Origin of Lord Murugan

[SoftSword]

Friends,
Quite often I involve in this argument with my friend from Andhra. I use to claim that Murugan is Thamizh Kadavul and he hailed from Thamizhnaadu, I mean the origin. But he use to confront me saying maybe the name murugan is been used by Thamizhs here, but he was referred in north indian literatures earlier to he was referred in thamizh literatures. He use to claim that he was been referred in sanskrit lit long before by the names Skandha/Subramanyaswami.

Wiki doesn give enough info though:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murugan

http://www.sanatan.org/en/festivals/hindu/ksv2.htm

So, I have none other than the people here to enlighten me about this.

Please throw some light on this.

[Shakthiprabha.]

North indians or even kannadigas do know him as Karthikeya or skantha . I understand he isn't as popular as ganpathi or shiva. The popularity is more in south :?

All of his PADAI VEEDU stay put in south.

I feel muruga is the name tamizh language calls him, that does not mean his origin or claim is restricted to tamilnadu alone.

I aint too knowledgeable here and I wait for authentic talks or posts from the learned as much as you do.

[sarna_blr]

SS, In AP and Karnataka, people call him as KUMARA-SWAMY , the son of Lord Shiva :)

there is famous temple in bangalore also

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumara_Swamy_Devasthana,_Bangalore

[sarna_blr]

AFAIK, Lord Muruga is known as ICON of Tamizh, Thamizh valarththa/kaaththa kadavul'num solvaanga :D.
I read somewhere as Lord Murugan was the founder of Madurai thamizh-changam :roll:

[SoftSword]

Thanks Prabha. and sarna.
I use to claim from the fact that, the arupadai veedu for his six faces are all located in TN..

in other lit/localities, do they consider him as a sixfacet god?

[Shakthiprabha.]

softsword,

(not joking)

May be out of anger, he split from his parents he landed in pazhani (from his origin of kailash or north india :?) and hence forth settled in tamizhnadu itself :? (though he kept visiting them often) marrying valli :?

I supp soorasamharam also happens in south india only :?

Sounds silly, but cant find more logic :?
If facts are provided we can learn more :oops:

[NOV]

in fact Murugan is not originally even Indian.... the name SKANDA should give some hints...

BUT.... rishi moolam nadhi moolam aaraya koodaadhu enbaargal... :huh:

[sarna_blr]

Valli and Dheivaanai - both are thamizh names right :?:
thamizhnaattukku vandhu 2 thamizh ponnungala kalyaanam pannikkittu thamizh kadavulaa maarittaaru :rant:
naan AP'la 2 telungu ponnungala kalyaanam panni, telungu-kadavulaa maarappOrEn :redjump: :bluejump:

[Shakthiprabha.]

Sarna,

Dont joke in literature sections :evil:

[sarna_blr]

Sarna,

Dont joke in literature sections :evil:

namma kadavul, thappaa eduththukka maattar :D

BTW ennOda pErum, avarOda pErum onnudhaan :D

[madhu]

in fact Murugan is not originally even Indian.... the name SKANDA should give some hints...

BUT.... rishi moolam nadhi moolam aaraya koodaadhu enbaargal... :huh:

ஸ்கந்தன் என்ற சம்ஸ்கிருத வார்த்தைக்கு "ஒளிக்கீற்றுப் போல பளீரென்று உதித்தவன்" என்று பொருளாம். அதுவே தமிழில் கந்தன் என்று ஆனது.

புனே நகரில் இருக்கும் பார்வதி ஹில்ஸ் கோவிலில் கார்த்திகேயன் பிரம்மச்சாரியாய் இருப்பதால் பெண்கள் தரிசனம் செய்ய சிலகாலம் தடை இருந்ததாம். ஆனால் கணபதியோ ரித்தி, சித்தி என்று இரு மனைவியருடன் இருக்கிறார்.

நம்ம ஊர்ல பிள்ளையார் இன்னும் பெண் தேடிக் கொண்டிருக்க தம்பி இரண்டு கல்யாணம் முடித்து விட்டார்.

ஆறு என்பது முருகனுடன் சம்பந்தப்பட்ட எண்ணாகும். முருகனின் மந்திரம் "சரவணபவ" எனும் ஷடாட்சரம், நக்கீரர் எழுதிய திருமுருகாற்றுப்படையில் பழனி இல்லை. ஆவினன்குடியே அறுபடை வீடாகக் கருதப்படுகிறது. ( அது பழனி மலையடிவாரத்தில் இருக்கிறது). அதுபோலவே திருத்தணிகை மலையும் அதில் இல்லை. குன்றுதோறாடல் என்று எல்லா மலைகளுமே கும்ரனின் இருப்பிடமாகக் கருதப்பட்டு அதன் அடையாளமாக திருத்தணி கொள்ளப்பட்டுள்ளது.

முருகனைப் பற்றி திருமுருக கிருபானந்த வாரியார் எழுதியுள்ள புத்தகங்களும், கல்கியில் பரமாச்சார்யர் எழுதிய முருகன் பற்றிய தொடரும் சில விவரங்களைக் கூறும். ( அவை என்னிடம் கிடைத்தால் நான் இங்கு பதிவு செய்கிறேன்)

[SoftSword]

nakkeerar ezhudhiyadhu endha nootraandil...?
did he write it based on sanskrit lit?

[sivank]

[tscii:a218a9e5ca]Upto my knowledge, Nakkeranaar wrote Thirumurugaatru padai between the 2nd BC to 2AD. Just around the period of Tholkaapiyanaar.

My persumption is that Agathiyar brought Karthikeya to South. Even in Vyasar´s Mahabaratha there are quotes about karthikeya. Agathiyar is most certainly elder than Nakkeerar or Tholkaapiyar. Infact Agathiyar wrote the frist Tamil grammar book called Agathiyam [/tscii:a218a9e5ca]

[vikra]

Murugan has been referred to in the earliest of Tamil books, Tolkappiam as seyon. Let them, who claim that Skandha is the precursor of Murugan, be asked to prove that their book is earlier than Tolkappiam.

The problem with Sanskrit literature is that the date of its composition can not be decided by its diction and grammatical usage since these have become stagnant after Panini. So one can claim great antiquity even for a book written yesterday. The date of a book is ascertained only by the events referred to in it. In the case of mythologies everthing is attributed to an unimaginably distant past. So, based on Sanskrit books one can not decide whether Murugan is a native of Tamilnadu or he came from the North .
.
In the earlier Tamil works Murugan has not been mentioned as the son of Siva. The earliest such reference is in Kalitogai, Paripadal and Thirumurugarrupadai. These three books are considered to belong to later Sangam age. This shows that Murugan, a native of Tamilnadu, got a father, a long time after his birth. Actutally Siva was an immigrant into Tamilnadu and not Murugan.
vikra

[podalangai]

The name "Murukan", according to some scholars, comes from a proto-Dravidian word for youth, freshness or beauty. There are related words in many southern Dravidian languages, but none of them refer to a deity (with the obvious exception of Malayalam). In Konda, for example, "murku" means "young men". In Telugu, "murupu" means "tender beauty" or "grace". This would obviously place his roots quite firmly amongst Tamils.

Iravatham Mahadevan takes a different view of the etymology of "Murukan". As a result, he interprets one of the signs from the Indus Valley corpus as being a reference to Murukan, which would make his worship an extremely ancient tradition of the ancestors of the Tamils. See:

http://murugan.org/research/mahadevan.htm

[aanaa]

About Lord Muruga (in brief)

Name : Murugan
Birth Place : Saravana pond
Date of birth Vaishaka month, Vishaga star
Father : Lord Shiva
Mother : Goddess Parvati
Brothers : Lord Ganapati and Lord Ayyappan
Wives : Valli, Devayani
Weapon : Shakti vel (spear)
Vehicle : Peacock
Flag : Cock
Aim of Incarnation : Destroying evil and saving Devotees
Place he resides : Devotees heart


http://www.sanatan.org/en/festivals/hindu/ksv2.htm

[Sanguine Sridhar]

[tscii:8d10edc675]

புனே நகரில் இருக்கும் பார்வதி ஹில்ஸ் கோவிலில் கார்த்திகேயன் பிரம்மச்சாரியாய் இருப்பதால் பெண்கள் தரிசனம் செய்ய சிலகாலம் தடை இருந்ததாம். ஆனால் கணபதியோ ரித்தி, சித்தி என்று இரு மனைவியருடன் இருக்கிறார்.


Two years before when I visited Pune, I went to a Murugan temple [which is of course located in a hill]. I am not sure whether it is pArvathy hills. Is it a very old temple? If so can you provide me the brief history? The temple which I went to is somewhat recently [~ 30 to 40 Years] constructed. I spoke with the manager of that temple he said only thamizh speaking people would visit that temple. If we both are talking about the same one, I am really surprised that kanni peNgal history.

My cousin says that in North India people believes that Karthik is a leader [thalapathy] of the warriors of Lord Shiva’s.

I like to know whether there is anything like
திருமுறுகாற்றுப்படை, ஸ்கந்த ஷஷ்டி கவசம் [madhu anna, Devaraya Swamigal history please?] in other languages. If not Lord Murugan is defenitely a tamizh kadavul.

[/tscii:8d10edc675]

[Sanguine Sridhar]

About Lord Muruga (in brief)

Name : Murugan
Birth Place : Saravana pond
Date of birth Vaishaka month, Vishaga star
Father : Lord Shiva
Mother : Goddess Parvati
Brothers : Lord Ganapati and Lord Ayyappan
Wives : Valli, Devayani
Weapon : Shakti vel (spear)
Vehicle : Peacock
Flag : ****
Aim of Incarnation : Destroying evil and saving Devotees
Place he resides : Devotees heart


http://www.sanatan.org/en/festivals/hindu/ksv2.htm

Hello! avunga DheivAnai-nga, Rajakumaran kOchukapOraru!

[madhu]

Becks..

முருகன் தமிழ்க் கடவுள்தான்.. சந்தேகமெ இல்லை..

கார்த்திக்-தான் நார்த் இண்டியன் கடவுள் :mrgreen:

[madhu]

There are slokas like "subramanya bujangam" in sanskrit. But its created in south india only.

Anyway... the sanskrit book 'AmarakOsam' written by Amarasimman ( who was really a Jain ) is having Murugan in it.
And also Kalidasa a north Indian poet has written "Kumara sambhavam" which describes the birth of Lord Muruga.

[Shakthiprabha.]

Wasn't kaLidasa a bengali?
North indian poet aa :?

[SoftSword]

murugan endha oor... karthik endha oorunu kaekkala...
where was he referred from first.. like origin.. or like which literature carried his character first...

[NOV]

.... rishi moolam nadhi moolam aaraya koodaadhu enbaargal... :huh:

[SoftSword]

.... rishi moolam nadhi moolam aaraya koodaadhu enbaargal... :huh:

enakku mattum idhula periya interesta???
i want something to prove to my friend... so i need some info... or otherwise why the heck should i care to worry abt this... :cry2:

[Shakthiprabha.]

When shiva is from kailash, parvathi is himavan putri, I doubt if skantha was independatly created in tn. Origin must have been where it should have been.

[P_R]

I have heard that in the north Karthik is considered the son of Agni

[SoftSword]

south indian lit might even tell that murugan was born here rite?
who actually created that character... murugan/skandha/karthik watever...? was it someone from north/south

[NOV]

vadivEl, he is not even from India.

[Sanjeevi]

In ancient days, actually, no country system was there. If something happened in current tamilnadu land or near locations, then only if we call it belongs to tamils, I pity you.

[SoftSword]

In ancient days, actually, no country system was there. If something happened in current tamilnadu land or near locations, then only if we call it belongs to tamils, I pity you.

boss.. am not concerned more abt the locations...
in which literature he appeared first.. in tamil or in sanskrit or something else...

nov... apram naan visa stamping pathi ellaam kaepaen....

[NOV]

vadivEl, you must understand the tamil's mind. emmadhamum sammadhamnu vera evanum sonnadhu illa.
we are totally open minded and accept everything and everyone, including gods.

we even accept past human beings as gods.

[SoftSword]

adappaavi nov... naan edho madha sandai undu panra ranjeku pesareenga...
i just need to know abt this thats all...

matthapadi kadavul'nra vaarthayae enakku romba dhooram...

[NOV]

vadivEl, you must understand the tamil's mind. emmadhamum sammadhamnu vera evanum sonnadhu illa.
we are totally open minded and accept everything and everyone, including gods.

we even accept past human beings as gods.This IS about Murugan. ;)

[madhu]

inge edha pathi discussion nadakkudhu ?

edhukkum indha blog-aiyum padichu vaiyunga..

http://controversialhistory.blogspot.com/2007/09/skanda-muruga-karthikeya-shanmuga.html

http://controversialhistory.blogspot.com/2007/09/myth-of-murugan-tamil-god.html

[NOV]

I hope now Vadivel understands my mention of rishimoolam, etc. :sigh2:

[SoftSword]

inge edha pathi discussion nadakkudhu ?

edhukkum indha blog-aiyum padichu vaiyunga..

http://controversialhistory.blogspot.com/2007/09/skanda-muruga-karthikeya-shanmuga.html

http://controversialhistory.blogspot.com/2007/09/myth-of-murugan-tamil-god.html

madhu...
andha rendu blogayum padichum naan thaedina vidai kidaikkama dhaan hubla periyavanga kitta kaekkalaamnu thread open pannen...
:(

nov... as u said, maybe its wrong to investigate rishimoolam...
but for now thats my task now... i cant give it up :(

[madhu]

I think.. Amarakosam itself is very old. In tamil kanda puranam is relatively new. And thats again originally written in sanskrit only.

IMHO Karthik is the orginal and Murugan is the modified and refined version.

[P_R]

The name "Murukan", according to some scholars, comes from a proto-Dravidian word for youth, freshness or beauty. There are related words in many southern Dravidian languages, but none of them refer to a deity (with the obvious exception of Malayalam). In Konda, for example, "murku" means "young men". In Telugu, "murupu" means "tender beauty" or "grace". This would obviously place his roots quite firmly amongst Tamils.

Iravatham Mahadevan takes a different view of the etymology of "Murukan". As a result, he interprets one of the signs from the Indus Valley corpus as being a reference to Murukan, which would make his worship an extremely ancient tradition of the ancestors of the Tamils. See:

http://murugan.org/research/mahadevan.htm

Interesting.



Nk. mural: to wither.

Kur. murdna: to be dried to excess.
Ga. murg: to bend; murgen: bent; murug: to bend down.

Go. moorga: humpbacked
Kui. mrupka: to kill, murder.
Malt. murke: to cut into bits.


What languages are these ?


Ta. murukku: to destroy, kill; murunku : to be destroyed.
Ta. murancu: to be old, ancient; muri: antiquity.
!!

[madhu]

Hindi-la murga-nA sEval...

sEval kodi vachiruppadhAl avarai murugA-nu koopidarAngannu kooda solluvAngO :yessir:

[podalangai]

inge edha pathi discussion nadakkudhu ?

edhukkum indha blog-aiyum padichu vaiyunga..

http://controversialhistory.blogspot.com/2007/09/skanda-muruga-karthikeya-shanmuga.html

http://controversialhistory.blogspot.com/2007/09/myth-of-murugan-tamil-god.html

Madhu, that blog is written with a view to emphasise and glorify Karnataka and Kannada's position in India at the expense of the rest of Southern India. According to him, just about every major dynasty of southern India - Ikshavku, Rashtrakuta, Satavahana, even the Pallavas - were Kannadigas.

The author censors critical comments which he can't answer - I've commented on several entries over the past 18 months, and not one has appeared on the blog.

So take everything there with a huge helping of salt.

[podalangai]

Nk. mural: to wither.

Kur. murdna: to be dried to excess.
Ga. murg: to bend; murgen: bent; murug: to bend down.

Go. moorga: humpbacked
Kui. mrupka: to kill, murder.
Malt. murke: to cut into bits.


What languages are tese ?
Various Dravidian languages.

Nk. - Naikri (spoken in AP / Maharashtra)
Kur. - Kurukh (spoken by the Oraon in the Chotanagpur area)
Ga. - Gadaba (also called Ollari, spoken in Orissa)
Go - Gondi (spoken by the Gonds all over central India)
Kui - Kui (spoken by the Khonds in Orissa, also called Khondi)
Malt. - Malto (also called Paharia, spoken in Jharkhand and Bihar)

Many are slowly dying out, so I suppose we are fortunate that they have been recorded and described.

[SoftSword]

inge edha pathi discussion nadakkudhu ?

edhukkum indha blog-aiyum padichu vaiyunga..

http://controversialhistory.blogspot.com/2007/09/skanda-muruga-karthikeya-shanmuga.html

http://controversialhistory.blogspot.com/2007/09/myth-of-murugan-tamil-god.html

Madhu, that blog is written with a view to emphasise and glorify Karnataka and Kannada's position in India at the expense of the rest of Southern India. According to him, just about every major dynasty of southern India - Ikshavku, Rashtrakuta, Satavahana, even the Pallavas - were Kannadigas.

The author censors critical comments which he can't answer - I've commented on several entries over the past 18 months, and not one has appeared on the blog.

So take everything there with a huge helping of salt.

thanks for ur contribution...
please provide if u can help more on the topic....

[P_R]

Nk. mural: to wither.

Kur. murdna: to be dried to excess.
Ga. murg: to bend; murgen: bent; murug: to bend down.

Go. moorga: humpbacked
Kui. mrupka: to kill, murder.
Malt. murke: to cut into bits.


What languages are tese ?
Various Dravidian languages.

Nk. - Naikri (spoken in AP / Maharashtra)
Kur. - Kurukh (spoken by the Oraon in the Chotanagpur area)
Ga. - Gadaba (also called Ollari, spoken in Orissa)
Go - Gondi (spoken by the Gonds all over central India)
Kui - Kui (spoken by the Khonds in Orissa, also called Khondi)
Malt. - Malto (also called Paharia, spoken in Jharkhand and Bihar)

Many are slowly dying out, so I suppose we are fortunate that they have been recorded and described.

Thank You podalangai.
Just curious, which Dravidian languages which is/was spoken Northernmost in India.

Is there any easy thumb-rules for identifying Dravidian languages - or are they discernible from other languages only by some nuances only apparent on serious linguistic studies ?

[NOV]

I was at Batu Caves, Kuala Lumpur, yesterday and took this shot.... the tallest Murugan statue in the world.

btw, is Murugan now Malaysian? :lol:

[html:8c1d01fb86]
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h42/N_O_V/DSC00058.jpg
[/html:8c1d01fb86]

[sivank]

Very nice picture velan. Would really love to visit Batu caves. How old is that temple?

[NOV]

:ty: sivan. taken on my cell phone! even I cannot believe its clarity :shock:

The temple is very old, in Malaysian standards, not Indian standards. :D bulit before 1891, and first made with wooden steps.

Next weekend is thaipoosam festival and its a public holiday here... major clebration in Batu caves.

Wikipedia says:

"The cave is one of the most popular Hindu shrines outside India, dedicated to Lord Murugan. It is the focal point of Hindu festival of Thaipusam in Malaysia which attracts over 1.5 million pilgrims yearly, making it one of the largest annual gatherings anywhere in the world."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batu_Caves

[sivank]

Is there any sthala puraanam about it. OTH, tell me about Muruga in Malaysia. How long people pray to him, is there any old stories about it?

[NOV]

no old stories sivan :lol:
He is directly imported from India and some ppl like to call batu caves or baththu malai as Ezhaam padai.

indians in malaysia are a recent phenomenon - hardly 2 centuries ago. majority of them were brought from TN to work in the rubber estates. as is norm for tamils, kOvil illaadha ooril kudi irukka vEndaam, they brought along all thier gods and today temples abound all over malaysia.

we even have a south east asian tirupathi in klang. :lol:

today many chinese worship at hindu temples and in fact during thaipoosam in penang, almost half the kavadi carriers will be non hindus, mainly chinese.
and australian convert who calls himself Carl Vadivelu makes an annual pilgrimage for this festival/

[sivank]

Velan, what about the old tamil culture during the Sri Vijaya Empire, which influcenced temples like Ankor Wat etc. Even thailand has lots of Tamil culture in it

[NOV]

none so far has been discovered. but then a lot of politics is going on here and history has been revised with sejarah melayu (malay annals) only beginning from the 15th century.

but there are lots of instances where indian history can be seen here, from places like kedah (kadaaram), muar (moo-aar ie three rivers), to malay culture which is almost synonymous to indian culture and of course the vocabulary.

[sivank]

[tscii:e8932b929c]wasn´t malaysia called swarna dhweebam earlier[/tscii:e8932b929c]

[NOV]

swarna boomi.

in fact the malay word for malay is melayu... and sounds like tamil malai-yoor.... malaysia is hilly. singapore is of course singa-pooram

[sivank]

dhweebam na bhoomi nu artham. appo irundha indha culture ennaachu

[NOV]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_place_names_in_Malaysia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_Malaysians

[NOV]

quite comprehensive, but dont know how accurate... http://www.tamilnation.org/diaspora/malaysia.htm

[sivank]

very interesting to read. Thanks for the Link velan

[podalangai]

indians in malaysia are a recent phenomenon - hardly 2 centuries ago. majority of them were brought from TN to work in the rubber estates. as is norm for tamils, kOvil illaadha ooril kudi irukka vEndaam, they brought along all thier gods and today temples abound all over malaysia.

What about the Chitty Melakas (Indian Peranakans)? They retained Hinduism through the centuries, I think, and even built some temples... did they have a tradition of Murugan worship?

[NOV]

Chittys are immigrants of the 15th century. They married Malay women and assimiliated with the local population, taking on thier culture, language, food, clothing, etc. But as you have mentioned, remained Hindus.

Today, the Chittys number only around 2000 and have married into later Tamil families and have become almost completely assimiliated with the Tamils.

As far as I know, there is only one Chitty Temple and its called Poyyatha Vinaayagar temple.

some info: http://www.geocities.com/mlkachittii1u2/dpage6

earlier discussion: http://tfmpage.mayyam.com/hub/viewlite.php?t=2118

[podalangai]

Thanks NOV. That's a very useful website.

I also found this photo of a Chitty temple in Gajah Berang:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/44/Chitty_Temple.png

Is this an Amman temple? It's architecture looks more South Indian than the Poyyatha Vinayagar temple.

[sar]

Although Murugan is God for Tamil Land with all six abodes in it, reliable sources suggest that the God's birth place is near Kailash mountains in North India... see this article below about Saravana Poigai sourced from Palani.org...


Saravanap Poigai is the name of a pool in the Himâlayas, from whose waters the divine child, Muruga, is believed to have emerged. Hence the name Saravana Bhava. Saravanap Poigai pools in Muruga shrines are sources of redemption. Accumulated sins are thought to be destroyed by a dip here. As fire consumes fuel, so too this sacred pool consumes the sins of the wicked.

The Saravana Poikai at Tiru Avinankudi has drawn uncounted millions to its banks. It has a hoary tradition and a bath or at least a symbolic use of its waters over your head is a prerequisite for entering the sanctum sanctorum. Bath taps are provided at separate enclosures for men and women.

Also I used think that 'Saravana' was a Tamil originated word as the name prevails only in Tamil Nadu... but slight a bit disappointed to learn that it could actually be different from what I had thought earlier (about first part of my own name)...

Saravana: (Sanskrit) "Thicket of reeds." (Source: Hinduism Dictionary)

Mythologically, a sacred Himalayan pond where Lord Karttikeya was nurtured; esoterically understood as the lake of divine essence, or primal consciousness.

[NOV]

enna kodumai sar idhu?
you thought saravana is tamil? :shock:

except for vadivelan and murugan, I dont think any of his other names are purely tamil.

[SoftSword]

enna kodumai sar idhu?
you thought saravana is tamil? :shock:

except for vadivelan and murugan, I dont think any of his other names are purely tamil.

thanks guys for reviving this thread!!
and now can we call murugan as thamizh kadavul or not? :)

[SoftSword]

no old stories sivan :lol:
He is directly imported from India and some ppl like to call batu caves or baththu malai as Ezhaam padai.

indians in malaysia are a recent phenomenon - hardly 2 centuries ago. majority of them were brought from TN to work in the rubber estates. as is norm for tamils, kOvil illaadha ooril kudi irukka vEndaam, they brought along all thier gods and today temples abound all over malaysia.

we even have a south east asian tirupathi in klang. :lol:

today many chinese worship at hindu temples and in fact during thaipoosam in penang, almost half the kavadi carriers will be non hindus, mainly chinese.
and australian convert who calls himself Carl Vadivelu makes an annual pilgrimage for this festival/

you know why they say this right...
cos, temples were meant to build with high ceilings, strong roof, and with heavy stones thru which can sustain most of the natural disasters... so if u live in a place where u have a temple, you can hide in there during the disaster time, infact the whole village can be accomodated in there as temples usually were too big...

even recently we use to hear that during flood times, govt protects the people by keeping them in temples and schools;

[Sudhaama]

.
.
Birth-place of MURUHA / SUBRAHMANYA is... Ganga-River... in North-India


I have already written in detail.... under my Tamil Serial Article, titled...

....THAMIZH-MARHAI THIRUVAAYMOZHI... in Our Hub-Magazine

... about Viswamithra's narration to Rama-Lakshmana... showing the Baby Subrahmanya's place of birth....

....at the holy GANGA RIVER BANK.

....according to Valmiki Ramayana..

Because Parvathi choses so... since He is KADHIRESA... in Tamil... .and AGNIBHOOH in Sanskrit... meaning that He is born from Fire-Spark.

Such an enormous heat of a holy spark from God Siva... cannot be borne by Earth. So Ganga-devi took the responsibility to cool it down in parts... then hand over as SIX Babies to Krithika Maids...

..finally unified as One baby... named as Shanmuka (ARUMUHA)... according to authentic 18 Puranhas.
.
All these Divine processes took place, at Ganga River and its Bank.
.
.

[sar]

enna kodumai sar idhu?
you thought saravana is tamil? :shock:

except for vadivelan and murugan, I dont think any of his other names are purely tamil.

what about Senthil, Kumaran, Muthuk Kumaran, kathirgaaman, kaDamban etc

http://www.indianhindunames.com/names-of-god-murugan-karthik.htm

[PARAMASHIVAN]

Murugan is not a Thamizh kadaval as widely known, Muruga is known in Sanskrit as Skanda / Karthikey :!:

His name was mentioned in Mahabhrath ! The name 'Murugan' is a thamizh name though. Lord muruga is widely worshipped amongst the dravidians , while a very few Aryans worship Lord Muruga

[PARAMASHIVAN]

Intha Thamizh kadavul, Singala kadavul, Engilisu kadavul... sabbaa.

If Kadavul is the supreme soul ,. responsible for the creation, maintenance and destruction of the cosmos, how can this supreme soul just belong to particular sect created by humans

Thirunthukkapa :sigh2:

[sar]

Agree with you at the same time disagree with you paramashivan... I agree that God is common for all lands and languages.. but the word Tamil God is more like figure of speech because all of his abodes most main abodes arupadai veedugal is in Tamil Land... and all the tamil people worship the God in those abodes only popular in tamil nadu... hence I think its more out of love and affection towards the God we call Lord Muruga as Tamil God... could be nothing more than that... infact it has been an issue internet youtube... 'why northindians do not pray giving proper homage to Lord Skanda-Karthikeya' Watch - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3W9NB2xZnSs... Since also there is one more reason - It is beleived that in the puranas that Lord Muruga HIMSELF is the first formost teacher of the TAMIL... Hence its not wrong denoting as Tamil God but its not apt either for the reason you ve highlighted... might be need to reform the phrase... thanks very much

[iniyamalar]

[tscii:cf3c581990]I am a newbie..

Please regard my post as a collective suggestions from a (very) junior researcher.

Before dwelling onto the discussion of whether murugan is a tamil god or north indian god, one should think about the antiquity of the tamil people and their corresponding sanskrit counterparts.

There are innumerable ideas and hypothesis floating around these days( i always believe a good hypothesis has a better chance to be a fact) about tamil being the oldest language.

It could very well have been the first developed language of the world.
Coming to sanskrit, it is a formulated language while tamil is a natural language in which linguistic traditions predates the grammatical tradition. Word formations based on sound and visual forms "oli oLi saarntha peyargaL".started off with the only intention being communication and later developed for grammar..

It could have been possible that it wast the tamil people who first formulated sanskrit for other purposes(vedic purposes).
In valmiki ramayanam..

“अहं हय अतितनुश चैव वनरश च विशेषतः
वाचं चॊथाहरिष्यामि मानुषीम इह संस्कृताम”
says hanuman on seeing seetha was in a confusion to choose a language to speak with her.
he says ' if i speak in sanskrit she will think me as ravana in disguise, so i shall speak in manusha basha'

It was regarded as the colloqial form of sanskrit until one tamil scholar(don't remember whether it was Ma.Ra or neelakanta shastri or some one else) pin pointed that he chose to speak in madhura basha, manusha basha which is tamil since tamil was the spoken/ common man language while sanskrit was the learned man's language on those days..

Even agathiya who hailed from gujarat learned tamil in northindia, before coming to tamilagam and not in tamilnadu.

Ok we warded off too far..

So since we can assume that tamil preceded/co existed with sanskrit we can safely think that while the sanskrit names of muruga was formed he was already there in tamil form.

Muruga is even compared with dyonisius (greek or thracian god.)
I even read a thesis discussing murugan's similarity between alexander..

(yeah.. i know..ippavae kanna kattuthu..)

And i think almost all of you know that murukaeruthal, veRiyaadal are some of the most ancient religious practises among tamil people. And rooster( the symbol of lord muruga- who is a war general) is an accepted totemic symbol of war all over the ancient civilisations. Vael being the oldest form of weapon found here.

i hope my post was useful at least to a bit..

Thank you for listening to me..

[/tscii:cf3c581990]

[Harish Kumar]

Lord Murugan pervades all of earth and the Universe. When we say a particular place/state as home of that Deity, what it means is He/She is worshipped and revered most by the people of that place. He does specially reside in that place, because he is bound by the love of his devotees, so we can say Tamil Nadu is the home of Lord Murugan. But he is present all over India and also the World.

[Harish Kumar]

By the way, I am looking for a reference in Tamil Literature where Murugan is praised as the Father of Lord Shiva himself. Can you tell me in which literary work ?

[inazerowmo]

vadivEl, he is not even from India.

Where is he from then?

[Sunil_M88]

By the way, I am looking for a reference in Tamil Literature where Murugan is praised as the Father of Lord Shiva himself. Can you tell me in which literary work ?

Anbu Sir,

I hope you're reading this.

See, this is what annoys me :( What's all this profane hyperbole (result of polytheism) about? There can never be competition between gods as god is one.

[anbu_kathir]

Anbu Sir,

I hope you're reading this.

See, this is what annoys me :( What's all this profane hyperbole (result of polytheism) about? There can never be competition between gods as god is one.

Sunil Sir,

As I said, the Consciousness which shines within and through all these divinities, and indeed in all beings of the Universe is the one and only Lord alone. Because of people having different inherent characteristics, they are all born with certain tendencies towards certain types of divinities and certain types of devotees. The scriptures (Puranas/Itihasas) themselves praise one form over another. When they are praising Maheshwara, they will say that He is above all the other gods. He existed prior to all of them and gave birth to them. When they are praising Mahavishnu, they will say that He is beyond all comprehension, even that of Shiva and other gods.

Because *equal* weight is given in tradition to all of these scriptures, it is obvious that it is not to spread any sectarian message that the scriptures talk in this way (i.e., comparing divinities). They do so only because people are many and varied, and they are to be uplifted in ways that are best adapted according to each of them. This is to cater to the pecularities of the people, thats all. The scriptures themselves do not really say that one form is better than another.


For example, suppose there are 3 children in a family, and all have some trouble studying. Suppose each one enjoys a different kind of sweet, Then the all compassionate mother might offer a reward of that particular sweet the child likes, in order that they might study. This does not mean the mother favours one sweet over another. In order to make the children study, the mother who knows about her children, offers the specific kind of sweet to that specific child. In this way, the development of each of her children is ensured. Hinduism too works in the same way.

My humble suggestion is not to discard any religion (actually, anything for that matter) without a thorough investigation. Especially in religious matters, it would be disservice to oneself if we discard or condemn without having gathered sufficient knowledge (meaning a reasonably thorough understanding and the local/global perspectives) from a credible source (meaning a teacher, who himself or herself has gathered this understanding). Of course this is not to say one should not have questions, but just that one should be open enough for understanding.

Love and Light.

[sar]

By the way, I am looking for a reference in Tamil Literature where Murugan is praised as the Father of Lord Shiva himself. Can you tell me in which literary work ?

Not exactly as far as I have heard or come across, but definitely know that Lord Muruga is same as and representation of First most Shiva - please refer to this Bhakthi Song: URL- http://www.kaumaram.com/poems/shanmuganayagan.html written about the Six Faced God, in which you will find exactly what I have mentioned above.

thanks

[Nasc]

SS not sure if the question is still un answered.

some interesting read on murugan/kadamban - skanda/karthikeya rishi moolam....

http://karkanirka.org/2008/04/13/murugan1/

from what the authors has researched - murugan and skanda are 2 different gods--having their own identity in north and south .until the mash up arnd 4th to 9th ad happened.
take a look the blog also has link to the extensive research

please also read - http://karkanirka.org/2008/05/11/murugan1-2/ which claims murukan was much earlier to the vedic time(ie before the indus valley c and was worshipped as a spirit.