Kumari Kandam [Archive]

Oldposts

30th January 2005, 03:04 PM

Kumari Kandam:

This infact is an interesting topic. There are some interesting accounts of this available in old tamil litt. But the information is not complete. The only information we know now is there was a vast land mass that was submerged inside the Indian Ocean. It had a river also called "Pahruli Aaru". This land mass was there to the south of present day's Kanya-kumari. There is also a theory in Geographical sciences that there was a very big continent stretching from africa to east-indies. There are evidences to bolster their claims. Infact they even claim that India and Srilanka were once a united landmass. The submergence of the continent should have been a slow and gradual process. The outcome being scattered island-groups from africa to australia. Madagaskar, Lakshadweep, Andamans, and Indonesian islands may all be fragments of this massive continents.

There is another interesting information about the submergence of land inside the sea. The Madurai city mentioned in the literatures of Sangam age was located on the shores of bay-of-bengal. It submerged into the sea and the Pandya king redesigned the city at a place called Kapatapuram. This again was submerged after some time and so the King built third Madurai beyond the reaches of the sea.This should have occured long long back. It is my opinion that after seeing calamities at this scale mankind would have conjured up the concept of Pralayam or Oozi. The recent occurence of such an incident which submerged Danushkoti suggest that the process is still alive.

I feel a proper study of this would lead to a more agreeable theory on the origin of Dravidian race. Aryan invasion theory, I feel, is not all that impresive. I will come back with other important points that I have collect on this later.

Oldposts

30th January 2005, 03:04 PM

IMHO

Kumari Kandam myth is not unique to us but shows our antiquity. The flood of the bible is also born of similar experience people had over eons. Humans have been living with a language and culture to communicate at least for 150,000 years. Any upheaval, which happened before that, is not in our cultural memory. What is in our cultural memory is probably what happened during the last 50,000 years. Submerging of continents happened millions of years ago, but Polar regions did evaporate and create major sea level risings within the last 70,000 years. In fact just 15,000 years ago such a calamity happened so the Kumari Kandam legend needs to be looked in that context. It is a pre historic memory of the people, which has been passed down the generations because it was of such calamity. Details of Madurai and books and Kings are later additions to a shared ethnic legend. Now I do not want people claiming that I must not be a Tamil because I believe so
:-)

Oldposts

30th January 2005, 03:04 PM

Add to this the seasonal monsoon activity, which has a habit of lashing out at Tamil Nadu coast regularly. Just imagine if a "super cyclone" of the sorts, which recently hit Orissa leading to over 50,000 deaths had hit ancient Tamil Nadu coast! It would have taken away any semblance of civilization for many generations. I would look to such plausible reasons to explain the Kumari Kandam than non-existent continents and submergence of Islands

Oldposts

30th January 2005, 03:04 PM

there was an ocean research funded by USA, France
and 2 other countries on South of Kanya Kumari.
Its was put under abeyance since 1960's
Their intial claim was that they found mountains under sea. This project has to be taken very seriously and must be started again.
Many startling details are yet to come.....

Oldposts

30th January 2005, 03:04 PM

Will ppl like JayBee, Mani, Chandra share their views about Kumari Kandam, literary references to kumari kandam etc., If this issue had already been discussed , pls provide a link
Thanks

Oldposts

30th January 2005, 03:04 PM

I am not sure if this thread has run its course long ago (today's date 10th October 2003), but, Perhaps a clue to the existence of Kuamari Kandam mentioned in Tamil Literature can be found in the Indian Ocean seabed map prepared initially in the 1960's (I believe by the Scrips Institution of Oceanography, USA) as part of a worldwide mapping project of the Oceans. I saw one of these maps as early as in the 70's, and would encourage others too to look up similar maps (in any fairly detailed World Atlas showing seabed contours).

You would then see that Somewhat South West of India, the Indian continental shelf extends all the way from the Lakshdweep Isles at the Northern end to the Maldives and the Chagos Archipelago (with Diego Garcia) at the Southern end. This is a stretch of about a couple of thousand miles length, and roughly a hundred miles wide in many places along that length. The depth of this extension of the Asian continental shelf is only a few hundred feet compared to the surrounding Ocean which is many thousands of feet deep. Hence during the Ice ages, before 8000 B.C. the shallow seas wher the Maldives and Lakshadweep Isles lie today would have been exposed, because sealevels Worldwide were lower during this period.

It is commonly believed that during this same Ice Age, other Islands elsewhere in the World were also connected to their continental neighbours - ie; Britain to Europe; perhaps Cuba to Florida; Papua New Guinea and Tasmania to Australia; Sri Lanka to Tamil Nadu, and the Indonesian Isles of Sumatra, Java and Borneo to the South Eas Asian mainland. Perhaps Under Sea Archeology which is well developed in the Mediterranean, the North Sea and the Baltic sea in Europe should be started in India on a large scale. I understand that some work has been done in relation to Ancient Dwaraga in Western India. But how about a start being made with ancient port cities on the coast of Eastern, Southern and Western India: eg; Kaverippoompattinam (Puhar) which reputedly went under the sea in the first or second century A.D. Korkai, Musiri are some of the other names that come to mind. Perhaps another generation of marine archeologists with better technologies at their disposal could then start to look for clues of Kumari Kandam, further away from the Indian coast.

regards to all,
Chitta Ranjan Mylvaganam,
Sydney, Australia.
<a name="last"></a>

F.S.Gandhi vandayar

21st June 2005, 07:52 PM

Kindly refer

http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?t=3002 and

http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?t=3194 [/font]

of tamil literature column also.

KADAL KOL’(Sea disaster) happened in the south of present Kanyakumari. If we dive into the Indian Ocean the ancient history Tamils / world can be proved.

Though archeological evidences got in ‘Porunai valley civilization’ other evidences are lying with tamil literature and somewhat in Sanskrit literature.

As per the book, ‘Tamil nattu varalatril Elakkia Aatharangal’(Literature evidences of tamil history) – 200 B.C to 1300 A.D. written by P. Suriya Narayanan talks about kumari kandam.

He refered the following tamil literature and give some conclusions about ‘KUMARI KANDAM’.

1. Tholkappia paayiram – Panamparanar and explanatory note of Elampooranar for paayiram
2. Erayanar Akapporul Urai and the Nakkeerar explanatory note for this.
3. Kaliththokai – Mullai kali pattu 104
4. Silappathikaram – Pukar kandam & madurai kandam & Adiyarkku Nallar explanatory note.

From the above,

1.During first sankam period from kanyakumari till ‘Pagruli Aaru’ a big land was there.
2.There two rivers pagruli & kumari run . In between kumari mountain was there.
3. Due to first kadalkol from the land between pagruli river and kumari mountain plunged into the Ocean.
4.Panamparanar poetry specifies kumari river and kumari mountain and calls this land as kurumpanai Naadu.
5.During Tholkappiar period this land also plunged in ocean with kumari river because of another ‘kadalkol’
6.Because of these two ‘kadalkol’s Kumari became as border of tamilnadu.
7.A long series of mountains were there from south end kumari / from the end of Western mountains to Island Madagaskar. This is called kumari malai and mahendram in Sanskrit literature.

A saiva book ‘sivatharu mothram’ says “after a mountain called ‘pothiyil’ in tamil mountain ‘Mahendram’ was there”.

The land is called ‘lemuria’ by Professor Scot Eliyat.

Though puranas are stories they contain some information of contemporary happenings since this happenings induce their story telling.

‘KADAL KOL’ that refered by Mathyasa Puranam : Akkini puranam : sathapatha pramanam.

1. A fish cautioned the king ‘Manu’ that Earth will plunge into water due to flood and so escape through ‘marakkalam’(Boat)- Mathyasa Puranam.

2. A big fish cautioned the king ‘vaivasvatha Manu’ that within 7 days earth will plunge into water and so escape through boat. – Akkini puranam.

3. Towards one part of western mountain the box of Manu was taken by flood. Then the other part of mountain plunged into water. – Satha patha puranam.

4. With the same above Manu is mentioned as Dravida King and did after floods a ‘Puja’ was done by him. – Pakavatha puranam.

5. In river ‘Palaaru’ Manu did his rituals after flood.- Mahabharatha (Vana parvam)

The above was the views of P.Suriya Narayanan.

The historian B.S.Upaththiyaya repeated the story of ‘Satha patha Puranam’ and compared it with the ‘kadalkol’ of Baabylonia and interpreted that Babylonia kadalkol is some three hundred years before what puranam says and this has been registered as ‘Koombu’ structure script.

This must be the 2nd Kadal kol happened during Tholkappiar period.

He further elaborate that the kurus who performed the rituals for Manu were called ‘Asiriyar’ / Asurar / Asuras.

Eventhough we cannot get archeological proofs now If we invent Indian ocean with new ideas we can surely get.

f.s.gandhi

F.S.Gandhi vandayar

23rd June 2005, 12:48 PM

Dear Friends, :)

'KUMARI KANDAM' research should be continued and lot of scholars put in favour of kumari kandam

Vanmeekarum Thamilum’(Valmeekar and Tamil) by ‘Narayanan Ayyankar’ gives some messages that tamil was used all over India during Third Kadalkol period when Manu went North.

A part of Himalaya was called ‘Kuyilaluvam’ which is refered in Silapathikaram. So tamil was used in north India.

Akaththiyar learnt tamil in Himalaya. Hence tamil was used in north India before sankam period.

Akaththiyar brought 18 kings and 18 ‘Velir’ from north India. Their generations did not speak other than tamil. So Tamils prevailed in north India.

In North India the folk dances are called ‘Kudam’ and ‘Koothu’ in many parts and so they might have followed tamil in prehistoric period.

In Aththinapuram Gouthaman made poetry on Tharuma puththiran and this is mentioned in Purananooru. Hence ‘Kurunaadu’ in north India had tamil usage.

Gouravar ‘Niraikodal’, Kannan ‘vidaiyeru thaluval’ and ‘Kudak koothaduthal’ specifies tamil practices during ‘pandava’ period.

‘Perunkathai’ specifies that a lot of tamil people were there in ‘Ujjayini’.

f.s.gandhi

F.S.Gandhi vandayar

25th June 2005, 05:14 PM

Dear Friends, :)

An Abstract message from the Book , ‘The mystery / suspenses of Indian Ocean’ By Alexander Gondarav – A Russian Archeologist and historian about ‘KUMARI KANDAM”

Based on Geologists World eminent historians have already proved the existence of kumari kandam. This includes western archeologists also. The research of Scot Eliate and Hikkael shows the existence of Lemuria Kandam (kumari kandam).

Federich Angel a friend of Karl Marx specifies Kondwana (kumari) kandam is the origin of world civilizations.

Indian Plants and animals matches with Madagaskar Plants and animals. There is one branch of short persons are available in Equator countries men. Like the persons who lived in Andaman Nichobar Islands before Stone age, in Africa, Malaya, New Gunea and Filiphines the short persons live. This is the proof that once Africa connected through land with South India and South Asian countries.

From Indian Ocean Two series of Mountains heightened further specifies Big Sea disaster happened in South of India.

In one kilometer deep of Indian Ocean the essence of Volcanoes specifies The land which was there in south of India plunged into water.

The one part of land which plunged into West Indian Ocean is present Indian sub-continent.

The Structure of south, west and East coast of south India shows the evidences of land immersion.

Enough proofs are there that South America,South Africa, South India and Australia with Antartica were connected by land.

The nest of birds who live in South Africa, South India and Australia found same. Sand worms who live in Sri Lanka, South India & Australia found the same.

The animals who have some boxes in their body for their young ones live in South America and Ausralia and this specifies earlier the two continents must have been connected through land.

All world Anthropologists say that Man has transformed from Monkey to Homosepian in kumari kandam.

Densed hot forests, Around them in the directions South east , south and North a land of Volcanoes were the picture of Kondwana land having the temperature fittable for the life of insects and animals.

Approximately around 70000 years Lemur monkeys came into being.

The words Manthi and Manthan available in tamil and this specifies Man evolved from Monkey.

‘Thenpulaththar’ worship prevails in south India probably shows that they pray to their ancestors who died in sea disaster.

P.S Upaththyaya quotes this in his Book, ‘Feeders of Indian Culture’ and tells ‘Aanmanthi’ is the root of ‘Hanumanth’.

f.s.gandhi

HindustaniLadka

25th June 2005, 10:35 PM

The ENTIRE India was once connected to Australia...and at one point, all the continents were connected together.

Surya

26th June 2005, 12:04 AM

Thus explanes the similarities between many Hindu and Aboriginical (I think I might have invented a word!) religious practices!! :D

HindustaniLadka

26th June 2005, 09:46 AM

Yes, and thus disproves the theory which is taboo in this forum! :D

F.S.Gandhi vandayar

26th June 2005, 01:11 PM

The 'kadalkol' mentioned not only in the Sankam literature but 68 type of stories found in all world ancient civilization right from sumeira till meditarannien Sea countries. Some of them dated exactly with the basis of Archeological studies.

In Bible old testament Israyel people(christian people) who were slaves in Egypt escaped due to floods in red sea.

This is mentioned in Hebrew as "Ve-ella semote" and in Latin as "Heb raika Veella semoth" - Refer The anchor Bible Dictionary (1992) Vol II page 690 - 693.

This is nothing but "Vella chemmedu" in tamil. A sankam poetry 'kaliththokai' specifies this.

"Malithirai Voornthu than man kadal vowalin, melivu entri mel chentru Mevar nadu Edampada-"

f.s.gandhi

Simply Silly

26th June 2005, 05:27 PM

Thus explanes the similarities between many Hindu and Aboriginical (I think I might have invented a word!) religious practices!! :D

Then it is time to modernize hinduism!

Simply Silly

26th June 2005, 05:32 PM

The ENTIRE India was once connected to Australia...and at one point, all the continents were connected together.

Yes, but it was eons ago, even before Hanuman became homo erectus. If I am wrong then we should rename the Earth to India.

Simply Silly

26th June 2005, 05:42 PM

Dear FSG,

good going! Superb! Thanks a lot and keep on going.

The friend of Karl Marx was Friedrich Engels, nothing to do with angels. Though their theory is still a religion, atleast for some beings.

ramraghav

28th June 2005, 08:14 AM

hey i got a pdf file that might interest people interested in kumari kandam. its an intro to a certain underwater discovery in poompuhar. pm me if u want it.
bye

F.S.Gandhi vandayar

28th June 2005, 01:36 PM

Dear Friends, :)

‘Kadal kol’ related stories prevailed everywhere in Present Gulf and Meditaraniean countries.Though they won’t specify exact date of events They specify the happening of ‘Kadal kol’. Simply we can not reject these stories and these are available registration of world ancient history. If that people were like us today they might have recorded. 'Pavam' :!: They could only record in terms of stories. And this is based on that Archeological proofs, linguistic proofs found in Gulf countries. How and when - We see it later in separate threads.

One of the stories is famous ‘Oones’ Story in parsian Gulf prevailed. Historian scholar 'Ferosus' gives this story.

In this half man – half fish- man swimmed from south east of Persian gulf reached Persian gulf when big flood came in sea and taught the people Numbers and Words. He went to red sea area and thought the civilization to the people who resided there.

The strength of ancient tamil people is sea trade. ‘Meen’is associated with them. You can see in all Medittaranean countries these ‘meen’-meen word- predominance. ‘Marakkalam’ was first invented by tamils and they found sea routes of south asian and gulf countries. 4500 years back teak wood was found in sumeria. It must be from Kerala.

Based on this evacuvations on Gulf countries and the findings matches with tamil. How? we will see in separate threads.

f.s.gandhi

Vini Vidi Vici

4th July 2005, 09:59 PM

Dear FSG v,
I don't understand one thing at all about Kumari Kandam. If the land submerged into Indian Ocean then why is it (the Indian Ocean) so deep arround Sri Lanka?

F.S.Gandhi vandayar

5th July 2005, 11:31 AM

Dear Vini Vidi Vici, :)

As per Geologists view 'Kumari Kandam' had elevated and lowered down land deep lands along with volcanoes and great mountains higher than himalayan mountain.

If you observe any Atlas having coloured difference in sea mapping from Lakshadeeps (palantheevu in tamil) to Maldives(North to south direction) and from Maldives to SriLanka (east direction) the depth of Sea level is 1/2 to 1 Km.

Immediate south of Sri Lanka Indian Ocean depth is more than 3 Km.

From Sri Lanka to Sumatra 'Carpenter Ridge' is there under sea level and the depth is nearly 1 Km.

From Maldives to Madakaskar 'Carris berg ridge' is there having 1 Km depth.

We can take Maldives as once existed top of mountains. And till Madakaskar lot of small islands specifies the moutain series once existed between Kumari and madakaskar.

f.s.gandhi

Vini Vidi Vici

5th July 2005, 03:40 PM

If there had been mountains and volcanoes higher than the himalayas, and let us assume so, then there must have been very different climate than of today causing a different flora and fauna. This can be very "easily" researched by scientists/geologists. What I know is that the Indian Plate is going under the eurasian and as the result the Himalayas evolved (the same with the Andes, the amazonas flow into pacific once). There are founds of sea shells and amonites in the Himalaya witnessing it. But to vanish a geological formation higher and greater than the Himalayas something evil must have happened. When do you think that this has happened?

Thanks for your support, I have no idea about Kumari Kandam and I was not at all interested in Geology. It is good to have you here. :thumbsup:

F.S.Gandhi vandayar

5th July 2005, 05:07 PM

Dear Vini Vidi Vici, :)

Scientists and Geologists classify Ice Age (10000 B.C to 7000 B.C) and Pre Ice age (Before 10000 B.C.) to explain the changes occured on the land.

Before 10000 B.C. kumari kandam was there with south America,South Africa,India and Australia as one land / atleast having land way connections. North and South poles were cool in nature.

Equator area only had climate and temperature for man evolution. The animals who cannot change their body temperature in accordance with surroundings evolved in this area. The animals who can change their body temperature in accordance with atmosphere evolved in earth poles.

Himalayan mountain was under the sea of northern earth hemi-
sphere.

During 10000 B.C. (Ice Age) North and South poles became more cool and oceans get contracted into ice. Northern lands of present Russia, China and European countries lands came out. Himalayan also came out. This process continued till 7000 B.C.

During 7000 B.C. Ice in north and south poles started melting producing more water. Already in Kumari kandam the earth crest was damaged due to Earthquakes and volcanoes creating more elevated and down slide lands made the water flew into down parts first and elevated parts next.

Thus Three 'Kadal kol' (Sea swallowing- diaster) happened till 3rd century A.D. While the northern hemisphere land remained undisturbed the southern hemisphere lands were separated by sea. People migrated to northern hemisphere when in south America,South America and South African Aborigines stayed back.

The stories about 'Kadalkol' is available in all world ancient civilizations.

f.s.gandhi

F.S.Gandhi vandayar

5th July 2005, 05:10 PM

removed

svmbanu

5th July 2005, 05:35 PM

Kumari Nadu - Murugan - his Vel

I too believe Kumari Nadu existed but at this point there are insufficient evidence to this effect. Apart from oral, poems etc there is insufficent evidence to satisfy one in todays age and time. However even if this civilisation goes back to even 10,000 years, despite the deluge there has to be some form of concrete evidence to proof this mysterious continent and its people existed. I hope we shall be able to obtain some soon.

Nevertheless if I may say that despite over 3,000 years of suppression etc on thing that has remained intact among the Tamil (meaning Dravidian) people is Murugan and his vel. This cult is confined to Tamil Nadu and Tamil Eelam (North & East of Lanka). In Eelam it is predominantly the worship of the vel whereas in Tamil Nadu its Murugan & his vel.

Therefore in time despite new gods and cults emerging this peculiar man Murugan / vel has survived intact. There are stories(folklore etc) which states that Murugan was present and participitated during the 1st & 2nd Sangam. It is probable such a man did exist when Kumari Nadu existed. It is also plausible that during the deluge this gentleman (a leader or a commoner) may have played a leding role to lead the Tamil people to safety during and after the deluge.

Hence he has been genetically coded into us (if i may use such term). His abode is always on a hill top which may have been the safest place during such tragedy. In time he would have been 'heroworshipped' a peculier trend among the Tamil people and today he is being worshipped.

There is or could be a proximity between Murugan / his vel and Kumari Kandam. I believe there is. Murugan and his vel are still with us. But we have only a memory of Kumari Nadu.

Furthermore there is no evedential proof that Murugan even existed. Therefore if we can proof (archaeologically) that Murugan existed in flesh & blood I believe this will eventually lead us to Kumani Nadu. Yes "the search for Murugan & his Vel".

Kindly comment and suggest.

Thank You,

Regards,
svmbanu
[/u]

r_kk

5th July 2005, 05:39 PM

F.S.Gandhi vandayar

5th July 2005, 07:05 PM

Dear r_kk, :)

Regarding the change occured in earth during 7000 B.C that I explained in my passage,

I refered the book "Discontinuity in Greek civlizations,Pennsylvania, Cambridge at the University Press, 1966. and "page 2 Gems from Pre-historic past" written by N.Mahalingam.

Scientists define glaciers movement and existance through ice ages. It may be ten to million years.

Kindly refer the follwing link to know what is meant by ice Age.

http://www.museum.State.il.us/exhibits/ice_ages/what_are_ice_ages.html

Regarding the "himalayan under sea" statement I refered P.T.Srinivasa Iyengar's "The stone Age in India".

f.s.gandhi

r_kk

6th July 2005, 05:29 AM

[tscii:342b7848db]
Dear r_kk, :)

"page 2 Gems from Pre-historic past" written by N.Mahalingam.

It may be ten to million years.

Regarding the "himalayan under sea" statement I refered P.T.Srinivasa Iyengar's "The stone Age in India".

f.s.gandhi

Dear FSG,
I don't have any objection about your mentioning of himalayas beneath the sea. The fossiles of Ammonites (Saligram) found above 5000m of himalyas proves that the himalyan region was once under the sea. The himalaya was formed due ocean retreat when indian plates moved towards eurasian plates around 40~50 million years ago (based on stratigraphy). These period was much before human evolution.

So if you are saying that Kumari kandam was went below water when himalaya went up, that was also 10,000 years, then it is not correct. Please note that glacier movement/ice age is much different to the plate tectonics and you can’t use a time scale “ 10,000 to 10,00,000” when you try to prove some thing scientifically.

I had also read many articles written on “Lemuria” by “Pollach N. Mahalingam” in his magazine “Sakthi”. Whether all his works can be considered as scientific proofs or not, it is a big question!

I hope you will not consider “Kal thontri man thontra…” literally as true. It shall be considered as “poetic licence” to express such one of the advanced early civilsation of human beings. Human evoluion as well as evolution of languages are very recent ones in geological scale. Please don’t consider my argument as some thing against your thoughts. I want you to be more authentic in writing Tamil’s history without contracticing science.

[/tscii:342b7848db]

Badri

6th July 2005, 05:52 AM

While r_kk is definitely sounding convincing, I have had of late certain doubts within mine own mind of when humans first appeared on Earth. As newer and newer evidence is being found, this date is also receding into time...

In 2001, National Geographic had published an account of fossils found in Ethiopia which may be the earliest human ancestor, dating back to 6 million years ago...yes 6 million years ago!!

Archaelogists have claimed to have found a 350,000 year old pink stone axe in a burial site in Spain, leading them to wonder if this may not represent the first ever burial rite by humans!!

When you really look at the evidences that keep being found, I wouldn't be surprised that some variation of Tamizh might well have existed, "kal thondri man thondraa kalathu mun"

Sometimes, folklore seems to be closer to the truth than what science has discovered till date...as we wait and watch, our latest tools and technologies may well help us unearth more evidences that take us back further and further in time.

ramraghav

6th July 2005, 08:17 AM

[tscii:07d1c9e863]Ok let’s get into some geology here..............

I think I have earlier made a mention of this wonderful book on revisionist history by a Briton, Graham Hancock. The book is called ‘Underworld: The Mysterious Origins of Civilization’. ISBN: 1-4000-4951-2

There’s some excellent research here on the origins of civilization in Malta, Japan, Mesopotamia and India. As a background to all his research, the author gives a very detailed analysis of geology. It’s impossible to compress his hypotheses, observations and conclusions in this post, so I will just be as brief and pertinent as possible.

Following are a few facts as reported in the book:
1. The last Ice Age lasted from about 125000 years before present (BP) to about 17000 years BP.
2. The Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) was reached b/w 22000 and 17000 years BP.
3. Habitable landmass, as available today, only took their present form after the end of the LGM, i.e. when the ice melted b/w 17000 and 7000 years BP.
4. Nearly 5% of the earth’s surface (around 25 million sq km) has been swallowed by rising sea levels after the LGM.
5. The melting of ice after the LGM, was not a steady and uniform process. It underwent sudden and catastrophic phenomena such as
Ice dams: natural ice dams were formed in various ice sheets all over the world. These dams could hold thousands of cubic km of water, and then suddenly break up to release all the water in one enormous event. The drainage would have been as high as 10 million cubic m per sec.
Volcanoes, earthquakes: continental shelves and ocean floors underwent isostatic rebound i.e. the shelves were becoming lighter due to meltwater running off and the oceans were becoming heavier due to accumulation of water. This led to extremely violent volcanic and seismic activity.
Drumlins: Post-LGM, temperature rise caused glacial melting. Sometimes, meltwater accumulated under the glaciers. Drumlins grew by accumulating sediments, rock and other debris. And then suddenly they resulted in gigantic sub-glacial floods 20 m deep and up to 160 km wide. Volumes of water required to sustain such floods would have been around 1 million cubic km.

6. In the midst of continuous gradual seal-level rise, there were 3 periods of enormous global flooding leading to sudden catastrophic sea-level rise. These 3 global super-floods occurred at approximately
i. 15000 - 14000 years BP
ii. 12000 - 11000 years BP
iii. 8000 - 7000 years BP

The author has been in the habit of making underwater dives all over the world wherever there is local folklore of submerged ancient lands. His dives in Mahabalipuram and Poompuhar have revealed submerged structures that date to at least 7000 yrs BP (Mahabalipuram) and 11000 years BP (Poompuhar).

The book is extensive and well-researched and I highly recommend that anyone interested in this subject get a copy of it. At the very least, you may want to check out his website: www.grahamhancock.com

If there’s anyway I can help in the author’s geological, archeological or literary research, please let me know. I’ll be happy to look up relevant portions of the book and answer questions as best as I can.

Ram[/tscii:07d1c9e863]

r_kk

6th July 2005, 08:29 AM

[tscii:789edcc2b6]Ok let’s get into some geology here..............

I think I have earlier made a mention of this wonderful book on revisionist history by a Briton, Graham Hancock. The book is called ‘Underworld: The Mysterious Origins of Civilization’. ISBN: 1-4000-4951-2

If there’s anyway I can help in the author’s geological, archeological or literary research, please let me know. I’ll be happy to look up relevant portions of the book and answer questions as best as I can.

Ram[/tscii:789edcc2b6]

Dear Ram,
Please note that Mr. Graham Hancock research is highly contravarcial and rejected by many scientists. There was a famous program made by BBC (horizon) shows his selective research. I will write more detial about him

ramraghav

6th July 2005, 09:06 AM

Badri

6th July 2005, 09:26 AM

[tscii:79eb163097]

Ram[/tscii:79eb163097]

Dear Ram,
Please note that Mr. Graham Hancock research is highly contravarcial and rejected by many scientists. There was a famous program made by BBC (horizon) shows his selective research. I will write more detial about him

Every noted scientist, from Galileo to Darwin, has been the subject of controversy! That alone is not sufficient to dismiss any of his theories! I guess it is best to evaluate his theories in an unbiased manner, given that we have no resources within our means to either prove or disprove them!!

ramraghav

6th July 2005, 09:37 AM

seriya sonninge badri

r_kk

6th July 2005, 09:48 AM

Dear r_kk

Hancock's controversial reputation stems from the fact that he has managed to authoritatively challenge conventional historical wisdom.

Hancock himself makes mention of that BBC interview in his book, and makes a point that the BBC coverage was very prejudiced.

I request you to read his book (or atleast check his website) to consider his arguments, before passing judgement on his reputation.

Trust me, his analysis and research is very strong and convincing.

Ram

I understand, what you are saying.

Please note that his so-called findings are aimed to prove not only ancient civilsation but also indirectly lead to "aliens" "UFO" "life in Mars" etc etc. So, one has to careful, if their research work is fully based on his findings.

Till now I haven't gone thorugh his books. What ever I know about him is through the BBC program and CSICOP reviews. So, let me read his work without bias, in detail and comment later.

F.S.Gandhi vandayar

6th July 2005, 12:08 PM

[tscii:cfcb721c0b]

So if you are saying that Kumari kandam was went below water when himalaya went up, that was also 10,000 years, then it is not correct. Please note that glacier movement/ice age is much different to the plate tectonics and you can’t use a time scale “ 10,000 to 10,00,000” when you try to prove some thing scientifically.

I had also read many articles written on “Lemuria” by “Pollach N. Mahalingam” in his magazine “Sakthi”. Whether all his works can be considered as scientific proofs or not, it is a big question!

Dear r_kk, :)

My explanation is not that Himalayan raising. Himalayan which came out of ocean. Plate tectonics is one scientific method scientists wants to explain about mountains raising.

Ice age is based on glacier movements that have been observed. The last glacier movements occured around 10000 years and it was mentioned in the book I refered.

Some scientists say 17000 years ago as pointed out by Ram Raghav in this column. The one ground reality is transformation occured on the earth crest. Based on that we want to explain the civilizational transformation.

We can not simply neglect the messages of literary works. In vedhas about 'Samuthra' was talked where no samunthra in north India. Saraswathi also was talked.

In the same way flood stories are talked now. Tamil literature talks about kumari kandam. We have to further seek archeological proofs to support the message mentioned in the literary works. Some ground reality might have influenced these writers.

We see the archelogical proofs containing language and culture as objective evidances to support our claims about civilizations. Not about skeletons that present million years ago.

f.s.gandhi

[/tscii:cfcb721c0b]

Eelavar

6th July 2005, 10:35 PM

I PERSONNALY THINK AND I'M SURE OF THE EXISTENCE OF KUMARI KANDAM, BUT EVERYBODY CAN THINK WHAT HE WANT.

AND WHAT DOES THE LAST ARCHEOLOGICAL DISCOVERIES IN MAHABALIPURAM MEAN ??? THERE IS A BIG ANCIANT SUNKEN CITY. THE FACTS ARE THERE.

http://www.grahamhancock.com/underworld/mahabalipuram1.php

I THINK BOTH TAMIL INDIANS AND ELAVARS HAVE TO RAPIDLY DO THIS RESEARCH BEFORE THE CONSTRUCTION OF SETHU PROJECT.

It is sad to note how intellectuals in India are quick to denigrate the extent and antiquity of their history, even when geological evidence like the Sarasvati River or archaeological evidence like the Harappan and Cambay sites are so clear...

from :
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/op/2002/06/18/stories/2002061800030200.htm

Sangam Literature reveal us too many about Kumari Kandam.

It's only conjonction , but
i hope that everyboy will understand what i'm trying to say.

F.S.Gandhi vandayar

10th July 2005, 01:10 PM

We have already seen the ‘Silappathikaram’ lines in support of Kumari kandam.

One more verse of Silapathikaram and explanation given by ‘Adiyarku Nallar’ clearly specifies the ‘nadus’ (kingdoms) in kumari kandam.

“Nediyon kuntramum Thodiyol powwamum
Tamilvaram paruththa thanpunal nalnattu” – Silappathikaram.

“Thodiyol Powwamum” clearly specifies kumari Sea (since ‘thodiyol’ means young lady – kumari, powwam means sea) was the southern border after first Sea disaster(KADAL KOL)

‘Adiyarkku nallar’ gives his explanation to this line as follows :

Powwam – kadal is used because kumari ‘Aaru’(river) ended at kumari ‘kadal’ (sea) during Elangovatikal time. Pagruli river, and kumari kodu (kumari mountain) had been already plunged into water.

Between Pagruli river and kumari river the distance was 700 Katham. (One katham = 15 ‘kal’ distance = 15 miles : Totally 9000 miles)

The countries were 1.Thenga nadu – 7 nos. 2. Mathurai nadu – 7 Nos. 3. Munpalai nadu – 7 Nos. 4. Pinpalai nadu– 7 Nos. 5. Kuntra Nadu – 7 Nos. 6. Kunakaarai Nadu – 7 Nos. 7. Kurumpanai Nadu – 7 Nos. Totally 49 countries / Nadus.

In the middle of Pagruli and Kumari rivers Kumari mountain was there.

f.s.gandhi

F.S.Gandhi vandayar

14th July 2005, 03:28 PM

Dear Friends, :)

Here you find the map of 'kumari kandam' containing the various Nadus. Check it out.

http://www.thule.org/lemuria.html

f.s.gandhi

F.S.Gandhi vandayar

14th July 2005, 05:19 PM

I ask the readers to check out the following link which was hosted by W.Scott Elliot, an eminent historian and perpetuater of Lemuria / Kumari kandam.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/tll/tll00.htm

and tll12 and tll15 of that site shows the inhabitants of lemuria and language existed respectively.

The languages were formed out from monosyllables (suttu oligal) and vowels which are in tamil is significant. Chinese language is that kind and chinean liguistic 'Troskin' found tamil containing more monosyllables than chinese and called tamil might be the first language spoken by mankind.

The roots words archeology is based on this formula.

Suttu olikal, verbial expressions, oru porut kilavikal will make roots in ascending order.

f.s.gandhi

Eelavar

14th July 2005, 08:25 PM

dear friends,

i like to read your comments about Kumari Kandam, it's very a interesting topic.

I suggest you to visit this link ,
http://www.tamilnet.com/art.html?catid=79&artid=13862

What we know of the antiquity of Tamil civilization seems to be top of an iceberg...

Eelavar

14th July 2005, 08:34 PM

Dear Mr R_KK:

If graham history is too much controversial and not trusted by sciencists and anthropologists,
it's because west vision about our human past is totally false...

They will never accept that a civilisation rised in South India, and that it can be the so called Atlantis described by the philosoph Platon...[/quote]

F.S.Gandhi vandayar

18th July 2005, 01:22 PM

Here one more Archeological evidance that 'kumari kandam' existed.

There are some weapons which are unique to the Tamils. Among them are thirukkai vaal, vaLari, and suruL vaaL. Of these, the vaLari is a weapon which arouses our curiosity. It is a sort of boomerang. Boomerang is a weapon which is used by the Sons of the Soil of Australia and some tribes of Africa. Tamilnaadu is the only place apart from them.

Dr.A.V.Jeyachandrun deciphered this in ThoNdi which is an ancient port pattinam of the ancient Pandyas.

f.s.gandhi

solomon

14th September 2005, 07:01 PM

Friends,

Sangam Lit. does not support anyware Kumari Kandam fables.

DEvaneyan says it happened "Noorayiram Andukatku Mun"
Now what is the dating- Even though 95% evidences do not support, what use then of such past, when Man was walking in 4 legs and does not know to talk.

Please date Kumari fable according you Chronologies.

Solomon

Idiappam

5th October 2005, 05:27 AM

Friends,

Sangam Lit. does not support anyware Kumari Kandam fables.

Read more. And perhaps the Silapathigaram too!

sivajayan

5th October 2005, 08:58 PM

solomon

7th October 2005, 12:08 PM

Friends,

I have only quoted what Sangam Lit, which does not have any suppot for these fables.

Man started to live as a joint collection only after Big flood after Icemelt in BCE12,000 and all finding and growth of civilisations took place afterwards.

No Scientific Data has shown submerged lands below, INDUS- TO Pacific Oceans
Moses Solomon

sivajayan

14th October 2005, 04:50 PM

F.S.Gandhi vandayar

28th October 2005, 12:37 AM

Those who want tamil literature evidance for kumari kandam can once again go through the first page of this topic and the website mentioned by Mr.Eezhavar on 31st March 2005.

f.s.gandhi

F.S.Gandhi vandayar

8th December 2005, 03:17 PM

Dear Friends,

Kindly visit this following link for "Book Review" in the Hindu column.

http://www.hindu.com/br/2005/08/16/stories/2005081600681500.htm
The book contains adequate scientific evidances for 'KUMARI KANDAM"

The Lost Land of Lemuria: Sumathi Ramaswamy; Permanent Black, D-28, Oxford Apartments, II, IP Extension, Delhi-110092. Rs. 695.

f.s.gandhi

abbydoss1969

9th December 2005, 08:21 PM

Fsgandhi vandayar,
In the recent kumudam magazine a reader has asked Sujatha:"Is it true that Lemuria was inhabited by Tamils?"
Sujatha has answered,sarcastically;"In those days , when Lemuria was supposed to have existed, language was not even discovered. So, may be Tamils were speaking in sign language"

Your comments?

mahadevan

10th December 2005, 12:41 AM

yeap even Rama and Ravana were using sign language in Ramayana !

F.S.Gandhi vandayar

10th December 2005, 03:22 PM

Dear Mahadevan,

Sujaatha is a Vedhic Protagonist and he will always twist the truth about Tamil's history.

Some months back he wrote in "Aanantha Vikatan" that Dravidians came from out of India.

First Kadalkol happened during 3000 Years and 49 Nadus of tamil inhabitants plunged into water.

May be during 50000 years back People might have used sign language in Kumari Kandam or lemuria.

f.s.gandhi

Surya

10th December 2005, 05:10 PM

F.S.Gandhi vandayar

11th December 2005, 01:16 PM

F.S. Gandhi, :)

At what time period did Kumarik Kandam submerge into the Indian ocean? The first 'Kadalkol' took place 3000 years ago. Which means, around 1000 BCE right? But is there any info on when Kumarik Kandam had completly gone under?

Dear surya,

Sorry :!: There is a correction. Instead of 5000 years, I wrote 3000 years.

The 'Kadalkols' we talk about here is recorded in place. First Kadalkol occured 5000 years ago and First sankam Anthology perished.

The second 'kadalkol' occured 3000 years ago(Tholkappiam time line is 1250 BCE) and except Tholkappiam all other second sankam Anthology perished.

The Third 'kadalkol' occured during 200 CE and Poompukar perished into sea.

Between 12000 and 10000 years ago massive 'Kadalkol' occured which was not recorded anywhere but explained through "ICE AGE"- Ice berg movement. Perhaps most parts of the kumarikandam plunged into water during this time.

f.s.gandhi

Azhahan

11th December 2005, 06:17 PM

yeap even Rama and Ravana were using sign language in Ramayana !

At least Rama was using a "sign language".

How to handle all the animals building the bridge to Lanka else?
If he had been usuing the "br-br-language" we would have known him as a brbrian or barbarian.

The word barbarian devoloped from the folks that used a language that sounded br br to ancient Romans. The folk that used this br br language was Germans. And their methods to fight Romans were barbaric.

The Bridge to Lanka was the rem(a)inder of a Kadalkol I heard.

F.S.Gandhi vandayar

13th December 2005, 12:56 PM

"Porepuripavan" in tamil means 'Karadu muradanavan' (hardcore rogue), 'Maaru padu bavan'(opposing person), Kattu Vilaan kaanavan (Country brute), sandai idupavan(one who participates in battle) and so on.

'Porepuripavan' (Tamil), Barbaros(Greek),Barbaarian (English and Saxian) is the evolution.

f.s.gandhi

bis_mala

13th December 2005, 01:48 PM

At least Rama was using a "sign language".

Was Rama a historical person?

Surya

14th December 2005, 07:27 AM

Mala,
That's a completly different debate! :) There's already a thread for it I think.

F.S.Gandhi, :)

What I'm going to say, I'm saying just to learn something. :D

Regarding Tamiz's History:

The earliest examples of Tamiz writing we have today are in inscriptions from the 3rd century BCE (Around 300 BC), which are written in an adapted form of the Brahmi script. The earliest available text is the Tolkappiyam, a work on poetics and grammar which describes the language of the classical period, portions of which date back to around 200 BCE. Archaelogical evidence obtained from inscriptions excavated in 2005 dates the language to around 1000 BCE.

Regarding Kumarik Kandam aka Lemoria:

Kumari Kandam is a legendary sunken landmass to the south of Kanyakumari, at the tip of South India. Kumari Kandam has often been compared and identified with Lemuria in modern times. According to Tamiz Tradition, the Dravidians originally came from a submerged island, Kumarik kandam, to the South of India. Epics like Shilappadikaram and Manimekhalai describe the submerged land mass. Also in Ayyavazhi mythology, the Akilattirattu Ammanai tells about a sunken land at about 152 miles either south or south-east to Kanyakumari, India.

Now:

Between 12000 and 10000 years ago massive 'Kadalkol' occured which was not recorded anywhere but explained through "ICE AGE"- Ice berg movement. Perhaps most parts of the kumarikandam plunged into water during this time.

U have just said that Kumarik Kandam was completly under water by 12 - 10,000 years ago. That's 10,000 - 8,000 BCE. But since the archaelogical evidence obtained from inscriptions excavated in 2005 dates the language itself to around 1000 BCE, which is around 3,000 years ago, isn't what Sujatha said possible? :)

Please correct me if I have any factual errors above. :) Waiting to learn from u.

Surya. 8-)

bis_mala

15th December 2005, 05:02 AM

stranger

15th December 2005, 05:21 AM

1000 BCE, which is around 3,000 years ago, isn't what Sujatha said possible? :)

Who is Sujatha?!

An archaeologist?! :roll:

Surya

15th December 2005, 05:36 AM

archaelogical evidence obtained from inscriptions excavated in 2005 dates the language itself to around 1000 BCE, which is around 3,000 years ago

Surya, if a stone inscription is dated to 1000 BCE, that does not mean that the langauge of the inscription is also of the same age!!

Dating a language is not the same as dating an inscription.

Mala,
That's what Archeologists have stated. It's not coming from me, or Sujatha. It's coming from archeologists, and linguistic phd's who have studies the lang. :)

bis_mala

15th December 2005, 05:48 AM

Surya, if a stone inscription is dated to 1000 BCE, that does not mean that the langauge of the inscription is also of the same age!!

Dating a language is not the same as dating an inscription.

Surya wrote

Mala,
That's what Archeologists have stated. It's not coming from me, or Sujatha. It's coming from archeologists, and linguistic phd's who have studies the lang. :)

Don't worry Surya, if the cap fits them, let them wear it. We have to be cautious with such Archeologists!! I know that you would not make such an error of logic. :)

Surya

15th December 2005, 06:01 AM

If Tamiz isn't 3000 or so years old as Archeologists have stated, then how old is it? I'm not saying that it's impossible for it to be more than 3000 years old! I just haven't read anything convincing to prove it to be more. That's why I was hoping to get more info from FS Gandhi about the subject. I was also hoping to get some Concrete evidence which proved Tamiz's age.

stranger

15th December 2005, 06:06 AM

Surya!

Do you know, Sanskrit is how many years old?!

Or, Latin is how many year old?!

Or, Telugu is how many years old?!

Or, Chinese is how many years old?!

I want to learn from you, Surya

Could you give with a # for these languages if you know them? Thank you! :)

Surya

15th December 2005, 06:11 AM

Stranger!

I don't!! That's why I'm here asking questions to FS Gandhi!! All I know is that I've been reading that Tamiz is 3000 years old, it's oldest piece of lit, which is the Tholkaapiyam, it's connection to "Kumarik Kandam" etc etc so on and so forth! I'm just here to get more info about Tamiz's origin, and it's connections to Kumarik Kandam.

I don't know how old Latin is!

Or telugu!

Or Chinese!

I want to learn too!!

As for ur urge to learn about Latin, telugu and Chinese...I appreaciate it! :) Enna oru Aarvam!! :tongueout:

bis_mala

15th December 2005, 07:16 AM

If Tamiz isn't 3000 or so years old as Archeologists have stated, then how old is it? I'm not saying that it's impossible for it to be more than 3000 years old! I just haven't read anything convincing to prove it to be more.

Archeologists !! in plural.

How many Archeologists have stated as you portrayed ? Where are they from? Where were their findings published? Did you get your materials directly from the journals in which the Archeologists published them? Were the statements of the Archeologists you read stated them provisionally or as conclusively? What were the merits of the statements which induced you into relying on them?

Please give us more information along the lines so that we can have a meaningful discussion!!

bis_mala

15th December 2005, 07:59 AM

What I'm going to say, I'm saying just to learn something. :D

Regarding Tamiz's History:

The earliest examples of Tamiz writing we have today are in inscriptions from the 3rd century BCE (Around 300 BC), which are written in an adapted form of the Brahmi script. The earliest available text is the Tolkappiyam, a work on poetics and grammar which describes the language of the classical period, portions of which date back to around 200 BCE. Archaelogical evidence obtained from inscriptions excavated in 2005 dates the language to around 1000 BCE.

Regarding Kumarik Kandam aka Lemoria:

Kumari Kandam is a legendary sunken landmass to the south of Kanyakumari, at the tip of South India. Kumari Kandam has often been compared and identified with Lemuria in modern times. According to Tamiz Tradition, the Dravidians originally came from a submerged island, Kumarik kandam, to the South of India. Epics like Shilappadikaram and Manimekhalai describe the submerged land mass. Also in Ayyavazhi mythology, the Akilattirattu Ammanai tells about a sunken land at about 152 miles either south or south-east to Kanyakumari, India.

Now:

Between 12000 and 10000 years ago massive 'Kadalkol' occured which was not recorded anywhere but explained through "ICE AGE"- Ice berg movement. Perhaps most parts of the kumarikandam plunged into water during this time.

U have just said that Kumarik Kandam was completly under water by 12 - 10,000 years ago. That's 10,000 - 8,000 BCE. But since the archaelogical evidence obtained from inscriptions excavated in 2005 dates the language itself to around 1000 BCE, which is around 3,000 years ago, isn't what Sujatha said possible? :)

Please correct me if I have any factual errors above. :) Waiting to learn from u.

Surya. 8-)

Surya, your post shows that you have amassed some wealth of "knowledge" (understanding or misunderstanding, whatever ) and you are in fact questioning FSG, for the claimed purpose of wanting to know more. So you are not a beginner wanting to learn. From the manner in which your post has been drafted, you have already taken a stand on some of the issues and that stand you have taken is the current basis of your questioning. Therefore, I would expect you to know most of the things I have asked in my last post.

You are in fact trying to show a contradiction between FSG, archeologists and the writer Sujatha. You have sufficient understanding in this area to ask //isn't what Sujatha said possible?// Therefore : You are not an innocent learner as it were!! You are a learned questioner, aren't you?

Archaelogical evidence obtained from inscriptions excavated in 2005 dates the language to around 1000 BCE.

What language? Language of the inscription itself or the entire Tamil language? Please reproduce the statement of the Archeologist.

Surya

15th December 2005, 09:21 AM

Mala,
The info I got several months ago in some site I came across. I knew there was a good chance for it to be false. ALTHOUGH I'M STILL NOT SURE IF IT'S FALSE OR NOT. I am quite sure that everything else in my post can hold water, I wasn't sure about the archeological findings in 2005. Although it looked convinceing when I read it a few months back.

That is why I said:

Please correct me if I have any factual errors above. :) Waiting to learn from u.

I am still not sure about the Origin of Tamil. I knew there were possibilities of that report being false. If it was, then I was hoping that SOMEONE, not just Mr. Gandhi, would enlighten me on it's origin with some concrete evidence.

You are in fact trying to show a contradiction between FSG, archeologists and the writer Sujatha. You have sufficient understanding in this area to ask //isn't what Sujatha said possible?//

My point was, If the info about Tamil being dated back to 1000 BCE is true, then since Kumarik Kandam went down under about 12,000 years ago, then wouldn't what Sujatha said be possible? That's all. :)

I'm still waiting for some well informed hubbers like FSG, or Mr. Aravindhan to enlighten me on the Origin of Tamiz, with come evidence! :)

Peace. 8-)

Sandeep

15th December 2005, 09:48 AM

bis_mala

15th December 2005, 12:58 PM

Mala,
I am quite sure that everything else in my post can hold water,

Quite = absolutely.(?) If you read my response posts carefully, I neither agreed nor disagreed with what you term as "everything else".

I am still not sure about the Origin of Tamil.

Yes, apparently!

I was hoping that SOMEONE, not just Mr. Gandhi, would enlighten me on it's origin with some concrete evidence.

Yes of course, concrete evidence can cement the lacuna.

what Sujatha said be possible?

Possible but not probable. But of course, you are waiting for FSG.
I do not want to hijack the issue now. Please by all means continue to act on the supposition that it is possible. Your favourite wirter allegedly said it after all. You are beholden to him as he has given you so many nice stories and entertained you all this while.
All the best.

I'm still waiting for some well informed hubbers like FSG, or Mr. Aravindhan to enlighten me on the Origin of Tamiz, with come evidence!

I asked for some evidence from you and posed specific questions (or rather a questionaire ) so that we can have a meaningful discussion. No evidence came anyway. Since you are unwilling, OK Surya. You can give them the evidence if they ask. (By the time you may be able to find it even if you do not have it now. ) I shall refrain ....

Peace. Cool

OK. Peace!! :)

bis_mala

15th December 2005, 01:32 PM

Guys many be of interest to you all.

George L. Hart,
Professor of Tamil
Chair in Tamil Studies
University of California, Berkeley

"Tamil predates the literatures of other modern Indian languages by more than a thousand years. Its oldest work, the Tolkappiyam,, contains parts that, judging from the earliest Tamil inscriptions, date back to about 200 BCE. The greatest works of ancient Tamil, the Sangam anthologies and the Pattuppattu, date to the first two centuries of the current era.

Please read this article where he explains why tamil is a classical language.

http://tamil.berkeley.edu/Tamil%20Chair/TamilClassicalLanguage/TamilClassicalLgeLtr.html

At the time, it seems prof Hart found it difficult to convince the Northerners on the antiquity of Tamil. It seems some in North India even said that Tamil cannot be more than a thousand years old. It was an uphill task for learneds like Prof. Hart. Fortunately he was a doctor in Sanskrit (now prof in Tamil) and the modest dates he gave in his submission were tolerated with difficulty.

The committee on this subject reduced the "antiquity" of Tamil to more than one thousand years old instead of more than 2000 years of the claimants. Otherwise Sans and other Ind. scholars would not agree.
No one fovoured Tamil to ascend the scale and the reasons were not related to linguistics or history.
Anyone to confirm the above info?

Sandeep

15th December 2005, 01:54 PM

--deleted--

F.S.Gandhi vandayar

15th December 2005, 02:32 PM

Between 12000 and 10000 years ago massive 'Kadalkol' occured which was not recorded anywhere but explained through "ICE AGE"- Ice berg movement. Perhaps most parts of the kumarikandam plunged into water during this time.

have just said that Kumarik Kandam was completly under water by 12 - 10,000 years ago. That's 10,000 - 8,000 BCE. But since the archaelogical evidence obtained from inscriptions excavated in 2005 dates the language itself to around 1000 BCE, which is around 3,000 years ago, isn't what Sujatha said possible? :)Please correct me if I have any factual errors above. :) Waiting to learn from u.

Nobody can deny that "Kumari kandam" never existed. There are enough evindances deciphered out so far to prove that "kumari Kandam" existed.

This is sufficient to formulate the theory that "Cradle of Civlilization" prevailed in "Kumari Kandam".

You can put it in the other way that the tamil inscriptions in urns so far found is belonging to 1000 BCE. There is a possibility of deciphering out more evidances in future.

This is the beginning of new history. This is the beginning to reach the exact evidances that you seek for.

Alexandar Kondarav in his book says that if Indian Ocean is researched further intricately radical results would come up.

Tholkappiam belongs to 1250 BCE not 200 BCE. According To The.Po. Meenakshi Sundaranar the grammar of 'Samanar'- inscriptions do not follow Tholkappiam grammar and it is wrong to fix Tholkappiam timeline based on that.

Scientific Analysis means Observation,Analysing & getting results. Causes of an event Should also been taken into consideration.

Tholkappiam refered lot of literature. This means lot of literature were available before Tholkappiam. Tholkaappiam is grammar book. Oral Expression starts first, folk literature starts second, writing starts third, organised literature starts fourth, and grammar at last.

From observing the past 3000 years languages evolution of world we can come to know for tamil it would take another 7000 years back to begin its evolution. This works out to more than 10000 years ago. The usage of Iron - 'Iron Age' known to tamil 7000 years ago as we can see the megolithic structures and vessels in archeology.

Trade links between China & southern India dates back to more than 10000 years ago.

Eminent historien Mr. Margen thus dates the civilizational timeline as 15000 years ago and timeline for forest life as 50000-15000 years ago. Sign language might have used during forest life. Hence we need not take Sujaatha's words as Vedha.

This is just like scientific "Milky way"-Big bang theory. Yet we have to move various milestones about light years and so like history.

This does not mean excavations so far done have not reached determined conclusion. The theory with strong base is formulated and we have to add parts to build up using some more Archeological findings.

f.s.gandhi

bis_mala

15th December 2005, 05:36 PM

Are you saying Prof Hart was lying with dates just to convince some people. He may be wrong (any scholar could be), but to suggest that he MANIPULATED with dates is demeaning to a person of Prof Hart's standing.

Please note that this was not his comment on some forum. It was his official letter to the Govt of India supporting the classification of Tamil as a classical language. He was not writing on his personal capasity but as the holder of Tamil chair in the University of California, Berkeley

[tscii:f94dc0a70e]Where did I say that Prof Hart was lying with dates convince people? This does not arise from my post.You are using the word lying with regard to a scholar and you may be defaming him indirectly by bringing up something that is not in my post. I said : At the time, it seems prof Hart found it difficult to convince the Northerners on the antiquity of Tamil. Please note that even today it is still difficult. I said : . It was an uphill task for learneds like Prof. Hart. This is still a fact. It is still an uphill task.

I said : the modest dates he gave in his submission were tolerated with difficulty. By comparison with other scholars, the dates Prof Hart gave were modest. But he may have honestly believed the dates he was giving to be right in all the circumstances of the case. When you give modest dates comparative to other scholars, it is not lying. I never said that he believed the dates to be something different all his life and then he adjusted the dates for the purpose of submission to the Indians.

YOU ARE DRAWING WRONG AND MISCHIEVOUS INFERENCES from my post and using my post to demean Prof Hart. You should not use words like manipulated. I did not use this word.

If I wanted to attack Prof Hart, I do not need you to do it for me. Do not twist a fellow hubber’s post and portray it to be an attack on the third party. You love to incriminate me by drawing suggestions and inferences which are not justifiable but if you fail (legally) you may be the party responsible for it. I did not use the word manipulated, lying etc.

What evidence do you have to say that it was an official letter to Government of India?

Are you implying that if Prof Hart had written in his personal capacity - with all his knowledge and scholarship - it would not have been even considered? Is that the correct implication? Is that a slur on him?

You also completely ignored that my post contained an information I received and that I was seeking confirmation of it. Why did you ignore the fact it was an information I got from other sources?

[/tscii:f94dc0a70e]

bis_mala

15th December 2005, 06:04 PM

From observing the past 3000 years languages evolution of world we can come to know for tamil it would take another 7000 years back to begin its evolution.

FSG you are right. A research team from Chennai Uni also found that much of the grammatical rules in Tolkaappiyam were already obsolete by the time the 3rd Sangam was in existence, as gleaned from Sangam literature. (From a book written by Prof AA Manavalan).

Researcher Sangara Pillai of Sri Lanka also gave the same dates as you have.

Researcher and Scholar VeLLaivaaraNar said that there is no way of pushing Tolkappiyam to later than 1500 BCE.

bis_mala

15th December 2005, 09:29 PM

continuing my last post.

Kamil Svellebelle has researched the Rig Veda and found 500 Tamil words in it. Hence Tamil is older than Rigkrit (Rig Veda language).

Devaneya PavaaNar did a further research and found some more, so altogether 800 odd. This confirms the earlier point.

Dr Sountherapaandian (Sanskrit scholar) found even more!!

M. Lahovery (a linguist ) found l/3 of Skrt vocabulary to be Dravidian and there are even more discovered as days passed by, by others.

Prof Hart's dating of Tamil was a prima facie opinion specific to the occasion for which his letter was written. Tamils should be thankful to him for the help he has given. I think if he had embarked on a linguistic research, it is a possibility that he would have reviewed his earlier opinion on the date of Tamil.

Whether scholar or not, if anyone reviews and updates his views in whatever circumstances, he is not necessarily lying or twisting, contrary what an emphead will think.. Only a dummy will say opinions are irreversible; if it were, no one can convince anybody on anything; all these forums will be useless; even Bush speaking to Congress will be useless; even Hart writing a letter to India on Tamil will be totally useless. FOR NONE WILL WANT TO CHANGE ANY OPINION HE HAD PREVIOUSLY HELD FOR FEAR OF AN ACCUSATION OF LYING OR FORGERY....

The Brilliant Statesman LEE KUAN YEW once said: " I always review and update myself".

Feel free to change your views on anything in the face of new /fresh evidence or submission or convincing arguments/proposals.

In European philosophy, only when a man (or woman) dies can his views become dictum, for he cannot change it anymore and if it needed change, he would have revised it during his lifetime. Consider the wisdom here!!

bis_mala

17th December 2005, 02:39 PM

Friends.

I am in deep meditation and prayers for peace.

Kumari Kandam was so unlucky, it went underwater. Discussing it, this thread is so unlucky that there are conflicts........

I pray that all conflicts may dissolve now, as did the soil of Kumari Kandam in the Indian Ocean!!

Let all conflicts dissolve so thoroughly that no scientist may be able to even obtain one iota of evidence that such conflicts ever existed on earth~

bis_mala

17th December 2005, 05:55 PM

Let's now look at something related to Kumari, in whose name the Kandam (continent) is referred.

If a proper research is carried out, we may be able to get more details on Kumari.

Some scholars have pointed out a connection between the Khmer (race ) and Kumari.

The Chinese have a deity named kwanyin. At times I have gone to kwanyin temple to pray. Kwanyin stands so majestic, beautiful with a Chinese face and pottu, like Indian girl. Prayer to her is done with lighted joss sticks the base of which held between your palms Palms will be as if you are saluting in the Indian way (kumbidu).

The root of kumari is kum. The root of the Chinese word is kwan.

kum > kun > kwan.

In Chinese too, words ending in -m in one dialect may end in -n in another dialect and may change to -an in another. I will slowly gather materials on this. I have to read more on Chinese linguistics which I am doing in my free time.

In Tamil too, words in -m can change to -n without change in meaning.
aRam > aRan and so many others.
Some words even undergo triple changes:

thiRal >thiRan > thiRam and the meaning does not change. If you have read sufficient poetry with alerted mind, you do not need any other to alert you to this. These are just simple changes.

So, kum >kun > kwan.

My belief is that kumari must have reached China in the remote prehistoric days of the Kumari Kandam.

bis_mala

17th December 2005, 07:58 PM

I am also interested in the similarities in the following word endings:

Comorin ( cape Comorin) - ~in

kwanyin - ~ in

kwanyin ending may not be -in but may be -yin Chinese language..
But I cannot rule out anything without further enquiry. Chinese language does not have "r" and if you have to transliterate comorin in Chinese, it would be: comoin or KOH MOH YIN.

Some Chinese dialect speakers pronounce as: kwanyim (im ending).

If you have knowledge of Chinese and able to help in the research, I will be most happy. You are welcome. Please pm me.

Some words undergo terrible mutilation travelling from one language to another. e.g.,

Bhodhisatva (Pali) > bosatsu. (Japanese). Note: dhi missing. va becomes su!!

bis_mala

22nd December 2005, 07:07 AM

I copied this sometime ago from somewhere but have lost the reference. Can anyone help:-

t is significant to note that, according to geo physical research based on the movement of the continental plates, the Lanka of Ravana was situated in the continent of Lemuria, also known as Kumari Kandam, which was a land mass, connecting the Deccan plateau in South India and the island of Ceylon, with intervening straits to be crossed, with Madagascar in the West, Australia on the East and Antarctica on the South, until it sank into the Indian ocean in stages over 3,500 years ago, as mentioned in the writings of the German geologist Wagner anti the eminent Indologist Sir T.W. Holderness.

The research done by Fr. Heras and Sir John Marshall the archaeologist and other scholars into the archaeological finds at Mohenjodaro and Harappa point to the existence of an earlier highly developed Dravidian civilization in the deep South which, had influenced the Indus-Valley Aryan civilization of the North.

bis_mala

23rd December 2005, 07:51 AM

From an account given by naavalar aRinjar abduR Rahim, in his introduction to Muslim Poets, (Universal Publications), the Tamil Land was the first place the first man (Adam according to MiddleEastern tradition) stepped his foot on when he descended from heaven ( or the land of origin of the first man - to put it in secular terms ). Tamil Nadu is called "Santhib" in Arabic texts. The mountain where the first man roamed was until recently known as Adam Mount. (I do not know if this name has now been changed). He united with Havva (Eve) in Jeddah and indulged in family life in place there known as Arafat. They returned to Tamil Land and had children.

There are two tombs located in Rameswaram said to belong to Cain and Abel, the children of Adam and Eve.

All these proves the antiquity of Tamil and Tamil Land, most probably Kumari Kandam .

The Illustrated Weekly of India. Vo. LXV/No.43 Page 25 refer.

Thus the Earliest Arabic connection with South Asian region was with Tamil Nadu or the then Kumari Kandam. As Tamil words have gone into the Northern Languages including Sanskrit (see M. Lahovery's book ) and also have been found in Arabic (see Swami Njanaprakasam's works) , it is not suprising to find words common to Arabic and Northern because all those words came from the common source Tamil.

bis_mala

23rd December 2005, 09:03 AM

To add to the above:

It has been said that the last King of KeraLa, known as sEramAn perumAl sailed to Arabia and there, probably married an Arab Lady. Hence all kings of KeraLa who took the crown after him always took it "till sEramAn returns". These words were actually said aloud before crowning.

Subsequently, more connections were established between Arabia and South India. The contact point was Tamil Nadu /KeraLa. There have been substantial inter-ethnic connections between Arabs and the locals in KeraLa. Any inter-flow, linguistic , culture or otherwise, was between South India and Arabia. In this there was an obvious disadvantage for the land-locked regions of North India.

Uppuma

2nd January 2006, 12:27 PM

Friends,

I had downloaded an article of review of book by ; but contains a lot of scientific ideas, against Kumarikandam-Lemuria etc.,
Extracts from T.R.Sesha Iyengar's "Dravidian India"
by Dr. Samar Abbas, Bhubaneshwar, 4/8/2003

The survival of a Dravidian language in Baluchistan must indicate that the Dravidians came into India through Baluchistan in pre-historic times. Whether they are ultimately to be traced to a Central Asian or to a Western Asian origin cannot at present be decided with absolute certainty; but the latter hypothesis receives very strong support from the undoubted similarity of the Sumerian and Dravidian ethnic types. [ftn. Cambridge History of India, Chapter II, Vol.I ]" (Iyengar 1925, p.52)
He states that Dr. Chatterji agreed with this view: "Dr. Chatterji says, `The Dravidians look like being a Mediterranean people coming out of Crete and passing through Asia Minor and Mesopotamia, where they were in close touch with the Sumerians and the Elamites; and possibly these latter were related to them and the Cretans. Then they came ... into Sindh, whence they spread into the interior of India.' " (Iyengar 1925, p.57). He cites further authorities:
Iyengar's scientific research is impeccable. However, he erred in citing researchers on the Lemurian continent (p.24-25), a sunken mythical landmass some occultists claimed existed south of India. Oceanographical research has laid to rest any such claims. However, it would appear Iyengar himself was not a total believer in this hypothesis, and instead favoured the now well-established Afro-Elamite origin of Dravidians (see below)

Foreshadowing McAlpin's establishment of an Elamo-Dravidian linguistic family, our savant notes, "According to the theory of Elamite origin for the Dravidian races, India was originally occupied by two batches of Elamite invaders, one taking the sea-route by the Persian Gulf and settling on the west coast of India, and the {p.28} other choosing the land-route through the Bolan Pass and occupying North India. The theory is based on the Puranic myths of the deluge and the Ark common to India and Elam, and on the so-called philological identity of words in Tamil and Accadian tongues." (Iyengar 1925 p.27-28) This should lay to rest any speculation that Iyengar entertained the unscientific Lemuria theory.
However, it would appear that the Sumerians instead entered Mesopotamia from Africa, then spreading to the Indus Valley Civilization (Winters 1979

"Fane H. (1979) has even postulated, on a mass of archeological and other evidences, the possibility of a common origin of Sumerians and Dravidians somewhere in the Zagros mountain region. More interesting are the studies of J.V.Kinnier Wilson (1974) who has postulated the possibility of a common language and culture between Sumerians and the people of the Indus Valley civilization. He has attempted to interpret the Indus script along these lines." (Loganathan 1988, p.45)
"The Sumerians said they had originally come to West Asia from magan and Meluhha, which are identified in Assyrian inscriptions as the archaic names for Egypt and Punt-Arwe (which encompassed the modern countries of Ethiopia, Somaliland and southern Arabia). Magan is assumed to be Egypt because the Sumerian sign for this country is certainly an Egyptian pig. The identity of Meluhha as Punt-Arwe is supported by the fact that this country was far away from Sumeria and had to breached by sea, and the type of trade goods which included ivory. We know that the exporters of ivory at this time was Punt-Arwe, and not India, because Indian ivory was of poor quality due to the shortness of thir tusk." (Winters 1979, p.1106)
Also the word Tamil itself seems to be an evolute of Dumuzi, one of the most celebrated gods of Sumer....
Dummuzi > *Dumuli > *Tamuli > *Tamul > Tamil"
(Loganathan 1975, p.59)

Article has a lot of points, not in line with actual scientifice truths in other places; but these are interesing.
PLEASE DISCUSS
Uppuma

bis_mala

3rd January 2006, 04:07 AM

Opinions on earth --
There are one hundred and one;
What you really preferred --
That's the one you'd say has won.

Eelavar

5th January 2006, 06:13 PM

bis_mala,

I'm agree with you. The so-called Kumari Nadu should be Ravana King's Kingdom.

It is said that Ravana's city is located in south of Lanka underwater.

When this continent began to sink, the ice which covered entire Europe began to disappear..

So the level of sea began to rise, and finally the water recovered Kumari Nadu.

In fews centuries when there will be another glacial time, we will able to see this sunken continent..

But we cannot wait , we have to do research now .

If we find concrete proofs of the existence of Kumari Nadu, so the History should be revisited and rewritted...
Human civilisation hisory go back to 12'000 B.C...

A time, there was a more developped civilisation than our today..
It disappeared because the humans didn't know how to use their technologies, as today... USA and Russia today have enough nuclear bombs to destroy the Earth hundred times...

Our civilisation will disappear nearer..

There is no doubt, human believe that he can control the nature, but in fact , nature should not be controlled ..

pavalamani pragasam

5th January 2006, 06:21 PM

Quite true!

devapriya

9th January 2006, 07:16 PM

bis_mala

9th January 2006, 08:07 PM

MALA WROTE:

Opinions on earth --
There are one hundred and one;
What you really preferred --
That's the one you'd say has won.
_________________
B.I. S~mala

Mals You are correct you do not want any scientific opinions but only what you want, that too all proved out of date.

Ocean research, Satelite views clearly has proved the Kumari-Lemuria fables totally false.
Sangam Lit. to Silapathikaram does not have it either.

Why perpetuate myths?
devapriya

Any scientific evidence of Lord Visnu's activities during Pralayam and Uuzhi?? Any scientific evidence of manu and his flood?? Do you believe them?

stranger

10th January 2006, 04:54 AM

Ocean research, Satelite views clearly has proved the Kumari-Lemuria fables totally false.

Could you give me the references here :?:

Or we just have to buy whatever you say! :roll:

ramraghav

11th January 2006, 09:01 AM

bis_mala

11th January 2006, 03:52 PM

Yes!! If great floods generally - agreed. I want to drive the point that natural disasters have been taking place continually since the time our planet fell off from the sun and started revolving on its own!! Kumari Kandam submergence is just one of the many such disasters probably at the tail end of such great disasters. This was the reason for the concepts of uuzi and praLayam found in Tamil and Sanskrit literature............At the rate they are going, some may even deny that tsunami had taken place!!

Kumari Kandam is denied so as to deny Tamil its antiquity. It is an ideology-driven argument.

P.S. Science is hardly perfect. Highly developed as it is, it has still no complete prevention or cure for a simple thing such as common cold. They can't even get rid of all the mosquitoes in the world. For 20 years, my neighbour was given gastric medicine only to find out recently that he had all the time been having cancer, now beyond any redemption. Satellites and rockets would not fail if science were that perfect. Every day they are learning as indeed all of us are. Have they recovered all the ships that sank in the Indian Ocean for archeological research??

stranger

11th January 2006, 08:19 PM

* Science is hardly perfect.

Untrue, may be a bad scientist's contribution is!

Highly developed as it is, it has still no complete prevention or cure for a simple thing such as common cold.

You dont need to spend your valuable time and effort to synthzise sucrose or morphine as they are available pletnty.

Common cold can be easily taken care by your immune system.

Why waste billions to find a cure for it????

A wiae scientist knows that it aint worth his time!

They can't even get rid of all the mosquitoes in the world.

You cant get rid of anything in the world including ignorance!

If one idiot goes, another one will show up!

It is always balanced!

For 20 years, my neighbour was given gastric medicine only to find out recently that he had all the time been having cancer, now beyond any redemption.

Finally science must have helped to figure out whether it is cancer, ironically!

bis_mala

11th January 2006, 09:22 PM

You cant get rid of anything in the world including ignorance!

If one idiot goes, another one will show up!

It is always balanced!

Hmmm, I like that .................

karuvaadu

12th January 2006, 12:40 AM

You cant get rid of anything in the world including ignorance!

If one idiot goes, another one will show up!

It is always balanced!

Hmmm, I like that .................

Me too! Especially ignorance!

KoH is gone and karuvaadu appeared! :lol: Ain't that fine StranGWer?

bis_mala

12th January 2006, 05:19 AM

You cant get rid of anything in the world including ignorance!

If one goes, another one will show up!

It is always balanced!

Hmmm, I like that .................

Me too! Especially ignorance!

KoH is gone and karuvaadu appeared! :lol: Ain't that fine StranGWer?

Quite a feat tho!! For the yr 2006, I'll be very happy to see some good contributions from you. Indulge in Kumari Kandam research, may I suggest!!

stranger

12th January 2006, 05:23 AM

So you figured out, karuvaadu is indeed an "old fish"! :lol:

That is impressive! :thumbsup:

Sandeep

12th January 2006, 11:25 AM

What kind of civilization existed in KK.

(a) Form of governence
FSG mentioned that there where 49 countries in KK. What more do we know about these countries ?

(b) Art and literature
FSG provided link on Lumeria (KK) says that the advancement in language (in Lumeria) didnot go beyond mono syllabic phace and that "The Chinese language of to-day is the sole great lineal descendant of ancient Lemurian speech". So did the language spoken in KK have script ? Was there any other art forms? Was there any education system

(c) Belief system
Did they believe in any supernatural power or where they nature worshipping ?

(d) Defence (internal and external)
There where 49 countries ? So did they have war between them ?

(e) Economic system
Was it barter system or had coins evolved. Did they do agriculture or domesticate animal or where they surviving on hunting wild animals (in which case there is question of trade)?

(f) Technological advancement (Tools, weapons, housing)
FSG said "There are some weapons which are unique to the Tamils". The example given is that of boomerang ???

(g) Who inhabited the present day land mass called India?

(h) Most importantly what is the timeline of human existance and development in KK?

karuvaadu

12th January 2006, 06:05 PM

Quite a feat tho!! For the yr 2006, I'll be very happy to see some good contributions from you. Indulge in Kumari Kandam research, may I suggest!!

Okay, then let me start with KK-research:

Suggestion: Karuvaadu was a well know dish in KK!

I recently heard in a documentry that East Africans (Djibutti - Somalia - Ethiopia Area, I am not quite sure which country) were not capable of conserving fish for a long time as it easily gets spoiled. So they caught fish only for daily dishes. But now they know about karuvaadu but I don't know if they call it karuvaadu too. But it is posible they do. In Kisuaheli they say Daktar for a doctor and Schule (read shuuLe in tamil) for school, aquired from german missionaries.

FSG could say something more in this matter I guess!

F.S.Gandhi vandayar

8th February 2006, 01:50 PM

[tscii:584ae36798]
What kind of civilization existed in KK.

(a) Form of governence

(b) Art and literature

(c) Belief system

(d) Defence (internal and external)
There where 49 countries ? So did they have war between them ?

(e) Economic system
Was it barter system or had coins evolved. Did they do agriculture or domesticate animal or where they surviving on hunting wild animals (in which case there is question of trade)?

(f) Technological advancement (Tools, weapons, housing)
FSG said "There are some weapons which are unique to the Tamils". The example given is that of boomerang ???

(g) Who inhabited the present day land mass called India?

(h) Most importantly what is the timeline of human existance and development in KK?

Dear Sandeep,

All of your questions are scientific.

The land of ‘Kumari kandam’ might have gone. But the remains of kumari kandam are available with present tamil land’s archeology and literature. You can get answers for your questions from there and in various threads I have expressed them already. I may write more quoting literatures to specifically answer your queries.

The sunken kumari land can be further researched to get more proofs. The remains of kumari kandam still prevails in south India particularly Tamil Nadu & Kerala. The first and second sankam literature has been plunged except Thokappiam of Second Sankam.

But the Third sankam literature in its beginning stage (around 800 BCE) contains the remains of kumari nadu. Tholkappiam & Third sankam literature refers first and second sankam literatures.Third sankam lit. also contains Indian ancient history which I may write in some other thread. Chandal / Sankirt Rig Vedha also contains messages about Kumari Nadu. I may write about that later.

The “porunai valley civilization” contains that remains of Kumari Nadu. Sakore (1854) researched well and still research is going on.

“In a society, before an empire forms, the people must have formulated on the basis of lands” – by Mark Engels- in his book – The beginning of Family, assets, Government etc.

The first example for this is found only in ancient tamil culture as five lands formation.

“ To know the origin of tamils from kumari kandam who are Indian inhabitants We have to reject the Aryan Invasion theory which was propogated & and at last left by Maxmuller.”- in his book - Origin and Spread of Tamils – Prof. Ramachandra Dikshithar.

Hence, We have to inspect not only tamil literature but also Vedhic literature. I may add some more messages regarding this in my future postings.

During 600 BCE Persian Empire captured Sinthu Valley. During 400 BCE it came under Greeks rule. Till 200 CE they overrule that area. During this period ‘Pachachi tamil turned paly & prakrit which in turn formulated Sanskrit during 100 CE. This is the formation history of Sanskrit.

Present Indo-European Classification is wrong one. The resemblance between Tamil & Greek –Latin and between tamil- Sanskrit are far higher than between Sanskrit &Greek-Latin. This shows tamil antiquity.

There are 42 dialects of tamil all over India including Hindi and other Dravidian languages.

Not only in India. The world contains unshrinked direct dialects of tamil like malayaalam, kongu tamil, mathurai tamil etc.as follows:

Read as Sl.No., Nation, Name, The person who research witnessed.

1. Greek – Thermil – Prof. S.K.Sattarji
2. China – Ki-mo-la – Prof. S.K.Sattarji
3. Russia- Ki-mo-la – Prof. S.K.Sattarji
4. Greethath - Thermilar- Prof. S.K.Sattarji
5. France
6. Italy - Thaamore- Prof. Piliyosa
7. Portugal
8. France
9. Tibet - Thiramilar- Prof. Gundard
10. Paluchistan - Prahuei & Thamida - Prof. Gundard
11. Afkanistan - Thamur - Prof. Filalasa
12. Mexico - Thamur - Prof. Filalasa
13. Australia - Thamaali - Prof. Neelakanda Sastri
14. Gana - Thamaar - Prof. Neelakanda Sastri
15. Egypt - Thomur - Prof.V.R. Ramachandra Dikshitar
16. Kampodia - Thamir - Prof. Thevaneyap Paavaanar
17. Syyam - Thuma - Prof. Thevaneyap Paavaanar
18. Malasia - tamil,Thomida - Prof. Thevaneyap Paavaanar
19. Indonesia - Themilik - Prof. Gundard
20. Malae - Thaamuri -Prof. Piliyosa
21. Maarthinika – Thaamuri - Prof. S.K.Sattarji
22. Moriththivu - Thaamuri - Prof. S.K.Sattarji
23. Moreeya - Thaamuri -Prof. S.K.Sattarji
24. Giana
25. payiththi
26. Kuvaarthelapu
27. Vietnam
28. Rayunian Island
29. Anreelchith Island
30. Puthukkalithonia
31. Quiet
32. Trinidat
33. Tobocco
34. Pisi
35. Andaman -Thaamuri -Prof. S.K.Sattarji
36. Rottesia
37. Surinam
38. South America - Thaaman - Prof. S.K.Sattarji
39. Uganda
40. Japan

Apart from five Dravidian languages Kudaku,Thudam, Kodam, Kondu,Kantham,Rasamahal,Oorolaan, Maaya, Bojpuri, Konda,Munda , Kodari are some of other Dravidian languages spoken all over India for which tamil is the mother.

Hence, With this background we have to look into Kumari Naadu & Indian history. Let us see further in my future postings.

f.s.gandhi

[/tscii:584ae36798]

Uppuma

11th February 2006, 10:03 AM

Karimnagar, Feb. 4: Hurt by the Centre's refusal to grant ancient language status to Telugu, renowned scholars and historians have presented new evidence to prove that the language is at least 4,000 years old. The overlooked historical nuggets brought out by scholars would give added strength to the agitation by literary organisations and political parties to achieve ancient language status for Telugu.

Both Tamil and Sanskrit had recently been conferred ancient language status by the Union government. Apparently realising that this had hurt people's pride, the State government has decided to collect all relevant manuscripts to stake a similar claim for Telugu. Historians and literary scholars have made the government's job easier by drawing attention to forgotten facts that prove the long history of the language.

Though conventionally Telugu is supposed to date back to the 11th century AD, scholars say that there is enough evidence to prove that it is thousands of years old. Dr Sanganabatla Narsaiah, noted scholar and principal of the Government Oriental Degree College in Dharmapuri, points out that clay tablets belonging to 700 BC excavated from Mesopotamia (now in Iran and Iraq) contained traces of the primitive form of Telugu words.

"Experts like Edward Thomas had established the link between Dravidian, Brahmi and Cuneiform scripts," he said. "Prof. James Edgar Swain had traced the trade ties that flourished between the Telmun region in India and the Babylonian and Assyrian kingdoms in Mesopotamia region since 300 BC." Sumerians claimed to be Telimans who had migrated from the Telivaha river banks. References made in the Buddhist epic Sheravaniya about Telivaha river lend credence to the belief that the river was Godavari.

"This proves that Telimans hailed from the region spread along the Godavari river in the Telugu heartland," he said. Excavations at Ur city in Mesopotamia and discovery of primitive Telugu words such as Abba, Ser and Aqqu in the cuneiform tablets corroborated this theory.

The Telimans who migrated from the Godavari belt carried with them another Dravidian language, Brahui. The language, similar to Telugu, is prevalent among migrant communities in the borders of Pakistan and Afghanistan, he said.

Similarity of megalithic graveyards unearthed during excavations at Markuk of Manjeera valley with burial sites discovered at Kirkuk in Iraq substantiated the fact that Sumerians hailed from "Telugu land" and the language spread overseas thousands of years ago, he contended.

According to scholars, the criterion adopted by the Centre in granting the status was unfair. Instead of depending on manuscripts alone, the government should take a more comprehensive view, they feel.

Telangana Writer's Forum District President D. Narahari Acharya said that the Centre should also peruse ancient inscriptions found at at Godisala, Sanigaram and other places which gave valuable information on the evolution of Telugu script. Meanwhile, the Telugu Desam is also planning to spearhead a movement to achieve ancient language status for Telugu.

http://deccan.com/home/homedetails.asp#Scholars%20see%20Telugu,%20Mesopot amia%20link

F.S.Gandhi vandayar

11th February 2006, 03:15 PM

Thanks. Dear. Uppuma :!: Atleast you have come towards Dravidian from you arrogant posture as Vedhic Pratogonist.

f.s.gandhi

F.S.Gandhi vandayar

12th February 2006, 06:14 PM

The remains of ‘Kumari kandam’ spread all over Indian sub-continent and West Asian Countries. ‘KUMARI MYNTHAN’ a noted scholar of world repute and expert in tamil & Sanskrit research wrote many books about Kumari kandam. I have got a part of one of them. I share the results of his findings in abstract form with our hubbers.

Inthiran & Varunan in ‘Tholkappiam’ are refered in Rig Vedha. The close relationship with chola & inthira and the enmity between Inthira & pandiya is said in ‘Silapathikaram’(a tamil epic).

Historiens say that Inthiran, White elephant & Sugarcane are related to Inthonesian Islands. These Islands were called as Nan Mathurai / Moola mathurai (Su- Mathura-sumathra later),Paalai (poly) & Porunai (purunae).

Rajenthra chola inscriptions (1000 CE) shows that A group of Islands were called “Elemuria”. This means from time immemorial (not yet fixed) the name lemuria for kumari land existed.

In ‘Manimekalai’(an tamil epic) Manimekalai’s last birth story says that In ‘Kanthara’ nation a part called “Puruva theyam’ which was ruled by king Athipathi and 400 osanai(a tamil measurement like SQ meter) land of Naka nation would plunge into ocean and hearing this, the king Athipathi with his animals & people reached North Avanthi nation’s ‘Kayankarai’ river banks.

River ‘Kayankarai’ was river ‘Kokra’ which run in sinthu valley but perished into ‘Thar’ desert of Rajastan. The same river is named after for a branch river of Ganga.This present Kanthara in Afkhanistan is named after ‘Kanthara’ the sunken land of kumari kandam. Pandiyan’s race was ‘Puruva’. This shows Kumari kandam people migrated towards north Gujarat during ocean floods and then migrated to north,north West and North east directions.

During this period Vedhic hymns were formulated orally / verbally. There are lot of unidentified places in Vedhic hymns which could be the names of Kumari kandam.

World languages should be regrouped based on this.

Historien ‘Hirottas’(400 BCE) gives this following message.
‘Finisheans’ who went from South Indian West coast and reached Persian Gulf, left seeds of language and culture in Gulf countries and reached Asia Minor which was the base of present European culture. Finisheans gave language and culture to Greeks also.

In a story of West Asia ( TOUCH GOLD STORY) the ancestor of ‘odipapacin’ was ‘karaiththamus / kadambus’ and he was a finishean. It must be noted that ‘Kadambas’ who refered in tamil Third sankam literature were koduntamil-vaduka kannadikaas who were great sea-farrers in those days.

‘Paraliyaru’ which is the name derived form of ‘Pahruli yaru’, a sunken river in kumari kandam, was named for the rivers of south India, in tamilnadu kumari district two, Salem district one and Kerala two.

Srilanka was called as ‘Naka theevu, Cheran Theevu & Tamira parani’. Present Tamira parani was called pornai / cholan Aaru.

From tamil puranas we come to know that In kumari kandam seven small groups were there.Heads of them were seven women. They were called Ezhu kanniyar / Ezhu thaikal / Ezhu kumarikal (Seven kumari). Then these groups were headed by seven muni (Ezhu munikal). All were headed by Inthiran / Venthan. This shows the transformation of ‘Women headed society’ to ‘men headed society’.

The same story is given in Viyasar ‘Mahabharatham’ Nakusan story. In Egyptian story which is refered by Joseph Kampel in his book MASKS OF GODS – PRIMITIVE MYTHOLOGY’ also has the same story. This shows further the migration of men from south to North & South to North West.

Kumari kandam people grew from small groups depending upon lands & materials acquired. The culture variation occurred due to this.

‘Kurinji’(mountain) people mingled without marriage and dispersed. Cattle acquirement was the main motto of wars.

‘Mullai’ (forest) people mingled with short term love and dispersed. Wars were carried out for grass land for their cattle.

‘Neithal’(Sea land) people did not have permanent set up of family since husbands never return as they went for new countries.

Palai(desert) people robbed the materials transferred from Kurunji and mullai.

This created the importance of marriage and marriage rituals were formulated.

‘Marutham’ married women much worried about their husband going behind their concubines and prostitutes.

Wars were carried out to capture the forts of large wealth. Battles did not stop till big empires were formed.

‘Tholkappiam headings Alphabet (Ezuthu) & Word (Chol) did not get altered when Porul(material) got changes to incorporate the changes in society.

According to ‘Maulana’, the author of “SETHU TO SINTHU” Adam & Eve lived in Ellam (Ezham – Sri Lanka). His son was Sethu. The water junction between India & Sri Lanka was named after him. In Viviliam(Old testament) Coin was killed by his brother Abel for woman. This resembles story of Vali & Sukreevan.

In kumari kandam Women ruled as Inthirani. Silappathikaram’s pandiya Kalmuthalli, Thiruvilaiyadal puranam- Thadakai Pratti, Folk stories Alli,Pavalakkodi are good example for that traditions.

Kumari kandam got good material success. Kuberan Cult is essential. His cart is Naran(man).

Kumari people had imaginative scientific temperament to achieve in the world.

1) 64 arts were developed. Entering & flying into the sky, Stopping fire,water & Air are some of them.
2) In tamil literature & Puranas there are topics about Kantharvar, Eyakkar & Vinjayar. They were sky flyers. Eravanan was called as Eyakkar. Ravana’s Uncle was identified as inventor of flight and he was ‘Achura thachchan’ as per puranas.

I may write further when I get remaining portion of this article.

f.s.gandhi

happyindian

10th April 2006, 02:08 PM

Dear FSG,

Your write-up is extremely informative.

bis_mala

11th April 2006, 01:53 AM

FSG ayya,

well done again. keep it up. very informative.

Eelavar

12th April 2006, 12:09 AM

Sir F.S G.V good job, i'm astonished by your knowledge.

Where do you do all these researches ?

jenraj

22nd April 2006, 08:46 AM

Yes,

Sir F. S G V, Kindly provide me with location as where you get such detail.

I am ardent observer of the blog. Please Sir.

Jenraj

devapriya

22nd April 2006, 10:34 AM

Friends,

I would be thankful for those spreading these stories, to date those legendery floods and its source in Literature and Scientifically acceptable proofs, instead of just mytho9logical interpretations please.
Devapriya

mahadevan

23rd April 2006, 03:36 AM

Every body who can understand a little science can find ample proof for the great floods that took place 1000's of years back. Solomon, please try to learn some basic sciences then you may understand the evidence. This not vedic stories buddy, to not have any scientific basis.

F.S.Gandhi vandayar

7th May 2006, 12:33 AM

Dear Eelavar & Jenraj,

Many indian researches are uncared. My last message is oriented on the research works done by 'Kumari mynthen' published in Thenmozhi' Magazines- 2003.

It is available in 'Pavalar libruary' situated in Medavakkam, Chennai.

Since I am being here in Saudi Arabia for the past 1.5 years, I could not visit the libraury.

Here after I will give references regarding Kumari kandam in my future posts. Thanks,

f.s.gandhi

devapriya

9th May 2006, 10:24 AM

Friends,

As per Iravatham Mahadevan the Indus Saraswathi Valley's continuity is more maintained in Sanskrit and Present Tamil tradtion has nothing to do with it.

We do not have any Siva Lingam or even name "Siva" in Tholkappiyam and Sangam Lit.

Devapriya

mahadevan

9th May 2006, 10:20 PM

Hi Friends
Friends,

As per Iravatham Mahadevan the Indus Saraswathi Valley's continuity is more maintained in Dravidian elements that is why he proposed that the language spoken by he indus valley people as similar to Tamil and Past,dead sanskrit tradtion has nothing to do with it.

We do not have any Siva Lingam or even name "Siva" in any of the vedas.

devapriya

10th May 2006, 05:17 PM

Feiends,

I have already given that Shiva is a Sanskrit word, with clear Sanskrit roots with the Verbatim from Cambridge uNIVERSITY Scholar and Tamil Siva is a Tamilised form Shiva.

The name Siva does not appear in Sangam, Tholkappiyam or Kural or Silapathikaram and Manimekhalai.

Sivalingam is not mentioned in any of this .

Let me quote Iravadam Mahadevan in my next post
Devapriya.

FloraiPuyal

10th May 2006, 09:16 PM

Eelavar

12th May 2006, 02:58 AM

F.S.Gandhi vandayar,

How is Saudi Arabia ? Do you get a job easily there ?

F.S.Gandhi vandayar

18th May 2006, 12:34 AM

F.S.Gandhi vandayar,

How is Saudi Arabia ? Do you get a job easily there ?

It is easy to go to Saudi Arabia. Interviews are not tough. Bombay is the best place to have more interviews. I came through chennai interview.

Saudi arabia still believes in old values and so new technology receival for saudis become very slow and hence South Asians like Indians particularly Keralites,Srilankans and Philiphinoes who are eminent in computer and new technology have good opportunities here. You can come through Lebonon or French interviews to Saudi Arabia if your are staying in western world.

Saudi Arabia is holy place and so you cannot expect wordly entertainments which are more or less banned here.

Saudi Arabia is an orthodox muslim country, saviours of Makkah, Methina- muslims holy places & 5 times 'Challa'(Worship) in a day compulsorily is followed up.

Death penality, for drug trafficking, Brothels and rape crimes, is given according to 'Shariyath law'. Wine shops and any form of alchohol are banned.

I am not frightening you. Saudi laws prevents them. But illegally the above are going somewhat.

Ms. Sivamala and Mahadevan pose well arguments to tackle repeated lies of Vedhic pratogonist-various avatars of solomon- as their forefathers did it earlier in history which are obsolete now. I also wanted to give some truths but could not do frequently.

I may post some well-knit passages soon.

Thanks Mr.Eelavar, Ms. Bismala and Mr.Mahadevan.

f.s.gandhi

devapriya

21st May 2006, 02:35 PM

We have not got a Single city like strutcure dating earlier than 1000BCE, and Adichanallur is still to be Carbon14 dated.

Why Perpetuate myths.

Devapriya

Eelavar

21st May 2006, 03:24 PM

devapriya,

The myth of Mahabalipuram is not just a lengend...

http://www.grahamhancock.com/features/maat_methods-p5.htm

http://www.grahamhancock.com/underworld/underworld7.php

This site is dated back to about 6000 BC...

Do you want photos ?

bis_mala

22nd May 2006, 05:15 PM

Ms. Sivamala and Mahadevan pose well arguments to tackle repeated lies of Vedhic pratogonist-various avatars of solomon- as their forefathers did it earlier in history which are obsolete now. I also wanted to give some truths but could not do frequently.

I may post some well-knit passages soon.

Thanks Mr.Eelavar, Ms. Bismala and Mr.Mahadevan.

f.s.gandhi

Job comes first and we know u r busy. No hurry. We'll be happy to see you at the forum when u r free n can afford the time. After all, Solo's issues have remained the same and substance has not varied much over time. Pl do come in but at your own time. That would suffice. . Thank you so much for your many instructive and illuminating posts. Cheers

bis_mala

22nd May 2006, 05:35 PM

I have already given that Sva is a Tamil word, Shiva is a Sanskritised form Siva the Tamil term.. The Cambridge scholar referred to is sadly mistaken.

The name Siva does not appear in Rig. Therefore, hybrid Sans prayer compo artificial language has no claim to the word. .

The word Sanskrit is from roots "samai" + "katham". = concocted or cooked up ( refined thereore) sounds.

samai > sam.

kath(thu) > katham > kritham.

Please refer to old posts in the forum. Others have explained it already.

Eelavar

23rd May 2006, 12:52 AM

Sina vavanaa...
in two letters (but 3 characters).

Is it not the shortest god's name ?

Edit: In fact not because , 'Jah' venerated by Rastafarians is written in one Tamil letter (janaa)...

bis_mala

23rd May 2006, 02:01 AM

Sina vavanaa...
in two letters (but 3 characters).

Is it not the shortest god's name ?

.

"maal" (thirumaal) --- even shorter. ( in poetics, 2 1/2 maaththirai only -- in Tamil).

srivatsan

24th May 2006, 12:12 AM

The word Sanskrit is from roots "samai" + "katham". = concocted or cooked up ( refined thereore) sounds.

samai > sam.

kath(thu) > katham > kritham.

Please refer to old posts in the forum. Others have explained it already.

I appreciate your guts of talking (oops actally blabbing :D ) so loud about something, which U hav no idea about.

samai > sam.

kath(thu) > katham > kritham..

First of all it is not "sam" or "samay". It is the first form of "Samyak" which means "Well" or "Good" or "Perfect"

Secondly it is not Katham or "Kritham". It is Krutham, which is the past participle form of do verb. This is one "Avyaya" or Porul for Samskrutham.

Ms. Sivamala, try to give something constructive instead of shoering hatred. This is what almost all your posts show.

Atleast FSG proposes his own theory or his own interpretation of available resources. Everybody has the right to do so, whether it is correct or not. He or persons like him, I think, will humbly accept, if their interpretation is worng. But I have not seen any original or meaningful post from you, but for "few YES SIR" type of posts. I think people like you are the curse to Thamizh. God save Thamizh from such persons.. :) Good luck with your hatred campaign!

FloraiPuyal

24th May 2006, 12:20 AM

siva is definitely from tamil. sivam = red / color of fire. Ancient tamils thought of all natural forces as gods. fire and water are the chief forces that played with their destiny. fire or the color of fire was fearsome. So they associated siva with destruction. since rain from sky is the chief source of water, they called vinnavan/vinnu and associated him with protection, as water is the source of life. In fact every god in hinduism could be related to specific forces of nature.

srivatsan

24th May 2006, 12:25 AM

FloraiPuyal

24th May 2006, 02:31 AM

Simple, it was the period when we still had some forests :) and fire was the chief source of destruction. Remember, we still have colonies of huts that are destroyed by fire. Destruction by water is very scarce.

To please these gods, they came up with some primitive methods of sacrifice - many of us still believe in sacrificing a lemon to save our lives - dont we? As we can expect, the growth of siva worship is much more than that of vinnu worship just because he (fire) is the fiery one and he has to be pleased.

Even the word lingam ( from tamil ilangu -> ilingam -> lingam ) means bright light or something similar to that.

The root word for siva is sol which in tamil means to shine ( european solar - originates from this.) siva - god who shines; sivappu - color of shining (object); sonnam - that which glitters - gold; solam - crop that is bright - maize; solai - place that glitters - garden; sothi - flame;

Since the flames appear as if to dance, siva got another name natarasan - lord of dances.

FloraiPuyal

24th May 2006, 08:25 AM

happyindian

24th May 2006, 11:17 AM

"Krit" in Sanskrit means "to do / to have done" (Kritam also means "to have written / to have done" -- both derivatives from Kuru - meaning, to do). "Kri" as a verb needs a suffix / prefix. Eg: KRIda means 'play'.

Plz note the 'tra' maatra may not exist in Tamil. Therefore 'Kra' or "Kri" may not be a sound used in Tamil as well. So how cud u get the meaning for KRIT from Tamil?

"SAN" is a root word (mool maatra shabd) for anything respectful / refined / pure / noble . Like "SANmaanam" (felicitation / giving respect), etc. I fail to understand how it cud be associated with cooking. Perhaps the interpretation is cooked!!

Basically "Sanskrit" means "to do noble / refined / respectful speech".

None of you are giving the meaning for the sound SAN in sanskrit from Tamil but talking abt derivation from SEN / SEM. Plz note in Sanskrit you cannot change the syllabal sound like Tamilians do. It is common to see in Tamil, that sounds are substituted -- eg: Ta for Da, Pa for Ba, etc & vice -versa. Such a provision is v.rare in Sanskrit as the Uccharanam (way of pronunciation, decibel sound / pitch, etc) is fixed and expected to be proper. That is why priests spend so much time simply perfecting their pronunciation.

Well other languages can be interpreted in one way or the other from one language. But changing its derivative meaning and in some way changing its entire meaning is not a good idea.

As for the word Shiva, every Yoga book says Shiva was the original master of Yoga; and Shiva comes from the word Shava, meaning "a dead body". 'Shiva' suposedly is a neutral-gender term and perhaps that is why Shiva is Ardhanareshwara (Half-man, Half-Woman; the original symbol for yin-yang and the Gnosis concept of man / woman being incomplete without the other). Not suprisingly, the word iva is also the word for eve (eve is also known as eva). Dan Brown must know this :lol: (Da Vinci Code anyone?)

Yet, Shiva had his mind so much in control that even a snake wud not bite him (snakes don't bite the dead). So as proof of his perfect mind control (like that of a dead man) he wears a snake around him. That's some example of procreation without any sense of pleasure, must say :? . If the whole world followed that example the human race wud be extint by now :)

Similarly what you may interpret from Tamil for words such as Vishnu, Skanda, Vinayaka, etc may be right from your point of view (everyone is entitled to an opinion after all). But just remember it may also have another derivative and another meaning from the point of view of another language; which is why it is there in that language in the first place.

FloraiPuyal

24th May 2006, 12:49 PM

happy indian (h.indian?) i agree with you. please go ahead with your explanations linguistically, explaining morphology, word formation, similarity between words, words originating from those roots, relation of words to their meanings, evolution from meaningless sounds. Everyone can have their opinion and should express them. Please go through the link I had given, explain your views. That is what a debate is for.

srivatsan

24th May 2006, 07:55 PM

In fact what Ms. Mala said is true, though samai is not the root word.
sanskrit was initially called senkatham = sem + katham. sem is the root word and it means perfect (eg., semmozi, senthamiz, semmai paduthuthal, samai - to cook or to make perfect) . kal is the root for katham and one of its meanings is to talk (kallu - kathu, kathai - story, kaththu - to talk loudly, katham - language ). So senkatham means literally perfected language.
senkatham - sankatham - sanskrutham.

A little bit of linguistics and you will know that the earliest roots should have been monosyllables - like am, kam, sam etc.. For tamil and sanskrit, both being perfectly agglutative in nature, we can find the roots. Only in tamil can you trace the roots upto monosyllables. In sanskrit, when we try to trace the roots, we end up halfway with multi-syllabic words, which indicate they cannot be the original roots.

As I showed you in the case of siva, a lot of words sounding similar can be broken to roots and they perfectly can be explained with help of tamil. But the same is not possible with sanskrit.

I had already posted a reply to kannann explaining a possible evolution of language from south to north

http://www.forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?t=6806&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

I am not against sanskrit but sorry, it doesnt just fit the curve. :)

Perhaps for the very first time, I think, I am seeing a decent explanation about Samskrutham, by a Thamizh abhimani...
Well..coming to your interpretation May be pandaya Thamizhargal might have called Samskrutham as "Senkatham"...but the word Samskrutham is from the perfect grammatical formation of Samskrutha roots, Sir...I am sure about this......

but I appriciate your approach...well done.... :)

I am not against sanskrit but sorry, it doesnt just fit the curve. :)

Well....As I have learned Samskrutha vyakarnam(Grammar), I know that all the roots of the words that I know, is either mono syllable or a sound associated with nature's sound. (example:- the samskrutha name for rain is varsha and the root is "ssh", which sounds more like the sound of rain, then with help of Soothrams mentioned in Vyakarnam, you can arrive at the word "Varsham") This you will and can understand only when you read Vyakarnam.....I would suggest, not to jump in to conclusion......If you're interested in learning, let me know.

bis_mala

24th May 2006, 10:40 PM

I fail to understand how it cud be associated with cooking. Perhaps the interpretation is cooked!!

Yes, enjoy yourself for the time being Mr Happyindian. You are happy and that is good.

"Cooking" here figuratively refers to the refinements into the language introduced over 2 or 3 centuries after the Christian Era.

The Tamil word "samai" has several meanings and nuances which must be obvious to anyone having some knowledge of Tamil.

"samaithal" also has a slightly different meaning compared to "samaiththal". Eitherway, the morpheme is "samai".

Of course, samai can be further traced back. I shall not go into that now.

From samai, Sans pundits extracted the root "sam".

When you cook you put things together and "cook". Thus the derived meaning of samai is to put things together, to formulate etc.,

samai , -- mutilate the word and obtain sam. (This also can be explained a different manner, but I would not go into that now.) The usual manner in which Sans obtained its roots from Tamil whole words.

Now, how could katham become krutham or kritham. (u or i - these changes are ignored).

Look at another Tamil word: methu sanskritized as mrithu or mrithu.
Same pattern of change.

Thus you get samskrith or samaskrutham or sanskrit (however presented). sanskrit is of course anglicized.

Just enjoy it. If the Sans pundit 2000 yrs ago wanted to formulate words in this manner, what could you and I do about it!!? At that time, Tamil was a major language having a large word bank.

Sanskrit is an Indo-European language and there is no equivalent or corresponding terms in IE languages for this word "Sanskrit" itself. So it is without a doubt a word concocted from the Dravidian.

Sivan is a Tamil word. No IE corresponding term. So Dravidian.

happyindian

25th May 2006, 07:58 AM

OK Mala fine, you can keep it your way.
1) If you think Sanskrit contains the word cooked, let it remain cooked :)
2) If you think Shiva is a Tamil word, you can have it.

The truth is, meanings and derivative come from our own mind like they did in our ancestors. Its not necessary they are the only meanings / derivatives. There may be many other ppl offering many more versions to a particular word's origin from many more languages world-wide.

You need not agree with those versions, but there is something called 'diff ways of thinking' so you cud perhaps try & accept that yeah other versions may exist too (ofcourse it does not mean they are always right or that you accept those versions).

When others accept that 'oh in tamil it means this way', I do not c what's wrong in accepting other's point of view. Surely thats no fun way of learning.

bis_mala

26th May 2006, 04:28 AM

Well....As I have learned Samskrutha vyakarnam(Grammar), I know that all the roots of the words that I know, i................................................. .................If you're interested in learning, let me know.

Yes, only you know, the rest do not seem to know, that's very good.to know

srivatsan

26th May 2006, 05:24 AM

Yes, only you know, the rest do not seem to know, that's very good.to know

What kind of stmt is this? I dont know how to take this....

are you happy that many others do not know? or you think, it is bad that someone has learnt Samskrutha Vykarnam or is it good atleast I know or what do you mean by this....? please explain....

For your kind information, all the 60 other students who passed 10th standard with me knows this, in addition, all those students who passed 10th standard from my school since its inception in 1945 learnt this and all those students who are going to pass 10th from my shool will learn this. Also other schools which has Samskrutham as first language will know and in addition, all those who passed and will pass graduating in Samskrutham will know..... :) . Is there any problem for you in this? :)

devapriya

29th May 2006, 10:34 AM

[tscii:95ab964c89]Latest Researches take back North India to 15000 BCE . and I shall give them over time.

http://tinyurl.com/8wx5e

Older civilisation than Indus found

Vadodara, Jan 21: Recent excavations in parts of Haryana, Uttar Pradesh and Pakistan have made the Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) believe that a developed civilization possibly existed in the region in the 6th millennium BC, assumed to be older than the Indus valley civilisation.

According to ASI Director Dr B R Mani, the civilisation, believed to be much older than the Indus civilisation of the second and third millennium BC, stretched from Iran in the west to North Bengal in the east.

Dr Mani, who is here to attend a two-day international seminar on 'Magan (the present Oman) and Indus civilisation,' said till now the Indus and Harappan were considered to be amongst the world's earliest civilizations, but the relicts found during the recent excavations provided some evidence regarding existance of about 7,000-year-old civilization.

''Excavations at Lahuradeva site in Uttar Pradesh, Mehergadh in Pakistan and Haryana have led to recovery of pottery, cultivated rice and other artefacts dating back to that period,'' the ASI director said, adding that further research and excavations were on not only by the ASI but also by concerned state agencies and different universities.

Harappan city ruins found
Special Correspondent, The Hindu, Feb. 21, 2006

CHANDIGARH: Archaeologists have discovered the ruins of a city dating back to the Harappan civilisation at Farmana Khas, about 12 km from Meham on the Julana road in Haryana.

Terming the discovery as significant, a spokesman of the Haryana Archaeology and Museums Department said here on Monday that it was the first city of the Harappan civilisation found buried in Haryana. It was evident from the nature of settlements and richness of antiquities found at the site that the city belonged to the Harappan era. So far, towns dating back to this civilisation — Banawali, Bhirdana — and the village of Kunal have been unearthed in Haryana but this is the first time that the ruins of a city have been discovered.

The spokesperson said the discovery, known as Daksh Khera, was spread over an area of 32 acres and the ruins were under a three-metre hillock. Keeping in view the size of Daksh Khera, it appeared that it would have been a city of the Indus-Saraswati or Harappan civilization. The city would have been located on the banks of the Yamuna, which is believed to have passed through the area in ancient times.

http://www.hindu.com/2006/02/21/stories/2006022103711400.htm

Ruins of Harrappan city found in Haryana
Chandigarh, Feb. 20 (PTI): The ruins of a city believed to date back to Harrappan civilisation have been discovered near Meham in Haryana, the State Archaeology and Museums Department said here today.

A department spokesman termed the discovery at Farmana Khas, about 12 kilometers from Meham on Julana road, as very significant.

He said that till now urban settlements of the civilisation -- Banawali, Bhirdana and Rakhigarhi -- had come to light in the state, but this was the first discovery of the ruins of a city.

He said the site of the discovery, popularly known as Daksh Khera, was spread over 32 acres and the ruins were under a three-metre high hillock.

He said the city would have been located on the banks of the river Yamuna, that could have been flowing through the area in ancient times.

Ruins from the Harappan era have also been found at Sanoli in Uttar Pradesh along the ancient course of river Yamuna, he said.

Retired Kurukshetra University professor Suraj Bhan, had observed that in ancient times, river Yamuna used to pass through the state at Indri, Karnal, south-west of western Jamuna canal, Mittathal, Tigrana, Tosham and then towards Nohar Bhadra.

Ahead of Tosham, the course of the river is covered by sand ruins.

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/001200602201742.htm

Devapriya[/tscii:95ab964c89]