Indians in Trinidad

[Oldposts]

Topic started by Archie Ramdoo (aramdoo@usa.com) (@ ool-18bac9bf.dyn.optonline.net) on Fri Feb 28 18:50:58 .


I would like some information on the migration of Indians to Trinidad in the West Indies.
Year migration began...names of the ships...ports of departures.

[Oldposts]

A lot of the Indians in Trinidad and Guyana come from Uttar Pradesh and Bihar, and the rest come from Tamil Nadu. Guyana has majority of Indians with Tamil background.

[Oldposts]

It seems to me that the Tamil origin people in Guyana had lost their language/culture etc. Now, the Hinduism they practice is of the North Indian variety. Why is this?

[Oldposts]

Some Guyanese people still have links with Tamil worship...

[Oldposts]

p,
>>Some Guyanese people still have links with Tamil worship<<

Oh?? Please explain more on this one. Thanks!

[Oldposts]

I have some Guyanese friends, they still worship Murugan (not as Skanda or Subramanya) but as Tamil Murugan.

[Oldposts]

is there any proof that people in Guyana and Trinidad some are really from Tamil Nadu? Majority of them have facial features of North Indians not South Indans and also most of them from what I know have parents or great grandparents who speak Hindi and other north inian languages?

[Oldposts]

There was a guy whose name is Mahendra Nagamootoo in WI cricket team. He is definitely a South Indian

[Oldposts]

Anyway, tharsiini said that majority of Trini and Guyanese people have north Indian features, well that is just bullsh*t, I've seen some west indians that look PURE Tamil, some even have the last name as "Kalimootoo", "Pillay", "Naidu"(Tamil or Telugu), and even Andhra origins as "Rao". Lot of them lost their real identity as far as what region they are originally from, and their original language. I have a Tamil friend, and everybody thinks he is from Trinidad, I'm telling you, it is all a mix, but a good percentage of that mix is pure Tamil, skin color and features prove it.

[Oldposts]

O.k fine, but isn't so weird that most of them lost the Tamil language and I find all of the Trini or Guyanese people always say that of course their Indian but from North. I didn't come across anyone that is from southern part of India.

[Oldposts]

Tharsini,

I have met many Guyanese and Trini people that say they have origins from the south, like their father's side being from Tamil Nadu, and mother's from north India or something. And a lot of them have north Indian last names, but they still say that they have "Madras" origins. Either way, a lot of them have the distinctive South Indian Dravidian (mainly Tamil) look, and with surnames as Perumal, Kalimootoo, Marimootoo, Pillay, Veeren, and mixed names like Natarajan Singh, shows the origins. Not only that, if you look at the history of Guyana and Trinidad online, they clearly show you Tamil origins. Guyana obviously has creolized English(closer to Jamaica's patois), and languages like Urdu, Hindi, and Tamil. Either way, west Indians are very familiar with the terms "Madras" and "Tamil".

[Oldposts]

Interesting. Looks like a reverse phenomenoa of what is happening in Malaysia. Out of the 2 million Malaysian of Indian origin, 1.6 million are Tamils. Even the minority Malaysian Indian groups like the Malayalees, Telugus, and even many Sikhs & Gujaratis speak Tamil in addition to the national language ie. Malay and English. Some can even can speak Chinese (Cantonese or Hokkien) and regional Malay languages like Kelantanese or Jawi, as they call it in sothern Thailand.

There are 3 groups of Tamils in Malaysia; 1. The historical Malacca Chitty of 5,000 people - Tamils who can trace their arrival way back in the 13th Century - Malaynized speak Malay (not Tamil) but practice Hinduism and have Tamil names; 2. Tamils who came over to Malaysia in the late 19 & early 20 Century from Tamil nadu - now about 1.5 million of them, and 3. Tamils who came over from Jaffna, Ceylon in the late 19 & late 20 century - about 100,000.

[Oldposts]

Archie Ramdoo---->Ramudu? Sounds like Andhra origin.

[Oldposts]

I have yet to see anyone say roughly when this migration from India to Trinidad occured. Can anyone give a rough estimate.

On another note please don't worry about Hindu worship or language origin etc. The truth is there is no authoritative and conclusive evidence today about what constitutes Hinduism or Indian land (north south) or Sankskrit language influence etc.

Like my mother who believes she is a Hindu but teaches me only thirukurral and knows nothing about the Vedha or Gita.

Like my father who gets angry if I say refer sanskrit characters. He says that by dropping so called sanskrit charactors (used for ages by Tamils), we are not just losing a character but a complete "sound". we are reducing tamil not enhancing it.

So I say let us proudly say that people who like us are all over the world and let us try to reach out to them.

Note: I have yet to see a trinidad citizen join this forum. Can anyone get connected to them.

[Oldposts]

Here is some info:

http://www.caribbeanhindu.com/Trinidad.htm

[Oldposts]

Here is better info regarding Tamil:

http://www.rajkumari.org/indocaribs.htm

[Oldposts]

Some west indian cricketers' name sound like Tamil:

Sarwan - Saravanan
Chanderpaul - Chandrapalan
Nagamootoo - Nagamuthu

[Oldposts]

////Some west indian cricketers' name sound like Tamil:

Sarwan - Saravanan
Chanderpaul - Chandrapalan/////

Sarwan and ChanderPal are North Indians.

/////Nagamootoo - Nagamuthu////
He might a Tamil.

[Oldposts]

Mahendra Veeren Nagamootoo- Definitely a pure West Indian Thamizhan.
Also, West Indians carry names such as Pillay, Perumal, Naidoo, Natarajen, Kalimootoo, Mootoo, etc.

Here is a website that shows true info on the real origins of West Indians. There is no doubt in mind that many west Indians are Tamil by origin, many look PURELY Tamil.



Toronto-lime.com



East Indian Arrival
Chutney music came with the arrival of East Indian indentured laborers to the Caribbean. They were brought by the British as a replacement for the enslaved laborers on the sugar plantations, who were freed after emancipation. The majority of the indentured laborers came from the Indian states of Bihar, Uttar Pradesh, Bengal and the South Indian areas around Madras. Although some scholars might be under the impression that most East Indians came from the Bhojpuri region of North India, this idea is simply not true. A simple analysis of some of the songs in East Indian music, particularly 1970's "Nana & Nani" and 1993's "Bangalay Baboo," will clearly prove this idea wrong. The words Nana and Nani are South Indian words from the Madras area, while Bangalay Baboo literally means Bengali Baboo, or someone from the Bengal region of India. Therefore, it is only fair to say that the majority of East

http://www.toronto-lime.net/music/articles/the_history_of_chutney.htm

[Oldposts]

guyanese indians speak hindi/bhojpuri words when they speak guyanese ( yes guyanese is a language....go ask the surnamis) so tyhat tell you that they are from north east india...nani....chamar...pherha....pagli......hijr a....etc. are all north indic words....booya.

alladin

[Oldposts]

neel,

And a lot of Guyanese people claim that one of their great grandfathers or grandmothers are Madrasi. And another thing, if you go to many websites regarding Guyana, it says Urdu, Hindi, and TAMIL are languages spoken in Guyana. Not only that, many Guyanese Tamils have given up the Tamil identity long ago because they were afraid to be called "Madrasi", and the ironic thing is that they were originally referred like that by coolie chamars of Bihar! The identity crisis of the West Indies is the same in FIJI! Many people don't want to be referred as Tamils, and speak Hindi, but KAVADI AND THEEMITHI, which are 101% pure Tamil festivals are practiced by ALL INDIANS!

[Oldposts]

I am a Guyanese you guys could ask me questions so it could help you and me understand where we came from.

[Oldposts]

What I could tell You is that 10 % of guyanese is from Madras

[Oldposts]

See website I think ut should be helpful. http://www.saxakali.com/Saxakali-Publications/recastgwa.htm

[Oldposts]

Sridat,

10%? That cannot be true, I know many Guyanese people, and they tell me they have "Madras" in either their mother's or father's side of the family. Not only that, many have origins from Andhra Pradesh, another South Indian state.

[Oldposts]

Most Guyanese and Trinny people that I know care very little for their Indian roots and find pride in being Guyanese or Trinny. They will even be offended if called Indian.

[Oldposts]

Mike:

Very nice to hear that. After all, to those people who came as indentured laborers, the 'pride' of being Indian mattered very little. After all mother India could not provide for them. Mother 'Hindu' India, in most cases, did not even think of them humans.

Wait.. Who does mother India represent? Who does mother India provide for? People like those who sought refuge in far away corners of the world, in alien lands and harsh conditions, are THE INDIANs.

When you said those people of Indian extraction find pride being Guyanese or Trinny, could you care to explain why?

[Oldposts]

Sridat Rambarran is surely from Madras.

He is actually Sridar Ramabadran.

[Oldposts]

Hi guys, I dont think any of you guys know anthing
about the Tamil Culture in Guyana. As far as I am concerned Tamils in Guyana has maintained their Cultural Traditions to this day since their Forefathers left madras over 175 years ago. As a matter of fact a lot of the old traditions and customs have changed a lot in India, in Guyana these traditions has been preserved. Yes there are a lot of Tamilians who converted to christians, look at the state of Kerela. Guyanese who migrated to the USA still carry their old traditions with them. There are "madrasi" temple all over New York.

[Oldposts]

Hello to all! I'm from Peru and I just want to say that I was fortunate to visit Guyana and I LOVED it. I was there for two weeks. I love your beautiful people, your culture, food, etc. I will definitely go back.

[Oldposts]

India disturbed over crimes on Guyanese Indians -Joshi

Stabroek News
August 17, 2002

Related Links: Articles on race

Letters Menu
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India has observed with grave concern the recent developments in the country in which a number of heinous crimes have been committed on members of the local Indian community.

In his speech on the occasion of the 55th anniversary of India's Independence on Thursday, India's High Commissioner to Guyana, Dr Prakash V. Joshi said crimes committed on members of the local Indian community have caused "much unease and unhappiness" in India.

Commenting on the current situation in Guyana, Joshi gave the assurance that the government and people of India stood by the people and government of Guyana at this juncture.

The Indian government has also renewed its invitation to President Bharrat Jagdeo to visit India. "We are eagerly looking forward to your visit," which he said would give major impetus to the growth of cooperation between Guyana and India in various fields.

The Indian government, he said, would be willing to play any possible role to ensure maintenance of democratic institutions in Guyana and that all its communities are able to live and work in peace and harmony.

Reviewing activities over the past year, Joshi felt that the sharing of a common understanding and perspective was reflected in the heightened tempo of economic cooperation. Bilateral trade, he said, stood at US$6.3 million against US$2.75 million a few years earlier.

He announced that very soon, India would hand over "a mobile vehicle which will be used to train people in rural areas in various aspects of agro-based industries."

In the cultural milieu, Joshi said, "we continued our efforts to project different facets of India's culture and heritage through special programmes and music, dance, etc, rendered by students and teachers of our cultural centre."

Expressing thanks to the local media, particularly the television channels for excellent cooperation in this area, he said he had little doubt that they contributed in further bringing the peoples of Guyana and India together.


A © page from:
Guyana: Land of Six Peoples

[Oldposts]

Its is bad enough that Indians in Guyana have to cope with how their are viewed by some of their Indian counterparts in India, but worse is that they are harassed and killed by another race in Guyana.

Here is another story:

"I could be killed in Guyana because I am Indian" - Ryan Shah
By Binoy Thomas

Racism here is normally associated with the Black and White situation, especially in North America where due to historic reasons the Blacks have always been seen to be the victims of this foul attitude. And yet if you ask the Indians of Guyana who their tormentors are they would point to the local Blacks. Strange, but true. For decades now, according to several observers, Black on Indian crimes have gone unpunished. What's worse, according to the activists, they have gone unpublished. The world media has other more pressing stories. This is a small country with a small population ruled by a Marxist oriented government headed by an Indian! "The irony is that it is this Indian government that has failed to take any action to curb the ethnic violence," says Ryan Shah of Guyana Indian Heritage Association (GIHA), a group of people who have banded together to fight the racist violence internally and at the same time bring the world's attention to bear up on events in the tiny South American country.

Shah wrote recently, "It was one year ago, July 2002, that GIHA started to speak against the ethnic violence in Guyana. Following the July 3 atrocities by PNC (the African Guyanese party now in the Opposition) 'protesters' in the streets, a female victim who had been robbed, cuffed, stripped, cursed and molested along with a friend on New Garden street by a gang of African Guyanese men came forward to tell her story on television. That mini-documentary made an impact. For the first time, people in Guyana heard first-hand the horrors of the race hate that exists in Guyana. No newspaper or television station ever reports it. And always significantly absent from the streets when 'protesters' take over to beat up on Indians are the police. No one has ever been caught and arrested for these crimes. Shortly after the documentary was aired, an African Guyanese bandit cut off Anita Singh's long hair to words of race hate, and this further horror of cultural rape was the catalyst that decided our agenda: to fight against all odds - they are formidable - to put an end to these atrocities in Guyana."

"It's the Indian government that tell the community to sit down and take it. 'Bear all you can, do not retaliate', they tell the people," Shah told the Voice. This passive attitude, she says, has not worked and has only emboldened sections of Blacks to be more active in their harassment of Indians.

Guyanese Indians were originally taken there by the British as indentured workers beginning early nineteenth century. The Black community, which were there earlier, by no means native to the place, resented the arrival of the Indians. "There is no difference in their attitude today," says Shah. GIHA has published an exhaustive report on the state of ethnic violence in Guyana titled 'Indians Betrayed'.

When Shah and others speak of the Indian government, they mean the one in Georgetown, Guyana. The Progressive People's Party that draws its electoral support from the majority Indian community is in power currently. The Indians form nearly 50 per cent of the population in Guyana.

Ryan Shah who is currently in Canada drumming up support for the cause of a 'governance change' in Guyana, says she became an activist almost by accident. After having lived abroad for years, she decided to go back in 1997 to lend a helping hand to her father who was 77. It coincided with a major election related riot. What she saw happening there made her determined to fight the menace of Black on Indian violence. "It was not until I went back home that I realized that you could be killed just because you're an Indian. And this has been going on since the sixties," says Shah. And they see the government of President Bharat Jagdeo as a major obstacle to real progress. Shah and others would like to see a 'shared government' in place where both Indians and Blacks have a role to play. "We have an Indian government that is in denial. This denial actually works for them. The Indian government in order to retain power says 'we're a multi-ethnic party'. This violence is in their interest. As long as the Blacks keep beating upon the Indians, the Indians will keep voting for the Indian party."

The GIHA crime report enumerates hundreds of attacks that include, kidnapping, looting, armed robbery, murder and rape of India women. The report asks: "During the daily protests and riots of 1998, and again in 2001 when Indian businesses were targeted and Indian civilians were molested, beaten, robbed, raped by Black youths, Black children, Black men and yes, Black women who handed over their Indian women victims to Black men, where were the Police? Who could believe that with the marauding hordes roaming the streets looking for their victims, the police would somehow manage to make no significant arrests? Not in January 1998, not in June 1999, and not again in 2001! The police either looked on merrily and thereby participated, or turned away and thereby participated."

Guyana's Police and Army are almost exclusively Black. And that, many feel, is the reason why the Indian population have not risen up in more violent ways. In South America, riddled with violent popular movements, Indians in Guyana are an oddity. They have been passive in the face of extreme provocation. But there are increasingly vociferous demands for the need to do something, and soon.

Shah says the Indian community is getting more and more demoralized. "I was talking to a man whose wife was raped by two Black thugs. Even he will tell you what can the government do? They are completely demoralized."

Over the decades, Guyanese Indians have been leaving by the droves for foreign destinations and today; there are an estimated one million of them abroad, mainly concentrated in the New York area and Toronto. There are perhaps as many Indians abroad as those still in Guyana. And if this continued state of siege lasts, then more will get out.

When asked about the possibility of a partition of the country, Ryan Shah, "That has been discussed. But that could only be the very last resort. We want to see a shared government that would protect both communities. Partition can happen only if both parties determine that it's impossible to live together."

You can reach GIHA at giha@futurenetgy.com Telephone 592-223-6385

[Oldposts]

Lot of Guyana and Trinidad people look pure Tamilian/South Indian, except they adopted N. Indian names, I know for a fact a lot of them have Madras background, therefore, they are just like us South Indians.

[Oldposts]

To Indians, there, you cannot conqure hate by hate. You have to be creative.

[Oldposts]

The other good thing you can do is to NETWORK. Establish a Network of South American Hindus spread across Guyana, Suriname, Trinidad and Tobago

Use this website

http://www.caribbeanhindu.com/

[Oldposts]

Read about Tamils in Carribbean countries in
www.intamm.com (You have to download webtamil font to read this page)

http://www.intamm.com/countries/caribbean.htm
<a name="last"></a>

[pannairaj]

-deleted-
spam

[Guyana]

How to rationalize:

Before any Indians of 18th Century return to India, they must consider:

1. How would they be viewed by Indians and Tamils;
2. They (the returnees) must have their lines of defense to:
Ø Run away low caste
Ø Did all low caste leave India (was Indian ever cleansed of low case)
Ø How better or worse of are the caste in India compared to the so called run aways
Ø Low caste in India and elsewhere that look down on 18th century returnees, should be viewed as even lower, having in mind that low caste may have left India initially, but in 19th century, people of all caste left India.
Ø *Off springs of high or low caste that left India though enslaved, found much more dignity and pride than those of which they left behind, so who is to call who low?
Ø Its worse to be left behind and found to be lower in pride and dignity in one’s own mother country of birth. From what we have seen and came across, we know that this is the case. Yet, these are the said people with loud mouths calling 18th century returnees, low caste and off springs of slaves when they themselves are seeking to leave their mother country in present times and nothing to justify why they were left behind;
Based on all the above, it seems that it was the brave and strong (mentally and physically), willing to take risk and face challenges that left in the 18th century, the very lot that made the way for the new comers who mock them.

[Guyana]

Really meant for "Fijians return to India" thread.

[Guyana]

You would not want to see a Trinidadian here. They are in no better position than us Guyanese. I posted the views of one and soon after the thread was gone. I opended another and excuse was given to keep that locked although I can't get into my old ones due to hub migration. I shall wait. But in the meantime here is my response to the locked thread in which a message wa sleft, but I can't reply to:


What do you mean by "sweeping abuse of people"? Facts are facts, especially when they are relevant in counter statements and arguments, however ugly they look. That does not constitute "sweeping abuse" and that also is not my problem. When the going gets tough, the tough gets going. Then the threads are removed. I will now send copies of the last two to the authorities for review including the one of today with the last post, for a second opinion.

The admins have been leaving all the attacks for everyone to view against us people. It is my turn and for my people to see them all and the continuation. I don't think they are finished with me, its only quiet since I have involved the right authorities.

The Guyanese people have already said this is happening out of pure ignorance of the people from India and related territories. Now you want to sweep it under the carpet and expect harmony.

You will NOT be allowed to run such a forum of Indian History and Culture. It means that you have been a silent supporter of the alliance against Indo-Guyanese and you promote such activities on this forum which has been running for two years now which explain a lot more I am prepared to divulge to my community. I will ensure one way or the other this mater is appropriately dealt with.

cc: Prakash Singh at Guyanese Civic Association
cc: GOPIO
cc: The Indo-Guyanese mail in Toronto

PS.

If I am advised not to come back here in the circumstances, I wouldn't. But I will ensure that this problem is dealt with elsewhere. That is probably the most appropriate step. You better save the threads, cause you will have to account. Don't take GOPIO and others for granted because they have the strain of achieving certain objectives which can be conflicting at this time. And don't take us for granted where we often have to take the abuse, put our tails in our hindlegs and stay quiet, having or being forced to consider India is a Land where our forefathers came from. You should know for this very reason, I covered many shame for Indians from India - I refused to talk of some of my own experiences and you are talking about "Abuse"?

[Guyana]

Why is this thread different from the one I posted in, in response to a particular post that reads: yet to see a Trinidadian here. Must be something to do with the old and new hub.

[HindustaniLadka]

[tscii:b985fd762a]
How to rationalize:

Before any Indians of 18th Century return to India, they must consider:

1. How would they be viewed by Indians and Tamils;
2. They (the returnees) must have their lines of defense to:
Ø Run away low caste
Ø Did all low caste leave India (was Indian ever cleansed of low case)
Ø How better or worse of are the caste in India compared to the so called run aways
Ø Low caste in India and elsewhere that look down on 18th century returnees, should be viewed as even lower, having in mind that low caste may have left India initially, but in 19th century, people of all caste left India.
Ø *Off springs of high or low caste that left India though enslaved, found much more dignity and pride than those of which they left behind, so who is to call who low?
Ø Its worse to be left behind and found to be lower in pride and dignity in one’s own mother country of birth. From what we have seen and came across, we know that this is the case. Yet, these are the said people with loud mouths calling 18th century returnees, low caste and off springs of slaves when they themselves are seeking to leave their mother country in present times and nothing to justify why they were left behind;
Based on all the above, it seems that it was the brave and strong (mentally and physically), willing to take risk and face challenges that left in the 18th century, the very lot that made the way for the new comers who mock them.

I highly doubt Indians who migrated forcefully or willingly in teh 18th century to otehr countries would have any trouble if they returned to India. People in India are generally accepting of others and this caste discrimination crap is dieing down. I never even heard the word caste the last time i was in India(i went to villages and cities...and no one really seemd to care about caste). [/tscii:b985fd762a]

[Surya]

The whole thing with the Caste Discrimination of returning indians seems very farfetched. I mean, come on! Who the hell is even going to know? Caste Discrimination isn't very hot in India anymore, but that's a different issue.

Like HL said:
Indians are very accepting. We don't have a prob with Lankan immigrants coming in, why makes these ppl any different? :)

[lordstanher]

Like HL said:
Indians are very accepting. We don't have a prob with Lankan immigrants coming in, why makes these ppl any different? :)

I agree! :wink:
As for lankan immigrants tho, its poss' most of our ppl. (outside TN) don't even know tat they r coming in....? :?

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear Guyana, :)

From your recent posts ( I don't know about your old posts) I understand you discussed about the "discrimination" and its proportions. Nothing hazardous happenings are here in India. Especially, Tamil Nadu is peaceful place to live with when comparing other states because lot of social movements came into being to curb the discrimination.

Now the 'discrimination' is identified only in marriage. Indian laws are enough now to fight the discriminations.

How is the conditions of Indians in Trinitat and Guyana now ?

Can you explain more ?

f.s.gandhi

[Guyana]

F.S.G

I am still re-cooperating. Hope you were following other post which could in the meantime, be answers to your questions.

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Thank you, Continue your postings :)

[avii]

to old post

well it certainly took a long while but finally i'm here , a fifth generation trinidadian indian with a strong passion for indian culture and religion (and food !!!)

[goodsense]

Hi Avil, same here being a Guyanese. But some people here find it hard to believe. By the way, that's me up there as Guyana, just in case you didn't realize. :D Why my user ID changed :( a long story you will come to know in time. :(

[avii]

to goodsense


well its good to know that wherever indians went , their culture and traditions remained strong and intact , no matter what part of the globe they went.