Raja's rhythms

[jaiganes]

Was listening to 'How to name it ' umpteenth time..
Suddenly observed one small thing..
The drums and mrudangams.
They never play together in any of the songs.
Even in the crazier Raja mixes - I couldnt observe mridangam with drums or any other western percussion in Raja's songs. Tabla and drums - yes, thavil and drums - yes. but mrudangam and drums - no. any reasons? Arun - do you have any pointers on this?
I was amazed by your playing and general percussion arrangement in uLiyin Osai.
How does Raja instruct percussion players?
Does he give notes/sheets to them as well or does he sit with them seperately and tune their playing to the song's needs as he does in the mayilu song session shown on TV?

[complicateur]

Jai,
Do add the Bongo/Conga combination to the poll. My vote would undeniably have to be for their usage.

[jaiganes]

how do I d that?

[complicateur]

I'm not sure. You might need the assistance of a moderator.

[Sureshs65]

Jai,

I think there are many songs in which Raja has used the mridangam with western rhythm but as usual he melds it so well that it doesn't seem so to many. The two most famous songs which have mridangam beats with western rhythm are 'Andhi Mazhai' and 'Poonkadave'!! In both these cases he uses the right side of the mridangam or the side with the black spot more to get the sharp sound. The toppi part is not used much.

Arun can definitely tell us more.

[Sureshs65]

Infact to me one of the predominant rhythmic sound of Raja of the 80s which made his music so different was this use of mridangam with the western rhythm. I can't think of all the songs but some which come to my mind immediately are from Malayalam films, "Alli Elam Poove" has the combination. So does the Pallavi of 'Tanal Virikkan' (a combination of western rhythm, a few taps of mridangam and tabla), another which starts something like 'Talitezyudiya' (It also came into Tamil later). Another quite popular songs which has the western cum mridangam arrangement is Poo Malarindida from Tik Tik Tik.

[kiru]

I think tabla was the only one used alone. All other rhythm instruments were used in combination. The western drum kit was always/mostly used with the congas. My favorite combo is western drums+mridhangam (another example is in alaigal oyvathillai). Mridhangam used alone (eg sippikkul muthu)is my next favorite instrument. Tabla has been exposed a lot, not just me, the whole audience took an aversion to it, I think. Tabla and flute or Raaja is like western drums + lead guitar to a rock musician.

[Sureshs65]

kiru,

While I do agree there has been lot of tabla usage by Raja, it has also been combined with other rhythmic instruments as well. In recent years, the tabla usage has been greatly reduced, except in places where is makes good sense as in 'Sivoham'. I feel Raja used the tabla for two reasons. One, it does give a local flavor to the songs. Secondly, the table gives a good steady background for the vocalist to take on more complex compositions. For example, in many songs, you will clearly hear the tabla giving a constant beat of say a tisram, like ta-ki-ta while the singer may be singing in a different rhythm, say the standard 4x4 or chatusram. This gives some tension to the song. This also helps the song's pallavi or charanam to have different takeoff points. Too much of rhythmic complication would have made it a nightmare for the singer. That was during the time when live recordings were happening. Nowadays I don't think that is a problem. From what I hear, no singer knows what rhythm will finally come on the CD!!

The mixing of two nadais or gaits (one of the singer and one of the rhythm) and the different take off points are two important aspects of Raja that you don't tired of his songs. I have heard lot of old Hindi songs where I get tired after a few listens since the beat is very constant and the song starts on the beat and there is absolutely no tension. Same happens in the case of many modern songs. While the loops may be attractive at first, after a few listens, due to lack of any tension, you get very bored.

Added to what I said, Raja also introduces a lot of asymmetry in his compositions. In the sense that two lines would go for the whole eight beat cycle while one line may go for only 7 beats and so on. Again, a source of musical tension and breaks the monotony. My feeling is that if you hear the tabla songs of Raja closely you can get an idea of how is mind works. To some extent atleast. This is an aspect which I discovered recently and whenever I hear a Raja song now I have started following the rhythm more closely. Will post if I find something interesting.

[Plum]

Anumanaspadam's Prathidinam Nee Darshanam, whose cause has been much championed by me here before, answers to the mridangam-drums combo raised by jai here.

[crajkumar_be]

Jai
Acoustic Drums + Mridangam playing together - "Ada macham" (Chinna Veedu)

What about "Pudhiya poovidhu poothadhu"? (Mridangam-a nu doubt a irukku, the two "chops" in the pallavi)

[Sureshs65]

Plum,

"Pratidinam" came to my mind as soon as I posted the second time. Did not want to post too many times :) Yup, excellent song and excellent orchestration.

[Sureshs65]

CR,

That sounds like tabla beats to me. Sounds like the smaller one of the tablas with the black spot. Dont know what they call that. Anyway thanks for making me hear this song again. What an opening bass line!!!

[complicateur]

What about "Pudhiya poovidhu poothadhu"? (Mridangam-a nu doubt a irukku, the two "chops" in the pallavi)
Pudhiya poovidhu poothadhu (http://complicateur.blogspot.com/2008/08/slices-of-raja-4.html)

[Sureshs65]

Nice writeup Compli.

[jaiganes]

Mrudangam has a lower amplitude compared to an acoustic drum or a snare drum. I felt that Raja consciously allows a special space for 'Mrudangam' accoustically more than the drums and tabla. Also does he record the sound of a particular instrument in a modified amplitude for sake of clarity?
Another question - Does Om shivoham have mrudangam sounds in it?
Ah one more question - what is the name of the indian percussion instrument that comes in 'Andhi mazhai megam' the one where the rhythm is played like 'jalatharangam' before the orchestra joins in the interludes? Is it an array of tablas?

[thamizhvaanan]

Ah one more question - what is the name of the indian percussion instrument that comes in 'Andhi mazhai megam' the one where the rhythm is played like 'jalatharangam' before the orchestra joins in the interludes? Is it an array of tablas?

:yes:

[Sureshs65]

I don't think there is any mridangam in 'Om Sivoham' song. It is tabla, udukkai and some other instrument. Also the metal part of the western drums and cymbals. And yes, the initial part of 'Andhi Mazhai Megam' has multiple tablas.

A funny and funky way to use mridagam, which substitutes for every kind of rhythm in this fun song, 'Keerthana arambathiley' from Inimey Nangathan: http://www.thiraipaadal.com/albums/ALBIRR00202.html

Amazing imagination. It is difficult to imagine that only one mridangam is used throughout.

[irir123]

another monster of a song interms of polyphonic percussion usagem - "paadum vaanambaadi" from nan paadum paadal - astounding!

[Sureshs65]

Absolutely with you on that one irir123. Superb song.

[dakaltiz]

O Vasantha Raaja....What a Beauty it is !!! Polyphonic Rhythm at its best....
Prelude starts off with cymbals and Heavy Drums....
When pallavi starts ...astounding Mirudhangam and Bongos\Congo arragement...
First interlude...Guess its an array of tablas + mirundhangam...Listen to the end of the interlude...a table beat falls for each note..amazing...
First Charaam ...Tabla\Mirudhangam again...
When the pallavi starts again...the pattern during the start of pallavi is repeated...but now congo beat is replaced with Tabla (or is it mirudhngam) I guess..
Well second interlude...you are just taken for a ride with acoustic drums...and that guitar solo beauty...drums continue till the second stanza...
In the end itz like coming to an end of an roller-coaster ride...

Pure Rhythmic Bliss!!

[Sureshs65]

More than anything else, what I miss in Raja's music is the sound of the hard mridangam taps along with the western drums. That is one reason that I love Pratidinam.

[ananth222]

My favorite is mridangam, sparingly used by Raaja but created some masterpieces, such as "andhi mazhai", and check out the mridangam in "alaipayudhe kanna" from "Ethanai konam ethanai paarvai" esp. towards the ending.. brilliant!

[Plum]

sureshs65, yes, yes yes. Prathidinam is a overlooked masterpiece, I say.

[crajkumar_be]

CR,

That sounds like tabla beats to me. Sounds like the smaller one of the tablas with the black spot. Dont know what they call that. Anyway thanks for making me hear this song again. What an opening bass line!!!





Pudhiya poovidhu poothadhu (http://complicateur.blogspot.com/2008/08/slices-of-raja-4.html)

Thanks guys!

[crajkumar_be]

another monster of a song interms of polyphonic percussion usagem - "paadum vaanambaadi" from nan paadum paadal - astounding!
:yes:
Thumping percussion and bass lines and SPB providing a layer of bass with his voice - kind of 3 bass effect. Lovely strings in the ludes apart from the percussion. Yes, astounding

Gowrimanohari raagam?

[crajkumar_be]

Suresh/Plum,
Any link for prathidinam please..?

[Sureshs65]

CR,

Here is a link http://mastmusic4u.com/?p=711

'Pratidinam' is a reworking of 'Mayanginen Solla Tayanginen' but the reworked version is as good, if not better, than the original.

[crajkumar_be]

Mikka nandri Suresh :)

IMO, better than the original!

[thumburu]

"paadum vaanambadi" is a good example of innovative percussion with bass . I love the flute passage in the interludes too. Gowrimanohari scale ofcourse.
I wish to point out the song "enge enge" , an SJ solo from :"Iniya uravu poothadhu" where the unexpected introduction of tabla in the charanam and 2nd interlude adds a lot of grace to the otherwise breezy , peppy song with drum rythm . Those days, the drum beats for the very carnatic tune [ "Karaharapriya" ragam] "maapiLLaikku maaman manasu" from the movie "NetrikaNN" was considered path breaking. In the same Karaharapriya ragam, Raja beautifully integrates western style rythm with classical mridhangam in the song "poo malarndhida" from the film "tick**3"

[Sureshs65]

Jai,

A couple of not so well known Mallu songs that I was hearing recently which have this combination of mridangam with western beats. One is 'Nadaswaram Kaeto' from 'Ponmudipuzhayorathu'. It has nice rhythmic patterns but I don't believe it was as big a hit as 'Oru Chiri Kandal'. Still you can listen to it for the initial beats and the lovely mridangam beats that suddenly appear when the charanam is about to end.

The other song is 'Chella Tatte' from 'Manasinnakkare'. I think this is probably the least heard song from this movie and I must confess I used to skip this song often. Of late I have been hearing this song and there is a lovely mridangam and synth drums combination in the second interlude. Very well done stuff.

[jaiganes]

Another gem where mridhangam and synth drums were played together was 'siru siru siragugalil' from the much maligned konji pesalaam.

[app_engine]

IR's early numbers had phenomenal experimentations...one example is 'garjanai' - each song will have a lovely rhythm pattern (oru ooril oru maharAni, vandhadhu nalladhu nalla idam, varuvAi anbE all had distinct and catchy rhythms hitherto unheard)

[Sureshs65]

Usha had posted the Moodupani English song in the IR Song of the day thread. What a lovely rhythm that song has !!

[crajkumar_be]

Usha had posted the Moodupani English song in the IR Song of the day thread. What a lovely rhythm that song has !!
All,
Please check the song out. Haven't heard anything like it. Difficult to slot it under any rigid genre, as always

[complicateur]

Thapu thakilu mELam from Manjeeradhwani (http://www.musicindiaonline.com/music/malayalam/s/movie_name.3517/). I'm quite at a loss for words at the complexity of the pattern.

[rajkumarc]

Very interesting thread. The discussions on usage of mridhangam with western percussions caught my attention. I wanted to chip in with Raaja's very unusual usage of mridhangam (atleast to my knowledge) in a suspenseful situation.

It's title score of the 80s thriller "Nooraavadhu Naal". There comes a solo mridhangam out of nowhere and very much increases the overall effect.

Don't know to desribe it any better. I haven't heard a similar usage of mridhangam anywhere by anyone.

You can listen to the title score here - http://music.cooltoad.com/music/song.php?id=422623

[tvsankar]

compli,
Thanks for thapu thakilu

[jaiganes]

As for using midhangam in some freaky unusual circumstances, liked the way Rasappu used Mridhangam in Guru (kamal movie) theme music - that is one of the coolest super hero theme music i have heard - very signature is turned indian by the groovy mridhangam. Does anyone have that piece somewhere for download?

[crajkumar_be]

Jai,
One splendid example for your original kostin:
"Kavidhai Kelungal" - Punnagai Mannan

When the drum groove takes on, i think there's a wah-wah riff repeating along with the bass lines. Superb!

[jaiganes]

sometimes he tunes for that mridangam or tabla in BGMs that conveys a bit of shruthi as well jadhi that it gets blurred. In a dicey situation he has used tabla to put in an extra throw and convey a delicate sense . not loud - but light and stretched that extra bit to suggest someting... I am trying to recollect exact piece that does this...

[crajkumar_be]

sometimes he tunes for that mridangam or tabla in BGMs that conveys a bit of shruthi as well jadhi that it gets blurred. In a dicey situation he has used tabla to put in an extra throw and convey a delicate sense . not loud - but light and stretched that extra bit to suggest someting... I am trying to recollect exact piece that does this...
Thevar Magan: Thalaivar and Anni coming home after the welcome dance at the station - Nadigar Thilagam "welcoming" them - Is this an example of what you had in mind?

[jaiganes]

sometimes he tunes for that mridangam or tabla in BGMs that conveys a bit of shruthi as well jadhi that it gets blurred. In a dicey situation he has used tabla to put in an extra throw and convey a delicate sense . not loud - but light and stretched that extra bit to suggest someting... I am trying to recollect exact piece that does this...
Thevar Magan: Thalaivar and Anni coming home after the welcome dance at the station - Nadigar Thilagam "welcoming" them - Is this an example of what you had in mind?

Yess! that one plus some scenes in Nayagan and mouna ragam too... I will have to watch them closely again., but the mood is somewhat what you get when you hear the tabla play in 'Muthu mani maalai' song in chinna kounder. Oru vidhamaana 'nazhuval' adhigama sonna konjam rasaabaasama irukkumonnu, underscore, but not bold - konjam puriyara maadhiriyum puriyaadha maadhiriyum irukkulla - meesik comprehensionukku ettra dhoorathilum ettaadha dhoorathilum irukkum boadhu varra feelinge thani dhaan!!

[raajarasigan]

Oru vidhamaana 'nazhuval' adhigama sonna konjam rasaabaasama irukkumonnu, underscore, but not bold - konjam puriyara maadhiriyum puriyaadha maadhiriyum irukkulla - meesik comprehensionukku ettra dhoorathilum ettaadha dhoorathilum irukkum boadhu varra feelinge thani dhaan!!

eppadi.. fulla sarakaadichittu kothu vutta, vaandhi vara maadhiri irukkum aana varadhu andha maadhiriya... (courtesy: Polladhavan)

just kidding... :-)

<End digression>

[jaiganes]

jokes apart - Agni Nakshathram - use of tabla in BGM is what I am referring to

[Plum]

Ghanshyama from kochu kochu santhoshangaL
Starts with tabla, freaky frequent rhythm changes - though the synth drums(?) Are ordinary - initial portions symmetrically alternate between tabla and drumm kit. Then some freaky use of mridangam and kottu(?) Culminating in an ecstatic piece of mridangam, tabla and drums together - beyond words. AnubavikkaNum - aaraya mudiyalai!

[crajkumar_be]

jokes apart - Agni Nakshathram - use of tabla in BGM is what I am referring to

//Dig: Talkin about AN, just happened to revisit the 1st half a couple of days back. Initial scenes, punctuated by mere silence and the "clash" percussion theme. Perfect for the theme and build up. BGM na mottai dhaan...