Racism and The Indian

[NOV]

[tscii]Yes, I am an Indian
Kamna Arora

http://www.zeenews.com/blog/38/blog132.html


“You Indians are good in sweeping and mopping,” an Australian commented on me while I was working part-time with a global fast-food joint in Brisbane. The lady’s comment left me enraged, but honestly speaking, I could not respond because the statement came as a bolt from the blue. I had been in Brisbane for just two months at that time, and hence was not prepared for such a remark on my nationality. That was just the beginning of my tryst with racism.

Recent incidents related to alleged racist bias against Indians in IPL team Kolkata Knight Riders and at an airport by Air France has forced me to pen down my encounter with racism in Australia, referred to as a ‘multi-cultural country’. Although I continue to have a number of Australian friends, I still feel the pain of being the target of racist comments during my stay in Brisbane, just because the colour of my skin was different and I hailed from India, still looked upon by many as the country full of poverty.

I was consciously reminded again and again that I am a Brown, an Indian, to downgrade me. Well, I proudly call myself an Indian, and pity those who look down on others because they have a dark skin, directly hurting their own country’s image.

“I support underdogs,” a British commented when a friend of mine asked him about the reason behind his support to the Indian cricket team. I was shocked to hear when another Indian friend told me that an Australian refused to take food from his hands because of his brown skin. Brown-skinned people, whether Indians, or Asians for that matter, are often the soft targets of goons or ‘bad elements’ in some parts of Australian cities. Recently, an Indian was robbed and beaten up in a moving train in Melbourne. And surely, there are a number of incidents that go unreported.

“How did you afford to come to Australia?” is an oft-asked question there, as for White-skinned people Indians are synonymous with poverty. “The country is producing billionaires, Sir,” used to be my reply when faced with this question. I wrote White-skinned because the term actually includes Europeans, Americans, British and Australians. I wonder how they fail to recall the poverty in their respective country. Physicians, heal thyself!

Why is it so that we Indians (most of us, especially those who haven’t travelled abroad) are crazy about foreigners and not vice-versa? Why do they not look at us with same excitement and enthusiastic smiles when we visit their countries?

One of my neighbours has trade links with a Russian. He invited the Russian lady to his daughter’s wedding, and the whole ‘desi mohalla’ almost died for getting a picture clicked with that ‘videshi mahila’. Strange!

Why do foreigners get more respect than us in our own country? While chatting with a colleague of mine the other day, I was told that a guard at a shop only reluctantly opened the door for him. However, the same guard did not only whole-heartedly welcome foreigners, but also bowed his head in respect.

I guess the almighty dollar plays a big role in our attitude towards foreigners. But are we really so poor that we are ready to sell our country’s respect to gain a few dollars? We do not need to hang our heads in shame, I believe.

Speaking off-the-cuff, I feel most of the time that we get racially abused by foreigners, because we feel that way for ourselves. The colonial attitude has failed to peter out in our mindset. For most of us Indians, a White-skinned person is always right. We feel thrilled if we get to talk to a foreigner even once in our lifetime.

My experience teaches me that the more we try to imitate the English people, the more we lose ourselves. Here, ‘we’ refers to ‘Indians’. We can wear international brands, copy the American or British accent, or for that matter, get the residency permits, but one thing can never change and that is the skin of our colour. We will always be Brown, and always Indians. I am proud to be one, are you?

[app_engine]

I've been in the U.S. last six years and my experience is totally opposite:-)

People love / crave to eat my food (regardless of their color - white / black / brown / yellow) and most regard Indians as super brilliant / sober / balanced / having strong family values etc.

Actually the Indian craving for 'fair skinned bride' or 'from same caste' is more nauseating than any adverse feeling shown by a crazy westerner, which are nowadays one-off kind of situations only.

Ofcourse, sometimes I feel like 'வௌவால்' when whites complain about blacks and vice-versa to me :-( which makes me wonder how those specific individuals talk about me in my absence. However, I dust off such situations - don't care.

Have value, follow principles, keep educating others (both thru words and actions). Then all these perceived differences will vanish, IMHO.

[NOV]

what about the curry murder in melbourne?

[app_engine]

NOV,
My knowledge on AU situation is very low :-( My post is only about the situation in MI (and in most mid-west / east parts of U.S.) during the last few years.

However it's true that perceived superiority / racism / violence has been one of the longest living crimes of humanity :-(

[irir123]

racism - it cuts both ways - IMO, Indians per se are the most racist! we have caste-based distinctions, in fact, I know relatives, who shamelessly ask about a friend's caste BG when he/she comes visiting etc etc - much worse, Indians who come to the US have this nasty habit of giving nicknames to people of different racial backgrounds in a very derogatory manner

AFAIK, I have not faced any racial abuse whatever anywhere in Europe or in the US - you be nice/polite and dignified with people, then people are gonna be the same with you as well - thats my experience

[Ramona]

http://www.guyanaundersiege.com/Literature/Gibson%20work%20is%20propaganda.htm

http://www.guyanajournal.com/gibson_rebuttal_2.html

[app_engine]

Ramona,
Why struggle to quote what's there (or not there) in the scriptures when the actual practice is there for all to see?

That way, if we take up whatever scriptures the majority of westerners "profess" to believe (The Bible), they were written in the east by "colored" people (and not in EU / AU / US) :-)

Neither there's any "color" distinction specified there but it teaches all are descendents of a single dad & mum :-) )

The problem is people have gone so far-far away from what they themselves claim as holy writings.

So, we can only look at what's being "practiced" today by each "group" and only accordingly categorize / evaluate them.

[Punnaimaran]

I too feel that Indians are the most racist people in the world. Just see the headline of the article in the link provided below.

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/face-the-nation-madam-speaker-talent-or-tokenism/94121-37-p1.html

[NOV]

RACIST ATTACK ON INDIANS IN AUSTRALIA

In Australia, many of Asian ehthnic origin ( Indians ) are subjected to insults and injuries in the recent past.
Professor Carl Belle Vadivella of Adelaide, (a white Muruga devotee, President of the Adelaide Vinayagar temple),who did his annual Thaipoosam Kavadi at Batu Caves in Malaysia for the last 15 years without a break ( wrote a book of over 500 pages on Thaipoosam Kavadi Festival ) brings out an objective analysis of the real causes and the background to the catastrophe. It is worth while pondering over.


Curry bashing: a Perspective

I am sorry to write a group email, but I am alarmed at how a particular issue has got completely out of hand, and has become the subject of some hysteria in the press, especially in India. And this is the issue of so-called "curry bashing", that is, attacks on ethnic Indians in the cities of Melbourne and Sydney.

Basically the issue is as follows. Over the past two years there have been a number of attacks on ethnic Indians, mainly in Melbourne, but also in Sydney, and to a lesser extent in Adelaide. Much has been made of this, and I have read comments about the "white trash" and "racist Australia". The truth is more complex than this.

When I was Hindu chaplain at Flinders University, I became aware that there were a number of attacks on Indian students in the northern suburbs of Adelaide. When I enquired with the police I found out that the attacks were mainly mounted by Aboriginal gangs, and Indians were targeted because they were easily identifiable and because it was believed that they were wealthy. Normally they also carried mobile phones and laptops, which were items which could easily be converted into cash. (However, these gangs were also targeting isolated rural homesteads and other individuals; it wasn't just Indians).

With the recent round of attacks in Melbourne, the Victorian police have refused to release details of the identity of the attackers. This has made many people think that it is white supremacist groups involved. However, I have made my own enquiries, and I have found that while some of the attackers are "white", the majority are ethnic gangs, mainly of second generation immigrants.The police apparently do not wish to identify the groups (the same groups have created similar trouble in Sydney, and are just as likely to target white Australians - who they call "skips" (after the TV series, "Skippy, the Bush Kangaroo").

Why are Indians targetted? It seems because many are believed to be rich, and many display items such as mobile phones ands laptops which can be quickly converted to cash on the open market. Moreover Indian students are hardworking and often work long hours in jobs which require them to travel late at night or work in isolated locations or high risk jobs (petrol stations, hospitals, all night supermarkets, etc)

Moreover, many students who come to this country have no idea how violent Australian society is. I have repeatedly told new students that they must exercize care at night, especially in the more lawless suburbs - the northern suburbs of Adelaide, the western suburbs of Melbourne and Sydney. Many students imagine that because Australian is a "European" country, it is safe and that we are all law abiding. Our crime rates in some parts of Australia are a national disgrace. Most of the violent robberies and bashings in Australia (up to 80 per cent) are committed by drug addicts, and the most vulnerable and frequently assaulted targets are not ethnic Indians but elderly middle class Australians of all backgrounds. I have impressed this on all Indian students of my acquaintance - to be careful of their personal safety, especially at night.

There is racism in Australia, as there is in every country round the world. White supremacist groups do exist, as they do in North America and in Europe, but they have little impact upon public policy, and they tend not to be openly violent. (And interestingly their leadership tends to be British or Irish immigrants) But this is a country where people of any ethnicity can make a successful career, and where Indian immigrants often occupy upper level positions in the professions and business. (A huge percentage of postgraduate students are of Asian background and our IT sector would collapse without Indians.) In Adelaide our most recent mayors have included an ethnic Chinese, an Arab, a Jew and now an Anglo-Celt. The Lieutenant Governor of this state arrived as a refugee by boat from Vietnam. My son-in-law's parents fled China during the Cultural Revolution, and all have made successful careers in Australia. To label Australia as a "Country of Racists" is not only stupid and offensive - it is plain wrong.

Let me quote something that was stated during a recent election campaign. "I want you to go out and find places where Satan has his strongholds: mosques, Hindu temples, Buddhist temples, bottleshops, and Casinos, and destroy these places. We want a Christian Australia." Guess who said this? Pastor Danny Nelliah, a Tamil migrant from Sri Lanka, a leader of the Pentecostalist group Catch the Fire Ministry, and a Senate candidate for the Pentecostalist front Family First Party. And this is the most likely area where Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims, Buddhist and Jews have to fear organized hatred. Pauline Hanson got much of her support from fundamentalist Christians, who are just as likely to be immigrants as native born Australians. (The leader of the violent National Front white supremacist group in Perth had an Indonesian mother, and many of the Family First membership are ethnic Chinese and Koreans.)

In 1983, after I had taken my third kavadi in Malaysia, I received a letter from a Christian group in Perth.This group accused me of betraying my Christian upbringing and told me that I would go to hell. I guess, I was stupid; I responded, I was already in hell; I was working in Canberra. The letters continued, until I finally got one which was openly threatening - it stated that the writers knew where I worked, they knew were my wife worked, they knew where my children went to school, and they had friends who would deal with me. When I took this letter to the Canberra police, they police traced the letter down to an Assemblies of God church in Fremantle (Perth). The pastor of this church was from the subcontinent.

The hysteria which has broken out in the Indian press is not helpful. Most Australians are horrified by the idea of racist attacks, (or attacks which might be interpreted as racist), and Kevin Rudd, our Prime Minister, is the first leader we have had who speaks Asian languages. Burning effigies of Rudd is just stupid. (We had the same hysterical reaction after Australia won a controversial cricket test in Sydney in January 2008; I wonder why these rent-a-crowd people are not protesting against real and systemic and often violent injustices against Indians in places such as Kenya, Fiji, Burma, etc. And Indians in Australia do not die in police custody) Of course, Australians are not immune from this hysteria. We had the same thing in this country when convicted drug pusher Schapelle Corby was jailed by a Bali court, and when drug dealers Chambers and Barlow were executed in Kuala Lumpur.

In 2007 my wife, Wendy, was mugged by a gang just off Petaling Street in Kuala Lumpur. This was in broad daylight. Given that she had just recovered from an illness, it was a miracle she was not injured. Later a senior Malaysian policeman told us that "white" visitors were the special target of these gangs, particularly those who appeared middle aged or older. Was this racism? No: it was the fact that "white" tourists are seen as soft targets. Does this make me anti-Chinese, or will I be immature enough to go out and burn Malaysian flags or effigies of the Malaysian PM? of course not. Most Malaysians who heard of this incident were horrified, and I know most Malaysians - whether Malay, Chinese or Indian, to be kind, generous and welcoming. As are most Australians. And of course the main victims of Chinese gangs in Malaysia are...other Chinese.

Just one final issue. Most Indians who study in Australia come with the express purpose of getting Permanent Residence. I note that all of those interviewed on TV after last weeks demonstration stated that they still intended to do so. If this country was as vicious and unpleasant and as racist as the Indian press seems to imply, one would have imagined that Indian students would leave as soon as possible. Many Indians who have come to this country have come from regimes where they have experienced real injustice and often appalling violence - countries like Sri Lanka, Fiji and apartheid era South Africa. I have worked with these people, and I am proud to call such people my friends. Racism, bigotry and intolerance must be opposed wherever they appear. These qualities appear in every country around the world - Australia is no exception. But while the attacks on Indians in Australia may contain a racist element, from the information passed to me most of them are not racist attacks. I pass this on in a hope that the hysteria which has surrounded this issue can be put to one side or at least viewed in some sort of perspective. In general Indians in Australia are as safe as any other Australian.

Aum Shanti,

Carl Vadivella Belle

[Hulkster]

I had never had such problems with racism in Singapore. In fact we have racist jokes for almost every race but we do it in a banter style that it actually bonds us rather than cause riots.

Racism comes due to two things. Character and Improper education on understanding different individuals. Americans used to be like that and they still are abit but most of them tend to accept the difference due to their exposure to individualism and opinions and also maybe becos they are a rojak(those who understand malay should know what i mean.)

Why shall we not propose for a one human race. Solves alot of problems and genetically we have one common ancestor. After all colour and complexion are not powerful enough to determine a race physically as environment plays a strong part in this.

[app_engine]

The article that NOV posted seems to give some balanced information (as opposed to what Indian media highlights).

For e.g. look at this :
http://www.dinamalar.com/worldnewsdetail.asp?news_id=3095

This talks about a new car while parallel reports talk about a $2500 car (which has to be an used one that students typically buy). Again, this may not necessarily target the victim because of his country of origin but more of a drug-induced crime. Often car thieves target specific models that are "easy-prey" (without much security features) and typically older models suffer more than brand new ones. Most students can only afford very old cars and this could possibly be such a case. The media that's hungering for something big (as the elections are just over and big scandals are at least a year away) may be targeting such things to make a huge issue out of "routine crimes".

It also appears that the Indian / Indian student population in these cities is quite high (and thus more numbers affected by the crime-ridden cities). Statistics like - no. of crimes against Indians in general v/s Indian students, crimes against all groups of people v/s crimes against Indians alone etc need to be looked at before one conclusively tells these are handiwork of racist organizations.

In any case, as long as the gov's official stand is not supporting such criminals, there's still hope that this should go away from front pages in course of time.

[Badri]

The situation is really mysterious to say the least! Indians who've lived here 20 years are surprised! Without being an "ingratiating underdog" I have to admit the mistakes lie on both sides.

You can spot an Indian student in Melbourne from a mile away! I am sorry, but that is the truth!

Unshaved, illkempt, glaze-eyed. Talking loudly on trams and trains in their mother tongue.

Is any of it a crime? Not at all! They are probably unshaved, ill kempt and glazed because of working the whole night! They attend University during the day, then work as janitors or assistant chefs or a call centre shift or driving cabs late into the night, tiredly trudging back home for a few hours respite. What is known in Aussie slang as a typical "battler"

But while that is the truth, the perception is so diffferent. And Indians do not help their own cause. I stepped into a cab driven by an Indian student from Punjab the other day. God, I had to open the windows to escape the stink in the car! I don't know if it was the individual or the cab, and I don't care to hazard a guess.

An Indian myself, I'd rather get into a cab driven by a non-Indian, because for the money I am paying, at least I can get a comfortable ride!

There are huge cultural differences in the mix too! Aussies are known for their irreverent humour. Half the time, they would make fun of themlseves just as easily as they would make fun of you. Political correctness is often observed in the breach! Watch the Chasers War on Everything on ABC and you get some understanding of how the Aussie mind works. Now, you put a sensitive Indian into the mix, a Indian student who is already feeling lost in a different country, hampered by his poor command over English, acutely conscious of his financial position - you are bound to get a percieved racist insult or threat. I am not saying there is no racism at all, there is plenty here.

After all, Australia once had an infamous "White Australia Policy" which restricted non-White immigration into the country. And you have political figures (albeit failed) such as Pauline Hanson who once actually made it to the Parliament simply on the platform of promoting a white Australia!

In the end, if India flexes her financial muscle (the only muscle she has) Australia has to listen! The Australian Educational Industry is the country's 3rd largest export to the tune of A$15 billion! And Indian students pay a lot into those coffers. If nothing else, India's threat to impose sanctions on Australia would improve the situation.

[MazhaiKuruvi]

app_engine, irir123, Badri, very nicely said! Is the type of data suggested app_engine available?

Badri, I like your sig. Who said it?

Hulkster, I would add insecurity to the mix. IMHO, the more insecure and unfulfilled a section of the population is, the more prejudiced they are. Racism and ego give such folks a kind of self-worth along the lines of ...ok, I am good for nothing, but my ancestors were great people, so I too am great.

Look at all those first generation Indians in the US - those who achieve, don't pereceive racism, those who don't, blame their lack of success on perceived racism.

Economics is the other factor that drives racism. I believe, even Indian casteism probably morphed into its ugliest shape during some period of lack, when those who could, manipulated the system to suit their best economic interests.

[Badri]

Mazhai kuruvi, I suppose I have to attribute that quote to myself!!! Why should we always hijack someone else's quotes? Why not create our own?

[rajraj]

Mazhai kuruvi, I suppose I have to attribute that quote to myself!!! Why should we always hijack someone else's quotes? Why not create our own?

Early signs of a great man ? :)

[raagadevan]

Racist Australians? No, Indians students are blamed

Indian students in Australia are to be blamed for getting attacked - this seems to be the belief of many Indians prospering in Australia. In a flurry of e-mails from Down Under, it is made out that the Indian students invite these vicious attacks upon themselves.

The Australia-Indian community leaders and their religious/social welfare organisations have hardly issued any strong statements against these racist attacks.

During the recent Melbourne protest, hardly any older Australian-Indians turned up to show their solidarity with the Indian students even as the students cried themselves hoarse demanding justice. In fact, some white Australians were seen carrying placards to support them. Reports in the Indian media stated that these well-settled Australian-Indians do not want these events to affect their cushy life or tarnish their relations with whites.

These racial attacks have continued for the last two or three years with a growing number of them now directed at Indian students whose numbers have swelled to about 97,000.

Did the local Indians take any individual or community action to prevent these ugly attacks? On the contrary, when the recent spate of brutal assaults by Australian hooligans hit the headlines, they were quick to point out the reasons emanating from the students.

According to e-mails from Australia, Indian students allegedly do not know English, they display their expensive gadgets like mobiles, laptops and iPods; play loud music, talk loudly in their native tongues, live up to 15 in rooms rented for four persons, make their accommodation filthy, come out to their compounds in their underwear to urinate in the open and display innumerable other uncouth habits loathed by Australians. No wonder they are attacked, say the e-mails.

Many students are frustrated when they find that their colleges are run by Australian-Indian 'crooks'. "When they go to their class, they find that all the students are from India, and the teacher teaches them in Hindi/Punjabi. They realise that they could have received a better education at a fraction of the cost and without the problems and pains (in India). Many of our people have opened educational institutions as on-line licensing was so easy here. These people cheated the system by supplying false information. Now many of such colleges face closure, further putting strain on students who have paid so much money to study there," said one such e-mail.

If the well-settled Australian-Indians have known all these problems for the last few years, what have they done to alleviate the situation? Did they launch any orientation courses in their places of worship to 'welcome' the new Indian students every year and explain to them the norms of the Australian way of life? Did they approach their elected representatives to press for starting these orientation courses in India or Australia? Or, urge them to enforce additional measures at the Australian high commission in India, like an oral English test, before granting them a student visa? Did they seek the closing down of these sub-standard 'teaching shops' run by unscrupulous Australian-Indians as they attract unsuspecting students through their recruiting agents in India?

"Many students have committed suicide due to pressure from India and their inability to study without tuition as they fail to follow classroom lectures," says an Indian professional in an e-mail. "They cannot get more funds from India; on the contrary, every relative from India phones them asking: 'When will you get a job and remit money to repay your loan?' Students have been committing suicides here and the Indian high commission would not even listen to anything nor acknowledge that there was a problem. Local Indians and students have been arranging for the dead bodies to be sent to India."

Then the Indian media is to be blamed for highlighting these attacks and giving an unbalanced picture - never mind the fact that most print media have published articles by Indian university professors in Australia or established leaders on this situation and TV channels aired reports by local and 'citizen' journalists. They are pained at the reaction from India: film legend Amitabh Bachchan declining an honorary degree from an Australian university; Indian tourists cancelling their Aussie holidays in large numbers; Indian film producers boycotting film shootings; Indian student numbers declining this year; and perhaps, bilateral trade going down as India is the seventh biggest trade partner of Australia.

The established Australian-Indians are unwilling to accept the violent attacks by the Aussie lumpens who demand cigarettes, money and their gadgets and then slash them with knives or pierce their skulls with screwdrivers. They would not comment until the courts decide them. How many convictions have been reported in the last few years? They don't know. It's to do with their clothes smelling of curry, so they get 'curry-bashing', the local Indians say.

From: manoramaonline.com (Tuesday,9 June 2009 12:45 hrs IST)

[app_engine]

http://dailythanthi.com/article.asp?NewsID=493209&disdate=6/10/2009

This report states there're retaliations as well!

http://dailythanthi.com/article.asp?NewsID=493212&disdate=6/10/2009

States police admission of "some" attacks being racist.

At least the official policy support / police protection etc are not there for racists.

[jaiganes]

aiyyo thiruppi adikkaradhu LTTE style aache.
Nalla pal odaya odaya vangikaradhu dhaan ovvoru indhianin gandhiya kadamai!!!
:-) :-)
That joke apart, the article NOV posted is good enough to convince me that the attacks are not racist, we are racists and perceive any attack on us to be an attack on our race - idhu vote bank politicsum jaadhi sangangalum namakku katru koduththa paadam.

[Ramona]

"According to e-mails from Australia, Indian students allegedly do not know English, they display their expensive gadgets like mobiles, laptops and iPods; play loud music, talk loudly in their native tongues, live up to 15 in rooms rented for four persons, make their accommodation filthy, come out to their compounds in their underwear to urinate in the open and display innumerable other uncouth habits loathed by Australians. No wonder they are attacked, say the e-mails. "

Lord!

[Badri]

"According to e-mails from Australia, Indian students allegedly do not know English, they display their expensive gadgets like mobiles, laptops and iPods; play loud music, talk loudly in their native tongues, live up to 15 in rooms rented for four persons, make their accommodation filthy, come out to their compounds in their underwear to urinate in the open and display innumerable other uncouth habits loathed by Australians. No wonder they are attacked, say the e-mails. "

Lord!

Well, as an Indian living in Australia, I can vouchsafe for most of the comments above, though there are definite exaggerations!

a) They do know English, but just passably, with a heavy accent, especially a number of students who come from Punjab & Haryana

b) Yes most of them have mobiles and ipods, but then who doesnt?

c) Yes, they do play loud music, but then so do many others

d) They defintely do talk very loudly in their native tongue, and laugh in groups. Those who dont know the language have no way of knowing that they are not being laughed at

e) I don't know about 15 to a 4 BR house, but they most certainly violate the rental laws around how many people are allowed to live in a house

f) Yes, they exhibit a typical Indian bachelor attitude to maintaining a house; while bachelors worldwide share a certain basic reluctance to clean up, Indian student homes are often smelly and generally more poorly maintained than average

g) That is atrocious! I have never heard of any Indian coming out in their underwear to urinate in the open! For starters, Melbourne is too cold most of the time to step our in your undies!

Now, most of these are generalisations, and there are any number of decent Indians, students and otherwise, who have done a wonderful job of assimilating with the Australian culture, such as it is!

But unfortunatley, as always, it is the odd ones out that capture everyone's attention!

[Badri]

Mazhai kuruvi, I suppose I have to attribute that quote to myself!!! Why should we always hijack someone else's quotes? Why not create our own?

Early signs of a great man ? :)

Raj, you flatter me unduly! :oops:

[irir123]

in my experience of living in the US since 2006, and that too in a university area, my observations:

1. most Indian students who come here, have a certain weird perception of America and the Americans - and that perception is not exactly very positive

2. quite a few of them have this gungho attitude of coming from a 'superior' culture - something which itself is undefinable and unquantifiable - which in most cases pertain to elements such as going to temples, family-values etc etc

3. funnly and disgustingly enough, a majority of the students I have seen, who boast of their cultural superiority are the ones, who indulge in booze plus visiting topless strip bars! some display of the great Indian culture and heritage!

4.they do keep their homes completely ugly, untidy with the perpetual smell of (cigarrette) smoke and booze !

4.much worser, pass derogatory comments on caucasians ( especially, white women) and unprintable comments on afro-americans and mexicans - Indians come to the US in search of better oppurtunities (just like other immigrants) - so where does the superiority issue arise here at all ??

5.most disgustingly, few of us who come here learn/ understand core issues such as discipline, punctuality, team work and I have often seen non-resident Indians behave rudely in airports in India, complaining about anything and everything - true things are far from perfect in India, but do they have to shamelessly demonstrate their uncouthness, like jumping lines/queues which they wud not do if they were elsewhere ?

I dont know how Indian students are behaving in Australia, but given the above, I would not be surprised if the overall behavior is no different

[app_engine]

The question is whether the Indian studens are attacked "because" they display any of the irritable qualities mentioned above or simply because of their country of origin / skin color.

One of the ways to know is to get testimonies from attackers, if they are caught / interrogated and the details published truthfully. Which may never happen...

[Nerd]

I was once a student in the USA and I strongly condemn IRIR's points. There are a few miscreants but the Indian students are generally well-behaved when compared to the American counterparts.

1. What's wrong if I dont have a good opinion about the Americans? At least I don't tell that to Americans like how they did to me.

2. Irrelevant

3.What's wrong if I go drink in bars and pubs which are meant for that purpose?! And strip bars, what's wrong, seriously?! We don't strip in the publc and cause nuisance to the public by doing drugs/booze in the open like how a few Afr-Americans do.

4. Only about 2% of the students I know used to smoke inside their apartments. I think that's much better than smoking in the public.

4. The derogatory comments are amongst us. We don't abuse Americans in their face and I ve been called a "poor student from a third world nation" on more than one occasion in the metro buses and other places. Third world country is a very offensive term.

5.Agree.

[Nerd]

Agree that they are generally loud and don't know how to behave in public trains and buses but they are a hundred times better than afr-Americans and Hispanics as far as Texas is concerned.

[MrIndia]

modhalla Karnataka,mumbai-la irrukira prachanaiya theeka sollunga.. apuram we can expect same treatment all over the world.

veeta suththama vachika theriyila .. theruva clean panna complaint koduthaana suppaandi.

[raagadevan]

Agree that they are generally loud and don't know how to behave in public trains and buses but they are a hundred times better than afr-Americans and Hispanics as far as Texas is concerned.

:omg: :huh:

[m_23_bayarea]

modhalla Karnataka,mumbai-la irrukira prachanaiya theeka sollunga.. apuram we can expect same treatment all over the world.

veeta suththama vachika theriyila .. theruva clean panna complaint koduthaana suppaandi.

Right on! It's so funny when our folks (I mean, Indians in this context) group together when some other country men attack or defame us! But within our own country, when one guy goes to another state or speaks another language, what kind of treatment does he get? Whether it's north or south or east or west india! :roll:

Is this what they call Unity in Diversity? That you can fight and kill amongst one another within India, but when you go out - fight against the common enemy? :oops:

[Nerd]

Agree that they are generally loud and don't know how to behave in public trains and buses but they are a hundred times better than afr-Americans and Hispanics as far as Texas is concerned.

:omg: :huh:
eh???? I was just talking about the general behavior. Do you see Indians drinking/doing drugs in public? Do you see Indians wearing their trousers below their butts? Do you see Indians carrying knives/guns threaening others for money?Have you been on public buses with those people sitting right next to you?

Indians usually are the soft targets for stealing money/cars at gunpoint etc. Even the Chinese have their own mafias in different parts of the USA.

Indians are the most racist but certainly not outside India.

[Nerd]

And RD you forward an email which claims the Indian students walk half naked in public and urinate anywhere and everywhere ain't it! Ridiculous!!!!!!

[m_23_bayarea]

eh???? I was just talking about the general behavior. Do you see Indians drinking/doing drugs in public? Do you see Indians wearing their trousers below their butts? Do you see Indians carrying knives/guns threaening others for money?Have you been on public buses with those people sitting right next to you?

Indians usually are the soft targets for stealing money/cars at gunpoint etc. Even the Chinese have their own mafias in different parts of the USA.

Indians are the most racist but certainly not outside India.

I'm not a fan of stereotyping a community - whether it has a positive or negative connotation! There are certain elements in both Irir and your posts that I agree with, while not everything is so black or white in either of your explanations!

Yes, there are some Indians who do all kinds of crazy things like Irir has listed. But not everybody or not even majority of Indians who are like that! And yes, blacks, hispanics, and even asians have gangs and behave a certain way as Nerd pointed out, and Indians are usually their soft targets as we obviously dont have much voice or influence here yet!

The only difference is, these ethnicities have been in the US much much longer than us, and the society is kind of immune to their behaviours. Where as the Indian community is really new to the US culture, and hence our black dots look more prominent on the white boards!

[Nerd]

I was just comparing us and the other races in the USA relatively. What warrants a racial attack on us?
1. We took all their jobs - WHAT? Go ask the president and whoever framed the foreign policy
2. We are loud and uncouth - I have talked about this in my other posts. We are much better in this aspect, relatively. Just because we don't really belong here, it gives them a license. Interestingly, nobody really *belongs* to the USA. We are a little late, that's it!

[m_23_bayarea]

I was just comparing us and the other races in the USA relatively. What warrants a racial attack on us?
1. We took all their jobs - WHAT? Go ask the president and whoever framed the foreign policy
2. We are loud and uncouth - I have talked about this in my other posts. We are much better in this aspect, relatively. Just because we don't really belong here, it gives them a license. Interestingly, nobody really *belongs* to the USA. We are a little late, that's it!

I agree! In fact, when I see some H1B and Green Card forums, it just amazes me how the locals here could be so "hidingly" racist with false ids and anonymity, while I bet the same folks would act as welcoming to other cultures as possible in person, just to fit in! I've seen comments like "H1Bs take away all the American jobs", "H1Bs work for lower wages", etc. etc. - DUHH!!! Ignorance is bliss or what! :lol:

Even the Administration on one hand tries to project America as being an equal opportunity nation and looks as if they invite and welcome ppl with skills to come and work, and immigrate here! But if you have checked their categories of Green Card processing, and the kind of delays it takes for certain countries (obviously including ours), it's racism or discrimination to the core, and far from equal opportunity or appreciation of talents!

About the whole loud and uncouth thing - again, not being a fan of stereotyping, I would say it's a personality thing, and has nothing to do with Indians or Antarticans or whatever! :lol:

[ajithfederer]

Bay

Isnt it a blatant fact that Indians are the biggest abusers of H1b program??. What we sow we reap. Infact all the new rules passed by USCIS were done after they had seen enough abuse of the system.

[m_23_bayarea]

Bay

Isnt it a blatant fact that Indians are the biggest abusers of H1b program??. What we sow we reap..

True! It's some consulting firms and software vendors head-quartered in India that have done a lot of abuse to the visa! But still, there are genuine candidates that are affected so much by the system in spite of working for years together and unable to get their GCs though! I mean, even in big corporations just because of the caps they have for each category! :oops:

But these are not the reasons why the locals here abuse the system though! Their reasoning is too blind to go through the details, and just come to conclusions and judge too easily. H1B thing is just one example! How about people demanding the administration to build a high-security wall in the border of US - Mexico? The most self-centered logic that you can possibly imagine! Me, my country, and all the resources are only for me! Everybody else, get the heq out of here! Why, cos I was born here, and you guys were not... Almost like God speaking to mankind! :roll:

[ajithfederer]

Since we are in agreement with the H1b issue let me jump to the border issue.

What do you expect them to do bay?. As long as you/I are not a PR/Citizen here they have(Here I mean the americans and the citizens of this country) every right and I don't see any wrong on them asking them to build a high security wall in the Mexican border. When they have so many issues like recession, loss of jobs and other 1004 issues why would they want to add the numbers to it. You tell me :huh:??. We have to play by thier rules it is THIER COUNTRY.

Avvalavu yen Mahrashtra la MNS head raj thackeray avan oorula(Bombay) North Indians vandhu exam ezhudhinadhukkae aalai vittu adikuraan. Ingae andha nilamai illama oru equal competitionkkaavadhu oru vali irukkaenu sandhosha padunga :).

[ajithfederer]

And I have to say I agree with most of the comments made by irir

[m_23_bayarea]

What do you expect them to do bay?. As long as you/I are not a PR/Citizen here they have(Here I mean the americans and the citizens of this country) every right and I don't see any wrong on them asking them to build a high security wall in the Mexican border. When they have so many issues like recession, loss of jobs and other 1004 issues why would they want to add the numbers to it. You tell me :huh:??. We have to play by thier rules it is THIER COUNTRY.


From a legalistic view, it makes sense! Only citizens have rights to their country, and everybody else is a foreigner and need to earn it! But from a humanitarian view, and looking at the toil that the Mexicans go through in this country, they don't have a way to earn it like we do! But they are still hard workers and would do anything to work hard and support themselves and their families. The "American Dream" applies to everybody, not just the "chosen" ones.

If everybody had the same opportunities, it would have been better! But the world is far from perfect, so that's an unrealistic expectation. My only hope is that the locals here would at least acknowledge the hard work and the contributions of those people, even if they dont welcome them or give them a legal status. This will be far better than constantly stereotyping and treating them as if they're dogs (well at least in attitude, if not in practice).

[Nerd]

Feddy has gone off on a tangent. We WERE the biggest abusers, not any more - thanks to USCIS's new policies. H-1b transfers and extensions are not as easy as it used to be. But anyway we were just holding the *visas* not the jobs right! And if they think 65000 is too big a number they can always reduce the number but they simply can't survive. It's not as if we all came all the way from India to snatch jobs from the Americans. We are here because we were invited :P

[Nerd]

Humanitarian POV? What's the need? If they dare to send the Indians/Chinese or even the Mexicans (who they need to build freeways and buildings and to take care of their children) out of the country how would they run a government?

[ajithfederer]

Nerd,

I didn't go off in a Tangent. Since bay was talking about H1/GC I had to come in. And I don't buy the argument and I still stand by it. We Indians are still the biggest abusers of h1b visas. Why did USCIS come with those policies in the first place. Did you even come to know about the h1 racket busted in NJ this february which involved 11 Indians. App_engine had posted a news link on the same here. Bottom line is we are the biggest abusers of the h1b system.

[m_23_bayarea]

Humanitarian POV? What's the need? If they dare to send the Indians/Chinese or even the Mexicans (who they need to build freeways and buildings and to take care of their children) out of the country how would they run a government?

Can't agree with you more! And you're spot on, it's 65,000 visas only a year, but what's the population of the US? And are we speaking just 65,000 jobs? :lol:

Even if we go ethnicity by ethnicity, what happens to the world of IT and Engineering without Indians/Chinese? And what abt all the labor jobs if not for the Mexicans? Even the biggest companies hire only Mexicans for their janitorial and other labor work? Why not Caucasians? Oh yeah, they don't apply for those jobs! :roll:

[m_23_bayarea]

Nerd,

I didn't go off in a Tangent. Since bay was talking about H1/GC I had to come in. And I don't buy the argument and I still stand by it. We Indians are still the biggest abusers of h1b visas. Why did USCIS come with those policies in the first place. Did you even come to know about the h1 racket busted in NJ this february which involved 11 Indians. App_engine had posted a news link on the same here. Bottom line is we are the biggest abusers of the h1b system.

Well, I brought the H1B issue in this thread (supposedly racism) to mention the attitude of the locals here, and how it's driven by racism more than knowing the facts! The H1B abuse by Indian companies needs another thread. And I was a victim of one such company myself... :twisted: :oops: :cry:

[Nerd]

Feddy, I am fully aware of all the issues that led USCIS to implement the new laws. But how does that warrant the other races to claim that we are taking away all their jobs? We cant take up more than 65000a year, can we?! jobless people were being supported by that particular consultancy (among other reasons) and they were rightly busted.

[ajithfederer]

Just to get an opinion from both of you nerd/bay

The h1b quota this year is still open. What these sudden drop of numbers signify?. Where is the problem?. 2008 it(H1b visas) finished in a day, 2007 in a week and in 2006 it was 3-4 weeks?.

[ajithfederer]

Ok i understand what you mean, We are not taking away everything but we are doing the biggest damage which is more evident and it hence leads to such a profiling.


Feddy, I am fully aware of all the issues that led USCIS to implement the new laws. But how does that warrant the other races to claim that we are taking away all their jobs? We cant take up more than 65000a year, can we?! jobless people were being supported by that particular consultancy (among other reasons) and they were rightly busted.

[m_23_bayarea]

Just to get an opinion of you both nerd/bay

The h1b quota this year is still open. What these sudden drop of numbers signify?. Where is the problem?. 2008 it(H1b visas) finished in a day, 2007 in a week and in 2006 it was 3-4 weeks?.

Cos consulting firms are not applying for new or transfer of H1s unless the candidate already has a client project, or if the consulting firm has projects in house. This is the first time this is happening since the laws were changed and some companies got busted! :P

Previously, any new graduate can get a visa through these companies, and will have to fake their resumes when looking for projects! Not anymore... :roll:

[m_23_bayarea]

Ok i understand what you mean, We are not taking away everything but we are doing the biggest damage which is more evident and it hence leads to such a profiling.


Feddy, I am fully aware of all the issues that led USCIS to implement the new laws. But how does that warrant the other races to claim that we are taking away all their jobs? We cant take up more than 65000a year, can we?! jobless people were being supported by that particular consultancy (among other reasons) and they were rightly busted.

How would you explain the reason for Green Card caps in the form of quotas for countries? They split the total number of Green Cards per year equally among all countries. Even if say Madagascar sends only 1 candidate a year while India/China send 1000 engineers, all Madagascar, India, and China have the equal number of GCs per year, and hence the backlog!

Shouldn't they appreciate talents/skills more than nationality? Where is equal opportunity here? And what is the reason behind this? :oops:

[Nerd]

Added to that - recession !

[ajithfederer]

I don't know anything about GC processing bay and frankly I have given up everything regarding to that. All i can do is wish good luck for both you and Nerd. :P.


Ok i understand what you mean, We are not taking away everything but we are doing the biggest damage which is more evident and it hence leads to such a profiling.


Feddy, I am fully aware of all the issues that led USCIS to implement the new laws. But how does that warrant the other races to claim that we are taking away all their jobs? We cant take up more than 65000a year, can we?! jobless people were being supported by that particular consultancy (among other reasons) and they were rightly busted.

How would you explain the reason for Green Card caps in the form of quotas for countries? They split the total number of Green Cards per year equally among all countries. Even if say Madagascar sends only 1 candidate a year while India/China send 1000 engineers, all Madagascar, India, and China have the equal number of GCs per year, and hence the backlog!

Shouldn't they appreciate talents/skills more than nationality? Where is equal opportunity here? And what is the reason behind this? :oops:

[m_23_bayarea]

You know, I have not come across to many foreigners as long as I was in India! But I'm curious to know how we (Indians) treat foreigners in our land... Anybody with knowledge or experience dealing with foreigners in India can please share if it's ok! :)

[Nerd]

Two kinds bay: (Based on my experiences)

1. Who milks them for a few extra bucks.. "I will get you the best liquor" or "This costs Rs.1000 (original price < 100). Some foreigners actually think these Indians would do anything for a few bucks

2. Who is completely awestruck - wanting pictures with them to show those to his friends later. May not happen in Chennai :lol:

And we'll have white-skin fixation and a black tourist won't get as much attention :lol:

[m_23_bayarea]

:rotfl:

Oh Gosh Nerd, you have covered some big issues in a couple of examples right there! You know what I mean?

I took one of my American friends last time to Spencer's. He wanted to buy some stuff (suitcases, Indian sweets, and what not). Every single vendor had pretty much the same kind of bargaining strategy. My friend who had been working for a couple of months prior to that had kind of gotten used to this, and he wasn't too ignorant either!

So the whole conversation was just numbers: 500-400-300-200-100 - Ok fine! With numbers alternating between the vendors and my friend. What an amazing bargain! I couldn't help but keep on laughing the whole time... :lol:

[m_23_bayarea]

It's so interesting if we laugh at vendors. When we go to "5-star hotels", it's pretty much the same. I was treated like a king just cos I had two Caucasian friends. I'm wondering how that Hotel Mgr would treat me if I go there by myself... :oops:

[app_engine]

I saw in the news that the 88 year old who came with a gun and shot at the holocaust museum at DC is a "white supremacist" :-(

இப்படியும் சிலதுகள் இன்னும் இருக்கு :-(

[app_engine]

Attacks also on lankans in AU :

http://dailythanthi.com/article.asp?NewsID=493595&disdate=6/12/2009

[sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar]

You know, I have not come across to many foreigners as long as I was in India! But I'm curious to know how we (Indians) treat foreigners in our land... Anybody with knowledge or experience dealing with foreigners in India can please share if it's ok! :)
an ad is running in all channels, aamir is preaching indians to respect foreign tourists.

btw, i dont think we indians mistreat foreighers becos, mostly they are white ( :( ) and they will pour in money. atleast in tourist towns like tiruvannamalai, pondy, ect i see some ppl staying permanently or for lont time ( few yrs) i know one white girl working in my dad's friend;s textile shop near TVM temple.

pondy - u can see many foreigners riding bicycles on roads. they use that for public transports.

only in metros(read mumbai) few are raped and killed :(

[app_engine]

அண்மைக்காலமாக அவுஸ்த்திரேலிய நகரங்களான சிட்னி மற்றும் மெல்பேணில் "இந்திய மாணவர்களுக்கெதிரான தாக்குதல்கள்" என்ற செய்தியை பலரும் கேட்டிருப்போம். ஆனால் இந்திய தேசியம் என்ற வட்டத்திற்குள் இருந்து இந்தப் பிரச்சனையை அணுகுவதால்த்தான் இவ்வாறான சம்பவங்கள் இந்தியர்களை மட்டுமே குறிவைத்து நடப்பதுபோன்ற பிரமையை ஏற்படுத்தி விடுகிறது. உண்மையிலேயே இவ்வாறான சம்பவங்கள் எந்தப் பிண்ணணியில் நடக்கின்றன என்று ஆராய்வது மிகவும் அவசியமானதாகும்.

நான் கடந்த 6, 7 ஆண்டுகளாக சிட்னியில் வசித்து வருகிறேன். சிட்னியில் நான் வசிக்கும் வெஸ்ட்மீட் மற்றும் கரீஸ்பாக் போன்ற பகுதிகள் 80 வீதமான இந்தியரைக் கொண்டவை. மேலும் இன்றுவரை, இந்தியாவிலிருந்து வந்து குடியேறும் அனைத்து இந்தியர்களுமே இந்த இரு பகுதிகளையும் குறிவைத்தே வருகின்றனர். முன்னர், பல்லினத்தவரையும் கொண்ட நகர்களாகக் காட்சியளித்த இந்த இரு பகுதிகளும் இன்று கிட்டத்தட்ட முழு இந்திய குடியேற்றங்களாக மாறி வருகின்றன. இப்பகுதியில் முன்னர் குடியிருந்த வெள்ளையர், சீனர், இத்தாலி நாட்டுக்காரர், இலங்கையின் தமிழீழப் பகுதிகளைச் சேர்ந்த தமிழர் போன்றவர்கள் சிறிது சிறிதாக இப்பகுதிகளை விட்டு வெளியேறுவதைக் காணக்கூடியதாக உள்ளது. அவ்வாறான பிண்ணனியிலேயே இந்தத் தாக்குதல்கள் பற்றி நாம் ஆராய வேண்டும்.

முதலாவதாக, இன்றைய பொருளாதார தேக்க நிலையில் அவுஸ்த்திரேலியாவின் வேலை வாய்ப்பிண்மை 4 % இலிருந்து சடுதியாக 8% ஆக அதிகரித்திருக்கிறது. நடுத்தர வர்க்கத்தைச் சேர்ந்த பல குடும்பங்கள் இன்று வேலையிழந்து நடுத்தெருவிற்கு வந்திருக்கின்றன. பல தொழிலதிபர்கள் தமது செலவினைக் குறைக்கும் முகமாக பல தொழிலாளர்களை வேலை நீக்கம் செய்கின்றனர். அவ்வாறான இடங்களுக்கு பகுதிநேர தொழிலாளர்கள் என்ற பெயரில் இந்திய மாணவர்களை அமர்த்த இந்த தொழில் அதிபர்கள் விரும்புகின்றனர். சராசரியாக 22 டால மணித்தியாலத்துக்கு கொடுக்க வேண்டிய இடத்தில் வெறும் 7 அல்லது 8 டாலருக்கு இந்திய மாணவர்கள் வேலை செய்ய விரும்புவதால் இவ்வாறான வேலை வாய்ப்பிண்மை அதிகரித்துக்கொண்டு போகிறது. இங்கு பலர் வாதாடலாம், இந்திய மாணவர்கள் மட்டும்தானா இங்கு வருகிறார்கள் என்று, உண்மையிலேயே இன்றைய நிலவரப்படி படிக்கவென்று அவுஸ்த்திரேலியாவை நோக்கிப் படையெடுக்கும் மாணவர்களில் 90 வீதமானவர்கள் வட இந்தியாவிலிருந்தே வருகின்றனர் என்பது புள்ளிவிபரப்படி உறுதிப்படுத்தப்படுகிறது. இதனால் அவுஸ்த்திரேலிய அரசு மீது பல சமூக வியல் அமைப்புகள் இவ்வாறான வீசா அனுமதிகளைக் குறைக்குமாறும், முழுவதுமாக ரத்துச் செய்யுமாறும் அழுத்தம் கொடுத்து வருகிறன. இதன் வெளிப்பாடுதான் அண்மையில் அரசு முன்மொழிந்திருக்கும் ""தொழில்சார் வீசாக்களுக்கான கட்டுப்பாடு" என்ற தீர்மானத்தைப் பார்க்கலாம். ஆகவே தமது வேலை வாய்ப்பிண்மைக்குக் காரணம் இந்த வட இந்தியர்கள் தான் என்கிற மனநிலை சாதாரண அவுஸ்த்திரேலியக் குடிமகனிடம் காணப்படுகிறது. ஆகவே இதுவே இந்திய மாண்வர்கள் மீதான தாக்குதலை உக்குவித்திருக்கலாம்.

ரெண்டாவது, இந்தியர்கள் செறிந்துவாழும் நகரங்களில் வீட்டு விலைகளும், வாடகையும் மற்ற இடங்களிலும் பார்க்க மிக அதிகமாகக் காணப்படுகிறது. அதற்கான காரணம் என்னவென்றால், 3 அல்லது 4 பேர் மட்டுமே வசிக்கக் கூடிய இரு அறைகள் கொண்ட ஒரு சிறிய வீட்டில் 8 முதல் 10 வரையான இந்திய மாணவர்கள் வசிப்பது. 300 டாலர் மட்டுமே வாராந்த வாடகையாகச் செலுத்தக் கூடிய இந்த வீடுகளை இந்திய மானவர்கள் 400 டாலருக்கு ஏலம் எடுக்கின்றனர்.இதனால் இங்கு வாழ என்று வரும் குடும்பங்கள் அதிக வாடகை கொடுக்க முடியாமல் திண்டாடுவதையும், வேறு நகர்கள் நோக்கிச் செல்வதையும் காணமுடிகிறது. 8 அல்லது 10 இந்திய மாணவர்களால் போட்டி மூலம் ஏலம் எடுக்கப்படும் இந்த வீட்டு வாடகையை இவர்கள் தமக்குள் பகிர்ந்துகொள்வதால் ஒருவருக்கு வெறும் 40 அல்லது 50 டாலர்கள் தான் வாரத்துக்கு செலவாகிறது. இவ்வாறே வீடுகள் வாங்கும்போது நடக்கிறது. ரெண்டு அல்லது மூன்று குடும்பங்கள் சேர்ந்து ஒரு வீட்டைக் கொள்வனவ்யு செய்வதால் வீடுகளின் விலையும் இப்பகுதிகளில் கடுமையாக அதிகரித்து வருகிறது. இவ்வாறான விலையேற்றங்கள் மற்ற அவுஸ்த்திரேலியர்களை இப்பகுதிகலை விட்டு போகச் செய்வதுடன், அவர்களின் வருமானத்துக்கு மிஞ்சிய செலவுகளையும் ஏற்படுத்தி விடுகிறது. இதுவும் ஒரு காரனம் இந்த வட இந்திய மாணவர்கள் மீதான் தாக்குதல்களுக்கு.

மூன்றாவது வட இந்திய மாணவர்கள் இங்குநடந்து கொள்ளும் விதம் பற்றியது. இங்கு பலராலும் சுட்டிக்காட்டப்படும் ஒரு விடயம் என்னவென்றால், பொது இடங்களிலோ அல்லது புகையிரதம், பேரூந்து போன்ற மக்கள் அதிகமாக பயணம் செய்யும் சந்தர்ப்பங்களில் இந்திய மாணவர்களின் செயல் எவ்வாறான முகச்சுளிப்புகளுக்கு ஆளாகிறதென்பது. பொது இடங்களில் கூடும் இந்தியர்கள், குறிப்பாக இந்திய மாணவர்கள் மிகவும் உச்ச தொணியில் தமக்குல் பேசிக்கொள்வதும், தொலைபேசியில் உரையாடுவதுமான நிகழ்வுகள். காலை மற்றும் மாலை நேரங்களில் வெலை நிமித்தம் புகையிரதங்களில் பயணம் செய்யும் ஆயிரக்கணக்கான அவுஸ்த்திரேலியர்கள் தினமும் சந்திக்கும் இந்த "இந்திக் கூச்சல்கள்". நூற்றுக்கணக்கான பயணிகள் அமைதியாக மர்ந்திருக்கும் ஒரு புகையிரதப் பெட்டியில் எங்கோ ஒரு மூலையில் இருந்து கொண்டு அந்தப் பெட்டி முழுவதற்குமே கேட்குமளவிற்கு உச்ச ஸ்த்தானியில் பேசும் இரு இந்தியர்கள், அல்லது தொலைபேசியில் காதலியுடனோ அல்லது காதலனுடனோ ரசித்து உரையாடும் இந்திய இளைஞர்கள். தம்மைச் சுற்றி எத்தனை பேர் இருக்கிறார்கள், எத்தனை பேருக்கு நாம் சங்கடமாக இருக்கிறோம் என்ற யோசனை கொஞ்சம் கூட இல்லாமல் தனது வீட்டில் இந்தியாவில் இருப்பது போன்ற பிரமையில் தம்மையறியாது கூக்குரலிடும் வட இந்திய மாணவர்கள். இவ்வலவிற்கும் அந்த மாணவர்கள் ஆங்கிலம் தெரியாதவர்களில்லை. ஆனால் வேண்டுமென்றே தமது வட இந்திய மொழியில் சத்தமாக மற்றவர்கள் முன்னால் சத்தமாகப் பேசுவதை கவுரவமாக நினைப்பதால் இது நடக்கிறது. எவரும் இதைத் தட்டிக் கேட்டாலோ அல்லது சத்தம் போட வேண்டாம் என்று சொன்னாலோ அவரை நோக்கி இரு வாரத்தைகலை வீசிவிட்டு மீண்டும் தமது பேச்சைத் தொடர்வார்கள்.

இதேபோல் தாம் குடியிருக்கும் பகுதிகளில் இரவு வேளைகளில் மதுபோதையில் இவர்கள் அடிக்கும் கும்மாளம். சில வேளைகளில் காலை 2 அல்லது 3 மணிவரை இந்தியில் உச்ச ஸ்த்தானியில் பாடலும், கூச்சல்களும் தொடரும். அவுஸ்த்திரேலியர்கள் மது அருந்துவதென்றால் மதுக்கடைகளுக்கே செல்வது வழமை. எவரும் வீடுகளில் மது அருந்திக்கொண்டு மற்றவர்களைக் குழப்புவதில்லை.இரவு 10 மணிக்குப் பின்னர் எவரும் கூச்சல் போடக்கூடாதென்று ஒரு விதியிருக்கு. அயலவர்கள் பொலீசிடம் முறையிட்டால் நடவடிக்கை எடுக்கும் அதிகாரமும் அவர்களுக்கு வழங்கப்பட்டிருக்கு. அப்படியிருந்தும் இவர்களின் அட்டகாசம் குறைவதில்லை. எனது மாடியினருகிலுள்ள எல்லா வீடுகளிலும் இந்தியர்களே வசிக்கிறார்கள். இரவு நேரங்களில் குறிப்பாக வெள்ளி மற்று வார விடுமுறை நாட்களில் இந்தப் பிரதேசம் அவுஸ்த்திரேலியாதானா அல்லது இந்தியாவின் மும்பாயா என்கிற சந்தேகம் வந்திவிடும் எனக்கு. இதனால் பலமுறை போலீசார் இங்கு வந்து போவதும் மற்ற இனத்தாருடன் இந்தியர்கள் தர்க்கத்தில் ஈடுபடுவது இங்கு சர்வ சாதாரணம். இந்திய தேசியவாதத்துக்குள் இருந்து பார்க்குமொருவருக்கு இவர்கள் இங்கே செய்யும் செயல்கள் கண்ணுக்குத் தெரியாது. ஏதோ அப்பாவிகளை இனவாதிகள் அடிப்பதாகத்தான் நினைத்து விடுகிறார்கள்.

நான்காவது, வேலை செய்யுமிடங்களில் அவர்கள் நடந்துகொள்ளும் விதம். எங்கு ரெண்டு இந்தியர்கள் கூடிவிடுகிறார்களோ அங்கு உடனேயே கிந்தியில் சத்தமாக பேச ஆரம்பித்து விடுகிறார்கள். தம்மைச் சுற்றி அந்த அலுவலகத்தில் கிந்தி தெரியாத மற்ற மொழிக்காரர்களும் இருக்கிறார்களே என்கிற சிந்தனை கொஞ்சமும் இல்லாமல் இவர்கள் தம்பாட்டிற்கு சத்தமாக பெசுவார்கள். இதனால் இவர்களுடன் ஒரே மேசையிலிருந்தோ அல்லது ஒரே அறையிலிருந்தோ வேலைபார்க்கும் வேற்று மொழிக்காரர் சங்கடப்பட்டு நெழிவதும், என்ன பேசுகிறார்கள் என்று தெரியாமல் முளிப்பதும் இங்கு சர்வ சாதாரனம். எவரும் தட்டிக்கேட்டால், "எமக்கு கிந்தியில் ம்பேசுவதுதான் சுலபம், ஆகவே நீங்கள் வேண்டுமான நாங்கள் பேசி முடியும்வரை வெளியே இருந்து விட்டு வாருங்கள்" என்று மிக அலட்சியமாகச் சொல்லி விடுகிறார்கள். "இங்கு பல இந்தி பேசும் இந்தியர்கள் இருக்கிறார்கள், ஏன் நீங்களும் இந்தி கற்கக் கூடாது" என்று என்னிடம் அடிக்கடி இவர்கள் கேட்பதுண்டு. பலமுறை இதனால் என்னுடன் இவர்கள் தர்க்கித்திருக்கிறார்கள். அவுஸ்த்திரேலியர்களும் சில வேளைகளில் இவர்களது தொல்லை தாங்க முடியாது இவர்களுடன் தர்கிப்பார்கள். அப்போதெல்லாம்" இந்த நாடு சரியில்லை, இங்கிருக்க எமக்குப் பிடிக்கவில்லை, உங்கள் கலாச்சாரம் கேவலமானது" என்று அவுஸ்திரேலியர்களிடம் ஆவேசமாக இவர்கள் கூறும்போது "அப்படியானால் உங்கள் நாட்டிற்குச் சென்று வாழ்வதுதானே? எதற்கு எங்கள் வரிப்பணத்தில் இருந்துகொண்டு எங்களைச் சாகடிக்கிறீர்கள்?" என்று பதிலுக்கு அவுஸ்த்திரேலியர்கள் சொல்வதையும் பலமுறை கண்டிருக்கிறேன். இங்கிருக்கும்வரை உழைக்க முடியுமானதை உழைத்துவிட்டு இறுதியில் உங்களுக்கு நாகரீகம் தெரியாது, உங்கள் கலாச்சாரத்தில் வாழ எங்கலுக்குப் பிடிக்கவில்லை என்று கூறிவரும் இந்தியர்களை வெள்ளைக்காரர்கள் எதிர்க்கிறார்கள். இந்தியா தரமான நாடென்றால் அங்கேயே இருந்திருக்க வேண்டியதுதானே, எதற்கு இங்கே வந்தீர்கள் என்று அவர்கள் கேட்கும் கேள்வியிலும் நியாயம் இருப்பதாகவே எனக்குப் படுகிறது.

இறுதியாக, மெல்பேணில் அண்மையில் ஒரு இந்தியர் தாக்கப்பட்டது அவர் இந்தியர் என்பதற்காக அல்ல. மாறாக இனவெறி பிடித்த சிங்களவர் கூட்டமொன்று வழியில் செல்லும் திராவிடர் போன்ற தோற்றமளித்த வட இந்தியரைத் தமிழர் என்று நினைத்து விட்டதனால்த்தான். அடி வாங்கி முடியும் தறுவாயில், அடித்தவர்களில் ஒருவர் "நீ எந்த நாட்டைச் சேர்ந்தவன்" என்று கேட்கும்போது தான் வட இந்தியர் என்று சொல்லியதால் அவரை விட்டார்கள். ஆனால் இதையும் வெள்ளைக்காரர் செய்ததாக பலர் காட்ட முனைதது வெதனைக்குரியது.

நன்றி ரகுநாதன்

http://www.yarl.com/forum3/index.php?showtopic=60071&st=0

[app_engine]

Though I don't like stereotyping in general, there are some characteristics that show up predominantly with some groups.

Like I observed in the Thamarai thread that "lack of unity" is a predominant characteristic of Thamizh linguistic group.

Similarly, I've personally observed this "ugly loudness" from Hindi speaking group when I was in college. People won't react to that in TN, but can't expect people not to react in places like AU :-(

As long as it's those individuals who display such ugly characteristics that get some "shut-up" things, it's not too bad.

Unfortunately, it never works that way but tarnishes the image of the whole community - in this case all people from the sub-continent - causes avoidable sufferings:-(

[irir123]

And I have to say I agree with most of the comments made by irir

I was once given a 15 min tutorial by an Indian engineering student as to how to jump red signals when noone is around during the nights!! some respect for rules !

these things and the others I mentioned may not directly affect ones behavior, but at some point or the other, it shows in the attitude

so far (maybe am lucky), i have not been roughed up by any Afro-american/Hispanic etc

and btw, most Caucasians i have come across are pretty honest about the negative side of the American society (my lab head's word "everything is royally screwed up"!!) and post Bush-Iraq fiasco even hardline pro-republicans are cautious when speaking abt America's role in global affairs - and btw, have actually very lofty views of India and Indian 'culture' !

I was once petrified when some of my colleagues spoke glorifyingly about the Indian middle class - I had to interrupt midway and tell them that, things in India are far from being perfect - gave them examples of the cauvery water issue(we cant even solve a simple water problem, while states here solved the problem by simply entering into a business deal to share river waters!) etc etc and some social evils that still persist

[irir123]

take a look at this current growing trend: http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/06/11/hate.groups/index.html

[jaiganes]

I am in US on L1 and I must say that big corporates blatantly misuse L1 program for the profit. I am here probably at a fraction of cost that it costs to hire a local software engineer. Locals demand more allowances and expansive lifestyle, while I am frugal and servile to my corporate masters and with a leash called L1 visa around my neck, I do as I am told and hence a better and cheaper alternative to a local. This is fact and right now clients demand from corporates that they bring in more L1 employees than the corporates' local or H1 holding employees. that is how rate card war can be won. So right now USCIS is busy sending RFE's to discorage L1 filings this year. I dont think there is racism anywhere in the play. Just that a local employed is more likely to spend in malls and contribute to the 'fake economic activity' that has propped up American dream so far.

[dsath]

take a look at this current growing trend: http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/06/11/hate.groups/index.html
I think there is definitely a growing acceptance ( though in small %) of right wing fundamentalism across the world.

Recently In Germany a publishing house published some of the pre world war II newspaper that promoted the dreaded Nazi ideas. These news papers were all sold out, I hear.

2 BNP candidates have been elected for EU parliament from UK.

Extreme Right wing Austrian parties get a say in the government for the first time after the first world war.

Ofcourse there is the Buddhist chauvinism which holds its own citizens in a camp to re-educate them (Am I the only one seeing parallels to Hitler here).

Only India is not following this trend atleast politically speaking. The BJP has lost badly in the elections.

Having said that I cannot forget the fact that we have a huge market for even men's fairness cream in India. Just imagine all Indians using the cream and turning whiter or fairer in a generation, a white India !!!!!!!!!

[m_23_bayarea]

So right now USCIS is busy sending RFE's to discorage L1 filings this year

:clap:

Perhaps, your explanation on L1 visas is what the locals have misunderstood with H1 visas. I had little or no knowledge of the L1 system, but your details explains it all! 8-)

[app_engine]

Reg H1 / L1 :

If a company really wants to cut costs on techies, sending the job abroad has been the approach for at least 4 years now (as L1 / H1 won't cut costs significantly due to the "prevailing wage approval" conditions, unless the company is so unscrupulous to do fraud).

There're some advantages (as jaiganes talked about the "leash" thing - getting more output from the L1 / H1) but definitely no great cost advantage IMO. It's absolute misinformation that brought up the wrong concept of "L1 / H1's taking our jobs by undercutting" . Typically, L1/H1's fill where there are not enough people available to get the job done within the time frame and at that point of time it's not feasible to send work abroad).

As for big corporates are concerned, they all have huge facilities in India and even pushing westerners to move to India for cost cutting. So, the job losses in techie sector due to H1/L1 is miniscule compared to what IBM etc have "totally moved" to India (much like the setting up of factories in yesteryears in Asia.)

And, to my knowledge, till 2007, there wasn't great animosity from local techies to H1/L1. Now, yes, because of large scale job losses. Funnily, these affect H1 / L1's worse than locals (as many companies have started advertising GC only EID only etc to avoid any issues related to immigration / prevailing wage approval etc.

As this is the pathetic situation of H1s, there're not many apps this year. Economy is one reason but bigger reason is outsourcing. Most big corporates now almost 100% do the after-launch-support from offshore facilities. Even new developments are handled like - tech lead / PM / SME at client site with whole dev team outside the country. (I work for a consulting company and this is the biz model for them, for e.g.)

So, jobs are "taken OUT" and not "taken up by H1/L1" in today's condition.

[app_engine]

Ask any H1, they're probably paid 60K or more (otherwise difficult to get prevailing wage approval neither possible to live decently in US).

That means the consulting company (excluding those which work for $5 / $10 margin per hour), has to bill the client at least 100K against this H1.

Do you think US locals are unwilling to work at that cost? Hardly. I've been in the Peoplesoft HR for years and have a decent idea of the average pay.

So let's not imagine things about H1 / L1 being cheap etc.

[app_engine]

If you people think I'm incorrect, please visit websites like corp-corp.com that specialize on contract IT jobs.

Look for the hourly rates and then you'll understand the reality.

All this talk about H1 / L1 undercutting is மாட்டுச்சாணி :-)

[app_engine]

Bottomline is H1 / L1 that was originally intended for "filling the gap between demand and supply" is kind of enforced through the economy being down.

Definitely there were companies that mushroomed around Y2K, taking adv of people who even paid money to get H1, cheat them with low wages, undercut prices etc. However, with the huge outsourcing (thanks mainly due to "fibre optic" IMO) all such companies have struggled to the point of becoming extinct. The economy made sure their downfall continues.

[app_engine]

If anyone in US (or EU / AU / JP anywhere) wants to find the cause for techie job losses, they should actually blame it on "technological innovation", especially in the telecom.

காலத்தின் கட்டாயம்.

Technology has often robbed people of their jobs (talk about industrial automation) and it can't be helped. One has to keep retraining / learning / getting new skills or if nothing of those are possible, play politics to put restrictions / quotas this that.

Envying and turning one's anger against better skilled people is another option. With the associated consequenses, ofcourse.

[app_engine]

m_23_bayarea,

I've worked with tons of L1's as team mates and they're not paid less than H1.

Though I'm not very sure about whether they also have to have "prevailing wage approval", the simple economics won't allow them to live in U.S. if paid below $25-30 an hour. And remember, these can only come through reasonably decent corporate channels, unlike H1s who could use desi start-ups.

[app_engine]

And L1s and H1s cannot live in US without health insurance / cannot live without automobile in most places (and its insurance) / more than 50% of them live with families.

Well, they may not spend for vacation and other luxuries, but typically live in apartments and pay huge rents. (Unlike a local college graduate who possibly can live with parents / inherited a home etc).

So, where is the question of local person "spending more and expecting more benefits" come? Another மா.சா.

I know 1000's of locals - including techie workers - whose monthly expenses, if mortgage is excluded or replaced with rent, is much lower than that of most H1 / L1's.

[app_engine]

Take for example, the health insurance premiums / deductibles / co-pay's etc.

Whenever I have a conversation with any American on the costs, typically, their monthly budget on this is less than what an average Indian H1 spends. Having worked in Psft benefits, I have a decent idea of the premiums paid to various healthcare companies as well as other associated costs. Why, I myself have been in a variety of insurance plans and know the costs both fixed and variable.

If someone says Americans have better insurance than H1 / L1s and so companies spend a lot more on them etc., I'm willing to discuss on another thread as to how foolish that assumption is :-)

All said - there are always exceptions, but we can only talk about what happens to the majority based on facts and figures. We should not generalize based on isolated cases.

[Nerd]

Well, the 60k - 100k thingi is not exactly right.

contract positions - American vendors bill $80 or so for a .Net/J2EE person and Infosys/CTS bill $60 or so for the same position. And they are OK with $35 for off-shore guys. The difference as you can see is HUGE.

Direct Hires - The minimum wage to get your LCA approved is $40k/annum. But after 2007, USCIS checks the prevailing wage etc. to approve H-1s. And I know many people who are working for < 60k! Again it depends upon the state you live in. In states like NC, AR, and to some extent Texas $55k is sufficient.

[app_engine]

American vendors billing $80 for J2EE - I don't think it's today's "average" situation. I work for a huge french conglomerate and their billing rates aren't different from Infosys, actually lower in many cases for consultants in U.S.

And in MI, even ERP consultants are available at $50-55 billing rates today. The big 3 (now the big 1 as others are in chap 11) used to get contractors for as low as $40 for the last few years, from American firms.

There is huge difference between on-shore and off-shore, which I've informed as well above. That's the driver for all firms setting up shops in India. OTOH, for contractors inside U.S., I don't think huge difference exists between Wipro / Infosys and local firms. Infact, firms like Synova etc are much cheaper and they even work at a margin of $5-10 per hour in many cases with the consultant mending from his money the insurance etc.

My point was to highlight the non-difference between direct hires & consultants. As your post indicates, when someone can hire local @ 40K plus limited benefits (even add liberally another 20K), it's going to be only 60K or $30 per hour. This is as low as off-shore rate and significantly less than what they're paying for contractors today.

So, where is the question of H1 grabbing a direct hire's job, unless the H1 is paid McDonald rates?

[app_engine]

A college grad, even if he doesn't have any aid etc and spend all tution from loans, may spend around 80K for a 4 year degree (decent universities like U of M, for e.g.).

That's all they've ever spent in their life for education and if someone is a local they have all kinds of aids / scholarships and they may be able to finish it for a fraction.

Recently the company I work for have been recruiting local college grads for 40-50K range - youngsters and they don't seem to have any problem (mostly for Msft tech, and the office is filled with lot of freshies).

It is very very difficult for H1B's to compete with them, if there are ENOUGH SUPPLY of such people. Who is stopping local youngsters to grab jobs like that? And with every member of the family working in the case of locals (H1 has to live with one salary, the H4 dependants cannot work) where is the question of H1 undercutting the price and grabbing the job?

The fact is, but for the collapse of the economy, there were still demand-supply gap here. H1s / L1s are also expensive (periodic visa renewals etc also cost companies money) and so companies like Infosys / Wipro work hard to get as much job done in India as possible. There are any number of cases where Wipro sent back H1's (and also terminated them once they land in India).

Bottomline, this is just a false propaganda that H1 / L1 undercuts prices to grab jobs. It's the "offshore" that does it.

[Nerd]

I was talking only about big corporates (Fortune < 100) where there is a clear difference between an American consultant and and the Indian counterpart. And most of the job descriptions (smaller companies) I see offer only between 25-35$ per hour for a J2EE consultant!!

I was trying to highlight the fact that we Indians are cheaper than the Americans and so they should not complain!

[m_23_bayarea]

app_engine,

The whole reason why I brought this H1 thingie on this "Racism" thread was because, I see the locals always complaining on forums that H1 workers take away the jobs of Americans, and that too for cheap labor!

As you've so well articulated, this is such a false propaganda, and the reason why I think they keep proclaiming this false "truth" is that they just can't stand the incoming of others here, whether it's H1B or not! It's more of the "attitude" that I was questioning than the visa issue itself. I was just wondering if that "attitude" has anything to do with racism! That's abt it...

Thanks for all the insights! Really glad to see that we do NOT in fact steal away their opportunities as they think.

8-)

[app_engine]

Just for the info of those rare species of non-IT hubbers :

- Average billing hours for a person per year is around 2000 ( weekly 40 hours)

- So, when we talk about $60K (all incl.) salary per annum, it's only $30 per hour to the H1B. There are consulting companies which bill people at $40 per hour and still make $10 and flourish provided they can place them through out the year and have enough number of people. All other expenses (like VISA renewal, healthcare etc is deducted from the individual's earning).

-For arguement's sake, even if we assume the company pays the H1B fellow as low as $20 per hour ($40K per annum, a family may not survive but individuals can), with it's margin, it has to still bill the client $25 - $30 per hour which means the end customer pays > $50K minimum to the hypthetically lowest paid H1B.

However, even that is not legally possible Why?

- Each state has its "prevailing wage rate" which has to be matched for the specifi skillset. Otherwise, there won't be labor approval and no H1B. And if a person's labor is approved in a particular state, he cannot work in another without another labor approval. For e.g. if Iowa has $30K per annum and a person gets labor there and try to work at that price in California is not possible legally. There have been companies doing such fraud and such are now getting clamped.

So, if a local is QUALIFIED, he can just like that walk away with the job by coolly undercutting the price, as there's no margin, no visa, no agency to be paid.

Still, why companies cannot get everyone direct recruits as employees, with these advantages?

சிம்பிள்...தகுதியான ஆள் இல்லை. ஒண்ணு கூடக்காசு கொடுத்து H1B எடுக்கணும். இல்லாட்டி, offshore, which could be much cheaper as well! This has been the situation for many years and even now, with economy down / lot of people jobless etc, companies still take / retain H1s, at higher costs, though there's a downward trend.

[app_engine]

I was talking only about big corporates (Fortune < 100) where there is a clear difference between an American consultant and and the Indian counterpart. And most of the job descriptions (smaller companies) I see offer only between 25-35$ per hour for a J2EE consultant!!

I was trying to highlight the fact that we Indians are cheaper than the Americans and so they should not complain!

I'm employed by one such and most of my clients are such fortune fellows. I agree the cost difference between an "American in US" and an "Indian in India" is huge.

However, there's no cost difference between American in US and Indian in US, infact the Indian could prove to be more expensive, as his "being here and living here" are controlled by many other factors where undercutting is impossible. Except getting a cheaper degree in India, every other cost is same or higher. (Nowadays, cost of education is phenomenal even in India and it starts right from LKG. OTOH, Amercian spends just for four years in his entire life, that too if he wants to have a college degree. I know most people work without one here.)

That's all I'm trying to prove here and there're no grounds for people to grumble on techie workers coming into the country as undercutting and grabbing jobs :-)

[app_engine]

Obviously, racism does not work with logic and reasoning / number etc.

It goes like "I lost my job, foreign country took it away, hey this fellow on the street is from THAT country, hit him".

Unfortunately, this fellow walking on the street is noway responsible for that (unless he owns a company in Chennai doing job for a US company at very cheap rate).

When all people in a minivan but one died (Syntel employees who were travelling from Detroit to Niagra Falls), one should see all those hate messages on the Detroit Freepress newspaper's website. Possibly, that was the first time I felt "some" form of racism.

[Nerd]

Well, interesting. I am a consultant for one of the Fortune 100 through an American vendor. In 2007, there were about 500 of us working here through different American vendors (includes, Indians, Russians, Americans etc). Came 2009 they fired about 400 and brought about 300 people from Indian companies!! One of the Indian company's account manager is a friend of mine so I sort of know how much they bill the client :)

[app_engine]

Like I said earlier, Nerd, that account manager / company was smart or the vendor who lost the contract was too greedy and had twisted policies (like GM / Chrysler, paying unreasonable amounts to UAW workers, someone placing a screw in a car assy could cost $60 an hour).

However, things are changing fast and I see local boys accepting jobs at $40K as mentioned earlier.

I'm surprised that the Indian firm brings 300 people to US. I see the opposite trend all-around, my last client had TCS almost wholesale in dev and about 50% of people were cut and all those L1's had to go back in Dec / Jan.

[app_engine]

ok, I'm quitting the H1 discussion:-)

I have tons of local friends with no college degree and are working on "around $20 per hour" jobs - mostly non-IT.

Their life standards are typically much better when both spouses work with a owned house.

And they don't seem to complain about losing out on IT jobs or Indians running away with their jobs:-) For one thing, they don't post in such "hate-forums" :-)

Interestingly, there was a wave of irritation when call centers stole huge chunks of jobs out of the country. I don't see now at the same intensity of hate? What happened?

[Nerd]

The number of Infy consultants have doubled in a year here! (from 250 to 500!!). And this firm has completely stopped hiring consultants through American vendors! I know of at least two other corporates doing the same thing.

Yes, let's quit :)

[m_23_bayarea]

Obviously, racism does not work with logic and reasoning / number etc.

It goes like "I lost my job, foreign country took it away, hey this fellow on the street is from THAT country, hit him".

Unfortunately, this fellow walking on the street is noway responsible for that (unless he owns a company in Chennai doing job for a US company at very cheap rate).

When all people in a minivan but one died (Syntel employees who were travelling from Detroit to Niagra Falls), one should see all those hate messages on the Detroit Freepress newspaper's website. Possibly, that was the first time I felt "some" form of racism.

In California, especially in the SF Bay Area, it's very subtle or hidden, because here, due to the diversity in cultures, if a Caucasian guy makes even the slightest remark, people will pounce on him calling him racist! In fact, they go to the other extreme and show off as being sooo welcoming, in making statements like "I love people", "I love different cultures", "I love different authentic cuisines", and what not! 8-)

But at the same time, it's still embedded in their systems, and you can easily sense that especially in common places like grocery stores, buses, etc. more than a workplace or university! The other place where I have seen some explicit comments being made in the name of honesty is in "ultra-conservative" protestant churches, where it's unbelievable (being a Christian myself) where faith and political issues go so hand in hand! It happens only in America... :oops:

[raagadevan]

Agree that they are generally loud and don't know how to behave in public trains and buses but they are a hundred times better than afr-Americans and Hispanics as far as Texas is concerned.

:omg: :huh:
eh???? I was just talking about the general behavior. Do you see Indians drinking/doing drugs in public? Do you see Indians wearing their trousers below their ? Do you see Indians carrying knives/guns threaening others for money?Have you been on public buses with those people sitting right next to you?

Indians usually are the soft targets for stealing money/cars at gunpoint etc. Even the Chinese have their own mafias in different parts of the USA.

Nerd: There are "East Indian Gangs" operating in several cities in the world, including Vancouver, Toronto, Sidney, etc. If you are interested, I will send you links to old and current newspaper articles about murders, kidnapping, drug trafficking and other activities that these gangs are involved in.

[app_engine]

http://dailythanthi.com/article.asp?NewsID=494058&disdate=6/14/2009

Simple - this is a "who is an easy target" kind of crime.

Simply media blows it out of proportion as 'racist attack'. Definitely not!

[app_engine]

Just curious - has there been any attack on any "female Indian student" in AU ?

[Nerd]

Raagadevan: Are they as big/famous as Chinese/Cuban mafias? They are non-existent in the USA at least.

[raagadevan]

Nerd:

Here are some of the links that I was talking about:

http://www.indolink.com/displayArticleS.php?id=041306085913

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A4162-2004Jul21?language=printer

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/story.html?id=c3fcc6ff-57bd-4d19-901d-9fc4689d4d51&k=16043

[Nerd]

Thanks for the insight raagadevan.

[app_engine]

http://www.dinamalar.com/Arasiyalnewsdetail.asp?news_id=11781#178420

Looks like there's growing recognition on the variety of reasons for attack on Indian students down under. (This news report blames afgans / lebanese who lost jobs to cheaper workers aka Indian students and attack them because of loss of livelihood)

[irir123]

"India Is Racist, And Happy About It"

http://outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20090629&fname=Cover+Story+%28F%29&sid=4

[ajithfederer]

Nerd was spot right a couple of pages before.

[sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar]

Agree that they are generally loud and don't know how to behave in public trains and buses but they are a hundred times better than afr-Americans and Hispanics as far as Texas is concerned.a bit of digression here...

i have never seen an indian shouting in bus or train. my experience is bit reverse. i was on 3 months deputation in california. in weekends we[3 of us] used to take 22 bus which pass via downtown. when we return at nights, esp weekends, we use to see some old drunkard men enering bus, and as soon as he sees us, bunch of 3 indians, he starts blabberring something. some times they start friendly with us and afterwards starts something which we really dont understand. the core we understood is something like - why this idiots are coming here...etc. other passeners, sometimes, will have a silent but similar look on us. sometimes i will travel alone and feel embarassed. all in one bus one route. once i also seen a drunkard not giving his seat to hadicapped. he was sitting in the seats prioritised for handicaps. the driver forcibly had to stop and push him down

it was not even texas, but silicon valley!

[app_engine]

"India Is Racist, And Happy About It"

http://outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20090629&fname=Cover+Story+%28F%29&sid=4

Very painful to read this truthful article :-(

There is just one observation - the author talks about the indifference to north east. It's similar treatment to "relatively dark skinned" southies as well.

In my many visits to Mumbai, I never felt any coldness despite my lack of Hindi (at that time).

I can't say the same about Delhi, unfortunately. I feel more at home in Detroit (or any American city for that matter) than in Delhi.

[littlemaster1982]

[tscii:534870d13b]From Jeyamohan's blog (http://jeyamohan.in/?p=3120).

அன்புள்ள ஜெயமோகன்,

ஆஸ்திரேலியாவில் இப்போது இந்தியர்கள்மேல் நடக்கும் இனவெறித்தாக்குதல்களைப் பற்றி என்ன நினைக்கிறீர்கள்?

ஜாஸ் டயஸ்
ஆஸ்திரேலியாவின் தாக்குதல்களைப் பற்றி இம்மாத சண்டே இண்டியன் இதழில் மிண்டு பிரார் என்ற ஆஸ்திரேலிய சீக்கியர் எழுதிய கடிதம் உள்ளது. ”ஆஸ்திரெலியர்கள் மேல்தான் குற்றமா?” என்ற அக்கட்டுரை மிக முக்கியமான ஒன்று. அதில் அவர் அங்கே படிக்கச் சென்றிருக்கும், குடியேறியிருக்கும் இந்தியர்களின் நடத்தை பற்றிச் சொல்லி அது அங்குள்ள மக்களிடம் உருவாக்கியிருக்கும் ஆழமான மனக்கசப்பை பற்றிச் சொல்லியிருக்கிறார். நூற்றுக்கு நூறு நான் அனுபவித்தறிந்த, உடன்படக்கூடிய, ஒரு கோணம் அது

டெல்லியில் நீங்கள் இருந்திருந்தால் வட இந்தியர்கள், சீக்கியர்கள் குறிப்பாக, நடந்துகொள்ளும் முறையை அறிந்து மனம் கசந்திருப்பீர்கள். குறிப்பாக தென்னிந்தியர்களை அவர்கள் நடத்தும் விதம். அவர்களுக்கு விசித்திரமான ஒரு உயர்வு மனப்பான்மை. பெரும்பாலான உயர்வு மனப்பான்மைகள் ஆழமான தாழ்வு மனப்பான்மையில் இருந்து செயற்கையாக உருவாக்கிக் கொள்ளப்பட்டவை. தென்னிந்தியர்களை மூளைக்காரர்கள் என்று அவர்கள் சரியாகவோ தப்பாகவோ எண்ணிக்கொண்டு வரும் உயர்வு மனப்பான்மையா இது?



நான் மும்பை விமான நிலையத்தில் வரிசையில் நிற்கும்போது ஒரு தடித்த சீக்கியர் தன் மனைவியுடன் வந்து ‘ஜா’ என என்னை உந்திவிட்டு என் முன்னால் நின்றார். நான் அவரிடம் வரிசையில் நிற்கும்படி சொன்னேன். என் முகத்தில் உந்தி போடா என்று இந்தியில் சொன்னார். பின்னால் நின்ற அவரது மனைவியும் என்னை வைதார். எனக்குப்பின்னால் நின்ற ஒரு தமிழர் ‘அவனுக அப்டித்தான் சார். அவனுக கிட்ட சண்டை போட முடியாது’ என்றார்

இனிமேல் கவனியுங்கள், சீக்கியர்களும் பொதுவாக வட இந்தியர்களும் உங்களை தாண்டிச்சென்றால் தள்ளி உந்தி செல்வார்கள். வழியோ மன்னிப்போ கேட்க மாட்டார்கள். ஒரு பேச்சுக்குக் கூட மரியாதையான சொற்களைச் சொல்ல மாட்டார்கள். தங்களுக்குள் நம்மைப்பற்றி கெட்டவார்த்தை சொல்லி சிரிப்பார்கள். நம்மிடம் எதையாவது கேட்டாகள் என்றால் நாம் அவர்களின் வேலைக்காரர்கள் என அவர்கள் நினைப்பது போலிருக்கும். எந்தவகையான பொது இட மரியாதைகளையும் பேண மாட்டார்கள்.

இது சென்னையிலும் தமிழகத்திலும்கூட அவர்களின் வழக்கமாக இருக்கிறது. ரயிலில் ஒரு வட இந்தியர் என்னிடம் அவரது மேல் பெர்த்தை எடுத்துக்கொள்ள முடியுமா என்றார். அவரால் ஏறமுடியாதாம். சரி என்றேன். ஆனால் படுக்கப்போகும்போது பார்த்தால் மேல் பர்த் முழுக்க அவரது பெட்டிகள். அதை கீழே எடுத்துக்கொள்ளும்படி அவரிடம் கேட்டேன். ‘அதெப்படி, கீழே இடமில்லை” என்றார். ”சரி அப்படியானால் நீங்கள் அங்கே படுங்கள்…நான் ஏன் உங்கள் பெட்டிகள் நடுவே படுத்துக்கொள்ள வேண்டும்?” என்றேன். அவர் கடுமையான கோபத்துடன் என்னை வசை பாடினார்.

நான் அவரிடம் கீழே இருக்கும் என் படுக்கையிடத்தை விட்டுத்தரும்படி கேட்டேன். ‘அதை நீ எனக்கு கொடுத்து விட்டாயே’ என்றார். எனக்கு முதலில் திகைப்பு. இப்படி க்கூடவா இருப்பார்கள்! என்ன நியாய உணர்வு அது என. பலமுறை சொன்னேன். கைநீட்டி ‘ஜாவ் ஜாவ்’ என்றார் பிச்சைக்காரனை துரத்துவது போல. அவரை அப்படியே அவரது படுக்கையுடன் இழுத்து கீழே போட்டேன். எழுந்து அடிக்க வந்தார். நானும் அடிக்க தயரானேன். பக்கத்து படுக்கையில் இருந்த பலர் கத்த ஆரம்பித்தார்கள். அவர்கள் எல்லாம் அவரது ஆட்கள். நானும் கத்தினேன். அது தமிழகம் என்பதனால் அவர்கள் ஒன்றும் செய்ய முடியவில்லை. ஆனால் இரவு நெடுநேரம் வசைபாடிக்கொண்டே இருந்தார்.

நான் வடஇந்தியாவில் - அதாவது பிகார், பஞ்சாப், உபியில்- பார்த்திருக்கிறேன், பஸ்ஸில் ஒருவர் அவரது பெட்டியை நம் காலடியில் வைப்பார், அவர் காலை நீட்டி வசதியாக உட்கார்வதற்காக. அதில் உள்ள பிழையே அவர்களுக்குப் படாது. சொல்லப்போனால் திட்டுவார். நம்மை தாண்டி எச்சிலை பறக்க விடுவார். ரயிலில் நம் இடத்தை எடுத்துக்கொள்வது சர்வ சாதாரணம். தனியாக வட இந்தியாவில் பயணம்செய்வதென்பது மிக அபாயகரமானது. வட இந்தியாவில் வாழ நேர்ந்த தென்னிந்தியர்கள் இவர்களின் அட்டூழியங்களுக்கு அஞ்சித்தான் வாழ்கிறார்கள்.

இந்த மனநிலையைப் பற்றி ஒருமுறை நான் ஒரு மூத்த கேரள இதழாளர்களிடம் உரையாடியபோது அவர் சொன்ன சித்திரம் வேறு. வா இந்தியர்களாக நாம் ரயிலில், கல்வி நிறுவனங்களில் எல்லாம் காணநேரும் மக்கள் உண்மையில் வட இந்திய உயர்சாதி - உயர் குடியினர். பாரம்பரியமாகவே நியதிகளுக்கு அப்பாற்பட்டு வாழும் ஆணவம் அவர்களுக்கு இருக்கிறது. ஒரு சட்டத்தை மதிப்பதென்பது அவர்களுக்கு இழிவான ஒன்றாகவே தெரிகிறது. உண்மையான உயர்குடிகள் என்றால் வரிசையில் நிற்கக் கூடாது, எங்கும் காத்து நிற்கக் கூடாது, எவரிடமும் பணியக்கூடாது, தன்னுடைய வசதிகளுக்காக பிறரை ஏவ வேண்டும், பிறர் தங்களுக்கு பணிசெய்ய பிறந்தவர்கள்– இதுதான் இவர்களின் பொதுவான மனநிலையாக இருக்கிறது.

இந்த ஆணவத்தை தாங்கித் தாங்கி சொல்லிழந்து சுயமிழந்துபோன கோடானுகோடி மக்களால் ஆனதே உண்மையான வட இந்தியா. அந்த மக்களைப் பார்த்தால் அவர்கள் அஞ்சி கூசி குறுகி வளைந்து வாழ்வதைப் பார்த்தால் நமக்கு துணுக்குறுகிறது. அவர்களுக்கு சுயமரியாதை என்பதே இருப்பதில்லை. நண்பர் சொன்னார், ஒரு வட இந்தியப் பணக்காரன் புத்தம் புது ஊரில் இறங்கி அங்கே நிற்கும் ஒரு ஏழையை அடே போட்டுக் கூப்பிட்டு தனக்கு ஒரு வேலையை ஏவ முடியும். அவன் செய்வான், செய்யாமலிருக்க முடியாது.

இந்தக்குடும்பங்களின் வாரிசுகள்தான் ஆஸ்திரேலியா அல்லது கனடா அல்லது அமெரிக்கா செல்கிறார்கள். தங்கள் சொந்த ஊரில் சட்டம் நெறிக்கு அப்பாற்பட்ட பூலோக தேவர்களாக எண்ணிக்கொள்ளும் அதே மனநிலையை அப்படியே அங்கும் காட்டுகிறார்கள். அது பெரும்பாலும் சகித்துக்கொள்ளப்படுவதில்லை. இந்திய மாணவர்கள் மேல் பொதுவாக உருவாகியிருக்கும் வெறுப்புக்கு இதுவே ஊற்றுக்கண்ணாக இருக்கக் கூடும்.

சமீபகாலமாக தமிழ்நாட்டில் இந்த மனநிலை பரவி வருகிறது. இளைஞர்கள் எந்தவித நாகரீக ஒழுங்குகளுக்கும் கட்டுப்படாது நடந்து கொள்வதே இப்போதைய மோஸ்தர் என்றால் மிகையல்ல நடுச்சாலையில் குடிப்பது, பைக்குகளில் ஆர்ப்பாட்டம் போட்டுச்செல்வது, அப்பாவிகளை துன்புறுத்துவது. இந்த மனநிலை நமது பணக்கார வீட்டு குழந்தைகளுக்கு இயல்பாகவே வந்து விடுகிறது. தங்களை வரம்பெற்ற மனிதர்களாக, உலகமே தங்களுக்கு ஏவல் செய்ய வேண்டிய ஒன்றாக, இவர்கள் எண்ணுகிறார்கள். எந்தச் சட்டமும் தங்களை எதுவும்செய்யமுடியாது என எண்ணுகிறார்கள்.

உண்மையில் அப்படித்தான். ஒன்றும் செய்ய முடியாது இங்கே. பணம் இருந்தால் போலீஸ் உங்கள் குற்றேவல் கும்பல்தான். நம் பெற்றோர் பிள்ளைகளை இப்படித்தான் இப்போது வளர்க்கிறார்கள். சென்னையில் எந்தவித பொதுஇட மரியாதையும் இல்லாத இளைஞர்களை நீங்கள் ஸ்பென்ஸர் பிளாசாவில்தான் பார்க்கலாம். பண்படாத மிருகங்கள் போல நடந்துகொள்ளும் சிறுவர் சிறுமியரை. …பேச்சு மட்டும் ஆங்கிலத்தில் இருக்கும், அதுவே நாகரீகம் என்ற நம்பிக்கையும்.

சென்ற மாதம் திருவனந்தபுரம்-சென்னை விமானத்தில் ஒரு பதின்வயதுப்பெண்ணைப் பார்த்தேன். பார்த்தாலே தெரியும் நவீன இந்திய உயர்குடிப்பெண் என. விமானம் புறப்பாடு அறிவித்த பின்னரும் அவள் குறுஞ்செய்தி அனுப்பிக்கொண்டிருந்தாள். செல்போனை அணைக்கும்படி பலமுறை அறிவிப்பு வந்தபின்னரும் அவள் பொருட்படுத்தவில்லை. பணிப்பெண் வந்து மென்மையாக செல்போனை அணைக்கும்படிச் சொன்னாள். அச்சிறுமி கோபத்துடன் ‘போ…அணைக்கிறேன்’ என்றபின் மேலும் தன் பாட்டில் குறுஞ்செய்தி அனுப்பிக்கொண்டிருந்தாள்.

பணிப்பெண் மீண்டும் சொன்னாள் அவள் கடும் கோபத்துடன் ‘போ…நான் அணைக்கிறேன்’ என்றபின் மீண்டும் தொடர்ந்தாள் பணிப்பெண் அருகிலேயே நின்றிருந்தாள். அவள் தலை தூக்கி புதிதாகக் கேட்பது போல ‘ஏன்?” என்றாள். பணிப்பெண் மிக பணிவாக செல் ·போனை அணக்கும்படிச் சொன்னாள். அவள் பேசாமல் மீண்டும் குறுஞ்செய்தி அனுப்பியபின் அணைத்தாள். கிட்டத்தட்ட பத்து நிமிடம். பணிப்பெண் நன்றி என்றாள். அவள் ‘கோ டு ஹெல்” என்றாள். விமானமே இந்தப்பெண்ணுக்காக காத்திருந்தது

இந்த இளவரசி யார்? கிரானைட் அல்லது இறால் ஏற்றுமதி செய்யும் ஒரு ஆசாமியின் மகளாக இருப்பாள். இன்னமும் நிலப்பிரபுத்துவ காலம் விட்டு மீளவில்லை. முதலாளித்துவத்துக்கு அதற்கான சில மரியாதைகள் பண்புநலன்கள் உண்டு. அவை எதுவுமே இவள் மண்டையில் ஏறவில்லை. முதலாளித்துவம் மூலம் உருவாக்கப்பட்ட ஒருவகை நிலப்பிரபுத்துவ ஜீவி. நம் உயர்வற்க இளைஞர்களில் பெரும்பாலானவர்கள் இப்படிப்பட்டவர்கள். சமீப காலமாக நட்சத்திர ஓட்டல்களில் இம்மாதிரி ஆசாமிகளை தொடர்ந்து பார்த்து வருகிறேன்.

இவர்கள்தானே ஆஸ்திரேலியா அல்லது ஐரோப்பாவுக்குச் செல்லும் இந்தியர்கள்? நானே மெல்பர்னில் மெட்ரோ ரயிலில் இந்திய மாணவர்கள் இரைந்து கத்தி அநாகரீகமாக நடந்துகொள்வதைப் பார்த்தேன். ரயில் நிலையத்தில் துப்பிக்கொண்டே செல்லும் ஒருவனைப் பார்த்தேன். அவர்கள் உருவாக்கும் மனப்பதிவு என்பது இப்படி ஒரு வன்முறையாக வெடிப்பது புரிந்துகொள்ளக் கூடிய ஒன்றே. இந்தியாவிலும் பல இடங்களில் இத்தகைய வன்முறைகள் வெடித்துள்ளன.

இதை வெள்ளைய இனவெறி என தந்திரமாக திசை திருப்பிவிட்டது இந்திய ஊடகங்கள் என அதே சண்டே இன்டியன் இதழில் ஆஸ்திரேலிய இதழாளர் ஆண்ட்ரூ போல்ட் எழுதுகிறார். இந்திய மாணவர்கள் தக்கபப்ட்ட சம்பவங்களில் எடுக்கப்பட்ட கண்காணிப்பு காமிரா பதிவுகளில் தாக்கியவர்களில் எல்லா இனத்தவரும் இருப்பது தெளிவாகவே பதிவான பிறகும் இது வெள்ளைய இன வெறி என்றே வன்மமாக பிரச்சாரம் செய்யப்படுகிறது. இந்த விஷயம் இந்திய ஊடகங்களில் இருக்கும் இதே இந்திய உயர்குடி ஆசாமிகளால் வர்க்க உணர்வுடன் மிகைப்படுத்தப்பட்டது என்றே நான் எண்ணுகிறேன்.

இந்திய மாணவர்கள் இந்த ‘நிறவெறி’ தாக்குதல்களுக்கு எதிராக சிட்னி மற்றும் மெல்பர்ன் நகரில்செய்த போராட்டங்கள் ஆபாசமானவை. இந்தியாவில் கும்பல்மனநிலையையே போராட்ட உத்தியாக ஆக்கும் ஒரு கேடுகெட்ட பண்பாடு நம்மிடம் உள்ளது. சாலைகளை மறிப்பது, தெருவில் கூச்சலிட்டு நடனமாடுவது, கத்துவது என அனைத்து நெறிகளையும் மீறுவதே இங்கே நாம் போராட்டமாக கருதியிருக்கிறோம். சாலையில் செல்லும் சம்பந்தமில்லாத அப்பாவிகளை தாக்குவதும், அவமதிப்பதும்கூட இங்கே போராட்டமுறைதான்.

இதற்குக் காரணம் இங்குள்ள நம் ஊடகங்கள். ஒரு நியாயமான போராட்டத்தை அவை பொருட்படுத்தாது. ஆனால் ஒரு சிறிய வன்முறை அதில் சேர்ந்துகொண்டால் பெரிய செய்தி ஆகிவிடும். நாகர்கோயில் வடசேரியில் தண்ணீர் பஞ்சம், மக்கள் தர்ணா என்றால் செய்தியே அல்ல. வடசேரியில் மக்கள் தண்ணீர்க் குடங்களால் பேருந்துகளை தாக்கினார்கள் என்றால் புகைப்படச்செய்தி. இந்த கும்பல் மனநிலையை ஆஸ்திரேலியாவில் செய்து நாம் நம்முடைய கௌரவத்தை மேலும் இழந்து வெறுப்பை மேலும் சம்பாதித்துக்கொண்டிருக்கிறோம்.

ஆஸ்திரேலியாவில் இனவெறி தாக்குதல்கள் நடப்பதாக நான் நம்பவில்லை. அங்கே உள்ள தாக்குதல்கள் நம்மவர்களின் நாகரீகமில்லாத செயல்களுக்கான எதிர்வினைகளாக இருக்கும் வாய்ப்பு அதிகம். அத்துடன் சிறு திருட்டு நோக்கமும் இருக்கலாம். அதை நம்மவர் எதிர்கொண்ட முறை அந்நாட்டை அவமதிப்பது. அதற்கான எந்த தார்மீக உரிமையும் நமக்கில்லை. ஒரு கௌரவமான சிவில் சமூகமாக நாம் மாறுவதற்கு நம் இளையதலைமுறைக்கு நாம் இன்னமும் பயிற்சி கொடுக்க வேண்டும் என்பதே இந்த போரட்டங்கள் காட்டும் உண்மை[/tscii:534870d13b]

[raagadevan]

Attacks Divide Indians Down Under (From The Hindu)

http://www.hindu.com/2009/07/05/stories/2009070556721600.htm

[irir123]

"India Is Racist, And Happy About It"

http://outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20090629&fname=Cover+Story+%28F%29&sid=4

Very painful to read this truthful article :-(

There is just one observation - the author talks about the indifference to north east. It's similar treatment to "relatively dark skinned" southies as well.

In my many visits to Mumbai, I never felt any coldness despite my lack of Hindi (at that time).

I can't say the same about Delhi, unfortunately. I feel more at home in Detroit (or any American city for that matter) than in Delhi.

Forget Delhi - in Delhi, no matter where you come from, if you stay there long enough, you would become infected with Delhiism, the babu-culture - you will automatically become high-handed, with enormous amounts of rudeness and uncouthness becoming a part of your nature - thats the city's culture brought on by the bureaucrat-babudom over 50 years post-independence - either you got to be a babu, or related to a babu, or a neta, related to a neta, an army guy, or a baniya (businessman) who has strong connections with neta-babu network - Delhi will never change

I still remember in detail my horrowing experience of going all the way to Delhi to find out abt a fellowship I won through merit which took more than a year to be released - no wonder, KB chose Delhi as a backdrop for "Varumaiyin niram sigappu"

[app_engine]

Ofcourse there are so many +ve's to talk about the Indian community in USA.

However, one of the things that we definitely need to improve upon is the driving habits. I'm writing this based on a number of experiences, the recent one this Sat morning when an idiot almost ran over my 3 yr old in the Sams Club parking lot (almost 35 mph, that Sienna fellow was going for his "free tyre rotation"). Typically, no local drivers does this kind of things -especially people are very careful in parking lots, always stop for pedestrians etc.

I'm not sure whether he would have braked had it been a white man with a kid on the parking lot...had he done that, it would have been even worse - niRa veRi combined with rash driving :-(

Though this may sound stereotyping, it's unfortunately 6 years of personal observation that make me write this - Indians are second only to the middle-easterners in horrible driving habits!

Once I had to really struggle to keep up with a new associate while following him to his home. While I'm on one extreme (trying to stick to speed limits as closely as possible), this guy was on the other (even jumping lights). Finally when we reached his home, I made a comment out of irritation on his edgy driving. Funnily, he took it as a compliment, beamingly declaring that he has never got a ticket, knows where kAvalars stand etc :-(

That has been the lingo in general among most Indians i.e. how to escape from the kAvalar, rather than how to drive responsibly...

[Querida]

racism - it cuts both ways - IMO, Indians per se are the most racist! we have caste-based distinctions, in fact, I know relatives, who shamelessly ask about a friend's caste BG when he/she comes visiting etc etc - much worse, Indians who come to the US have this nasty habit of giving nicknames to people of different racial backgrounds in a very derogatory manner

AFAIK, I have not faced any racial abuse whatever anywhere in Europe or in the US - you be nice/polite and dignified with people, then people are gonna be the same with you as well - thats my experience

Irir123, this is exactly my experience as well. In Canada racism is such a frowned upon faux-pas. I have heard enough teachers and profs tsk tsking their predecessors' plundering ways. And proudly denounce the savagery of slavery...but remain quietly shamefaced about the continuing ill treatment of the First Natives here.

When younger I did experience being called paki..but ironically it was other Guyanese/black kids who were doing/encouraging it the most, in their childish attempts to fit in. From what I know most of the people who I have met that are racist are not so admirable themselves. It is in the UK that I have felt the most uncomfortable, even though Indians have established themselves there for ages. Sometimes I feel racism in UK is seen as permissible and people are more afraid to comment on it.

On the other hand I have had debates galore concerning relatives who look their nose down at Indians if they are sri lankan tamil or to stereotype a person according to their caste, religion, or where they are from in SL/India. I cannot even begin to recall the numerous times I have heard "All those (insert racial group) are all (insert derogatory comment/negative trait)"

AFAIK it seems that Islamaphobia is presently the prickly issue here.

[Querida]

Though this may sound stereotyping, it's unfortunately 6 years of personal observation that make me write this - Indians are second only to the middle-easterners in horrible driving habits!


Seriously?? :lol: I have only heard this stereotypical comment bestowed upon people from Oriental Countries, China in particular.

[app_engine]

Though this may sound stereotyping, it's unfortunately 6 years of personal observation that make me write this - Indians are second only to the middle-easterners in horrible driving habits!


Seriously?? :lol: I have only heard this stereotypical comment bestowed upon people from Oriental Countries, China in particular.

One reason could be my limited observation of them (in places I lived & travelled around). However, based on my visit to a # of states, I can confidently say that Dearborn MI has the most horrendous drivers around.

[app_engine]

http://dailythanthi.com/article.asp?NewsID=511259&disdate=9/1/2009

20K Indians became permanent residents in AUS, despite the hue and cry over attacks on students...

[app_engine]

http://dailythanthi.com/article.asp?NewsID=512524&disdate=9/7/2009

இதுவும் ஆஸ்திரேலியா செய்தி தான் :-(

[Sudhaama]

.
.
ANGELISH (British) initiated Claim of SUPERIORITY amongst MULTI HUMAN-RACES...

...as their Birth-right to DOMINATE and RULE over the WHOLE MANKIND of World..!

...Background of latest AUSTRALIAN FANATICISM.... of one JEALOUS Segment of Society.!


...But the Other World-wide Mankind- Races opposed British-claim and DISPROVED.!


As Genocide, Callous Dictator Adolf Hitler... brutally annihilated JEWS, One of the Good-Hearted and WISEST HUMAN-RACES...

...due to JEALOUSY only.!

... despite the Jews' HIGH CONTRIBUTIONS substantially and EMULATIVELY towards the ADVANCEMENT OF GERMANY... then.!


Indian-Race proved LOVABLE by all... because of their RICH participations at LOW COST.!...

...and CO-OPERATIVE FRIENDLY attitude... with Native-Citizens. !

...EVER and EVERYWHERE in the Globe... true to the EXEMPLARY Spirit of Human-Values...!


....Yaadhum Oorae.!!.... Yaavarum Kaelhir.!!!...


....But in Return..? ? ?... RECIPROCATION. ? ? ?



Most of the Indians in India... are aware of One History... taught in Indian Schools...

...the CONCOCTED HISTORY... the British made.!...

..suiting to their Own convenience and Superiority-Complex...

...plus Spreading MUTUAL HATRED amongst the People everywhere in their Empire.!...

...by DIVIDE AND RULE Policy... by FALSE PROPOGANDA on Aryan-Dravidian divide... fanned Religious Fanaticisms and so on.

While the Factual History is different. If we go through the French and German Histories... we can know the Truth.

We may wonder why a German Multifaceted Scholar, Dr. Max Muller praised so highly about the Indian-Race....

...and proved by all aspects that the Indian-Race... so called "Aryan-Race"...

..irrespective of the Castes, Communities and Regions of India...

.... as the FOREMOST ADVANCED by Wisdom and Knowledge.. amongst all other Human-Races...

...and so Indians were cordially invited to domicile in various Overseas Nations..

...because of their HIGH WISDOM and Advanced Knowledge on Human-Values.!

There was NO DRAVIDIAN by Race... although concocted so... by the British History.

Yes. All Indians were Aryans only... as Dr. Ambedkar had agreed...

...and he claimed himself as Aryan.!




"If somebody asks me where the human mind has developed the most, I would surely point towards India......", remarked Max Muller when once inquired as to which race he considered the most progressive of all. True! When the buds of civilization were still sprouting in so many contemporary countries...

...India was at its brim of cultural progress and promotion. Thus we present to you a comprehensive saga of India."

- Max Muller


.
.

[Sudhaama]

.

..

INDIANS are UNIQUE + CONSPICUOUS... amongst all Races in WORLD.! ! !

....How & Why.???.


....Because of INNATE PROPENSITIES... especially HUMAN-VALUES by UNIVERSAL-LOVE plus Empathy,...


..HARDWORKING with DEDICATION to Commitments... FORBEARANCE on all Odds of Circumstances...

..Inborn SELF-DISCIPLINE... boldly Confronting LIFE-CHALLENGES... with ILL-WILL towards NONE.!



Yes. Indian-Heritage taught them...UNVIABLE... PRACTICAL ANSWERS...

...for ALL and every Sensible Question on Life.!

[html:47f743bf21]
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p213/sudhaama/2008/Hub- 35 MAY 2009/Max-muller1.jpg
[/html:47f743bf21]

"If I were to have next birth... I wish to be BORN IN INDIA.!..

..because India is the DIVINE LAND... the HOLIEST amongs all the Global Holy Lands...

..but I do not want to step in that SACRED SOIL... in this Birth.!"

...said One GERMAN MULTI-FACETED SCHOLAR... Dr. Max Muller.


In their OWN INTERESTS... Global Mankind can LEARN Human-Values...

....from the Great INDIAN HERITAGE... the UNVIABLE Total treatise on Human-Life.!



Indians by birth in India... irrespective of Regions, Languages, Castes or any such Sectarian factors... are INNATE with HUMAN-VALUES in general... Because Indian Heritage backed by Ethics and Epics... emphatically teaches the Indian students...

..right from primary School days... on facing the Challenges in Life... coupled with MORAL-VALUES.

No doubt in all other Nations too... such lessons are taught to their primary School students.. But how far indepth on HUMAN-VALUES.?

Whereas by Indian-culture... the primary School Lessons and Stories themselves... right from their TENDER-AGE... instil in their Brains... on the Greatness of Humanity...

..alongside the multi-pronged REALITIES OF LIFE.!... giving a FOREWARNING GUIDANCE on ups and downs, disappointments, competitions, battles etc in Practical-Life.! How.?

One of the Examples of Primary Stories in India... for a Tiny tot... narrated by the Parents, during pre-school days... is the Sparrow-Story...

That a half-grown Sparrow of tender age... ignored her Mothers advice not to part with the Nest during her Mother's absence... and fled away alone stealthily... struggled to fly due to weak half-grown wings.... after several halts, could not return to Nest at night... Sudden heavy downpour of Rains... wings wet... could not fly.... sought shelter and appealed to tree after trees... but all the trees refused to accomodate...

...innocent Baby-sparrow wept bitterly... repeanting on her folly.!... Finally one KIND AND MERCIFUL Banyan Tree invited and offered shelter... as a solace.!... Refuge.!

Alas.! a Sudden storm.!... all other trees who refused to give refuge for the innocent Baby-sparrow... fallen down one after another.!.. while the Banyan tree alone could stand abreast.!...

KEEPING ITS HEAD HIGH.!!.. ROYALLY.!!! ... even under the worst challenge on existence.!...

..the Mother-sparrow searching whole night... finally reaches its baby in the morning.... embraced her baby exhibiting MOTHERLY LOVE. .!

Thought-provoking DEEP LESSONS... sown in the budding Brains.?

And further when the child starts his studies... the primary school teaches the First Lesson.. as அறம் செய விரும்பு (ARHAM SEYA VIRUMBU)...

..meaning... You must [always] WISH to perform Righteous deeds.!

It does not teach... "Perform Righteous deeds.!"... but ONLY WISH to do CONSTANTLY.!... TO START WITH.!

Difference between both... indepth PROFUNDITY.!,,, towards HUMAN-VALUES...

...NAILED IN... FIRMLY... at the TENDER-AGE of Indian-Brains!


Mankind should ESCHEW JEALOUSY and HATRED towards their Human-brethren.!...

....but learn from others.... who are BETTER COMPETENT... and EMULATIVE.!!!

..in their Own COLLECTIVE INTERESTS.!..
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[app_engine]

ஆக மொத்தத்தில் தாங்கள் இங்கே என்ன சொல்ல வருகிறீர்கள்?

கண்டிப்பாக இந்திய ரேஸ் தான் உயர்ந்தது என்றா?

[joe]

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"If I were to have next birth... I wish to be BORN IN INDIA.!..

..because India is the DIVINE LAND... the HOLIEST amongs all the Global Holy Lands...

..but I do not want to step in that SACRED SOIL... in this Birth.!"

...said One GERMAN MULTI-FACETED SCHOLAR... Dr. Max Muller.
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So it should be the old india including Pakistan and Bangaladesh .

So all your glorifications on Indians applicable to present Pakistanis and BangaLadeshis ? :roll:

[Punnaimaran]

Inborn SELF-DISCIPLINE... boldly Confronting LIFE-CHALLENGES... with ILL-WILL towards NONE.!

Yes. Indian-Heritage taught them...UNVIABLE... PRACTICAL ANSWERS...


Wishful thinking????

[rajraj]

Inborn SELF-DISCIPLINE... boldly Confronting LIFE-CHALLENGES... with ILL-WILL towards NONE.!

Yes. Indian-Heritage taught them...UNVIABLE... PRACTICAL ANSWERS...


Wishful thinking????


...with ILL-WILL towards NONE .............except the caste system, a legalized form of discrimination ! :lol:

[Punnaimaran]

:lol:

[Sudhaama]

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- ILL-WILL towards NONE..? ? ?


On Injustice by Kings' DICTATORIAL MIS-INTERPRETATION of the Gospels..


...Was God.... the SILENT SPECTATOR... in India?





Inborn SELF-DISCIPLINE... boldly Confronting LIFE-CHALLENGES... with ILL-WILL towards NONE.!

Yes. Indian-Heritage taught them...UNVIABLE... PRACTICAL ANSWERS...

Wishful thinking????

...with ILL-WILL towards NONE .............except the caste system, a legalized form of discrimination ! :lol:

The INHUMAN Social discrimination on the basis of ones birth... was all MAN-MADE...

..to suit their convenience of DUBIOUS DICTATORSHIP... under the shelter of MISCONSTRUED Gospels

Especially thrust on their own people by one Kalinga King... thousands of years back .

But, God was the SILENT SPECTATOR.?

No. For all such MAN-MADE Interferences on Social Justice to the Common people...

..God gave SEVERE BLOWS AFTER BLOWS... by creating such EXEMPLARY characters... right from such Downrodden communities...

...RAISED THEM HIGH... as EMULATIVE LEADERS in every Sphere...

..especially by several Seers like Tukaram, Kabirdas, Kanakadasa, Nammaazhwar, Thiruppaanh Aazhwar, Thirumangai Aazhwar, Nandanar... Narayana guru (Kerala).. and so on.

...EXEMPLARY for the Whole Mankind... ETERNALLY.!

As also in other fields...

..Thiruvalhlhuvar, Kamban, Auvaiyar for example.

Further God made remarkable Histories to establish the High Sense of HUMAN-VALUES through the Great Acharyas like Sankaracharya, Ramanujacharya, Krishna-Chaithanya and so on.!

Especially Ramanujacharya made Revolutionary SOCIAL-REFORMATIONS too.!.. UN-PARALLELY.!

..UNIMAGINABLE for that era.!

Let those who criticise and DECRY India and Indians... compare with the Heritages of other GREAT Countries.

Glorious Indian Heritage... highly extolled even by Foreigners like Dr. Anniebesant...

..including a GERMAN... Dr Max Muller the Invincible multi-faceted Scholar too.!...

... who never visited India.!
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