How to identify ragas in carnatic music?

[Oldposts]

Topic started by CarnaticNewbie (@ emea-nc01.oracle.co.uk) on Sun Jan 9 04:29:36 EST 2005.


Hi
I do not have any training in classical music.I listen to lot of carnatic songs though.So,i have been able to identify ragas if it is same as the songs i've heard.but,when I hear an RTP in carnatic music,i'm not able to identify the raga.Is there any technique for identifying ragas in carnatic music.

[Oldposts]

There is no easy way. If you keep listening to more and more alapanas you will learn to recognize the RTP ragas.

[Oldposts]

Lakshman
Thanks.Do the people who have learnt music in the formal way identify ragas by the arohanam and avarohanam when someone sings the alapana?

[Oldposts]

People who do not know arohanam, avarohanam of a given raga can still identify a raga.

Observation of arohanam & avarohanam to identify a ragam might be sometime useful to distiguish two ragas are more-or-less similar to each other
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[RR]

Actually, if you are familiar with light classical or film songs, some ragas can be identified easily by 'pattern matching'. Then, you can generalize it to identify other ragas. Rather it'll come automatically if you have the right ear for music. I can vouch for it because I came through this path :)

[Sudhaama]

How to IDENTIFY Raagaas ?

// I do not have any training in classical music.I listen to lot of carnatic songs though.So,i have been able to identify ragas if it is same as the songs i've heard.but,when I hear an RTP in carnatic music,i'm not able to identify the raga.Is there any technique for identifying ragas in carnatic music.//

Although our Versatile Hearty Friend... Mr. RR ... has already touched this point... I will simplify it further.

The Capacity towards the Identification of Raagaas can be gained by one of the Two ways.

One is called by ... (Sangeetha) Saasthra-Gjnaanam = Learning the Theory of Music through a Teacher.

Second one... by Kaelhvi-Gjnaanam = Learning by Practical Observation and Grasping... Self-tuition.

Both these ways are applicable to learning Dances, or Any Language, Skill, Art or any other Talent.... commensurate with the individual Human-perception and Self-motivation.

While an illiterate Hunter... could learn the art of Bow & Arrow and prove his Best Skill competing with... "Even"... the Theoretical Learners ... ( so to mean... "Yaekalaiva")

Dear Friends... is it impossible to diifferentiate or discern and learn just to identify the Voice of the Birds?...

So are the Raagaas... How do we differentiate the Skreeks from various birds and identify the Bird-source... as Kuyil, Maina, Kuruvi, Kilhi, Mayil, Kaaka and so on...

... Just by hearing ... Grasping and recording in our Memory... Is it Not?

While moving into the interior forests... (for survey work).... I used to wonder on the amazing skill of the Hunters... hiding behind the Bush... creating various Shreeking-sounds of different Species of Birds... just by means of a six inch long flute.

They used to tell me... Sir... this is the weeping cry of a Female-Parrot... Now you will see... only Male-Parrots will rush to me".... To my amazement it exactly happened so.

Then a multi-coloured Bird I identified at a far off distance and asked him... " Can you make that Bird come to you?'

"Yes Sir.. indeed I can... although it is a very rare Specy of Maina... very difficult to differentiate from the Shreek of a Kuyil.... See I will fetch it come towards you..."

Then hiding behind me he blew his tiny flute which generated a peculiar Bird-sound un-heard-off by me till then... but amazingly undoubtable Bird sound ... a Non-flute-sound...

Oh!... Believe it Not... that Bird... Reciprocated... which was replied by the Artificial-tune of the Hunter... Then within Minutes that tiny Tot... Far Far off the distance dashed towards me... in a terrific speed... I had to run away.!!!.

Replying me the Huner said ... "that is the Love-Note I played... I can drive the same bird by playing a different Note of the same Bird... Then you will see the Bird will attack you... because that is the freightening Shreek of the same specy..." he said.

Is it enough to make you know... about Self-tuition....? It is very easy if you have the Qualification?

Only qualification is your heart to love Music.... coupled with a mad mad Thirst to somehow learn

I too came in the same way of RR... and Consequently competing with the Saastric-learned Musicians

... so advanced to indentify even intricate Ragas like Garudadhwani.

[viggop]

Thanks Sudhaama

As I said,i've been able to identify some ragas upto now(less than 10).When somebody sing the alapanai of keeravani,i immediately know that it is Keeravani because I heard the same alapanai being sung by Neyveli Santhanagopalan for Appar's "Vananai"[audio available in Nada Anuboothi site as well as musicindiaonline.com).
I liked the song so much that i would listen to it continuously for hours.

This is the same way i can identify other ragas.I would take liking for a particular song and listen to it lot of times and from then on,if there is another song or alapani sung like that,i know that this is of a particular raga.

But,i also want to know why is the alapanai of Keeravani sung in that way only?For this,i think we require some theoretical knowledge about music.if it easy for anyone to elaborate/elucidate on this point,i would be very happy indeed!

[RR]

viggop,
While one song may be enough to grasp the swarupa of some simple ragas, for many ragas (especially Melakarta) it is not enough, IMO. It would be like claiming I've seen the whole of India after only visiting Delhi. This is the problem in pattern matching approach. A beginner should listen to as many songs as possible before feeling confident in identifying ragas. Unless theoretically knowledge-able, he/she can be easily misled on close ragas e..g. hindolam,suddha hindolam,soorya,chandrakauns. But if he/she can recognize hindolam and at the same time tell me for songs on other 3 ragas that they are not hindolam, then I have to give you that his/her raga sense is great. Being able to tell that 'This raga is not the one I know' is itself a skill, IMO.

[viggop]

Thanks RR
If i take a liking to a particular song,i then hear lot of songs in that same raga trying to find the patterns.

I still want some help to this question?
WHy is the alapanai of keeravani or charukesi or saveri sung in a particular manner? Is this based on the arohana and avarohana? most of the artistes sing in a similar manner so that a newbie like me can know what raga is sung but why do they sing it that way only for that particular raga?
Do they follow some formula etc?

[RR]

WHy is the alapanai of keeravani or charukesi or saveri sung in a particular manner?
I have observed this for ragas like Nadanamakriya, I hope some experts will answer this question. But I'm not sure everyone follows a specific pattern for keeravani,charukesi.. I have heard dissimilar alapanai's for these ragas (when it is sung detailed). I have usually found TNS's raga interpretation to be quite distinct. He starts with a few standard phrases but later as he explores, it's quite different from what standard artists sing.. So you may want to try him :)

[ts]

It depends on the scope of the ragam. As RR Pointed out, the scope of Nadaramakriya is limited and hence an elaborate alapana would not be possible without any repeats. Also there are swarams that the performer can have as a base (nyasa) and render. These limit the scope of the ragam and hence one hears the same "pidi" in almost all renditions.

For example, you cannot hear someone renderring Sankarabharanam from the Ni, dha and ma swarams. Eventhough these are swaras allowed in Sankarabharanam, the alapana at no point will stop at them and elaborations will not be done on them . On the other hand, for kalyani, traversing and basing these swarams for alapana is allowed. Hope i am making it clear and that this helps.

[Sudhaama]

"RR"

//"viggop" :-- WHy is the alapanai of keeravani or charukesi or saveri sung in a particular manner? //

Certain Ragas are too close to some other Ragas as a Sandwitch type in between two other Ragas... or even more.

For example "Husaeni"... While singing it...

.... if we just slip a little away towards one side-track.... for the sake of elaboration......the Notes of Mukhaari will jump in ...

If the slip is towards the other Bank... then Bhairavi Notes .. will jump in.

So... while Alapana and Swara-prastharaas .. by Mano-Dharmam... the Musician very cautiously advances in the Via-media track allotted for it.

In this respect Madurai Mani Iyer and Maharajapuram Viswanatha Iyer are the Versatile Genious... I have closely observed.

They used to take up very Small Ragas... Not much known... to the public... like "Umabaranham", "Shadvida-margini"... "Chiththa-Ranjini" .. etc....

... and elaborate it profusely in Alapana ...for more than One hour

... but still INAMBIGUOUS for the Audience... being quite well-defined and distinctly clear.

By hearing such musical Giants of Yester-years, I could learn even such small Ragas..... of very minute INTRICACY.

.... which demands a.... Rope-walk !!!

So some Musicians prefer to restrain within the bounds of its Standard Chitta-Swaras prescribed for it..

...without applying much Mano-dharma...

...(which is the Speciality of Indian-Music, especially Carnatic Music).

... Consequently it apperas as a Pre- Recorded Music heard repeatedly.
although sung by different Musicians.

But How... those Giants could achieve it... emulatively...?

Because of their ... keen concentration on the Raga-Bhaavam....

... combined with KAARVAI and Kuzhaivu at the "Jeeva-Swaras" deeply.

... during Alapanas ... and Special Sangathis for Keerthana lines...

Those Giants adopt the same method for the Main popular Ragas like Thodi , Kalyani, Sankarabharanam type Ragas too....

Which alone Clarifies the Clear Definition of Ragas.

... Making even a Katththukkutti and Quack-Rasika appreciate and

...Enjoy this Classical tough Art... inherent with immense Beauty and Mad-Joy !!!

[viggop]

I have heard MS singing "Saroja Dala Netri" in Shankarabharanam.The entire length of that piece was 42 minutes and it was a gem.

I've often confused myself with Mukhari and bhairavi and once even kalyani and B.Saranga(RR said that these are vastly different!!!)

Sudhaama
I'm just a person who only hears carnatic songs.Hence, i'm not very sure about words like Chittaswarams,Mano Dharma(creativity?),kalpanaswarams,Kaarvai,Kuzhaiv u etc . If you have time,would you care to explain these things to newbies with examples.
You can for e.g. point out to a song in musicindiaonline or Nada Anuboothi site and explain what is the chittaswaram,kalpanaswaram etc. in that song.

[Sudhaama]

Mr Viggop,

Chitta-Swaram, Kalpana-Swara.

The Swara-Notations as framed by the respective composer of the Keerthana is called Chtta-swaras

Further what the Musician supplements it by means of his own creativity (Mano-Dharma)... within the bounds of the Raga-Lakshana ... specified for each Raga.. Such developments or advancements on elaboration of Notes ... is called Kalpana-Swara.

Chitta-Swaras are the standard texts, which should not be changed... So it will be the same for all the Musicians.

But the Kalpana-swara will vary from Musician to Musician... that is where the talent and the degree of knowledge is exhibited... thus identifying the Greatness of the musician comparatively in the Field.

Mainly what you need .... hearing lot of music... keenly observing... the intricacies. Then just by experience you can learn many things yourselves easily without others help.

Regarding the KAARVAI and KUZHAIVU ... these cannot be explained by writing but only by demonstration.

Better you ask any of your friend who knows. He can pin point to you in the course of a Music Concert. It is very simple... You can easily grasp it.

Experience is the Best Teacher.

[Sudhaama]

How to Develop KAELHVI- GJNAANAM ?... by a Total Stranger ?

Modus-Operandi... to learn to Enjoy Classical-Music

(1) Start with Light Songs... or Cinema-Songs carrying PURE Classical Music-Raagaas.... Out of them.... select a few songs of your tastes.

(2) Ask your friends or Relatives... who knows Music... On Raagas Name ... of the Songs you like.... At such a First stage... You must start with Main and Popular Ragaas like... Kalyani,

(3) Mug-up the Name of the Raagaa as well as the the Song ...

(4) On the advice of your friend.... hear... other Songs too... chosen on the basis of... Main-Ragas

(5) Thus you remember the appropriate Songs for all the Basic Raagas. These Songs are called the Key-Songs for you.... pertaining to Raagaas. These may be Cinema-Songs too.

(6) Then start hearing Music concerts.... with rapt attention on Songs first.(Aalaapanas will be confusing for the Beginner)

(7) While hearing a Keerthana... the matching Key-Song.. of the pertaing Raagaa will come to your memory.. if you keenly observe and try to collect the Key-Song.... the Name of the connected Raagaa... is NO DIFFICULTY.

Then go to the Second Lesson of ... Secxondary Ragas...

Thus... You can proceed step by step...

In course of Time... commensurate with the endeavour put forth... you will get well-versed.

Experience is the BEST TEACHER !!!

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[viggop]

Thanks Sudhaama
My experience was totally different. I do not like film songs much except if they are devotional songs.
I started listening to carnatic music songs first.Initially ,it was simple songs without any alapana.

Then,if i like a particular song very much,i'll then find out its raga name and then hear other songs in that same raga.i'll hear the songs i like repeatedly throughout the day from my PC.then,i started listening to songs which have alapanai and mostly can recognise ragas if the alapanais are nearly same. I'll follow the advice of seniors here--i.e hear more and more songs :-)

[srinivasan552000]

I have a liking for Carnatic music only. Cine songs spoil your throat and voice. Normally alapana is done for each song from the swara it starts and instead of words you just sing the song with "Thadharina, thadharinannom, Hari etc". Build the song step by step without words from low tempo to fast tempo according to your capability and without crossing the swaras mentioned in the arohaNam and avarohaNam of the raagam. There is no fixed pattern. KeeravaaNi can be sung in different style according to the song in that raagam and so are the other raagams. BalamuraLikrishna sings always differently. Hear his songs. You will know the difference. Hearmany songs in a raagam sung by different artists, practise. You will learn to identify the raagam. rare raagams have one or two songs only and not all raagams are fit for alaapana and attempt to do will reduce the melody. Where you can go at length, select those elaborate raagams only unless you have very good voice which can go to any pitch and any tempo.

[Sudhaama]

Mr.Viggop,

//My experience was totally different. I do not like film songs much except if they are devotional songs.//

Perhaps you mean the current day Cinema-Songs... Yes you are Correct...

And I will go a step further to say... "Don't take Take any of the Current-day Cinema Songs... as your KEY-SONG as a Model for identifying a Raga in the Alaapana or Song... because in the current cinema songs... there is Neither full shape of the Raga... except one or a few Traces here and there... nor sharply defintion by standard of Ragas.... mostly.

... No doubt you can enjoy hearing those Songs.... because there is musical-melody in it.

Whereas... without any bias... try the Olden day-Cinema-Songs... especially of G.N.B, M.S.., M.K.T P.U.Chinnappa, V.A.Chellappa, Honnappa Bhagawathar, TRRajakumari.... and so on.

The Beauty in those Songs... is they are well-carved in the FULL-SHAPE of its Raga... primarily.

For Example... if you want to learn the Insignificant Raga "HAEMAVATHI"...well ... Try...

(1) Chidhambara Naathaa Thiruvarulh Thaa Thaa ... by MKT.. Thiruneelakantar

(2) Siva-krupaiyaal mahizhndhaee Maathaa ..... by. P.U. Chinnaapaa... Aaryamaala.

Another Insignificant Raaga... VIJAYA-NAAGARI... Try...

"Soppana-Vaazhvil mahizhndhu... Subrahmanya-Swamy"... M.K.T.... Sivakavi.

One More Insignificant Raaga... HUSAENI...

Ulhlham than Nilai thalharndhadhae Unai kanhdadhu mudhal... TRRajakumari... Sivakavi.

Similarly... out of the later day Songs... N.V.Venkataraman, and others too of Same Category.

Brindhaavanamum Nandhakumaaranum... DURGA ...Missiamma.. Rajeswara Rao.

Inrhu Namadhu Ulhlhamae ...DURGA... Viswanathan-Ramamoorthi.... Thanga-padhumai.

Arulh-Jothi Dheywam Ennai aandu konda Dheywam... SAARANGA ... Gantasaala...

Giridhara-Gopaalaa... MOHANAM ... Meera... MS

Paruvam paarththu Aruhil vandhum Vetkamaa... MOHANAM ... T.M.Soundararajan.

Maadhavi-Pon-Mayilaalh... KARAHARAPRIYA .... T.M.Soundararajan

Ennaippoal Penh allavoa... THOADI ... P.Susheela.

Pollaa-thanaththai yenna solvaen Kanhnhaa... KALYANI... P.Susheela... Penh

So I mean and suggest that you can have these ones as the KEY-SONGS for identifying its Raga.... while you hear any other Song... by your parallel murmuring within yourselves... which will sharply STRIKE AT YOU ... easily.

[srinivasan552000]

I agree with Sudhaamaa to some extent only that the old film songs based on Carnatic music raagams are far superior to the present day ones but there is no music or melody to the greatest extent in the latter and you can find only jarring beats, improper pronounciation of the language, singing in false voice that does not suit the voice of the singer since the music director never allows free hand to the singer. Whether it is the old or present day cine songs, I am still of the firm opinion that to learn Carnatic music, one must sing pure krithis and keerthanais so that one can enjoy the beauty. In the present day cine songs raagaams are fusioned and spoiled. Of course the songs quoted by you are enjoyable. There are good articles if you bowse various sites and read for example you can get these from http://www.carnaticcorner.com/

[savvysubu]

Hi all,

A very interesting thread, and nice hints on how to go about doing it. There are essentially two approaches to get there, if you want to be a pro at it, as mentioned earlier in the thread.

1. One is the formal theory route: Get someone in the neighborhood who knows how to do it, and understand some basics on what "sa re ga ma pa dha ni sa" is all about, and how ragas differ by how these are selected, etc.

2. Second one is very informal: Learn from hearing, relating patterns, etc, which works extremely well except for distinquishing close ragas such as "saramathi" and "marga hindolam" or such. In this route of learning, anything like film songs, bhajans, songs that you are used to (in childhood) can be very useful. Start asking what raga is thins song? Why does it sound like that one?

I have no formal training, so technically I came through route 1 technically, though nowadays I listen to "good" classical music more than what I started with (film music).

Here are some points, if they encourage you:

* You do not need any knowledge of what "sa re ga ma pa
dha ni sa" is all about to be able to identify raga. If you are
a keen listener and learner, you can learn to identify ragas by patterns.

* You do not need to know what kritis were composed by
any composer to be able to identify ragas. Although,
if you go to a concert, the person next to you will probably
relate to the raga rendered through some kriti, which
might make you feel like "may be I should know this".

* The same raga can sound different in different songs. So,
when this veteran XYZ tells you that some raga that you are listening to is ABC, which is the same as the raga of the
song DEF, you might fell that "I do not see the patterns
and relationship". Don't worry nothing is wrong. A raga can actually have different flavours.

* Here is the truth: a raga is represented by a scale, which specifies the allowed and disallowed notes or swaras in an octave. The classical definition of a raga goes beyond that: every raga has emphasis notes, pause notes and phrases allowed/ disallowed, which are not that strictly enforced (in the sense, you can always find a classical composition that violates one such specifications you put down for a raga). A raga is surely rich enough to generate pleasing tunes, which is what is heavily exploited in film songs.
Classically trained people do not see the raga, the way you would, in a film song because they are used to Thyagaraja's kriti in that raga. To the extent you hear the similarities, you may find it interesting. Even otherwise, let it not hinder your enjoyment. If you like a tune, listen to it, do not ask "what raga it is". It may not be worth it.

* Film songs are a great place to start (which is where I learned many ragas initially), though be warned that nearly every film song is impure. So, you can find the raga in that film song, but do not try to learn the raga from it because the film musician is not dedicated to teaching you the raga.

In short, if identifying a raga helps you in anyway, go for it. There are several ways to get there. If not, enjoy the music anyway.

Subu

[krishnamjc]

please visit http://www.carnaticindia.com , a website on carnatic music

[krishnamjc]

dear all,
we are happy to inform you that http://wwwcarnaticindia.com is celebrating its 1st foundation day on 16th feb 2007. all these time we were striving to become a resource center providing information relating carnatic music. thanks once again for your cooperation,
Krishna - editor, www.carnaticindia.com

[pallavi.pr]

Hi Sudhama,

Yes. There is a reason behind everything that is done, especially in something as intricate and beautiful as Carnatic music.

Every raga has certain group of notes(ofcourse based on the aarohana and avarohana) which enhances the beauty of the raga. And this one can make out upon listening to a lot of renditions of the particular raga.


quote="viggop"]Thanks Sudhaama

As I said,i've been able to identify some ragas upto now(less than 10).When somebody sing the alapanai of keeravani,i immediately know that it is Keeravani because I heard the same alapanai being sung by Neyveli Santhanagopalan for Appar's "Vananai"[audio available in Nada Anuboothi site as well as musicindiaonline.com).
I liked the song so much that i would listen to it continuously for hours.

This is the same way i can identify other ragas.I would take liking for a particular song and listen to it lot of times and from then on,if there is another song or alapani sung like that,i know that this is of a particular raga.

But,i also want to know why is the alapanai of Keeravani sung in that way only?For this,i think we require some theoretical knowledge about music.if it easy for anyone to elaborate/elucidate on this point,i would be very happy indeed![/quote]

[umaram]

Hello all,

When it comes to identifying ragas, I agree the process mentioned here is the best and works out perfectly well. In an earnest attempt to make this process more easier, we have recently launched a website www.ragasurabhi.com. which has samples of audio files, by listening to which one should be able to get a fairly good grasp of a specific raga. Do take time to visit our site and dont forget to post your comments in the Blog.

Ragasurabhi Team

[bhava]

nice work. :clap:

[Sudhaama]

.


. Classical CARNATIC-MUSIC is a LANGUAGE..!... by Ragas..


Ragas also convey... and SUBTLY SPEAKS... the Sense behind.!..

...in a DEEP-SPIRIT... Powerfully... Long-lasting... PROFOUNDLY....

...reaching the Three Might- Sources of Humans... Mind, Brain, and Soul / Conscience...


...fortifying and supporting the Sense of Sahithyas (Lyrics)


Dear Friends,

Many of the Questions and Points raised here... I have already touched or answered in my Serial Article... under our Hub-Magazine...

.. SANGEETHA ALAI-KADAL ...
http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?t=11420#

And in the forthcoming Issue of OCT-2009...

..I have analysed the Characteristics (Propensity / GUNABHAVAM exhibited) by the Raga SOURASHTRAM...

On NEELAMBARI... in AUGUST-SEPTEMBER and OCTOBER '09 Issues.

Welcome to ENJOY the ..MUSICAL- FACETS of.....

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