Historical Debates/Qs/Facts/Theories

[Oldposts]

Topic started by vj on Sun Aug 15 20:49:49 .


This may be a thread, clarifying misconceptions about Indian history. We could post queries also.

[Oldposts]

In a discussion forum, someone made the claim that Madurai was named after Mathura. Do let me know of the statement's strength.
I am reproducing his post here...

Madurai incidentally was named after Mathura.

Mathura is very very very old, and there is historical evidence to show that Madurai was
named after Mathura because it was the temple town of the south, analogous to Mathura. Mathura
has been a major religious and trade center for over 3000 years. It is a major city in the
Mahabharata, and ancient Buddhist and Greek writers refer to it.

Madurai, like most of the urban south, developed in AD, not BC.

by
Venkatesh G Rao on Sulekha CoffeeHouse

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There is a district in Indonesia called Madura.
Any connections?

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Its an island.
There is connection.
The people there speak a different language called Madurese which is related to Javanese.

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Ennaanga Mr. JayBee. :-))
What is the connection, please?
Ennai homework seiyya cholla maatteenga-nu namburen. :-))

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NOV,
avar Dr.Jaybee :-)

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Paravaayillai.
Eppadi connaalthaan enna?
JayBee, JayBee-thaanE?:-)

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About two thousand years ago, people from India ventured out to South East Asia. May be earlier.
They were mainly from Tamilnaadu, Andra, Kalingga, and Bengal.
Many kingdoms were established.
Some of the royal dynsties were of South Indian origin.
There were Pandyas, Pallavas, Cholas, etc.
For example, the Khmer royal line was related to the Pallavas.
The later Malay kings claim descent from the grandson of Rajendra Chola.
When they settled in that huge land mass, they
named their towns after the towns in their land of origin.
Thus you find Madura in Java, Ayuththiya in Thailand and Takkola in Thailand. There were many others.
Takkola is now known as Ta Kua Pa. It is named after a town in Tamilnadu - Takkolam. Its near Kanchipuram.

[Oldposts]

Somebody wrote this:

>>>Madurai, like most of the urban south, developed in AD, not BC.

by
Venkatesh G Rao on Sulekha CoffeeHouse<<<

No. Its not so.
Madurai was already there as early as 300 B.C.
Proton magnetometer studies and other recent discoveries point to an even earlier time - around 600 B.C.
Its mentioned in Paripaadal - Sanggam work.
It had a different shape and size.
The river Vaigai has also altered course several times.
There were several articles that I have written on this in the Tamil.net and Agathiyar.
I don't have them with me, now.
Otherwise I could have forwarded them to you people.

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What is the story of Madurai being swallowed by the sea twice (kadal kondathu) and the present Madurai is the third in line. Also mentioned is the pahtruLi aaRu, which was also taken by the sea.

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That was "Then Madurai". This was on the banks of PahRuLi River in Kumari. It was swallowed once.
The second capital was Kapaata Puram on the banks of the Kumari River. This was swallowed up,later.
The third capital is Madurai(present).

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JB, the standard explanation for "land taken by sea" myths of all cultures is the flood legend. The anthopologists usually term it a manifestation of folk memory of the great flood, melting of the ice caps at the end of the last ice age 9000BC that raised the sea level by 90 meters. They dont believe anyone had written grammar and established cities that long ago. But they consider it a definite proof that enough social organisation, and enough linguistic framework existed to propagate the memory of the great flood through generations.

The flood is mentioned found in Hindu, Judeo-Christian religions, the native american cultures, greek and mesopetomian legends also.

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The Chinese and Malays do have it also:-)
Thats what makes people pause in their tracks......
and think.
Like what I did.

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Dr. Jay Bee - Sorry and thanks.
Very interesting theory and makes plenty of sense.
Was Parameswara who founded Malacca a Thamizhan?
Also, how did the Balinese end up being Hindus (in an ocean of Muslims)?

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Parameswara was a Malay. But he was a Hindu.
At that time, the whole of South East Asia was either Hindu or Buddhist.
But the Hinduism that they followed was a lot different from the present sense of the word.
During the 15th century, it was because the rulers changed religion, the people also followed.
But the Bali rulers held their ground and maintained Bali as a Hindu nation. It was a short time to wait for the Westerners to come. When they did, conversion was not an issue anymore.
But all over Indonesia, we still find pockets of Hindus. In Medan, there are the Hindus of the Batak tribe. They have a temple called Koil Sri Kartikeya, which is dedicated to Murugan. The Batak speak the Batak language apart from Bahasa Indonesia.
I have met Hindu Javanese and Madurese. They also still play the Ramayana dance. "Perang Barata Yuda" means "The MahaBharatha War". They follow the Saka Era for counting years.
Parts of the Vedas have been translated into Indonesian. I have some Mandalas of the Rig Veda. Many Upanishads and Gita have also been translated.

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"Maadhu" (penn) uraiyum oor. Adaavadhu madurai meenakshi amman kudi konda oor. enaway adhu maadhu urai "Madurai" ena vazhangapattadhu enbadhu en karuththu.

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The ThiruviLaiyaadal PuraaNam relates the incident of how the place got its name.
To create this city, Siva took his serpent and placed it on the ground.
The serpent of Siva took its tail in its mouth and became a circle. The circle of serpent became the borders within which the city was created.
Then Siva sanctified the place with drops of the Divine Nectar(Amirtham) from His hair-locks(Minnaar Senjadai).
The name "Aalavaay" was derived from the circle of serpent and "Madurai" from Amirtham.
It was also known as the "Naan Maada Kuudal".

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Dr. JayBee,
Thanks a lot for the input. Do I take your words as a hypothesis ? How would you 'counter' the theory that Madurai was named after Mathura?
What about what Kuloththunga Cholan's view? and what is the 'popular' thought amongst the historians?

Vijay

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Another theory is that 'maruthai' maruvi became madurai. 'maruthai' is a kind of tree ??

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>>>>>From: vj (@ chme6pc4.ecn.purdue.edu) on: Tue Aug 24 18:06:24
Dr. JayBee,
Do I take your words as a hypothesis ? How would you 'counter' the theory that Madurai was named after Mathura? <<<<<

"Then Madurai" was certainly more ancient than Mathura. That again depends very heavily on whether you beleive in the Kumari Land lore or not.

>>>>>From: kiru (@ surf0004.sybase.com) on: Tue Aug 24 20:22:46
Another theory is that 'maruthai' maruvi became madurai. 'maruthai' is a kind of tree ??<<<<<

Its the other way round. Folks from Madurai and Ramnad call it "Maruthai". But they also call "kudhirai" as "kuruthai".
Marudhu is a kind of tree. Its the Holy Tree of Thiruvidai Marudhuur. Madurai is associated with the Kadamba tree. The temple is built over site of a forest of Kadamba trees called Kadamba Vanam.
There is a very beautiful and touching story concering a Marudhu tree and the Marudhu Brothers, associated with the building of the big 'thEr" of KaaLaiyaarKoyil.

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Re: Usage of "madhu" in the discussions on Madhurai in Tamil Nadu and Mathura in North India:

The northern city's name is pronounced in Skt. with "thh" an aspirated voiceless "th" which would not normally have anything to do with "madhhu" (sweet liquid) which in Skt. with "dhh" an aspirated voiced "dh".
Kiru,
As JB pointed out the "marudhai" thing is a joke based on collquial forms.

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I am not so sure that 'maruthai' as an earlier name for the modern Madurai is a joke. The Sangam work, 'Paripaatal' mentions in many places that 'Thiru marutha thurai' exits on the banks of vaigai,near the pANdiya capital.

Perhaps when the third capital/sangam had to be established after the destruction of Then Madurai and Kapaatapuram, PANdiya king renamed the Maruthath thurai (or Maruthai)on the banks of Vaigai as Mathurai, based on Then Madurai. (Often folklore -here the unrefined usage of the word maruthai- had proved to be a major source of intuition in properly establishing the correct human history.

Modern Madurai perhaps also took the name Alaivaay, (I differ here from J.B) remnescent of the alternate name of Kapaatapuram (a city on the banks of sea - alai vaay). (Incidentally Thiruchendur also had another name ThirucIr alaivaay during Sangam era. Thiruchendur is closer to Korkai, the legendary PANdiya port. After the second deluge, PANdiya king was supposed to have moved to a place called Manalur, again closer to Korkai, before moving on to establish the present Madurai. There is also a major town in Kerala with the name aalavaay near ErnakuLam, perhaps remnescent of the second pANdiya capital alaivaay or the modern Madurai.

As for the etymology of Then Madurai, there are two theories.

The first one is related to the word 'Mathirai' which is derived from the base 'Mathi' meening moon, the clan deity of PANdiya (mathikkulam - lunar dynasty, just like Choza was kathirava kulam-solar dynasty and Chera was thIkkulam-fire dynasty). With this theory, the meaning of Madurai may be 'the city of the lunar dynasty'.

An alternate theory is from the base 'mathil'-meaning ramparts-fort etc. The meaning of Mathurai would then mean 'walled city'. If we accept both the theories, the combined meaning would be 'the capital city of the lunar dynasty'.

Incidentally, this concept of capital city being called walled city is similar to the name Beijing (northern walled city), Chunjing (central walled city), Nanjing (southern walled city), Tokyo (eastern walled city) Kyoto (Walled city in the east) etc.

Two other Sangam era capitals in Tamil nadu also have names employing similar concept, namely Uraiyur - the place where the King and the government resides, Karuvur- the place which is central to the country meaning the place where King and the govt. resides.

I think there is uniformity in the concept of naming the three cities Mathurai, Uraiyur and Karuvuur - cities where the King and the govt.reside.

anpudan,
RM.K.

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Jay Bee wrote "In Medan, there are the Hindus of the Batak tribe". What is interesting about these Batak tribe is that some of the tribal clan names are Tamilized Sankrit names such as "Mukham", "Sinkam" etc. All sorts of Indians immigrated to South Esat Asia during and after Gupta period but only this Batak tribe still maintains its connection with the Tamils.

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Raveen,

Elsewhere you said, "Thirisoolam has been worshiped in Tamilnadu even before the Sangam period and its identification with the Rudra/Shiva happened only after we converted to Hinduism 2000
years ago."

Are you referring to the Vedic relegion as 'Hinduism" here ? If so, then what is the name that you would give the previously existing relegion, just Dravidian ?

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Madurai was a very ancient town.It may not be appropriate to fix the date 300 AD to it.Graham Hancock,a Edinbugh marine archaeologist says that the Poompuhar site could even predate the Sumeria in the Mesopotamia and this civilization is believed to have originated 5000 years ago(The Indian Express December17,2002).Silapathikaram which deals elaborately with Poompuhar also deals with Madurai.Both were State capitals.Hence Madurai should also be 5000 years old.If we carefully read Pattinap paalai with Sir John Marshal's "Mohenjo-Daro and Indus Valley Civilization"(Published in 1931),we will find many striking similarities.Rig Veda 1st Mandal Hymn 103:3 speaks about the forts of Dasyus.These refer to the forts of the Proto-Dravidians.Hence we have to fix the date of Madurai prior to the period of the Rig Veda.

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There seems to be many myths surroundings Thiruvalluvar. Some say he's from mylApUr, some others say he's from kanyakumari. There's also stories about Valluvar being AuvaiyAr's Brother and he had a virtuous obediant wife called vAsuki.

However it seems like the only thing we know about Thiruvalluvar with certainity is that he wrote thirukkuRaL and his time is between kazhaka kAlam and silappathikArak kAlam.

Anyways I found an article pondering about thiruvalluvar's possible origin (since his possible first arangERRam is...) is from perungkuLam. Can somebody tell me where is this perungkuLam located, (is this in mylappUr?). Here is the link...

http://vikatan.com/av/2003/jul/06072003/av0206.shtml

From this article I also happen to learn that thiruvE thiru ArumkanAvalar of Jaffna, was the first to transfer thirukkuRaL from Olaichchuvadi to print!
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[Sudhaama]

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Are these (except Tibet occupation by communist China) are based on any historical evidences? Do you know who invited foreign invaders to India? Please read Indian history. Do you know how much portion of India we lost to China in the last war? Even the powerful army of India couldn’t stop China, how do you expect poor small country like Tibet might have stopped China’s invasion?

Dear Mr. rkk,

I have to detail the True Historical events in this context... during the then Prime-Minister Nehru's Era.

In continuation of Gandhiji's Formula of Ahimsa to redeem Independance by wining over the Oppressor-foreigner... Jawaharlal Nehru the first Prime-Ministr of India wanted to establish Non-Violence policy in his National conduct also.

So he founded the PANCH-SHEEL THEORY of Peaceful-Co-Existence of all the International countries possessing the least of Military power in each country backed by mutual understanding all over the world.

Thus he propogated the Ideology of mutual trust and understanding to ensure Non-aggreesion on another country over any other Nation, irrespective of any sort of might of its own.

One of the World Prime-Ministers who appreciated Nehru on this Ideal and came forward to bring into action by means of mutual meets and discussions followed by lofty-worded agreement etc.... was Mr. Chow-en- Lai, the then Prime-Minister of China..

Nehru trusted him, since the other PM was so impressively exhibitive.

Prior to Independance days, British Government had set up and maintaining a Regional Defence- Military- force at Lhasa the capital of Tibet... which Battalion was at the command of the Indian-Viceroy at New-Delhi.. but at the cost of Tibet.

Chow-en-lai insisted Nehru saying.. " After all the Britishers were the Foreign oppressors who enslaved all of us and so thgey needed military forces all over the different Regiions... Why you and I need them... nor the country Tibet.?

Tibet and China are of similar culture of Budhism-concept. which Religion is the Dictum of Non-Violence. So I intend having a mutual Agreement with Tibet also... so that bth of or neighbours will live in peace and thrive together to advance.

So you must withdraw your military force immediately from Tibet."

Nehru believed Chow and accordingly sent a 30 day notice to Dalai- Lama the then Ruler of Tibet... that the Tibet's military protection no more rests with India,. and so will be withdrawn.

Immediately Lama rushed his Emissary to Nehru seeking the continuation of Defence-military, since he fears foreign aggression on his soil. and that he would bear the cost of India's military force deputed for the purpose based on a fresh agreement with Nehru. But this proposal was rejected by Nehru ... and the Batalion from Lhasa was withdsrawn... leaving Tibet unprotected.

Then Chow sent a Letter to Lama stating that Tibet is part of China and he must hand it over to them forthwith. Alarmed on it, Lama sent an emissary to China inviting Chow for negotiations at Tibet capital Lhasa..

But as per the International News of the days... that Lama's Emissary to China, was somehow made to sign in favour of China consenting for the accession.with it.

Lama's vociferous objection went unheaded and Tibet was captured by Chinese forces. .. within no time.

Consequently Lama the then Ruler of the Nation, had no other go than to stealthily escape... seeking Asylum in India.

Ah.! I see the God's miraculous Hands in helping Dalai Lama by causing a Dusty wind which functioned as a Curtain for the Budhist's Monk's Convoy to elope towards India,

... in the dark midnight from his palace on the Hills... thickly surrounded by the Chinese military forces.

as vividly narrated by Readers Digest then... even now brings tears in my Eyes.

Thus a National Ruler cum Religious Leader deemed as Demi-God by His Disciples, Tibetian people, became a pitiable victim of Betrayal ..

And the Innocent Non-Aggressive spirit of NON-VIOLENCE backed by the Emphatic Religious concept

... was OVER-POWERED AND SUBDUED BY AGGRESSIVE VIOLENCE force from an alien Soil.

Then how it became the Spring-board for Chinas Invasion on India... is another miserable Episode.

.. To continue.
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[Sudhaama]

Dear Mr. r_kk,

I am waiting for your comments, before I proceed further....Have you any Comment on the above?

[r_kk]

Dear Mr. Sudhama,
I agree to the reasons (behind the defeat in war) that you had mentioned (Nehru's overconfidence, India's unpreparedness etc). But my main question is whether Buddhist's nonvoilence concept is the reason for Tibet's defeat. I feel they might not have done anything against China'a aggression, even if they had well developed Army.

Any way this is one of the good historical subject, Indians have to know. Please throw some lights on what happened before and during the war.

[Sudhaama]

Dear Mr r_kk,

I have opened another thread today .. more relevant for this Topic, under the name :

Historical Lessons from the Past .. for the FUTURE INDIA.

http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?t=5117&highlight=

.. wherein I have replied to your points.

... So, on this Topic, You are invited to continue your discussions. there.

TO AVOID DUPLICACY.. Our Postings in this Thread will be DELETED SHORTLY.

[sundararaj]

Very informative thread. I heard that there is some connection between our Madurai and that of Madrid in Spain. Kindly plz elloborate.