CLASS vs MASS

[groucho070]

In Sarath's thread, HR gave an excellent argument on class and mass films and stars associated. Hubber Prabho sugggested a thread on it, since no one has started one, and since the Hub is getting so boring, I thought why not start this. I recall something similar in the past, but what the heck, let's start fresh.

His points intrigued me, being that I am a fan of both and I see qualities in both. Class can be great, but at the same time pretentious and narcissistic. Mass can be great, but at the same time poor and an insult to our intelligence (in my case, semi-literate intelligence).

George Lucas once defended box office mass entertainers saying that it is those film which allows the studios to make small vanity (read Oscar contenders) projects.

What do you think?

Here is HR's point of view (rebutting Jaiganes' view).




Idhe pol Visay kanthum arasiyalil perum vetri petru cinemavukku oru muzhukku poda vendumendrum prarthithukkolgiren.


Jaiganes.. ungalai onnu ketkuraen.. nanga ellam MASS padatha rasikkiravanga... neenga (or ungalai poanravargal) ellam CLASS / nalla yadharthamana cinemavai rasikkiravanga............

appuram yean sir ANBE SIVAM madhiriyana padangalai ellam thoalvi adaya vitteenga.. oru 100 vatti parthurukkalame....... ungalai madhiri classic rasigargal ellam DVD theya theya parthuttu review mattume ezhuthuvanga.......

adhanalathan CLASS nayagargalum MASS padathula nadikkiranga

yedhanal...

1) THIRISOOLAM seyya vendiya nirbandham Sivaji-ku yerpattadhu .. (adhu record breaking BB enru andha thread-la irundhu therinjukittaen) adhukku munala avaru pala nalla padangalla nadichu vetri adanjirunthalum

2) 16 V, aval appadithan........ ippdai nadithu kondirundha kamal yean Sakalakala vallavan panna vendiya nirbandhan yerpattadhu ... ippavum yean comedy padangalai filler's-ah use pannikittu irukkaru

(usd Sivaji & Kamal as examples because compared to their competitors, they are accepted to be class actors by people)

adhanalathan vera threadla, VRidan KANCHIVARAM theaterla partheengalanu kettaen!!!!!!!!

CLASS padathula mattume nadicha oru Hero.. field la nilachu irundhadha TFI history-la kidayadhu

aana CLASS -nu oru padathulayum nadikathavanga nilaithu irundhurukkanga eg: none other than VIJAYAKANTH

adhanala.. MASS pada vetrikku mass nadigargaloda fans karanam... CLASS pada thoalvikku class rasigargale karanam

[Raikkonen]

adhanala.. MASS pada vetrikku mass nadigargaloda fans karanam... CLASS pada thoalvikku class rasigargale karanam

:shock: :notworthy:

simple yet immense point.. Honestu is my dear dhostu...

[Thalafanz]

Innaikku pozhutu pOgalayA pa??? :lol:

[directhit]

HR :bow:

[groucho070]

Innaikku pozhutu pOgalayA pa??? :lol:
Today is Friday, day, day, dey, dey, dey!!!

(okay, I'm kidding, no way I will call you dey) :D

[Nerd]

adhanala.. MASS pada vetrikku mass nadigargaloda fans karanam... CLASS pada thoalvikku class rasigargale karanam


Objection your honor :) Let's make these two assumptions
- Class audience = Multiplex watchers
- Consider TN as the sample space.

Honestly, how many multiplexes are there? < 10. Even if all the class fans watch a class film, its bound to be a flop unless it pleases at least a section of the mass. So the class fans should not be blamed for a class films failure.

OTOH, for a mass film to be a success, it should be liked by all (read fans of other actors too, not just the actor who had acted in that film).

We have way too many examples for both the cases.

[MADDY]

i think times are changing - story/presentations are the real heroes now..........tell me the last blockbuster which was a bad movie but ran only bcos of mass power - 10A(pretty low by kamal standards) and sivaji :huh: ajith vijay have been slapped with flops for selecting "nonworkable/supposedly safe" scripts.......adhe samayam, good stories have a better chance of winning in present scenario........PV had a excellent run, subbipuram, anjaadhey, polladhavan, chennai-28, vennila kabaddi kuzhu(?) were the recent success stories......i think Mass is fading away - even Mass need to be presented in a "class" way to work ex:billa.....

//biggest change has to come from distributors - they should stop deciding sucess of a movie based on script........they shouldnt pressurise producers/directors/heroes on what is a workable script and what is not........they have to stick to their job of distributing films and stop contributing to story..........i'm wondering how bollywood got rid of this annoying distributor menace//

[groucho070]

A point about NT.

NT started doing mass, or straight forward entertainer flicks, way before Tirusoolam. If you read Murali-sar's epic writeups, you will note that K. Balaji was the main factor behind pushing NT towards doing mass flicks.

It was also NT's own personal liking for Hollywood flicks that he did films like Tangga Churanggam (my favourite of his mass flicks) and the massive box office hit Raja.

So, nirbantham-um sollalam, athey time, producers urging, actors indulgence, fans' vendukol, ippadi parpala reasons.

Actors oru pakkam irukkattum. What about directors?

I am now thinking about Mahendran. He was making classics and they did okay, I guess (experts please help me with those films' BO). Then, he did a mass (though it had class elements) with Rajini called Kai Kodukkum Kai, which even had market place, high jumping, fight scene. Am not sure how the film did, but I read (and translated for a magazine) in an interview where Mahendran himself claiming, "athu romba moosamaana padam". Where is Mahendran now? Should he have done more mass films, and alternated with class? Sollunggapaa, sollungga!!!

[directhit]

Nerd, I dont think we can generalize as multiplex audience = class audience. the trend atleast with respect to tamil films have been class audience = dvd audience. Mozhi/Azhagiya theeye thavira cant think of any other exception. Ch 28 class category la varumaanu therla.

its been a case of western movie watchers thrashing the so-called mass movies by 'any' actor with a perception of 'i watch this kinda movies directly implies i am not intelligent' or more a case of 'i declare i like class movies directly implies i am super intelligent' attitude. endha mass movies kkum oru suggestion oru opinion :P

[sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar]

adhanalathan CLASS nayagargalum MASS padathula nadikkiranga

yedhanal...

2) 16 V, aval appadithan........ ippdai nadithu kondirundha kamal yean Sakalakala vallavan panna vendiya nirbandhan yerpattadhu ... ippavum yean comedy padangalai filler's-ah use pannikittu irukkaru



class padangal nallaave odinaalum kamal mass padathil nadithu thaan agavendum. allathu, intha murai kamal nadikkum padam entertainer aaga amainthuvittathu. thatsall. anbesivam flop aanathaan thaan avar VV dasa vil nadithara enna? athu thavaru. next anbe sivam avar virumaandi panninaar. athu class+mass padam thaan.


neeenga mass padangal mattum thaan paarpeengalaa?? appo, perarau ponra kuppayaana directors varuvatharku nengathaan karanam!!!

[Raikkonen]

adhanalathan CLASS nayagargalum MASS padathula nadikkiranga

yedhanal...

2) 16 V, aval appadithan........ ippdai nadithu kondirundha kamal yean Sakalakala vallavan panna vendiya nirbandhan yerpattadhu ... ippavum yean comedy padangalai filler's-ah use pannikittu irukkaru



class padangal nallaave odinaalum kamal mass padathil nadithu thaan agavendum. allathu, intha murai kamal nadikkum padam entertainer aaga amainthuvittathu. thatsall. anbesivam flop aanathaan thaan avar VV dasa vil nadithara enna? athu thavaru. next anbe sivam avar virumaandi panninaar. athu class+mass padam thaan.


neeenga mass padangal mattum thaan paarpeengalaa?? appo, perarau ponra kuppayaana directors varuvatharku nengathaan karanam!!!


aaamang... avaru veru laadu andgoduthasu.. edutha ellam padamum semma floppu... :twisted:

[sakaLAKALAKAlaa Vallavar]

100 kutravaali escape ok but one nirabaraathi punish not ok.

similarly sila class movies flop kooda aagalaam but not even one mediocre move shud be made run!

[Nerd]

Nerd, I dont think we can generalize as multiplex audience = class audience. the trend atleast with respect to tamil films have been class audience = dvd audience. Mozhi/Azhagiya theeye thavira cant think of any other exception. Ch 28 class category la varumaanu therla.

its been a case of western movie watchers thrashing the so-called mass movies by 'any' actor with a perception of 'i watch this kinda movies directly implies i am not intelligent' or more a case of 'i declare i like class movies directly implies i am super intelligent' attitude. endha mass movies kkum oru suggestion oru opinion :P
How many of them are there in TN? In Trichy (being a city and all) for example, you can count the number of pure-class fans. Chennai <> Tamil Nadu and we have numerous B,C centers..

[Raikkonen]

100 kutravaali escape ok but one nirabaraathi punish not ok.

similarly sila class movies flop kooda aagalaam but not even one mediocre move shud be made run!

:lol:

class fansthan mass padathai paathutu nalla pakkam pakkama korai solranga... why don't they just learn. if you don't like it, then don''t watch it...

[Nerd]

So a hit/flop depends upon the number of people actually liking the film. Fans don't come into picture at all (except may be the first week). Thats my point.

And on class fans trashing mass films, well I share your disgust. aanaalum oru limit irukku (applies to all heroes/directors) :lol:

[MADDY]

How many of them are there in TN? In Trichy (being a city and all) for example, you can count the number of pure-class fans. Chennai <> Tamil Nadu and we have numerous B,C centers..

i think we need to define class here.......if i say Mitya, DevD, Omkara then none of our movies can stand :lol2: i think class movies are the ones which stick to a good story more than deviate from it to suit someone's image......mass movies are the ones which have a "safe,tried" story but has excess deviation to suit someone's image....

for me, even vaaranam ayiram is a class movie in tamil............and it recovered its costs with just A centre audience.......poi solla porom(horible remake) is a class movie and it was a hit in multilplex circles........i really feel, people are ready to see the change, industry is hesitant to give it......

[sarna_blr]

i think we need to define class here.......if i say Mitya, DevD, Omkara then none of our movies can stand :lol2:
naanum korean,iran'la irundhu 4 movies pEru sonnEnaa, then Mitya, DevD, Omkara all can't stand'nga :lol2:

Wn we are speaking in Tamil film section, edhukku paalaa pOna bollywood(xerox copy of hollywood :lol2: ) ellaam :twisted:

[bingleguy]

MASS pada vetrikku mass nadigargaloda fans karanam... CLASS pada thoalvikku class rasigargale karanam
Honest Raj ...... :-) just as your name, you wanted to give your honest opinion :), is it ?
moonu mani neram pure Entertainment kku varavanga jAsthiyA ... illa moonu mani neram pAthAlum adhula vishayam irukkanum nnu varavanga jAsthiyA ? :-)

[bingleguy]

<digr>patha vekkireengalE groucho ;-)

[Thalafanz]

moonu mani neram pure Entertainment kku varavanga jAsthiyA ... illa moonu mani neram pAthAlum adhula vishayam irukkanum nnu varavanga jAsthiyA ? :-)

Ethu jaasthinu solla therla. But, nowadays, audiences have fixed perception in their mindset. Speaking of x, Oh, avar padathula kandippA ethAvathu vishayam irukum. OTOH, speaking of y,Oh, ivar padanggal pure entertaining-A irukkum. :)

[VENKIRAJA]

i think we need to define class here.......if i say Mitya, DevD, Omkara then none of our movies can stand :lol2:
naanum korean,iran'la irundhu 4 movies pEru sonnEnaa, then Mitya, DevD, Omkara all can't stand'nga :lol2:

Wn we are speaking in Tamil film section, edhukku paalaa pOna bollywood(xerox copy of hollywood :lol2: ) ellaam :twisted:

No yA. AFAIC DevD, Kadhal. Classic and Eternal sunshine of the spotless mind are all in the same league.
GM: reNdum oNNu thAnE da kozappureengaLE dA!
(ippO engErundhu Class vs. mass-la BW v KW vandhuchu?)

[Anban]

[quote="MADDY"][quote="Nerd"]
for me, even vaaranam ayiram is a class movie in tamil............and it recovered its costs with just A centre audience.......poi solla porom(horible remake) is a class movie and it was a hit in multilplex circles........i really feel, people are ready to see the change, industry is hesitant to give it......[/quote

catchy is not classy..

peterish movies are called as class movies these days :banghead:

examples of class movies.. mahanadi, heyram, anbesivam.. even VV is not a very classy move..

[bingleguy]

moonu mani neram pure Entertainment kku varavanga jAsthiyA ... illa moonu mani neram pAthAlum adhula vishayam irukkanum nnu varavanga jAsthiyA ? :-)

Ethu jaasthinu solla therla. But, nowadays, audiences have fixed perception in their mindset. Speaking of x, Oh, avar padathula kandippA ethAvathu vishayam irukum. OTOH, speaking of y,Oh, ivar padanggal pure entertaining-A irukkum. :)

ah :-) cinemA vil muthirai pathipadhu pondra vishayam :-) :thumbsup:

appo edhirpArpulayE padam pArkkum style varum .... thodarndhu failures kodutha oru director oru nalla padam thideernnu koduthAl ... adai pArkka pAdhi pEr mun vara mAttAnga ..... think of some movies which had late pick up ... the reason being good feedback :-) illayA !?

[groucho070]

<digr>patha vekkireengalE groucho ;-) :D

Thread bayanggaramaa odumnu nenechen, wet fuse ayiduche. Ellam weekend moodla irukkangga pola irukku.

[avven]

<digr>patha vekkireengalE groucho ;-) :D

Thread bayanggaramaa odumnu nenechen, wet fuse ayiduche. Ellam weekend moodla irukkangga pola irukku.

en intha kola veri(vadivelu style-la) :lol: just kidding :D

[Raikkonen]

<digr>patha vekkireengalE groucho ;-) :D

Thread bayanggaramaa odumnu nenechen, wet fuse ayiduche. Ellam weekend moodla irukkangga pola irukku.

class ethu mass etunu yarukum puriyila pola..

[bingleguy]

<digr>patha vekkireengalE groucho ;-) :D

Thread bayanggaramaa odumnu nenechen, wet fuse ayiduche. Ellam weekend moodla irukkangga pola irukku.

ahA .... enna oru nalla intensan :P
oru vELai soodu ethura sila mukkiya kadhApAthirangaL innum varaliyO ennamO ;-) nAn ellam oru nadunilaivAdhi ;-) ennAla soodu ellAm etha mudiyAdhu :P threadkku :P

[bingleguy]

<digr>patha vekkireengalE groucho ;-) :D

Thread bayanggaramaa odumnu nenechen, wet fuse ayiduche. Ellam weekend moodla irukkangga pola irukku.

class ethu mass etunu yarukum puriyila pola..

unmaiyilye ;-)

modhalla CLASS n MASS kku definition kodungappa ;-) oru defining factors illAma discuss eppadi panradhAm ;-)

[Vivasaayi]

Vk is a person who gave some vareity admidst formula movies in 80's.

its hard to classify him as a formula mass hero...he had given some classy entertainers.

[mareen]

HR sonna Mass films'kum ippo iruka mass films'kum romba vitiyasam.

Nowadays, the story is waffer thin. Heriones are there for the sake of it and a side track comedy is also chosen to fill the 3 hour mark.

OTOH, class movies have taken a giant step towards story and prefection, recent examples are VA, Yavarum nalam, Anjathe.

Mass - taken a step backwards with hero's carrying the story in one hand, whilst Class movies have attracted a different audiences altogether especially the ones that know more about other film industries.

Therefore, my assumption is that, there needs to be a mix between the two, if the movie has to succeed. long gone are the days to ultimate sunts and Bags full of punch dialouges. Movies such as Ayan, billa, pattiyal etc has been a hit mainly because of the mix of Class and mass.

[Vivasaayi]

OTOH, class movies have taken a giant step towards story and prefection, recent examples are VA, Yavarum nalam, Anjathe.[/b]



u mean these movies are very ahead of 80's movies?

[mareen]

OTOH, class movies have taken a giant step towards story and prefection, recent examples are VA, Yavarum nalam, Anjathe.[/b]



u mean these movies are very ahead of 80's movies?cant comment on that perfectly as i havent watched many movies that are from the 80's.

[Vivasaayi]

OTOH, class movies have taken a giant step towards story and prefection, recent examples are VA, Yavarum nalam, Anjathe.[/b]



u mean these movies are very ahead of 80's movies?cant comment on that perfectly as i havent watched many movies that are from the 80's.

then how can u say that a giant leap had been taken.. :)

thats why I asked. :)

[mareen]

OTOH, class movies have taken a giant step towards story and prefection, recent examples are VA, Yavarum nalam, Anjathe.[/b]



u mean these movies are very ahead of 80's movies?cant comment on that perfectly as i havent watched many movies that are from the 80's.

then how can u say that a giant leap had been taken.. :)

thats why I asked. :) :lol: oh athha, nowadays there are resonable justifications given to the plot. Not saying the old movies had no justification, But in genral the current movies are much better maybe due to the advance in technology, I would never know.

i was born in late late 80's i would have no idea.

[jaaze]

OTOH, class movies have taken a giant step towards story and prefection, recent examples are VA, Yavarum nalam, Anjathe.[/b]



u mean these movies are very ahead of 80's movies?cant comment on that perfectly as i havent watched many movies that are from the 80's.

then how can u say that a giant leap had been taken.. :)

thats why I asked. :) :lol: oh athha, nowadays there are resonable justifications given to the plot. Not saying the old movies had no justification, But in genral the current movies are much better maybe due to the advance in technology, I would never know.

i was born in late late 80's i would have no idea. i kinda agree with mareen. gone are the days where disguise was just merely a difference of a mole.

just like mareen, I can't comment perfectly on the 80's movies but roughly you can say a lot of have changed, for the better and also some with a negative effect.

[groucho070]

Still line is blurry.

In Hollywood there is arthouse films and then there is mainstream. Then, you have low budget mainstreat, that goes directo to DVD, and may get theatrical release outside of US.

Arthouse are normally lower budgetted,with supposedly good story, or some innovative concept, with supposedly good performance and lot of self-indulgence.

Mainstream films are out there to make big bucks, and they pull no stops to make sure that the flicks are crowd pleaser.

Now, we can't say the same here in TFI.


Classy films has strong storyline, with strong cast, and overall good direction. Mass is like what I mentioned about Hollywood mainstream, except in most occasions, the budget. They are more like direct to DVD flicks the Lalaland produces.

In TFI there are no dedicated, as far as leading stars are concerned, actors to either mass or class. Even VK has done some films that I would say quite classy, like Chathriyan and Tamizhselvam. Early in his career he had appeared in classy films, like Visu's Dowry Kalyanam.

Rajini and Kamal has been alternating from day one, except Rajini has been doing only mass after Talabathi. Sathyaraj too does the same. Same goes to the younger heroes.

I am losing track of what I was trying to say here. Mindla vanthuchu-na ezhuthuren. Damn, now I think this is weak thread.

[jaaze]

Damn, now I think this is weak thread. :notthatway: If properly manoeuvred, it can go on for pages and pages with heated disucssions.

[groucho070]

Damn, now I think this is weak thread. :notthatway: If properly manoeuvred, it can go on for pages and pages with heated disucssions.

Well, I myself can't come out with anything strong. It was fueled by HR's excellent argument, which is also debatable.

Ingga 80s patthi pesinaangga.

Back then, there were no such notion. All films were same, all of them were doing all type of films, no pigeonholing. Suddenly Nayagan happened. Kinda triggered Kamal to do more meaningful stuff, and following year he did Sathya, Unnal Mudiyum Thambi and Soorasamharam - which we saw as good, as opposed to Masala. Good as in, more realism. 3 films did not do as well as expected and I remember reading a weekly saying that Kamal is returning to Masala - which was Apoorva Sahothargal.

Ippo antha padattai paarta, will we say its a mass film? No way, thats one classy production. So, there is a confusion now, what is mass and what is class?

[Vivasaayi]

Not saying the old movies had no justification, But in genral the current movies are much better maybe due to the advance in technology, I would never know.

i was born in late late 80's i would have no idea.

:confused2:

[jaaze]

All films were same, all of them were doing all type of films, no pigeonholing. Suddenly Nayagan happened. enga neenga JKR Nayagan pathi thaan sollureengalonnu nencachen, :lol: until I read Kamal :oops:

[groucho070]

All films were same, all of them were doing all type of films, no pigeonholing. Suddenly Nayagan happened. enga neenga JKR Nayagan pathi thaan sollureengalonnu nencachen, :lol: until I read Kamal :oops: :lol: JKR unnga manusula appadi pathinjirukku?

By the way, JKR in Malaysia is short for Jabatan Kerja Raya - Public Works Department. Chumma oru trivia, time pass-ukku. http://www.jkr.gov.my/index1.php?lang=ENG

[Thalafanz]

All films were same, all of them were doing all type of films, no pigeonholing. Suddenly Nayagan happened. enga neenga JKR Nayagan pathi thaan sollureengalonnu nencachen, :lol: until I read Kamal :oops:

Ithukku unggalukku mannippE kedayAthu... :evil:

[MADDY]

So, there is a confusion now, what is mass and what is class?


class movies are the ones which stick to a good story more than deviate from it to suit someone's image......mass movies are the ones which have a "safe,tried" story but has excess deviation to suit someone's image....

by this i do accept, class movies too have deviations to suit someone's image but still the "conformity to story" wins.......mass movies too have classy stuff but the deviations to suit hero are far more and the base is always a "retold" story or safe/tried script....

now if we can try to align movies with this definition - u'll get the answer :)

[groucho070]

So, there is a confusion now, what is mass and what is class?


class movies are the ones which stick to a good story more than deviate from it to suit someone's image......mass movies are the ones which have a "safe,tried" story but has excess deviation to suit someone's image....

by this i do accept, class movies too have deviations to suit someone's image but still the "conformity to story" wins.......mass movies too have classy stuff but the deviations to suit hero are far more and the base is always a "retold" story or safe/tried script....

now if we can try to align movies with this definition - u'll get the answer :)

Thanks Maddy, I like your explanation.


Mass - star oriented, or surefire tested formula films if with no star.

Class - Service the script, no image interference.

And there can be mass in class, and class in mass. Did I get it right? :D

[MADDY]

Not saying the old movies had no justification, But in genral the current movies are much better maybe due to the advance in technology, I would never know.

i was born in late late 80's i would have no idea.

:confused2:

late 70's and 80's was perhaps the golden period of tamil cinema in terms of directors......just imagine - Bharathiraja, Maniratnam, Mahendran, K.Balachander, Balu mahendra etc were at their creative peaks :)

but 90's saw a huge dip with shankar being the most consistent director of that decade.......so u can imagine the quality of movies that came in 90's.......too many wannabe maniratnams spoiled the scenario......

come 2000, selvaraghavan, bala, ameer, gautam menon(to some extent) succeeded in bringing back some of 80's glory......i think mareen refers to this - movies of 2000's are way better than 90's movies....there is no competition to 80's movies though

[MADDY]

Mass - star oriented, or surefire tested formula films if with no star.

Class - Service the script, no image interference.

And there can be mass in class, and class in mass. Did I get it right? :D

absoleetly :)

[Vivasaayi]

MADDY,
kamal stood tall in 90's

mahanadhi,mmkr,guna,thevar magan,sathileelavathi,hey raam,kurudhi punal,magalir mattum,indian,avvai shanmugi.

in just one decade...even movies like singaravelan were entertaining

[MADDY]

MADDY,
kamal stood tall in 90's

yes, but he was alone and thats the point...

[groucho070]

Yeah, Kamal was alone. Rajini did Talabathi and after that, straight to mass stuff.

90s was a horrid decade for me, both TFI and Hollywood, but I don't deny some good stuff did came out during that decade.

I'd say Barathiraja's Karuthamma was a remarkable film. I don't have much regard for Mani's films after Talabathi, except thank god for ARR. KB gave us Duet, which could have been classier if not for Ramesh Aravind's out of control acting.

What happened to director Agathiyan? One of better directors to come out of that era.

One of the best Mass+class entertainers to come out of 90s - Amaithi Padai.

[Vivasaayi]

90's is also an era of goundamani.

Only next to kamal and rajni interms of crowd pulling..

how many heroes travelled by just being in his side.

[mareen]

Not saying the old movies had no justification, But in genral the current movies are much better maybe due to the advance in technology, I would never know.

i was born in late late 80's i would have no idea.

:confused2:

late 70's and 80's was perhaps the golden period of tamil cinema in terms of directors......just imagine - Bharathiraja, Maniratnam, Mahendran, K.Balachander, Balu mahendra etc were at their creative peaks :)

but 90's saw a huge dip with shankar being the most consistent director of that decade.......so u can imagine the quality of movies that came in 90's.......too many wannabe maniratnams spoiled the scenario......

come 2000, selvaraghavan, bala, ameer, gautam menon(to some extent) succeeded in bringing back some of 80's glory......i think mareen refers to this - movies of 2000's are way better than 90's movies....there is no competition to 80's movies thoughyou put it better than me. 8-)

[Dilbert]

[quote="MADDY"]i think times are changing - story/presentations are the real heroes now..........tell me the last blockbuster which was a bad movie but ran only bcos of mass power - 10A(pretty low by kamal standards) and sivaji :huh: ajith vijay have been slapped with flops for selecting "nonworkable/supposedly safe" scripts.......adhe samayam, good stories have a better chance of winning in present scenario........PV had a excellent run, subbipuram, anjaadhey, polladhavan, chennai-28, vennila kabaddi kuzhu(?) were the recent success stories......i think Mass is fading away - even Mass need to be presented in a "class" way to work ex:billa.....

Maddy.. sir.. eddu.. Class Movies.. Great Scripta? India is one country which is always confused when it comes to movies. its mainly bcoz of the kind of mixed culture we live in..

Even to begin with I have traveled a lot, Other than in India I have not heard in any other country where they separate movies in this movies in to meaningless format of CLASS and MASS.

its unfortunate ,despite of new educated generation .. still some small set of high intelligent brains are trying hard to label award winning movies has class rest as mass etc etc. its just sad state of indian cinema..

Movie is an entertainment medium it will remain the same even after next 100 years as per me there are only 2 categories Good Movies, and Bad Movies.

Every single movie is made, with the intention of pleasing audience now who are those audiences thatz decided by Mindset, Culture,geography,education,etc etc..of the people who wants to see these movies.. period.

Move on !!

[Vivasaayi]

[tscii:8b60f54c46]Dilbert,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_film

An art film (also called an “art cinema”, “art movie”, or in the U.S., an "independent film" or “art house film”) is typically a serious, noncommercial, independently made film or a foreign language film that may have these qualities, but may have been made by a major company in its home territory and achieved popular success. It may thus be aimed at a niche audience, rather than a mass audience,or the use of subtitles in foreign language films may limit audience appeal.

Film critics and film studies scholars typically define an “art film” using a “...canon of films and those formal qualities that mark them as different from mainstream Hollywood films.”

[/tscii:8b60f54c46]

[Dilbert]

[tscii:d973ebbeef]Dilbert,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_film

An art film (also called an “art cinema”, “art movie”, or in the U.S., an "independent film" or “art house film”) is typically a serious, noncommercial, independently made film or a foreign language film that may have these qualities, but may have been made by a major company in its home territory and achieved popular success. It may thus be aimed at a niche audience, rather than a mass audience,or the use of subtitles in foreign language films may limit audience appeal.

Film critics and film studies scholars typically define an “art film” using a “...canon of films and those formal qualities that mark them as different from mainstream Hollywood films.”

[/tscii:d973ebbeef]



art movies or documentry movies are not considered as main stream. we are discussing about main stream movies divided in to Glass :oops: and Mass

[Vivasaayi]

Dilbert ... there are no art movies in Tamil cinema

and thus the classification.

a different term..thats all

[Dilbert]

Dilbert ... there are no art movies in Tamil cinema

and thus the classification.

a different term..thats all

:shock: :roll: :?: i rest my gase

[sarna_blr]

When new Vijay movie got released
MASS rasigargal :- machchaan namma thalapaathy padam'daa, theatre'la paaththEndaa, 4 paattu suuper'aa irukkudaa, 3 fight kalakkal'raa, Vijay summaa pattaya kelappiyirukkaarudaa ....

Class rasigargal :- Vijay padamaa :oops: , padaththa paakkaamalE padam sariyaana mokkai'nu review ellaam ezudhuvaanga or i am a intelligent dakaalti fellow, so Vijay padamellaam paakka maattEn :lol2: and they will lecture like Vijay yEn indha maadhiri padaththulayE nadikkuraap'la

When new Surya movie got released,
MASS rasigargal :- machchaan namma surya padam'daa, theatre'la paaththEndaa, 4 paattu suuper'aa irukkudaa, 3 fight kalakkal'raa, Vijay summaa pattaya kelappiyirukkaarudaa ....

Class rasigargal :- Surya padamaa :) , torrent'la search pannu, padaththa paaru... paaththuttu indha padaththula edhukku surya nadichchaap'la :confused2: pEsaama Vijay'E indha padaththula nadichchirukkalaam

[Vivasaayi]

Dilbert ... there are no art movies in Tamil cinema

and thus the classification.

a different term..thats all

:shock: :roll: :?: i rest my gase

Indiala oru vithiyasaana classification ...unlike other foriegn countries apdinu solla vandhen

if it fits the formula - mass movie(6 songs 3 fight,villian,rape scene,climax fight,mother senti,sister senti)

slightly different from formula with some good storyline - class

but ella padathalayum fight,songslam irukum

[Raikkonen]

When new Vijay movie got released
MASS rasigargal :- machchaan namma thalapaathy padam'daa, theatre'la paaththEndaa, 4 paattu suuper'aa irukkudaa, 3 fight kalakkal'raa, Vijay summaa pattaya kelappiyirukkaarudaa ....

Class rasigargal :- Vijay padamaa :oops: , padaththa paakkaamalE padam sariyaana mokkai'nu review ellaam ezudhuvaanga or i am a intelligent dakaalti fellow, so Vijay padamellaam paakka maattEn :lol2: and they will lecture like Vijay yEn indha maadhiri padaththulayE nadikkuraap'la

When new Surya movie got released,
MASS rasigargal :- machchaan namma surya padam'daa, theatre'la paaththEndaa, 4 paattu suuper'aa irukkudaa, 3 fight kalakkal'raa, Vijay summaa pattaya kelappiyirukkaarudaa ....

Class rasigargal :- Surya padamaa :) , torrent'la search pannu, padaththa paaru... paaththuttu indha padaththula edhukku surya nadichchaap'la :confused2: pEsaama Vijay'E indha padaththula nadichchirukkalaam


:lol:

add one more

college girls: hey he's so hot-deeeeee :lol:

[jaaze]

When new Surya movie got released,
MASS rasigargal :- machchaan namma surya padam'daa, theatre'la paaththEndaa, 4 paattu suuper'aa irukkudaa, 3 fight kalakkal'raa, Vijay summaa pattaya kelappiyirukkaarudaa ....

MASS rasigargalukku surya kooda vijay maathiri thaan therivaarunnu solreengalaa? :lol2:

[sarna_blr]

When new Surya movie got released,
MASS rasigargal :- machchaan namma surya padam'daa, theatre'la paaththEndaa, 4 paattu suuper'aa irukkudaa, 3 fight kalakkal'raa, Vijay summaa pattaya kelappiyirukkaarudaa ....

MASS rasigargalukku surya kooda vijay maathiri thaan therivaarunnu solreengalaa? :lol2:

adhu typo'nga :twisted: copy/paste'la vandha vinai :oops:

[groucho070]

Where's HR?

It is to honour his argument that I started this thread. Captain threadlayum kaanom. Engge poyittaaru?

[jaaze]

Where's HR?

It is to honour his argument that I started this thread. Captain threadlayum kaanom. Engge poyittaaru? Mariyathai padathukku mariyathai selutha poyiruppaaru :P

[Raikkonen]

Where's HR?

It is to honour his argument that I started this thread. Captain threadlayum kaanom. Engge poyittaaru?

yempa nonthu poyirukira samyathula vanthu vampu panreenga :lol:

[groucho070]

Where's HR?

It is to honour his argument that I started this thread. Captain threadlayum kaanom. Engge poyittaaru?

yempa nonthu poyirukira samyathula vanthu vampu panreenga :lol: :lol:

Why Raiks? You think HR would be disappointed with Mariyathai? Nah, whatever fault, he will overlook it and be happy with Captain's double presence.

[Raikkonen]

he was so confident.. :cry: reviews patha apdi teriyile..

[littlemaster1982]

Where's HR?

It is to honour his argument that I started this thread. Captain threadlayum kaanom. Engge poyittaaru?

HR doesnt come to hub during daytime (hub blocked in office).

[groucho070]

HR doesnt come to hub during daytime (hub blocked in office).

Yeah, that I know. He'd pop in during lunch time or update from home or something. But weekend-ilirunthu brother-ai kaanom.

[Sourav]

HR doesnt come to hub during daytime (hub blocked in office).

Yeah, that I know. He'd pop in during lunch time or update from home or something. But weekend-ilirunthu brother-ai kaanom.Engayavathu captain-oda pracharathukku poyittara?

His last post... Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:53 pm

[groucho070]

Star Trek: Search for HR. (cue theme score).

[Plum]

If people are willing to listen to me, let's set a framework to this discussion:
What are the sides here:
By Mass, do you mean movies of actors who have generic dancing, fighting skills, style etc, who can generate a massive opening, irrespective of the quality of the movie? This sort of discussion usually boils down to "my star's movies ALL were hits and even the flops collected more money than the other star's hits". Then, the other star's fan say the same thing but with the order of the stars reversed in that sentence. Essentially, nobody will budge from their position so this discussion will be deja vu and non-conclusive.

So, let's reject this line.
So, no discussion on box office performance of any movie, say.
Now, what? What can we discuss?
Possible lines of discussion:
1. Which actor's movies were watchable for you inspite of the movie's inherent badness, but the actor made it tolerable? Now, the perceptive equanimus has exactly made this point with Surya. We could limit the discussion to why it worked for you, and there can be no argument with that. If you say you could tolerate Alai because of Simbu's "such-and-such" great performance, then so be it. There is no need for me to look down upon it, because what doesnt work for me might well work for you. Question is who does this for you? For groucho, this seems to be maddy while equa seems to tilt towards surya. The discussion here can be enhanced if they can come out and explain exactly how it works for them. As I said, we can simply leave BO statistics out as I guess people are never going to agree on that.
2. Who has shown potential to take on a variety of roles. We could define what we mean by variety - it could be as simple as village vs city slicker or we could define it as ability to invoke different kinds of emotions effectively. Examples will help.

Kadai virikkiraen - koLvaar irukkangala paarkalam :-)

[HonestRaj]

Where's HR?

It is to honour his argument that I started this thread. Captain threadlayum kaanom. Engge poyittaaru?

yempa nonthu poyirukira samyathula vanthu vampu panreenga :lol: :lol:

Why Raiks? You think HR would be disappointed with Mariyathai? Nah, whatever fault, he will overlook it and be happy with Captain's double presence.

:exactly: but inge project panra madhiri padam flop kidayadhu... nitchayam late pick up undu.. (rest in Captain's thread)

Groucho & others .. nan vandhuttaen.. oorukku poyirundhaen... so Friday evening + saturday + sunday = no hubbing.. previously I was using dial up at home .. ippo adhuvum illai

[HonestRaj]

Ippadi oru thread varumnu nan ninaikkalai.. oru post-ku reply pannadhu adhu... (it said..Captain to stop acting)...

ishtam illaina channel-ai mathra madhiri ... pidicha padatha parunga..
indha channel'la.. indha programme-than irukkum... ungalukkaga adha matha mudiyadhu

[Sourav]

ishtam illaina channel-ai mathra madhiri ... pidicha padatha parunga..
indha channel'la.. indha programme-than irukkum... ungalukkaga adha matha mudiyadhuMariyathai-la ithey maathri dialogue yethum varutha? vikraman than tape recorder, recording, tv ellam solli climax-la dialogue vaipparu... :P

[groucho070]

Plum, the answers to your question seemed to be more in Best Actor amongst current generation thread.

[HonestRaj]

ishtam illaina channel-ai mathra madhiri ... pidicha padatha parunga..
indha channel'la.. indha programme-than irukkum... ungalukkaga adha matha mudiyadhuMariyathai-la ithey maathri dialogue yethum varutha? vikraman than tape recorder, recording, tv ellam solli climax-la dialogue vaipparu... :P

aana.. unnai ninaithu climax dialogue.. yadharthamanadhu.. (repair aana machine)

[jaiganes]

dei dei dei - naanum HRum pesikittadhaye oru thread aakiteengale!!!
sare saniyan pogattum
Enoda depinition (I am the guy who sarna quoted as class film rasigar)
I dont believe in Mass-Class differentiation - atleast in Thamizh film industry.
My point with (sample case study).
V sekhar made 'neengalum Hero dhaan', 'Pondaatti sonna kettukanum', 'kaalam maari poachu' and the preachy 'Onnaa irukka kaththukanum' and 'Varavu ettana selavu paththana' - I loved all these movies and he also made the eminently forgettable viralukkeththa veekkam types later. While I appreciate his earlier works in which he had a 'story' or 'something' to say - a burning desire to tell something (It dont matter if he is using almost same settings and techniques), the end product came out splendid - the amalgamation of Gounder comedies with awesome characterisation (I still revisit 'Kaalam Maari poachu' for Vinu chakravarthy and vadivukkarasi's characters offcourse pandiarajan and sangeetha ). Later he got stamped as 'sure success family movie director' and started to 'love his audiences' more than his movies and then started churning out set pieces which did not offer anything new to me. I could see that the movies were being made robotically with no 'feeling', just same characters trying to be funny as audiences expect some funny moments or some characters trying to be 'negative' as audience is wanting it. So now V.Sekhar - once seen as the return of the 'Visu' is now is sitting wondering what to do next. A perarasu's master piece 'Thirupaachi' doesnt even hold a candle light to V.Sekhar's early day flop 'Varavu ettana...' so talking about perarasu's movies as even movies is an insult to movie making - In my opinion, when a movie is made with 'expected audience reaction' in mind then it is bound to be a failure. Movies of actors like Vijay and Ajith to give examples are these days packaged like this and are expectedly biting the dust. If you talk about surya's movies, he almost drew me into thinking that he is taking a different way - but he has flattered to deceive with 'Ayan' - simply because if you take away 'ayan, aaru, thirupaachi, billa, aegan' from Thamih film history - there is no loss and most of these movies do not have any singular point of originality that make a compelling watch the second time - 90s trash can movies atleast had a gounder who made RajTV survive amidst SUNTV. modern 'so called' mass movies fall short in that kind of 'salvagable set pieces of revisitable entertainment'. So net and net - all those mass heroes and their fans, I feel pity for you as your films have nothing to draw a neutral audience like me. The so called 'class' movies on the other hand have their makers create a film not for the sake of it or to proclaim the arrival of next Maniratnam or so - just guys wanting to tell a 'story' much like V.Sekhar in early 90s, but with a little more sophistication and restraint nad luckily they are backed by some awesome producers.
@MAddy - we have discussed the bollywood comparison in another thread. Dev.D though acclaimed it may be, still is not properly watched in the cowbelt and at best is an urban center hit. Subbupuram or PV or any of Bala's movies are much more praiseworthy as they walk the tightrope of drawing everybody into the theatres and make a mark on everyone( positive or negative) without cheapening the content or selling out originality.

[sarna_blr]

Jaiganes :) yeah, neenga solradhu vaasththavam dhaan :D i never got bored by (most of the) V Sekhar's movies even after multiple viewing :yes:
and neenga sonna maththa padangal 2nd viewing'kE bore adikkadhaan seyyudhu :oops:
adhEy nEraththula indha padangalaalayum TFI'ku konjam laabam irukku :P
Kamalhassan needs VRMBS, DASA to give AS, Virumandi,etc

but adhu secondary prachanai :P

primary prachchanai ennanaa, so called class fans'Oda periya alumbudhaanga :rant: ennamO ivanga dhaan periya arivaalinga maadhiriyum, maththavanga ellaam makkaandinga maadhiriyum peter viduradhudhaan :curse:

// and ur definition for class movies :2thumbsup: //

[Nerd]

Dev.D though acclaimed it may be, still is not properly watched in the cowbelt and at best is an urban center hit. Subbupuram or PV or any of Bala's movies are much more praiseworthy as they walk the tightrope of drawing everybody into the theatres and make a mark on everyone( positive or negative) without cheapening the content or selling out originality.
enna solla vareenga? Hey raam pala pEru pArkkalai so adhu nalla padam illai. Kancheevaram yaarumE pArkkalai, adhu padamE illai etc?

How does the viewership affect the quality of a film? (In absolute terms)

[jaiganes]

Jaiganes :) yeah, neenga solradhu vaasththavam dhaan :D i never got bored by (most of the) V Sekhar's movies even after multiple viewing :yes:
and neenga sonna maththa padangal 2nd viewing'kE bore adikkadhaan seyyudhu :oops:
adhEy nEraththula indha padangalaalayum TFI'ku konjam laabam irukku :P
Kamalhassan needs VRMBS, DASA to give AS, Virumandi,etc

but adhu secondary prachanai :P

primary prachchanai ennanaa, so called class fans'Oda periya alumbudhaanga :rant: ennamO ivanga dhaan periya arivaalinga maadhiriyum, maththavanga ellaam makkaandinga maadhiriyum peter viduradhudhaan :curse:

// and ur definition for class movies :2thumbsup: //

namma hubla andha maadhiri yaarum irukkaradhaa theriyalaye? :-)
If Kamal himself has to rely on vassool raja as you say, then thamizh cinema mela hope vekaradhe waste dhaan.
I dont want to be a charu nivedita here, but there is a point when every other director inpired by what Kamal did in 90s is doing something new, Kamal has to look up to Bollywood for inspiration. Thats a bit of a downer.
Coming to class films my grandfather was a film mediator and he used to comment after every screening, 'ore kuttaila oorina mattai' and this was in 1980s. Unfortunately most of the mass films these days are 'OKOM' only.
Only thing new in most of the movies is how to introduce hero in novel ways, what is the latest 'punch dialak', lowest waistline and neckline dress for the heroine and loudest a villain can scream.
If this is innovation that mass movies can manage, then death be to such 'mass movies'.

[groucho070]

namma hubla andha maadhiri yaarum irukkaradhaa theriyalaye? :-)


I feel the same too. Superintelligent hubbers kooda, namma annan Gounder threadla paarkalam. But Gounder is a "class" of his own. All the actors that are favoured here all do mass films too.

[joe]

Climax -la Hero seththaa thaan or tragic climax irunthaa thaan Class movie-nno allathu Tragic Climax irukuRa movies-lam Class movie-nno inge yaarum sollala . :)

Appadinna Thillana Moganambal oru Classic-a irukka mudiyathu :wink:

[jaiganes]

[quote=jaiganes] Dev.D though acclaimed it may be, still is not properly watched in the cowbelt and at best is an urban center hit. Subbupuram or PV or any of Bala's movies are much more praiseworthy as they walk the tightrope of drawing everybody into the theatres and make a mark on everyone( positive or negative) without cheapening the content or selling out originality.
enna solla vareenga? Hey raam pala pEru pArkkalai so adhu nalla padam illai. Kancheevaram yaarumE pArkkalai, adhu padamE illai etc?

Hey ram and Kanchivaram are exceptions nerd. Hey ram was a colossal epic made on many languages and on a huge canvas. Kanchivaram was made exclusively for film festivals like 'Uchchi veyyil'. The maker of 'Hey Ram' was overconfident of pan indian success of the movie, while maker of Kanchivaram was underconfident about the audience. I think there are enough movies which dont fall into either ends of this spectrum which are made in the same commercial playgrounds where villu, shivaji, ghajini are made yet being honest.

[complicateur]

But Gounder is a "class" of his own.
M.A! M.A! Flaasafy! Flaasafy!

[VENKIRAJA]

primary prachchanai ennanaa, so called class fans'Oda periya alumbudhaanga :rant: ennamO ivanga dhaan periya arivaalinga maadhiriyum, maththavanga ellaam makkaandinga maadhiriyum peter viduradhudhaan :curse:

ivLO dhooram vandhutteenga, pEsAma yAr yArai thittuReengannu sollidunga, enna pOchu?

[MADDY]

@MAddy - we have discussed the bollywood comparison in another thread. Dev.D though acclaimed it may be, still is not properly watched in the cowbelt and at best is an urban center hit. Subbupuram or PV or any of Bala's movies are much more praiseworthy as they walk the tightrope of drawing everybody into the theatres and make a mark on everyone( positive or negative) without cheapening the content or selling out originality.

as per u, bringing rural audience in and making a "ok" movie is better than making a classic like DevD.....hmmm ok...

FYI - Naan kadavul made its money in urban centres and was pretty much a damp squib in rural centres - so should i call it a urban movie?

[jaiganes]

@MAddy - we have discussed the bollywood comparison in another thread. Dev.D though acclaimed it may be, still is not properly watched in the cowbelt and at best is an urban center hit. Subbupuram or PV or any of Bala's movies are much more praiseworthy as they walk the tightrope of drawing everybody into the theatres and make a mark on everyone( positive or negative) without cheapening the content or selling out originality.

as per u, bringing rural audience in and making a "ok" movie is better than making a classic like DevD.....hmmm ok...

FYI - Naan kadavul made its money in urban centres and was pretty much a damp squib in rural centres - so should i call it a urban movie?

'Everybody' = 'rural audience'?
I am missing your point Maddy.
Dev.D can be a classic - I have no two opinions about that, but what use of a classic that can be cherished by only 25% of audience. If that is a target audience then lets not hail it as a game changing film for it knew who was going to see and as some one who heavily promoted the movie, I feel that it is a good movie for a section, but wholly removed from most of the audience. It became a hit because the people it catered to became repeat audience and created a 'cult' status. However when you see it as an art reflecting us, made for us - then it is probably at 20000 ft up above. Will it raise the bar and elevate audience taste - I doubt it for the people lapping it up are the ones who loved Rock On, Dil chata hai etc., and their tastes barely make a ripple on the taste of a big mass of film audiences. Whereas PV or lets rewind 24 years back and consider 'Mudhal Mariyadhai' - it was done with a maturity and sophistication and yet totally relatable to the perceived B and C centers, because of movies of Bharathiraja and Mahendran the audience today in Thamizh nadu are ready for the young turks.
I dont know the collection details of Naan Kadavul and to be frank I have not even seen it. If I see it I might not even like it(?!!). Its commercial success in one center or segment is not the yardstick, the point is whom does it try to address? Bala's movies does not preclude itself from any segment of the audience, however a segment abhor his movies like poison while lapping up the irreverence and swear word filled 'New age bollywood' that addresses most trivial of things in society. So where is the contradiction here?

[sarna_blr]

Only thing new in most of the movies is how to introduce hero in novel ways, what is the latest 'punch dialak', lowest waistline and neckline dress for the heroine and loudest a villain can scream.
If this is innovation that mass movies can manage, then death be to such 'mass movies'.
neenga romba telungu padangal paakkureengalOnu mild'a oru doubt :twisted: or perumbaalaana thamizh movies apdidhaanaa :shock:

or ellaamE OKOM :P

[MADDY]

Will it raise the bar and elevate audience taste - I doubt it for the people lapping it up are the ones who loved Rock On, Dil chata hai etc., and their tastes barely make a ripple on the taste of a big mass of film audiences. Whereas PV or lets rewind 24 years back and consider 'Mudhal Mariyadhai' - it was done with a maturity and sophistication and yet totally relatable to the perceived B and C centers, because of movies of Bharathiraja and Mahendran the audience today in Thamizh nadu are ready for the young turks

how does this make it a better movie than other?? :roll: i mean i consider DevD a classic becos of its technical brilliance, music, way it stripped itself of cinematic cliches, layers, strong characterisation, counterpoints etc etc.........and i never said PV or Mudhal mariyadhai were not classics - did i?? i just gave examples of classics and DevD, Omkara(?) were on top of my mind.......that doesent mean i dont consider pV or MM as classics.......

i have a counter to ur arguement that PV, MM raised audience tastes but DevD didnt.....but i think that should come in bolly v kolly discussion.....

[jaiganes]

I am not saying that Dev.D or Omkara were lesser films, just that they dont elevate the taste of a larger mass of audience. It is like they were for a very eclectic set of audience and as far as omkara was concerned, the source material contributed much to the layers you are mentioning.
Mudhal Mariyadhai was a class movie and was appreciated by the eclectic few and enjoyed by everyone. Only such movies in my opinion have the ability to withstand the test of time and bring audience to the next level of appreciation. I guess this is what Eq or PR or Plum say as 'accessible' 'art for people', yet not polluting itself for becoming accessible.

[MADDY]

I am not saying that Dev.D or Omkara were lesser films, just that they dont elevate the taste of a larger mass of audience. It is like they were for a very eclectic set of audience and as far as omkara was concerned, the source material contributed much to the layers you are mentioning.
Mudhal Mariyadhai was a class movie and was appreciated by the eclectic few and enjoyed by everyone. Only such movies in my opinion have the ability to withstand the test of time and bring audience to the next level of appreciation. I guess this is what Eq or PR or Plum say as 'accessible' 'art for people', yet not polluting itself for becoming accessible.

ok, which Hindi movie would you say elevated the audience taste as a whole? tamil movies have that capability because the market is much smaller and sensibilities are pretty much homegenous in nature.......but for hindi movies, the market is much wider , its very complex to lift the standards of a entire country's viewing tastes.......i dont think any hindi movie will fit into ur "accessible" yet "great" movies category.......does that mean there has been never a great hindi movie......neenga solrapadi paatha akira kurusowa kooda has not lifted tastes of entire world

[jaiganes]

I am not saying that Dev.D or Omkara were lesser films, just that they dont elevate the taste of a larger mass of audience. It is like they were for a very eclectic set of audience and as far as omkara was concerned, the source material contributed much to the layers you are mentioning.
Mudhal Mariyadhai was a class movie and was appreciated by the eclectic few and enjoyed by everyone. Only such movies in my opinion have the ability to withstand the test of time and bring audience to the next level of appreciation. I guess this is what Eq or PR or Plum say as 'accessible' 'art for people', yet not polluting itself for becoming accessible.

ok, which Hindi movie would you say elevated the audience taste as a whole? tamil movies have that capability because the market is much smaller and sensibilities are pretty much homegenous in nature.......but for hindi movies, the market is much wider , its very complex to lift the standards of a entire country's viewing tastes.......i dont think any hindi movie will fit into ur "accessible" yet "great" movies category.......does that mean there has been never a great hindi movie......neenga solrapadi paatha akira kurusowa kooda has not lifted tastes of entire world

Guru Dutt's earlier movies to begin with, Mughal - e -Azaam, To be more recent, Ashutosh's movies are good examples (except the Baazi), Masoom by Shekar Kapur, Satya, Company to name a few more in recent times - they retained and intellectual edge, yet were engaging for the masses as well.

[Plum]

Jai, indha vishayathula I am not so sure.Even though the masses lapped up thevar magan, a god number of them totally missed the point as you yourdelf argued eloquently elsewhere. So, thevar magan was a very pleasing cinematically and was a mass succesnu sonnalum, I am not sure if it elevated those masses. I don't think I will take a definitive view here

[jaiganes]

Plum- ella conceitum ellorukkum puriyanum is not a compulsion - padathula engaging chars, screenplay irundhaal adhulaye padathai naan pathuduven. adhukku ulle oru nalla conceit irundhaal adhu bonus. Classic eg Ch-28 - it had good chars and interesting plot points and good prod values - beyond that it did not try to say anything - however in my opinion it is still a classic/trendsetter for Thamizh movies. will it be an alltime classic I donno.

[MADDY]

hmmm, i cant quite agree that ashutosh gowariker's movies are better than Anurag Kashyap's movies.......to me, a good movie "need not" elevate a section of people's taste.......i personally dont think its a filmmaker's responsibility to educate/elevate tastes.......i consider that as a hindrance to his creative powers......i dont care if people neglect a great movie as long it strikes chord with me.......it will stand test of time for me - DevD was a classic for me yesterday, is today and will be 50 yrs later too......

[app_engine]

One area where TF can really be proud about (that too for >3 generations) is that the music it produced had absolute class while also catering to the tastes of masses. KVM-MSV-IR-ARR, these people care nothing about this class-mass differentiation:-) நாங்க க்ளாசாப்போடுவோம், மாஸ் கை தட்டி ரசிக்கும்!

"சேரிக்கும் சேர வேணும், அதுக்கும் பாட்டுப்படி" :-)

[jaiganes]

hmmm, i cant quite agree that ashutosh gowariker's movies are better than Anurag Kashyap's movies.......to me, a good movie "need not" elevate a section of people's taste.......i personally dont think its a filmmaker's responsibility to educate/elevate tastes.......i consider that as a hindrance to his creative powers......i dont care if people neglect a great movie as long it strikes chord with me.......it will stand test of time for me - DevD was a classic for me yesterday, is today and will be 50 yrs later too......
Pls dont misunderstand me- I never said AG's movies are better than AK's movies - hell no.
I just said they are effective in moving the audience and will have a much larger impact in elevating the tastes while not sacrificing the dignity of artistic integrity and are tougher to make as the film maker has to reign himself in every scene with tremendous discipline. Sure we all love picasso - but a Raja Ravi Varma stays in mind and hearts and is celebrated in pooja rooms(for better comparison take Leonardo Da Vinci or michaelangelo). There is a difference, even though they are same art form. There is no comparison in the genius behind the art - just the reach without loss in quality. The movies you mention is cherished and held tightly in memory only by forceful devotion of a few. Among Ajay Devgan's works, overwhelming majority still remember and will continue to remember LOBS more than Omkara. The difference if the point i am trying to make - an accessible art form has more chances of affecting everyone and slowly prepare people for masterpieces like the ones Adoor is churning out.

[Movie Cop]

hmmm, i cant quite agree that ashutosh gowariker's movies are better than Anurag Kashyap's movies.......to me, a good movie "need not" elevate a section of people's taste.......i personally dont think its a filmmaker's responsibility to educate/elevate tastes.......i consider that as a hindrance to his creative powers......i dont care if people neglect a great movie as long it strikes chord with me.......it will stand test of time for me - DevD was a classic for me yesterday, is today and will be 50 yrs later too......
Agree 100% with your comment (in bold)! :thumbsup:

IMHO, movies should be made straight out of ones heart. Bharathiraja's 16V, Mudhal Mariyadhai, Kadalora Kavithaigal etc. to the most recent Aamir Khan's "TZP" are all those movies which were made straight out of one's heart. While watching them you realize that those are really heart felt movies, made with integrity from the creator which makes those movies look more like poetry. Those movies are not meant to up or elevate the tastes of the audience. And that is how it should be. 8-)

[Dilbert]

abbha .. ennum .. indha..theradaku.. puttu podalea?