IR and composers overseas...

[irir123]

Last one year or so, I have been listening extensively to composers like John Williams, Hans Zimmer, Danny Elfman etc - thanks to IR of course, whose use of Western classical components in his scores has more than piqued my interest in these composers - how does IR compare with these composers when it comes to creating grand, opulent, atmostpheric scores ?

let me start with the example of Hans Zimmer's brilliant score for "The Ring" - a spooky score which has all the ingredients of Western(European) classical music - heavy use of the cello for instance - but never overindulges in using eerie sounds - a perfect example of how classical music can be customised as per the movie's dark themes/undercurrent

Listen to it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3UGAyFbyvg&feature=related

from 5:45 onwards its just stunning! I can even hear a rhythmic melody motif from 6:06 to 6:21 which is again repeated from 6:42 to 7:00 - its so good to hear a melodic motif in a spooky theme score! and then again, from 7:18 to 7:36 this motif is beautifully complimented by an awesome string section that weaves in and out (giving a kindof fleeting view of something through the train windows!) - which is immediately followed by the cellos which play perhaps the counterpoint for the original motif (maybe am wrong but it does sound like it) from 7:40 to 8:10 thereafter continued by a lesser no of strings playing the main theme - throughout the underlying (electric) piano keys are constantly plucked as a background!

thats the best description I can give with my limited knowledge of music!

Has IR ever gotten a chance to give such an atmospheric score in movies ?

often I feel that IR comes up with a brilliant motif but never gets a chance to develop the same into a full-fledged long score - the best example is the theme for 'Lajja' which had a very original motif - but before it could grow on me, the theme gets over! tats the tragedy of scoring for Indian movies - similar is the theme for Pandavas (the one towards the end credits)

lets hear from other hubbers

[irir123]

another upcoming composer, Alexandre Desplat (scored for "Syriana", "Golden Compass" etc) brings in his own refreshing original signature to his themes - you can listen to his score for Syriana here : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QZD5G7yLh8 - for a political thriller, multilayered and complex, the score tones down the pace of the images quite well - its almost understated, with the use of the piano for even the fast-moving scenes

last year he received his first Academy Award nomination for Best Original Score for "The Queen"

When IR does music for a desi political thriller, he is often constrained by the need to indulge in bombastic scores - as per the requirements of the filmmaker - besides the movies themselves dont have multi-layered scripts (unless IR happens to work for a Kamal's HEY RAM) - Ramana, a political thriller though different, did not have the nuances/subtleties and hence the themes were mostly bombastic and percussion-based - Pithamagan (though not a political thriller) still had a script that challenged IRs creativity

Besides, IMO, inspite of large sections of the audiences having been used to IR's prowess, IR will not score such themes that will have heavy use of a single instrument such as the piano, as audience perception is still not attuned to receiving such score - IR is very much capable of giving sucn scores - themes for Johnny, Anjali, and the various bits in Kalaignan (especially, the cello piece played by one of the victims Sindhuja before she gets killed, is simply brilliant!)

[irir123]

comeon, Prabhu Ram, NOV, NJV, Jaiganes, Rajasaranam and others in the forum - am awaiting your inputs too !

[Sureshs65]

irir123,

Have you seen or listened to the background score of 'Aa Dinagalu' the Kannada movie? It has something similar to what you have been saying. Illayaraja uses the keyboard to great effect and he creates a threatening atmosphere without being bombastic. The 'sound' is very consistent throughout the movie.

The other movie which I watched recently and was enthralled by the background score was Adoor Gopalakrishnan's "Nizalkuthu". I was initially surprised by this combination. Adoor's movies are almost impossible to get but luckily this one has been released. In the initial part, a dark and ominous minimal background score prevails. Drumbeats accompanied by a melancholic violin. In the second part, Adoor moves the movie into an real plane and there the photographer and Illayaraja come out from their shell. The music here with the wonderful flute is mesmerizing. Some people didn't probably understand Adoor's intention and think that Illayaraja's score was probably an overkill. I think Illayaraja exactly understood Adoor's intention and the whole movie is lovely to watch with this score.

[Sureshs65]

Oops. I meant 'an unreal plane'. Nizhalkuthu did have music in the first half which could have been developed into a full fledged theme.

Talking of themes, you should check out the music score in Wang Kar Woi's "In Mood for Love". The other excellent score is that of Miles Davis in Louis Malle's "Elevator to Gallows".

S.Suresh

[ananth222]

Also try "Requiem for a dream" - a great soundtrack that captures the emotions in the movie:
http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=e2Ma4BvMUwU

Unfortunately in TFM, there is little scope for such soundtracks:
1. TFM music is centered around songs. IR has given some great BGM as build up to great songs, but ultimately, the attention is on the songs.
2. Soundtrack is rarely put together and released separately. Thus even if short parts are used in the movie, we rarely get full track lengths on the CD as in the case of foriegn movies. Barring some exceptions like Cheeni Kum or MX, "Soundtrack" only means "songs" in Indian movies.

But there is no doubt that IR is capable of producing some gems, if the opportunity was there. Check out this short piece from "Thooral ninnu pochu". Scene: Bhagyaraj and Sulochana decide to run away. The music takes us through the early morning time when they are preparing to run away, to when Sulochana is waiting and Bhagyaraj doesn't turn up, and day breaks and she goes back home, faces the father etc. The music could be pieced together into a single track. Listen to the "waiting until daybreak" part:
http://www.esnips.com/doc/08e48b40-566a-42b3-a763-f4503424ff58/Thooral-Ninnu-Pochu

[irir123]

Sureshs65 - thanks for the inputs! IMO, within India, even amongst South indian audiences, who have been groomed by IR to watch out for the BGM, the importance of background scores is completely lost/misunderstood/ignored - perhaps, our movie watchers are not that savvy yet - hopefully it will all change

from my observation, I find that most composers elsewhere stick to a basic minimum quality in their scores, while many composers almost always give quality scores - Thomas Newman for example may not be in the league of John Williams, but his scores are brilliant too! listen to his scores for "Road to perdition" (which is both melancholic and also has an Irish flavor since the script revolves around mafias with Irish origin) and "the good german" (a movie set in the 1930s/40s, the score uses motifs that sound like the ones used during that period) showcase his versatility

or James Newton Howard who is Manoj Shyamalan's 'aasthana' composer - his "The Village" score has strong celtic flavor - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btEv8rb0eTA&feature=related - such amazing celtic feel, the score is very evocative of the spring season - the kindof 'leaves falling' feeling!

We need a Mahendran or a Balu Mahendra with a fine sense of the visuals to give IR artistic challenges to come up with such scores - the various themes of IR for BM's "Moondram Pirai" are just timeless!

[irir123]

btw, the entire album "Eera vizhi kaaviyangal" is so damn evocative of misty, woodsy, ambience, it creates great expectations for IR's BGM score for the whole movie! is there anywhere I can buy this movie online ?

The interludes of 'kanavil midhakkum' are simply our-of-this-world! strings in multiple layers, each set cascading/merging and overlapping with the other, and a stunning bass line accompanying the same! IR can do a lenghty 8-9 min orhcestral piece just using the interludes only!

[irir123]

ananth222 - that piece from Thooral Ninnu Pochu - amazing! and howsoever IR might try not to show, his love for Bach always is seen in the baroque style strings that he always uses for such situations!

and Requiem for a Dream score! isnt the same score used in "LOTR-Two Towers" by Howard Shore (another great composer) ?! so who is the original composer HS or Clint Mansell ?

the point from 2:20 onwards when the strings take over, its mind-blowing!

[njv]

I dont know why IR declined the bala's movie (kamal and another oriental super star). i also heard that he declined to do bloodstone in 80s (probably was too busy). I think its time for IR to come out of TFM and start working on hollywood movies where there is more scope for BGM.

I have seen Guru (malayalam) recently and the BGM through out hte movie is amazing. It deserve to be released as a "sound track".

Got to sleep. Will post more here later.

[crvenky]

njv,
Bloodstone (Indian version) was done by Maestro only. Also, Guru BGM tracks were released as a separate album 'The Music Messiah'.

[raja_fan]

i also heard that he declined to do bloodstone in 80s


What makes Bloodstone special ? ;)
It is nothing but a crap with English dialogues.

[Hulkster]

I dont know why IR declined the bala's movie (kamal and another oriental super star). i also heard that he declined to do bloodstone in 80s (probably was too busy). I think its time for IR to come out of TFM and start working on hollywood movies where there is more scope for BGM.

I have seen Guru (malayalam) recently and the BGM through out hte movie is amazing. It deserve to be released as a "sound track".

Got to sleep. Will post more here later.

I had those thoughts, but then thalaivar does not seem interested in expanding his wings and seems contempt to be serving the indian cinema community. He had loads of chances to become a universally "popular" musician but restricted himself to here by his own virtues. Guess it depends on the character.

[njv]

njv,
Bloodstone (Indian version) was done by Maestro only. Also, Guru BGM tracks were released as a separate album 'The Music Messiah'.
Hmmm.. Some home you and I have wrong VCDs man.

Hmm... I do have Music Messiah CD (I have a story to write about how I got this CD!), couldnt relate this to Guru. Time to lilsten both the albums again.

[rajasaranam]

iBloodstone (Indian version) was done by Maestro only. Also, Guru BGM tracks were released as a separate album 'The Music Messiah'.

I dont remember anything abt this movie except watching it along with a elder than me rajini fan and he commented as ' Music is not so good, ilaiyaraaja Sothapittaru'
Particulary he did not like the 'thagidatha thagidatha' jathis coming as BGM when the film characters enter the cave in search of the Diamond.
This Scene also I remember very vaguely. just wanted to know if there is a online version or DVD available. And to check abt that comment which I remember still...Did Raaja Experiment or really Spoiled it!

Though TMM is based on GURU BGM I think Raaja has improvised and extended the BGM's into different themes to suit the story of TMM!

[irir123]

on a digressive note: "Bloodstone" was one of those movies tat was meant to b serious, but turned out to be unintentionally hilarious! it is rib-ticklingly comic in many ways - a couple talk to Rajini the cab driver abt money n Rajini replies "you always talk abt money - if ppl always talk abt money what happens to love yeah" or something like tat - which i found to be a very funny one-liner

in the cave scene, Rajini gives National Geographic style lessons such as 'tats a python it is not dangerous- tats a cobra, its very dangerous' - which was quite hilarious, tho these scenes were NOT meant 2 b hilarious! - end digression

as for Bharat Bala n IR, i doubt if IR will work with him - strictly IMO, after the skirmish with the late G.Venkateswaran (Mani Ratnams elder brother), IR is wary of GV-type marketing-gurus- producers such as Bharat Bala!

our man will not work unless and until some1 from Warner Bros, Amblin Entertainment, Peter Jackson's production house, etc approach him directly with an offer for a direct film in Hollywood! call it eccentricity, or, arrogance, or implicit faith in his ability, thats the way he is!

[app_engine]

I saw Ashok Amirtaraj's "bloodstone" in a poorly equipped theatre in Palakkad when released (ironically, the name of the theater was "New" which they later changed to Sri Devidurga). It was like a typical masala movie in English:-)

IR's score there was flawless, IMO.

Very nice!

rs, I don't remember the Indianized music for cave scene etc now, but the overall score was quite contemporary for the time it got released. That way even Spielberg movies have oriental music for such scenes, how can it be called sodhappal?

[jaiganes]

JanmaJanmadhaa anubandha, Nooravadhu naal IMO you will get the best atmospheric BGMs and offcourse - Pithamagan. On top of atmospheric and really scary BGMs by Raaja will be Sigappu Rojakkal and Moodu pani (that trance music - is awesome)!!!

[rajasaranam]

rs, I don't remember the Indianized music for cave scene etc now, but the overall score was quite contemporary for the time it got released. That way even Spielberg movies have oriental music for such scenes, how can it be called sodhappal?

I didnt say that it was Sodhappal :) I dont remember anything atall abt this movie but this comment by the other person is etched in my mind and I am trying hard to get my hands on this movie for the past 10 years ( after I became a HCIRF) to just test how Raaja faired in that movie :|

[rajasaranam]

JanmaJanmadhaa anubandha, Nooravadhu naal IMO you will get the best atmospheric BGMs and offcourse - Pithamagan. On top of atmospheric and really scary BGMs by Raaja will be Sigappu Rojakkal and Moodu pani (that trance music - is awesome)!!!

JJA gave me goosepimples in the scene when the kid goes into the Burial ground and starts digging the earth :oops: When I thought abt it later i realised the scene as itis was not a scary one, but its Raaja's score that enhanced it manyfolds :)

[ananth222]

Aathma also has some great bgm. try this one:
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?to93kmaeuwb
theres a baroque style flute (or recorder?) piece at 0:55 that builds up with strings at abt 1:05 and transforms into some mantra chanting - beautifully done!

[app_engine]

moondRam piRai -
A great movie that cannot be watched with family because of the silukku scenes. I hate that irrelevant portions so much, especially because this is one of my all-time fav movies.

Interestingly, it's those portions that have the classiest BGM by Raja that can compete with any international standards.
(And probably one of the best ever rhythms in a song in TFM).

[rajasaranam]

often I feel that IR comes up with a brilliant motif but never gets a chance to develop the same into a full-fledged long score - the best example is the theme for 'Lajja' which had a very original motif - but before it could grow on me, the theme gets over! tats the tragedy of scoring for Indian movies - similar is the theme for Pandavas (the one towards the end credits)

lets hear from other hubbers

Strictly based on my observation:
Its not the tragedy of Indian movies. Even If Raaja Scores for HW this may be the case, because its his inherent quality of not scoring on the whole and develop it, but scoring for the scenes/shots/frames and expressing even minutest of an emotion/feel that flicks past for few seconds. He will end the score abruptly if the scene ends too same way. (Havent we all read abt that magic timer inside his head). Yet he weaves a common thread to the overall mood of the movie.
But All the western composers grasps in the overall mood of the movie and score for it and tend to continue presenting it in variations as the movie proceeds.
A classic example would the Climax of 'kadhalukku Mariyadhai'. Had a western composer composed for this scene he would have grasped the whole mood of the scene and would've composed a thematic score depicting the excitement, confusions, awkwardness, guilt, sympathy, empathy, happiness everything and given a great score. Yet they would've missed what Raaja did here: (http://ursmusically.hipcast.com/stream/f20834f0-f3aa-a530-c5c2-009fa764f5f7.mp3) He entered into every single mind of the characters playing here, every single shot presented to him by the director, singling out the emotions, filling in the gaps ,remaining silent where needed. That's style of Raaja! He may well be written off by the western world if he composed for their movies :| the only areas we can expect him to be on par with HW composers is the title or end title which will run longer than an Indian movie. There too I suspect he will weave all the themes he composed for the movie, put them together and present it to us.
True I've and am enjoying many scores by these composers, One of them is 'Jurassic Park' Flight Theme. I listen to this often without any dinosaurs entering into my mindscape and just enjoy it for the awesome feel of flying high it gives. But when I listen to any of Raaja's BGM scores, The images of the movie had I watched it or the images that I've created myself had I not watched it immediately fills my mind. 'Raaja' connects with the movie so systematically that his scores and movies cannot be alienated from one another. He is a unique film music composer unparalleled IMHO.

[rajasaranam]

Having said that about the 'film music' composer Raaja. There is this other composer Raaja who can give a run to any Western Classical Masters if he starts composing his own 'Symphonies' in its original sense. But there too he will fight the world asking why should he not use a 'udukkai'/'thavil' as a percussion instrument in a 'Symphony'. He will not find many takers for his understanding and presentation of music.
just thinking how they will be outraged if he weaves in a 'naayanam' & 'thavil' into a WC score for one of the movements and returns back to the violin ensemble :lol:
We are fortunate that we bacame fans of Raaja who had broken all rules and thrashed the holiness that surrounded any kind of Labelled 'music'. How daring he was that he took a guitar and entered the 'Banana Grove' in his first movie :). A rare phenomenon in the history that he was accepted by the mass despite the outcry of purists for such daring moves he made in his early years.

[irir123]

rajasaranam - tats a very interesting observation you shared with us - hmmm coming to think of it further, I doubt if movies in Hollywood have storylines such as Netrikkann, Mahanadhi, where the entire script is written so as to show a single artist/actor's performance in a zoomed up manner - the script revolves around the stars and not the other way around! given these circumstances, I can understand IR focussing on each and every scene and abruptly ending the score with the scene - but for films like Moondram Pirai or Idhayathai Thirudaadhey(IT) both of which had some extended sequences in which a character goes in search of another, the mood of the score not only fits the mood on screen, but also transitions smoothly into the following scenes/ sequences and this continuity can be felt throughout even when the script becomes feeble but the handling of it is smooth (like in IT)

Listen to the BGM scores for "Tik, Tik, Tik" - there is one amazing piece which accompanies the scenes wen the abducted stars are being operated upon to remove the diamonds - thats both trancy and classy!

If IR were to score for a film like STAR WARS or Jurassic Park, most likely, he will have a separate theme for the different types of characters in STAR WARS and each type of dinosaur(!) besides having a central theme

how abt the percussion part ? strictly IMHO, for some of the run-of-the-mill masala movies, IR's percussion usage in the BGMs is an overkill - and rightfully so, coz those kind of movies deserved tat kind of percussion usage

[kingvj]

But there too he will fight the world asking why should he not use a 'udukkai'/'thavil' as a percussion instrument in a 'Symphony'. He will not find many takers for his understanding and presentation of music.
just thinking how they will be outraged if he weaves in a 'naayanam' & 'thavil' into a WC score for one of the movements and returns back to the violin ensemble :lol:.

that reminds me of HTNI's track "Do anything" (featured in "Veedu" when the old man goes to see the house.!). My first listening and reaction was "enna idhu..!?! endha instrument-a enga poyi use panniyirukkaru".. then upon multiple hearings, i realised that he was true to the track's title..and breaking conventions and boundaries that "WCM ippadithaan irukkanuma? tamil folk kalandhu WCM irundha enna?"..! :D

[raagas]

One of the most underrated scores of IR happens to be Hindi film Lajja. The score overtook my senses, when i was watching the film. The film is actually a disturbing film about Women oppression, but the score elevated the film to a different. It really deserves to be released as a soundtrack. Afterall, he went to Budapest philharmonic again, for Lajja.

And Raajasaranam, your write-up was interesting. I have a similar fascination for IR's BGMs or beautiful BGMs by any composer, be it in India or West.But then, my opinion is that every composer has his own shortcomings, be it exhaustive knowledge or whatever.A John Williams might not be able to do a Mouna Raagam. Likewise, probably IR might not deliver phenomenal stuff for Jurassic Park. Because the terrains are different. 'Anjali' had some phenomenal BGM and so did Any spielberg film with John Williams. we cant compare or interchange. everyone has their own strengths and shortcomings too.
Yet i strongly believe that IR has all that it takes to compose for any Hollywood film.The problem is he doesnt showcase it, with instrumental albums. Once he dishes out half-a-dozen symphonies, he will be sought after.but who wil convince him? Or let someone convince him to release RPO symphony first. That itself is a litmus test.

[Sureshs65]

I was thinking on the same lines when listening to some songs of Illayaraja from Guru. It is one thing to give a small theme and another to develop it for a longer duration. My feeling is that Illayaraja is one composer who can do both. As Rajasaranam says, Illayaraja ensures that he enhances each and every scene and the style of scoring in Indian films is different from the Hollywood films. I have listened to other good orchestrations from our Indian MDs for their songs but when the instrumental part goes for a longer duration, you feel the repetitiveness creep in. That is not the case with Illayaraja and Thiruvasagam is one good example. Even in 'Poovaar' song, where the tune is very similar in each stanza, the background score keeps changing so well. A complete theme based score or a typical Indian film score, Illayaraja can do both. Of this, I am fully convinced.

[kingvj]

who stopped IR from working on further symphonies, when the first one got shelved? :huh:

[jaiganes]

The subject is getting really interesting...
The best thing I like about raja in film music is his 'minimalism' - He can always do more with violins and extra array of tracks and stereo effects. However he takes the music to the most appropriate boundary between eyes and ears and leaves the audience to make sense of the story than his music. If you listen to his BGM bits (some of them) they are done low key - less beautiful - however the way they would compliment the scene is something to be felt while watching the movie. IF he gets the quality of directors and richer canvas (in terms of story, visuals)
I am sure he wil give a music commensurate to the scale - not overshadowing the visual and not keeping too subdued - the right mix to create appropriate experience.

[Hulkster]

who stopped IR from working on further symphonies, when the first one got shelved? :huh:

It did not get shelved. It got completed but was not released on request of IR due to some critics. Some like subbudu had heard it already. He is interested in symhponies but i have got no idea why he does not want to pursue.

[ananth222]

It would probably make sense to release more "Music Messiah" kind of CDs by remastering BGMs from original score. I put together this 5 minute track of pure music from "Kozhi Koovudhu" (extracted from a 15 minute sequence before the song 'Etho mogam"):
http://www.esnips.com/doc/248816f7-292a-4e55-af11-d53f59d0916e/Kozhi-Koovudhu
This is what we can get with a little bit of cut and paste and mixing, from parts without dialogues. There is some beautiful music during the dialogues too, and if we could put it all together it'd be quite a piece.

[eagle]

It would probably make sense to release more "Music Messiah" kind of CDs by remastering BGMs from original score. I put together this 5 minute track of pure music from "Kozhi Koovudhu" (extracted from a 15 minute sequence before the song 'Etho mogam"):
http://www.esnips.com/doc/248816f7-292a-4e55-af11-d53f59d0916e/Kozhi-Koovudhu
This is what we can get with a little bit of cut and paste and mixing, from parts without dialogues. There is some beautiful music during the dialogues too, and if we could put it all together it'd be quite a piece.

ananth222,
Nice effort :)... I also enjoyed the thooral ninnu pochu piece... Wen i hear these musical bits get a feeling that y still he needs words to accompany his music... :roll:

[njv]

How abt Kalapani. I thought the movie had some interesting BGM (and some usual IR trademark BGM as well)

[NormalMan]

Kalapani BGM was done by Karthik Raja

[kingvj]

What...??? Kaalapani had BGM score by IR with a symphonic orchestra..! KR might have conducted it.

[rajasaranam]

Iam listening to a lot of Ennio Morricone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ennio_morricone) for quiet sometime...I loved his cinema paradiso and the western flick compositions earlier.
I think he is the only other composer who has made me addict so much like Raaja due to the similarities in the composing style.
Iam able to visualise the scenes behind the music. Only other 'Film music composer' in its truest sense I believe.
He also Like Raaja was regarded as a 'mere film music' composer by the purists. While the medium of film itself is of highest order and unless the people involved are not well versed in every form of 'art' they cant create a cinema. That EM and Raaja have deep understanding of the medium in which they are functioning and also deep understanding of various genres of music and Non conforming to set rules are making them artists of highest order than any of those so called 'purists' :)


Listen to some of his Classics from here:
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=92d0c5a58eae7e5dab1eab3e9fa335ca64872f61 bf90fce2
some recommendations:
http://www.mediafire.com/?mr5ougyvbim
http://www.mediafire.com/?2zy2nznqzbv
http://www.mediafire.com/?jzmjxd5iymh

Will be uploading more of world music (http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=92d0c5a58eae7e5dab1eab3e9fa335ca912704bf d697db0b) as and when Time permits.