Tamil Brahmi inscriptions and other archaeological finds

[aravindhan]

From the Hindu:
http://www.hindu.com/2005/04/03/stories/2005040301931400.htm

CHENNAI, APRIL 2. In an important discovery, the Archaeological Survey of India (ASI), Chennai Circle, has located the habitational site of the Iron Age people who were buried in big urns at Adichanallur, 24 km from Tirunelveli town in Tamil Nadu. Although several urn burial sites such as at Amirthamangalam and Perumbair, both near Chengalpattu, have been discovered in the State, this is the first time the place where these people lived has been found.

The site discovered now is on the north and north-western slopes of the urn-burial mound at Adichanallur. It is a few hundred metres away from the burial fields.

T. Satyamurthy, Superintending Archaeologist, ASI, Chennai Circle, said, "We have succeeded in locating the habitational site at Adichanallur. We are excavating in a place where we are getting the materials of a town where people actually lived."

Two things are confirmed, he said. First, the settlement was inside a fortified town. "The fortification wall has been traced. There is a regular alignment wall." Second, the potters' quarters have been found inside the fortification wall. Discovery of three potter's kilns with ash, charcoal and broken pots showed wet pots/urns were baked with fire. Artefacts, including an iron knife, carnelian beads, terracotta beads, couex beads, bone implements and potsherds with graffiti have also come to light.

According to Mr. Satyamurthy, the urn-burial site could be dated "to about 1,000 B.C," that is 3,000 years ago. "Contemporary to that, we have got the habitational site."

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Not only in Adichanallur. If we excavate the things in poompuhar,thondi,musiri and also down south Indian ocean all will speak about tamil history which is the basis for indian, why, the world history.

Some of them have been deciphered. The Indian government is thinking that Indian concept will go. But all these excavations will only strenghthen India.

Otherwise some westeners have to come to do this job. In thirsty to know their (european) history they have deciphered all these things and accidentally tamilian history has been found out.

[HindustaniLadka]

//tamil history which is the basis for indian, why, the world history//

Mr. Gandhi Vandayar, no offense or anything, but can you please stop repeating the exact same thing over and over again. I agree with many of the things you have said earlier(ex. Indians originated from the Indus valley area, AIT is false, etc.), but i cant really agree with the idea that Tamil is the root of everything because there is not significant scientific or archeological evidence. :)

[suressh]

:)


//tamil history which is the basis for indian, why, the world history//

Mr. Gandhi Vandayar, no offense or anything, but can you please stop repeating the exact same thing over and over again. I agree with many of the things you have said earlier(ex. Indians originated from the Indus valley area, AIT is false, etc.), but i cant really agree with the idea that Tamil is the root of everything because there is not significant scientific or archeological evidence. :)

- yeah yeah... you can readily agree what you WANT TO agree ... aint you HL ... there u never care for any SIGNIFICANT SCIENTIFIC OR ARCHEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE... right? :wink:

now, please dont shoot out your IDIOTIC questions... we are not here to answer to people who had already decided on WHAT TO AGREE AND WHAT NOT TO AGREE ....
:)

[HindustaniLadka]

what the hell are you talking about? :huh:

[jaiganes]

Thanks aravindhan for posting the link. I was trying to get the link for a different thread. There seems to be very slow progress on this. Also Indian government's archaic archaeological survey is so guarded that it doesn't invite foreign scholars and teams which have better expertise in tools like carbon dating and bone fragment analysis in this venture. Adichanallur find IMHO is a National Geographic special.

[aravindhan]

Thanks aravindhan for posting the link. I was trying to get the link for a different thread. There seems to be very slow progress on this. Also Indian government's archaic archaeological survey is so guarded that it doesn't invite foreign scholars and teams which have better expertise in tools like carbon dating and bone fragment analysis in this venture. Adichanallur find IMHO is a National Geographic special.
A National Geographic special is more than merited, but for now I'd even settle for a few blurred black and white paparazzi photos of what they have found, particularly any inscriptions!

And yes, it would be really good to have the world's leading experts involved. But that's the way the ASI works - they found urns from around 500 BC with Tamil Brahmi inscriptions in Adichannulur a few weeks ago, and they didn't think of involving Iravatham Mahadevan who's right there in Chennai!

[aravindhan]

This month's issue of Frontline has three articles on the Adichanallur excavations, which may be of interest to hubbers following this section.

About what the latest finds tell us:
http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl2213/stories/20050701000106500.htm

About the inscriptions found in the last round of excavations:
http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl2213/stories/20050701000307000.htm

General background to the excavations:
http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl2213/stories/20050701000207200.htm

[Eelavar]

[tscii:e074a0ba58]HL :

I don't think that Indians originated from the Indus valley area....

It's false Indians originated somewhere from the south of actual Indian continent ... in my personal opinion.

Now the place is underwater...(Kumari Kandam)

If Indus Valley area is the place of birth of Indians, why have we found the most anciant humans skeleton in south.... ??
(I don't talk about East Africa where Tumai was found but India.)

Our knowledge is very little...Our past is very hughe...

The archeological evidence of that , are the underwater cities found in the Bay of Cambay and in Mahabalipuram.

read that , cutted and pasted from : http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/op/2002/06/18/stories/2002061800030200.htm


Vedic literature and the Gulf of Cambay discovery


It is sad to note how intellectuals in India are quick to denigrate the extent and antiquity of their history, even when geological evidence like the Sarasvati River or archaeological evidence like the Harappan and Cambay sites are so clear.


THE RECENT find of a submerged city in the Gulf of Cambay, perhaps as old as 7500 BC, serves to highlight the existence of southern sources for the civilisation of ancient India. The Gulf of Cambay find is only the latest in a series that includes Lothal (S.R. Rao), Dholavira (R.S. Bisht) and others in Gujarat. These discoveries have been pushing the seats of ancient Indian civilisation deeper into the southern peninsula. We should not be surprised if more such sites are discovered in South India, especially the coastal regions, for the south has always played a significant if neglected role in ancient India going back to Vedic times.

I have argued for such a coastal origin for Vedic civilisation in my recent book Rig Veda and the History of India. This is largely because of the oceanic character of Vedic symbolism in which all the main Rig Vedic Gods as well as many of the Vedic rishis have close connections with samudra or the sea. In fact, the image of the ocean pervades the whole of the Rig Veda. Unfortunately many scholars who put forth opinions on ancient India seldom bother to study the Vedas in the original Sanskrit and few know the language well enough to do so. The result is that their interpretation of Vedic literature is often erroneous, trusting out of date and inaccurate interpretations from the Nineteenth century like the idea that the Vedic people never new the sea!

Literary evidence


The Rig Veda states that "All the hymns praise Indra who is as expansive as the sea" (RV I.11.1) Agni wears the ocean as his vesture (RV VIII 102.4-6). The Sun is called the ocean (RV V.47.3). Soma is called the first ocean (RV IX.86.29). Varuna specifically is a God of the sea (RV I.161.14). These are just a few examples of out of well over a hundred references to samudra in the Rig Veda alone, including references to oceans as two, four or many (RV VI.50.13). This is obviously the poetry of a people intimately associated with the sea and not of any nomads from land-locked Central Asia or Eurasia.

Vedic seer families like the Bhrigus are descendants of Varuna, the God of the sea as the first Bhrigu is called Bhrigu Varuni — Bhrigu, the son of Varuna. The teachings of Varuna to Bhrigu are found in the Taittiriya Upanishad and Taittiriya tradition of the Yajur Veda, which has long been most popular in South India. The recent find at sea in the Gulf of Cambay is near Baroach or Bhrigu-kachchha, the famous ancient city of the very same Bhrigus.

These oceanic connections extend to other important Vedic rishis as well. In the Rig Veda, Agastya, who became the main rishi of South India, has twenty-five hymns in the first book of the Rig Veda and is mentioned in the other books as well. He is the elder brother of Vasishta who himself has the largest number of hymns in the text (about a hundred), those of the seventh book. Both rishis are said to have been born in a pot or kumbha, which may be a vessel or ship (RV VII.33.10-13). Vasishta is specifically connected to Varuna who was said to travel on a ship in the sea (RV VII.88.4-5). Both Vasishta and Agastya are descendants of Mitra and Varuna, the God of the sea.

Vishvamitra in the Rig Veda (IIII.53.16) mentions the sage Pulasti, who was regarded as the progenitor of Ravana and Kubera and whose city, Pulasti-Pura was located in ancient Sri Lanka. He is mentioned along with Jamadagni, another common Rig Vedic sage and the father of Parshurama, the sixth incarnation of Lord Vishnu, before Rama and Krishna, whose main sphere of activity was in the south of India.

Manu himself, the Vedic primal sage and king, is a flood figure and the Angirasas, the other main seer family apart from the Bhrigus, join him in his ship according to Puranic mythology. Southern peoples like the Yadus and Turvashas were said to have been glorified by Indra (RV X.49.8) and are mentioned a number of times in the Rig Veda as great Vedic peoples. So we have ample ancient literary evidence for the Vedic seer and royal families as connected with the ocean and southern regions.

The Cambay site is in the ancient delta of the now dry Sarasvati River, one branch of which flowed into the Gulf of Cambay, showing that this site was part of the greater Sarasvati region and culture, which was the main location for Harappan cities in the 3300-1900 BCE period. Such an ocean front was important for maritime trade for the inland regions to the north. In this regard, important Vedic kings like Sudas were said to receive tribute from the sea (RV I.47.6).

When the Greeks under Alexander came to India in the Fourth century BCE, the Greek writer Megasthenes in his Indika, fragments of which are recorded in several Greek writings, mentioned that the Indians (Hindus) had a record of 153 kings going back over 6400 years (showing that the Hindus were conscious of the great antiquity of their culture even then). This would yield a date that now amounts to 6700 BCE, a date that might be reflected in the Gulf of Cambay site which has been tentatively dated to 7500 BCE. So the old Vedic-Puranic king lists may not be that far off after all!

Material evidence


A few scholars, like Witzel in the United States — in spite of such massive evidence as the Sarasvati River and its intimate connection to Vedic literature — still try to separate Vedic culture from India and attribute it to a largely illiterate and nomadic culture that migrated into India from the northwest of the country in the post-Harappan period (after 1500 BCE). Ignoring all other evidence that connects the Vedic and Harappan, they point out the importance of the horse in the Rig Veda and argue that not enough evidence of horses has been found in Harappan sites to prove a Vedic connection. They fall back upon this one shot argument to ignore any other evidence to the contrary.

However, one should note that these invasionists or migrationists are even more deficient in horse evidence to prove their own theory. There is no trail of horse bones or horse encampments into ancient India from Afghanistan during the 1500-1000 BCE period that is required for their theory of Aryan intrusion. In fact, there is no solid evidence for such a movement of peoples at all in the form of camps, skeletal remains or anything else.

Those who claim that Vedic culture must have originated outside India because of its lauding of the horse are even more lacking in horse evidence. The real problem is not `no horse at Harappa' but `no horse evidence, in fact no real evidence of any kind, to prove any Aryan migration/invasion'. It has been convincingly shown that what the Rig Veda with its seventeen-ribbed horse (RV I.162.18) describes is a native Indian breed and not any Central Asian or Eurasian horse that has eighteen ribs.

The Rig Veda mentions many Indian animals like the water buffalo (Mahisha), which is said to be the main animal sacred to Soma (RV IX.96.6), which does occur commonly on Harappan seals. The humped Brahma bull (Vrisha, Vrishabha), another common Harappan depiction, is the main animal of Indra, the foremost of the Vedic Gods. Elephants are also mentioned.

Most of the animals depicted on Harappan seals are mythical, not zoological specimens anyway. Most common is a one-horned animal that is reflected in the one-horned boar or Varaha of the Mahabharata and the boar incarnation of Lord Vishnu. Many other Harappan depictions are of animals with multiple heads or half-animal/half-human figures. This is similar to the depictions in Vedic imagery which largely consist of mythical animals of this type. For example, Harappan seals portray a three-headed bull-like animal. Such an animal is described in the Rig Veda (III.56.6).

A smokescreen


The horse issue is meant as a smokescreen to avoid facing the facts of the Sarasvati River and the many new archaeological sites in India. These show no such break in the continuity of civilisation in the region as an Aryan invasion/migration requires, including the existence of fire altars and fire worship from the early Harappan period. Vedic and Puranic literature itself records the shift of the centre of culture from the Sarasvati to the Ganga at the end of the Vedic period, referring to the drying up of the river. Scholars like Witzel would have the Vedic people coming into India after the Sarasvati was already gone and yet making the river their ancestral homeland and most sacred region!

Vedic literature is the largest preserved from the ancient world, dwarfing in size anything left by other cultures like Egypt, Greece or Babylonia. The Harappan-Sarasvati urban civilisation of India was by far the largest of its time (3100-1900 BCE) in the ancient world spreading from Punjab to Kachchh. We can no longer separate this great literature and this great civilisation, particularly given that both were based on the Sarasvati River, whose authenticity as a historical river before 1900 BCE has been confirmed by numerous geological studies. This great Vedic literature requires a great urban culture to explain it, just as the great Harappan urban culture requires a literature to explain it. Both come from the same region and cannot be separated.

Finally it is sad to note how intellectuals in India are quick to denigrate the extent and antiquity of their history, even when geological evidence like the Sarasvati River or archaeological evidence like the Harappan and Cambay sites are so clear. However one may interpret these, the truth that civilisation in India was quite ancient and profound cannot be ignored. I don't think there is any other nation on earth that would be so negative if such ancient glories were found in their lands.

HL:
You the hindi boy living in USA , if you arrive to understand the theory of Kumari Kandam you will understand why Tamil Civilisation is supposed to be the root of all Indians and Europeans civilisations...

Indians have enough brain to analyze simple facts, why are you not able ?...

If a scientist arrive to proof that the sea level in the past was 50-100 m under the actual level, maybe you (and the entire world) will understand our real past...

Without that it's only a myth for some persons...

HL you can trust what you want, it's your most legitimate right..
But the proofs are under your eyes... :wink:




[/tscii:e074a0ba58]

[S.Balaji]

[tscii:c47acdc590]Dear All,

There were recent excavations in Maamallapuram adjacent to Shore temple where some remains of a temple , Lion and other small small things have been excavated.
Infact I saw them also 6 months back.
Wish to know if there is any further development on this topic .

Besides, I remember a satellite picture capturing thin lines between Rameshwaram and Srilanka … which was supposed to be the bridge …

Was there any link established earlier between India and Srilanka.

Can somebody enlighten us on this please
[/tscii:c47acdc590]

[svmbanu]

Please read this.

Interesting article.

http://www.asiantribune.com/show_news.php?id=15377

[Anchaneya]

Friends,
Can anybody link me to total details of Aadichanallur site please.

[asitaraman]

Thanks aravindhan for posting the link. I was trying to get the link for a different thread. There seems to be very slow progress on this. Also Indian government's archaic archaeological survey is so guarded that it doesn't invite foreign scholars and teams which have better expertise in tools like carbon dating and bone fragment analysis in this venture. Adichanallur find IMHO is a National Geographic special.
A National Geographic special is more than merited, but for now I'd even settle for a few blurred black and white paparazzi photos of what they have found, particularly any inscriptions!

And yes, it would be really good to have the world's leading experts involved. But that's the way the ASI works - they found urns from around 500 BC with Tamil Brahmi inscriptions in Adichannulur a few weeks ago, and they didn't think of involving Iravatham Mahadevan who's right there in Chennai!

Like all bureaucracies, the ASI has its own process to follow with their own set of experts. In due time, they will publish their findings so other also can do their value addition. The ASI works more like stringers and reporters reporting what they see with soem editorial work. While Iravatham Mahadevan is more like a columnist or editorial/op-ed writer. Imagine if we expect every stringer/reporter to involve an editor every time they churn out a story; the process becomes unsustainable.

Also, there is a difference between archaelogical work and archaelogical interpretation. Mr. Mahadevan is in the latter category as are numerous other researchers.

Rgds, Aravind Sitaraman

[asitaraman]

From the Hindu:
CHENNAI, APRIL 2. In an important discovery, the Archaeological Survey of India (ASI), Chennai Circle, has located the habitational site of the Iron Age people who were buried in big urns at Adichanallur, 24 km from Tirunelveli town in Tamil Nadu. Although several urn burial sites such as at Amirthamangalam and Perumbair, both near Chengalpattu, have been discovered in the State, this is the first time the place where these people lived has been found.


Actually, the burial process and urns is not a new discovery. It is only its location at Adichanallur as a possible ancient inhabitation site which is. If you go to Deccan College in Pune, you will see a lot of these urns from all over South India which seemed to be one way to dispose the dead; other than burning them.

Rgds, Aravind Sitaraman

[aravindhan]

According to the Hindu, three early Tamil Brahmi "hero stone" inscriptions have recently been discovered in Theni district. It appears that the two newer inscriptions are from the 3rd century BC, with the third being older.

http://www.hindu.com/2006/04/05/stories/2006040518340600.htm

As you probably know, the "standard" modern account of the origin of Brahmi is that the script was invented under Ashoka as an adaption of the imperial Aramaic script, expressly for the purpose of engraving Ashoka's edicts. There are a number of problems with this theory, and the discovery of such early examples of the script outside Ashoka's empire casts even more doubt on it, and strongly suggests that Brahmi which Ashoka adapted for Prakrit was already in use in India.

Perhaps it's time to revisit Nacchinakkiniyar's theory that the script was entirely derived from geometric patterns? :wink:

[kannannn]

Wow Aravindhan. Thanks for the link. :clap:


Perhaps it's time to revisit Nacchinakkiniyar's theory that the script was entirely derived from geometric patterns? :wink:
If it is not too much to ask, could you throw more light on this?

[gaddeswarup]

[tscii:556129703e]Aravindhan,
I too could not find any thing on Nacchinakkiniyar by google. It will be nice if you can tell us about his theory sometime.
An article by Stephan Baums and Andrew Glass (Proposal for encoding Brahmi...) has the following passage:
"Puzzlingly, the main reason for abandoning inherent [a], namely the ability to write word-final consonants or non-homorganic consonant clusters conveniently, does not apply in the case of the Bhattiprolu inscriptions since Middle Indo-Aryan has neither of these phonetic
features. This makes it likely that the dedicated long ÅmÇtrÇ, too, was first introduced in a Tamil context, and that the resulting system was only later imitated in Bhattiprolu. No such Tamil inscription has however been discovered yet."
I refer to the last sentence. Does the discovery you mentioned provide this missing link? Thanks.
Swarup[/tscii:556129703e]

[aravindhan]

[tscii:599c9f51d7]
Aravindhan,
I too could not find any thing on Nacchinakkiniyar by google. It will be nice if you can tell us about his theory sometime.
Sorry, that was a typo. The name is actually Nacchinarkiniyar. Nacchinarkiniyar was a mediaeval commentator on the Tolkappiyam. In his commentary on the first verse of the Tolkappiyam's "Eluttatikaram", Nacchinarkiniyar suggests that the forms of the letters of the ancient Tamil script were derived entirely from geometric objects, such as the square, the circle, and the cross, which were combined with each other, and modified with other lines, to form the old script which the Tolkappiyam describes. Unfortunately, my copy of the Tol. only has Ilampuranar's commentary so I can't provide an exact translation of Nacchinarkiniyar's comments, but I think this is roughly what he said.

There are certainly some resemblances in Brahmi between characters having similar sounds (the two "l"s and the two "n"s, for example), and if one takes variants into account, the core characters are quite geometrical, so one sees why he proposed this theory. If imperial Aramaic was not the source for Brahmi, it may well be worth examining the structure of each letter in the script to see if they support his theory.


This makes it likely that the dedicated long matra, too, was first introduced in a Tamil context, and that the resulting system was only later imitated in Bhattiprolu. No such Tamil inscription has however been discovered yet."
I refer to the last sentence. Does the discovery you mentioned provide this missing link?

Ah, that's an interesting question. Unfortunately, the inscription pictured in the Hindu (which, incidentally, is the second stone rather than the first) does not have any long "a"s, so one can't really say, and the transcription of the first inscription suggests it doesn't either. However, an inscription discovered in Arittapatti in late 2003 used the same system as the Bhattiprolu inscriptions - including the distinctive dedicated long "a" matra. That inscription, too, was dated to the 3rd century BC, so it's probably fairly good evidence that the long "a" matra of the Bhattiprolu inscriptions was actually introduced in a Tamil context, as Baums and Glass speculate.

To give some background for the others, the main difference between Tamil Brahmi and Asokan Brahmi is that whereas in Asokan Brahmi a consonant sign has an inherent "a" sound, in Tamil Brahmi it does not, and a matra must be added to produce an "a". If you look at the last two symbols in the photograph in the Hindu's article, you'll see they're read as "ka" and "l". The little bar on top of the cross adds the "a" to the "k". The "l", lacking the bar, is a pure consonant. In Asokan Brahmi, these symbols would have represented "kaala" rather than "kal".

The Bhattiprolu inscriptions, which are in Prakrit, use this system, and add a second feature. In Tamil Brahmi, "kaa" was written by drawing a cross (representing "k"), adding an overbar (adding a short "a"), and then writing the symbol for the independent vowel "a" next to it. The Bhattiprolu inscriptions, in contrast, have a dedicated matra to denote the long vowel "aa", which is basically the overbar for short "a" with a little vertical hook at the end. This system was thought to have been borrowed from Tamil Brahmi, but no actual Tamil inscriptions that used this system were known, until the discovery of the Arittapatti inscriptions a couple of years ago.

[/tscii:599c9f51d7]

[gaddeswarup]

aravindhan,
Many thanks for taking the trouble to reply. I did find a reference to the theory of script based on geometric shapes (without a reference to the commentator) in http://www.cmi.ac.in/gift/Epigraphy/epig_tamilorigin.htm
I am not really in to these things but it is good to see how history changes with new discoveries. Part of my curiosity stems from the fact that I used to live in a village Gudavalli near Bhattiprolu and used to pass by the stupa site whenever I visited my maternal grandparents. My sister-in-law tells me that once she found a stone in one of the roadside sewage pits in Gudavalli. When she got it removed and cleaned it up, it has some writing about the origins of the village. Amaravati is also nearby and many slabs there were used by farmers for making lime. It is good see that there are still some relics left which throw some light on our heritage.
Swarup

[kannannn]

Thank you Aravindhan, for the explanation.

To give some background for the others, the main difference between Tamil Brahmi and Asokan Brahmi is that whereas in Asokan Brahmi a consonant sign has an inherent "a" sound, in Tamil Brahmi it does not, and a matra must be added to produce an "a". If you look at the last two symbols in the photograph in the Hindu's article, you'll see they're read as "ka" and "l". The little bar on top of the cross adds the "a" to the "k". The "l", lacking the bar, is a pure consonant. In Asokan Brahmi, these symbols would have represented "kaala" rather than "kal".
Infact, Iravatham Mahadevan talks about the tamil version of the Mauryan Brahmi script in his commentary on the Mangulam cave inscriptions.

An intriguing feature of the report in "The Hindu" is the inscription on the third stone that says the dead man belonged to 'Velur'. I am not sure about 'Kudallur' and 'Pedu' mentioned in the report, but is it the same 'Velur' we have now? Does it mean the name 'Velur' as we know now has remained unchanged over the past 2300 years?

[ramraghav]

http://www.thehindu.com/2006/05/01/stories/2006050101992000.htm

http://www.thehindu.com/2006/05/01/stories/2006050112670100.htm

P.S.: If there is a relevant thread already dedicated to such stuff, would the moderators please move it there? Thanks

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Very good, Ramraghav :!: sinthu valley language is tamil. People's migration happened from South to North.

More archeological sites of Tamil Nadu and south India have to be explored much.

Indian Ocean studies should be also started. After Russian Alexandar Gondarav 30 years ago, no single exploration misssion is started up in Indian Ocean.

Tamils Ancient history shall be the world ancient history.

f.s.gandhi

[devapriya]

Friends,

It is an excellant link given, but Irawatham Mahadevan has made clear that reading of Those Pictograms from Right to Left as a Forgery and Sanskrit Traddtion is the Cotinuity of Indus Civilisation.

The Find, was said in Garden and not in Depth along with other materials, could have been a preserving of a Family Collection,and after intial claims from Aadichanallur - no Carbon14 dated proofs came, let us wait.

Devapriya.

[bis_mala]

Sanskrit Traddtion is the Cotinuity of Indus Civilisation.

False claim!!

[kannannn]

It is an excellant link given, but Irawatham Mahadevan has made clear that reading of Those Pictograms from Right to Left as a Forgery and Sanskrit Traddtion is the Cotinuity of Indus Civilisation.
I reproduce the actual views of Iravadham Mahadevan as given in "The Hindu":


Mr. Mahadevan commented that the latest discovery was very strong evidence that the Neolithic people of Tamil Nadu and the Indus Valley people "shared the same language, which can only be Dravidian and not Indo-Aryan."

But that said, one of my friends is of the view that the number of signs is too small to arrive at any conclusion. Can anyone throw more light on this? Or perhaps, should we wait for more evidence to surface..?

[mahadevan]

Hi Moderators
Is there any way we can reduce the noise, intentional forgery of literature, just plain blabbering, verbose filth with no stuff, false claims with no evidence that is being produced by devapriya ?
I sincerely feel that the quality of the forum is going down by the articles of such clowns.

[devapriya]

Friends,

Let me thank for Mahadevan showing his self fully open.

I shall give Verbatim of Iravatham Mahadevan's Interviews Shortly.

Friends we need to understand Tamil Wrting method evolved from Sanskrit and this is confrimed by Tholkappiyam to 19th Century writing method.

Let us wait for more details.

Devapriya

[bis_mala]

riends we need to understand Tamil Wrting method evolved from Sanskrit and this is confrimed by Tholkappiyam to 19th Century writing method.


From "puujyam" came a "raajyam". This was a theory espoused by theologians.

Now it looks like you can apply it to linguistics too.

Sans had no script. From no script came the Tamil script??

Yes yes!! apply the puujyam - raajyam theory, you can get your argument through.....!!


shall give Verbatim of Iravatham Mahadevan's Interviews Shortly.

Let's have it quickly. Were you the compere?

[aravindhan]

Nacchinarkiniyar suggests that the forms of the letters of the ancient Tamil script were derived entirely from geometric objects, such as the square, the circle, and the cross, which were combined with each other, and modified with other lines, to form the old script which the Tolkappiyam describes.
...in which context, some of you might find this article interesting:

The Structures of Letters and Symbols throughout Human History Are Selected to Match Those Found in Objects in Natural Scenes

Mark A. Changizi, Qiong Zhang, Hao Ye, and Shinsuke Shimojo.

ABSTRACT: Are there empirical regularities in the shapes of letters and other human visual signs, and if so, what are the selection pressures underlying these regularities? To examine this, we determined a wide variety of topologically distinct contour configurations and examined the relative frequency of these configuration types across writing systems, Chinese writing, and nonlinguistic symbols. Our first result is that these three classes of human visual sign possess a similar signature in their configuration distribution, suggesting that there are underlying principles governing the shapes of human visual signs. Second, we provide evidence that the shapes of visual signs are selected to be easily seen at the expense of the motor system. Finally, we provide evidence to support an ecological hypothesis that visual signs have been culturally selected to match the kinds of conglomeration of contours found in natural scenes because that is what we have evolved to be good at visually processing.

available at:
http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AN/journal/issues/v167n5/41010/41010.html

[FloraiPuyal]

It is an excellant link given, but Irawatham Mahadevan has made clear that reading of Those Pictograms from Right to Left as a Forgery and Sanskrit Traddtion is the Cotinuity of Indus Civilisation.
I reproduce the actual views of Iravadham Mahadevan as given in "The Hindu":


Mr. Mahadevan commented that the latest discovery was very strong evidence that the Neolithic people of Tamil Nadu and the Indus Valley people "shared the same language, which can only be Dravidian and not Indo-Aryan."

But that said, one of my friends is of the view that the number of signs is too small to arrive at any conclusion. Can anyone throw more light on this? Or perhaps, should we wait for more evidence to surface..?

Though I dont agree with Mahadevan completely on this, it makes some sense to think of Indus script to be tamil or some archaeic form of tamil. If we analyze the morphology of both tamil and sanskrit, we can find that both these languages have followed some unique pattern in word formation - tamil adding letters to right of root word and sanskrit left of root word. Of course we find some words that have the roots in middle. These could have been borrowed or could have been the result of combining two words.
If we see the growth of these languages, complex words have been added later in an uniform manner. So I assume that the primitive form should have consisted only monosyllabic roots. I notice that these monosyllabic roots, may be by coincidence, are actually sounds related to their meanings - like the sounds made by animals or by nature.
Primitive humans should have named things he saw by the sounds related to them. Then as their need for words grew, they could have started forming complex words. The first words should have been nouns and the others should have formed much later.
Tamil is noted for having multiple words meaning the same. So a primitive word could have had a lot of meanings and the language should have been spoken with the help of nouns - like "stone food" could have actually meant "kill the food (animal) with a stone tool" or something like that. The words for stone and food could have been like - kal, un. Since the vocabulary in this state is minimal, we dont need to invent any syllables or alphabets and can be represented by X - kal, Y - un. This could have actually been the root of all languages - later developing into different languages based on the people's practices and need - some could have continued monosyllabic words like chinese(analytic), some could have evolved agglutative like tamil and sanskrit, some could have developed into fusional languages like most languages.
About the word order, it could have been in both ways, though I guess right to left to be more probable. Most people are right handed. Right handed people normally hold the chisel with their left hand and hammer with right. So, it is a lot easier for a right handed person to chisel from right to left than from left to right. This also suggests that the earliest writing could have been from right to left till formation of some complex words. Then, at some point of time, some people could have started reading these from left to right and started creating new words based on these, leading to a new language. This new language could have been prakrit, which could have been quite messy since some words would have not been meaningful. So they could have cleaned their new language, creating sanskrit.

So, it is possible that the indus script is a script indeed and could be morphemes, comprising only of nouns.

[gaddeswarup]

There is an interesting discussion of this work at:
http://www.telecomtally.com/blog/2006/05/why_does_writin.html
The following statemeant is not meant to refute any thing. Mark Changizi seems to have written book about the brain and is now writing an enormous number of papers on diverse topics to fit his theory. May be a breakthrough but I do not have any idea about him.

[Eelavar]

The vedic civilisation which was the Indus valley civilisation was a continuity of the civilisation which came from the south Deccan...

From South to North , cities and civilisations rised and were destroyed.. civilisations born and died successively.

Is it not the meaning of the "Adam's" Bridge ? (The legend say that Adam (the 'first' man) from Ilankai began his migration towards the North, the Adam's Bridge name come from this legend).

Firstly they thought that Greece was the first civilisation, after they descended in Egyptia and said civilisation began in Egyptia, after came the discovery of Babylonia and Sumeria and they pushed back the civilisation to Mesopotamia, a century ago we found Harappa and the other Indus Valley cities, the civilisation is now near the dead Saraswati river, and finally my question is where will this descent will stop.... ?
Indian scientists and historians and Graham Hancock found very anciant remain in Tamil Nadu and in the Bay of Gujarat underwater.

My thinking and opinion is that the legend of the 3 Great flood is not just a myth.....

[aravindhan]

There is an interesting discussion of this work at:
http://www.telecomtally.com/blog/2006/05/why_does_writin.html
The following statemeant is not meant to refute any thing. Mark Changizi seems to have written book about the brain and is now writing an enormous number of papers on diverse topics to fit his theory. May be a breakthrough but I do not have any idea about him.

Duane Smith's comment is interesting, I would like to see what Mark Changizi's views of cuneiform are. As far as Ugaratic is concerned, though, I seem to remember reading a relatively recent study which argued that its resemblence to cuneiform could equally be the result of adapting the Canaanite script to being written on clay tablets, and did not necessarily indicate descent from cuneiform proper.

[bis_mala]

The vedic civilisation which was the Indus valley civilisation was a continuity of the civilisation which came from the south Deccan...

Vedic - culture ? civilization? or religious culture? or just a collection of hymns/chantings/concepts, with no structured revelation of religion? How wld u describe?

[ramraghav]

http://www.hinduonnet.com/2006/05/13/stories/2006051322590300.htm

[devapriya]

Friends,

We are all trapped by falsehoods spread by Some False movements in the name of Thani Tamil and Dravidian movements.

I quote Verbatim from the Interview of Iravatham Mahadevan given in the past downloaded from www.harappah.com

//14. The Indus and Dravidian Cultural Relationship

Q: How do you conceive of the relationship between the Indus culture that existed five thousand years ago and contemporary Dravidian culture here in South India? Prof. Dani, for example, says that doesn't believe that the Indus language was Dravidian because there is just not enough cultural continuity between what is today in South India and what was then in the Indus Valley.

A: I think any direct relationship between the Indus Valley and the deep Dravidian south is unlikely because of the vast gap in space and time. Something like 2,000 years and 2,000 miles. But linguistically, if the Indus script is deciphered, we may hopefully find that the proto-Dravidian roots of the Harappan language and South Indian Dravidian languages are similar. This is a hypothesis.

If you ask what similarity is likely to emerge, the first and most important similarity is linguistic. Culturally, there is a problem. The modern speakers of Dravidian languages are the result of millennia long intermixture of races. There are no Aryans in India, nor are there any Dravidians. Those who talk about Dravidians in the political sense, I do not agree with them at all. There are no Dravidian people or Aryan people - just like both Pakistanis and Indians are racially very similar. We are both the product of a very long period of intermarriage, there have been migrations. You cannot now racially segregate any element of the Indian population. Thus there is no sense in saying that the people in Tamil Nadu are the inheritors of the Indus Valley culture. You could very well say that people living in Harappa or Mohenjo-daro today are even more likely to be the inheritors of that civilization.

In fact, I plow a somewhat lonely furrow in this. I often say that if the key to the Indus script linguistically is Dravidian, then culturally the key to the Indus script is Vedic. What I mean is that the cultural traits of the Indus Valley civilization are likely to have been absorbed by the successor Indo-Aryan civilization in Punjab and Sindh, and that the civilization in the far south would have changed out of recognition. In any case, the present South Indian civilization is already the product of both Indo-Aryan and Dravidian cultures, and the language itself is completely mixed up with both elements//

Tamil does not mean Indus Scripts and None of the Dechiphering, let it be Parbola or Iravatham Mahadevan has not solved the complete Corpus and all attempts have failed and they both accept it.

Devapriya

[bis_mala]

//We are all trapped by falsehoods spread by Some False movements in the name of Thani Tamil and Dravidian movements.//
Why you say "trapped"? how trapped? What falsehoods were spread? What is meant by "False Movement"?
As for me, I am least concerned with any political movement in India. You have attacked these so-called movements many times over, but I do not know why.

To summarize:

1.Indus language was not Dravidian because there is just not enough cultural continuity between South India and the then Ind. Valley.

2 the vast gap in space and time.

3. But linguistically, with the Indus script deciphered, possible similarity proto-Dravidian roots of the Harappan language and South Indian Dravidian languages ( a hypothesis.)

4 culturally the key to the Indus script is Vedic. ( = the cultural traits of the Indus Valley civilization are likely to have been absorbed by the successor Indo-Aryan civilization in Punjab and Sindh)


//Tamil does not mean Indus Scripts and None of the Dechiphering, let it be Parbola or Iravatham Mahadevan has not solved the complete Corpus and all attempts have failed and they both accept it.//

The script had not been deciphered by these persons quoted by you but they do not rule out future solution. Possibility of linguistic similarity is also not ruled out. They are giving extraneous reasons such as lack of cultural continuity in terms of space and time to say that it is not Dravidian. It does not prove your point - it leaves things dangling for you. At the same time I would reject the passage because the authors gave extraneous reasons.

THESE GUYS SHOULD MERELY LOOK AT THE WRITING, EXAMINE IT AND SAY WHAT IT IS AND SHOULD NOT GO INTO CULTURE, SPACE AND TIME. THE GUYS ALSO ACCEPT THAT THEIR VIEW IS MINORITY VIEW (lonely furrow).

AS SANSKRIT HAD NO WRITING SYSTEM THEN, SANSKRIT HAS NO CLAIM TO ANYTHING.

[mahadevan]

I Mahadevan is very clearly stating "But linguistically, if the Indus script is deciphered, we may hopefully find that the proto-Dravidian roots of the Harappan language and South Indian Dravidian languages are similar. "

Do you understand this statement devapriya ?

He also states "I often say that if the key to the Indus script linguistically is Dravidian, then culturally the key to the Indus script is Vedic. What I mean is that the cultural traits of the Indus Valley civilization are likely to have been absorbed by the successor Indo-Aryan civilization in Punjab and Sindh, and that the civilization in the far south would have changed out of recognition."

He here means that the vedics copied the culture of IV people, who by genetic lineage(however pure it may be) are in south now. The Originators of the IV civilizations were a bunch of smart people that evolve culturaly over time and space. While the bunch of m***** vedics are still stuck with those outdated ideas of the now modern southerners.

Now I understand the reason for devapriya's meaning less posts, I strongly advise her to get into some basic english course. So that she can understand what others are writing !

[Eelavar]

Darwin said that each species evolve in function of his environment, there is no exception. This is for me very logical.

Human evolution is too very linked to the place where he lives.

Northern anciant cities could never be same as the southern cities.
Each place have his proper culture.

But i think that nothing can born from nothing, so the evolution of the human civilisation is mainly due to a continuity of a civilisation !

The question is where exactly it born...

I think we must begin to give the definition of what is a civilisation...

[devapriya]

Friends,

Aryan coming stories are totally now dropped and I QUOTE the latest views.

//In his recent edition of Survey of Hinduism (Sunny, State University of New York Press 1994), Professor Klaus Klostermaier has noted important objections to this theory. He suggests that the weight of evidence is against it and that it should no longer be regarded as the main model of interpreting ancient India.
He states (pg.34): "Both the spatial and the temporal extent of the Indus civilization has expanded dramatically on the basis of new excavations and the dating of the Vedic age as well as the theory of an Aryan invasion of India has been shaken. We are required to completely reconsider not only certain aspects of Vedic India, but the entire relationship between Indus civilization and Vedic culture." Later he adds (pg.3: "The certainty seems to be growing that the Indus civilization was carried by the Vedic Indians, who were not invaders from Southern Russia but indigenous for an unknown period of time in the lower Central Himalayan regions."//

Please go through them

Devapriya

[bis_mala]

In his recent edition of Survey of Hinduism (Sunny, State University of New York Press 1994), Professor Klaus Klostermaier has noted important objections to this theory. He suggests that the weight of evidence is against it and that it should no longer be regarded as the main model of interpreting ancient India.
He states (pg.34): "Both the spatial and the temporal extent of the Indus civilization has expanded dramatically on the basis of new excavations and the dating of the Vedic age as well as the theory of an Aryan invasion of India has been shaken. We are required to completely reconsider not only certain aspects of Vedic India, but the entire relationship between Indus civilization and Vedic culture." Later he adds (pg.3: "The certainty seems to be growing that the Indus civilization was carried by the Vedic Indians, who were not invaders from Southern Russia but indigenous for an unknown period of time in the lower Central Himalayan regions."

Yes, so has he proposed. All depends on how the others respond...!!

[devapriya]

Dear Friends,

Most of the Researchers now feel Indus Civilisation is Purely Indian, and with Vedic Connections.

Dechiphering of Parbola depended on Vedas.

Devapriya

[bis_mala]

Cannot bluff around!

[mahadevan]

Dear Friends,

Most of the Researchers now feel Indus Civilisation is Purely Indian and totally dravidian/tamil, and with no Vedic Connections.

Dechiphering of Parbola depended on IV civilizations correlation with Tamil lit.

Devathidevapriya

[devapriya]

Freinds,

I reuest Mahadevan ugly foolish posts and Mala's say something means nothing, Please read all the articles available on Irawatham Mahadevan and then Post.

Parbola used many Vedic links to Dechipher.

Devapriya

[bis_mala]

Freinds,

I reuest Mahadevan ugly foolish posts and Mala's say something means nothing, Please read all the articles available on Irawatham Mahadevan and then Post.

Parbola used many Vedic links to Dechipher.

Devapriya

Your bluffology is very "good."


I reuest Mahadevan ugly foolish posts

U are requesting more of them! His posts must b good then.


Mala's say something means nothing
How can that be? Awake and u'll see meaning in it!

[sundararaj]

Very interesting article and thanks for all the contributors.

[podalangai]

Nanparkale,

Most people here are probably aware of the work of Parpola and others suggesting that the language of the Indus script was a Dravidian language. Here is a paper by Iravatham Mahadevan which points out an extraordinary resemblance between one of the more common Indus script inscriptions and an inscription on a pot found at Sulur, near Kovai.

http://tinyurl.com/23fs28 (text)
http://tinyurl.com/yo3bor (figures)

It certainly is a striking resemblance. Taken together with the ever-older Tamil Brahmi inscriptions being discovered at Adichanallur, it says volumes about the antiquity of our language and civilisation. :)

[crazy]

Thanks, for sharing with us anna :)

[kannannn]

Thanks a lot for the links Podalai :D. Though Mahadevan sidesteps the language issue (which I think is deliberate), I think such resemblences in sequences reinforce an important point: that the scripts are just that - scripts. Wonder what Farmer and Co. have to say to this!!

[podalangai]

This is a few weeks old, but I've not seen it discussed here, so...

A Tamil Brahmi inscription dating from the first century BC has been discovered in Egypt. Iravatham Mahadevan has provided a tentative reading:

http://www.hindu.com/2007/11/21/stories/2007112158412400.htm

Tamil Brahmi inscriptions have been found before on the Egyptian Red Sea coast at Quseir-al-Qadim / Berenike, but this one is at least a century or so older.

[joe]

Podalangai,
what is the meaning of 'Brahmi'? Is it a name of a type of Tamil script ? Is it related to Brahmins?

[P_R]

Podalangai,
what is the meaning of 'Brahmi'? Is it a name of a type of Tamil script ? Is it related to Brahmins? Joe, I don't think brahmi is linked with brahmins. Brahmi is a script used across India around the 3rd century BC. Asokan edicts were in Prakrit written in this Brahmi script. A recent discovery in Adichanallur in Tirunelveli found some Brahmi inscribed pottey which dates further back than Asoka.
The Tamil Brahmi script is a bit different from the Asokan Brahmi and is considered the most ancient Tamil script.

Vattezhuthu which evolved out of Brahmi was used to write Tamil, which was - as the name suggests- more rounded. This is because man had started moving out of rock-cut writing to palm leaves, which required smoother writing techniques.This slowly evolved to our current script.

In another stream, Brahmi evolved to the Grantham script which was used for writing Sanskrit in Tamil areas. The convention was to write Tamil portions in Vattezethu and Sanskrit portions in Grantham !

Was all that right podalangai ?

[P_R]

This is a few weeks old, but I've not seen it discussed here, so...

A Tamil Brahmi inscription dating from the first century BC has been discovered in Egypt. Iravatham Mahadevan has provided a tentative reading:

http://www.hindu.com/2007/11/21/stories/2007112158412400.htm

Tamil Brahmi inscriptions have been found before on the Egyptian Red Sea coast at Quseir-al-Qadim / Berenike, but this one is at least a century or so older.
Interesting news ! A few questions:
Is the distinction between Asokan Brahmi and Tamil Brahmi something everyone agrees on ? Paanai Uri seems to be quite settling because the words exist till date. But what if the words have dropped out. Would it still be possible to tell apart Asokan and Tamil Brahmi just by the letters alone ? Is Adichanallur still the oldest Tamil Brahmi ever ? 6th century BC ?

[thilak4life]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_script

http://acharya.iitm.ac.in/cgi-bin/script_disp.pl?brahmi

[Billgates]

Podalangai,
what is the meaning of 'Brahmi'? Is it a name of a type of Tamil script ? Is it related to Brahmins?

Dont worry about the Caste . Look at what it delivers to you . So, will you denounce tamil if the Brahmi is by Brahmin ?

[podalangai]

Is the distinction between Asokan Brahmi and Tamil Brahmi something everyone agrees on ? Paanai Uri seems to be quite settling because the words exist till date. But what if the words have dropped out. Would it still be possible to tell apart Asokan and Tamil Brahmi just by the letters alone?
Yes. For a (very) brief summary of some of the differences, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_script#History

In this case, the inscription uses the vallinam "R" (ற் in the modern Tamil script), which makes it pretty clear that the inscription is in Tamil, as Asokan Brahmi didn't have the character. Even otherwise, nearly all Tamil Brahmi inscriptions distinguish pure consonants (meyezhuthu with puLLi) from consonants with an inherent vowel (meyezhuththu + "a"), which standard Brahmi usually doesn't do. This makes it quite easy to distinguish Tamil Brahmi from standard Brahmi.

Finally, because of the Sangam literature, we have an excellent idea of what Tamil was like in the 1st century BC. As a result, we are in a position to recognise even those words that have dropped out of everyday use in modern Tamil, because they were used in Sangam Tamil.

[podalangai]

Podalangai,
what is the meaning of 'Brahmi'? Is it a name of a type of Tamil script ? Is it related to Brahmins?

Vanakkam Joe :)

"Brahmi" is the name of a script that was used by Asoka and later rulers to write inscriptions in Prakrit. From the 1st or 2nd century AD, it was also used to write Sanskrit. The script is called "Brahmi" in Sanskrit texts - the name has nothing to do with "Brahmins", but refers to a north Indian legend that the script was given by Brahma ("Brahmi" in Sanskrit means "of Brahma" or "coming from Brahma").

A version of the Brahmi script was used in Tamil Nadu to write Tamil. This differs in many ways from the northern Brahmi, and even from the Brahmi used to write Sanskrit and Prakrit in Karnataka and Andhra Pradesh, so it is usually called "Tamil Brahmi" to distinguish it from standard Brahmi.

Apart from the difference in the letters, the way they are used is also different. In the north, most inscriptions in Brahmi are long inscriptions recording charters or laws promulgated by kings. In Tamil Nadu, however, most inscriptions are carvings on pottery (to identify the owner of the pot or the use to which it was put), epitaphs on "nadukkal", and short carvings on stones made by individuals. Iravatham Mahadevan suggests that this means that literacy was a lot more widespread in the Tamil country than elsewhere in India.

Finally, the traditional account of the origin of Brahmi is that it was adapted from a Semitic script in north India during Asoka's time, and then moved to the South. However, tentative datings of recent excavations suggest that the oldest Brahmi inscriptions found in Tamil Nadu and Sri Lanka (names inscribed on pots) are from a time before Asoka, possibly dating to the fourth or fifth century BC. This suggests that the traditional theory may be wrong. Dr. Gift Siromoney had argued almost twenty years ago, before the discovery of this evidence, that the script was first used for Tamil - you can read some of his papers here http://www.cmi.ac.in/gift/default.htm. But we still don't know for sure.

[P_R]

Thank You podalangai. As always :notworthy:

Dr. Gift Siromoney had argued almost twenty years ago, before the discovery of this evidence, that the script was first used for Tamil - you can read some of his papers here http://www.cmi.ac.in/gift/default.htm. But we still don't know for sure. What a fantastic character !! He is just all over the place. Thank you once again podalangai !

>digr.>

Prof. Siromoney also formed a research group to work on Character Recognition, especially the characters of Tamil, Malayalam and Devanagari. The methods he developed with the assistance of this group will be useful for designing a new generation of computers.

Prof.Siromoney's research team was the first to make large-scale iconometric measurements of Indian sculptures.

He opened up new avenues of research in the field of Harappan script by applying mathematical techniques such as Cluster analysis and Dynamic Programming to decipher the Indus seals. Similarly, techniques of Image Processing and Character Recognition were employed to read inscriptions.

Dr. Siromoney has made significant contributions to the field of Tribal Studies. The various facets of the culture of Narikkkuravas (Vagrivala, a nomadic gypsy tribe) -- medicine, music, language, snares etc., --drew his scholarly attention. With a view to providing literacy to the people of the tribe, he produced the first ever books in Vagriboli (the language of Vagrivala) using the Tamil script. (Microfiches of the mimeographed books have reached the Library of Congress in Washington D.C(SAI 81/00151 and 82/60278-60280).

Environmental Studies also caught the scholarly imagination of Prof.Siromoney. He has prepared check-lists of birds and butterflies of Tambaram area, and conducted experiments on the college farm in the areas of poultry, piggery and agriculture, adopting statistical methods. His articles in Newsletter for Birdwatchers make an interesting read.

With Prof.C.T.Kurien (a renowned economist who taught in Madras Christian College) he has collaborated on a study of saving pattern. The public opinion surveys he conducted in Tamil Nadu were the first of their kind and so were his studies on public health and literacy. The results of these statewide surveys were published in national and local newspapers so that the findings could be accessible to the common man << :shock:

[joe]

Thanks Prabhu Ram and Podalangai :D

[joe]

Podalangai & PR,
I have been to Angor Wat temples ,Cambodia (Probably the oldest(1000 years) and biggest hindu temples in the word) .On the walls I found some scripts ,I cannot read fully ,but few characters looked similar to present Tamil characters we are using now (eg ல) .

[podalangai]

Podalangai & PR,
I have been to Angor Wat temples ,Cambodia (Probably the oldest(1000 years) and biggest hindu temples in the word) .On the walls I found some scripts ,I cannot read fully ,but few characters looked similar to present Tamil characters we are using now (eg ல) .

Yes, that is because they are written in what is called the "Pallava Script", which was derived from vattezhutthu during the Pallava period. It is similar to the grantha ezhutthu that was used in Tamil Nadu to write Sanskrit. Most of the modern scripts of South-east Asia are derived from the Pallava script.

[Roshan]

Thanks Podalangai for this interesting piece of info and the related links. Quite useful indeed :)

[P_R]

A recent news article (http://www.hindu.com/2008/01/13/stories/2008011355961800.htm)about an Indus Valley that depicts jallikkattu.

[thilak4life]

A recent news article (http://www.hindu.com/2008/01/13/stories/2008011355961800.htm)about an Indus Valley that depicts jallikkattu.

Virumandi's craft traced to an artifact of Saketh. LOL

Does bull-baiting provide any sort of trance effect? Or, totally opposite? Is the vigorous imagery out of a trance effect, enchanced by a psychologically induced state of brutal masochism involved? Taming the untamed animal is known to provide a psychedelical effect (and a ritual effect) than merely providing a courage contest or a masculine play. However, the catch is, the hallucinatory effect of anything to do with animals is from sensory deprivation in caves for the prehistoric man. They were aroused, and driven by this hallucinations to inscribe in the caves (20000-30000 years before). However, here's a "seal" made out of stone, and just about 4000 years old. Perhaps a deliberate case of fixating the practice to art forms..

[MazhaiKuruvi]

angkor inscriptions http://bp0.blogger.com/_M-stQS7gGXY/RlRIFBTGbiI/AAAAAAAAAaM/s3p75Z4ldmM/s1600-h/khmer+letter.jpg

idhu thamizh madhiriye theriyudhe.

Khmer script
http://www.ancientscripts.com/khmer.html

[joe]

angkor inscriptions http://bp0.blogger.com/_M-stQS7gGXY/RlRIFBTGbiI/AAAAAAAAAaM/s3p75Z4ldmM/s1600-h/khmer+letter.jpg

idhu thamizh madhiriye theriyudhe.


This is exactly what I have seen when I went to Angor Wat :D

[sivaram ram]

Guys it is alrdy proven that the Bramhi script eveolve from the Indus script.
The indus script is nothing else but the old Tamil Script, dating more than 10 000bc

[P_R]

Guys it is alrdy proven that the Bramhi script eveolve from the Indus script.
The indus script is nothing else but the old Tamil Script, dating more than 10 000bc Hmm I thought the jury is still out on that. I may be wrong but isn't the Indus Script still undeciphered ?
Is there a script that dates back to 10,000 BC !?!?!

[P_R]

[tscii:5cd54e0bc5]From Indus Valley to coastal Tamil Nadu

T.S. Subramanian
Strong resemblances between graffiti symbols in Tamil Nadu and the Indus script

CHENNAI: In recent excavations in Nagapattinam district in Tamil Nadu, megalithic pottery with graffiti symbols that have a strong resemblance to a sign in the Indus script have been found. Indus script expert Iravatham Mahadevan says that what is striking about the arrow-mark graffiti on the megalithic pottery found at Sembiyankandiyur and Melaperumpallam villages is that they are always incised twice and together, just as they are in the Indus script.

The Hindu published on April 27 a report (“Megalithic period pottery found”) on megalithic pottery and urns found at Sembiyankandiyur, along with [in most of the editions] a photograph of three pots with arrow-like graffiti symbols on each pot.

In all the three pots, the arrow-like symbol appeared two times each and next to each other.

The Tamil Nadu Archaeology Department found these pots during excavations at Sembiyankandiyur between February and April 2008 after a school teacher, V. Shanmuganathan, unearthed a polished neolithic axe from the garden of his house at Sembiyankandiyur in 2006. The axe had engravings that resembled the Indus script.

In May 2007, the Department found several pots at Melaperumpallam near Poompuhar during a trial excavation. Some of these had the same arrow-like symbol occurring twice on them, and always adjacent to each other.

According to Mr. Mahadevan, seals unearthed at Mohenjodaro (now in Pakistan) in the 1920s have similar arrow-like signs that also occur twice and always together. There are several seals with the Indus script and engravings of a bull or a unicorn where the arrow-like sign always occurs in pairs.

While the megalithic/Iron Age pottery in Tamil Nadu is datable between the third century B.C. and third century A.D., the Indus script belongs to the period 2600 B.C. to 1900 B.C. of the mature Harappan period.

“In spite of the enormous gap in time and space between the Indus civilisation sites and [the] Tamil Nadu [sites], it appears that the megalithic graffiti of Tamil Nadu have continued the tradition of the Indus script,” Mr. Mahadevan said.

“Despite a slight difference in the graphic of the arrow-like symbol found on the megalithic pottery of Tamil Nadu and the sign in the Indus script, the fact is that they always occur in double and together. So this requires further study and investigation.”

In 1960, B.B. Lal, former Director General of the Archaeological Survey of India (ASI), wrote a paper in the publication Ancient India brought out by the ASI, with a photographic catalogue of the megalithic and chalcolithic pottery with graffiti marks and comparing them with the signs of the Indus script. “Since then, many more examples of pottery with graffiti marks that have a strong resemblance to the Indus signs have been found at Sanur near Tindivanam in Tamil Nadu and Musiri (Pattanam) in Kerala,” Mr. Mahadevan said.

Particularly significant was a large megalithic terracotta plate found at Sulur near Coimbatore, with symbols closely resembling an inscription on a tablet found at Harappa, which is also in Pakistan now. Hence, “there is distinct possibility that the megalithic symbols and the corresponding signs of the Indus script have the same significance and meaning,” he said. (The terracotta plate from Sulur is on display at the British Museum in London).

In his paper, “A megalithic pottery inscription and a Harappa tablet: a case of extraordinary resemblance,” published in the Journal of Tamil Studies, Volume No.71, June 2007, Mr. Mahadevan said: “I suggest that close resemblances are possible only if the south Indian megalithic script is related to the Indus script. Further, the common sequence found on the Sulur dish and the Harappa tablet may indicate that the languages of the two inscriptions are related to each other.”

http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/thscrip/print.pl?file=2008050353942200.htm&date=2008/05/03/&prd=th&[/tscii:5cd54e0bc5]

PS: Podalangai can you please consider changing the title of this thread to be more generic ? This thread can be a point of discussion/sharing of news about archaeological finds.

[P_R]

[tscii:0107e167c2]The Tale of a broken pot (http://www.hindu.com/2008/05/13/stories/2008051355252000.htm)
Iravatham Mahadevan and S. Rajagopal


Today I am a broken pot stored away in a museum. But, about eighteen hundred years ago, I was a shining new kalayam. My proud owner was a toddy-tapper named Naakan. He lived in a small hamlet at the edge of the forest (near present-day Andipatti in Theni district of Tamil Nadu).

Naakan was too poor to own land; but he earned his living by taking on lease some coconut and palmyra trees, tapping and selling the toddy.

There were several toddy-tappers in the hamlet. They would climb the trees early in the morning, make deep cuts on the crown of the trees with their sharp bill-hooks, and tie their pots beneath to collect the sap (juice) that oozed from the cuttings.

The pots, when full, would be taken down and stored for a few days to allow fermenting of the sap into toddy, for which there was a good market.

Etched belongings


Poor he might have been, but Naakan was literate. In order to identify his kalayam and its contents, he scratched this message on it with his sharp iron tool:

naakan uRal ‘Naakan’s (pot with) toddy-sap’

The Tamil word ooRal (from ooRu ‘to ooze’) meaning ‘freshly tapped toddy’ is spelt here with the short vowel u probably due to oversight or reflecting the colloquial usage.

Determining age


Archaeologists who dug me out of the earth near Andipatti a couple of years ago, have determined from examining the fabric of my body, that I was made in about the third century A.D. Epigraphists (who study old inscriptions) have identified the writing on my shoulder as in Old Tamil written in the Tamil-Brahmi script of the same period.

And that is not all. The two-word inscription carries an important message, namely, how widespread literacy must have been in the ancient Tamil country, if a poor toddy-tapper, living in a remote hamlet far away from urban and commercial centres, could write down his name and what he was doing with the pottery he owned.

That is the reason why I am preserved in the museum and not discarded like other broken pottery!

Iravatham Mahadevan is a well-known researcher of the Indus and Brahmi scripts. Dr. S. Rajagopal is a senior archaeologist specialising in Old Tamil inscriptions, who retired from the Tamil Nadu State Department of Archaeology. [/tscii:0107e167c2]

[podalangai]

Older threads on this topic:
http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?t=2853
http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?t=6470
http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?t=6806
http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?t=10211

(Might the moderators be able to merge them into a single thread?)

[Badri]

This thread has been created by merging 5 other threads discussing the Tamizh script and its evolution, historical evidence etc.

Kindly make use of this thread for all discussions on the subject.

[P_R]

[tscii:4f3fe91268]SIGNIFICANT FIND: Jaina beds found in a cavern near Vadagal in Gingee taluk of Villupuram district. (http://www.hindu.com/2008/06/20/stories/2008062062272600.htm)


CHENNAI: Over the last three months, two rock art sites, two caverns with Jaina beds, and dolmens have been discovered within a radius of 25 km on the hillocks behind the Gingee fort in Tamil Nadu’s Villupuram district.

Members of the team that found the sites, said the discovery of Jaina beds confirmed the earlier view that present-day Villupuram district was once a prominent centre of Jainism. The presence of the rock art sites and dolmens showed that the area had been under continuous human occupation for 3,000 years, they added.

On June 1, K.T. Gandhirajan, an explorer who specialises in art history, T. Ramesh, a researcher in archaeology, and others found a big cavern with Jaina beds and rock art on a hillock called Pancha Pandavar Kal, near Vadagal village in Gingee taluk.

The hillock, located 15 km behind the Gingee fort, forms part of a chain of hills in the area. The team found a series of Jaina beds on the floor of the cavern and pre-historic paintings on the boulder surface opposite the beds.

“The beds are of primitive nature. They are not evolved. They are about 2,000 years old,” said Mr. Gandhirajan.

Raised “pillows” had been hewn out of the rock-floor at one end of the beds. Channels were cut to drain out rainwater from the beds or the floor was scooped out to collect rainwater.

The rock art consists of a painting of a deer done in white kaolin with outlines in red ochre.

“This is really rare,” Mr. Gandhirajan said. While this figure of a deer is about 3 feet by 3 feet in size, there are tiny drawings of deer and lizard (udu mbu in Tamil) on the adjacent rock surface, as if to contra-distinguish their size. He estimated that the paintings might belong to circa 1000 B.C.

“These paintings were done by pre-historic men — by hunter-gatherers who used to live in this cavern. Much later, the Jain monks occupied them,” Mr. Gandhirajan said.

Earlier finds


Three months earlier, the team found about a dozen port-holed dolmens on a hill near Devadanampettai, on the way to Tirukovilur, about 15 km from the Gingee fort. While most of the dolmens were found disturbed, a few were intact.

About 2 km away, the team discovered a small rock art site, with drawings in white kaolin of marching men or men with raised hands.

About 25 days ago, Mr. Ramesh and Mr. Gandhirajan found 11 Jaina beds on a hill near Kanchiyur village, 28 km from Gingee.

According to T. Arun Raj, Deputy Superintending Archaeologist, Archaeological Survey of India, Chennai Circle, Jaina beds had been discovered recently at Thirunarungkondai near Ulundurpet, Paraiyanpattu and Melkudalur. There are remains of the structural Jaina temples at Tirunarungkondai, Melsithamur and Thondur near Tindivanam and Melmalayanur near Tiruvannamalai. All these places are in Villupuram district.

On the hill at Sirukadambur, there is a bas-relief of 24 Jaina tirthankaras. “Adjacent to this, we have an inscription about a Jaina monk who went on a fast-unto-death. This inscription belongs to the transitional period from Tamil-Brahmi to Vattezuthu,” he said.

There are rock art sites in the district at Sethavarai and Kizhvalavu.

“In addition to these relics of Jainism, we have now discovered these Jaina beds in two places. All this show that the present-day Villupuram district was a prominent centre of Jainism,” Mr. Arun Raj said.

[/tscii:4f3fe91268]

[P_R]

[tscii:fe9bc81a67]Inscriptions found near ThiruveLLarai temple (http://www.hindu.com/2008/08/24/stories/2008082454970500.htm)

Tamil inscriptions found near Tiruvellarai temple



T.S. Subramanian

CHENNAI: Three inscriptions of different periods, including one belonging to a merchant guild, have been discovered close to an ancient Vishnu temple at Tiruvellarai near Tiruchi.

The inscription in Tamil, datable to the 10th-11th century A.D., has several symbols, associated with such trade guilds, engraved on it. A team, comprising D. Dayalan, Superintending Archaeologist, Temple Survey Project, southern region, Archaeological Survey of India (ASI), and A. Anil Kumar, Assistant Archaeologist, made the discovery. The inscription about the merchant guild is engraved on a granite slab, found half-buried in a field south-west of the Pundarikatchar temple. It has 21 lines in Tamil, with a few Sanskrit words.

Dr. Dayalan said this inscription referred to an “ambalam” (a temple or mantapa) of Chettiyars of Tiruvellarai and mentioned a trade guild called “ainuttruvar,” which meant 500 members. It was common to make transactions or build edifices in the name of “ainuttruvar,” and the Chettiyars, a trading community, could have formed the “ainuttruvar.”

This inscription also has the engraving of two bags, called “pasumpai” and considered sacred by merchant communities. The other symbols are a sword, billhook, bow and arrow, coiled whip, elephant goad and lance. The inscription refers to a person called “tirukayyilattu ainutruvan” as the protector of charity and has a verse that says that “the feet of the persons who patronise or protect charity shall be on my head.”

Some of the merchant guilds referred to in the inscriptions in south India are “ainnutruvar,” “Manigramam,” “Nanadesi,” “Padinen-bhumi,” “Anjuvannam” and “Ayyavole.”

The “ainnutruvar” overarched all the substantial traders’ guilds in a particular locality, and also covered a wider area and various communities, including artisans, said Dr. Dayalan. An inscription of about 1,000 A.D., found at Bedkihal in Belgaum district, Karnataka, referred to “Aynurbaru” (500 great men). Merchant guild inscriptions with symbols such as conch, axe and lamp have been found at Melnangvaram in Karur district; Idaimalaipattipudur, Kaliampatti, Nagainallur and Singalatakanallur, all in Tiruchi district; and Pozhichalur in Kanchipuram district. These guilds had warriors to protect them.

The ASI team found several label inscriptions in Pallava grantha, belonging to the 7th-8th century A.D., on a hillock on the rear of the temple. These labels are the names of devotees such as (ka) pra mi na sa and (aa) vi ri ta.

On the same hillock, Dr. Dayalan, Mr. Anil Kumar and others discovered a big inscription, running to several metres in size. It is in Tamil and belongs to the Vijayanagara period. Preliminary study indicates that it refers to a “bhattar” (temple Brahmin) of a village called Manavala Chaturvedi Mangalam and an officer named Mummudi Chola Thevar.

V. Vedachalam, retired Senior Epigraphist, Tamil Nadu Department of Archaeology, who has researched on Tiruvellarai and its temple, called these discoveries “important additions to Tiruvellarai’s history.”

Dr. Vedachalam, who has authored a book titled ‘Tiruvellarai,’ which was published by the Department in 1977, said that while Tiruvellarai was 1,500 years old, the Pundarikatchar temple had its origin during the reign of the Pallava king, Nandivaram II, in the 7th-8th century A.D. The temple saw continuous construction by the Chola, the later Pandya, the Hoysala and the Vijayanagara kings.
[/tscii:fe9bc81a67]

[P_R]

[tscii:7dccf58532]Megalithic Burial Site found near Chennai

2000-yr-old found in Chennai backyard (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Chennai/2000-yr-old_found_in_Chennai_backyard/articleshow/3491763.cms)
17 Sep 2008, 0319 hrs IST, Jaya Menon,TNN

CHENNAI: A sprawling 35-acre stretch, flanked by a lake and a little hillock, in Siruthavur, 50 km from Chennai, is soaked in history. The Archaeological Survey of India has discovered a megalithic burial site here that dates back to over 2,000 years ago.

The site has more than 300 burial spots that could provide a rare peek into the period. Since the ASI began its excavation in July, the area has thrown up a treasure trove of sarcophaguses, or stone coffins, carnelian beads, iron implements and pieces of bones, all traces of an ancient civilisation that once thrived in the region.

“After more than four decades, the ASI has uncovered a megalithic burial site here. North Tamil Nadu, particularly Kancheepuram, Chengalpattu, Thirukazhukundram and Sriperumbudur, are known to have such sites. About 80% of the 162 ASI sites in the state are megalithic. But protecting the sites has proved a big challenge,” said Sathyabhama Badhreenath, ASI superintending archaeologist, Chennai region, while on a tour of the site.

While Siruthavur was put under ASI cover as a national protected site way back in the 1940s, there has been consistent erosion of the site due to the activities of squatters, who have been using the stone circles as fire stoves, and illegal sand miners. “We are trying to create awareness among the locals. But there should be a more concerted effort on the part of authorities to preserve the site,” pointed out Sathyabhama. Meanwhile, marauding trucks have been scooping out pieces of history only to be mixed in lime and mortar or garden soil in homes.

The ASI team which finally got to work in Siruthavur in Kancheepuram district has so far exposed eight burial pits.
[/tscii:7dccf58532]

[wrap07]

http://www.hindu.com/2008/09/25/stories/2008092561370900.htm

Two Chola period inscriptions found

They record the gift of land to the principal deity of Alavanthisvaram

TIRUCHI: Two 12th century Chola inscriptions have been found at Alavanthisvaram, an ancient temple at Pazhaiya Jayamkondam, 10 km from Mahadhanapuram, off the Tiruchi-Karur Highway.

They were discovered recently by researchers of the Dr.M.Rajamanikkar Centre for Historical Research during a field study. M. Nalini, Reader in History, Seethalakshmi Ramaswami College, led the team.

According to R. Kalaikkovan, Director, Dr. M. Rajamanikkanar Centre for Historical Research, the two fragmentary later Chola period inscriptions, engraved on the basement of the maha mandapa of the temple, records the gift of a piece of land (referred to as Thirunamathu Kaani) to the principal deity of the temple. The produce from the land was to be used for the regular worship at the temple and for giving the deity the sacred bath.

Two other 19th century inscriptions were also found at the temple. One of them, engraved on the southern wall of the Chandesvara shrine in the northern part of the temple, identifies the builder of the shrine as Madhyappa Gnaniyar. The other, engraved on the front pillars of a small mandapa in front of the southern niche of the main vimana that houses the deity Dakshinamurthy, notes that the mandapa was built with the help of two philanthropists, Karuthanagaperumal and Iruvan. Dr. Kalaikkovan said some rare sculptures were also found. A slab panel of the ‘saptamathrika’ appears a very early one. Though mutilated, the sharp features of all the seven deities were well preserved.

The temple tank appears unique in having exquisitely carved Nandhi figures at the four entrances. Some of the Nandhis have additional carvings in their lower portions. One of them depicts Lord Krishna taking away the clothes of maidens and hiding himself in a ‘kuruntha’ tree. Another carving below the Nandhi on the northern side depicts a man seated and enjoying a smoke through a long pipe. Such depictions as extensions of the Nandi sculptures are very rare.

[wrap07]

http://www.hindu.com/2008/11/13/stories/2008111360961200.htm

Pandya period Nandi, ‘lingam’ found

They were unearthed at Thalavaipatti near Thuvarankurichi

TIRUCHI: A Pandya-period Nandhi sculpture, dating back to the 13th century AD, and a huge ‘lingam’ have been found in coconut groves at Thalavaipatti, a remote village near Thuvarankurichi, off the Tiruchi-Madurai National Highway.

The sculptures were unearthed by research scholars of Dr.M.Rajamanikkanar Centre for Historical Research, Tiruchi, during a field study, led by M. Nalini, Reader in History, Seethalakshmi Ramaswami College. The sculptures could be the remnants of a Siva temple that had been in existence in the region during the later Pandya period, the scholars said.

The study was conducted after K. Arumugam and R.M. Sethuraman, members of the renovation committee of the Meenakshi Sundareswarar temple at Thuvarankurichi found a stone slab with inscriptions on the temple land at Thalavaipatti and alerted the centre.

When the research team visited the village, they were informed about some buried sculptures in the surrounding groves. A hunt led to the unearthing of the Nandhi in a nearby private grove. The sculpture was dug out with the help of the locals.

The Nandhi sports a flat belt studded with pearls around its neck, with a bell attached to its bottom. The Nandhi, in its seated posture, closely resembles the one found at the Meenakshi Sundrareswarar temple at Thuvarankurichi, said R. Kalaikkovan, Director, Dr.Rajamanikkanar Centre for Historical Research.

The sculpture depicts a thick-folded cloth over the hump, which covers the sides of the Nandhi’s body. One of the two horns is found broken, and the other is smaller in size. The research team’s forays also led to the discovery of the ‘lingam,’ found deeply buried in an adjoining grove. The ‘lingam’ is yet to be dug out fully.

The nine-line inscription on the slab found by the temple committee members refers to the place as Puchayapuram and has the engravings of a bow, an umbrella and a ‘kamandalam,’ (sacred pot) on all the four sides. The inscription refers to a platoon stationed at Mannukurichi, which came under Marunkur Nadu. It says Miraimidan Manikkan alias Muzhuthumalla Thevan and a pond were given protection (‘asrayam’) by Muzhuthumallar and Malai Thakartha Kandar.

The people of Thalavaipatti want to construct a shrine near the groves to install the Nandhi and the ‘lingam.’ A survey of the surrounding villages may yield further historical information, Dr. Kalaikkovan said.

[wrap07]

http://www.hindu.com/2008/11/20/stories/2008112057012200.htm

Temple inscriptions point to early Chola inroads into Pallava region

T.S. Subramanian

Lithic records at 1,200-year-old temple tell the story of dynastic transition

CHENNAI: Six important inscriptions have come to light in a 1,200-year-old Siva temple in Tamil Nadu. One each belongs to Aditya Chola I and Vijayanagara king Krishnadevaraya and three belong to Rajendra Chola I. The sixth one is from the late Vijayanagara period. The Kailasanatha temple is situated at Uttaramerur in Kanchipuram district.

Ongoing restoration work on this dilapidated temple has yielded a relief with the sculptures of Tamil Saivite saints Sundarar, Tirugnana Sambandar and Appar.

T. Satyamurthy, former Superintending Archaeologist, Archaeological Survey of India, and a founder of the REACH Foundation, said the inscriptions in Tamil were revealed when the plinth of the front mantapa, which had collapsed, was being removed. The Kailasanatha temple built by the Pallava king Dantivarman is in ruins and REACH Foundation is restoring and conserving it with permission from the Hindu Religious and Charitable Endowments Department of Tamil Nadu.

Dr. Satyamurthy termed the discovery of Aditya Chola I’s inscription in the Pallava region as “rare” although similar inscriptions have been found at Tirukazhugukunram, Takkolam and a few other places. The discovery of the inscriptions belonging to both Aditya Chola I and Rajendra Chola I in the temple built by an earlier Pallava king showed that the Chola kings had later established total supremacy in the heart of the Pallava kingdom.

The inscription of Aditya Chola I (871-907 A.D.) talks about the donation of nine “kalanju” (weight or coin) of gold by a woman called Adithan to keep a lamp perpetually alight in the Brahmesvara Mahadeva temple at Uttaramerur. The village “thotta variam” (garden committee) gave an undertaking that it would use the interest accruing from the gold to provide one measure of oil daily to light the lamp “as long as the sun and the moon shine.”

D. Dayalan, Superintending Archaeologist, ASI, Temple Survey Project (southern region), termed the Aditya Chola I inscription as “interesting,” for it “clearly indicated” that it was meant to establish the authority of the Cholas in the Pallava territory that has been referred to as “Thondaimandalam.”

It was Aditya Chola I who vanquished Pallava ruler Aparajithavarman and expanded his sovereignty to Pallava territory. The Tiruvalangadu plates, the Tillaisthanam records and inscriptions at Kanyakumari attest to the fact that Aditya Chola I overthrew Aparajithavarman and extended his sway to “Thondaimandalam,” said Dr. Dayalan. After annexing the region, he made donations to many temples built by the Pallavas.

The “Brahmesvara Mahadevar” temple mentioned in the inscription must be this Kailasanatha temple, argued Dr. Dayalan.

An inscription in the Vaikuntha Perumal temple at Uttramerur referred to “Brahmesvaragriha,” situated northeast of Uttaramerur. Since this Kailasanatha temple is situated to the northeast of Uttramerur, it must be the Brahmesvara Mahadevar temple.

The three inscriptions of Rajendra Chola I (1014-1043 A.D.) referred to donations made to the temple. All the three refer to Uttaramerur as “Rajendra Chola Chaturvedimangalam” – he renamed Uttaramerur after himself.

Krishnadevaraya’s inscription (early 16th century) mentioned the existence of an ‘Isanasivacharya Mutt.” This inscription was important, said S. Rajavel, Senior Epigraphist, ASI, because this mutt was established by Rajendra Chola I himself to honour his teacher called Isana Sivacharya, a Saiva scholar. The tradition seemed to have continued during the Vijayanagara period.

The restoration work revealed a measuring scale, with sub-divisions, engraved on the temple wall and named after a chieftain, “Virupparayan.”

The restoration work had reached a critical stage, according to Dr. Satyamurthy. The architectural members of the front mantapa of the Vijayanagara period, which had collapsed, had been collected; it would be re-built. While the sanctum sanctorum was built of granite, the vimana was made of bricks and mortar. The vimana had developed a 3-foot crack due to vegetation, which had dislocated the sanctum’s slabs.

As a trial measure, six slabs have been stitched together using stainless steel rods, with the help of Professor M.S. Mathews of the Civil Engineering Department of Indian Institute of Technology, Madras.

[P_R]

Iravatham Mahadevan has been awarded the Padmashri

[P_R]

[tscii:5360fa9373]http://www.hindu.com/2009/04/27/stories/2009042756902000.htm
Indus script does encode a language

A. Srivathsan & T.S. Subramanian
New study reported in Science shows it was no mere ‘chain of symbols’

[html:5360fa9373]<img src= "http://www.thehindu.com/2009/04/27/images/2009042756902001.jpg">
[/html:5360fa9373]
An Indus seal from Mohenjodaro.
Chennai: Computation science, information theory, and machine learning have now come to the vindication of Indus Valley scholars – providing a new type of “quantitative evidence for the existence of linguistic structure in the Indus script, complementing other arguments that have been made explicitly or implicitly in favour of the linguistic hypothesis.” This quantitative evidence comes from the results of a statistical study published online recently in the journal Science ( http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/1170391v1).

Drawing from multiple disciplines, using rigorous equations, and through scientific number crunching, a team of scientists — including the well-known Indus script scholar, Iravatham Mahadevan — have demonstrated that the Indus script encodes a language and is not a mere “chain of symbols,” as an article published in 2004 claimed.

The seals and tablets of the Indus civilisation that flourished between 2500 and 1900 B.C carry examples of what has long been understood to be writing in an unknown language. Despite many attempts, the script, known for 130 years, has not been deciphered. The 2004 article, published in the Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies, challenged the idea that the Indus script encoded language and suggested that it might have been a non-linguistic symbol system like the Vinèa inscriptions of southeastern Europe and the Near Eastern emblem systems.

The new statistical study compared the pattern of symbols found on Indus Valley artifacts to five types of natural linguistic systems (the Sumerian logo-syllabic system, the Old Tamil alpha-syllabic system, the Rig Vedic Sanskrit alpha-syllabic system, English words, and English characters), four types of non-linguistic systems (including human DNA sequences and bacterial protein sequences), and the artificially created computer programming language, Fortran.

The decisive finding was that “the conditional entropy of Indus inscriptions closely matches those of linguistic systems and remains far from non-linguistic systems…The similarity in conditional entropy to Old Tamil, a Dravidian language, is especially interesting in light of the fact that many of the prominent decipherment efforts to date…have converged upon a proto-Dravidian hypothesis for the Indus script.”

The study is the collaborative work of Rajesh P.N. Rao, a University of Washington computer scientist; Nisha Yadav and Mayank N. Vahia of the Department of Astronomy & Astrophysics at the Tata Institute of Fundamental Research, Mumbai; Hrishikesh Joglekar, a software engineer from Mumbai; Ronojoy Adhikari, Faculty Fellow at the Institute of Mathematical Sciences, Chennai; and Mr. Mahadevan at the Indus Research Centre, Chennai.

Dr. Adhikari, who specialises in Novel Applications of Statistical Mechanics, has no doubt that that the Indus script was part of a structured language. Opening his Nokia mobile phone, he types the alphabets H and A one after the other. The messaging service automatically fills the next two slots with V and E. “This,” he says, “is a simple algorithm the mobile phone uses to help you complete a word quickly. It works on the principle of correlation. In English, when you use the alphabet Q, the next one that follows is often U. Every language has a probability or flexibility of what token would come after another. A token could be an alphabet or punctuation or any component of the linguistic system. We have used the idea of entropy to measure the non-randomness in a linguistic system including the Indus script.”

When Dr. Adhikari and his collaborators compared the conditional entropy of the Indus script with the conditional entropies of the various linguistic and non-linguistic systems, the results provided “quantitative evidence for the existence of linguistic structure in the Indus script.” “The Indus script,” he explains, “comes close to the entropy value of Old Tamil and lends credence to the debate that the Indus script is connected with the Dravidian language.”

The use of statistical methods is not new to research on the Indus script. The point of departure in the new study is the use of rigorous correlation techniques, a significant methodological advance.

Work on the Indus script continues. The temporal and spatial analysis of the script has been completed and awaits publication. There is scope to compare the Indus script with systems like the Chinese pictograms and the Egyptian hieroglyphics. Dr. Adhikari believes that all these efforts “are taking us closer to understanding the Indus script.”[/tscii:5360fa9373]

[crajkumar_be]

PR,
Was about to post that :)

Decent similarities to Tamil and Sanskrit. So, where does it leave the Aryan Invasion theory and its criticisms?

[P_R]

Decent similarities to Tamil and Sanskrit. Where does it say so ? AFAI understand they compared the symbol-sequences with several language syntaxes including Rig Vedic Sanskrit and old-Tamil. The alternate hypothesis was a comparison against certain non-linguistic sequences and it was found that it was close to the linguistic sequences. Thus the paper makes the claim that the Indus Valley sequences are likely to be representative of a language.

I am sure they must have made sure the choices of the sequences in the two sets was statistically unbiased. The proximity to old-Tamil is pretty exciting. It is also similar in Sumerian which is believed to be contemporaneous to the Indus valley civilization.

Whether the choice of nonlinguistic sequences is wide and unbiased enough is not clear. Since it was published in Science hopefully one can hope so.

For old Tamil they have used Ettuthogai, which even by the most aggressive estimates is 1500-2000 years after the Indus valley script !

Among the non linguistic sequences they have included a Fortran program for solving a particular physics problem. This confuses me a bit on how linguistic is defined. "If then else" type structure can also be called linguistic isn't it ? Perhaps podalangai can clarify.

btw, one of the authors is a software engineer from Oracle. :oops:

[crajkumar_be]

[tscii:dcb92571f6]

Decent similarities to Tamil and Sanskrit. Where does it say so ? AFAI understand they compared the symbol-sequences with several language syntaxes including Rig Vedic Sanskrit and old-Tamil. The alternate hypothesis was a comparison against certain non-linguistic sequences and it was found that it was close to the linguistic sequences. Thus the paper makes the claim that the Indus Valley sequences are likely to be representative of a language.


Adha thaan naan mean pannen :) Doesn't mean we can conclude its similar to Tamil or Sankrit-a? :oops:
adhavadhu, randomness illama oru grammar irukkara madhiri theriyidhu nu solraanga, right?


The decisive finding was that “the conditional entropy of Indus inscriptions closely matches those of linguistic systems and remains far from non-linguistic systems…The similarity in conditional entropy to Old Tamil, a Dravidian language, is especially interesting in light of the fact that many of the prominent decipherment efforts to date…have converged upon a proto-Dravidian hypothesis for the Indus script.”[/tscii:dcb92571f6]

[complicateur]

Bala,
This link (http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=1374) might provide more insight into what conditional entropy means in linguistics. Similar conditional entropy does not necessarily mean that the languages are similar. Just that they are at similar levels of sophistication. In fact the Indus Valley Civilization may not be similar to Rig Vedic Sanskrit or Thamizh. The paper is trying to refute an earlier paper's claim that the Indus valley civilization may not have been 'literate'.

[P_R]

Invented datasets.... It was pretty much the same doubt I had when I looked at the information about the datasets (http://indusresearch.wdfiles.com/local--files/script/ScienceIndus.pdf) I used. Seemed too specific and even handpicked. The randomly generated sequence seemed odd, but I assumed 'scholars' would know what they were doing.

How they make a broadbased conclusion seemed doubtful. And the entropy measure - because even I understood it - seemed too simple to be sufficient. But all said and done the proximity to proto-Tamil than Sanskrit seems like a vengaLa kiNNam. Or its just me grasping at straws.

My lack of clarity remains regarding what is a linguistic system and what is a non-linguistic system ?

[crajkumar_be]

Thanks Compli,

Will *attempt* to understand whatever little i can :)

[podalangai]

Invented datasets.... It was pretty much the same doubt I had when I looked at the information about the datasets (http://indusresearch.wdfiles.com/local--files/script/ScienceIndus.pdf) I used. Seemed too specific and even handpicked. The randomly generated sequence seemed odd, but I assumed 'scholars' would know what they were doing.

How they make a broadbased conclusion seemed doubtful. And the entropy measure - because even I understood it - seemed too simple to be sufficient. But all said and done the proximity to proto-Tamil than Sanskrit seems like a vengaLa kiNNam. Or its just me grasping at straws.

PR and others: You'll be interested in taking a look at Rahul Siddharthan's blog. Unlike Mark Liberman, he's a computer scientist, not a linguist, and he has a rather different take on the topic. Given that most of the authors were computer scientists, this gives a fairly good insight into what they thought they were doing:

http://horadecubitus.blogspot.com/2009/04/indus-what-did-rao-et-al-really-do.html

The discussion in the comments is particularly interesting. The main issue that others have taken with the paper is that its null hypothesis (i.e., the artificially constructed non-linguistic sign sets) is not realistic. The comments on Rahul Siddharthan's blog, however, suggest that these were intended to represent controls, rather than a null hypothesis. This puts a rather different cast on things, though it does call into question the adequacy of their datasets. That apart, as has been pointed out on academic lists, they're lumping too many years together in one dataset.

In any event, they've said more papers using more datasets will be forthcoming and, if reports can be believed, Mark Kenoyer will be working with them on an updated paper. It'll be interesting to see how well those results match up with the preliminary analysis contained in the paper in Science.

[P_R]

Thank You podalangai. For the nth time....please post more often. :-)

Good discussions in Rahul Siddharthan's blog. Enjoyed reading them. He kind of concedes it is "an overstatement to say the paper "proves" anything"

As the anonymous commentator in his blog put it


the heart of the matter then is the basis of the claim that the curve for any non-spoken script must lie "close" to either "Nonling Type 1" or "Nonling Type 2". Is that something generally accepted?

That is not clearly answered in the discussion there.

The same anonymous commentator ask a more vital question:
if a non-linguistic script can have an entropy value in the range of the linguistic scripts. That again is yet to be answered.

I thought Richard Sproat's comments (what does the space of non-linguistic systems look like) were also pretty much on-the-ball. But soon it descended to an appalling fistfight.

Though his attribution of motives and outright dismissal of counter-opinion is in bad taste I still think his words summarized things as they stand:


1 First we would need a much wider range of languages and
different types of writing systems.

2 Second we would need some serious corpora (not made up examples) of non-linguistic systems

In his third post on the paper Rahul Siddharthan writes thus.

Given the data for other languages in the Rao et al. paper, I would estimate P(D|HL) to be close to 1. That is, if the Indus script is a language, I would think it very likely that conditional entropies would closely resemble the data that Rao et al I think that interpretation is right. But that significantly diminishes the 'interestingness' of Rao et al.'s paper. :-)

[podalangai]

Though his attribution of motives and outright dismissal of counter-opinion is in bad taste I still think his words summarized things as they stand:


1 First we would need a much wider range of languages and
different types of writing systems.

2 Second we would need some serious corpora (not made up examples) of non-linguistic systems

In his third post on the paper Rahul Siddharthan writes thus.

Given the data for other languages in the Rao et al. paper, I would estimate P(D|HL) to be close to 1. That is, if the Indus script is a language, I would think it very likely that conditional entropies would closely resemble the data that Rao et al I think that interpretation is right. But that significantly diminishes the 'interestingness' of Rao et al.'s paper. :-)

I agree. Remember, though, that this is Rao et al's first word on the subject, not the last. Rao et al's paper is more of a "proof of concept" paper - i.e., they're trying to show that using this technique can produce interesting results. The real analysis - using the significantly larger data sets and corpora that Sproat mentions - on which they say they're working is what's going to produce the really interesting results. I think it's a positive sign that it's gotten people like Mark Kenoyer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Mark_Kenoyer) interested, and I'm quite looking forward to seeing how this pans out.

[Punnaimaran]

http://www.dinamalar.com/Pothunewsdetail.asp?News_id=14237

2500 year old Workshop found in Pazhani.

[gaddeswarup]

http://www.hindu.com/2009/06/28/stories/2009062854701600.htm

[P_R]

[tscii:7e8f7d57ff]Not exactly pertinent but something interesting in a paper about the Indus script.

Let us consider the rebus principle utilized in logo-syllabic scripts. Most signs were originally pictures denoting the objects or ideas they represented. But abstract concepts such as 'life‘ would be difficult to express pictorially. Therefore the meaning of a pictogram or ideogram was extended from the word for the depicted object to comprise all its homophones.

For example, in the Sumerian script the drawing of an arrow meant 'arrow', but in addition 'life' and 'rib', because all three words were pronounced alike in the Sumerian language, namely ti. Homophony must have played a role in folklore long before it was utilized in writing. The pun between the Sumerian words ti 'rib' and ti 'life' figures in the Sumerian paradise myth, in which the rib of the sick and dying water god Enki is healed by the Mistress of Life, Nin-ti. But the Biblical myth of Eve's creation out of Adam's rib no more makes sense because the original pun has been lost in translation: 'rib‘ in Hebrew is Sela no connection with Eve's Hebrew name H‘awwa:, which is explained in the Bible to mean - mother of all living
- Asko Parpola ( Is the Indus Script not a writing System (http://www.harappa.com/script/indus-writing.pdf))

:-)
[/tscii:7e8f7d57ff]

[Punnaimaran]

Brahmi script in Sankagiri.

http://www.dinamalar.com/Topnewsdetail.asp?News_id=1319

[podalangai]

[tscii:fc313ad5b3]Not exactly pertinent but something interesting in a paper about the Indus script.

Let us consider the rebus principle utilized in logo-syllabic scripts. Most signs were originally pictures denoting the objects or ideas they represented. But abstract concepts such as 'life‘ would be difficult to express pictorially. Therefore the meaning of a pictogram or ideogram was extended from the word for the depicted object to comprise all its homophones.

For example, in the Sumerian script the drawing of an arrow meant 'arrow', but in addition 'life' and 'rib', because all three words were pronounced alike in the Sumerian language, namely ti. Homophony must have played a role in folklore long before it was utilized in writing. The pun between the Sumerian words ti 'rib' and ti 'life' figures in the Sumerian paradise myth, in which the rib of the sick and dying water god Enki is healed by the Mistress of Life, Nin-ti. But the Biblical myth of Eve's creation out of Adam's rib no more makes sense because the original pun has been lost in translation: 'rib‘ in Hebrew is Sela no connection with Eve's Hebrew name H‘awwa:, which is explained in the Bible to mean - mother of all living
- Asko Parpola ( Is the Indus Script not a writing System (http://www.harappa.com/script/indus-writing.pdf))

:-)
[/tscii:fc313ad5b3]

I've heard through reliable academic sources that Asko Parpola has said at a conference that he no longer believes the Indus symbols were a "script" - rather, he now thinks they were a form of proto-writing. Apparently, he's been convinced by some of the arguments of Farmer, Witzel and Sproat. I'll post an update if anything comes out in print - until then, this is only rumour.

[podalangai]

While on the subject of the Indus script, Rao et al have published a fresh paper in PNAS, which is freely available for download:

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2009/08/04/0906237106.abstract

They've used a Markov model to extract patterns from the order in which the Indus symbols appear, and find that there are clear rules for sequencing symbols. They say that this supports their thesis that it is a script encoding language.

I'd say that what the paper demonstrates is that the Indus script encodes meaning, and a higher level of meaning than mere religious symbols or traffic signs. The question of whether that meaning is expressed in linguistic terms (i.e., as pronounceable syllables) or non-linguistic terms (along the lines of non-numeric quipu) is, in my view, one that tends to get blown somewhat out of proportion. A written language - recording thoughts and information in a manner based upon speech - is one way of preserving thoughts, but there's nothing about it that makes it inherently superior to systems that're not based on trying to record speech.

[podalangai]

Here's a piece from Science Daily about Rao et al's latest paper.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/08/090803185836.htm

[podalangai]

There's a piece in this week's issue of Time on the work of Rao and his collaborators:

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1919795,00.html

[pradheep]

Dear podalangai
Thanks for this wonderful information and keeping us updating with this area of research news.

[Punnaimaran]

http://beta.thehindu.com/news/states/article26324.ece

Indus valley symbols found in Kerala.

[wrap07]

http://www.hindu.com/fr/2009/09/25/stories/2009092551290700.htm

From a bygone era

[P_R]

Asko Parpola brief interview to the Hindu (http://beta.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/article397517.ece?homepage=true)

[podalangai]

[tscii:d98a106d54]Iravatham Mahadevan had a piece in the Hindu a few days ago, titled "An epigraphic perspective on the antiquity of Tamil." It's a wonderful overview of how the discovery of the Tamil Brahmi script has changed our understanding of the past:

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/article482654.ece

This bit was news to me:

A much more sensational discovery is a pottery inscription from an excavation conducted at Tissamaharama on the southeastern coast of Sri Lanka. A fragment of a high-quality black and red-ware flat dish inscribed in Tamil in the Tamil-Brahmi script was found in the earliest layer. It was provisionally dated to around 200 BCE by German scholars who undertook the excavation. The inscription reads tiraLi muRi, which means “written agreement of the assembly” (See Figure 4). The inscription bears testimony to the presence in southern Sri Lanka of a local Tamil mercantile community organised in a guild to conduct inland and maritime trade as early as at the close of the 3rd century BCE.[/tscii:d98a106d54]

[P_R]

Thank You podalai.

I didn't quite understand Parpola's article (http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/article481104.ece)though. I mean, what the significance of this is, in the whole scheme of things.

[Sudhaama]

[tscii:7ce435668a].


http://beta.thehindu.com/news/states/article26324.ece

Indus valley symbols found in Kerala.



“The discovery of the symbols are akin to that of the Harappan civilisation having predominantly Dravidian culture and testimony to the fact that cultural diffusion could take place. It is wrong to presume that the Indus culture disappeared into thin air,” Mr. Varier said.


Dr Max Muller had proved authentically that there was never a Human-race named as "Dravidian Race" nor Dravidian Culture anywhere in the world.

And the origin of all Indians belong to ONE HUMAN-RACE called Aryans of One Vedic-Culture spread over the whole ancient Bharatha which was named Bharatha varsha--

--which was spread over a vast area of the present countries, Afganisthan, Turkey, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Myanmar, Srilanka, Morecius, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia regions--

--as categorically established by analytical research on archaleogical sites at about 2500 locations in addition to Mahenjadaro and Harappa.

Archologically the findings at all these locations belong to One and the same Culture of One Human Race named Arya.--

The name Dravida means mainly the Language Tamil as called by others and not a separate Race nor Culture different from one Homogeneous ancient Vedic culture...

--of one and the same ancient Human-race spread over the whole region of Bharatha-Varsha land, as detailed above.

No doubt there existed two groups of Scripts Epigraphically called as Brahmi and Vattezhuthu (ancient Tamil Script)

British made Indian History is false " established Dr Max muller.

Such an argument of Max muller was accepted by Dr Ambedkar too and could not be further refuted by British Historians
.
[/tscii:7ce435668a]

[P_R]

Archologically the findings at all these locations belong to One and the same Culture

Sudhaama, the jury is still out on the script decipherment. The issue is far far from settled with claims, counterclaims and all.The thread is about news and updates on the progress in research in this field.

[PARAMASHIVAN]

sorry but some postings here are simply :rotfl3:

[PARAMASHIVAN]

Ariyar, Dravidar, Tamilar, singalavar, vellaiiyar , karupar all man made. There is no meaning to it. Race, Cast, Religion all made by the 'Mad humans'.

[Sudhaama]

[tscii:f08d5a4944]
.


. Why named BRAHMI.?







.

TAMIL is the FIRST Language of India.!


--as also the FOREMOST in World.!!!



--Says One French Historian, which multi-faceted Truth was endorsed by an American multi-scholar Dr. David Kaylor,

--who took zealous interest in Tamil language and learnt it to a scholarly level—

-- such that he could write an Analytical Treatise on Tamil-Veda THIRUVAAYMOZHI --

--and also extol that TAMIL-VEDA, THIRUVAAYMOZHI as the Most Exemplary Gospel of HUMAN-VALUES.!

In support of such a stand on the Greatness of Tamil Language, I had a MIRACULOUS EXPERIENCE—

--INCREDIBLE—but TRUE ! – Yes, My Personal Experience, about 50 years back


In a village near Nagpur India, my friends took me to a Sadhu baba Maharashtrian Brahmin, who was said to be a very rare person endowed with a high standard of Spiritual powers ESP (Extra Sensory Powers)--

--especially a THOUGHT-READER who could be possessed by the Holy Spirit of Sri Sant Tukaram and narrate His words in reply to our Questions on Life.

When I came in front of him, he opened his closed eyes and just smiled at me silently— raising one hand up, in a blessing gesture.

My friends whispered to me, “Oh You are lucky.! He rarely permits anybody and he has invited you with blessings. It is a good sign to mean that he is prepared to answer to your questions.”

As already guided by my Friends earlier— I prostrated at him and sat in front silently.

With closed eyes, he started talking to me in Hindi. (He knew only two Languages, Marathi and Hindi. I was well-conversant with Hindi too.)

“Your name is ------- (Said Correctly) --- You are a person of SARASWATHI-BASHA .

--You have come here for ---- purpose. Now You have come to me to get answers on Life Questions---- and so on-- he was uttering one after another amazing statements of Truth past and present, on my personal Life unknown to anybody else as Mankind.


Then I asked “What is meant by SARASWATHI-BASHA.?”

He replied “Your Language TAMIL is SARASWATHI-BASHA.—created by Vishnu but taught by Him to Saraswathi devi--


--who taught it to the Earthly Mankind then at Prayag (Allahabad), several Thousands of years back---

--- as the First Language of the World.


Sanskrit is a BRAHMA-BASHA created by lord Vishnu and taught to Brahma who spread it on Earth through Maha-Rishis (Sages)—

--but Sanskrit was introduced to Earthly Mankind subsequently,

--Only as a SECOND LANGUAGE after Tamil---


Because every time, Saraswathi-devi used to emerge out of Saraswathi-River at Prayag--- Ganga, Yamuna, Saraswathi Tri- Rivers Junction,


---Stranger people too called Your Language Tamil--- as SARASWATHI-BASHA” Said Sadhu-Baba to me in person.

I could believe it by linking with Frenchman’s History---

---and Tamil Saint AUVAIYAR’s Biography.!!!



Yes Tamil is the SARASWATHI-BASHA.!!!


.I believe it--- whether Others believe so, Or Not.!

.
.[/tscii:f08d5a4944]

[podalangai]

http://www.hindu.com/2009/06/28/stories/2009062854701600.htm

And, two years later, a follow up:

As you'll remember, the original article related to the excavation of a grave at Porunthal, where they'd found a jar with paddy, beads, stirrups and two inscribed ring-stands which read "vayra" in Tamil Brahmi. Well, according to the Hindu, they've now dated the paddy in the jars excavated at Porunthal and it's been dated to 490 BC.

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/article2407358.ece

As the Hindu points out, this is potentially revolutionary. As people who've been following this thread know, the Brahmi script is generally taken to have originated at Asoka's court. If the dating is correct, then we have here an example of Brahmi writing from well over 200 years before Asoka's time. There's no sign that the grave's ever been excavated earlier - the site looks like a one-time burial, so if the paddy's from 490BC, then so is the inscription (we can, I think, safely discount the possibility that they just happened to have 300-year old grains lying around at the time of the funeral).

As the Hindu reports, the excavators of the site, and people like Professor Chakrabarti (Cambridge) are taking this finding very seriously, while others are a little more cautious. It's too early to tell either way, but it'll be interesting to see how this finding develops. It's worth mentioning that there's previously been an inscription found at Anuradhapuram that was dated to a pre-Asokan period, but everyone assumed something had gone wrong with the dating. And the Late Dr. Gift Siromoney had, of course, spent much of his career arguing for a South Indian origin of Brahmi, as we've discussed a few pages back on this thread.

[P_R]

I was about to post this.

Hope you are doing fine podalangai. Long time no see.

[podalangai]

I'm fine, PR. Work, students and family life have been keeping me busy.

Back on topic. This piece by Dr. N. Kasinathan (formerly of the Archaeological Department), published last year, may be of interest in this context:

http://www.keetru.com/index.php?view=article&id=13673:2011-03-20-09-05-58

The entire article is well worth reading. These were his conclusions:


கி.மு.300இல் இந்தியாவின் வடபகுதிக்கு வருகை புரிந்த கிரேக்க நாட்டுத் தூதுவர் மெகசுதனிசு இந்தியாவில் அப்பொழுது எழுத்தே இல்லை என்று எழுதியிருக்கிறார். மேலும், கி.பி. 1030இல் இந்தியாவின் வடபகுதிக்கு வந்த அல்பெருனியும், “தாம் முன்பே குறிப்பிட்டதுபோன்று இந்தியா எழுத்தை இழந்துவிட்டது. மக்கள் எழுத்தை மறந்துவிட்டனர். அது பற்றி யாரும் கவலைப்படவில்லை. ஆதலால் மக்கள் கல்வியறிவு அற்றவர்களாக ஆகி விட்டனர்’’ என்று எழுதியிருக்கிறார். இந்தியாவின் வடபகுதி அவ்வப்பொழுது எழுத்தை இழந்திருக்கிறது.

அப்படியிருக்கையில் மௌரிய மன்னன் அசோகன் திடீரென கி.மு. 3ஆம் நூற்றாண்டில் நன்கு வளர்ச்சி பெற்ற ஒரு எழுத்தை எவ்வாறு பெற்றிருப்பான்? அவன் இந்தியாவின் வேறெந்த பகுதியிலாவது வழக்கிலிருந்த ஒரு எழுத்தைத்தான் தம் நாட்டிலும் பயன்படுத்தியிருப்பான்.

அக்காலக் கட்டத்தில் தமிழ்நாட்டில் மன்னர்கள் மற்றும் சாதாரணப் பொதுமக்கள் ஆகியோருக்கு நன்கு அறிமுகமாகியிருந்த தொன்மைத் தமிழ் எழுத்தைத்தான் அசோகன் தம் நாட்டில் தம் நாட்டு மொழிக்கு ஏற்பச் சில மாற்றங்களோடு பயன்படுத்தி யிருப்பான் என்று கொள்வதே நியாயமான முடிவாகும்.

இக்கருத்துக்கு வலிவு சேர்க்கும் வகையில் கி.பி. 7ஆம் நூற்றாண்டில் ஒரு நிகழ்வு நடந்திருக்கிறது. திபேத்திய நாட்டு அரசர் சிராங்-த்சென் கன்-போ தம் நாட்டுக்கென ஒரு எழுத்தில்லாத நிலையில், இந்தியாவில் வழங்கிவந்த எழுத்தைத் தம் நாட்டுக்குத் தேவையான சில மாற்றங்களுடன் பயன்படுத்திக் கொண்டார் என்று வரலாறு கூறுகிறது. எனவே, மௌரிய வேந்தன் அசோகனும், பிற்காலத்திய திபெத்திய மன்னர் போன்று, இந்தியாவின் தென்பகுதியான தமிழ்நாட்டில் வழங்கி வந்த தொன்மைத் தமிழைத்தான் பயன்படுத்தியிருப்பான்.

[podalangai]

By the way, here's an older article which I'd intended to post some months ago but didn't get around to doing. The site at Porunthal from which this inscription came has since been destroyed, so further excavations will not be possible:

http://www.hindu.com/fr/2011/05/27/stories/2011052750430100.htm

The ASI tend to document their excavations quite well, which is fortunate as far as the analysis of what was recovered is concerned. It is a shame that we'll not be able to look for any further evidence, though.

[raagadevan]

"Edakal cave yields one more Tamil-Brahmi inscription "

http://www.thehindu.com/arts/history-and-culture/article2872568.ece


"New details emerge from Edakal Malayalam inscription find "

http://www.thehindu.com/arts/history-and-culture/article3501408.ece?homepage=true

[podalangai]

Strictly speaking, this piece is genetics rather than archaeology, but it's topical. Analyses of genetic variation in the Y-chromosome among Australian aborigines suggests that around 2000 BC, they were joined by a group of settlers from Southern India.

http://www.economist.com/news/science-and-technology/21569688-genetic-evidence-suggests-four-millennia-ago-group-adventurous-indians

[P_R]

Tamil Brahmi script found in Thirupparankundram - http://www.thehindu.com/features/friday-review/history-and-culture/tamilbrahmi-script-discovered-on-tirupparankundram-hill/article4412125.ece



The lines, each having four letters, read as, “Muu-na-ka-ra” and “Muu-ca-ka-ti.” The first line has a trishul-like symbol as a graffiti mark at its end. The first letter “muu” can mean “three” or being ancient or old. “In the present context, the meaning of ancient is more probable,” Ramesh and Prasanna said. The na-ka-ra/na-kar-r represents a town or city. So the first line could be read as “ancient town,” probably meaning Madurai, they suggested. In the second line, the first letter “muu” again stands for “ancient or old.” The remaining three letters, ca-ka-ti/ca-k-ti may represent a “yakshi,” they said. (Yakshis are women attendants of the 24 Jaina tirthankaras). “So the inscription can be read as goddess of the ancient city. But it is open to different interpretations,” they said.

V. Vedachalam, retired senior epigraphist, Tamil Nadu Archaeology Department, said the first line stood for an elderly Jaina monk and the second one could mean “motcha/moksha gadhi.” So the script could stand for a Jaina monk who, facing north, went on a fast unto death there. That is, he attained nirvana. This is the first time that a Tamil-Brahmi script, referring to a Jaina monk who fasted unto death, had been discovered.

“It is difficult to assign a date to this inscription but it can be dated prior to the first century BCE,” said Dr. Rajan.

[P_R]

podalangai, is Dinamalar Krishnamurthy a brahmi expert?
In today's Hindu he has counter-claimed the symbol is Saivite: http://www.thehindu.com/features/friday-review/history-and-culture/trisula-found-on-tirupparankundram-inscription-is-a-saivite-symbol/article4422864.ece
Nothing persuasive yet.

[raagadevan]

Newly discovered Brahmi inscription deciphered

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/kerala/newly-discovered-brahmi-inscription-deciphered/article5777862.ece

[raagadevan]

brought forward

[raagadevan]

"Edakal cave yields one more Tamil-Brahmi inscription "

http://www.thehindu.com/arts/history-and-culture/article2872568.ece


"New details emerge from Edakal Malayalam inscription find "

http://www.thehindu.com/arts/history-and-culture/article3501408.ece?homepage=true

[raagadevan]

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/kerala/newly-discovered-brahmi-inscription-deciphered/article5777862.ece