Re-analysis of IR post 2000

[Hulkster]

I would like IR "fans" to describe what they meant lost hope on IR after the 2000s. Exactly what are the albums that caused you to lose hope, lets see if it is viable or just you guys not liking it personally. This is just to see whether fans really evaluate IR's music properly before saying such stuff. :exactly:

[rajasaranam]

Hulkster,

Its better you substantiate your questions with valid and remarkable songs/albums from IR Post 2000 :) otherwise 'Such' fans will be inclined in maligning Raaja without any base.

[Hulkster]

Well instead of naming the albums, I rather ask them to come forward with the albums cause i would like to see what they mean. It really gets irritating. If IR was "dead" post 2000 then could anyone explain how i managed to become a hardcore fan of IR when i started listening to him in 200/5 and that from movies like konji pesalam,mumbai express and so on and so forth. This is a challenge to prove the albums they think are worthless and makes IR go back to the "grave".

[irir123]

In my observation, I see only one general trend post-2000 - a distinct lack of motivation to give something creative in IR's output!

There were a few gems like "thalaatum kaatre"(Devan), the Mumbai Xpress album, the stunner TiS album and maybe a few more - but overall I see IR doing 'eno-dhaano' kind of stuff

His interludes have become increasingly plastic - for instance, until the early 1990s, he was using creative motifs even while using synth stuff minimally - take the interludes in the song 'en uyire vaa' as an example - last few years, the interludes are getting shorter but also lacking the imaginative flow richly found in IR's earlier songs

Even the songs of Nandhalala had nothing to write about in terms of the interludes - IR seemd to have focussed on the tunes without paying too much attention to the ludes - donno why he is doing it

plus, his compositions seem to have a deja vu feel to them

But having said all of this, 2009 seems to have brought something out of him - I have hopes from him this year

Inspite of this, as Vignesh has perfectly zeroed in on one issue, if IR puts all his efforts and comes up with a winner, but fails to package it nicely (i.e., does not market it well), its commercial success and reach may not be viable, which could reflect on his motivation to do better albums - but then that line of thinking might be outside the scope of this thread

[Hulkster]

It is true that IR songs have a little bit of dejavu post 2005 to be exact starting from kasturi maan till maybe kangalum kavipaaduthey(Had some nice bass lines in sollumvarai kadhal and a excellent guitar prelude in maalai nila).

While its true interludes are getting shorter,that may be because of IR focussing on the songs matching the screenplay unlike last time when he would go full flow in the songs. Let us remember that post 1996 IR decided to specially focus on films with good storylines and he has been slowly adhering to that policy with well structured songs.Nandalala is a strong evidence of this.

As for the interludes become plastic i recommend you all to listen to madhu. It may be synth-prominent but it is still wonderful to hear the arrangements. Dhanam had excellent interludes in the songs as well and totally reeks of experimentation. En mana vaalil had one song with spellbinding orchestration.

In fact of all the albums that i have heard so far the one uncharacteristic album would go to chidambarathil oru appasaamy, but even that had a couple of good tunes in nalla vaazhvil and ponna porantha intha paavam with subtle orchestration. Mayakannaadi songs is another underrated version.

I guess people here are becoming unbalanced by the recording style of today's modern songs and become "irritated" when they listen back to IR songs. They fail to even understand the nuances of his songs(the worst mistake a IR fan can make) and overthrow them just because the tunes aint the best(which is appalling as IR is extremely famous for enhancing his songs with his background instrumentation, almost a genre by itself).

The evidence that all these albums are quite good is because i myself became a Hardcore fan of IR after listening to all these ludes in madhu.en mana vaalil, mumbai express, adhu oru kanaa kalaam etc. I still wonder how he does the marathi rhythm combining it with jazz in yeley nee yetti po and the unforgettable percussion dance in muthu muthu. Anyone dares to explain how all these things are supposed to be "dead" when i can get spellbound by these?

[irir123]

Hulkster - interesting points, but let me tell you this - IR did an album called GURU, n that album set a high standard and expectations from fans like me - not IR's fault though!

and after that there was no way we cud accept anything substandard from him - no doubt he gave a hey ram a mumbai xpress and of course TiS, but somehow he messes up with either his arrangements when it came to synth stuff or something is wrong somewhere - even the percussions dont sound deep - the synth drums he uses r so hollow n irritating - and is it tat he is not using the diverse set of ragas he used to before, n hence the feeling of deja vu - is he repeating some raaga ? for example "chanda mama raave" from mallepooviu sounds similar to "kallai irundhen" from Uliyin osai!

cheeni kum(the sound of real percussion in the second interlude of 'baatein hawa'), mumbai xpress all had real percussion effect, but by n large, IR edhayyo engeyo kottai vittuttaar!

i think the real problem with IR's outputs thse days, is tat he is associating with the wrong ppl - releasin his albums thru all kinds of strange labels

by n large, having set standards like he did before, it luks like IR is simply demotivated to reach those standards again

[ananth222]

by n large, having set standards like he did before, it luks like IR is simply demotivated to reach those standards again
I've been listening to IR's old collection of lesser known films.. IR used to do about 40 movies a year. These included excellent hits, some memorable ones, and some totally forgettable ones - this was in even the 80s at his peak. Even among the hits, different people would vouch for different movies - someone might hate a movie/song I liked. IRs strength is his variety in sounds and style, so there are bound to be hits and misses. By the same count, some of his recent movies were good, some were misses. its just that hes doing fewer movies so fewer hits.
It is a totally encouraging sign that ppl who liked UO didn't like NK or NL or vice versa - it means IR is back to his strength of providing variety. 5 years later, we will only be talking about the memorable tunes.
IMO if you take the ratio of "spell binding songs" to "total songs composed" in the period post 2000, it wouldn't be very different from the same ratio in the 80s. (of course based on your own idea of "spell binding")

[Hulkster]

The fact remains that as fans we should not expect every album to be like GURU, it really depends on the film IR is doing. Its quite astounding that he can still produce magic for whatever situation he was given to compose.

The thing is even if IR scores 10 magnificent Inetk-300 word albums in a row, we all know he can achieve this as he has proven before. Question marks over his talent and class are the worst sort of reaction i expected from IR fans themselves. Even IR has said he has achieved all he wanted to do in FILM music way before ARR came in.

As for chanda mama raave, it isnt exactly like kallai irunthen as although the familiar haunting feel is there, the overall instrumentation(Piano magic) gives us a different mood. I could still listen to it over and over again just for that orchestrational brilliance. This is certainly no waning artist.

Demotivated, Not aligning himself is the familiar grouses of today's IR fans. I wonder if they know that the man himself is just not interested in promoting himself. As i said before he will only do if he thinks there is a challenge for his composing extraordinaire. Not for the sake of marketing himself. He does have alot of ideas about various forms of music but he at the same time is one who hates promoting music(Mallepoovu post-audio release interview speech). To convince him we must not tell him "Sir we want you to be known all over the world" but rather "Sir we want to hear what you can do with x genre and fuse it with y genre".
There must be a purpose like the angelica musica festival which gave its returns to needy people.

[kiru]

Recently, I came across a IR hits CD in my stash and played it in my car with the bass and treble turned all the way up. I got a very vague feeling of deja vu. Pardon the affront, if you take it that way, it all sounded like Rahman songs. And these songs are iconic hits of IR. These songs were infectiously rhythmic and groovy. THe rhtymic texture is maintained throughtout the pallavi/charanam, if not in the interlude itself.
Below is the list of songs and what I feel is the major rhythm component -
1. Germaniyin - bass line
2. kaadhal oviyam - bass line
3. puththam pudhu kaalai - loop/groove (notice the chalangai metronome)
4. meen kodi thEril - bass (?) + loop
5. andhi mazhai - bass
6. iLamai enum poongARRu - bass
7. oru thanga radhathil - bass
8. raamanin mOhanam - bass
9. idhu oru pon maalai pozhudu - bass
10. poongathavE thaazh thiravaai - drum loop (congos+mridhangam)
IR aficianados might say, it is not right to look at a song only from the rhythm perspective, that these songs have good chords, interludes, harmonies and possibly even strict adherence to one single rAgam. But it is undeniable that these songs are catchy and groovy and will be a total hit even today.
So somewhere along these years, the bass guitar, tambourine and other such rhythm instruments have taken a backseat in IR's songs. I dont think they all vanished overnight or just after 2000. I would like to see a timeline of the kind of songs and rationalize it to a conscious if not unconscious shift into a pattern that fell out of favor with the masses.

[irir123]

kiru- "constructing a timeline for the de-evolution of compositional elements from IR's music" wud perhaps be an apt title!!

[Plum]

Hulkster, a point on tunes, as you say, Poongatru Pudhiranadhula enna tune irukku? When you catch yourself humming the song, notice how you will Poongatru, Tot-tan-doing, Pudhirandhu, Tok-ta-doun. The guitar bit is part of the tune. Oru velai ippo release panni irundha, tune illai, IRku sarakku illainu reject aayirukkumo ennavo.

[crajkumar_be]

Agree 100%


Hulkster - interesting points, but let me tell you this - IR did an album called GURU, n that album set a high standard and expectations from fans like me - not IR's fault though!

and after that there was no way we cud accept anything substandard from him - no doubt he gave a hey ram a mumbai xpress and of course TiS, but somehow he messes up with either his arrangements when it came to synth stuff or something is wrong somewhere - even the percussions dont sound deep - the synth drums he uses r so hollow n irritating - and is it tat he is not using the diverse set of ragas he used to before, n hence the feeling of deja vu - is he repeating some raaga ? for example "chanda mama raave" from mallepooviu sounds similar to "kallai irundhen" from Uliyin osai!

cheeni kum(the sound of real percussion in the second interlude of 'baatein hawa'), mumbai xpress all had real percussion effect, but by n large, IR edhayyo engeyo kottai vittuttaar!

i think the real problem with IR's outputs thse days, is tat he is associating with the wrong ppl - releasin his albums thru all kinds of strange labels

by n large, having set standards like he did before, it luks like IR is simply demotivated to reach those standards again


In my observation, I see only one general trend post-2000 - a distinct lack of motivation to give something creative in IR's output!

There were a few gems like "thalaatum kaatre"(Devan), the Mumbai Xpress album, the stunner TiS album and maybe a few more - but overall I see IR doing 'eno-dhaano' kind of stuff

His interludes have become increasingly plastic - for instance, until the early 1990s, he was using creative motifs even while using synth stuff minimally - take the interludes in the song 'en uyire vaa' as an example - last few years, the interludes are getting shorter but also lacking the imaginative flow richly found in IR's earlier songs

Even the songs of Nandhalala had nothing to write about in terms of the interludes - IR seemd to have focussed on the tunes without paying too much attention to the ludes - donno why he is doing it

plus, his compositions seem to have a deja vu feel to them

But having said all of this, 2009 seems to have brought something out of him - I have hopes from him this year

Inspite of this, as Vignesh has perfectly zeroed in on one issue, if IR puts all his efforts and comes up with a winner, but fails to package it nicely (i.e., does not market it well), its commercial success and reach may not be viable, which could reflect on his motivation to do better albums - but then that line of thinking might be outside the scope of this thread

[Sureshs65]

Well, it is a subject worth a thesis work :) Anyway I will try and post my thoughts soon. Not sure if I agree fully with the views of irir123. Nice topic though if we can analyze dispassionately.

[irir123]

Sureshs65: IRs percussion quality has def gone down - n no real strings n motifs

percussion n strings style - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N61UPxeBJOg - listen to the rhythm/beat pattern of the prelude n the way it sounds - its solid 'thunk' - the bassline is groovy - the way the strings are used in the first interlude between 1:20 and 1:37 - tat motif is a gr8 development of the original tune, n isnt tat beautiful in tempo ??!

where is tat IR now ?? its the sacrifice of these elements tat has shunted off/away IR from the popularity radar! notwithstanding his creativity

[kiru]

Well, it is a subject worth a thesis work :) Anyway I will try and post my thoughts soon. Not sure if I agree fully with the views of irir123. Nice topic though if we can analyze dispassionately.
Absolutely. My feeling is very many of these bassline driven songs gave way to the classical-fusion of Mike Mohan songs..then IR went into the mode of "I can create tunes in a minute" most of which were just tabla driven. With this set in an apathy and minimalistic components in the songs and Rahman came in promptly with drum machines and synthesizers to sweep the audience off their feet.
I am listening to the same CD again and "poongkathavE" s congos+mridhangam+tambourine rhythm is so catchy that I could tell its absence in future numbers created a really felt void. The minimalist songs of IR even gave Deva an opportunity to go around the block for a while.

[Sureshs65]

Let me start the thesis :)

In order to get some objectivity, let me list down the movies done by him year wise, starting from 2000. I will then list down which albums / songs became popular. Then I will add some subjectivity in the sense of listing which of these albums is in my playlist and which songs do I consider to be as good as any of the 80s songs. (Great 80s songs). Once this is done, we can dispassionately see if Raja has really slipped or it is just our perception in the face of newer type of music. Please bear with me as there could be long posts or multiple posts.

Before I start about 2000, let me briefly mention an album of 1999, songs of which I repeatedly listen to even today and everytime I play one of these songs, I invariably rewind and don't proceed further until I have heard them atleast 3 to 4 times. The album is Friends (Malayalam) and the songs I listen to repeatedly are 'Kottaram Kettile (Panjami Tingal)', 'Kadal Katrin', 'Sivamallipoove'.

Before I start this, I need to confess that I have not heard all the albums from 2000 onwards so I may miss some good ones. Would like others to chip by giving their opinion on the songs they like and more importantly why they consider them as good. My analysis starts from the next post.

[Sureshs65]

Raja in 2000

Films done: : Sami Kodutha Varam, Puratchi, Kannukul Nilavu, Kochu Kochu Santoshangal, Illayavan, Bharathi, Hey Ram (Kakai Chiraginile listed as 1999 in some sites. So not including it). Are there more?

'Hits' : Bharati, Hey Ram, Kochu Kochu Santoshangal, Kannukul Nilavu

In my playlist : Most songs of Kochu Kochu, Nee Partha Parvai and Isayil (Hey Ram), Nirpathuve and Edilum Engum (Bharathi), Oru Naal Oru Kanavu (Kannukul Nilavu). Haven't heard the songs of Sami Kodutha Varam, Puratchi and Illayvan. So cannot comment.

Songs I consider on par with 80s hits: 'Sivakara Damaruka', 'Kodamanjin', 'Ganashyama' (KKS), 'Isayil' (Hey Ram), 'Edhilum Engum' (Bharathi) (I am being a bit harsh in my selection in this category)

Number of movies done: 7 (maybe more)

Number of hits: 4

Comments / Corrections most welcome
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[Sureshs65]

Raja in 2001

Films done: : Friends (Tamil), Lajja (Hindi), Usire (Kannada) (I am not including movies that were not released, like Kaathal Jadhi here)

'Hits' : I don't know if Friends can be classified as a 'hit' from music point of view. Lajja had only one song by Raja. I am not sure how Usire was received.

In my playlist : 'Kaun Dagar' (Lajja) and 'Poonkatre( Friends). I haven't heard Usire songs in detail to comment

Songs I consider on par with 80s hits: 'Kaun Dagar' (though I wish it was sung by Lata at her prime :(

Number of movies done: 3

Number of hits: Maybe none

Comments / Corrections most welcome

[Plum]

suresh, on KKS, agree 100%. Siva kara damaruga and Ghanashyama are outstanding compositions. Even there, I recently re-heard them and was put off by some pretty uninterested synth dabba drums - nevertheless, they have a simple understated elegant beauty. I'd add Roja Poonthottam from Kannukkul Nilavu

For 2001, i'd add Manjal Poosum from Friends(dont compare to shivamallippove!!)

[crajkumar_be]

Hey Ram - How much of a musical 'hit' was it? IMO, not only is "Isayil Thodangudhamma" comparable to the 80s greats, its one of Raaja's very best

Bharadhi - I would add "Ninnai Charan Adaindhen". In fact i rate it above "Edhilum"

Kannukkul Nilavu - "Nilavu Paattu" was the pick of the album. I'd also have "Oru Naal" and "Roja poondhottam" in my list

[Sureshs65]

Raja in 2002

Films done: : Azhagi, En Manavanil, Devan, Ivann, Kasi, Ninu Choodaka Nenundalenu, Ramana, Solla Marantha Kadai

'Hits' : Ramana, Azhagi, En Manavanil, Kasi

In my playlist : 'Oliyile' (Azhagi), many songs of En Manavanil, 'Kommallo Koyila' (NCN), 'Vanaville' (Ramana), 'Yennai Enna', 'Kannan Nee', 'Appadi Parkarthenna' (Ivann). 'Kathula Talayatum', 'Gundu Malli', 'Yetho Onnu' (SMK). I have heard some good things about Devan but I haven't heard the songs to comment.


Songs I consider on par with 80s hits: 'Kanna Nee En' (An excellent Sriranjani), 'Kathula Talayatum', 'Gundu Malli' (SMK)

Number of movies done: 8

Number of hits: 4

Comments / Corrections most welcome

[Sureshs65]

Raja in 2003

Films done: : Pitamagan, Virumandi, Mansinakkara, Manasellam, Namma Preetiya Ramu, Manasellam, Konji Pesalam, Shambu (Telugu), Pon Megalai, Dhanush

'Hits' : Pitamagan, Virumandi, Manasinakkara, Namma Preetiya Ramu

In my playlist : 'Ilan Katru' (Pitamagan), Complete Album of Virumandi, Album of Manasinakkara, All songs of Shambu. Haven't heard Pon Megalai, Dhanush and Manasellam. Some songs of Konji Pesalam are in my playlist.

Songs I consider on par with 80s hits: 'Ilan Katru', 'Sandiyare', 'Unnavida', 'Nethiyile Pottu Vai', 'Viru Virumandi', 'Melle Onnu', 'Marakudayal' (Manasinnakkara).( The songs of Shambu cant be referenced to 80s. I like atleast 2 to 3 songs in it but not sure how to rate them against the 80s)

Number of movies done: 10

Number of hits: 4

Comments / Corrections most welcome

[Sureshs65]

Oops. Missed 'Julie Ganapathy' in 2003. That had some very nice songs. 'Enaku iditha Padal' should be up there with the best. Honestly I haven't heard this album all that much to pass any judgement.

[Sureshs65]

Raja in 2004

In the list I saw, there are only 2 movies this year. One is Shiva Shankar (Telugu). Other is Vishwa Tulasi (done with MSV). I haven't heard Siva Shankar and Viswa Tulasi is not Raja alone. So I will skip 2004. In case anyone has inputs on Sivashankar, kindly post

[Sureshs65]

Raja in 2005

Films done: Twinkle Twinkle Little Star, Achuvinte Amma, Oru Naal Oru Kanavu, Adu Oru Kana Kalam, Mumbai Express, Ponmudi Puzhayorathu

'Hits' : Achuvinte Amma (Mumbai Express and Oru Naal Oru Kanavu were musical hits I think)

In my playlist : I havent heard TTLS but all other albums are in my playlist

Songs I consider on par with 80s hits: "Endu Paranjalum' and 'Swasathin Thalam' (AA), 'Kaatril Varum Geethame' (ONOK), MX album, 'Or Chiri Kandal' (PMPO)

Number of movies done: 6

Number of hits: 1 (commercially)

Comments / Corrections most welcome

[Sureshs65]

Raja in 2006

Films done: Shiva, Rasatantram, Pachakuthira

'Hits' : Rasatantram

In my playlist : Couple of songs from Shiva, all songs of Rasatantram, 'Varavelkumo' from Pachakuthira

Songs I consider on par with 80s hits: 'Saara E Allam' was anyways a 80s hit but the orchestration is so different that we can consider it a new. Anyway leaving that aside, I have 'Aatinkarai', 'Poo Kungumapoo' and 'Ponnavani' from Rasatantram and 'Varavelkumo' from Pachakuthira which will match the 80s hits

Number of movies done: 3

Number of hits: 1

Comments / Corrections most welcome

[viraajan]

Going Great Suresh!!! Continue!!! :clap:

I would include "Nilavu Pattu" "Roja Poondhottam" also from KN. Gajiraho from ONOK. Andha Naal from AOKK. Gem numbers... :clap:

[Sureshs65]

Raja in 2007

Films done: Anumanaspadam (Telugu), Vinoda Yatra(Malayalam), Sunny (Telugu), Cheeni Kum (Hindi), Aa Dinagalu (Kannada), Sooriyan (Malayalam)

'Hits' : Vinoda Yatra, Cheeni Kum and Aa Dinagalu

In my playlist : All songs of all these albums

Songs I consider on par with 80s hits: 'Kaiyetha' and 'Mandarapoo' (Vinoda Yatra), 'Ninu Vethiki Vethiki' (Anumanaspadam), 'Vasantha Nila' (what a kickass song from Sooriyan) and both songs of Aa Dinagalu. (Cheeni Kum was anyway 80s again and so was Pratidinam, though orchestration gave different color to the songs)

Number of movies done: 6

Number of hits: 3

Comments / Corrections most welcome

[Sureshs65]

Raja in 2008

Films done: Innathe Chinta Vishayam (Mal), SMS (Mal), Mallepoovu (Tel), Uliyin Osai, Kangalum Kavi Paduthe, Dhanam

'Hits' : Innathe Chinta Vishayam. I wouldn't consider UO as a hit film

In my playlist : 'Malai Nila' (KKP), 'Povathevide', 'Subhaniyogamale' and 'Kadapurathoru' (SMS), all songs in other albums except 'Azhagi Vara' from UO

Songs I consider on par with 80s hits: All songs in UO except 'Choza Vala Nadu' and 'Azhagi Vara', 'Kannanuku Enna Vendum' (Dhanam), 'Povadevide' and 'Subhaniyogamale' (SMS), 'Mallepoovula', 'Chandamama Rave', 'Chirugaali' (Mallepoovu), 'Maalai Nila' (KKP)

Number of movies done: 6 (5 released)

Number of hits: 1

Comments / Corrections most welcome

[Sureshs65]

Raja's non film albums post 2000

Albums Released: Guru Ramanamalai, Amma Paamalai, Mainkandan Geetha Mala and Tiruvasagam

I don't want to classify these as 'hits' or otherwise. 'Tiruvasagam' to me remains the greatest achievement. No other MD has done anything like this. I have stated this earlier as well.

Regarding the other three, I love all of them in equal measure and play them regularly. I listen to Amma Paamalai online as my search for this album till now has failed. I know people have mixed reactions to these albums but in my opinion, Raja has done a fantastic job. Very soothing albums, all three of them.

[Sureshs65]

Raja in 2009?

It has started with two superb albums. Let's wait and see what this year holds in store

[Sureshs65]

In conclusion I can say that there was probably a dip in output during the 2004 time frame. We probably saw more movies flopping due to various reasons and not because of music (ONOK, AOK, Mallepoovu are examples). 2007 onwards has been very good.

I don't think variety is lacking. On one hand we have a traditional Uliyin Osai and Sooriyan, on the other hand a very fresh Vinodayatra, a Dhanam which attempts multiple things, a breezy Aa Dinagalu, a pretty vigorous Anumanaspadam, a 80ish Mallepoovu. Even in a movie like SMS, observe the variety, a philosophical 'Povadevide', a bhajan like 'Subhaniyogamale' and a nice due 'Kadapurathoru'. (What can he do when the director totally destroys the movie?)

I would go with Anant, who earlier said that the hit ratio of Raja was probably the same as in the 80s. Only that he is not doing as many films. That is why many may feel he is not giving as many 'hit' songs.

The films done over the last 2 to 3 yrs is definitely not something that can be done by a person who has 'lost it'.

[crajkumar_be]

Film Albums i liked post 2000:
Bharathi , Hey Ram, Kannukkul Nilavu (3 songs), Pithamagan (3 songs), Virumaandi, Mumbai Xpress, Shiva, Cheeni Kum, Naan Kadavul, Nandalala (with exceptions as applicable)
[Bharathi, Hey Ram, Virumaandi, Mumbai xpress, Naan Kadavul are right up there]

Apart from these, i liked certain tracks from the other albums. OTOH, even among the aforementioned, even in some 'good' songs we have the post-2000 Raja-synth (ill)effects in some songs.

I don't know right away how this would compare with an total output:Good output ratio of the 80s. The point is, i agree with the points Irir has raised regarding certain patterns noticed post 2000 (or even earlier), which is more important to me than any analysis with numbers

[Sureshs65]

I see that many people feel that Raja must give up film music and do non film albums in order to get wider recognition. I wouldn't agree on this. Indian film music is a definitely a different and genuine form of music. It borrows from various sources but it has a distinct identity of its own. Most of Raja's achievements have been in film music. While something like Tiruvasagam is great, you need a films to give us 'Kaiyeta' and 'Kannil Paarvai'. Aren't they gems in their own right?

Indian film music will probably never find acceptance in the west and that is OK. (Kudos to Rahman for winning two Oscars but his recognition in the west is due to working on a 'western' project. I mean, there is going to be no surge in demand for his 'Karuthamma' or 'Dil Se' in west suddenly. His bigger achievements are in Indian Film Music which west is oblivious of.) While we can talk about a global village and all that stuff, the fact remains that some things will be local and the evaluation would also be local. Indian Film music is one such entity. We have to evaluate it against our own history and our own past and not worry about what the west says or does. While Michael Jackson is famous all around the world, is he a better artist that Kishore Kumar? While Beatles have zillions of fans and were responsible for introducing Ravi Shankar to the west, do you have any doubts that Ravi Shankar is a far superior artist that the Beatles? So why worry about recognition and say that Illayaraja should or should not do something in order to get recognition?

(At the same time, I do appreciate what people like iriri123 and Violin Vicky are doing. They are essentially asking serious music lovers to give a hearing to Raja and if the listeners are serious enough, they will probably get what Raja has been trying to do)

I would love Raja to continue giving us music for films. It is more out of selfishness I guess. I mean, who else, just who else, could have given the music for 'Naan Kadavul'. The same can be said of the music of 'Aa Dinagalu'. So it is best if Raja works more, gives more film music and comes up with non film albums at regular intervals.

[Hulkster]

I do understand that Raaja has not been doing experimentation with instruments like he has been doing last time. But i prefer his songs post 2000 to tell you the truth.

The overall orchestration is defined in such a way that it compliments the lyrics better and the on screen flow is not spoilt. The synth is certainly not that bad. Atleast two movies had glaring synth but most of them were quite good. I also notice the synth carries a different sound compared to other MDs. It sounds more like a underlying instrument rather than a enhancer where the latter is the norm in today's music.

People should really leave out the 70s 80s timeline and listen to it again. You should understand that before ARR had come in he almost went into every genre and had experimented enough to prove his talent. There is no need to prove anything again. Its like asking questions whether does GOD exist every single time.

I can understand that IR is not interested in film music. Then people ask why he is still doing them. Simply because he wants to focus on a part alot of people ignore(audience-wise) BGM. People here should understand that there are alot of directors dying to have his BGM. According to them it reduces alot of flaws in the movie. Good BGM is not something that makes you stand up and take notice but something that makes the viewer understand the movie without needing to appreciate it. He has achieved this in alot.

Come on guys, change your views. All this grouses reeks of negativity which is certainly caused by ARR's success. And all this to the extent of "forgetting" about IR's music so much that almost every album has more than two complaints. Can we start being IR fans all over again?

[crajkumar_be]

I do understand that Raaja has not been doing experimentation with instruments like he has been doing last time. But i prefer his songs post 2000 to tell you the truth.

The overall orchestration is defined in such a way that it compliments the lyrics better and the on screen flow is not spoilt. The synth is certainly not that bad. Atleast two movies had glaring synth but most of them were quite good. I also notice the synth carries a different sound compared to other MDs. It sounds more like a underlying instrument rather than a enhancer where the latter is the norm in today's music.

Let's agree to disagree :)


There is no need to prove anything again. Its like asking questions whether does GOD exist every single time.

If i listen to a piece of music, i WILL have some reaction - negative, positive, somewhat indifferent etc. If i don't like what i hear or if i feel "only if it had been like this..." it is a natural reaction. I remember you saying this before. Of course he has done it all. adhukkaaga, if i listen to a song i don't like (especially when held against HIS own standards), i don't understand what exactly your point is. Pretend its good or pretend he never did that song or thing about how "he has done it all before"?



I can understand that IR is not interested in film music. Then people ask why he is still doing them. Simply because he wants to focus on a part alot of people ignore(audience-wise) BGM. People here should understand that there are alot of directors dying to have his BGM. According to them it reduces alot of flaws in the movie. Good BGM is not something that makes you stand up and take notice but something that makes the viewer understand the movie without needing to appreciate it. He has achieved this in alot.

I think we are talking about film songs right? BGM is a different matter altogether.



Come on guys, change your views.

Well, if only i had the power to change others' views like this :razz: (j/k)




All this grouses reeks of negativity which is certainly caused by ARR's success. And all this to the extent of "forgetting" about IR's music so much that almost every album has more than two complaints. Can we start being IR fans all over again?
Now this is getting worse. Please speak for yourself and don't "put word into mouths". I, for one, have been having these grouses for quite a while now, much before ARR's GG, BAFTA or Oscar.

I can sense that you haven't taken ARR's success particularly well! Who is having adverse reactions due to ARR's success - from your posts it looks like its you!

And what's with this condescension? I don't like being told by someone who has discovered Raaja only recently (and thinks his best has come after 2000!!!) how to start being an IR fan all over again and what IR songs to like.
I've been with Raaja's music ever since i was born (to loose my way in the middle briefly only to come back stronger), i have personally done my little 'anil pangu' for Thiruvasagam and as Rahman himself put it, Raaja's music has permeated my soul. Criticizing is not a sign of insecurity, rather, a blind and rigid outlook is. By refusing to even acknowledge and understand the criticisms (or by being blind, deaf and intolerant to other music) , you are always starting with a handicap in any "debate" or comparative discussion or appreciation of music.

A person who appreciates different musicians and different forms and styles of music and still considers IR God needs no lectures on fanboy fidelity

[crajkumar_be]

Hulk,
What really is the objective of this thread?

You want everyone of us to agree that
(a) Raaja has given his best music Post 2000?
(b) The recent synth sounds in his songs "sound great" and "different from other MDs"?
(c) anyone with criticisms is not an IR fan?
(d) Even if he makes mediocre music for mediocre films, we should stop our brains from sending out natural reactions and be in a state of mind which says "Raaja has done it all. He has nothing left to prove. He is not interested in films". Why does he still do films songs? - evade the question and go off in a tangent about BGM
(e) The creative bursts are greater than what it was in the 80s and his melodies, interludes are still fresh for most of his songs?

Lets turn the tables. Let me ask you, when are you going to call a spade, a spade? When are you going to call an unimpressive Raaja track, "unimpressive"?

:huh:

[rajasaranam]

Lets turn the tables. Let me ask you, when are you going to call a spade, a spade? When are you going to call an unimpressive Raaja track, "unimpressive"?

:huh:

Lemme Jump in before Hulk : 'There is not a single song of Raaja that is unimpressive' from the films POV :huh:
Tell me MX was a dud movie without going around the jargons of 'Pritish slapstick comedy' nobody understood like naansense, then we will understand what you are trying to prove here.

[crajkumar_be]

Lets turn the tables. Let me ask you, when are you going to call a spade, a spade? When are you going to call an unimpressive Raaja track, "unimpressive"?

:huh:

Lemme Jump in before Hulk : 'There is not a single song of Raaja that is unimpressive' from the films POV :huh:
Tell me MX was a dud movie without going around the jargons of 'Pritish slapstick comedy' nobody understood like naansense, then we will understand what you are trying to prove here.
RS,
I thought MX had its moments, some good performances but overall it didn't work. Will i watch it now? - No.
Will NOT give excuses like "people didnt understand it" etc.. Maybe some fans of KH will but i will not. He looked overweight and ugly in VR MBBS. His singing in "Alwarpettai Aandava" sucked. He has acted better and in better roles. Dasavatharam had quite a few aspects that were an embarrassment for a fan. Kamal has given his share of duds. (idhayellam naan yerkanave pala thadava sollirukken)
Happy? Now what? :poke:

I have never said *everything* Kamal Haasan has done is good/great or has worked, which is what you are claiming for Ilaiyaraaja. See the difference?

[crajkumar_be]

Rs, oru disclaimer: I'm not forcing you (or Hulk or anyone) to dislike every Raaja song i dislike. There's a difference

When i or Irir lament about synth usage and "typical patterns" in melodies and certain lack-lustre interludes (in His standards), we don't expect everyone to agree. Hulk thread start panni "why are you guys cribbing? This is because you cant stomach Rahman's success. You are not IR fans" nu sonnadhukku thaan andha reply, counter-questions.

[Plum]

Thambigala, idhu enna ARR-IR sandai poi, ippo IR(Kamal faction)-IR(anti Kamal faction-IR(2k+faction)-nuttu kalavaram? Idhu enna sathyamoorthy bhavana imbuttu factions nadatharadudhukku?

[Sureshs65]

Aaah. The 'vaayka tagararu' seems to be serious now :) I will wait for it to cool down before I put down some more thoughts on Raja's music. Gives me time to frame my thoughts as well :)

[eagle]

I see that many people feel that Raja must give up film music and do non film albums in order to get wider recognition. I wouldn't agree on this.

Suresh you also have to agree that Raja often expressed the limitations of movie songs and his desire to move from scoring songs for movies to higher forms of music like symphony.

Thats is the reason behind his non-film ventures like HTNI and NBW and the Symphony for RPO but somewhere in the process he suddenly gave up the idea and it took wat more than ten years to come up with thiruvasagam.

Nothing wrong in fans expectations of him to score more symphonies rather than just film music. Since he is the only musician in india who is capable of doing that, i am of the view that nobody else including Rahman and other classical or film composers have that.

Just tell me what he is going to achieve by scoring more film songs?
other than inviting comparisons with either his past glory or with current crop of MDs?

Its frustrating to see such a genius capable of doing much more than he is actually doing and to top it he himself having the kind of desire, still doing the songs for movies.

BTW i have nothing against film songs its the only form of music i grew up listening to particularly Raja's and 800 movies thousands of songs more than enough for a life time....

[MumbaiRamki]

plum ,

:)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

[Sureshs65]

Just tell me what he is going to achieve by scoring more film songs?
other than inviting comparisons with either his past glory or with current crop of MDs?

To me, therein lies the strength of a true artist. His not being afraid of people comparing him with the current crop of MDs. Infact, in an interview with Bhavatharini he says, even he is a present day MD !!!

It is easy to run away and hide behind past glory, and that too when you have lots of it,when times are tough. It takes a true artist to fight the odds, the criticism, the loss of faith and the scoffing. Raja is doing all that. Maybe many of us feel that the glory days may not come back. That is perfectly fine but why crib when he still gives us great music. I can't think of any song equivalent to 'Kannil Paarvai' in Tamil film music in the last 2 to 3 yrs time frame.

I too would love more non-film albums from him but for whatever reasons he isn't doing it, financial or otherwise, no one can force him to. All I would want is for him to work more. There may be misses but there will be enough hits to keep us all happy. I mean, would we all not love it if he does 10 to 12 albums a year. Are we not certain that definitely 4 to 5 of them will turn out to be outstanding?

Well, so what is he trying to prove in film music? I can't speak from him but I guess he wants to show that he is capable of adapting himself to changing times and his music still has some relevance? Maybe he feels he still has a lot to give to us? He definitely seems to be a restless soul when it comes to music and the only way he would be happy is if he keeps composing all the while? So many probable answers but as long as he wants to compose and as long as he composes like how he did for 'Naan Kadavul' or 'Nandalala' why should we even ask this question?

When Raja himself isn't afraid of failure or being told that his music is old fashioned, why should we be embarrassed and ask him to stop? As far as I am concerned, all power to him. My feeling is that with the coming of newer directors who look deeper into Tamil Nadu and want to make more local films, Raja is being discovered again and again. Many may want to wish him away but I don't think he will go off in a hurry. And I am thankful for that.

[raagas]

i want him to compose for films, but precisely as Suresh pointed out 'Kaiyetha' or 'Kannil Paarvai' or 'Mandhaara Poo' or 'Kaatril Varum Geethame' or 'Kei Veesi'. Stuff like these.

ofcourse i want him to work on non-fim albums too.

More importantly, i want him to release his own works, be it RPO or atleast backgound scores from the films. Look now.. whatever happened to that special BGM release of Nandhala/Nan Kadavul. filmmakers talk about his BGms and say they plan to release... but they finally dont. Amidst all this, why is IR silent? Why cant he release his own stunning BGM pieces? wish he does that.

[eagle]

I mean, would we all not love it if he does 10 to 12 albums a year. Are we not certain that definitely 4 to 5 of them will turn out to be outstanding?



The problem here is just that... its not happening :(

Anyway as hardcore fans of raaja all we cud do is support him by buying original CD's of the albums. The least we can do apart from speculating endlessly about his actions, silence etc., The man wud simply not talk, so the burden shifts to the fans!!! :D

[kiru]

Suresh..absolutely wonderful job..what diligence.
So now the question to the forum do we have a consensus that post-2000 is good or not ?
Maybe we dont have a consensus. Here is what I think the problem is - we do not have a standard to estimate the musical value of a song. We just say "80 greatest" as though all that was done in the 80s was of "high-quality". Maybe it was just popularity. Popularity does not have to mean musical quality (agree ?).

Now I want to go out on a limb and offer my pet theories/hypotheses/opinion. Everybody should feel free to question/debunk my theories.

<Amateur theorising>
I would like to classify IRs songs into various genres viz -
. POP music - rhythm oriented - germaniyin, andhi mazhai, kOda manjil
. semi-classical fusion - raagam based melodies with bass lines for rhythm+counter melody eg. Mohan songs
. Pure melodies - tabla driven + melody based interludes eg. nilA ve vaa - mouna raagam, azhagil azhagu dEvadhai
. Minimalistic tunes - these are tunes which IR does for small budget movies with just tabla - eg. ammana summa illada, ava illana yaarum illada

Ok, my classification may not be right. But I am sure about the first category - POP music. Quite a bit of these were done in the 80s (see my list in page 1 or 2). This is the category which new MDs like Rahman are playing in. This is completely out of IRs hands. Either he is not doing it or lost interest in it or his strategy is not working anymore (ie. bass+drum combos etc). I dont think this terrirtory can be reclaimed anymore (maybe pessimistic here).

Re: minimalistic tunes - I think these are the ones which did IR in. But this is where IR learnt how to pluck tunes out of the database of raagams. It helped IR learn music composition, but did not help him in the long run. It overexposed his tunes and created some stereotypes

Semi-classical fusion and Pure Melodies are areas which IR still has a lead. Semi-classical fusion - has made rapid strides (not just with bass lines) with songs like enna solli paaduvathO as an epitome of innovation in the areas of ICM and WCM fusion. No other MD has ventured into this terriroty.

Pure Melodies - though he has a lead in this. The arrangement in these songs needs sprucing up. IR has been trying but I would like to see better output. He is being challenged in this area by Rahman as well, even though on closer inspection Rahman is behind (eg. kannil paarvai). IR continues to do numbers in this space with classical arrangements (like maa ganga or songs from ivan). But I doubt there is a market for this.

</Amateur theorising -end>

Anyways, you guys may not completely agree with what I have written, but if you think I am on the right track. I will try to write more along these lines (after doing some real research).

[Hulkster]

Hulk,
What really is the objective of this thread?

You want everyone of us to agree that
(a) Raaja has given his best music Post 2000?
(b) The recent synth sounds in his songs "sound great" and "different from other MDs"?
(c) anyone with criticisms is not an IR fan?
(d) Even if he makes mediocre music for mediocre films, we should stop our brains from sending out natural reactions and be in a state of mind which says "Raaja has done it all. He has nothing left to prove. He is not interested in films". Why does he still do films songs? - evade the question and go off in a tangent about BGM
(e) The creative bursts are greater than what it was in the 80s and his melodies, interludes are still fresh for most of his songs?

Lets turn the tables. Let me ask you, when are you going to call a spade, a spade? When are you going to call an unimpressive Raaja track, "unimpressive"?

:huh:

(a) You do not have to agree that IR has given his best music since 2001. But you could agree that it is not that bad as its thought. The people here made it sound like he died which really makes me angry. Criticism is one thing, but totally degrading him is totally off the mark. Even ARR fans have criticism of their idol's songs, but it is not as sickening like in here.

(b) I feel that raja uses synth in such a way that it sounds more like a instrument-replacement rather than a sound enhancer. I know that alot of IR fans do not like this change and they mention stuff like why not live orchestra but they should realise the man only uses them if necessary. Besides there might be a budget problem in accommodating a live orchestra which is why IR might be leaving them out. I do enjoy his synth except for probably one or two movies. I dunt really see that much of a problem when i listen to them as stated here otherwise.

(c) As i mentioned criticism is allowed, but how good is the criticism is one thing. The moment there is criticism there are statements like he should stop doing film music and all that stuff. I believe it might be a result of high standards but then trying to think they all need to have a 80s 90s quality is plain silly. He has tried to make his songs suit the movie and as such the rhythm and the arrangements have mellowed down. But i feel there is a refined taste in his composing.

(d) I start mentioning that when people try to make him look like he is really dead or he has no talent. It is not a statement to make up for his "mediocre"(subjective again) music but to just remind IR fans who feel he must have experimented here or there that he has already done all that stuff. Maybe i should have said his special focus on matching song for film (nandalala style) is a additional reason.

(e) He does have creative bursts which alot of IR fans dunt amazingly notice. It does not come in every album but it is still there. The taalam pattern in dhanam dhanam enga dhanam(the taalams the man can come up with is amazing), bass guitar in koothu onnu(i think i mention this everytime but i cant help it), guitar riffs in malepoovu theme, piano in chandamama, the remix in anumanaspadam which had great use of mridhangam like a "chop". The arabic orchestration in salsalakkum kaatre in TTLS.There is still alot more. But then people will say it aint up to his 80s style.

As for me saying all this grouses are due to ARR's success, that is because from the time i followed this forum till now, the fans seem to be overawed by whatever breakthrough ARR makes. ARR's amazing recording quality has been indirectly used as a reason to criticise IR. If IR fans were not overawed by ARR's success as you mention then i think we would have a combined ARR-IR forum long time back.

What according to you is unimpressive in Raja's track? Mention me the tracks and let me see if they are unimpressive. The problem with alot of people here is they straight away judge the track upon its tune and then throw it away. Alot of people said koothu onnu was seductive and not recommended for listening and they ignored the whole composition completely. Not an IR fan's cup of tea if you ask me.

[Sureshs65]

kiru,

I will have to disagree with you on the very first classification itself. Is Andhi Mazhai POP? Germaniyin POP? Definitely nowhere close to being POP. I would classify them as pure melodies which may be driven by beat. When you pick up a ragam like Vasantha and innovate so much, you are not in the POP territory at all. Same with Kodamanjin. A lovely Suddha Saveri with nice beats.

This is exactly the secret of Raja. You hear the beats and I hear the raga :) The amount of integration he has done in his music is outstanding and these songs stand as examples for that.

So what has gone away from him? The 'hit' territory has gone away from him. This is obviously very hard to classify but what is generally a hit today in urban areas is the POP sound. No doubt about that. The intricacies in tune or orchestration in them is nowhere close to what 'Andhi Mazhai' had. (Can't expect it anyway.) So we should feel lucky that there were times when the hits songs had lot of musical merit in them as well.

Every composer has some templates when it comes to composing. In case of Raja, the number of templates he has is probably the highest amongst the lot and he is discovering newer templates regularly. ('Kai Veesi' can be classified as one such example of a newer template).

Will be good if people participate more and give us an idea of what their classification would be. I personally like Kiru's idea of classification but I believe the number of categories he has is less.

[kiru]

kiru,

I will have to disagree with you on the very first classification itself. Is Andhi Mazhai POP? Germaniyin POP? Definitely nowhere close to being POP. I would classify them as pure melodies which may be driven by beat. When you pick up a ragam like Vasantha and innovate so much, you are not in the POP territory at all. Same with Kodamanjin. A lovely Suddha Saveri with nice beats.

This is exactly the secret of Raja. You hear the beats and I hear the raga :) The amount of integration he has done in his music is outstanding and these songs stand as examples for that.


Completely agree with you. That is why I said in my post in page 1 - "IR aficianados might say, it is not right to look at a song only from the rhythm perspective, that these songs have good chords, interludes, harmonies and possibly even strict adherence to one single rAgam. But it is undeniable that these songs are catchy and groovy and will be a total hit even today. "



So what has gone away from him? ..

Instead of saying what has gone away from him, I am trying to guess the component of the song that has gone and the answer I am going to hazard is that bassline or the drum loop. That was the title of my post in page 1 - "Where has the rhythm gone ?"




Will be good if people participate more and give us an idea of what their classification would be. I personally like Kiru's idea of classification but I believe the number of categories he has is less.
Yes, they should, my classification can be completely thrown away. If somebody had a manageable criteria for classification, preferably with rhythm as one of its components, then we should take it up. Otherwise we are not going anywhere why IR's music is not a hit anymore or whether IR is doing bad these days.

[nanchil_guy]

if you ask me why IR's music is not a hit anymore, i would say IR has never changed but the world has changed.

See, IR always stick to his way of composing , he never changed/compromised on his style/arrangements etc, which is not so cool/new for younger generation where as the same is old/repetitive for us the previous gen.

Why the song 'kai veesi' instantly likable for all of us, 'coz its a fast phased melody, which is trend now and which IR is not doing frequently.Becose he will never change his methods, what he is trying to do now is to persuade both the previous and current generation to listen to his old school type music. He is successfull in doing so somwtimes and also failing some times given the nature of thing he is trying to acheive.

The essence of my message here is, most of us the previous generation is moving away from listenening to IR kinda music where as most of the current generation is like to listen only fast phased music.(I dont like sterotyping people, thats why i am using the word 'most', so please dont jump on me).

[Hulkster]

I think the taste of music depends more on the character than the generation. Most of today's generation are quite "accept what seems attractive" type which carries their taste but then there a also quite a number who like to explore alot(listening to different types of music), concentration and focus(tendency on melodies) and some who are introverts love soulful music like me.

[crajkumar_be]

Hulk,
I'd like to clarify certain assumptions i 'assume' you and others have about "us" (i include myself in the criticizers list, maybe the degree varies) and what our grouses are

(1) We have never said that Raaja's creativity is gone. He goes in "ordinary" mode (in our opinions) only to surface with "great vengeance" with a Bharathi, Virumaandi, Mumbai Xpress or a Naan Kadavul. Is it a question of 'challenging' him enough? Not to say that there's no creativity in his other works (or all his 80s-90s where his best creative efforts)

(2) If i say i don't want certain synth sounds it does not mean he has lost his experimental hat. And when i find certain melodies of have a 'certain 2000 Raja typical pattern' to it i'm not necessarily implying a rant on "outdatedness". Quite the opposite actually. Eppadi solradhu nu therila (certain things are best explained by direct conversation :) )

(3) As i see it, some of our fellow IR fans themselves are wrongly bucketing Raaja's repertoire and styles which in my mind is an insult to his music and limits it into rigid confines.

(4) Recording quality is only part of the issue. As i've been crying hoarse, its about the usage [One may try to put me in my place by saying IR neednt be told by any mortal on what instrument to use but then i get to choose what i like. So its just about preferences]

(5) All this talk of rubbishing the sound or novelty factor is rubbish. IR himself burst into the scene with sounds and experiments not seen before at that time (like what Rahman did with and since Roja). Reducing Raaja to a one who "scores minimalistic soulful scores" or "one who is (only) classically inclined" or "a light musician", "updated version of MSV" etc is silly. You didn't say this, Hulk, ungala sollala


What according to you is unimpressive in Raja's track? Mention me the tracks and let me see if they are unimpressive
They need not be unimpressive to you. My point was, by asking us to change our views and by attempting to dispel every negative notion we had, you seemed to find no single unimpressive feature in Raaja's music post 2000, let alone an unimpressive track.
Seri, neenga kettadhukku, Nandalala albuthaye eduthukkuvom, Vandu Koottam and Thalattu weren't very impressive for me. Needless to say, i don't expect you to share the same opinion



(a) You do not have to agree that IR has given his best music since 2001. But you could agree that it is not that bad as its thought. The people here made it sound like he died which really makes me angry. Criticism is one thing, but totally degrading him is totally off the mark. Even ARR fans have criticism of their idol's songs, but it is not as sickening like in here.

(b) I feel that raja uses synth in such a way that it sounds more like a instrument-replacement rather than a sound enhancer. I know that alot of IR fans do not like this change and they mention stuff like why not live orchestra but they should realise the man only uses them if necessary. Besides there might be a budget problem in accommodating a live orchestra which is why IR might be leaving them out. I do enjoy his synth except for probably one or two movies. I dunt really see that much of a problem when i listen to them as stated here otherwise.

(c) As i mentioned criticism is allowed, but how good is the criticism is one thing. The moment there is criticism there are statements like he should stop doing film music and all that stuff. I believe it might be a result of high standards but then trying to think they all need to have a 80s 90s quality is plain silly. He has tried to make his songs suit the movie and as such the rhythm and the arrangements have mellowed down. But i feel there is a refined taste in his composing.

(d) I start mentioning that when people try to make him look like he is really dead or he has no talent. It is not a statement to make up for his "mediocre"(subjective again) music but to just remind IR fans who feel he must have experimented here or there that he has already done all that stuff. Maybe i should have said his special focus on matching song for film (nandalala style) is a additional reason.

(e) He does have creative bursts which alot of IR fans dunt amazingly notice. It does not come in every album but it is still there. The taalam pattern in dhanam dhanam enga dhanam(the taalams the man can come up with is amazing), bass guitar in koothu onnu(i think i mention this everytime but i cant help it), guitar riffs in malepoovu theme, piano in chandamama, the remix in anumanaspadam which had great use of mridhangam like a "chop". The arabic orchestration in salsalakkum kaatre in TTLS.There is still alot more. But then people will say it aint up to his 80s style.

As for me saying all this grouses are due to ARR's success, that is because from the time i followed this forum till now, the fans seem to be overawed by whatever breakthrough ARR makes. ARR's amazing recording quality has been indirectly used as a reason to criticise IR. If IR fans were not overawed by ARR's success as you mention then i think we would have a combined ARR-IR forum long time back.

What according to you is unimpressive in Raja's track? Mention me the tracks and let me see if they are unimpressive. The problem with alot of people here is they straight away judge the track upon its tune and then throw it away. Alot of people said koothu onnu was seductive and not recommended for listening and they ignored the whole composition completely. Not an IR fan's cup of tea if you ask me.

[Hulkster]

Well ironically bala your not in the list who criticised raaja vehemently. You have mentioned that some of his songs were not up to the mark but otherwise the criticism was understandable so i had absolutely no problem. My anger was more towards those who threw him off immediately with quite un-IR fan like remarks. I do understand the album may be unsatisfying to different listeners(Probably you can categorize IR fans into different sections as well) But the remarks show more of dislike rather than opinion based criticism.

This is why i asked to re-analyse them not for fighting but to see what are the tracks they dislike. If they said IMO or mentioned for my own aural pleasure i would not have mind it but bringing it to a extent where it really reeks of negativity and also bringing in his marketing value, personality for his "failure" etc etc.

As a fan i understand that what i like others might not like but then there is a limit between criticising and plainly not understanding your own idol's composing style. Its amazing the harshest critics here are probably categorized under one who probably likes a decent tune but they make it sound like the song is void of anything good.

Even i dunt have good technical knowledge, i probably only know ludes and guitar,piano,violin and that was all due to raja's songs pushing me to discover them. What i want to tell this people is that, even i was bred into a hardcore raja fan from the songs they all believe wunt even ignite a little baby from the current generation. Which is why i think we should relook at his albums again. From Suresh65 list the albums dunt look as "scarey" that was said by the IR "fans" here.

[raagas]

What according to you is unimpressive in Raja's track? Mention me the tracks and let me see if they are unimpressive.

sorry, i am just giving my thoughts.

A recent telugu film called Sunny had one song 'nee banda bada'. I felt IR stooped down a lot in that song. One more film "Shiv Shankar"(telugu) had one "nenemi chethunu" song. these are 'item' songs. Now please dont say that an item song ought to be that way. IR composed much better item songs.Listen to them and tell me if you would like to associate IR with it, or if you would play them on your stereo anytime. If i have to pick non-item songs which were unimpressive, to me, there were many. Listing them is a difficult task for me now. like 'Kangalum Kavipaduthey', i somehow didnt like some songs of that film, although Maalai Nila was brilliant.
I am only citing some examples, for that single question of yours.

[Hulkster]

Actually nee bandababa is a typical IR item song(by his standards), not that bad and not that good, the ludes were quite interesting especially the first interlude(Percussions and synth) but i think the tune will put off alot of people due to its deja vu feel.

Judging by your style i guess your more of a listener who prefers the orchestration to come in the flow of a good tune as maalai nila is exactly that. In that case there will be alot of tracks you will have problems making me to agree as i am a strong fan of his orchestration rather than tune(Unless the tunes are too plain which is quite rare in his case).

[nanchil_guy]

Hulkster, if thats what you are concerned about, then this trend is unlikly gonna change. Just call yourself an IR fan and criticize his musical work left and right without any valid points , voila !! no harms done, coz u r an IR 'fan'.This is what happening here for a long time .

I am not against the constructive/valid criticizm or some of IR songs being unimpressive to someone (case in point, i dont celebrate all his songs), but as Hulkster put in his early message, i just dont understand why a handful of people (not all) here dismiss IR's work just like that with out even giving a second thought/listening.

[nanchil_guy]

MY last message was a reply for this Hulkster message,


Well ironically bala your not in the list who criticised raaja vehemently. You have mentioned that some of his songs were not up to the mark but otherwise the criticism was understandable so i had absolutely no problem. My anger was more towards those who threw him off immediately with quite un-IR fan like remarks. I do understand the album may be unsatisfying to different listeners(Probably you can categorize IR fans into different sections as well) But the remarks show more of dislike rather than opinion based criticism.
This is why i asked to re-analyse them not for fighting but to see what are the tracks they dislike. If they said IMO or mentioned for my own aural pleasure i would not have mind it but bringing it to a extent where it really reeks of negativity and also bringing in his marketing value, personality for his "failure" etc etc.

As a fan i understand that what i like others might not like but then there is a limit between criticising and plainly not understanding your own idol's composing style. Its amazing the harshest critics here are probably categorized under one who probably likes a decent tune but they make it sound like the song is void of anything good.

Even i dunt have good technical knowledge, i probably only know ludes and guitar,piano,violin and that was all due to raja's songs pushing me to discover them. What i want to tell this people is that, even i was bred into a hardcore raja fan from the songs they all believe wunt even ignite a little baby from the current generation. Which is why i think we should relook at his albums again. From Suresh65 list the albums dunt look as "scarey" that was said by the IR "fans" here.

[Plum]

"From Suresh65 list the albums dunt look as "scarey" that was said by the IR "fans" here."

Absolutely. Suresh's 2K+ list contains many favourites of mine. Prathi Dinam nee dharshanam is a nice, funky update of mayanginaen. I have come round to like the former more.
Kochu Kochu - Ghanshyama and Shiva Kara - I dont think even in the 70's Raja has done songs like this. They are unique.

Engage pannungappa - appuram pesunga.

[Plum]

Pon Megalai. Pure Gold. Evlo peruppa ketturkkenga?

[Hulkster]

Thats the problem nanchil_guy. Imagine my shock when almost 2/3 of fans here were ready to dismiss dhanam as one of the worst albums ever. An album with experimentation(eg. ethnic/tribal flute style in the prelude of kattilukku mattumthana) certainly deserves better than this sort of remarks.

Actually for most of the time i have tried to stay away from their "criticisms" but this was really like a bolt. Cant help rebutting them back. Sanjeevi warned me before that almost every IR album will have such criticisms but this was like writing the orbituary of IR and sending it to dhinathanthi. Sollurathu comedy ninaichi paarthaal saavu-adi.

[Hulkster]

I have listened to pon megalai and konji pesalam after a recommendation by a old hubber about four years back(was browsing the forum for IR works avidly then). The melodies had a breezy carnatic touch which really grew into me.

I think i shall list albums i liked starting with Dhanam and i will go song by song to show you my taste.

[Sureshs65]

raagas,

Between a few item songs, 'Nee Banda Bada', 'Azhagi Vara' 'Dhanam Dhanam', and the item song from Mallepoovu, I would probably rate 'Azaghi' way below the others. I honestly don't have a problem with 'Nee Banda Bada' and I listen to it once in a while. I don't feel that Raja has stooped in order to compose these numbers. My favorite item number is 'Singapore Santalona' from Shambu. It is here where the iconoclastic Raja comes to the fore. If you check out the rhythm for the charanam, he uses the cymbals and the drums which are normally associated with bhajans !!! I guess no one other than Raja would dare do this. (I haven't heard the Shiv Shankar number)

I had posted this in other topic earlier but a real kuthu song is here. Check out Anne Anne from Kathal Jadhi. http://www.thiraipaadal.com/albums/ALBIRR00285.html

I agree with you about Kangalum Kavi Padude. I was underwhelmed though 'Malai Nila' is a fav of mine and I listen to it often. This is the only Raja album I haven't been able to enjoy fully in the past two years.

[Plum]

Suresh, Kaadhal Saadhi - that is pure PLATINUM!!

[Sureshs65]

Plum,

With you on 'Prati Dinam'. Honestly I hadn't heard the Tamil version before. I heard it only after I heard 'Prati Dinam'. I love 'Prati Dinam' both for the reworked orchestration and for the lyrics. The lyrics have a very conversational tone to them. Thought it was Veturi but was surprised to discover it was by Vamshi.

I would agree fully with Hulk on 'Kattilukku Mattumdhana' from Dhanam. What a lovely song though Muthuligam's in-your-face lyrics does take away a bit from the song. Would have been even better had the lyrics not been so very explicit.

[thumburu]

Iam not sure if most of u guys out here relish female solos . Being a woman, I simply love these female solos created by Raja in the 80's ,esp with bewitching Sridevi mouthing the lines and scintillating vocals of SJ/Chitra like "kuyile kavikkuyile", "sendhoorapoove", "solai kuyile", "malargaLil aadum iLamai" , "ninaithaal inikkum" , "poN vaanam paneer thoovudhu" etc. I sometimes used to wonder how Raja could bring out such marvels without delving deep into a woman's mind . Post millennium, I find his quality of female solos has dipped. Even hit songs like "paattu cholli", "vaanaville" dont measure up to say "udhaya kaalame" or "vaan meedhile" of the 80's. Reason, either poor quality of singing as in the former , or dull, lacklustre interludes as in the case of later . Even in the recent "KaNNil paarvai", the second interlude seems to be just a filler , falling short of the standards set by a song like "kaatril endhan geetham". So the last female solo of IR which gave me the satisfaction of 80's is "niram pirithu paarthen" from the movie "Time" . "Konji pesalam" has "unnai thedi" with a great tune, average singing but very brief interludes. One consolation theory could be today's directors don't give scope for picturizing long winding interludes

[Sureshs65]

Yes Plum. That is pure Platinum. No doubt about it. Should thank RS for pointing me to this. When I listened to it recently I was stunned and was listening to it on a regular basis for weeks together. Love 'Katre Katre' and 'Enna Maranthalum'. Just no one else can think up these type of melodies. Pity the movie never got released.

[Plum]

Suresh, you know we keep saying "IR's music is its own reward". I have understood those words before - but reading your comment on Kaadhal Saadhi made me actually feel it. Here we are talking about an unreleased movie - even IR fans havent heard it much, proof: you heard it only recently, we are using a single word to share our feelings on it(PLATINUM) yet I rather think I know exactly what you feel on these songs. I went through the same awe hearing Kaadhal Saadhi. Enna Marandhalum-nu monitor-la paarkaracheye, the song loops through my mind - Mahathi's raw, unpolished, debutant singing searing through emotions as the song requires to - heck, I dont even need to physically hear it now, it's etched - isnt this its own reward? This was a very eureka, i can feel it moment.

[Sureshs65]

Thumburu,

I haven't analyzed this aspect but maybe you have a point when it comes to the Tamil songs. (And lovely songs you have mentioned!!) I fully agree with you regarding the quality of singers. Wish he uses Chitra often but it is not to be. Shreya is not bad but for Tamil songs Chitra would definitely be a better choice.

Having said that, I would like to point out a few recent female solos which have been very good. Couple from Kathal Jadhi. One by Harini and one by Manjari. 'Kanni Mara' and 'Enna Maranthalum'. Lovely numbers. The other ones I liked are all from Malayalam movies. 'Varna Vrindavanam' (Kaliyoonjal), 'Punnara Poo' , 'Kadal Kathin', and 'Sivamalli Poove' (Friends - Malayalam), 'Minnaram Maanathu' (Guru), 'Poo Kungumapoo' (Rasathantram), 'Endu Paranjalum' (Achuvinte Amma), 'Subha Niyogamale' (SMS). I am giving this list because I have recorded these in a tape and keep playing it in my car often :) (The Manjari song from Mallepoovu, "Gaajula Gala Gala" was nice but I may not bracket it with your 80s list.)

There are some lovely female solos in "Amma Paamalai" as well. Especially the Durga (Suddha Saveri) based 'Kolluramma Kovillukku'. I am not sure if you will like them because they are all sung by Bhavatarini. (I don't mind Bhavatarini in many songs but I honestly wish someone like Chitra had sung in Amma Paamalai. It would have been divine.

[Sureshs65]

Plum,

Wonderfully put. Yes. It was such a eureka moment for me as well.

[raagas]

Suresh,

Amma Pamalai was good, but somehow i dislike Bhavatharini's voice.I find it incomplete, for some reason. It is not as complete as Chitra or even shreya ghoshal (i dont know abt her pronounciation since i dont know tamil). Even Manjari, shweta are fine for me. but not bhavatharini. Dhanam's Kannanukku Enna Vendum is an outstanding composition which could have sounded even more good if someone else sang it.
well, matter of personal choice. cant help.

[Hulkster]

Dhanam(2008)

This will probably be one of my most favourite albums post 2000s of IR. Experimentation ravishing just like IR of 80s.

Ilamai Kanavugal

A synth melody to describe it best. But it is not glaring. Rather it is structured well to make it a superbly packaged melody. The violins in the first interlude really highlight the situation showing IR's composing genius. They play in a high tempo and then switch to a contrasting one sequentially to give you a breezy romantic feel. Do i need to mention the guitar riffs in the second interlude? No words to describe them, they bring in the same feel as the violins but with no similarity to their notations. To put it correctly they "sound" like they are describing the hero's feelings about the heroine's beauty which is what the song is about.

As for the tune listen to the part where karthik expresses the becoming of his love.

"Yedhedho Maaradhu, Yen Nenjam Paadathu " The tone is modulated in such a way that you could understand what he is saying even without needing to see the lyrics. Ithuvum experimentation thaan.

Kannunukku Enna Vendum

A semi-classical song, The starting instrument(Harp-like) that softly accompanies kannukku enna vendum perfectly compliments her high-pitched voice and the actually mood of the song. The first interlude, well alot of IR fans will say that IR has done like this alot of times but the transition from synth-flute? to carnatic violin carrying the despair of her past shows you that IR is nowhere near "death". The second interlude would be best described as a veenai extravaganza. One who cant melt to this will not melt to anything. The veenai really describes the heroine's happiness at being accepted by her new family. I dunt think i need to mention about the tune's structure. As much as bhavatharini's voice is glaring, i feel that IR used her voice to bring in the despair as a contrast to enhance the song's mood.

Koothu Onnu
Seductive number yes, not worth listening i dunt think so. Listen to the groovy bass guitar strumming at the start with a racey guitar tempo in the background. It really brings in the seductive feel of the song and it continues throughout the song. The synth at the start of the first interlude has a slow, "orasifying" type of feel which builds up to the first stanza after the interlude. Notice the contrasting guitar riffs after the "aval veicha malli poo avanodeiya aasaiyai etc" it sounds like a male and female getting intimate with each other. The second interlude, well, tribal percussions mixed with a synth to give a rousing climax to their intimacy. Notice how the percussions do not deviate from their pattern to maintain the feel.

Dhanam Dhanam
This is what i call a good koothu number. I think alot of people missed out the starting percussions of this song. It goes through soft repetitions before going to a louder repitition(Not technically knowledgeable for taalam patterns, suresh can help me on this) which sounds quite interesting. There are atleast more than three different patterns for the background percussions of this song which i can notice which really shows IR's underrated skill with percussions.

1) Prelude percussion pattern which i mentioned above

2) Normal folkish style till the song starts with "enga pettaila oru rani undu"

3) A more tribalistic version of the second one with possibly one drum being removed i think.

4) "Anna letchimi sorna letchimi" has 2 and 3 combined.

The tune itself is just nice but it is the percussions that really enhance this song. I only mentioned four there is still some more to digress about when you go further.

Kattilukku Mattumthaanda

A philosophical number which brings out the pain of the lyrics amazingly well with the starting ethnic flute. The guitar that accompanies the first stanza is orchestrated like a "depressing question mark" to the question IR sings through the first stanza. "Kattilukku Mattumthana Pombala, Ava Kashtathiley Yarukkumey Pangu Ellei" then the guitar comes in. The first lude if you notice is actually a reversed version of the synth that comes in the second interlude of koothu onnu. Art of composing i would say seeing that both songs are connected in a way. Do i need to mention the flute that comes in places yet significantly to highlight IR's grouses in the song? Listen for yourself.

Unakulley Irukindren

This is probably the song which can be classified as a easy as a-b-c romantic duet by IR standards. The reduced rhythm and poison-like(i mean in a romantic way) instrumentation which is actually refined shows IR's trademark stamp nowadays. The flute in the second interlude bears the answer to those who said he has lost it and the scarey fact would be that IR has quite alot of composing styles for the flute which is evident in other songs. The highlight of this song is the accompanying mridhangam when the male/female change their modulations after the interludes and the catchy "controlled" percussion beats that comes when they sing "yenthan ulagamey ulagamey, paniyai pol urugumey".

I excluded ulagam kidakkadhu as i feel it is quite weird for IR to go for loops totally with a typical tune. But strangely sounds nice when you listen to it more than twice.

[Sureshs65]

Thumburu,

I haven't analyzed this aspect but maybe you have a point when it comes to the Tamil songs. (And lovely songs you have mentioned!!) I fully agree with you regarding the quality of singers. Wish he uses Chitra often but it is not to be. Shreya is not bad but for Tamil songs Chitra would definitely be a better choice.

Having said that, I would like to point out a few recent female solos which have been very good. Couple from Kathal Jadhi. One by Harini and one by Manjari. 'Kanni Mara' and 'Enna Maranthalum'. Lovely numbers. The other ones I liked are all from Malayalam movies. 'Varna Vrindavanam' (Kaliyoonjal), 'Punnara Poo' , 'Kadal Kathin', and 'Sivamalli Poove' (Friends - Malayalam), 'Minnaram Maanathu' (Guru), 'Poo Kungumapoo' (Rasathantram), 'Endu Paranjalum' (Achuvinte Amma), 'Subha Niyogamale' (SMS). I am giving this list because I have recorded these in a tape and keep playing it in my car often :) (The Manjari song from Mallepoovu, "Gaajula Gala Gala" was nice but I may not bracket it with your 80s list.)

There are some lovely female solos in "Amma Paamalai" as well. Especially the Durga (Suddha Saveri) based 'Kolluramma Kovillukku'. I am not sure if you will like them because they are all sung by Bhavatarini. (I don't mind Bhavatarini in many songs but I honestly wish someone like Chitra had sung in Amma Paamalai. It would have been divine.

[Sureshs65]

Sorry for the multiple posting

[Sureshs65]

Thumburu,

Also 'Sandiyare Sandiyare'. I personally feel Shreya's voice doesn't really suit this song but she does a decent job. An excellent song.

[irir123]

Pon Megalai. Pure Gold. Evlo peruppa ketturkkenga?

one thing common to all the movies listed by Suresh65 - none of them are now available as CDs online anywhere !!

what the heck is that all about ??

we dont even get to listen/hear them - and if prompted, makkals refer to sites that illegally have these songs for downloading

this is IR's fate - first the CDs dont come out with a regular label, second they disappear from shelves after a few years

[app_engine]

Suresh65,

Your list seems to miss 'mAyakkaNNAdi'.

That brings one thought to my mind that characterizes IR's output in recent years ( I don't want to get into the post-92, post-2K kind of time frames) - "failure to deliver catchy songs on reasonably-visible projects".

You can dispute this by telling musical quality, suiting to movie theme, extraordinary BGM, this and that...but it's a sad fact.

The darling of TN who used to give sensations beyond expectations on "much expected" projects in his heydays is on a "doesn't care" mode on similar ones nowadays. (Recent NK another example with a couple of rehashes and bhajans).

The "unpopular" numbers (tunes that do not quickly register in mind or make people shake their bodies even a bit) he gave to KH for ME (even to virumANdi with awful singers including the "now-too-old-to-siing-KH" - it was ok when I saw on screen but a big turn-off when I first got the album) are inexplicable.

Agreed HR was a last-minute album where he had to match what was picturized but he didn't have any such restrictions in these two, or MK or ONOK.

However, he has been consistently delivering "instantly hummable" numbers in MFM (Atrin karai, kaiyeththA etc.)

I can't help comparing his current TFM output to dhaLapathi - or even veerA , why even kAsi days. Those days he never failed an 'expected' or 'high-profile' project. The saddest case was that of MK when he could deliver just an acceptable 'ulagilE' for his mentor PA:-( Cheran may be undemanding but IR always used to give something special for PA, adhuvum illa. That's when one thinks whether he is losing interest in TFM.

UO last year was good and Nandhalala is definitely good too. May be motivation issues...

[raagas]

Iam not sure if most of u guys out here relish female solos . Being a woman, I simply love these female solos created by Raja in the 80's ,esp with bewitching Sridevi mouthing the lines and scintillating vocals of SJ/Chitra like "kuyile kavikkuyile", "sendhoorapoove", "solai kuyile", "malargaLil aadum iLamai" , "ninaithaal inikkum" , "poN vaanam paneer thoovudhu" etc. I sometimes used to wonder how Raja could bring out such marvels without delving deep into a woman's mind . Post millennium, I find his quality of female solos has dipped. Even hit songs like "paattu cholli", "vaanaville" dont measure up to say "udhaya kaalame" or "vaan meedhile" of the 80's. Reason, either poor quality of singing as in the former , or dull, lacklustre interludes as in the case of later . Even in the recent "KaNNil paarvai", the second interlude seems to be just a filler , falling short of the standards set by a song like "kaatril endhan geetham". So the last female solo of IR which gave me the satisfaction of 80's is "niram pirithu paarthen" from the movie "Time" . "Konji pesalam" has "unnai thedi" with a great tune, average singing but very brief interludes. One consolation theory could be today's directors don't give scope for picturizing long winding interludes

We cannot slot like that. It is just that IR gets brilliant ideas/tunes randomly(which IR calls - 'naturally', i agree). There were wonderful female in 80s and even Post-2000. few have already been pointed out. Some examples:

1. Female solos in Julie Ganapathy, by Shreya Ghoshal infact.
2. Nethu Varaikum - Kasthoorimaan (underrated, less discussed gem. i request everyone to give a hearing, so wonderful, Sujatha shines) - I will call it song of the day today.
3. Niram Pirithu - Time - Sujatha again
4. Ninnu Vethiki Vethiki Choosi - Anumanaspadam (people always talk about Prathi Dinam, but this one is a killer of a song).

There are many like these. Thats why i can never give up on IR on any aspect. :)

[Sureshs65]

AE,

Yes. My list did miss 'Maya Kannadai' and I realize 'Chidambarathil Oru Appuswamy'. I agree with you that not only MK but also COA did not have 'instantly catchy' songs. As I had earlier mentioned, the 'hits' that he gives in Tamil have been less. Fair assessment I would say. As you said that is an important factor as well. That is also reflected in the record sales. So no one can really dispute that.

While I would also love the Raja of the past where he could suit every mood of the movie and also come up with 'hits', my concern is about the quality of music itself. Has it gone down? We can answer it the way we perceive. I don't think the quality has gone down. For example I do feel ME was a nice soundtrack with lot of experimentation. Maybe it was not a super duper hit, maybe not even an ordinary hit, but musically it was satisfying to me. Think of the songs from Solla Marantha Kadai. I liked atleast 3 songs from that movie but it was not a major hit. Maybe the 'catchiness' wasn't there but to me, the music was not bad. Infact it was high quality stuff.

I would disagree with you on a couple of points. I don't think 'Mayakannadi' can be called a high profile project. Honestly I never had much expectations from a Cheran movie when it comes to music. Cheran is known more for his realistic cinema than for music. (Unlike BM, MR, BR, Mahendran etc.) Post 2000s, the only projects that I expected great music were those of Kamalahasan and he delivered in all of them. ONOK had music in line with expectation of a Fazil movie. 'Katril Varum Geethame' is still a favorite to lot of people and almost everyone who comes on some singing show ends up singing this.

I know you had earlier also posted that you weren't happy with Naan Kadavul. I have to again disagree. While there are a couple of redone tunes, this has been a very satisfying album. I am not saying this for the sake of argument but I have been listening to it everyday since the day I bought it and I do feel very satisfied with the album. That without the Kaasi song.

Whatever be the issues, 2009 has started on a good note with Naan Kadavul and Nandalala being two very good sound tracks. Let's hope the year hold even better things going forward.

[Sureshs65]

raagas,

thumburu did mention the 'Time' song. And yes to Kasturi Maan and yes again to Ninu Vetiki Vetiki. SPB had some very good words to say about the latter in his show.

[thumburu]

Sureshs65 , among the songs you listed, I can vouch for "shiva kara","ghanashyaama","kodamanjil" of "Kochu kochu santhoshangaL" to be as good any female solo of the elegant eighties. I find "sandiyare" pretty ordinary
Among the solos listed by raagas, yes, Julie Ganapathi has that melodious "enakku piditha paadal" with "Dharbaari kaanada" flavour despite Shreya's enunciation problem. I also fell for the groovy, sleek "ninnu vethiki" in Shreya's vocals. "Nethu varaikkum" has a pleasing "pahaadi" with "mohanam " touch and Sujatha has done good justice to the song. Only the colloquial tamizh robs the song of its beauty to some extent . I forgot to mention the last female solo I really loved before "kaNNil paarvai" is "dheemi dheemi" of Shiva - 2. I want more of this IR now
Also vintage Raja was the real emperor of soft, breezy romantic duets with SPB/Janaki's immortal singing and mesmerizing ludes. A sweet surprise element always used to lurk in most of his duets like "adhi kaalai nerame" , "vaanam enge megam enge", "oru naaL unnodu oru naaL" "veLLai pura ondru", "solai poovil maalai thendral" , "nilavondru kanden en jannalil" . I miss these kind of duets and what he gives today is just a mediocre song with lame paalavi in "unakuLLe irukindren" . The last duet I liked were "poo poothadhu" of "Mumbai express " and "kajuraaho" of "ONOK" , despite its resemblance to "roja poonthottam". In "Anumanaspadam", there is a decent tune in Hamsanandhi scale "mallelo" , but something is missing in that. May be elaborately embellished interludes? [remember , Raja used to simply play around freely with scales like Hamsanandhi/panthuvaraaLi/Vasantha" earlier . Now what happened? Looks like somebody has surely curbed his free flowingness].

[Sureshs65]

thumburu,

Agree to much of what you say. There is no SPB / SJ now. That is a definite problem. It could be that Raja is not sure if people can execute his song like how SPB or KJY used to execute it. So he gives these 'modern' songs like Kajuraho etc, which are probably easier to sing. The other day I was listening to some singing competition. When the singer sang what can be called a 'hit' song of another music director, it looked as if he was doing a decent job. But when he took up 'Poonkatre' from Friends, immediately the lack of quality was apparent. So I think it is a combination of circumstances that is forcing Raja to adopt a certain style. I personally think even a singer like Hariharan did not touch the heights of SPB and KJY, when it comes to Raja songs. (I know people may disagree with me here but that is how I feel)

[app_engine]

I personally think even a singer like Hariharan did not touch the heights of SPB and KJY, when it comes to Raja songs.

Perhaps that's why he himself sings a huge % of songs, ask Bhava to sing some and "force KJY to sing some with struggle" etc :-)

:-(

[Sureshs65]

AE,

There is an interview which he gave to Telugu TV channel where he said that due to electronics, all talents were becoming lazy and how it was difficult to get them to sing even one line correctly!! I can believe him when I hear some of the singers who have become popular due to one or two songs sing in some TV program.

One reason I think his output in Malayalam is better is also probably because of the singers. Madhu Balakrishnan is one of the better singers. He sang 'Vasantha Nilavin' very well. Manjari also does a good job. M G Sreekumar is also good. For some reason Chitra is not being used much in Tamil. Maybe producers want 'new' voices? I can't think of any very good female singers in Tamil. Guess that is why he 'imports' Shreya and Sadhana? Using Bhava will always remain a point of contention with his fans and that cannot be helped.

[Plum]

"Hariharan did not touch the heights of SPB and KJY, when it comes to Raja songs. (I know people may disagree with me here but that is how I feel)"
Idhula disagree panna onnum illai - Hariharan's best came with others - maybe it is a clash of style between Raja and him. I liked Meettadha Oru Veenai though.

[irir123]

Plum - in 'meetadha oru' HH struggles in the higher octaves such as 'marandha andha paadalukku adiyedutthu kodukkavaa' whereas Mahalakshmi sang it relatively easily

[cry_sandiego]

Plum/irir123,

Meetaatha Oru was fabulous except for the high octave slips by Hariharan.. Can wait many years ( and put up with some junk) just for number like that.. beautiful Reetigowlai..

Cheers
MSKdffd

[raagas]

Both Hariharan and Mahalakshmi spent many hours of rehearsals to get their gamakas right.

c'mon guys, there are many gems, dig out them.

I liked malayalam song "Mandhaara Poo" from Vinodha Yatra. Nice Kalyani.

[Sureshs65]

Hariharan does struggle in 'Meetadha'. As Plum says, there seems to be difference in styles between Hariharan's singing and Raja's tuning.

raagas: Madhara Poo is lovely. I have this theory. Whenever Raja composes based on a raga, he rarely goes wrong. In the recent times, for some reasons, lot more of his songs are scale based. Songs in movies like 'Kadhaluku Mariyadhai', 'En Mana Vaanil', 'Manasellam', 'Shambu' etc. In Malayalam movies he has more songs where the raga is clearly enunciated. Examples would be 'Koda Manjin' (Suddha Saveri), 'Madhara Poo' (Kalyani), 'Vasanta Nila' (Sriranjani) and 'Oru Chiri Kandal' (Mayamalavagowla). You can say the same about 'Katril Varum Geethame' (Kalyani)and 'Maa Ganga' (Yamuna Kalyani) and songs of Uliyin Osai. I haven't really analyzed all recent songs to claim that my theory is correct but Raja's vision of a raga is unique and if he uses the raga explicitly, you will definitely get a good song.

BTW, can anyone tell me what ragas are these songs based on: 'Ammayennum Vaaku' (Ponmudi Puzhayorathu), 'Varavelkumo' (Pacha Kuthira), 'Kadapurathoru' (All three have the Mayamalavagowla touch but I don't think they are MMG. My feeling is that these could be Vakulabaranam but I don't have a clear picture of Vakulabaranam in my mind. So cannot be sure). 'Subhaniyogamale' (SMS) and 'Kannanukku Enna Vendum' (Sounds like Natabhairavi when the sing the swaras but is the whole song based on Natabhairavi?)

[raagas]

I dont know abt Subhaniyogamale.

Kannannukku Enna Vendum has Natabhairavi touches, but then not exactly, if we write the notes for it. 1-2 notes from Natabhairavi are replaced thereby resulting in something that cannot be slotted in a particular raaga.

Violin Vicky tried to analyze this in IR yahoogroup and he wrote the following, which i am pasting here without his permission:

"There is no shades of Ni3 (Periya Ni) in this song whatsoever. So Keeravani is ruled out.The song in my view is set in Nata Bhairavi (Normal Minor scale..); (And hence your resemblance to Keeravani is explainable as its same as Natabhairavi except Ni)This can be confirmed by the violin + Flute combo phrase towards the end of first interlude that descends from Melsthai Ga to Normal Sa and
rises back to Melsthaai Pa(So one marathon run of swaras in one cycle of Aadhi that goes as: "ga ri sa | ni dha pa | ma ga ri | sa ri ga ma
| pa dha ni sa | ri ga ma pa.. ||")Also towards the end of "Mukthai Swara" type of phrase that occurs at the end of 2nd stanza , you can
observe the wavy phrase of plain swaras sung by both the singers: "sa ri ga ma pa dha ni sari sa ni dha pa ma ga riga ma pa dha ni sa ri ga saa.."Thus the Sampoorna nature of the raaga is established beyond doubt..but I would like to highlight some very very interesting facts in this song:-
The pallavi of this song is quite intriguingly set by using only the notes Sa Ri Ga Pa Dha Sa (i.e., same as Mohanam's swaras except ga and dha are substituted by natabhairavi' s ga and dha; In other words same as using Chinna Dha in Siva Ranjani); I don't know what is the name of this raaga.. Pretty surprising.. because with such strong swaras its really strange that there are not many (or actually none) compositions in this sa ri ga pa dha sa combination; (Note: in the phrase "Ullam ennum malaro.." in pallavi,
you have an application of 'Ma'. This is the only exception.. Else Pallavi is based on this novel Sa Ri ga pa dha sa.)So Vel, CSR, Sai
Kumar and other Raaga exponents, any idea of what this raaga is..? We might be sitting on another Raaja treasure trove here. - Even though its Natabhairvai, the importance for Ri and Dha is way above the Raaga lakshanam. At times makes you feel its Dharbari kaanada; A similar feel could be observed in the song "Maniye Mani Kuyile".

[thumburu]

I normally map ragam based on my hearing experience rather than swaras. I feel the ragam of "kaNNanukku enna vendum" from "Dhanam" closer to "sarasija naabha shodhari" kruthi of "Nagagandhari" ragam. I may be corrected.
Suresh, even that "endhu paranjaalum" of "Achuvinte amma" which you recommend seems to be an average song , a rehash of "pacha mala poovu".
Nineties era also had some fascinating female solos crafted by Raja like
1. "KangalukkuL unnai ezhudu" from movie "thandhuvitten ennai". I would like to sing paeans of praise about this amazing experimental stuff from Raja in Janaki's evocative voice. The pallavi starts with some rare raga [Sounds like "Amruthavarshini" with some truncations and the charanam strikes me like a bolt from blue with a shruthi bedham to "PanthuvaraaLi" which Raja ALONE is capable of handling with such an elan!!! Just notice that tip of the first interlude string swara which prepares us for this sweet surprise.
2. "pudhidhaai paadum putham pudhu keerthanam" - May be Brindhavanasaranga or Madhyamavathy sung by Chitra from "Raman Abdullah" . Here again the charanam goes through unexpected lines with a pregnant ending and gives us the pleasure of exploration .
Now, where is this Raja?

[raagas]

I normally map ragam based on my hearing experience rather than swaras.
Nineties era also had some fascinating female solos crafted by Raja like
1. "KangalukkuL unnai ezhudu" from movie "thandhuvitten ennai". 2. "pudhidhaai paadum putham pudhu keerthanam" -

Now, where is this Raja?

Precisely right thumburu, i too map raagams by the whole hearing experience, or if i can it the 'feel-scape', although i know this has a disadvantage because differentiating some similar raagas becomes difficult. Glad to know that you also experience raagams in same way.

Thanks for suggesting two wonderful songs. I listened to the 1st song just now and it is absolutely wonderful. I knew the 2nd song before and i think it is unusual IR song.the whole sound of the song is little different. may be because of that tin-ny rhythm which runs constantly, and absence of any other prominent instrument during pallavis, that it all sounds a bit silent overall, although chitras vocals, percussions keep going. There is some strange kind of silence in Pallavis. or is it porbably the absence of any leading bass guitar and other instruments?

[Sureshs65]

thumburu,

Yes. "Enthu Paranjalum' is a rehash of 'Pacha Mala Poovu'. For some unknown reason, I love the Malayalam song. I find it very touching.

I haven't heard the "thantuvitten ennai" song yet but love the 'Raman Abdullah' song. Sounds very Brindavana Sarangaish. 'Raman Abdullah' had some very nice songs. I like most of them. It was one of those good albums of the 90s which was washed away by the Rahman wave of those times. 'En Veetu' is a lovely song with some excellent bass guitar work.

My raga knowledge is also derived from listening and I can't distinguish the swaras. So I too go with the 'feel'

[buggle]

Plum/irir123,

Meetaatha Oru was fabulous except for the high octave slips by Hariharan.. Can wait many years ( and put up with some junk) just for number like that.. beautiful Reetigowlai..

Cheers
MSKdffd

Meetatha Veenai song deserve better picturization...cannot imagine Murali and Devayanai dancing for that...song went unnoticed due to that

[ARUNPRAKASHKRISHNAN]

when i met raaja sir to invite him for my marriage in 1998 i had a one to one talk with him for 40 min which i would never forget in my life, when he narrated how he composed meetadha oru veenai.he said it took 10 hours for hariharanji to sing the way he wanted and said the song will be remembered for many years to come.he then spoke about many music composers. he was particularly praising c.r.subbaraman and said subbaraman was a genius and he was a great fan of him.

[eagle]

i had a one to one talk with him for 40 min.

Hmmm... lucky guy you are.... :) . Why don't u share more of your experience with Raaja?

[ARUNPRAKASHKRISHNAN]

sure friends. i will share.sorry. slightly busy now

[jaiganes]

Arun!
Did you play mridhangam with V.S,Narasimhan's musical experiment with string quartet?

[ARUNPRAKASHKRISHNAN]

no jaiganes. i didnt.i plated for raaja in oliyin oosai and manikandan geet maala the song sung by sankaran namboothiri.

[jaiganes]

ok!. just asking..

[cry_sandiego]

Guys,

Love the "En Veetu Jannal "song - ( Lyrics could have been better - but lyrics have been IR's achilles heal since mid 90's save the occasional Vaali gems that were few and far between ..) - I somehow feel instantaneously latched on his hindolams ( not sure how pure this particular song is in terms of the Raaga/Scale) .. Naanaga Naan Illai, Om Namasivaya, Naan Thedum sevanthi poovithu , Sadha Sadha ( ramana maalai) and many others ) - I am always puzzled by how this man could make Hindolam sway to his will to suit the various moods. .. All the above mentioned Hindolam songs are all different in terms of the moods the songs evoke.. But one thing i felt in his hindolams was always ecstasy /Getting immersed in a particular emotion.. A good example is Naanaga Naan Illai - THis one a guy is immersed in his mother's affection. Sadha Sadha evokes a mood where one is immersed in devotion.

Any hindolam fans here .. would be glad if you could point more hindolams from IR/Other MD's.

Cheers
MSK

[Hulkster]

From most of the postings we could conclude that the hasty decision of overlooking IR's post 2000 music was due to a mental-"love" for his past gems. Just like how kannunukku enna vendum is causing a analysis there are alot of songs for us to analyse in this era of IR.

I suggest that musical techies bring in some "hated" aspects of raaja such as synth which i feel there he has put to good use in some of the films. If there is a analysis for that it would be great for us as well. After all he is also a pioneer for using synth in TFM and also mastered its bass version as well. :cool:

[rajasaranam]

Guys,

Love the "En Veetu Jannal "song - ( Lyrics could have been better - but lyrics have been IR's achilles heal since mid 90's save the occasional Vaali gems that were few and far between ..) - I somehow feel instantaneously latched on his hindolams ( not sure how pure this particular song is in terms of the Raaga/Scale) .. Naanaga Naan Illai, Om Namasivaya, Naan Thedum sevanthi poovithu , Sadha Sadha ( ramana maalai) and many others ) - I am always puzzled by how this man could make Hindolam sway to his will to suit the various moods. .. All the above mentioned Hindolam songs are all different in terms of the moods the songs evoke.. But one thing i felt in his hindolams was always ecstasy /Getting immersed in a particular emotion.. A good example is Naanaga Naan Illai - THis one a guy is immersed in his mother's affection. Sadha Sadha evokes a mood where one is immersed in devotion.

Any hindolam fans here .. would be glad if you could point more hindolams from IR/Other MD's.

Cheers
MSK

http://vasudev1954.sulekha.com/blog/post/2008/04/charumathi-invoking-great-nimmathi.htm

[jaiganes]

one more big fan of 'en veettu jannal etti' song - adiyen - inspite of bhavatharini. Raaman abdullah dhaane...
Sembaruththi pennoruththi...
muthmizhae muthamizhae
great album - smooth magical songs..

and one more thing about sembaruththi pennoruththi..

That 'ho....' thing they (SPB and Chithra) do in the charanams was / is uber cool and so melodic.

[cry_sandiego]

Thanks Rajasaranam for the link. That one looks like the link from Classical IR article by Lakshmi Narayan. Kanna unai thedukiren vaa from that Nadiya movie is also a classic in Hindolam. I remember seeing that movie in the mid 80's and it was an instant hit!

Jaiganes,

Me too love that Sembarathi song.. a faced paced duet - miss SPB/Chitra these days..

All,

Happened to watch IR's Italy concert VCD only this morning. ( this was a VCD i bought from a CD shop right next to PRasad Studios during my last trip to Chennai and totally forgot abt it until this morning when i watched.. the sound quality was bad but it had it's interesting moments with IR describing the folk song background to the Italian person who was translating it. The crescendo peice on Veetukku Veedu and the 3 note peice were also good - But i thought they played Thumbi vaa too, but the VCD did not have it.

Cheers
MSK

[Sureshs65]

MSK,

What a strange coincidence. I too played the VCD today morning. Morning in India :) I have played this many times. Not the best produced VCD since they could have got more IR songs into it. The most tragic cut was the 'Mood Kapi', which is essentially based on the Tumbi Vaa song. Anyway I am happy with whatever they have given, especially the instrumental version of Azhagu Malar Aada. What a performance from the orchestra.

[cry_sandiego]

Hi Suresh,

yes. The Azhagu Malar Aada intrumental was so good. I wish IR releases more of his song tracks in Instrumental version. Was a great peice.. Coincidentally, i was browsing a blog site by Anand where he has many interlude peices of IR - Great collection.

By the way, your post 2000 analysis was interesting but thought you missed Sethu. ( maybe Sethu came before 2000 i might be wrong ). But great review of Post 2000 songs ( i am looking up some of the movies now )

Cheers
MSK

[Sureshs65]

Thanks MSK. I am not sure if Sethu was 1999 or Post 2000. I looked my data from a web site and I later realized I missed a few like 'MayaKannadi' (which AE pointed out) and 'Chidambarathil Oru Appuswamy'. In case you are searching, look for the Malayalam movies. You will not be disappointed with the songs. (Can't assure you that about the movies though :)

[Sanjeevi]

one more big fan of 'en veettu jannal etti' song - adiyen - inspite of bhavatharini. Raaman abdullah dhaane...
Sembaruththi pennoruththi...
muthmizhae muthamizhae
great album - smooth magical songs..

and one more thing about sembaruththi pennoruththi..

That 'ho....' thing they (SPB and Chithra) do in the charanams was / is uber cool and so melodic.

wov what an album, I purchased original cassete and it was sweet experience.

Moreover the flute piece comes at end of second interval in the song "puthithai ketukum" was marvalous one. Parthiban sonnathu maathiri ""Sethudalamnu thonum"

[steveaustin]

Pon Megalai. Pure Gold. Evlo peruppa ketturkkenga?

For me, it is more than gold. IR at his classical best. This album is purely for classical music lovers. If anyone needs a pure classic one, then here is the album for them. I am of the opinion that PONMEGALAI is his best classical album till date in the TFI. It is my favourite album of IR in the post-2000.

'Aanandha koothAdum arumporulE' and 'VeenA vAni nAdha roopini' by Sudha Raghunathan are pure classical gems.
'Unai thEdum rAghamidhu' (particularly 'thOgai mayil sAyal adhil nEE irundhAi') by Bombay Jayashree is another gem.

'Aalapanai' by Sadhana Sargam and Bhavadharini is too good.

My least favourite song in this album is 'Seemaiyile' which is rendered by Pushpavanam Kuppusamy.