Sindhanai Selvar Dr.Kamal HaasaR - favourite movies,scenes 2

[Saai]

Fina frame happiness'ku santhOshapadurathu - is an insult to the movie and Kamal I would say.

final framela sandhoshapaduthuradhu is an insult

if it has been the opposite - emotional manipulation, unrealistic etc etc

:confused2:

[P_R]

dream with the opening of the gates of his “home,”
Yeah...I noticed this after you mentioned it once.



In other words, to this film, the essence of Krishna’s stepping-out isn’t an inward-looking tale that manufactures an elegiac melodrama, but an outward-looking tale of what he actually sees when he gets out.
Interesting POV (of course I heard from you earlier). But the inward-looking elegiac tone is very much there, no?

What he sees/goes through, is what it is about: காணாத சோகமெல்லாம் கண்கள் கண்டதடி
But there is a wistfulness in காவேரி தீரம் விட்டு கால்கள் வந்ததடி.

So I won't say 'big bad world out there' is a bad reading. A uber-simplistic version being Blessy/Mammootty's film paLunku.
Of course Mahanadhi is so much more. No denying that.


Krishna raises his voice against the corruptions and transgressions in the prison. Krishna raises these questions not simply because he can’t stand wrongdoings at a personal level (insofar as one could risk such a coordinate!), but also because he’s not used to being so powerless.
Very good point.

The interval shot...light...up on a platform with 'minion' heads in the foreground underlines this.
The very next frame is awesome. Old prisoner sawing, Thulukkanam exits the frame uncomfortably. A moment later, we see why. Krishna walks into the frame. The old man says: vaNakkam thalaivA :rotfl: @ the choice of voice.

..and then the cop literally says: nee dhaan thalaivan-nu mudivAnadhukku appuram, poRuppu eduththukkaama irundhA eppadi?

[sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar]

Aamaa, final framela santhosappadramaari vechaa kamalukku insult, sila MD oda post 2K songs list panrathu avarukku insult. aanaa silar sila actorkku fan aa irukkurathu mattum avarukku insult illai. superb!

innoru pakkamum oru comedy reel oduthu, aanaa athai yerkanave underline panni sollitten.

silar ellaam orualavukku mela correction solrathai vida periya insult, kamalukku vera enna irukka mudiyum?! yeppaa, "tamilpaper.net Mahadevan" e paravaalla polarukku!

[Roshan]

final framela sandhoshapaduthuradhu is an insult

if it has been the opposite - emotional manipulation, unrealistic etc etc

:confused2:

Oru balance irukkanum solRaen.. pessimism was 99.9 % and the last frame happiness was .1%. Kamal himself would be disappointed to see people highlighting the .1% as I am sure that was not his idea. Venkiram's post has beautifuly described as to how it is unrealistic. And that made others who are of the same opinion post their views. Illaennaa orae thisaila - cult classic, master piece - IMDb top 10 range'la discussion pOi irukkum. This is not a movie from Vasantha Balan, it's from Kamal, therefore the expectation becomes high in terms of being 'realistic'. In my circle many who had watched the movie had said "nalla padam aanaa ippadiyellaam nadakkuRathu saathiyamilla". This movie is nice in terms of making and performance of Kamal, but 'realistic' appadinnu varumpOthu it definitely falls short. Anyway, idha paththi pOthiya aLavu paesiyaachu so no point continuing. As in all hub discussions let us agree to disagree :)

PS: And personally I dont prefer nenjil araiyum sOga movies - specially if the maker is trying to do some "unarchi surandal" to get his point across to the audience. I dont want to get cheated that way. Moondraam piRai climaxkooda ippallaam enakku pidikkiRathilla. And this doesnt mean I expect a happy ending in all movies.

[Saai]

Oru balance irukkanum solRaen.. pessimism was 99.9 % and the last frame happiness was .1%. Kamal himself would be disappointed to see people highlighting the .1% as I am sure that was not his idea. Venkiram's post has beautifuly described as to how it is unrealisti

yarume apdi sollaliye..

There is hope and happiness throughout the movie. He has time for romance after getting prisoned, boy is happy as ever doing theru vithai, even the girl is shown so "casually" reading a book before kamal enters her room... she was shown having friends and guardian even in that place. I am not denying that lots of things happen to people in the movie...but everybody holds onto something available to them from wherever they are and moves on...Actually people in the movie are too optimistic ....atlast they get united as a family as well... those two scenes - the boy joining kamal and kamal taking away his daughter through the ganges could be called as a couple of the most satisfying images ever.

[Roshan]

Vicky,

The point is, I dont mind the sOgam unless it is 'thiNikkappatta' sOgam. In Mahanadhi it is thiNikkappatta sOgam. For a person like Krishanasaamy, who's got noble qualities, well respected in his native (initial scenes as I mentioned earlier), fairly wealthy, suddenly everything goes against him and there's no body to support is what we say is totally unrealistic. The sequences that follow is a result of this 'unrealistic' approach and that's why I feel it is "thiNikkappatta sOgam'.

[sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar]

Saai, ferfect as usual! The girl, even after coming from such a life/place, feels a bit cool that her dad has come, she points places to her dad, while in that boat song. Even that thookathil munagal is after all, something which happens in sleep. She shud feel great happiness as she got back her family, though paatti was gone, she now has a new affectionate chithi. ithu ellaam actually hidden part of the story. all this whud hav happened before Krishnasaami again landing in jail. Just that there is no time to show all this.

Kamal very clearly said in interviews that Mahanathi is his fears as a dad and a citizen. nothing more than that. And to prove this point, the screenplay has to have some too bad moments.

Logic gets beating here and there, athukku enna seyya. Even that boy returning home, asks about her sister only the next morning, which is perfectly fine but howcome krishnasaami didn't ask a word to the boy, before he falls asleep, the previous night!

[Roshan]

Anyway, pOthiyaLavu paesiyaachu on this topic. I have nothing more to say. Unrealistic avvaLavuthaan. mathapadi nalla padam but definitely not THE best/great type of movie IMO.

[Plum]

Equar :clap: = especially the post on the ending. happiness-sadness mixku percentage formulalAm vechurukkAngadiyOv! S Dhaanukku thirakadhai consultant thEvai padudhAnnu kELunga. indha style "story improvement" ellAm avar mAdhiri producer kittE irundhu dhAn idhukku munnAdi kEttu irukkEn.

If Krishnasamy hadnt gone through what he did, he wouldnt have been simmering enough to do what he does to Venkatachalam. And if he doesnt do that, Kamal could have safely not made Mahanadhi and acted in a Shankar extravaganza in those 3 months or whatever time he took to shoot Mahanadhi. There is a point to the movie which equa and p-r have written about beautifully. adhu puriyalaina, idhai oru P Vasu padam mAdhiri nenaichu pichu pichu dhAn review paNNa thONum. adhu thappillai kEttELA? Sindhikkum dhaLAmnu oNNu irukkillayA?


AS for his thoughts on religion seeping into his movies, I find it msotly objectionbable for deeply dogmatic people who cannot face the rational questions he raises on religion. Nothing surprising about that. This is a defence mechanism, an excuse for them. Except when it comes across like caricature as in Dasavatharam, he does extremely well to integrate these into his characters and screenplay very well unobtrusively. People just do a surface reading but have the confidence to talk like LLD. That is also fine. That is what democracy demands.

[SoftSword]

Logic gets beating here and there, athukku enna seyya. Even that boy returning home, asks about her sister only the next morning, which is perfectly fine but howcome krishnasaami didn't ask a word to the boy, before he falls asleep, the previous night!

i remember the boy is brought home when he was sleeping in the middle of the night... thoongi elundha next morning... and unluckily the boy does not blabber in his sleep like the gal does...
is there any other scenes shown inbetween?

[sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar]

Perfect post, Plum!

[app_engine]

Good (but foolish) man going through the worst in life but end-scene is subham : Merchant of Venice (Shakespeare kAviyam)

Also mentioned the play that Gandhiji liked the most (uNmai mattumE pEsubavar attacked by "Vashistar vAyAl Brahma Rishi")

[sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar]

app_engine never posts in movie threads. but if he is regularly posting here means, that too is an yardstick for this movie's great quality.

Regular movies attract most of the movie fans. only great of the greatest movie attract eccentric, rare fans.

[ajithfederer]

That is very true.



AS for his thoughts on religion seeping into his movies, I find it msotly objectionbable for deeply dogmatic people who cannot face the rational questions he raises on religion. Nothing surprising about that.

[sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar]

He has said many many things when it comes to religion, caste, discrimination, racism, rationalism etc. So there may be few bugs too. We need to agree that too.

[Bala (Karthik)]

Nandri Equa for finally posting on the film! :thumbsup:

[Roshan]

Regarding KadavuL topic - he's been repetitive for sometime now both onscreen and off screen. It sounds more like an obsession and it is becoming glaringly obvious how he tries to force such things in. His so called poetries in MMA was such a forced attempt which did not go well at all (and glad they lifted it). It's an obsession similar to his obsession for certian casts like Ramesh Arvind, SB, Oorvasi and also his obsession for naming gimmicks. And as SS pointed out his comedy flicks are also getting repetitive. Puthusaa yOsikkanum. That's an expectation as a fan. Ethana naaLaikku Hey Ram, Virumaandi, Thevar Magan paththi paesittu irukka mudiyum.

PS: When it comes to art, entha oru vishayatheyum aLavOda, subtle'aa sonaathaan athukku oru azhagu, value irukkum. If you keep repeating like a keeral vizhuntha kittappa record, it loses all values and becomes a laughing stock after a certain point.

[SoftSword]

i just meant his gang for doing comedy movies... not generally all this comedy movies...
MMA was superb until the usual crazyishq aalmaaraattam...
even otherwise comedydhaan neraya panniyaachae... so.

[venkkiram]

காட்சிகள் அப்படியே கவிதைகளாக நிறைந்திருக்கும் படம் மஹாநதி என்பதில் இருவேறு கருத்துக்கள் இருக்கவே முடியாது. கிருஷ்ணசாமி விடுதலை ஆகி வெளியே செல்லும் முன்பு தன்னை முழுமையாக இந்த நகர சமுதாயம், வாழ்க்கைக்கு தயார் படுத்திக் கொள்ளவும், தன அகத்தை மென்மேலும் செதுக்கிக்கொள்ளவும் பொருந்தும் ஒரு காட்சியாக.. மரச் சட்டத்தை இழைத்துக்கொண்டிருப்பார். (Forgot the Tamizh name for Hand plane! Poor memory!)

[Roshan]

i just meant his gang for doing comedy movies... not generally all this comedy movies...
MMA was superb until the usual crazyishq aalmaaraattam...
even otherwise comedydhaan neraya panniyaachae... so.

I also didnt mean all. Repetitiveness is becoming obvious appadinnuthaan solla vanthaen. And I am sort of positive that VR is going to be something different altogether.

[Plum]

Aiyaiyo VR "different" virumbigaLukku pander paNdrA mAdhiri irukka koodAdhE :fingerscrossed:. Mee levelkku shankar garu unnAru kAdhAndi? MA vAdini endhuku mee dhaLamlO operate cheyyamaNtAru? Content gurinhi bAdha padaru - EdhO okati differentgA choopinchi 3 ghantalu mAyalO padesthE sari - itlAnti vALLu endhuku proper kamalahasan chitram choodAlani aasha paduithunnaaru? Sangarji manirathnam lAnti Edho okati chEsi meeru edho interpret loosegA chEsElA cinema theesthunna directors unnAru kaadhA? VALLa dhegira mee abhilaashalu theerchuko kodadhA? MEmE dhorikkamvA?

[ajithfederer]

Aaha Plum, Manchi maatalu abbayi!!!! :thumbsup:

[V_S]

Plum gAru, ithu nyAyamA. OnnumE puriyala.

BTW, venkki, very nice post. Mahanadhi mAdhiri ellaam inimE padam varuvathu, miga miga kadinam. It is indeed a poetry.

[venkkiram]

திருநாகேஸ்வரம் என்ற ரயில் நிலைய கான்கிரிட் பலகையை தனியாக படம் பிடித்து காட்டியிருக்கத் தேவையில்லை. காவிரி டெல்டாவில் எதோ ஒரு ஊராக இருந்துட்டு போகட்டுமே! ஆனால் அந்தப் பலகையில் இந்தி எழுத்துக்கள் தார் பூசி அழிக்கப்பட்டிருக்கும்! எனக்கென்னமோ ஊர் பெயர் மட்டும் தெரிந்தால் போதாது! தமிழக இந்தி எதிர்ப்பையும் வெளிச்சம் போட்டு காட்டனும் என நினைத்திருக்கிறார் கமல் எனத் தோன்றுகிறது. ஏனெனில் பெரும்பாலான தமிழ்ப் பட ரயில் நிலைய பலகைகளில் தார் போட்டு அழிக்கப்பட்ட இந்தி எழுத்துக்களை காணமுடியாது!

[AravindMano]

தமிழக இந்தி எதிர்ப்பையும் வெளிச்சம் போட்டு காட்டனும் என நினைத்திருக்கிறார் கமல் எனத் தோன்றுகிறது. ஏனெனில் பெரும்பாலான தமிழ்ப் பட ரயில் நிலைய பலகைகளில் தார் போட்டு அழிக்கப்பட்ட இந்தி எழுத்துக்களை காணமுடியாது!

நீங்களே பதிலும் சொல்லியிருக்கீங்களே.

[Plum]

venkki - adhula ungaLukku EdhAvadhu objection irukkA? (unga posta pArtha objectionOda solRa mAdhiri theriyala irundhAlum confirm paNNikka kEkkaREn). Enna, this is a typical objection to kamal from "nationalists". adhAvadhu, tmizhaguthula indhi edhirppu irukkungaradhai kAtradHE kuththam avangaLukku. And this extrapolate into associating him with every anti-BJP sentiment and seeing for non-existent anti-religion messages - I mean Kamal's thoughts on religion are not so binary as these specific people object to.

Looking at some specific posters here and their suggestions on Mahandhi, I wonder what Kamal had to go through similar minds from the industry - S Dhanu is a name that comes to the mind that thinks exactly like some of the posters here - and having to listen to their suggestions patiently. ivLokkappuRamum ivLo equanimousA irundhukittu thodarndhu padam edukkaRArE? evLO periya vishayam? innoruthanA irundha Rajaparvai timelEyE murder paNnittu jailukku pOyiruppAn

[Plum]

AM - oNNum illai. Kamal the creator makes films that convey his philosophy, thoughts, ideas and so on. avar kitta vandhu "nee nee ninacha padi padam edukkAdhE. nAn nenaikkaRA mAdhiri differntA edu" is what the likes of Kalaippuli Dhanu are saying. Kalaippuli DhanukkaL sonnabadi padam edukka evLavO avar level directors irukkAnga - avangaLai vechu eduthukkattumE. edhukku oru higher plane-la irukkaRa kalaignanai thangaL lower planekku iRangi varumARu azhaikkiRARgaL indha DhanukkaL?

[Bala (Karthik)]

Looking at some specific posters here and their suggestions on Mahandhi, I wonder what Kamal had to go through similar minds from the industry - S Dhanu is a name that comes to the mind that thinks exactly like some of the posters here - and having to listen to their suggestions patiently. ivLokkappuRamum ivLo equanimousA irundhukittu thodarndhu padam edukkaRArE? evLO periya vishayam? innoruthanA irundha Rajaparvai timelEyE murder paNnittu jailukku pOyiruppAn
:lol:

[Nerd]

<<Not adding anything useful to the discussion>>


AM - oNNum illai. Kamal the creator makes films that convey his philosophy, thoughts, ideas and so on. avar kitta vandhu "nee nee ninacha padi padam edukkAdhE. nAn nenaikkaRA mAdhiri differntA edu" is what the likes of Kalaippuli Dhanu are saying. Kalaippuli DhanukkaL sonnabadi padam edukka evLavO avar level directors irukkAnga - avangaLai vechu eduthukkattumE. edhukku oru higher plane-la irukkaRa kalaignanai thangaL lower planekku iRangi varumARu azhaikkiRARgaL indha DhanukkaL?
Ada, Udhayanidhi Stalin sonnapadiyE edukkuRaapla, illaiyaa :mrgreen:

[Plum]

Nerd - enna solla varrInga? puriyala. EdhAvadhu jokkeA? ilai SeriousA? :roll:

[Plum]

Joke-na, I expect more along the lines of " 'Panchthanthram', 'VRMBBS' ellAm Kamaloda endha philosophyya paththina padam ".

[Nerd]

Joke dhaan, Udhayanidhi sonnadhukkaaga, MMA-la lots of ridiculous muyaRchchi comedy scenes vechchaaRE adhai sonnEn. Kamal said this in an interview - (not verbatim). "Producer konjam lightaa mudikka sonnaar, adhanaala I had to change my script". My point was US sonnadhukkE change pannRaarE, appuRam enna idea / flaasafy ellaam.. appO avar UStalin lever director-aa? Ellaam andhandha sichuvEsan etc., generalize panna mudiyaadhulla..

[sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar]

UStalin sonnathu slight aa mis-understanding aagi irukku! He didn't tell that ending comical aa pannaa nallaarukkum etc. he said, comedy(yum) irunthaa nallaarukkum. US oda intha suggestion thaan kamaloda script ai sopil pannuchi ngra kathai ellaam solli yaarum MMA vai suffort pannaa velaikkaavaathu. Becos, this UStalin suggestion ellaam discussion tayathulaye solliruppaaru and there r evidenced its being considered very well in beginning itself. Initial scenes itself, that taxi driver asks for a nadippu saans. Which is being used in the very end of the climax. Ithu maathiri sila evidences irukku!

Athu poga, expect kamal's flashback scens which are minimal, mostly slight comedy anganga vanthutte thaan irukkum

As I said, ennai porutha varaikkin, weekend la, entha slight espettation um illaama paathaa mattum MMA enjoyable. Otherwise, disappointment thaan.

[equanimus]

Joke dhaan, Udhayanidhi sonnadhukkaaga, MMA-la lots of ridiculous muyaRchchi comedy scenes vechchaaRE adhai sonnEn. Kamal said this in an interview - (not verbatim). "Producer konjam lightaa mudikka sonnaar, adhanaala I had to change my script". My point was US sonnadhukkE change pannRaarE, appuRam enna idea / flaasafy ellaam.. appO avar UStalin lever director-aa? Ellaam andhandha sichuvEsan etc., generalize panna mudiyaadhulla..
Nerd, isnt that precisely my point? :roll:

adhvadhu, being forced to listen to some inane suggestions to "improve" his screenplays and movies, and sometimes commerce dictating that he actually has to acqueisce to those suggestions - idhaiyellAm ivLO nAL poRuthukkittu oru kolai kooda paNNAma irukkArE - apdinnu dhAnE sonnEn.

(Context to this thread is that some suggestions here for the "improement" of Mahanadhi precisely are the same level as typical S Dhanu suggestions, and the Udhayanidhi suggestion for improvement of MMA, that you pointed out. If these hubbers were Kamal's producers, I would love them to make the same suggestion to Kamal during the shooting, and would love his detailed thoughts on these suggestions recorded and played as a "Making" video without editing for profanity :) )
Compared to others, it's true that Kamal is on his own trip, but way too much is made out of Kamal making "artistic" films without "commercial compromises" etc. A lot has been said about this, but the elitist notion of "oh he's all for pure art and we support him but the frontbenchers love other things" never seems to die down. Isn't Kamal a proper commercial filmmaker by any standard? Indeed he's the hero in the true sense of the word in all his films. Even in Mahanadhi. (This is one of the primary reasons why I insisted on the idea of a "head," which is clear in the film but most people, even those appreciating the portrayal, keep pretending that his is a proper realistic portrayal of a middle-aged man, father of two kids, and so on. But I digress. I'll come back to this in a subsequent post.) To anyone who knows how Tamil cinema works, it should be clear that Kamal also goes through story discussions with producers just like any other filmmaker/actor. He's no Woody Allen. To further clarify, I'm not suggesting Kamal first writes a film all for himself and then strikes a trade-off with the producers. My point is he himself writes keeping his audience in mind. Hey! Ram is a commercial film in its own way. So is Kuruthippunal. These are all films in which Kamal plays characters in the larger-than-life mould of commercial cinema BUT as he envisions them.

Let's come to the crude idea of looking down upon mainstream conventions and elements as mere commercial compromises. With this viewpoint, one would have to disapprove of most of Tamil cinema's greatest films as they all operate in this very mode. Most of us fans who wax eloquent about the dismal flop that Hey! Ram was, haven't yet bothered to watch a Garam Hawa, have we? So, we ourselves are "in" for Hey! Ram for various reasons, not just because we stumbled upon a pure work of art!

[equanimus]

To clarify, I am with Plum when he says the audience doesn't know a priori what all it would like, so a filmmaker worth his/her salt shouldn't constrict himself/herself to such preconceived notions. This is again something MOST if not ALL filmmakers do, not just a few blessed ones like Kamal. But on the other hand it's also true that Kamal would like to know what all would touch his audience that he could exploit by keeping it in his films.

[KV]

Related digression:
An excerpt from Kashyapar’s interview (http://www.thehindu.com/arts/cinema/article3428787.ece?homepage=true)published in The Hindu, last week:
“The big need in Indian cinema is to look within. Dibakar Banerjee and Vishal Bhardwaj stuck to the roots. I was the one who strayed. It is Tamil cinema which inspired me to return to my roots,” says Anurag, all set to display his gangs in Cannes. He clarifies it is not the mainstream masala fair from the South, which is inspiring Bollywood these days, that hooked him. “I got hooked to films like ‘Subramaniapuram', ‘Adukulam', ‘Paruthiveeran'…works of directors like Bala, Ameer Sultan and Vetrimaran. Watching these films, I realised I come from North India where many such stories exist in small towns and villages and I am stuck in cities.”

Looking at the movies he mentions there, one can easily see that he isn’t talking ‘art-house’ flicks. At the end of the day, I think, it is how interestingly you’ve told the tale you’ve chosen to tell, the ‘extra ingredients’ to make it saleable notwithstanding.
Haasar manasu vechcha, solla vara kadhaiyum seri, sollra vidhamum seri, rendumE oru special level la vandhudum. enna, avar manasu vekkardhu dhaan….
(no, not hinting at KH working with these young guys... adhu vEra panchayathu)
Visvaroobam... ovvoru pookkalumE sollgiradhe...
/end-dig

[equanimus]

KV,
Thanks for the link. From his interviews on this film, one can see that Kashyap yearns for such a successful mainstream film that also rises above the run-of-the-mill.

My point here is, Kamal also squarely operates in mode. The mainstream character of his films (narrative, various plot elements and so on) is crucial to any meaningful discussion on them. Including Mahanadhi. To ignore them (or even treat them as irrelevant or as necessary distractions) is to miss many things that are key to the film.

[venkkiram]

Equa says we can find commercial aspects in hey ram. If ramaraanalum song falls into that category, I see that KH fails miserably in that idea.

[V_S]

Watching these films, I realised I come from North India where many such stories exist in small towns and villages and I am stuck in cities.”

This is my biggest complaint about current bollywood/hindi movies. I don't know why they stuck with films based only in cities since long long time. They definitely need to come out of it. It sounds so monotonous and tedious. Very glad that Kashyapar read my mind. Also very proud to hear about our films. Thanks KV for the link.

[P_R]

But Hindi language is like that no.
Hinterland baashai vERa maadhiri dhaanE irukkum. adhu ellArukkum puriyumA?

[wizzy]

@ V_S VB's USP'a adhu thane also market dictates..who would sit through a movie about colliers in Jharkhand..would that be cool enough for Khansahebs to star in it :huh:

[P_R]

@ V_S VB's USP'a adhu thane also market dictates..who would sit through a movie about colliers in Jharkhand..would that be cool enough for Khansahebs to star in it :huh:
I don't think it is just about not wanting to be cool etc.
Bhojpuri, Maithili ellAm eppadi dhilli-la puriyin?

enakku OraLavukku sumArA generic Hindi puriyum. I didn't understand many lines in Omkara, OLLO (panchaap portions).
Older nawabi Urdu I can't understand. A movie set in Lucknow will have to sound like that. Will it 'run' in the metros. Subtitle pOdungO! Subtitle pOdungO!

Paan Singh Tomar paartheengaLA. How it was? Authentic AND understandable?

[V_S]

wizzy, I agree. I am not saying every movie should be like that. atleast one in 10 movies or 25 movies? This aspect is totally shutdown now from bollywood, that was my biggest concern. We also have super star movies just like their khan's movies, but we also have other movies, which is not there at all in bollywood. Shouldn't they have responsibility to show Indian soul once in a while? or am I expecting too much? :smile:

[V_S]

Very good point P_R. I desperately want to see movies set in rural backdrop, so that we get to see their culture and tradition. All we get is Players and Jodi Breakers. Last such films I enjoyed was Harischandrachi factory (marati, would not count as bollywood) and Peepli Live, very rare ones.

[app_engine]

dig

I think bollywood has stopped even showing Mumbai / Dhilli kind of lifestyles quite sometime back. In the last few years, about 75% of indhi movies I saw had some NRI thingy or other :shock: And very less showing of Indian outdoors (even if things supposedly happen in India, they deliberately show London streets / EU parks / golf courses etc, for e.g.)

So much for naivetivity :-)

end-dig

[P_R]

Very good point P_R. I desperately want to see movies set in rural backdrop, so that we get to see their culture and tradition. All we get is Players and Jodi Breakers.
Not like that. They have been doing many movies with the local flavour.

Paan Singh Tomar, Ishqiya, Omkara, Sehar - ellAm vandhukittu dhaan irukku.
Prakash Jha makes many movies set in Bihar - Apaharan, Gangaajal being the more famous ones. (they aren't as "rooted" as you would like - but gives an idea of what is possible even in the mainstream).

So many Dilli movies in the last few years (i.e. out of the South Mumbai/Switzerland comfort zone) - Khosla ka Ghosla, Baand BajA baaraat, Oye Lucky Lucky Oye, Do dooni chaar etc.

Even in Mumbai - you have the JTYJN/WakeupSit and the Mumbai meri jaans. LBC and Rock-on - which are very conscious about their settings when the story unfolds.
And there are many small good movies too. Wonders like Rajat Kapur's Mithya or nice time-passers like Hulla, Raat Gayi baat gayi, dasvidaniya etc. These are 'truer' than Rahul-Pooja Mumbai of the 90s.

So overall, avinga nallAvE maindain paNRaainga.

[joe]

Epdiya intha maathiri type panni thaLLuReenga :)

[wizzy]

P_R our stars can afford to act with a dirty shirt and Khans/Kapoors don't have that luxury enbathu ennoda karuthu..until Khans/Kapoors embrace that culture no chance of rural movies happening in mainstream..Bhojpuri kittathatta namma Kannada industry mathiri..no one cares..Sister Nagma being a major star says a lot about their pedigree ;-)

[app_engine]

Khans/Kapoors don't have that luxury

lagAn?

now, the flip-side is our biggies (KH/RK & the next level fellows) currently can't do kOvaNam roles either :oops: ellAm worldwide market paththi kavalaippada ArambichchuttAnga...terrorism / cruise / swiss bank / robotics - only topics like these will become sellubadi it appears. Can't expect 'ammA enRazhaikkAdha' kinds anymore from biggies.

[equanimus]

Equa says we can find commercial aspects in hey ram. If ramaraanalum song falls into that category, I see that KH fails miserably in that idea.venkkiram, I think this is precisely the problem. The moment we hear "commercial," we think of things that were incongruent, did not cohere with the overall narrative flow, stuck out like a sore thumb, etc. (How well placed this particular song is, is a different debate. Here let me just assume it is indeed misplaced.) The larger point one misses is the commercial aspects of the film itself, the film as a whole.

There are many things that make Hey! Ram a commercial venture as a whole:
* An eventful life with many coincidences (seemingly everyman protagonist getting in touch with many influential people ranging from the Maharaja to Gandhi himself (!), chance meetings with old friends and so on), generally a thick plot that is characteristic of Indian commercial cinema.
* A mythical narrative in which the protagonist is taken across the length and breadth of India thus attempting to cover the historic event in its totality. (A more realistic film would have been set in just one of the regions affected during the partition.)
* The two love angles that are key to the plot and Saket's transitions.
* The Hindu-Muslim friendship angle that is again a classic trope and key to Saket's change of heart.
* And the most important of all, the very idiom of the film. Where the last hour involving an attempt to kill Gandhi operates as a thriller (!), usage of songs in general a pronounced score to express various emotions, the transitions of time etc., hero's physical transformations.

idhellAm nAn yOsichchu solREn. As a writer-director who's been (involved in) making commercial films for several years, Kamal-ukku idhu dhAn instinctive-AvE varum.

[P_R]

venkkiram, I think this is precisely the problem. The moment we hear "commercial," we think of things that were incongruent, did not cohere with the overall narrative flow, stuck out like a sore thumb, etc. (How well placed this particular song is, is a different debate. Here let me just assume it is indeed misplaced.) The larger point one misses is the commercial aspects of the film itself, the film as a whole.

There are many things that make Hey! Ram a commercial venture as a whole:
* An eventful life with many coincidences (seemingly everyman protagonist getting in touch with many influential people ranging from the Maharaja to Gandhi himself (!), chance meetings with old friends and so on), generally a thick plot that is characteristic of Indian commercial cinema.
* A mythical narrative in which the protagonist is taken across the length and breadth of India thus attempting to cover the historic event in its totality. (A more realistic film would have been set in just one of the regions affected during the partition.)
* The two love angles that are key to the plot and Saket's transitions.
* The Hindu-Muslim friendship angle that is again a classic trope and key to t.
* And the most important of all, the very idiom of the film. Where the last hour involving an attempt to kill Gandhi operates as a thriller (!), usage of songs in general a pronounced score to express various emotions, the transitions of time etc., hero's physical transformations.

idhellAm nAn yOsichchu solREn. As a writer-director who's been (involved in) making commercial films for several years, Kamal-ukku idhu dhAn instinctive-AvE varum.

Exactement!

[Plum]

venkkiram, I think this is precisely the problem. The moment we hear "commercial," we think of things that were incongruent, did not cohere with the overall narrative flow, stuck out like a sore thumb, etc. (How well placed this particular song is, is a different debate. Here let me just assume it is indeed misplaced.) The larger point one misses is the commercial aspects of the film itself, the film as a whole.

There are many things that make Hey! Ram a commercial venture as a whole:
* An eventful life with many coincidences (seemingly everyman protagonist getting in touch with many influential people ranging from the Maharaja to Gandhi himself (!), chance meetings with old friends and so on), generally a thick plot that is characteristic of Indian commercial cinema.
* A mythical narrative in which the protagonist is taken across the length and breadth of India thus attempting to cover the historic event in its totality. (A more realistic film would have been set in just one of the regions affected during the partition.)
* The two love angles that are key to the plot and Saket's transitions.
* The Hindu-Muslim friendship angle that is again a classic trope and key to t.
* And the most important of all, the very idiom of the film. Where the last hour involving an attempt to kill Gandhi operates as a thriller (!), usage of songs in general a pronounced score to express various emotions, the transitions of time etc., hero's physical transformations.

idhellAm nAn yOsichchu solREn. As a writer-director who's been (involved in) making commercial films for several years, Kamal-ukku idhu dhAn instinctive-AvE varum.



Lovely. Very well put. Especially the refutation on instinctive reactions to the word "commercial". Write more.

[sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar]

Venki, paraparappaana chasing, something like fight, appadi paathaa, the Calcutta riots and the one which happens during cerfew, we can say commercial. Even the love angle, as said by equa, is a engaging one. Of course, avangavanga taste.

[venkkiram]

Venki, paraparappaana chasing, something like fight, appadi paathaa, the Calcutta riots and the one which happens during cerfew, we can say commercial. பார்றா!

கமலோட எண்ணங்களை கமர்ஷியல் முலாம் பூசி கொச்சை படுத்திறிங்க! இந்தக் காட்சிகளை எடுக்கும்போது துக்கம் தொண்டை அடைத்து தனியே உட்கார்ந்து அழுதிருக்கிறாராம் கமல். அவரே சில பேட்டிகளில் சொல்லியிருக்கிறார். அவருக்கென்ன தலையெழுத்தா! நீங்க என்னடான்னா, கமர்ஷியல் கம்மார்கட்டுன்னு!

[P_R]

Equar's point is very central when thinking about Kamal.
He is making the mainstram narrative richer. Which is why he always denies the commercial-art division.
He ensures the film is 'entertaining' in all its traditional sense. He definitely writes with the 'median-viewer' in mind and goes out of the way to ensure people are on-board - as much as the material would permit.

It is how well integrated all the elements are - so much so that we can't see them as separate ingredients - that he truly excels.

[sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar]

பார்றா!

கமலோட எண்ணங்களை கமர்ஷியல் முலாம் பூசி கொச்சை படுத்திறிங்க! இந்தக் காட்சிகளை எடுக்கும்போது துக்கம் தொண்டை அடைத்து தனியே உட்கார்ந்து அழுதிருக்கிறாராம் கமல். அவரே சில பேட்டிகளில் சொல்லியிருக்கிறார். அவருக்கென்ன தலையெழுத்தா! நீங்க என்னடான்னா, கமர்ஷியல் கம்மார்கட்டுன்னு!

ஓ, அப்ப அழுகை என்ற உணர்வுக்கும் கமர்ஷியலுக்கும் தொடர்பே இல்லையா?? கமர்ஷியல் என்றால் வெகுஜன. அவ்ளோதான். வெகுஜனம் இதை தான் ரசிக்கும் ந்னு ஏதாச்சும் சட்டம் இருக்கா.

கமர்ஷியல் என்றாலே இதுதான் என்ற உங்கள் குறுகிய புரிதலை மீண்டும் வெளிப்படுத்துகிறீர்கள்

[wizzy]

lagAn?

now, the flip-side is our biggies (KH/RK & the next level fellows) currently can't do kOvaNam roles either :oops: ellAm worldwide market paththi kavalaippada ArambichchuttAnga...terrorism / cruise / swiss bank / robotics - only topics like these will become sellubadi it appears. Can't expect 'ammA enRazhaikkAdha' kinds anymore from biggies.

yam reminded of crow bite sequence from Simla Special where S.Ve Sekhar goes 'nee kappal'a eppovum main role'a ketpiya' :lol:

[venkkiram]

நான் எதைச் சொல்ல வர்றேன்னு நீங்க புரிஞ்சிக்கல. சரி! நம்ம ரெண்டு பேரையும் தவிர்த்து வேறு யாராவது உங்க ஹேராம்-கமர்ஷியல்-காட்சிகள் பற்றிய கருத்துக்களை எப்படி புரிஞ்சிகிறாங்க எனப் பார்ப்போம்! அதுக்கு அப்புறம் குறுகிய/பெருகிய மேட்டருக்கு வருவோம்!

[Plum]

I think to truly understand what equa is talking about - why Kamal's (what we call as) artistic films (as opposed to commercial films ) are actualyl commercial - you must see "true"art movies like the malayalam ones where the character a) brushes teeth for 5 minutes in the movie. And it has no relevance to anything in the movie. Simply 5 minutes of screentime capturing a "Realistic" pal theichal b) a solitary cow grazing for 10 minutes. Same shot. for 10 minutes.

Well, I am ofcourse trivializing but I have seen such "art" movies too - leaving them aside as faux art movies, even some acclaimed art movies have nothing for the "commercial" viewer (I mean myself) and in that context, while Kamal gives us high art, he gives it to us in capsules quite relatable to a normal commercial film watcher - if only such a viewer can make a slight leap of sensibility and mental ability.

[P_R]

I think we should challenge this notion of using commercial as some perjorative term.
How many of us have any idea about arthouse films a lot to prefer it.
I am not saying none of us like any of the artsy films. But the truth is we are not even sufficiently aware of them. (like equa quoted Garam Hawa).
So when we say non-commercial we are talking of some ideal construct which resides largely in our heads.

If we are talking about a film where the hero is a loser, goes about having a thin-time for pretty much the running length of the film - why Sivaji has done it many a time, hasn't he?

[sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar]

வெங்கி, கமலை விட்டுட்டு பார்த்தால் கூட, பலதரப்பட்ட படங்கள் பெருவெற்றி பெற்றிருக்கிறது. எது கமர்ஷியல்/வெகுஜன ரசனை என்பதற்கு அதுவே நல்ல உதாரணமாக இருக்கும்.

எனக்குத்தெரிந்து, ஹேராம், கொஞ்சம் சீரியசான படம் என்பதை புரிந்துகொண்டேன், கமல் முதன்முதலில் இயக்கி இருக்கிரார், அந்த எதிர்பார்ப்பும் கூட. எனவே, மற்ற படங்களை பற்றி நினைக்காமல், ஒரு சிறந்த அனுபவத்தை எதிர்நோக்கி படத்தை பார்த்தேன். மகாநதி அளாவிற்கு சோக சம்பவங்கள் உள்ள படமாக இருக்கவில்லை, அதே சமயம் அதை விட சற்றெ சிக்கலாக இருந்தாற்போலவும் இருந்தது. இரண்டாம் முறை பார்க்கும்போது இன்னும் நஙு புரிந்தது.

படத்தில் எனக்குமிகப்பிடித்த பாட்சிகள், நான் மேலே சொன்ன இரண்டு தான். அவையே அதிக தாக்கத்தை ஏற்படுத்தின. அதிலும் அந்த துப்பாக்கியை தொலைத்துவிட்டு, அதன்பின் வரும் காட்சிகாள் ரொம்பவே விறுவிறுப்பாக எனக்கு இருந்தது. விறுவிறுப்பு என்றால் அடுத்து என்ன நடக்கும் என்ற எதிர்பார்ப்பும், ஒரு துப்பாக்கி எவ்வளவு பெரிய கலவரத்தை உண்டுபண்னக்கூடிய சூழல் அன்று நிலவியது என்பதும் எந்த கமர்ஷியல் படத்திற்கும் குறைவில்லாத காட்சிகளாகத்தான் எனக்குப்பட்டது

[P_R]

How many of us have really seen agraharathil kazhuthai or aravindan or adoor kopalakishnan - to really say we prefer arthouse films or think they are superior to the fare we watch/like.
namakku therinjadhu ellAmE commercial dhaan 'ngREn.

[Plum]

Yes, adhai thAn nInga, nAn maRRum equa already sollittOme in previous posts?

[lydayaxobia493]

Can anyone differentiate commercial/non-commerical/classic movies ?

[sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar]

feeyaar, i guess we shoud add some 80s balumahendra movies too. pallu veLakkurathai, entha BGM um illaama 5 minits kaattuvaanga. kEttaa aart philim mbaainga

[equanimus]

நான் எதைச் சொல்ல வர்றேன்னு நீங்க புரிஞ்சிக்கல. சரி! நம்ம ரெண்டு பேரையும் தவிர்த்து வேறு யாராவது உங்க ஹேராம்-கமர்ஷியல்-காட்சிகள் பற்றிய கருத்துக்களை எப்படி புரிஞ்சிகிறாங்க எனப் பார்ப்போம்! அதுக்கு அப்புறம் குறுகிய/பெருகிய மேட்டருக்கு வருவோம்!
வீம்புக்காக சொல்றதா எடுத்த்துக்குறீங்களோன்னு தோணுது, but anyway, "வேறு யாராவது" ஒத்துக்குவாங்களான்னு நீங்க கேக்கறது வேடிக்கையா இருக்கு. பெரும்பாலான (படம் பார்த்து அதைப் பற்றி விவாதிக்கும்) பார்வையாளர்கள் இப்படித் தான் நினைக்கிறாங்கன்னு தான் முதல்லயே சொல்லிட்டேனே!

கமலோட எண்ணங்களை கமர்ஷியல் முலாம் பூசி கொச்சை படுத்திறிங்க! இந்தக் காட்சிகளை எடுக்கும்போது துக்கம் தொண்டை அடைத்து தனியே உட்கார்ந்து அழுதிருக்கிறாராம் கமல். அவரே சில பேட்டிகளில் சொல்லியிருக்கிறார். அவருக்கென்ன தலையெழுத்தா! நீங்க என்னடான்னா, கமர்ஷியல் கம்மார்கட்டுன்னு!Azad Soda Factoryயைத் தேடித் போறது பெரிய sequence. அதில் அம்ஜத் சாகுற தருணத்தை மட்டும் எடுத்துக்குறீங்க. (சகல குறிப்பா அதைச் சொல்றாரான்னு தெரியல.) மொத்தமா கடைசி ஒரு மணி நேரம் thriller வகையறாங்கறதுல தெளிவு.
முக்கியமா நான் சொல்ல விரும்புறது பல பேருக்கு "commercial" மேல உள்ள schizophrenic prejudice பற்றி. They like it, it's such factors that drive them to watch a film in the first place, but they diss the format pretending to go only with what the "crux" or the "content" of the film is. (But if you keep peeling the form/style, you'll have nothing left-ங்கறது தான் உண்மை.) நீங்க எழுதுனதையே எடுத்துக்குங்க. "கொச்சை"ன்னு ஏன் சொல்றீங்க? நீங்க சொல்ற அதே கமல் 'ஹே ராம்' ஓடும்னு நெனச்சு தான் எடுத்தேன் பலமுறை சொல்லியிருக்காரே!

[Arvind Srinivasan]

படத்தில் எனக்குமிகப்பிடித்த பாட்சிகள், நான் மேலே சொன்ன இரண்டு தான். அவையே அதிக தாக்கத்தை ஏற்படுத்தின. அதிலும் அந்த துப்பாக்கியை தொலைத்துவிட்டு, அதன்பின் வரும் காட்சிகாள் ரொம்பவே விறுவிறுப்பாக எனக்கு இருந்தது. விறுவிறுப்பு என்றால் அடுத்து என்ன நடக்கும் என்ற எதிர்பார்ப்பும், ஒரு துப்பாக்கி எவ்வளவு பெரிய கலவரத்தை உண்டுபண்னக்கூடிய சூழல் அன்று நிலவியது என்பதும் எந்த கமர்ஷியல் படத்திற்கும் குறைவில்லாத காட்சிகளாகத்தான் எனக்குப்பட்டது

+1...Hey ram is very much a commercial movie imho....Take the Nee partha segment or for the matter that the other love story as well for example...The subject might have been a little new for the audience but Kamal had enforced enough commerical ingredients..Not just that, everything happens by chance- Kamal meeting abyankar, Kamal meeting with both Lalwani and Amjad and Amjad actually owning the Azad Soda factory ...All of this comes from a director taking cinematic liberties...

[Plum]

SKV, not sure I agree/. Veedu/Sandhya Raagam - the two BM movies which mathc your description were thoroughly engaging and enertaining unlike the Malayalam movies I talked about(Tooth brushing and Cow grazing)/

[wizzy]

on Agraharathil Kazhuthai..this movie was DD's sunday afternoon movie filler..fairly well known/followed.

[venkkiram]

Equa:

Sakala mentioned : the Calcutta riots and the one which happens during cerfew

I just stopped at "Calcutta riots" and responded that.

[P_R]

Jaisankar once asked him why Kamal experimented when he could do Sakalakalavallavan (which is essentially pattikada pattaNamA, periya idathu peN, taming of the shrew - sureshot success films).

Kamal's answer was that aboorva S's collection is higher and Thevar M's collection even higher. So I don't think he is being glib when he says the audience have supported his experiments.

But I do believe he was let down in Hey Ram. My diagnosis has been the language. It had to be multilingual. Ad far as possible he had overcome that. MCC connection, thanjAvur maratha, Marina hotel waiter, Birla house servant -idhukku mEla oNNum paNNa mudiyAdhu.

I can imagine many people being confused about what's going on.

There is only one man responsible..Barrister Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi.
ai sabaas...nallavarundra

[app_engine]

wizzy,
viLakkam please, nAn simla special pAkkalai :oops:

[SoftSword]

venki, by commercial ppl here mean the ideas which sells the moviel/ which the viewers can buy...

[sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar]

Azad Soda Factoryயைத் தேடித் போறது பெரிய sequence. அதில் அம்ஜத் சாகுற தருணத்தை மட்டும் எடுத்துக்குறீங்க. (சகல குறிப்பா அதைச் சொல்றாரான்னு தெரியல.) அந்த முழு எபிசோடையும் தான் சொல்றேன்! துப்பாக்கி தொலைவதில் தொடங்கி கமல் காந்தியை சந்தித்து அம்ஜத் பற்றி பேச்சு வரும் அந்த காட்சி வரை. சொல்லப்போனா, காந்தி அன்றாடம் பலப்பல சாதாரணர்களை சந்தித்திருக்கிறார் என்பதான உன்மையே எனக்கு, ஒரு சாதாரண அம்ஜத் பற்றி காந்தி நினைவுபடுத்தி பேசும்போது தான் புரிந்து, ஆச்சரியமாகவும் இருந்தது. எனவே அதுகூட எனக்கு கமர்சியல் தாங்க! 'கமர்சியல்' என பிரக்கெட்டில் போடவில்லை, சாதரணாகவே போட்டிருக்கிறேன்!


மொத்தமா கடைசி ஒரு மணி நேரம் thriller வகையறாங்கறதுல தெளிவு.
முக்கியமா நான் சொல்ல விரும்புறது பல பேருக்கு "commercial" மேல உள்ள schizophrenic prejudice பற்றி. They like it, it's such factors that drive them to watch a film in the first place, but they diss the format pretending to go only with what the "crux" or the "content" of the film is. (But if you keep peeling the form/style, you'll have nothing left-ங்கறது தான் உண்மை.) நீங்க எழுதுனதையே எடுத்துக்குங்க. "கொச்சை"ன்னு ஏன் சொல்றீங்க? நீங்க சொல்ற அதே கமல் 'ஹே ராம்' ஓடும்னு நெனச்சு தான் எடுத்தேன் பலமுறை சொல்லியிருக்காரே!

ஆனா எனக்கு, நான் சொன்ன இரன்டு காட்சிகள் தவிர்த்து, போரடிக்கவில்லை என்றாலும், ஏதோ ஆர்ட் ஃபிலிம் உணர்வு வந்தது. கடைசியில் என்ன சொல்ல வருகிறார் என்பது பளிச் என புரியவில்லை. ஆனாலும் சரித்திரம் இதில் எல்லாம் சற்றே ஆர்வம் இருந்ததால் கவலையில்லை.

'ஹே ராம்' ஓடும்னு நெனச்சு தான் எடுத்தேன்' ந்னு சொல்ல்லிருக்கார், ஆனா ஒரு தலைமுறையை தயார்படுத்தவில்லை என்றும் சொன்னாரே. ஒரு சரித்திர படத்தில் கூட, சண்டை, பிரம்மான்டம், ராஜா காலத்து அரசியல் என மக்கள் விரும்பும் விஷயங்கள் இருக்கும். ஆனால் ஏனோ இந்த ப்ரீ-இன்டிபென்டென்ஸ் காலம் நிறைய பேருக்கு பிடிக்குதா என சந்தேகமாகவே இருக்கிறது. இதுவே படத்தின் தோல்விக்கு காரணமாகவும் படுகிறது.

இதே, வடக்கில், ஜின்னா ஆதரவாளர்கள் எல்லாம் மிகவும் ரசித்து பார்த்தார்கள்! ஆனால், அது, 'காரியமே கெட்டுது போ' வகை தானே?!

[venkkiram]

venki, by commercial ppl here mean the ideas which sells the moviel/ which the viewers can buy... Could you guys explain me the Calcutta riot scene in detail by the commercial aspect of it? Pretty interesting!

[Plum]

There is only one man responsible..Barrister Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi.
ai sabaas...nallavarundra

:lol:

It is such a dilemma - I wouldnt have been satisfied with dubbing or tamil rendering of even one dialogue in the mARRu languages in the movie - yet, the fact that that is precisely the reason many people who would otherwise have probably related to the movie couldnt related the movie strikes me hard. I know I have just been lucky to know these languages and environments - but apart from many other things, that this man could comfortably speak, think in, and relate to all those cultures and languages that I had some inkling o gave me a special connect to this man and his works. It is as if he made that movie specially to please me.

[sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar]

feeyaar, for me multiple languages was not an issue! doesn't mean i understood the bengaali and other languages. infact i could not listen properly to even some english dialogs. But that never stopped me to understand waht exactly is going on.

On a somewhat relative note, even dasavatharam too, there are many places ppl won't understand what exactly is being spoken!

Ppl made some of the kamal movies spuerhit, inspite of these compromises. anyways it was always meant for ppl to understand, may be sometime, some effort is needed. Kamal as an artist, may wish that fans take that extra effort

[sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar]

Kuruthippunal is actually an out and out telugu film, fully dubbed to Tamal! intha maathiri killaadikkEdi velai ellaam ivar thaan seivaaru :lol:

[Plum]

Sakala, you mean it really or are you referring to the fact that the Naxal related milieu that the movie shows is more Andhra than TN?

[Saai]

How many of us have really seen agraharathil kazhuthai or aravindan or adoor kopalakishnan - to really say we prefer arthouse films or think they are superior to the fare we watch/like.
namakku therinjadhu ellAmE commercial dhaan 'ngREn.

adhu avlo artisticana padamaa? hype a nambi download panni paathen .. onnum soldradhukilla!!!!... looked like a film institute guy's amateurish attempt..

Adoor..ore padam thaan - Elipathiyam..... OK

Even in Kerala, somewhat commercial movies like Kireedam (Romance, comedy, family sentiment), Bharatham(Musical, Family sentiment), Thaniyavarthanam (Family sentiment, Sort of a thriller) has fared well it seems...in their golden period 80s

[P_R]

Sakala, kurainchapatcham English therinjirukkaNum.
illainnA Gandhiyai ellAm appreciate-E paNNa mudiyAdhu 'ngREn.

Gandhi: nEththikku is tomorrow?
Uppili: No bapuji...it is naaLaikku...nEththikku is yesterday
Gandhi: Oh...my critics are right. I am stuck in yesterday

I didn't know who Suhrawardy was when walking into the movie. Imagine not understanding even after having watched the movie. Quite possible, given how those conversations are (and can't help but be in) English.

Abbasin iniya sondhakkural-la solradhellAm enakku anjAvadhu thadavai pAkkumbOdhu dhaan purinchch (Grouch...note the point)

That his name is Munavar and that is why Nasser momentarily raises the rifle at him - I didn't get it at all the first couple of times.

[sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar]

No, the dialogs are telugu and dubbed. May be some scenes the took for tamil, but mostly its telugu

[P_R]

Saai, Kerala of the 80s is gold standert.

AK ellAm pArthadhillai. sollakkELvi dhaan.

[wizzy]

wizzy,
viLakkam please, nAn simla special pAkkalai :oops:

would be difficult to explain..eventhough Visu got the writing credits heard Hassar/S.Ve did most of their lines impromptu also this could be the only movie Hassar/Visu worked together.

[Arvind Srinivasan]

No, the dialogs are telugu and dubbed. May be some scenes the took for tamil, but mostly its telugu

Was the movie released in telugu simultaneously

[equanimus]

Equar's point is very central when thinking about Kamal.
He is making the mainstram narrative richer. Which is why he always denies the commercial-art division.
He ensures the film is 'entertaining' in all its traditional sense. He definitely writes with the 'median-viewer' in mind and goes out of the way to ensure people are on-board - as much as the material would permit.

It is how well integrated all the elements are - so much so that we can't see them as separate ingredients - that he truly excels.Absolutely! And as you delineate here, this does ties in neatly with one of your pet concerns about being appealing at multiple levels rather than expecting the audience to mull over the film to eventually "get" it. Without appreciating this character of his films, we'd be caught in a never-ending chain of platitudes that primarily praise the heavy content of the film.

I think we should challenge this notion of using commercial as some perjorative term.
How many of us have any idea about arthouse films a lot to prefer it.
I am not saying none of us like any of the artsy films. But the truth is we are not even sufficiently aware of them. (like equa quoted Garam Hawa).
So when we say non-commercial we are talking of some ideal construct which resides largely in our heads.

If we are talking about a film where the hero is a loser, goes about having a thin-time for pretty much the running length of the film - why Sivaji has done it many a time, hasn't he?Exactly. Even describing it as an ideal construct residing largely in our heads gives a certain validity to this notion which is more paradoxical than ideal.

[sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar]

I didn't know who Suhrawardy was when walking into the movie. Imagine not understanding even after having watched the movie. Quite possible, given how those conversations are (and can't help but be in) English.

Abbasin iniya sondhakkural-la solradhellAm enakku anjAvadhu thadavai pAkkumbOdhu dhaan purinchch (Grouch...note the point)

That his name is Munavar and that is why Nasser momentarily raises the rifle at him - I didn't get it at all the first couple of times.

ungalukke appadinnaa ....!

Actually these issues kept some fans away from this film...

[P_R]

When Saket calls the police officer to report the riots they advice him to call the Congress office in Delhi: 'maybe you can reach Mr.Gandhi'

Staggering naivete, cynical arrogance - piriththu solla mudiyAdhapadi irukkum. It had to be in English.

The kid born in Chandni Chowk was the one whose father (Qureshi) was killed in the fight-nu ellAm makkaLukkum purinjirukkum.

It is the man who had a chance to kill Saket, but decided not to and then Saket avenges his death furiously in the fight. Fantastic turn in just a few minutes. Tricky to communicate even without the language problem.

[sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar]

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/2101/56801261.jpg

[jaiganes]

venkkiram, I think this is precisely the problem. The moment we hear "commercial," we think of things that were incongruent, did not cohere with the overall narrative flow, stuck out like a sore thumb, etc. (How well placed this particular song is, is a different debate. Here let me just assume it is indeed misplaced.) The larger point one misses is the commercial aspects of the film itself, the film as a whole.

There are many things that make Hey! Ram a commercial venture as a whole:
* An eventful life with many coincidences (seemingly everyman protagonist getting in touch with many influential people ranging from the Maharaja to Gandhi himself (!), chance meetings with old friends and so on), generally a thick plot that is characteristic of Indian commercial cinema.
* A mythical narrative in which the protagonist is taken across the length and breadth of India thus attempting to cover the historic event in its totality. (A more realistic film would have been set in just one of the regions affected during the partition.)
* The two love angles that are key to the plot and Saket's transitions.
* The Hindu-Muslim friendship angle that is again a classic trope and key to Saket's change of heart.
* And the most important of all, the very idiom of the film. Where the last hour involving an attempt to kill Gandhi operates as a thriller (!), usage of songs in general a pronounced score to express various emotions, the transitions of time etc., hero's physical transformations.

idhellAm nAn yOsichchu solREn. As a writer-director who's been (involved in) making commercial films for several years, Kamal-ukku idhu dhAn instinctive-AvE varum.

havent read all the discossans - but taking this single post as a cue on current discussions, i must say If Mahanadhi was Kamal's "Les Miserables"
Then Hey Ram would have to be his "Tale of Two cities". It felt very much like Kalki's Alai osai when it comes to sprawling story spawining many years and many places - in that way it felt like reading a thodar novel . The characters that we start with keep changing and changing till we come to the end where some of them live as is in the memories of core set of protagonists while some characters change. Here we see Saket as the character - much changed due to so many folks and incidents and the caveat being Mahatma himself being one of those characters who change him - classic parallel to Ben hur's story when he meets Jesus - just the difference being he(saket) sees his Christ after he is transformed. Both stories are about the burning revenge in the heart of the protagonist - Revenge which 99.8% of Indians will consider "pretty normal and justified". It is the singe most humanist story from Thamizh cinema - bettering Mahanadhi in the "mellowed down" tone it adopts contrasting to the haunting "Narai koodi kizhapparuvam eidhi" spirit of Mahanadhi - Here Saket - the wise soul does precisely the same "Narai koodudhal, kizhapparuvam eidhal" - he lives his life as a witness as he battles his feeling of guilt and loss.. Such a character arc is a strange animal to thamizh cinema. If Mahanadhi flowed like a torrent with vehment will to change the earth it runs upon, Hey Ram is the peace and meaning it finds once the ocean is reached - there is no more earth to mow down - just the look back at a eventful past and contentment to disappear into the ocean. Both these movies speak volumes about the frame of mind of Kamal hassan and not just Krishna Swamy or Saket..

[sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar]

Was the movie released in telugu simultaneously

Of course, and it also had a good run there

[sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar]

Can we change the title as Discussion on Mahanadhi & Hey Raam?

[equanimus]

venki, by commercial ppl here mean the ideas which sells the moviel/ which the viewers can buy...Simple as that.

Equa:

Sakala mentioned : the Calcutta riots and the one which happens during cerfew

I just stopped at "Calcutta riots" and responded that.
Could you guys explain me the Calcutta riot scene in detail by the commercial aspect of it? Pretty interesting!I wish you would continue reading (not just Sakala's post but also the other posts that has been written) rather than refusing to engage beyond your question on Calcutta riots. You haven't responded to any of the larger questions raised/points made!

But if you insist, it's not simply about how serious or heart-wrenching the scene is! To say something is a mainstream trope is not at all tantamount to doubting the artist's intentions as you seem to assume. You've been repeatedly arguing that it's disgusting to think of these as commercial elements, but the flaw is in the prism through which you view anything called "mainstream" or "commercial." Nobody said the riot scenes or the rape scene or what have you is inserted there as a commercial element or for commercial reasons. What is being said all these scenes are conceptualised using some mainstream conventions. Where there is an initial chase, suspense, shooting and so on. All Sakala says is that he found the sequence leading up to the rape engaging in a familiar way. I think this is readily understandable.

Anyway, the larger discussion is about the film. If you don't think it's a film that employs mainstream conventions, it's alright. My proposition here is, it's only by acknowledging the mainstream nature of the film and freeing oneself from superficial or downright silly constrictions (a la "oh but why does this sort of thing happen in what must really be a realistic film?"), one can truly get into the heart of the film.

[SoftSword]

Could you guys explain me the Calcutta riot scene in detail by the commercial aspect of it? Pretty interesting!

simple... andha scene ungalukku paakka interestinga irundhadhaa? perunpaanmayaana target audienceku oru scene interestinga irundhaa adhu commercial... by which ppl here just mean keeping the viewer engaged to the scenes...

[P_R]

Unlikeliness 'eeswaranOda leelai' illaama drama-vE kidaiyAdhu.
namba mudiyAdhadhai namba mudiyira maadhiri tharradhula dhaan kalaignan nikkiRaan 'ngREn

[venkkiram]

Calcutta riot scene koduththa impact-ai vida inge athai commercial enRa peyaril dissect panrathu payangara impact kodukkuthu!

[P_R]

Commercial-nA yEn 'ketta vaarthai' 'nRa range-layE maindain paNreenga?
To use another bad-word in the ilakkiya circuit- suvArasiyam.

padam suvArasiyamA irundhuchchA illaiyA? adhaan vishayam. Kamal is always striving to earn the audience's interest. He does not assume it is readily available.

[SoftSword]

super catch ya - swarasyam/interesting

[lydayaxobia493]

P-R...usually people r thinking commercial movie means masala movie...

[equanimus]

All this doesn't mean (to clarify what should be obvious) that I am suggesting that Hey! Ram is anything remotely like a full-on commercial film like Dhool or Ayan (or kAkka kAkka to intentionally include the likes of Gautham Menon who often tend to get a "clean chit" in this regard). It is indeed a serious, offbeat film but nevertheless one made in the mainstream format. Other than that, its failures at an obvious level to reach out to its audiences is well known to all of us. Which Sakala and PR have also captured here...

ஆனா எனக்கு, நான் சொன்ன இரன்டு காட்சிகள் தவிர்த்து, போரடிக்கவில்லை என்றாலும், ஏதோ ஆர்ட் ஃபிலிம் உணர்வு வந்தது. கடைசியில் என்ன சொல்ல வருகிறார் என்பது பளிச் என புரியவில்லை. ஆனாலும் சரித்திரம் இதில் எல்லாம் சற்றே ஆர்வம் இருந்ததால் கவலையில்லை.

'ஹே ராம்' ஓடும்னு நெனச்சு தான் எடுத்தேன்' ந்னு சொல்ல்லிருக்கார், ஆனா ஒரு தலைமுறையை தயார்படுத்தவில்லை என்றும் சொன்னாரே. ஒரு சரித்திர படத்தில் கூட, சண்டை, பிரம்மான்டம், ராஜா காலத்து அரசியல் என மக்கள் விரும்பும் விஷயங்கள் இருக்கும். ஆனால் ஏனோ இந்த ப்ரீ-இன்டிபென்டென்ஸ் காலம் நிறைய பேருக்கு பிடிக்குதா என சந்தேகமாகவே இருக்கிறது. இதுவே படத்தின் தோல்விக்கு காரணமாகவும் படுகிறது.
But I do believe he was let down in Hey Ram. My diagnosis has been the language. It had to be multilingual. Ad far as possible he had overcome that. MCC connection, thanjAvur maratha, Marina hotel waiter, Birla house servant -idhukku mEla oNNum paNNa mudiyAdhu.

I can imagine many people being confused about what's going on.

There is only one man responsible..Barrister Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi.
ai sabaas...nallavarundraYes, the subject itself is quite muddled for Tamil with a catastrophic event that doesn't resonate all that much with people in this side of the country, the multiple languages involved and so on. And Kamal did reserve some bit of primacy to his Tamil identity, so it couldn't be made a proper Hindi film either. In that sense, he perhaps intended a truly pan-Indian film that he hoped would succeed.

[equanimus]

Calcutta riot scene koduththa impact-ai vida inge athai commercial enRa peyaril dissect panrathu payangara impact kodukkuthu!ALL of us here totally get that you are disgusted and shocked at the suggestion that this sort of traumatic scene is conceived and shot as it'd be in a mainstream film.* We all get it. If you don't have anything to add beyond expressing your shock, please move on.

* If you care to think this through logically, are you saying the very presence of such a scene means it'll be treated the same way by all filmmakers irrespective of their style?!

[app_engine]

Yes, the subject itself is quite muddled for Tamil with a catastrophic event that doesn't resonate all that much with people in this side of the country, the multiple languages involved and so on. And Kamal did reserve some bit of primacy to his Tamil identity, so it couldn't be made a proper Hindi film either. In that sense, he perhaps intended a truly pan-Indian film that he hoped would succeed.

Excellent point (though I haven't watched HR)!

Kind of similar reason that makes some MR movies so "anniyam" to watch!

If KH wants to make a historical (not purANA levels, ithihAs level only) and get great "veku jana" response in TN (another equivalent word for commercial), it may have to be either chEra-chOzha-pANdiya biz or drAvidian biz :wink:

MR should have colloborated with KH for iruvar :-)

[sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar]

Yes, the subject itself is quite muddled for Tamil with a catastrophic event that doesn't resonate all that much with people in this side of the country, the multiple languages involved and so on. And Kamal did reserve some bit of primacy to his Tamil identity, so it couldn't be made a proper Hindi film either. In that sense, he perhaps intended a truly pan-Indian film that he hoped would succeed.

உன்னைபோல் ஒருவனில் கூட கோடிகாட்டி இருப்பாரு, "அது வேற ஊரு, இது தமிழ்நாடு, மெரினா பீச் தண்ணில நிம்மதியா நாம காலை நனைக்க முடியுது, எதுக்கு அவங்க பத்தி கவலைப்படணும்"

[P_R]

He mentions in HR
Lalwani: Road poorA bodies...unakku puriyAdhu nee South Indian
Saket: illai...puriyum

This is a friend who knows Saket was going to Calcutta and was there on Direct Action Day. Still he forgets and the only thing he remembers is the stereotype.

[equanimus]

To put this whole perspective (challenging the elitist notion of a dichotomy between the artistic and the commercial) in the right context, it's not at all about what filmmakers themselves say or think about their films or the struggle they went through in making them. Some filmmakers are naive (or to put it in less charitable terms, dishonest to themselves) enough to think that they're not in it for a mainstream success. For example, like how Cheran argued that Kamal didn't want a mainstream success in Hey! Ram (this is from the Vijay TV programme on Virumaandi with Madan).

The struggle a filmmaker goes through (finding the right producer, etc.) in making a serious film in mainstream format (as opposed to an open-and-shut formulaic film that is less a gamble but OTOH more likely to leave the audience unshaken!) is of course real and a different matter. Note that, even here, the struggle increases, not decrease, with trying to reach out to wider audience.

[sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar]

கல்கத்தா கலவரங்கள் முடிந்து, ஆனால் சாகேத்ராம் இன்னும் அபயங்கரை சந்திக்கவில்லை. அப்போது காந்தி கல்கத்தா வந்திருப்பதாக தெரியவரும். ஒரு இடத்தில் மக்கள் கூடி நிற்க, அங்கே மாடியில் கதவைத்திறந்து காந்தி தோன்றுவார். எனக்கு இந்த அறிமுகமே ஏதோ வித்தியாசமாக இருந்தது. (இதுபோன்ற பல விஷயங்கள் தான் என்னை படத்தின்பால் இழுத்துப்பிடித்து வைத்திருந்தது!) பலரும் காந்தியை வாழ்த்தி ஏதோ கத்திக்கொன்டிருக்க, சாகேத்ராம் "கல்கத்தா ரியாட்களுக்கு நீங்கள்தானே பொறுப்பு??" என கோபத்துடன் கேட்பார். சிறிது நேர தயக்கத்திற்குப்பிறகு காந்தி ஒத்துக்கொள்வார். (இங்கே காந்தியின் நேர்மை கவனத்திற்குறியது) அவர் தவறை ஒப்புக்கொண்டதையே ஒரு தீரச்செயலாகக்கருதி, கூட்டம் மீண்டும், பாராட்டுக்கோஷத்தை துவங்கும். சாகேத்ராமோ கடும் ஆச்சர்யத்துடன், "என்னடா பாராட்டு கோஷமிடுகிறார்களே?" என பார்ப்பார்! மெல்ல அந்த கூட்டத்தில் இருந்து விலகுவார். சாகேத்ராம் முதன்முதலில் கோபப்படுவது அப்போதுதான். அந்த தணியாத அடிமனது கோபம்தான் கிட்டதட்ட பெரிதாகி, அபயங்கரால் மேலும் ஊதப்பட்டு, கொலை செய்ய தூன்டுகிறது என்ற அடிநாதம் புரிய, எனக்கு நேரமாயிற்று.

அபயங்கர் சாகேத்ராமின் மனதை, பேசி தன் சித்தாந்தத்தின்பால் ஈர்ப்பது, அந்த நுண்ணரசியல், இதுபோன்ற விஷயங்கள் எல்லாம் எனக்கு மெல்ல புரிய ஆரம்பித்தது. சாகேத்ராம் மைதிலியிடம் காந்தி பற்றி அந்த ஃப்ளைட்டில் உரையாடுவது, அந்த 'ஓனாய்' வசனக்காட்சி, மஹாராஜாவும் அபயங்கரும் விவாதிப்பது, கிட்டதட்ட, சினிமாவில் இதுபோன்ற விஷயங்களை நான் முதன்முதலில் உணர்கிறேன். இரண்டாம், மூன்றாம் முறை எல்லாம் படம் பார்க்கப்போனபோது, இதுபோன்ற நுட்பங்களே என்னை மீண்டும் பார்க்க தூண்டியது. உலகப்படத்திற்கான முதல் அறிமுக்க வாசலாக எனக்கு ஹேராம் அமைந்தது. இன்னும் வாசலில் தான் நிற்கிறேன் என்பது வேரு விஷயம். ஆனால் இந்தப்படம் ஏற்படுத்திய ஆச்சர்யம் உற்சாகம் எல்லாம் நன்கு நினைவிருக்கிறது! மறக்கமுடியாதது!!

கமலின் மற்ற படங்கள் தேவர் மகன் கூட, இந்தளவு ஆழமில்லாமல், கடைகோடி ரசிகனுக்கும் எளிமையாகப்புரியும். தேவர் தலித் உள்பட எந்த அரசியலும் சுத்தமாகத்தெரியாமல் பார்த்துரசித்த படம் அது!

இந்தப்படத்தில் சிலபல இடங்கள் புரியாமல் போனாலும், ஆளாவந்தான் தெனாலி போன்ற படங்களைவிட என்னை அதிகம் ஈர்த்தது ஹே ராம். (தெனாலி பின்னர் பிடித்தது வேறு விஷயம்)

[sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar]

He mentions in HR
Lalwani: Road poorA bodies...unakku puriyAdhu nee South Indian
Saket: illai...puriyum

Wow! what a dialogue! In previous gen, there were movies like Baaratha Vilaas where the unity among diversity is shown in a very direct manner. Here, 2 friends, one south indian and another north guy. What a beauty this character has! When, Lalwani tries to skip the topic citing the geography, saketh refuses these physical border and says that he understands, and thus indirectly ask him to continue. What a simple but effective scene! Kind of Chetan baghat's '2 States' in a very crisp form!

[equanimus]

I think to truly understand what equa is talking about - why Kamal's (what we call as) artistic films (as opposed to commercial films ) are actualyl commercial - you must see "true"art movies like the malayalam ones where the character a) brushes teeth for 5 minutes in the movie. And it has no relevance to anything in the movie. Simply 5 minutes of screentime capturing a "Realistic" pal theichal b) a solitary cow grazing for 10 minutes. Same shot. for 10 minutes.

Well, I am ofcourse trivializing but I have seen such "art" movies too - leaving them aside as faux art movies, even some acclaimed art movies have nothing for the "commercial" viewer (I mean myself) and in that context, while Kamal gives us high art, he gives it to us in capsules quite relatable to a normal commercial film watcher - if only such a viewer can make a slight leap of sensibility and mental ability.
SKV, not sure I agree/. Veedu/Sandhya Raagam - the two BM movies which mathc your description were thoroughly engaging and enertaining unlike the Malayalam movies I talked about(Tooth brushing and Cow grazing)/Well, I don't know which Malayalam films you're referring to (duh!). But the point is, WITHOUT getting into the question of whether a film is engaging or not, it's possible to roughly estimate the commercial prospects of a film. An aravindmano or a kid-glove may find the films of Adoor and Aravindan engaging for a whole set of reasons, but they're way off the mainstream and are clearly WAY LESS commercial than the most offbeat of Kamal's films. Veedu and Sandhya Raagam (especially the latter, no coincidence it didn't even have a commercial release) are also films in that mould (i.e. not at all mainstream in the way Hey! Ram is) except that they may be more accessible for curious film viewers.

[V_S]

Wonderful discussion on Hey Ram. Sakala, your last post on HR was excellent!
equa, P_R, sakala excellent views on Hey Ram and its commercial aspects.

//P_R thanks for those hindi film recommendations, I have watched a few (do dhooni char, Rock on, Ishkiya, band baaja baarat...), but your list seems to be bigger. Not leaving anything it seems. :smile: Atleast the films you mentioned have indian subject/heart in it (if not mostly rural). May be these films have come at different times?. Good to know that option is not shut down. May be I am expecting too much having seen our films.//

[Nerd]

He mentions in HR
Lalwani: Road poorA bodies...unakku puriyAdhu nee South Indian
Saket: illai...puriyum

This is a friend who knows Saket was going to Calcutta and was there on Direct Action Day. Still he forgets and the only thing he remembers is the stereotype.
illai.. puriyum, only becuase he was directly affected, sari dhaanE? idhula enga irunthu national integration, bharathavlaas etc? :?

[P_R]

Nerdf, neenga SKV-yai dhaanE kEkkureeya? ennaiya illaiyE? :lol2:

I am sonnadhu, Lalwani managed to forget that his South Indian friend was -when he last saw him - heading to Calcutta - which turned out to be the epicenter of violence.
I found that to have some resonance with how Saket - who had a good Muslim friend - went on to be influenced by Hindu-nationalism, because he could buy into a stereotype.

[Nerd]

Yes, to SKV :-) Anyway I got that P_R.

The Marina beach dialock (which again is a stereotype if you think about it) does not equate with this. I mean here, the situation is entirely different. He says theriyin, only becuase he was directly involved and he does not want LalW to stop.

[equanimus]

Anyway to return to Mahanadhi...
But the inward-looking elegiac tone is very much there, no?

What he sees/goes through, is what it is about: காணாத சோகமெல்லாம் கண்கள் கண்டதடி
But there is a wistfulness in காவேரி தீரம் விட்டு கால்கள் வந்ததடி.

So I won't say 'big bad world out there' is a bad reading. A uber-simplistic version being Blessy/Mammootty's film paLunku.
Of course Mahanadhi is so much more. No denying that.Yes, but I see it not as a larger perspective the film offers but as a reflection of Krishna's feelings, some sort of an inner consistency of the character to put it in even vaguer terms. Disregarding my limitations in articulating this, I do feel there are two arcs to the film in general, one of Krishna's inner journey, two of how the film views his life in some sort of a detached gaze. Having said that, I concede that 'big bad world out there' is not a bad reading but it's a very limiting one.

Very good point.

The interval shot...light...up on a platform with 'minion' heads in the foreground underlines this.
The very next frame is awesome. Old prisoner sawing, Thulukkanam exits the frame uncomfortably. A moment later, we see why. Krishna walks into the frame. The old man says: vaNakkam thalaivA :rotfl: @ the choice of voice.

..and then the cop literally says: nee dhaan thalaivan-nu mudivAnadhukku appuram, poRuppu eduththukkaama irundhA eppadi?Yes, the interval scene best illustrates this point; also I suppose the primary reason why I thought of the word "headman."

[P_R]

I actually think the Marina line is unfair because TN is relatively more concerned about events in Mumbai/NorthIndies than the other way round. ippadi solradhum oru stereotype/prejudice dhaan. But I'll stick my neck out on this one. But I can see why he used it in the movie. He needed something to anchor the plot happening in Chennai. In 'A Wednesday', the story being placed in Mumbai was more 'natural'. UPO had to go the extra distance to justify the common man. Guwhati (Baruah - oru type-A overpronounce paNNuvaapla; lightA chippA irukkum :lol: ), Gujarat-nu extra-bit ellAm pOda vENdi vandhadhu.

[equanimus]

UPO was a bad choice for a Tamil remake. The realignment of the film to the kind of politics Kamal is sympathetic to, was also a non-starter i.e. failure. The only favourable point one can say for the film is that Kamal was a rather apt choice for such a vigilante film with his own history of Indian.
Guwhati (Baruah - oru type-A overpronounce paNNuvaapla; lightA chippA irukkum :lol: )I don't think I even parsed the Guwahati reference, but I vividly recall the funny pronunciation of 'Baruah.' Ha ha ha!

[SoftSword]

UPO did not work with me cos, i never was able to buy the character as a common man, mainly havin kamal in that role.

idhu oru karutthu dhaan....

[P_R]

SS, same for me. But think about it for a moment. None of us had a problem accepting him as a common man in Mahanadhi.
idhu sindhikka vENdiya vishayam allavA :-|

[jaiganes]

He mentions in HR
Lalwani: Road poorA bodies...unakku puriyAdhu nee South Indian
Saket: illai...puriyum

This is a friend who knows Saket was going to Calcutta and was there on Direct Action Day. Still he forgets and the only thing he remembers is the stereotype.
It is not just the "stereotype" - but the very basic knot of the film is how Saket keeps his demons locked up deep inside him.
Even his wife does not know about what happens with him - it is essentially how introvert the calcutta incidents have made him.
Though the graphic lizard gimmick conveys this to some extent, but nothing conveys it better than what you have highlighted.
In many ways it is different from the verbose Kamal thrusting dialogues that discuss such political stuff (similar to the napier bridge sequence in Mahanadhi).
Here it comes in the end when Saket meets Gandhiji - but Gandhiji does most of the talking in his own witty ways (wonderful turn by Naseer).

[SoftSword]

SS, same for me. But think about it for a moment. None of us had a problem accepting him as a common man in Mahanadhi.
idhu sindhikka vENdiya vishayam allavA :-|

lol... idhu naama sindhikka vendiya visayam illa... avar sindhikka vendiya visayam...
there are many reasons why it works in mahanadhi and not here... here the movie expects ppl to take him as a common man, second, maybe if he did this during the mahanadhi time it could hav suited him, but now he has grown in stature as a star and a person...

[P_R]

maybe if he did this during the mahanadhi time it could hav suited him, but now he has grown in stature as a star and a person...
You really think so.
I think he was always a huge star.
ippollAm avar, padangaLil/pAthirangaLil thannOda parsnaalty-yai konjam adhigamAvE channel paNRadhA thONudhu.
VV, UPO, MMA, Govindo san, Nalla.

ivanga ellAraiyum vida enakku pudichcha near-Kamal character: Prof. Selvam
adhula oru idhu irunch.

[groucho070]

The UPO character itself was unbelievable as common man, don't blame the actor/star. Beginning with the scene of him supposedly making some kinda weapon or something. Then, sitting coolly with all those gizmos, wiping his tears with the revolver (I mentioned this in my review), all that makes him a cool hero. Mahanadhi on the other hand shows the character at his most vulnerable, something that even non-married men can relate to (at that time, I was, that is why I am too scared to watch it now).

[sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar]

As Venki was discussing about what is commercial, masala, let me bring in an old interview, Read the very 1st question, asked by MaNappaarai Vijayakumaar!

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/1341/29114344.jpg

http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/9073/97915707.jpg

[sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar]

Nerd & P_R, yes its a mistake only! But not worried becos even my mistakes bringing good discussions! I propably think that i overlooked at Kamal the writer, at that moment, instead of Saketh Ram -> Lalwani forgot, that means, assumes that Saketh was NOT present in the Riot region. Even then he says Unakku Puriyaathu, not Unakku theriyaathu! Though, again, the writer probaly intended to convey the audience that South didn't experience the pain and struggle of what most of North ppl went thru, during independence, I am slightly confused, Puriyaathu means, the writer saying that Generally, South Indians not much caring about what happens in up north??

[sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar]

Can I post a harsh review of Hey Raam here?!? Onnu tayam paasaagum, another, 100% assured more meaningful talk will happen! saais is all yours, saga hubbers :)

[P_R]

Puriyaathu means, the writer saying that Generally, South Indians not much caring about what happens in up north??
Yes. That is general perception in the north.
That those in South did not witness the horrors of partition and thus don't understand what they went through.

[equanimus]

The UPO character itself was unbelievable as common man, don't blame the actor/star. Beginning with the scene of him supposedly making some kinda weapon or something. Then, sitting coolly with all those gizmos, wiping his tears with the revolver (I mentioned this in my review), all that makes him a cool hero.These elements are by the way a departure from the original film. (Especially the beginning scene doesn't even exist in the original. As are the clarifications regarding the politics of the vigilante act that Naseer's character simply refuses to give.) A couple of exceptions aside, all scenes are of course faithfully replayed, but again there are subtle changes in the tone that shows Kamal's character as 'more than just a common man.'

[P_R]

Wiping tears with revolver was a very :shock: WTH moment.
He could not have missed the point/aesthetics of 'A Wednesday' more than that.
I was disappointed with the way he had even received the film, to have dropped the ball that badly.

[equanimus]

Yeah, Naseer doesn't even have a revolver/gun in the original! But on the other hand, he manages to procure and set up the bombs. How, the film doesn't show. The remake basically tries to demystify this abstract idea of a common man by marking him in different ways. (At one point, Kamal even clarifies he is NOT a common man, but a terrorist who has set out to kill terrorists.)

[Nerd]

Wiping tears with revolver was a very :shock: WTH moment.

The worrying thing here is, in one of his interviews (Vijay TV) he seemed very thrilled about one of the aarvakkOLaaru audience on that show appreciating *that* scene :shock: :-( Was like, "idhellaam neenga note paNNaama vittruveengaLOnnu bayandhuttu irunthEn, now I feel a lot relieved".

[sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar]

Enna comedy boss!! 5 kilo RDX vaangi vanla fix panravaru, appavum oru terrorist escape aagittaannu therinjathum avanaiyum kolrathukkaaga paadupadra oruthan, Police station kulla Time bomb set panni athai cellphone moolam activate panravaru (though for boochaandi kaattifying) oru Gun vechirunthaa enna thappu?!? Athu thappu illennu aanappuram antha gun ai vechikittu kanna thodachaa enna, kathirikkaa vettunaa enna?!?

[P_R]

The worrying thing here is, in one of his interviews (Vijay TV) he seemed very thrilled about one of the aarvakkOLaaru audience on that show appreciating *that* scene :shock: :-( Was like, "idhellaam neenga note paNNaama vittruveengaLOnnu bayandhuttu irunthEn, now I feel a lot relieved".Yeah. Exactly. ippo facebook vERa. idhellAm oNNum nallA illai.



Enna comedy boss!! 5 kilo RDX vaangi vanla fix panravaru, appavum oru terrorist escape aagittaannu therinjathum avanaiyum kolrathukkaaga paadupadra oruthan, Police station kulla Time bomb set panni athai cellphone moolam activate panravaru (though for boochaandi kaattifying) oru Gun vechirunthaa enna thappu?!? Athu thappu illennu aanappuram antha gun ai vechikittu kanna thodachaa enna, kathirikkaa vettunaa enna?!?
Tupaci vachchu Mogenlyaalai suduradhukku ready-yA irundhArAkkum? pOnga baas.
pArkka style-A irukkumngradhukkAga senja maadhiri dhaan irunchch. thiNikkappatta sOgam ellAm solreengaLE, thiNikkappatta stylistics, dialogue-paththi ellAmum sollunga.

[Arvind Srinivasan]

Have to agree to PR, equa and Nerd....Never you get the feeling of a common man controlling things do you.....A Wednesday had that particular effect....The credits scene where he makes the bomb, him having a gun, references to his name being missed in the voters list, wiping of tears with the gun.....Nah!! this aint a common man....

[sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar]

Avar comman man illennu sollunga accept pannikkurom. Common man oda representative nnu vechikkurom.

ThiNikkappatta style nnu kooda accept pannikkurom. nallaarunch. athu pothum. Ithe maathiri oru thiNikkappatta dialog kooda irukku. Yetho pesumbothu "binaryaa bathil sollu" nnu Mohanlaal konjam athattiduvaaru. Odane namma comman manukku kovam vanthudum. Konja neram kazhichi, topic ellaam maari, vEra yetho pesitrukkumbothu, ivarum keppaaru "binary aa bathil sollunga" nnu. athu etho panchu dailaak maathiri maakkaLs whistle laam adichaanga :lol:

sari, paattu illa, keeroine illa. machaalaa phens konjamaachum enjoy pannattumnu vechiruppaarnnu, vittutten

[Plum]

Excellent point (though I haven't watched HR)!

Kind of similar reason that makes some MR movies so "anniyam" to watch!


app - :( - avar enna solRAr - nInga epdi interpret paNdrInga? Kamal made a pan-Indian movie, yes but not in the same way as Mani. He was fidel to every milieu that he took on unlike Mani, who is infidel to every milieu that appears in his movie, save for Chennai West Mambalam and Chennai Besant Nagar. That was a phenomenal achievement - leaving aside the other merits of Hey Ram. Feeyar, idhukku EdhAvadhu cinema vasanam solli illustrate paNNunga

[Plum]

ALL of us here totally get that you are disgusted and shocked at the suggestion that this sort of traumatic scene is conceived and shot as it'd be in a mainstream film.* We all get it. If you don't have anything to add beyond expressing your shock, please move on.

* If you care to think this through logically, are you saying the very presence of such a scene means it'll be treated the same way by all filmmakers irrespective of their style?!

equa participating in a discussion at this level - wow wow - stardust who kicked off this round of discussion vAzhga vaLarga

[app_engine]

app - :( - avar enna solRAr - nInga epdi interpret paNdrInga?

thappu ennOdadhu dhAN :oops:

HR-um pAkkAma, iruvarum pAkkAma, hub discussions / BO status mattumE vachchukkittu post paNNi irukkapdAdhu...

[tamizharasan]

Really great discussions on Mahanadhi and Hey Ram. My all time two favorites of KH. But we are spoiling the discussion by introducing UPO in the mix which I don't think justify KH's ability.

[Bala (Karthik)]

The worrying thing here is, in one of his interviews (Vijay TV) he seemed very thrilled about one of the aarvakkOLaaru audience on that show appreciating *that* scene :shock: :-( Was like, "idhellaam neenga note paNNaama vittruveengaLOnnu bayandhuttu irunthEn, now I feel a lot relieved".
:exactly: Was about to post this! :lol:

[sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar]

Nerd, regarding that Wiping tears with revolver & one guy recalling that, i recall another incident, an old malaysian interview at 2005. They were announcing a telefone no to call and ask question to kamal. there were questions from audience too. None of the questions where great and rousing kamal the great artist. Only one guy called thru fone and the question he asked, was liked by kamal very much. intelligent but simple question.

such questions are rare. he may be waiting for such ones. In that UPO show, that guy rightly recalled that question and kamal used that to highlight the audience intelligence, which is generally regarded low. His answer shud be taken generally not only limited to this situation. Anyways, per me, that situation itself is not bad(Wiping tears with revolver)

[sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar]

in fact, that interview had other things which were much sillier, like "ShaaptELaa", Shaa in the place of Saa

[P_R]

thuppAkkiyaal aam-aadmi-yin kaNNeer thudaikkapadum 'ngra padimaththukkAga revolverai thiNichittAnga'nRadhu dhaan praadhu.

[sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar]

எமக்கு அம்புட்டு தூரம் எல்லாம் எட்டலைங்க! ஆளை அழிக்கும், கண்ணீருக்கு காரணமாகக்கூடிய, ஒரு உயிர்க்கொல்லி ஆயுதத்தை கண்ணீர் துடைக்க பயன்படுத்தும் ஒரு அழகிய முரண் தான் எனக்கு பட்டது. மற்றபடி, காமன்மேன் என சொல்லிக்கிட்டாலும், ஈக்வா சொன்னாப்ல அவர் தீவிரவாதியை அழிக்கும் தீவிரவாதியாகவே தெரிகிறார். காமன் மேனின் பிரதிநிதி அவ்ளோதான். அதுகூட எல்லா காமன்மேன் களும் ஏற்றுக்கொள்ளப்போவதில்லை

[jaiganes]

i strongly object to discussing kaai like "UPO" when we want to discuss more about the kanis like mahanadhi and hey raam.

[Mahen]

Wiping tears with revolver was a very :shock: WTH moment.
He could not have missed the point/aesthetics of 'A Wednesday' more than that.
I was disappointed with the way he had even received the film, to have dropped the ball that badly.
Whats wrong with that scene? :roll: Natural reaction thaane..Are you expecting him to put his gun down and get a handkerchief? Kai-le iruntchi, so todhaicharu :) I myself have wiped tears using pens/rulers etc simply because i was holding it at that point of time :lol2:

[P_R]

Whats wrong with that scene? :roll:
The criminal charge is unnecessary possession of firearm

[equanimus]

Excellent point (though I haven't watched HR)!

Kind of similar reason that makes some MR movies so "anniyam" to watch!
app - :( - avar enna solRAr - nInga epdi interpret paNdrInga? Kamal made a pan-Indian movie, yes but not in the same way as Mani. He was fidel to every milieu that he took on unlike Mani, who is infidel to every milieu that appears in his movie, save for Chennai West Mambalam and Chennai Besant Nagar. That was a phenomenal achievement - leaving aside the other merits of Hey Ram. Feeyar, idhukku EdhAvadhu cinema vasanam solli illustrate paNNungaPlum/a_e, Mani Ratnam is in fact a good counter-example and to my mind definitely compares favourably (by miles) to Kamal's half-hearted but persistent attempts at Hindi cinema. Mani Ratnam when he sets out to make a Hindi film strives to make a proper, generic enough one. Kamal on the other hand casts himself as Jaiprakash Paswan in Chachi 420 and speaks awkward Hindi.

[Mahen]

oh ok ok :)

[Plum]

equa - :shock:. nAn enna solREn - ninga enna solRINga? I was talking about Hey Ram vs Mani's hind films. There is no comparision to how Kamal got his milieu right for every single milieu he used in Hey Ram vs generic no man's lands of Mani in all his films - not just hindi but also anything that is not BEsant Nagar or West Mambalam, Mani gets it vaguely generic only.

Chachi 420 ellAm nAn considerE panDradihillai(Nor its tamil counterpart). They have a different purpose completely.

Having said that, Apisek's Gujarati businessman? He got it absolutely right is it? Anything in that movie? enna pEsaRinga nInga?

[tamizharasan]

Mahanadhi Poster

[tamizharasan]

Plum/a_e, Mani Ratnam is in fact a good counter-example and to my mind definitely compares favourably (by miles) to Kamal's half-hearted but persistent attempts at Hindi cinema. Mani Ratnam when he sets out to make a Hindi film strives to make a proper, generic enough one. Kamal on the other hand casts himself as Jaiprakash Paswan in Chachi 420 and speaks awkward Hindi.

It is very difficult to bring the accent to 100%. Imagine north Indian actors speaking Tamil and good example is Ra One where SRK speaks Tamil. At least Kamal is better than most of them out there in adapting accent. It is all the restrictions of human being and it does not mean that you should not try anything different. He atleast tries better than anyone out there and pulls off better than most of them could.

[Plum]

Mani Ratnam when he sets out to make a Hindi film strives to make a proper, generic enough one
interesting choice of words. A generic one is the proper Hindi film, is it? You are right, ofcourse. And that's V_S's lament, too. I hope Kamal never makes the proper, authentic, generic Hindi film of the Manirathnam type.

[equanimus]

equa - :shock:. nAn enna solREn - ninga enna solRINga? I was talking about Hey Ram vs Mani's hind films. There is no comparision to how Kamal got his milieu right for every single milieu he used in Hey Ram vs generic no man's lands of Mani in all his films - not just hindi but also anything that is not BEsant Nagar or West Mambalam, Mani gets it vaguely generic only.

Chachi 420 ellAm nAn considerE panDradihillai(Nor its tamil counterpart). They have a different purpose completely.

Having said that, Apisek's Gujarati businessman? He got it absolutely right is it? Anything in that movie? enna pEsaRinga nInga?
interesting choice of words. A generic one is the proper Hindi film, is it? You are right, ofcourse. And that's V_S's lament, too. I hope Kamal never makes the proper, authentic, generic Hindi film of the Manirathnam type.Plum, I was commenting on (what I perceived as) a comparison between Kamal and Mani with regard to their Hindi film ventures, not just Hey! Ram vs. Mani's Hindi films. Hey! Ram is a strange beast and, as I said, a truly pan-Indian film in a way that not many films are, leave alone Mani Ratnam's ventures. But I stand by my point about Mani Ratnam striving to make generic enough Hindi films that are meant for audiences spread across the subcontinent. Hey! Ram is of course an very unusually ambitious film in terms of striving for authenticity and I don't think it'd be wrong to say that its very plurality alienated it from most sections of its target audience. Here I'm principally in agreement with P_R's argument here (though I may differ in specific aspects/nuances).
I don't think it is just about not wanting to be cool etc.
Bhojpuri, Maithili ellAm eppadi dhilli-la puriyin?

enakku OraLavukku sumArA generic Hindi puriyum. I didn't understand many lines in Omkara, OLLO (panchaap portions).
Older nawabi Urdu I can't understand. A movie set in Lucknow will have to sound like that. Will it 'run' in the metros. Subtitle pOdungO! Subtitle pOdungO!

Paan Singh Tomar paartheengaLA. How it was? Authentic AND understandable?

[Plum]

But what is your complaint? That Kamal creates a Jaiprakash Paswan without doing justice to the Paswan part of it. That's why I asked when Mani created Apisekbhai, did he craete a gujarati biz man? No, right. He was as authentic as Paswan. In that sense, Paswan is your generic all-india appealing Hindi film feller. Box office validates the claim. In other words, Chachi 420 is the generic hindi film(although pretending to create rooted paswans and marathi middle class ammas) that a Mani could have made.

So, you taking Hey am and then comparing to Mani and saying Mani makes a proper generic movie si a very inappropriate comparison.

In other words, Apisek in Guru is Mani's Paswan - generic as you claimed to appeal to all India audience but awkward like Paswan if you consider authenticity. So, why do you compare Paswan infavourably with Mani's generic movies/characters/results?

[Plum]

And Hey Ram is a proper indian film. If there is ONE, SINGLE, SOLITARY movie in Indian film history that can claim to be "Indian", this is it.

[equanimus]

Oh, simply because Kamal's Hindi wasn't nowhere as natural and unobtrusive as Abhishek's. I'm of course not saying Abhishek's portrayal is more authentic but it's basically unobtrusive and not out of place in a Hindi film, that's all. That, in an ideal world, even a South Indian's strained Hindi should be fine in a Hindi film is something I'd also agree with, but that's hardly the case. And I don't know if Chachi 420 was a box office hit. I made this point in the context of Kamal's Hindi films not reaching out to the Hindi film audiences whereas all Mani Ratnam's films seemed to have a fair chance. If they do or did, I'm glad.

[Bala (Karthik)]

And like speaking five languages in Telugu, Mani has started making Hindi films (or generic) in Tamil. Isn't it his natural state? If he has to strive for something, it is to make a Tamil film

[equanimus]

Mani is not authentic, glosses over-nu ellAm sollunga, there's a certain degree of validity in these criticisms. But Tamil-ukku relevance-E illAma edukkuRAr-ngRadhu konjam migaiyAna kuRRachchAttu. Even in Raavanan (which was initially conceived as just a Hindi film and even stuff like "bak bak bak" found its way to the Tamil version!), he set out to establish some semblance of authenticity of milieu for the Tamil version. Choice of locations isn't the only thing, you see. For a bilingual, konjam mix paNNi dhAn eduththAgaNum.

And he makes bilinguals only if the subject resonates in both Hindi and Tamil. Which is true for Kamal too, but again something like Hey! Ram is an odd beast.

[equanimus]

My primary point is about his striving hard to make a film that reaches out to the audience. This is not just about the rootedness of the subject and treatment as I've been clarifying (in saying that my point is not about authenticity), but about crafting a mainstream film. He has made two proper bilinguals, of which one is with (more or less) two different set of actors so that the films could be released as proper mainstream ventures with enough buzz on both worlds.

[Plum]

he set out to establish some semblance of authenticity of milieu for the Tamil versionE
Explain.

[Plum]

And I don't know if Chachi 420 was a box office hit. I made this point in the context of Kamal's Hindi films not reaching out to the Hindi film audiences whereas all Mani Ratnam's films seemed to have a fair chance. If they do or did, I'm glad.

Lazy theory.
Dil Se - widely panned by your "all india generic" folks
Roja - tamil primarily but with enough all India masala to succeed generically. But you'd agree that was one movie which even Mani wouldnt have made witht he Hindi market in mind. It was the accident that started many incidents in Mani's career

Bombay - a perfect example of your theory. Agreed.

Yuva - Om Puri's Calcutta politician is in no man's land and certainly worse than Paswan by the standards you set for Kamal. Certainly no all India generic appeal in this movie's characters. Compare Bharathiraja in tamil, and in general, how comfy in the skins the tamil actors/characterw were, and how much it made the movie
palatable in tamil

Guru - succesful, yes but Apisek is a Gujaratai business man. He had no business being the typical generic indhi feller, save for the occasional "bijnej".

Ravan - he he you talk about this one

Your claim is really tenuous and weak. It is hard to generalise the way you have.

[equanimus]

E
Explain.Veerappan vs. police backdrop establish paNNiruppAppalayE, adhaich chonnEn. In fact, it was almost like Mani had thought of this kind of subject for Tamil earlier but didn't get to making it. The name Veera, a govt.'s messenger etc.

Lazy theory.
Dil Se - widely panned by your "all india generic" folks
Roja - tamil primarily but with enough all India masala to succeed generically. But you'd agree that was one movie which even Mani wouldnt have made witht he Hindi market in mind. It was the accident that started many incidents in Mani's career

Bombay - a perfect example of your theory. Agreed.

Yuva - Om Puri's Calcutta politician is in no man's land and certainly worse than Paswan by the standards you set for Kamal. Certainly no all India generic appeal in this movie's characters. Compare Bharathiraja in tamil, and in general, how comfy in the skins the tamil actors/characterw were, and how much it made the movie
palatable in tamil

Guru - succesful, yes but Apisek is a Gujaratai business man. He had no business being the typical generic indhi feller, save for the occasional "bijnej".

Ravan - he he you talk about this one

Your claim is really tenuous and weak. It is hard to generalise the way you have.Dil Se had a huge buzz. (Must be his biggest Hindi venture in that respect.) That's what I mean by a "fair chance." No film can be a definite hit, which ultimately depends on whether the audiences lap it up or not.
As for Yuva, I agree that Bharathiraja was better than Om Puri, but again it seems you can't help reflexively looking at how authentic and good the portrayal is (in your viewpoint), rather than the debate at hand. I'm not talking about authenticity but about making a proper Hindi film. Overdone Bengali accent is very much within this framework like how overdone Seth Tamil is within the framework of a mainstream Tamil film. Again this film too didn't do well (the Tamil one certainly did better even if it wasn't big), no denying that.
And btw, Bombay was after all just dubbed to Hindi like Roja, so it's not a good example for my theory, but Bala's point about making some sort of a national film in Tamil. But it's true that Mani had the Hindi version in mind operating in the wake of the big success of Roja.
Raavan-ukku appuRamA vArEn. :)

[equanimus]

Your claim is really tenuous and weak. It is hard to generalise the way you have.I think it's quite apparent. Mani's Hindi films (or Bombay films if you will) are more "Hindi" than Kamal's. Isn't this precisely what angers many Tamil film viewers, his migration to/privileging of Hindi cinema in recent years? Kamal hasn't done this. I've no inclination to judge whether this is right or wrong. All I'm saying is Kamal's attempts look half-hearted in comparison to Mani's.

[kid-glove]

Even Hey! Ram wasn't a generic hindi film, was it? Marathi-Bengali-Tamil, more like. They only 'spoke' indhi..

Yuva, Guru both failures if you read in to bihari-bengali, Gujju nuances, but works as a cleansed out 'generic' Indhi films.

I haven't lived in predominantly 'indhi-lands' but almost all my generic indhi guys (ones settled in Bombay & geographically aregional pan-Indian gentlemen) treat Mani's films to be more aspecific & less rooted (duh!) than KH's, and as a result, seemingly more 'generic' hindi film.

Roja, Bombay still treated as 'dubbed films'. 'Dil Se' as a no-man's land film with Indhi faces & places which sort of worked, but it didn't show in box-office.

Biggest non-Indhi factor about KH's films is KH himself.

[kid-glove]

This isn't even a moot-point. Unless I got 'generic' totally wrong.

[Plum]

I sort of am getting equa's view now.(Vazhakkam pOla vagueA dhAn puriyudhu). Agree on the Bombay thing - it was almost Roja like in that it was primarily made for tamil market. But yes, slowly, the generic indhi pandering had started there in a small way. But as git observed, KH is the biggest anti-generic-gindhi factor there. Then saarug and apisek helped in the generic indhi mode of the later ones. But box offivewise, even that pandering didn't help Mani much I guess. Idhukku west mambalam/besant nagar padam eduththu tamizhla vuttutundhaa tamizhla oru genre pozhaochirukkum

[SoftSword]

apdi ellaam paattha peepli live ellaam indhi padamae illai...

[sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar]

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/576468_10150965517519009_506318221_n.jpg

[NOV]

Please take note that this thread will be merged with main Kamalahassan discussions thread soon.

[P_R]

Pls merge with the SIndhanai Selvar thread

[NOV]

Done PR :)

[MADDY]

Veerappan vs. police backdrop establish paNNiruppAppalayE, adhaich chonnEn. In fact, it was almost like Mani had thought of this kind of subject for Tamil earlier but didn't get to making it. The name Veera, a govt.'s messenger etc.

wow, good analgoy....


Dil Se had a huge buzz. (Must be his biggest Hindi venture in that respect.) That's what I mean by a "fair chance." No film can be a definite hit, which ultimately depends on whether the audiences lap it up or not.
As for Yuva, I agree that Bharathiraja was better than Om Puri, but again it seems you can't help reflexively looking at how authentic and good the portrayal is (in your viewpoint), rather than the debate at hand. I'm not talking about authenticity but about making a proper Hindi film. Overdone Bengali accent is very much within this framework like how overdone Seth Tamil is within the framework of a mainstream Tamil film. Again this film too didn't do well (the Tamil one certainly did better even if it wasn't big), no denying that.
And btw, Bombay was after all just dubbed to Hindi like Roja, so it's not a good example for my theory, but Bala's point about making some sort of a national film in Tamil. But it's true that Mani had the Hindi version in mind operating in the wake of the big success of Roja.
Raavan-ukku appuRamA vArEn. :)

Dil se was the first "bollywood" film to penetrate UK top 10.........Guru is Mani's biggest BO hit in his career, inflation, deflation, petrol price hike adjusted etc........ironically, though......

its against the very design of bollywood to be rooted to any mileu or a particular state.....even in most authentic representation of bambayya mileu, u'll find more characters speaking neutralised hindi than bambayya hindi...........the masters of bollywood's music like SDB, RDB or Kji-Aji never aspire to be "rooted" anywhere.......given its age, bollywood itself is a mileu now.......Mani, whose films have a abstract mileu and more of no-man's land benefits directly from such design.......even AR, whose music is more "generic" than specific benefitted from this design but ofcourse thalaivar has the ability to belt a "rooted" ruth aagayi re(1947 Earth), mangala mangala too.....

even Anjali was a huge craze in north india and dalapathy made heads turn........but i feel, it was AR's music and its reach in bollwyood which truly encouraged Mani to go pan-indian......i now understand why people say AR spoiled Mani.......

but kamal, yea, well ah, does sound tamil when he makes hindi movies too.......

[Anban]

please dont discuss some over hyped directors here .. upper middle class brahmin life thavira ethuvum theriyaathavanellaam India's best director-aam .. enna koduma sir ithu :banghead:

[Plum]

It is NOT against bollywood design to be specific. idhellAm nIngaLA sollikkaRadhu dhAn. Even during its worst period in the 80s, Hindi Film industry made its cult classics like JBDY, and a whole host of reasonably succesful parallel films. Infact, the parallel film industry thrived in the 70s and 80s. Shyam Benagal was a reasonably succesful director for a while. It was the allure of his initial success that he continued to get funds until Zubeidaa to make movies. Basu Chatterjee for a while was very succesful in marrying a deeply rooted sensibility to commercial success, as was Hrishida. adhukkappuRam, a lot of bogus parallel movie makers squandered the commercial opporutnities the 70s opened up for the honest movie makers like Benegal.

Ada theriyAdhavaLukku...ngaRA mAdhiri, people have abstracted Bollywood as a no man's land milieu just because of the failure of certain film makers to make rooted movies.

SDB borrowed heavily from Bengali folk, and it showed in his output. RDB could definitely be considered a precursor to ARR, in that he made his own genre, and was heavily interested in amalgamating "world music" into popular Indian music. Granted. But you cant include SDB and Kji-Aji just like that into a group like that. A lot of Kji-Aji's 80s output could mislead you into thinking so - but know ye that this was after Viju Shah became a big factor as an assistant in their music. Otherwise, you could hardly call them generic in the sense you are talking about.


And let's not forget that it is easy being generic compared to being specific - and usually, an artist can be only as specific as his influences, childhood and his background. It takes a special film maker to be specific across milieus as in Hey Ram. Let's not tout being able to tap the generic tropes as an achievement - it is the default setting for every filmmaker outside his comfort zone.

[P_R]

Plum, Hindi history ellAm theriyAdhu, so correct my flaws.

Benegal - Ankur was kinda odd as a Hindispeaking movie set in Andhra(?), right? Some parts are a Hyderabadi-Hindi. But they were wise enough to not use that fully and restrict reach. No? Junoon, Mandi had similarly limited 'local' flavour (dialect etc.) but otherwise his movies - well made as they were - weren't quite Omkara - if you get what I am saying. Did you feel the Marathi portions of Bhumika were authentic?

Basu Chatterjee?? What were his non-Mumbai movies?? In the Tina Munim movie, he shows the Mumbai-Goan-Christian locale (Pearl Padamsee singing kabhi kushi kabhi gham), but that apart he was always strittly Mumbai urban.

The offbeat cinema - for instance, Sai Paranjpe (Sparsh, Katha) are all quite urban. Naturally the language was something that could reach everyone.

This is what I meant when I said that if you want to make a movie in a Hindi that will be understood by all - you have to either restrict your subjects or give a taste of local-flavour but stay within the mainstream language (Ankur).

paruthiveeran ellAm edukka mudiyaadhu. So let us bear that in mind when criticizing Hindi films 'ngrEn. That is all.

btw equa, you had qualified your agreement with me on this. Want to elaborate?

[Ilayathalapathy Fan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1UP5Gw1RVc excellent classic comedy scene from panchantantiram one of my fav movies

[app_engine]

Didn't realize that the mahAnadhi discussions got merged into this thread...was searching for that thread to post a link in the SPB-IR thread in the IR forum for the sriranga song...

oru vazhiyA pidichchu adhula link-iyAchchu :-)

[app_engine]

The post in IR-SPB thread on sriranga ranganAthanin pAtham (http://www.mayyam.com/talk/showthread.php?8541-The-Golden-Era-of-Dr-IR-and-Dr-SPB-306-புதுப்புது-அர்த்தங்கள்-songs&p=871762&viewfull=1#post871762)

[equanimus]

Biggest non-Indhi factor about KH's films is KH himself.
But as git observed, KH is the biggest anti-generic-gindhi factor there.Exactly. adhunAla dhAnE casting himself was the first thing I mentioned. Mani Ratnam has never taken this sort of 'glaring' missteps when venturing into making a Hindi film.

btw equa, you had qualified your agreement with me on this. Want to elaborate?Oh, not on what you had said in that post. I meant to say we might subsequently disagree if we continue further discussing the specifics. For instance, though Hindi films are generic in the ways we've discussed, they are also populated with some archetypal characters as opposed to simply unmarked characters in an urban milieu (or Bombay or what have you). adhaich cholla vandhEn.

[equanimus]

wow, good analgoy....illaiyA pinna... Remember one of the locals also speaks in Kannada in the police investigation scene. enakkennamO, avarukku indha idea munnayE irundhirukkaNumnu thONudhu. And remember even RGV had an eye on Ramayana (though the Ram there was pretty much a non-actor, pun intended!) in his Jungle.

[Bala (Karthik)]

Alavandhaan Ecstacy trip


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPamUI5tGNk

My favorite part is towards the end, from 8:20
trying to find the "jail" break sequences...

[Bala (Karthik)]

Nandu kills Manisha


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=BxzGF3ldgCQ&NR=1

[P_R]

Started watching Mumbai Xpress.
It's kinda fun I say. After MMA I am able to appreciate this one better, yEn edhukkunu solla theriyalai.

The first time he is in a taxi with Pasupathy (when they don't know he is deaf). The mutual misunderstanding is not just about his disabilities, Avinasi is on a different plane.

When he cries seeing the begging kid with the baby

பசுபதி: ஐயய்யே என்ன இப்படி சின்ன புள்ள மாதிரி கண்ணு கலங்கிக்கின்னு (thinking he is crying about his B-i-L)
கமல்: சாரி...என்னடா இப்படி சின்ன புள்ள மாதிரி கண்ணுஹலங்குறானேன்னு பாக்குறீயளா :lol: எனக்கு பழைய நினைப்பு வந்துருச்சு. நான் இந்த சைஸ் இருப்பேன். எங்கக்கா துர்க்கா என்னைய இடுப்புல வச்சுகிட்டு இந்த மாதிரி சிக்குனல்ல பிச்சை எடுக்கும்
வையாபுரி: துர்க்கா பிச்சை எடுத்துச்சா? நம்பவே முடியலைல்ல...ராஜூவை பார்த்தா தானே அப்படி இருக்கு :lol:
கமல்: எதிர் சிக்னலை எங்கம்மா பாத்துக்கிருவாங்க
பசுபதி: (fake superficial commiseration) இப்படி தான் கடவுள் நல்லவங்களையா சோதிப்பார் :lol:
(but what Kamal means is..)
கமல்: அந்தக் காலம் மாதிரி வராது. அது வரம். இடுப்புல சாலியா உக்காந்து சாப்டுகிட்டே இருப்பேன். இப்போ எதுக்கெடுத்தாலும் வேலை
:rotfl:

எனக்கு நேர் ரோட்டுல ரொம்ப நேரம் வண்டி போச்சுன்னா தலை சுத்திகிட்டு வரும் :lol:

[P_R]

Offering to speak Kannada (??) to the Telugu thambu

Avinasi (after much effort): elli idhE? elli-nA enge dhaanE? aaspathirikku enna saar telungula
Thambu: ithikO tamillavE cheppi saavu

:lol:

[Cinemarasigan]

Offering to speak Kannada (??) to the Telugu thambu

Avinasi (after much effort): elli idhE? elli-nA enge dhaanE? aaspathirikku enna saar telungula
Thambu: ithikO tamillavE cheppi saavu

:lol:

:lol:

[Cinemarasigan]

Started watching Mumbai Xpress.
It's kinda fun I say. After MMA I am able to appreciate this one better, yEn edhukkunu solla theriyalai.

The first time he is in a taxi with Pasupathy (when they don't know he is deaf). The mutual misunderstanding is not just about his disabilities, Avinasi is on a different plane.

When he cries seeing the begging kid with the baby

பசுபதி: ஐயய்யே என்ன இப்படி சின்ன புள்ள மாதிரி கண்ணு கலங்கிக்கின்னு (thinking he is crying about his B-i-L)
கமல்: சாரி...என்னடா இப்படி சின்ன புள்ள மாதிரி கண்ணுஹலங்குறானேன்னு பாக்குறீயளா :lol: எனக்கு பழைய நினைப்பு வந்துருச்சு. நான் இந்த சைஸ் இருப்பேன். எங்கக்கா துர்க்கா என்னைய இடுப்புல வச்சுகிட்டு இந்த மாதிரி சிக்குனல்ல பிச்சை எடுக்கும்
வையாபுரி: துர்க்கா பிச்சை எடுத்துச்சா? நம்பவே முடியலைல்ல...ராஜூவை பார்த்தா தானே அப்படி இருக்கு :lol:
கமல்: எதிர் சிக்னலை எங்கம்மா பாத்துக்கிருவாங்க
பசுபதி: (fake superficial commiseration) இப்படி தான் கடவுள் நல்லவங்களையா சோதிப்பார் :lol:
(but what Kamal means is..)
கமல்: அந்தக் காலம் மாதிரி வராது. அது வரம். இடுப்புல சாலியா உக்காந்து சாப்டுகிட்டே இருப்பேன். இப்போ எதுக்கெடுத்தாலும் வேலை
:rotfl:

எனக்கு நேர் ரோட்டுல ரொம்ப நேரம் வண்டி போச்சுன்னா தலை சுத்திகிட்டு வரும் :lol:
:lol:

enga paattheenga sir, DVD market-la irukkara maadhiri theriayalayE...

[P_R]

I saw it on youtube : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WC6DT5mzL_M&feature=relmfu


With bashful embarrassment I recant my earlier dissing of MX.
I guess it was just a deep disappointment that it was not the film I expected, that I never got out of.
It's a brilliant film. Yes, it's got some sloppy parts but overall it's more than excellent. I always wanted to revisit it after liking MMA.

Only Kamal fossible

[groucho070]

P_R, well said. Glad you like it. My only problem with initial viewing was the digital filming that didn't quite cut it in the cinema. Weird feel, though on smaller screen they seem okay. Superb writing.

Edit. One of the first proper "heist" movie. I think they never bettered it, even if there were some successes which are now forgettable.

[sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar]

MTV Color, European comedy nnu ellaam etho sonnaaru thalaivar. Athu enannu aaraachum sollungappaa!

[venkkiram]

Nandu kills Manisha


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=BxzGF3ldgCQ&NR=1


மிருகம் கொன்று மிருகம் கொன்று கடவுள் வளர்க்கப் பார்க்கின்றேன். ஆனால்...( இந்த ஒரு வார்த்தைக்கு எப்படி அழுத்தம் கொடுத்து உணர்வு பூர்வமாக உச்சரிக்கிறார்! :notworthy: ) கடவுள் கொன்று உணவாய் தின்று மிருகம் மட்டும் வளர்கிறதே!

"முன்னயிட்டத் தீ முப்புறத்திலே! பின்னயிட்டத் தீ தென்னிலங்கையிலே! அன்னையிட்டத் தீ அடிவயிற்றிலே! யாதுமிட்டத் தீ மூழ்கவே மூழ்கவே!" - காட்சியை எப்படி மொழியால் செழுமைப் படுத்தனும் என்பதற்கு ஒரு சோறு பதம்!

[P_R]

Look at me http://dagalti.blogspot.in/2013/01/there-cant-be-smoke-and-mirrors-without.html

[P_R]

The VirumANdi mirrors thing is from an old post by former hubber kannannn.

[Cinemarasigan]

One rare photo of Kamal with daughters..

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BBICytKCQAAqELh.jpg:large

[Anban]

akshara :thumbsup:

[P_R]

And Kurudhi Punal is the official remake of Govind Nihalani's Drohkaal (starring Om Puri & Naseeruddin Shah). Watch Drohkaal for the realism (which was missing in KP) and Om Puri's measured performance. Drohkaal was like an amateurish school play compared to the
I find it unfortunate that people tend to only talk about the better production values and finesse - as if that was all(!) Kamal brought to the table. He fundamentally elevated the writing and made it the piece of art it is. May I interest you in my post (http://dagalti.blogspot.in/2011/08/why-kurudhippunal-kicks-drohkaals-ass.html) about this.


I dont understand what you guys are talking about. Kurudhipunal was directed by P C Sriram!
ShabbA!
Who was THE principal creator is something everyone except those who refuse to see, can see.
I guess you are of the opinion that the auteur Sundar C directed AnbE Sivam, because the title card says so.

Anyway I vaguely remember we had this discussion earlier and you are particular about sticking by the label on the can. Suit yourself. But atleast spare us from expressing faux surprise on 'I don't understand why you are discussing as if this is a film directed by Kamal. It is not. The label does not say so'.

One of us will then say 'it jolly well is, any doubts please watch Meera and vAnam vasappadum' and then you will point to the irrefutably final artistic signature that is the title-card.

Shall we call this dance done for now.

[tamizharasan]

P_R
In my case I saw Guna and Mahanadhi and then came to a conclusion that vishwaroopam is ghost directed by Santhana Bharathai. Ippa enna seiveenga?

[venkkiram]

P_r..

எனக்கு ரொம்ப நாளா குருதிப்புனலின் ஒரு காட்சியைப் பற்றி பேசணும் என ஆசை. சரி.. இந்த வாய்ப்பை பயன்படுத்திக்க ஆசை..
படத்தின் ஒவ்வொரு காட்சியும் கதை நகர்தலுக்கு படிக்கட்டு போல அமைத்திருக்கும் வேளையில் ஒரு காட்சி மட்டும் கமல் ஏன் திரைப்படத்தில் வைத்தார் என தெரிந்து கொள்ள ஆசை. சிறையிலிருந்து பத்ரியை என்கவுண்டரில் தீர்த்துக் கட்ட வெளியெ அழைத்துச் சென்று வாக்குவாதத்தில் மட்டுமே ஈடுபட்டு, திரும்ப சிறைச்சாலைக்கே அழைத்து வந்து விடுவார். அதை கமல் திரைக்கதையில் வைக்க வேண்டிய அவசியம் என்ன? ஆதியின் அந்த மனமாற்றம் எதைக் காட்டுகிறது? என்கவுண்டர் என உணர்ந்தால் பத்ரி எப்படியாவது உண்மைகளை கக்கிவிடுவான் என்ற கணிப்பா? "வீரம்னா என்ன தெரியுமா உனக்கு? என்ற உரையாடலை அவர் சிறையிலேயே பேசியிருக்கலாமே!

[thamiz]

Drohkaal was like an amateurish school play compared to the
I find it unfortunate that people tend to only talk about the better production values and finesse - as if that was all(!) Kamal brought to the table. He fundamentally elevated the writing and made it the piece of art it is. May I interest you in my post (http://dagalti.blogspot.in/2011/08/why-kurudhippunal-kicks-drohkaals-ass.html) about this.


ShabbA!
Who was THE principal creator is something everyone except those who refuse to see, can see.
I guess you are of the opinion that the auteur Sundar C directed AnbE Sivam, because the title card says so.

Anyway I vaguely remember we had this discussion earlier and you are particular about sticking by the label on the can. Suit yourself. But atleast spare us from expressing faux surprise on 'I don't understand why you are discussing as if this is a film directed by Kamal. It is not. The label does not say so'.

One of us will then say 'it jolly well is, any doubts please watch Meera and vAnam vasappadum' and then you will point to the irrefutably final artistic signature that is the title-card.

Shall we call this dance done for now.

I look at issues like this in a different angle than you do. If I're PC Sriram, I would be seriously offended in this situation. If you wish to call it as it is Kh who directed this film, that's fine with me. But let me take things in my own way. :)

[Arvind Srinivasan]

P_r..

எனக்கு ரொம்ப நாளா குருதிப்புனலின் ஒரு காட்சியைப் பற்றி பேசணும் என ஆசை. சரி.. இந்த வாய்ப்பை பயன்படுத்திக்க ஆசை..
படத்தின் ஒவ்வொரு காட்சியும் கதை நகர்தலுக்கு படிக்கட்டு போல அமைத்திருக்கும் வேளையில் ஒரு காட்சி மட்டும் கமல் ஏன் திரைப்படத்தில் வைத்தார் என தெரிந்து கொள்ள ஆசை. சிறையிலிருது பத்ரியை என்கவுண்டரில் தீர்த்துக் கட்ட வெளியெ அழைத்

One of the best scenes from the movie. I will try to possible explanation from my side. One of the recurring themes in the movie is that of a man reaching his breaking point in trying to stand by his principles. If you observe the dialogue from the scene - " Ippa puriyutha. Oru manushana avan porumai oda elaikkae veratti avanuknu kedaikka vendiya nyaayatha parichitta avan onna maari kobam vanthu enna maari theevaravaathi aayiduvaan". This directly refers to the above mentioned theme. Adhi's been pushed to his limits and almost commits to killing him. This would have gone completely against his stand of nermai, a virtue that he upholds.

[P_R]

But let me take things in my own way. :)
And the way is Santhabarathi directed Guna, Mahanadhi and Sundar C directed AnbE Sivam, is it?
illAinA avanga reNdu pEr offend aayidap pORAnga.

[NOV]

http://sphotos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/554472_10151359422309454_1195509395_n.jpg

[P_R]

Adhi's Last and final letter indicates that he himself 'finally' understood the ambivalence:

"theeviravaathikaL piRappathillai; uruvAkkappadukiRaarkaL; avarkaL uruvAkkappaduvathil arasiyalukkum, arasAngathukum perum pangu uLLadhu.....nALaiya thalaimuRai vazhipadappOgum kadavuL thuppAkki vadivil illAmal pArthuk koLLungaL..nadandhu mudinthavai sila aththiyAyangaLE - kathai innum mudiyavillai - adhai thayavu seithu mudithu vaiyyungaL"

This with the final shot of Narasimhan's son attacking Adhi's son - reinforces this. The writer isnt talking about the "Good vs Evil", but just a melancholic recounting of the Tragedy that has befallen a society not based on Civilization, natural justice but one that is a Authoritarian Entity which has a Shining wrapper of a democratic State where most of the citizens are mere puppets to the realisation process of an empowered "few".
Hmm.. Aadhi is indeed aware of the genuine grouse that creates Badris. 'You seem to be a man driven by ideology' is something he acknowledges first up.
We can see why Aadhi is the interrogator and not Abbas. Abbas can't see the other side and sees only black or white 'what sh*t are you talking man, endha nErathilaiyum neeyO naanO andha mAdhiri seyvOmA'. He is not able to see the human other side, even when it happens to someone close to him (perhaps he was not as close to Srinivasan as Adhi was in the first place)

Aadhi knew this externally. But only when it hits closer to home does he begin to realize that his fundamental beliefs are plastic. And then it takes another shock for him to recover and he has to take what he started to its natural conclusion. Very aware that he has not solved the problem in its entirety.

Though he says 'mudiththu vaiyungaL' Aadhi does not have a solution. He realizes the hopelessness of the situation.

Anyway, the reason I wanted to invoke KP is very specific.
Though Aadhi prides himself on being a 'romba nErmaiyAna komban' - it is only we the audience who is privy to the fact that he condones the killing of innocents as long as the cause is his, while judging Badri for EXACTLY the same.

This keeps coming up in various places in the film. What gives Aadhi the conviction that he is right? Merely being part of the establishment. And to what extent does he represent it? By playing by its laws (உன் முட்டாள்தனமான சட்டம், நீ நினைக்கிற எதையுமே செய்ய விடாது), or by circumventing the laws to serve the 'larger interests of the establishment', but then does it fully align with his சமுதாயக் கோபம் - or does he believe it does?

You can see the plainclothes vs. uniform reversals in many places (thanks to equanimus for pointing it out once).

The last time I watched it I was impressed by the scene where Badri escapes. Prasad and Narasimman - both wearing the police uniforms - aid him.
But what a difference between the two pretenders wearing uniforms. The one who pretends and serves for ideology lives. The one who pretends and serves the cause for -assumedly- mercenary reasons is killed. In fact Prasad may even be remembered as a hero who died in the cause of the nation!!

[P_R]

This is as bad as discounting the presence of Mortimer wheeler in Hey Ram!
Oh idhu yardstickகாவே ஆயிருச்சா :lol2:

நான் அப்பொ பொறக்கலியே...நான் உன் கூட பொறந்தவன்டாn - which is quite unmissably THE crux of the film, not to mention supplementary clarifications like 'Gandhi was right, we can be brothers' - இதெல்லாம் பஞ்சுமுட்டாயா?

Any reading that even slightly deviates from positing Kamal as a Periyarin prachAra beerangi is a calculated, invidious attempt to suppress, oppress and depress-னே சொன்னா ஒரு கருத்தையும் உருப்படியா விவாதிக்க முடியாது. Atleast acknowledge that Kamal has a whole lot more to say than that.

இல்லைன்னா மைமகாரா 'open the bloody gates man I am the boss'க்கு கூட அர்த்தம் கற்பிக்கலாம். பல்லாயிரக்கணக்கான ஆண்டுகாலமாய், கோடானுகோடி மக்களுக்கு மூடிக்கிடந்த கதவுகளை திறக்கச்சொல்லி திராவிடக்கலைஞன் மக்கள் சார்பாக கர்ஜித்த வசனம். இதை மறுப்பவர்களுக்கு agenda உண்டு என்பதை விழுப்புணர்வுடன் கண்டுகொள்ளுங்கள். செறுக்குடன் அலையும் 'மேட்டுக்குடியே' நீங்கள் அந்நியமொழியைத் தான் கேட்பீர்கள் என்றறிந்தே அவன் ஆங்கிலத்தில் சொல்கிறான். உள்ளே நுழைய விட மாட்டேன் என்று வாயில்காக்கும் 'ஒரு சிலரு'க்கு இன்னி சங்கு

[HonestRaj]

இல்லைன்னா மைமகாரா 'open the bloody gates man I am the boss'க்கு கூட அர்த்தம் கற்பிக்கலாம். பல்லாயிரக்கணக்கான ஆண்டுகாலமாய், கோடானுகோடி மக்களுக்கு மூடிக்கிடந்த கதவுகளை திறக்கச்சொல்லி திராவிடக்கலைஞன் மக்கள் சார்பாக கர்ஜித்த வசனம். இதை மறுப்பவர்களுக்கு agenda உண்டு என்பதை விழுப்புணர்வுடன் கண்டுகொள்ளுங்கள். செறுக்குடன் அலையும் 'மேட்டுக்குடியே' நீங்கள் அந்நியமொழியைத் தான் கேட்பீர்கள் என்றறிந்தே அவன் ஆங்கிலத்தில் சொல்கிறான். உள்ளே நுழைய விட மாட்டேன் என்று வாயில்காக்கும் 'ஒரு சிலரு'க்கு இன்னி சங்கு

:clap: :clap: :clap:

[venkkiram]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=B1Y9gD865vU

தொல்காப்பியத்தை கொடுத்துப் பாருங்க.. தெணறிடுவாறு அவரு. ஏன்! இங்கேயே கொடுத்துப் பாருங்களேன். :rotfl:

[shilpa]

in most of kamal movies terrorism is portrayed.muslims are shown as killers.take for example the movie unnai pol oruvan.now vishwaroopa.kamal should be tolerant towards all religions.or else he will get into trouble again and again.he should learn to look before he leaps.

[irir123]

at the San Jose concert by IR last Friday the 1st of March, 2013, IR gave an interesting anecdote abt the origin of the 'maasi maasam aalaana ponnu' tune for Dharma durai - am paraphrashing him here:

"namma superstar illa ? avaru paattu composingku vandhu, 'thanni karuthhurichhu' tune madhiri venumnu indha situationukku - apdeenu kettaar - naan sonnen - adhu yerkanavey potta tune - indhaanga vera tune, indha situationukku correcta irukkum - adhu thaan 'maasi maasam aalaana ponnu' tune pirandha kadhai"

so there goes the Kamal link for this news in this thread !

[Avadi to America]

I think he told this in NJ concert also. My friend was in the concert and was raving the program particularly about mottai and spb. If I had been in NY i would have gone. Indeed a costly miss. Mottai Telugu audiance konjam kalachittaru as usual.

[irir123]

Avadi to America - I am usually very composed most of the times, particularly last 10 years or so - but this was one event, I just could not control my emotions!

man, honestly, I consider myself extremely 'blessed' / fortunate to have lived my school (chennai) and college (hyderabad) years during the golden years of IR's music!

and IR gave a truely balanced concert covering both telugu and tamil songs impeccably!

if i win a lottery for a million dollars, I will personally have an IR concert in NY times square with Adele, or, Celine Dion singing 'satru munbu', 'oru naal andha oru naal', 'idhayam pogudhey' etc

[SoftSword]

at the San Jose concert by IR last Friday the 1st of March, 2013, IR gave an interesting anecdote abt the origin of the 'maasi maasam aalaana ponnu' tune for Dharma durai - am paraphrashing him here:

"namma superstar illa ? avaru paattu composingku vandhu, 'thanni karuthhurichhu' tune madhiri venumnu indha situationukku - apdeenu kettaar - naan sonnen - adhu yerkanavey potta tune - indhaanga vera tune, indha situationukku correcta irukkum - adhu thaan 'maasi maasam aalaana ponnu' tune pirandha kadhai"

so there goes the Kamal link for this news in this thread !

so eventually rajini got the better tune...

[irir123]

Softsword - yenna kusumbaa ? both were/are equally popular in terms of reach at the time of their release(s) - as simple as that - 'thanni karutthurucchu' came out in 1979 and 'maasi maasam' in 1991 !

we dont know what the late Sridhar ( asked from IR) for ilamai - and it was not for the main character in the film played by Kamal - the song comes in the background !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h97Ox17gL4g

'maasi maasam' is for the main character in the film - thats the difference

[Avadi to America]

Irrir123,
I like all the songs from Ilamai oonjaldugirathu.... most of the songs in the movie are city base tunes except this one....i truly love this song....

[Avadi to America]

Avadi to America - I am usually very composed most of the times, particularly last 10 years or so - but this was one event, I just could not control my emotions!

man, honestly, I consider myself extremely 'blessed' / fortunate to have lived my school (chennai) and college (hyderabad) years during the golden years of IR's music!

and IR gave a truely balanced concert covering both telugu and tamil songs impeccably!

if i win a lottery for a million dollars, I will personally have an IR concert in NY times square with Adele, or, Celine Dion singing 'satru munbu', 'oru naal andha oru naal', 'idhayam pogudhey' etc

I absolutely agree with you man!!!. live music can bring emotional touch.....if not ilayaraj who will.....

[SoftSword]

irr, i would call the 'maasi maasam' better as its a very soothing melody, the voice... whatta beautiful
back then we will hav to switch channels when this song is on, terming it a adults only...
i started admiring it more when 'kattippudi kattipudidaa' came which copied almost the complete rhythm part...

pardon me, i hav not heard the 'thanni karut...' one as many times... you can add a imo to my comment :)

[irir123]

softsword - IR gave a tune to the late Sridhar based on how the latter described the scene to him as a background song, featuring two rustic dancers - it would have been a much better melody, had the situation been for the main character, played by Kamal.

'maasi maasam' was/is a super melody - no doubt abt that - its one of my alltime favorites from IR - but we got to keep in mind what the director must have requested the composer for - 'enakku ippadi thaan venumnu' kettaa, appadithhaan kidaikkum.

[Avadi to America]

when Iilamai Onjaldukirathu was released in 1978, raja had two years of professional experience whereas in 1991 when Dhrma durai got released he had 15 years of experience and completed 500+ movies... perhaps he had learned more in terms of understanding people and what their requirements are.

[irir123]

IR had given great nos in terms of creativity during the 1970s itself - so this was probably something he had to give as per the directors requirement

[SoftSword]

softsword - IR gave a tune to the late Sridhar based on how the latter described the scene to him as a background song, featuring two rustic dancers - it would have been a much better melody, had the situation been for the main character, played by Kamal.

'maasi maasam' was/is a super melody - no doubt abt that - its one of my alltime favorites from IR - but we got to keep in mind what the director must have requested the composer for - 'enakku ippadi thaan venumnu' kettaa, appadithhaan kidaikkum.

irir... IR - Sridhar - music making process ellaam edhukku ulla kondu varinga... neither was i weighing those based on the period... i was talking in terms of standalone songs irrespective to what and how they were conceived... maasi maasam takes the maambazham...

[Cinemarasigan]

Watched Avvai Shanmugi yesterday night..nth time... as every one knew it was a laugh riot. Never felt boring even for a single minute... Dialogues by Crazy Mohan is superb and I was laughing for some more time even after the movie was over... Need to mention that Casting for this movie is excellent. The legends Gemini, Nagesh have added lot of value to the movie and the scenes involving these 2 were highlights of this movie. The sequence where Nages take money from Gemini is memorable.. Delhi Ganesh, Nasser & Manivannan also have done their part very well.. The "theliya vachu theliya vachu adikkara" scene is also superb...

Kamal's acting as Shanmugi is one of the best roles he had done.. This is one movie we can watch whenever we want to laugh...

[venkkiram]

Aravindan Neelakandan criticizes Kamal's view

Anbe Sivam (Love is Sivam)

http://centreright.in/2013/03/anbe-sivam-love-is-sivam/#.UUspxjeDmSo

நீண்ட கட்டுரையாக இருக்கு. இரவு படிக்கிறேன்.

கவனிக்க: இதை அடுத்து ஹேராம் படத்திற்கும் எழுதுகிறாராம். பிஆர், ஜினோ - உங்களின் பதில்களை எதிர்பார்க்கிறேன். இங்கே அல்ல.. அங்கேயே!

[Arvind Srinivasan]

^ Hmmm...Intriguing....

[LihDacRurdy]

Watched Avvai Shanmugi yesterday night..nth time... as every one knew it was a laugh
Kamal's acting as Shanmugi is one of the best roles he had done.. This is one movie we can watch whenever we want to laugh...

Yes its one of biggie and you never get this laught if u watchd it n hindi

[P_R]

Aravindan Neelakandan criticizes Kamal's view

Anbe Sivam (Love is Sivam)

http://centreright.in/2013/03/anbe-sivam-love-is-sivam/#.UUspxjeDmSo

நீண்ட கட்டுரையாக இருக்கு. இரவு படிக்கிறேன்.

கவனிக்க: இதை அடுத்து ஹேராம் படத்திற்கும் எழுதுகிறாராம். பிஆர், ஜினோ - உங்களின் பதில்களை எதிர்பார்க்கிறேன். இங்கே அல்ல.. அங்கேயே!
Thanks for the link.

I don't think I know enough about Indian Marxist viewpoints to respond - either here or there.

The crux of the article is his quote about M.N.Roy (whom he quotes as example of the Indian Marxist stance) viewing Hinduism as under-developed and Abrahamic religions as advanced.
I am not sure if AN is representing Indian Marxists appropriately. The likening of Marx to the messiah akin to Abrahamic traditions is a very critical reduction that opponents (eg. Hindutva-vadis give). They like to see Marx as a 'mere' continuation of the Abrahamic tradition - rather than a radical upstager.

DD Kosambi a famous Marxist historian (by whom I should admit I have read only one book) talks about the syncretic nature of Hinduism. While Hindutvavadis hate this, I don't think there is any suggestion that a Abrahamic messiah tradition is viewed as 'progress'. In fact I feel they're more likely to liken it to one of the several simplistic strands that got integrated into the inchoate whole of Hinduism over the centuries.

Given AN's whole criticism is anchored on countering this view - to counter it, it needs someone a wide knowledge of the Indian Marxist intellectual tradition.

That apart, there is little novel in his criticism.

btw what Hindu mendicants in Orissa is he talking about? The only one I recall is the guy taking care of Yuhi Sethu's stolen suitcases in Andhra.

Reading the film as Christian missionaries alone do good - is highly limited. But in his bid to counter he does mention things which are useful to the reader regardless of context.
Like the sadhus' role in the NCM (Nehru records in his autobiography how he feels ambivalent about Gandhi's approach). Nearly no-one mentions Swami Sahajanandha's work in Dalit welfare - so to that extent it is good.

Regarding the RSS' work in the emergency -AN repeatedly mentions this in many of his essays. It is possibly true that the organization contributes like that. But I am reluctant to give it a lot of credit coming from him, because I feel there is a surreptitious attempt to rescue RSS and its eventual agenda - which we all know.

To the extent that he says the disproportionate(?) bad-light in which Kamal portrays Hinduism is reflecting of his personal political point of view - I don't have anything to say at all, except 'ok, so?'. But attributing it the same to Marxist tradition itself and suggesting Kamal is interested in promoting Abrahamic religions is basely.

btw ange pOyi comment pOda solreengaLE naan nallA irukkuRadhu ungaLukku pudikkalaiyA? - comment section pAththeengaLA. Virat Hindus van van-a vandhu irangi irukkAnga :lol2:

[P_R]

Lastly - it is a VERY ordinary film.
My hub pravEsam was in a thread titled Anbe sivam > Mahanadhi. I came in to counter that abachaaram of a claim some 8+ years back :-)

I resent the fact that Anbe Sivam is being analyzed so much. It smacks of superficiality.

I am now beginning to think it is an ominous sign I did not read. A sign of Kamal's waning writing/filmmaking talents. Barring VirumAndi - which too is lesser than his 90s films - he has routinely made films well below his par in the last decade. Anbe Sivam was the first film where he seemed to believe he had given a very good shot and it came out to be what it was.
I don't believe something like that happened earlier.

[P_R]

I look forward to AN's post on Hey Ram.
enna solRaarnu pArppOm :-)