ராஜாவை அதிகம் பாதித்த இசை வல்லுனர்கள்

[app_engine]

He is a maestro with a lot of creativity - no questions about it.

Lot of music flowed from "inside" and were his own "inventions" - not disputed.

However, like any human artist, he had drawn his inspirations from many sources and got influenced as well. At different levels and degrees during his "30+ years-and-still-running-strong" career.

Let's discuss what his inspirations / influences were / are and how it affected his music.

[app_engine]

I thought of opening such a thread this morning when the 'junior - iru manam koNda thirumaNa vAzhvil' song jumped into my mind involuntarily, while taking bath.

It's possible this song jumped into Raja's mind as well, when he sat to compose 'AttamA, thErOttamA' of captain prabhakaran:-)

The last line of the saraNam of AttamA seems to be very close to 'mudivaichcholli sirikka koodAthA' of the ventriloquist. Even the 'AttamA' is close to 'jooniyar' :-)

[Devaraagam]

App,

Good thought to identify the musics influenced into Raja's output. I feel its difficult to identify because Raja got influenced by lot number of people at various stages and various degree of influence. The beauty of the part is, we do not know many of them :)

I feel following people also should be there in your list.

1. SD Burman
2. Madan Mohan
3.Naushad
4.Shankar Jaikishan


I did not know the details of influence of these 4 MD but believe that their impact would be there in Raja's music as raja talked about them at various places.

[Devaraagam]

Let me listen Aatama and junior together so that I can understand your stmt.

[app_engine]

Let me listen Aatama and junior together so that I can understand your stmt.

A music expert may conclude that there're no connection at all :-) However, somewhere in my brain the last line of AttamA saraNam jumps to 'mudivaichcholli sirikkakkoodAthA' of iru manam koNda.

There had been occasions where an old song was "referred" deliberately. (inji iduppazhagi supposedly was built referring an Hindi song, pudhu mAppiLLaikku got constructed after nAn pArththathilE etc).

My hunch is there had also been occasions when IR's "brain" referred to involuntarily :-)

Experts please clarify :-)

[Sureshs65]

app,

I think the one music director who sort of directly influenced him would be Salil Choudary. I see Salil's lasting impression in Raja. It was more during the initial years but even later we can see the influence. Raja took inspiration from the orchestration style of Salilda and the complexity of thought in Salilda's composition. He took them as his inspiration and then put his own stamp taking them to a different level. Check out the orchestration and rhythm pattern in 'poo vannam' from 'Azhiyadha Kolangal' and you can be pardoned if you thought that it was Raja song. Salilda was the first one to use WCM effectively in Indian music and we all know where Raja took WCM wrt film music with his 'Tiruvasagam'.

The other influence is definitely SD Burman / RD Burman. I find that in songs like 'kodi inbam', 'pon malargalin azhapidhaz'. I am not thinking of remaking of something like 'dum maro dum' but rather the guitar usage and the melody. SPB says how 'inji idupazhaga' was born from a particular phrase in SD Burman's song. K Vishwanath says that he had asked Raja to give a Geeta Dutt / S D Burman type of song in 'Sagara Sangamam' and he came with 'mounamelanoyi' dazzling Vishwanath. Balu said in that program that Raja has lots and lots of respect for SDB.

I personally find MSV's influence to be less compared to Salil or Burman. I can relate to a song like 'nee oru kadhal sangeetham' deriving its inspiration from 'iravum nilaum valaratume' from Karnan. And ofcourse many of the initial songs of Raja for Sivaji had tunes which people can say were like MSV's tunes. Overall I think Raja went for more complexity in tune and orchestration, different orchestral arrangements from what MSV had been doing. For that he looked to North India for inspiration initially before turning to various other forms like WCM, Jazz etc.

The impact of other music directors like Sankar Jaikishen or Madan Mohan can be felt only in a song here or there. Violin Vicky in his blog had explained how Shankar Jaikishen's "yeh pyaar ki tanhaahiyan' had morphed in 'oru kanam oru yugamaaga'. Raja has more than once indicated his love for 'yeh pyar hi tanhaahiyan' and had that sung in his Italy concert. Similarly SPB traces the inspiration for 'karpoora bommai onru' to the C Ramachandra's classic, 'dheere se aana re bagiyan mein'. I am sure we can find some such connections for a few other songs. But these are isolated instance and can't really be called inspiration for his style.

Lastly I think there is a subtle influence of V Dakshinamurthy on his style, when it comes to Carnatic music. Though I will not write with my blood. Dakshinamurthy Swami had this knack of morphing different carnatic ragas very well to suit the film music needs. Raja continued that tradition I would say. Dakshinmuthy Swami's handling of ragas had a different touch and so has Raja. This influence I can only say is very subtle and I can't really do a one on one comparison.

[Sureshs65]

And a couple of more instances. In a coffee with Anu program along with SPB, Gangai Amaran spoke about a couple of Hindi songs which had inspired Raja and mapped those Hindi songs to Raja's songs. Don't remember the songs as of now but we can check it in youtube. In another program, again with SPB, Gangai Amaran told how 'jaanavule' from the Telugu film 'Aditya 369' was inspired by 'oo devadas' of C R Subbaraman. Raja's respect for C R Subbaraman is very well known.

When we are talking about inspiration we are talking taking the original meaning of that word into account. We mean how a music director internalizes what he hears, gets new ideas due to what hears, then puts in his thought and takes this idea further or in a totally new direction. For example, 'karpoora bomai onru' is as close to 'dheere se aaja re' as it different from it. We can see how Raja had taken the idea from 'dheere se aaja re', made it his own and given it a totally new dimension. We need to explicitly mention it here because many a time nowadays copy-and-paste is passed under 'inspiration'. That is a different subject altogether.

[raajarasigan]

And a couple of more instances. In a coffee with Anu program along with SPB, Gangai Amaran spoke about a couple of Hindi songs which had inspired Raja and mapped those Hindi songs to Raja's songs. Don't remember the songs as of now but we can check it in youtube.Suresh, one of them was "Mani Oosai Kaettu" from PV. Not sure about the inspirational Hindi song though.

[app_engine]

Nice, insightful posts, Sureshji!

My thought about MSV's influence was more on the melody side - orchestration was way different and that was the reason for Raja's slam-bang entry into TFM.

I didn't include the influences of his native (Pavalar & him mom / others) as that will win easily and possibly the biggest. We can grant that part as his real roots:-)



We need to explicitly mention it here because many a time nowadays copy-and-paste is passed under 'inspiration'. That is a different subject altogether.


:lol:

I get reminded of the andha 7 nAtkaL scene where aspiring composer Bagyaraj tries to create a tune with his harmonium and ends up with 'roop tErA mastAnA' :-)

[thumburu]

Sureshs65 said "I personally find MSV's influence to be less compared to Salil or Burman ".
I concur with that observation . Few MSVish numbers [appane appane , ore naaL unnai naan, nadoorudhu] were during early films and now they seem to be like that more for continuity sake than anything else. But I too felt Salilda's influence even as early as "kanden engum poomagaL","chithira chevvaanam", "kaaverikara orathile","maanodum paadhayile" . I felt they were on the lines SC composed for films like "madhanotsavam" ,"madhumathi"

[app_engine]

Is it just me or there are others who think that Raja's melodies underwent some inexplicable change post his association with MSV during MTK?

[Sureshs65]

app_eng,

You are 'okkadu', meaning you are alone :) I personally don't see too much change I should say. Others can give their opinion.

[Sureshs65]

Nice, insightful posts, Sureshji!

My thought about MSV's influence was more on the melody side - orchestration was way different and that was the reason for Raja's slam-bang entry into TFM.

I didn't include the influences of his native (Pavalar & him mom / others) as that will win easily and possibly the biggest. We can grant that part as his real roots:-)



:lol:

I get reminded of the andha 7 nAtkaL scene where aspiring composer Bagyaraj tries to create a tune with his harmonium and ends up with 'roop tErA mastAnA' :-)

And the reply that Bhaygaraj gives when his 'shishyan' says it has already appeared in Hindi :lol:

[KV]

A_E, this one’s a very interesting topic, thanks. (you could maybe include the title in English as well, for benefit of the non-Thamizh folks here)
Suresh, beautiful write-up there; made a very interesting read.

We’ve heard Raja speak in high regard, on multiple occasions, of SDB, Roshan, Madanmohan, Salil, S-J, MSV, Devarajan and the likes. From whatever little I’ve listened to of these composers thus far, I’d tend to infer that the influence, in a broad sense of the word, lies in the significance of melodic content in their songs. All these names have lilting melodies to their credit. In using the word ‘melody’, it is more of the basic structuring and flow of tune that I have in mind and relatively lesser of the instrumentation built around the tune. Inspired by several such phenomenal tunesmiths who preceded him, I guess IR's outlook was to incorporate this element of melody with instrumentation of increased sophistication. Thus was born, I imagine, the ‘Raaja genre’, the crux of which would be 'integration' - of various genres, styles and schools. Ask any keen listener of IR's music about the foremost differentiating factor in his work and it'd, most likely, point at this concept of 'integration', through which the music seemed to be elevated to new, unheard-of levels. Oops, I'm afraid I've veered a bit off track here!

Getting back to topic, if we look at bringing in some specificity, I'd like to start with SDB's effect on IR; zooming in a bit more, the influence of SDB solos. One quality I find, quite visibly common, in many of his solos is the stark rawness, in emotion, singing and orchestration. With minimal arrangement - a harmonium humming along in the background, a simple tabla beat keeping rhythm, soulful flute pieces punctuating the vocals - SDB's rendering, in his trademark, unpolished tone, gives his solos a wildbird-cry-like feeling. Here's a taste of it: http://www.sensongs.com/SDBurman-SunMereBandhu.html
I've always felt that this has had a sound influence on IR solos, with many of his solo songs having similar qualities of minimalist-orchestration and raw-emotions in them. I'm not sure if I can map this at a song-to-song level, but this subset, of solos of these two artists, to me, operate at similar levels. Another aspect of SDB's composing is the frequent usage of Misra chapu and Rupaka thalam, which many modern day composers, with the exception of IR, don’t seem to employ with regularity.

Now, moving on to particular songs where I’ve felt the influence of other artists, here are some.
‘Oru Veedu Iru Ullam’ from Avar Enakke Sontham, (year 1977, very early phase of IR’s career), is a beautiful SPB solo, which could easily pass off as a song from KB+MSV 70s movie. http://www.thiraipaadal.com/album.php?ALBID=ALBIRR00066&lang=en

Sample this one - Velai Velai from Pickpocket (1989) – a song that I’ve felt is a direct tribute to MSV’s Viswanathan velai vendum. http://www.thiraipaadal.com/album.php?ALBID=ALBIRR00491&lang=en

Year 1982 saw the birth of one of IR’s finest ever work - Eera Vizhi Kaaviyangal. The song ‘Kanavil Midhakkum’ (http://www.thiraipaadal.com/album.php?ALBID=ALBIRR00125&lang=en) a timeless composition that operates on the lines of psychedelic/progressive rock, effortlessly transports one to a dreamworld – deliciously trippy! If I were to imagine any possible influences for this song, it would be the songs ‘Cadence & Cascade’ and ‘I talk to the wind’ by the band King Crimson.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zyVNJRyres
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-bbkaBWDM4
The breezy flow, the dreamy feeling, the psychedelic flute pieces are some aspects that Kanavil Midhakkum shares with these two songs.

So much for now! I’m quite aware that I could be making one too many readings here and most of these could just be figments of my imagination. Blame my ranting on the man and his music!

[Sureshs65]

Nice post KV. I haven't heard many of the songs you have mentioned to comment. Now I have what Usha would call 'homework' :)

In the meanwhile, there are some songs which seem to inspire multiple people. Roshan's wonderful 'Oh re taal mile nadi ke jal mein', sung wonderfully by Mukesh is one such song. This seems to have inspired both KV Mahadevan and Illayraja. Atleast I feel the similarity between them.

Here is Roshan's song from the movie 'Anhoki Raat':

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BCG04fsVL0

Here is A K V Mahadevan song from the movie 'Siri Siri Muvva'. Not a copy of Roshan's song but you can clearly hear its influence

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MMnwX7d_zw

And then this much liked Raja song. Again no straight comparison but I do feel there is an influence. What do others think? (Before clicking the link can you guess the song? Slightly difficult one. The influence is more straightforward in K V Mahadevan's song)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuQijSoT02I

[app_engine]

KV, I'm not able to edit the title (I could do it in the old forum, need to learn "how to" in this one)...

[V_S]

Nice and interesting thread App and great posts by Sureshji, KV, thumburu. About that Roshan's influence on KVM and Raja, KVM's song can be clearly seen as direct influence, but I guessed about the Raja song (before clicking) could be either 'Raja Enbar Mandhiri enbar' or 'Pitchai paathiram', but as usual I was wrong. Without spoiling with the answer, the song you mentioned also shows Roshan's influence on Raja, but could not imagine how Maestro adapted and created a perfect local folk song in his own style. Amazing!!

[Sureshs65]

VS,

That is right. Raja has internalized the elements of the Roshan's song and has gone on to create his own song. Something which he does all the time !!! This is what inspiration should be all about.

[raagas]

Suresh65 has nailed it bang on, about influences. I dont need to write anything more, thanks to him :-)

I also feel that the influence component in IR music consists of lot of Salilda and the Burmans. Though he does hold C.Ramchandra, Roshan and Madan Mohan in high esteem, their influence in his music is minimal, atleast compared to the Burmans and Salilda. The 2nd interlude in "Mannil Indha" Song has a string section that distinctly reminds me of the string section in the interlude of "Jaa re, ja udd ja re panchi" (Maaya) by Salilda. Or why, even those flute pieces that punctuate some of the lines, in IR songs, is S.D.Burman signature in his songs. The treatment given to "Surmayi Ankhiyon mein"(Sadma), atleast in interludes, is distinctly Burman-sque.The school of thought that pushes IR to take folk music of the lands and wrap it in film music is something that the Burmans,Salilda have adopted.

[rajasaranam]

Here is Roshan's song from the movie 'Anhoki Raat':
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BCG04fsVL0


The moment the initial humming came I thought about a song and when it went onto pallavi and charanam I confirmed it can never be any other song than which I thought. Bingo I was right! :) How can any Raaja Fan not find this out?

[rajasaranam]

...and now after listening to KVM song I think Raaja getting influenced is more clearer than KVM. The tune structure and specific patterns give away Raaja very clearly :-) and what is that to do with water in all three song!

[V_S]

Sureshji,
I know, I could not find out the IR song which had influence on Roshan's song, but just curious to know how far I am with respect to the song I thought of. 'Pitchai paathiram' or 'Raaja enbar' does not even come close to the Roshan's song. Are they atleast of same raaga of the IR song you mentioned, or they are totally incomparable. Just wanted to know where I am, to improve. Appreciate your thoughts.

[Sureshs65]

V_S,

I think they are in similar ragas and I don't think you are too off the mark. As RS said, it is more the pattern of the song than the raga per se which reminded me of Roshan's song.

[app_engine]

app_eng,

You are 'okkadu', meaning you are alone :)

Going by non-responses, looks like it's the same case with "junior-AttamA"
(me 'okkudu'?)

[V_S]

Thanks a lot Sureshji. I agree, I initially failed to understand the pattern (especially that initial aarum adhu humming), which I got it after I checked the link. Just after RS posted, it just clicked me to know, atleast is there some resemblance in the way tune is composed, like raaga. Good to know that atleast I am not too far behind.