Foootballers of the week - Peter Schmeichel and Ryan Giggs

[thilak4life]

Hi guys,

Let's discuss, criticize, and dismiss the qualities of the footballers for that week.

We'll have a pair, it would be wider for different opinions.

It could be anything related to 'em or the teams (club and country) in context of the player.

Let's start with:
Zizou (the best player of last generation), and
Messi (the next best player of our generation if he doesn't get injured)

Why 'em? They celebrated their birthdays past two days (23rd june 1972, and 24'th june 1987). :P

Next:

Peter Schmeichel, (Euro 92', 5PL, 99' treble)
Ryan Giggs (10 PL, 2UCL)

[ThalaNass]

Thilak... :D :notworthy:

Zizou - Skill

Messi - Pace

I'll write about 'em later... Anyday, i'll prefer Messi over Kaka or Ronaldinho :P

[ajithfederer]

I havent seen Messi play much but i was a fan of zidane during his real madrid days. His goal to win the 2001(?) edition of champions league is a treat :notworthy:

[Sid_316]

Zizou is my best player of all time ! i havent seen much of maradona or pele.. Though Zizou didnt hav much pace he had brilliant ball control and skill... He can simply destroy a team. The only thing i dont like about him is his temper. No of occasions he had lost his temper for silly reasons :(.i dont know y i thot about this now :P but Some Ppl dont understand wats effective skill and "show" buisness. Bloody Alex F****** once said zidane is just a mere showman! and is hailing that little brat that bloody disgrace as a great player!

Messi on the other hand is slowly shaping up to be a great player. in my opinion he is underhyped :P compared to that bloody rooonaldo :evil: i hope he becomes a great player as he shows lots of promise... but i will prefer kaka than him and i will never ever prefer ronaldo

[Thalafanz]

Guys, who is better (current generation)???

Messi or Robinho??? :)

[thilak4life]

Robinho? Came with a big expectation, and hasn't quite lived up to it. In fact, he doesn't deserve the hype by any means. On his day, quite good, but doesn't match the creative skills and talent of Messi, or Kaka, neither does he score as much as Cristiano Ronaldo. But he's got a future, we'll wait and see. I'd easily pick Robben over him for Madrid's main attacking threat.

Messi is the best under-21 attacking midfielder* I've ever seen. (I haven't seen Maradona at that age, except for the clippings, and he looked great as well. Ditto Cruyff.) At 18, he terrorized the whole world, and at 19, he drew comparisons with Diego maradona (I mean, there are plenty others who are named that, but he's as closest as it gets). He has few similarities with Diego, like small height, but low center of gravity, incredible ball retention, crazy dribbling speed, and tenacity. Hardly good headers of the ball (basically because of the height), both play similar position (Diego more central). Messi's right foot is as good as Maradona's, if not more used for juggling by the kid. Let's not speak about their left foot please, it's just too crazy. Both of 'em injury prone (Messi much more), and in both their cases, it was because of the pressure on right footing as they keep using their left predominantly. This extra pressure on the other foot to hold the balance, and flexing it all over the place, is really a cause of their frequent hamstring pulls, and other complications. And both go down to the ground easily. :P

But what sets them apart is, Diego has done it all, while Messi has to do it in the pitch. I think he will :) Messi is much more mature than Diego was in his age, and is humble learner. He's not a big mouth egomaniac, and he's loyal to his club and country. Messi is endearing and lovable, while Diego is an universally repulsed notorious midget (if you thought Ronaldo is one big winker, then Maradona is a bigger daddy in terms of sly cheating job). His personal life is intact (so far), and I'm sure it could never become as worse as Diego's. No addictions so far. Messi plays in a more "athletic world", while Maradona played in a "more creative era". Messi and Maradona have both got pace, and could be unstoppable if you're a yard back.

End of the day, I have massive expectations of Messi.

*The "attacking midfielder" disclaimer is because of player with the name Luiz Ronaldo, he's simply the most ridiculously talented under-21 striker I've ever seen.

P.S: I'd look like a Diego hater from aforementioned, not at all. I'm a crazy Maradona fan, and would accept being a hypocrite for overlooking his baggage of malevolence.

[thilak4life]

Sid,

Zizou lost his temper more famously in 2006 WC final. Maybe couple of times in La liga from what I've seen. But I think he's quite laidback otherwise. The WC incident painted an ever lasting picture, until then we thought Zizou is quite cool.

[thilak4life]

More of Zidane later. :)

[Sid_316]

hey i remember a couple of incidents he was red carded while in juventus! and during 1998 wc he was suspended for something right? Saudi arabia match he did something i dont quite remember

[thilak4life]

hey i remember a couple of incidents he was red carded while in juventus! and during 1998 wc he was suspended for something right? Saudi arabia match he did something i dont quite remember


Sid, you're right. I remember reading about his cards ratio in some article as well. But red cards, and couple of headbutts aside, I thought he's okay. Not reading too much into stats, as it's misleading about him in general. For example, we have no reservations in saying Vieira or Roy keane lost their temper way too often. Right? Zidane OTOH is an advocate of fair play in general. But I agree he has been succumbed into provocations, and has also got cards for reckless "striker's tackles".

Let me put this way, take Thierry henry. He has been sent off in 02WC (I think that was a part of the reason for their downfall that year), and has behaved like an Insane brat after uefa cup final vs Galatasaray. I'm pretty sure if he had headbutted in an important final like Zizou, he'll be also referred as a hot head, but you and I know he's not one. Remember kuruthipunal, and "breaking point". :-) It's for everyone. And, a psycho like Materazzi is one of his kind in provocations, and has a prolific record in rubbing the wrong side.

[Sid_316]

yea u r right i understand ! "breaking point " came at the wrong moment :( i really wanted zizou to lift the trophy in his last match . But how i wish ppl like him dont react to sledges! like for example how sarwan did to mcgrath :P .

[Sid_316]

Messi >>>> Robiniho :twisted:

[thilak4life]

Sid, Regarding Saudi arabia incident, It was again a provocation that got him a red card. I remember how he recovered after that. I recall Zidane telling how miserable, and helpless he felt watching the team getting crucial results to enter KO phase, and also the round of 16 game. He went on to say that sitting in the bench is much much worse! :)

And the sight of him throwing something onto the pitch (as a celebration) after Laurent blanc's golden goal is something to behold for ages. What passion! What a man!!! :P

[Hulkster]

Messi is overrated. The man has excellent control of the ball with speed and can cut in but that is very reminiscent of giggs at his prime but he was never the best dribbler. Best dribbler would be that of Cristiano Ronaldo before he became more involved in a striking role and Ronaldinho. To me a true dribbler rarely uses his speed but more of technical control. I have seen Messi kept quiet by the likes of hyppia before and that itself is bad knowing how slow hyppia is.


Zidane is certainly not the best dribbler of his generation. There is one person even better but was talked on a lesser light than him. Remember Jay Jay Okocha? :D

[HBK]

Robben is the best pure winger, IMO but injuries and his bald head will never make him a better player than, say Sneijder or Robinho.

Messi > Rubinho. Messi has been on top his game for a long time. His performance earned him the moniker of 'new diego'. But Rubinho was hyped as new Pele right from his debut. This is the problem, because everytime a young footballer comes through the ranks, people call them new pele, new diego, new best etc.

These are the same pundits who called Rooney as new Pele, Ortega as new Maradona, Sisokko as new Viera or better still bruno cheyrou as new Zidane

[thilak4life]

Robben is the best pure winger, IMO but injuries and his bald head will never make him a better player than, say Sneijder

:exactly: But Sneijder plays a more central role, and could never be compared with an impact player like Robben, who is always a threat.


These are the same pundits who called Rooney as new Pele, Ortega as new Maradona, Sisokko as new Viera or better still bruno cheyrou as new Zidane

Rooney in my opinion is a class case of british hype. Of course, he's a good player, but he hasn't cut it at the top. In fact, he was doing good as a young kid, but has only gone regressive after that.

Cheyrou... :lol: Houllier would still defend the purchase with that new-Zidane phrase. :twisted:

[HBK]

comparisons can be funny at times. But i think some have really lived up to the expectations. van Persie comes to mind immediately. van Persie is almost on par with Bergkamp, but he's still not there yet.
But most comparisons are pretty hilarious. Ashton the new Shearer (i'm a newcastle fan), Montolivo the new Totti, Lennon the new Beckham, Cole the new Gasgoine.. etc

[Thalafanz]

More of Zidane later. :)

If there is any awesome clippings of the "footballer of the week", pls do post. Thanks. 8-)

Many say Messi > Robinho. True indeed. :)

[thilak4life]

Jay jay okocha's dribbling is certainly good, but again, EPL defenders come for the leg recklessly, and Okocha has the technique to move the ball away quickly. But again, Okocha could never do that against the best defenders. Which Zidane does with so much ease. Zidane's dribbling is simple, effective, and also, graceful to watch. His moves like a slow motion replay, and looks to have all the time in the world. Sometimes, he gets past the opponents with his first touch, or incredible control. He does that at a frantic pace of top level football match. Getting past Baresis, Cannavaros, Maldinis, Ayalas, etc (the best in the business) is something of a routine for the bald man. Important factor is he never goes for a hiding in big games! In terms of dribbling with countless step overs, there's his ex-Real teammate Figo, but Zidane makes better use of his dribbling.

Well, Messi like Giggs? You havin' a laugh mate. Giggs is a great winger, and a complete professional. Robben is comparable to Giggs, Overmars is comparable to Giggs. But Messi IMO is always a cut above that level. He's not just about pace, he also has got quick sidestep, feint turn, his own version of Cruyff turn (messi turn?), nutmeg (panna), etc. He doesn't do unneccesary stepovers and lose possession cheaply like critiano ronaldo, who is simply put, a poor dribbler, and an ineffective winger who is selfish enough to not pass. Messi's pace with subtle freakish movement is something we don't often see properly. La liga's coverage is superb in that respect, the slow-mo of his runs are a treat to watch! And, he never goes to sleep in big games against big defenders, which likes of Giggs, Cristiano ronaldo, and many others suffer from. The Anfield game is a one-off. don't forget his displays in El Classico, Chelsea, Man utd, etc for Barcelona. Don't forget he's just a kid! If at all there's a similarity with Giggs, it's their commitment, and dedication to their clubs (which likes of Critiano, Figo,etc utterly lacks).

Picture this, Brazil crowd gave him a standing ovation to him, and has been applauded by Bernabue crowd, would you believe it? It's like Rangers fans applauding Celtic player, or liverpool for ManU players. Messi is a legend in the making. :notworthy:

[thilak4life]

comparisons can be funny at times. But i think some have really lived up to the expectations. van Persie comes to mind immediately. van Persie is almost on par with Bergkamp, but he's still not there yet.

Beyond my arsenal bias, I certainly agree with that assessment. RVP is a dangerous player, and has that typical oranje finesse of a Bergkamp. But could he ever shake off his injuries, and reach fitness levels to achieve the full potential? The jury is out.

[Hulkster]

Jay jay okocha's dribbling is certainly good, but again, EPL defenders come for the leg recklessly, and Okocha has the technique to move the ball away quickly. But again, Okocha could never do that against the best defenders. Which Zidane does with so much ease. Zidane's dribbling is simple, effective, and also, graceful to watch. His moves like a slow motion replay, and looks to have all the time in the world. Sometimes, he gets past the opponents with his first touch, or incredible control. He does that at a frantic pace of top level football match. Getting past Baresis, Cannavaros, Maldinis, Ayalas, etc (the best in the business) is something of a routine for the bald man. Important factor is he never goes for a hiding in big games! In terms of dribbling with countless step overs, there's his ex-Real teammate Figo, but Zidane makes better use of his dribbling.

Well, Messi like Giggs? You havin' a laugh mate. Giggs is a great winger, and a complete professional. Robben is comparable to Giggs, Overmars is comparable to Giggs. But Messi IMO is always a cut above that level. He's not just about pace, he also has got quick sidestep, feint turn, his own version of Cruyff turn (messi turn?), nutmeg (panna), etc. He doesn't do unneccesary stepovers and lose possession cheaply like critiano ronaldo, who is simply put, a poor dribbler, and an ineffective winger who is selfish enough to not pass. Messi's pace with subtle freakish movement is something we don't often see properly. La liga's coverage is superb in that respect, the slow-mo of his runs are a treat to watch! And, he never goes to sleep in big games against big defenders, which likes of Giggs, Cristiano ronaldo, and many others suffer from. The Anfield game is a one-off. don't forget his displays in El Classico, Chelsea, Man utd, etc for Barcelona. Don't forget he's just a kid! If at all there's a similarity with Giggs, it's their commitment, and dedication to their clubs (which likes of Critiano, Figo,etc utterly lacks).

Picture this, Brazil crowd gave him a standing ovation to him, and has been applauded by Bernabue crowd, would you believe it? It's like Rangers fans applauding Celtic player, or liverpool for ManU players. Messi is a legend in the making. :notworthy:

Messi's feints and turns are quite similar to Giggs. If you had seen Giggs at his prime you would know his playing style. The art of keeping the ball close to your feet with virtually invisible sidesteps to turn around defenders was mastered by Giggs. Messi is a bit more technically adept but not in the vain of maradonna who could keep the ball even if closed down. And Cristiano Ronaldo is no pushover. Agreed he can be selfish but he is also one of the very few who can keep the ball with or without pace and with tricks to boat. Loads of people dunt like him but then talent is not recognised by character off the field. Nowadays Cristiano Ronaldo is more of a effective winger rather than a dribbler so you wunt get to see him advancing with dribbles like he used to do.

As for Okocha thats what really makes him tick. His superb close control masked by his speed of directional change makes him better than Zidane. Although Zidane is a very good dribbler, he used to resort to a one time pass if he is surrounded unless the angle favours him. Not with okocha though. I have seen him do the rainbow on the goaline and still go past players like they were not there. BTW Maldini and Ayala are good defenders but not the best...the likes of ferdinand, nesta, toure wunt fall for such stuff and the La liga is more fluid with focus on zonal marking unlike EPL which is more cohesive. :D

[thilak4life]

Messi's feints and turns are quite similar to Giggs. If you had seen Giggs at his prime you would know his playing style. The art of keeping the ball close to your feet with virtually invisible sidesteps to turn around defenders was mastered by Giggs.

Of course, that's why I say Robben, Overmars, Giggs come in that category. Messi has something more to his game than being a good winger of sidesteps, and quick feints. The similarity ends with the position, the style and technique is different. Giggs has a good body strength, Messi OTOH has a low center of gravity to keep running after challenges. His height defect has contributed to that. His features are strikingly similar to that of Maradona except for maybe the stout build. Moreover, Messi's pace is out of the world. He's like that beep-beep roadrunner. The rabbit out of the wonderland. :notworthy:


Messi is a bit more technically adept but not in the vain of maradonna who could keep the ball even if closed down.

How many times Messi has kept the ball to his feet, and does a quick "Messi turn". How many times Messi has been applauded for his ball retention, and then quick one-two with Eto'o or Dinho? And, Maradona again is a pioneer of change of pace dribbling than stepovers, and needless jazz. As Cruyff would put it, to keep it simple is the most difficult thing to do. Maradona and Messi keep it simple in terms of beating the players, than making it complicated like a Figo, Rui costa, (portugese style). Look no further than goal against Getafe. That's something that Ronaldo could score only in his dreams. Would never say the same about Robben, Overmars, or Giggs, as they have scored goals by dribbling effectively beyond defenders. Ronaldo, nah! When he is direct, he is good. When he does "dribbling", he is not. It's only a backpass at the end of it.


And Cristiano Ronaldo is no pushover. Agreed he can be selfish but he is also one of the very few who can keep the ball with or without pace and with tricks to boat. Loads of people dunt like him but then talent is not recognised by character off the field. Nowadays Cristiano Ronaldo is more of a effective winger rather than a dribbler so you wunt get to see him advancing with dribbles like he used to do.

Clearly the Ronaldo I see is way too inconsistent. Needless stepovers, and you get a swimming pool dive after the dispossession. The tricks are often freestyle stuff, and not something to be done in a competitive game, as it's ostensibly ineffective, and gives possession away cheaply. And even at that, could he match a performer like John Farnworth is something for someone to decide.


As for Okocha thats what really makes him tick. His superb close control masked by his speed of directional change makes him better than Zidane. Although Zidane is a very good dribbler, he used to resort to a one time pass if he is surrounded unless the angle favours him. Not with okocha though. I have seen him do the rainbow on the goaline and still go past players like they were not there.

How many dribbling moves, or ball retentions (As you say surrounded by players) of Okocha has contributed to goals? How many were against quality defenders? Zidane's style is much more effective. He could move left, right or center, than just confining to the wing. I could name handful goals at the end of a dribbling move, and escapade from a swarm of players. I posted one video with such goals and moves in the other thread.


BTW Maldini and Ayala are good defenders but not the best...the likes of ferdinand, nesta, toure wunt fall for such stuff and the La liga is more fluid with focus on zonal marking unlike EPL which is more cohesive. :D

How could toure, ferdinand, etc could be mentioned in the same breath as Nesta, Maldini, Ayala, etc? IMO, Maldini, Baresi are far better than Nesta, and incidentally Zidane has fared better against Nesta as well. Okocha has time and again came out on top against different EPL defenders, but not against quality fullbacks! OTOH, keeping Zidane quiet is almost impossible. Even in a relatively quiet game, he does something special like scoring a freekick, or an assist. Remember Manu-Juve, or Real-ManU, he has come out on top of Stam, roy keane, and again, keane, ferdinand in 02-03. Zidane has also proved his highest fitness levels at age 0f 30-32 against English defenders in Euro! While Zonal marking is general true, it's no so with Zidane, Ronaldinho,etc. They are clever players that even if they are marked man-to-man, their roaming style creates the space for their teammates. Leave liga, Zidane has done it in Serie A, UCL, World cup, Euros, etc. You name it! By and large, his brilliance could have been worked better in EPL, but he never really liked the league. He has time and again blasted the likes of Keane coming for his legs after UCL games. Finally, to rate Okocha over Zidane in "dribbling" (As in getting past players than just nonstop "stepovers") is subjective. I seriously think the effectiveness is the utmost quality, and doing it against the best testifies the brilliance. And without undermining anyone's estimation of dribbling and players, this appears to be a moment wherein something painfully apparent to some is a mystery to others. :)

[Hulkster]

Wait what your talking about is effectiveness. Dribbling does not necessarily lead to effectiveness on a whole. You could be a dribbler who gets past loads of player but then fail to give the ball but that does not mean you have no skill.

From the viewpoint your talking about of course Zidane and Messi are more effective but when your talking about dribbling only its purely skills. Ronaldo's tricks may be freestyle but they do work. What he is doing now is just plain showcase because he is now more of a striker. I remember around the first few seasons in Manutd most of his stepovers and varied versions of the rollover proved a big problem for even slick defenders like toure. He is one of the few who have mastered the backheel to front stepover and used it effectively most notably against France in the last World Cup.

Real Dribbling is about the tricks and close ball control with your knowledge of direction and people like Ronaldinho, Ronaldo, Manuel Fernandes, Ibrahimovic, Okocha, Zidane and even Joe Cole are masters of that but not Messi.

When you talk about effectiveness as in knowledge of the game it belongs to a all round player viewpoint rather than a dribbler viewpoint so that does not necessarily make them best dribblers.

As about Quick retention that was also Giggs trademark. It may not be that fanciful at that time but it was done in such a speed that you wunt be able to notice it. Messi can beat players but mostly with his speed and close control combined with a little bit more technical ability. Most of the games i watched him in rarely show him taking out defenders without speed. Watchful defenders like Zambrotta can rip him apart.

BTW in which game did Okocha fail to show his skills against the best? The problem is he rarely played for a top club to show his true talent. His career track record has largely been with Paris St Germain and Bolton and now Hull and a few more clubs before that.

Just because a style of play seems fanciful and has stepovers doesnt mean they are showboating. Dribbling is varied and it is not subjective to a common style. But what makes better dribblers are the way they can fool the players and thats where the words tricks come in. :D

[thilak4life]

Ronaldo's tricks may be freestyle but they do work. What he is doing now is just plain showcase because he is now more of a striker. I remember around the first few seasons in Manutd most of his stepovers and varied versions of the rollover proved a big problem for even slick defenders like toure. He is one of the few who have mastered the backheel to front stepover and used it effectively most notably against France in the last World Cup.

which is what he lacks. Effectiveness is not losing possession. None of his "tricks" provide killer pass for meaningful shots on goals, etc, or gets him into good position to impact the game. He's better off being a winger-striker swapping with Rooney, for getting goals in good positions as Rooney creates space for him with his deeper run to collect the ball, and release to others. And that's all there is to it. And oh, "Causing problems" is an overrated word. There's a funny youtube video which I'll link up soon which will shed more evidence regarding his dribbling.


Just because a style of play seems fanciful and has stepovers doesnt mean they are showboating. Dribbling is varied and it is not subjective to a common style. But what makes better dribblers are the way they can fool the players and thats where the words tricks come in.

Stepovers, and its variations is a tool or one of the many "ways" of dribbling. The last real prolific winger to use it countless times without losing the ball is Figo. :thumbsup: The best to use that remains Luiz Ronaldo. :notworthy: Cristiano ronaldo's looks sloppy as he looks to be too stiff and put on, leaving the defender to dispossess him easily.


BTW in which game did Okocha fail to show his skills against the best? The problem is he rarely played for a top club to show his true talent. His career track record has largely been with Paris St Germain and Bolton and now Hull and a few more clubs before that.

In which game against quality fullbacks/centerbacks, does his dribbling work to a good effect, to set up his teammates? Very less. Maybe that man utd game where Bolton dominated, and he got famous for dribbling. But I could name many for Zidane where he dribbles past "greatest defenders with much ease. As I said before, without undermining anyone's estimation of dribbling and players, this appears to be a moment wherein something painfully apparent to some is a mystery to others.


As about Quick retention that was also Giggs trademark. It may not be that fanciful at that time but it was done in such a speed that you wunt be able to notice it. Messi can beat players but mostly with his speed and close control combined with a little bit more technical ability. Most of the games i watched him in rarely show him taking out defenders without speed. Watchful defenders like Zambrotta can rip him apart.

Giggs? ball retention? He's more of a pure winger. By calling it quick retention, you mean the holding the ball for sometime, and release it to other players? Of course, that's what all wingers do. But Messi "guarentees" a dangerous move by holding onto it much longer (which is what I referred as ball retention), and he immediately gets into dangerous position around the goal area with quick 1-2s. Moreover Giggs is a RWM or LWM, Messi plays a playmaker from the wings as well as center. He swaps a lot with Eto'o, and sometimes goes to the left, and Ronaldinho goes middle (With Eto'o right), and many such variations. I mean he plays in a very attacking 4-3-3 formation than 4-4-1-1/4-5-1 (as is the case with Giggs in left/right midfield). Last year of course, all three were injured for half the year.


Messi can beat players but mostly with his speed and close control combined with a little bit more technical ability. Most of the games i watched him in rarely show him taking out defenders without speed. Watchful defenders like Zambrotta can rip him apart.

Without speed, no one can get past the tracking defenders. Every dribbler needs to get away with pace. If you're referring that "pace" is the "main quality" of Messi, you're wrong. And you say "little bit more technical ability", well it's much more than that. His reading of the game, and ability to find the moves are top draw. Maybe not a visionary in finding the striker like Laudrup, Bergkamp, etc, but he doesn't need to be, as he makes it up with umm, dribbling, and short passes. If you mean Messi's juggling, sidestep feint, panna, and quick turns are all dependent on pace. It's just as every other dribbler who follows a stepover with quick pace run to the wrong side of the defender!! :roll:

Zambrotta or such defenders ripping him apart? haha. This is a rarity. OTOH, I remember Mr.Zambrotta himself doing that to Ronaldo in the barca tie. Messi caused way more problems to the whole united back4! Not to mention, a certain young footballer named Evra, a quality fullback.


Just because a style of play seems fanciful and has stepovers doesnt mean they are showboating. Dribbling is varied and it is not subjective to a common style. But what makes better dribblers are the way they can fool the players and thats where the words tricks come in

Better dribblers are those who can fool the players? of course, thats what Messi does as well! From Robben, Giggs, Overmars Figo, or what have you! They possess their technique, but Messi is simply unstoppable, and IMO, better than most other promising footballers like Kaka, Robinho, etc. Technically, and mentally, I'm absolutely convinced. Physically, not there yet.

By definition,Dribbling (http://www.answers.com/topic/dribbling-2?cat=technology) refers to the maneuvering of a ball around a defender through short skillful taps or kicks with either the legs (football/soccer), hands (basketball), stick (bandy) or swimming strokes (water polo). The purpose of such an action is to bring the ball past a defender legally and to create opportunities to score.

It doesn't say "stepovers" makes a dribble. You're of course bringing "skills" like stepover. Messi has done it as well, but its not his famous move. I'm glad as well because he's deadly already. And it's of no use, unless it's used to good effect. AND, do it in the highest level, ala Ronaldo (fat one) and Zidane is what matters.

[ThalaNass]

More of Zidane later. :)

If there is any awesome clippings of the "footballer of the week", pls do post. Thanks. 8-)


Yoga, Here you go!! (http://youtube.com/watch?v=dYUtKKbBTkw) :smokesmirk:

[Hulkster]

Well Messi did give us a tough time to players like Evra and Brown but neither are those two great defenders. Evra is a tackler who watches when he feel it is right but not really natural. He is more of a attacking left wingback. Brown is a very good tackler but as a defender still lacks good reading of the game.

I mentioned about the Ronaldo that was in focus before he became more of a striker. The Ronaldo your talking about is what he is now, a player more aware of his teammates to pick out the right pass, much more effective and complete but a major reduction in dribbling skills and the ability to be a striker. But the previous Ronaldo was way more lethal in dribbling devoid of all those skills.

I think you still dunt get me...If you dribble past one and two and you lose possesion it still sounds ineffective but the focus is that he still can dribble as in on the moment. Watching Ronaldo before he became what he is now was quite a entertainment especially with his arrogant mockery of players till they resorted to fouling him. Speed is needed to get past players but it is not necessarily dribbling. I could just run past players without doing anything a.k.a Owen and Henry but it wunt count as dribbling. That is why Messi wunt be able to get past many defenders.

The La liga is non-compact which makes it easier for players to move around the ball so you can see alot of "dribblers" around but whether they are able to hold their lot against the likes of watchful defenders who love to mark is another thing. I dunt remember Messi making any progress when he was marked. In fact last season the holding man for the team was Ronaldinho rather than Messi and Ronaldinho's threat let Messi have abit more of space which is why defenders rarely took hold of him. We shall see how skillful he is when he comes up against man to man marking teams like that of Greece in Euro 2004.

Well you seem not to know Okocha that well. But Okocha was as effective as Zidane was and maybe more. Blame the media spotlight for falling on much of Zidane that Okocha was not spotted that much till his forays with Nigeria in the world cup 98. Zidane is a very good all round player but as the best dribbler it would be something of a blasphemy. He is World Class but not World Best. Let us remember that the quality of players surrounding Okocha and Zidane also plays a part. For Zidane he had the likes of Trezeguet,Henry in France and Ronaldo, Morientes in front of him. Okocha played around a good team but not with clinical finishing abilities of the players that Zidane had.

And besides Zidane even though he could dribble very well mostly did it when the game was on the flow of his team or if his team were fluid enough. Compare that to Okocha who could do it despite the apparent less fluidity in his team.

If you see dribbling as a definition of words it sounds logical but when you see it visually it is different. Just running past players isnt dribbling. There is more to it. And although the Media loves to frame Ronaldo as a stepover fanatic he has more in his box then just stepovers. :D

[thilak4life]

Well Messi did give us a tough time to players like Evra and Brown but neither are those two great defenders. Evra is a tackler who watches when he feel it is right but not really natural. He is more of a attacking left wingback. Brown is a very good tackler but as a defender still lacks good reading of the game.

He didn't play in the left much, and hence, there was not much of work for Brown. But Evra was in back foot the whole game, and "the attacking left wingback" played a defensive leftback, as he couldn't afford to go front. ManU clearly played negative 10-man-behind-the-ball to win ugly against barca. Let's not forget how Carrick, Scholes, and co track back to form a swarm around Messi.


I mentioned about the Ronaldo that was in focus before he became more of a striker. The Ronaldo your talking about is what he is now, a player more aware of his teammates to pick out the right pass, much more effective and complete but a major reduction in dribbling skills and the ability to be a striker. But the previous Ronaldo was way more lethal in dribbling devoid of all those skills.

Ronaldo's dribbling is piss poor at times, and sometimes quite good (for last couple of years especially). Maybe once or twice every now and then you see a successful dribble, but once or twice, we might even see an effective cross. Otherwsie he's rank bad in dribbling, and is quite rightly rebuked. The video (i think somewhere from between, it shows how insipid he is),be forewarned that it's not for Ronaldo lovers:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=L_Lh9ZLNuiY&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=gYgbmQ_OaJM&feature=related
(after barca flop)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=fczVUKjnOdY&feature=related
(final one after milan disaster)
Would be hard to get such a video of any other player. That being said, I'd still give credit to his goal scoring rate which I have done already. To me, he's no more than a goal poaching winger-striker.


I think you still dunt get me...If you dribble past one and two and you lose possesion it still sounds ineffective but the focus is that he still can dribble as in on the moment. Watching Ronaldo before he became what he is now was quite a entertainment especially with his arrogant mockery of players till they resorted to fouling him.

Yeah, dribbling-for-the-moment, but the idea of dribbling is to get past the players to get into a goal scoring position. Actually watching Cristino doing the needless stepovers, and losing the ball/backpass to the fullback is ridiculously hilarious. :lol:


Speed is needed to get past players but it is not necessarily dribbling. I could just run past players without doing anything a.k.a Owen and Henry but it wunt count as dribbling.

Again, you're messing the definition of dribbling to suit your favorite. :lol:

You seem to underrate "pace", and also claim that players like Henry, Messi, etc are only about pace? :lol: If thats the case then why players like Defoe,etc are ineffective dribblers, and shoot as soon as they get the ball to their feet? Why not athletes to play the sport? Could they play football? Then, marathon runners, and sprinters shoul be in the football pitch, they earn and get more spotlight. :lol: If only that was logical. And oh, Maradona also used his pace, Garrincha used his pace, Pele used his pace, and so on, I think we should start discrediting them one by one. :)


That is why Messi wunt be able to get past many defenders.

Is this a joke? :rotfl: :rotfl2: Somewhere (http://youtube.com/watch?v=D5o2KwF6MlA) he belongs
(http://youtube.com/watch?v=HNtDTMQHo08&feature=related)


The La liga is non-compact which makes it easier for players to move around the ball so you can see alot of "dribblers" around but whether they are able to hold their lot against the likes of watchful defenders who love to mark is another thing. I dunt remember Messi making any progress when he was marked. In fact last season the holding man for the team was Ronaldinho rather than Messi and Ronaldinho's threat let Messi have abit more of space which is why defenders rarely took hold of him. We shall see how skillful he is when he comes up against man to man marking teams like that of Greece in Euro 2004.

This pretty much proves that you want to slate Messi with a qualified reading of La Liga ;) Unga comedy-ku alave illama pochu, First "Messi can't get past his players" is reeling as such. Now this? :roll: Maybe you would support him if he played in your favorite league called EPL, and your favorite club, ManU ;)

Leave Liga, before his Injury, the game against Rangers, celtic, etc. There's this small matter of UCL, where he has proved time and again how lethal he is with his "dribbling". All said, Liga is still a technical league where you don't get that many easy tap-ins like a certain Cristiano ronaldo, and Messi never does a winking celebration even if has done something special. :lol2: La liga is a different league, and it has its own complications like quality fullbacks who won't come for the legs, and are difficult to fool. And they are tactically much stronger. I'd go on to say that the quality of Getafe, Sevilla, etc is better than Everton (yes), Aston villa, etc :lol2: Of course, Valencia, Athletico madrid, etc are quite good as well. In EPL, you never see a club like Villareal getting 2nd (it's like a mid-table club in England from its size). La liga is much more competetive than a top-4 league like EPL (ManU, Chelsea, liverpool, Arsenal), the title is of course between two clubs, Barca and Real (but the rest of the league are capable of pipping 'em as well). Of course, many prefer EPL for its pace, and end-to-end game. Fair enough. But liga is still more difficult. Technique is much more important than physique. I applaud that, as the game is getting ugly with ruffians like Robbie savage in the field. :hammer:


Well you seem not to know Okocha that well.

Without undermining anyone's knowledge of Okocha, pray tell what was Okocha's worthy contribution against Spain in 98' WC (incidentally, thats the game which was won by the other Nigerian players with some help by poor goalkeeping by Spain). What was he doing against Denmark? :banghead: A quality performance against Bulgaria, and he's as effective than Zidane? :banghead: Incidentally, there was spotlight on Okocha, as he made to the midfielders of the tournament. A good player, yes, but as great as Zidane. Heck, not many players are as good as Zidane. We could grant him that.


But Okocha was as effective as Zidane was and maybe more. Blame the media spotlight for falling on much of Zidane that Okocha was not spotted that much till his forays with Nigeria in the world cup 98. Zidane is a very good all round player but as the best dribbler it would be something of a blasphemy.

When did I say Zidane is the best dribbler of his generation? He is the best player of his generation is what I've called him, and quite rightly too. Since you brought the context of dribbling, I said Zidane is effective than Okocha, and actually underrated in dribbling as such, because he doesn't showboat. Zidane pulls a trick to fool the opponent, and not to get fouls like you-know-who, and get 'em carded. :hammer: And I did say Okocha is a good dribbler, but against better defence, is he good enough? You may bring that solo goal for Frankfurt, but how many times has he done it? Not much.

And now that you bring world cup 98, here's a question for you (Again without undermining your knowledge of okocha), where was Okocha in all three goals in their best match against Spain? A spectator. Of course, he has his moments of dribbling in the games (for which he was taken in the team of the tournament).


He is World Class but not World Best. Let us remember that the quality of players surrounding Okocha and Zidane also plays a part. For Zidane he had the likes of Trezeguet,Henry in France and Ronaldo, Morientes in front of him. Okocha played around a good team but not with clinical finishing abilities of the players that Zidane had.

This is an excuse. If Okocha was indeed as good as Zidane as you make him sound, he would have been bought by big clubs like Milan, Juve, Madrid, Barca, or what have you. And, he did play for considerably good European clubs like Fenebarche, Frankfurt, PSG, etc. Zidane came from Cannes, and then, Bordeaux. For bordeaux, he took them to UEFA cup final, with man of the match displays against Milan, Betis, etc. :huh: FYI, Bordeuax were on a slump since late-80s, while PSG were a bigger name around the time! Okocha played for PSG, and if he's as good, could have done a Ronaldinho-like move to a bigger club from there. :-|

For Nigeria, Okocha had Kanu, who is more than capable goal scorer. In fact, likes of Orumi, Oliseh, Babangida, and co had a good tournament in 98' as well, actually offered better support than Djorkaeff/Dugarry/Trezeguet for France. Only Henry, Vieira, and Petit had better tournaments, along with the back-4. Zidane was doing some of it all by himself. And If only Nigeria were "collectively" (including Messr. Okocha, who lost possession by overcooked skills, and one that cost the team in Round of 16, the goal from Laudrup's cheeky chip to Sand did as such) good, they could have gone further. They got thrashed by Danes. France however had a good defence, and Zidane didn't lose possession cheaply as mentioned above.


And besides Zidane even though he could dribble very well mostly did it when the game was on the flow of his team or if his team were fluid enough. Compare that to Okocha who could do it despite the apparent less fluidity in his team.

I remember France, Madrid, Juve, Bordeaux playing piss poor, and Zidane does one magic move to help his team. So much for your subjective excuses to undermine Zidane. Keep it coming.


If you see dribbling as a definition of words it sounds logical but when you see it visually it is different.

Just running past players isnt dribbling. There is more to it.
To get the ball, and then the burst of pace to beat the defenders is not dribbling, right? :lol:

Summarizing, getting past players by pace isn't dribbling in your book. Maybe you should document the difference between visuals, and words, and send it to FIFA. :lol2:


And although the Media loves to frame Ronaldo as a stepover fanatic he has more in his box then just stepovers. :D
Yes, like goal scoring. And hope he stays that way, as he's a costly dribbler to have. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6Lxr6_jQeo)

[Sid_316]

Nice Video about Ronaldo :D ... finally some ppl accept that ronaldo is a disgrace that too in public :D. they narrated exactly what he does in a match lol!

Last one was even good :lol: :twisted:

[Hulkster]

The video of Messi proves my point that his style is quite similar to Giggs with more feints while Giggs has a wicked change of direction in his prime. :D I suggest you look at Giggs videos and you would realise that the difference is in the tricks.

And yes dribbling is never getting past the player with pace. As i said it looks quite logical on words but visually it is different. The thing about Messi is he is good but not a dribbler to scare everyone out of their wits as his silence against leftbacks like Ashley Cole proves.

Well Ronaldo haters are many and they are the types that will make anything out of Ronaldo. Cant help it that he is arrogant and i can see why he "inspires" such videos. I guess i shall leave it here about Ronaldo as the viewpoint of his preferred style of skills is not favourable to you and you still classify him as stepovers related when he has more than that.

Well i am not sure how to say this but Okocha was underrated and never came into the spotlight until recently. Players like Kanu are good but not goalscorers in the mould of Henry and in which part did djorkaeff and dugarry give no support? Djorkaeff is a playmaker that was overshadowed only by Zidane and Petit is a tough midfielder as well. Oliseh and Orumi are good but not the best of players compared to Michael Laudrup and Thomas Helveg. Okocha has dribbled against a better defence just that he only sees them rarely due to his overall career spanning at less known clubs whereas Zidane has had more coverage due to his "big club player" tag.

BTW Defoe is not a ineffective dribbler. He can dribble as proven against the goal against Arsenal in the 5-4 loss in 04-05.

Well i guess the opinions clash too much and i will only say wait for next season :D

[thilak4life]

So, few more assertions have come to light from that post:

Messi's style has its similarities with Giggs. But Messi does many things that Giggs (or similar wingers like Overmars, Robben,etc) can't do. Point is, Messi also has an uncanny latin american style, resembling Maradona. In other words, Maradona's style also has sidestep, feints, etc that any winger uses, but he is better than 'em in that, and possess much more. Ditto with Messi. So, it's no coincidence that Messi is one of the youngest ever contenders of Ballon d'or and WPOTY.

In fact, I had already said that:


Of course, that's why I say Robben, Overmars, Giggs come in that category. Messi has something more to his game than being a good winger of sidesteps, and quick feints. The similarity ends with the position, the style and technique is different. Giggs has a good body strength, Messi OTOH has a low center of gravity to keep running after challenges. His height defect has contributed to that. His features are strikingly similar to that of Maradona except for maybe the stout build. Moreover, Messi's pace is out of the world.

Just the way, Henry's style has its similarities with Defoe, but Henry can do much more than what Defore can. Just the way, Shevchenko's qualities has similarities to Dean ashton, but he has something more than just that. Etc...

And it's funny that you discredit Messi but claim that Defoe is an effective dribbler (from a single goal). :lol2: The defoe we see is actually a old fashioned striker who shoots the minute the ball comes to his feet.

"The thing about Messi is he is good but not a dribbler to scare everyone out of their wits as his silence against leftbacks like Ashley Cole proves."

This is not even funny. But plain ignorance. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ic5ns8J0Nhw&feature=related#) (A sample to enlighten :hammer: )

And oh, Okocha is perhaps underrated to you, but anyone who is watching considerable football, knows him, and rate him where he belongs. This is further testified by his selection into team of the tournament that year.

FACT - Your point that Nigerian players don't provide support for Okocha to exhibit his brilliance is simply a joke. All nigerian goals came from elsewhere, and NOT from Okocha. While the players like Henry/Petit, the back-4 provided much needed support with their goals. Again if you're ignorant, Henry played left midfield, and NOT a striker. He was converted much later when he moved to Arsenal. So, your comparison of Kanu to him in the context of 98 world cup is out of question. Duggary had one worthy header in the tournament, and was very much ineffective as the main striker. Trez didn't get that many appearances. Djorkaeff played as the striker, rather than as a attacking midfielder, except when Zidane was suspended for the red card. That's where his lack of brilliance exposed and also how dependant Les Blues were on Zidane. And further proved by 2002WC without Zidane, and now in Euros08. Zidane is that special. End of.

FACT - Okocha's dribbling didn't do much for his team, but surely caught some attention (and hence, he made it to the team of the year). Simple as.

FACT - Zidane remains the most effective dribbler of the two, and has shone single-handedly at times with almost all his teams(Cannes, Bordeaux, Juventus, Real, France) . That's the mark of a great player, and he has proved that time and again. Period.

[thilak4life]

Messi vs Real madrid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WcJozRTNIk)

Messi (Getafe goal) vs Maradona (England goal) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXzXsdZJ5AQ)

Messi at 18 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sdkl75zBh-k&feature=related)

[thilak4life]

Nice Video about Ronaldo :D ... finally some ppl accept that ronaldo is a disgrace that too in public :D. they narrated exactly what he does in a match lol!

Last one was even good :lol: :twisted:

One more (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9g-lrXevj64)

Pretty much the reason why he wil always be treated a sc*m.

Btw, the "experts" in that video are from Irish television Rte, who are far far more neutral and don't give a damn to the propaganda from sky/bbc and other English press. :)

That experts panel include an ex-ManU player, and a long time ManU fan Dunphy, who for the record wrote Roy keane's biography. :)

[HBK]

Come with new two players man.. I think this thing has been going on for months..

[thilak4life]

Come with new two players man.. I think this thing has been going on for months..

Done.

[thilak4life]

Unforgettable moments:

Schmeichel : Penalty save of Marco Van basten in Euro 92 semis, and Danes go on to win the tournament. (Dennis Bergkamp penalty save in 99' will be close second)

Giggs : Arsenal 99' FA Cup goal.

As an Orange and Arsenal fan, it's painful to recollect these moments. But hey, there you go.

[HBK]

Cant say i hate either of them. But i don't like them either. Great Dane and Giggs have been great for Man Utd.

Obviously Giggs goals vs Arsenal is the one that truly solidified his status as a modern day legend. He was poor last season. Even some Utd fans asked Ferguson to drop him for the league matches, but he has done his job, particularly when he scored on the last match.

Never been a fan of Peter, but he was amazing back in the days. Had some blunders, but normally solid