HINDUSIM,IS IT A COMBINTION OF CULTURES, RELIGON OR SCIENCE?

[Raghu]

[tscii:f8957dac0e]Can we classify 'HINDUSIM'as a religion or culture, I would opt out for the latter, because we do not have a "unified system of belief encoded in declaration of faith " like other major religion like Christianity Islam or Buddhism. Hinduism is formed of diverse traditions and has no single founder, it is a combination off various cultures with 'highly' contradicting views, scriptures and stories.. It has two main divisions 'Shivasism' (Shiva followers) and ' Vaishanvism', these kinds of divisions can be found in Christianity and Islam...

During 'Iron age of India' ShivLinga worships been the eldest practice known to man kind, it has been proved by many archaeologists and scholars alike. The introduction of Vaishnavism was introduced later after the invasion from 'Eastern Europe/ Persia' etc... In time, two of these cultures merged together to form tradition called 'Hinduism'...

We (Hindus) have all the scientific proofs about the creation of the universe, life,etc.. from our ancient ‘Rishi’s and techniques for self realisation using Yoga and meditation to achieve such gaols, as far as I know, 'No religion or sect has proved this before'. , yet we have enormous amount of contradiction stories, puranas etc...

Most Hindus don’t have clue about the tradition it self, unlike the Christians and Muslims.. We simply go to the temple to fulfil our ‘own’ needs and mourn about ‘our grief’ which is created by human itself, not by GOD. Majority of us have no clue about the ‘Shiva puran’ skanda purana;’ or Gita’.. This is not the case with Christians and Muslims. It is the responsibility of the authorities of the temple to preach the scriptures daily like in the church or mosque.
What are your thoughts on this…
[/b][/tscii:f8957dac0e]

[Raghu]

Sudhama sir

Pradheep

Rohit

where are you guys??

[anbu_kathir]

Hi Raghu..


[tscii]Can we classify 'HINDUSIM'as a religion or culture, I would opt out for the latter, because we do not have a "unified system of belief encoded in declaration of faith " like other major religion like Christianity Islam or Buddhism. Hinduism is formed of diverse traditions and has no single founder, it is a combination off various cultures with 'highly' contradicting views, scriptures and stories.. It has two main divisions 'Shivasism' (Shiva followers) and ' Vaishanvism', these kinds of divisions can be found in Christianity and Islam...

Did you mean 'can't' here?



We (Hindus) have all the scientific proofs about the creation of the universe, life,etc.. from our ancient ‘Rishi’s

Scientific proofs? I am not sure if we have scientific proofs for the creation of the Universe etc. Could you be more clear here?



Most Hindus don’t have clue about the tradition it self, unlike the Christians and Muslims.. We simply go to the temple to fulfil our ‘own’ needs and mourn about ‘our grief’ which is created by human itself, not by GOD. Majority of us have no clue about the ‘Shiva puran’ skanda purana;’ or Gita’.. This is not the case with Christians and Muslims. It is the responsibility of the authorities of the temple to preach the scriptures daily like in the church or mosque.


One problem is that there is too much literature. Where does one begin? Ideally the starting points are the Itihaasas, Ramayana and Mahabharatha (more importantly). A lot of people know these stories, but inspite of all that even an iota of real understanding seems to be missing from our lives. There exist very few people who grasp the totality of just these Itihaasas, let alone the esoteric treatises of Hinduism. Also, we have the problem of language, where few people hardly ever learn Tamil or Sanskrit deeply enough to appreciate these ancient texts. And then finally there is the problem of over dependence and indoctrination.

Moreover, Hinduism has not 'required/forced' people to do any special activities/rituals or develop a belief in anything. Ultimately each sect seems to stress of viewing all beings with equanimity and compassion. So a 'preaching' seems rather unnecessary. However, awareness of the foundational elements of Hinduism should be developed as you say.

There are several avenues in Hinduism even in this modern world to hunt individually for knowledge, and for the deeply motivated seeker, the Guru himself shows the way to true freedom, which IMHO should be the sole aim. Honestly I think few people really understand or care for such a life (including among those who have a wide knowledge of the scriptures).

Love and Light.

[Sudhaama]

.

NO "ISM" LABEL... as Saivism or Vaishnawism or the like... EXCLUSIVELY APT ...

..Even as HINDU-ISM.!...

...for this LARGE-HEARTED... VEDIC-CULTURE of Human-Values.!

Religions or various pursuits of God-Realisation are intended to BROADEN the HUMAN- OUTLOOK....

....and UPLIFT the Mankind alone possessing the invaluable SOUL... by means of Applied Wisdom and Cultured Mind...

....towards EMANCIPATION OF HUMAN SOUL....

....to ensure that Supreme Earthly birth... TRULY ENJOY his ROYAL OPPORTUNITY by all Senses...

...and NOT TO NARROW DOWN.... nor DIVIDE the One Global Humanity.!

This Vedic-Religion... is the COMPRHENSIVE plus INTEGRAL FORM of ALL THE POPULAR WORLD RELIGIONS.!

The Name of Vedic-Religion lablelled as HINDUISM... is in fact called as SANAATHANA-DHARMA... by its followers.

..which means ETERNAL RELIGION of God-stipulated COMMON Order for the sake of ENTIRE MANKIND... of any Age and Era..

How.?

Better we approach and UNDERSTAND...Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, Dr Annie Besant, Sri Krishna Chaithanya... and so on...

...to TRULY KNOW... what is Vedic-Culture...

.... intended for EMANICIPATION OF HUMANITY.


This Religion alone renders FULL LIBERTY to the devotees to worship and follow any God....

...through any means amongst the wide options provided to avail...

.... by Ones own choice and perception

Although the different means may cause varied sorts of experience.... All the Results will be almost EQUAL...

....because the ultimate GOD IS ONE.!!!

That One Supreme God... takes up several forms and shapes... in the manner the devotee believes and follows... say Vedas.

Who is that ONE GOD... Hiding behind several Gods.?

First of all... Such a logical Question and Thought on SUPREME GOD... are unnecessary for a Layman- Devotee.

However if anyone is anxious to know... then let him / her just think awhile... and OBSERVE...

...why at the beginning and end of Vedic chanting... it is prayed as...HARIHI OHM.!!!

Who is that Hari.? Why chanted so..?

That will clarify and answer all our Doubts and Questions....

.... as well as on One and all the Questions on ANY GOD and FORM....

....meant for SUPER-HUMAN Protection and Surveilence for Mankind.!!!



[tscii:c89f4ff3ca]Can we classify 'HINDUSIM'as a religion or culture, I would opt out for the latter, because we do not have a "unified system of belief encoded in declaration of faith " like other major religion like Christianity Islam or Buddhism. Hinduism is formed of diverse traditions and has no single founder, it is a combination off various cultures with 'highly' contradicting views, scriptures and stories.. It has two main divisions 'Shivasism' (Shiva followers) and ' Vaishanvism', these kinds of divisions can be found in Christianity and Islam...

During 'Iron age of India' ShivLinga worships been the eldest practice known to man kind, it has been proved by many archaeologists and scholars alike. The introduction of Vaishnavism was introduced later after the invasion from 'Eastern Europe/ Persia' etc... In time, two of these cultures merged together to form tradition called 'Hinduism'...

We (Hindus) have all the scientific proofs about the creation of the universe, life,etc.. from our ancient ‘Rishi’s and techniques for self realisation using Yoga and meditation to achieve such gaols, as far as I know, 'No religion or sect has proved this before'. , yet we have enormous amount of contradiction stories, puranas etc...

Most Hindus don’t have clue about the tradition it self, unlike the Christians and Muslims.. We simply go to the temple to fulfil our ‘own’ needs and mourn about ‘our grief’ which is created by human itself, not by GOD. Majority of us have no clue about the ‘Shiva puran’ skanda purana;’ or Gita’.. This is not the case with Christians and Muslims. It is the responsibility of the authorities of the temple to preach the scriptures daily like in the church or mosque.
What are your thoughts on this…
[/b][/tscii:c89f4ff3ca]
.

[pradheep]

Dear Raghu
I think the Vedic view has a Unique "Single Universal Concept". All the branches are different flavors of that single concept giving a feeling of multitudeness, adding to its beauty. All the off shoots of it including Jainism and Buddhism also carry that Universal Concept.

Last week I had a discussion with my sister on this same topic and this is how I explained. I told her, Morning when I reached your home, you offered me coffee, and I did not say the sugar in your kitchen is sweet, instead said the coffee is sweet and good. For breakfast you made the traditional coconut milk dipped aappam, with the same sugar you had in your kitchen and I praised the sweetned coconut milk. At 11.00 you gave a rasna-drink again sweetned with the same kitchen sugar. At lunch you gave me milk-payasam sweetned with the same sugar.

It is "one sugar" that you gave me all the time trying to please my sweet-taste buds, only the flavors and additional ingredients were different. Without sugar none of them would be enjoyable. At the same time, whether it was coffee, rasna-drink or coconut-milk or payasam, you added only one sugar from one bottle. But each tasted different. The reality is I was only tasting the same sugar everytime. Without Awareness of Sugar I can keep seeing the difference of sweet-items.

Same way is Vedic Culture, there is one Fundamental Truth offered in different flavors in Shaivism, Vaishnavism and other isms. The fundamental concept is one and the same, like the single sugar giving sweetness all the time in different foods. All rituals , festivals of Vedic tradition has only one Fundamental Truth to Impart.

[PARAMASHIVAN]

Hinduism was practiced in Kazakhstan (remains of idols were found) in fact all the countries ending with 'stan' (like Hindustan), like Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Afghanistan, takistan, Kyrgyzstan all have had major Hindu influences... in fact Buddhism had influences in Afghanistan and Kazakhstan , these countries border each others.

I left Pakistan here, as it was part of Hindustan before

I am aware the Hinduism was spread across Indonesia , Burma, Cambodia, Thailand, Vietnam, Nepal, but did it ever spread into china like Buddhism did???

[PARAMASHIVAN]

Hinduism has historically been a non-missionizing religious tradition. It has, however, spread to many parts of South and Southeast Asia, and to the West, and in the process has adapted to the cultural of these regions.


Hinduism was not originally a unified religious tradition. Rather, it consisted of a wide range of practices and beliefs that were only loosely linked. There was from the beginning wide regional variation. Local traditions existed almost independently, linked by some basic principles-karma, say, or samsara--or a basic understanding of the power of the divine. But the Indian subcontinent is a huge and diverse landmass, and the people who inhabit India differ sometimes quite radically depending on where they live. There are hundreds of languages, and thousands of local cults and local traditions that may be unknown outside of a particular region or even a particular village.

Early western scholars posited a geographical and ideological divide in Hinduism, one that was characterized as a split between the north and the south. The north, these orientalist scholars argued, was characterized by the religious ideas of the Vedas, which, they argued, were brought from outside of India by ancient Europeans, the Aryans. These outsiders invaded northern India and pushed the indigenous peoples to the south. The northerners spoke variations of Sanskrit. The southerners, this theory held, were known as Dravidians, and spoke variations of Tamil. The southerners were said to be darker than their light-skinned Aryan neighbors, and were also less educated, less pure, and their religious traditions less evolved.

This is a typically slanted and perniciously biased colonialist history. In fact, pre-Vedic religious traditions mixed with Vedic ideas and practices from the beginning, and what emerged as what some call "classical" Hinduism is a complex intermingling of a whole range of local and pan-Indian traditions. Some aspects of Hinduism are truly pan-Indian: the Vedas, for instance, are the basic underlying foundation for virtually all forms of Hinduism; the great epics, the Mahabharata and Ramayana, are mostly pan-Indian, although even they-particularly the Ramayana-have regional variations. The great gods and goddesses-Shiva, Vishnu, Devi-are worshipped everywhere, but regional variations are the norm rather than the exception.

Hinduism has historically been a non-missionizing religious tradition. This is specifically linked to the fundamental theological worldview that all schools of Hinduism share. Human beings are reborn into the world according to their past deeds in prior lifetimes. This is the basic law of karma. Thus being a Hindu is not a matter of choice or cultural circumstance; it is a reflection of the workings of the cosmos. Thus many (although not all) Hindus have held that one cannot convert to Hinduism. You are either born a Hindu, or you are not. As a result, to be Hindu has traditionally meant to be a Hindu in India.

Hinduism has, however, spread to other parts of the world. It has spread as a result of Hindu kings conquering non-Hindu lands; it has spread as a result of colonization and then globalization; and in the modern period it has spread as a result of westerners adopting, and converting to, Hindu practices and beliefs. Hindu kings began to make forays into Sri Lanka and parts of southeast Asia as early as the 7th century C.E. Hinduism was a major cultural force in much of Southeast Asia, as evidenced, for example, by Angkor Wat or contemporary Balinese Hinduism. The Srivijaya kingdom, established on the island of Sumatra in what is now Indonesia, was a huge Hindu kingdom. In this context, Hinduism took on a distinctly local character, both in terms of the forms of the gods and goddesses and their associated ritual practices. This kind of political expansion outside of India is the exception rather than the rule, however.

Hinduism has become a far more international religion in the modern world, first as a result of colonialism and second as a result of globalization. There are Hindu communities in the West Indies, for instance, because British traders captured and enslaved Hindus, taking them off to work in the tea and coffee plantations in their West Indian colonies. After the collapse of the British Raj, many of these former slaves stayed, cultivating a distinctly local form of Hinduism. The collapse of the British Empire also meant that Hindus, as citizens of the former colonies, could travel outside of India to other former colonies, most notably Great Britain and Canada, where large communities of so-called "Diasporic Hindus" continue to practice traditional forms of Hinduism that have, nonetheless, taken on local characteristics. There are impressive Hindu temples serving substantial Hindu communities throughout England, in Canada, and in the United States.

A question that remains is, given the incredible internal variations and diversity, how has Hinduism come to be understood as a single religious tradition? In some ways, it is not and never will be. That said, however, there are certain pan-Indian (and, in the contemporary world, international) practices and traditions and beliefs that have, over the centuries, spread throughout the Hindu world and that unite the many variations of the tradition.

[anbu_kathir]

I am aware the Hinduism was spread across Indonesia , Burma, Cambodia, Thailand, Vietnam, Nepal, but did it ever spread into china like Buddhism did???


I guess no, the Himalayas might have been a deterrent.


Hinduism was practiced in Kazakhstan (remains of idols were found) in fact all the countries ending with 'stan' (like Hindustan), like Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Afghanistan, takistan, Kyrgyzstan all have had major Hindu influences... in fact Buddhism had influences in Afghanistan and Kazakhstan , these countries border each others.

I left Pakistan here, as it was part of Hindustan before

I am aware the Hinduism was spread across Indonesia , Burma, Cambodia, Thailand, Vietnam, Nepal, but did it ever spread into china like Buddhism did???

These places were influenced by a pre-Vedic civilization (and therefore not 'Hinduism' strictly) in the distant past, the one that arose near Mesopotamia (the regions around Iraq - Iran), which might be considered the starting point of all religions/civilizations. Of course, the Tamils seemed to have relations with this civilization, don't know how the chemistry of culture and religion worked out between these two.

Love and Light.

[PARAMASHIVAN]

I am aware the Hinduism was spread across Indonesia , Burma, Cambodia, Thailand, Vietnam, Nepal, but did it ever spread into china like Buddhism did???


I guess no, the Himalayas might have been a deterrent.



Hmmm, but then again Nepal is at high altitude as well, if that is so then how did buddism get spread in china?

[anbu_kathir]

Hmmm, but then again Nepal is at high altitude as well, if that is so then how did buddism get spread in china?

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090308181000AAZmiP2

Might be a better answer than mine, I think.

Love and Light.

[Sudhaama]

.

.

But for the advent of the Great Seer, SANKARACHARYA....!!!....???

...the Awathara (Re-incarnation) of God SIVA.!!!



[html:7b5c15ac3c]
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p213/sudhaama/2008/Thiru-Feb2008/Siva59.jpg
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p213/sudhaama/2008/Thiru-Feb2008/Sankara10.jpg
[/html:7b5c15ac3c]


(1) Lord Gowthama Buddha, the Founder of Buddism, was born in Kapilawasthu, NEPAL.

So when Buddhism sprouted in India at Gaya, Bihar... it expanded around fast and spread its wings to Nepal too.

Some of the Buddhist mutts of such ancient days still exist even now... at Nepal, as a Standing-proof for this fact.

[html:7b5c15ac3c]
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p213/sudhaama/Thiru-Jan08/Buddha2.gif
[/html:7b5c15ac3c](2) After the Kalinga war, the Emperor Ashoka embraced Buddhism and patronised it highly such that his whole Empire spread over almost the whole of North India became the domain of Buddhism...

..beating out Hinduism.

Then the Buddhist Monks propogated Buddhism all over India... converting all the People to Buddhism, starting from the Kings.

(3) Consequently due to lack of Patronisation, the Hinduism gradually became almost exrinct, until the advent of the Great Sankaracharya, who revived Hinduism, the Vedic Religion.

(4) Adhi Sankaracharya took up a dynamic lead with a vow to rout out Buddhism and Jainism at the earliest,

...and Throne up Hinduism again at the earliest...

Just within a short period of 16 years... He travelled all over India extensively alongwith his main disciple assistants... almost by foot... in search of each Religious Monk Leader of every Region in those hard days

...and challenged them on the Veracity and Viability of Buddhism in counter to Vedic Religion, so called Hinduism.

Invariably Sankaracharya won over every Opponent Leader in the Debate and converted them back to Hinduism along with thousands of their disciples...

...conforming to the pre-conditions.

Thus Hinduism got revived prominently in North India.

(5) Then he took up South India, where Buddhism was firm-rooted with its Head-quarters at Kanchipuram.

He determined to fight it out at its capital itself and so established his Headquarters at Kanchi, and achieved his goal, by defeating all the Kanchi mutt Buddhist heads too.

Eventually the whole of South India too reversed back to Hinduism, only because of the Sole warfoot endeavour of the Great Sankaracharya....the INVINCIBLE of that era.

(6) How Buddhism got spread.... out of India.?

Because of Sankamithra the Daughter of Emperor Asoka... who travelled extensively out of India along with a Batch pf Monks and spread Buddhism...

....exploiting the widespread IGNORANCE, INNOCENCE and poverty of peasants...

...they could be converted from Hinduism (as per History -Not my Opinion)

(7) If Sankaracharya would have set his feet... out of India too...

Hinduism would not have lost its glory there, and Buddhism would have been wiped out almost radically out of India too.!

(8) The main point of Sankaracharya against Buddhism was... that Buddhism is NOT AT ALL A RELIGION...

..but the Human Code of Conduct... of MORAL VALUES...

...and NOT BEYOND... towards the Soul aspects... as is necessary to be qualified as Religion.

Because Buddhism is SOONYA VAADHA.... Does not clearly and pinpointedly speak about God, the Supreme Ruler of Universe.

And even within Buddhism there exist lot of Self-contradictions. .

... it got split up into several splinters... conspicuously with the two prominent Branches as KEENA-YANA and MAHA-YANA

Buddhist Monk- Heads of various divisions... used to constantly vie and oppose with each other...

....amongst themselves of one and the same Religion, Buddhism...

...which unhealthy trend helped Sankaracharya to rout out the whole of Buddhism easily..

....one by one of contradictory divisions.

(9) Concurrently Sankaracharya became cautious to safeguard Hinduism because of similar probable trend in Hinduism too..

...by means of several Branches as Saivam, Saktham, Ganapathyam, Kaumaaram Sauram etc.. within One composite Vedic Religion Hinduism

[html:7b5c15ac3c]
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p213/sudhaama/Thiru-Oct07/Krishna21.jpg
[/html:7b5c15ac3c]Hence Sankaracharya's second battle was to correct such a SICKLY MAN-MADE ATMOSPHERE within one and the same Religion... the Vedic Hindu Religion.

So he went in search of each such Branch-heads, challenged them for debate and won over everyone of them invariably...

Ultimately he established the VEDIC TRUTH.. that all those Six main Branches of ONE HINDU RELIGION...

....Comprising of various Sub-divisions... as Saivam, Saktham etc ..the the God-made branches of MOSAIC FORM...

...being WIDEST OPTIONS... made available, suiting to the individual Mind-set of the multi-faceted devotees.

Rather they are the Branches of One Common Religion... Indirect Vaishnawam... with multi-paths....

...leading towards ONE COMMON GOAL..... Paramathma NARAYANA...

..since Lord Narayana is the SUPREME VEDIC GOD... who has created several other Gods...

..through whom Narayana, so called Parameswara bestows His grace... as the Common Protecor Ruler for ALL HINDUS..

...as categorically declared by Vedas.

Vedic Sankara-Bashyam, Geetha-Bashyam and Sahasranama Bashyam of Sankaracharya firmly assert....

....such an UNDISPUTABLE Vedic stand... quite clearly, undoubtedly and categorically.

Ultimately Sankaracharya could unite all those Splinters of Hinduism within on fold of Vedic Religion, so called Hinduism.

(10) But for the advent of the GREAT SEER Sankaracharya... the whole of India NOW would have been chanting...

...."Buddham charanam gachaami. Sangam charanam gachaami Dhammam charanam gachaami..!!!...

..similar to most of the present Thailand, Burma (Myanmar), Srilanka regions.,..

...wherein the Great Mahaan... the Reincarnation (Awathara) of the God PARAMA-SHIVA Himself...

... as Adhi Sankarachrya.... did not ever set his sacred feet.
..
.
.

[PARAMASHIVAN]

.


...leading towards ONE COMMON GOAL..... Paramathma NARAYANA...

..since Lord Narayana is the SUPREME VEDIC GOD... who has created several other Gods...

..through whom Narayana, so called Parameswara bestows His grace... as the Common Protecor Ruler for ALL HINDUS..
.
.

Sudhamma sir,

I am really sorry to say this, this is nothing but fanatism from vaishnavites, as Far as I know sankaracharya does not refer to the supreme being as 'naryayna'. This Narayana became famous, thanks to our cult creator and brain washing founder 'A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada during the 60's , it bacme cult amongst 'Gypsy' like americans in USA.. It was him and another film producer called 'Ramanand saagar' who bought this 'Narayana' concept, in the name 'International Society for Krishna Consciousness'

As you are aware shaivites completley rejects the above theory!

[PARAMASHIVAN]

.

.

(7) If Sankaracharya would have set his feet... out of India too...

Hinduism would not have lost its glory there, and Buddhism would have been wiped out almost radically out of India too.!
.

Sudhamm sir

Pardon me, If I am wrong, didn't the Chola Monarchy rule south and central India during 'Adi Shankararchrya' period , ie. 7th century?? Chola's ruled burma, thailand, indonesia , malaysia, sri lanka and as far as Philipines??? Didn't they establish Shaivism there?? then how did budhism manage to survive in those places?? interestingly how did 'Islam' got spread 90% of Indonesia????

[Sudhaama]

[tscii:983677c18d].
.


.

...leading towards ONE COMMON GOAL..... Paramathma NARAYANA...

..since Lord Narayana is the SUPREME VEDIC GOD... who has created several other Gods...

..through whom Narayana, so called Parameswara bestows His grace... as the Common Protecor Ruler for ALL HINDUS..
.
.

Sudhamma sir,

I am really sorry to say this, this is nothing but fanatism from vaishnavites, as Far as I know sankaracharya does not refer to the supreme being as 'naryayna'. This Narayana became famous, thanks to our cult creator and brain washing founder 'A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada during the 60's , it bacme cult amongst 'Gypsy' like americans in USA.. It was him and another film producer called 'Ramanand saagar' who bought this 'Narayana' concept, in the name 'International Society for Krishna Consciousness'

As you are aware shaivites completley rejects the above theory!

Dear Paramashiva,

Welcome to differ with me.

But please assert your stand by means of counter-points SPECIFICALLY....

..quoting from Sankaracharya's works and Biography.
.





(7) If Sankaracharya would have set his feet... out of India too...

Hinduism would not have lost its glory there, and Buddhism would have been wiped out almost radically out of India too.!
.

Sudhamm sir

Pardon me, If I am wrong, didn't the Chola Monarchy rule south and central India during 'Adi Shankararchrya' period , ie. 7th century?? Chola's ruled burma, thailand, indonesia , malaysia, sri lanka and as far as Philipines??? Didn't they establish Shaivism there?? then how did budhism manage to survive in those places?? interestingly how did 'Islam' got spread 90% of Indonesia????

Chola Empire covered... partly South India, SriLanka, Burma (Myanmar), Singapore, Malaysia, Maldives, Indonesia and partly Philippines.

In Indonesia there exists a River… named KAMPAR River… as a proof of the spread of the wings of Chola dynasty there too.

Chola Empire was founded only in 8th century ruling over a large Empire for about 500 years upto 13th century

Adhi Sankaracharya’s Life-period was just for 32 years during 788 – 820 A.D.

...prior to Chola’s period.

No doubt, Cholas established Hinduism all through their Empire especially Saivam of Nayanmars.

Sankaracharya was so much over-burdened during his very short Life-time...

...that he could not have any time to spare for taking up the task out of India too.

..[/tscii:983677c18d]

[PARAMASHIVAN]

1) Adi Shankaracharya born on :- 788 CE

2) Chola dynasty was from 300 BC till 1279 right?

So surely 'Adi Shankaracharya' was alive during the Chola times, am I wrong? :oops:

[podalangai]

I am really sorry to say this, this is nothing but fanatism from vaishnavites, as Far as I know sankaracharya does not refer to the supreme being as 'naryayna'.

He does, at several places, as 'Narayana', 'Vishnu' or 'Hari'. For example, in his Brahmasutra Bhashya, commenting on sutra 1.2.7 (referring to meditation on 'Hari' in the salagramam); or in his commentary on Mandukyakarika, commenting on karika 4.1 (where he speaks of 'Narayana purushottama'); or most unequivocally in his commentary to sutra 2.2.42 (in the Brahmasutra bhashya) where he refers to Narayana (specifically, using that name) as 'paramatma sarvatma'. A scholar will be able to cite many more instances - these are what I can pull out. All this makes perfect sense if you understand what Adi Shankaracharya was trying to do.


As you are aware shaivites completley rejects the above theory!

Well, some of them do anyway, usually by arguing that each of these verses refers to something less than Parabrahman. Others don't (there are many advaitin communities in Tamil Nadu and South India which have no problem with Vaishnavism). I think the original Sanskrit is quite clear, but that's only my opinion.

Ultimately, the point is that it makes very little sense to project Shaivite-Vaishnavite sectarianism - which in its virulent form doesn't go much further back than the period of the Imperial Cholas - onto Adi Shankaracharya. It's about as absurd as trying to interpret the rivalry between the Cholas and Pandiyas in the light of DMK-AIADMK rivalry. Shankaracharya was not a sectarian Shaivite or a sectarian Vaishnavite, because sectarian Shaivism and Vaishnavism did not exist in his day, thank God.

[podalangai]

1) Adi Shankaracharya born on :- 788 CE

2) Chola dynasty was from 300 BC till 1279 right?

So surely 'Adi Shankaracharya' was alive during the Chola times, am I wrong? :oops:
The Chola kingdom more or less disappeared between the 3rd century AD and the 9th century AD. There are no records of the kingdom or dynasty during this time. The Chola kingdom was reestablished by Vijayalaya Chozhan, who claimed to be the heir to the Chola throne, in 848 AD (approximately). We don't really know what happened to the Cholas in the interim. It's much the same with the Pandiyas - they disappear between the 3rd century AD and around 590 AD when Kadungon Pandiyan reestablished the kingdom. Adi Shankaracharya lived in a period when the Pandiyan kingdom had been reestablished, but not the Chola kingdom.

[PARAMASHIVAN]

I am really sorry to say this, this is nothing but fanatism from vaishnavites, as Far as I know sankaracharya does not refer to the supreme being as 'naryayna'.

He does, at several places, as 'Narayana', 'Vishnu' or 'Hari'. For example, in his Brahmasutra Bhashya, commenting on sutra 1.2.7 (referring to meditation on 'Hari' in the salagramam); or in his commentary on Mandukyakarika, commenting on karika 4.1 (where he speaks of 'Narayana purushottama'); or most unequivocally in his commentary to sutra 2.2.42 (in the Brahmasutra bhashya) where he refers to Narayana (specifically, using that name) as 'paramatma sarvatma'. A scholar will be able to cite many more instances - these are what I can pull out. All this makes perfect sense if you understand what Adi Shankaracharya was trying to do



Podalangai sir,

I know he mentiones about Narayana, and all other names of God, but as Far as I know he does not refer naryana as 'Supreme being' he refers the supreme being as 'Parama Shiva' as far as I know

[PARAMASHIVAN]

Ultimately, the point is that it makes very little sense to project Shaivite-Vaishnavite sectarianism - which in its virulent form doesn't go much further back than the period of the Imperial Cholas - onto Adi Shankaracharya. It's about as absurd as trying to interpret the rivalry between the Cholas and Pandiyas in the light of DMK-AIADMK rivalry. Shankaracharya was not a sectarian Shaivite or a sectarian Vaishnavite, because sectarian Shaivism and Vaishnavism did not exist in his day, thank God.

I completley agree with you podlangai sir, but what really annoys me is the brain washed ISKON members , they are extremley fanatical, they completley reject the idea of Saivam, and promote vaishnavam as the superior. They are just blindly following a follower, who has wrote some books based on various upanisad, geetha , puranas and his 'OWN' views.. This seem more like cult to me than religious practice

[Sudhaama]

.


Conforming to Devotee's SELF-ASSIGNED Faith, Self-centred Perception...


...Mindset, Propensities, Imagination, Will and LOFTY WISHES.!



....although CONTRADICTORY amongst themselves.!!!








I am really sorry to say this, this is nothing but fanatism from vaishnavites, as Far as I know sankaracharya does not refer to the supreme being as 'naryayna'.

He does, at several places, as 'Narayana', 'Vishnu' or 'Hari'.

.... All this makes perfect sense if you understand what Adi Shankaracharya was trying to do



Podalangai sir,

I know he mentiones about Narayana, and all other names of God, but as Far as I know he does not refer naryana as 'Supreme being' he refers the supreme being as 'Parama Shiva' as far as I know


[html:18b6fcc1a2]
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p213/sudhaama/2008/Thiru-Feb2008/Siva59.jpg
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p213/sudhaama/2008/Thiru-Feb2008/Sankara10.jpg
[/html:18b6fcc1a2] First of all, I am unable to understand...

..why this UNNECESSARY discussion...

....amongst WE, THE FOLLOWERS...

....on who is the PARAMATHMA .... SUPREME GOD....

....the Omnipotent ONE SUPER-COMMANDER over all other Gods.

Hinduism is the only Religion which renders ample Freedom and Liberty to worship and believe any Vedic God as the Supreme, at the devotees own choice... and WILL.

Yes. If a Saivite believes Lord Siva as the Supreme God / Paramathma... he / she is at Liberty to believe and worship so.

Similarly a Shaaktha believes Shakthi or Kali as the Supreme Paramathma, he / she can worship and chant accordingly....

...and parallelly the other Sectarians amongst the Six Sects... created by One Paramaathma Narayana...

..as Various Elementary paths towards One Common Goal...

...by Sauram, Gaanapathyam, Kaumaram, Saivam, Saaktham and SWAABHAAVIKAM.

The Supreme God created for the convenience of Mosaic form of Humanity...

....seeking PRIVATE Options at the devotees own choice..

...similar to various sorts of Food as Options.... while all of them render the same nutritions in different forms and Ingredients.

Accordingly various Puranas... other than the common 18 Puranas... depict different Gods' Greatness... CONTRADICTING EACH OTHER...

..such as Muruga the Supreme... the Guru for Siva....


[html:18b6fcc1a2]
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p213/sudhaama/Thiru-Feb07/Muruha3.jpg
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p213/sudhaama/Thiru-Feb07/Muruha2.gif
[/html:18b6fcc1a2]


...Ganesa the Prime God who created other Gods...

...Vishnu and Brahma searched for the Head and Feet of Siva and failed by Adi-mudi Kaanhaa padalam (as portrayed by Nayanmars)....

..Shakthi Parvathi was defeated by Nataraja, Siva...

...Shakthi maatha is the Supreme creator Ruler over Vishnu Siva and other Gods...

..who as Kali, defeated Lord Siva...

[html:18b6fcc1a2]
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p213/sudhaama/Thiru-Feb07/Kali2.jpg
[/html:18b6fcc1a2]. ...and so on.

...to suit the specific sectarian's SELF-CENTRED WISHES... although they are the VARIOUS FALSE BELIEFS...

...since Not True... conforming to Vedas.

So to mean... all these Six Sects are the various IMAGINARY FAITHS... as the tributary Feeder-paths....

....towards the ULTIMATE ONE COMMON MAIN PATH ....VAISHNAWAM....

....as clearly declared by Vedas.

The most interesting part of Vedic Religion Hinduism is... that it renders as the Sixth Option named as... SWAABHAAVIKAM...

By which the devotee can worship any Doll, Tree, Mountain, River or ANY OBJECT of his own making too.... as God... if he can believe it so.

In such a case, the Supreme God enters into that Object and renders His Grace...

...making the Devotees Faith as True... even though a False belief.

Vedas categorically assert that the Supreme Lord Paramathma is Narayana only...

....and Narayana only the PARAMESWARA in different forms and Names.

Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, Krishna Chaithanya, Thukaram as well as even the German Scholar Dr Max Muller... have further clarified that Truth... in ONE VOICE.

Sankaracharya too... has clearly asserted such a Vedic Truth as Narayana is the ONLY PARAMATHMA.

[html:18b6fcc1a2]
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p213/sudhaama/Thiru-Feb07/Vishnu33.jpg
[/html:18b6fcc1a2]


We can observe in Kerala Temples... even now-a-days...

...the devotees chant ACHA NARAYANA (Oh Father Narayana)... while entering Siva Temples ... and...

...AMMAE NARAYANA (Oh Mother Narayana)... while entering Shakthi temples...

...even if there may be NO SANNIDHI in those Temples... for GOD NARAYANA.!

That is the traditional custom laid down by Adhi Sankaracharya...

...to ELIMINATE ANY PROBABLE CONFUSIONS.... in the minds of Devotees on the ONLY Paramathma NARAYANA... as per Vedas...

...who bestows grace through different Gods, Forms and Names as per individuals choice and wishes.!

Vedic Religion Hinduism is extolled by Dr. Annie Besant, Dr Max Muller and several other International Scholars too...

....as the Great Religion... UNPARALLEL IN THE WORLD...

...mainly because of such WIDE OPTIONS... provided to cater to the varied individual devotees tastes and choices...

..conforming to the Devotee's own self-assigned Faith, Imagination and LOFTY WISHES.!

....although CONTRADICTORY amongst themselves.!!!
.

[PARAMASHIVAN]

.


Conforming to Devotee's SELF-ASSIGNED Faith, Self-centred Perception...


...Mindset, Propensities, Imagination, Will and LOFTY WISHES.!



....although CONTRADICTORY amongst themselves.!!!








I am really sorry to say this, this is nothing but fanatism from vaishnavites, as Far as I know sankaracharya does not refer to the supreme being as 'naryayna'.

He does, at several places, as 'Narayana', 'Vishnu' or 'Hari'.

.... All this makes perfect sense if you understand what Adi Shankaracharya was trying to do



Podalangai sir,

I know he mentiones about Narayana, and all other names of God, but as Far as I know he does not refer naryana as 'Supreme being' he refers the supreme being as 'Parama Shiva' as far as I know




http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p213/sudhaama/2008/Thiru-Feb2008/Siva59.jpg
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p213/sudhaama/2008/Thiru-Feb2008/Sankara10.jpg
First of all, I am unable to understand...

..why this UNNECESSARY discussion...

....amongst WE, THE FOLLOWERS...

....on who is the PARAMATHMA .... SUPREME GOD....

....the Omnipotent ONE SUPER-COMMANDER over all other Gods.

Hinduism is the only Religion which renders ample Freedom and Liberty to worship and believe any Vedic God as the Supreme, at the devotees own choice... and WILL.

Yes. If a Saivite believes Lord Siva as the Supreme God / Paramathma... he / she is at Liberty to believe and worship so.

Similarly a Shaaktha believes Shakthi or Kali as the Supreme Paramathma, he / she can worship and chant accordingly....

...and parallelly the other Sectarians amongst the Six Sects... created by One Paramaathma Narayana...

..as Various Elementary paths towards One Common Goal...

...by Sauram, Gaanapathyam, Kaumaram, Saivam, Saaktham and SWAABHAAVIKAM.

The Supreme God created for the convenience of Mosaic form of Humanity...

....seeking PRIVATE Options at the devotees own choice..

...similar to various sorts of Food as Options.... while all of them render the same nutritions in different forms and Ingredients.

Accordingly various Puranas... other than the common 18 Puranas... depict different Gods' Greatness... CONTRADICTING EACH OTHER...

..such as Muruga the Supreme... the Guru for Siva....




http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p213/sudhaama/Thiru-Feb07/Muruha3.jpg
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p213/sudhaama/Thiru-Feb07/Muruha2.gif



...Ganesa the Prime God who created other Gods...

...Vishnu and Brahma searched for the Head and Feet of Siva and failed by Adi-mudi Kaanhaa padalam (as portrayed by Nayanmars)....

..Shakthi Parvathi was defeated by Nataraja, Siva...

...Shakthi maatha is the Supreme creator Ruler over Vishnu Siva and other Gods...

..who as Kali, defeated Lord Siva...



http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p213/sudhaama/Thiru-Feb07/Kali2.jpg
. ...and so on.

...to suit the specific sectarian's SELF-CENTRED WISHES... although they are the VARIOUS FALSE BELIEFS...

...since Not True... conforming to Vedas.

So to mean... all these Six Sects are the various IMAGINARY FAITHS... as the tributary Feeder-paths....

....towards the ULTIMATE ONE COMMON MAIN PATH ....VAISHNAWAM....

....as clearly declared by Vedas.

The most interesting part of Vedic Religion Hinduism is... that it renders as the Sixth Option named as... SWAABHAAVIKAM...

By which the devotee can worship any Doll, Tree, Mountain, River or ANY OBJECT of his own making too.... as God... if he can believe it so.

In such a case, the Supreme God enters into that Object and renders His Grace...

...making the Devotees Faith as True... even though a False belief.

Vedas categorically assert that the Supreme Lord Paramathma is Narayana only...

....and Narayana only the PARAMESWARA in different forms and Names.

Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, Krishna Chaithanya, Thukaram as well as even the German Scholar Dr Max Muller... have further clarified that Truth... in ONE VOICE.

Sankaracharya too... has clearly asserted such a Vedic Truth as Narayana is the ONLY PARAMATHMA.



http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p213/sudhaama/Thiru-Feb07/Vishnu33.jpg



We can observe in Kerala Temples... even now-a-days...

...the devotees chant ACHA NARAYANA (Oh Father Narayana)... while entering Siva Temples ... and...

...AMMAE NARAYANA (Oh Mother Narayana)... while entering Shakthi temples...

...even if there may be NO SANNIDHI in those Temples... for GOD NARAYANA.!

That is the traditional custom laid down by Adhi Sankaracharya...

...to ELIMINATE ANY PROBABLE CONFUSIONS.... in the minds of Devotees on the ONLY Paramathma NARAYANA... as per Vedas...

...who bestows grace through different Gods, Forms and Names as per individuals choice and wishes.!

Vedic Religion Hinduism is extolled by Dr. Annie Besant, Dr Max Muller and several other International Scholars too...

....as the Great Religion... UNPARALLEL IN THE WORLD...

...mainly because of such WIDE OPTIONS... provided to cater to the varied individual devotees tastes and choices...

..conforming to the Devotee's own self-assigned Faith, Imagination and LOFTY WISHES.!

....although CONTRADICTORY amongst themselves.!!!
.

Kali defeats Shiva
Shiva defeats both Vishnu and Bhrama
Bhrama was cursed for lying about reaching shiva's head
Rama prayed to shiva in ramayana
Parsurama was Shiva bhaktha
krishna prays to shiva in duwapara yuga

--- I have not finished yet :lol2:

Vishnu, bhrama and co could not drink the poison from vasuki, hence shiva helps out
shaivites says shiva created vishnu, bhrama and co
vaishnavites say vishnu created bhramma from his 'pokkuzh'
Maa ji created Shiva, Vishnu and Bhrama.

There was problems between Shaivites and Vaishnavites, so they came to resolve it by saying parvathi was vishnu's sister, hence vishnu became shiva's machaan, so they don't fight.. sssappaaa enna mudiyala :rotfl:

How on earth a Lehman could understand hinduism??? Contradiction at it's utmost level, various stories and myths based ' PERSONAL VIEWS' ... Ultimatley knowbody knows anything and we are all back to square one and will be in sqaure one

....This world exists for you when at one of your five senses are working, else none of these exists for you!

You mind your iontellect is based in half memeory (what you have learnt from your experience) and the rest imagination. THIS IS NOT THE REALITY OF LIFE

[pradheep]

THIS IS NOT THE REALITY OF LIFE
If you cannot rely on mind and intellect, what can you rely on?. What is the reality of life then?

[PARAMASHIVAN]

Krishna - The greatest devotee of Lord shiva.
Krisna doing Shiva Dhyan


Krishna is one of the greatest devotee of Lord shiva. As per mahabharata, krishna is believed to be the reincarnation of Narayan maharshi, who was also one of the greatest devotee of lord shiva. The Mahabharat and Shaiva puranas clearly says that Krishna was devoted to Lord shiva even in his past lives. Krishna explained 'Siva sahasranama' to yudhistara(Dharmaraja) and also told him how he got the supreme Advaita jnana (nondual knowledge) because of lord shiva. It was explained in Anushasan parva of mahabharat.

"
Rudra bhakthya thu krishnena jagat vyaptham mahathmana,
Tham prasadhya thadha devam bhadaryam kila bharatha.

Arthath priya harathwam cha sarva lokeshu vai yadhaa,
Prapthavaaneva rajendra suvarnaakshan maheswaraath."


Meaning:

The great Lord Krishna, due to his devotion to Supreme lord Rudra,Has spread all over the universe, Oh Bharatha, Oh king of kings,After making Lord Shiva pleased by his penance in Bhadrinath,He has attained the state of being more dear,Than all the worlds and all aspects of knowledge.

"
Yuge yuge thu krushnena thoshitho vai maheswara,
Bhakthya paramaya chaiva prathi sruthwa mahatmana. "

Meaning :
Lord Maheshwara becomes pleased and happy yugas after yugas, by this Krishna who is devotee of Lord Shiva.

Krishna got several boons from lord shiva even in his past life as Narayana muni.

Bhagavatam explicitly states that Krsna worshiped Lord Shiva .

"ekadā deva-yātrāyāḿ
gopālā jāta-kautukāḥ
anobhir anaḍud-yuktaiḥ
prayayus te 'mbikā-vanam ( SB 10.34.1)
"
Meaning:
One day Gopala along with his mates, eager to take a trip to worship Lord Śiva, traveled by bullock carts to the Ambikā forest ( SB 10.34.1)

"
tatra snātvā sarasvatyāḿ
devaḿ paśu-patiḿ vibhum
ānarcur arhaṇair bhaktyā
devīḿ ca ṇṛpate 'mbikām ( SB 10.34.2)"

"O King, after arriving there, Krsna along with his mates bathed in the Sarasvatī River and then devotedly worshiped with various paraphernalia the All powerful and all pervading Godhead Lord Paśupati [devaḿ paśu-patiḿ vibhum] and his consort, goddess Ambikā. ( SB 10.34.2)



Krishna and Gopis Worshiping Lord Shiva.

Lord Rama Worshiping the supreme lord Shiva.


Shiva Blessing Vishnu by giving Sudarshana Chakra as a Boon for his devotion towards him.


Krsna taking blessings from Supreme Lord Shiva
.

[PARAMASHIVAN]

Sudhama sir

Pls explain the above posting !

[anbu_kathir]

Paramashivan Sir,

I think it is well known that these contradictions do exist. How to resolve this? I personally perceive nothing wrong in fervently believing in a particular way or sect. One might therefore claim a different interpretation. I guess it is only because of this acceptance of different interpretations that Hinduism has survived in its form today, as a religion which has preserved many of the archaic mythological forms without much change.

Of course, enforcing it upon someone else wouldn't be appropriate.

Love and Light.


Krishna - The greatest devotee of Lord shiva.
Krisna doing Shiva Dhyan
.

[PARAMASHIVAN]

Paramashivan Sir,

I think it is well known that these contradictions do exist. How to resolve this? I personally perceive nothing wrong in fervently believing in a particular way or sect. One might therefore claim a different interpretation. I guess it is only because of this acceptance of different interpretations that Hinduism has survived in its form today, as a religion which has preserved many of the archaic mythological forms without much change.

Of course, enforcing it upon someone else wouldn't be appropriate.

Love and Light.


Krishna - The greatest devotee of Lord shiva.
Krisna doing Shiva Dhyan
.


Exactly this is what ISKON do 'Brain wash' this is what i was trying to address.. but never worked, instead it all went every where

BTW, I am not a sir (certainly not old enough to me any way :lol2: )

[PARAMASHIVAN]

THIS IS NOT THE REALITY OF LIFE
If you cannot rely on mind and intellect, what can you rely on?. What is the reality of life then?

Intellect has limitations even to GREATEST scholars :)

[anbu_kathir]

Exactly this is what ISKON do 'Brain wash' this is what i was trying to address.. but never worked, instead it all went every where


ISKCON has its share of sensible people. But as an organization, its ideals are a bit misplaced as you said; one more group which claims to have the 'only' way.. :sigh2:. There ain't much one can do about it. That "all paths lead to the same end" is true can be seen only from within when one has expanded beyond one's own ideologies. Argumentative responses from outside are generally either ignored or are dealt with using violence in thought, word or/and deed.




BTW, I am not a sir (certainly not old enough to me any way :lol2: )

Ok, Sir :P.

Love and Light.

[Sudhaama]

.


HUMANITARIAN Outlook.... by BROAD-MINDED Soul-pursuit... Vital.!

Mankind being the Supreme-birth on Earth...

..born to exploit the Maximum benefit of Earthly birth... as ENRICHED MAN...


Human-Values, Social-sense and Unified advancement towards One COMMON God...


...by means of Super-Wisdom and HEARTY SPIRIT of Unity in Diversity


... must be cultivated within Ourselves... through SELF-REALISATION.!


.


Sudhama sir

Pls explain the above posting !

Dear PARAMASHIVA,

Please do not drag me into UNNECESSARY Discussions of PAROCHIAL Outlook and Controversy.

I am not interested to discuss nor argue... as to who is the PARAMATHMA... Supreme God as per Vedas...

...even though I can prove categorically.

Because such discussions on a high Subject of Spiritualism... is not only FUTILE... but also will only result in mutual animosity...

...as well as the unhealthy divisive entities amongst Freinds.

In brief.. I point out... if You believe Lord Siva is the Paramathma Supreme God... Well, you can believe so...

...I will neither object to your PERSONAL FAITH... even if it is contrary to Vedic Truth.

Similarly I treat all other Sectarians including the Swaabhavikaa sect... who have Faith in any object like Stone, Tree or Doll.. or any such ordinary substances.

I have already detailed in my previous posting.

How and Why.?

For example if you say..."My Mother is GREAT FOR ME"... and Greater than Your Mother FOR ME...

...I should not object... nor differ

Because for everyone his / her own Mother is Great, Greater and Greatest...

..than the others Mothers.

So is the case for Ones own Mother-Tongue, Motherland, Profession and such other PRIVATE DOMAINS, CONCERNS, AND ATTACHMENTS

In this respect, you can understand what Thamizh-Marhai Thiruvaaymozhi clarifies in a BROAD-MINDED Outlook of Human-Values...

...entirely true to the Vedic-Sense of Universal Humanity.

Anybody who needs more clarification... can refer to Ramanujacharya's public addresses...

...in a NON-RELIGIOUS... HUMANITARIAN Outlook.... Mankind being the Supreme-birth on Earth...

..born to exploit the Maximum benefit of Earthly birth...

...by means of Human-Values, Social-Spirit and Unified advancement towards One God... by Unity in Diversities.

Rather if You believe that God Siva showers the Grace to you upto your ENTIRE SATISFACTIOJN...

...as you are entitled to expect from the so called Super-power PROTECTOR God...

..well, others can have nothing to comment on it

But please remember... others of various other Hindu sects too... RESERVE THEIR PERSONAL RIGHTS to follow their own individual path of choice...

...to similarly believe on Muruga, Kali, Soorya, Vinayaka, Iyappa, Vishnu, or even a Doll or Rock as the Ones Protector...

...by ones own individual perception and capability of understanding

...as it may be convincing to them as appropriate for the respective individual

[html:f58217facd]
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p213/sudhaama/Thiru-Feb07/Kali2.jpg
[/html:f58217facd]In my last posting, You might have seen the Picture of Bengali Idols depicting Kali defeating Lord Siva...

..and the worst of all is...

...Kali is tramping over Lord Siva.!.

Even in spite of strong objections and vociferous disputes from Saivites... it could not improve the situation...

..because the Bengali Sakthas claimed, based on DEVI-BHAGAWATHAM...

..."Look You Saivites have made a Purana at Chidambaram that Our Kali was defeated by Lord Siva.

That was the previous part of the True puranas.

And ours is the subsequent part of Purana... which declares our calm-natured Mother Durga... forced under PROVOCATION...

....became the angered Kali and took revenge on Siva...

..for Siva's UNDUE EXPLOITATION of Womanhood in Durga-devi." said the Bengali Sakthas.

Such disputes went on for centuries...

...marring the purpose and Spirit of Festivals, the Social congregations in a totally unique atmosphere of Soul-sense....

... backed by Unity and SOCIAL-DEVOTION...

Similar depictions of opposite senses killing the peaceful atmosphere during Festivals on Siva and Kali.... lead into frequent Public quarrels too.

Ultimately Sri Krishna Chaithanya intervened and settled the issue...

..by declaring that everyone sect can celebrate the Festivals... conforming to the respective Gurus preaching and Sectarian Puranas of ones own faith.

Can You or anyone convince the Bengali Sakthas better.?

I have already briefly clarified on this point.

If you need more analytical truth... please go through my Serial Article titled as...

Thamizh-Marhai Thiruvaaymozhi... under our Hub Magazines..

http://www.mayyam.com/unicode/cgi-bin/t2u.cgi?url=http://hubmagazine.mayyam.com/feb10/?t=13920

... on the subject of Vedic-sense in Tamil...

Vedas clearly and undoubtedly declare that GOD IS ONE...

...HE IS NARAYANA... the Paramathma

...All other Gods are His various manifestations... in different Forms and Names.

So whichever God, One worships... such prayers reach the Ultimate Paramathma Narayana only...

...who showers His Grace through the respective God... on whom the Devotee reposes faith... and prays.






From Vedas


Narayana Param Brahma thathvam Narayana Paraha...

Narayana Paro Jyothih Athman Narayana Paraha...

Narayana Paro Dhyaatha Dhyanam Narayana Paraha


.
.Meaning:

Narayana is the ONLY Paramathma, the Supreme God for all Gods.

Narayana is the PARANJOTHI... the Supreme Jothi Paramathma for all Athmas to meditate.(because the Paramathma Narayana renders Grace-Powers to all other Gods)

Narayana is the Supreme Protector to whom all the Devotees are bound to believe and worship.!

.

[pradheep]

Intellect has limitations even to GREATEST scholars

Intellect has its limitations, but can solve the contrdictions that arise in the beleif system of the devotees. It is belief systems that causes wars between religions and within the various sects of a religion. Belief holds good only for the person, not for the whole lot. Belief's are subject to change , because the mind changes. What an individual or a group of indivudals believed can changed over time.

Wheareas Truth is Truth and does not depend on the belief of the mind. What you are bringing out is the belief of people and not the Truth. To do justice to the topic, we should discuss the Truth behind the "Belief"S and not the beleif's, because they are only subjective and changes over time. Truth is eternal and so it is Dharma and that is why our tradition is Sanadhana Dharma, the eternal truth and not eternal beleif's.

[PARAMASHIVAN]

.

Narayana is the ONLY Paramathma, the Supreme God for all Gods.

Narayana is the PARANJOTHI... the Supreme Jothi Paramathma for all Athmas to meditate.(because the Paramathma Narayana renders Grace-Powers to all other Gods)

Narayana is the Supreme Protector to whom all the Devotees are bound to believe and worship.!

.

Again One's one belief and perception , just like mine :P

[PARAMASHIVAN]

Intellect has its limitations, but can solve the contrdictions that arise in the beleif system of the devotees. It is belief systems that causes wars between religions and within the various sects of a religion. Belief holds good only for the person, not for the whole lot. Belief's are subject to change , because the mind changes. What an individual or a group of indivudals believed can changed over time.



thank you, this what i was trying to express, but i may have used words wrongly :oops:



Wheareas Truth is Truth and does not depend on the belief of the mind.


Thanks you sir, this is what i was trying to tell you before, where you have misunderstood me, I was saying 'Mind will grasp any crap from the environment in it's memory and build up any kind of imagination and assume that is the reality (beliefs like you said ), in fact these things which are in your mind are illsuion (Maya) subject to changes according the circumstances you may face, this mind is never be in a constant and it is like a variable, always changing from one state to another (Maya). This is NOT the truth about LIFE

In my view creator (GOD) created the whole universe From living things to and panja bootha's for survival (know one yet knows the reason behind GOD'S creation and will never know), humans made it complicated, highly complexed , developed certain emotions , made all the suffereing in the world (but the blame is blamed on GOD) and created various beliefs , faiths as a way of consolidation for their suffering... in the people mind, they need GOD's service when they are sad or in needy, know one wants or even think about the creator, when they are happy 'the word 'GOD' does not exist for them! This clearly indicates 99.9% seek GOD when they in trouble... which means GOD is like a Friend to them who is JUST there to help you but nothing else,....these are all human characters

[pradheep]

In my view creator (GOD) created the whole universe From living things to and panja bootha's for survival (know one yet knows the reason behind

When the mind sees a creation then it creates a creator behind the creator, because Mind's nature is to "Create". The mind then puts the creator to be be bigger than the creation. Then out of fear, the mind then thinks that it should please the creator otherwise it will be punished. From that point on it creates a whole series of belief system. When two members in that lineage has difference of opinion then they create two different sections in that belief system. this is the trend we see in all religions.

We see this in Hinduism, where people argue about Shiva and Vishnu, who is greater. Well , without understanding that both Shiva and Vishnu symbolism are both the creation of the mind, there will be always arguements and wars on that. If one understands that Shiva and Vishnu are the various Cosmic laws (Dharma) on one's own self, the differences becomes mute.

I was invited to a college last week to talk to graduate students doing comparative world religions. My talk was on Hinduism. One of the question from a student was, what happens to me when I dont believe in Jesus is my savior. I answered it is only a belief and not a fact. In India a group tells me that If I dont believe in Krishna, then I be doomed. So says all religions. Now as a layman, I will be confused, which to believe?.

One thing is true is that from stand point of each religions, all of us are to be doomed. That is from Christian point of view, all Hindu's Buddhists, Jews, Muslims will be doomed. From Hindu point of view all christians, muslims, buddhists, jews will be doomed, if they dont believe in Krishna. From Muslim poinjt of views all others except they will be doomed. The same way each religious group thinks, except them all others will be doomed. In essence, everyone will be doomed.

Here in the forum hub we have friends who thinks if they dont believe in Shiva they will be doomed. The other one thinks if they dont believe in Vishnu they will be doomed.

The problem is that, the believers dont understand that belief is only a belief of the mind and not a Truth. My talk was then what is the difference between Truth and belief. How to know the Truth. The talk was based on Upanishads.

[anbu_kathir]

When the mind sees a creation then it creates a creator behind the creator, because Mind's nature is to "Create". The mind then puts the creator to be be bigger than the creation. Then out of fear, the mind then thinks that it should please the creator otherwise it will be punished. From that point on it creates a whole series of belief system. When two members in that lineage has difference of opinion then they create two different sections in that belief system. this is the trend we see in all religions.


Do you mean to say all mythologies and religions come out of fear?


Well , without understanding that both Shiva and Vishnu symbolism are both the creation of the mind, there will be always arguements and wars on that. If one understands that Shiva and Vishnu are the various Cosmic laws (Dharma) on one's own self, the differences becomes mute.

Super!



I was invited to a college last week to talk to graduate students doing comparative world religions.

If I may ask, where was this? Could you give some more details?


That is from Christian point of view, all Hindu's Buddhists, Jews, Muslims will be doomed. From Hindu point of view all christians, muslims, buddhists, jews will be doomed, if they dont believe in Krishna.

Got your point of course, but 'doomed' is a bit harsh for this list, I would say. Many hindus believe hinduism is 'superior' to other religious systems. However the others need not be 'doomed', they might probably evolve to a 'higher' birth that finally incorporates Hinduism :D. Also, there are subdivisions in each of these religions who have understand the metaphorical and non-literal interpretations of their own religions and therefore let go of this us-against-them attitude.



The problem is that, the believers dont understand that belief is only a belief of the mind and not a Truth. My talk was then what is the difference between Truth and belief. How to know the Truth. The talk was based on Upanishads.
Cool!

Love and Light.

[PARAMASHIVAN]

When the mind sees a creation then it creates a creator behind the creator, because Mind's nature is to "Create". The mind then puts the creator to be be bigger than the creation. Then out of fear, the mind then thinks that it should please the creator otherwise it will be punished. From that point on it creates a whole series of belief system. When two members in that lineage has difference of opinion then they create two different sections in that belief system. this is the trend we see in all religions.


Do you mean to say all mythologies and religions come out of fear?


possibly and possibly not , cos an unknown entity (in this cas GOD) often creates fear,confusion, Imagination and expectation because the entity is unknown!

[PARAMASHIVAN]

Well , without understanding that both Shiva and Vishnu symbolism are both the creation of the mind,


Thank you , thank you.. This is what I keep on saying about the mind.. combination of memory (what you have learnt from your 5 senses is stored as memory the rest is imagination based upon your memory, i.e what you have known)



If one understands that Shiva and Vishnu are the various Cosmic laws (Dharma) on one's own self, the differences becomes mute.


I know this very well, but i was just getting annoyed but fanatical missionising by ISCKON and some believers vasihnavites who simply make a 'Mockery' of everthing else by the views they believe in!

Another 'Major' sect which was excellent act missionising people is Christianity...

any way like I said, everything exsists in your mind! I have been brought as a ISwara believer, even though intellectually I am able to relate to every other religion, faiths etc and respect them, I follow this tradition that is my personal thing :)

[PARAMASHIVAN]

[tscii:1a714a8584]If we believe in something according to our convenience or based on our cultural influences, then there is a natural conflict the moment we come in contact with someone who believes in something else.

That is why some of the worst crimes in history have been committed in the name of God.

Essentially, belief systems stem from a basic problem that people are not sincere enough to admit that they do not know. If this sincerity to simply admit, “What I know, I know; what I do not know, I do not know” comes to us, then there is really no room for conflict.

There are two kinds of religions in the world. One seeks the benevolence of God while the other encourages one to manifest one’s own divinity. One teaches prayer, another seeks to manifest prayerfulness. Yoga Patanjali says it beautifully: When one knows how to be truly prayerful, prayer is not the means to reach God, but God is only the means so that we can pray.
[/tscii:1a714a8584]

[pradheep]

Do you mean to say all mythologies and religions come out of fear?
Dear Ak,
The nucleus of any religious organization is spiritual (Truth). Surrounding this Nucleus an organization grows with its own beliefs, rituals, customs, mythology, music, dance, arts, architecture, laws and rules etc etc.
The organization generates fear in the mind of the devotees to accept the Organization, while trying to feed the Spiritual Truth . It is like our mothers who create fear of a monster (poochandi) to the child resisting to eat food. Mother's objective is to make the rssisting child should food. Good intention. But the child carries a mental impression of a monster later creating problem to the same mother itself refusing to move around the house itself. Religious organizations does this same way.

Mythologies are not the product of fear. The Spiritual truth is not easy to understand to people who gives too much importance to mind. So mythologies are created to convey the Spiritual message in a palatable form to the mind.


Hinduism is a religion and "Sanatana Dharma" is its spiritual core. Unlike others religions where the the organization's belief is given more importance than the core, in Hinduism, teachers over ages came and rescued when the organization overthrows the core spirituality. This does not happen in other religions leading to fundamentalism.

In Hinduism there is no founder, not based on one single book but on many. Even the four vedas the foundation of Sanatana Dharma is composed of one thousand two hundred eighty recensions.

Just one single Rig veda is composed by not one person but by 356 Rishis, which includes female's also. So one could understand how great a society was, were both males and females contributed to the knowledge. isnt this like our science books. Any page we open in a physics text books is contributed not by one person, but hundreds of scientists. This is how sanatana Dharma is.

So Hinduism (Sanatana Dharma) is not a belief system (like some devotees have), it is a knowledge based way of life to know the highest Truth, that supports everything.

[PARAMASHIVAN]

[tscii:40b74b5707]Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev -

Mahashivratri is a night of many possibilities. It is the darkest night of the month. Its very darkness is cause for celebration. Normally, we tend to resist darkness and opt for light. On Shivratri, however, darkness is venerated as the symbol of creation and destruction.

The word Shiva literally means that which is not. That which is, is existence; that which is, is creation. That which is not is Shiva. That which is not means, if you open your eyes and look around, if your vision is for small things, you will see lots of creation. If your vision is really looking for big things, you will see that the biggest presence in existence is a vast emptiness. Just a few spots – which we call galaxies – are noticed, not the vast emptiness that holds. This vastness or unbounded emptiness is Shiva.

When we say Shiva, we are referring to this vast emptiness of existence. It is in the lap of this vast emptiness that all Creation has happened. Our ancient prayers are not about saving yourself, protecting yourself, or about doing better in life. The prayers have always been about ‘Oh lord, destroy me, so that I can become like Yourself.’

So when we say Shivratri, which is the darkest night of the month, it is an opportunity for us to dissolve our limitedness, to experience the unboundedness of the source of Creation, which is the seed in every human being. Shivaratri is an opportunity to bring yourself to that experience of the vast emptiness within every human being, which is the source of all Creation[/tscii:40b74b5707]

[anbu_kathir]

The mother-son-poochaandi example was bang on, I felt! :).



The nucleus of any religious organization is spiritual (Truth). Surrounding this Nucleus an organization grows with its own beliefs, rituals, customs, mythology, music, dance, arts, architecture, laws and rules etc etc.


Rituals (which are actually enactments of the myths) have been existent since the age of Neanderthal man, thats like around 1,00,000 years ago (or more). Even in India, I believe the philosophical treatises of the Upanishads have come only after to the earlier Vedic ritualistic traditions. The Vedic Gods themselves have their prototypes in the Gods of the earliest civilization near what was then called Sumer. While man's inner truth might have been the 'cause' for these myths, the wisdom that comes with the realization of inner truth is not immediately apparent from history, at least until the age of the Upanishads. In my thoughts, therefore, myths actually seem to precede philosophical treatises about Truth/God (not Absolute Truth of course).



The Spiritual truth is not easy to understand to people who gives too much importance to mind. So mythologies are created to convey the Spiritual message in a palatable form to the mind.


This might not be the only reason that mythology was 'created' (Myths have been likened to public-dreams in some psychoanalytical treatises in the distant and the recent past.. so 'created' might not be the accurate word here.. 'flowered' might be more precise I feel). One of my favourite authors, Joseph Campbell, used to say that mythology serves four functions : metaphysical/mystical, cosmological, sociological, and pedagogical.


http://brainstorm-services.com/wcu-2004/mythology.html[/url]]
Its metaphysical function is to awaken us to the mystery and wonder of creation, to open our minds and our senses to an awareness of the mystical "ground of being," the source of all phenomena. Its cosmological function is to describe the "shape" of the cosmos, the universe, our total world, so that the cosmos and all contained within it become vivid and alive for us, infused with meaning and significance; every corner, every rock, hill, stone, and flower has its place and its meaning in the cosmological scheme which the myth provides. Its sociological function is to pass down "the law," the moral and ethical codes for people of that culture to follow, and which help define that culture and its prevailing social structure. Its pedagogical function is to lead us through particular rites of passage that define the various significant stages of our lives-from dependency to maturity to old age, and finally, to our deaths, the final passage. The rites of passage bring us into harmony with the "ground of being" (a term often used by Joseph Campbell to refer to an unnamed, unspecified universal mystical power) and allow us to make the journey from one stage to another with a sense of comfort and purpose.


Love and Light.

[pradheep]

Dear AK
I also enjoy reading Campbell's works. I agree with your points.


While man's inner truth might have been the 'cause' for these myths, the wisdom that comes with the realization of inner truth is not immediately apparent from history, at least until the age of the Upanishads.
If realization is not apparent till age of Upanishads, then Vedas should have come after Upanishads were written. But it does not seems so.

Mythology is present is every culture. But overshadowing of organized religions, the mythology were left behind, stumbling the progress of spiritual growth.

In India however, mythology was well nourished giving way for spiritual growth, but again there was a problem here too. Attachment to the forms and names without the intended path, lead to wars of Shaivtes and vaishnavaites, which is still continuing in forumhubs.

[anbu_kathir]

If realization is not apparent till age of Upanishads, then Vedas should have come after Upanishads were written. But it does not seems so.


The ideas of complete internal realization of the world within oneself, Brahman as the impersonal Creator (which i believe is a clear expansion of the idea of a personal creator) seems to have occurred with the Upanishads. Realized people might have been around, but such ideas probably crystallized into accepted religion through the Upanishads only. Definitely it happened during the Upanishadic times, before that one can't be sure I think. This is a reference of some kind.. http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Brahman

In any case, I think the first known accounts of myths and rituals goes far back in time than first known accounts of Vedic Gods.. leave alone those of self-realized people.




Mythology is present is every culture. But overshadowing of organized religions, the mythology were left behind, stumbling the progress of spiritual growth.

In India however, mythology was well nourished giving way for spiritual growth, but again there was a problem here too. Attachment to the forms and names without the intended path, lead to wars of Shaivtes and vaishnavaites, which is still continuing in forumhubs.


Yeah!

Love and Light.

[Sudhaama]

.

Religion the highest Subject for Wisdom and Heart.. towards Soul-Emancipation...

...intended by God... for Mankind... the Super-birth on Earth.




.... Attachment to the forms and names without the intended path, lead to wars of Shaivtes and vaishnavaites, which is still continuing in forumhubs.

In fact, as Dr Max Muller, a German multi-faceted Scholar who has lauded highly, the Vedic Religion so called Hinduism...

[html:f5f5f3a12a]
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p213/sudhaama/Thiru-Oct07/Krishna21.jpg
[/html:f5f5f3a12a]..declaring that HINDUISM is NOT just ONE RELIGION at all....

...but a Rainbow beam of Guiding light of COMPOSITE RELIGION...

..alongside the Comprehensive form of Spiritual pursuit...

...as also a Rudimentary FOUNDATION of all popular Religions of the World.

Rainbow beam of Light... towards the higher plane of Spiritualism... comprising of varieties of Soul-paths towards One Supreme Paramathma Super-Soul

If One understands deeply... the analytical Meanings, Descriptions and Treatises of our Great Acharyas...

...We can find, there can be the LEAST SCOPE for any sort of serious Mutual disputes of antagonsim on this high subject of Soul-Emancipation.

Especially Sankaracharya's Sankara- Bashyam, Sahasranama Bashyam, Geetha-Bashyam, and Prasnothara-malika... categorically assert the Vedic Truth....

... on Paramathma-swaroopa as Narayana... One in all... as also All in One form of God...

..as further detailed in Bhagawad Geetha..

Unlike other Religions...the Greatness of Hindu Religion is that it seldom boasts nor preaches to others that Hinduism is the better and best amongst all Religions...

..but large-heartedly honours and recognises other Religions too... as the Various Courses of Rivers leading towards One Common Ocean, the Ultimate Goal for Humanity.

Then Why Such Vociferous disputes amongst Saivites and Vaishnavites.?

...that too...ONLY AMONGST TAMILIANS.?

The answer is VERY SIMPLE.

POLITICS INTERFERED IN RELIGION...

Yes. By One FANATIC SAIVITE.... Chozha Emperor, Kulothunga... who made it an Issue...

...and spread it as an EPIDEMIC all over His Empire in Asia

How.?

Hinduism is the ONLY LARGE-HEARTED, BROAD-MINDED Religion which renders full freedom to its followers to repose and follow any sub- faith on any God of his/her choice ...

..alongside to believe the specific God or Godess as the Supreme Paramathma.

Accordingly the Saivites of Pandya, Chera Kingdoms are amicably adopting their devotional path peacefully.

..but NOT THE CHOZHA-Empire Saivites... who are in the unending habit of UNNECESSARILY DIVERTING the issue...

..towards lower direction of Cheap approach.

Rather I reiterate... that anybody can proudly claim "My Mother is Great"

But he should Not say..."Your Mother is NOT GREAT....LOWER THAN MY MOTHER"

Then the other man has to reply " Look. You say Your Mother is Great. Well. I am glad. Every person should feel so.

..But don't compare with my Mother.. because You do not Know my Mother... Nor I know Yours....

..and it is NOT A WORTHY SUBJECT for our friendly discussion...

...being an UNNECESSARY LINE OF THINKING... UNHEALTHY TREND OF APPROACH for a Super-birth Mankind"

So to say... the Chozha Saivites used to force their FANATIC Words into the mouths of Vaishnavites.

...unnecessarily dragging them towards UNSOUGHT controversy provocating mutual animosity ...

Yes. You know the true History of Great Vaishnava Scholars, Peria-Nambi and Koorathaazhwar.... the Guru and Sishyas of Ramanujacharya...

...who were UNJUSTLY punished CALLOUSLY. They THE INNOCENT CULPRITS were made blind.

..by Kulothunga Chozha Emperor... so called Protector of his Subjects.

What SERIOUS CRIME those Vedic Scholars committed.?

They were forced to accept the Saivite version... that Lord Siva is the Paramathma, the Supreme Soul.

...which they refused to accept ... since .it is CONTRARY TO VEDIC TRUTH... as well as their personal Faith as Vaishnavites.
..
...Indeed the Vedas do authorise the SAIVITE ONLY TO BELIEVE Siva as Paramathma.

...although contrary to Vedic Truth undoubtedly asserting Paramathma Narayana only only and only.

We have to also remember that according to Vedas,...

...Parallelly the Sakthas, Kaumaras, Sauras, Ganapathyas, Vaishnavites and Swaabhaavikas too do possess their individual rights of varied sorts...

...to adopt and believe their respective Gods or Godess, Kali, Subrahmanya, Ganesa, Sun, Vishnu or any Object. of ones own will..

...or the shapeless Inanimate abstract form...

... as the Supreme God / Godess over Other Gods
.
Why targeting on Vishnawites.?

We can find from true History that Vaishnavites were unnecessarily forced and dragged into repeated controversies, antagonism, and undue Social divisions breeding mutual hatred...

..only by the Fanatic Saivite Politicians.!... of erstwhile Chozha Empire.

Religion is the highest Subject of Soul-Emancipation... for Mankind, the Super-birth on Earth.
.

[pradheep]

Dear Ak

Realized people might have been around, but such ideas probably crystallized into accepted religion through the Upanishads only.
what the link you posted says is akin to the situation, where 100 years from now, some one will look at the book "Pizza Cooking book for dummies, edition 2010" and interpret that the idea about Pizza crystalized into acceptable food in 2010, only through this book only.

A zillion Upanishads can never explain "Brahman", Brahman is unexplainable. Paradoxically, Upanishads are dummies for spiritual travellers.

[PARAMASHIVAN]

I am getting seriously irritated about images now, I can also copy and paste from google,,,,

:banghead:

[PARAMASHIVAN]

Dear Pradeep, AK

Have you heard of Sadgury Jaggi vasudev?

[pradheep]

..only by the Fanatic Saivite Politicians.!... of erstwhile Chozha Empire.
Dear Sudhama
You beautifully pointed that it is politics the cause of suffering.

Let us remember the historical pain to caution the present and future generation not to repeat it.

Let us forget the historical pain caused by them, so that we can guide the present and future generation in the right path.

The underlying message is to transcend the names and forms (pure political taste of indivudal/s) to the highest realization.

Tomorrow is Shiva Rathri. This night is not for Saivates only, but for all human beings on this planet. Night represent sleep (ignorance) and awaken means light or knowledge. All the time from birth, we are sleeping in the ignorance without awaken to the real Being (Brahman). Symbolically and ritualitically, Siva rathri is a witnessing observance , of our True Being.

[pradheep]

I am going to request mods to lock it..
What is that cause you to swell your head?.


Jaggi
Heard about him and saw some of the youtube links you posted. Thanks , he is a great teacher.

[PARAMASHIVAN]

Yes, Sudhama sir is right, Choza were reasons for a division in the religion..

Pradeep

Is Shivaratri tomorrow??? I was told it is march 13th... some one pls verify it

thanks

[anbu_kathir]

Dear Ak

what the link you posted says is akin to the situation, where 100 years from now, some one will look at the book "Pizza Cooking book for dummies, edition 2010" and interpret that the idea about Pizza crystalized into acceptable food in 2010, only through this book only.



I tend to believe that ideas about God generally spread through ancient cultures through their most prominent art forms, .. sculptures, texts and stories. The art forms which take our world today by storm are probably blogs and media, through which things spread quite fast. If someone discovers something new today, these are where those discoveries are reported, and I tend to think of art and literature to be equivalent agencies in the ancient times that we are talking about.

One can't be sure about what is not available in anthropological and archaeological evidence, one can only speculate. The Upanishads just remain the first evidence of the idea of a Impersonal Creator sweeping a culture. Before their time (around 5th century BC), I doubt if there was evidence for such ideas in a culture.



A zillion Upanishads can never explain "Brahman", Brahman is unexplainable. Paradoxically, Upanishads are dummies for spiritual travellers.


Yea.. but saying Upanishads are dummies for spiritual travellers is a bit too harsh I feel. They are the epitome of a culture attaining the pinnacle of spiritual realization. I get the sense in which you meant it though, that any finger pointing to the moon can't be the moon. However the finger can point to the moon, and the Upanishads did it wonderfully so well like no other book has done before.

Love and Light.

[anbu_kathir]

Dear Pradeep, AK

Have you heard of Sadgury Jaggi vasudev?

Heard of him, sure. Whenever I listened to him talk, I thought he was cool and made sense in today's world. Have read one or two articles of his "athanaikkum aasaippadu" in one tamil magazine (Vikatan?).. liked his clarity and viewpoints.

Level-headed Guru for this age, I think :).

Love and Light.

[PARAMASHIVAN]

Dear Pradeep, AK

Have you heard of Sadgury Jaggi vasudev?

Heard of him, sure. Whenever I listened to him talk, I thought he was cool and made sense in today's world. Have read one or two articles of his "athanaikkum aasaippadu" in one tamil magazine (Vikatan?).. liked his clarity and viewpoints.

Level-headed Guru for this age, I think :).

Love and Light.

He is an excellent teacher, he makes perfect sense of everything, great guru.. Pls visit my thread about him in this section

thanks
Raghu

[PARAMASHIVAN]

[tscii:d7eb6badb5]Thrikkuratti Mahadevar Temple [4] is one among 108 sivalayas built by Lord Parasurama, situated in Mannar, also known as The Bell Metal Town, a major business town mid way between Mavelikara and Tiruvalla, in Alappuzha District of Kerala state, India, on State highway 6 (kayamkulam – Thiruvalla Road). It is believed that the mammoth thrikkuratti mahadeva temple compound wall was built by Bhootangal of Lord Paramasiva in one night


Now we have Parasurama, avatar of vishnu who in turn is an avatar of Naryana builds a temple to pray for Maheswara


Nardar : Narayana Narayana :lol2:
[/tscii:d7eb6badb5]

[pradheep]

The Upanishads just remain the first evidence of the idea of a Impersonal Creator sweeping a culture.
Vedas were the first evidence. Upanishads came later. People who read Vedas and interpret it, get misleaded with the prose of Vedas. They think, it is worshipping a "Personal creator". Infact it isnt. The words in Sanskrit are impregnanted with meanings like a Holographic form. It will mean what one looks for. Thats the beauty of it. This is how the three versions of Advaita , Vishit and Dwaita, came, based on the interpretation the Vedas.

[PARAMASHIVAN]

I heard that "Specific" temples for "Lord Ganesh" were only built in Southern India, in the last 600 - 700 odd years? Is this True ?

[anbu_kathir]

I heard that "Specific" temples for "Lord Ganesh" were only built in Southern India, in the last 600 - 700 odd years? Is this True ?

I suppose you mean dedicated shrines for Vinayakar.

Might seem like it is indeed the case for most, although many of the most famous ones seem to be older.

First some obvious candidates -



The Agama texts found on stones in the temple help date the temple between the years of 1091 and 1238. A unique Tamil image of Pillaiyar found in the temple helps to verify this dating. The presiding deity of the temple is Karpaka Vinayakar or Desi Vinayaka Pillaiyar.




Rockfort or Ucchi Pillayar koil, is a combination of two famous 7th century Hindu temples, one dedicated to Lord Ganesh and the other dedicated to Lord Shiva, located a top of a huge rock in Trichy, India.

Then, after a little bit of searching -


"The legendary Adi Sankara is learnt to have sung the Ganesa Pancharathna on the presiding deity of this village, prior to his song Subramania Bhujangam on Lord Subramania of Thiruchendur. It my be noted that Pancharathnam is being recited every day in Thiruchendur prior to Bhujangam recital. Andan Kavirayan is known to have cursed the village and deitys in his songs and that is said to be the reason for the degradation of the village. All these songs are given separately."

Given that Shankara lived at least 1200 years ago, this is pretty old.

More here - http://theemerald.wordpress.com/2009/08/04/list-of-noted-ganesha-temples-in-tamilnadu/

Love and Light.

[PARAMASHIVAN]

Kathir

I know Lord Vinayakar was mentioned in many scriptues from the south, I was told by one Yogic Expert that Temples "Specifically" for Lord Ganesha were built "Mainly" within the last 600 years. And even Chola Emperor Mainly built temples for "Lord Shiva" .

[anbu_kathir]

Kathir

I know Lord Vinayakar was mentioned in many scriptues from the south, I was told by one Yogic Expert that Temples "Specifically" for Lord Ganesha were built "Mainly" within the last 600 years. And even Chola Emperor Mainly built temples for "Lord Shiva" .

As I said, I think this is true, but I actually found and mentioned temples dedicated to vinayagar that are quite old.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpaka_Vinayakar_Temple

http://www.aarumugamangalam.com/main/temples.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockfort_Ucchi_Pillayar_Temple

http://theemerald.wordpress.com/2009...-in-tamilnadu/

Paarunga..

Love and Light.

[PARAMASHIVAN]

Thanks kathir :) Will post in detail later :)

[pradheep]

Forgot the most important temple. I have visited this temple last february.

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/temples/3412-vathapi-ganapathym-bajeham.html

[PARAMASHIVAN]

Forgot the most important temple. I have visited this temple last february.

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/temples/3412-vathapi-ganapathym-bajeham.html

Pradheep :shock:

Welcome back :) romba naala kaanOm :roll:

[PARAMASHIVAN]

What is the "Significance" of thEr Thiruvizha ? I mean the 30 odd days of thuruvizha done once every year in temples.

[pradheep]

Thanks
we were busy with a new program we have started for children, adults and corporates in India (CCC, CAC and CCC2). We discuss the meanings of rituals, temples and spirituality. Well received is the 63 nayanmars discussion. If you have friends or family who can attend every saturday in many places in tamil nadu, please suggest. here is the link

http://uni5.co/index.php/en/ccc

[pradheep]

"Significance" of thEr Thiruvizha

In CCC we explain everything in five levels.
I will share some of the same methodology in 3 levels here.
Level 1:
Once a year, the Kings of India, come out of their Royal Court and go through the streets of the citizens in a chariot. This act bridged the gap between the king and the citizens. It made the citizens happy that the Royal himself comes down to where they lived. It also gave an opportunity for the sick, senior citizens, women and children to see the king openly without the court rules and regulations.
For the king, it was an open inspection of the kingdom (secretly he used spies or he himself goes in disguise in other times of the year).

Level-2
This is the same Model for ThEr Thiruvizha, where the Lord is the King of the Kings and all of us are his subjects. This gave an strong intimacy for the devotees to see the Lord without any rules and regulations of the temple.

Level-3
Our Consciousness is the Lord and all the thoughts are subjects in the kingdom of mind. Once often we should have an inspection of the thoughts in the light of Consciousness for our inner progress or growth.

Summary: In Sanathana Dharma all rituals are done in five levels of physical, Emotional, intellectual, Awareness and Consciousness.

[PARAMASHIVAN]

Thanks for the Explanation Pradheep

I Find Level - 3 the "Most" rational reason!

[pradheep]

People at each level identify that is rational for them.

[PARAMASHIVAN]

People at each level identify that is rational for them.

Agree ! There is a "Universal Rationalism" , it is all based on one's "Limited" knowledge! :)

[pradheep]

Universal Rationalism! Thats it. You nailed it. This aspect, people confuses as thoughts, inner voice, scientific etc. But this is beyond all that, without any bias. Everyone is right in their level, but the Universal is Universal for all.

[PARAMASHIVAN]

Pradheep

Is there any "Significance" as to we go around the "Deities" in an "anti clockwise" manner rather than clockwise?

[pradheep]

I dont know which ritual you are asking about. Is it about the half clock wise and half anti clock wise going around in Kerala shiva temple or about the small anti clock we make in Tamil Nadu Temples after we clap in chandikeswarar shrine? Or any other ritual.

[PARAMASHIVAN]

I dont know which ritual you are asking about. Is it about the half clock wise and half anti clock wise going around in Kerala shiva temple or about the small anti clock we make in Tamil Nadu Temples after we clap in chandikeswarar shrine? Or any other ritual. This is the one I am talking about :)

[pradheep]

The whole temple is in the way of a human body. The feet is the gopuram. The genitial organs are the flag post (this is where we prostrate down to get the maximum energy). The Navel is the bali-kallu (where they offer rice). the chest is the ardha mandapam. the eyes are the dwara palakar. The head is the garbha graham. the pradakshanam is the flow of energy in clock wise. The ears are the chadikeswarar. so we clap to initiate that listening response in us. Only here we make small anti clock turn to continue the energy flow again in the clockwise pradhakshina.

[PARAMASHIVAN]

Thanks Pradheep,

I have heard that the temple were built to illustrate the human body, but as Far as I know , the human head is regarded as the "Gopurum" ?

What i meant about this Anti clockwise rotation is this :

In SL Tamil temples and UK based temples (run by SL Tamil Authorities). We have the "adhi moolam deity" in the centre. Be it Lord Shiva, Ganesh, murugan, ambal...who ever, what the Devotees do is Stand in front of the Adhi Moolam and start to walk around it in an "anti clockwise" manner. This was my question :) I am not sure if this custom is followed by Hindus in TN

[pradheep]

In Vastu Shastra of Temple, Feet is Gopuram and not head. The "STEP (Padi)" of the gopuram is usually touched with hands and then to the head before we enter a temple. It is a practice to avoid stepping on this step. This is because one of our dissipating Energy focal point is the feet and so is the Gopuram's step. This is why elders feet is not touched but the field around the feet is touched.

I have not encountered the the anti clock wise rotation you mentioned.

[PARAMASHIVAN]

In Vastu Shastra of Temple, Feet is Gopuram and not head. The "STEP (Padi)" of the gopuram is usually touched with hands and then to the head before we enter a temple. It is a practice to avoid stepping on this step. This is because one of our dissipating Energy focal point is the feet and so is the Gopuram's step. This is why elders feet is not touched but the field around the feet is touched.

I have not encountered the the anti clock wise rotation you mentioned.

What is that?

[pradheep]

I did not understand your question. I meant that i have not seen an anti clock wise rotation as you mentioned.

[PARAMASHIVAN]

I did not understand your question. I meant that i have not seen an anti clock wise rotation as you mentioned.

Sorry Pradheep,

I was asking you about what " Vastu Shastra " is?

[pradheep]

Vastu Shastra is the science of architecture. In Vedic science, arts, music, medical, architecture were all structured to represent one Universal Truth. The temple building was designed to represent the Cosmic body through the Human body. All the organs of the human body is represented in the Temple. Like the efficient way of using human organs, there is an efficient way (guideline) to visit a temple.

[PARAMASHIVAN]

The genitial organs are the flag post (this is where we prostrate down to get the maximum energy). . Similar to the symbolisation of Shivalinga and Yoni ? This makes perfect sense regarding "Centre of Creation" for Mammals (Animals, humans, reptiles, ..etc ), but then how is it applied in plants ?

[PARAMASHIVAN]

Lingam and Yoni is represented as a Shiva lingam, which in turn represents the Creation energy of Male and Female, this makes perfect sense of Mammal Creation and the Creator. This is why I admire Hindu Philosophy, so much "scientific" reasons behind rituals and ideologies! But sadly over the decades it all got misinterpreted and misunderstood due to the work of "Maha Kala”, and Many Hindus still live in Ignorance and Fairy Tales likes beliefs!

[PARAMASHIVAN]

Pradheeep

By doing yoga and Meditation can you actually activate the Pineal Gland? To illustrate the function of Pineal Gland, we do this by showing the "Third eye" of Lord Shiva!
I hear that applying Vibuthi it invokes the functionality of the Gland. I also heard that by focusing your meditation point on your Pineal Gland, you are able be in "Ecstasy" state, but diverting all your attention /energy to the Gland is extremely difficult!

Your views on this pls!

[anbu_kathir]

Pradheeep

By doing yoga and Meditation can you actually activate the Pineal Gland? To illustrate the function of Pineal Gland, we do this by showing the "Third eye" of Lord Shiva!
I hear that applying Vibuthi it invokes the functionality of the Gland. I also heard that by focusing your meditation point on your Pineal Gland, you are able be in "Ecstasy" state, but diverting all your attention /energy to the Gland is extremely difficult!

Your views on this pls!

I obviously am interjecting on this, but I feel impelled to do so.

IMHO real spirituality has nothing to do with all these mystic experiences. Why bother to have them? How are they different from what is experienced by those who use drugs? They last for a while, and then they are gone and one is back into facing the world without an iota of real understanding.

The idea should be to look for something which stays, not that which comes and goes.

Greetings,
Prasad.

[PARAMASHIVAN]

I obviously am interjecting on this, but I feel impelled to do so.

IMHO real spirituality has nothing to do with all these mystic experiences. Why bother to have them? How are they different from what is experienced by those who use drugs? They last for a while, and then they are gone and one is back into facing the world without an iota of real understanding.

The idea should be to look for something which stays, not that which comes and goes.

Greetings,
Prasad.

Prasad

There is nothing mystical about what I mentioned regarding Pineal Gland, that is the main concentration point of yoga. Have you noticed the pictures Jesus being crucified on a cross, if you notice his eyes, they will be looking at the third eye (pineal gland), and you would find the so called Babaji (who is supposed to be meditating in the Himalayas) in the same position!

This was confirmed by Sadguru Jaggi vasudev :)

[SoftSword]

Why bother to have them? How are they different from what is experienced by those who use drugs? They last for a while, and then they are gone and one is back into facing the world without an iota of real understanding.


a sensible post in such threads i found in recent times.

[PARAMASHIVAN]

The idea should be to look for something which stays, not that which comes and goes.


Yes, once you have realised who you are, then nothing comes and goes,no external influences, emotions will effect you in any way, this is called the "nirvana" stage. :)

[anbu_kathir]

Prasad

There is nothing mystical about what I mentioned regarding Pineal Gland, that is the main concentration point of yoga. Have you noticed the pictures Jesus being crucified on a cross, if you notice his eyes, they will be looking at the third eye (pineal gland), and you would find the so called Babaji (who is supposed to be meditating in the Himalayas) in the same position!

This was confirmed by Sadguru Jaggi vasudev :)

Paramashivan,

Excuse me if I am being harsh, but all this is merely beating around the bush. Just because Jesus is pictured that way, or Babaji is pictured that way, or Jaggi Vasudev experiences it that way doesn't necessarily mean that is the way all Yogis operate, i.e., Examples (or experiences) are not proofs of anything. If that was the case, then the sun would really "rise" in the east and set in the west. That is precisely why we learn to NOT trust experience.

In real spirituality, all experiences are clubbed together as the equivalent of passing-clouds. Because they come and go, they can have no value in the absolute sense. Of course, they might have value in the relative sense, which is what makes us judge anyone at all, but this cannot be carried over for judging the spiritual quotient of any person.

Regards,
Prasad

[PARAMASHIVAN]

Paramashivan,

Excuse me if I am being harsh, but all this is merely beating around the bush. Just because Jesus is pictured that way, or Babaji is pictured that way, or Jaggi Vasudev experiences it that way doesn't necessarily mean that is the way all Yogis operate, i.e., Examples (or experiences) are not proofs of anything. If that was the case, then the sun would really "rise" in the east and set in the west. That is precisely why we learn to NOT trust experience.

In real spirituality, all experiences are clubbed together as the equivalent of passing-clouds. Because they come and go, they can have no value in the absolute sense. Of course, they might have value in the relative sense, which is what makes us judge anyone at all, but this cannot be carried over for judging the spiritual quotient of any person.

Regards,
Prasad

May be I am not explaining it clearly!, yes "experiences" are subjectives to each individuals, which may not have anything to do with the reality of the "supreme". I was just pointing out the reasons behind meditation and the effect it has on one's mind and body :)

[anbu_kathir]

May be I am not explaining it clearly!, yes "experiences" are subjectives to each individuals, which may not have anything to do with the reality of the "supreme". I was just pointing out the reasons behind meditation and the effect it has on one's mind and body :)

:) Yes indeed there are possibly several effects to the Yogic practises. But what should be one's motive in learning about them? How are they different from learning about how to use drugs? Are they different at all?

Edit: If they are not of any use in real spirituality, why waste time? :D

Regards,
Prasad.

[NOV]

In real spirituality, all experiences are clubbed together as the equivalent of passing-clouds. Because they come and go, they can have no value in the absolute sense. Of course, they might have value in the relative sense, which is what makes us judge anyone at all, but this cannot be carried over for judging the spiritual quotient of any person. :bow: :bow: :bow:
Please keep on writing.

[anbu_kathir]

:bow: :bow: :bow:
Please keep on writing.

Nandri NOV :D. Seriously though, I must direct all praise/gratitude to the teachers in the traditional systems who have laid down the guidelines to real spirituality in a crystal clear way. It is to them I owe even an iota of my understanding (Edit: the proportion of whatever is correct understanding alone, of course!) . Of course, the offshoots and stand-alone Gurus have helped, but the real boost came/comes from the traditional lineage and it is entirely due to their grace alone.

Very sincerely,
Prasad.

[NOV]

I feel that more than the guru, the student must be ready. And passing of teachings from one generation to next, isnt that a duty?

Can you tell me how we can keep emotions in check.... that could be the first step towards spirituality attainment?

[anbu_kathir]

I feel that more than the guru, the student must be ready. And passing of teachings from one generation to next, isnt that a duty?

Can you tell me how we can keep emotions in check.... that could be the first step towards spirituality attainment?

Of course, the student has to be ready, but it is purely the Guru's (the one who is already "free") grace that the student can receive the teaching. This because such a Guru has no obligation to teach, because he/she is not bound by the world and does not care about any of the benefits he accrues from doing anything at all. So no, it is not the "duty" of the Guru to teach for duties are for those who are still bound/attracted by what the world has to offer. So the word that is generally used in this is situation is "compassion", as the Guru teaches for no benefit (or to avoid no curse .. not even as a gratitude towards the lineage itself).

The short answer to your question is that - unselfish action along with an humble attitude will automatically generate the ability to regulate emotions.

However, towards a proper answer to your question, it is necessary to have some understanding of the Indian philosophical systems ( and I also do not know what your idea of "spiritual attainment" is, so anything more that I mention directly will result in more confusion). So, here goes. I have to use the technical terms from Sanskrit here, as they is imperative to have any meaningful discussion in this topic.

The Indian systems traditionally starts by recognising the individual (called Jeeva/Jiva - and is not restricted to a single birth) and his goals (called Purushaartha-s in the Indian systems) in life. There are 4 such Purushaarthas (SS and I mentioned the connections to the Tamil words and ThirukkuraL here http://www.mayyam.com/talk/showthread.php?6664-The-Universal-Truth-of-quot-God-Supreme-quot&p=689330#post689330) :
1. Artha (food/clothing/shelter) = PoruL from the ThirukkuraL
2. Kaama (any additional comfort) = Inbam
3. Dharma (proper -actually the only true- means of acquiring above) = Aram = One could say in simple terms as a certain degree of Unselfishness.
4. Moksha (liberation - "from what?" is an obvious question here, answered briefly next) - this is known as the Parama Purushaartha or ultimate goal. = Veedu

All of these four are in reality only ramifications of the Individual's need to be happy, and any of the results that motivate our actions can be classified into one of these.

Now coming to the question of the not so self-explanatory "Moksha" in the list. If one enquires into the nature of happiness, it can be seen clearly that the objects of the world (Artha/Kaama therefore) in themselves do not possess happiness, and moreover whatever pleasure one derives out of the objects is only temporary. Moreover, the individual can also recognise that whenever he depends/expects something beneficial to happen to him - and it doesn't happen, he is disturbed and suffers. This expectation/dependency is essentially the only reason for suffering (note here that we exclude physical pain - even with physical pain one need not suffer mentally). Therefore, all this analysis begs at the question - can there be permanent happiness/contentment, which is undisturbed by the occurrences of the world, at all? If the answer is yes, the individual definitely would want to have it. Now, the Indian system says that there is indeed such a thing, and this is termed generically as Moksha (thereby meaning Liberation from suffering AKA from the dependency on the objects of the world for happiness).

From now on, I will subscribe to a particular philosophy called Advaita Vedantha AKA Non-Dualism (there are several other Indian philosophical systems, including Atheistic ones, I don't know much about them more than their names). Advaita is strangely both atheistic and theistic, but this again is a deviation from our goal here.

The path of the individual for achieving these goals is divided in Advaita into two subpaths, each of which each Jiva must necessarily go through. The first one, called Karma Yoga (EDIT: Karma Yoga cum Upaasana Yoga) involves the preparation of the individual to enter into the second subpath, caleed Jnana Yoga, which alone confers Moksha on the individual. Note that in both of these two subpaths, "humility" is a prime requisite. The quality of humility is signified in Advaita by Bhakthi - devotion/surrender to a higher order/power/personal god/impersonal god/life (as per one's mentality this entity can be changed).

Karma Yoga - is the path of action according to Dharma. The individual performs the different duties prescribed in the Veda for the time/space he occupies and the mental/physical capacities that he possesses. It is reasonable indeed to expect that this stage could be variable for different people, and the only real judge of whether one is a practising Karma Yogi is a self-assessment of whether one is being Dharmic (unselfish-broadly) and has Bhakthi (a humble attitude towards life).

EDIT: Upaasana Yoga is an integral part of the first subpath which can be combined with Karma Yoga to yield more benefit and clarity of mind to enter the second subpath. All of the mental practices, including that of the various forms of meditations, come under Upaasana Yoga. If I am not wrong, this is also called Raaja Yoga.

EDIT: The performance of Karma/Upaasana reaps two kinds of benefits depending upon the mindset of the performer of Karma/Upaasana. If that person performs these activities for selfish reasons, then they give the first two purushaarthas (Kaama/Artha) in heaps and bounds, but however much one may receive here, one would not have progressed anywhere in the realm of real spirituality and permanent happiness.

EDIT: If on the other hand the performer does perform Karma/Upaasana with the attitude of surrendering all the benefits of his actions to a higher perform, wanting nothing for himself, then such a person receives the necessary qualifications to enter into the second subpath, and therefore into real spirituality.

Therefore, a practising Karma/Upaasana Yogi, as it turns out, achieves the necessary qualifications to go into the subpath of Jnaana Yoga, which is the only way towards Moksha . These qualifications are four-fold and can be read here - http://swamij.com/sadhana-chatushtaya-shatsampat.htm. One of these qualifications is Sense-control, and thereby your question is answered.

Jnaana Yoga is the beginning of real spirituality, and is to be undertaken strictly under the guidance of a Guru who is already well versed in the scripture and if possible himself "achieved" Moksha. An explanation of Jnaana Yoga is trickier and looks at more fundamentals - I tried to bring out some facets in the old thread - http://www.mayyam.com/talk/showthread.php?6664-The-Universal-Truth-of-quot-God-Supreme-quot&p=689330#post689330 - but it is probably much beyond the scope of this post as of now.

Sincerely,
Prasad.

[anbu_kathir]

Did I chase everyone away :P?

[NOV]

Deep thoughts Prasad -ji.
Let me mull over "unselfish action along with an humble attitude will automatically generate the ability to regulate emotions."
This itself is difficult enough for the materialistic among us.

[pradheep]

but then how is it applied in plants ?
Plants structures also has some similarity (long stamens carrying male pollen and sac like ovary of females) similar to higher animals.

[pradheep]

By doing yoga and Meditation can you actually activate the Pineal Gland?
Astrology talks about sun, moon and stars. But in reality, astrological sun and moon are not these physical sun and moon. Yet the physical sun and moon's properties do reflect qualities of astrological sun and moon. This is similar to Pancha Bhoota's air water, fire etc. The physical is not the real the vedas talk about, at the same time the physical do reflect the qualities. This applies to the pineal gland. Yoga, mediation activates not the physical pineal gland and at the same time, the physical pineal gland reflects those qualities.

Again this applies to chakras and the experiences too. For every "relative" level, the experiences are so valuable. However at the absolute level, they dont matter. For a child, the school experiences are so exciting to be shared. But for a grownup they may not be anything to be considered. A matured grownup, accepts the child's experiences and at the same motivates to go beyond the experiences to "knowledge".

[PARAMASHIVAN]

but then how is it applied in plants ?
Plants structures also has some similarity (long stamens carrying male pollen and sac like ovary of females) similar to higher animals.
Yes , that is true, this thought slipped my mind :)

[PARAMASHIVAN]

Pradheep

What is the "significance of having a nandi" in front of the Adhi moolum? I have also read some where that "initially" the Nandi was facing the lord (before the Aryan invasion) and the Aryan built temples made the nandi to face the opposite side (that is not facing the adhi moolum). The apparent reason for the Nadi to be facing the Lord is to display "Ashwini Mutra/ Chakra”. If Try to Explain this, it may be a bit rude in hub. But I was told that the reason for Nandi to facing the lord is to display the "Ashwini mutra". Is this true? But Ashwini is a Sanskrit word for horse right?

[PARAMASHIVAN]

Way to keep away from "Emotions" is to keep your inner energy (Soul) away from the physical body! All emotions and pain are phyiscal, even the mind is physical.

[pradheep]

Pradheep

What is the "significance of having a nandi" in front of the Adhi moolum?

Nandi
Five ways to understand as per Sakthi foundation uni5 principles.
Body level : Nandi represents an individual (identified to body) who looks for a purpose in life, a goal, Eternal happiness (Shiva). This is a message , temple is giving that everyone should should have such a goal in life.
Mind Level: Nandi represents and individual (mind) who understand that peace of mind comes only when keeping the mind thinking of Shiva the Consciousness. Nandi dances as a gana with joy in kailasa.
Intelligence level: Nandi represents Dharma (intelligence) our focus towards righteous actions.
Awareness Level: Nandi represent the Awareness we have on Consciousness.
Consciousness Here Nandi identifies to Shiva, the Consciousness.

(more details click here (http://veda.sakthifoundation.org/trinitygods-3.htm))

[PARAMASHIVAN]

Many thanks for your explanation pradheep, I will reply to your post when I have some time :)

[PARAMASHIVAN]

Did any one here know that Jesus along with Alexandar the great went to India and learnt Meditation and self realisation from "Agasthiyar" munnivar ?

[anbu_kathir]

Did any one here know that Jesus along with Alexandar the great went to India and learnt Meditation and self realisation from "Agasthiyar" munnivar ?

Dear Paramashivan,

I hope you don't mean that this is your assertion as truth!

My standard response to similar questions at several occasions is now : "How does it matter?". Why are we so worried about Jesus or Krishna or Muhammed? With all due respect to them, they were perhaps Jnaanis. How does a trivial piece of information such as this about their lives (which is completely unprovable anyway) remove our ignorance or change our lives even a little bit?

Please excuse if I sounded arrogant.

Love and Light.

[PARAMASHIVAN]

Dear Paramashivan,

I hope you don't mean that this is your assertion as truth!



Certainly not! I just mention to those who did not know this. I am not seeking the Creator outside by any means, because I know that will be useless, as any outside perception is based upon the info you have gathered from your five senses (which are meant for survival) together with imagination alias hallucination, known as Mind :)

I have "realised" that I am part of the Energy of the creation and We can not come to any Logical conclusion about this source of energy with our Limited Knowledge :)



Please excuse if I sounded arrogant.

Love and Light.

Certainly not :)

[PARAMASHIVAN]

Dear Kathir

Wolves dont scare me, it is the sheeps that scares the hell out me, hope you know what I meant :lol:

[anbu_kathir]

Certainly not! I just mention to those who did not know this. I am not seeking the Creator outside by any means, because I know that will be useless, as any outside perception is based upon the info you have gathered from your five senses (which are meant for survival) together with imagination alias hallucination, known as Mind

I have "realised" that I am part of the Energy of the creation and We can not come to any Logical conclusion about this source of energy with our Limited Knowledge


Absolutely :). But I still don't get what "those who did not know this" means. It could also be that a personality called Jesus did not exist. If I were to claim that and enquire about whether people "know" this, what would it mean?



Wolves dont scare me, it is the sheeps that scares the hell out me, hope you know what I meant :lol:
[/QUOTE]

Idhu purila ..

Love and Light.

[Mahavir]

Most of the Hindus today are non-vedic. The Vedic religion exists prominently in Brahmins.

When we examine the traditions, rituals and food habits of Hindus, we find that Hinduism is nothing but an amalgamation of Jainism, Buddhism and Vedic religion.

As we know, a large number of Hindus are vegetarians. Another thing we know that Vedics were meat eaters and beef eaters in ancient time. So the vegetarianism in Hinduism came there from Jainism.

Animal sacrifice was one of the most important rituals in Vedic religion. Vedics stopped this ritual because of strong opposition by Jains and Buddhist. Compassion for animals in Hinduism came from Jainism and Buddhism, and sacrificing animals came from Vedic religion.

Vedics were not idol worshipers. Idol worshiping in Hinduism came from Jainism.

The saffron color is considered as holy in Hinduism. But it came there from Buddhism. On the other hand, importance of white color in Hinduism came from Jainism.

The importance of 4 rainy months (Chaturmas) in Hinduism came from Jainism and Buddhism. The importance of fasting came from Jainism.

Thus, we can see many Jain and Buddhist elements in present day Hinduism, followed by some Vedic elements.

-Mahavir Sanglikar
http://jainismus.hubpages.com/hub/The-Origin-of-Hinduism

[PARAMASHIVAN]

Kathir

I will reply to your post shortly :)

Mahavir

Pls enlighten us with your intellect regarding this "ism" (Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism).
Pls further enlighten us from where this Jain"ism" originated from? Because we are all insane here you see :)


Many thanks

[PARAMASHIVAN]

Oh and Mahavir, pls dont google and post articles from websites, I want your "highly" intellect thoughts on this please.

[PARAMASHIVAN]

It could also be that a personality called Jesus did not exist.


Exactly my point, these were told to us like Fairy Tales, whether it is Mahabhartha, Ramayana, 10 comandments, Quran, Geeta, Bible..etc etc. And we tend believe anything that is told to us! The closet thing to GOD alias Creator is nothing else but you!

[anisha_astrologer]

according to me hinduism is a combination of culture and religion. I am not sure about the science part. however if we consider the ancient scriptures which are associated with hinduism then science also has a part to play. hinduism is not merely a religion it is a culture, it is a social code for millions who live in India or associate themselves with hinduism.

[PARAMASHIVAN]

Mahavir

I am still awaiting for your "intellect" thoughts on this "ism" :lol2:

[PARAMASHIVAN]

Mahavir

Pls comeback :lol2:

[lydayaxobia616]

Mahavir

I am still awaiting for your "intellect" thoughts on this "ism" :lol2:

In my opinion,
Wherever there is a inter-mediator "Priest/Monk" to establish the communication with "God Supreme" then it should be considered as "ism"
Any other practices without "Priest/Monk" (direct communication like Ancestor deity/Kula Deivam/Kaval Deivam etc) should be considered as a "Culture"

[pradheep]

Dear Samraj
A mediator if considered does the role of a teacher , a guru who helps to self-discover the God supreme, is spirituality and not an ism.

[PARAMASHIVAN]

In my opinion,
Wherever there is a inter-mediator "Priest/Monk" to establish the communication with "God Supreme" then it should be considered as "ism"
Any other practices without "Priest/Monk" (direct communication like Ancestor deity/Kula Deivam/Kaval Deivam etc) should be considered as a "Culture"

Dear Samraj

That was a sarcastic question :) He did not seem to know Hinduism (sandhana Dharma) was the eldest culture prior to Jainism

[PARAMASHIVAN]

Dear Samraj
A mediator if considered does the role of a teacher , a guru who helps to self-discover the God supreme, is spirituality and not an ism.

Yes Excatly!