IR Compositions: Lyrics and Situation

[Sureshs65]

In the IR as a singer thread, there has been some interesting debate on Raja's songs suiting situations and how they can / cannot be transposed to other situations. Lets continue the discussion here

[Sureshs65]

I will start with a couple of examples on how Raja seems to modify things based on situation and lyrics. I am talking about minute changes here and not like how he composes for a situation like sad situation, fun situation etc. Maybe my examples will clarify what I am trying to state.

1. 'Sendhazham Poovil' - There is one charanam wherein the words go, 'valaindhu nelindu sellum padhai' (the road that twists and turns). Now Raja plays a brief shenoy bit here which twists and turns!! We know that Raja generally works out all the music in his mind as soon as the tune comes up but here is a clear case where he must have added this bit after hearing the lyrics of Kannadasan. Similarly you can hear a short shenoy bit in an Uliyin Osai song, 'Kallai irundhen' when the lyricist writes about an impending wedding.

2. An example of how Raja has incorporated some minute details based on the situation. This is from the Kannada film called 'Bhoomi Geethe'. Here in the interlude suddenly the metal part of the drums are hit rapidly. Only when you see the movie you understand why it was done. One lady is trying to cross a stream walking over a branch and is about to fall. The music fits in so very well into the situation. Credit to the director as well. I am sure the music in the interlude was composed by Raja after questioning the director for minute details. Else there would have been no need for that particular small piece in that interlude. Couldn't get the link on youtube :(

Here is one on youtube. Here, in the prelude, there is some clash of cymbals type of music. What Plum in another post had called the 'crashing of a tambalam'. Similar music here. When you see the video you realize that it is indeed a tambalam being banged :) Again, Raja must have got minute details from Sathyan in order to provide that prelude the way he did.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51uV1R_EzRI

I hope you get what I am trying to get at. So if you know of situations where you think Raja had introduced some music based on some lyrics or based on some situation, do share it here.

[Sureshs65]

The Bhoomigeethe song I was referring to was 'Nodirava Nodirava'. You can download it from rajasaranam's MediaFire folder.

[app_engine]

Another song whose "portions" will be difficult to port - chinnanjiru vayadhil unnaippOl of meeNdum gOkila - I don't think the 2nd interlude can be ported as such to another movie :-)

OTOH, yEh zindagi got effortlessly ported to en vAzhvilE (Kamal to Rajini, l,s & barrell)

[P_R]

OTOH, yEh zindagi got effortlessly ported to en vAzhvilE (Kamal to Rajini, l,s & barrell)
Hmm

Why was poongaatru pudhidhAnAdhu tune not used in Sadma ?

[AravindMano]

[tscii:b3b5d95e1b]
Another song whose "portions" will be difficult to port - chinnanjiru vayadhil unnaippOl of meeNdum gOkila - I don't think the 2nd interlude can be ported as such to another movie :-)


app_engine, too much of a coincidence :)

I had posted a write up here regarding preludes and it triggered a debate in my office blog. And i used the same example for my point.

Quoting it here,

An example for >> காட்சிப்படுத்துவது>> - I take a Raja song and an old song. The situation in ‘Oru naaL yaaro’ from ‘Major Chandrakanth’ is, a brother and sister fool their neighborhood that the sister is singing live on a radio station. Let’s forget the fact that the situation is totally unrealistic. Check out the second interlude where Nagesh visually translates the music. The interlude gives proper space for that act.

Now, in ‘Chinnanchiru vayathil’ from ‘MeeNdum kokhila’, take the second interlude and its corresponding video. (The set up is a ‘poNNu paakkira’ ceremony. The girl’s mom walks in to the hall, hands over two tumblers of coffee, walks again and hands over two more tumblers) Raja wins hands down, IMHO, for the choice of the instruments. (In the ‘oru naaL yaaro’, I would say the MD has chosen some instruments which really sound like the objects shown in screen. The way Raja used flute to demonstrate her walking, I think, is bloody brilliant). Also, in this particular case, the credit for the Major Chandrakanth song is equally shared by the genius of Nagesh.

[/tscii:b3b5d95e1b]

[Sureshs65]

I have always been intrigued by one particular song which Raja transposed into a different language with some modifications is 'Pachamala Poovu'. This came to Malayalam as 'Endhu Paranjalum' in Achuvinte Amma. Both of are very sensitive and touching songs. Raja does something, which I can't put my finger on, by which the whole color changes in Malayalam. From a slightly rhythm oriented Tamil love song it changes to a very free flowing and a touching mother-child song in Malayalam. Nothing short of a genius touch.

[Sureshs65]

Good writing Arvind. As a_e said earlier, you should write more and also more often :)

[app_engine]

OTOH, yEh zindagi got effortlessly ported to en vAzhvilE (Kamal to Rajini, l,s & barrell)
Hmm

Why was poongaatru pudhidhAnAdhu tune not used in Sadma ?

I got so much irritated with BM (and IR) for not using 'poongAtRu' as such for Hindi. That was a big, big career mistake for Raja. Easy example as to how they misread the Bombay market.

Fortunately for ARR, he didn't do that blunder with Roja and Hindi film lovers got to hear what kind of innovations Thamizh's are capable of!

[Sureshs65]

a_e,

I think the basic difference is that 'Sadma' was a remade movie while 'Roja' was a dubbed movie. While 'Poonkatru' is a definite classic, do you think it was such a major blunder to include 'Ye Zindagi' instead? I thought people liked that as well. Infact I heard Naresh Iyer tell in one show that it was his all time favorite and he can keep on listening to that song any number of times!!

To be very honest, dubbed movie's music success from South India to Hindi has been very less. Rahman's films have been exceptions. I haven't heard the songs of Hindi 'Mudalvan'. Where the songs the same as in Tamil? Somehow the songs of that film didn't catch fire in Hindi. Neither did the film. But music of films like 'Roja' and 'Kadalan' were great hits up North.

[Sureshs65]

Pressed the Post button soon :) Given that dubbed movie music had not been a great hit, maybe BM and Raja decided to introduce 'Yeh Zindagi' instead since it was a remake and not a dub. As I said, it was not a bad song but whether 'Poonkatru' would have made such a drastic change to Raja's fortune in North, I am not all that sure.

[rajasaranam]

Infact I heard Naresh Iyer tell in one show that it was his all time favorite and he can keep on listening to that song any number of times!!


Adding to that Once Ismail Durbar was overwhelmed at a music contest when a participant sung this song and got up applauding saying that this was one of the Best ever creations in Hindi film music.

[app_engine]

sureshs65, rs :

I don't disagree that yEh zindagi is a good song.

However, it's a much watered down version of the highly innovative 'poongAtRu' in my very strong opinion.

It simply doesn't invoke awe in me like the original!

[Plum]

I dont like to quote anonymous "north indian friends" but here I have to record that a good number of such specimen think that Ae Zindagi is superior to Poongatru. It does seem like conscious customization on IR-BM's part to me.

[Sureshs65]

a_e,

My feeling is that they may have felt that the charanams are very 'south indianish', especially where the tune of the charamam loops back into the pallavi. 'Nee endhan..' part. Maybe that is why they did not want to transpose it to Hindi. Not sure if that is a strong argument though. 'Kuzhaloodum Kannanuku' sound so very typical Tamil song but it did quite well in Hindi as well. Honestly I would not have chosen 'Kuzhaloodum' if someone had asked me which song to remake in Hindi. So there I am, neither here nor there :) Maybe only BM and Raja can tell us why they chose not to use 'Poongatru'. Going by the evidence their change was successful. But what if they had put in 'Poonkatru' instead? Your guess is as good as mine :)

[app_engine]

But what if they had put in 'Poonkatru' instead? Your guess is as good as mine :)

:-)
சும்மா அங்கலாய்ப்பு தான், it does not make any difference anyway :-)

There may be a lot of "existing grammar" in any field, but the success comes in sounding "entirely different" and at the same time acceptable :-) Means the cliche's should be taken out but underlying grammar maintained...I think yEh zindagi had cliche's...

[Shakthiprabha]

RAAGAs and the impact it has on emotions. IMO, I have NEVER seen any MD to handle this as effectively as IR :bow:

That is the reason most music touch and kindle temporary moods, few music touch our heart whilst IR's music touch our VERY SOUL. :bow:

[irir123]

OTOH, yEh zindagi got effortlessly ported to en vAzhvilE (Kamal to Rajini, l,s & barrell)
Hmm

Why was poongaatru pudhidhAnAdhu tune not used in Sadma ?

I got so much irritated with BM (and IR) for not using 'poongAtRu' as such for Hindi. That was a big, big career mistake for Raja. Easy example as to how they misread the Bombay market.

Fortunately for ARR, he didn't do that blunder with Roja and Hindi film lovers got to hear what kind of innovations Thamizh's are capable of!

'Poongatru' has a discontinous pallavi beginning - 'poongatru' gap, 'pudhidhaanadhu', gap, 'pudhu vaazhvu', gap ' sadhiraadudhu' - also the charanam melody part is way too complex - all these elements wud not have gone well with the N.Indian audiences

'yeh zindagi' is more continous! and hence was instantly accepted!

[app_engine]

'Poongatru' has a discontinous pallavi beginning - 'poongatru' gap, 'pudhidhaanadhu', gap, 'pudhu vaazhvu', gap ' sadhiraadudhu' - also the charanam melody part is way too complex - all these elements wud not have gone well with the N.Indian audiences

'yeh zindagi' is more continous! and hence was instantly accepted!

Possibly the same line of thinking led the sadmA team to change it but for an exactly similar style pallavi ('chinna chinna Asai') another team went ahead without change & NI audience whole heartedly accepted that, called it innovative music :-)

Since there was another smooth flowing melody in that film anyways (the lullaby), the team should have gone ahead with the same format. Even for SI audience, hadn't IR introduced so many such new things (mostly with start-up kind of directors / no big banners) to a rousing welcome? machchAnappAththeengaLA -guitar chords (flute in the later part of the song)- malavAzhaththoppukkuLLE -guitar chords...? Then why the bayam when he went to Bombay?

[app_engine]

Even before MP was remade into sadmA, there were so many NI fans in our hostel for the originals. It wasn't unusual for boys to play those in hostel entertainment programs etc. Ofcourse kaNNE kalaimAnE was the fav but poongAtRu was loved for its guitar work by many...

[Sureshs65]

a_e,

As I said we can only guess why they changed it. In case of 'Roja' I don't think it was really a conscious decision. The movie was dubbed and hence all song went as they were. In case of a film like 'Alaipayuthe' the decision would have been conscious one since it was remade. The songs became a big hit in Hindi as well.

I would to some extent agree with irir123 on the flow. 'Chinna Chinna Asai' flow is definitely smooth whereas 'Poongatru' goes all over the place, especially in the charanams. As I said, whether that would have made any change to Raja's fortune in Hindi is questionable. I understand your frustration though. I have also seen lot of North Indian guys being very big fans of Raja's Tamil output.

[irir123]

'chinna chinna aasai' has a certain continuity of both rhythm, tempo (with a slight change in the first half of the second interlude) and tune - ' poongatru' does not! IR had already exposed southies to several kinds/levels of sophistication, by the time MP came out - so it wasnt considered unusual - but wud have been considered so in the north!

[kiru]

'chinna chinna aasai' has a certain continuity of both rhythm, tempo (with a slight change in the first half of the second interlude) and tune - ' poongatru' does not! IR had already exposed southies to several kinds/levels of sophistication, by the time MP came out ..

I think this is a western technique. Funny thing is, I feel, if analyzed IR seems to have used more western techniques, still sounds Indian, than compared, to say, "modern MDs" like Rahman.

[genesis]

It is ignorant to assume N.I. music lovers were not exposed to complex tunes or dumb to appreciate it. There were lot of great MDs in 1960s and 1970s (SDB, RDB, Salilda, Naushad to name the best) weaved lot of complex tunes that were comparable to IR's. It is true Bollywood music hit some lows in the 1980s, when IR was churning out amazing tunes for us.

Why IR was not successful in Hindi... it was different time and different situation. For ARR, lot of things worked in his favour: Mani Ratnam, Shankar's song picturization, Sat TV and image.

[Plum]

Azhagana ratcahsiye was replaced with another tune in hindi. Idhellam hit and miss dhaan.

[Shakthiprabha]

It is ignorant to assume N.I. music lovers were not exposed to complex tunes or dumb to appreciate it. There were lot of great MDs in 1960s and 1970s (SDB, RDB, Salilda, Naushad to name the best) weaved lot of complex tunes that were comparable to IR's.

:yes:

[Sureshs65]

Genesis,

What you say is true to a large extent though I may not agree with all the music directors you have quoted, but that is besides the point. The truth is that the rich legacy of Hindi music, the best in India, hit an all time low in the 80s with lot of dumbed down music. Infact I have heard SPB say that 'Naane Naana' as being done in a North Indian way since it had a free flowing tune. I guess the industry during those time thought that Hindi film music required a certain flow. As Plum remarked, you win some, you lose some :)

[AravindMano]

Good writing Arvind. As a_e said earlier, you should write more and also more often :)

Thanks Suresh & a_e :)

[Sanjeevi]

'Poongatru' has a discontinous pallavi beginning - 'poongatru' gap, 'pudhidhaanadhu', gap, 'pudhu vaazhvu', gap ' sadhiraadudhu' - also the charanam melody part is way too complex - all these elements wud not have gone well with the N.Indian audiences

'yeh zindagi' is more continous! and hence was instantly accepted!

And one song comes to my mind for gap matter is "Eeramana rojavae" song. Even raja has handled the gap in the rthym pattern which is very innovative I believe and kind of 'rasanaiyai thoondum' action.

[crajkumar_be]

'Poongatru' has a discontinous pallavi beginning - 'poongatru' gap, 'pudhidhaanadhu', gap, 'pudhu vaazhvu', gap ' sadhiraadudhu' - also the charanam melody part is way too complex - all these elements wud not have gone well with the N.Indian audiences

'yeh zindagi' is more continous! and hence was instantly accepted!
Even at the risk of sounding condescending/patronizing i strongly agree! Complexities in interludes are often missed up north, IMO
[Rahman is a pleasant exception but i guess there's something else by which he hooks 'em]

[P_R]

the usual <...oh idhula ivvaLO vishayam irukkudhA :bow: >

[irir123]

genesis and others: I didnt mean to be condescending abt the overall musical sensibilities of ppl beyond the VIndhyas

even when SDB or a RDB were complex, their musical complexities did not include jumping totally from one genre to another within a span of a minute in an interlude! thats another part of IR that goes hand in hand with his tune discontinuity - somehow our collective musical taste buds have gotten used to that - for instance, while the pallavi of 'roja ondru muthham ketkum neram' if tweaked a bit cud have easily suited NI tastes, the prelude of the same song as it is wud have sounded 'weirdly' complex for them!

another example from MP is'vaanengum thanga vin meengal' kind of pallavi-anupallavi was understandably changed in tune structure to something totally different - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-jXMmuN5qI - barring the initial flute rendering plus the guitar usage, when Asha Bhosle starts humming 'la la', its composed a la RDB-style, particularly the guitar that accompanies this portion when Asha hums is very reminiscent of the way RDB used the guitar is films like 'Hum kisi se kam naheen' or some of the songs in Kamals 'sanam teri kasam' etc to suit the RDB-induced palate!

IR did not do several Hindi films - had he done that, say around 20-25 in a year, he wud have easily grasped the spirit/needs and gradually infused his own 'genre' and made it acceptable to NI audiences as well!

given that he did very few in Hindi, the popularity of SADMA is quite stunning!

its a matter of someone like Roger Federer or a Sampras getting adjusted to the clay court of the French Open, after having played mostly on the Wimbledon grass courts! or a Sachin, playing more on minefields of pitches to get a feel and then conquer - IR never had a chance to get that 'feel' by doing a series of films in Hindi one after the other!

[crajkumar_be]

"Jaane Do Na" - It failed because of its complexity. idha naan yendha court la venaalum adichu solluven!

[app_engine]

"Jaane Do Na" - It failed because of its complexity. idha naan yendha court la venaalum adichu solluven!

ஷ்ரேயா ஒரு இந்தி இன்டர்வ்யூல இத சிலாகித்துப்பாடினாங்க, தோல்வின்னு நான் ஒப்புத்துக்க மாட்டேன் :)

[crajkumar_be]

Shreya namma aalu :)

Naan kelvi patta (paditha) varaikkum, Cheeni Kum la matha paadalgalukku kedacha varaverppu "Jaane Do Na" ku kedaikkala. Online reviews, air time etc...

"sara yeh aalam" - Shiva.. idhellam Abishek Bachanukku pidikkalaam.. ethana perukku pidikkum? Check out any song which they even lift from Raaja, they will be dumbed-down versions.
"Neele Neele Ambar", "Rakkamma Kayya Thattu", in fact after listening to "Vaanengum", the Hindi version sounds like blasphemy - Why is IR forced to do this, i wonder! And i agree with irir.

[Sureshs65]

irir123,

What you say is quite true. I am also stunned by the complexity Raja was able to bring into Tamil Film Music field and yet make everyone accept it. That is just amazing. He has definitely made a generation understand these complexities. The music directors who came in after him did reduce the complexity and nowadays you need to ask, "Complexity? What is that and how much does it cost?" :)

I can understand Malayalees taking up Raja's tunes easily because the ground was prepared by people like Dakshinamurthy Swami and later by Raveendran. (The tunes of Sarath nowadays are quite complex too.) Telugu was a different matter altogether, with the very tepid tunes of Chakravarthy ruling the roost and Raja again introduced all the complexity there and at the same time ensured everyone loved his music.

[Sureshs65]

a_e,

Shreya infact starts off by saying she is not going to sing "Chenni Kum Hai" showing that it is the more popular song and people expect her to sing it!!

[irir123]

hi all - here are some interludes of IR which wud have and WILL NEVER work with North Indian audiences, but which were very popular down South!!

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=e826f3de5792e588391d7d881749d3a7e04e75f6 e8ebb871

the reason ?? their complexity! even though they were all hip, smooth and very state-of-the-art, they were way too sophisticated and complex for an audience who have never been exposed to such nuances before!

[genesis]

(The tunes of Sarath nowadays are quite complex too.)

I agree Sharath's tunes are pretty complex.. but I felt "jerky" when listening to few of his songs as if the complexities were forcefully incorporated. I never got that kind of feel with IR.

[kiru]

Folks..good points on IR's song complexity. Let me share some of my thoughts as well. I think if it is just tunes for the human voice I am sure other MDs whether in north or south (say MSV) would have probably done equal or better than IR. I think where IR differs is, breaking the tune out for the whole orchestra either parallelly (in harmony layers) or sequentially with fills and line endings (brighas ?). irir123 had a good explanation/example of the sequential breaks in the tune for the instruments. Another example I think is en iniya pon nilavE. He has also a good point, given time, IR would have prepared his audience for this.
Please note, IR always thinks "parallel" - in the 3 note composition in Italy he says, "this is how it will sound if I split it for the orchestra" in tamil "pirichchu koduththa".
(BTW, in general I feel malayalee MDs tunes are very strong and free flowing, probable thanks to the raagam based composition approach (and I like a large % of random malayalam songs than in tamil). If some song does not sound good, in my case, it happens to be one of our guys like vidyasaagar).

[venkkiram]

இந்தத் திரியின் தலைப்பு தான் கொஞ்சம் இடிக்குது..

"பாடல் வரிகளும் சூழ்நிலையும்" என்பதில் சூழ்நிலை என்ற பதம் மட்டுமே ராஜாவுக்கு என்றுமே பெருமை சேர்க்கும் ஒன்று.

கடந்த இருபது வருடத்தில் ராஜாவின் இசையில் வந்த அருமையான பாடல்களை கணக்கிலெடுத்தால், பெரும்பாலானவை மலிவான தரமற்ற, கற்பனை வறட்சி மிகுந்த பாடல் வரிகளைக் கொண்டவை.

இசையை உச்சத்தில் வைத்து அழகு பார்த்த, பார்க்கும் ராஜா, பாடல் வரிகள் விஷயத்தில் கொஞ்சமும் அக்கறையில்லாமல் தரத்தை படுகுழியில் போட்டு புதைத்த பாடல்களும் நிறைய இருக்கிறது.

குறிஞ்சிப் பூக்கள் போல, மேத்தா, ஆர்.வி.உதயகுமார், முத்துலிங்கம், பழனிபாரதி போன்றவர்களிடம் கன்ஸிஸ்டன்ஸி காணப்பட்டது. ஆனால் தொடர்ந்து இவர்கள் எழுதுவதில்லை.

அன்பர் ஒருவர் இன்னொரு திரியில் ஃபிரேவ் ஹார்ட் படத்தின் இறுதிக்காட்சிகள் ராஜாவின் இசையில் எப்படி அழகாக இருக்கிறது என சிலாகித்திருந்தார். எனக்கும் அதுபோல ஒரு ஆசை உண்டு. அது ராஜாவின் கடந்த இருபது வருட மலிவான பாடல் வரிகளை, வைரமுத்துவின் உதவியால் திருத்தி எழுதினால் எப்படி இருக்கும் என்ற கற்பனைதான். அப்படி ஒன்று நிகழுமானால், நிச்சயம் என்னைப் போன்ற பலரை மீளா இன்பத்தில் ஆழ்த்தும் என்ற நம்பிக்கை இருக்கிறது.

உதாரணத்திற்கு நிறைய சொல்லலாம்.

"அழகி" பட பாடல் ..

பாட்டு சொல்லி பாடச் சொல்லி
குங்குமம் வந்ததம்மா!
கேட்டுக்கொள்ள கிட்ட வந்து
மங்கலம் தந்ததம்மா!

பல்லவியின் இந்த நாலு வரிகள் போதும், ஏன் அந்தப் பாடல் "சிறந்த பாடகி" என்ற விருதை மட்டுமே பெற முடிந்தது என உணர.

[Sureshs65]

venki,

I am sure many will agree with you with regard to lack of quality lyrics in many Raja songs in the recent past. Atleast I am one of them. In another thread I had stated that given a choice of getting a better lyricist or a better sound engineer, Raja should opt for the former. Unfortunately looks like Raja with Vairamuthu is a pipe dream given that people like BR have tried very intensely to make it happen. I too would love to see it happen. (I can definitely see how Vairamuthu's contribution elevated Rahman songs in TFM.)(Other than the song of Azhagi you mentioned, I feel that in Valmiki, 'Kooda Varuiya' is a pathetic start for a pallavi.)

Having said that, just wanted to point put that this thread does not look at the lyrics per se but on how Raja changed his orchestration to suit the lyrics. I had mentioned one example of 'Valaidu Nelindu Sellum Padai'. It will be nice to know more such examples where the music was fine tuned to suit the lyrics, however good or bad the lyrics were.

[Benny Lava]

We cannot totally blame the lyricists as well. Mettuku paatu nu oru soozhnilai varum podhu, avanga kadivaalam potta kudhirai madhiri thaan.

Ofcourse there were some brilliant lyrics written to tunes before, but those are exceptions. Ellarum andha alavuku ezhudha mudiyum nu edhirpaakradhu konjam kashtam thaan.

[Plum]

We cannot totally blame the lyricists as well. Mettuku paatu nu oru soozhnilai varum podhu, avanga kadivaalam potta kudhirai madhiri thaan.

Ofcourse there were some brilliant lyrics written to tunes before, but those are exceptions. Ellarum andha alavuku ezhudha mudiyum nu edhirpaakradhu konjam kashtam thaan.
Well, I believe VM writes for Rahman's tunes. Dont see a problem there. A good lyricist can do it either way much as a good MD can do it either way.

As a rule, one can definitely allege that IR tends to go for the colloquial against the literary. There is a case that can be built that he doesnt care for literary quality of lyrics. But generalising that mettukku paattu will inherently bring down lyrical quality is not tenable.

[Benny Lava]

I do not want to make this into an argument, but this is simply what I feel.

Even when VM (even Kannadasan wrote for mettu) writes for a tune, they bring in their own quality. But my sincere opinion is that, they would write better stuff if allowed to write the verse first.

When he has the right freedom, a poet can write a song with a theme in mind. He can have control over the whole structure of the poem in order to achieve coherence of the verses and influence the reader towards the theme and deliver the impact in final few verses or wherever he feels it is apt.

For e.g, I posted a review of a VM song "Uyirum neeye" in ARR section. The power of the lyrics lie in the verse where he says

"PeNNai padaithaan, maNNai padaitthaan
Katrum, mazhaiyum, oliyum padaitthaan (II)
Boomikku adhanaal nimmadhi illai (II)
Sami thavitthan...
Sami thavitthan thaayai padaitthan "

The other lines nicely build up to this verse. I am not saying it is impossible to conceptualize such a poem with a preset tune, but it is all the more difficult to do it while adhering to a tune. That is why we see that our lyricists have turned towards being innovative within a line rather than across the poem. An e.g for this would be another VM verse that I posted today:

"சொல்லுக்கும் தெரியாமல் சொல்லத்தான் வந்தேனே
சொல்லுக்குள் அர்த்தம் போல சொல்லாமல் நின்றேனே"

Beautiful phrase and the coherence is also there throughout the song. The exchanges between the singer's are enjoyable and do not go out of sync. But as a whole, the poem is just another love poem whereas the former is one notch higher.

It is my belief and assumption that VM wrote the lyrics for the Uyirum neeye song first and the second song was set to tune first before writing the lyrics.

May be Kannadasan did write some exceptional poems while sticking to tunes set by MSV, but not all are Kannadasan. Why, even our ancestors wrote so many great poems while sticking to a tight marabu structure. But for the unimaginative situations in our film songs and for their volume and commercial viability, we cannot expect such a quality. Giving some freedom to Lyricist is perhaps only hope of improving the quality, but how many MD's of today can set tune to lyrics?

[P_R]

mettukku pAttu of course

A cursory reading of VM's lyrics vs. 'poem' collections should make this a no debate.

[kiru]

...
As a rule, one can definitely allege that IR tends to go for the colloquial against the literary,.
I also have similar opinions but to be fair to IR I think he would settle for simple words versus some archaic words. If you'd observe kannadhasan never used literary words..thats the way it should be because movie is for all versus a book or poetry is for the initiated. But only issue is he slowly degenerated from simple to colloquialism.
Another issue is he wants the lyrics in a certain way..sort of back seat drives it..that is why vaali who writes some cools things for Rahman does not do the same for IR. VM wont work with IR. Completely different mindsets. They were mean to each other and so it would be difficult to reconcile. oh well..that is why he is not god..simply human

[Benny Lava]

mettukku pAttu of course

A cursory reading of VM's lyrics vs. 'poem' collections should make this a no debate.

PR, podhuva solreengala illa vairamuthu'ku mattum solreengala?

[Benny Lava]

...
As a rule, one can definitely allege that IR tends to go for the colloquial against the literary,.
I also have similar opinions but to be fair to IR I think he would settle for simple words versus some archaic words. If you'd observe kannadhasan never used literary words..thats the way it should be because movie is for all versus a book or poetry is for the initiated. But only issue is he slowly degenerated from simple to colloquialism.
Another issue is he wants the lyrics in a certain way..sort of back seat drives it..that is why vaali who writes some cools things for Rahman does not do the same for IR. VM wont work with IR. Completely different mindsets. They were mean to each other and so it would be difficult to reconcile. oh well..that is why he is not god..simply human

:thumbsup:

[P_R]

PR, podhuva solreengala illa vairamuthu'ku mattum solreengala?
podhuvA...

But perhaps I should clarify some personal prejudices. I am not a fan of much of pudhukkavidhai. The structureless broken verse, clever stinging together of phrases and aphorisms are things I invariably find unimpressive. So to take that as a starting point and to fit the music to them is something I find 'inappropriate' and the end product invariably unimpressive.

Music provides a stucture within which the lyricists can be creative, which is what makes the lines stand out. Pick out the great lyrics in the history of TFM, write them in a piece of paper (one below the other of course !) and read/recite them aloud to see how the 'poetry' magically disappears.

PS: Add an 'invariably' somewhere in the above paragraph.

[P_R]

VM wont work with IR. Completely different mindsets. won't in the sense "won't anymore" right ?
Because if you meant "wouldn't have worked" then I don't think it is the case because their partnership gave some great songs.

[Benny Lava]

Ofcourse, othukka vendiyadhu thaan.

Karuthu azhagu, adhuvum marabula karuthu solradhu migavum azhagu.

Aana inga prachanaye... Karuthey illanradhu thaan. I used to be an audience for a while in Kaviyarangam that my dad conducts every month. All the poets reciting there are big fans of marabu, but most of the songs recited there sounded lifeless to me, because they lacked the content. That kinda chased me away from those gatherings. Like one of my dad's friend quipped "nalla alaveduthu thachha chokka madhiri irukku.. kavidhai madhiri illa". So the content is more important than structure to me, of course content with proper structure is of different quality altogether.

And yeah, here the basic grouse is about lack of content... if it comes with a good musical framework, all the more welcome :)

[AravindMano]

[tscii:943986866d]
For e.g, I posted a review of a VM song "Uyirum neeye" in ARR section. The power of the lyrics lie in the verse where he says

"PeNNai padaithaan, maNNai padaitthaan
Katrum, mazhaiyum, oliyum padaitthaan (II)
Boomikku adhanaal nimmadhi illai (II)
Sami thavitthan...
Sami thavitthan thaayai padaitthan "

The other lines nicely build up to this verse.

Nice observation. :thumbsup:

Wrote this in some other thread..

Naadhan en jeevanae - Kaadhal Oviyam. One of the best of Raja, SJ and Vairamuthu. Especially Janaki! The bass line is intriguing.

Meeting point of the genius of a lyricist & music director – last line in the first charaNam. ‘விழியாகி விடவா?’. Stunning [/tscii:943986866d]

[Benny Lava]

[tscii:079406b4c8]
For e.g, I posted a review of a VM song "Uyirum neeye" in ARR section. The power of the lyrics lie in the verse where he says

"PeNNai padaithaan, maNNai padaitthaan
Katrum, mazhaiyum, oliyum padaitthaan (II)
Boomikku adhanaal nimmadhi illai (II)
Sami thavitthan...
Sami thavitthan thaayai padaitthan "

The other lines nicely build up to this verse.

Nice observation. :thumbsup:

Wrote this in some other thread..

Naadhan en jeevanae - Kaadhal Oviyam. One of the best of Raja, SJ and Vairamuthu. Especially Janaki! The bass line is intriguing.

Meeting point of the genius of a lyricist & music director – last line in the first charaNam. ‘விழியாகி விடவா?’. Stunning [/tscii:079406b4c8]

Ohh.. I didnt observe it.. the review was by some other person who apparently doesn't even understand Tamil completely (sinhalese)

http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?p=1884739#1884739

And yeah, Kadhal Oviyam is certainly one of the best albums. I had Sangeedha jadhi mullai in my mind when the talk of mettuku paatu arose. Brilliant lyrics, and yet written to a tune first.

[Sureshs65]

My 2p worth.

On one hand we have the poet, whose imagination can give us some great poetry. Lot of the poets of earlier era wrote the poems first and the MDs set their tunes. Other than the great poets down south there are lot of lovely poetry in old Hindi songs and in some songs you can clearly make out that the poet wrote first and the tune was set later. (Infact it is said that Khayyam and Sahir Ludhyanvi fell out after 'Kabhi Kabhi' as each felt his contribution was central to the success of the songs. If you hear 'Main Pal Do Pal Ka' song you can clearly make that the poem came first and the mettu later).

The argument against this would be that the poet would write in a meter that most suits him and what he feels suits the situation and thus constrain the musical structure that the MD can provide. To an extent you can observe this is old songs. I mean you will rarely find any old song which flows so tortuously as 'Thanga Changli Minnum Painkili' or 'Vizhiyil Kadai Ezhudum Neramidu'. That is because the poet cannot conceive such a musical structure. There were exceptions of course but by and large this would have been the case.

People like MSV, KVM were masters in setting songs for poetry. SPB infact says that KVM particularly was a master in this regard. Whatever verse was given to him, KVM would set it to tune and not demand any change from the lyricist. Salil Da and Raja are known to be people who insist on the tune first and if they hadn't, we would probably not got the gloriously complicated tunes these two masters were able to produce.

As Plum says, a good poet must be able to write in both the scenarios. The sad truth is that in Tamil, there is no one now who matches the quality of Vairamuthu. Similarly, the MD also has to give quality when asked to set tune to already available lyrics. Raja's tune for Bharathiyar's 'Nirpadhuve' is amazing, given the structure of that poem. Similarly, C Narayana Reddy, the famous Telugu lyricist, in an interview said that for the song, "Vatapatra Sayeeki' (Swathi Muthyam) Raja had composed a tune first but K Vishwanath and C Narayan Reddy wanted Raja to tune the lyrics which were already written by C Narayan Reddy and he came up with that magical tune which was sung superbly, as usual, by Susheela.

[Plum]

PR, podhuva solreengala illa vairamuthu'ku mattum solreengala?
podhuvA...

But perhaps I should clarify some personal prejudices. I am not a fan of much of pudhukkavidhai. The structureless broken verse, clever stinging together of phrases and aphorisms are things I invariably find unimpressive. So to take that as a starting point and to fit the music to them is something I find 'inappropriate' and the end product invariably unimpressive.

Music provides a stucture within which the lyricists can be creative, which is what makes the lines stand out. Pick out the great lyrics in the history of TFM, write them in a piece of paper (one below the other of course !) and read/recite them aloud to see how the 'poetry' magically disappears.

PS: Add an 'invariably' somewhere in the above paragraph.

I share the prejudice. I suspect so does IR. Besides, Kiru's point on backseat driving is very valid. I feel the same way, too.

un kuthama, en kuthama, yaara naanum kutham solla - may not be great lyrics, but with that tune, IR's inflections, and the orchestration, I dont think there could have been a better set of aesthetics for that particular moment in the movie...

[Plum]

Also, the oft-quoted MSV-Kannadasan chemistry. PonnenbEn in particular. MSV never tires of quoting it, and when Sridhar was alive, nor was he. Here's to the 'lyricals' in HUB: andha tune-ku vera lines ezhudhunga paapOm...heck, VairamuthuvaiyE ezhudha solli paarkaNum...ennA thErudhunnu.

Since I am biased towards music as an art over poetry, I tend to ignore the banality of lyrics in IR songs - I suspect I am his target audience.

[app_engine]

The lyric to some extent reflects the state of the language in the society, IMO. (To quote an earlier tfmpage post, the change from 'nalanthAna' to 'sugam thAna' to 'sowkkiyamA' - none of these had any IR effect BTW)

If someone says IR cannot do decent 'pAttukku mettu', one can only laugh at such ignorance. I'd ask them to listen to 'ninnai charaN adaindhEn'. Period.

It's a question of "what is required for the movie". Do they need a catchy tune that will go well with the orchestration and mesmerize people regardless of the words? Or do they need a very thought provoking poem with no stress on orchestration but just a decent melody? In other words, who is the team lead?

It's obvious that IR wanted to be 'eppavum nAn rAjA' and poets had to service him. We're in a take-it-or-leave-it situation :-)

[Plum]

app - no we are not saying IR cant do mettu for paattu. No way!

We are just saying that in his philosophy, and mine, probably influenced by him, literary quality of lyrics isnt as important as the impact. If his music can make the impact, then the lyrics merely need to be functional. I concur with that view. Not that he has stated that explicitly but I infer that.

While this works most of the time, a "kanavil dhinamum vandhu kaNNadippAL" is jarring.

In the context of "BGM padathukku thevaiya" raised by Prabhu Ram, literary quality of lyrics padathukku thevaiya is an even more relevant question. It doesnt hurt to not have great lyrics but I can quite understand the POV if someone says that enhanced literary quality of lyrics enhances the quality of the movie.
(also, saying that, this gives me better empathy for PR's stand viz-a-viz BGM)

[app_engine]

While this works most of the time, a "kanavil dhinamum vandhu kaNNadippAL" is jarring.


While I totally agree with you that there are a ton of such "jarring" verses in IR songs, do you think the lyrical quality of songs by his contemporaries including MSV of late 70's / 80's (or next gen) is "mostly greater"? I don't think so.

While IR was a "big influence" on the Thamizh society in the way they look at films in general and film music in particular, I think the lyrics were actually influenced by the "Thamizh society" in general (which was in turn influenced by IR to some extent on this aspect).

While MSV had one good 'vidiya vidiya solliththaruvEn' in a movie, didn't he complement that with two horrible 'vAdA en machchigaLA, vengAyA bajjikaLA' & 'pOkkirikkuppOkkiri rAjA'? Why only single out IR? Remember who tuned "my name is billA", which apart from having kuppai lyrics also glorified the name of a brutal child molester / killer?

[app_engine]

Musing more on this 'lyric' aspect, I think the degeneration started much before him, when vAli started off in a big way with his "eulogising" MGR (and KaNNadAsan's prolificity took a beating due to his personality clashes / politics and various other factors by the 70's). The more heard movie songs of 70's had no appreciable lyrics or music but political agenda on horn speakers, IMO. Forcing mEttukkudi's to go to lyrics they could not understand / appreciate much (indhi / abba-boneyM).

That way, it won't be wrong to say that IR kind of brought back attention to Thamizh lyrics once again to TN people :-) Except that save a brief association with VM, he possibly couldn't get opportunities to work with extraordinary poets.

[Sureshs65]

a_e,

I would agree with you reg lyrics vis-a-vis society in general. When Vairamuthu was once asked why he did not write philosophical lyrics like Kannadasan did, he ended up asking which hero can carry those sort of lyrics that Sivaji did earlier.

[app_engine]

Sureshs65,

That's exactly the point. Many who complain about the lyrical quality of IR songs turn a blind eye to 'veththalayappOttENdee's, 'mukkAbulA's and 'hai rabbA's - selectively quoting a rare 'Ambal-mouvval' & 'vaseegara un nenjinikka' kind to project how MSV kept it high - IR dropped it dead - but ARR / next gen revived it etc.

The fact is most current songs -where IR is no practical factor - have abysmal poetic quality - littered with thanglish and other unintelligible words; one has to dig deep to find gems, if any!

[crajkumar_be]

Rajasaranam,
Pichai Paathiram - You got me on this one :notworthy:

[venkkiram]

பாறையில பூ முளைச்சி பார்த்தவக யாரு!
அன்பு கொண்ட நெஞ்சத்துக்கு ஆயுசு நூறு!

- கொடியிலே மல்லிகப் பூ..

நானும் சேர்ந்து போகவும் சிறகு இல்லையே
உறவும் இல்லையே..
..
அறியாத ஆடு.. வழி மாறியதோ
..
தங்கப்பூவே சந்திப்போமா..
சந்தித்தாலும் சிந்திப்போமா!
..
தரைக்கு வந்த பிறகு
தவிக்கும் இந்த சருகு

-- போகுதே போகுதே

கடலோர கவிதைகள் படத்தை கலைப்படம் என்றும் சொல்லமுடியாது. முழுக்க முழுக்க வியாபார நோக்கில் எடுக்கப்பட்ட படமென்றும் தள்ள முடியாது.

வைரமுத்துவின் வைர வரிகள் ராஜாவின் இசையை கோபுரத்தில் வைத்து அழகு படுத்துகிறது.

[Benny Lava]

Sureshs65,

That's exactly the point. Many who complain about the lyrical quality of IR songs turn a blind eye to 'veththalayappOttENdee's, 'mukkAbulA's and 'hai rabbA's - selectively quoting a rare 'Ambal-mouvval' & 'vaseegara un nenjinikka' kind to project how MSV kept it high - IR dropped it dead - but ARR / next gen revived it etc.

The fact is most current songs -where IR is no practical factor - have abysmal poetic quality - littered with thanglish and other unintelligible words; one has to dig deep to find gems, if any!app_engine,

I very much agree that the poor lyrical quality is a case with all MD's, I didn't mean that only IR's songs were the sufferers. That is why, I supposed that it could be due to "mettukku paatu" constraint (purely a speculation) but more blatantly due to the commercial pressure, volume of music output from our industry (I wonder how yesteryears TFI compares with current one in terms of volume of output) and due to lack of variety in situations. Oru thalaivanum thalaiviyum kadhalikradhukku evlo thaan'ya pudhusa paatu ezhudha mudiyum! The "Muqqala"s and "Hai rabba"s you mentioned very much suffer from the same problems as the IR songs we are discussing here.

[Sureshs65]

Since we are discussing lyrics and also about transposing tunes, I can think of two songs which morphed from being a minor song to a major hit due to lyrics. These are two Hindi tunes which were transposed to Tamil by the music director 'Veda'. (Everyone has pointed out that with a small adjustement, Veda can be transposed to Deva :) One song in Hindi was 'sau bAr janam lengE'. Music by Usha Khanna. This was transposed to Tamil as 'Orayiram pArvayilE'. The lyrics in Hindi were very standard ones and the song a minor hit but the lyrics of Kannadasan made this a very well liked song in Tamil. Another such song, which was again transposed from Hindi by Veda was 'tumE pyar karte hain karte rahenge'. I think the music was by Shankar Jaikishan. This was remade in Tamil as 'nAn malarOdu taniyAga yEn ingu nindrEn'. Kannadasan's lyrics for this song are a joy to listen again and again. He wonderfully tells a story of petty jealousy between the lovers. Both these songs are still quite well known in Tamil Nadu and I hold that their popularity here has more to do with the lyrics of Kannadasan more than the tune itself.

[Sureshs65]

While a good discussion on lyrics is on, I will get back to the intent of the thread :)

Yesterday I was watching the 'Ananda rAgam' song from 'Panner Pushpangal'. You can clearly see that everything in the song done by Raja is for the situation and yet it sounds so wonderful to someone who has no inkling of the situation. Starting for the initial violins till the very end, every piece of music is designed to merge with the happenings on screen. The second interlude especially evokes the movement of the train and when finally the kids enter the train, the bass guitar and the drumming simulate the train movement, though hearing it outside of the film's context, you still enjoy the bass and the drumming. Excellent song.

[Sureshs65]

We were discussing about how 'poonkAtru' from Mundram Pirai was replaced by 'Yeh Zindagi' in Hindi and whether it had to do with the complexity of the tune. There is one more instance wherein a complex tune was replaced by a more free flowing one. The complex tune was from the movie, 'Rudra Veena'. The song 'taraLirAdA tanE vasantham'. You can watch it at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyzmcWWPlVc This was replaced in 'Unnal Mudiyum Thambi' by a more free flowing 'nanjai unDu punjai unDu'. Maybe Balachander thought the Telugu tune was a bit more classical than required? (The situation is about Chiranjeevi / Kamal singing a 'janaranjakam' song based on a classical raga.)

[Plum]

We were discussing about how 'poonkAtru' from Mundram Pirai was replaced by 'Yeh Zindagi' in Hindi and whether it had to do with the complexity of the tune. There is one more instance wherein a complex tune was replaced by a more free flowing one. The complex tune was from the movie, 'Rudra Veena'. The song 'taraLirAdA tanE vasantham'. You can watch it at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyzmcWWPlVc This was replaced in 'Unnal Mudiyum Thambi' by a more free flowing 'nanjai unDu punjai unDu'. Maybe Balachander thought the Telugu tune was a bit more classical than required? (The situation is about Chiranjeevi / Kamal singing a 'janaranjakam' song based on a classical raga.)

I think the key word here is customization rather than de-complexification. Even raNdi raNdi got replaced by enna samayalO, which was more than a tune change; it was a complete situation change for the song. The character of the lower-caste self-made lawyer with his very telugu quirks, and a keen sense of music, couldnt be translated I suppose. Hence, comic relief shifts to Manorama, ThaariNi and Kozhundhanar Kamal and so does the song. In general, UMT seems to be an uninspired effort from KB and Kamal both. KB not capturing the believability of Rudra Veena and Kamal seemingly not very bought-in to the movie. Raja, however, delivered big-time in both versions.

[Sureshs65]

Plum,

Hmmmm. Customization probably better reflects what was attempted. While 'ranDi ranDi' is a clear case of change of scenario, as to what motivated the change to 'nanjai unDu' I am not so sure.

(Surprisingly I have not watched either versions fully to have an opinion on which was better. )

[Plum]

I'll tell you what might have prompted the change from tarali raadha(a personal fav) to Punjai undu.
Post-song scene
Rudra Veena
Gemini: Nuvvu adavilO pAdAve, adh E rAgam telusA
Chiru: telusu naana, hamsadhwani
Gemini: adhi hamsadhwani kaadhura himsadhwani

unnAl mudiyum thambi
Gemini: nee pAdiniye pAttu enna raagam theriuma?
Kamal: theriyumpA, suddha dhanyasi
Gemini: adhu suddha dhanyasi illadA asuddha dhanyasi

himsadhwani is too sanskritised for tamil audience consumption. Now, asuddha is also sanskritised but it is more common among tamil populace. Hence the change. I would pinpoint KB as the source of the change.

[P_R]

I was going to ask if they had changed the raagam and then what happened to the line. :-)

[rajasaranam]

Rajasaranam,
Pichai Paathiram - You got me on this one :notworthy:

:)

Well I too am trying to turn otherway around and we may meet at a point where we have Fantasy situations and realtime situations. Iam pondering over the example of 'Malai kovil' & 'Oru Sudar' quoted by CRV.

[rajasaranam]

80 களின் வைரமுத்து ராஜாவின் மேற்ப்பார்வையில் இருந்த வரைக்கும் தான் அழகான மற்றும் தரமான வரிகளை கொடுக்க முடிந்தது. அதன் பின் வந்த அனேக படங்களில் ஏப்ப சாப்பையான வரிகளை எழுதி படுத்தி எடுத்தார். 90 களில் ரகுமானிடம் சேர்ந்து வெற்றியை சுவைத்த பின் வெறும் அலங்காரங்களிலும் உவமைகளிலும் சிக்கி கொன்டார்.
இன்று அவர் வெறுமனே ஒரு மோடி மஸ்தான் வேலையை செய்து கொன்டிருக்கிறார். ராஜா அவரிடம் இருந்து விலகி இருப்பது எல்லோருக்கும் நல்லது. வாலிக்கும் வயதாகி விட்டது எனவே ராஜா, தாமரை அல்லது முத்துகுமார் போன்றோரிடம் இனைந்து செயல்படலாம் நல்ல வரிகள் வேண்டும் என்றால்.
மற்றபடி ராஜாவின் இசையை மட்டும் ரசித்து விட்டு செல்வது தான் உத்தமம்.

[Sureshs65]

Plum,

Believe me when I say that I typed the same logic in my reply and then was not so sure about it since I hadn't watched the movie and deleted that line. I can resonate with your argument since that was exactly my line of reasoning as well :)

[Sarna]

80 களின் வைரமுத்து ராஜாவின் மேற்ப்பார்வையில் இருந்த வரைக்கும் தான் அழகான மற்றும் தரமான வரிகளை கொடுக்க முடிந்தது. அதன் பின் வந்த அனேக படங்களில் ஏப்ப சாப்பையான வரிகளை எழுதி படுத்தி எடுத்தார். 90 களில் ரகுமானிடம் சேர்ந்து வெற்றியை சுவைத்த பின் வெறும் அலங்காரங்களிலும் உவமைகளிலும் சிக்கி கொன்டார்.
இன்று அவர் வெறுமனே ஒரு மோடி மஸ்தான் வேலையை செய்து கொன்டிருக்கிறார். ராஜா அவரிடம் இருந்து விலகி இருப்பது எல்லோருக்கும் நல்லது. வாலிக்கும் வயதாகி விட்டது எனவே ராஜா, தாமரை அல்லது முத்துகுமார் போன்றோரிடம் இனைந்து செயல்படலாம் நல்ல வரிகள் வேண்டும் என்றால்.
மற்றபடி ராஜாவின் இசையை மட்டும் ரசித்து விட்டு செல்வது தான் உத்தமம்.

Uliyin Osai and Vaalmeegi .... music super'aa irukku... lyrics :oops:

atleast vaalmeegi has decent picturisation... but Uliyin Osai :banghead:

PS :- I am zero in music knowledge... but I am able to enjoy each and every songs of Ilayaraaja 8-) I am becoming more IR fan :)

[Sarna]

Sureshs65 :clap: :clap: nallaa ezhudhureenga :D

[Sureshs65]

Since we are talking about transposing songs, it is not necessary that the MD transposes his own song but gets inspired by a song of another MD and transposes that song into his/her own language. (When I say inspired I mean inspired in the normal sense of the word, not in the new sense, 'we know our MD copied but we love him too much to agree to it' :)

One song which seems to have impressed more than one music director is 'oh re taal mile nadhi ke jal mein' of Roshan (Mukesh the singer, Movie: Anhokee Raat). K V Mahadevan seems to have been impressed by it and gave 'evarikevaru E lokam lO' from Siri Siri Muvva. I have feeling that Raja was also inspired by this song. The pallavi of 'Arum adhu Azham illa' gives me that feeling though the song get a very typical Raja touch as it progresses. Don't look for an exact match. It is the overall tune, mood etc which makes me think so. I am quite confident about KVM's inspiration. Even the lyrics point to it. I am not 100% certain about the Raja tune. To be fair, both KVM and Raja's version showcase their respective individuality.

[Plum]

Plum,

Believe me when I say that I typed the same logic in my reply and then was not so sure about it since I hadn't watched the movie and deleted that line. I can resonate with your argument since that was exactly my line of reasoning as well :)
sure, it is pretty straight forward logic illainA enakku thONi irukkAdhu :-)

Be that as it may, tarali rAdhA with mridangam for rhythm to close out lines (a la Mayile Mayile un thogai engE, another hamsadhwani - is it just coincidental or it is part of patterns in Raja's mind? One more for Rajasaranam's case study) stands out as a melody. Lyrics are sonorous, sit on the tune beautifully, and are meaningful, too. Pulamaipithan(?)'s punjai uNdu is in-your-face with its socialism message - and lamenting in tone - while tarali rAdhA is more positive and optimistic in its tone while giving the same message- perhaps another subtle way in which Rudra Veena turned out to be a more integrated effort than UMT.

[Plum]

Plum,

Believe me when I say that I typed the same logic in my reply and then was not so sure about it since I hadn't watched the movie and deleted that line. I can resonate with your argument since that was exactly my line of reasoning as well :)
sure, it is pretty straight forward logic illainA enakku thONi irukkAdhu :-)

Be that as it may, tarali rAdhA with mridangam for rhythm to close out lines (a la Mayile Mayile un thogai engE, another hamsadhwani - is it just coincidental or it is part of patterns in Raja's mind? One more for Rajasaranam's case study) stands out as a melody. Lyrics are sonorous, sit on the tune beautifully, and are meaningful, too. Pulamaipithan(?)'s punjai uNdu is in-your-face with its socialism message - and lamenting in tone - while tarali rAdhA is more positive and optimistic in its tone while giving the same message- given the optimistic outlook of Udhayamoorthy/Suryanarayana Sastri, perhaps another subtle way in which Rudra Veena turned out to be a more integrated effort than UMT.

[Sureshs65]

Sarna,

Thanks. The more you listen to Raja the more you become his fan(atic) :)

[Sarna]

"Jaane Do Na" - It failed because of its complexity. idha naan yendha court la venaalum adichu solluven!

indha "complexity" dhaan enakku suththamaa puriyala :confused2:

with my zero music knowledge, I feel Ilayaraja songs are more simple and enjoyable than anyother md songs :)

ok paravaa illa.... neenga ellaam continue pannunga :) I will be a silent reader 8-) adhudhaan indha thread'ku nalladhu :)

[kiru]

..
The argument against this would be that the poet would write in a meter that most suits him and what he feels suits the situation and thus constrain the musical structure that the MD can provide. To an extent you can observe this is old songs. I mean you will rarely find any old song which flows so tortuously as 'Thanga Changli Minnum Painkili' or 'Vizhiyil Kadai Ezhudum Neramidu'. That is because the poet cannot conceive such a musical structure. There were exceptions of course but by and large this would have been the case.

.

Suresh ..very good point on why we need to have tune first-lyrics later approach as well.
Considering that our people dont listen to instrumental music (for purely compositional appreciation). This is the only approach that serves music first.

[genesis]

80 களின் வைரமுத்து ராஜாவின் மேற்ப்பார்வையில் இருந்த வரைக்கும் தான் அழகான மற்றும் தரமான வரிகளை கொடுக்க முடிந்தது

This is ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE.

rajasaranam,

Can you also provide a "great" reason why other lyricits were not able to give better output under IR's supervision? (Tip: IRs compositions were so complex and beautiful, many of the lyricists brain went numb, so IR had to write the lyrics himself!!)

How come VM lyrics were good even after he left IR? (VM got national award for Sangamam).

[genesis]

Sureshs65,

That's exactly the point. Many who complain about the lyrical quality of IR songs turn a blind eye to 'veththalayappOttENdee's, 'mukkAbulA's and 'hai rabbA's - selectively quoting a rare 'Ambal-mouvval' & 'vaseegara un nenjinikka' kind to project how MSV kept it high - IR dropped it dead - but ARR / next gen revived it etc.

The fact is most current songs -where IR is no practical factor - have abysmal poetic quality - littered with thanglish and other unintelligible words; one has to dig deep to find gems, if any!

app_engine,

I do accept all the songs from other MD are not great and we come across gems only rarely. But here is why I complain about IR.

1) The number of songs with good lyrics in IR's music were much lower than what other MDs were able to deliver (Ratio) - of course, post VM breakup.
2) Didn't IR intentionally use sub-standard lyricists when he had the option to use good one? (VM in 90s, Thamarai recently)
3) Above all, it is widely believed he did force his words (and voice) in his songs.

As musician IR is a genius - no doubt. :clap: But as a team player, he sucks a big time. :huh: As you mentioned in another post, you can just take it or leave it.

Unfortunately some people like me are not able to take it.

[venkkiram]

genesis

நீங்க முந்திட்டிங்க.. உங்க கருத்தினை அப்படியே ஆமோதிக்கிறேன்.

சங்கமம் மட்டுமில்லை.. ரோஜா, கருத்தம்மா, கன்னத்தில் முத்தமிட்டாள் என நான்கு தேசிய விருதுகள்.. ராஜாவை விட்டு விலகிய பின்பு.. ராஜாவுக்கும் வைரமுத்துக்கும் விருதுகள் ஒரு பொருட்டே இல்லை. கவிஞர் கடந்த இருபது வருடத்தில் புதிய தலைமுறையை தொடர்ந்து ஈர்த்து வந்திருக்கிறார். அந்தக் கண்ணோட்டத்தில் பார்க்கும்போது ராஜாவின் வீச்சு வைரமுத்துவின் வீச்சைக் காட்டிலும் குறைவே.

மெட்டுக்குப் பாட்டு என்பதில் பிரச்சினையேயில்லை. பெரும்பாலான இசையமைப்பாளர்கள் பெரும்பாலான பாடல்களுக்கு மெட்டுக்கே பாடல்வரிகளை அமைக்கச் செய்திருக்கிறார்கள். ராஜாவின் பிரச்சினையே "ஒரு பாடல் ஆசிரியர் பாடலுக்குத் தேவையில்லாத வரிகளை நீக்கத் தெரிந்திருக்கவேண்டும் " என்ற (உலகமகா) சிந்தாந்தத்தில் தொடர்ந்து வலம் வருவதே.

ஒரு அழகான காதல் பாடல் ராஜாவின் பார்வையில் எப்படி சீரழிகிறது பாருங்கள்.

வள்ளி வள்ளி என வந்தான் வடிவேலந்தான்
புள்ளி வைத்து புள்ளி போட்டான் புதுக்கோலம்தான்
சொல்லித்தர சொல்லிக் கேட்டு தினமும்
சொல்லித்தந்த சிந்து பாடினான்
வள்ளி இன்ப வள்ளி என்று தினமும்
முல்லைச்சரம் கொண்டு சூடினான்

இந்த வள்ளி, புள்ளி, சொல்லி இதுலேயே ஜல்லியடித்துக் கொண்டிருந்தால் வாழ்ந்துடும் தமிழ். இதுதான் ராஜாவின் பார்வையில் ரொம்ப எளிமையான தமிழ், சந்தத்துக்கு பொருந்தி வருகிற தமிழ் என்றால் ராஜாவின் புரிதலை நினைத்துப் பாருங்கள். வாலி ராஜாவை "எனக்கு வெண்பா சொல்லிக்கொடுத்தவர்" என வாயார புகழும்போது எனக்கு திருவிளையாடல் நாகேஷின் "ம்ம், இதெல்லாம் நல்லா பண்ணு, ஆனா பாட்டுல மட்டும் கோட்டை வுட்டுடு" என்ற வசனங்கள் தான் நினைவுக்கு வருகிறது. இதுபோன்ற மலிவான பாடல் வரிகள் ஒன்றல்ல..இரண்டல்ல.. நிறைய.. இதெல்லாம் பார்க்கும்போது, வைரமுத்துவின் வரிகள் உங்களுக்கு அலங்காரமாக இருந்தாலும் "சந்திரனும், சூரியனும் அஞ்சல் காரர்கள்" போன்ற காதல் பாடல் வரிகளை ரசிக்கத்தான் மனம் விரும்புகிறது.

புதிய தலைமுறை கவிஞர்கள் நா.முத்துக்குமார், தாமரை ராஜாவை விட்டு கொஞ்சம் தள்ளியே இருப்பது நல்லது. உங்களின் தனித்துவம் ராஜாவின் ஆலோசனையால் என்றைக்கும் சிதைந்து விடக்கூடாது என்ற நல்ல எண்ணத்தில்.

எங்க தமிழ் ஆசிரியரிடம் சமிபத்தில் உரையாடிய போது, என்னிடம் நான் தீவிர ராஜா ரசிகன் எனத் தெரிந்தும் "உங்காளு இசையில் எனக்கு தொகுதியா ரொம்ப பிடிச்சது எதுன்னா, பாரதியும், திருவாசகம் இசைப்பாடல்கள் தான்.. அது ஏன்னு உனக்குப் புரியும்"னு நினைக்கிறேன் என நக்கலா பேசினார். மறுப்பேதும் சொல்றதுக்கில்ல என தலையாட்டி வந்தேன்.

[kiru]

All the lyrics in bharathi are not by bharathi, IR, got pulamaipiththan to write one amazing song which I consider the best lyric in a decade. Also, other songs in bharathi were handpicked by IR and some were cut-and-paste of more than one bharathi song. Same kind of hand-picking went into thiruvaasagam.
What does this mean ? IR is serious about lyrics if the subject is serious. Only problem is you have to write lyrics to IR's style and specification. Lyricists with ego have fallen out with him. But serious lyricists still respect him. There has always been a mismatch of skill level of other artistes working with him. In kodambakkam nobody can question or ask him to change the notes, but when he is in Hungary, if Lazlo Kovacs, even smiles while reading his score, IR gets too nervous/selfconscious and rewrites it.
Agree, he probably blew quite # of opportunities to provide lyrics, he also blew opportunities to record the songs with better sound engineering. So many things like this exist. I think if at all we positive people, we should just enjoy the good output from him whenever that happens.

[genesis]

வள்ளி வள்ளி என வந்தான் வடிவேலந்தான்
புள்ளி வைத்து புள்ளி போட்டான் புதுக்கோலம்தான்
சொல்லித்தர சொல்லிக் கேட்டு தினமும்
சொல்லித்தந்த சிந்து பாடினான்
வள்ளி இன்ப வள்ளி என்று தினமும்
முல்லைச்சரம் கொண்டு சூடினான்

.

Great example. This is one song where IR forced his words and voice!!

[genesis]

There has always been a mismatch of skill level of other artistes working with him
I knew this was coming.


(Tip: IRs compositions were so complex and beautiful, many of the lyricists brain went numb, so IR had to write the lyrics himself!!).

[kiru]

There has always been a mismatch of skill level of other artistes working with him
I knew this was coming.


(Tip: IRs compositions were so complex and beautiful, many of the lyricists brain went numb, so IR had to write the lyrics himself!!).
I think I substantiated myself ..take it or leave it.
If you already have an opinion on this and not willing to change it, there is no point in posting here.

[venus05]

So far we have...

1. Raja spoils lot of songs by singing, he is not fit to be a singer for example all the thiruvasagam songs...
2. Raja can only compose for mettukku pattu, he spoils the songs by composing the song first
3. Raja does not have poetic sense, he spoils the song by selecting the unimaginative lyrics.. thanks for exempting bharathiyar songs and thiruvasagam..

next
in between few praising lines about one or two songs...
expect something really big after the praise...you can expect the most comtempt statements like 'seerazhikirathu' etc.,

what is next .. ..

4. Raja spoils the movie by scoring dominating BGM
5.Raja spoils th Tamil Flim Music by using unnecessarily complicated orchestration...
6. Raja spoils all the carnatic ragams by using in movies...
( be mindful and careful here..the above three are from a well known music teacher in the class of balamurali krishna et al..)

few praising words about a song...

then...
7. Raja cannot compose without basing on any ragams..he copies ragams and most of the times spoils with combining with other raagams .

8. Raja not only spoils tamil but also malayalam, kanadam and Telugu..somebody has to do something to stop this..this is disaster to all the south indian languages..
..he is against dravidians...

then few praising ..with sugar coating...

what a pattern...whether we can predicate IR's song or not...but we can predict what is next from this pattern..

wow...pleae note that all these are from a very..very.. hardcore die-hard IR fan...Raja should be very proud to have such a great objective fans... Vazhga IR pugazha..Vazhga IR fans...
Thanks.

[vel]

wow...please note that all these are from a very..very.. hardcore die-hard IR fan...Raja should be very proud to have such a great objective fans... Vazhga IR pugazha..Vazhga IR fans...Thanks.
:) Why should raja be sad or unhappy about such fans? Ivanga ellorum thalaiyila thooki vachikittu aadinaalum seri, excellent analysis panninaalum seri, or yedhavadhu arai vekaatuthanamaaga ularinaalum seri, ellamae avarukku onnu dhaan ...doesn't matter to him at all.."as said in the poda poda punnakku song line" - "enna thoothuravan, thudhikiravan enakku onnu"...

oru silarukku ingae genuine aadhangam....aanal vegu palarukku idhu neenda naal yerichal...30 varushama oru yeliya gramathaanai 'character assasination pannikitirukaanunga...The poor genious is ripped apart by media and pseudo fans in his own land...may be the 'hard core fan' tag could be part of the 'sugar coating' you have mentioned about....

[Sanjeevi]

கவிஞர் கடந்த இருபது வருடத்தில் புதிய தலைமுறையை தொடர்ந்து ஈர்த்து வந்திருக்கிறார். அந்தக் கண்ணோட்டத்தில் பார்க்கும்போது ராஜாவின் வீச்சு வைரமுத்துவின் வீச்சைக் காட்டிலும் குறைவே.


எந்த கிணத்துக்குள்ள சார் இருக்கீங்க? ஓ வைரமுத்துவோடது வா?

எனக்கு வேண்டியது இசை மட்டுமே, வரிகளுக்கு நான் முக்கியத்துவம் கொடுத்ததில்லை மற்ற இசை அமைப்பாளர்கள் பாடல்களிலும் அதை தேடியதில்லை. ஞானி, யானி மேலும் புகழ் பெற்ற சிம்பொனி இசை அமைப்பாளர்கள் எல்லாம் தனி வகை.

எனக்கு எதாவது நல்ல கவிதை வாசிக்க வேண்டும் என்று தோன்றினால் இருக்கவே இருக்கிறது 'பாரதியார் கவிதைகள்" போன்றவை என்னிடம்.

நல்ல வரிக்கு இசை தேவை இல்லை :)
நல்ல இசைக்கு வரிகள் தேவை இல்லை :D

[Sureshs65]

While I too admire Vairamuthu's lyrics and I do enjoy the wonderful work he had done with Raja and Rahman, there is certain truth in what Rajasaranam has said. One of my friend calls this 'templatization' You can almost see the sort of template that Vairamuthu uses in many songs. And given the argument that Vairamuthu's lyrics will turn around any song, why is it that other music directors have not been working with him continuously? Since the films that Venki mentions all have music by Rahman, what happened to Vairamuthu after he fell out with Rahman? And what was the movie for which he got a national award which had music by someone other than Raja or Rahman? Doesn't that prove that Vairamuthu requires a good music director to get the best out of him? Whether we like it or not, Raja has moved ahead with his music and inspite of all competition is still making music on his terms. Unfortunately after moving away from Rahman, Vairamuthu has not had a great innings. That's the truth, however bitter.

While people liberally quote words from Raja's songs, which he has not written, why do they forget that Vairamuthu also wrote 'Urvasi Urvasi'? More importantly, as a_e had argued earlier, why not quote the songs with 'great' lyrics that other MDs have consistently given. You mean 'muZhgada shippae friendshipA' is outstanding imagery? You mean 'dost bAdA dost, dostku illai vAstu' is amazing? How about 'nanbA nee oru ilavasa taxi?' or 'vAdA mapila, vazhapazha topula'? or 'kalyanam than kattikitu odipolama etc'? Compared to all the junk that comes up 'vaLLi vaLLi' sounds like outstanding literature :) So how come no other MD is blamed for downright bad lyrics in their songs while Raja is blamed for decent lyrics?

Countering what genesis says about ratio of good and bad songs, I can say that the number of songs which had downright bad and trivial lyrics was very very less when it came to Raja's songs. So if you take such horrible lyrics as a metric, you will find that Raja has done far better than the other MDs in this regard. As anyone is management knows, depending on what metrics you choose you can make something appear great or bad!!

I am not arguing that all Raja's songs have great lyrics. All I am saying is that when you choose a yardstick use it for everyone. You turn a blind eye when it comes to the current crop of MDs because the songs are 'fun', 'cool' etc and don't bother about the quite good lyrics that Muthulingam wrote in Virumandi for that story-song, or what Muthulingam wrote for Avatharam, 'thondru thotu' etc but selectively quote 'vaLLi vaLLi'.

So here is the question to you venki. Can you go ahead and quote the songs of Raja which you felt the lyricist had done a great job, especially in the post Vairamuthu period? Maybe that will be good to analyze. Try it and you may find some nice ones. And BTW, venki, how come your Tamil teacher did not mention Vairamuthu?

[genesis]

Doesn't that prove that Vairamuthu requires a good music director to get the best out of him?


There are 2 sides to any coin. Did any tamil lyricist get awrad other than VM under IR music? VM got only once for Mudhal Mariyadhai, and we know what happened.


why do they forget that Vairamuthu also wrote 'Urvasi Urvasi'?

Urvasi Urvasi is by Vaali.


You mean 'muZhgada shippae friendshipA' is outstanding imagery? You mean 'dost bAdA dost, dostku illai vAstu' is amazing? How about 'nanbA nee oru ilavasa taxi?' or 'vAdA mapila, vazhapazha topula'? or 'kalyanam than kattikitu odipolama etc'? Compared to all the junk that comes up 'vaLLi vaLLi' sounds like outstanding literature :)

This is Apples to Oranges comparison. Most of the movies irrespective of MD have couple of songs like you quoted. The point here is "valli valli" has good tune, why not complement it with good lyrics and voice? If IR wants to do only music, why even bother to add lyrics and voice?

[genesis]

what is next .. ..

4. Raja spoils the movie by scoring dominating BGM
5.Raja spoils th Tamil Flim Music by using unnecessarily complicated orchestration...
6. Raja spoils all the carnatic ragams by using in movies...
( be mindful and careful here..the above three are from a well known music teacher in the class of balamurali krishna et al..)

few praising words about a song...

then...
7. Raja cannot compose without basing on any ragams..he copies ragams and most of the times spoils with combining with other raagams .

8. Raja not only spoils tamil but also malayalam, kanadam and Telugu..somebody has to do something to stop this..this is disaster to all the south indian languages..
..he is against dravidians...
.

Never, Never... I never said anything like these. I have also not seen even IR's best critics say any thing like this. #4-6 above seems to be from some "vaitherichal" MD... it is best to ignore him.

[genesis]

நல்ல வரிக்கு இசை தேவை இல்லை :)
நல்ல இசைக்கு வரிகள் தேவை இல்லை :D

Unfortunately 90% IRs work falls neither under "symphony" nor under "kavidhai". We call them Thirai Paadal...

For me paadal is a team work.. It needs good music, good lyrics and good voice. Whatever arguments you make, by the end of the day all of the greatest Tamil film hits have a great combination of all three.

[Plum]

Damn! An innocent remark on IR's preference for colloquial has been turned into an occasion for lurking specimen to open season.
Of all the MD's in tfm history, ir is one who has deep knowledge of tamil literature and can write decent lyrics. Who else? T Rajender maybe.

What the hecj, are we to believe that arrys, rahman and co. have love for great tamil lyrics? Except for agenda cases here no one would say that.

Nadodi thendral had very good lyrics written by...well, never mind.

That IR prefers the colloquial cannot be a stick to beat him with.
Vairamuthu has mountains of mediocre vervai and meesai-asai lyrocs. Countless rahman numbers suffer from poor lyrics and poor tamil by the singer. If any one md in tn can do justice to tamil, that is IR. For that, he'd need poetry of the calibre of bharathi or thiruvasagam. If he doesn't rate current kavignars, that is his prerogative. Using this to glorify tanil-killing mds and beating Ir is ridiculous

[Sureshs65]

genesis,

That is exactly my argument. There are two sides to any coin and you are selectively seeing one side. I just posted to show that we can selectively do that with regards to Vairamuthu as well as venki has been trying to do with Raja. I don't have any great regard for the national award. How many did Kannadasan get? If you know the answer to it, you will not worry too much about national awards. My aim in that para was to show that we can have two sides to the coin and depending on who is your favourite, you can according see that side.

From whatever I know, 'Urvashi' is by Vairamuthu. Here are a couple of websites which say so.
http://www.mohankumars.com/lyrics/index.php?m=s&lid=591
http://www.shyju.com/index.php?showtopic=6822

Again I was quoting the songs against 'vaLLi vaLLi' just to show the selectivity. I mean, does no other MD have a good tune with very normal lyrics, maybe not pathetic lyrics? I am sure you can find it in every MD. I just exaggerated the comparison. What about 'Asai Asai' song or 'Un Samayal Arayil'? Very template based. Even 'kannuku mai azhagu' is so much template driven as far as lyrics are concerned. I am probably quoting some of the better songs. There are so many more songs of many MDs which have a nice melody, driven by mediocre lyrics. If we can start a thread showing how nice tunes of many MDs do not have the quality of lyrics matching the tune, that is fine. Making it out that it only happens in Raja songs is what I am against.

[Sanjeevi]

நல்ல வரிக்கு இசை தேவை இல்லை :)
நல்ல இசைக்கு வரிகள் தேவை இல்லை :D

Unfortunately 90% IRs work falls neither under "symphony" nor under "kavidhai". We call them Thirai Paadal...

For me paadal is a team work.. It needs good music, good lyrics and good voice. Whatever arguments you make, by the end of the day all of the greatest Tamil film hits have a great combination of all three.

Neenga yaarunga antha percent mudivu pannuvathu i mean 90%. Argue but do not give statistics :lol:. However you can safely tell the percent of IR+VM is greater than IR+nonVM songs. Ithu kooda illaina, Kannadasan, Vaali aduthu Vairamuthu-nu eppadi sollurathu :)

[venkkiram]

சுரேஷ்,

வீம்புக்காக பேச இங்கு வரவில்லை. ரஹ்மான இல்லாமலும், வைரமுத்து தனது கவிதையால் அடுத்த தளத்திற்கு எடுத்துச் சென்ற படங்கள், பாடல்கள் நிறைய. அவரின் வரிகள் கன்ஸிஸ்டன்ஸி எனப் பார்த்தால் என்றைக்குமே சோடை போனதில்லை. இது வைரமுத்துவிற்கு சிபாரிசு அல்ல. ராஜா போன்று அவரும் அவரது துறையில் ஒரு வித்தகர்.

என் நினைவிலிருந்து..

சிகரம், அழகன், வானமே எல்லை, செல்லமே, உள்ளம் கேட்குமே, வேதம் புதிது, ஒன்பது ரூபாய் நோட்டு, தென்றல், அமராவதி, ஆசை, மஜ்னு, அந்நியன், யூத், சாமுராய், ஷாஜஹான், துள்ளாத மனமும் துள்ளும், அமர்க்களம், இயற்கை, குஷி, பூவெல்லாம் உன் வாசம், முகவரி, நிலாவே வா,உயிரோடு உயிராக, பிரியாத வரம் வேண்டும், என்னவளே, பூமகள் ஊர்வலம், பாண்டவர் பூமி, செந்தூரப்பூவே, மொழி, பொல்லாதவன், அயன், பாடும் வானம்பாடி, ரோஜா கூட்டம், பார்த்தேன் ரசித்தேன், ஜெமினி..

கடந்த இருபது வருட ராஜாவின் இசைப்பாடல்களில் வரிகள் ரசிக்கும் படியுள்ள பாடல்களை நீங்கள் கேட்டிருக்கிறீர்கள். நாளை நிச்சயம் எழுதுகிறேன்.

[Sureshs65]

venki,

What you say fair enough and I am not doubting Vairamuthu's capacity at all and I agree that in his field he is a great man. All I am saying is that if we use the yardstick of success generally associated in the film industry, the graph of Vairamuthu is not rising. My argument was that we can conclude either way: that Raja's music output got diminished due to lack of Vairamuthu or the other way around :) The movies where Vairamuthu's lyrics are good, the music may not have been great. I don't think you blame Vairamuthu for the lack of a good tune. All I am saying is that Raja has given good music and maybe the lyrics have not been upto a great standard. Why blame Raja for that? If Raja is expected to say that he will not work with substandard lyricists, shouldn't we also expect the poets not to work with sub standard music directors or not write words for tunes they consider substandard? I guess that sort of argument will not take us anywhere. So why blame Raja for bad lyrics which he didn't write or blame Vairamuthu for a bad tune, which he didn't conceive.

There have been films like Mozhi where definitely Vairamuthu's words have reached and touched a lot of people. Whereas lot of other films you mentioned, the words probably didn't reach as wide an audience. I am sure not many from the general public would quote words from these movies as they would from say, from the songs of IR - VM or ARR-VM combination. (Don't take my word for this though. I have to confess that in many of the movies quoted by you I can hardly get through a song or two, with some exceptions. So my conclusions may be wrong.)

I am waiting for your list of songs with good lyrics. It will be nice to see that.

[vel]

சுரேஷ், கடந்த இருபது வருட ராஜாவின் இசைப்பாடல்களில் வரிகள் ரசிக்கும் படியுள்ள பாடல்களை நீங்கள் கேட்டிருக்கிறீர்கள். நாளை நிச்சயம் எழுதுகிறேன்.

suresh, enna koduma sir idhu ....unga request'kaaga avar room potu yosippaaru pola....raajavin veechu vairamuthuvin veechai vida kuraivu dhaan endru yearkanavae ivaru soopera vaai mozhindhirukiraar...adhu padichadhukkae thalaiyellam suththi mayakkam vandhiruchi ...adutha post'la enna kodumai arangera pogudho... :lol: ippavae kanna kattudhae :omg:

[sivasub]

Just digressing away from Tamil into Telugu... the situation is somewhat similar. You have excellent lyricists like Veturi and Seetharama Sastry - who can be extremely poetic at one time and pedestrian at some other time. This is true when they work with Raja or any other MD.

For ex. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPRMj7n3-JE . I am sure the lyrics elevate the tune to a greater height and adds to the overall appealing of the song. That was by Veturi for Raja.

Listen to Seetharama Sastry for KVM here... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8J8C3I5HG8&feature=related . In one word, this is out of the world.

But listen to this out of the world tune with pedestrian lyrics by Veturi (I think it gels well with the movie, though :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_Lvyizuf_Y

[Sureshs65]

Digression:

sivasub,

What you say is very true. Recently I watched a TV singing show in which a small kid sang 'manmada rasa', the Telugu version of the Tamil song with the same pallavi line. After she finished, Veturi, who was one of the judges asked her if she knew who wrote this song. When she expressed her ignorance he told her, "The joker who wrote the song is me. It is not a song that will do me proud but sometimes you need to write such songs based on what is demanded from you". I think he is pretty open about it and doesn't have any pretensions.

[Sureshs65]

One more digression :)

sivasub,

Sitarama Sastry seems to have written with the hunger of a person wanting to ensure his first outing was a success. A what a success it proved to be. The lyrics are wonderful though very tough!! You have to sometimes consult a dictionary or another scholar to get the meanings right. It is something more peculiar to Telugu I think, where there is a certain degree of difficulty in words. My friend calls it 'proudam'. You don't find that in Tamil.

[app_engine]

ok, my digression:

Since when this 'national award' thingy has become a gold standard for determining quality of "lyrics' ? :lol:

I can't believe that most (rather any) of those "judges" can appreciate poem of even one language and to expect them to compare many poems of a variety of languages and judge the best is simply expecting too much. That too by simply sitting through a few sessions where "engilees captions" are the only window (I would recommend 'kadalOrakkavidhaikaL' DVD for anyone who want to appreciate Thamizh poem with engilees sub-titles :lol: Nauseating!)

In addition, most movies with great songs / better lyrics are not even presented to the NA panel. Only a few savvy producers even take them there - i.e. those with "connections".

Please don't bring down the stature of VM by quoting NA's! He has got great credentials otherwise :-)

End-digression

[sivasub]

Thanks Suresh. In my opinion, a song has to be looked at as a project. If project plan is considered as the theme of the movie, then the situation becomes the critical path in which the task of completing of a song will be with the architect, the director, the music director - the functional expert, lyricist and choreographer - team members and of course cinematographer - documentation specialist. Any miss anywhere will have the project not being executed as per expecatations.

[sivasub]

app_engine, While what you say is true, it is equally applicable in all fields. So you cant say VM was the only who was left out. I would always consider VM equivalent to Veturi (dont pounce on me for this :) ). Both have immense talent to be wasted on insipid songs / situations / tunes. If you say VM has to get NA for all songs he has written, there may be many claimants for that

[app_engine]

sivasub,
:-)

Actually you're only supporting my point and why should I pounce on you - especially when I don't know Telugu :-) If you please read my posts in the previous pages, it'll be easy for you to see my actual bias :wink:

[genesis]

கவிஞர் கடந்த இருபது வருடத்தில் புதிய தலைமுறையை தொடர்ந்து ஈர்த்து வந்திருக்கிறார். அந்தக் கண்ணோட்டத்தில் பார்க்கும்போது ராஜாவின் வீச்சு வைரமுத்துவின் வீச்சைக் காட்டிலும் குறைவே.


எந்த கிணத்துக்குள்ள சார் இருக்கீங்க? ஓ வைரமுத்துவோடது வா?



In a way I have to agree VM's influence is more than IR's...
IR = 1976-1992 ( 16 years) - 3 National awards.
VM = 1980-2000 (20+ years) - 5 National Awards. Actually his output in Tamil was very low between 1986-1992, because of his break-up with IR. I do accept VM's work has not been that great recently.

venkkiram is not in well. You are... in IR's well. Tamilnadu, India, rest of the world moved past IR long time ago. There are few people like you still hang on to him. You listen his songs, his BGM, dig-up his rare works and enjoy every minute details in it. I do not say that is wrong. That is your choice.

But I can not accept when you insult/degrade others to praise IR. Let us see some of the statements made by people like you.


80 களின் வைரமுத்து ராஜாவின் மேற்ப்பார்வையில் இருந்த வரைக்கும் தான் அழகான மற்றும் தரமான வரிகளை கொடுக்க முடிந்தது.

This statement insults VM.


There has always been a mismatch of skill level of other artistes working with him.

This goes one step more to insult every one working with IR.


Musing more on this 'lyric' aspect, I think the degeneration started much before him, when vAli started off in a big way with his "eulogising" MGR (and KaNNadAsan's prolificity took a beating due to his personality clashes / politics and various other factors by the 70's). The more heard movie songs of 70's had no appreciable lyrics or music but political agenda on horn speakers, IMO. Forcing mEttukkudi's to go to lyrics they could not understand / appreciate much (indhi / abba-boneyM).

That way, it won't be wrong to say that IR kind of brought back attention to Thamizh lyrics once again to TN people :-) Except that save a brief association with VM, he possibly couldn't get opportunities to work with extraordinary poets.

This statement insults every poet from 1970s, just to praise IR. Why see only see MGR/Sivaji songs? What about Balachandar's movies in 1970s?


If any one md in tn can do justice to tamil, that is IR. For that, he'd need poetry of the calibre of bharathi or thiruvasagam. If he doesn't rate current kavignars, that is his prerogative.

Basically plum says IR does not respect current poets. (And that is true!!)

You are the same people who trashed, insulted, ridiculed ARR for a long time, for only one reason: He dethroned IR. Only recently, these insults have come down after Oscar. (Now, do not stamp me as ARR fan, I like every one's music.. I like IR, ARR, HJ, Deva, VS and more)

Praise IR whatever way you want, but do not insult/ridicule others.

Sanjeevi - Most of the above "you" does not refer to you, but generally refers to a group called "die-hard IR fans". This is not a personal attack on any one. If anyone feels that way, I am sorry.

[genesis]

ok, my digression:

Since when this 'national award' thingy has become a gold standard for determining quality of "lyrics' ? :lol:

I can't believe that most (rather any) of those "judges" can appreciate poem of even one language and to expect them to compare many poems of a variety of languages and judge the best is simply expecting too much. That too by simply sitting through a few sessions where "engilees captions" are the only window (I would recommend 'kadalOrakkavidhaikaL' DVD for anyone who want to appreciate Thamizh poem with engilees sub-titles :lol: Nauseating!)

In addition, most movies with great songs / better lyrics are not even presented to the NA panel. Only a few savvy producers even take them there - i.e. those with "connections".

Please don't bring down the stature of VM by quoting NA's! He has got great credentials otherwise :-)

End-digression

app_engine,

I accept NA is not the best yard stick to measure. (I just did in the previous post again :roll: ). But how can you counter absolutely impossible comments like these?


80 களின் வைரமுத்து ராஜாவின் மேற்ப்பார்வையில் இருந்த வரைக்கும் தான் அழகான மற்றும் தரமான வரிகளை கொடுக்க முடிந்தது

[app_engine]

This statement insults every poet from 1970s, just to praise IR. Why see only see MGR/Sivaji songs? What about Balachandar's movies in 1970s?


How many KB songs of 70's were in 'kOlAmbi speakers' or 'tea stalls' or such public places? Only AIR partronised some of those. There again, all weren't "great poems". ( என்னடா பொல்லாத வாழ்க்க'க்கும் 'வள்ளி வள்ளி என வந்தாளு'க்கும் என்ன பெரிய வித்தியாசம்?)

It's not just my personal opinion about the state of TFM in 70's but an acknowledged "general perception" that it was dismal. People found it "low class" to even associate themselves with Thamizh songs but preferred to be identified with indhi or abba/boneyM. Whether die-hard VM fans and others accept it or not, VM himself would not have shot into such prominence had IR not elevated TFM into a different platform.

Why, even VM had some mentoring by IR at his entry period, can he or anyone deny it? As the details of ladAi between him and IR are not known (possibly will never be open to public), I don't want to comment on either of them for breaking that alliance.

I'm not a big fan of VM's works with ARR - NA or otherwise, they just pale in comparison to the numbers he worked with IR in nativity & poetic beauty (It's possible IR-VM songs didn't have much karuththu but I don't care about karuththu biz in movie songs at all - nativity, smoothness and beauty are what I look for in poems, karuththu is optional).

[Plum]

Again, if all v.ram, g.sis want is for us to acknowledge that ir was an arrogant prick, a half talent propped up by circumstances and vm, I say let's acknowledge and stop this here.
What I find funniest is the claims on vm being more influential than ir on tn movie scene. Apparently, ir died in 1992 accorfing to g.sis. Adhukkappuram tamizh padamE parkala pola. Why argue with such a vidhandAvadhist?

[Plum]

Basically plum says IR does not respect current poets. (And that is true!!)
Hello, dont put words in my mouths-u :-)
There is a if somewhere in my statement and that means it is conditional logic. Raja doesnt respect lyricsits-nu only people who have scanned his mind can tell. Maybe you did. Maybe you have special gifts - I dont.

This arbitrary killing of Raja's career at the 1992 mark is a hallmark of certain anti-Raja campers. There has been great music from him since then - Hey Ram, GURU if you want absolute standards, and many more if you merely want "excellent". Anniyan, Youth ellAM great kavidhai-amam but IR post-1992 oNNUmE sollikaradhukku illaiyamam. And we should believe these guys are honest critics-Amam.

[P_R]

80 களின் வைரமுத்து ராஜாவின் மேற்ப்பார்வையில் இருந்த வரைக்கும் தான் அழகான மற்றும் தரமான வரிகளை கொடுக்க முடிந்தது

Ah come on. It is one thing to say that VM's best was with IR but completely another thing to say the above statement.

He has written beautiful lines for Rahman like the memorable கிழக்குச் சீமையிலே

காயப்பட்ட சொந்தத்துக்கு கண்ணீர் விட்டா
சாயம் போன வாழ்க்கையிலும் சாரம் இருக்கு
இவுக பொழப்புக்கு நீர்வார்க்க தான்
ஈசான மூலையில மேக...ம் இருக்கு

And if the colloquial-simple-beauty card is played I find it hard to look beyond:

வாசப்படி கடக்கையில வரலையே பேச்சு
பள்ளப்பட்டி தாண்டிபுட்டா பாதி உயிர் போச்சு

To claim that VM's was no good without IR is not a balanced statement at all.

btw மேற்பார்வை ??

[tvsankar]

Dear friends,
PL listen IR's new films and the lyrics.

Film - Jaganmohini

SLong - Nilavu varum neram

Whos the lyricist???

Sanga yilakiya vaarthaigal ellam
azhaga use panni,
IR composition la oru paatu..

Lyrics told the character of the period...

Tats IR...


starting lines nothing spl. edho reason irukum..

Stanza is very nice...

oru yilakiya kavidhaiku IR compose pannina madhiri.

kaatu aruvi kootai vandhu
aravanaika vandhadhae..

idharu pin varum lyircs in 2nd stanza

very nice.....

velai pola
vizhigal paaiychuma
valigal thangavilai
meendum oor prvai parthidu
very varthai ilai

comings lines are nice...

unnai seravae
mannil vaazhgiren
indha naal varai

andha purathil
undhan arugilae
sondha paravai anen
anjanagalai theetum
vizhiyilae unnai
theeti ponen
ven puravi megam polavae
ilamai konjam
varambu meeratum
manmahdan maiyinal
maiyal kodu mannava

Ingae IR in rasanai and invovement ai feel
pannugiren......

[Sureshs65]

Yes Usha. I am also quite impressed with the lyrics in JM. I had written about that when I wrote a brief review of the songs. Unfortunately, the CD is not out in Bangalore and when I checked a couple of web sites, they didn't list the lyrics. One review had mentioned Vaali, so I guess he must have written atleast one of the songs.

[Plum]

80 களின் வைரமுத்து ராஜாவின் மேற்ப்பார்வையில் இருந்த வரைக்கும் தான் அழகான மற்றும் தரமான வரிகளை கொடுக்க முடிந்தது

Ah come on. It is one thing to say that VM's best was with IR but completely another thing to say the above statement.

He has written beautiful lines for Rahman like the memorable கிழக்குச் சீமையிலே

காயப்பட்ட சொந்தத்துக்கு கண்ணீர் விட்டா
சாயம் போன வாழ்க்கையிலும் சாரம் இருக்கு
இவுக பொழப்புக்கு நீர்வார்க்க தான்
ஈசான மூலையில மேக...ம் இருக்கு

And if the colloquial-simple-beauty card is played I find it hard to look beyond:

வாசப்படி கடக்கையில வரலையே பேச்சு
பள்ளப்பட்டி தாண்டிபுட்டா பாதி உயிர் போச்சு

To claim that VM's was no good without IR is not a balanced statement at all.

btw மேற்பார்வை ??

Agree with that. This is another extreme position in this debate. I think much of IR's lyrical decisions are based on structuring his ideas musically, and fitting in words accordingly, poetic beauty be damned, although he can, if the occasion demands, do justice to great lyrics as well. If a lyricist, I'd be extremely frustrated with IR. But to use that as a stick to beat him with is unwarranted, as is happening with certain agenda-driven parties here. It is extremely laughable tos ay that VM's influence is from 1980-2000 while IR's influence on TFM was between 1976-1992. Eh? Even today, you see his influence looming like a large shadow, sometimes to the detriment of the movie in question, in the last couple of years in superhits and critically acclaimed movies.

[Sureshs65]

Agree with you PR. As Plum says the position is probably at the other end of the spectrum. Other than the song you quoted, I always feel that VM's words in 'Karuthamma' and 'Kizhaku Cheemayile' probably brought out the nativity much better than the tunes themselves. I guess app_eng position is somewhat close to what I feel. While there are songs in the Rahman-VR I like a lot for the lyrics, I would also say that the lyrics of IR-VM combination was probably much better.

[Plum]

Just heard "Melle Melle", a malayalam version of "vaLLi vaLLi". MG Srikumar has done the honours, and I'd gladly direct all detractors of IR's voice in this song to this one. I have no qualms in saying that IR's version carried more verve, enthusiasm and joy than Sreekumar's 'polished', 'technically correct' version. Sometimes, technique is over-rated(vide Sanjay Manjrekar vs Sehwag)

[equanimus]

Isn't it absurd to conclude that Vairamuthu is a greater Tamil film icon than Raaja just because he overstayed the latter? In general, the stature of all-time great music composers are much bigger than that of all-time great lyricists (with the exception of perhaps Kannadasan, whose stature might be comparable to MSV's), no?

[Plum]

equa, ange dhaan agenda irukku. From a 'mass' perspective, a good tune with bad lyrics is more likely to be succesful than vice-versa. Exceptions can be provided ofcourse but why else would you see hasili phisili dominating the charts? It takes a Kannadasan to transcend that equation, and it took an IR(with due respect to MSV) to change MGR-Sivaji songs to IR-ARR songs. (as an aside, now, I argue that this is as much to do with MSV's submissive personality as probably with the circumstances so I'd infact say that MSV's phenomenal output deserved to be recognised by the mass as MSV songs instead of Sivaji-MGR but thats the reality.)
Has Vairamuthu transcended that equation? Really, look at your Musical CD compilations in the typical music showrooms - how many Vairamuthu compilations you see as compared to IR or ARR? The answer to that should convince our friends but it won't - because they dont want to be convinced.

[Sureshs65]

Plum,

Which Malaylam movie is the 'Melle Melle' song from? Any links?

[Plum]

No, I dont know. It may even be the dubbing of Deiva Vakku. I only have the song. Rajasaranam must know as I most likely downloaded it from his account

[app_engine]

Isn't it absurd to conclude that Vairamuthu is a greater Tamil film icon than Raaja just because he overstayed the latter? In general, the stature of all-time great music composers are much bigger than that of all-time great lyricists (with the exception of perhaps Kannadasan, whose stature might be comparable to MSV's), no?

Totally agree with you!

Some more points to note:

-With the arrival of a strong MD like IR, even the hitherto unappreciated area like BGM has caught the attention of the viewers ( some are even so emphatic that this "tech expert" - BGM- competes with the "PM" - direction - for top honor for the project result) & obviously no contribution of lyricist is needed there.

-Except for a few movies for peculiarity's sake, there had not been multiple MD's asked to do any movie (S-G are considered one and not two, BTW, for remuneration). Can we say the same about kavingars? Rarely!

-Though director / producer has a say in selecting the kavingar, with the advent of IR, it's mostly MD's choice to pick a lyricist. That hasn't changed much even now (expect for one BR, who preferred a lyricist to dump the MD? Hardly any - OTOH, ARR - why even YSR - can at his will dump VM or any lyricist from a project)

[genesis]

This statement insults every poet from 1970s, just to praise IR. Why see only see MGR/Sivaji songs? What about Balachandar's movies in 1970s?


How many KB songs of 70's were in 'kOlAmbi speakers' or 'tea stalls' or such public places? Only AIR partronised some of those. There again, all weren't "great poems". ( என்னடா பொல்லாத வாழ்க்க'க்கும் 'வள்ளி வள்ளி என வந்தாளு'க்கும் என்ன பெரிய வித்தியாசம்?)

It's not just my personal opinion about the state of TFM in 70's but an acknowledged "general perception" that it was dismal. People found it "low class" to even associate themselves with Thamizh songs but preferred to be identified with indhi or abba/boneyM. Whether die-hard VM fans and others accept it or not, VM himself would not have shot into such prominence had IR not elevated TFM into a different platform.

Why, even VM had some mentoring by IR at his entry period, can he or anyone deny it? As the details of ladAi between him and IR are not known (possibly will never be open to public), I don't want to comment on either of them for breaking that alliance.

I'm not a big fan of VM's works with ARR - NA or otherwise, they just pale in comparison to the numbers he worked with IR in nativity & poetic beauty (It's possible IR-VM songs didn't have much karuththu but I don't care about karuththu biz in movie songs at all - nativity, smoothness and beauty are what I look for in poems, karuththu is optional).

When I said Balachandar movies from 1970s I had these songs in my mind...

1) Ethir Neechal
2) Adhisaya Raagam
3) Junior Junior
4) Kamban Yemaandhan
5) Dheivam thantha veedu
6) Ezhu swarangalil

You remembered "Yennada Polladha Vazhagai"? I do not think I shall pursue this debate any more.

[genesis]

This is slightly off topic.

IR has been doing some stage programs for few years now. Can any one of "IR fans" give me a video link to a VM song performed when IR is on stage?

[app_engine]

You remembered "Yennada Polladha Vazhagai"? I do not think I shall pursue this debate any more.

That was only to compare with 'vaLLi vaLLi' which was quoted as a bad example from IR's output. Also to stress the point that not all of KB film songs were high-quality lyrics and he had his share of 'இதுக்குப்போயி அலட்டிக்கலாமா's :-)

Songs you've quoted had nice lines, yes.

Just that they got overshadowed by other propaganda songs during that time period.

[kiru]

...Agree with that. This is another extreme position in this debate. I think much of IR's lyrical decisions are based on structuring his ideas musically, and fitting in words accordingly, poetic beauty be damned, although he can, if the occasion demands, do justice to great lyrics as well. If a lyricist, I'd be extremely frustrated with IR. But to use that as a stick to beat him with is unwarranted, as is happening with certain agenda-driven parties here. ...

Plum..astute observation. IR is more concerned with the "concept" than with the details...same goes for sound ..it takes a backseat.
In software terms, he gives high priority to "Design/Architecture"(backend) more than the "User interface".
We are in violent agreement that both should be there. But some people would like to use this to ..whatever..

[app_engine]

Another song which will be quite difficult to "port" - moondRAm piRai's narikkadhai :-)

Even kaNNe kalai mAnE is very custom made and one would find it extremely difficult to port into another movie / situation, despite the song belonging to a standard genre (lullaby).

While 'yEh zindagi' got shipped as 'en vAzhvilE', it would have been very difficult to move 'poongAtRu, pudhidhAnadhu' to another movie.

Only vAnengum thanga vinmeeNkaL & pon mEni uruguthE could have been easily placed in other movies as such.

BM / Kamal / IR - genius combo!

Did they do any other movie together?

[Plum]

Nari kadhai had a different tune in hindi(ek dafa ek jungal tha - pretty ordinary). It wasn't and isn't even noticed. Actually, this should give the clue that ir-bm were trying some sort of customiztion in sadma. I suspect gulzar might have had some inputs, too, and if my reading is correct, that would show ir's respect for gulzar's stature. The nari kadhai especially even sounds like tuned for gulzar's lyrics. I think you have to earn ir's respect as a lyricist. While vm deserved to earn this, I think their personal differences might have killed that relationship. This is being extended to make it sound like ir doesn't respect *any* lyricist

[Sureshs65]

Was watching the 'poonkadavE thaL thiravAi' song yesterday. In the second interlude the instruments make a bubbling type of sound and later the violins slowly build up. On screen, there heroine goes inside the water, bubbles come up and later the heroine in slow motion emerges from the water. The violins so perfectly match the scene. Here is one song where you do not know if the director explained the scene is full detail or inspired by the interlude he matched the scene perfectly. My guess is the former.

[Sarna]

Was watching the 'poonkadavE thaL thiravAi' song yesterday. In the second interlude the instruments make a bubbling type of sound and later the violins slowly build up. On screen, there heroine goes inside the water, bubbles come up and later the heroine in slow motion emerges from the water. The violins so perfectly match the scene. Here is one song where you do not know if the director explained the scene is full detail or inspired by the interlude he matched the scene perfectly. My guess is the former.

one doubt :) final touch-up'la ... i mean while bgm'ing, maaththiyirukkalaam illayaa ?

ps: ariyaa siruvan(me) thappaa pEsiyirundhaa mannichchikkonga.

[Sureshs65]

Sarna,

I doubt it because this is not something which seems added on and fits the flow of the song very well. I am not sure if they change much as far as the song is concerned in the bgm but I could be wrong. I have no clue on the recording techniques but my feeling is this song was definitely constructed fully and something was not added later.

[app_engine]

'poongathavE, thAzh thiRavAi' - I don't think there's any addition to the song for the "on-screen version". It's the same as in the record.

It's not surprising considering this is the 7th movie where IR-BR were colloborating (and perhaps the best songs in that combo ever) & their friendship / alliance etc. is not unknown here.

Personally, I don't like the picturization of 'poongathavE' (or any song of nizhalgaL - may be 'pon mAlaippozhudhu' isn't too bad but other two were poor IMO).

[Sureshs65]

Was listening to 'vanitAmaNI' from Vikram. I noticed that in the first charanam, after the first two lines, when Janaki starts sings 'idhayam thathom' the percussion instruments cease playing!!! The guitars play in the background and almost simulate the heartbeat. The charanam then proceeds without any percussion instruments backing it, only the guitar backs the charanam throughout. The second charanam though has the drums playing along. Any clue on what happens onscreen that made Raja do this? Or did he orchestrate for 'idayam thathom' part? It has been a long time since I watched this movie. I had to rewind the tape a couple of times to be sure that there no percussion instrument playing!!! The song flows so well that you don't realize it!!

BTW, for those who are missing the Raja of 'vanitAmaNI' I suggest you listen to 'nilavu varun nEram' from JM. He is still as youthful as he was when he gave music for Vikram. It is just that many of us refuse to come out of the 80s!!

[sivasub]

It is true and it has been bothering me for sometime now. Even I find it intriguing that each time I tried identifying the exact point when it stopped, the flow of the song was such that I never could exactly identify when the percussions stop.

In fact there is another song.. and it is only coincidental that it stars Kamal again. This time the song is the evergreen 'Idhayil kadhai ezhudhum' from unnal mudiyum thambi. Try to follow the rhythm in the chararam... when the songs go to its peak in the charanam, at some point the percussions stop suddenly and you hear only Chitra (or SPB) singing... interesting!!!

[Sureshs65]

sivasub,

Coincidentally I saw another song on TV yesterday which had similar characteristics. It was the 'mANkuyilE' song from 'Karagatakaran'. Towards the end of the charanam the percussion stops and the beat is provided by keyboard/guitar. The backing is totally western here but the song being sung is Tamil folk. Not for a minute do you feel the absence of percussion instruments nor for a minute do you feel this is anything other than a folk song. Raja is the master weaver who can weave so many threads together and come up with a unified design.

[SVN]

Song picturization is to Bharatiraja what aesthetic art direction is to T. Rajendar, is what acting is to Abbas... They just ain't made for each other.

[app_engine]

It was the 'mANkuyilE' song from 'Karagatakaran'. Towards the end of the charanam the percussion stops and the beat is provided by keyboard/guitar. The backing is totally western here but the song being sung is Tamil folk.

Yes, classic!

And it fits the ongoings on the screen well (karagAttam & the maiyyal between hero / heroine intertwined interestingly)

[app_engine]

Song picturization is to Bharatiraja what aesthetic art direction is to T. Rajendar, is what acting is to Abbas... They just ain't made for each other.

அப்படி ஒட்டு மொத்தமா சொல்லிட முடியாதுங்க. மிக அருமையாக எடுக்கப்பட்டவையும் உண்டு (முதல் மரியாதை, 16 வயதினிலே, டிக் டிக் டிக், ஒரு கைதியின் டைரி, கடலோரக்கவிதைகள்)

[Sureshs65]

SVN,

I would probably take the middle path. I don't think Barathiraja is so bad as TR or Abbas. They are in a league of their own :). Given that he was given some of the best music by Raja, it is obviously a challenge to rise upto that. There have been others who have been even worse and in some movies the picturization has been decent, as app_eng has mentioned.

[genesis]

அப்படி ஒட்டு மொத்தமா சொல்லிட முடியாதுங்க. மிக அருமையாக எடுக்கப்பட்டவையும் உண்டு (முதல் மரியாதை, 16 வயதினிலே, டிக் டிக் டிக், ஒரு கைதியின் டைரி, கடலோரக்கவிதைகள்)

I would like add "காதல் ஓவியம்" to this list... (Best semi-classical album ever by IR)

[app_engine]

I've immensely enjoyed the picturization of the following songs by BR :

-sendhoorappoovE
-manjakkuLichchu aLLi mudichchu
-Attukkutti muttai ittu
-poongAtRu thirumbumA
-all the kuttikkutti songs of MM
-vetti vEru vAsam
-idhu oru nilAkkAlam (style followed by many today but without the aesthetics)
-poo malarndhida nadamidum pon mayilE
-adi AththAdee
-kodiyilE malligaippoo
-pOguthE pOguthE
-ABC nee vAsi
-pon mAnE, kObam Eno

These are just from 4 films that I mentioned earlier, there may be many others as well ( I quickly remember 'vizhiyil vizhundhu', sweet song nicely done on-screen as well, also 'arisi kuththum akkA makaLE' - rustic and funny).

Basically, whenever he mended the songs with the movie's storyline, they could be enjoyed. Obviously 'kanavu scenes' with 'veLLai dEvadhaikaL' etc are his weakest area, but when he got a song firmly placed in the movie's flow, he's a winner.

One of the few directors who can take us into the story's environment during the songs nicely. To my knowledge, the scenes that one see in 'manjakkuLichchu' were first-of-its-kind for TF.

[SVN]

Yes, I agree that some of BR's songs have been pretty well presented (whenever there was a certain level of realism, I think they were good). I guess I was dwelling on his worst song picturisations, while writing that comment. On hind sight, the Abbas T Rajender comparison was a bit too much ;)

[Sureshs65]

SVN,

I guess Abbas and TR would have been upset with you for usurping their position :D

[Sureshs65]

SVN,

I guess Abbas and TR would have been upset with you for usurping their position and giving it to BR :D

[C2]

Tunes of IR has been used in Hindi movies not only By the maestro
himself , but some of the MDs have even copied his tunes. For
example, the song "KOYAL SI TERI BOLI" in the Hindi movie "Beta" was an utter copy of "Kondai cheval koovum neram".
IR s tunes were used even in the movie "Cheeni Kum" of Amitabhji,music by IR himself. In this movie, he has used the tune of the song "Mandram vandha thendralukku" in happy moods and situations. Here also the tune fits well, while in the original "Mouna
Ragam" the tune works out as a pathos ,while the hero is worried and in a sad mood. That is the brilliance of the one and only ILAYARAJA.

[app_engine]

Tunes of IR has been used in Hindi movies not only By the maestro
himself , but some of the MDs have even copied his tunes. For
example, the song "KOYAL SI TERI BOLI" in the Hindi movie "Beta" was an utter copy of "Kondai cheval koovum neram".


The original was not by IR. It was MD'ed by K Bhagyaraj (possibly assisted by S-G in orchestration)

[Plum]

I think S-G did it officially.
Anyway, here is another to add to your theory of "Vairamuthu's contribution to applying Science in TAmil lyrics", a_e:
"thanneerukkum manneNNaikkum kalyaNamAm saami"
- to imply a incompatible match. This time, not a bad comparison, one would think.

[venkkiram]

சாருவின் சமீபத்திய கட்டுரை "தமிழ் சினிமா பாடல்கள்: ஒரு பண்பாட்டு வீழ்ச்சியின் அடையாளம்" என்பதிலிருந்து..

"இளையராஜாவின் மகத்தான வெற்றிக்கு ஒரு முக்கியமான காரணம், வைரமுத்து. "

இந்த விஷயத்தில் எப்படியோ நானும் சாருவும் ஒரே அலைநீளத்தில் பயணிக்கிறோம் என்றே தோன்றுகிறது..

பாராட்டுக்கள் சாரு.

[app_engine]

Absolutely idiotic statement!

If one walks through the best 1000 songs of IR, the % penned by VM won't go beyond single digit. It's a fact that there has to be a lyricist for a movie song and VM happens to be better of the lot after Kannadasan. It doesn't mean a brilliant composer has to have the same one to taste success.

IMVSO, IR could have done better globally if he moved away from cinema and did pure instrumentals!

I don't know what's Charu's problem with IR. It seems there's no end to his vomitting :-(

[venkkiram]

இசையமைப்பாளர்கள் வந்துகொண்டே இருக்கிறார்கள். ஆனால் எப்படி ராஜா அப்படி நுழைந்து ஒரு வரலாறாக மாறியிருக்கிறாரோ அதே போல கவிஞர்கள் எல்லாம் எழுதிக்கொண்டிருக்க, வைரமுத்து வரவும் தமிழ்த் திரைப்பட உலகில் ஒரு வரலாறுதான்.

மற்ற இசையமைப்பாளர்களின் இசைகளுக்கு மத்தியில் ராஜாவின் இசையை எப்படி தனியான ஒரு விஷயமாக பிரத்யேகமாக அணுகுகிறோமோ அதுபோல, வைரமுத்துவின் பாடல் வரிகளையும் அணுகித்தான் தீரவேண்டும்.

ராஜாவின் காலத்திற்கு வரும்போது வைரமுத்துவை ஒப்பிடுவதே சாலச் சிறந்தது. கண்ணதாசன் மூத்தவர். அவரின் பெரும்பாலான பாடல்கள் ராஜாவிற்கு முந்தைய காலத்தில் எழுதப்பட்டுள்ளதால் கண்ணதாசனை ராஜாவின் காலத்திற்கு முந்தைய இசையமைப்பாளர்களோடு இணைத்து ஒப்பிடுவதே சரியாக இருக்கும். அதைவிட்டு, ராஜாவின் இசைக்காலத்திலும் கவியரசை விடாமல் பிடித்துக்கொண்டிருப்பது சரியான அணுகுமுறை அல்ல.

ராஜாவின் இசை எப்படி ஆத்மார்த்தமாக இருக்கிறதோ, அதுபோல வைரமுத்துவின் பாடல் வரிகளும்.

சாரு இந்த விஷயத்தில் சரியாகவே கணித்திருப்பதாகத் தோன்றுகிறது.

பொத்தாம்பொதுவாக " Absolutely idiotic statement!" எனச் சொல்வதை பெரிதாக எடுத்துக்கொள்ளாமல் ராஜாவின் மீதிருக்கும் அதீதப் பற்றினாலேயே எனப் புரிந்து கொண்டு நடையை கட்டலாம்.

[tvsankar]

IR - Vairamuthu

IR - Vaira muthuvai evvalavu kashta pattu
kavidhai ezhudha vaithu irupar enru enaku
purigiradhu..

Kadhal padal enralum - Iyarkai - Varnanai enru
neraiya kashta paduthi irukirar Vairamuthu.

IR ku - Characterisation velipadanam padal varigalil...

IR in miga kadumaiyana muyarchiyil dhan
VAiramuthu vin kavidhaigal - IR padalil
Oligiradhu..

Even now,
New Lyricist with IR - Kavidhaigal nanraga irukiradhu..
Karanam - IR ai thavira veru edhuvum ilai.

[tvsankar]

Oru Kavinyanin Kavidhaiyai
Kaetka vaikum Nalla ennam - Music Director
kaiyil dhan irukiradhu.

Indha vishayathil - IR - Vairamuthuku
Dhrogam seiyavillai.

Vaira muthu vin kavidhaiyai puriyum padi
Isaiyin Oli alavai - Nyayamaga payan paduthiya
oru Nalla manidhar.. Ialaiya Raaja....

Kavidhaiku kashta paduthi irundhalum - Arumai puriyum padi
isai amaitha oru Music Director - IR.
hahahhaha.....

kazhudhaiku theriyuma karpoora vasanai.......

[tvsankar]

Venki ram,
you and Chaaru - both are too good.

IR ai patri -Engalai nalla vidhamaga sindhika vaikum
nalla athmakal..

Chaaru kitayum sollunga.

indha madhiri ularalai elam thodaranam nu......

Vaazhaga ungal thondu...

[disk.box]

இளையராஜாவும் வைரமுத்துவும் அவரவர் துறைகளில் முத்திரை பதித்தவர்கள்.

இருவருமே அதீத திறமைசாலிகள். இவரால்தான் மற்றொருவருக்கு வெற்றி சாத்தியம் என்பது வேடிக்கையான கூற்று.

எண்பதுகளுக்கு முன்பே இளையராஜா திரையிசையில் முத்திரை பதித்துவிட்டார். கண்ணதாசன்,புலமைப்பித்தன்,பஞ்சு அருணாசலம் போன்றவர்கள்தான் அதற்குக் காரணம் என்றெல்லாம் வகைபிரித்தல் இசைக்கலைஞனுக்கு செய்யும் உச்சபட்ச துரோகமாக இருக்கும்.

ஷங்கர்-கணேஷ்,சந்திரபோஸ் போன்ற சமகால இசையமைப்பாளர்களுக்கும் வைரமுத்து பாடல்கள் எழுதி ரஸிக்கவைத்திருக்கிறார். எந்த இசையமைப்பாளருக்கு எழுதினாலும் கேட்கும்போதே இது வைரமுத்துவின் பாடல் என கண்டுபிடித்துவிடுமளவு திறமையான சொல்லாக்கம் கொண்ட படைப்பாளி.

திறமைசாலிகளுக்குக் கதவுகள் தாமாகவே திறந்துகொள்கின்றன.

பிரபலங்களைக் குறித்து மாற்றுக் கருத்துகள் கூறியே கவனஈர்ப்பினை தனதாக்கிக்கொள்ள முயல்வோரின் வாதம் இது.

[venkkiram]

முதலாவதாக "Absolutely idiotic statement! "

இரண்டாவதாக "கழுதைக்கு தெரியுமா கற்பூர வாசனை"

இன்னும் என்னென்ன வார்த்தைகளை கொட்டப் போகிறார்களோ தெரியவில்லை.

அய்யா டிவிஷங்கர்,

ஒரு நல்ல இசையின், இசை வாத்தியங்களின் மூலக்கூறுகளை அலசுவதில் நீங்கள் நிபுணத்துவம் பெற்றிருக்கலாம். அதுபோலவே சாருவும் ஏதோ தனக்குத் தெரிந்த தமிழ் எழுத்துக்களில் கொஞ்சம் நிபூணத்துவம் பெற்றிருக்கிறார். நீங்கள் ராஜாவின் இசையமைப்பை எப்படி அணுகுகிறீர்களோ அதுபோல அவரும் ராஜாவின் இசையில் வரும் பாடல் வரிகளை அணுகி அதில் வைரமுத்துவின் பங்கினை பெருமைப் படச் சொல்லியிருக்கிறார்.

இதில் கழுதைக்குத் தெரியுமா? குரங்கிற்குத் தெரியுமா என மனக் காழ்ப்புகளை கொட்டுவதில் பிரயோசனம் இல்லை.

குப்தர்களின் ஆட்சியை நம் வரலாற்று பாடப் புத்தகத்தில் இந்தியர்களின் பொற்காலம் என்று படிப்பதில்லையா? அதுபோலவே ராஜாவின் இசைப் பயணத்தில் வைரமுத்தோடு இருந்த காலங்கள் ஒரு பொற்காலம். இதில் எனக்கு முழு உடன்பாடு உண்டு.

இதே கருத்தை சாரு வழிமொழிந்ததினாலேயே நான் அவரோடு ஒத்துப் போகிறேன் எனச் சொல்லியிருந்தேன்.

மறுபடியும் சாருவின் வார்த்தைகளை வாசியுங்கள்.

"இளையராஜாவின் மகத்தான வெற்றிக்கு ஒரு முக்கியமான காரணம், வைரமுத்து."

பல முக்கிய காரணங்கள் இருக்கும்போது அதில் ஒன்றாக வைரமுத்து இருந்திருக்கிறார் என்பதாலேயே "ஒரு" என்ற வார்த்தையை உபயோகப் படுத்தி இருக்கிறார்.

[tvsankar]

venkiram,
naan tvsankar id la dhan iruken. am Usha Sankar.
call me as Usha Sankar. NO issues.

[venkkiram]

மன்னிக்கவும். நான் இந்தத் தளத்திற்கு மிகவும் புதுசு. நதிமூலம் அவ்வளவாக தெரியாது. உங்கள் விருப்பபடி இனி "உஷா ஷங்கர்" என்றே அழைக்கிறேன்.

[tvsankar]

kaazhpunarichi ilai venkiram.

Personal attack. hahaha.

Chaaru - IR ai anegama - Personal attack dhan seigirar.

so - Personal attack - enbadhai unarthinen.
thats all.

Personal attack - Enaku pidikadha vishayam.

vimarsanam enra peyaril - idam irukiradhae
enra oru seyalil

avar kooruvaradhai - inga - IR ku ena irukum
indha idathil kaekta pidkavilai venkiram.
Tats all.
end dig.

[venkkiram]

இளையராஜாவும் வைரமுத்துவும் அவரவர் துறைகளில் முத்திரை பதித்தவர்கள்.

இருவருமே அதீத திறமைசாலிகள்.

எந்த இசையமைப்பாளருக்கு எழுதினாலும் கேட்கும்போதே இது வைரமுத்துவின் பாடல் என கண்டுபிடித்துவிடுமளவு திறமையான சொல்லாக்கம் கொண்ட படைப்பாளி.

திறமைசாலிகளுக்குக் கதவுகள் தாமாகவே திறந்துகொள்கின்றன.

--

நல்ல கருத்துக்கள். உங்களோடு ஒத்துப் போகிறேன் திரு disk.box

[kiru]

When we listen to a song, we cannot say we just enjoy the music and not the lyrics if you know the language. That way, the success of the song is contributed by lyrics as well. And hence, vairamuthu should share the in the glory of the success and not just IR. But I have a feeling that people like Charu are trying to discredit IR at every opportunity. And also, my guess is, vairamuthu also has the same attitude, that he is the MAIN contributor to the success of the song. Since IR and him share similar age/backgrounds this must have irked IR. and the rift. I dont think this bothers Rahman as he treats vairamuthu as an elder (and moreover he earns way too much to be bothered by the ego of a crazy poet :-) )

[Sureshs65]

Venki,

Welcome back. Been a long time :) Not surprising you come back along with Vairamuthu :)

As you say 'One of the reasons for Raja's success is Vairamuthu.' If it is _one_ of the reasons, why argue? Let us accept it.

I really don't have neither the inclination nor patience to go and read what Charu has written. Since you seem to have read the article, tell me something. Did he also mention that Vairamuthu was one of the or one of the most important reasons for Rahman's early success. If he has, then I would consider that the article was written in good faith. If not, yup, Charu has an agenda against IR and whatever he says guys like me will take with a pinch of salt. Let me know if you read some lines about Vairamuthu contributing to Rahman's success in Charu's article.

[irir123]

IMHO - lyrics today have ceased to have any value as the no of ppl who give credence to lyrics is dwindling - maybe there are some in the rural areas and few other ppl like hubbers - so good/bad lyrics do not have relevance if the film lacks a strong character-based script

having said that, am sure IR takes special care for lyrical quality if the film does warrant it - no doubt VM is talented and his lyrics added value to IR's music, which wud have survived even if some other lyricists wrote - but the 80s, 90s have seen a steady decline in overall quality of lyrics - am not a big fan of 'panttukku zip azhaghu' kind of neo-pudhu kavidhais either

[venkkiram]

திரு சுரேஷ்,

வணக்கம்.

ரஹ்மானின் தமிழிசைப்பாடல்களில் தொண்ணூறு சதவீதம் வைரமுத்துவே வியாபித்திருக்கிறார். அதனால் சாரு அதை குறிப்பிட்டு சொல்லித்தான் ஆகவேண்டும் எனத் தேவையில்லை என்பது என் பார்வை. ரஹ்மானின் வெற்றிக்கு வைரமுத்து இன்றியமையாத காரணிகளுள் முதன்மையாக வருபவர். அதில் மாற்றுக்கருத்தே இருக்கமுடியாது. சாரு அந்தக் கட்டுரையில் வைரமுத்து - ரஹ்மான் கூட்டணியில் வந்த இருவர் படப் பாடல்களை சமீபக் காலங்களில் சிறந்தவையாக பதிவு செய்கிறார்.

அது கிடக்க.

சுரேஷ்,

ராஜா-வைரமுத்து கூட்டணியில் வந்த பாடல்களில் உங்களுக்கு பிடித்த பாடல் வரிகளை எழுதுங்களேன்!

[baroque]

we were listening to Zillion musicals while driving this afternoon..:)
let me post three compositions from the list!

வானெங்கும் தங்க விண்மீன்கள் விழியிமை மூட
சூரியன் வந்து கடல் குளித்தேறும் நேரம்.....
வைரமுத்து
Lover boy rocks!
ஜானு Rules!
இளையராஜா treasures! :musicsmile:

வசந்தங்கள் வாழ்த்தும் பொழுது
உனது கிளையில் பூவாவேன்
இலையுதிர்காலம் முழுதும்
மகிழுந்து உனக்கு வேராவேன்

ஆஹா ... my all time favorite
ஜோடி நதிகள் பாதை விலகி சேர்ந்தன கதை பேசின ...... :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muKJ2np0oBs
:ty:
வினதா.

[venkkiram]

வசந்தங்கள் வாழ்த்தும் பொழுது
உனது கிளையில் பூவாவேன்
இலையுதிர்காலம் முழுதும்
மகிழுந்து உனக்கு வேராவேன்

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இந்த வரிகளை ஜானகி தேனாக குழைத்து பாடும்போது ஆர்ப்பரிக்கும் உணர்ச்சிகள் மனதை வருடும்.

[venkkiram]

இந்த நூற்றாண்டின் தலைசிறந்த படங்களில் ஒன்றான முதல் மரியாதையில் வரும் அத்தனை பாடல்களும் காதில் தேன் வந்து பாயும் கீதங்கள்.

1) பூங்காற்று திரும்புமா பாடல்

சிவாஜி, ராதா ஏற்றிருக்கும் பாத்திரங்களின் மன உணர்ச்சிகளை அப்படியே வார்த்தைகளால் வடித்திருக்கும் விதம் பாராட்டுதலுக்குரியது. ராஜாவின் டூயட் பாடல்களில் ஆண் குரல், பெண் குரல் அடிக்கடி மாறி மாறி வலம் வரும். ஒவ்வொரு குரலிலும் பாடப் படும் இரண்டடி வார்த்தைகளில் கிராமிய மணத்தோடு, தனது ஆளுமையையும் நிலை நாட்டவேண்டும். கிரிக்கட்டில் வரும் பந்துகளையெல்லாம் நான்குக்கும், ஆறுக்கும் விளாசுவதுபோல கவிஞர் தனது திறமையை சரிவர பயன்படுத்தியிருப்பார்.

பல்லவியில்

சிவாஜி பாடும் வரிகளில்..

பாராட்ட, மடியில் வச்சி தாலாட்ட
எனக்கொரு தாய்மடி கிடைக்குமா!

ராதா பாடும் வரிகளில் ஆறுதல் வார்த்தைகள்..

ஆகாயம் சுருங்குமா!
ஏங்காதே ! அதை உலகம் தாங்காதே!
அடுக்குமா ! சூரியன் கருக்குமா !

முதல் சரணத்தில்
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சிவாஜி :

என்ன சொல்லுவேன் ! என் உள்ளம் தாங்கல !
மெத்தை வாங்குனேன் தூக்கத்தை வாங்கல !

ராதா

இந்த வேதன யாருக்குத்தான் இல்ல
உன்னை மீறவே ஊருக்குள் ஆளில்ல!

இரண்டாவது சரணத்தில் :
---------------------------

உள்ள அழுகுறேன் வெளியே சிரிக்கிறேன்
நல்ல வேஷந்தான் வெளுத்து வாங்குறேன்

ராதா :

உங்க வேஷந்தான் கொஞ்சம் மாறனும்
எங்க சாமிக்கு மகுடம் ஏறனும்!

அதுவரைக்கும் யார் தனக்கு எசப்பாட்டு பாடுகிறார் என ஆவலுடன் தேடி வந்து கடைசியில் ராதா எனத் உணர்ந்து மகிழ்ச்சி ரேகைகள் ஓடும்போது, "பாராட்ட, மடியில் வச்சித் தாலாட்ட எனக்கொரு தாய்மடி கிடைக்குமா!" என்ற அதே சோகமான பல்லவி வரிகளை கவிஞர் பொருத்தமாக மாற்றியிருப்பார்.

ஆத்தாடி, மனசுக்குள்ள காத்தாடி!
பறந்ததே ! உலகமே மறந்ததே !

[baroque]

:musicsmile: :musicsmile: :musicsmile: :clap:

ஆத்துக்குள்ள நேத்து உன்ன நெனச்சேன் வெக்க நிறம் போக மஞ்ச குளிச்சேன் ....

அழைப்பு மணி எந்த வீட்டில் கேட்டாலும்
ஓடி நான் வந்து பார்ப்பேன்
தென்றல் என் வாசல் தீண்டவே இல்லை
கண்ணில் வெந்நீரை வார்ப்பேன்
கண்களும் ஓய்ந்தது
ஜீவனும் தேய்ந்தது ... இளையராஜா -சித்ரா melancholy

நான் உறங்கும் நாள் வேண்டும் ....... சாய்ந்துகொள்ள தோள் வேண்டும்
நான் உறங்கும் நாள் வேண்டும் ....... சாய்ந்துகொள்ள தோள் வேண்டும்
என் கண்ணில் நீர் வேண்டும் .. .....சுகமாக அழ வேண்டும்
இளையராஜா ,வைரமுத்து ,பாலா ,ஜானு melancholy.
கண்ணில் என்ன கார்காலம்

கோவிலுக்கு போகப்போறோம் now, let me grab some ultimate சங்கீதம் with chaste lyrics for our drive. :)
இசை மேடையில் இன்ப வேளையில் சுக ராகம் பொழியும்
இளமை நெருக்கம் இருந்தும் தயக்கம் ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6S0e3spswQ

romance romance romance in the air! :bluejump:
taa...ta.
வினதா. :)

[venkkiram]

2) வெட்டி வேரு வாசம்..

இந்தப் பாடலும் ஆண், பெண் குரலில் கருத்துப் பரிமாற்றங்கள் செய்துகொள்ளும் ஒருவகை டூயட் தான். ஆனால் மற்ற கோடானுக்கோடி பாடல்கள் போல பத்தோடு ஒன்று பதினொன்றாக இல்லாமல், படத்தின் கதையோட்டத்திற்கு இணைகொடுத்து வரிகளை தொடுத்திருக்கிறார் வைரமுத்து.

இந்தப் பாடலுக்கு முன்புவரை தீபக்-ரஞ்சனியின் காதலை சிவாஜி முழுவதும் எதிர்த்து நிற்பார். ராதாவின் அறிவுரையின் படி, மனமிறங்கி அந்த இளஞ்சோடியை சேர்த்து வைக்க மனசு மாறியிருப்பார்.

பாடல் முழுதும் தீபக்-ரஞ்சனியின் திருமண - காதல் காட்சிகள், சிவாஜி-ராதா உரையாடல்கள், சிவாஜி, ராதா இருவரும் தனித்தனியே நினைத்துப் பார்ப்பது, ஊர் சனம் என ஒரு காட்சிக் கதம்பமாகவே தொகுக்கப் பட்டிருக்கும்.

பல்லவி:

ஆண்குரல் : பூவுக்கு வாசம் உண்டு ! பூமிக்கும் வாசம் உண்டு !
பெண்குரல் : வேருக்கு வாசம் வந்ததுண்டோ!

முதல் சரணம்:

ஆண்குரல் : பச்சக் கிளியோ தொட்டுக்கிருச்சு, இச்சக் கிளியோ ஒத்துக்கிருச்சு!
பெண்குரல் : உச்ச நெருப்பு தொட்டுக்கிருச்சு! பச்ச மனசு பத்திக்கிருச்சு!
ஆண்குரல் : கையை கட்டி நிக்கச் சொன்னா, காட்டுவெள்ளம் நிக்காது
பெண்குரல் : காதல் மட்டும் கூடாதுன்னா, பூமி இங்கு சுத்தாது!
ஆண்குரல் : சாமிகிட்ட கேளு, யாருபோட்ட கோடு!
பெண்குரல் : பஞ்சுக்குள்ள தீய வச்சி பொத்தி வச்சவுக யாரு!

இரண்டாவது சரணம்:

பெண்குரல் : உன்னக் கண்டு நான் சொக்கி நிக்கிறேன் கண்ணுக்குள்ள நான் கன்னி வைக்கிறேன்!
ஆண்குரல் : சொல்லாமத் தான் தத்தளிக்கிறேன் தாளாமத் தான் தள்ளி நிக்கிறேன்
பெண்குரல் : பாசமுள்ள தர்மம் இத பாவமின்னு சொல்லாது
ஆண்குரல் : குருவி கட்டும் கூட்டுக்குள்ள குண்டு வைக்கக் கூடாது
பெண்குரல் : புத்திகெட்ட தேசம், பொடிவச்சி பேசும்
ஆண்குரல் : சாதி மத பேதமெல்லாம், முன்னவங்க செஞ்ச மோசம்

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கையை கட்டி நிக்கச் சொன்னா, காட்டுவெள்ளம் நிக்காது
காதல் மட்டும் கூடாதுன்னா, பூமி இங்கு சுத்தாது!
புத்திகெட்ட தேசம், பொடிவச்சி பேசும்
சாதி மத பேதமெல்லாம், முன்னவங்க செஞ்ச மோசம்

மேற்கண்ட வரிகள் எனக்கு மிகவும் பிடித்தது.

இதுபோன்ற இடங்களில் கவிஞர் பாடல் வரிகளின் தரத்தை உயரத்திற்கு எடுத்துச் சென்றிருக்கிறார் என்றால் அது மிகையாகாது.

[Plum]

Pantukku zip azhagu

:rotfl3:

Venkikram, if you want to bash I, I hope next time you can think of your own thoughts and words - atleast that way we can applaud you for originality. Ipdi charu pinnAla oLinjirundhu thAkkum
BishenSingh-thanam is :lol:

We all know charu's site. If we wanted to know charu's opinion, we'll sure go there and read it. If you have original thoughts bashing IR, looking forward to it. That way we'll know where you stand - above or below charu.

[Sureshs65]

venki,

That is exactly my point. When you agree that Vairamuthu's contribution to Rahman's initial success is high, why did Charu not make the quote as, "Vairamuthu was one of the reason's for Rahman's success."? His biad clearly shows through.

(BTW, I found time to read Charu's blog post and I am surprised that you quote him and bring along for your support. For in that article he says that for Azhagiya Tamil Magan Rahman has scored great music and Muthukumar spoils it with his lyrics. He laments why these guys bring down the quality of music. He wants you to believe that Muthukumar can dictate terms with Rahman :lol: This is in contrast to your own stand that whenever the lyrics are below par in Raja's music it is Raja's fault and not the lyricist. Anyway, as Plum says, you are more than welcome to post your own views and I think they will get more respect here than Charu's view, unless your objective is to show a red flag to the bull:)

I can say that while Vairamuthu did contribute to Raja's success there are many other claimants who have stronger ground to make that claim. SPB, Janaki, KJY, Chitra, Vaali etc for they worked together with Raja in many more movies than Vairamuthu and have given timeless classics without the aid of Vairamuthu.

I like a lot of songs in the Raja Vairamuthu combination, starting from the very first song,'Pon Malai Pazhudu' through 'Andhi Mazhai', 'Pani vizhum Malar Vanam', the songs of Mudhal Mariyadai which you quote. My current favorite is what Vinitha has quote, "Poove Poochooda Vaa."

[Sanjeevi]

Chaaru's Pon mozhigal

1. நான் கடவுள் பட BGM ரொமான்டிக் சீன் BGM மாதிரி இருக்கு (in pathos scene)

2. திருவாசகம் இசை ஜூராஸிக் பார்க் படத்துல வர்ற டைனசருக்கு போட்ட மியூசிக் மாதிரி இருக்கு (இது ஞானி சொன்னதா? அப்படினா சாரு அதை வழி மொழிந்தவர்)

Venkiram,
இதற்கு உங்க ஆதரவு அமோகமா இல்ல கமுக்கமா


அப்புறம் நான் இதுவரை ராஜா பாடல்களில் மட்டும் அல்ல பொதுவாக சினிமா பாடல்களில் வரிகள் எனக்கு இரண்டாம் பட்சம் தான். எனக்கு ராஜாவோட ludes மட்டும் போதும். அதற்கும் வைரமுத்து கவிஞரா இல்லைனால் ராஜாவோட மூளை கம்மியாக வேலை செய்யும் என்று யாரவது சொல்லிடுங்கப்பா :P

[venkkiram]

திரு சஞ்சீவி,

ஒருத்தர் உதிர்த்த வார்த்தைகளை அப்படியேவா நான் உள்வாங்கிக் கொள்கிறோம்? இல்லையே. ஒருவர் உதிர்க்கும் வார்த்தைகளின் பொருளை தாமும் உணர்ந்துகொள்ள நேரிடும்போது அந்த வார்த்தைகளின் நிறம் புரிந்து, அது தம் கருத்தொடு ஒத்துவரும் பட்சத்திலேயே ஒரு கருத்தை ஆமோதிக்கிறோம்.

இப்போ ராஜாவையே எடுத்துக்கொள்வோம். ஒரு முறை அல்ல, பல முறை கண்ணதாசன் போல ஒரு கவிஞர் இன்னும் பிறக்கவில்லை, பாடலுக்கு கவிதை எழுதுவது அவரோடு முடிந்துவிட்டது என்றேல்லாம் பேசி யிருக்கிறார்.

மறுபுறம் கண்ணதாசன் பாடல்கள் கோலோச்சி இருந்த காலகட்டத்தில் வாழ்ந்து அனுபவித்த சிவாஜி கணேசன் ஒரு விழாவில் வைரமுத்துவைப் பற்றி பேசும் போது "நீ கண்ணதாசனையே மிஞ்சி விட்டாய்" என புகழாரம் சூட்டியிருக்கிறார்.

நமக்கு எது ஒத்துப் போகிறது என்பதை பொறுத்து நாம் ஒருவர் கருத்துக்களை ஆமோதிக்கிறோம். சிவாஜியின் கருத்தையோ, ராஜாவின் கருத்தையோ பிடிக்காமல் போகும் பட்சத்திலும், ஒருவர் சிவாஜி நடிப்பினையும், ராஜாவின் இசையையும் ரசிக்கலாம். நாளைக்கே ஜெயமோகன் ஒரு கட்டுரையில் ராஜாவைப் பற்றி கடுமையாக விமர்சித்தாலும் நீங்கள் தொடர்ந்து "அகிம்சை" என்ற அவரது கட்டுரையின் சுட்டியை உங்கள் மடலுக்கு அடியில் பதிவு செய்வீர்கள் என நம்புகிறேன் :)

ஞானி, சாரு சொல்லித்தான் ராஜா பற்றிய ஒரு விஷயத்தை உள்வாங்கவேண்டும் என்ற அவசியம் எனக்கு என்றுமே இருந்ததில்லை. நீங்கள் சொல்லியிருந்த இரு கருத்துக்களுக்கும் எனக்கு உடன்பாடு கிடையாது. இருவருமே பத்தி எழுத்தாளர்கள். சில, பல நேரங்களில் இவர்கள் சொல்லுவதோடு ஒத்துப் போகிறது.

"அப்புறம் நான் இதுவரை ராஜா பாடல்களில் மட்டும் அல்ல பொதுவாக சினிமா பாடல்களில் வரிகள் எனக்கு இரண்டாம் பட்சம் தான். எனக்கு ராஜாவோட ludes மட்டும் போதும்."

இது உங்களின் தனிப்பட்ட கருத்து, மற்றும் ராஜாவுக்கு எனப் பிரத்யேகமாக உள்ள இந்த தொகுப்பில் எழுதில் பெரும்பாலானோரின் கருத்தும் இதுதான் என்பது அவர்களின் கருத்துக்களை தொடர்ந்து படிக்கும் போது தெரிகிறது.

என்னைப் பொறுத்தவரை, ராஜாவின் இசைப் பாடல்கள் என்றெல்ல, ஏனைய மற்ற சிறந்த இசையமைப்பாளர்களின் உருவாக்கத்தில் வந்த சிறந்தப் பாடல்களில் முதன்மையான ஒரு இசைக்கருவி என்றால் அது குரல்கள் தான். குரல்கள் வழி உதிரிக்கப் படும் வார்த்தைகள் தான். இசைக்கருவிகள் இரண்டாம் பட்சம். ஏனென்றால், இசையைப் பற்றி சிலாகிக்க இசை அறிவு இருந்தால் நல்லது. ஆனால் பாடல் வரிகள் தாய்மொழியில் இருப்பதால், சுலபமாக பாடல் வரிகள் ஏற்படுத்தும் வெளிக்குள் பயணிக்க முடிகிறது. மேலும், பாடல் வரிகள் அதன் கட்டமைப்பு, ஏற்படுத்தும் ஆழ்ந்த சிந்தனை, ப்ரமிக்க வைக்கும் நடை என பள்ளிப் பருவம் முதலே திருக்குறள் என ஆரம்பித்து பாரதி, பாரதிதாசன் , தேசிய விநாயம் பிள்ளை இப்படி செய்யுள், கவிதை என பலவகையில் ஒரு மனிதனை தயார் செய்கிறது. ஆக, என் போன்றவர்களுக்கு பாடல் வரிகள் ஒரு இசைப்பாடலில் மிக முக்கியம்.

"நீ பாதி நான் பாதி கண்ணே அருகில் நீ நின்றால் தூங்காது கண்ணே", "இந்த மான் உந்தன் சொந்த மான்" போன்ற பாடல்களும், "அந்தி மழை பொழிகிறது ஒவ்வொரு துளியிலும் உன் முகம் தெரிகிறது" என்றப் பாடலும் காதல் ரசத்தை சொல்லும் அடிப்படையில் ஒரே ரகம். ஆனால் எனக்கு அந்தி மழை மிகவும் ஈர்க்கக் காரணம் ராக அமைப்பையும் தாண்டி, அந்தப் பாடலின் மொத்த வரிகள் ஏற்படுத்தும் இன்பம் தான். பாடல் வரிகள் நன்றாக அமையும்போது பாடலின் ராக அமைப்பிற்கே ஒரு தனி கௌரவம் கிடைத்து விடுகிறது. அந்த வகையில் ராஜாவின் இசையை உயர்ந்த இடத்தில் வைத்து அழகு பார்ப்பவை தரமான பாடல் வரிகளை தாங்கிச் சென்ற பாடல்களே.

தரமான பாடல் வரிகள் என்றால் எல்லாப் பாடல்களும் இலக்கண, இலக்கிய நடையுடன் இருக்க அவசியம் இல்லை. "ஓரம் போ, ஓரம் போ ருக்குமணி வண்டி வருது, வாங்கடா வண்டியத் தள்ளுங்கடா!" போன்ற எளிமையான நடையில் கதைக்கு, சூழலுக்கு ஏற்றார்போல வந்தப் பாடல்களும் ரசிக்கப் படவேண்டியதுதான்.

பாடல் வரிகளுக்கு இருக்கிற பலமே தனிதான். ஒரு படம் முழுவதும் வரும் கதாபாத்திரத்தின் போக்கை நாலு வரியினுள் கொண்டு வர முடியும். முதல் மரியாதை படத்தில் வரும் "ராசாவே உன்னை நம்பி" பாடல் இதற்கு ஒரு உதாரணம்.

சுழியில படகு பொல என் மனசு சுத்துது சுத்துது
பருவம் தெரியாம மழையும் பொழிஞ்சாச்சு
வெவரம் புரியாம பயிரும் வெளைஞ்சாச்சு
உனக்கே வெச்சிருக்கென் மூச்சு
எனக்கென் இந்க கதி ஆச்சு
அட கண்ணு காது மூக்கு வெச்சு
ஊருக்குள்ள பேச்சு

ராதாவின் கதாபாத்திரத்தை, மன உணர்வை இதைவிட எப்படி எளிமையாக சொல்லிவிட முடியும்? சுழியில சருகு போல என எழுதியிருக்கலாம். ஆனால் பரிசல் ஓட்டி பொழைப்பு நடத்தும் ராதாவின் உணர்வினை சொல்லும் போது "சுழியில படகு போல" பதம் மிகவும் பொருத்தமாக அமைந்து விடுகிறது.

[Sureshs65]

Venki,

Nice post. Since you are quite clear about your aesthetics, why let guys like Charu in? So let's forget Charu for the time being (if possible later as well) and continue with our dialog.

I have no arguments with you when it comes to saying that good lyrics enhance a song. How important is music and how important are lyrics for a song depends on the aesthetics of the listener and so it is very difficult to say which side is right. In case there are two artists who are confident about their art, clash between lyricists and music directors do happen. An example is the clash which happened between Sahir Ludhianvi and Khayyam after 'Kabhi Kabhi.' Sahir claiming that the success of the songs were due to his lyrics while Khayyam disagreeing to that.

Again I will agree with you when you say that a good lyricist can convey the situation, character etc in just a few lines. Kannadasan was a master in this art. Listen to his 'arupadai veedu konda tirumuruga.' In just a couple of lines he tells the whole 'sthala puranam.' Or take the case of 'ullathil nalla ullam.' How wonderfully he conveys the pathos inherent in the tale. Vairamuthu, Vaali and others have also done this when they have got a chance.

Having said that, we must also accept that a music director can convey the same emotions or encapsulate the whole situation with his music. A simple strain of a melancholic violin may convey what words of great lyricists cannot convey. This is one area in Indian film music where Raja has no peers, either form the past or in the present. When you hear the background score and how it enhances a scene, you know the power of music.

What I personally feel is that there is no use beating the same argument that 'Vairamuthu wrote the best lyrics for Raja' to death. I accept that fact but I also accept the fact that Raja will no longer work with him. So I look for his lyrics in Rahman's music or Vidyasagar's music but till now I have not been able to tear myself away from Raja though all others have Vairamuthu but Raja doesn't. The reason could be my own aesthetics. I probably wouldn't fully agree with your argument that you require some music knowledge to enjoy music. Many people first get addicted to the music before they check out the lyrics. (I am not talking about people like us but those who don't really care who the MD is or who the lyricist is.)

[Sanjeevi]

Mr. Venkiram,

Thanks for your reply.

உங்களுக்கு ராஜாவும் மற்றவர்களும் பாடல் அமைப்பாளர்கள் என்னால் ராஜாவை அப்படி கனவிலும் நினைக்க முடியாது. அவர் ஒரு 'இசை' அமைப்பாளர். அம்புடுதேன்.

[jaiganes]

Venki!!!
super post.
idhula innoruththar irukkaaru.
Avar peyar Barathi raaja.
Andha raajavum indha raajavum illainna Vairamuthuvoda varigal verum kaagidha ezuththaaga mattume irundhirukkum.
Andha maadhiri oru pinpulam amaiththu, arpudha isai amaiththu, varigalai podungannu sonnaa endha kavignanum unarndhu ezudhuvaar.
Adhellaam illaadha patshaththil, pantukku zip azhagu maadhiri thani karpanayaaga ottaamal nirkum paadalgaL thaan uruvaagum, adhu vairamuthuvoda pen aaga irundhaalum sari.
Vairamuthuvai pirindha pinnum, ilaiyaraajavin isai sodai pogavillai. Aaanal vairamuthu meendum thirayil nal vaazhvu pera Rahmannu oruththar vara vendi irundhadhu. KaLam amaivadhu isai amaippaalaninaal. KAvingnan verum varigal ittu adhai muzhumai pera seigiraan avvalave. Isai saaradha kavidhai thoguppugal endru paarthaal vairamuthuvin veeryam innum palamurai brammikka vaikkiradhu - aanaal thirai isayil avar moolam vetri adaindha paadalgal endru edhayum solla iyalaadhu.
'Kannukku mai azhagu'
chinna chinna aasai
endra paadalgal Doordarshanil oru nigazchikkaaga ezudhappattu mettamaikkappattu, vegu silaraye kavarndhu sethu veezhndha paadalgal. ARR kai patte avai amara jeevidham petrana - Ilaiyaraasavin kai pattu evvaaru neengal kurippitta paadalgal amarathuvam petranavo avvaru. Idhil neengal IR meedhulla sameebathiya nigazchigaLaal manam maarubattu, avar pugazhai sirumaipaduththum mana noakkil ezhudhi varugireergal enbadhu enakku thoandrum vishayam.

[tvsankar]

ராதாவின் கதாபாத்திரத்தை, மன உணர்வை இதைவிட எப்படி எளிமையாக சொல்லிவிட முடியும்? சுழியில சருகு போல என எழுதியிருக்கலாம். ஆனால் பரிசல் ஓட்டி பொழைப்பு நடத்தும் ராதாவின் உணர்வினை சொல்லும் போது "சுழியில படகு போல" பதம் மிகவும் பொருத்தமாக அமைந்து விடுகிறது.

Venkiram,
idha - idha than sonnen - inga dhan IR irukar..

Avar - Padal varigalil - kadha paathirathai vara vaipar.

endha kavinyanaga irundhalum...

Neegal sollum padal varigal - ungalai Eerkum enral


90s songs - Without Vairamuthu - 90s period Fans ai
kelunga...

Avangalai ellam - IR isai - Padal varigal -epadi Eerthadhu enru..

Ungaluku Vairamuthu - IR combo pidikiaradhu..

Rasinga....

Vairamuthu - SAnkar Ganesh nu pesa mudiyudha....
adhula padal varilgal - Vairamuthu ilaiya....

Evvalavu hit.. Evvalvalau varigal manadhil ninru
nilaithu irukiradhu.....

Idhai than solgiren..

Oru Kaviynyanin Varigal - Film music il Nilaithu
vaazha - MUsic Director in pangu sirudhu perudhu.......

[venkkiram]

திரு ஜெய்,

நன்றி.

ராஜாவின் புகழை சிறுமைப் படுத்தனும் என்ற முயற்சியெல்லாம் இல்லை. வைரமுத்து பிரிந்து சென்ற பிறகும் நான் முன்பு எழுதிய போல ராஜாவின் இசையில் மு.மேத்தா, ஆர்.வி.உதயக்குமார், முத்துலிங்கம், பழனிபாரதி போன்ற கவிஞர்கள் நல்லப் பாடல் வரிகளை வழங்கி இருக்கிறார்கள். ஆனால் சொல்லிக் கொள்ளும் அளவுக்கு ஒரு கன்ஸிஸ்டன்ஸி தொடர்ச்சியாக இருப்பதில்லை என்பதே என் பார்வை. அந்த ஒரு விஷயத்தில் மட்டுமே ராஜாவோடு எனக்கு சரியான அணுகுமுறை இல்லை. ஒருவேளை தாமரை போன்ற இளம் கவிஞர்கள் நல்ல இயக்குனர்கள் கூட்டணியோடு ராஜாவின் இசையில் எழுதினால் அது நல்ல ஒரு தொடக்கமாக அமையும் என நினைக்கிறேன். இதுவரை வந்த ராஜாவின் இசையில் நல்ல தரமான வரிகளைக் கொண்ட நிறைய பாடல்கள் இருப்பதால், எந்தவித எதிர்பார்ப்பும் இல்லாமுலும் அதை கேட்டுக்கொண்டே வாழ்நாளை கழிக்கலாம்.

ஆனால் அதே வேளையில், வைரமுத்து என்றொரு கவிஞரைப் பற்றிய ராஜாவின் கண்ணோட்டத்தோடையே ராஜாவின் ரசிகர்களும் அதை பார்க்க நினைப்பதென் காரணம் என்னவென்று தெரியவில்லை. ஒரு கலைஞன் எல்லோரிடத்திலும் சகஜமாக பழகிக் கொண்டே வருவது இயல்பாக நடக்க முடியாத விஷயம். இதில் வைரமுத்து, ராஜா, சிவாஜி, பாரதிராஜா, பாலச்சந்தர், கமல் என எல்லோரும் அடங்குவர்.

சினிமாவில் பாடல் ஆசிரியன் எப்போதும் இசைஅமைப்பாளரின் தயவால் மட்டுமே தன் ஆளுமையை நிலைநாட்ட முடியும். இது ராஜா, ரகுமான் போன்ற தர வரிசையில் இருப்பவர்களுக்கு மட்டுமல்ல. வைரமுத்து ஒரு புதிய அறிமுகமாகிற இசையமைப்பாளரிடம் சேர்ந்து பணியாற்றினாலும் கூட, இசையமைப்பாளர் தான் அவருக்கு களம் அமைத்துக் கொடுப்பது. ஆனால் அதைச் சொல்லியே "அவர் இல்லையென்றால் இவர் இந்த இடம் சென்றிருக்க முடியாது" என்ற நிலைப்பாடுடன் பேசுவதன் சூட்சுமம் புரியவில்லை. கண்ணதாசனை அப்படி ஒரு வரையறைக்குள் நாம் வைத்துப் பேசுவதில்லை. எம்.எஸ்.வி, கே.வி.மகாதேவன், பின்னாளில் வந்த ராஜா என இவர்கள் இல்லாமல் கண்ணதாசன் ஒன்றும் புகழடைந்திருக்க முடியாது என யாருமே அங்கலாய்ப்பதில்லை. சிவாஜியை நாம் சிலாகிக்கும் போது இயக்குனர்களின் உதவியில்லாமல் இவர் புகழடைய வாய்ப்பில்லை என நாம் பேசுவதில்லை. தேவர் மகனின் பெரியத் தேவருக்கு துணைபுரிய இயக்குனர் பரதனும், திரைக்கதை வசன கமலும் உதவி புரிந்திருக்கலாம். ஆனால் பெரியத் தேவரின் படைப்பு சிவாஜியையே சாரும். அதுபோலவே ஒரு பாடல் ஆசிரியனும். அவனுக்கு கிடைத்த தளத்தில் அவன் தனது திறமையை நிரூபணம் செய்கிறான். அந்த வெகுமதியை ஏன் ஒரு சிறந்த கவிஞனுக்கு வழங்க மனம் முன்வருவதில்லை?

ராஜாவின் இசையில் ஒரு கவிஞனைப் பற்றி சிலாகிக்கும் போது அது ராஜாவிற்குத் தானே பெருமை. ஏதோ ராஜாவை சிறுமைப் படுத்துகிறார்கள் என்ற கண்ணோட்டத்தோடையே பார்ப்பது ஏன்?

"இந்த பேண்டுக்கு ஜிப் அளகு" - ஏன் இப்படி கலாய்க்கிறீங்கன்னு புரியல. இப்போ ராஜாவும்தான் பதினாறு வயதினிலே காலப் பாடல்களை பெரும்பாலும் தருவதில்லை. அந்த ஒலிக் கருவிகள் எப்பவோ மலையேறிவிட்டது. அதுபோலத் தான் கவிஞரும். வெகுஜன மக்கள் ரசிக்கத் தானே செய்கிறார்கள் இந்த பேண்டுக்கு ஜிப் அளகு என்பதை. ராஜாவின் இசை வாத்தியங்கள் காலத்தை ஒட்டி மாறிவரும் போது கவிஞரின் கவிதையும் மாறி வருவதில் தவறிருப்பதாக தெரியவில்லை.

[Plum]

1. Kannadasan stood independent of the Music directors. Kunnakkudi thodangi R Parthasarathy varaikkum, there are numerous one day wonders that Kannadasan propped up. Forget Music Directors, Kannadasan stood up to the most politically powerful figure in the field those days - that one whose name shall not be taken here - and didnt have even a small dent in his career - now that is class for you, and that is the power of unstoppable genius.

Vairamuthu was down when he left Raja, and it needed Rahman to bring him back to glory. Therefore, it is but natural that we see his film lyrics career as dependent on music directors

Without even applying the Raja prism, I take perverse pleasure that it needed another musician, a composer of the highest quality for Vairamuthu to realise glory again. For, this was the man who challenged Raja that his lyrics were equally important to Raja's music - and until he actually found a musician of matching calibre, his lyrics pappu vEgalai. I rejoice at this defeat of verse by music - you could say I enjoy good lyrics but when it comes to music vs lyrics - I am a music fanatic. Even Kannadasan's songs, many a time, when not backed by MSV's genius, I dont enjoy as much. Glory be to music - and let all other art forms be subservient to music, says this fanatic. I'd hate the day when lyrics with sub-standard music to back it up are succesful and widely respected. The vice versa is not necessarily true. Great music with ordinary lyrics is fine by me. That's just me - but that is also probably a lot of Raja fans, and I daresay, Rahman fans. If Vairamuthu leaves Rahman, his fans are hardly going to cry. They'll make do with whatever lyrics they get and go on to appreciate the nuances of their idol's music rather than fret over lyrics.

2. The thing that I resent is to place Vairamuthu as a lyricst on par with Raja the composer and Rahman, the MD. All said and done, he is not as tall in his area as they are in theirs. If he were, he would have succeeded without both of them - and his glory periods needed propping up from either of them. Kannadasan never needed that.

[Sureshs65]

Plum,

I will agree with you to some extent and disagree to some. That's playing safe :)

When it comes to Vairamuthu and his association with Rahman I think it is 50-50. The success of Rahman nationally and internationally is a well known and well documented phenomenon and this was achieved with Vairamuthu. Having said that I can definitely say that the music Rahman composed with the lyrics of Vairamuthu are probably the most loved ones of his Tamil songs. The Tamil songs that he composed after he "fell out" (not the break in relationship but a minor fallout) with Vairamuthu, have not achieved the same sort of magic. So there is a case for arguing about Vairamuthu's contribution to initial Rahman hits in Tamil. I see them as equals as far as Tamil film music goes.

In Raja's case, his music before Vairamuthu came to the scene and after he left him has been the same and so you cannot argue that Vairamuthu was responsible for the hits or give him too much credit. But credit you must give him because he did write some lovely lyrics.

I understand what you say about Kannadasan and that is a shadow which will always be cast any lyricist who wants to write in Tamil. Kannadasan was to lyrics what Raja has been to music.

[Sureshs65]

Plum,

The success of Rahman nationally and internationally is a well known and well documented phenomenon and this was achieved with Vairamuthu.

Oops. That should read, "..achieved without Vairamuthu."

[AravindMano]

I would also like to bring up some songs of 'Aanadha thaaNdavam' for discussion. Clear case of VM's lyrics not adequately supported by the music.

[Sanjeevi]

Plum,

The success of Rahman nationally and internationally is a well known and well documented phenomenon and this was achieved with Vairamuthu.

Oops. That should read, "..achieved without Vairamuthu."

original post-la edit pannama ippadi podurathu oru fashion-a pochu, ennmo uneditable chatting pannitu irukkura mathiri :wink:

[Sureshs65]

Sanjeevi,

Got your point. What happened is that I generally post using the Lite View and I didn't realize that there was an option to edit if I went into the full view. I checked it out now and in future will use that feature. Thanks.

[rajasaranam]

அப்போதுதான் எனக்கு மற்றொரு விஷயம் புரிந்தது. இளையராஜாவின் மகத்தான வெற்றிக்கு ஒரு முக்கியமான காரணம், வைரமுத்து.
இந்த கொசு தொல்லை தாங்கல, யாராவது மருந்தடிச்சு கொல்லுங்கப்பா...:shoot: (Found an apt use for this new emoticon :D)
ராஜாவின் 33 ஆண்டுக்கால தமிழ் திரைஇசை வரலாற்றில் 5 அல்லது 6 ஆண்டுகள் , அதுவும் குறிபிட்ட அளவு திரைபடங்களில் மட்டுமே உடன் பனிபுரிந்த வைரமுத்துவுக்கே இது ரொம்ப அதிகம் என்று தெரியும்.

[tvsankar]

RS,
Vairamuthu - avar paatuku sivanae nu irukar..

Indha Chaaru - Avaruku nalladhu seiyara madhiri
keduthal panrar.

Idhai vairamuthu purindhu kondal podhum..

Ipadi than,

NA - Bala ku nalladhu seiyara mahdiri IR music ai
review panninar indha Chaaru....

Indha madhiri Jenmangaluku - indha kalathil

Society la enga idam iruku nu - romba seekriam therinjidum....
ahhahaha

[Bala (Karthik)]

Without even applying the Raja prism, I take perverse pleasure that it needed another musician, a composer of the highest quality for Vairamuthu to realise glory again. For, this was the man who challenged Raja that his lyrics were equally important to Raja's music - and until he actually found a musician of matching calibre, his lyrics pappu vEgalai. I rejoice at this defeat of verse by music - you could say I enjoy good lyrics but when it comes to music vs lyrics - I am a music fanatic. Even Kannadasan's songs, many a time, when not backed by MSV's genius, I dont enjoy as much. Glory be to music - and let all other art forms be subservient to music, says this fanatic. I'd hate the day when lyrics with sub-standard music to back it up are succesful and widely respected. The vice versa is not necessarily true. Great music with ordinary lyrics is fine by me. That's just me - but that is also probably a lot of Raja fans, and I daresay, Rahman fans. If Vairamuthu leaves Rahman, his fans are hardly going to cry. They'll make do with whatever lyrics they get and go on to appreciate the nuances of their idol's music rather than fret over lyrics.

:exactly:

[tvsankar]

Good Music - has no language...

in Film Industry......

But

Good Lyrics - is Needed for Good Music Director....

[Plum]

Good Music - has no language...

in Film Industry......

But

Good Lyrics - is Needed for Good Music Director....

Ushaji, do you mean good lyrics need a good music director and not vice versa?
Because namma telungu, Kannada, malayalam pAttellAm Raja-kkAga dhAnE kEkkarOm - and we hold some of those gems over and above even tamil gems illaiyA?
(Ofcourse, I should speak in past tense on this - ipdi Raja pAttu kEttu kEttE, all 3 languages have become accessible. :notworthy: )

[Bala (Karthik)]

As important as it may be for the lyrics to interpret and articulate the situation, story, mood at hand it is imperative (IMO of course) that
(a) the words sit well in the composed sandhams and make good vessels for carrying the tune
(b) the music director composes the song such that the sandhams act as good place-holders for Tamil words (typically)
[This is point is very much related to the fact that no matter which genre Raaja composes a song in, it still sounds like a 'Raaja' song primarily]

Enna poruthavaraikkum, good lyrics are absolutely great to have but of prime importance is the lyrics should flow along with the tune....
Haven't we listened to innumerable gems of Raaja with pedestrian and mediocre lyrics but we still love the songs because the lyrics stayed out of our minds...

[Plum]

Bala, it cant be put better than you did. I also see the dichotomy between Raja and Muthu in these terms only. I think more than an ego clash as it is popularly depicted, it might be that each perceives the role of lyrics differently. I think what Bala outlined must be very close to IR's thinking.

[Sureshs65]

Hmm. I am totally confused :confused2: On one hand I do believe that lyrics have a very good role to play in the song and there have been songs where I have not liked the tune but have listened to it for the lyrics. So I am not sure if I fully agree with lyrics are not needed, the tune is enough argument.

On the other hand I keep listening to songs from other languages regularly and enjoy them even though I may not understand a single word in that language. (As Plum says the South Indian languages have all become very accessible due to Raja. So now I listen to some tunes of Salil Da in Bengali!!!)

Lyrics to me can be of two varieties. One, wherein the meaning, good imagery, the turn of phrase, is paramount. This works well when lyrics are written first and then the tune is set. The second variety is where the lyrics the sweetness of the chosen words enhances the melody. (For ex: 'thunayai varanam ini udalil nagam aniyum harane') ONV's words contribute mightily to the sweetness of the tune at that place just by their musicality, the imagery not being very unique.

As Plum says we listen to songs from other languages and consider them better than Tamil, so the tune needs to enter you. From my own experience, 'poove poo choodavaa' is a very touching song. Vairamuthu's lyrics do contribute to the success of this song as does Chitra's singing. At the same a song like 'endhu paranjalum' touched me a lot as well, even when I did not have any clue of the meaning of that song.

I hope I have passed on my confusion clearly :D

[rajasaranam]

வேறோரு கட்டுரையிலிருந்து (http://annakannan-katturaigal.blogspot.com/2005/06/blog-post.html)


பாட்டுக்கும் கவிதைக்கும் வேறுபாடு உண்டா? இல்லையா?

உறுதியாக உண்டு. ஒழுங்கமைவு உள்ள ஓசையே இசை. அந்த இசை பயின்று வருவதே பாடல். சாதாரண பேச்சுவழக்குச் சொற்களைக்கூட விருப்பம்போல வளைத்துப் பாடலாக்கிவிடலாம். இதனால்தான் 'இழுக்குடைய பாட்டுக்கு இசை நன்று' என்றார்கள். இவை, காதுகளுக்கானவை.

பாடலுக்குள் இடம்பெறும் எதுகை, மோனை, இயைபு, சந்தம் அல்லது இசை, பாடுபவரின் குரல், பக்க வாத்தியங்கள், பின்னணி இசை ஆகியவை, கேட்பவரை ஏமாற்றக் கூடியவை; கவிதை போன்ற ஒரு மயக்கத்தைத் தரவல்லவை. பாடலின் கருத்தையோ, கவிநயத்தையோ(அப்படி ஒன்று இருந்தால்) அணுக விடாமல் கேட்பவரின் கவனத்தைத் திசைதிருப்பக் கூடியவை.

இப்படி எதிர்மறையாக இல்லாமல் சில தருணங்களில் இவை, கவித்துவத்திற்கு உதவும் கூறுகளாகவும் திகழும். அனைத்தும் சேர்ந்து கவிதையை மிக ஆழமாக நம் மனத்தில் பதியவும் வைக்கும். அது, அரிதாகத்தான் நிகழும்.

பாடல், கவிதை என்ற வடிவங்களின் மேல் தவறில்லை. அவற்றைக் கையாளுவோரின் திறனுக்கு ஏற்ப, பாடலுக்குள் கவிதையும் கவிதைக்குள் பாடலும் இடம்பெற வாய்ப்பு உண்டு. அத்தகைய இணைவு, அரிதாகத்தான் நிகழும். திரைப்படப் பாடல்கள் கவிதை ஆகுமா என்ற கேள்விக்கும் இந்தப் பதில் பொருந்தும்.

தமிழ் யாப்பு வடிவங்களுக்குப் பா என்றே பெயர். வெண்பா, ஆசிரியப்பா, கலிப்பா, வஞ்சிப்பா என்பவை, நான்கு வகைப் பாக்கள். இந்தப் பா என்பது, பாட்டைக் குறிக்கிறதா? இல்லை. பாடப்படுபவையே பாடல்கள்; பாடப்படாத நிலையில் இவை செய்யுள்களே. செய்யப்பட்டவை என்பதால் இப்பெயர்.

இந்தச் செய்யுள், பாடல் ஆகியவற்றிலிருந்து கவிதையை எப்படிப் பிரித்து அறிவது? ஓர் எளிய வழி உண்டு. இசையையும் அலங்காரங்களையும் படைப்பிலிருந்து உருவி எடுத்த பின்னும் ஓவியம், புகைப்படம் ஆகியவற்றிலிருந்து விலக்கி வைத்தபின்னும் படைப்பு, உயிர்த் துடிப்புடன் உள்ளதா? நம் உள்மனத்தைக் கவருகிறதா? அத்தகைய படைப்பிற்குள் கவிதை வாழ்கிறது. இன்றைய சூழலில் அதைக் காண்பது கொஞ்சம் கடினம்தான்.

நமக்கு தேவையான செய்தியாக இதை கட்டுடைக்கும் பொழுது கிடைப்பது என்னவென்றால் கவிதை என்பது தனித்து இயங்கும் தன்மையுடையதாய் இருக்க வேண்டும். இசை வேண்டும் கவிதைகள் இழுக்குடையவையாகும்.

இந்த புரிதலுக்கு பின் 'ராஜா'வின் இசையை கட்டுடைத்தால் அவர் இசையின் ஆதாரமாய் அமையும் மேற்கத்திய செவ்வியல் இசை என்பது, தனித்து இயங்கும் தன்மையுடையதாயும், அனைத்து மனித உனர்வுகளையும் இசை கொண்டே விளங்கி கொள்ள ,முயற்சித்த ஒரு பெரும் பாரம்பரியத்தின் நீட்சியாயும் இருப்பதை அறியலாம். ஒரு சினிமாவில் இடம் பெரும் அரை மனி நேர பாடல்களுக்கு பின் சற்றேற்த்தாழ இரன்டு மனி நேர நிகழ்வுகளை தன் இசை மூலமாக விளங்கி, அதை நமக்கு விளக்கி, பல்வேறு இசை கோளங்களை வழங்கும் ஒரு இசை கலைஞனை வெறுமனே 'பாடல்'களுக்கு இசை அமைக்கும் மற்ற கலைஞர்களோடு ஒப்பிடுவது முதல் தவறு. மேலும் அவர் தனது இசை பயிற்சியை முதலில் நாட்டார் வழக்குகளில் இருந்தே மேற்கொண்டார். அதில் அன்றாட வாழ்வு மற்றும் அதை சார்ந்த தளங்கள் மட்டுமே பாடு பொருட்கள். அங்கு கவிதை நயத்துக்காண வாய்ப்புகள் மிக குறைவு, ஒசை நயதுத்துக்கே அதிக முக்கியத்துவம். மிக சாதாரன வரிகள், கேட்டவுடன் சட்றென்று பாமரனுக்கும் பிடிபடும் வார்த்தைகள், தெளிவான பன் இவையே நாட்டார் பாடல்களின் அடிநாதம். இதுவும் ராஜாவின் இசை அளுமையின் அடித்தளம். இந்த பின்புலத்தை புரிந்து கொள்ளாதது அவர் இசையில் கவிதை வேண்டி நிற்க்கும் விமர்சகர்களின் அடுத்த தவறு.

அவர் பாடல்களில் சொற்களை நீக்கி விட்டு பார்த்தால் உள்ளங்கை நெல்லிக்கனி போல் தெரியும் இசை வியாபித்தல் சில பழச்'சாரு'களுக்கு மட்டும் புரியாமல் இருப்பது தங்களை அதிமேதாவியாய் என்னி கொள்ளுதலால் எழும் ஒரு உனர்வு நிலை. அந்த நிலையே அவர்களின் இருப்பை தக்க வைக்க போதுமானதாய் இருப்பதால் அவர்கள் அந்த நிலையிலிருந்து மீள போவது இல்லை. ஆணால் இங்கு சில ராஜாவின் இசை ரசிகர்களும் அந்த நிலை எடுக்கும் பொழுது அவர்கள் இன்னும் ராஜாவின் இசையை சரியாக உள்வாங்க வில்லையோ என ஐயம் எழுகிறது. 33 ஆன்டுகள் அவர் பனிபுரிந்த என்னற்ற பாடல்களை நீக்கி விட்டால் எஞ்சுவது ஏதும் இல்லையா! வாழ்வின் அத்தனை பரிமானத்தையும் இசையால் அள்ளி சுவைத்து வித விதமாய் நெசவு செய்து நமக்கு வழங்கிய அந்த பேரிசை கலைஞனுக்கு நாம் செலுத்தும் நன்றி கடன் இதுதானா? தமிழ் திரையிசையின் இரு பெரும் தனித்த 'பாடல்' சார்ந்த போக்குகளுக்கு ஊடுபாவாய் ஒரு பெரும் கடலென ஆர்பரித்து திரை இசை பாடல் சார்ந்தது மட்டும் அல்ல அது அந்த திரைபடத்தின் உள்ளடக்கம் சார்ந்தது , கதையின் போக்கில் உள்ளாடுவது என நிருபித்து கொண்டே இருக்கும் அவரை...வரிகளுக்கு அதிக முக்கியத்துவம் கொடுக்க மறுக்கிறார் என மீண்டும் மீண்டும் அறுதியிடுவது அவர் இசையை சரியாக புரிந்து கொள்ளாத நமது இயலாமையை மட்டுமே சுட்டுகிறது.

[Sanjeevi]

Sabash RS

[app_engine]

I didn't call Charu's statement idiotic simply because of my bias towards IR. I'm not a blind (or deaf) follower of IR as anyone reading my posts for a time period can understand. I have my own share of criticizing IR / his works.

Not even because of the "general craziness" of Charu (I've been in his website enough to make this statement). Or because of his specific agenda to bash IR at every chance / non-chance.

No, not at all!

My statement was purely based on a close observation of IR's career graph from the beginning.

And a careful consideration of statistics of his output.

And the capability of him to do music without ANY lyric - let alone that of VM (thanks RS for a nice post on this).

Say instead Panju Arunachalam who gave him the break into the role of MD (or GKV under whom he got trained to be a composer) as those who are responsible for this phenomenan called IR. Or call his wife as an important factor - as a negative there could throw a kalaignan off totally:-)

I'll applaud and agree (even IR will agree with me, as a couple of his appreciable qualities I've observed are GRATITUDE and RESPECT FOR SENIORS IN THE BIZ).

If we call VM as one kAraNi, there are even more important kAraNikaL - like each and every one his arrangers / programmers, the violinists, tabla players, guitarists, shenoy players, flautist and all such troupe members. VM is just one among them, IMO!

Well, in that sense, he is one factor :-)

[Sureshs65]

RS,

A very nice post.

It is true that Raja has multiple dimensions and has his own set of aesthetics, which we can understand only if we listen carefully to his songs.

Raja, for all his supposed ego and eccentricity, understands his contribution to a film and works accordingly like no one else before him or after him has done. He knows what a film requires and accordingly gives what is required. I never get tired of pointing out the BGM of 'Aa Dinagalu'. When he could have gone ballistic in the BGM given that the whole crew (except the actors) were quite new to cinema. Instead Raja understands the vision of the director and enhances the whole movie experience with his very menacing and subdued BGM. In this regard I fully agree with what RS says. Film music is not just about songs. It is about the film. That is what Raja teaches us.

[app_engine]

-ராசா பாடல் வரிகளுக்கு முக்கியத்துவம் கொடுப்பதில்லை
-ராசா வந்த பின் தமிழ் பாடல் வரிகளின் தரம் பாதாளத்துக்குப்போய் விட்டது
-ராசா தானே பல்லவியை எழுதி விடுகிறார்
-இசைக்கருவிகளின் ஆதிக்கத்தால் வரிகளுக்கு முக்கியத்துவம் இல்லாமல் செய்து விட்டார்
-தமிழைக்கொச்சையாக்கி விட்டார்
-வெறும் டப்பாங்குத்து

இவையெல்லாம் அவர் வந்த நாள் முதல் சந்தித்து வரும் குற்றச்சாட்டுகள்

அப்படி இருக்கும்போது, அவர் வெற்றிக்கு மட்டும் திடீரென்று எப்படி 'இவர் ஒரு முக்கியக்காரணம்' என்று பாடலாசிரியரை இழுக்கிறார்கள்?

பயங்கர முரண்பாடு :-)

'செலவெல்லாம் உன் கணக்கு, வரவில் மட்டும் எனக்கும் பங்கு' என்று சொல்லும் கள்ளத்தனம் தானே இது?

[tvsankar]

app,
one more complaint...

Computer la isai amaika muyarchi seiyarar.
Orchestra ku velai ilalmal pogum.

Pavam Orchestra people....
idhuuvm
IR ai patri - magazine la vandha complaint app.

[app_engine]

Yes, Usha chEchi, he is probably at the top position in "getting bashed despite having talent that is comparable to any genius in the world in his field" :-) pseudo நக்கீரன்மார் வாழ்க! :-(

Since you (and your brother) know about the phenomenal early successes of IR i.e. much before the arrival of VM into TF field, you can easily recognize the false claims of these fellows.

Who knows, tomorrow some "mOru" or "chORu" will come and write that IR was shot into prominence in his first film itself - only because he scored for superstar Surya's father who was the superstar of yesteryears :-)

[jaiganes]

Yes, Usha chEchi, he is probably at the top position in "getting bashed despite having talent that is comparable to any genius in the world in his field" :-) pseudo நக்கீரன்மார் வாழ்க! :-(

Since you (and your brother) know about the phenomenal early successes of IR i.e. much before the arrival of VM into TF field, you can easily recognize the false claims of these fellows.

Who knows, tomorrow some "mOru" or "chORu" will come and write that IR was shot into prominence in his first film itself - only because he scored for superstar Surya's father who was the superstar of yesteryears :-)

it is all due to panchu who named him ilaiyaraja - the numerology was too good to be let down by the unpost modernist(see if you say he is traditional, he will become a classic) paamaran holding it.

funniest statements charu nivedita likes have made is saying yuvan is a better MD than raasappu - like saying Moon is more luminous than sun.

[Sureshs65]

I would probably restate the arguments set into motion by venki as two sets of arguments:

a. Of all the lyricist who wrote for Raja, Vairamuthu wrote the best lyrics for Raja's music

b. Of all the songs composed by Raja, the best songs are those which have lyrics by Vairamuthu

My gut feel is that venki belongs to the first camp. If we take Kannadasan out of the mix, I guess majority of us will have no issues in accepting the first type of argument.

People like Charu fall into the category who wish the second type of argument is true. I don't think anyone will need to seriously debate this because we all know about Raja's success before and after VM. And if you take the success in other languages, this just doesn't hold water.

I would see app_eng posts as a clear indication of these two lines of thought. When app wrote his wish list from Raja, he very clearly mentioned that he would love Raja to work with Vairamuthu, he was agreeing to point a. But when venki quoted Charu as saying Raja's success was due to VM, app said it was idiotic. He was disagreeing with point b. I fully endorse app's view on this. Would love to see Raja work with VM or someone of his caliber but at the same time I have no hesitation in saying that whoever Raja works with, the music will be Raja's and the music will not be diminished due to the absence of a particular lyricist.

Once we have the clarity of what the argument is, we don't really need to fight :) The first type of argument, we anyway agree. The second type of argument is idiotic and doesn't deserve a reply.

[Bala (Karthik)]

funniest statements charu nivedita likes have made is saying yuvan is a better MD than raasappu - like saying Moon is more luminous than sun.
:shock: You're kidding right?!
Funniest, best ellam Saaru ku apply panradhu kashtam. He keeps raising the bar with every subsequent article of his

[jaiganes]

funniest statements charu nivedita likes have made is saying yuvan is a better MD than raasappu - like saying Moon is more luminous than sun.
:shock: You're kidding right?!
Funniest, best ellam Saaru ku apply panradhu kashtam. He keeps raising the bar with every subsequent article of his
saami sathiyama appdi dhaan andha blogla adhu ezudhi irukku.

[app_engine]

I would probably restate the arguments set into motion by venki as two sets of arguments:

a. Of all the lyricist who wrote for Raja, Vairamuthu wrote the best lyrics for Raja's music

b. Of all the songs composed by Raja, the best songs are those which have lyrics by Vairamuthu

My gut feel is that venki belongs to the first camp.

உங்க "gut feel" தவறானது என்பது என் தாழ்மையான அபிப்ராயம். அவர் ஒரு வைரமுத்து வெறியர், ராசாவை எப்படியெல்லாம் மட்டம் தட்டலாம் என்ற ஒரே நோக்கத்துடன் இந்த forum'க்கு வருகிறார் என்றே தோன்றுகிறது.

அவரது சில முந்தைய பதிப்புகளில் இருந்து :



கடந்த இருபது வருடத்தில் ராஜாவின் இசையில் வந்த அருமையான பாடல்களை கணக்கிலெடுத்தால், பெரும்பாலானவை மலிவான தரமற்ற, கற்பனை வறட்சி மிகுந்த பாடல் வரிகளைக் கொண்டவை.
....
வாலி ராஜாவை "எனக்கு வெண்பா சொல்லிக்கொடுத்தவர்" என வாயார புகழும்போது எனக்கு திருவிளையாடல் நாகேஷின் "ம்ம், இதெல்லாம் நல்லா பண்ணு, ஆனா பாட்டுல மட்டும் கோட்டை வுட்டுடு" என்ற வசனங்கள் தான் நினைவுக்கு வருகிறது.
....
கவிஞர் கடந்த இருபது வருடத்தில் புதிய தலைமுறையை தொடர்ந்து ஈர்த்து வந்திருக்கிறார். அந்தக் கண்ணோட்டத்தில் பார்க்கும்போது ராஜாவின் வீச்சு வைரமுத்துவின் வீச்சைக் காட்டிலும் குறைவே.


இவற்றுக்கெல்லாம் மேல் இப்போ சாருவையும் உதவிக்கு அழைத்திருக்கிறார். நீங்க சொன்ன 2வது கூட்டத்தவர் இவர்.

If one goes through all his postings, the appreciation is always centered around VM's lyric while criticism is on everything else. And according to him, VM has written great poem to other MDs than IR / ARR and stood on his own leg (some of the films quoted by him there are ridiculous IMO)

Hardly any appreciation for musical part or the great talents called IR / ARR. So, please don't let the claims as "IR enga ALu" etc or the fact that someone is merely coming to post in the IR forum put that person in your first category automatically:-)

Also, in my 'Adhangam' list, getting better lyric is just "one of the many" to get greater output from IR. Going by my original line of thought, better lyric is similar to getting better recording - definitely nice to have, but not something that defined IR's glittering career :-)

[tvsankar]

app,
indha chaaru - onum theiryamal olararar.
adhan sonnen - kazhudhaiku theiryuma karpoora vasanai.... nu...

Anana patta Subbudu - Carnatic details depth
ku therinja indha manusharae - IR oda 6 padathuu apparam IR ai pazhikaradha niruthitu
- IR enna seiyarar nu Watch panna arambithavar....

Avar- Romba late a - IR in invention ai purindhu kondavar....

indha chaaru - verum dhoosi.........

one more point.

Kadavul irukar - idhai unarndhavaruku
solla theiryum....

kadavulai Unara - enna vazhi nu solla thieryum....

Kadavul illai enbavar

Romba kashta pattu - kadavul vishayam ellam padipar.. (Infact kadavul avar kuda than irupar.)

Anal - Ivar dhan kadavul ilal enrae ninaikararae...

So, kadavul arul - ivargaluku puriyadhu...
Adhu pola,
indha chaaru - IR ai pazhikanam nu mudivu seidhu - Adharkaga arum paadu padarar...

Adhanal, indha jenmathil - Ivar oru Nyana Sooniyamaga than iruka mudiyum......

thaan oru Nyana sooniyam ena unarndhu kollamal,
miga perumaiyaga - IR ai pazhithu kondu irukirar...

So no issues about his thoughts......

[jaiganes]

I would probably restate the arguments set into motion by venki as two sets of arguments:

a. Of all the lyricist who wrote for Raja, Vairamuthu wrote the best lyrics for Raja's music

b. Of all the songs composed by Raja, the best songs are those which have lyrics by Vairamuthu

My gut feel is that venki belongs to the first camp.

உங்க "gut feel" தவறானது என்பது என் தாழ்மையான அபிப்ராயம். அவர் ஒரு வைரமுத்து வெறியர், ராசாவை எப்படியெல்லாம் மட்டம் தட்டலாம் என்ற ஒரே நோக்கத்துடன் இந்த forum'க்கு வருகிறார் என்றே தோன்றுகிறது.

அவரது சில முந்தைய பதிப்புகளில் இருந்து :



கடந்த இருபது வருடத்தில் ராஜாவின் இசையில் வந்த அருமையான பாடல்களை கணக்கிலெடுத்தால், பெரும்பாலானவை மலிவான தரமற்ற, கற்பனை வறட்சி மிகுந்த பாடல் வரிகளைக் கொண்டவை.
....
வாலி ராஜாவை "எனக்கு வெண்பா சொல்லிக்கொடுத்தவர்" என வாயார புகழும்போது எனக்கு திருவிளையாடல் நாகேஷின் "ம்ம், இதெல்லாம் நல்லா பண்ணு, ஆனா பாட்டுல மட்டும் கோட்டை வுட்டுடு" என்ற வசனங்கள் தான் நினைவுக்கு வருகிறது.
....
கவிஞர் கடந்த இருபது வருடத்தில் புதிய தலைமுறையை தொடர்ந்து ஈர்த்து வந்திருக்கிறார். அந்தக் கண்ணோட்டத்தில் பார்க்கும்போது ராஜாவின் வீச்சு வைரமுத்துவின் வீச்சைக் காட்டிலும் குறைவே.


இவற்றுக்கெல்லாம் மேல் இப்போ சாருவையும் உதவிக்கு அழைத்திருக்கிறார். நீங்க சொன்ன 2வது கூட்டத்தவர் இவர்.

If one goes through all his postings, the appreciation is always centered around VM's lyric while criticism is on everything else. And according to him, VM has written great poem to other MDs than IR / ARR and stood on his own leg (some of the films quoted by him there are ridiculous IMO)

Hardly any appreciation for musical part or the great talents called IR / ARR. So, please don't let the claims as "IR enga ALu" etc or the fact that someone is merely coming to post in the IR forum put that person in your first category automatically:-)

Also, in my 'Adhangam' list, getting better lyric is just "one of the many" to get greater output from IR. Going by my original line of thought, better lyric is similar to getting better recording - definitely nice to have, but not something that defined IR's glittering career :-)

poombaavo aambal aambal
punnagayo saambal saambal

enakku thonichu aanaal ezudhalai
neenga ezudhiteenga -
like crazy mohan says
'aanalum ungalukku romba dhairiyam saar'

[app_engine]

digression

http://jeyamohan.in/?p=4972



என் வரையில் இவற்றால் அபாரமான பயன் இருப்பதை நான்கடவுள்படம் வெளியானபோது கண்டுகொண்டேன். தேடல் வழியாக பல ஆயிரம்பேர் என் இணையதளத்துக்குள் வந்துவிட்டார்கள். படம்போனபின்னரும் அவர்கள் போகவுமில்லை. இப்போதும் அலெக்ஸா ரேட்டிங்கில் என் இணையதளம் குதித்திருப்பதைப் பார்க்கலாம்.


This is possibly one reason for Charu to drag IR without any provacation. Just being clever!

I remember reading Gnani writing in one of his O pakkangaL that one of the most blogged subjects is IR

end-digression

[venkkiram]

உங்க "gut feel" தவறானது என்பது என் தாழ்மையான அபிப்ராயம். அவர் ஒரு வைரமுத்து வெறியர், ராசாவை எப்படியெல்லாம் மட்டம் தட்டலாம் என்ற ஒரே நோக்கத்துடன் இந்த forum'க்கு வருகிறார் என்றே தோன்றுகிறது.


சந்தடி சாக்கில் சேற்றை தெளித்து விட்டு சென்றிருக்கிறார் திரு. app_engine.

கழுவிக் கொள்வது என் கடமை. தற்போது நேரம் இல்லாததால் வார இறுதியில் என் தரப்பு விளக்கத்தை தருவதாக இருக்கிறேன். அதுவே ராஜா சம்பந்தமான எல்லாத் திரிகளிலும், எனது கடைசிப் பதிவாக இருக்கும் என்றும் தெரிவித்துக் கொள்கிறேன். இனி இதுபோன்ற விவாதங்களில் என்னையும், எண்ணற்ற ராஜா ரசிகர்களையும் ஈடுபடுத்த விரும்பவில்லை.

[app_engine]

சந்தடி சாக்கில் சேற்றை தெளித்து விட்டு சென்றிருக்கிறார் திரு. app_engine.


ஐயா வெங்கிராம்,

இது தாங்களே தெளித்துக்கொண்ட "சாரு". நான் மேற்கோள் காட்டின உங்கள் பதிப்புகளின் அடிப்படையில் வந்த அனுமானம் மற்றும் சுரேஷுக்கு தெளிவு படுத்த எடுத்த முயற்சி. அவ்வளவே. ஆள் இன்னாரென்று அறியா வலையுலகில், அவர்களது பதிப்புகளே அடையாளங்கள். ராசா பகுதியில் தங்களது பதிப்புகளையெல்லாம் தயை கூர்ந்து மீண்டும் ஒரு முறை வாசித்துப்பாருங்கள்.



கழுவிக் கொள்வது என் கடமை. தற்போது நேரம் இல்லாததால் வார இறுதியில் என் தரப்பு விளக்கத்தை தருவதாக இருக்கிறேன்.


தாராளமாக, வரவேற்கிறோம்!



அதுவே ராஜா சம்பந்தமான எல்லாத் திரிகளிலும், எனது கடைசிப் பதிவாக இருக்கும் என்றும் தெரிவித்துக் கொள்கிறேன்.


லட்சம் பேருக்கு மேல் உள்ள ஹப்பில் ஒரு ஆள் சொன்ன அபிப்ராயத்துக்காக முணுக்கென்று கோபித்துக்கொண்டு போக வேண்டியதில்லை. உங்கள் நல்ல கருத்துகளைத்தொடர்ந்து பதித்தால் இங்கு வரவேற்க ஆயிரக்கணக்கில் ஆட்கள் இருக்கிறார்கள்!



இனி இதுபோன்ற விவாதங்களில் என்னையும், எண்ணற்ற ராஜா ரசிகர்களையும் ஈடுபடுத்த விரும்பவில்லை.

நல்ல முடிவு! சாரு மாதிரி வம்பு-வீம்புகளை இங்கு வரவழைக்காமல் இருத்தல் ரத்த அழுத்தத்துக்கு நல்லது!

[Bala (Karthik)]

:thumbsup:

[Plum]

app engine - :thumbsup :clap:

[tvsankar]

app - Azhaga, theliva solli irukeenga..

thank you.

[genesis]

http://www.jeyamohan.in/?p=5554

Jeyamohan writes:

=================================
ஆனால் பாடலில் ஒரு புதுமை தேவை. அதிகமாகக் கேள்விப்படாத சொற்சேர்க்கைகள் புதிய உவமைகள் இருக்கவேண்டும். இல்லையேல் அவை இசையின் இனிமையால் கேட்கப்பட்டாலும் சீக்கிரமே சலித்துவிடும்.

உதாரணமாக

நினைவோ ஒரு பறவை
விரிக்கும் அதன் சிறகை!

போன்ற ஒரு வரி இசை கொஞ்சம் பழகினாலும் நினைவில் நீடிக்கும். ஆனால் அப்படி ஒரு பொருளழகு இல்லாத வரிகள் அவை அளிக்கும் அனுபவத்தை காலப்போக்கில் இழந்துவிடும். உதாரணமாக எனக்கு மிகப்பிடித்த இசை கொண்ட

சந்தா ஓ சந்தா
இவள் சம்மதம் தந்தா

என்ற வரியை எப்போது கேட்டாலும் எரிச்சல்தான்.
================================

Here we go...from trusted person. I think many of IR songs in 90s and now have lyrics that create "எரிச்சல்".

[Bala (Karthik)]

from trusted person
Appadinna??

"Hava havala raani huva huvala meni Raani meni Raani!" - idhaye naanga kandukkala :lol: You can listen to this song even 28 years from now 8-)

[genesis]

from trusted person
Appadinna??

"Hava havala raani huva huvala meni Raani meni Raani!" - idhaye naanga kandukkala :lol: You can listen to this song even 28 years from now 8-)

someone unlike you!! :D

[Bala (Karthik)]

Oh, bank account details ellam kuduppeenga pola irukku! Good for you :lol2:

[jaiganes]

I think it is fair - Even IR has mentioned that he has done so many 'kuppai films' in the past for which he might have tailored thw words. aanaal naama inge kuppayai kelaruvadharkaaga varaliye? Genesis sir. Neenga nalla kelarureenga.... Kuppaya...

[genesis]

நான் குப்பையை கிளறவில்லை. நீங்கள் குப்பையை கோபுரத்தில் வைப்பதை எதிர்கிறேன். உடனே நான் இளையராஜா இசையை குப்பை என்று சொல்கிறேன் என்று சொல்ல வேண்டாம். கடந்த 10-15 வருடங்களில் நிறைய குப்பை சேர்ந்து விட்டது என்றே சொல்கிறேன்.

[jaiganes]

நான் குப்பையை கிளறவில்லை. நீங்கள் குப்பையை கோபுரத்தில் வைப்பதை எதிர்கிறேன். உடனே நான் இளையராஜா இசையை குப்பை என்று சொல்கிறேன் என்று சொல்ல வேண்டாம். கடந்த 10-15 வருடங்களில் நிறைய குப்பை சேர்ந்து விட்டது என்றே சொல்கிறேன்.

kuppayai erikkum neruppum nerayave irukku saar. Appallaam silentaa irundhuttu kuppayai mattume sutti kaatta varavangala naama ennaannu solradhu?

[genesis]

தமிழே, தப்பிச்சுக்கோ!

http://www.writerpara.com/paper/?p=11

[app_engine]

[tscii:bee483d3ce]

Sometimes, he does make suggestions on the lyrics.

“I often ask them why they use lyrics that explain the visuals on the screen when the sequence is self-explanatory? We could avoid redundant lyrics,” he notes. “I have had the opportunity to see how the lyrics complement the tune during my experience of working with greats like Kavignar Kannadsan.”



http://beta.thehindu.com/arts/article79741.ece
[/tscii:bee483d3ce]

[Plum]

Going through the discussions again, I think one point out discussed is that there are lyricists in other languages who are equal or better than vm. We tend to overrate vm. A sirivennala sitaram sastry is no less. I can talk about this now since I have now learnt telugu almost as well as tamil. Even veturi, who is kind of the vaali equivalent has some great lyrics for Raja. If you take Swathi Muthyam, the telugu lyrics sparkle in comparison to the tamil version. Vm oblivious to the situation and the characters, uses "varam thandha saami" when a brahmin character is unlikely to use the word "saami". And the telugu lyrics sit on the tune much better. I am not sure if it was veturi or sastry who wrote for swathi muthyam.
Even granted the limitations of dubbing lyrics, vm has done a poor job there. Same with saagara sangamam. I quote this because vm fans have the habit of ubbishing javed akthar for dil se lyrics in comparison to uyirae trying to imply that vm is the best in india. I am not that familiar with malayalm to talk about mallu lyrics but the way the words sit on the tunes, I do think raja has had some good mallu lyrics too

[Sureshs65]

Plum,

'vatapatra saayeki' from Swathimuthyam was by C. Narayana Reddy, Cnare for short. KV had in one interview said that the lyrics here were written first and the tune came later.

I agree with you regarding Telugu having lyricist equal to Vairamuthu. While I too regard Gulzar and Javed Akthar not to be in the same league as the Southern lyricists, I wouldn't say VM beats them all. Sitarama Sastry's work in Swarnakamalam is something which can only be matched by the lyrics of Kannadasan, a combination of great poetry fitting the situation perfectly and blending superbly with the tune. You can write a huge article about the lyrics of swarnakamalam alone!! While Veturi can be considered equivalent to Vaali in terms of longevity and his ability to write for any type of movie, IMO his best is far better than Vaali. Here again, it is KV who draws the best out of him, be it Sankarabaranam or Sagara Sangamam.

As with you I too don't know Malayalam so cannot comment on the quality. But from whatever little I understand the lyrics of people like ONV seem to be of very high quality.

[raagas]

Since I do not understand tamil, I cannot comment on the lyrical genius of VM. But i agree that Veturi and Sirivennela have been assets to telugu film music, after the 50s,60s and 70s. Veturi needs a good director to inspire him. His range is tremendous.He can write absolutely classy lyrics and even the crass ones. And sirivennela's imageries are amazing.

While we are talking about Sirivennela's lyrics for Swarna kamalam, please see this: http://musicmavericks.blogspot.com/2007/09/ode-to-art-by-sirivennela.html

A word-by-word explanation of the meaning of the song "Sivapoojaku" from Swarna kamalam.

[Sureshs65]

raagas,

Thanks for the link. I had actually wanted to search for the same link but did not have the patience earlier :) Thought I will search and post it later in the day.

[Plum]

Raagas, thx for the link. Nice dissection.

[Plum]

The writer mentions that he is not focussing on ir in this song. However his part is there in the delineation between the tune for venkatesh(reverent, uptight, classical) and the one for bhanupriya(free flowing, carefree, folkish) which represent their mind states at tha point of their life

[jaiganes]

Out of turn, I was listening to Oru vaandu kootame from nandalala - the lyrics are no great poetry by any stretch of imagination, but they are at such a simple level complementing the music which tries to 'sound' simple and kiddish It is like a hand and a glove stitched for it. Perfect match...

[Sureshs65]

True Plum. Subtly done but generally Raja is even more subtle :) He could have easily used either of them as a separate song. I generally feel that the number of ideas that Raja gets into one song is phenomenal. When I hear the latest songs of various MDs, you can see that the whole song is based on one catchy idea and the rest come more as fillers!! Good for the MDs that people are satisfied by that one idea, whether it be an original one or transposed from somewhere else.

[genesis]

Going through the discussions again, I think one point out discussed is that there are lyricists in other languages who are equal or better than vm. We tend to overrate vm. A sirivennala sitaram sastry is no less. I can talk about this now since I have now learnt telugu almost as well as tamil. Even veturi, who is kind of the vaali equivalent has some great lyrics for Raja. If you take Swathi Muthyam, the telugu lyrics sparkle in comparison to the tamil version. Vm oblivious to the situation and the characters, uses "varam thandha saami" when a brahmin character is unlikely to use the word "saami". And the telugu lyrics sit on the tune much better. I am not sure if it was veturi or sastry who wrote for swathi muthyam.
Even granted the limitations of dubbing lyrics, vm has done a poor job there. Same with saagara sangamam. I quote this because vm fans have the habit of ubbishing javed akthar for dil se lyrics in comparison to uyirae trying to imply that vm is the best in india. I am not that familiar with malayalm to talk about mallu lyrics but the way the words sit on the tunes, I do think raja has had some good mallu lyrics too

No one is saying VM is the greatest poet/lyricist in the world. (unlike you claim IR is the greatest in the world). As far as I know Gulzar is equal or better than VM. But VM is a better lyricist than IR. And IR does not want to work with talented lyricists like VM. It is again and again proven and told by many people that IR is not a team player. (latest being Pazhassi Raja controversy). It is either his way or no-way. Accept and move-on!!

[app_engine]

genesis,

This is the problem. There was strictly NO CONTROVERSY in IR's speech. It was there on youtube for any person to see.

That some idiotic political elements chose to twist his innocent speech, for their own presence in the news is the problem.

Definitely IR was not to blame in this case. Period. In the case of 'Adhi ushus', he did tune to the pre-written lyrics of ONV. Where was he trying to twist the hands of the lyricist? He was just boasting of himself in adding the "feeling of loss" by his composing, to a lyric that had "military march" sandham.

That way, VM had problems with ARR also - supposedly the holy cow when it comes to relationships / humility etc. WHY?

[Plum]

App, leave it. People who haven't even listend to the speech are trying to settle old scores based on reports :lol:

To vm fanatics who are trying hard to tarnish raja desparately
In your own idol's words:
Pazhaya bAkki irukkudhA
AiyAa(kkaL) manasu thudikkudhA?

[Sureshs65]

genesis,

I would have argued with you but for this statement, "As far as I know Gulzar is equal or better than VM". My personal feeling is that Gulzar, in film music, never touched the heights that VM did. Suffice to say, app_eng has clearly given what the problem is in arguments that you come up with. You assume that everyone else is as pure as the 'jibba' they wear and only Raja is not as pure. Once you try and find out the behavior of your idols honestly, you will find that you can easily accept Raja's behavior as well.

So ahead and tell me what you consider are the bad points with Vairamuthu.

[Sureshs65]

genesis,

I find that we are in agreement. You agree that VM is not the greatest lyricist in the world and we agree that Raja is the greatest MD in the world :lol: Peace.

[raagas]

Since i am unaware of the genius of VM, i wont comment on VM vs Gulzar issue. But i always felt that it has been gross injustice to put IR's miniscule (but grand) Hindi repertoire in the hands of Sameer (Hey Ram, Cheeni Kum). I mention these 2 films because:

1. Hey Ram had a partition angle to the story and Gulzar had himself written poetry/short stories on Partition issue, which has been one of his muses.

2. Cheeni Kum - This whole concept of Love doesnt know age and old man falling in love with a middle-aged lady is new and it is Gulzar's territory. He did a terrific job in the song "Dil Tho Baccha Hai Jee"(film: Ishqiya, music: Vishal Bharadwaj... give this album a listen...it is a brilliant soundtrack,ignoring the remixes). The premise of Cheeni Kum and this song's lyrics match so well that Gulzar would have really elevated or complemented the music by soaking the music in much more sweeter thoughts/wordplay. Not this song alone,but as such, gulzar has a fine understanding of deeper human emotions, subtleties and relationships. And his flair for putting across those sensitive images is stunning and unique. I really missed Gulzar in Cheeni Kum.

[genesis]

Govt of India announced Padma Bhushan for IR today. It is an honor to the award.

app_engine and plum,

I am not a VM fanatic. I am more angry with die-hard IR (DHIR) fans than IR himself. It is a clear fact that IR does not want to work him VM for some reason. To justify that lot of DHIR fans have made fun of VM. I do not think it is fair. That's all.

[app_engine]

genesis,
Actually I don't care about the VM controversy at all which, for all practical purposes, is long dead :-)

OTOH, IR made a very ordinary remark (that also included praises for ONV, incidentally) which was unnecessarily blown out of proportion by some elements. It's painful that people like you too buy that :-(

[app_engine]

இன்று காலை வண்டியில் திரும்பத்திரும்ப இதமான பாடலான "இளமை எனும் பூங்காற்று" கேட்டபொழுது இந்த இழையின் நினைவு வந்தது:-)

ராசா தான் தமிழ்த்திரைப்பாடல்களைக்குழி தோண்டிப்புதைத்தவர் என்றும் பின்னாளில் தான் தங்க / வைர / பித்தளை வரிகள் எல்லாம் முளைத்தன என்றும் கூறித்திரிவோர் உன்னிப்பாய்க்கேட்க / கவனிக்க வேண்டிய ஒரு "வரலாற்று முக்கியத்துவம்" வாய்ந்த பாடல் இது.

பாடல் சூழமைவு : உடலின் உணர்வுப்படி மாத்திரம் நடந்து கொள்ளும், அதன் விபரீத விளைவுகள் இன்னவென்று அறியாப்பெண் - உதவி செய்யப்போய் உபத்திரவத்தில் சிக்கிக்கொள்ளும் நிலை. "பகலில் ஒரு இரவு" நடக்கிறது :-)

பாடல் வரிகள் :

இளமையெனும் பூங்காற்று பாடியது ஓர் பாட்டு
ஒரு பொழுது ஓர் ஆசை சுகம் சுகம் அதிலே ஒரே சுகம்
ஒரே வீணை ஒரே ராகம்

தன்னை மறந்து மண்ணில் விழுந்த இளமை மலரின் மீது
கண்ணை இழந்த வண்டு
தேக சுகத்தில் கவனம் காட்டு வழியில் பயணம்
கங்கை நதிக்கு மண்ணில் அணையா?

அங்கம் முழுதும் பொங்கும் இளமை இதமும் பதமாய்த் தோன்ற
அள்ளி அணைத்த கைகள்
கேட்க நினைத்தாள் மறந்தாள் கேள்வி எழுமுன் விழுந்தாள்
எந்த உடலோ எந்த உறவோ

மங்கை இனமும் மன்னன் இனமும் குலமும் குணமும் என்ன
தேகம் துடித்தால் கண்ணேது
கூந்தல் கலைந்த கனியை கொஞ்சி சுவைத்த கிளியே
இந்த நிலைதான் என்ன விதியோ


விரசம் இல்லாமல் பாடல் வரிகள் இருப்பதால் வீட்டில் அனுமதி மறுக்கப்படாத பாடல் :-) என்றாலும், படம் பார்க்காவிட்டாலும் வானொலியில் கேட்டபொழுதெல்லாம் இசைக்கோர்ப்பின் விளைவாக "இனம் புரியாத" உணர்வுகள் வந்தது உண்மை. பின்னாளில் காட்சி பார்த்தபோது தானே தெரிந்தது ஐ.வி.சசியின் லீலை :-)

பாடல் எழுதியது யார் என்று சொல்லத்தேவையில்லை. இ.ஒ.கூ.ஸ்தாபனத்தின் மயில்வாகனம் அவர்கள் அறிவிப்பது தான் நினைவுக்கு வருகிறது - "கவிஞரின் பாடலுக்கு இளையராஜா இசை" :-) பேரே சொல்லமாட்டார் அவர் - நேயர்களுக்குத்தெரியும் இவ்வளவு எளிய வரிகளில், "அனுபவித்து" எழுதுவதில் அவரைப்போல் இன்னொருவர் இல்லை என்று :-)

இன்னொரு விஷயம் - பாடலின் வருடம் 1979 :-)

[genesis]

அப்_என்ஜின்,

பிரச்னை என்னவென்றால், ராஜாவின் இசையில் நல்ல பாடல் என்றல் உங்களுக்கு கண்ணதாசனின் பாடல்களும் வாலியின் பாடல்களும் மட்டுமே நினைவுக்கு வருவது தான். ராஜாவின் இசையில் வைரமுத்துவும் பல நல்ல பாடல்களை எழுதியுள்ளார். ராஜாவுக்கும் வைரமுத்துக்கும் இடையில் இருக்கும் பிரச்சனை உங்கள் ரசனையை ஏன் பாதிக்கிறது என்பது தான் எனக்கு புரியவில்லை.

[baroque]

Wonderful composition indeed!

I am immersed in the emotional melodies of R.V.Udhaya Kumar with Ilayaraja hits.

From Kizhakku vaasal, chinna Gounder, Yejaman etc.. He gave some amazing movies during 90s.

nilave mugam kaattu.... sindhu bhairavi melody - with veena, Bala's soft poignancy, janau's affectionate longing, tabla, ilayaraaja's signature echo flute.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ROrcvK2S98

vinatha. :musicsmile:

[app_engine]

genesis,
யார் சொன்னது வைரமுத்துவின் பாடல்களை நான் கொண்டாடவில்லை என்று :-) "கடைசியாகக்கேட்ட ராசா பாட்டு" இழையின் பக்கங்களைப்பாருங்கள். (ஒரு இழை 100 பக்கங்கள் கழிந்ததால் இப்போது இரண்டாவது இழை ஓடிக்கொண்டிருக்கிறது).

இந்த ஹப்பிலேயே அதிகபட்ச கருத்துகளை நான் எழுதியது "சலவை நிலா" பாட்டுக்காகத்தான் இருக்குமென்று நினைக்கிறேன். :wink:

அதே சமயம், அனாவசியமாக வைரமுத்துவை உயர்த்தி அதற்கு வேண்டி மனப்பூர்வமாக ராசாவைத்தாழ்த்துவதை நான் சகித்துக்கொள்வதில்லை :-) அதற்காகத்தான் இது போன்ற நினைப்பூட்டுதல்கள்.

[genesis]

ராசா தான் தமிழ்த்திரைப்பாடல்களைக்குழி தோண்டிப்புதைத்தவர் என்றும் பின்னாளில் தான் தங்க / வைர / பித்தளை வரிகள் எல்லாம் முளைத்தன என்றும் கூறித்திரிவோர் உன்னிப்பாய்க்கேட்க / கவனிக்க வேண்டிய ஒரு "வரலாற்று முக்கியத்துவம்" வாய்ந்த பாடல் இது.

இந்த வரிகளை நீங்கள் வைரமுத்துவை மனதில் வைத்து எழுதிவில்லை என்று சொல்லுங்கள், நீங்கள் ஒரு பாரபட்சமில்லாத ரசிகர் என்று ஒத்து கொள்கிறேன்.


அதே சமயம், அனாவசியமாக வைரமுத்துவை உயர்த்தி அதற்கு வேண்டி மனப்பூர்வமாக ராசாவைத்தாழ்த்துவதை நான் சகித்துக்கொள்வதில்லை :-) அதற்காகத்தான் இது போன்ற நினைப்பூட்டுதல்கள்.

இது என்ன "preemptive strike"-ஆ?

[jaiganes]

http://www.thiraipaadal.com/albums/ALBIRR00740.html

Please listen to the last song
sollum Varai kaadhal song
It is a testimony to two things
1. beauty of lyrical imagination in IRs songs (that is supposed to be non existent in recent albums)
2. Tippu's standing as a singer. I have no doubts on this guy after this song. The second charanam words and the style of singing by Tippu are first class. Of course one has to avoid comparing every singer to SPB.

This is a special song on many counts. Raaja's instrumentation is very good and it is not a very easy song by any means of imagination.
Raaja must have had some hopes on the young man who was the director for this film - He refused to give the songs to the producer who fired the director .

[genesis]

இளமையெனும் பூங்காற்று பாடியது ஓர் பாட்டு
ஒரு பொழுது ஓர் ஆசை சுகம் சுகம் அதிலே ஒரே சுகம்
ஒரே வீணை ஒரே ராகம்

தன்னை மறந்து மண்ணில் விழுந்த இளமை மலரின் மீது
கண்ணை இழந்த வண்டு
தேக சுகத்தில் கவனம் காட்டு வழியில் பயணம்
கங்கை நதிக்கு மண்ணில் அணையா?

அப்புறம் வெள்ளிக்கிழமை காலையில் கேட்க உங்களுக்கு வேற பாடல் கிடைக்கவில்லையா?

[tvsankar]

http://www.thiraipaadal.com/albums/ALBIRR00740.html

Please listen to the last song
sollum Varai kaadhal song
It is a testimony to two things
1. beauty of lyrical imagination in IRs songs (that is supposed to be non existent in recent albums)
2. Tippu's standing as a singer. I have no doubts on this guy after this song. The second charanam words and the style of singing by Tippu are first class. Of course one has to avoid comparing every singer to SPB.

This is a special song on many counts. Raaja's instrumentation is very good and it is not a very easy song by any means of imagination.
Raaja must have had some hopes on the young man who was the director for this film - He refused to give the songs to the producer who fired the director .

Malai nila paatu dhan manadhil ninra ondru.

Nice descriotion about the song.

Marketing Worldil, IR in paatai kaeka , ipadi eduthu solla vendi iruku........... :D

[venkkiram]

முன்னம் செய்த தவம் (http://www.thiraipaadal.com/albums/ALBIRR00712.html) உன்னை என்னிடத்தில் சேர்த்ததே!
தெய்வம் நேரில் வந்து அன்பில் உறவு தந்து இணைத்தது!

இந்தப் படம் வெளிவந்த ஆண்டுகளில்( 1993-1994) எங்கள் பகுதியில் கல்யாண நிகழ்ச்சிகளை வீடியோ கேசட்டில் பதிவு செய்து, புதிதாக வெளிவரும் பாடல்களில் பொறுக்கி எடுத்து கோர்ப்பது பிரபலமான இருந்த காலக்கட்டம்..

எனது ஒரு அக்காவின் திருமண இசைத் தட்டிலும் இந்தப் பாடல் இருக்கிறது. பாடல்களை எல்லாம், வீடியோ கவரேஜ் செய்பவர்களே தீர்மானித்து விடுவார்கள். அப்படிப்பட்ட பாடல்கள் சில நாட்கள் கழித்து, சில வருடங்கள் கழித்து, மீண்டும் கல்யாண தகட்டை மறுபடியும் பார்க்கும் போது, நமக்கே போரடித்து விடும் (முன்னம் செய்த தவம் அப்படிப்பட்ட பாடல் கிடையாது :) )

இதையெல்லாம் நினைவில் வைத்து, எனது கல்யாண நேரம் வந்தபோது, எந்தெந்த பாடல்கள் வரவேண்டும் என நானே என் அக்காக்களுடன் கலந்தோசித்து, பட்டியல் தயார் செய்துவிட்டேன். முழுக்க முழுக்க ராஜாவின் பழையப் பாடல்கள். COMPACT DISC எங்கள் ஊரில் அந்த அளவுக்கு அப்போது பிரபலமாக வில்லை. வழக்கமாக ஒரு வாரத்தில் வீடியோ கேசட்டைத் தருபவர்கள் எனக்கு மட்டும் பத்து நாட்கள் எடுத்துக்கொண்டார்கள். ஏனெனில் சில பாடல்கள் அவர்களுக்கு mp3-ல் அப்போது (2003) இல்லை. அதனால் கடைக்காரரே இன்னொரு பாடல் பதிவுக் கடையில் அந்தப் பாடலையெல்லாம் ஒரு SONY கேசட்டில் பதிவு செய்து, அதிலிருந்து வீடியோ கேசட்டிற்கு பதிவேற்றம் செய்திருந்தார்.

கல்யாணம் முடிந்தவுடன் கடைசியாக, இருபதடி தூரத்திலிலேயே இருக்கும் மாரியம்மன் சன்னதியில் நானும் மனைவியும் சாமி கும்பிட்டு வந்தோம். ஒரு ஐந்து நிமிடத்திற்கு சாமி கும்பிடுவதும், கோயிலை வலம் வருவதுமாக படம் பிடித்திருந்தார்கள். கேசட் வாங்கப் போகும் நேரத்தில் தான் ஞாபகம் வந்தது. நாங்கள் தேர்வு செய்து வைத்திருந்த பாடல்களில் சாமிப் பாடல் என எதுவும் இல்லை. அந்தக் கோயில் நிகழ்ச்சிகளுக்கு ஏதாவது ஒரு பாடலை தேர்வு செய்து சொதப்பிவிடப் போகிறார்கள் என நினைத்தேன்.. கடைக்காரர் என் ரசனயை புரிந்து ராஜாவின் குரலில் வந்த "ஜனனி ஜனனி" பாடலை சேர்ந்திருந்தார்.

கல்யாண கேசட்டை மீண்டும் மீண்டும் பார்ப்பதில் ஒரு தனி சுகம் தான்.