-movie-songs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Kgyb_A86xk

I never seen this album in CD. One time, I was able to buy only cassettes of some Ilayaraja albums.
:roll:

PONGAL WISHES TO YOU ALL!

vinatha.

ravinat

14th January 2012, 11:40 PM

Suresh brought to my attention about this debate on Raja's new age work. On other Raja forums, I have been a torch bearer for both Raja's work on non-Tamil films as well as his work in the last 22 years (post 90s). I realized that the initial discussions in this forum was trying to fit Raja into the CCM box (various ragams, techniques from CCM). For almost 6 years, I have been trying to box him in three other boxes. The WCM box, the Techno-baroque box and more recently an arrangement box (choir, clever folk arrangements etc).

The long and short of most of my analysis has been one thing: you cannot box the man, however many boxes you have. I am sure, somebody tried to find the rock and roll/disco box even in the 80s for him. Most analysts try to come out with a grand phenomenon at the end and try to link every argument they have to that phenomenon. You just cannot do that with Raja. Perhaps, it may be due to the fact that we live during his time. Even Bach was not boxed into his baroque exploits during his time. Only when somebody chose to understand the genius several decades after his time, the world recognized it.

If this approach of trying to analyze him may prove futile, why do it? There is a joy in failure, and I thoroughly enjoy it. Take a set of 25 songs from various decades and scan it looking for one pattern (folk, arrangement, ragams what have you), you will get an answer. Reanalyze this same set with a different criteria, you will get another result set. That's the sheer genius of the man. But, you learn new things with every scan. All I see in these emails is just that. Different views scanning the same subject from different perspectives. Recently, I took up one song from Raja's 90s - Kottum Kuzalvizhi from Kaala Paani. You can write about this song from a violin arrangement perspective alone. You can also look at the choir arrangement and write from another perspective. There is an opera element in that song that has been very cleverly arranged by Raja. That's the third perspective. All these three perspectives are from analyzing only the interludes in this song!

Unlike most Raja fans, I became serious about his music, only after hearing Cheeni Kum, supposed to be a light version of his several heavy 80s work. My focus has been primarily to uncover most of his 90s and 21st century work as I had taken my focus off Raja for those two decades. I did not have the 80s baggage and viewed it as another phase of his career. There is so much to be uncovered and ignoring Raja's post 90s work will never reveal a complete picture. For instance, his Maya bazaar Capella work (Naan Porandhu Vandhadhu) has its origin in Kelade Nema Geega from Geetha in the early 80s.

With age, there are a few undeniable things - he is not able to do as many films, (nor are there commercial opportunities), not able to connect with the current generation and somehow got himself painted as a specialist. However, I see very few compromises, come what may from Raja. His best Capella work came when he was completely down!

Cheers

Ravi Natarajan
http://geniusraja.blogspot.com

Sureshs65

15th January 2012, 12:37 AM

Ravi,

Nicely put. I updated you because of your interest in Raja's later works. As you say, Raja has not compromised on his music and I believe in that. Again as you said, it is difficult to box. I think it was Plum who said here that which ever way you cut him, Raja still shines. He is a true diamond.

Sureshs65

15th January 2012, 12:53 AM

Vinatha,

Raja did give that wonderful Shanmukhaapriya in 'Moga Mull'. He later used that in a very new age way in this outstanding song from Malayalam 'Friends'. 'sivamallipoove' remains an eternal favorite of mine. Outstanding orchestra, superb use of the synthesizer and Chitra's glorious vocals.

http://www.raaga.com/player4/?id=17875&mode=100&rand=0.29419720863547394

Songs like these are proof to me that Raja has neither aged, nor his imagination come down. He is just looking at the same raga with a different lens and he sees new colors. If we refuse to see it, we are the losers, aren't we?

baroque

15th January 2012, 01:35 AM

good good, suresh,

malayalam sivamalli..... chithra composition is a good one.

I am kind of running between my sankaranthi koottu etc..:) & my favorite music

composers...it was in my mind to post too.

still usage of shanmugapriya was 1999 and early.

more than decade +2 yrs for those of you noting his raga usage.....mmmmm....

thanks for the composition for my pleasure while I finish my pongal items.

without IR sangeetham, no day or festival is complete for us.:musicsmile:

vinatha

ravinat

15th January 2012, 04:47 AM

Continuing on the topic, folks like us will continue to try and box him with more boxes. I do not see any way to categorize him under one box - it's sort of searching for a unified field theory. We must however, in this journey of trying to uncover him, should not timebox him:smile2:

The man is wired in a basic way and that has not changed in any way. He had a strong WCM and CCM basics, but quickly learned how to integrate disco, rock and roll from his own senior orchestral colleagues. He was at the same time, doing unconventional things like integrating shehnai into his mostly South Indian music! While he was trying to do this, he also jumped on to integrating the synthesizer into his music selectively.

The 90s saw him trying to replace some parts of his 'hit combination' - replace strings with synthesized versions, replace percussion with synthesized ones. There were hits and misses. We must remember that he worked as a music assistant for about 150 films under GKV. He has enough time to figure out what will and will not work. That carried him through the first 10 years of his career. The next 10 years was augmented by his additional CCM learning and inputs from his senior orchestral colleagues. 20 years into his career, he tried to re-engg his running train - hard stuff to do. Some of his experiments failed (it continues to fail even today, in my view). Such is the world of musical experimentation with such wide choices that he is expected to dish out.

Most of the popular MDs in IFM today are going through what Raja did in his first 10 years. However, they are nowhere close to what he did in his first 10 years, nor do they have enough opportunity or the output or the quality of 76-86 Raja. All of them without exception run out of steam quickly.

To illustrate one more case of Raja's 90s and how I saw it differently, try this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32S3qjLk4t8

Vicky and Vel saw Chakravagam being used very well by Raja. I saw the choir arrangement and the synthesizer wonders that he has executed in the same track. Please ignore the childish visuals. Even today, I keep wondering how you can integrate scat singing, a complex choir with a brilliant synthesized flute into a chakravagam melody. Hear the second interlude and it will blow the socks of any serious music lover. I am not complaining that he used chakravagam as he has used it several times before. I am only delighted by the modern treatment he gave to this ragam.

For every one of this, there will be 3 others that did not work that well.

In short, he is the best thing that happened to music before him and after him. He has managed to take the best of both Thiagaraja and Bach and add his own flavor and elevate mean mortals like me to levels that cannot be imagined otherwise.

V_S

15th January 2012, 05:34 AM

Welcome here Ravi. :D Very nice to see you here. Loved the way you see Raja and all interesting view points. Aha! Like they say in The Lord of the Rings, 'Once ring will rule them all', you said it, 'He is the best thing that happened to music before him and after him. Great statement with a perfect example. Like to hear more from you.

15th January 2012, 08:45 AM

Before I forget.

Jai,

I want to start a thread on Raja's 90s song, rarely heard ones. I did put out around 80 songs on twitter before work pressure overtook me. Will start this here after some time. I don't want to restrict it only to raga choices there but we can discuss ragas when it is relevant.
I'm ok with this. btw, what's your twitter id?

15th January 2012, 09:11 AM

Ravi Natarajan,

Welcome.. Good to read your posts! I think 'boxing him' is not the main point. Most of us know how futile the exercise is.. :D Right from early days he has kept us guessing.. 'kuyile kavikkuyile', 'andhi mazhai' . People have been branding them safely as 'fusion' - which really doesn't say much. Anyway now that we generalized, can discuss all perspectives in trying to understand our man - the enigma..

'alli sundaravalli' is a good song to show that raga name doesn't really matter for him. He can do the same, be it sahana or desh. However, in 'alli' case, I am unable to call it great even through there's catchy tune, good raga, orchestration. Something's lacking - sorry..

15th January 2012, 09:31 AM

Suresh,

Both are pretty good sivaranjani's. Even though hundreds of sivaranjani's come out in films & other genres, we can see IR's edge so dramatically in these songs.

I too can't find much to pick one over the other. Maybe they are somewhat close in timeline. Interestingly, the rasathanthram is more TFM-y than the other IR mallu songs I've heard.

Sureshs65

15th January 2012, 10:04 AM

RR,

My twitter id is @Raaga_Suresh

Sureshs65

15th January 2012, 10:23 AM

RR,

Those Sivaranjanis are separated by a decade I think. 'Sakkar Deva' was a 1993 release and 'Rasathantram' was probably a 2002/2003 release.

15th January 2012, 10:27 PM

RR,My twitter id is @Raaga_Suresh
God.. you are a tweet-aholic ! will have chances to interact once a while there..

Those Sivaranjanis are separated by a decade I think. 'Sakkar Deva' was a 1993 release and 'Rasathantram' was probably a 2002/2003 release.
Interesting.. I see only the synth usage as a major difference. Sivaranjani & 90's remind me the irresistible 'kuyil paattu'..

vel

15th January 2012, 11:23 PM

This may not be not specific to IR's raga choices, but this nice article by a westerner shows how they perceive raaja's music -- cheeni kum, naan kadavul and mumbai xpress....

An "Unknown" Indian Film Music master

Posted By: Steven A. Kennedy on March 9, 2009 - 9:00 PM -- Film Score Daily magazine

While “Bollywood” films tend to claim a more universal appeal, India’s cinema has unique regional flavors which are as equally prolific. Many of the films tend to last an average of an hour more than the typical American film. Composers are generally musical directors whose instrumental underscore often is minimal with a predominance of songs. One of the most prolific of these composers is maestro Illayaraja.
Ilaiyaraaja has composed over 900 film scores (take that Morricone!) and a host of crossover albums. Many of the films he writes for though tend to be in more regional languages which tends to limit their marketability. Limit seems an odd word to choose given the 200 million or so people for whom Ilaiyaraaja is a more familiar name. Over the years, the composer has explored combining Western and Indian musics to create an intriguing blend of sounds and is credited with writing the first Asian symphony. One of his other superb accomplishments is an oratorio, Thiruvasagam,which is a massive work for chorus and orchestra. Born in the Tamil region of Southern India in 1943, Ilaiyaraaja began his career in the 1970s in the Tamil film industry sometimes referred to as Kollywood. With over 4500 songs to his credit as well, he is undoubtedly one of India’s best kept secrets.
Before sharing much about the music, it must be pointed out that for this reviewer, getting a handle on the extensive career and music of this composer is a bit overwhelming. Imagine summing up the career of say John Williams or Ennio Morricone with three film scores and a couple of instrumental classical albums. To say we are scratching the surface would be a gross understatement as the best one can hope to do here is to prick the skin.
For those however looking to hear how Ilaiyaraajacombines Western styles with Indian ones there are two albums which can be recommended. One of the things the composer is noted for is his exploration of Western classical traditions melding them into an Indian musical context and sensibility. In two crossover discs, imported on Oriental Records (www.orientalrecords.com) you can hear two distinct approaches. In How to Name It?, the composer focuses primarily on exploring the Italian Baroque period. With a prominent solo violin often playing a raga-inspired melodic idea, strings churn away underneath in a rather intriguing fusion of two ancient traditions (though the one is far more ancient than the other!). There are some modish moments as well here recalling the odd funky music of 1960s pop sounds as well, but the bulk of the album maintains this Baroque sensibility. One gets a sense of the inventiveness of Ilaiyaraaja in this disc due to the semi-improvisational feel that is created by the melodic direction of the music—perhaps a true melding of East and West. A second release from the same label, Nothing But Wind, shifts into the next Western musical soundworld of the later 18th century with a Mozartian orchestra supporting a rather beautiful flute line, played by Hariprasad Chaurasia (sort of the Indian answer to Jean-Pierre Rampal or James Galway). The five tracks of this latter release might be an easier entry into this unique blending of musics for most Western listeners.
Three film scores representing different genres were available to sample all from more recent films. The first of these is for a 2005 comedy, Mumbai Express (Venus Records 1542). Over the 6 ample tracks here, we here the jazzy funky sounds of “Aila Re” to samples of underscoring with dialogue in “Pyaar Chahiye” which give way to another beautiful lyric song. As all good film music does, Illayaraja’s score simply supports narrative with appropriate melodrama cast in moving string sounds. In “Bander Ki Dug Dugi” Indian percussion give way to an almost Grusin-like 80s jazz sound with vocals. This blend of dialogue that moves into song is indicative of Indian cinema and what this disc allows is fans of the film to hear the complete context of the songs that are used in the film and how the instrumental music weaves into and out of the song material. The one instrumental track, “Monkey Chatter,” is actually an 80s-ish jazz instrumental piece that uses a variety of electronic keyboards and some acoustic instruments (or an extremely dryly recorded live orchestra) for a suberb jazzy track. Most listeners would be hard pressed to know that this track was composed by an Indian composer demonstrating Illayaraja’s complete mastery of the Western forms explored here (this can be heard equally in the more classical crossover releases available for review as well). The melodic content of the score has an almost spiritual quality at times that makes it quite an engaging listen. The disc runs to 45 minutes but note that 16 minutes of that are repeated as bookends to the central material.
Cheeni Kum (2007) is a romantic comedy and features vocalist Shreya Ghosal who sings most of the tracks here (Eros Music 10, www.erosentertainment.com). The title song has a disco back beat with a very catchy melodic idea. Catchy and engaging melodies are part and parcel for illayaraja’s music which truly do grab the ear in such a way that you surprisingly find yourself humming along with them almost upon first hearing. Harder rock sounds appear cast against a semi-improvisational jazz approach throughout this score as well and dialogue can appear at random moments as part of the texture. You can get a sense for the expert combination of raga and Western melodic sensibility in the pop ballad “Jaane Do Na” as the melody is outlined in piano before moving into a more pop style. The primary melodic idea is recast in the other songs here as well with some slight variation. Where that melody ends up is what makes for interesting listening as we hear the primary opening move off into fascinating and beautiful realizations. The orchestral backdrop, with occasional near techno sounds, and interesting electronic keyboard elaborations still gives some of the music an 1980s feel, though the general thrust of the music stands as an easily contemporary as any other new film song and as engaging as those now made famous in Slumdog Millionaire. There are two instrumental tracks to round off the album. The first is a more traditional orchestral piece the second a electronic-laced jazzy number. The former suffers a lot of audio distortion unfortunately. At 30 minutes, this might be a harder disc to recommend. The music contained here actually comes from earlier Ilaiyaraaja songs polished up for presentation in this current film so fans are getting to hear perhaps some older favorites in a new light. The sound quality is not as good in the purely instrumental segments, but it is for the beautiful singing voice of Ghosal and melodic content that can recommend this release.
Finally, the most recent score made available for sampling is Naan Kadavul, released this past January in India (Pyramid Saimara Music 118, www.pstl.in). For this action drama, Ilaiyaraaja explores more traditional Indian melodic content and chanting in choral groupings in the opening track (the disc does not have translated titles for reference) which features traditional instrumental choices (though often cast in a more rocklike sound) and fabulous drumming accompaniments that form an almost hypnotic repetitive motion. The following track tends to continue the focus on an updated Indian music sound and lyric that has a sensuous quality as it winds in a semi-chromatic line which will later be taken on by solo instruments. The music for Naan Kadavul features, if you will, some of Ilaiyaraaja’s most Indian-influenced sounds and musical ideas far nearer to the surface than in the previous discs available for review. Repetitive beats and quasi-chant lines are similar in some respects to African drumming and their minimalist interpretations. Melodic ideas have that ancient ethnic sound that finds distant cousins in the music of the Middle East as well. As with other music heard by the composer, one is never struck that these are derivative, or adapted musics, being exploited. They are part of a masterful technique uniting the various musical sounds at his disposal. At barely 26 minutes, this is a relatively short disc by most standards.
It is quite clear that Ilaiyaraaja’s respect is well-warranted. His music is immediately engaging, with a popular sensibility that gives way to detailed construction upon further exploration. Working with a variety of synthetic production, live orchestra, and fabulous singers and Indian music instrumentalists lends the music a unique quality that one discovers is part of the style of this composer. Here is someone who has discovered a way to fuse musics from multiple periods both East and West to create a sound that serves each subsequent film. There is much of the composer’s music to be explored and even with the language barrier that ultimately exists, the music is immediately communicative and often entrancing.
With access via the internet, tracking down many of these scores with the above links provided, will make it easier for the curious to hear the work of one of India’s finest composers writing music that even as it suggests Western forms has a global transcendence often missing in much of the USA’s simplistic hinting at global cultural styles.

vel

15th January 2012, 11:26 PM

It is quite clear that Ilaiyaraaja’s respect is well-warranted. His music is immediately engaging, with a popular sensibility that gives way to detailed construction upon further exploration. Working with a variety of synthetic production, live orchestra, and fabulous singers and Indian music instrumentalists lends the music a unique quality that one discovers is part of the style of this composer. Here is someone who has discovered a way to fuse musics from multiple periods both East and West to create a sound that serves each subsequent film. There is much of the composer’s music to be explored and even with the language barrier that ultimately exists, the music is immediately communicative and often entrancing.

idhai urakka solvom ulagirrkku .....

17th January 2012, 12:47 AM

baroque

17th January 2012, 04:34 AM

KV,

oh...prema devathe......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1d7iik9IZo

remember en kanavinai kel namba...... Cheran movie tune too carries the same humming/ similar tune elongations

Vinatha

vel

17th January 2012, 11:22 AM

I've been looping on this song for the last couple of days - Oh Prema Devathe from Gulabi (Kannada), sung by IR and Chitra. Another hauntingly lovely duet, possibly from the mid/late 90s. I'm not able to place what ragam this falls into. The scale seems to be S G2 M2 P D3 N3 S, S N3 D3 P M2 G2 S (or replace the G2 with R3). There doesn't appear to be a ragam with this aro/avaro. The closest match is one of Rasikapriya's janya, Ishtārangini - S R3 M2 P N3 S, S N3 D3 P M2 G3 R3 S, but this has G3 in it.
There's some resemblance to Kannammaa kaadhal ennum kavidhai solladi at some places, but Kannamma has a sure R2 in it while the Gulabi song doesn't.
When the charanam goes prema vaahini, it kinda gives a lag in the tune, but he then follows it up with a brilliant pallavi connector!

http://music.cooltoad.com/music/song.php?id=358328&PHPSESSID=b00d5df7eb0c524eca3368b14bdab6d4

Hi KV, cthis song was the first time Raaja used this rare scale - | S R2 G2 M2 P D3 N3 S | S N3 D3 P M2 G2 R2 S. As vinatha pointed out, the other two numbers following the same scale are En Kanavinai Kel Nanba from Dhesiya Geetham and Ulagame Nee Manidhanai from the film Ivan.

But i see that you have missed Rishabham in your mapping....please check on these songs again and come to a conclusion !

BTW, for the sake of easy reference, this scale is refered to as ''neethimathi'' in carnatic parlance. Dont know what would be the equivalents in thamizhisai or hindustani or even western scales.

17th January 2012, 12:06 PM

Thanks Baroque, vel. But I don't think Kanavinai and this are exactly the same scale.
Vel, I listened to the song a whole lotta times, but couldn't map R2 anywhere (like I said, G2 maybe taken as R3. I don't see any other Ri in the song).
Can you please tell me which phrase(s), in your calculation, maps to this swara?

17th January 2012, 12:34 PM

'alli sundaravalli' is a good song to show that raga name doesn't really matter for him. He can do the same, be it sahana or desh. However, in 'alli' case, I am unable to call it great even through there's catchy tune, good raga, orchestration. Something's lacking - sorry..

RR, have you listened to the Kannada version of this song by SPB (Halli laavaniyalli from Nammoora mandhaara hoove)? Needless to say that it sounds better than Arunmozhi's rendition.

baroque

17th January 2012, 10:41 PM

Ravinat put out the same kannada song , RR must have followed that composition only. All 3 are talking the same composition.

*****************************************

thanks Vel.

that's nice, there is another song from IVAN movie.
Yes, I checked out.

The humming/aalaap of the tunes, I can observe.

you think, it is neethimathi....mmmm.

I check out the raga's improvisation.

vinatha.

vel

18th January 2012, 11:10 AM

you think, it is neethimathi....mmmm.
vinatha.

vinatha, i said "for the sake of easy reference, this scale is refered to as ''neethimathi'' in carnatic parlance. Dont know what would be the equivalents in thamizhisai or hindustani or even western scales."

so it is about how a set of scale is used differently -- it is just a different way in which a set of 7 notes, called as neethimathi in carnatic world, have been used for film music. More than serving the original grammar, it is more important to see how the scale (note i am not saying raga) is used in a versatile manner, suiting the film situation.....

18th January 2012, 11:27 AM

KV, I see what you mean. Yes it's a bit better just because of SPB.

vel: It's interesting that IR went for neethimathi for such two grand orchestral works.

vel

18th January 2012, 11:28 AM

vinatha, i said "for the sake of easy reference, this scale is refered to as ''neethimathi'' in carnatic parlance. Dont know what would be the equivalents in thamizhisai or hindustani or even western scales."

so it is about how a set of scale is used differently -- it is just a different way in which a set of 7 notes, called as neethimathi in carnatic world, have been used for film music. More than serving the original grammar, it is more important to see how the scale (note i am not saying raga) is used in a versatile manner, suiting the film situation.....

vinatha -- see this video on how he wants to try new sangathis for a carnatic scale.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9i-MRO4qBHE&feature=related

a) varadha sangadhigal padunadhanal carnatic musicáanu....!
b) adhe sangadhigal bore adikkum !
c) kelvikekkaana aal venum (we need people who demand for new things....only that makes a composer get inspired)

Sureshs65

18th January 2012, 11:30 AM

vel

18th January 2012, 11:35 AM

KV, I see what you mean. Yes it's a bit better just because of SPB.

vel: It's interesting that IR went for neethimathi for such two grand orchestral works.

yes RR, 2 of the 3 times he used this scale is for social upheavals /revolutions....

vel

18th January 2012, 11:41 AM

KV / Vel,

To me, 'O Prema Devathe' has the feel of SumanesaRanjani (aka Varunapriya). Similar to 'jal jal jal salangai', the Jeyachandran / Swarnalatha(?) song. Ofcourse I too see the deviations but the pallavi and especially towards the end of pallavi the Varunapriya feel is very strong.

As usual, with Raja you can never tell. As Vel says, he has probably used a scale in a way he wants and which is logically consistent. It is just that we are unable to comprehend the logic.

Suresh, Samudhrapriya / Sumenesaranjani is | S R2 G2 M2 P N2 S | S N2 P M2 G2 R2 S - this is quite close to S R2 G2 M2 P D3 N3 S of Neethimathi. So the feel may be quite similar....(unless the D3/N3 is prominently used it may be tough to differentiate)

vel

18th January 2012, 12:04 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxEYCcD0hBk

When we discuss about IR's raga choices, please we need to keep the above videos in mind. This video tells a lot about IR's approach to composing.....

He says he has used a raga and then does not say any raga name, but says it is | S R2 M2 P D2 N3 S | S N3 D2 P M2 R2 S ...now later we need to search for this scale and name it as Saranga Tharangini -- sort of reverse engineering is called for here.....also, he does acknowledge the fact that the grammar for film music is different. When sreekumar asks for whether raja has done any bhajans, he says -- the bhajans used in film music are a totally different ball game altogether ......5:25 to 5:35 .....

vel

18th January 2012, 12:17 PM

a fanboy plug....see his knowledge of instruments, meter -- punjabi beat, marati beat......tamil temple beats.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMTI4FpjZa8

:-)

18th January 2012, 12:22 PM

Suresh, Samudhrapriya / Sumenesaranjani is | S R2 G2 M2 P N2 S | S N2 P M2 G2 R2 S - this is quite close to S R2 G2 M2 P D3 N3 S of Neethimathi. So the feel may be quite similar....(unless the D3/N3 is prominently used it may be tough to differentiate)
Vel, I don't think there's a R2 in sumanesa ranjani. Also D3/N3 is quite predominant in the song. Just watch the pallavi and the backing instrumentals.

I too can't find prominent use of R2 as KV observed. Which also explains Suresh's observation: the 'S G2 M2 P' parts lead to sumanesa ranjani feels.

vel

18th January 2012, 01:33 PM

18th January 2012, 02:11 PM

vel, could be. Needs a careful look if there's indeed rishabam.

baroque

18th January 2012, 09:35 PM

thanks Vel for the videos. I think these videos have been around the web. Remember watching them somewhere or may be at tfmpage.

I am only curious.:)

Raja in non purist platform allowed to use swarams anyway he wants, he has the musical might and imagination too:thumbsup: which is blessing for us. Raja = Music

He never claims I delivered 4 pahadies, 5 behags with some flute counterpoints etc..

We are only awe struck by his ideas.

en kanavinai kel nanba.... is fantastic composition with outstanding orchestration, wonderful job by Cheran too.

please continue.... on awesome tunes

vinatha.

Sureshs65

18th January 2012, 10:53 PM

'Bagyadevatha' appeared in 2009? I think so. This is one outstanding beauty from that film. Everything about this song carries a stamp of class. The tune, the orchestration, the chorus, the singers. As I said, everything :) A very heart warming melody.

Now comes the question, which ragam is this based on. I thought it was probably 'Pahadi'. I remember vaguely thumburu also saying the same when this movie was released. ( I could be wrong here.) Some places I do hear Pahadi but some of my friends who are into Hindustani music say that this is not 'Pahadi' and as usual they can't tell me what raga it is. Not that we will enjoy this beauty any less but will be nice to see the analysis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCv9H2zwWnI

baroque

18th January 2012, 11:01 PM

swapnangal kannezhuthiya.... gives pahadi feel.

Indian cinema has given some mighty pahadies.

enakkum onnum illai pesarathukku indha paadalil....
:)

you continue...
As a family we liked the movie. Of course, Sathyan anthikkad's simple, homely movie with no out of control drama acting. Simple acting.
Nice picturisation of this song.
Sathyan with Jayaram, his mother role is a good one. kanika was good too.:)

IC- 2009 gave some good movies like 3 idiots, Vennila kabadi kuzhoo etc..

Vinatha.

vel

19th January 2012, 12:12 PM

Vel, I don't think there's a R2 in sumanesa ranjani. Also D3/N3 is quite predominant in the song. Just watch the pallavi and the backing instrumentals.

I too can't find prominent use of R2 as KV observed. Which also explains Suresh's observation: the 'S G2 M2 P' parts lead to sumanesa ranjani feels.

hi RR, KV,

i tried the gULABI song this morning -- R2 is used in the charanams (after the first line tune that is repeated twice....the couple of lines following that use R2)

Even in the desiya geetham song, there is a predominant S G2 jump, skipping the R2....but it also has clearly marked R2 in many other lines.....there is lesser ambiguity there.....

Also RR, sumenesaranjani/madhukauns does not have R2. This link explains madhukauns, sumanesaranjani difference - http://www.carnatica.net/queryinquiry.htm ...it says ""The Carnatic counterpart for this raga (madhukauns) happens to be Sumanesaranjani, which of course has Suddha Madhyama in the Avarohana. The scale for this raga is: S G2 M2 P N2 S - S N2 P M2 G2 M1…. G2 S (With a slight oscillation of M1)....

19th January 2012, 01:52 PM

Hi Vel,
I'm still not able to place the R2 in it (will check it out at home again), but yes this scale is closer to Sumanasaranjani (kannammaa kaadhal and Mouname nenjil naalum, but these two songs, I think, have R2 in them!) And the Gulabi song also has D3 in it, which kinda differentiates it from SRanjani.
Nammala kuzhappi vidradhe ivar vElaya pOchu. Raasappu, enna velayaattu idhu? :evil:

19th January 2012, 09:41 PM

Suresh,

swapnangal is a toughie. On the song per se, chandrabimbathin is miles ahead in comparision. Rahul also
sounded good in the latter.

Sureshs65

19th January 2012, 09:50 PM

RR,

Honestly I wouldn't be able to pick between these two. Both are excellent in their own way, with 'Swapanangal' touching the heart a bit more.

20th January 2012, 01:18 AM

Alright, here goes… tried a rough mapping of swaras in Prema Devathe.

Pallavi

Oh prema devathe, Priya raaga devathe
Sa ni Sa da pa pa, Sa Sa ni-Ga-Sa da pa pa

Ilaya ramiso alaye ninage
pa pa ma-pa ma pa ma ga ga ma pa da ma pa ma ga

prema yaaga geetha ragaanjali
sa pa ma pa ga ma sa ga ni sa

aathma yaaga raaga geethaanjali
sa pa ma pa ga ma sa ga ni sa

Charanam

Malligaya mele manmathana leele
sa ga ma pa Sa-ni-da-ni-Sa-Sa ni Sa ni pa pa-ma-ga-pa-pa

chorus: noduvaaga modhavo kalidaasa kaavyavo
gapamapa-gapamapa ga sa sa gapamapa-gapamapa ga sa sa

chandhanadha baale chelukidhe neele
sa ga ma pa Sa-ni-da-ni-Sa-Sa ni Sa da pa pa-ma-ga-pa-pa

chorus: gapamapa-gapamapa ga sa sa gapamapa-gapamapa ga sa sa

Neere neere minugo thaare
pa da da pa-da-pa-ma-pa-da-da ga ma pa da Ga Ri2 da

needu baara dhinugo saara
pa da da pa-da-pa-ma-pa-da-da ga ma pa da da Ga Ri2 da

prema vaahini aatma roopini
da Ga Ri2 da-da-ni da Ga Ri2 da-da-ni

prema vele geethe maale jeeva vaahini
da1 da1 ni ni Sa Sa da3 da3 pa pa ma ga ma pa
Vel, you’re right, R2 appears in two lines in Charanams, but it looks like an anya swaram because it’s nowhere else in the song. D3, on the other hand, appears in many places in the song and to me it should be part of the scale.
(And of course, the charanam-pallavi connector should be ideally discounted while determining an IR song's raga, because this is where the man brings in his syncopation mastery most of the times!)

Hence this:
S G2 M2 P D3 N3 S S N3 D3 P M2 G2 S

Listing the aro/avaro from wiki of ragas we’ve touched upon so far for this song:
Sumanasaranjani S G2 M2 P N2 S S N2 P M2 G2 S
Varunapriyaa S R2 G2 M1 P D3 N3 S S N3 D3 P M1 G2 R2 S
Neethimathi S R2 G2 M2 P D3 N3 S S N3 D3 P M2 G2 R2 S

Now, Sumanasaranjani uses N2, but this song uses N3. Varuapriya uses M1, while here it’s M2. While Neethimathi seems the closest (of course, with that sparsely used R2, it does fully map to Neethimathi) almost all phrases in the song use S to G2 jumps without any traces of R2. We could probably consider this some unlisted Janya of Neethimathi. Or map the G2 as R3 and consider this an unlisted janya of Rasikapriya.

20th January 2012, 01:31 AM

porumaya spacing ellaam kuduththu post pannEn. Inga paatha :mad:

San_K

20th January 2012, 01:36 AM

porumaya spacing ellaam kuduththu post pannEn. Inga paatha :mad:

Edit your post and try with Courier Font

20th January 2012, 01:49 AM

vEnaam... aludhuruven...

V_S

20th January 2012, 02:11 AM

skr

20th January 2012, 10:32 AM

KV , lovely writeup of the swara notations , will try playing this song

V_S
Yes , you are right , there is more confusion when it comes to Ga and Ni as compared to Ri and Da .
I generally know the swaras immediately as i listen to the song , but have the problem of bifurcating further.
For eg ill surely know its Ni , but wont be sure if its Ni2 or Ni3

What im doing now is , " I try humming the tune and then relate it with a popular song which i know has 'which Ni or Da etc' and try to match it based on that.
May not be always right 100 % , but this deductive mechanism has been useful at times for me :)
Ogcourse , the other alternative is playing it on the keyboard and checking for the exact notes.

skr

20th January 2012, 11:04 AM

Tried finding out the Raagams of all the songs in Mayilu
This is what i think they are , please correct me if i am wrong

Namalodu Puthandu - Harikambodhi

Yathea - Keeravani

Kalayanama Kalyanama - Sindhu Bhairavi (im little confused here)

Aadhissoka - Dont know , maybe Natabhairavi or Keeravani (keep hearing both the Nis)

Thukkamenna Thuyaramenna - Natabhairavi (though the other Da2 keeps alternating from time to time )

Enna Kutham - Thodi

20th January 2012, 11:31 AM

KV :clap:

skr, You must have excellent swara gyaanam! I'm curious to know more about your method of finding swaras by relating to popular song.

V_S: finding the notes with, say keyboard, is easy, but deciphering D3 or N2 and sometimes even shatjam is non-trivial. Guess we go by experience.

vel

20th January 2012, 12:29 PM

KV, Superb! Thanks for the complete swara notation. Wonderful :clap: Very good as an educational purpose. Thank you! Question not relevant to this topic, still want to ask, if I may. Sometimes (no many times), I find it difficult to distinguish between say ni, ni2 and ni3, sameway di, d2 and d3, especially d2 and d3 or ni2 or ni3. How do you guys find that out? Just by singing or by playing on any instrument? I know playing instrument would be easy enough, but just wanted to know. You guys are doing a great job!

V_S, it is easier with an instrument....but with some IR songs, there are cases while your ear wonders whether the note is neither a Ni3 nor Ni2 but is somewhere in between ! Finding notes by singing is tough !

KV -- happy you found the Ri2....appreciate your hard work in posting all the notes.....instead of complicating that it is some neethimathi janya sans the Ri2, why not just simply say it is neethimathi with scant Ri2 :-)

vel

20th January 2012, 12:46 PM

While discussing on raga choices, we should also keep in mind how there could a western music persective on top of all these raga layers. That makes all our analysis even more inadequate to be able to pass judgements since we are only seeing half the picture. We are not seeing the complete picture at all ! Below are some western scales and their equivalent carnatic ragas: (info courtsey Violin Vicky, Tn Arunagiri, Gopi, Sripathy Ramesh)

1.Diatonic Major – Shankarabharanam
2.Diatonic Minor – Natabhairavi
3.Harmonic Major – Sarasaangi
4.Harmonic Minor – Keeravani
5.Melodic Major – Chaarukesi
6.Melodic minor – Ascending is Gowrimanohari and Descending is Natabhairavi.
7.Double Harmonic Major – Mayamalawagowlai
8.Double Harmonic Minor – Simmendhramadhyamam
9. Major Pentatonic Scale: Mohanam
10. Minor Pentatonic Scale: Sudha Dhanyasi
11. Blues scale -- Minor Pentatonic with Ma2 --ex: if Sudha dhanyasi is Sa Ga ma Pa Ni Sa. Blues is Sa ga Ma1 Ma2 Pa Ni Sa. Ga and Ni are Eb and Bb in C for example.
12. Whole Tone Scale is like C D E F# G# A# C in a C shruthi thing for example. The interval between one note and the next note is always a tone(2 semitones).
13. Chromatic Scale is C C# D D# E F F# G G# A A# B and C. All 12 notes in a scale from C to C for example.

The seven modes of western music

Ionian - C to C - All White Keys - Sankaraparanam
Dorian - D to D - All White keys - Karaharapriya
Phrygian - E to E - All White Keys - Thodi
Lydian - F to F - All White Keys - Kalyani
MixoLydian - G to G - All White keys - Harikhamboji
Aeolian - A to A - All White Keys - Natabhairavi
Locrian - B to B - All White Keys - Thodi with Ma2 instead of Pa

I am not equipped to comment on these western aspects. I am zapped to even know such details exist. Seen in this context, how many more dimensions there are to IR's music ? And how ill-equipped and incomplete would it sound if someone knowing just carnatic or vice versa someone (knowing only western) make reviews on a song !!

While i could a brush aside a natabhairavi song as being cliched, that song may talk a different language to a person knowing western music -- Aeolian - A to A - All White Keys - Natabhairavi !!!

vel

20th January 2012, 01:29 PM

20th January 2012, 01:58 PM

Thanks, all :). Hope it's readable! (RR, just curious, is there no way to retain original spacing while posting?)
V_Sji, mine's the same case as the others here, using an instrument. Vocal-laye exact Ni/Ri etc pudikkardhu appatakkars vonly possible.
Vel, thanks for sharing the WCM stuff... very informative :clap:. And we're not trying to judge the man or his music here. Aaruvaththa pagundhukkarom, avalo dhaan. :)

Sureshs65

20th January 2012, 03:34 PM

Nice discussion going on. For my part, I can make out a raga, if it is in carnatic format that is, without mapping to any song. But I cannot make out the swaras. I need to try hard and I generally don't :) If I try, sometimes I get it but many times I don't. So on the safer side I stay away from this saying I can get the feel of a raga but I swara challenged.

Sureshs65

20th January 2012, 04:12 PM

Continuing raga choices of Raja further, here are some songs which are not confusing :) Atleast the overall mood tells us in the three cases I list the ragam is Mohanam (maybe an anya swara may creep in but for most part it is Mohanam.)

I have been fascinated by the fact that Raja chooses Mohanam for situations which can be deemed as funny. Generally Mohanam is used for melodies and soft and slow ones at that. Raja also has used Mohanam in this mode but in recent past he has been exploring other possibilities with Mohanam. Let me state that the recent songs were not hits and I am sure people will not term them 'hits' or 'classics'. I am not even sure how many would like them in the first place. Yet for me these are fascinating because of the way Raja deals with this ancient raga.

The first song was probably quite popular in those days. From the movie 'Maharasan', (1993). This is based on Mohanam. I haven't seen the movie but the words suggest a comic situation, especially the second charanam. The orchestration is also done that way. The way the tabla starts the charanam, the short flute bits and the overall way the rhythm keeps changing all aid the comic situation, I would guess. The orchestration is the 'tradition' Raja with shenai, flutes and violins.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-c7jjHtgjcY

Let's now hear another song from the Telugu film 'Mallepuvvu'. Sung by Tipu, this again based on Mohanam. The situation seems to be about a tea seller selling his tea. The pun is on the word 'tea'. Words which end with 'tee' are mixed with 'tea' to give a funny song. Raja uses mridangam in between and the kalpanaswaras to add to the situation. A nice Mohanam infact but didn't catch the fancy of many because it was used in such a situation.

http://www.raaga.com/player4/?id=96119&mode=100&rand=0.4264131882227957

The next song is from the Malayalam movie 'Sooriyan'. Though I don't understand Malayalam much right from the prelude you can make out this song is for some funny situation. The violins in the first interlude and the lovely guitar and veena dialog in the second interlude, the mridangam accompaniment, the way the guitar is played, everything is used to again give a good platform for the director to picturise this situation well.

http://www.raaga.com/player4/?id=68465&mode=100&rand=0.12858448596671224

Again a song which should have been more famous but lost due to the movie being a major flop. 'Sooryan' was probably a 2007 release and 'Mallepuvvu' a 2008 release. So as I have been claiming the experiments continue :)

skr

20th January 2012, 05:59 PM

RR ,
Whenever i get a doubt regarding Ri Ga Da Ni,i hum the doubt song and a popular song say Katril Endhan Geetham which i know is in Keeravani and has D1 and N3.
Will try to see if i could do a mapping as to whether its the same D1 or N3 in the doubt song and then try to match accordingly.
However the easier way is just trying out on a keyboard. This may come handy when you dont have a instrument with you .

Vel ,
I have heard Mayilu songs only online . I enquired in Landmark , Nungambakkam . They said its not available and is expected today.
However i believe its available here and i will get it tomorrow
Rahavendra musicals
#17/7 station road,
west maambalam,
chennai-33
PH: 044-24745878
Contact person : Murugan
CELL : 9941426212 & 9381021538

vel

20th January 2012, 06:15 PM

RR,

Honestly I wouldn't be able to pick between these two. Both are excellent in their own way, with 'Swapanangal' touching the heart a bit more.

Hi Suresh, RR, Vinatha --i think swapnangal is pahadi with some sivaranjani touches in charanams. To understand why would he mix those scales, one would need to understand the film situation better.

skr

20th January 2012, 06:23 PM

Btw coming to Oh Prema Devathe , i too concur with Kv
The Ri2 is hardly there . In the Pallavi it is not at all there and there is just a strand of it during the interludes and Charanam.
I feel its just an alien note and so dont feel its Neethimathi
I also feel there is a Graha Bedham happening during the place Prema Vahini at 02:40 where the notes are heard as Pa Sa Ni2 Pa Pa Da2 , i feel the shift takes place at Ga2 where the Ga2 is made to look like the Sa , but as Kv has pointed out the notes are played as da Ga2 Ri2 da-da-ni

The structure goes along the lines Sa Ga2 Ma2 Pa Da3 Ni3 Sa | Sa Ni3 Da3 Pa Ma3 Ga2 Sa
Searching in Wiki Janya List , there is not a single raaga having this structure :)
Whatever the raga is , there is no denying that this is an outstanding number.

skr

20th January 2012, 06:24 PM

Vel and others ,
Why is Pahaadi and Mohanam always confusing ?

vel

20th January 2012, 06:25 PM

Hi Suresh, RR, Vinatha --i think swapnangal is pahadi with some sivaranjani touches in charanams. To understand why would he mix those scales, one would need to understand the film situation better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5jmSxLvkO4

-- on similar lines this rickshaw mama song (1992) is pahadi with the sivaranjani touches......

Sureshs65

20th January 2012, 06:25 PM

skr,

I am not too sure if 'en kutham' can be classified as Todi. I think the initial portions do have a touch of the Todi scale (not the raga I would say). The two lines from 'vellimanal' in the charanam seems to clearly be SindhuBhairavi. It again changes. A small piece which is played on mandolin (I think) gives me a feeling that Raja has used a middle eastern mode. It may be that the whole melody will adhere to a middle eastern scale. (My blog plug and reference: A ragam similar to Todi played in Azerbaijan: http://sureshs65music.blogspot.com/2011/03/azerbaijani-thodi.html

20th January 2012, 08:34 PM

skr

20th January 2012, 08:44 PM

Suresh ,
I think you could be right with En Kutham.
I thought its Thodi coz i felt the song seems to have only the Ri1 throughout. But like you said , it seems to have a stronger Sindhu Bhairavi flavour.
Nice to listen to the Azerbaijani Thodi once again :)

V_S

20th January 2012, 08:53 PM

Thank you guys for giving some valuable tips on identifying the swaras. You guys are amazing! :clap: Wonderful discussions :thumbsup:

I know some 25-30 raagams and a reference (krithi, or an old song or IR song) song in each raagam. If they happens to cross I am lucky, but I know it is a very crude way of identifying raagams. Just wanted to know a better way to identify the raagams and the swaras. It seems, I will have to start trying on my keyboard (little lazy to do that) rather than the above method. Generally, the beauty in the tune and the feel are the one which captures me the most, followed by orchestration. While I admire these two aspects, I forget the other things like raagam. Need to expand my horizons. Thanks again for the valuable tips.

San_K

20th January 2012, 09:18 PM

app_engine

20th January 2012, 10:55 PM

just curious to know, ippo etho oru kavithaiyai summa ittukatti raagathoda (??!!!) paadina athu oru raagathula irukkumar illa kenathanama irukkuma? I think some MDs (?) may be doing like this

Sorry for this kenathanama kelvi :lol:

I don't think this is a kEnaththanamAna kostin. Me too have the same doubt (and a novice assumption as answer also :oops:).

With 7 (+5 sharp / flat) per octave alone, you have tremendous permutations / combinations, especially if you consider the fact that there is practically no limit to the "bar". For e.g, take this peculiar word "supercalifragilisticexpialidocious" (a song from Mary Poppins), that has around 15 syllables, on theory can be assigned 15 notes and that makes, again by simple arith, 15*12 (ok 15*7 at least) combinations. While most of them may not be pleasant to listen - regardless of the tempo changes or octave changes, they are possibilities and by IR's theory of 'nAi kuRaikkiRadhum isai dhAn', they are "music".

However, not many of them can fall under the "defined swara combos" of scales or rAgAs. There may be technical terms in musical grammar to explain them (foreign note, bEdham etc) but the simple novice conclusion of mine is "not all mettukkaL will conform to a known rAgam".

app_engine

20th January 2012, 11:01 PM

Also, going by IR's statement on 'mayilE mayilE' - "சுத்தமான ஹம்சத்வனி ராகத்தில் அமைந்த பாடல்" , there are 100's of songs out there that are not "சுத்தம்" but "அசுத்தம்" if one goes strictly by rAgA conformity alone :-)

Sureshs65

21st January 2012, 12:05 AM

San_K / app,

What app says is true. If you just put some mettu, it may not be in any known raga or people may not accept it as a raga at all :) I would say people will accept what you put if there is some consistency in it. What it means is certain phrases should be used certain times consistently. Then, not worrying about the raga, you will get a pleasant melody. A lot of music grammar in India has come about post facto. Ragas like 'anadhabhairavi', 'yadhukula kambhoji' etc were part of folk tradition. Later the grammarians tried fitting their grammar. But we must also understand that without a grammar being written down, people were singing Anadhabhairavi consistently. Much of why only 12 notes in an octave and why not more has to do with aesthetics. Any division more than 12 may not be pleasing to the ear. Hence get the slots assigned and then you can so slightly off these slots and give a different feel altogether.

Sureshs65

21st January 2012, 12:10 AM

What makes Raja uses of raagas and his experimentation is the extraordinary consistency that he gets. If he is introducing new notes into a melody, it will done in the same phrases throughout the song. I once had a discussion with Raj (who has two Raja blogs) about this saying that it is futile trying to find out and name some of the raagas that Raja uses. Raj pointed out that while it was true, the consistency is amazing. It is as if Raja has written his own grammar and adhering to it. And as Vel says, he also adheres, simultaneously to the grammar of WCM, rock and jazz. So we can at most see one or two sides of what he does. As our knowledge widens we see more. But the truth is, even without knowledge of these musical elements, if a person is a keen listener, he can clearly understand that something extraordinary is going on in these songs.

21st January 2012, 01:34 PM

As IR would ask, "What do you mean by raga, mettu, or scale?" :)

How you answer this dictates the answer to your question. Carnatic/hindustani musicians would say for XYZ raga, 'this swara shd follow this, but not that', 'this phrase is a must, and this is a strict-no', 'this swara must be sung this way', etc. They will claim this is not just for reeti gowla, yathukula kambhoji (where if you deviate even a little, the raga shape is lost, and you yourself will have difficulty claiming), but for more free-er ragas like mohanam,hindolam as well. Film MD's were of this opinion too during MKT/PUC days. But mellisai came in to be accepted, and all got blurred. After western influences got stronger, this got 'worse'. Now I don't think any strict carnatic purist accepts ANY film song as 'follows xyz raga'. At best can say 'raga-based' or 'raga-inspired'. (This is based on my chats with some of current-day carnatic artists. ) I also think some of them got so upset with filmy songs that they take a bit too far and always look for faults even in some sincere film songs. MD's of course know this, so when they say 'i used kanada in this song', they mean this (more mature MD's will just keep quiet and let the fans tear their hair out looking for raga :lol: ), but carnatic purists still get upset just seeing the word raga mentioned. :) Have to mention the other gang too, i.e. some md's claiming 'i've composed an excellent harikambhoji' by just using the scale, which clearly makes the purists furious/laugh. For more, I point you to Lakshminarayanan's Classical IR aticles (http://tfmpage.com/ci/) where he discusses this topic a lot.

vel

21st January 2012, 04:56 PM

If we want the same grammar verbatim, then the only rasa (emotion) that can be covered in a film is bakthi rasa (devotion). Because 99% of all the carnatic keerthanais are based on the bakthi emotion. That was the case with most of the devotional themes that was covered in black and white films. But people increasingly wanted love, action, humour, and all navarasas from film music. The bakthi rasa grammar of keerthanais need to be tweaked to find a new grammar that has to be cooked. And only when one is fully well versed in existing grammar (carnatic) can someone improvise a new grammar version (film music or other pop genres). As suresh said, it does seem as if raaja has his own rule book that still keeps the purists most happy !

skr

21st January 2012, 05:15 PM

RR ,
A small eg of the swara mapping i was talking about by relating to a popular song.

I heard this latest number Yathea from 'Mayilu'
http://soundcloud.com/devinth/yaathe-yaathe-from-mayilu
Listen to the Annupallavi part from 01:43 "Usurum Usurum Onnachu
The notes go Pa Da Sa , Ni Da , Pa Pa Pa Da
Now the confusion as to which Da and Ni.

Now listen to Katril Endhan Geetham from 'Jhonny', esp the Annupallavi from Anbulla Nenjai Kaanadho which appears at 02:08
http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR1281'&lang=en
The notes go Pa Da , Sa Ni Ni ~, Da Pa Ma ~ , Pa Da Sa Ni , Ni ~ ~ ~
Here i know its Da1 and Ni3 following the Keeravani scale.

Now you try to hum the Yathea portion and then the Kaatril Endhan Geetham , you would find a connection and arrive that it also has Da1 and Ni3.
However easier said than done , but try both the parts and see , you might just be able to arrive at a similarity :)

Sureshs65

22nd January 2012, 02:11 PM

I had earlier pointed to the Sivaranjani from 'Rasathantram'. Here is another one he did very recently. This underrated melody from 'Azhagarsamiyin Kudhirai' is based on Sivaranjani and differs from 'manjal poosum' and 'ponnavani paadam' in its own charming way. Raja keeps the orchestration at a minimum and lets the melody carry the song along. Unlike 'ponnavani paadam' where the rhythm structure keeps up the tempo, here the rhythm is 'light' and it is the main melody which keeps the interest alive. Again it surprises me how Raja can take a 'small' raga like Sivaranjani and come up with so many variations!! This is a very heart warming song. Karthik and especially Shreya, do a nice job.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cK5078ByXYY&feature=related

Sureshs65

22nd January 2012, 11:34 PM

Continuing our tryst with Sivaranjani, here is another one from the Telugu film 'Shiv Shankar'. Once more, Raja ensures you are not reminded of his other songs. The rhythm is quite different. Tippu and Shreya sing this. I think Shiv Shnakr came out in the early part of first decade.

http://www.raaga.com/player4/?id=17028&mode=100&rand=0.8860641278995268

Sureshs65

23rd January 2012, 12:20 PM

A lovely writeup by Raj on Raja's use of the raga Chandrajyoti: http://rajamanjari.blogspot.com/2012/01/ilaiyaraaja-luminous-musician.html

V_S

23rd January 2012, 10:40 PM

This underrated melody from 'Azhagarsamiyin Kudhirai' is based on Sivaranjani
Suresh ji, Excellent insight on poove keLu. If a song like Poova KeLu is becoming underrated, I am not sure what else Maestro can do to appease the listeners. This composition is like a 'kurinji malar' which is very rare. I can only pity Maestro rather than the listeners, for showing them a better way to listen music, while they are adamantly choosing the other way.

23rd January 2012, 11:23 PM

A lovely writeup by Raj on Raja's use of the raga Chandrajyoti: http://rajamanjari.blogspot.com/2012/01/ilaiyaraaja-luminous-musician.html
Whattay songu! :shock: Paavini itself is obscure in the first place, going a step further to compose in it's janya? Yennama I-thinku pannreenga saar!
Btw, some serious treasure digging happening there in the blog! :clap:

23rd January 2012, 11:31 PM

One of my favorite Sivaranjinis... Ennena paada paduthuraan (http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR0058'&lang=en) (Aandaan adimai, 2001). The tune, the flutes, the violins, the keys... terrific would be an understatement. There's some scale change that happens with the Veena's entry in the 1st interlude I think, but the song otherwise seems to be fully in Sivaranjini.

Sureshs65

24th January 2012, 10:19 AM

V_S,

Yes. That's why I pity people who are unable to hear Raja. I mean, this is right in front of you and you don't even know what you are missing!!!

Sureshs65

24th January 2012, 10:20 AM

KV,

Raj's blog has lots of very rare songs. You can also check his other blog, which is also dedicated to Raja.

Sureshs65

24th January 2012, 06:39 PM

KV,

That is a super Sivaranjani indeed. The surprising part is that Sivaranjani is supposed to be a melancholic raga and is generally used in slow love melodies or sad songs. Raja goes ahead and uses this ragam for all situations!! 'ennenna paadaai paduthiraan' is an excellent example of his lateral thinking. Thanks for pointing to this song.

Sureshs65

24th January 2012, 07:01 PM

Let us take another ragam which Raja has used effectively in the 80s and again used it with equal effectiveness in late 90s and 2000s. Before proceeding further, let me say this is not one raga but actually two ragas :) For me all these melodies sound very much like Hansanadam but people like Violin Vicky have argued that some of these songs are in Saranga Tharangini ragam. Thiraipaadal also lists them as Saranga Tharangini. To my ears, which have never heard Saranga Tharangini in classical music, these sound very close to Hamsanadham. So let me call these songs as being in Hansanadham / Saranga Tharangini.

Raja was ofcourse the pioneer when it comes to getting Hamsanadham into film music. (As with many other ragas as well). 'thenral vandhu ennai thodu' was the first one to hit us hard. A stunning debut for Hamsanadham into film music. Then there was 'Om Namaha' from Geetanjanli (Telugu) and 'Sorgame Enraalum'. Each a gem in its own right. These were in the 80s. Then till late 90s I don't think Hamsanadham made its appearance.

In 1997 came the movie, whose music I still consider one of the best in Indian Film Music history, especially in terms of orchestration. 'Guru' was the name of the Malayalam movie. It had a lovely Hamsanandhi /ST song, 'minnaram manathu' sung by Sujatha. Right from the prelude it has class written all over it. Be it the chapu of the mridangam, the violins, the bass that follows all the while, the flute which comes in once a while.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGFv9qev98g

In the 200s came another song in the same raga(s) and many consider it one of the songs of the first decade of this century. L Subramaniam fell out with Kamal during the making of 'Hey Ram', which left Kamal with no option but to approach Raja. And in a way it was our luck because Raja created this outstanding gem. Summoning Ajoy Chakravarthy from up North, Raja would weave magic, the likes of which are only possible for a magician like him. Starting with those thundering drums, 'isayil thodangudhamma', with its energetic melody, lovely use of chorus and the enormous amount of energy the rhythm section generates, the shenoy interludes quickly became an all time favorite of many people. There is almost no singing competition in which this is not sung. An outstanding composition in every sense of the word. Even among his great compositions in this ragam, this one stands tall

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ox0gJGCasZc&feature=related

Raja also tuned a devotional song in this ragam sung by Bombay Jayashree for the Ramana Geetham devotional album. This is a more traditional tuning in keeping with the nature of the album. 'Sree Matrubutheswari' :

http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs=%27SNGIRR1051%27&lang=en

vel

25th January 2012, 04:54 PM

25th January 2012, 08:56 PM

Suresh,

I think you can add suddha sarang also to the mix and make it a 3 member family. Most of the hamsanadham songs have a mixed flavours of all the three. Nevertheless, the final effect is fantastic - thendral vandhu for the wonderful 'ludes' and 'isaiyil' for ajoy's vocal acrobatics (besides the great melody).

Sureshs65

25th January 2012, 10:00 PM

Thanks Vel for the video link. I wanted to post it but thought my post was already too long :) Sreekumar struggles in it.

RR: Honestly I haven't heard much Suddha Sarang. But as you say the final effect is always fantastic.

csramasami

27th January 2012, 06:01 PM

This has reference to the earlier posting by KV (#61 at page 7 of this thread) regarding raga of "Chandrabimbathin".

After fully repeating the song in keyboard of the melody song part (excluding the harmony/chords point of view), I fully endorse the views of KV viz. (a) the Swara mapping as S G3 M1 P D2 N2 S and S N2 D2 P M1 G3 S (b) elimination of Sriranjani (c) not in agreement with Madhyama Shruthi based song etc etc.

As I hear, tha scale starts in F, with F-A-Bb-C-D-Eb-F with G totally missing (meaning a harikhamboji based raga with Ri missing). IR has given umpteen number of songs with this Ri omission, like Kootathile Kovil Pura etc. The "Ponnil Vanam" song also follows the same scale but somehow, gives the feeling of different dimensions (of course not like khamaas).

I doubt, requirement of chord/harmony formation, will necessitate to shift the Shadjam from F to C, because there are numerous cases of Carnatic Ragas with various missing swaraas, where IR has treated with chords using the other equivalents or even using the missing swaras.

Coming to name of raga, while Pravritti as mentioned by KV is coming under 16th mela, I find the "karnATaka khamaas" which follows the same swaras is coming under 28th Mela appears to be logically correct, according to me. This raga name I found in the kARNATIC web site. Again, unfortunately, I am unable to get any Carnatic song equivalent in karanAtaka khamaas, to verify.

Similarly, another song from Kolangal "Mouna Ragam" appears to follow the scale of "karnATka Suddha Saveri".

I hope discussions may be revived about these songs also in this thread, to showcase IR's new raga choices.

28th January 2012, 03:31 PM

CSR,

that's a good guess! I did notice D2 but is it prominent in aarohanam? Will be good if you can post the full notes of the song. (You can just post a screenshot if there's formatting issues.)

csramasami

28th January 2012, 04:53 PM

Let me try RR. Here we go.

S G3 M1 P D2 N2 S - F G A Bb C D Eb F – karnATaka khamAs (??)

(Format problem is there.
All B & E are flats and appear here as Bb , Eb
Also, hope that one can guess & make out the difference between different sthayi of swaras based on the song progression as I am unable to differentiate with underscore or bar etc. )

PALLAVI

Chandra bimbathin chantham chinthum
FEbEb FABb CBbBbA AFFEb

nanda vrindaava nam
EbF EbFEb DC

Antha rangathi limpam vempum
FEbEb FABb CBbBbA AFFEb

raasa keleera vam
EbF EbFEb DC

Udaya kirana kana mo o
EbFA EbFA EbFA Bb

uthirum amrutha jala mo
ABbC ABbC ABb- CDC

Izhuki yaliyum unar vaa yo
EbFA EbFA EbFA Bb

vidarum adhara puda dalamathi lidariyum
ABbC ABbC ABb- CEbDC BbAFEb

(Chandrabimbathin chantham chinthum nanda vrindaavanam ..ah ha ha
Antharangathilimpam vempum raasa keleeravam)

CHARANAM

Kaalthala kingini aramani yilakiya
CBbA FEbFA CBbA FEbFA

neela megha varnnan
CBb CBb CCA

Ara yaal-mara shaakhayil chelakal thookkiya
CBbA FEbFA CBbA FEbFA

Raga lola roopan
CBb CBb CCA

Anthima yangiya gokkalma dangiya
CCCEb DEbCC BbDCBb AFABb

neramitha vanevi de
CCCF EbCCCBbCBbA

Anthi mayangiya gokkal madangiya
CCCEb DEbCC BbDCBb AFABb

neramitha vanevide
CCCF EbCCCBbCBbA

Koncha baalya mevide mrugamadama
CDEb CDEb CDEb F EbCAF

manthra sangeethavum
DFA BbD EbFEbD

Koncha baalya mevide mrugamadama
CDEb CDEb CDEb F EbCAF

manthra sangeethavum
DFA BbD EbFEbD

Aaru mo raathe
DEb FEb EbCC

Ulli laa mayil
ABb CA AFF

peeli thedunnu njaan
DEb FBbA FEbD

( Chandrabimbathin chantham chinthum nanda vrindaavanam ..ah ha ha
Antharangathilimpam vempum raasa keleeravam )

csramasami

28th January 2012, 04:55 PM

The penultimate & last lines of Charanam are killer phrases of the song with covering nearly two octaves with beautiful forward & backward broken chords like phrases. Pure Divine experience.

V_S

29th January 2012, 01:39 AM

csr sir,
Great to see you here. Thanks to Maestro and KV. Wonderful analysis. :clap: You all are dissecting the song to the core, wow! Thanks for the western notes. One basic question. I never thought there can be two raagams for the same set of notes (swaras). If all the notes (arohanam/avarohanam) are same and also assuming karnataka kamas and Pravritti belong to carnatic family of raagas (I know there are called differently in hindustani for the same set of swaras), why are they called out differently here?. Any other parameter needs to be looked upon? I know this is silly, but wanted to know, if you can please explain. Also, please come here often and share your thoughts.

csramasami

29th January 2012, 02:48 PM

V_S (the great scenic-writer):

I used the western notation because, it is an absolute system and can avoid confusions that can prevail in the Sargam notations which is a relative system. (since already the SriRanjani Vs other raga issues have cropped up for this song based on different perceptions of which shall be the Sa)

Regarding the other query from you : Why two raga names with same swaras ?

If that’s your query, the possible answers are -

(1) If the two sets in consideration, are denoting two different ragams (even though the swarams may be same, for example, Sindhu Bairavi & Thodi, the phrases and usage patterns are different), then there may be two different names.

(2) When the parent mela ragas are different from which these are derived, then the names may be different. (Whenever, one ore two swaras are dropped from the parent raga, names of many possible parent crops up, and thus to differentiate, the names might have been different

(3) Considering another instance, that these two ragas are identical in all respect, swarams, raga bhavams etc etc, still the names may be different, because of the documentation system followed by two different set of peoples, in two different time periods, or even following two different system of fundamentals - one system with 12 musical notes and another with 16 musical notes to select the 7 (or less notes) to form the raga. (in this case even our notation of D2, D3 etc may go wrong)

In our current discussion, whether Pravritti or Karnataka khamas, we have no knowledge or previous carnatic examples for these ragams, to depend upon and pinpoint the correct one.

What we have are, a lot of IR songs with the swarams listed as above and guessing the name from the index available in the internets (whose authenticity itself not fully known to us)

Hope, I have not confused you. (I have only put my registered confusions to others!)

V_S

29th January 2012, 10:15 PM

Thank you very much sir for the detailed explanation and also for your kind words. :smile: Yes, now I got it, your third point answered my question very well. Thank again!

Sureshs65

30th January 2012, 12:24 AM

V_S,

Pardon me for the self plug but in my most recent article on Hindustani Aarabhi I have made some comments about two ragas having same swaras but differing. You can check it here: http://sureshs65music.blogspot.com

V_S

30th January 2012, 01:08 AM

Suresh ji,
Can't believe my question was already answered in your article. It seems you read my mind. :wink: So, the landing note 'Nyasa Swara' makes the difference. Wonderful article with digging out these marvellous treasures. Without your article, I would not have known Hirabhai Barodekar, thank you! :smile: I also took the opportunity to listen to that African brindavana saranga, that man's hand is so fluent on guitar with laughing and looking around, but not one note slipped.wow! Unbelievable!!

Sureshs65

31st January 2012, 08:33 PM

Thanks V_S. I have crossed 50 songs in my series. So you can dig around. You will find some nice treasures there.

Getting back to our raga topic, in this clip of a contestant singing 'sree rama lera', SPB says that 'Sree Rama Lera' is basically Panthuvarali. He also hums the pallavi of 'rojavai thaalatum thendral' :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p21ErhJnbVc

Sureshs65

31st January 2012, 08:35 PM

/dig

V_S,

That guy playing the Brindavana Saranga is just too good. Supposed to be a well known figure in the jazz circles.

/End Dig

V_S

1st February 2012, 05:39 AM

Thanks Sureshji for introducing me to such a wonderful piece of music. Good to know he is popular, he should be, great talent!

1st February 2012, 08:55 AM

Suresh,

'srirama' would be a pantuvarali without the gamakams,prayagos,etc. So just scale based, imo.

<dig>
On the aarabhi writeup - in particular - the recent carnatic singings, it must be a coincidence.. I was thinking exactly the same while watching some jaya tv concerts recently. Barring BMK and couple others, the perfection is steadily declining but rasikas still applauding (sometimes more than before). Was listening to DKP's bairavi few days ago (NOV posted in concerts thread).. what a perfection those days! How many can even think of coming close to it now? </dig>

1st February 2012, 09:10 AM

Similarly, another song from Kolangal "Mouna Ragam" appears to follow the scale of "karnATka Suddha Saveri".
CSR,

I too think so. The scale S R1 M1 P D1 implies Karnataka suddha saveri (or Gunkali in hindustani terminology). But the song
is very classical, so can't just say scale based I think.

Related raga is the 4-notes only Lavangi (S R1 M D1) - yet another beautiful BMK creation. I recently read in Raj's blog that IR has
tuned a song (below) in this raga ( or rather raga mixture). It was a pleasant surprise to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYo8cB8aM-w

However, this one is just scale based. (To appreciate the raga's real beauty, youtube for it. There's one detailed rama varma rendition.)

Sureshs65

1st February 2012, 10:00 AM

RR,
/Dig

I generally don't get started on the lack of perfection in today's concerts because I cannot stop :) All I can say is that you are spot on and the customers(rasikas) are not demanding perfection. Which is a sad state of affairs.
/End Dig

csramasami

1st February 2012, 05:22 PM

Thank you RR. Though, these might have been discussed in other threads of TFMpage, I still bring it here also, for reference sake.

Kolangal song Mouna ragam-karnataka suddha saveri - is definitely, a well established one Carnatically ragamwise. I hope the lyric is written by IR himself, since I find the word “Nyaana Desiganai” in the last line of Charanam, I guess that way.
(I only proceeded from where our friend Vel Ramanan established that this is not Malahari, then I got into the verification process.)

Mouna Ragam from Kolangal in Karnataka Suddha Saveri

Listen to the song here : http://thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR1709'&lang=en

The lighter version of this raga is in still older one :Amma Endru from Devotional Album IR - Geetha Vazhipaadu:

Listen to the song here : http://thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR1054'&lang=en

Another classically classical is the Ponnil Vaanam, an equivalently stunning rendition by S Janaki (again with the swaras of Karnataka khamas, but with different feel )

Ponnil Vaanam from Villupattukkaran in Ragam : karnAtaka khamAs
Listen to the song here : http://thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR4072'&lang=en

This also needs analysis in this thread.

You have also rightly approached the “Kangalukkul Ennai Ezhudhu” which is quite logical. In fact this was the first song I took up in 2004 with Vicky who confirmed the 4-swara aspect as well as the raga name as Lavangi.

Then I further took it up (in IR-yahoo group as well with others) to explain how IR goes for modulation with 4 swara raga (Lavangi), then 5 swara (Amirthavarshini) and then 6 swara (initially I found the name Ponni for that, but later in rasikas.org somebody corrected me as Mandari) etc. (Vel knows this, but still have some reservations, I think, in updating his Iliayaragam with the name Lavangi !)

But unlike the way Aboorva raagangal song in Mahathi is quoted often, this one in Lavangi is never known to many. (Only when Vel update his site and then in Thiraipaadal, world will notice that)

Yes, Varma’s youtube I have already noticed and yet to listen. Also, MFM has a few more songs in Lavangi by Raveendran etc (as I saw in malayalasangeetham.info , but many of them are after Kangalukkul, I think)

1st February 2012, 05:46 PM

lovely! :clap: thanks csr, Suresh, RR... lotta homework. kEttutu varEn.
(ponnil vaanam, listening to it for the first time, whattaybeauty! :shock:)

skr

1st February 2012, 11:19 PM

Superb CSR Sir reading your analysis. :clap:
Had a great time interacting with you in Orkut.
Guess im in for more of a feast here too .

2nd February 2012, 12:43 PM

CSR,

thanks for reminding 'amma endru'. What a wonderful raga usage.. Really miss that IR!

Interesting to hear about the 4, 5, 6 swara extensions. I missed the amrithavarshni part. Care to highlight which line it is?

On Lavangi, I too heard the mallu songs and they are ok ones. I think 'who did first' is just academic interest. Any kuppan or suppan (with due respect to MD's) can do it, but how they use it is the main matter. In 'adhisaya ragam' I think MSV went one step beyond what BMK could bring out in his composition - which was just carnatic one anyway. I am yet to see that in Lavangi. Pls listen to BMK sishya's rendition. I feel there's a lot to tap in the raga. IR can of course do a beauty but I guess he is not interested anymore.

Ponnil vaanam is a bit more complex, yes. Will listen more and get back. KV will help with the complete notes ;)

thumburu

2nd February 2012, 02:20 PM

CSR,

I too think so. The scale S R1 M1 P D1 implies Karnataka suddha saveri (or Gunkali in hindustani terminology). But the song
is very classical, so can't just say scale based I think.

Related raga is the 4-notes only Lavangi (S R1 M D1) - yet another beautiful BMK creation. I recently read in Raj's blog that IR has
tuned a song (below) in this raga ( or rather raga mixture). It was a pleasant surprise to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYo8cB8aM-w

However, this one is just scale based. (To appreciate the raga's real beauty, youtube for it. There's one detailed rama varma rendition.)

KaNgaLukkul ennai yezhudhu - Lavangi yaa? I thought it was Amirthavarshini scale in the pallavi with a Grahabedham done in the charanams to PanthuvaraLi??? RR, the last line of pallavi "enna idhu enna idhu pudhu pudhu mayakkam" and the initial portions of the first interlude rang the Amirthavarshini bell in my mind.

Regarding ponnil vaanaam, I feel Naattakurinji odour , but ONLY at few places. Anybody with me?

Sureshs65

2nd February 2012, 07:19 PM

Thumburu,

I also get a similar feeling about 'kangalukkul'. I am not too sure of the pallavi being Amruthavarshini. Maybe it has only four notes but the charanam surely has the tinge of Panthuvarali and in the second interlude some scale changes seem to happen. As usual Raja used his own grammar here is what I think.

Sureshs65

2nd February 2012, 07:34 PM

Reg 'ponnil vaanam' I clearly Sriranjani in that!!! I mean the Sriranjani flavour is very much there, especially the way he ends the pallavi. 'kaalayile, solayile, kann padum velayile'. The flute that accompanies after that also indicates Sriranjani. I do see some changes in the interludes but the main melody sounds very much like Sreeranjani to me. In some places I clearly see this being equivalent with 'naadam ennum kovilile' (MSV - Manmada Leelai?)

And thumburu, no, I don't see the Natakurunji flavor. Atleast not in the main song. As I said the interlude seem to have some alien notes but the main thread seems to be Sriranjani.

3rd February 2012, 10:11 AM

thumburu, yes there's natakurinji like phrases at some points. Some rageshree like too. Nanna kozhapparaar nambalai.. While we are cracking our brains,

Here's a birthday dedication to our friend Suresh..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwG7li3mkQA&feature=player_embedded#!

Many happy returns of the day, mate !

Gregorysab

3rd February 2012, 11:24 AM

Ponnil Vaanam - i also do not see a natakurinji but 'feel' sriranjani. But again, is it a mix between sriranjani & kamas?

Sureshs65

3rd February 2012, 02:43 PM

Thanks RR for the wishes and the song :)

vel

7th February 2012, 09:12 AM

Kolangal song Mouna ragam-karnataka suddha saveri - is definitely, a well established one Carnatically ragamwise. I hope the lyric is written by IR himself, since I find the word “Nyaana Desiganai” in the last line of Charanam, I guess that way.
(I only proceeded from where our friend Vel Ramanan established that this is not Malahari, then I got into the verification process.)

Mouna Ragam from Kolangal in Karnataka Suddha Saveri

Listen to the song here : http://thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR1709'&lang=en

The lighter version of this raga is in still older one :Amma Endru from Devotional Album IR - Geetha Vazhipaadu:

Listen to the song here : http://thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR1054'&lang=en

Yes CSR -- both follow KSS raga pattern as you have said. Great raga find from the Geetha vazhipaadu song.

vel

7th February 2012, 09:49 AM

Another classically classical is the Ponnil Vaanam, an equivalently stunning rendition by S Janaki (again with the swaras of Karnataka khamas, but with different feel )

Ponnil Vaanam from Villupattukkaran in Ragam : karnAtaka khamAs
Listen to the song here : http://thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR4072'&lang=en

CSR ji, i would go with your judgement! It is the notes of karnataka khamas and cannot be khamas as i dont see any Ri2. It cannot be nattakurinji as the omission of Ri2 is complete.

vel

7th February 2012, 09:54 AM

You have also rightly approached the “Kangalukkul Ennai Ezhudhu” which is quite logical. In fact this was the first song I took up in 2004 with Vicky who confirmed the 4-swara aspect as well as the raga name as Lavangi.

Then I further took it up (in IR-yahoo group as well with others) to explain how IR goes for modulation with 4 swara raga (Lavangi), then 5 swara (Amirthavarshini) and then 6 swara (initially I found the name Ponni for that, but later in rasikas.org somebody corrected me as Mandari) etc. (Vel knows this, but still have some reservations, I think, in updating his Iliayaragam with the name Lavangi !)

But unlike the way Aboorva raagangal song in Mahathi is quoted often, this one in Lavangi is never known to many. (Only when Vel update his site and then in Thiraipaadal, world will notice that)

before we analyze this one, let us first salute the genius of IR....what innovations and yet no compromise on the melody ! And all this on top of a racy rythm pattern. This is a masterpiece.

another salute to you CSR ji ! You have introduced so many gems to me and fans like me and we are forever indebted to you for inculcating this open minded approach to analyzing raaja songs. You taught me to not to brush aside anything that my small brain cannot understand. I learnt that learning attitude from you. Gifted to have you amongst us.

i will post on the song shortly.

vel

7th February 2012, 11:18 AM

About the song and the various raga confusions -- here is my take. The below are the connecting dots of this music puzzle

1 Kanakāngi S R1 G1 M1 P D1 N1 S S N1 D1 P M1 G1 R1 S

a derivative of Kanakāngi = Karnātaka Shuddha Sāveri S R1 M1 P D1 S S D1 P M1 R1 S

another derivative of Kanakāngi = Lavangi S R1 M1 D1 S S D1 M1 R1 S

2. Kanakangi is grahabedham counterpart of pantuvarali - S R1 G3 M2 P D1 N3 S S N3 D1 P M2 G3 R1 S

3. grahabedham of kanakangi's janya ragam Karnātaka Shuddha Sāveri S R1 M1 P D1 S S D1 P M1 R1 S is amruthavarshini S G3 M2 P N3 S S N3 P M2 G3 S

The song pallavi is in lavangi we may say (which is a derivative of kanakangi). There is a sruthi change in the charanams and the Ri1 of the kanakangi/lavangi is played as Sa. From this Ri1 to the next octave's Ri1 is actually kanakangi or its derivatives morphing as pantuvarali and its derivative -- all derived by the tonic shift of the Ri as the new Sa.

No matter what notes are added or deleted, these are structural premises with which this song operates !

The feel of pantuvarali in charanams is undeniable and hence i call it as that.

Gregorysab

7th February 2012, 11:46 AM

Fantastic dissection Vel. I understand it theoretically and i admit, we need a live demo of this (using keyboard), to really assimilate this. But nevertheless, fantastic insight!:clap:

vel

7th February 2012, 12:22 PM

hi thanks a lot aakarsh, its a great Eureka feeling when such dissections are done. The joy multiplies several folds when i share it with others. As i said, it is due to legendary and open minded fans like CSR who taught me this explorative attitude. (If you talk to CSR, you will be surprised at his depth of knowledge and yet his adoring awe and respect for IR......He has shared with me plenty of raga and WCM insights 5-6 years ago...now he is too busy these days)

I thank my stars that i didnt have the air or the false arrogance to dismiss any IR song as a rotten apple. That would have been a pathetically sorry state of affairs really! I believe in what SPB said once -- there is never a waste song in IR's music ....Now, coming from him, that is a grand statement -- a statement that makes me patiently check and dig for any underlying pattern of innovation/unique aspect in a IR song!

Sureshs65

7th February 2012, 02:15 PM

Lovely dissection from Vel. Thanks.

Let me now take a ragam that has always been a success whenever Raja uses it, 'Suddha Saveri'. Another one of those ragams with which Raja unheard heights in film music. 'kovil mani osai', 'kanna kanna nee enge', 'kaadhal mayakkam', 'sithagathi pookale' are samples. He has used this extensive. Unlike Mayamalavagowla which he uses in every possible situation, Raja generally uses Suddha Saveri for more melody oriented songs.

Lets see a few songs that he did in the later part of 90s and in 2000s where he has used 'Suddha Saveri' and it is but natural that the songs are very melodious.

I didn't hear it when it was released. Those were the 'Raja is past his prime' phase and I am wasn't reading tfmpage either. Not sure how the reviews were in tfmpage for 'Kochu Kochu Santoshangal' but when I heard this song, it became an instant favorite of mine. I have three version of this song, one a duet, one a male solo and one a female solo. And I have these in two versions, mp3 and wma. And I play all these six versions one after the other in my mp3 player and I never tire out. Right from the first humming, where the voices trill, the stamp of master exists. What an extraordinary melody. And when the melody goes, 'pranaya nila' you have no choice but to surrender. And that 'oru noor ishtam kaadhil sonnadhaaranu', especially the female portion. No words. KKS was probably a late 90s film.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVTAr_Va30I

As I said, Raja generally uses Suddha Saveri for duets and mainly melodious duets. So I was surprised when he took that ragam and used it for a seeming erotic song. It was our bad that during a phase lot of films which Raja gave music to never released. I hear that 'Dhanush' was one such movie. This had some nice songs and the favorite of mine is this Suddha Saveri based number. Replying a lot on rhythm, Raja gives a totally different color to Suddha Saveri. 'Dhanush' was probably an early 2000 movie.

http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs=%27SNGIRR0615%27&lang=en

It is a testimony to the genius of Raja that he could take the same raga, use a very similar rhythm like that of the 'Dhanush' song and convert it into a very nice bhakthi song!!! 'Amma Paamalai' had some excellent melodies, including Raja's superb Kalyani. Unfortunately not many were happy with Bhavatharini singing almost all the songs. This particular song based on Suddha Saveri is sung by Bhavatharini with Raja also contributing. The song has a lovely shenai prelude. I love this song and listen to it often. This was also an early 2000 album.

http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs=%27SNGIRR4131%27&lang=en

And early this year came 'Ayyan' which everyone hated, except for one song. Not surprisingly that song was based on Suddha Saveri. This is vintage Raja, squeezing out every melodic possibility from the ragam.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tbj-QCPieFc&feature=related

The audio quality is better in the thiraipaadal site. So head here if you don't worry about the visuals.

http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs=%27SNGIRR4257%27&lang=en

For the sake of completeness, I am including the reworked 'Kochu Kochu Santoshangal' song here. This appears in the Telugu film 'Ninnuchoodaka Nenundalenu'. Raja makes quite a few changes in the tune as well as orchestration. Maybe because I heard it first, I prefer the Malayalam version:

http://www.raaga.com/play/?id=8849

Gregorysab

7th February 2012, 02:30 PM

Lovely set of songs Suresh! The moment I came across "Suddha Saveri" in your paragraph, I knew you would list out Koda Manjin! Manasoram is a given anyway, because it is recent. The telugu song is the surprise for me, for I havent listened to it before although I had the album.

Btw, probably you can add even: http://www.thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs='SNGIRR3084'&lang=en to the list. Lovely song! There is a telugu version too of this song, if I remember right, it is sung by 2 female singers.

Sureshs65

7th February 2012, 07:07 PM

Kamal,

Thanks. I had listed 'Sithagaththi Pookale' in m writeup. It is a well known melody so I didn't list it. Yes, it does belong to the 90s.

V_S

7th February 2012, 08:50 PM

csr sir, vel, Suresh ji, RR, KV, skr, thumburu, vinatha, aakarsh,
I am indebted to you all. :notworthy: What an enlightening thread and wonderful analysis. Even I don't get much whatever little I get, I am feeling so great. Thanks to you all.

skr

8th February 2012, 09:41 PM

Katyayani - A Janyam of Natabhairavi
Structure - S R2 G2 P D1 S | S D1 P G2 R2 S
Prima facie it looks like Mohanam , ofcourse the difference being in the later it is Ga3 whereas in Katyayani its Ga2

There was a recent concert of SPB in Chennai .The theme was raga based film songs.
Needless to say majority of the songs were from Maestro's compositions
In the concert he mentioned about this raga and sang the song Amma Amma Endhan from Uzhaipalli.
An Amma song , can it not be good , SPB sings so awe inspiringly , such a touching song , you get a slightly sombre feeling when listening to this raga.
Lovely flute trills in the prelude and there is a hard hitting impactful counterpoint between violins and then a small veena conveying the melancholic surrounding :sad: to again give way to the resounding violins. The flute also beautifully wraps itself around the melody in the Charanam.
He uses Tremolos in the 2nd interlude to keep the reverbrating effect intact :clap: to be followed by the violins and the oh so louly flute with some arpegios in the background :bow:
The finale witnesses a super crescendo style ending with violins converging across 3 octaves (flute trills suddenly appear) to end in a thunderous fashion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-7QJzYlZ_k

skr

8th February 2012, 09:44 PM

From a sombre song , came across another IR song in the same raga.
One which came much earlier and which is a really nice melody sung so sweetly by SPB. I guess this should have appeared in App's Golden Era of IR-SPB thread, Pls give link if possible.
Its just amazing how IR treats the same raga in such diverse ways.
Jodi Nadigal - Anbe Odi Vaa
http://thiraipaadal.com/tpplayer.asp?sngs=%27SNGIRR0200%27&lang=en

skr

8th February 2012, 09:50 PM

Posting the list of songs that were sung in the SPB Ragam based film songs concert held in Kamarajar Arangam , Chennai last month.
Count the no. of IR Songs :)
1. Thumbi vaa (Instrumental music)
2. Isaiyil Thodangudhammaa (Ananthu)
3.Kaatril varum geethamae en kannanai ( Female chorus and ananthu) - Kalyani
4.Jaadhi malli poocharamae - SPB - Maand(MD - Maragathamani)
5.Amma amma endhan aaruyire - SPB (It was mind blowing!! ) - Katyayani
6. Naanoru Sindhu - Sindhu Bhairavi - Sindhu Bhairavi
7.Idhazhil Kadhai - Lalitha (SPB and a female singer) - Unnaal Mudiyum Thambi
8.Vaikarayil vaigai karaiyil - Subha pantuvarali (SPB) - Payanangal Mudivathillai
9.Malligaye Malligaye - Sarasangi
10.Unnal mudiyum thambi thambi - Hindolam - SPB
11.Meendum Meendum Vaa- Dharmavathi - SPB and a female singer (He said it is a difficult song for the chorus singers to sing)
12.Maanjolai kilidhaano - Kizhakkae poagum Rayil - Ananthu
13.The evergreen , beautiful Nandha nee en nila nila - Madhuvanthi - Dhakshinamoorthy Swamigal - SPB !!! Bliss
14.Radha Radha nee engae - Durga - Meendum Kokila - SPB kalakkals
15.ABC nee vaasi - Niranjani - Kaaki chattai - Ananthu
16. The mellifluous Vannam konda vennilavae - Peelu - SPB , the great!
17.Innum ennai enna seiyya poagiraai - Gambeera nattai- SPB and a female singer!
18.Madhura Marikkozhundhu - Mayamalavagowlai
19. A medley of Paartha vizhi - Paavani and Maogum enum Theeyil - Kanakaangi- Brilliantly rendered by Ananthu after explaining about both the raagams!
20.Raagam Thaanam Pallavi - Raagamaalika- SPB - Movie Shankarabaranam
21.Kootatthilae Koyil Puraa- SPB- Karnataka Khamas
22.Kaadhal Mayakkam - Suddha Saveri - Pudhumaipenn
23.Aval oru Maenagai - Sivaranjani - SPB -*Goosebumps*-
24.Poovil vandu -Mohanam - SPB - Kadhal Oviyam
25.Poove Sempoove - Solla Thudikkidhu Manasu
26.Unakkenna Melae nindraai - SPB
27.Kannukkul Nooru Nilavaa - Shanmukhapriya - SPB
28.Kamalam Paadha Kamalam - Ananthu
29.Oru naal Podhumaa - Ananthu (Brilliant singing)