Psychoanalysis of dignity among 'heroines'

[Plum]

In the context of dignity as a calling card for the 80's actresses, the sociological and psychological contexts of such 'boxing self into a corner' by heroines such as Nadia deserves examination. Here's a summary of random thoughts spread across the forum before...



indha dikkinity matter-ai konjam psychoanalyze paNNa vEndi irukku. appuramaa...


paNNuvOm. Let's just take any other actress from the 90s and see if she wasn't made to look like a bimbo waiting for the wave of approval from the macho hero boy and to be 'reared' by him. Who is the best candidate for the contest?



Politically, I'd argue that Nadhiya should be leading the list though she would also be the most conspicuous entry in it. At a superficial level, she was supposed to represent the modern urban independent woman, but almost all her roles were patently in the child-woman mode; mischievous and cutesy break-the-little-rules type, but ultimately all too pliant. All the middle-class patronage she received (right from the sort of immense appreciation she always received for her "decent" costumes) was, as I see it, a profound reflection of the Victorian-style morality of the middle-class.





I must also add that I find the label "touch-me-not heroines" quite caricatural. We're talking about an industry which stops offering lead roles to an actress because she got married. An industry which insists on labelling actresses either "this way" or "that way." (It is essentially this kind of binary classification that narrows down the "possibilities" in their careers.) It is bleeding obvious that the kind of difficulties an actress would have to face to establish and assert her identity will be much more compared to an actor. So I'm more than a bit wary of slotting an actress as a "touch me not" type, because it could very well be the case that her expectations as an actress were very reasonable.


Discuss!

[Plum]

Particularly in the context of equanimar's this statement:
"So I'm more than a bit wary of slotting an actress as a "touch me not" type, because it could very well be the case that her expectations as an actress were very reasonable.
"
we have two options:
1. Kinda ignore it and go ahead and label as touch me not and discuss anyway
2.Discuss in this context

I am wary of 1 for the reductio-absurdum potential of a simple poll of touch-me-not heroines. Infact, such a discussion almost touched midnite masala range before people pulled themselves back and abandoned it.
For 2, equanimus has to post to kickstart. Doesnt look like he is interested. Conundrum, eh?
compli, PR, yaaravadhu start pannungalen

[groucho070]

Plum, intha dignity antha actresses-ka, illa avingga play pannura characters-ka? :confused2:

Oh, I am just an observer. Neengga taralamaa discuss pannuggga. Lemme get some coke and popcorn.

[equanimus]

Plum, intha dignity antha actresses-ka, illa avingga play pannura characters-ka? :confused2:
Groucho,
I had made that comment originally (elsewhere) and that was in the context of the characters they played. My complaint was about the utter frivolity that surrounds and overarches the archetypal persona of female leads in most Tamil films. One has to understand 'dignified' in the larger sense here (the manner in which they carry themselves off with self-respect, the extent to which there is a kind personality to the character, etc.), not just as a matter of whether they are fine with skin-show or not.

Plum,
The crux of the third comment quoted here is actually somewhat orthogonal to the point of discussion. I was talking more about how actresses constantly get slotted, and way more narrowly than actors, and so on and so forth.

Currently I'm a bit busy with work, so can't actively participate in any impending discussion. thaviravum perusA sollavum edhuvum illai 'nnu ninaikkiREn. :)

[Plum]

The crux of the third comment quoted here is actually somewhat orthogonal to the point of discussion

eq, thats the mental dilemma I had which I opened up in my prev comment. Whether to ignore your orthogonal comment, and go ahead with the original planned discussion, or to abide by it, and start a new one on those lines. Sari, neenga kai kazhuvitteenga - appo I'll have a field day.
(neenga andha comment pottadhulerundhu, nadhia-vai kindal panna romba guilty-a irundhudhu - not the least because I 'get' what you are saying as I had explained in the other thread.)
Kooppudara andha prabhu ram-ai. Nadhiayavai courtle ethidarom.

[Plum]

thaviravum perusA sollavum edhuvum illai 'nnu ninaikkiREn

idhai neenga solla koodadhu, mudiyadhu. Work irukkunu solreenga - nambarom - gnayamana reason, but idhellam selladhu. :-)

[bingleguy]

Plum :-) for the sake of novices in such a psycho-analysis :-) can u trim down the crux of this discussion in simple terms ... :-) have been wondering for quite some time on the thoughts of such heroines - on themselves and viewers .... i may not be an active contributor ... but may be a learning novice :-)
please ...

[Plum]

groucho, neengallam observernu thappikka mudiyadhu. Theme innum sariya form aagalai. Just oru initial thinking aloud pannikittirukken - oru maadhiri form aanavuna contributions expected(still cant forget the snake gag on vijayakumari, neengallam neraiya ezhudhanum)

[bingleguy]

Plum onnumE sollaliyE :roll: oru velai nAn kettadhu thappO :roll:

[Plum]

bg, konjam porumai. Naane epdi idhai simple-a break pandradhunu thinking dhan pannikitturukkean, indha prabhu ram vandhappuram kalandolasithu threadai revamp pannidaren. Polladhavan-la Dhanush & co "out" kitta permission kettuttu police complaint kodukkara maadhiri, equanimarku oru vaaippu koduthuttu(for going in the orthogonal direction) appurama normal direction-la pogalamnu irundhaeen. Avar joot sollittar. Iniikkulla oru maadhir revamp pannidaren thread-ai.

[P_R]

Plum, whichever way I think of it I don't think there can be a meaningful discussion here without a significantly high MPAA rating and without any of the participant talking more than they'd want to. So a fun poll - right down your alley - is what is in order here.

[Anban]

non-existent :yes:

[Plum]

PR. ungalukku adutha post is not very encouraging...sari, en kovanama parakka pogudhu, startidaren...

[Plum]

Prabhu Ram sonnadhu pol, since I must stick to my competence level, idhai oru poll-ave pannidalam.
The discussion was about ultra-pathivratha, touch-me-not heroines. Wait. Dont go off typing your pet hate heroine's name. I am only going to listen to people who articulate their choice here.

The discussion started with Nadia in the center, and she is the right way to explain this context. As equanimus said, there might have been a reason why she had to restrict herself to that image, and stick strongly to that vision. But accepting that takes the fun out of the thread. So, lets comeback to Nadia. Here was a heroine, who just didnt want to do anything remotely classifiable as 'touching business'. We saw how Rahman committed suicide in Nilave Malare after his experience in Anbulla Appa, where Nadia ran out of the first night room just when business could start into her father's hands. She was just...untouchable.

We want to decide who was the queen among these. This being a discussion with a lot of risk of high risque element coming in, we'll have to be very dijiplined and stick to some rules:

1. The heroine must have demonstrated consistent effort to remove any traces of intimacy from scenes involving the character - the last time I started this, the talk veered to heroines who refused to expose or so on. That is not what I am talking about here. It is more about people like Nadia, who even if the character demanded, would so much as refuse to allow the hero touch her hands. I am exaggerating ofcourse, but you can watch the respect and fear in the heroe's eyes when he is acting in duets or slightly proximate scenes with Nadia. She was a terror. Ofcourse, she had her reasons, but it was obvious she was carrying things too prudishly far.

2. The discussion also then veered to heroines, whom the particular Hubber wants to consider only a sister. This is out. This is not about who is attractive and who is not.
3. It is not about whether the heroine wasnt so prudish but hubbers didnt find it, for want of a better word, 'exciting'(yes, I am looking at you, PR!). A demonstrated, reasonably voluble, willingness to play necessary or unnecessary exposure or intimacy automatically disqualifies the candidate from this poll
4. Strict adherence to non-intimacy in most movies, but a willingness to be sensual if required, also disqualifies a candidate. This is where equanimus and I were placing Revathi in the last discussion - very admirably, while refusing unnecessary exposure etc, she did always go as sensual, for again want of better word, as the character required. We are not talking about such candidates, irrespective of
how strict they were about not being as 'free' as their peers.

In short, it is just about over-prudish heroines, who just went beyond the way to maintain a chamarthu homely girl image, and spoiled a movie or two in doing so.
These are the candidates I have thought of so far:
Nadia , the gold standard here.
Bhanumathy - just look at the terror she invokes in MGR almost slapping his hands away when he so much as touches her shoulders in his patented way. I assume none of the hubbers watched Vipranarayana, in which case I'll not talk about that which will ensure she remains in this list.
Suhasini who must be discussed, if only to provoke some hubbers into talking about her telugu films with Chiranjeevi :-). But Suhasini in tamil films did actually maintain that image, so I am going to discuss here because this is clearly an example of what equanimar said about morality, middle class etc. The very fact that she was free in telugu, shows that she was more worried about the victorian middleclass in TN, than any conviction that touching business was wrong. So she is a strong candidate here.
Shalini, just to provoke a discussion, and to ensure Nadia wins :-)

This is a list which is difficult to get names from the post 80's tamil film world. So, idhukku mela thonalai.


RULES
=====
1. Just nominations without excplanations will not be accepted
2. When you nominate, explain the reason why you think the candidate qualifies. Examples involving specific attributes, or from specific films will help add weight to candidature
3. Counter-examples must be provided to remove from list. And that will involve demonstrate willingness to go with the character curve, and be sensual as required. Doesnt mean she should have done explicit scenes.
Idhukku mela pesina edagoodamayidum.

[P_R]

I haven't seen Vipranarayana. But I know the story of Vipranarayana aka thondaradippodi azhwar.

Bhanumathi :shock:

[app_engine]

Shalini disqualified - I cannot even watch some of my musically fav songs of 'alai pAyudhE' at home in youteeb (kAdhal sadugudu / snEgithanE). adi vizhum...

MR / Maddy'kku mattum dhArALam - idhu Ora vanjanai case:-)

[P_R]

app, input vEra output vEra

[jaaze]

Shalini disqualified - I cannot even watch some of my musically fav songs of 'alai pAyudhE' at home in youteeb (kAdhal sadugudu / snEgithanE). adi vizhum...

MR / Maddy'kku mattum dhArALam - idhu Ora vanjanai case:-) alaipayuthe song parthale adi vizhuma :o

appo intha kaalathula vara paattellam paatha kolaye panniduvaangalaa? :lol:

[app_engine]

app, input vEra output vEra

puriyalai...MR / editor sadhi'nnu solreengaLA? :-)

[Plum]

Vipranarayana - in Telugu, that is. Nageshwara Rao was the hero. Sivaji Ganesan played the same role in Tamil, but not in a remake of this film.

There is another discussion waiting to be spawned off from this - some heroines who were over-prudish in Tamil, actually loosened up in telugu. Bhanumathy and Suhasini are examples. Even for relatively looser ones, the degree is always greater in Telugu. Money is usually quoted as the reason for this but thats being so cynical, I guess there is some hint of Victorian england in Tamilnadu in the last century.

But anyway, Vipranarayana shouldnt excuse Bhanumathy - Prabhu Ram, I must find and post your comment on azhagana ponnu naan here. Or, you can repost it.

[app_engine]

alaipayuthe song parthale adi vizhuma :o

appo intha kaalathula vara paattellam paatha kolaye panniduvaangalaa? :lol:

ஹூம்..பிள்ளை குட்டிக்காரன் நிலைமை உங்களுக்குப்புரியுமோ என்னமோ...

'பச்சை நிறமே'க்கு அனுமதி உண்டு...my 3 yr old's fav during meal times...

[jaaze]

ஹூம்..பிள்ளை குட்டிக்காரன் நிலைமை உங்களுக்குப்புரியுமோ என்னமோ...

'பச்சை நிறமே'க்கு அனுமதி உண்டு...my 3 yr old's fav during meal times... I find all songs of Alaipayuthe to be of an acceptable standard for family viewing (maybe Kadhal sadugudu is a slight exception). And Snehithane for its lyrics (that too children won't be able to get any subtle meaning that is hidden in it) Otherwise it's the most family friendly video songs of MR's (post 90's) films.

[app_engine]

Otherwise it's the most family friendly video songs of MR's (post 90's) films.

எப்படிப்பார்த்தாலும் சாலினியை இந்தத்தேர்தலிலிருந்தாவது விடுவிக்க அலை பாயுதே பயன்படும் என்று நினைக்கிறேன்...

[jaaze]

எப்படிப்பார்த்தாலும் சாலினி naditha Alaipayuthe has some of the most family friendly video songs of MR's (post 90's) films. :mrgreen: So I request not to use Alaipayuthe against Shalini :yes:

[app_engine]

கார்த்திகா (பிரபலமான 'அவனை நிறுத்தச்சொல்லு, நான் நிறுத்துறேன்' காட்சியில் வரும் வாய்ப்பைப்பெற்றவர்) இந்த ரகம்..அதிகம் தமிழில் நடிக்கவில்லையென்றாலும், மலையாளத்திலும் இதே ரெபுடேஷன் உள்ளவர்...

[Nerd]

What other movies did she act in? Poovizhi vaasalilE, then? Very expressive eyes, I like.. :P

[complicateur]

Umm... nAyagan! kArthikA was a fixture in MalayALam - ThALavattom, Gandhinagar 2nd street (remade as Annanagar muthal theru), SanmanasuLLavarkku SamAthAnAm (remade with Sivakumar, Amala, Chandrasekar and the multilinguistic wife possessing YGM) etc... She is in 2 PadmarAjan movies - kariyila kAttu pOlE and DeshAdanakkiLi karayariyillA.

[Plum]

Predominant-a mallu-la nadicha heroines kondu vandha kashtam dhaan - parvathy, manju, samyuktha - none of them look like they are going to go to any lenghts to avoid touching. Parametersla cleara irukku.

Note; the winner of the poll is not the most dignified victorianengland-approved actress - it is about unwillingness to aid the film in showing permissible levels of intimacy.

[app_engine]

I think Tamil mags wrote a lot those days about Karthika disallowing co-actors' touching etc, so she is kind of different from the likes of Parvathy who weren't thootrified by tabloids...

[app_engine]

"அத்துமீறிய நடிகருக்குக்கார்த்திகா அடி" என்கிற மாதிரி ஏதோ வாசித்த ஞாபகம்...

[Anban]

alaipayuthe song parthale adi vizhuma :o

appo intha kaalathula vara paattellam paatha kolaye panniduvaangalaa? :lol:

ஹூம்..பிள்ளை குட்டிக்காரன் நிலைமை உங்களுக்குப்புரியுமோ என்னமோ...

'பச்சை நிறமே'க்கு அனுமதி உண்டு...my 3 yr old's fav during meal times... naansense.. my mom didnt allow me to see heyram, bcos the trailer had a kissing scene..

:evil: :twisted:


the same parents will ask us after the "first night", "enna santhosamaa irunthiyaa"

thuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu.. kevalam..



who will bridge the bloody info gap ??

[Anban]

dignity among heroines ...
shalini was dignified in alaipaayuthey IMHO..

maadhavan-a katti pidichaa dignity koranju poyidumaa??

puthiya thathuvam 1012145 !!

[Dilbert]

Plum - Daivame room pootu yooceechi.. thread per veakerengala?? :notworthy:

[groucho070]

groucho, neengallam observernu thappikka mudiyadhu. Theme innum sariya form aagalai.

Yeah, waiting for that. Contenders are too few. Most actresses has transcended that "dignity" circle. Take Padhmini for example, we have always known her for kudumba paanggaana nadippu. But can anyone remember Sangam? Plus, at the time when heroines embrace their heroes with their arms strategically positioned above their err...what is scientifically known as gazoombas, Padhmini just embraced they with her arms around the hero (lucky bugger).

Then you have KRV...who appeared (urgh!) in Swimsuit in one of MGR's film (Tozhilaali-nu nenekkiren). So, Suhasini oda wet-saree romp mathiri ipadi parpala "undignified" moments irunthirukku in these "saivam"istic actresses career.

So, I need clear definition on what exactly we are discussing here.

[Plum]

Groucho, padmini in jis desh mein and mera naam joker; vyjayanthi in sangam - varalaaru miga mukkiyam amaichare :-)
Theme, I thought I wrote down as much as I could without going outright into risque territory. Like the previous threads, the simplistic poll is to give a strand around which to discuss _ the larger interest is to discuss the victorian morality, the double standards and hypocrisies allowed with the focus on tamil society. So, the qualification criteria for candidates is quite wide
1) Suhasini types who, till date take care to maintain the sati image in TN but 'freed' up in other languages. Especially, if yo see her discography in 80's, gummidipoondi thandinavudane, there was a transformation in her. I have included her here precisely to kickstart that discussion. Why the pressure to maintain dignity here but loosen up there? What role did tamil society play in it? Is it that we are tighter than the telugus? Like that...
2)Take bhanumathy - strictly speaking, people can argue for her exclusion given vipranarayana but my interest is what made her make that exception? We don't have definitive answers ofcourse, but that's precisely why I am calling this psychoanalysis, howsoever amateur. Incidentally, a plausible reason I thought of for suhasini's case is contradicted here. So, this is another different mind to analyse...
3. Then the points you brought out - the defence mechanism these poor girls used against marauding heroes bringing in arms as first line of defence, and how a few felt free to break it. If those who broke it were accepted - padmini retained her image inspite of that didn't she - then why and how? Why didn't the tamizh samoogam stamp padmini etc as not chamarthu despite jdmgbh or mnj? What factors went into that acceptance?
4. Then anban cut to an orthogonal but important point - that is also a fascinating discussion to take forward.I am okay with that discussion here.
5.Some heroines start off with that image and then cut loose - amala for instance. What goes into those decisions? Some others actually calculatively - maybe guided by experienced agents - start off with a chamarthu image, and then steadily increase the stakes, which could actually be strategy - in that, your attraction increases depending on how slowly you kind of 'reveal' yourself. Ok, this is a bit crossing the line. But think rambha, she actually started off pothi pothi in uzhavan but exploded later.Well, I find her unattractive anyway, that's a different discussion but at some level, all of us fall prey to the pothi vecha malligai mottu being more attractive. Some actresses actually enhance their appeal by that decision not to reveal - I am sure we all have examples of that at various levels. Playing difficult to get, if you may.
6. Even as I am typing, I got another candidate and a prototype, will type in next post.

[Plum]

Ok, that candidate is a person who went full hog in her first few movies, then had a hit as the archetypal tamil sati savitri, and maintains the latter image to date. So, what forced this transformation - the sheer force of imagination of the electorate, which wishes to see her only in that image, and she is playing along, though she cares two hoots for the moral codes as indicated by the first few movies? Or the first few movies were an aberration forced on her by a greedy agent and/or mother/father etc? Which is the real person here? Note the transformation was extreme which is why it attracts attention.

[groucho070]

Hmm...Savithiri, Savithiri....

Plum, I can see Star Dignity Pt2: The Wrath Of Joe, so watch out.

I have seen her, and remember mostly of her collaboration with NT, so subject matter the characters played require her to have that "dignity". But she was pretty intimate with her roles with Gemini wasn't she. I mean, intimate enough for that time. I can't be sure of these, I've seen too little films with our Sambaar as sole hero. Joe can come in here and fight for Savithiri. In real life, though...Savithiri...whoa!

She was pre-Meryl Streep, when Streep herself at many times reminded me how Savithiri could have been if the moral codes, cultural rigidity, societal pressures were different than.

Hey, waidaminute, Observer romba peesuran. Where are the others?

[crajkumar_be]

Anjanenjan Karthi,
You make an arumayana point :thumbsup:

[Plum]

Groucho, excellent. Neenga observer listleye illai. Participants list dhaan.
Wrath of joe - :-)
Paravaillai - avariyum offend panna vendaama?
Savithri is up for discussion, folks!

[Anban]

Anjanenjan Karthi,
You make an arumayana point :thumbsup: i have more complaints abt all our parents..

neengalum poruppaa nadanthukkonga.. :)

[crajkumar_be]

Amaam amaam!

[Plum]

Revive. Groucho vaaya pudunga neraiya matter irukku pOla

[AudazJay]

90's heroines Sangeetha (Poove Unakaga fame) and Suvalakshmi would probably fit the bill as well.
Although Suvalakshmi was a little more flexible in Aasai, but I felt that she was generally trying too hard to establish the "extremely decent actress" images in most of her films.
OTOH, I can't remember any films where Sangeetha had any up-close and personal scenes with her heroes. Then again, I can never be so sure (especially not after hearing about Suhashini).

[sathya_1979]

Kousalya???

[groucho070]

Revive. Groucho vaaya pudunga neraiya matter irukku pOla
At home internet down. Only phone access. Nalaikku varen.

[AravindMano]

90's heroines Sangeetha (Poove Unakaga fame) and Suvalakshmi would probably fit the bill as well.
Although Suvalakshmi was a little more flexible in Aasai, but I felt that she was generally trying too hard to establish the "extremely decent actress" images in most of her films.
OTOH, I can't remember any films where Sangeetha had any up-close and personal scenes with her heroes. Then again, I can never be so sure (especially not after hearing about Suhashini).

:lol:

When I was in college, I have heard about some of her popular flexible-O flexible videos. AdhukkapRam avanga homely actress, satyajit ray find appadingRa idea-vE enakku suththamA pOyiduchu.

In 'Manisha Manisha' song of NinaiththEn vandhAi, Vijay gives a reaction on seeing Sangeetha'a photograph. andha reactionkum indha thread-kum kaNdippA edhO sambandham irukkumnu ninaikREn.