M'sian policy change in teaching Maths & Science

[nirosha sen]

For Malaysians, July 8th was a rude awakening. We were forced to be confronted with yet another change in teaching Maths & Science from English back to vernacular languages - Malay, Tamil & Mandarin.

Put in your 2 cent's worth here and share your experiences abt schooling in general. Particularly, usurping vernacular languages in favour of English as medium of instruction.

Let's hear it!!

[app_engine]

Well, I studied Maths / Science (Physics, Chemistry, Biology) in Thamizh till 12th, from the TN state board syllabus & finished school in 81.

It was awesome & fun to have these in the mother tongue. No doubt, we had to use a number of English terms / characters in equations etc, but the medium of instruction was Thamizh and the concepts were better understood.

Never felt any disadvantage at all in college (did much better than my classmates who came from 1-12 English medium, 11-12 English medium, 1-12 CBSE etc).

To this day, when it comes to simple number calc's, automatically the Thamizh "வாய்ப்பாடு" only jumps on the mind:-)

I think it's best for children to learn their mother tongue as well as to learn IN THEIR mother tongue other subjects for at least some years.

English should be learnt as a second language, which will help in college and career later. I don't think learning every subject in English during basic schooling gives any kind of great advantage in the later years.

[Thalafanz]

What a stupid government... How about those students who studied Math & Science in English all these years... It will be uneasy for them to adapt to Malay language I would say...
A big flaw in Malaysian Education System... :twisted:

[nirosha sen]

I am curious App. did you find Tamil lacking in its vocabulary in any way while studying subjects in Science/Maths?

In M'sia, the debate is the lack of terminology in Malay lang. that has most of us worried abt. It's either directly translated, in which case it sounds ridiculous, or they change the English spelling into an eroded form and call it "New Malay"!

[NOV]

of course tamil is rich in vocabulary while malay is severely lacking.

was talking to a malay friend last night - he's sending his kids to private schools. those who can afford it dont give a hoot on the govt's flip flop policy. :x

[Thalafanz]

பணம் இல்லாதவன் என்ன பன்னுவான்??? :banghead:

[NOV]

கூடுதல் பணம் சம்பாரிக்க வழிய தேடனும் :goodidea:

[app_engine]

When the 10+2 system was introduced in TN, thereby briging the "pre-university-course" from college to schools, many had a number of apprehensions, one being the medium of instruction. (In colleges, it was 99.9% English for PUC, but in +2 in schools, many started off with Thamizh medium)

I was of the 2nd batch from this +2 and hence very much exposed to the "new technical / science terms" that came along and the pain associated with it, both for text book writers and students.

It's all history now, with people like VM freely using tons of those "new terms" in film songs later :-)

Yes, Thamizh is rich in vocabulary. However, they never worried about translating a number of terms but simply transliterated them. (English does the same, it uses tons of greek / latin words freely. Almost all the "scientific names" of organisms / plants are of these languages only). Why struggle with "kaNiNi" when computer can be freely used? Or savarkkAram / salavaikkatti when soap is well known even in smallest hamlet?

What's more important is the overall construct. We use a number of "foreign" vegetables in Indian cooking (carrot? potato? cauliflower?) Same way, throw in all these terms into our sAmbAr or masAlA, that's all:-)

Theorem = தேற்றம்:-)
Theory = கொள்கை / கோட்பாடு:-)

I don't know the logic behind translating or transliterating, but it worked overall!

[NOV]

savarkkaram, kanini, min anjal, inaiyam are very very common words in malaysia. :lol:

in fact the phrase "makkal sakthi" is known to ALL malaysians including the malays and chinese. :lol2:

[app_engine]

savarkkaram, kanini, min anjal, inaiyam are very very common words in malaysia. :lol:

in fact the phrase "makkal sakthi" is known to ALL malaysians including the malays and chinese. :lol2:

That makes it even better :-) செந்தமிழும் நாப்பழக்கம் :-) If many people keep using them then there is no strangeness at all!

Personally, I'm fine with either of them (pure Thamizh word or transliteration).

Even people whose native tongue is English need to learn some new jargons when they get science education. Instructing and communicating both ways in the language that you know best are more important than translation / transliteration question, IMO.

[nirosha sen]

Sorry I don't get this, App. Transliterate is like what? Is it using the same words/terms found in English? Like 'photosynthesis' - the term is used in its original form but the explanation/meaning is in Tamil?

[Thalafanz]

[tscii:5161403818]Email circulated in my office yesterday.


Dear Parents,

PAGE Response to Minister's decision on PPSMI


GIVE PPSMI OPTION TO SELECTED SCHOOLS

Since the decision to switch to the mother tongue is to accommodate the rural students who have been made to appear to have ‘lost’ from the policy, the Parent Action Group for Education (PAGE) wishes to request to the Minister of Education to consider the PPSMI option be made to schools that desire to retain the existing policy in the form of SK(PPSMI) and SMK(PPSMI). This fourth option has been glaringly ignored.

If the Minister is willing to accommodate vernacular schools, he should rightly do the same with schools that wish to maintain status quo who have benefited from the policy and are confident of the ‘intended objective’ being met.

PAGE will be formulating a plan of action for parents that desire their schools to have the PPSMI option. In the meantime, we request that parents nationwide including Sarawak and Sabah:

1 Indicate to us the name/s of your school/s that may want to maintain PPSMI; or

2 Ask their PIBGs to liaise with us through pagemalaysia@gmail.com .

Please help by forwarding this message to as many parents as possible. We have 9,000 schools to reach!

Thank you.

For Our Children
Datin Noor Azimah Abdul Rahim
Chair
PAGE [/tscii:5161403818]

[nirosha sen]

Thanks Tala! I've already written my 1st mail to her. We need to help her out, don't you think?

My daughter's in Yr 5 and I worry for her....

[Thalafanz]

Thanks Tala! I've already written my 1st mail to her. We need to help her out, don't you think?

My daughter's in Yr 5 and I worry for her....

Yes, we have to be together in this.

My brother is in Form 1. Really pity him. :cry:

[app_engine]

Sorry I don't get this, App. Transliterate is like what? Is it using the same words/terms found in English? Like 'photosynthesis' - the term is used in its original form but the explanation/meaning is in Tamil?

Transliteration e.g. :

In English : Computer
In Thamizh : கம்ப்யூட்டர் :-)

For photosynthesis, they've got a translation much before the +2 came into picture. They taught about "ஒளிச்சேர்க்கை" in lower grade classes for decades. They had the term " பச்சையம்" for chlorophyll as well. On the other hand, when it came to chemistry in higher grades they'll freely use O2 / CO2 symbols and also use the terms oxygen / carbon di oxide transliterated. They won't struggle with உயிர் வாயு / பிராண வாயு / கரியமில வாயு in every case, though these were also used at times.

In cases like photosynthesis, we can definitely coin an equivalent term in most languages, as it's a natural phenomenon and there has got to be words that can be put together to get it.

It's those new inventions that may need transliteration in the short run (and may even find local terms in later days, like how in many places people use கணினி for computer).

[nirosha sen]

The situation has not improved. I heard that the non-malay ministers are in negotiation to keep the secondary schools from reverting but so far there's been no response from Najib, the PM!

[Thalafanz]

The situation has not improved. I heard that the non-malay ministers are in negotiation to keep the secondary schools from reverting but so far there's been no response from Najib, the PM!

எருமை மாட்டு மேல பெய்த மழை மாதிரி, ஒன்னும் நடக்கப் போவது இல்லை... :sigh2:

[NM]

have you guys in malaysia seen this? it was forwarded by a malysian friend of mine living in penenag:

Marina Mahathir says .... kampung politics to win election at the expense of our children education .....this is it!
> > Well, this is indeed a sad day. Sad because obviously
> > we don't have visionary leadership in this country, able
> > to see far into the future and determined to do what is best
> > for our children. Sad, because the leadership that we have
> > do not have the spine to stand up to minority interests.
> > Sad, because our children are sacrificed because the BN
> > wants to win one by-election (which they will probably STILL
> > lose anyway).
> > I have been crying for policies that are based on
> > empirical evidence. So now they throw in some studies they
> > have done on the implementation of the PPMSI and apparently
> > it shows that rural children are not doing as well as urban
> > children. But, when rural schools are not as well equipped
> > as urban ones, is that not to be expected? If you look at
> > performance overall, doesn't that hold true anyway? Why
> > should English be made the excuse for inequal distribution
> > of resources between rural and urban schools? Surely when
> > you see poor results from rural schools, what needs to be
> > done is to improve the teaching in those schools. Not
> > reverse an entire policy and bring urban kids down along
> > with everyone else.
> > What is this, policy of the lowest common
> > denominator?
> >
> > I think the Government is being very short-sighted.
> > Reversals of policy are never a good idea, especially when
> > you haven't really seen its final outcomes. If nothing
> > else, it shows inconsistency and lack of commitment to the
> > long run.
> >
> > The main thing is this: children learn better when they are
> > young. Even if now there is to be more emphasis on English,
> > rural kids will still be disadvantaged because they will
> > simply not have the resources to really learn the language..
> > My older daughter did her primary schooling in a national
> > school entirely in BM but it did not matter because at home
> > we speak English and there are any number of English books
> > for her to read. Now she is trilingual (along with French).
> > But kids out in the rural areas are simply not going to have
> > those resources at home. So if they are poorly taught at
> > school, then there is no hope for them ever to compete with
> > their
> > urban counterparts. That urban-rural gap will persist.
> >
> > And if they are going to hire 13,933 English teachers, why
> > not make them teach Maths and Science especially in rural
> > areas since proficiency is the language is not the issue
> > with them?
> >
> > An Indonesian friend of mine just got transfered to Belgium
> > along with her two young children. The older child aged 10
> > started taking French lessons just before she left and is
> > now fully immersed in a French-medium school in Brussels.
> > Her French is getting better by the day. That is the only
> > way to learn and she is immediately advantaged over my
> > younger daughter of the same age because she has one extra
> > language, besides Bahasa Indonesia and English.
> >
> > Speaking English is necessary in today's world because
> > it is the global language. Everywhere around the world,
> > people are learning English because that is the only way
> > they can take their place in the world, and communicate who
> > they are. Would we even
> > know what the Japanese are developing every day if someone
> > didn't translate their inventions into English and we
> > could read about them? How would we know what are the latest
> > developments in medicine if we didn't understand
> > English? Would we always have to rely on someone else to
> > translate for us?
> >
> > I'm not saying that our own languages are not
> > important. Of course they are. But can they compete with
> > English in the world today? Unless we commit to translating
> > every bit of knowledge there is into our languages, then we
> > are cutting ourselves off from knowledge. To what end?
> >
> > Or perhaps, we should just admit one thing. We don't
> > really want to compete with anyone else in the world. We
> > just want to live in our little kampungs and speak to our
> > neighbours who have to be exactly like us, and be content
> > with that. We don't want to know what's going on in
> > the world and if we need any new technology, well, we'll
> > just take whatever someone else tells us
> > is good for us. Oh, and we won't even go to any
> > international meetings of, say, Muslim scholars, because
> > even those meetings are held in English.
> >
> > I want to know one thing: if someone suggested that we
> > learn Maths and Science in Arabic, would everyone be falling
> > all over themselves to change the policy again?

[Thalafanz]

have you guys in malaysia seen this? it was forwarded by a malysian friend of mine living in penenag:

Apa lah Kak. Suday lupa ejaan untuk Penang kah??? :lol2: :yessir:

[app_engine]

I don't know about the politics behind teaching at schools in the local language in Malaysia. It's not unusual for politicians to get into some tricks such as raising racial, lingusitic and such passions and convert them into advantage for themseleves.

However, I'm pretty convinced - not only based on my own experience and that of many who grew up with me- but also based on the post-WWII resurgence of countries like Japan / Germany that English need not be the "medium of instruction" at schools.

Or the emerging of China / India as economic powerhouses recently where the primary medium of instruction in the pre-college levels is NOT English.

Sure, people should learn it as a second language and it will come handy as a communication tool in the global workspace (and, yes, definitely as a medium for higher studies). However, to thrust that as the communicating medium for children with a different mother / father tongue is a punishment IMSO.

[NOV]

The First Bungle of the 1st 100 days in office!


Jaga Bahasa Biar Jahanam Bangsa
By Syed Akbar Ali



In one of my Four Wheel Drive trips into the jungle some years ago, we stopped at a place called Cheneh in Terengganu. I remember a makcik at a roadside stall made some nice ayam goreng. My good friend Juhaidi was with me and also my two boys.

Cheneh was (and maybe still is) a typical rural backwater. The folks did not seem to know if they were coming or they were going... There was Astro but I think the favorite show was 'Tom Tom Bak'. But I did recall saying aloud that someday I hope that the folks in Cheneh would watch CNN, BBC and CBS and that we could just drive up and ask the makcik in Cheneh 'Whats on CNN today?' But I think that's not going to happen at all.

Tuan Tuan dan Puan Puan, our Prime Minister Dato Najib has made his first bungle - and within the first 100 days too. No Sirs, it is a major bungle. You have bungled big time.

Lets manage this "crisis in the making" now. First of all please stop from saying anything more about the switch from English to Malay. The more things you say, the more "face saving" devices you will need for you to swallow your pride before you can undo this mistake. But this mistake must be undone.

I just happened to be with Tun Dr Mahathir Mohammad yesterday Thursday July 9th 09 slightly after noon when the news came in that the Cabinet had decided to flip flop over the language issue.

Firstly Tun Dr Mahathir raised a simple but valid point. The main reason quoted by Tan Sri Muhyuddin to favor the switch to Malay was that the rural Malay kids were doing poorly in Maths and Science (which are taught in English) compared to the urban kids. But what about exam scores for the rural kids in all other subjects which are taught in the Malay language? Dr Mahathir said no one showed him the statistics for that. Why?

If you say that English is the reason why the rural kids are doing so poorly in Maths and Science, then by your logic the rural kids should be scoring the same as or better than the urban kids in other subjects that are taught in Malay? By your logic rural kids should be doing better than the urban kids in Sejarah, Geografi, Kemahiran Hidup, Bahasa Malaysia and other Malay language subjects.

But we know that rural kids generally score lower than urban kids in most subjects (except maybe Agama). And language has got nothing to do with it. Rural kids are usually found in lower income households, their parents are usually less educated, they have less achievement goals and so forth. That is why you call them 'children from rural areas'. They are poor people and they are underachievers.

So this comparison with rural kids and urban kids is not fully accurate (Tun Dr Mahathir used another word which I need not repeat here).

Let me give you some street feedback. At least one Internet based employment agency has instructions from its clients to completely ignore any job applicants who are graduates from UTM (University ITM). As we know UITM graduates are all Malays. They say the quality of the graduates is low and their English is bad.. They are unemployable. This is what I heard.

Another preference by another employer - a Multi National Corporation - in the job market is to take in job applicants who are graduates of IPTA (private universities) who have done twinning programs. This means their English is good and they are more marketable. Again this means Malays with poor English skills are not preferred, bottom of the line.

And here is some news from Cyberjaya. We opened up Cyberjaya and gave foreign investors much benefits and incentives to open business there. Among the foreign
investments in Cyberjaya are 'Call Centers'. Well some 'Call Centers' in Cyberjaya take in Indians as a first choice for employment. They feel that generally Indians
speak better English. Second choice are Chinese. Finally they will look at Malays as the last choice but rarely. Even with the emphasis on English the past six years, the Malays cannot speak enough English to get a job answering telephones in Call Centers in Cyberjaya. THIS IS PATHETIC!!!

We cannot shut them down or arrest them under the ISA for practising such discrimination. They come here for business. We must provide them the tools necessary to run their businesses well. We are not doing the job.

To Dato Najib and Tan Sri Muhyuddin Yassin, why are you doing this? Who agrees with you? Who are you afraid of? Takkan UMNO Johor is so powerful to frighten Muhyuddin?

Last nite I met a Deputy Minister and a well known "ultra Malay" ex-newspaper editor. The Deputy Minister said it was a bad decision to switch back to Malay. The 'ultra Malay' ex-editor was visibly upset and said "I have no comments. I don't want to say anything." I think he did not agree with the switch at all.

Another well known "ultra-ultra" Malay defender of all things Malay (if I just mention his job you will know who he is) said the switch to Malay was 'satu langkah ke belakang'.

A Tan Sri from Kelantan said in English "this is a giant leap backward for the Malays..."

In the present world, the English language is a 'life giving' language. The amount of new knowledge and new information that comes out in the English language is astounding. No one can translate all the new knowledge and information that comes out in English EACH and EVERY DAY. It is impossible.. We have to master this language. There is no other way.

Then we have the 'tidak masuk akal' ideas. Tan Sri Muhyuddin says after the switch back to Malay, he still wants to upgrade the teaching of English in the rural schools. He wants to employ about 1000 native English speakers to teach English in rural schools. By native speaker I do not know if he is referring to Mrs Naidu from Brickfields or if he wants to employ real Mat Sallehs from outside the country.

Mrs Naidu the retired English teacher will gladly teach English to our children for RM3000 per month. But we will have to pay the Mat Sallehs RM15,000 a month or more before they will come to work here.

But if that is a good idea then why not employ 1000 Mat Sallehs at RM15000 a month to teach Maths and Science in English in the rural schools?

Because according to Tan Sri Muhyuddin, it is not the school children in the rural schools who are to be faulted. The real culprits are the teachers. Muhyuddin let the cat out of the bag. Here is what Muhyuddin said (from the Press):

"It was based on empirical studies and other specialist reviews," he said. Based on studies conducted in 2008, he said, the ministry found that only a small percentage of teachers fully used English to teach the two subjects. "On average, the percentage of those using English during Mathematics and Science periods was around 53% to 58%," he said, adding that only a small number of teachers were proficient. Muhyiddin said studies carried out by local universities found that students' mastery level of English during the entire policy was around 3% while the level among rural students was low."

So don't push the blame on the rural students lah, Syewel!

It is the teachers who were malas to teach in English. And there are other reasons why some Malay teachers do not use English. Among them are religious reasons because some people believe that speaking English may lead to you 'jadi kristian'. FULAWEI! ADA BODOH MACAM INI PUN DLM KALANGAN GURU KITA KAH?



Even in the towns (including Kuala Lumpur ) it is also considered "showing off" if Malay people speak English. So there are other quite illogical reasons why Malay teachers are shy to speak and teach in English. Don't just blame it (and quite wrongly too) on the rural school children. That is not correct.

And even if what Tan Sri Muhyuddin is saying is indeed true, why burden the urban kids and dim their chances at a better future just because the rural kids are having problems with English?

Urban kids are usually the children of parents who are more educated, who work in offices, run businesses and generally earn a higher income and enjoy a better standard of living. The rural folks are usually much poorer than the urban folks.

That is why we have to make sure that the rural folks get the same or better opportunities to get out of the poverty cycle and move up in life so that they too can enjoy a standard of living like the urban people. A good education and the ability to converse in English is definitely one way up.

But what this policy reversal has done is to lower the entire national average. Instead of moving the rural people up the ladder, we are now moving moving the urban folks down to the level of the rural people. We are lowering the averages. Hang tak payah jadi pandai macam aku, biar aku jadi bodoh macam hang!

We are nailing the Malays inside the language cocoon. We are also creating a "non English understanding rural poor" versus an "English speaking urban elite" divide. The Malays who cannot speak English will be left further and further behind. BUT YOU THINK UMNO CARES FOR YOU ????

The English speaking urban folks (Malays, Chinese and Indians) will move light years ahead of the non English speaking folks. There will most definitely be an English speaking elite in the country. More problems will arise.

Then we have also allowed International Schools in the country to be opened to all Malaysians. We also have foreign universities like Nottingham and Monash. We are basically denying many Malays from qualifying to enter these universities and international schools. They can go to UITM and become more 'cocoon infested' and unemployable.

But very, very few kids make it to university or college in the first place. Only 2% to 3% of the population goes to university anyway. The large bulk of our young kids will become school leavers (SPM or PMR) with no employable skills, no knowledge of "life giving" English. Their future is doomed.

Akhir sekali saya nampak peluang hidup bagi budak Melayu dari kampong menjadi lagi tipis. Siapa yang ada tanah getah, mungkin akan kerja potong getah saja di kampong. Kalau tak ada tanah getah, depa akan berhijrah ke bandar dan pekan untuk mencari kerja sebagai office boy, messenger dan peon. TERIMA KASIH AJELAH KEPADA GOMEN NAJIS!!!

They may even think that office boy, messenger and peon are three different careers.

[app_engine]

Digression, somewhat related:

http://www.ptinews.com/news/245460_Sibal-bats-for-teaching-Hindi-in-all-schools

Something that was kicked out of TN during 60's is trying to make a come back (though its imposition through out the country in various forms had not stopped, it wasn't in the schools at least)

[joe]

Something that was kicked out of TN during 60's is trying to make a come back

Never Mind ..We will kick out one more time. :)

[P_R]

Something that was kicked out of TN during 60's is trying to make a come back

Never Mind ..We will kick out one more time. :)

I am a little worried now because of the existing centre-state relationship.The ideological opposition that existed last time made the resistance successful.

What is annoying is Kapil Sibal suggesting we will finally reach a situation where Hindi would be the lingua franca of India. I can understand the previous generation people on the Hindi side, Gobind Ballab Pant, Ram Manohar Lohia and to some extent even Gandhi wanting the population to be weaned away from English (a colonial vestige etc.). Pant was beaten by English policemen which inflicted a permanent damage on his neck, which always shook slightly that for the rest of his life.

But so many years later, why will an articulate lawyer like Kapil Sibal want to 'eventually' do away with English. From what can his discomfort possibly stem ?

>dig>Relevant here is Ramachandra Guha's interesting article in the EPW about the Rise and Fall of the Bilingual Intellectual. (I see it has become archived now and requires a login). Where he says there is a huge scarcity of people in the next generation of writers - particularly academics - who can write scholarly articles in their mother tongue as well as English. The division stems from the English educated gen next being largely comfortable ONLY in English and the new generation learners from second rung cities/towns who are conversant only in their own tongue.
</dig<

[app_engine]

Something that was kicked out of TN during 60's is trying to make a come back

Never Mind ..We will kick out one more time. :)

I don't have that kind of a confidence now, Joe. I guess the sentiments in TN have radically changed on many things from 60's.

Moreover, DMK is dependent on Cong-I too much now and it kind of reflected in the SL issue overall.

I won't be surprised if they come up with a bunch of flowery words to justify intro of Hindi into TN school system. Karunanidhi may still resist, but he's too old to make much difference IMO and the next generation is not so much anti-caste / anti-religion / anti-Hindi etc.

[joe]

We no need to be anti-Hindi ,infact we shouldn't be against any language and everybody have freedom to learn any language at their expense and interest .But we will be anti- imposing any language upon us ..I have confidence on our people.

[P_R]

app it is not about anti-Hindu. But look at the tone of Kapil Sibal's statement.

It will integrate. Eh ? Sounds like asking 'peripherals' plug into the mainland to complete the nation.

Secondly he says this will eventually lead to having our own lingua franca in place of English.

That is so anachronistic

[P_R]

But we will be anti- imposing any language upon us ..
Exactly...I think Hindi spread more due to Bollywood than prachar sabha. Before Hindi teacher taught me I knew to count ek do theen till 13 :lol2:


I have confidence on our people.
1) Perhaps but who are the politicians who are going to stand up.
2) Even many of the people, though all I am likely to have seen are urban only, don't get exactly why it needs to be resisted. i.e. the threat of cultural dilution (getting Hindi to be the spoken language at work as Kapil Sibal wants !). I believe many will fall if Hindi is sold as a quaint "useful career development skill".

[app_engine]

Correct, I meant "anti-hindi-imposition" :-)

The current political generation has not much ideologies at all, IMO. Possibly their ideology is to build-a-materially-prosperous-TN (and not worry much about any ideological rhetorics).

In a sense, they reflect a typical businessman -say 'yes' to superstitions, 'yes' to alliances of any kind, 'yes' to street smartness but 'no' to ideologies / emotions. Biggest example is the handling of Ilangai ThamizharkaL (making extra security on the coasts, for e.g. and apathetic treatment of refugees in camps).

May be, when it directly touches the lives of village ThamizharkaL (like Hindi in school), there may be a huge reflection in the next election. (ஆட்டக்கடிச்சு, மாட்டக்கடிச்சு...)

[joe]

PR,
கடந்த காலத்தில் இந்தி திணிப்பு போராட்டத்தின் வெற்றி வெறும் திமுக-வின் வெற்றியல்ல ..திமுக தூண்டி விட்டு தான் மக்கள் போராடினார்கள் என்பதை விட ,மக்கள் உணர்வு இருந்த பக்கத்தில் நின்று கொண்டு திமுக அதன் பலனை அனுபவித்தது என்பது தான் எனது புரிதல்.

மற்ற பல விடயங்களில் நம் தமிழக மக்களை நம்ப முடியாது என்றாலும் ,இந்த விடயத்தில் இது 'நீறு பூத்த நெருப்பு ' என்பது என் கணிப்பு .பெரும்பான்மை நகர் சாரா மக்கள் இன்னும் விழிப்போடு தான் இருக்கிறார்கள் ..அவர்களை முன்பு போல நான் குறைத்து மதிப்பிடுவதில்லை .

தப்பித்தவறி மத்திய அரசு இத்தகைய முயற்சியில் இறங்கினால் தமிழகத்தில் மத்திய அரசு மோசமான விளைவுகளை சந்திக்க வேண்டியிருக்கும் .

[Plum]

PR,
கடந்த காலத்தில் இந்தி திணிப்பு போராட்டத்தின் வெற்றி வெறும் திமுக-வின் வெற்றியல்ல ..திமுக தூண்டி விட்டு தான் மக்கள் போராடினார்கள் என்பதை விட ,மக்கள் உணர்வு இருந்த பக்கத்தில் நின்று கொண்டு திமுக அதன் பலனை அனுபவித்தது என்பது தான் எனது புரிதல்.

மற்ற பல விடயங்களில் நம் தமிழக மக்களை நம்ப முடியாது என்றாலும் ,இந்த விடயத்தில் இது 'நீறு பூத்த நெருப்பு ' என்பது என் கணிப்பு .பெரும்பான்மை நகர் சாரா மக்கள் இன்னும் விழிப்போடு தான் இருக்கிறார்கள் ..அவர்களை முன்பு போல நான் குறைத்து மதிப்பிடுவதில்லை .

தப்பித்தவறி மத்திய அரசு இத்தகைய முயற்சியில் இறங்கினால் தமிழகத்தில் மத்திய அரசு மோசமான விளைவுகளை சந்திக்க வேண்டியிருக்கும் .

Exactly! This is like thoongara bhoodathai ezhuppi vudaradhu. I say, ban bollywood from South India!

[equanimus]

This surely looks like a non-starter, does it not?

[equanimus]

Or the emerging of China / India as economic powerhouses recently where the primary medium of instruction in the pre-college levels is NOT English.
I don't know much about China, but isn't it simply incorrect to suggest that the India which has emerging as an economic powerhouse is actually backed up by the public school system in which the primary medium of instruction is NOT English?

[app_engine]

Why not equa, it's not just me but I personally know tons of villager-engineers who came off of Thamizh medium (TN state board) and have been instrumental in a number of fields of Indian tech uprise...

Ofcourse the intro of private engg colleges was another key factor in increasing the man power output but it all started with +2 revolution IMO. Prior to that, college going itself was a big deal for many.

In any case, keeping things to "a limited, privileged few" by whatever means will only end up like the clergy / laity of religions (e.g. scriptures in latin or similar alien language).

Instructing lower grades in a foreign language achieves exactly that i.e. limiting quality education to a privileged few and making a great divide!

[joe]

tons of villager-engineers who came off of Thamizh medium (TN state board)

I am one of them . :D

[equanimus]

Why not equa, it's not just me but I personally know tons of villager-engineers who came off of Thamizh medium (TN state board) and have been instrumental in a number of fields of Indian tech uprise...
app_engine,
Don't mistake me, my point is NOT that there are not many people who came from Thamizh medium who have been instrumental in the economic growth in their respective fields, but that it wasn't the Tamil medium that actually enabled them do this. The English medium-educated people have also been doing the same all along, and quite clearly, in greater proportion (i.e., it takes less for an English medium-educated student to go past the "hurdles," so to say).

In any case, keeping things to "a limited, privileged few" by whatever means will only end up like the clergy / laity of religions (e.g. scriptures in latin or similar alien language).

Instructing lower grades in a foreign language achieves exactly that i.e. limiting quality education to a privileged few and making a great divide!
I seriously doubt this (and I understand that this is the crux on which you base your argument). Basically, I don't understand how English is a "natural" medium for some people and not so for others. (And doesn't the lack of public schools in English medium keep things to "a limited privileged few?" Considering that most private schools are in English medium and people who can afford lap them up.)

[app_engine]

equa,
English medium educated people were a majority in engg. prior to the 80's and the fruitage of education / technology etc were limited to a few city-born with very limited diverse talents coming into the market. We didn't have a whole state of engineers. Ofcourse, there was limitation in the # of engg colleges but even those were unreachable for most villagers, IMO, as English medium educated people dominated the college admissions prior to +2.

It all changed totally afterwards (i.e. in the TN context) which enabled 1000's more taking up college education - albeit with difficulties in the first year due to change in medium but most coped up very well as they know basic English. (A number of semester toppers in our set at REC Trichy were from Thamizh medium, for e.g.)

This is a factual history that happened right in front of my eyes for a generation.

It's a question of having available 100 "extraordinary" brains v/s 10000 above-average brains .

I don't think English was/ is / will be a "natural" medium for most children in TN for basic education.

[equanimus]

app_engine,
I think you're missing my point here. I'm not at all saying that education in Tamil medium doesn't work. My question is, what does it enable? How exactly is anyone better off being educated in Tamil? That's the answer I'm trying to seek.

equa,
English medium educated people were a majority in engg. prior to the 80's and the fruitage of education / technology etc were limited to a few city-born with very limited diverse talents coming into the market. We didn't have a whole state of engineers.
This is of course true, and clearly we're not arguing about this here.

Ofcourse, there was limitation in the # of engg colleges but even those were unreachable for most villagers, IMO, as English medium educated people dominated the college admissions prior to +2.
This is again a bit tangential, but as you say, the lack of engineering colleges was the most important factor here. How would you explain the domination of English medium-educated people before the engineering colleges boom happened?

It's a question of having available 100 "extraordinary" brains v/s 10000 above-average brains .
Aren't you contradicting yourself a bit here, as you seem to concede that the professional education system ends up assimilating fewer people from the Tamil medium? Your point essentially boils down to saying that a talented student educated in Tamil medium will be just as much successful as equally talented English medium students. But I'm always cautious of upholding merit above anything else. What happens to the "average brains" educated in Tamil medium? This is where my point that "it takes less for an English medium-educated student to go past the "hurdles," so to say," takes greater importance.

I don't think English was/ is / will be a "natural" medium for most children in TN for basic education.
This is the most crucial point, and I'm not sure you respond to the point I raised in the last post. It is indeed not the "natural" medium for most children in TN. If it is not so, why do you say "[i]nstructing lower grades in a foreign language achieves exactly that i.e. limiting quality education to a privileged few and making a great divide?" What is the argument against not having English as the medium of instruction in all public schools? (Except the most familiar point that we never had enough English-medium faculty to do so? Even if this is the argument, it'd raise more questions than answers. Why the difference in the medium of instruction among different flavours of public schools -- the prestigious ones like the KVs in the IIT campuses and those at the villages, and so on.)

[P_R]

My question is, what does it enable? How exactly is anyone better off being educated in Tamil? There is some stuff about children absorbing better in their mother tongue. Personally I am not so sure about that.

I would emphasize that it is important from the PoV of enabling the language. There are fewer and fewer people sufficient conversant in vernacular to read/write technically in most fields. And this comfort gap that is 'leaving' the vernacular behind is happening due to the universal adoption of the English medium of instruction.

[equanimus]

My question is, what does it enable? How exactly is anyone better off being educated in Tamil? There is some stuff about children absorbing better in their mother tongue. Personally I am not so sure about that.
Yes, this line of argument ties in with the notion of a "natural medium," which implies that the people who do end up getting educated in the English medium are in some ways more enabled to absorb the same stuff in English.

I would emphasize that it is important from the PoV of enabling the language. There are fewer and fewer people sufficient conversant in vernacular to read/write technically in most fields. And this comfort gap that is 'leaving' the vernacular behind is happening due to the universal adoption of the English medium of instruction.
If this is the concern, one has to be careful about the "sacrifices" (the whos and whats) involved, so to say. Personally, I don't see how learning Tamil as the "second language" wouldn't help correct this. Also note, the more commonplace English becomes, the less "hip" it sounds. Admittedly I can't place a strong case for this (and it perhaps borders on wishful thinking), but may be, it'd eventually be more like a "language of business" in most parts of our world.

[P_R]

If this is the concern, one has to be careful about the "sacrifices" (the whos and whats) involved, so to say. I don't claim to have a solution.And I see individual deviation is obviously going to be detrimental.


Personally, I don't see how learning Tamil as the "second language" wouldn't help correct this. I think that is what is relegating the language to only lore and literature.

Without anthropology to zoology being read/written in the local languages we are rendering it 'incapable' of going forward.

[app_engine]

Aren't you contradicting yourself a bit here, as you seem to concede that the professional education system ends up assimilating fewer people from the Tamil medium? Your point essentially boils down to saying that a talented student educated in Tamil medium will be just as much successful as equally talented English medium students. But I'm always cautious of upholding merit above anything else. What happens to the "average brains" educated in Tamil medium? This is where my point that "it takes less for an English medium-educated student to go past the "hurdles," so to say," takes greater importance.


Agreed that I've not expressed myself clearly (actually scoring some same-side goals :) in the process )

Though I cited some examples of Thamizh medium students doing well at engg colleges, that was not my main point (i.e. a Thamizh medium educated brain will do better than English medium educated brain etc was not the point). It was just to show that the "perceived hurdles" aren't too great at the point of higher education. Even if they exist, they are definitely much less troublesome than the hurdles for someone who lives in an average Thamizh neighborhood to learn every basic concept (in lower grades, e.g. tables) using English, in my observation.

Also I didn't elaborate on the +2 phenomenon.

My point was, just on the engg education, i.e. before +2, very less students from Thamizh medium schools even approached PUC, worrying about the "perceived hurdles" that go with the medium change. With lot of them filtered out there, the trickle to bachelors was too small (especially from villages / small towns). +2 changed all that and we had the floodgates open for a lot more of man power availability within a very short time.

The difference with this new stream is majority didn't have to struggle a lot in elementary education to get the basics into the brain (no overload of learning them in a foreign tongue). So very easy availability of a vast pool of resources which wouldn't have been possible otherwise. All of these had the distinct advantage of learning a lot of math / science concepts without having to memorize / get baffled with tons of new words.

The only other way to achieve such availability was to change the millions of families to start using English in everyday life, including at home (like some Indians in U.S. do) so that kids (and teachers) will be at ease at school, teaching simple things as tables instead of 'vAippAdu' :-) That way they don't have to memorize tons of words / definitions but take in the concepts "naturally".

(Unfortunately, this is kind of forced upon people indirectly in the last decade or so with the fancy of "private schools". I feel this is unnatural and autocratic; and will make a great divide between privileged and otherwise; also making people dish out a lot of money to get very less in return.

OTOH, in the earlier system, most were "aided schools" (privately managed but gov funded as the St Mary's / St Joseph's kind) and they patronized Thamizh medium to help reduce the divide greatly in TN)

[joe]

app_engine :thumbsup:

[rajraj]

joe: When I was a professor I had a Japanese student in my course on Logic Design. She always carried a dictionary with her ( English-Japanese-English). One day she walked into my office and asked me whether she could bring the dictionary to the tests. I said OK as long as there was no notes written in it. She brought the dictionary to all tests and the final examination. Guess what? She came out at the top beating all those who were educated in English medium in high schools (in the US). There is a lot of hype about English medium in Tamilnadu. In my days you could count the number of schools offering Englsih medium, most of them Anglo-Indian schools. :)

[app_engine]

equa,
Going back to my original statement that India / China are becoming economic powerhouses despite most part of primary education in local language...

Well, even if I'm willing to concede that the local language factor for basic edu has not contributed at all to the growth (or not contributed significantly), at the minimum it didn't HINDER them from performing good internationally (add Japan / Germany / France etc to this list as well).

That way the fear of Malaysians that getting their children's basic schooling in vernacular will hinder the individual's or country's economic progress is totally unfounded, IMSO.

OTOH, such education may in fact help other languages flourish and keep the overall "culture" fabric a lot more diversified than a monotonous "Coke-McD" culture :-)

[joe]

இந்தி கற்பது பாவச்செயலா ? - discussion
http://jaihindpuram.blogspot.com/2009/08/blog-post_28.html

i also posted few comments there.

[app_engine]

Possible future ideas of Kapil Sibal :

Step 1 : Make Hindi learning compulsory as language 3 in TN

Step 2a: Make Hindi the "instructing medium" for other subjects in TN

Step 2b: Drop English as language 2 in TN (or make it "optional") and make Thamizh as language 2 in TN

Step 3: Make Thamizh as "optional language 2"

Step 4: Change medium of instruction for "non-professional" colleges to Hindi

Step 5: Change medium of instruction for professional colleges to Hindi

எல்லாரும் ஜோராக்கை தட்டுங்கோ :-)

[Plum]

இந்தி கற்பது பாவச்செயலா ? - discussion
http://jaihindpuram.blogspot.com/2009/08/blog-post_28.html

i also posted few comments there.

Joe, no point arguing. They always loop back to if you can accept English, why not Hindi?
"Why not" can be prefixed to anything. There is no point arguing with people who use that as basis for their logic.

[app_engine]

A few questions for my understanding of the situation in "developed" countries:

Is English taught as a compulsory (second) language in Japan / Germany / France / Holland and such countries?

Also, is English the medium of instruction at schools (upto 12th grade) while the local language is just learnt as a "2nd language" or "optional local language" ?

What is the medium of instruction in "majority" of universities in such developed countries, for engg / sciences? Is it English or the local language?

[app_engine]

Digression (somewhat related)

Nepal's VP loses his post because of refusal to take oath in Nepali.

http://dailythanthi.com/article.asp?NewsID=511263&disdate=9/1/2009

[app_engine]

http://www.dinamalar.com/new/fpnnewsdetail.asp?News_id=4807

Looks like DMK still holds on to the 2 language policy and does not support the imposition of the third :-)

[Sudhaama]

.

.Suicidal approach... killing COMPETITIVE PROSPECTS of their Posterity.


...Let us learn... from the BITTER EXPERIENCES of the Great CHINA and JAPAN.!



For Malaysians, July 8th was a rude awakening. We were forced to be confronted with yet another change in teaching Maths & Science from English back to vernacular languages - Malay, Tamil & Mandarin.

Put in your 2 cent's worth here and share your experiences abt schooling in general. Particularly, usurping vernacular languages in favour of English as medium of instruction.

Let's hear it!!

It is high time... that all the World Governments... understand and well- realise... as well as FORESEE...

..that the present FAST trend is GLOBALISATION..... in all spheres, one after another.

..especially in Science, Engineering and Technology fields.

And the future World will be the SCIENTIFICALLY and INDUSTRIALLY ADVANCED Nations all over the Globe....

Most of the Careers will be Technical, Commerce and Trade oriented.

...with ample chances for Scientific advancements... unlike the present era.

Even Farming and Agriculture will be so advanced that just with a few Technical employees... vast Field- areas can be managed.

And the Uneducated will be CONDEMNED by the Society... beause there will be pratically NO EMPLOYMENT for the UNSKILLED Labourers.

..since all the Operations will be MECHANISED... or COMPUTERISED.

..because of Time-demands and FAST RESULTS.

Employment for every world Citzen... at one or the other stage of Career, will be in one or more different countries... apart from his Nation of birth.

So one common World Language.. preferably for Science-knowledge.. just to understand at least.. is quite IMPERATIVE..

...and that can be ONLY ENGLISH...

YES... MULTI-LINGUISTIC Europian settlers in USA.. realised it LONG LONG AGO.

Japan and China... is realising it now.. too late.

No doubt everyone's Mother tongue should be the Top-priority ..TO BEGIN WITH.!... during Elementary School studies mostly.

But the Subjects of MATHEMATICS AND SCIENCE... must be taught through ENGLISH MEDIUM ONLY..... from the High School classes...

...for ALL THE GLOBAL STUDENTS... henceforth...

..if we are REALLY WISE enough with FORE-SIGHT.!!!
.