Big Bang!

[pavalamani pragasam]

While the world waits with fingers crossed to watch the result of an expensive attempt to recreate Big Bang, for an ignoramus like me this is the right place for getting educated with enlightening information on the subject. Please let me understand the theory from ABC. The cosmos science is definitely interesting. Let there not be chaos in the process of our getting educated! :wink: Yes, let us discuss without religious fireworks disrupting true search for knowledge. And let the explanations be very very simple for the benefit of very very lay people like me! Now, let there be light!

[Meera-ssg]

[tscii]herez a simple link which talks on singularity before bigbang!

______

Singularity

Well, it's hard to say, and even harder to understand. Singularities are beyond our current understanding of physics, and are said to be infinitely small, infinitely hot and infinitely dense points in space-time (everything around us). That's what is believed to be in the centre of a Black Hole.

So, our universe, in the beginning of the beginning, was a singularity. Where was the singularity? Well, the singularity was all that was there. Even space and time weren't in existence before the Big Bang occurred.

Where this singularity came from, know one knows.

So, everything exploded out of this “singularity”?

Well, it didn't really explode, as the name suggest. It just expanded. Try to image a tiny speck of sand on your fingertip. That is the singularity. Image it expanding, until it is a huge boulder, millions of times the size of the original speck of sand. That is, in principal, what happened around 13 and half billion years ago.

_________

After the expansion, the universe started to cool. And in-fact it is still cooling to this day.

Its said from this singularity big bang resulted, due to which duality arose and like the tree kept expanding iwth its nodes

http://www.socyberty.com/Philosophy/The-Big-Bang-Theory-Simplified.212433

__

Its inconceivable! and that is GOD. (non scientific term)

[pavalamani pragasam]

Thanx, Meera-ssg! But can't say I am wiser now! :(

[pavalamani pragasam]

Awe is the word for my understanding of the word, 'science'! And only very simple, down-to-earth, step-by-step explanations will find way into my comprehension. Like, for instance, how my class teacher in my tender years who explained the phenomenon of eclipse by making 3 of our classmates stand in front of us representing sun, moon and earth and make them change position clearly demonstrating a miraculous celestial event!

[Meera-ssg]

Neither are we pavazhamani!

Its too difficult to grasp. Practice may be needed. But then, therez none who has understood it in totality!

Upanishad says

"one who comprehends it (god or science or origin or state before bigbang) as known and not known comprehends it right"

[pavalamani pragasam]

Like 'kaNdavar viNdilar, viNdavar kaNdilar'? :roll:

[Meera-ssg]

PRecisely :)

Those even think they have understood, probably have just seen a particle of the entire totality :?

not sure!

[sarna_blr]

After the expansion, the universe started to cool. And in-fact it is still cooling to this day.

Its said from this singularity big bang resulted, due to which duality arose and like the tree kept expanding iwth its nodes

http://www.socyberty.com/Philosophy/The-Big-Bang-Theory-Simplified.212433

__

Its inconceivable! and that is GOD. (non scientific term)

and

1...so universe stopped expanding :roll:

2...started cooling and still cooling :?

and then wt is global warming :confused2:

and am expecting a reply as PP mam quoted
And let the explanations be very very simple for the benefit of very very lay people like me! Now, let there be light!

[Meera-ssg]

I am really excited to know whats happening with that LHC experiment! I wish therez ongoing commentry on the same :D

[pavalamani pragasam]

Sure there are Ph.D hubbers who can educate LKG hubbers like us!

[Meera-ssg]

Yes, ppl who are versed with 'particle physics' would be more knowledgeable. I wish we get more feed back on this

[pavalamani pragasam]

I am really excited to know whats happening with that LHC experiment! I wish therez ongoing commentry on the same :D

Same here, having finished reading Brown's 'Angels and Demons' just about a week ago! :D

[directhit]

The latest astronomical observations suggest ordinary matter - such as the galaxies, gas, stars and planets - makes up just 4% of the Universe.

The rest is dark matter (23%) and dark energy (73%). Physicists think the LHC could provide clues about the nature of this mysterious "stuff". :oops:

[Meera-ssg]

Sarna,

Universe comprises of so many galaxies and planets where as global warming is just for our earth alone :?

I assume all our ignorance is gonna be on spotlight the more we talk on this :lol2:

[directhit]

this link and the video on the top part is tooo good!! :thumbsup:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7534862.stm

[sarna_blr]

Sarna,

1.. Universe comprises of so many galaxies and planets where as global warming is just for our earth alone :?

2..I assume all our ignorance is gonna be on spotlight the more we talk on this :lol2:

1... now understood :) our Earth is not even 1 % in the universe :oops: so global warming doesnt affect universe :)

2.. ofcourse :ashamed: but we will get enlighted 8-)

[pavalamani pragasam]

:exactly:

[Meera-ssg]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/bigbang/

hahaha they even created a webpage for it!
no news shared yet.

[selvakumar]

<dig> On the Hadron collidor
http://blog.wired.com/geekdad/2008/09/the-large-hadro.html
:rotfl: </dig>

[Meera-ssg]

Those responses are good enough to mould into a nice thriller on 'doomsday'

[selvakumar]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7604293.stm

'Big Bang' experiment starts well

[Meera-ssg]

http://www.rte.ie/live/

live broadcast

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0909/cern.html

schedule

[app_engine]

Some reports:

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/news/international/Scientists_launch_Big_Bang_experiment.html?siteSec t=143&sid=9683100&cKey=1221070152000&ty=ti

http://dinamalar.com/fpnnews.asp?News_id=1751&cls=row4

[Bipolar]

"Particle Physics: A Very Short Introduction" (http://www.amazon.com/Particle-Physics-Very-Short-Introduction/dp/0192804340/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1221087308&sr=8-1) by Frank Close (Oxford University Press, 2004). Available here (http://rs223.rapidshare.com/files/96090108/Particle_Physics_-_A_Very_Short_Introduction.pdf).

[MrIndia]

seval sanda maathiri rendu proton-a tube la vuttutu vedika paakuraanga :wink:

somehow i find this interesting.though I am not familiar with particle physics.

or

world gets sucked into black hole and we will not know where we will be or what happened to us.

no body will know what happened. Wonderful :oops:

[pavalamani pragasam]

Do we :shaking: or :bluejump: at the prospect?

[anbu_kathir]

Do we :shaking: or :bluejump: at the prospect?

Neither. Its an experiment and we just take the observations at face value. If it turns out that we end up getting sucked into a black hole, it wouldn't matter because we wouldn't know and there would be none left anyway. :twisted:

Love and Light.

[sarna_blr]

Do we :shaking: or :bluejump: at the prospect?

Neither. Its an experiment and we just take the observations at face value. If it turns out that we end up getting sucked into a black hole, it wouldn't matter because we wouldn't know and there would be none left anyway. :twisted:

Love and Light.

:x :x :x enakku innum kalyaanamE aagala :huh:

[anbu_kathir]

Do we :shaking: or :bluejump: at the prospect?

Neither. Its an experiment and we just take the observations at face value. If it turns out that we end up getting sucked into a black hole, it wouldn't matter because we wouldn't know and there would be none left anyway. :twisted:

Love and Light.

:x :x :x enakku innum kalyaanamE aagala :huh:

:lol: Adhunaala ennanga? Black hole kku andha pakkam alternate universe irukkum. Luck irundha onga favourite herionE kidaipaangaalO ennavO. :P.. nalla kadavulA vEndikkOnga.

Love and Light.

[thamizhvaanan]

Do we :shaking: or :bluejump: at the prospect?

Neither. Its an experiment and we just take the observations at face value. If it turns out that we end up getting sucked into a black hole, it wouldn't matter because we wouldn't know and there would be none left anyway. :twisted:

Love and Light.

:x :x :x enakku innum kalyaanamE aagala :huh:

:rotfl:

dont worry sarna.. we would cease to exist only in this universe whereas we might continue to exist in some other dimension.. perhaps ur anti-person will get married elsewhere in the universe :lol:

[Meera-ssg]

Someone can explain about quantum theory while talking about alternate dimensions :D

Sarna,

who knows, u are destined to marry the person u want in another planet

:lol2:

This is so exciting.

I personally however feel, nature cannot and will not reveal itself so easily. However it might open a way to so many inventions and we may get lil more wiser :?

[Meera-ssg]

"Particle Physics: A Very Short Introduction" (http://www.amazon.com/Particle-Physics-Very-Short-Introduction/dp/0192804340/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1221087308&sr=8-1) by Frank Close (Oxford University Press, 2004). Available here (http://rs223.rapidshare.com/files/96090108/Particle_Physics_-_A_Very_Short_Introduction.pdf).

Thanks :ty: I shall read and get back on this.

[thamizhvaanan]

Someone can explain about quantum theory while talking about alternate dimensions :D

Sarna,

who knows, u are destined to marry the person u want in another planet

:lol2:

This is so exciting.

I personally however feel, nature cannot and will not reveal itself so easily. However it might open a way to so many inventions and we may get lil more wiser :?

I am afraid we wud have to summon Einstein from his grave :lol:

A very good (excellent) primer would be Stephen Hawkings "A Brief history of time" .. I have skimmed through few chapters of it... and trying to summon enough interest to take me through the rest of it :P

[thamizhvaanan]

Speaking of alternate universe.. One can watch this video to have a real cool understanding.. Its good. :)

http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=L7JIjQLJYm8

[anbu_kathir]

I personally however feel, nature cannot and will not reveal itself so easily. However it might open a way to so many inventions and we may get lil more wiser :?

:P Nature has a will ?

[thamizhvaanan]

I personally however feel, nature cannot and will not reveal itself so easily. However it might open a way to so many inventions and we may get lil more wiser :?

:P Nature has a will ?

adhaan iyarkai'oda soth'a ellam naama azhichuttu irukomey.. adhuku aduthu will irundha enna illati enna :P

[anbu_kathir]

I personally however feel, nature cannot and will not reveal itself so easily. However it might open a way to so many inventions and we may get lil more wiser :?

:P Nature has a will ?

adhaan iyarkai'oda soth'a ellam naama azhichuttu irukomey.. adhuku aduthu will irundha enna illati enna :P

Ada raamaa.. naan kEttadhu andha 'will' illai :P

[anbu_kathir]

Big bang threada ippadi Big chat threadaa aakitOme...

[thamizhvaanan]

Anbu,

Have you seen that 10th dimension video?

[pavalamani pragasam]

I personally however feel, nature cannot and will not reveal itself so easily. However it might open a way to so many inventions and we may get lil more wiser :?

:P Nature has a will ?

Destiny???

[pavalamani pragasam]

Today's newspaper reports a suicide of a girl who feared to face the catastrophe! :frightened:

[Shakthiprabha.]

Today's newspaper reports a suicide of a girl who feared to face the catastrophe! :frightened:

:roll:

[Shakthiprabha.]

[

I am afraid we wud have to summon Einstein from his grave :lol:


I wish ! I wish! sigh :D

[Shakthiprabha.]

"Particle Physics: A Very Short Introduction" (http://www.amazon.com/Particle-Physics-Very-Short-Introduction/dp/0192804340/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1221087308&sr=8-1) by Frank Close (Oxford University Press, 2004). Available here (http://rs223.rapidshare.com/files/96090108/Particle_Physics_-_A_Very_Short_Introduction.pdf).

The pdf says......

////////Between the compact central nucleus and the remote whirling
electrons, atoms are mostly empty space. That is what many books
assert, and it is true as concerns the particles that make up an atom,
but that is only half the story. That space is filled with electric and
magnetic force fields///////


if we say, what occupies space are energy fields, gravitational, electromagnetic etc then, is this the nature of space? Space is something which is filed with energy and etc forces?

Suppose we take away or abstruct or block these forces, then there is a VOID? is that right? That is what is prevelant in black holes? void (vacuum) If all these are not there, then can we say space also stops existing?

What is the nature of this space? and what is the nature of void or vacuum? (if there is anything called existence there?)

anyone?

[pavalamani pragasam]

Can anything be more mind-boggling? or mesmerising? :roll:

[anbu_kathir]

I personally however feel, nature cannot and will not reveal itself so easily. However it might open a way to so many inventions and we may get lil more wiser :?

:P Nature has a will ?

Destiny???

Well... at a quantum level, Nature is governed by probability. I don't know what a scientific definition for destiny could be, but this is by all means a bit shocking.

Love and Light.

[anbu_kathir]

Anbu,

Have you seen that 10th dimension video?

I had seen the video, thamizh. But sila vishayangal seriya puriyala. I mean, how exactly are the dimensions increasing. There seems to be an improper jump from 4th - 7th and from 7th - 10th. Should clarify.


Love and Light.

[Shakthiprabha.]

Can anything be more mind-boggling? or mesmerising? :roll:

NOTHING! Thats why it keeps us going :)

[Punnaimaran]

I'm eagerly waiting for some insight into the Higgs boson or as commonly called God's particle. It might unlock the secrets of this universe and the theory of God. But it might take several years for that.

Atleast we have taken the first step toward the metaphysical realm.

Cheers
Punnaimaran

[Shakthiprabha.]

I personally however feel, nature cannot and will not reveal itself so easily. However it might open a way to so many inventions and we may get lil more wiser :?

:P Nature has a will ?

Destiny???

Well... at a quantum level, Nature is governed by probability. I don't know what a scientific definition for destiny could be, but this is by all means a bit shocking.

Love and Light.

http://atheism.about.com/od/argumentsforgod/a/design_4.htm

[anbu_kathir]

I personally however feel, nature cannot and will not reveal itself so easily. However it might open a way to so many inventions and we may get lil more wiser :?

:P Nature has a will ?

Destiny???

Well... at a quantum level, Nature is governed by probability. I don't know what a scientific definition for destiny could be, but this is by all means a bit shocking.

Love and Light.

http://atheism.about.com/od/argumentsforgod/a/design_4.htm

With these things, I think its best to accept something which fits our model for life well and go ahead. But only thing to be kept in mind is that none of our beliefs need be true, and some common sense.

Love and Light.

[anbu_kathir]

"Particle Physics: A Very Short Introduction" (http://www.amazon.com/Particle-Physics-Very-Short-Introduction/dp/0192804340/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1221087308&sr=8-1) by Frank Close (Oxford University Press, 2004). Available here (http://rs223.rapidshare.com/files/96090108/Particle_Physics_-_A_Very_Short_Introduction.pdf).

The pdf says......

////////Between the compact central nucleus and the remote whirling
electrons, atoms are mostly empty space. That is what many books
assert, and it is true as concerns the particles that make up an atom,
but that is only half the story. That space is filled with electric and
magnetic force fields///////


if we say, what occupies space are energy fields, gravitational, electromagnetic etc then, is this the nature of space? Space is something which is filed with energy and etc forces?

Suppose we take away or abstruct or block these forces, then there is a VOID? is that right? That is what is prevelant in black holes? void (vacuum) If all these are not there, then can we say space also stops existing?

What is the nature of this space? and what is the nature of void or vacuum? (if there is anything called existence there?)

anyone?

These 'fields' exist side by side with matter. Whenever there is mass, we have gravitational fields; whenever there are charges, we have the electro-magnetic fields etc.

In fact, if I am not wrong, quantum field theory is a theory that has been developed assuming that these fields are the actual basic stuff of the Universe, and the effects of these fields, their warping etc., result in all the other stuff, including matter.

These fields cannot really be blocked easily. For example, gravitation cannot be blocked by putting more mass in between or some kind of a negative gravitational field, etc. Not possible. If there are 2 masses anywhere in the Universe, you have gravity. Similarly with the charges and EM fields.

A black hole is not an absence of a field, but in fact its the fantastic presence of a heavy gravitational field, so much that it lets nothing go, even light, and hence is black. In a way, this does mean that normal space-time stops existing in the black hole (in Einstein lingo 'space-time got warped into itself' ... :shock: )

So, what is space? .. Well I guess its nothing more than the substratum/stage on which the dance of these particles and fields happen. I wouldn't know if one can give any meaning to space-time if none of these dancers were present.

Love and Light.

[Shakthiprabha.]

http://atheism.about.com/od/argumentsforgod/a/design_4.htm

With these things, I think its best to accept something which fits our model for life well and go ahead. But only thing to be kept in mind is that none of our beliefs need be true, and some common sense.

Love and Light.

May be Quantum mechanics can be applied to micro and not macro level . But then may be this is wrong too. All beliefs may be true, and may be not too. Everytihng may be true probably in different perspections, may be false in another angle. NOBODY can ever be too sure about anything :cry:

[littlemaster1982]

May be Quantum mechanics can be applied to micro and not macro level . But then may be this is wrong too. All beliefs may be true, and may be not too. Everytihng may be true probably in different perspections, may be false in another angle. NOBODY can ever be too sure about anything :cry:

Neenga solradhu onnumey puriyala :confused2:

[anbu_kathir]

http://atheism.about.com/od/argumentsforgod/a/design_4.htm

With these things, I think its best to accept something which fits our model for life well and go ahead. But only thing to be kept in mind is that none of our beliefs need be true, and some common sense.

Love and Light.

May be Quantum mechanics can be applied to micro and not macro level . But then may be this is wrong too. All beliefs may be true, and may be not too. Everytihng may be true probably in different perspections, may be false in another angle. NOBODY can ever be too sure about anything :cry:

That's a lot of may-be's in there, SP, which is why I said we should go on with our satisfaction levels and capacities and practicality :D.

[Shakthiprabha.]

if we say, what occupies space are energy fields, gravitational, electromagnetic etc then, is this the nature of space? Space is something which is filed with energy and etc forces?

Suppose we take away or abstruct or block these forces, then there is a VOID? is that right? That is what is prevelant in black holes? void (vacuum) If all these are not there, then can we say space also stops existing?

What is the nature of this space? and what is the nature of void or vacuum? (if there is anything called existence there?)

anyone?

These 'fields' exist side by side with matter. Whenever there is mass, we have gravitational fields; whenever there are charges, we have the electro-magnetic fields etc.

In fact, if I am not wrong, quantum field theory is a theory that has been developed assuming that these fields are the actual basic stuff of the Universe, and the effects of these fields, their warping etc., result in all the other stuff, including matter.

These fields cannot really be blocked easily. For example, gravitation cannot be blocked by putting more mass in between or some kind of a negative gravitational field, etc. Not possible. If there are 2 masses anywhere in the Universe, you have gravity. Similarly with the charges and EM fields.


Love and Light.

hmm! thanks! thats sounds simpler and makes sense too !



A black hole is not an absence of a field, but in fact its the fantastic presence of a heavy gravitational field, so much that it lets nothing go, even light, and hence is black. In a way, this does mean that normal space-time stops existing in the black hole (in Einstein lingo 'space-time got warped into itself' ... :shock: )

:shock: wow and dunno what else to say!



So, what is space? .. Well I guess its nothing more than the substratum/stage on which the dance of these particles and fields happen. I wouldn't know if one can give any meaning to space-time if none of these dancers were present.

:) Its said before BB (big bang) no space, time or matter existed.
We can safely presume, it existed in diff form (okei formless form) which is incomprehensible to even think. Just like tree existing inside seed.

Everything what I talk makes no sense to me :oops:

May be these lhc exp would come out with wonderful theories or assumptions leading to more confusions, which may give diff light to quantum mechanics itself.

No more reading these stuffs until tomm, I feel as though I am hypnotised!

[Shakthiprabha.]

May be Quantum mechanics can be applied to micro and not macro level . But then may be this is wrong too. All beliefs may be true, and may be not too. Everytihng may be true probably in different perspections, may be false in another angle. NOBODY can ever be too sure about anything :cry:

Neenga solradhu onnumey puriyala :confused2:

enakke purila vidunga :cry:

[pavalamani pragasam]

Yes, We easily get hyptonised by some favourite, accustomed, attractive concepts: like for example my awe for the music of the heavens often referred to in old literature. How wonderful to imagine an unheard, superb, ethereal music produced by the motion of the heavenly bodies in the cosmos!
Again, there is some theories we want to believe: like fundamental science lesson that matter is indestructible, matter can neither be destroyed nor created. Our body reunites with the elements, Nature. Then what about soul? There is a definite point where religion and science come to loggerheads!
Bold, brave new scientific thoughts and concepts are evolving like the concept of antimatter totally rearranging/readjusting our comfortable, convenient beliefs!

[Shakthiprabha.]

If its gonna be YEARS before they come to conclusions regarding this lhc exp, I doubt, how many years it would take? how many would be alive here on earth to listen to it or how many contradictions owuld arise later on!

Interesting!

Just like always einstein was not convinced with quantum mechanics and he said it lacked the completion as a whole. Only to be followed I believe by bell's theorem which prooved the chance facter :?

So this exp likewise, would not be an END to the quest, but rather confusion galore leading to new directions.

Lets wait !

Experiments of major interests were conducted before, but went unnoticed to common public cause of lack of communications. With communications work at grand level, today, every x y z , wanna know about particle physics and wonder, whats the result of this lhc exp.

I suppose when the exp is analysed, and results concluded, many of us may not be here in hub to revive this thread and discuss again :D

[pavalamani pragasam]

Height of pessimism!!! :lol:

[Shakthiprabha.]

pp maam links says so! It says it might be years before analysis can be concluded.

and its NOT pessimism. but reality.

No theory can be concluded easily without opposition and it definitely would take couple of century or atleast a centruty to definitely conclude anything.

These experiments are not 12th class chemistry exp, to conclude easily and results anounced in 2 days.


without opposition

1. I mean points for and agianst findings.
2. They might bump into some interesting findings which owuld only be a FOUNDATION for furhter investigations in future. This would not be conclusive. This is as per what I feel with my limited knowledge and view.

[pavalamani pragasam]

To think our hub's thread to die was hard to digest for me!!! :)
Discussions and debates will go on as they have done before and after Galileo. Infinite is the word!!!

[Shakthiprabha.]

Then Lets keep this thread alive by discussing anything about bb and its relative theories :lol2: also definitely we w3ould get titbits about our lhc now and then :)

[pavalamani pragasam]

:thumbsup:

[Shakthiprabha.]

pp maam,

do u remember a thread in history section on "choice / chance or creation" which led to HUGE debate, and concluded nothing :D

I suppose that may happen here :D

Lets look forward :)

[pavalamani pragasam]

That is why I sounded a warning in my intro! :wink:

[Shakthiprabha.]

:lol2:

we gain :)
quite a lot infact :)
atleast in such threads :)

[thamizhvaanan]

May be Quantum mechanics can be applied to micro and not macro level . But then may be this is wrong too. All beliefs may be true, and may be not too. Everytihng may be true probably in different perspections, may be false in another angle. NOBODY can ever be too sure about anything :cry:

Neenga solradhu onnumey puriyala :confused2:

LM... what she is trying to say is also true. Quantum physics as a law works in only micro level.. as in the way the matters interacts at atomic and sub atomic level is governed by quantum physics. But at larger scales, General theory of relativity prevails. What I read from ABHOT is that these two theories are inconsistent with each other and it is still the elusive dream of physicists around the globe to club them together to form a Unified theory.

So, what is SP talking about? the same thing being true as well as false. Well I am not a Quantum physics guy, but what I understand is that, if Quantum physics applies in large scale, then there need not be a single version of reality, but several versions of it co-existing together but we being aware of only one version. Our dear friend Anbu has once shared an enlightening DVD with me titled "What the Bleep do we know". As far as I remember this is what it talked about. What may be true in one version of reality may not be true in the other version.

[Shakthiprabha.]

aha!!!!!! Tv :D

ungali thaan ethir parthen :D

tv,

//////////if Quantum physics applies in large scale, then there need not be a single version of reality, but several versions of it co-existing together but we being aware of only one version. /////////

Precisely its like a TREE, nodes are what we are analysing, when we chainup all these nodes, the original node from which these branched may open up entirely new world of beliefs.

Please share that video with me. (pm me, I shall watch at leisure, understand at leisure and arise doubts at leisure :oops: )

[thamizhvaanan]

aha!!!!!! Tv :D

ungali thaan ethir parthen :D

tv,

//////////if Quantum physics applies in large scale, then there need not be a single version of reality, but several versions of it co-existing together but we being aware of only one version. /////////

Precisely its like a TREE, nodes are what we are analysing, when we chainup all these nodes, the original node from which these branched may open up entirely new world of beliefs.

Please share that video with me. (pm me, I shall watch at leisure, understand at leisure and arise doubts at leisure :oops: )

aah!! ennayum ethirpaarka oru jeevan!!! how sweet :D

But SP, as I told... I only got the DVD from him. I found the same in Youtube... I think its the same... enjoy :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrKvzPXULME

[Shakthiprabha.]

thanks tv :D

[padmanabha]

[tscii:9cd1181d9a]I WOULD LIKE TO SHARE WHAT LITLE I KNOW ABOUT THE BIG BANG THEORY. IF YOU FIND ERRORS KINDLY CLEAR IT-I WILL BE MUCH OBLIGED

ORIGIN OF THE UNIVERSE
Cosmo-genesis is a multidisciplinary science –involving particle physics, and cosmology. According to the standard model of the Universe, the “big bang” high energies existed at the earliest phases in the evolution of the Universe, providing a convenient testing ground fro theories about elementary particles.
One requires some basic familiarity with the structure of the Universe as well as the dynamics of elementary particles.
The physical universe contains –matter and radiation. Matter is in the form of galaxies with an average density of about 10 to the power of negative 30 gm per cubic cm. This is equal one hydrogen atom in every 1000 liters of space. There are one hundred thousand galaxies known. In addition to this, the Universe contains electromagnetic radiations of all wavelengths.
The energy density of this radiation is equivalent to a matter of the order 10 to the power of negative 33 gm/cubic cm. One can express energies in terms of masses and vive versa E=mxcxc where E=energy, m=mass and c=velocity of light (3ooooo kms/second). Thus the radiation density at present is thousand smaller than the matter density, which makes the Universe matter dominated.
The radiation has two sources namely the one emitted by the various stellar sources and there is a back ground radiation all around us in the Universe. It is same in all direction and is not produced by the sources we today in the sky. The radiation has a spectrum akin to the one emitted by an object kept at an extremely small temperature of 3 Kelvin= -270 centigrade! IT is the relic of the “BIG BANG”.
THE Structure of the Universe is exceedingly complicated, when looked at the scales of galaxies. The most remarkable feature is its large scale expansion. By studying the spectrum of distant galaxies astronomers have concluded that those galaxies are receding away from us with speeds proportional to their distances. The overall expansion is like every point is running from a chosen point. It also implies that the Universe was smaller in the past and hence considerably denser.

Now one must know the basic forces that exist between particles-they are strong, weak, electromagnetic and gravitational. The strong and weak forces are of extremely short range. Strong forces hold the nucleus together weak forces operate in process like beta decay. These two do not play much role in the structure of the universe. The electromagnetic force too has not much role as the particles are electrically neutral. Thus THE STRUCTURE OF THE UNIVERSE depends on the gravitational interaction.
A comprehensive theory was developed by Albert Einstein in 1915. The cosmology theory is called the Big Bang. One assumes that the Universe is homogeneous and isotropic and contains matter and radiation. With this input one can solve the mathematical equation of Einstein theory. The solution describes an expanding Universe-originated from infinitely dense phase in the past hence the radiation and matter densities would be higher. But it behaves differently under the expansion of the universe. The radiation density rises faster than matter density as we go to earlier times. When the Universe was thousand times smaller the radiation density was comparable to matter density and at earlier times radiation dominated over matter. The cosmic background radiation has a very low temperature of 2.7 Kelvin at present but when the Universe was thousand times smaller, the radiation. Thus the early hot phase depended on the behavior of matter at high energies. When the Universe was ten thousand times smaller the temperature was 30,000 K. The constant change of radiation and energy lead to a strange situation. The matter will be completely ionized hence existed in the fourth state of matter called Plasma.

PAIR CREATION

There is anti particle for every particle with the same mass and opposite electrical properties. These two can collide and annihilate each other giving rise to photons. Out of pure radiation, particle and anti-particle pair can be created-for this one requires higher temperature. As we go to earlier epochs the Universe will be boiling with heavier and heavier particles.

This soup of particles will be constantly colliding and their behavior is governed by the laws of equilibrium statistical mechanics. In a static universe, interaction between the particles will be enough to maintain thermodynamic equilibrium. But the Universe is constantly expanding. The rate of collision of the particle has to be higher than the rate of expansion and this delicate equilibrium plays an important role in deciding the early evolution of the Universe.
After one tenth of a millisecond after the Big Bang the temperature was about million-million degrees (10 followed by 12 zeroes).
In million years it cooled down to 1000 degrees. The present age of the Universe is ten thousand million years.
When the temperature was million-million degrees, the radiation did not have enough energy to create proton-antiproton pairs. The components were –protons, electrons, positrons, muons-antimuons, neutrinos-and antineutrons and photons.

The mass was four thousand million kilograms per liter. Every one hundredth of a second, the size of the universe doubled at the same time it cooled rapidly. In 100 seconds after the Big Bang, the temperature dropped to 10 followed by 11 zeroes Kelvin. As it expanded further, the cooling helped to shift the proton-neutron ratio in favor of protons. After three seconds there were three protons for one neutron. After 10 seconds, the temperature was three thousand million degrees-at which electron-positron pair cannot be formed. However the annihilation of electron-positron continued resulting in a rapid disappearance of positrons leaving slight excess of electrons. It took 30 minutes by the time the universe was expanding and cooling. The neutron- proton ratio 17 ::83.

Now the question is Whether they can or not hold together at these temperature as bound nuclei. The simplest structure of the nuclei is deuterium-on proton and one neutron. It can exist ONLY below 0.8x10,00000000 K. Helium the second member of the periodic table has two proton and two neutron it is very stable. To produce helium directly from protons and neutrons collision has to be done between four particles-highly improbable. Thus one cannot produce helium without producing deuterium.
This dramatic event took place when the universe was three minutes old. The temperature was less than thousand million degrees. Deuterium nucleus can now hold together and further collisions converted into helium. The helium nucleus contains equal amounts by weight of neutron and protons the percentage of helium formed will be twice as much as the percentage of neutrons. Sine there were 13 % of neutrons in the primordial soup one expects 26% of helium.

After 30 minutes, the temperature was three hundred millions. The matter consisted of helium nuclei and hydrogen nuclei which are just protons. Stable atomic system can form only when the temperature is below four thousand degrees. Nothing happened for a long time. The universe expanded and cooled for about seven hundred thousand years. The electrons combined with helium and hydrogen nuclei to form stable atomic system as see today. In about ten thousand million years more galaxies, the solar system the earth and life originated. The radiation that de coupled from the matter formed the background radiation. These are the pillars of which the big-bang model stands.
What happened when the universe was 0.0001 second? As we go further back, the temperature keeps on increasing. Since the size of the universe was smaller matter and radiation densities also go up without bound. When we extrapolate this concept we will end up with infinite densities and temperature at the origin-this situation is called singularity problem of cosmology.
[/tscii:9cd1181d9a]

[littlemaster1982]

May be Quantum mechanics can be applied to micro and not macro level . But then may be this is wrong too. All beliefs may be true, and may be not too. Everytihng may be true probably in different perspections, may be false in another angle. NOBODY can ever be too sure about anything :cry:

Neenga solradhu onnumey puriyala :confused2:

LM... what she is trying to say is also true. Quantum physics as a law works in only micro level.. as in the way the matters interacts at atomic and sub atomic level is governed by quantum physics. But at larger scales, General theory of relativity prevails. What I read from ABHOT is that these two theories are inconsistent with each other and it is still the elusive dream of physicists around the globe to club them together to form a Unified theory.

So, what is SP talking about? the same thing being true as well as false. Well I am not a Quantum physics guy, but what I understand is that, if Quantum physics applies in large scale, then there need not be a single version of reality, but several versions of it co-existing together but we being aware of only one version. Our dear friend Anbu has once shared an enlightening DVD with me titled "What the Bleep do we know". As far as I remember this is what it talked about. What may be true in one version of reality may not be true in the other version.

I've read about Quantam physics in only Sujatha's "ஏன், எதற்கு, எப்படி". I felt dizzy after reading it :oops:

[rocketboy]

I remember Nasc, one of our hubbers , talking about this sometime back in another thread. I think he may have something to say about this .Maybe he can educate us all.


IMHO, Brief History of Time and Universe in a Nutshell aren't easy reads . You can't skim through it as you would do with a novel. It takes some time for things to sink in. Again IMHO .

[Lambretta]

Hey, the world has seemingly NOT come to an end despite all this news bout it happeneing post "BIG BANG"!! :o :wink: :lol: :P :D

So Hallelujah I guess!! :yes: :clap: :redjump: :bluejump: :boo: :Relief: :victory:

[MrIndia]

http://www.cyriak.co.uk/lhc/lhc-webcams.html

live webcam.

[Querida]

:shaking: http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/international_india_suicide_dc

[thamizhvaanan]

http://www.cyriak.co.uk/lhc/lhc-webcams.html

live webcam.

:rotfl:

[thamizhvaanan]

IMHO, Brief History of Time and Universe in a Nutshell aren't easy reads . You can't skim through it as you would do with a novel. It takes some time for things to sink in. Again IMHO .
Welcome RB :D

True, it is not an easy read, but its not that technical either. I would advise anyone not to shun from reading it, coz even if we understand little tidbits as we skim through the book, we will come across the same concepts elsewhere and if we can make the correlation, we can gradually acquire some wholesome idea. Avoiding the book is not going to help.

To his credit, Stephen Hawkings has written this in a very lively manner. Its amazing to see how people can think and explain so clearly, that doesnt come with a vague understanding.

[anbu_kathir]

IMHO, Brief History of Time and Universe in a Nutshell aren't easy reads . You can't skim through it as you would do with a novel. It takes some time for things to sink in. Again IMHO .
Welcome RB :D

True, it is not an easy read, but its not that technical either. I would advise anyone not to shun from reading it, coz even if we understand little tidbits as we skim through the book, we will come across the same concepts elsewhere and if we can make the correlation, we can gradually acquire some wholesome idea. Avoiding the book is not going to help.

To his credit, Stephen Hawkings has written this in a very lively manner. Its amazing to see how people can think and explain so clearly, that doesnt come with a vague understanding.

Yeah.. those are great books. I got illustrated versions of them, hard bound :D. But even then, Hawking is a scientist, and uses stuff that is not easy to get at the first for a novice.

In contrast, 'The Dancing Wu-Li Masters' by Gary Zukav and 'The Tao of Physics' by Fritjof Capra are beginner level books of quantum physics (They include some 'spiritual' notions' of quantum physics, which the scientists are wary of). They are the best reads for any novice, but they should be read with some caution because they are not from scientists par se and hence lack precision.

Love and Light.

[Shakthiprabha.]

True, it is not an easy read, but its not that technical either. I would advise anyone not to shun from reading it, coz even if we understand little tidbits as we skim through the book, we will come across the same concepts elsewhere and if we can make the correlation, we can gradually acquire some wholesome idea. Avoiding the book is not going to help.



I can vouch for this. If not anything, atleast we gain INTEREST in knowing more :) quest is kindled.

[Shakthiprabha.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrKvzPXULME

anbu, tv,

:ty: I saw the first bit yest (there are lot more parts which I intend watching at my own sweet time and leisure) (may be 2 more today )

Mandai kaanju pochunnu ithu varai kelvi patrukken. Athai clip parthu nethu nijamavE I had head achE! :) Then all I wanted to do was, close my eyes and sit quietly. Even if I close, all those particles were chasing me :lol2:

Enjoyed watching. Yest I did lot of reading, and also so this clip. Today I am gonna do some more reading. Its so thrilling defintiely :)

[anbu_kathir]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrKvzPXULME

anbu, tv,

:ty: I saw the first bit yest (there are lot more parts which I intend watching at my own sweet time and leisure) (may be 2 more today )

Mandai kaanju pochunnu ithu varai kelvi patrukken. Athai clip parthu nethu nijamavE I had head achE! :) Then all I wanted to do was, close my eyes and sit quietly. Even if I close, all those particles were chasing me :lol2:

Enjoyed watching. Yest I did lot of reading, and also so this clip. Today I am gonna do some more reading. Its so thrilling defintiely :)

SP, innum konjam yummy chocolates tharEn, enjoy pannunga.

This is the video of ' The pleasure of finding things out' on Richard Feynman. Feynman, by all means, is one of the current sources of my inspirations in this period of life. He is just pure joy to watch, listen and absorb.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8777381378502286852&hl=en

This is a physics lecture by Feynman, describing some very basic stuff in quantum electrodynamics. Science lecture na ippadi irukkanum :) Wow :thumbsup:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8459058620572291798&hl=en

Love and Light.

[Shakthiprabha.]

Thanks anbu kathir, :redjump: :D
Right now I am storing all these in databse. One choclate per day I plan. :D

[Shakthiprabha.]

:shaking: http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/international_india_suicide_dc

///But in deeply religious and superstitious India, fears about the experiment and the minor risks associated with it spread rapidly through the media ///


:roll: :(

[anbu_kathir]

:shaking: http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/international_india_suicide_dc

///But in deeply religious and superstitious India, fears about the experiment and the minor risks associated with it spread rapidly through the media ///
:roll: :(

Although a few scientific people of the West have termed ancient India as a civilization where scientific methods had flourished, the West had always known India as an 'exotic' place of magicians and superstition.

Its sad that we ourselves do not know our strengths as well as our weaknesses of the past. For instance, Indians had somehow stumbled upon the velocity of light way back in the 1300s. God knows how !

http://greatindiandiscoveries.blogspot.com/2007/09/speed-of-light.html

Love and Light.

[Shakthiprabha.]

Absolutely amazing! :clap:

We dont know our treasure, we dont read our treasute, we dont believe it but keep looking towards the west for the approval of our scriptures and their stamp for our scripture's authenticity!

[thamizhvaanan]

Although a few scientific people of the West have termed ancient India as a civilization where scientific methods had flourished, the West had always known India as an 'exotic' place of magicians and superstition.

Its sad that we ourselves do not know our strengths as well as our weaknesses of the past. For instance, Indians had somehow stumbled upon the velocity of light way back in the 1300s. God knows how !

http://greatindiandiscoveries.blogspot.com/2007/09/speed-of-light.html

Love and Light.

Well, I dont buy this explanation. He just mentions the speed at which sun travels (excuse me.. sun travels? :shock: ) and this is coming from a bunch of ppl who beleives that Sun god travels across the sky with a chariot powered by horses and that a snake can hide it away during eclipses. It never says light from sun travels at dat speed leave, I guess they are referring to Sun's movement across the sky (damn fast horses eh? :P) not the travel of sun's light towards us.

But the value seems so close? Not really, it is still thousands of miles/sec off the mark, but the huge denominator makes the deviation seem little. Again, the value is arrived at using conversion tables from all over the place, some from vedas, some from puranas and minor inaccuraccies in lower units can manifest as a huge deviation in the overall value in miles/sec. It can be random, but to me it still sounds that representing speed of light was not the initent in the first place.

However it is true that for measuring time one doesnt need advanced 20th century theories. Whatever be the technique, such high value of speed means that inorder to measure it, we need an accurate clock capable of showing time differences in fractions of seconds... and what did we have then for measuring time? Sun Dial? :lol2:

[anbu_kathir]

Although a few scientific people of the West have termed ancient India as a civilization where scientific methods had flourished, the West had always known India as an 'exotic' place of magicians and superstition.

Its sad that we ourselves do not know our strengths as well as our weaknesses of the past. For instance, Indians had somehow stumbled upon the velocity of light way back in the 1300s. God knows how !

http://greatindiandiscoveries.blogspot.com/2007/09/speed-of-light.html

Love and Light.

Well, I dont buy this explanation. He just mentions the speed at which sun travels (excuse me.. sun travels? :shock: ) and It never says light from sun travels at dat speed leave, I guess they are referring to Sun's movement across the sky (damn fast horses eh? :P) not the travel of sun's light towards us.

But the value seems so close? Not really, it is still thousands of miles/sec off the mark, but the huge denominator makes the deviation seem little. Again, the value is arrived at using conversion tables from all over the place, some from vedas, some from puranas and minor inaccuraccies in lower units can manifest as a huge deviation in the overall value in miles/sec. It can be random, but to me it still sounds that representing speed of light was not the initent in the first place.

However it is true that for measuring time one doesnt need advanced 20th century theories. Whatever be the technique, such high value of speed means that inorder to measure it, we need an accurate clock capable of showing time differences in fractions of seconds... and what did we have then for measuring time? Sun Dial? :lol2:

First of all, one thing that must be known is the mindset of the ancients (ancients of India), the interplay between mythology (imagination-art) and science in their times. They were clearly not separately handled (as we have today), and that was the beauty of their civilization, the reason for the cohesiveness.

For example, the sun in chariot, the Rahu-Ketu stuff of eclipses, were mythology, not science. But is there any evidence of the statement you make? - "
this is coming from a bunch of ppl who beleives that Sun god travels across the sky with a chariot powered by horses and that a snake can hide it away during eclipses

Is it a fact that the scientists/scholars in the ancient times actually believed in these? Nope. This is mythology, and it was known among common people who were not scholars, and that is how they find their ways into many many Puranas or stories from mythology. Even today, a lot of myths (even in science) still float among the common people of the world, and only because the communication systems of today have improved that such myths are getting disposed of.

I recently attended a talk on "Calculus in Ancient India" (given by an IIT prof). The IIT prof had worked his way through that ancient maths text (which btw were found out recently), with help from many Sanskrit scholars he found out which verses mean what. It is true that the ancients had devised formulae for calculating series of sine/cosine, limits-convergence of series, the irrational numbers, instantaneous velocity calculations, ..etc. This was documented in a maths book written in Sanskrit by scholars named Maadhava,Bhaaskara etc in the 1300s.

In this talk, I also came to know that the ancients were clearly aware of the process of eclipses, how the positions of the sun, moon and the earth affect their occurence. There are also instances in the Mahabharata where there are discussions on what might be called as "photosynthesis" and "time-dilation" in modern times.

But all these are in cryptic form, in Sanskrit verses, mingled with mythology, poetic and in a sense beautiful. We don't have formulas in these texts as of today like "sin(x)=blah blah". No. Just like mathematics is a language in which the science finds its expressions today, Sanskrit-art-myths were the language in which the science of the ancients was expressed.

Suppose our civilization was to die out, and there was a new civilization which did science in a different way than ours,, how would it see our scientific findings ? There would be confusions, there would be difficulties in interpretations, because they don't know the language in which our science founds its expression.

So this is the problem. Because there are not many modern scientists, who are well versed in Sanskrit and are interested in these things, most of these scientific developments have never made their way into the modern Indian minds.

As for the calculations involving the velocity of light, I believe the relevant units have been worked out by people who know Sanskrit well and who have read the entire text (the commentary on the Rig veda) to know which units this person was referring to. At those times, the Indian civilization was the only one to have handled such big numbers.

The question of how it was measured is something that cannot be said. There is obviously no experiment descriptions present. And although inaccuracy is present, one would understand that in such big numbers, the percentage is what matters, and it is close to quite an extent and cannot be disposed off as fluke just like that.

Love and Light.

[Punnaimaran]

with help from many Sanskrit scholars he found out[/b] which verses mean what. It is true that the ancients had devised formulae for calculating series of sine/cosine, limits-convergence of series, the irrational numbers, instantaneous velocity calculations, ..etc. This was documented in a maths book written in Sanskrit by scholars named Maadhava,Bhaaskara etc in the 1300s.


But all these are in cryptic form, in Sanskrit verses, mingled with mythology, poetic and in a sense beautiful. We don't have formulas in these texts as of today like "sin(x)=blah blah". No. Just like mathematics is a language in which the science finds its expressions today, Sanskrit-art-myths were the language in which the science of the ancients was expressed.



I believe that these figures have been derived(?) or made up after the knowledge of the modern values.

It is common that after every invention, we can see our Indians coming out with proofs(?) from some cryptic verses that we had knowledge of the same about ten centuries before !!

But I wonder why we do we not come out with those before the inventions !!!

Just now I met one Sanskrit scholar who qouted cryptic verses and proved(?) that this month Ramadan is actually
Raama Dhaan !!!! :roll:

[anbu_kathir]

I believe that these figures have been derived(?) or made up after the knowledge of the modern values.

It is common that after every invention, we can see our Indians coming out with proofs(?) from some cryptic verses that we had knowledge of the same about ten centuries before !!

But I wonder why we do we not come out with those before the inventions !!!

Just now I met one Sanskrit scholar who qouted cryptic verses and proved(?) that this month Ramadan is actually
Raama Dhaan !!!! :roll:

As we do not know or understand the knowledge systems of the ancient types and the way in which they wrote these things, it seems that after every invention we get stuff from the old sanskrit books. But that explanation does not really hold, the verses involving the formula cannot be misinterpreted by one who is well versed in Sanskrit.

There are specific words for multiplication, division, squares, etc... and it just takes a person who has some good Sanskrit literature to decipher them. Just like the Mayan heiroglyphs... one cannot claim that the code used to decipher them can be interpreted in a different way when there are many people that agree on the interpretation and it seems to make a lot of mathematical sense.

Love and Light

[Punnaimaran]

I believe that these figures have been derived(?) or made up after the knowledge of the modern values.

It is common that after every invention, we can see our Indians coming out with proofs(?) from some cryptic verses that we had knowledge of the same about ten centuries before !!

But I wonder why we do we not come out with those before the inventions !!!

Just now I met one Sanskrit scholar who qouted cryptic verses and proved(?) that this month Ramadan is actually
Raama Dhaan !!!! :roll:

As we do not know or understand the knowledge systems of the ancient types and the way in which they wrote these things, it seems that after every invention we get stuff from the old sanskrit books. But that explanation does not really hold, the verses involving the formula cannot be misinterpreted by one who is well versed in Sanskrit.
There are specific words for multiplication, division, squares, etc... and it just takes a person who has some good Sanskrit literature to decipher them. Just like the Mayan heiroglyphs... one cannot claim that the code used to decipher them can be interpreted in a different way when there are many people that agree on the interpretation and it seems to make a lot of mathematical sense.

Love and Light

When we do not understand what is written, how come we say that we interpret them correctly?

My question was why the people who are well versed in Sanskrit could not decipher(?) the formulae before the west and how suddenly after every invention they come up with those interpretations.

Why not before ????

[anbu_kathir]

Why not before ????

I mentioned in my post that, the books that have the sine series were themselves found recently. The mathematics from the books Lilavati , Bijaganita were known before, but again the knowledge from the books was not as widespread as the mathematics from the West, who led the colonization, the Industrial revolution, the communication revolution etc. Because of all these, Sanskrit as a language itself has come down in India, and all its scientific treatises have dimmed into darkness.

Wiki for Indian mathematics : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_mathematics

Vedic maths, which was a collection of quick methods to do different problems in arithmetic and algebra was 'revealed in meditation' to the Jagadguru Sankaracharya of Puri mutt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagadguru_Swami_Sri_Bharati_Krishna_Tirthaji_Mahar aja
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedic_Mathematics


When we do not understand what is written, how come we say that we interpret them correctly?

When I said " as we don't know the knowledge systems ...", ' we ' => common people, those who don't know Sanskrit and the Aryan socio-philosophical-science systems. The people who knew them are rare, and ultimately these people do interpret the verses about the formulae similarly.

As I said, there are specific words for addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, squaring, even/odd numbers.. etc. used throughout a text uniformly. One who reads the work entirely can deduce the pattern and figure out the precise way in which the verse breaks up into the formulae.

Love and Light.

[Punnaimaran]

Thanks anbu kathir for the links. I'll go thru them and come back to you if there are any doubts.

Regards
Punnaimaran

[thamizhvaanan]

Although a few scientific people of the West have termed ancient India as a civilization where scientific methods had flourished, the West had always known India as an 'exotic' place of magicians and superstition.

Its sad that we ourselves do not know our strengths as well as our weaknesses of the past. For instance, Indians had somehow stumbled upon the velocity of light way back in the 1300s. God knows how !

http://greatindiandiscoveries.blogspot.com/2007/09/speed-of-light.html

Love and Light.

Well, I dont buy this explanation. He just mentions the speed at which sun travels (excuse me.. sun travels? :shock: ) and It never says light from sun travels at dat speed leave, I guess they are referring to Sun's movement across the sky (damn fast horses eh? :P) not the travel of sun's light towards us.

But the value seems so close? Not really, it is still thousands of miles/sec off the mark, but the huge denominator makes the deviation seem little. Again, the value is arrived at using conversion tables from all over the place, some from vedas, some from puranas and minor inaccuraccies in lower units can manifest as a huge deviation in the overall value in miles/sec. It can be random, but to me it still sounds that representing speed of light was not the initent in the first place.

However it is true that for measuring time one doesnt need advanced 20th century theories. Whatever be the technique, such high value of speed means that inorder to measure it, we need an accurate clock capable of showing time differences in fractions of seconds... and what did we have then for measuring time? Sun Dial? :lol2:

First of all, one thing that must be known is the mindset of the ancients (ancients of India), the interplay between mythology (imagination-art) and science in their times. They were clearly not separately handled (as we have today), and that was the beauty of their civilization, the reason for the cohesiveness.

For example, the sun in chariot, the Rahu-Ketu stuff of eclipses, were mythology, not science. But is there any evidence of the statement you make? - "
this is coming from a bunch of ppl who beleives that Sun god travels across the sky with a chariot powered by horses and that a snake can hide it away during eclipses

Is it a fact that the scientists/scholars in the ancient times actually believed in these? Nope. This is mythology, and it was known among common people who were not scholars, and that is how they find their ways into many many Puranas or stories from mythology. Even today, a lot of myths (even in science) still float among the common people of the world, and only because the communication systems of today have improved that such myths are getting disposed of.

I recently attended a talk on "Calculus in Ancient India" (given by an IIT prof). The IIT prof had worked his way through that ancient maths text (which btw were found out recently), with help from many Sanskrit scholars he found out which verses mean what. It is true that the ancients had devised formulae for calculating series of sine/cosine, limits-convergence of series, the irrational numbers, instantaneous velocity calculations, ..etc. This was documented in a maths book written in Sanskrit by scholars named Maadhava,Bhaaskara etc in the 1300s.

In this talk, I also came to know that the ancients were clearly aware of the process of eclipses, how the positions of the sun, moon and the earth affect their occurence. There are also instances in the Mahabharata where there are discussions on what might be called as "photosynthesis" and "time-dilation" in modern times. LOL.. Dude.. relax.. I nvr told that there was no science in ancient India. I just said that it doesnt seem like they are referring to speed of light at all.. and to take the measuring infeasibilities at that time, it only sounds more saner to reject this hypothesis.


But all these are in cryptic form, in Sanskrit verses, mingled with mythology, poetic and in a sense beautiful. We don't have formulas in these texts as of today like "sin(x)=blah blah". No. Just like mathematics is a language in which the science finds its expressions today, Sanskrit-art-myths were the language in which the science of the ancients was expressed.
Love and Light.

Well this is where I have problems. All such mystiscm, symbolism and hidden meanings will make great stuff for Dan Brown to write a fiction, but it cant be taken seriously. To me all these are feeble measures to sell religion to an increasingly aware society. Well, people do make stunnng discoveries from something as mundane as Nostradamus writings..

"Dude.. did u see that. if u take 3rd alphabet of 37th word in 90th page and 5th alphabet of so and so and club them together it says TITANIC IS GOING TO SINK ... its so CLEARLY TOLD before and these losers didnt even know it and sent 1100 ppl on that leaking boat.. how dumb"

Eyes cannot see what the mind doesnot know, but sometimes Eye can see things what the mind wants to be seen. If you are going to read between lines and make claims that Vedas is alll pure science.. wisdom of mankind etc.. etc.. whats the point? If all these intellect couldnt help to protect us when Ghajni invaded India, if it couldnt the slavery prevailant in our history, if it couldnt help us leap frog western civilization when they went ahead with Industrial revolution... it seems to me that it is no wisdom at all. By all that you say, it seems like India should have invented steam engine first? damn... our neighours chinese have more inventions to show off than us :huh:

To me all such claims are attempts to pull back india to dark ages. We are always told of this great intellectual treasure hidden in our texts, when we ask what it is, we are told you dont know. If someone explains it correctly, we are told they dont know.. they havent studied sanskrit properly. If I am not sure whether my script is actually telling me the speed of light or asking me to go and raid my neighbours cattle or whether it simply translates to "Bathe only on saturdays".. I wouldnt be sure of accepting it as intellectual stuff.

So you want me to beleive that our mythological stupidities are actually super intellectual symbolism carefully crafted just to fool us into thinking that it is stupid? Such "you dont know" "you dont understand" accusations are what that spoiled our nation, that necessitated the need of Brokers to Gods and Religion and that made our people perpetually ignorant. If people start beleiving in such claims, India will be doomed to another dark age.

[anbu_kathir]

OK Thamizh... not willing to discuss about this anymore.

Love and Light.

[thamizhvaanan]

Yup.. I was about to say that too :ashamed:

[Lambretta]

:roll:

[thamizhvaanan]

Hawking rewrites history... backwards
To understand the Universe we must start from the here and now.

by Philip Ball
Nature News

How did the Universe begin? Many scientists would regard this as one of the most profound questions of all. But to Stephen Hawking, who has perhaps come closer than anyone to answering it, the question doesn't in fact even exist.

Hawking, based at the University of Cambridge, UK, and his colleague Thomas Hertog of the European Laboratory for Particle Physics at CERN in Geneva, Switzerland, are about to publish a paper claiming that the Universe had no unique beginning. Instead, they argue, it began in just about every way imaginable (and maybe some that aren't).

Out of this profusion of beginnings, the vast majority withered away without leaving any real imprint on the Universe we know today. Only a tiny fraction of them blended to make the current cosmos, Hawking and Hertog claim.

That, they insist, is the only possible conclusion if we are to take quantum physics seriously. "Quantum mechanics forbids a single history," says Hertog.

The researchers' theory comes in response to a problem raised by 'string theory', one of the best hopes for a theory of everything. String theory permits innumerable different kinds of universe, most of them very different from the one we inhabit. Some physicists suspect that an unknown factor will turn up that rules out most of these universes.

But Hawking and Hertog say that the countless 'alternative worlds' of string theory may actually have existed. We should picture the Universe in the first instants of the Big Bang as a superposition of all these possibilities, they say; like a projection of billions of movies played on top of one another.
It all adds up

This might sound odd, but it is precisely the view adopted by quantum theory. Think of a particle of light reaching our eye from a lamp. Common sense suggests that it simply travels in a straight line from the bulb to the eye. But to make correct predictions about the particle's behaviour, quantum mechanics must consider all other possible paths too, including ones in which, say, the photon bounces around the walls thousands of times before reaching us.

This summation of all paths, proposed in the 1960s by physicist Richard Feynman and others, is the only way to explain some of the bizarre properties of quantum particles, such as their apparent ability to be in two places at once. The key point is that not all paths contribute equally to the photon's behaviour: the straight-line trajectory dominates over the indirect ones.

Hertog argues that the same must be true of the path through time that took the Universe into its current state. We must regard it as a sum over all possible histories.
Take it from the top

He and Hawking call their theory 'top-down' cosmology, because instead of looking for some fundamental set of initial physical laws under which our Universe unfolded, it starts 'at the top', with what we see today, and works backwards to see what the initial set of possibilities might have been. In effect, says Hertog, the present 'selects' the past.

Within just a few seconds after the Big Bang, a single history had already come to dominate the Universe, he explains. So from the 'classical' viewpoint of big objects such as stars and galaxies, things happened only one way after that point. Other 'histories', say, one in which the Earth formed only 4,000 years ago, have made no significant contribution to this cosmic evolution.

But in the first instants of the Big Bang, there existed a superposition of ever more different versions of the Universe, instead of a unique history. And most crucially, Hertog says that "our current Universe has features frozen in from this early quantum mixture".

In other words, some of these alternative histories have left their imprint behind. This is why Hertog and Hawking insist that their 'top-down' cosmology is testable. Hertog says that the theory predicts the pattern of the variations in intensity of microwave background radiation, the afterglow of the Big Bang now imprinted on the sky, which reveal fluctuations in the fireball of the nascent Universe. These variations are minute, but space-based detectors have measured them ever more accurately over the past several years.

As the two researchers work out top-down cosmology in more detail, they hope to be able to calculate the spectrum of these microwave fluctuations and compare it with observations.

The theory also suggests an answer to the puzzle of why some of the 'constants of nature' seem finely tuned to a value that allows life to evolve. If we start from where we are now, it is obvious that the current Universe must 'select' those histories that lead to these conditions. Otherwise we simply wouldn't be here.


http://www.bioedonline.org/news/news.cfm?art=2617

[anbu_kathir]

The LHC operations are halted for months.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7626944.stm

Love and Light.

[wrap07]

Anbu,

Excellent information/analysis and views :clap:

[Shakthiprabha.]

The LHC operations are halted for months.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7626944.stm

Love and Light.


I personally however feel, nature cannot and will not reveal itself so easily. However it might open a way to so many inventions and we may get lil more wiser :?


I am clueless to say anything.

[anbu_kathir]

The LHC operations are halted for months.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7626944.stm

Love and Light.


I personally however feel, nature cannot and will not reveal itself so easily. However it might open a way to so many inventions and we may get lil more wiser :?


I am clueless to say anything.

Well, the instrument is now out for an year. :P.

[Shakthiprabha.]

:( :) :P

[Shakthiprabha.]

No news at all is it?
reactions of scientists?
future plans?

[anbu_kathir]

No news at all is it?
reactions of scientists?
future plans?

No LHC news for a few months now atleast.



Problems with a magnetic quench on 19 September 2008, caused a leak of a tonne of liquid helium, and has delayed the operation for several months.Since the repairs are scheduled to be finished around late November 2008, this conflicts into the winter shutdown, meaning initial experiments will not take place until Spring 2009.


Maybe we can discuss other aspects of it, but most probably it will get quickly too technical for normal humans like us :P.

Love and Light.

[thamizhvaanan]

From what I read, there were frequent references to faulty electrical connections. The LHC makes use of lot superconductors to energize the huge electromagnets. Apparently super conductor in one particular region failed to super conduct, as in, it offered resistance to current flow rather than offering zero resistance. Whenever current flows through coils with resistance, its temperature rises and so did it in LHC, with temperatures upto the range of 100 degree fahrenheit. Seems like it caused a hole in the helium carrying tube leading to a leak of around 1 tonne liquid helium.

I also remember reading somewhere that that particular connection was one among the final set of electromagnets to be tested... project deadline meet panradhula idhellam sagajam :lol2:

[thamizhvaanan]

CERN rivals see melting magnets as par for course


The daring success of the world's largest atom smasher on its opening day was more surprising to many scientists than the troubles it subsequently developed.
A problem with a magnet connection will delay the start of experiments for half a year, partly because the $3.8 billion accelerator is so complicated to repair. Physicists - some of whom waited two decades to use the new equipment - will now have to wait three more weeks for the damaged section to be warmed up to room temperature.

They can then get inside to see what went wrong.

Yet such glitches are not uncommon. Michael Harrison, who worked on Fermilab's Tevatron collider and designed and built the United States' other superconducting collider at Brookhaven on Long Island, said both machines had similar startup problems.

"You find all kinds of little issues as you start to turn it on and make it work," Harrison said in a telephone interview from Brookhaven.

Rival operations in the United States watched with admiration as CERN flawlessly launched its new Large Hadron Collider before the world's news media, the first time such a startup has been public anywhere.

"A huge cheer went up from here," said Judy Jackson, spokeswoman for the Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory outside Chicago, whose Tevatron is losing its title of world's highest-energy collider with the startup of CERN's.

Scientists watching the Sept. 10 event live at Fermilab "were all holding our breath," Jackson said. "People here had been through this and said, 'Oh man, I hope it works.'"

The meltdown of a connection between superconducting magnets nine days later at CERN was more expected. But it knocked out use of the machine for two months, costing the scientists valuable time to get the machine ready for use on experiments next spring after the usual four-month winter shutdown.

"It's what happens when you start up a big, superconducting machine," Jackson told The Associated Press. "Our impression is that what happened last Friday at CERN caught them more by surprise than it did us."

Besides the two colliders in the United States, there was a third in Hamburg, Germany, until last year. The United States was building what would have been the largest - the Superconducting Super Collider - but in 1993 Congress stopped construction in Texas after costs soared and questions were raised about the value of the science it could produce.

The machines have to operate at extremely cold temperatures to take advantage of superconductivity - the ability of some metals to conduct electricity without any resistance near absolute zero degrees. That allows for much greater efficiency in operating electromagnets that guide the beams of protons at near the speed of light until the particles collide with each other.

CERN specialists have already figured out that a connector between electromagnets failed and heated up, causing a magnet "quench," or shutdown. It apparently melted a hole in the tube, causing a leak that spilled about a ton of liquid helium.

The collider has well-tested systems to protect against quenches in all 9,600 magnets, and they worked, said CERN spokesman James Gillies. The problem came in the protection for quenches between magnets, he added.

He said the damaged magnets will have to be repaired or replaced.

The use of superconducting components has led to major advances in particle physics because it allows much higher energies to be used in colliding protons and other particles.

The high-energy collisions, which are recorded in cathedral-sized detectors at intervals on the collider, enable physicists to understand better how the smallest bits of matter - and everything and everyone - are made. They also hope it will take them even closer to the "Big Bang," which many theorize was the massive explosion that formed the universe.

By colliding protons from the nucleus of hydrogen atoms at high energy, the CERN machine is designed to recreate, on a minuscule scale, a view of what matter looked like in the rapid cooling one-trillionth of a second after the explosion.

Physicists have used smaller, room-temperature colliders for decades to study the atom. They once thought protons and neutrons were the smallest components of the atom's nucleus, but the colliders showed that they are made of quarks and gluons and that there are other forces and particles. And they still have other questions about antimatter, dark matter and particle mass they hope they can answer with CERN's new collider.

But making colliders superconducting is a major challenge. In the case of the LHC, it means making the 17-mile accelerator ring colder than outer space.

And the warm-up, cool-down time needed to make repairs - the "thermal cycle" - is longer than for Fermilab, where the simpler design of the magnets only requires two or three days. Brookhaven needs a month, Harrison said.

Brookhaven also had problems with connections between magnets that caused a quench.

"The thing about the LHC was it has not just caused a quench, but there are systems that are supposed to prevent it from melting and dumping helium," Harrison said. "So it was obviously something else that went on as well."

CERN has been receiving words of encouragement from rivals, who stressed that startup problems are common.

Jackson said that despite the problems, there have been great strides in the making of magnets. She said Fermilab had lots of problems with exploding magnets when it was commissioning its first, room-temperature accelerator four decades ago, leading the scientist in charge to paraphrase Alfred Tennyson's 1854 poem "The Charge of the Light Brigade": "Magnets to the left of us, magnets to the right of us, magnets in front of us volley'd and thunder'd."

"They were blowing up all the time," said Jackson.

http://www.physorg.com/news141814025.html

[anbu_kathir]

Wow.. I would love pictures from this one :).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7864087.stm

Love and Light.

[Shakthiprabha.]

thanks for the pictures anbukkathir. It shall take lot of time for me to read and register and for the infos to sink :)

Keep posting good links.

:ty:

[anbu_kathir]

thanks for the pictures anbukkathir. It shall take lot of time for me to read and register and for the infos to sink :)

Keep posting good links.

:ty:

SP .. I was actually talking about the pictures that are not yet there. The pictures in that site are from Hubble, I think. The Herschel ( http://sci.esa.int/science-e/www/area/index.cfm?fareaid=16 ) is yet to be sent to space and has a bigger and a more powerful 'eye' than the Hubble. The Hubble has till date sent some spectacular pictures, and this one will beat them if it is successful :).




Love and Light.

[Shakthiprabha.]

Ive not read it yet. I shall reserve my reply later :)