Is SC's verdict on reservation good for our development ?

[Punnaimaran]

The 5 judge bench of the Supreme Court today upheld a law which provides for 27 per cent reservation for Other Backward Castes (OBCs) in educational institutions supported by the Central government.

Will this judgement be able to uplift the Indians ? Let's share our views.

[crazy]

Will this judgement be able to uplift the Indians ?

it will :)

[Punnaimaran]

Thank you Crazy for your reply..

[Billgates]

It will , provided the benefit reaches to the concerned.

[P_R]

It will , provided the benefit reaches to the concerned. Yes. The news says the 'creamy layer' among the OBCs has been excluded from the benefit :thumbsup:

Correct me if I am wrong, but this is first judgement about the reservation that brings up the issue of excluding the 'creamy layer'. Right ? If so, it is truly a landmark judgement and can change the scope of the reservation debate. :clap:

Would like to know how the 'creamy layer' is defined. Informed hubbers please comment.

[Dilbert]

[quote]
Would like to know how the 'creamy layer' is defined. Informed hubbers please comment.


Well its simple vote for Cong :oops: by default your caste will be part of OBC and excluded from ICE CREAM.

Really great Landmark judgement. :notworthy: Indian DemoGracy at iTS Beast.. this means

A person just bcoz he is born in a specific cast immaterial or his financial status imaterial of his score.. > has to wait in the queue

SO that HIS Fellow BROTHER (s) who are born in a cast which is part of SC / ST / OBC -- Another Suggested one OSC (Other sided castes) who have will be selected by default immaterial of his or her finanacial status and there score.

India definetely .. have Very bright future.! with this judgement. :oops: :notworthy:

[Roshan]

Can any body provide some links related to the matter being discussed? Would like to know more.

[Dilbert]

Can any body provide some links related to the matter being discussed? Would like to know more.

When did you become veteran.. :shock: bro.

[Punnaimaran]

It will , provided the benefit reaches to the concerned. Yes. The news says the 'creamy layer' among the OBCs has been excluded from the benefit :thumbsup:

Correct me if I am wrong, but this is first judgement about the reservation that brings up the issue of excluding the 'creamy layer'. Right ? If so, it is truly a landmark judgement and can change the scope of the reservation debate. :clap:

Would like to know how the 'creamy layer' is defined. Informed hubbers please comment.

As per the Mandal judgment, the children of constitutional functionaries including the President, judges of the Supreme Court and High Courts, members of the Union Public Service Commission, Groups A and B or Class I or II officers of the All-India Central and State services and children of public sector employees are excluded from reservation.

But whether the rich business class belonging to OBC is considered 'creamy' or not is still to be clarified.

Punnaimaran

[Punnaimaran]

It will , provided the benefit reaches to the concerned.

How do we ensure that the benefits reach the concerned ? The reservation for SC/ST category is being enjoyed only by the same set of people for the 3rd generation now, whereas the majority continue to be school dropouts.

The main point is will the benefits reach the deserving ?

Punnaimaran

[Punnaimaran]

Can any body provide some links related to the matter being discussed? Would like to know more.

http://www.pucl.org/from-archives/Dalit-tribal/mandal-2.htm

[P_R]

Thanks again Punnaimaran on the info.

But whether the rich business class belonging to OBC is considered 'creamy' or not is still to be clarified. Yes. I saw the news item on NDTV that said there were ceilings on property holdings and annual income for the definition of creamy layer. If I remember right the annual income ceiling is 2.5 lakh ! There is a news item exclusively focusing on this at 9 tonight.

If they manage to enforce this, it will be truly remarkable :clap:

[app_engine]

>>If they manage to enforce this<<

One thing is for sure, they'll be able to enforce this on "salaried - employed" group of people (based on tax returns or otherwise easily).

It'll be difficult to enforce on other group of people whose occupation is agriculture or some businesses. ( I remember not being able to get "National Merit Scholarship" due to my father's monthly income exceeding the cap of Rs 500 (yes 500 in 1981 was considered very high!), while every classmate from non-salaried background could avail it despite being rich). Interestingly, some children of such parents who were salaried got "adopted" by their "poor" relatives to avail the scholarships:-))

[wrap07]

K Venugopal, one of India's highly respected lawyers told rediff.com on Thursday, "According to today's judgment, the Indian Institute of Management and All India Institute of Medical Sciences will not have any reservation for Other Backward Classes."

Venugopal appeared in this landmark hearing in the Supreme Court on behalf of the Junior Doctors Association of AIIMS, New Delhi.

Explaining the reason behind it, he said, "Justices Arijit Pasayat, C K Thakker and Dalveer Bhandari has clearly said in their judgment that you ceased to be OBC when you are educated and attain graduation. Test of the OBC is social and educational backwardness. It says "and", that means if you are not educationally backward you are not OBC. The court has accepted the argument that if you are able to graduate you are not entitled to reservation."

"Not only IIMs, but even AIIMS and such other centres of higher learning will not have any OBC reservation," Venugopal added.

While putting the entire judgment in perspective Venugopal said, "This balanced judgment has scaled down the huge volume of OBC to the core level of OBC. This judgment has upheld the economic criteria of 1993 depriving large number of members of OBC from benefiting from reservation. It is a serious setback to the government who wanted to fill up prestigious institutes with OBC quotas. Today's judgment has kept graduation as the 'cut-off' point that will reduce the numbers of beneficiaries of OBC reservation."

"The 1993 criteria to decide 'creamy layer' amongst OBC section says that people with landed property, all government employees above Class II, all OBC families with monthly income of Rs 20,000 (gross annual income of Rs.2.5 lakh and above ) etc. are barred from availing any reservation from now onwards," Venugopal said.

[wrap07]

From the above news, it looks like a balanced judgement with the intention of reservation reaching the deserving people.

[pavalamani pragasam]

>>If they manage to enforce this<<

One thing is for sure, they'll be able to enforce this on "salaried - employed" group of people (based on tax returns or otherwise easily).

It'll be difficult to enforce on other group of people whose occupation is agriculture or some businesses. ( I remember not being able to get "National Merit Scholarship" due to my father's monthly income exceeding the cap of Rs 500 (yes 500 in 1981 was considered very high!), while every classmate from non-salaried background could avail it despite being rich). Interestingly, some children of such parents who were salaried got "adopted" by their "poor" relatives to avail the scholarships:-))

This reminds my own loss of merit scholarship in PG course because my father's income entered in the application form was above the scholarship eligibility level!
It is a strange paradox in our incometax evaluation which holds the salaried class in its claws while a platform vendor of a busy shopping area, even the hot bajji, vadai vendors in carts may earn far more than the office-goers & have no need to submit any account to anybody!

[P_R]

It says "and", that means if you are not educationally backward you are not OBC. The court has accepted the argument that if you are able to graduate you are not entitled to reservation." :mad:

A perfect example of intentionally skipping the spirit of the law and sticking to the letter of the law.

[Roshan]

I have many doubts and questions but inga kEkkuRathukku bayamA irukku :shaking:

[app_engine]

>>even the hot bajji, vadai vendors in carts <<

பாவம் அவங்கள விடுங்க. They have a lot of uncertainties in their revenues and also life-events. Unfortunately, those who call themselves "professionals" and "businessmen" cheat on a large scale basis in declarations (often non-declarations).

[pavalamani pragasam]

The doctors never give a bill for treatment or hospitalisation unless requested for reimbursement purposes! How black money is generated! No awareness among the buyers who are indifferent if the seller refuses to give receipt. Many such anomalies are the causes necessitating our ludicrous laws which are full of loopholes.

[pavalamani pragasam]

It is a digression from the topic of the thread, but my anger at the increasing callous practices in the medical profession, the clever, crooked ways they have to fleece a patient also causing unnessary physical & mental trauma to the patient & the relatives. They spend so many lakhs to get a seat in the medical college, spend many more lakhs to set up a semi-posh clinic & run it like a business firm utterly forgetting the nobility of their profession.

[harishkumar09]

This is a controversial verdict. Reservation for Dalits is justified but for OBCs its stretching the point. But the fact that the cremay layer should be excluded is a welcome decision and needs to be praised.

[Dilbert]

My Point was ,This Vote Bank politics has to stop enough of reservations on every single caste and tribe.

Than again divided them in to Ice cream, Face cream, You scream.

If ---- headed politican even thinks straight the policy should be very simple. if a kid wants to study something MBBS , IIM ,IIT if he or she has wat it takes. Than Govt should fund the scholarship No questions asked.

The Money spend on several commission to understand which caste and tribe needs what is more than sufficient to educate Students who are in need of scholarship.

aabhhaa.. when will our people understand all this..:(

[MADDY]

K Venugopal, one of India's highly respected lawyers told rediff.com on Thursday, "According to today's judgment, the Indian Institute of Management and All India Institute of Medical Sciences will not have any reservation for Other Backward Classes."

Venugopal appeared in this landmark hearing in the Supreme Court on behalf of the Junior Doctors Association of AIIMS, New Delhi.

Explaining the reason behind it, he said, "Justices Arijit Pasayat, C K Thakker and Dalveer Bhandari has clearly said in their judgment that you ceased to be OBC when you are educated and attain graduation. Test of the OBC is social and educational backwardness. It says "and", that means if you are not educationally backward you are not OBC. The court has accepted the argument that if you are able to graduate you are not entitled to reservation."

"Not only IIMs, but even AIIMS and such other centres of higher learning will not have any OBC reservation," Venugopal added.

While putting the entire judgment in perspective Venugopal said, "This balanced judgment has scaled down the huge volume of OBC to the core level of OBC. This judgment has upheld the economic criteria of 1993 depriving large number of members of OBC from benefiting from reservation. It is a serious setback to the government who wanted to fill up prestigious institutes with OBC quotas. Today's judgment has kept graduation as the 'cut-off' point that will reduce the numbers of beneficiaries of OBC reservation."

"The 1993 criteria to decide 'creamy layer' amongst OBC section says that people with landed property, all government employees above Class II, all OBC families with monthly income of Rs 20,000 (gross annual income of Rs.2.5 lakh and above ) etc. are barred from availing any reservation from now onwards," Venugopal said.

truly a landmark judgement.... :clap:


Explaining the reason behind it, he said, "Justices Arijit Pasayat, C K Thakker and Dalveer Bhandari has clearly said in their judgment that you ceased to be OBC when you are educated and attain graduation. Test of the OBC is social and educational backwardness. It says "and", that means if you are not educationally backward you are not OBC. The court has accepted the argument that if you are able to graduate you are not entitled to reservation."

"Not only IIMs, but even AIIMS and such other centres of higher learning will not have any OBC reservation," Venugopal added.

icing on the cake :notworthy: ...........

[ajithfederer]

hehhehe :lol2: :yessir:


Can any body provide some links related to the matter being discussed? Would like to know more.

When did you become veteran.. :shock: bro.

[always]

K Venugopal, one of India's highly respected lawyers told rediff.com on Thursday, "According to today's judgment, the Indian Institute of Management and All India Institute of Medical Sciences will not have any reservation for Other Backward Classes."

Venugopal appeared in this landmark hearing in the Supreme Court on behalf of the Junior Doctors Association of AIIMS, New Delhi.

Explaining the reason behind it, he said, "Justices Arijit Pasayat, C K Thakker and Dalveer Bhandari has clearly said in their judgment that you ceased to be OBC when you are educated and attain graduation. Test of the OBC is social and educational backwardness. It says "and", that means if you are not educationally backward you are not OBC. The court has accepted the argument that if you are able to graduate you are not entitled to reservation."

"Not only IIMs, but even AIIMS and such other centres of higher learning will not have any OBC reservation," Venugopal added.

While putting the entire judgment in perspective Venugopal said, "This balanced judgment has scaled down the huge volume of OBC to the core level of OBC. This judgment has upheld the economic criteria of 1993 depriving large number of members of OBC from benefiting from reservation. It is a serious setback to the government who wanted to fill up prestigious institutes with OBC quotas. Today's judgment has kept graduation as the 'cut-off' point that will reduce the numbers of beneficiaries of OBC reservation."

"The 1993 criteria to decide 'creamy layer' amongst OBC section says that people with landed property, all government employees above Class II, all OBC families with monthly income of Rs 20,000 (gross annual income of Rs.2.5 lakh and above ) etc. are barred from availing any reservation from now onwards," Venugopal said.

excellent :thumbsup:

[MADDY]

K Venugopal, one of India's highly respected lawyers told rediff.com on Thursday, "According to today's judgment, the Indian Institute of Management and All India Institute of Medical Sciences will not have any reservation for Other Backward Classes."

Venugopal appeared in this landmark hearing in the Supreme Court on behalf of the Junior Doctors Association of AIIMS, New Delhi.

Explaining the reason behind it, he said, "Justices Arijit Pasayat, C K Thakker and Dalveer Bhandari has clearly said in their judgment that you ceased to be OBC when you are educated and attain graduation. Test of the OBC is social and educational backwardness. It says "and", that means if you are not educationally backward you are not OBC. The court has accepted the argument that if you are able to graduate you are not entitled to reservation."

"Not only IIMs, but even AIIMS and such other centres of higher learning will not have any OBC reservation," Venugopal added.

While putting the entire judgment in perspective Venugopal said, "This balanced judgment has scaled down the huge volume of OBC to the core level of OBC. This judgment has upheld the economic criteria of 1993 depriving large number of members of OBC from benefiting from reservation. It is a serious setback to the government who wanted to fill up prestigious institutes with OBC quotas. Today's judgment has kept graduation as the 'cut-off' point that will reduce the numbers of beneficiaries of OBC reservation."

"The 1993 criteria to decide 'creamy layer' amongst OBC section says that people with landed property, all government employees above Class II, all OBC families with monthly income of Rs 20,000 (gross annual income of Rs.2.5 lakh and above ) etc. are barred from availing any reservation from now onwards," Venugopal said.

excellent :thumbsup:

rediff news-la theeya vekka.... :hammer: ....read the judgement again in all the papers/news sites......all IIMs and AIIMS are included in this reservation judgement............all i can say is i'm shattered........all the struggle of those students have gone in vain.......

i mean, take a bow, indian law - y wud a REC passed out engineer need reservation in IIM - only india possible :notworthy: .....i completely support reservation in schools,colleges but y in higher education?? i mean the person has already graduated rite??? how is he backward then????.....i studied with a real estate builders' son in my engg days.....he was a SC and he used to pay meagre fees bcos of his SC/ST credential.......and me, my father used to struggle to pay the entire fees just bcos my f**king forefathers oppressed people 100 yrs back.........enga appavaadhu engala padikka vechhittaru, naanga eppadi enga pulla kuttingala padikka vekka poromo?? :shaking: .......pesama, rendu maadu vaangi kuduthhu meikka sollalaam......:clap: ........this is what indian govt. and indian law want to happen to the so-called forward castes...........

Indian govt. and Indian law are clearly oppressing a certain section of people...... :) .........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lJIjdajBww

[joe]

Would like to know how the 'creamy layer' is defined. Informed hubbers please comment.

இந்த நிலையில் பாலாடை பட்டியலில் குறிப்பிடப்பட்டியிருக்கும் வகுப்பினரைப் பார்ப்போம்.

மாணவரின் பெற்றோர் ஒருவர், இரண்டாம் கட்ட அலுவலராகவோ, அதற்கு மேலாகவோ இருந்தால்(அரசு/தனியார்), பெற்றோரில் ஒருவர் தொழில் நெறிஞ்சராக (Professional) இருந்தால், வரம்பிற்கு உட்பட்ட நிலம் வைத்திருந்தாலோ (விவசாய/காலி), 1லட்ச ரூபாய், அல்லது அதற்கு அதிகமான வருட வருமாணம் இருந்தாலோ, இட ஒதுக்கிட்டிற்கு தகுதியிழக்கிறார்

More here..
http://tbcd-tbcd.blogspot.com/2008/04/obc-reservation-27-creamy-layer.html

[Billgates]

IMO, the defn. of Creamy layer is fair enough.
OBC should lose their status once they become economically sustainable

[joe]

I have many doubts and questions but inga kEkkuRathukku bayamA irukku :shaking:

I think ,you are one who can ask reasonable questions since you are out of the circle and nobody can brand you .

[joe]

Maddy -kku pathil sollanumnnu thonuthu ..let me wait for other's arguements. :)

[always]

rediff news-la theeya vekka.... :hammer: ....read the judgement again in all the papers/news sites......all IIMs and AIIMS are included in this reservation judgement............all i can say is i'm shattered........all the struggle of those students have gone in vain.......

i mean, take a bow, indian law - y wud a REC passed out engineer need reservation in IIM - only india possible :notworthy: .....i completely support reservation in schools,colleges but y in higher education?? i mean the person has already graduated rite??? how is he backward then????.....i studied with a real estate builders' son in my engg days.....he was a SC and he used to pay meagre fees bcos of his SC/ST credential.......and me, my father used to struggle to pay the entire fees just bcos my f**king forefathers oppressed people 100 yrs back.........enga appavaadhu engala padikka vechhittaru, naanga eppadi enga pulla kuttingala padikka vekka poromo?? :shaking: .......pesama, rendu maadu vaangi kuduthhu meikka sollalaam......:clap: ........this is what indian govt. and indian law want to happen to the so-called forward castes...........

Indian govt. and Indian law are clearly oppressing a certain section of people...... :) .........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lJIjdajBww

what the :x .There's a limit to everything. What about merit students who actually deserve the getting in. If this continues then the next level will be 25% jobs at Infy etc for OBC :banghead: I mean after high school they can find jobs and study on their own. asking for reservation seats is ridiculous

[MADDY]

Maddy -kku pathil sollanumnnu thonuthu ..let me wait for other's arguements. :)

b4 u assume something, i would like to tell i'm for reservations.........we shuld give a level playing field for oppressed people........all i want to say is, there is no purpose of reservation in higher education centres like IIMs.......

[Roshan]

I have many doubts and questions but inga kEkkuRathukku bayamA irukku :shaking:

I think ,you are one who can ask reasonable questions since you are out of the circle and nobody can brand you .

Some of the hub friends have volunteered to help me out. I think it's better for me to deal through pms and emails :)

AanA Maddy'ku badhil sollanumnu enakkum thOnuthu, kashtapattu control paNNittu irukkEn :P :wink: :lol:

Anyway I can continue my discussions with Maddy bilatterally :)

[MADDY]

AanA Maddy'ku badhil sollanumnu enakkum thOnuthu, kashtapattu control paNNittu irukkEn :P :wink: :lol:

Anyway I can continue my discussions with Maddy bilatterally :)

please feel free to discuss anything :) ..........

ofcourse, it was the initial anger that i displayed over there........i accept its survival of the fittest........and there are so many avenues in today's world where reservations cannnot enter.........adhula nolanju pozhaikka vendiyadhu dhaan :lol:

i'm for reservations but not a blind one and with a intention to oppress forward caste people.. its also not that i like them or support them, but to avoid a cycle of oppression continuing in the world.......100 yrs from now, u may see these fwd caste people protesting for reservations :lol: ....(forward caste - this phrase cracks me up nowadays :rotfl: )

[Billgates]

Digression :

Today the term " Forward caste " has no meaning . Instance, a temple priest will be a poor man but he will come under Forward !
Similarly, a Vaisya must be making crores but he might be taking advantage of a backward class ! Paradoxical !

Bring creamy layer everywhere. Thats the best

[joe]

b4 u assume something
Don't worry Maddy ..I don't have any pre-notion ..If at all I argue here ,i will argue only with the points mentioned by you.

[sriranga]

Reservation, though, is good for the people who have suffered.

I think now its is going the PDS way.

PDS is to help people below poverty line. but, it has lot of loopholes and the delivery system is so much corrupted.
sometimes, the rice they give in PDS, even arasiyalvaathi veetu naayikku kooda antha mathiri sora podamattanga.

PDS, a good scheme but due to the lack of will of the politicians, is failing.

Similarly, I think reservation is going the same way. I have many of my friends who studied with me through reservation quota, most of them had studied in tamil medium till 12th. then, they cudn't cope with engineering. they failed badly and cudn't find a decent job.

Politicians, just for vote sake, bring these things but delivery system is not there.
Creamy layer is being talked now. But, how are they going to make sure that the deserving people gets the seat.
There are lot of questions that needs to be answered.

finally, my answer to the tpic.
yes, reservation is good for the development of "politician's votebank" for now.

Unless all the loopholes are plugged, i don't know how reservation can help the development of downtrodden people.
When people like NRN say improve the basic primary education in public schools, these politicians are giving reservation in IIM, AIIMS.

[joe]

I have many of my friends who studied with me through reservation quota, they had studied in tamil medium till 12th. then, they cudn't cope with engineering. they failed badly and cudn't find a decent job..

Do you mean ,it is just because they studied in Thamizh medium ? :roll:

[crazy]

what the :x .There's a limit to everything. What about merit students who actually deserve the getting in. If this continues then the next level will be 25% jobs at Infy etc for OBC :banghead: I mean after high school they can find jobs and study on their own. asking for reservation seats is ridiculous

:notthatway:


ennai ketta idhu oru nalla theerppu endru thaan solven :yes:
Indian Govt :thumbsup:

[Billgates]

We also need to know the % of improvement in the lives of BC/OBC since the quota system was introduced . Anybody has the stats ?

IMO, if there is no significant change in their lives, its no use continuing with the quota mechanism bcaz it might not reach the deserving candidates

[MADDY]

We also need to know the % of improvement in the lives of BC/OBC since the quota system was introduced . Anybody has the stats ?

thats not a fair arguement......they have been oppressed for centuries and we expect turnaround in decades :) .........it will take time.......but i can give a fantastic example.....one of our presidents came from dalit community :clap: .......

as sriranga said our PDS model is a flop for anything/everything, so we dont know how much it reached them...........also, i saw a CNN-IBN news article showing how easy it is to get a SC/ST certificate....they "bought" the certificate rite in front of our eyes in 10 minutes :oops:

i dont think anyone here will oppose to economical status based reservation...........as bill said, a temple poosari gets Rs.400 or 500 as his monthly salary from govt.......how can he be a fwd ?? my only wish is that these poor ppl. shuld also be added in reservation bandwagon..........avanga thaatha, thaatha-voda thaatha panna thappukku ivanga enna pannuvaanga?? varumai-la kodumaikku vera aalaganuma?

[Billgates]

One way to identify economic backwardness may be >> pick those who are living in slums , roads etc & give them free education, quota & jobs also.

[Billgates]

We can safely assume that atleast 2 generation of SC/ST/ OBCs have benefitted by quota since it was formed.
Now these guys should lose their SC/ST/OBC status & get classified under NORMAL group . Otherwise whats happening currently is that the same guys continue to enjoy the benefits for their next generation. Consequently, there is a big race within the Dalits for quota

This competition within themselves can only delay the rehabilitation ( reform ) process

[wrap07]

it all boils down to identifying the deserving people and ensuring that it reaches them. A fool proof system has to be evolved to ensure that only the deserving reap the benefits of reservation.

It looks supreme court has put logical conditons for creamy layer. May be more clarity will come in few days.

[sriranga]

I have many of my friends who studied with me through reservation quota, they had studied in tamil medium till 12th. then, they cudn't cope with engineering. they failed badly and cudn't find a decent job..

Do you mean ,it is just because they studied in Thamizh medium ? :roll:

Thamizh medium-la padicha students-la avanga bright students, no doubt. But, after 12 years of education in tamil, they struggled in engineering due to their lack of english knowledge.

The resevation system, though, guaranteed them a seat in engineering, didn't help them after that.

I am just pointing one of the areas where reservation system had failed in its objective. These issues need to be addressed.

[P_R]

Thanks for the info Joe.

Maddy, it is all about opening new avenues to sections of the populations who have not been able to make it due to social conditions and even mindsets ingrained over the years.

The yen for higher education grows with exposure. In communities traditionally underexposed to higher education, the tendency to think of "some college education" itself as an achievement has to go. This is where this reservation will make a big difference. Communities which are underexposed to higher education opportunities will really benefit a great deal from this reservation.

It just does not pay to think of it as retribution - that is the language politicians would like us to believe. If at all there is an unfairness in the whole thing it is with the creamy layer eating up the reserved seats and thereby defeating the very purpose of the reservation.

This is why I am thrilled by the judgement directing the government to exclude the creamy layer in the implementation of this reservation.

[joe]

I have many of my friends who studied with me through reservation quota, they had studied in tamil medium till 12th. then, they cudn't cope with engineering. they failed badly and cudn't find a decent job..

Do you mean ,it is just because they studied in Thamizh medium ? :roll:

Thamizh medium-la padicha students-la avanga bright students, no doubt. But, after 12 years of education in tamil, they struggled in engineering due to their lack of english knowledge.

The resevation system, though, guaranteed them a seat in engineering, didn't help them after that.

Hmm .Pls don't generalise .There are so many people studied in thamizh medium and they not only became Engineers ,but IAS officers ..Even Dr.Abdul kalam studied in Thamizh medium only.

Myself studied in thamizh medium only upto 12th and I didn't struggle anywhere because I studied in Thamizh medium.

If at all any lack of standard in that ,that is because of the poor maintenance and care taken by the Govt for rural area schools ,which failed to give standard education and facilities for students ,not because of Thamizh medium.

[joe]

If at all there is an unfairness in the whole thing it is with the creamy layer eating up the reserved seats and thereby defeating the very purpose of the reservation..

:exactly:

[crajkumar_be]

Thanks for the info Joe.

Maddy, it is all about opening new avenues to sections of the populations who have not been able to make it due to social conditions and even mindsets ingrained over the years.

The yen for higher education grows with exposure. In communities traditionally underexposed to higher education, the tendency to think of "some college education" itself as an achievement has to go. This is where this reservation will make a big difference. Communities which are underexposed to higher education opportunities will really benefit a great deal from this reservation.

It just does not pay to think of it as retribution - that is the language politicians would like us to believe. If at all there is an unfairness in the whole thing it is with the creamy layer eating up the reserved seats and thereby defeating the very purpose of the reservation.

This is why I am thrilled by the judgement directing the government to exclude the creamy layer in the implementation of this reservation.
:thumbsup:

[sriranga]

I have many of my friends who studied with me through reservation quota, they had studied in tamil medium till 12th. then, they cudn't cope with engineering. they failed badly and cudn't find a decent job..

Do you mean ,it is just because they studied in Thamizh medium ? :roll:

Thamizh medium-la padicha students-la avanga bright students, no doubt. But, after 12 years of education in tamil, they struggled in engineering due to their lack of english knowledge.

The resevation system, though, guaranteed them a seat in engineering, didn't help them after that.

Hmm .Pls don't generalise .There are so many people studied in thamizh medium and they not only became Engineers ,but IAS officers ..Even Dr.Abdul kalam studied in Thamizh medium only.

Myself studied in thamizh medium only upto 12th and I didn't struggle anywhere because I studied in Thamizh medium.

If at all any lack of standard in that ,that is because of the poor maintenance and care taken by the Govt for rural area schools ,which failed to give standard education and facilities for students ,not because of Thamizh medium.

Tamizh medium students are at a disadvantage when it comes to engineering education where the medium is english.
your examples are exceptions to the rule. ( You could've done even better if you had studied in english medium.)
if you can't agree on this, i don't think its worth discussing any further.

athathaan, people like Narayamurthy are telling the government to improve standard of primary education.

[Roshan]

We also need to know the % of improvement in the lives of BC/OBC since the quota system was introduced . Anybody has the stats ?

thats not a fair arguement......they have been oppressed for centuries and we expect turnaround in decades :)

Adhu !!


Maddy, it is all about opening new avenues to sections of the populations who have not been able to make it due to social conditions and even mindsets ingrained over the years.

The yen for higher education grows with exposure. In communities traditionally underexposed to higher education, the tendency to think of "some college education" itself as an achievement has to go. This is where this reservation will make a big difference. Communities which are underexposed to higher education opportunities will really benefit a great deal from this reservation.

It just does not pay to think of it as retribution - that is the language politicians would like us to believe. If at all there is an unfairness in the whole thing it is with the creamy layer eating up the reserved seats and thereby defeating the very purpose of the reservation.

This is why I am thrilled by the judgement directing the government to exclude the creamy layer in the implementation of this reservation.

:2thumbsup:

[Roshan]

I have many of my friends who studied with me through reservation quota, they had studied in tamil medium till 12th. then, they cudn't cope with engineering. they failed badly and cudn't find a decent job..

Do you mean ,it is just because they studied in Thamizh medium ? :roll:

Thamizh medium-la padicha students-la avanga bright students, no doubt. But, after 12 years of education in tamil, they struggled in engineering due to their lack of english knowledge.

The resevation system, though, guaranteed them a seat in engineering, didn't help them after that.

Hmm .Pls don't generalise .There are so many people studied in thamizh medium and they not only became Engineers ,but IAS officers ..Even Dr.Abdul kalam studied in Thamizh medium only.

Myself studied in thamizh medium only upto 12th and I didn't struggle anywhere because I studied in Thamizh medium.

If at all any lack of standard in that ,that is because of the poor maintenance and care taken by the Govt for rural area schools ,which failed to give standard education and facilities for students ,not because of Thamizh medium.

Tamizh medium students are at a disadvantage when it comes to engineering education where the medium is english.
your examples are exceptions to the rule. (You could've done even better if you had studied in english medium.)
if you can't agree on this, i don't think its worth discussing any further.

It's your arguments that sound exceptional.

[Roshan]

Would like to know how the 'creamy layer' is defined. Informed hubbers please comment.

இந்த நிலையில் பாலாடை பட்டியலில் குறிப்பிடப்பட்டியிருக்கும் வகுப்பினரைப் பார்ப்போம்.

PAlAdai :roll: Couldn't they find a better term in Thamizh ?

[Billgates]

Would like to know how the 'creamy layer' is defined. Informed hubbers please comment.

இந்த நிலையில் பாலாடை பட்டியலில் குறிப்பிடப்பட்டியிருக்கும் வகுப்பினரைப் பார்ப்போம்.

PAlAdai :roll: Couldn't they find a better term in Thamizh ?

Ada ponga sir enna alu neenga :roll: all are concerned about the definition of creamy layer but you are thinking about its translation :shock:

[MADDY]

PR, this judgement is like decision to build flyovers for pedestrians..........when they dont even have a cycle to ride on a proper road, how is flyover going to help them? how many OBCs and BCs have been given proper primary education? this reservation is going to benefit only the rich "backward" people......maybe 4-5 deserving poor backward students.........

this 27%, wasted by undeserving ppl., is going to hurt the open category big time.....just imagine, IIM is out of reach for even brilliant "forward" students......i mean, what sort of law is this, when deserving students are denied admission....

anyways, i think more than others its "open" category ppl. who should explore avenues.......stop depending completely on this Indian education system.......Bill gates IIMla padichavanum illa, dhirubhai AIIMSla anbumani ramdoss-oda sanda pottavarum illa :lol:

[podalangai]

We also need to know the % of improvement in the lives of BC/OBC since the quota system was introduced . Anybody has the stats ?

That's missing the whole point of reservations. The main effect reservations are capable of achieving is transforming the composition of the middle and professional classes, such that these begin to reflect a broader cross-section of society. This is a desirable end in itself for several reasons.
- Because it gives individual members of the historically oppressed castes hope and an example of what they can achieve. It brings home to them that there is a point to trying to top your class, there is a point to trying to get into a college, because people like you can make something of themselves.
- Because, in a stratified society like India where many people still tend to put their "community" and caste first (the "ivan namma paiyan" attitude), it is critically important that the professional classes represent more than just one interest group and include as broad a section of society as possible.
- And because we simply don't realise what the consequence of having a narrow stratum of society dominating the professional classes are. For example, in Tamilnadu, the quality of healthcare went up significantly once doctors and nurses from backward classes begin filtering into the profession. Why? Because doctors simply didn't understand the euphemisms their patients used to refer to parts of the body that were considered "polluting" or "unclean" - and nobody even realised there was a communication problem until people from the historicaly oppressed classes started becoming doctors.

Yes, reservations have historically been misused by our political masters to create vote banks. Politicians are self-serving creatures, and in the absence of strong checks built into the political process, they'll adopt policies that'll secure them votes and power, even if they're not the best for the country. But that's why we have a Supreme Court. And that's precisely why the Supreme Court has been getting tougher and tougher on the government on the issue of excluding the creamy layer goes, and having clearly defined, transparent criteria for identifying which castes are entitled to reservations. This judgment means that the days when reservations could be a principal tool of vote bank politics are finally coming to an end.

But reservations cannot uplift an entire section of society. In part, it's a question of sheer numbers - in comparison with the enormous size of the population, there simply aren't enough places at good colleges and universities. But more importantly, reservations at the college level don't go far enough, for several reasons:
- The depressed classes disproportionately live in areas where they have no access to education. And even where they have access to schools, they suffer from not having a history of education. Even in Europe, a "bright" child from a poor family by the age of seven does worse in school than a "dull" child from a rich family. The problem's worse by several orders of magnitude in India. As a result, by the time the most disadvantaged sections of society reach the college level, they're already far behind - which means they simply can't use the opportunities that are available to them in the same way that others can.
- Children from the disadvantaged classes disproportionately attend the worst schools, with the worst facilities. And the quality of education suffers hugely as a result. An NGO in Mumbai called Pratham did a nationwide survey of children in municipal schools between the ages of seven and 14 - and found that over half of them couldn't read a simple paragraph in their medium of education. (It began, "A lot of turtles lived by the side of a big lake. Boys would go to the lake and look at the turtles.") What good is reservation going to do these children? Yet it's they who most need it.

Politicians don't care about this - at the end of the day, their kids attend posh schools, and as long as they have their vote banks in order, what happens to municipal schools really doesn't matter. Once again, the Supreme Court is fully aware of this issue. We've already seen them insist that states and the centre formulate a plan to give all children the right to access primary education. The resource implications of this issue are enormous, which is why the Court is going one small step at a time. But the process has begun.

So yes, reservations are critically important, and they can achieve a lot, but they can't achieve everything. Yes, they've been abused, but the process of putting that right has already begun - and more importantly, so has the process of doing the other things we need to do to finally make the legacy of caste-based oppression a thing of the past. Let's take things in context.

[podalangai]

PR, this judgement is like decision to build flyovers for pedestrians..........when they dont even have a cycle to ride on a proper road, how is flyover going to help them? how many OBCs and BCs have been given proper primary education? this reservation is going to benefit only the rich "backward" people......maybe 4-5 deserving poor backward students.........

This again misses the point. An economy with entrenched inequalities simply cannot progress beyond a point. How on earth can India even dream of becoming a knowledge-based economy - something all our governments are fond of repeating - if a huge section of the population doesn't have access to that knowledge simply because of the history of our society? We'll never progress out of a mediaeval setup unles we get rid of the legacy of caste - and reservations are one of the two tools that're absolutely essential to that process.

[kannannn]

[tscii:2a2b091755]MADDY, this should answer some of your questions:
http://www.hindu.com/2008/04/11/stories/2008041156051000.htm

As for primary education, adhu paatu side-la nadakkattum. When situation improves, the reservation system can be reviewed.

And quoting an important part of the judgement

“I nevertheless believe that caste matters will continue to matter as long as we divide society along castelines. Caste-based discrimination remains. Violence between castes occurs. Caste politics rages on. Where casteism is present, the goal of achieving a casteless society must never be forgotten.”
The judgement, or reservation itself is not going to change the ground situation in terms of caste and caste influenced social dynamics. It is only a means of achieving economic and intellectual equality and not social equality.[/tscii:2a2b091755]

[podalangai]

The judgement, or reservation itself is not going to change the ground situation in terms of caste and caste influenced social dynamics. It is only a means of achieving economic and intellectual equality and not social equality.
It will, over time, achieve social equality. Caste-prejudice is actually quite closely tied to traditional occupations. Think about it this way. How many computer programmers from the upper castes would balk at sitting down for lunch at the same table as a programmer who happens to be a Dalit? And how many would balk at sitting down for lunch with a Dalit night-soil worker?

That's precisely why economic and intellectual equality will significantly reduce caste-based social inequality. Not overnight, but in the fullness of time. :)

[Billgates]

The reservation may be workable up to college / University level
but may not be successful if its extended to IIT or IIMs simplay bcaaz of the SUPREMELY TALENTED / BRILLIANT brains that the poor Dalit boy or girl has to encounter with.

Better not to extend beyond College . Its like forcefully pushing someone who might be an average student and sit amongst elite educated class like IIT or IIM .

[Billgates]

To contnue with my previous post, I think beyond a certain level, the individual should compete purely on his own skills / talent . He, she shoudnt depend on quotas. thats unfair.

[MADDY]

[tscii]MADDY, this should answer some of your questions:
http://www.hindu.com/2008/04/11/stories/2008041156051000.htm

nobody can justify the inequality reservations are doing......all are equal but some are more equal :) ..........

i'm not against reservations - i'm for reservations in primary schools, colleges, professional courses but not in higher education and that too in premier instituions......i mean, this is spoon feeding to the hilt........if a person has a proper primary/college education how will he ever be a backward person and how can a backward person who has no primary education can get entrance in premier instituions?? whom this law is serving to is my question??

and what about poor people belonging to fwd communities?? why are we not even thinking abt them?

[kannannn]

economic and intellectual equality will significantly reduce caste-based social inequality. Not overnight, but in the fullness of time. :)
Actually, yes. I agree. In the fullness of time it will. But I am not optimistic about, say even 100 years from now. Even groups that have been traditionally wealthy and influential accept their 'inferiority' and surrender meekly. Could a rich and influential Dalit ever hope to enter the sanctum sanctorum of Guruvayur without causing a scandal?

[wrap07]

To contnue with my previous post, I think beyond a certain level, the individual should compete purely on his own skills / talent . He, she shoudnt depend on quotas. thats unfair.

yes. He should be given the best of facilities and training and he must have exposure to all the information that he may need for his studies. At the end of the day, he should compete and prove his knowledge and at that point , there should be a level playing field

[P_R]

thats not a fair arguement......they have been oppressed for centuries and we expect turnaround in decades Hmm..no. Actually Maddy I seem to disagree at both ends of the spectrum :D

The development and progress of humankind in the last century has been several times that in the previous centuries. So the "time proportionality" is not something to be argued for. I believe that, with exposure to education and opportunities, it is possible for communities to grow significantly even in a couple of generations.
So I am against the arguments for "permanent" reservations.

Reservations exist because of inequality in opportunity. And we want that inequality to fade away isn't it. As of now there is no denying the need for reservations in India. The only way reservations can be meaningful and gradually phased out is when it reaches the intended benificiaries. Which is why creamy-exclusion is IMO the very core of the reservation.I hope the govt doesn't adopt a piecemeal approach.

The trouble is, the SC has not made the exclusion a necessary clause for the implementation. It is only a directive to the government. There is a danger that the cabinet may decide to ignore this and it may not amount to breaking the SC judgement.
Needless to say there is a srong political lobby for not excluding the 'creamy layer' (from CPI,RJD,PMK etc.). :mad:

[Roshan]

thats not a fair arguement......they have been oppressed for centuries and we expect turnaround in decades Hmm..no. Actually Maddy I seem to disagree at both ends of the spectrum :D

The development and progress of humankind in the last century has been several times that in the previous centuries. So the "time proportionality" is not something to be argued for. I believe that, with exposure to education and opportunities, it is possible for communities to grow significantly even in a couple of generations.
So I am against the arguments for "permanent" reservations.

True ! But the expectation of some people - to have a turn around within 2 decades after nearly 3000 years of systematic oppression doesnt seem even remotely logical. I thought that's what Maddy was trying to disagree.

[app_engine]

Tamizh medium students are at a disadvantage when it comes to engineering education where the medium is english.
your examples are exceptions to the rule. ( You could've done even better if you had studied in english medium.)
if you can't agree on this, i don't think its worth discussing any further.

athathaan, people like Narayamurthy are telling the government to improve standard of primary education.

For the 1st semester, to an extent, what you've said is true. However, Thamizh Medium students spring up after that and have TOPPED classes and I have several examples from RECT. In addition, among the rest, majority of those got admitted / excelled had only +2 in English medium but till 10th in Thamizh medium.

If someone is strong in Math & Science, medium change doesn't matter, IMO, at least for engineering.

[P_R]

I am not sure of the number 3000 btw but let's not go down that slippery path. With a well targeted and implemented system India should have reversed the conditions considerably in these 60 years.

PR, this judgement is like decision to build flyovers for pedestrians..........when they dont even have a cycle to ride on a proper road, how is flyover going to help them? how many OBCs and BCs have been given proper primary education? I think Podalangai has answered this point eloquently.

this reservation is going to benefit only the rich "backward" people.........:confused2: eh ! This is exactly what the creamy-layer clause is designed to prevent.

this 27%, wasted by undeserving ppl., is going to hurt the open category big time..... Undeserving !? The arguments for "pure" meritocracy apart, this notion that students securing seats through reservation do not "deserve" them - in that sense that, they will not live up to the standards - is itself objectionable.
It brings home to them that there is a point to trying to top your class, there is a point to trying to get into a college, because people like you can make something of themselves. :exactly:

podalangai, a question for you: Is the SC directive binding on the government or not ? I guess it is not but I am not sure. So is there a risk that the government can conveniently go ahead and implement the reservations without adhering to creamy-layer exclusion ?

[MADDY]

this 27%, wasted by undeserving ppl., is going to hurt the open category big time..... Undeserving !? The arguments for "pure" meritocracy apart, this notion that students securing seats through reservation do not "deserve" them - in that sense that, they will not live up to the standards - is itself objectionable.

ayyo saami, naa appadi sollave illa.....wat i meant was, 100% of those 27% seats are going to be filled by the creamy layer.........they surely are undeserving.......

[Roshan]

I am not sure of the number 3000 btw but let's not go down that slippery path. With a well targeted and implemented system India should have reversed the conditions considerably in these 60 years.

:confused2:

And as Podalai clearly said the reservations are critically important, and they can achieve a lot, but they can't achieve everything. Systems, processes, implementation - ithellAm thAndiya oru vishayam irukku IMO. But I dont want to get into that.

[kannannn]

wat i meant was, 100% of those 27% seats are going to be filled by the creamy layer.........they surely are undeserving.......

MADDY, if you read the judgement, it clearly says, "“Failure to exclude creamy layer would render the quota law unconstitutional. " I can't understand your argument.

[podalangai]

Actually, yes. I agree. In the fullness of time it will. But I am not optimistic about, say even 100 years from now. Even groups that have been traditionally wealthy and influential accept their 'inferiority' and surrender meekly. Could a rich and influential Dalit ever hope to enter the sanctum sanctorum of Guruvayur without causing a scandal?
Possibly not, but social inequality is relative. Not too long ago - within the living memory of a few hubbers, in fact - a Dalit in bits of TN couldn't dream of wearing slippers or covering the upper part of his body, leave alone becoming a programmer. It's now entirely likely that - in TN at least - they can even hope to become priests in temples.

You're right that it'll be a long while before the last vestiges of social inequality are removed, but economic and intellectual progress can make our society a far more equal one within our lifetimes.

[MADDY]

wat i meant was, 100% of those 27% seats are going to be filled by the creamy layer.........they surely are undeserving.......

MADDY, if you read the judgement, it clearly says, "“Failure to exclude creamy layer would render the quota law unconstitutional. " I can't understand your argument.

do u think political parties will let it implement without "tampering" the creamy layer clause?

[podalangai]

Is the SC directive binding on the government or not ? I guess it is not but I am not sure. So is there a risk that the government can conveniently go ahead and implement the reservations without adhering to creamy-layer exclusion ?
My impression is that the SC intended it to be binding, but I haven't had a chance to read the full judgment(s) as yet.

[kannannn]

And as Podalai clearly said the reservations are critically important, and they can achieve a lot, but they can't achieve everything. Systems, processes, implementation - ithellAm thAndiya oru vishayam irukku IMO.
:exactly:

BTW, MADDY, if you are talking about the 'creamy layer' masquerading as 'deserving candidates', we have to remember that any law, any system, has its shortcomings and loopholes. I agree that the thrust should be on making the identification as foolproof as possible. Perhaps, we can address that as the law is implemented.

[kannannn]

Is the SC directive binding on the government or not ? I guess it is not but I am not sure. So is there a risk that the government can conveniently go ahead and implement the reservations without adhering to creamy-layer exclusion ?
My impression is that the SC intended it to be binding, but I haven't had a chance to read the full judgment(s) as yet.

Actually, there are many 'suggestions' with regard to the creamy layer. So, the impression is that not every point is binding. I guess it is still early to discuss the nitty gritties without knowing what the government response is going to be.

This makes it all pretty clear:
http://www.hindu.com/2008/04/11/stories/2008041159961200.htm

[P_R]

Roshan, you are right. What I was trying to say is, we have achieved only a fraction of what ought to have been achieved if the reservation had been properly targeted and implemented. This would have reversed a lot of the damage making the 3000 vs. 60 years seem much less acute than it seems today.

"“Failure to exclude creamy layer would render the quota law unconstitutional. " This is what I was looking for :2thumbsup:

[podalangai]

do u think political parties will let it implement without "tampering" the creamy layer clause?
Adhuku thaane pa nidhimanra iharzhchi ("contempt of court")-ndu edho irukku! :fishgrin:

Besides, given how heated this issue is, you can bet that there'll be a host of people waiting to pounce on the government if their definition of the "creamy layer" doesn't meet the court's criteria. And the government knows that.

[P_R]

I wonder what arguments, even prima-facie, the political parties would have against the exclusion of the creamy layer.

[app_engine]

I think one point is missed by most here in the discussion - this verdict is NOT about reservation for Dalits, but about OBC. So this "suppression for centuries" is not totally applicable. I don't think the social discrimination has been so acute in case of OBCs. If you take that into account, this issue is at least 50% politics and 50% social equality effort (politicians call it "social justice").

That way, if they're going to eliminate the 'creamy layer' with proper criteria, why not also include poor people of ALL castes / creeds in the reservation? That way, other than the justice to those who have been mistreated for centuries with "untouchability" and such crimes, there'll be some justice to children whose parents have not been economically successful (for whatever reason) and there will be no need to maintain too many caste names etc by the govt. Just three categories - SC/ST, poor and affluent.

[app_engine]

I think new caste names keep getting added into OBC list (and it's not static, mostly influenced by politics). Another thing is getting certified into one of such OBC's is just a matter of paying money to the VAO and such people. There will be a lot of inconsistencies in the implementation, given the corrupt status of govt. work force. IMO, there'll be a new "source of revenue" for lot of govt workforce by such policies:-( while the really poor and deserving will continue to lack even primary education.

[podalangai]

I don't think the social discrimination has been so acute in case of OBCs.

OBCs are supposed to be those groups which, whilst not subject to untouchability, were nonetheless subject to significant levels of social oppression. Each state prepares its own list of OBCs according to fairly clear criteria.

If castes that haven't suffered a significant level of disability are included in the OBC list, there'd be a very clear case for a writ petition before the Supreme Court, in my opinion.


If you take that into account, this issue is at least 50% politics and 50% social equality effort (politicians call it "social justice").
It's that former 50% that the Supreme Court is now trying to eliminate.


That way, if they're going to eliminate the 'creamy layer' with proper criteria, why not also include poor people of ALL castes / creeds in the reservation?
Because reservations are not a particularly good tool for fighting poverty - in fact, they're singularly inappropriate. But there are a number of other poverty alleviation schemes in India - such as the PDS, the free school meals scheme, the NREG scheme, and so on - all of which are open to people of all castes and creeds.

[podalangai]

I wonder what arguments, even prima-facie, the political parties would have against the exclusion of the creamy layer.
Well, perhaps the CPI, LJP, PMK, JD(U), RJD, and other political parties who're opposing the exclusion of the creamy layer will share their thoughts with us. I must say, though, that I was somewhat (pleasantly) surprised to see the CPI(M) heartily welcome the exclusion of the creamy layer.

[app_engine]

And I have observed in general, at least during my lifetime and from the TN / Kerala context this:

In the "social status" thing, there had been no great difference between the so-called FC & OBC communities. I've observed derogatory remarks / treatment / atrocities against dalits, though.

Disclaimer - Personally I'm a "not-for-any-caste" person and after at least two generations of so-called inter-caste marriage, proudly refused to fill-in that "column" for my son in the school-app form:-)

[app_engine]

>>Each state prepares its own list of OBCs according to fairly clear criteria.<<

I don't think so, at least in TN context. Can you please elaborate this criteria?

[app_engine]

>>Because reservations are not a particularly good tool for fighting poverty - in fact, they're singularly inappropriate. But there are a number of other poverty alleviation schemes in India - such as the PDS, the free school meals scheme, the NREG scheme, and so on - all of which are open to people of all castes and creeds.<<

I strongly disagree. Is not teaching to fish better than feeding fish?

[podalangai]

>>Each state prepares its own list of OBCs according to fairly clear criteria.<<

I don't think so, at least in TN context. Can you please elaborate this criteria?

TN follows the criteria set out by the Ministry of Welfare in the centre, and identifies the castes within TN that are backward within the meaning of those criteria. There's no one document that contains all the criteria - they're set out in four or five different notifications. I can try and dig out the references (though they're not available online, so they won't be easy to find), but they're broadly based on the 11 criteria set out in the Mandal Commission recommendations, with a few modifications.

[podalangai]

I strongly disagree. Is not teaching to fish better than feeding fish?
Of course it is, but there's no point teaching people to fish if there aren't any fish to be caught, is there? It's for much that reason - which I elaborated on in greater detail in an earlier post in this thread - that reservations simply don't work as a tool to reduce poverty. This isn't my opinion - there have beena number of empirical studies on the point. Thomas Weisskopf's Affirmative Action in the United States and India is a fairly good source, though you'll likely find some of his recommendations a little controversial.

[app_engine]

>>they're broadly based on the 11 criteria set out in the Mandal Commission recommendations, with a few modifications<<

I'm definitely interested in seeing those criteria. Remember, it's not about some who are backward NOW by statistics, but who have been "socially suppressed historically and hence became backward".

[app_engine]

Without getting into emprical studies and all such that satisfies some intellectuals often without seeing "ground reality", I know personally what education has done to my father and his family compared to 100's of his relatives in the same village, ECONOMICALLY.

It's very difficult to convince me in this point that "education won't lead to economical prosperity.". Then why so much of uproar on these reservations?:-) ellAm "future paNam" sir:-))

[podalangai]

[tscii:db1a267ec0]
I'm definitely interested in seeing those criteria. Remember, it's not about some who are backward NOW by statistics, but who have been "socially suppressed historically and hence became backward".

I can give you the Mandal commission criteria:

Social factors (given a weighting of 3)
(i) Castes/classes considered as socially backward by others.
(ii) Castes/classes which mainly depend on manual labour for their livelihood.
(iii) Castes/classes where at least 25 per cent females and 10 per cent males above the state average get married at an age below 17 years in rural areas and at least 10 per cent females and5 per cent males do so in urban areas.
(iv) Castes/classes where participation of females in work is at least 2 per cent above the state average.

Educational factors (given a weighting of 2)
(v) Castes/classes where the number of children in the age group of’ 5-15 years who never attended school is at least 25 per cent above the state average.
(vi) Castes/classes where the rate of student drop-out in the age group of 5-15 years is at least 25 per cent above the state average.
(vii) Castes/classes amongst whom the proportion of matriculates is at least 25 per cent below the state average.

Economic (given a weighting of 1)
(viii) Castes/classes where the average value of family assets is at least 25 per cent below the state average.
(ix) Castes/classes where the number of families living in kuccha houses is at least 25 per cent above the state average.
(x) Castes/classes where the source of drinking water is beyond half a kilometer for more than 50 per cent of the households.
(xi) Castes/classes where the number of households having taken consumption loans is at least 25 per cent above the state average.[/tscii:db1a267ec0]

[podalangai]

It's very difficult to convince me in this point that "education won't lead to economical prosperity.". Then why so much of uproar on these reservations?:-) ellAm "future paNam" sir:-))
Did you read my post earlier in this thread? :)
The issue is not that education won't lead to economic prosperity - it will - but that we can't lift all our fellow countrymen out of poverty by reserving places for them in colleges because, amongst other things (1) there are too many of them and nowhere near enough colleges and (2) the vast majority of them don't even make it anywhere near college level because the schools they attend are so bad.

As a result, reserving places in colleges can never be an effective tool for alleviating poverty in general - obviously, those who benefit from it will be less poor, but it'll not even make a dent in the numbers of the poor. Reservations serve a very different purpose, as I explained some time ago.

[app_engine]

Thanks for getting this info, podalangai!

Well, none of those criteria, IMO, can point to "history of oppression" by some other caste group and hence needs to be "compensated".

However, I agree that all these seem to collect "groups of people" that have "below average" living standards. Considering the accuracy of such statistics in a poorly documented / accounted population like ours, the declaration of any group into this could be suspect - even if I accept that those who collect the info are honest and sincere people.

Having said that, evaluation of a student's 'correct economic status' is the best criteria for reservation, IMO.

Of all those criteria above, I liked the educational factors, and agree that reservations could be a motivation for many from such castes to complete schooling instead of dropping out.

[Roshan]

Podalai :notworthy:

I got many things clarified from your posts. Thanks a ton :)

[app_engine]

>>As a result, reserving places in colleges can never be an effective tool for alleviating poverty in general <<

If we continue to do the reservation based on caste alone, this is true. However, if the schooling is 100% funded by Govt for all, and then have college reservation based on eco-status, won't it serve as an equalizing tool? (IMO, we're not talking about elimination of poverty here and I know not much can be done to eliminate poverty by any human Govt. and that is not the point of discussion here. We're only focussing on why reservation in colleges. If it's not for ensuring some underprivileged to become eligible "to get better jobs and prosper", then what they are for? Are they to make sure of getting some caste votes?:-) )

[joe]

இட ஒதுக்கீடு குறித்த அடிப்படை விடயங்களை அறிந்து கொள்ள விழைவோருக்கு.

இட ஒதுக்கீடு பற்றிய ஒரு வரலாற்று குறிப்பு

http://dharumi.blogspot.com/2006/08/168.html

[joe]

ஏன் வேண்டும் இட ஒதுக்கீடு -கட்டுரைகளின் தொகுப்பு

http://kuzhali.blogspot.com/2007/03/blog-post_30.html

[crazy]

saathigal irukkaathadi paappa ...very interesting :)


jaadhigal illaiyadi paappa :rotfl2: :oops:

[Punnaimaran]

Thank you joe for the valuable links.

[Punnaimaran]

Thanks for getting this info, podalangai!

Well, none of those criteria, IMO, can point to "history of oppression" by some other caste group and hence needs to be "compensated".

However, I agree that all these seem to collect "groups of people" that have "below average" living standards. Considering the accuracy of such statistics in a poorly documented / accounted population like ours, the declaration of any group into this could be suspect - even if I accept that those who collect the info are honest and sincere people.

Having said that, evaluation of a student's 'correct economic status' is the best criteria for reservation, IMO.

Of all those criteria above, I liked the educational factors, and agree that reservations could be a motivation for many from such castes to complete schooling instead of dropping out.

The main purpose of the reservation is not the betterment of the economic status of those people. Instead it is aimed at their participation in the progress of our country, thereby improving the standard of living of our society as a whole.

[Billgates]

Arjun SIngh clarifies that IIMs are included .

[joe]

தமிழக மருத்துவ பட்டமேற்படிப்பு மதிப்பெண் பட்டியல்

இடப்பங்கீட்டினால் "மெரிட்" பாதிக்கப்படுவதாக புலம்பும் "அறிவுஜீவிகளிடம்" இந்த பட்டியலை ஒரு முறை காட்டலாம்.

Full Detail..
http://payanangal.blogspot.com/2008/04/merit-list-of-tamil-nadu-bc-mbc.html

[Billgates]

[tscii:cb176c03f8]http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/IITs_may_relax_cutoffs_to_fill_up_quota_seats/articleshow/2949699.cms

IITs may relax cutoffs to fill up quota seats
14 Apr 2008, 0214 hrs IST,Hemali Chhapia,TNN


Entry barriers to the hallowed Indian Institutes of Technology for reserved category students will be further lowered with the pressure to increase seats, say heads at the IITs.

The three-year-long 27% OBC quota rollout which will also see an increase of 54% in seats for Scheduled Caste and Scheduled Tribes has put the IITs, which are already relaxing entry scores drastically to fill these seats, in a fix.

With seats for general category candidates remaining constant, SC and ST seats will go up by over 50% in the next three years.

The IITs which have already been lowering admission levels for SCs and STs, now feel that with seats for these categories going up, a larger population of students will have to taken in — probably at rock-bottom scores. IIT-Bombay director Ashok Misra, who had also pointed this issue out to the Veerappa Moily Oversight Committee, feels that the issue has been completely overlooked.

"To take in so many reserved category students, admission criteria will have to be relaxed," he said.

Last year, the aggregate score of the last candidate on the rank list in the general category was 206/494; the same scores for the last SC/ST candidates admitted in the IITs stood at 126.

Worse, several reserved category students who scored way below 126 were also taken in and put through a one-year preparatory course in physics, chemistry and maths. JEE chairman (Bombay zone) N Venkatramani pointed out to the gravity of the problem: "IIT-Bombay’s prep class is always full."

Besides, Misra also needs to be taken seriously keeping in view a 1993 report by ex-IIT-Madras director P V Indiresan and ex-IIT-Delhi director N C Nigam which dwelled on the impact of quotas in IITs.

"Nearly 50% of the reserved seats remain vacant as SC/ST students are unable to secure the minimum threshold marks (two-thirds of the last candidate admitted in the general category). Of those admitted, almost 25% are asked to leave due to poor performance," the report read.

A former IIT-Kharagpur director feels that the increase in SC/ST seats is likely to repeat the scenario in the 1980s when the government had forced the IITs to admit students who had scored zeros.

Besides, the Bombay zone also saw OBC registrations go up from 17% last year to 22% for JEE-2008 — 14,278 OBC students took the test this year of the total of 63,533 candidates from the Bombay zone, which also comprises Goa and parts of Gujarat, MP and Rajasthan.

Though the SC/ST issue is weighing on the minds of IIT heads, a recent analysis on income-score conducted by the IITs about the OBC candidates who got into the IITs last year reveals that the first year 9% rollout of quota may not require any relaxation in scores.

Misra said, "Our analysis, based on last year’s data, shows it may not be required to relax even a single mark for the taking in 9% OBC students in the first year. But reservation will ensure that an OBC candidate who was probably not getting the better streams, because of a lower rank, will now be able to do so." [/tscii:cb176c03f8]

[Roshan]

தமிழக மருத்துவ பட்டமேற்படிப்பு மதிப்பெண் பட்டியல்

இடப்பங்கீட்டினால் "மெரிட்" பாதிக்கப்படுவதாக புலம்பும் "அறிவுஜீவிகளிடம்" இந்த பட்டியலை ஒரு முறை காட்டலாம்.

Full Detail..
http://payanangal.blogspot.com/2008/04/merit-list-of-tamil-nadu-bc-mbc.html

Oh Great !! :D Quite useful indeed. Thanks :)

[P_R]

தமிழக மருத்துவ பட்டமேற்படிப்பு மதிப்பெண் பட்டியல்

இடப்பங்கீட்டினால் "மெரிட்" பாதிக்கப்படுவதாக புலம்பும் "அறிவுஜீவிகளிடம்" இந்த பட்டியலை ஒரு முறை காட்டலாம்.

Full Detail..
http://payanangal.blogspot.com/2008/04/merit-list-of-tamil-nadu-bc-mbc.html Actually Joe this can be used for a different argument.That the "reserved" candidates are able to dominate the list will itself be taken as evidence that no reservation is required anymore :-)

Here is what I think is happening. Most of these folks are people from economically-socially advanced classes within their reservation category. i.e. they may be from the creamy layer. Anyway these students will be getting the open competition seats.
I would say that this itself is an example of the importance of reservation. These students' parents /grandparents may have benefited from reservation and that would have provided for the necessary educational-social backing that is reflected in the exemplary performance of ther students here.

To defend the argument that even reserved category students who secure seats through these competitive exams, are meritorious we need to look at the cutoffs.

The score cutoffs for the various categories. I bet you will see that in a competitive exam like this, though the cutoffs are progressively lower than the Open-Category, they will actually be very close. So close that it will be difficult to say that the student who got in through reservation is not meritorious.

Anyone who has written even one exam in his life that a difference of a few points is a sensitive determinant of "merit". The colleges use cutoffs because supply < demand. Period.

So the claims that "reservation" students make risky doctors become engineers who build shaky bridges, is IMO largely prejudice.

[equanimus]

Prabhu Ram,
Supply > demand, you mean. :) Absolutely, and the key to "access" (read understand) reservation systems is to first come out of the notion that the quality of daily jobs work purely based on merit, while it's mostly the contrary. A "job," by design, involves skill acquired by repetition (no, this isn't a grudging reference to the daily drudgery that my own job is), evolves by practice, by using tried and tested formulae, by experience. That's what engineers are made of. I'm not being dismissive of skill at all, but it can clearly be honed. Genius, more often than not, is a pleasurable thing only in its own universe.

Arbitrary theory off the top of my head (with bizarre extrapolations et al., where's the fun otherwise!): God works this way. What is utterly necessary to the world -- building bridges, writing software that people want to use, anyone can do such stuff with enough prodding (education system). What's (to the larger world) completely redundant (number theory, writing, filmmaking etc.), worthless, useless or ridiculous (completing minesweeper intermediate in 30 seconds?), only few can manage. But, most of the rest of the world isn't too keen about their brothers' advances. As Maurice the wrestler noted once: "The perfect mediocrity; no better, no worse."
And, the actual supply is often very less (even if there are far too many "aspirants" who don't quite belong to the "supply" category) in those cases. Not that there's a great demand. Which is why a Math Olympiad exam is often without any time limits, while a CAT exam is all about time.

[P_R]

Supply < Demand. As in Supply of seats < demand for them.
So you have to have a cutoff. As I read in Brilliant Tutorial spooky as describing the JEE as "not a selection procedure, but a rejection procedure". In such an environment I felt the argument that a few points eitherway cannot be thought of as a determinant of "merit".

Agree largely with the points mentioned about "merit" being less relevant than people make it out to be. There are many more arguments "against" meritocracy. Some will sound quite anarchic and can be counterproductive here :P

[P_R]

>digr.>
Liked your "useless things" categorization.

I once had a prof. who was teaching a rather abstract concept which exactly three of us in class - including him - were interested in. It was patently impractical and the earnest man was trying to cook up the most tenuous examples trying to prove its "applicability". I disagreed with the approach as I thought the concept was interesting and that was it.

Last month , from absolutely nowhere, I found myself thinking about the same concept for a particualr problem at work. Some searching, scratching and discussion led to implementing - with some tweaks- the very same thing I had learnt years back. I had half a mind to email that prof to tell him that it was "indeed" applicable. It may have made him happy. But then it would have sounded as if I was also patiently waiting for this "proof of applicability" as a defence for the existence of the theory itself.

As the Irish seer said: "All art is quite useless" :-)

<end digr.<

[equanimus]

Supply < Demand. As in Supply of seats < demand for them.
So you have to have a cutoff.
Oh. My representation obviously was by considering the candidates as "commodities." The supply of potential doctors is more than the demand for doctors in the market. Like the IT industry of India has sufficiently proved to the merit-obsessed great Indian middle-class, if the demand is more, the criteria of merit automatically comes down. As a kid (uh, a twelfth standard kid, that is), I used to worry no end that TN professional entrance exams were being made so easy that "true merit" became indeterminable for all practical purposes. But, then, I realised that was the idea.


Agree largely with the points mentioned about "merit" being less relevant than people make it out to be. There are many more arguments "against" meritocracy. Some will sound quite anarchic and can be counterproductive here :P
I myself can agree only so much with my thoughts. So, "largely" is fine. The idea was to problematise certain notions, not to offer solutions, which, as it must be clear to everyone by now, I'm entirely incapable of.

[P_R]

I myself can agree only so much with my thoughts:lol:

[equanimus]

>digr.>

>digr.>
Liked your "useless things" categorization.

I once had a prof. who was teaching a rather abstract concept which exactly three of us in class - including him - were interested in. It was patently impractical and the earnest man was trying to cook up the most tenuous examples trying to prove its "applicability". I disagreed with the approach as I thought the concept was interesting and that was it.

Quite contrarily, the famous mathematician G. H. Hardy upholds Number Theory as being "pure" (Hitchcock's musings about "pure" cinema come to mind) for the very same reason in his book, A Mathematician's Apology. The unqualified cynic that he was (as is yours truly), he exemplifies Number Theory, the queen of mathematics, (and pure mathematics in general) for its non-applicability. (That it got associated to some applications later on doesn't rob it off its beauty of impracticality, he'd have maintained.) My mentioning Number Theory in that "category" was a humble tribute to the man's lovely vision of non-applicability. :)

<end digr.<

[MADDY]

தமிழக மருத்துவ பட்டமேற்படிப்பு மதிப்பெண் பட்டியல்

இடப்பங்கீட்டினால் "மெரிட்" பாதிக்கப்படுவதாக புலம்பும் "அறிவுஜீவிகளிடம்" இந்த பட்டியலை ஒரு முறை காட்டலாம்.

Full Detail..
http://payanangal.blogspot.com/2008/04/merit-list-of-tamil-nadu-bc-mbc.html

when OC students havent got admission at all - where will they come in :lol: ........JK........good to see they are on the verge on breaking the very need for reservation......:thumbsup:

i would hammer any FC or OC or watever we may call them if they keep depending on this traditional education system.....they need to explore more avenues and newer ones.........CA for example is one area where (if god permits) reservation cannot enter.......in IT too, most of the guys who report to my manager are BSC, BCom guys and hell they are so brilliant and well equipped for the job.....we give all those IIM managers/ IIT techies a hard time (not for their background but for their attitude) :lol:

its easier said than done but it needs to be done :)

[MADDY]

I would say that this itself is an example of the importance of reservation. These students' parents /grandparents may have benefited from reservation and that would have provided for the necessary educational-social backing that is reflected in the exemplary performance of ther students here

if that particular community or family has educated members rite from 3 generations - then y do they still need reservation??? :roll: ....

wonderfully decorated statements and judgements wont bury the harsh realities :D

[sriranga]

தமிழக மருத்துவ பட்டமேற்படிப்பு மதிப்பெண் பட்டியல்

இடப்பங்கீட்டினால் "மெரிட்" பாதிக்கப்படுவதாக புலம்பும் "அறிவுஜீவிகளிடம்" இந்த பட்டியலை ஒரு முறை காட்டலாம்.

Full Detail..
http://payanangal.blogspot.com/2008/04/merit-list-of-tamil-nadu-bc-mbc.html

when OC students havent got admission at all - where will they come in :lol: ........JK........good to see they are on the verge on breaking the very need for reservation......:thumbsup:

i would hammer any FC or OC or watever we may call them if they keep depending on this traditional education system.....they need to explore more avenues and newer ones.........CA for example is one area where (if god permits) reservation cannot enter.......in IT too, most of the guys who report to my manager are BSC, BCom guys and hell they are so brilliant and well equipped for the job.....we give all those IIM managers/ IIT techies a hard time (not for their background but for their attitude) :lol:

its easier said than done but it needs to be done :)

Maddy,
Don't worry the government will bring in quota in private sector too.
Arjun singhs, ramdosses, karunanidhis will be at their throat soon.
Meanwhile, OCs need to find something else.

P.S. AFAIK, for MS/MD, the doctors need to serve 2 years in a shitty town where the government puts you ( which town you serve is again subject to amount of money you can cough up) before they can appear for the exam.

Cut-offs: Candidates selected through OC are definitely better than canditates selected through reserved category even if the cut off is 0.1 or 0.2

I am all for reservation. But, to claim OC candidates aren't any better than candidates coming thru reserved quota is wrong.

then, why certain institutes of excellence like TIFR, BARC are out of quota system?

[app_engine]

This medical college mark sheet is again proof, at least partly, to my statement that the so-called "OBC" didn't suffer historical oppression like Dalits. Had it been so, reservations alone couldn't have brought them up to this level (which one does not notice in good numbers in the case of Dalits, not yet).

Like the references brought by podalangai, the OBC is probably a reflection of "current" status of "some" groups (again based on the best available statistical methods to govt. which I'm so suspicious about and of the opinion that it's more vote bank politics) and not necessarily a reflection of social injustice to them "for 100's of years" i.e. correction of those so-called wrongs of past.

However, if the statiscal methods are really implemented honestly and sincerely, this serves as "some" tool for social equalization, though in my personal opinion, i.e. in the long run, removing the item from school application is a better tool to the 'sAthigaL illaiyadi pApA' world.

[app_engine]

It's ironical that the teacher who teaches "theeNdAmai oru pAvachcheyal, kutRam" and "yAvarum kELir" and "sAdhikaL illaiyadi pAppA" and "ondRE kulam" also asks the student to compulsorily fill in the caste column (failing which the parent has to come to the school to fill-in that column or explain why not). What do we teach the young child? If we divide right from childhood based on caste / creed, when are we to achieve a ondRE kulam society?
(Please note that this doesn't preclude reservations for the underprivileged - just that the criteria should be things like whether the parents had a chance to go to school, economical status of the family, physical abilities of the child etc - all honestly evaluated...well, I'm probably in an Utopian world:-)

[app_engine]

>>Candidates selected through OC are definitely better than canditates selected through reserved category even if the cut off is 0.1 or 0.2<<

Two things, 1. May be in the "marks" sense, but not necessarily in "skills & capabilities" sense (I have 100's of proofs otherwise) 2. OC is not equal to FC (if you look at the numbers, there are a lot of non-FC in OC which keeps increasing over the years as well)

[P_R]

if that particular community or family has educated members rite from 3 generations - then y do they still need reservation??? :roll: .... Why :roll: ? I said the very same thing ! I should be :roll:
wonderfully decorated statements and judgements wont bury the harsh realities :D :roll:
I was only disagreeing with a point like this
Cut-offs: Candidates selected through OC are definitely better than canditates selected through reserved category even if the cut off is 0.1 or 0.2

>digr.> equanimus, I got you the first time. Quite curiously it was the selfsame Prof. who recommended me the book you mention.
One of those I started but didn't finish. I vaguely recall a line that made me think less about writing anything which where I had nothing new to say (came within an ace of stopping Hubbing !). It goes something like:

There is no scorn greater than that of the men who make for the men who explain.....Criticism, is the work of second rate minds

<digr.<

[app_engine]

With the kind of exam system we have in TN, the difference in score between those with great IQ, good IQ, avarage IQ etc cannot be judged at all. And again by the large scale mal-practices in the exams, it's very difficult to tell whether these scores are a real reflection of the capability of the student.

Just to cite my personal experience in +2 exams (and I saw similar thing happening in a place like RECT also), as soon as the question paper is given in the hall, it'll reach a group of experts sitting in a room through the "Windows" who'll later the feed the halls with correct answers. The supervisor is somehow made to condone this. Those who refuse to accept such help can even be ridiculed ( can you imagine a hall supervisor during my +2 exams coming to me and asking whether I need to get help which I angrily refused).

I think the whole cut-off thing is another survival of the fittest and not 'real' status of merit.

Malpractices apart, there are tons of reasons why it cannot be the best judge of one's capabilities in reality.

[sriranga]

With the kind of exam system we have in TN, the difference in score between those with great IQ, good IQ, avarage IQ etc cannot be judged at all. And again by the large scale mal-practices in the exams, it's very difficult to tell whether these scores are a real reflection of the capability of the student.
Though the system is not foolproof, i think the marks are a fair reflection of student's ability.


Just to cite my personal experience in +2 exams (and I saw similar thing happening in a place like RECT also), as soon as the question paper is given in the hall, it'll reach a group of experts sitting in a room through the "Windows" who'll later the feed the halls with correct answers. The supervisor is somehow made to condone this. Those who refuse to accept such help can even be ridiculed ( can you imagine a hall supervisor during my +2 exams coming to me and asking whether I need to get help which I angrily refused).
how can you even call that a school? I wish the so called experts "rot in hell" for teaching the students to cheat.



I think the whole cut-off thing is another survival of the fittest and not 'real' status of merit.

Malpractices apart, there are tons of reasons why it cannot be the best judge of one's capabilities in reality.

true, the system cud've been better, but still its quite fair.

[app_engine]

Digression
>>how can you even call that a school?<<

Forget about the +2 school. (It's not an isolated case, there are a lot, unfortunately, and due to the phenomenal pressure exerted for "adjusting", at one point, my dad refused to do exam supervision anymore).

Now, what do you say for what I've seen in RECT under UofM(adras):-)
(now probably NITT & autonomous)?

I'm not sure what system of evaluation exists today in Engg colleges of TN. It's high time they replace the ejjams with some kind of continuous assessment.
End-digression

[joe]

தமிழக மருத்துவ பட்டமேற்படிப்பு மதிப்பெண் பட்டியல்

இடப்பங்கீட்டினால் "மெரிட்" பாதிக்கப்படுவதாக புலம்பும் "அறிவுஜீவிகளிடம்" இந்த பட்டியலை ஒரு முறை காட்டலாம்.

Full Detail..
http://payanangal.blogspot.com/2008/04/merit-list-of-tamil-nadu-bc-mbc.html

when OC students havent got admission at all - where will they come in :lol:

Maddy,
உங்கள் 'வச்சா குடுமி அடிச்சா மொட்டை' அணுகுமுறைக்கு மற்றுமொரு உதாரணம் .

தமிழகத்தில் அதிகப்பட்ச இட ஒதுக்கீடு 69% தான் .மீதி 31% பொதுவானது . 31 % -க்கு மிகக்குறைவாகவே இருக்கும் OC -க்கு இடமே கொடுக்கவில்லை என்று சொல்லுவது பச்சை பொய். :x

[MADDY]

தமிழக மருத்துவ பட்டமேற்படிப்பு மதிப்பெண் பட்டியல்

இடப்பங்கீட்டினால் "மெரிட்" பாதிக்கப்படுவதாக புலம்பும் "அறிவுஜீவிகளிடம்" இந்த பட்டியலை ஒரு முறை காட்டலாம்.

Full Detail..
http://payanangal.blogspot.com/2008/04/merit-list-of-tamil-nadu-bc-mbc.html

when OC students havent got admission at all - where will they come in :lol:

Maddy,
உங்கள் 'வச்சா குடுமி அடிச்சா மொட்டை' அணுகுமுறைக்கு மற்றுமொரு உதாரணம் .

தமிழகத்தில் அதிகப்பட்ச இட ஒதுக்கீடு 69% தான் .மீதி 31% பொதுவானது . 31 % -க்கு மிகக்குறைவாகவே இருக்கும் OC -க்கு இடமே கொடுக்கவில்லை என்று சொல்லுவது பச்சை பொய். :x

relax i told u i was kiddin.......intelligence, talent are individual and are not based on birth - has always been my opinion......

adhu eppadi joe, 69% "dhaan" reservation-a :lol: ........seri vidunga, apparum, enakku kudumi irukku, motta adicchaaennnu solluveenga.,.......

btw, read in today's papers that almost all allies of UPA are pressing for discarding the creamy layer from the law..........so all of u who were happy and thrilled abt the judgement can take a break.......it will benefit the "benefitted" and ingore the "ignored" again......

[joe]

intelligence, talent are individual and are not based on birth

Good you realise that .

What is happeing is not necessary if this could have understood by generations of some set of people for over thousands of years.

[joe]

btw, read in today's papers that almost all allies of UPA are pressing for discarding the creamy layer from the law..........so all of u who were happy and thrilled abt the judgement can take a break.......it will benefit the "benefitted" and ingore the "ignored" again......

இந்த க்ரீமி லேயர் விஷயத்தை பொறுத்தவரை ,சம்பந்தப் பட்ட பிரிவினரிடமிருந்து எந்த ஆட்சேபனையும் வந்ததாக தெரியவில்லை ..அதற்கு சம்பந்தம் இல்லாதவர்கள் தான் இந்த திடீர் அக்கறையைக் காட்டுகிறார்கள் .

இன்றைக்கு இட ஒதுக்கீட்டின் காரணமாக தாழ்த்தபட்ட பிற்படுத்தப்பட்ட சமுதாயத்திலிருந்து பலர் நல்ல கல்வி கற்று நல்ல வேலைக்கு சென்றிரூக்கிறார்ர்கள் .வசதியாக இருக்கிறார்கள் .ஆனால் இன்றும் இந்த நாட்டில் உள்ள பெரும் முதலாளிகள் , தொழிலதிபர்கள் , வர்த்தக நிறுவனங்களில் முடீவெடுக்கும் அதிகாரத்தில் உள்ளவர்கள் ,வேலைக்கு ஆள் எடுக்கும் நிலையில் உள்ளவர்கள் இவர்களில் 90% சதவீதத்துக்கு மேல் உயர்ஜாதியினர் தான் உள்ளனர். அதனால் தான் உயர்ஜாதியினருக்கு இட ஒதுக்கீட்டினால் பாதிப்பு என்றால்லும் உடனே அவர்கள் மலம் அள்ளவோ ,மீன் பிடிக்கவோ ,ரோடு போடவோ போய் விடவில்லை .. அவர்களில் ஏறக்குறைய எல்லோருக்கும் இதையும் தாண்டி வேலைபெறும் பின்புலமும் .செல்வாக்கும் ,சிபாரிசும் ,குடும்ப சூழ்நிலையூம் உள்ளது . சில பேர் சொல்வது போல இவர்களெல்லாம் உடனே நடுத்தெருவுக்கு வந்து விட்டதாகவும் ,மாடு மேய்க்க தான் போக வேண்டும் என்பதும் மற்றவர்களை முட்டாளாக்குவது.

காலம் காலமாக படிப்பென்றால் என்னவென்று தெரியாத , படிப்பதற்கே அருகதை இல்லையென்று கிடந்ததுகளெல்லாம் இப்போ டிகிரி முடிச்சா போதாதா ,அதுக்கு மேல என்ன வேணும் என்று கேட்பது ,இப்போதும் அரசாங்கம் தவிர்த்த தனியார் ,முதலாளித்துவ ,பொருளாதார உலகில் தாங்கள் கொண்டிருக்கும் உறுதியான கட்டமைப்புக்கும் ,மேலாண்மைக்கும் பங்கம் வந்து விடுமோ என்ற பயம் தான் காரணம் .

[MADDY]

theres nothing to realise here...........if i had the opposite notion , then there is something to realise............i have great examples to quote from generations like bharathiyar, sri raghavendra who have disowned this caste system........its a pretty sad state that the opressed themselves believed in opression..........they have been made to think that way....i agree.....

joe, ur suggestion that upper caste guys have a backdoor entry into good jobs/higher posts is completely false...............its a ridiculous accusation.........also u suggesting that i/others fearing our jobs at risk if this reservation comes into place is also false.............all i meant is, if a person is educated, how can he be backward??? if he is a graduate, then he knows the world and is capable of entering IIM and AIIMS isnt it??? y is it that he needs spoon feeding??

its reality that one section of backward people are opressing the other section!! can u firmly say that all backward caste people are educated in India??? who is eating into their chances??? is it FC or OC now??? no, its their own backward people ........there are so many people in rural remote villages who are not even aware of reservations for them, but all the rich backward people use up this ignorance for their development

so, when the arguements are always aimed at one coommunity, then it tends to become a caste bias than real care for the backward people......

[sriranga]

Digression
>>how can you even call that a school?<<

Forget about the +2 school. (It's not an isolated case, there are a lot, unfortunately, and due to the phenomenal pressure exerted for "adjusting", at one point, my dad refused to do exam supervision anymore).

Now, what do you say for what I've seen in RECT under UofM(adras):-)
(now probably NITT & autonomous)?

I'm not sure what system of evaluation exists today in Engg colleges of TN. It's high time they replace the ejjams with some kind of continuous assessment.
End-digression

what a school teaches its students is more important than a college.
schools mould the kids from scratch and the things you learn in your school stay in you forever. Thats why i was critical of your school.

My own college experience, though everything sucked from teaching in the classroom to food in the canteen, but, this one incident, where during an arear exam everyone in the hall copied from books, the supervisor turned a blind eye only to inform the principal at the end of the exam.
Folks were happy that they would clear the exam with ease and even made fun of others who skipped this exam for other exams.
when the result came everyone had egg on their faces. thanks to our principal, all of them had scored somewhere between 0 and 10. :lol:

[joe]

joe, ur suggestion that upper caste guys have a backdoor entry into good jobs/higher posts is completely false...............its a ridiculous accusation

இல்லை . சுதந்திரத்துக்கு முன்னர் தங்களுக்கு இருந்த கல்வி வாய்ப்புகள் மூலம் வெள்ளையர்களோடு நேரடி தொடர்பும் , வேலை வாய்ப்பும் கொண்டிருந்தவர்கள் உயர் ஜாதியினர் ..அந்த செல்வாக்கையும் நெருகத்தையும் பயன் படுத்தி அவர்கள் கெட்டியாக பிடித்துக்கொண்ட நிறுவனங்களும் அதிகாரங்களும் அதிகம்.

இதே தமிழ் நாட்டில் தனியார் நிறுவனம் ஒன்றில் நேர் முக தேர்வுக்கு சென்றவர்களின் தோளின் மீது கை போட்டு தங்கள் சாதி அடையாளம் இருக்கிறதா என சோதித்து வேலைக்கு முன்னுரிமை கொடுத்த வரலாறெல்லாம் உண்டு.

[MADDY]

joe, ur suggestion that upper caste guys have a backdoor entry into good jobs/higher posts is completely false...............its a ridiculous accusation

இல்லை . சுதந்திரத்துக்கு முன்னர் தங்களுக்கு இருந்த கல்வி வாய்ப்புகள் மூலம் வெள்ளையர்களோடு நேரடி தொடர்பும் , வேலை வாய்ப்பும் கொண்டிருந்தவர்கள் உயர் ஜாதியினர் ..அந்த செல்வாக்கையும் நெருகத்தையும் பயன் படுத்தி அவர்கள் கெட்டியாக பிடித்துக்கொண்ட நிறுவனங்களும் அதிகாரங்களும் அதிகம்.

இதே தமிழ் நாட்டில் தனியார் நிறுவனம் ஒன்றில் நேர் முக தேர்வுக்கு சென்றவர்களின் தோளின் மீது கை போட்டு தங்கள் சாதி அடையாளம் இருக்கிறதா என சோதித்து வேலைக்கு முன்னுரிமை கொடுத்த வரலாறெல்லாம் உண்டு.

u mean, yettappan was a upper caste guy??? u mean to say, bharathiyar who was the symbol of independence struggle had "ul-kuthhu" with british........or u mean to say, none of today's BC's forfathers have never worked for british????

all i can say is u r trying to bash one particular caste/community and generalise all people belonging to that caste as the same..........i think that has been the line of arguement of almost all the pro-reservation people for 60 yrs now and HUB is no different..........

if someone really want something good to happen to the oppressed people, then concentrate on enforcing the reservation rather than criticising one set of people.......

[joe]

Maddy,
பாரதியை இப்போது சொந்தம் கொண்டாடுபவர்கள் ,ஏன் அவரை சாதியிலிருந்து தள்ளி வைத்தார்கள் என்பது எல்லோருக்கும் தெரிந்த விடயம் தான்.

மற்றபடி ,உங்கள் கேள்விக்கு தான் நான் பதிலளித்தேன் .உண்மை கசக்கத்தான் செய்யும் . வேண்டுமென்றால் வழக்கம் போல நான் பேசாமலிருக்கிறேன் . நீங்கள் தொடர்ந்து என்ன வேண்டுமென்றாலும் சொல்லிக் கொள்ளுங்கள் .

நன்றி! :)

[Kalyasi]

joe, ur suggestion that upper caste guys have a backdoor entry into good jobs/higher posts is completely false...............its a ridiculous accusation

இல்லை . சுதந்திரத்துக்கு முன்னர் தங்களுக்கு இருந்த கல்வி வாய்ப்புகள் மூலம் வெள்ளையர்களோடு நேரடி தொடர்பும் , வேலை வாய்ப்பும் கொண்டிருந்தவர்கள் உயர் ஜாதியினர் ..அந்த செல்வாக்கையும் நெருகத்தையும் பயன் படுத்தி அவர்கள் கெட்டியாக பிடித்துக்கொண்ட நிறுவனங்களும் அதிகாரங்களும் அதிகம்.

இதே தமிழ் நாட்டில் தனியார் நிறுவனம் ஒன்றில் நேர் முக தேர்வுக்கு சென்றவர்களின் தோளின் மீது கை போட்டு தங்கள் சாதி அடையாளம் இருக்கிறதா என சோதித்து வேலைக்கு முன்னுரிமை கொடுத்த வரலாறெல்லாம் உண்டு.

u mean, yettappan was a upper caste guy??? u mean to say, bharathiyar who was the symbol of independence struggle had "ul-kuthhu" with british........or u mean to say, none of today's BC's forfathers have never worked for british????

all i can say is u r trying to bash one particular caste/community and generalise all people belonging to that caste as the same..........i think that has been the line of arguement of almost all the pro-reservation people for 60 yrs now and HUB is no different..........

if someone really want something good to happen to the oppressed people, then concentrate on enforcing the reservation rather than criticising one set of people.......

:exactly:

[Punnaimaran]

தமிழக மருத்துவ பட்டமேற்படிப்பு மதிப்பெண் பட்டியல்

இடப்பங்கீட்டினால் "மெரிட்" பாதிக்கப்படுவதாக புலம்பும் "அறிவுஜீவிகளிடம்" இந்த பட்டியலை ஒரு முறை காட்டலாம்.

Full Detail..
http://payanangal.blogspot.com/2008/04/merit-list-of-tamil-nadu-bc-mbc.html

when OC students havent got admission at all - where will they come in :lol: ........JK........good to see they are on the verge on breaking the very need for reservation......:thumbsup:

i would hammer any FC or OC or watever we may call them if they keep depending on this traditional education system.....they need to explore more avenues and newer ones.........CA for example is one area where (if god permits) reservation cannot enter.......in IT too, most of the guys who report to my manager are BSC, BCom guys and hell they are so brilliant and well equipped for the job.....we give all those IIM managers/ IIT techies a hard time (not for their background but for their attitude) :lol:

its easier said than done but it needs to be done :)

Maddy,
Don't worry the government will bring in quota in private sector too.
Arjun singhs, ramdosses, karunanidhis will be at their throat soon.
Meanwhile, OCs need to find something else.

P.S. AFAIK, for MS/MD, the doctors need to serve 2 years in a shitty town where the government puts you ( which town you serve is again subject to amount of money you can cough up) before they can appear for the exam.
Cut-offs: Candidates selected through OC are definitely better than canditates selected through reserved category even if the cut off is 0.1 or 0.2

I am all for reservation. But, to claim OC candidates aren't any better than candidates coming thru reserved quota is wrong.

then, why certain institutes of excellence like TIFR, BARC are out of quota system?

If this is the thinking of our so called 'educated' youth, who had the Govt. subsidy for their studies, then GOD SAVE INDIA !!!

Hope that the reservations will uplift the people from those shitty towns.

Punnaimaran

[joe]

If this is the thinking of our so called 'educated' youth, who had the Govt. subsidy for their studies, then GOD SAVE INDIA !!!

Hope that the reservations will uplift the people from those shitty towns.


Educated (!) youth ? :roll: ,Most of them just educate themselves in what helps to earn money ,no value education invloved.

Many still think that they studied only with their father's own money ,never realise that Govt spending money which also belongs to poor ,uneducated ,unfortunate rural people.

[sriranga]

தமிழக மருத்துவ பட்டமேற்படிப்பு மதிப்பெண் பட்டியல்

இடப்பங்கீட்டினால் "மெரிட்" பாதிக்கப்படுவதாக புலம்பும் "அறிவுஜீவிகளிடம்" இந்த பட்டியலை ஒரு முறை காட்டலாம்.

Full Detail..
http://payanangal.blogspot.com/2008/04/merit-list-of-tamil-nadu-bc-mbc.html

when OC students havent got admission at all - where will they come in :lol: ........JK........good to see they are on the verge on breaking the very need for reservation......:thumbsup:

i would hammer any FC or OC or watever we may call them if they keep depending on this traditional education system.....they need to explore more avenues and newer ones.........CA for example is one area where (if god permits) reservation cannot enter.......in IT too, most of the guys who report to my manager are BSC, BCom guys and hell they are so brilliant and well equipped for the job.....we give all those IIM managers/ IIT techies a hard time (not for their background but for their attitude) :lol:

its easier said than done but it needs to be done :)

Maddy,
Don't worry the government will bring in quota in private sector too.
Arjun singhs, ramdosses, karunanidhis will be at their throat soon.
Meanwhile, OCs need to find something else.

P.S. AFAIK, for MS/MD, the doctors need to serve 2 years in a shitty town where the government puts you ( which town you serve is again subject to amount of money you can cough up) before they can appear for the exam.
Cut-offs: Candidates selected through OC are definitely better than canditates selected through reserved category even if the cut off is 0.1 or 0.2

I am all for reservation. But, to claim OC candidates aren't any better than candidates coming thru reserved quota is wrong.

then, why certain institutes of excellence like TIFR, BARC are out of quota system?

If this is the thinking of our so called 'educated' youth, who had the Govt. subsidy for their studies, then GOD SAVE INDIA !!!

Hope that the reservations will uplift the people from those shitty towns.

Punnaimaran

I meant towns with no basic infrastructure.
example, ramanathapuram - thanni illaaa kaadu.
Its the job of the government to improve the infrastructure.

I think people have the right to choose where they live, if they have used govirment subsidy or not is immaterial.

Also, there is nothing wrong in educating oneself to earn more money, provided its within the law of the land. After all, the more one earns, the more he pays as tax, isn't it?

[joe]

Punnaimaran :lol: Now you got the answer? InimeL pesuveenga ? :(

[Kalyasi]

ithukku ellam ore solution is to give high quality education to all the ppl of TN free of cost... Athukku apparom after 20 years u need to migrate business to other towns of TN as well... Not all og them concentrated in chennai alone... Then all the towns of TN will be having adequate facilities for ppl living there.... lil bit tough but it aint impossible...

[Roshan]

காலம் காலமாக படிப்பென்றால் என்னவென்று தெரியாத , படிப்பதற்கே அருகதை இல்லையென்று கிடந்ததுகளெல்லாம் இப்போ டிகிரி முடிச்சா போதாதா ,அதுக்கு மேல என்ன வேணும் என்று கேட்பது ,இப்போதும் அரசாங்கம் தவிர்த்த தனியார் ,முதலாளித்துவ ,பொருளாதார உலகில் தாங்கள் கொண்டிருக்கும் உறுதியான கட்டமைப்புக்கும் ,மேலாண்மைக்கும் பங்கம் வந்து விடுமோ என்ற பயம் தான் காரணம் .

My thoughts exactly ! Without any doubt I could feel it when I was reading some posts here. manithargaLin adippadai guNam, manappAngu innum mARAtha nilaiyil,ida othukkeedu thEvaiyA illaiyA enbathE kElvigaLukku appARpattathAga thOnRugiRathu enakku.

[joe]

Then all the towns of TN will be having adequate facilities for ppl living there....

சிறு நகரங்களும் ,கிராமங்களும் நல்ல வாழ்க்கைத் தரத்தை பெற வேண்டுமென்பதில் மருத்துவ வசதியும் உள்ளடக்கம் என்பதை மறுக்க மாட்டீர்கள் என நம்புகிறேன் .

மாற்றம் என்பது ஒரு நாளில் வந்து விடாது .மக்களின் வாழ்க்கை தரத்தை நிர்ணயிப்பது சார்ந்த அடிப்படைகளில் ஒன்று மருத்துவ வசதி .

அந்த அடிப்படை பங்களிப்புக்கு கூட , அதே மக்களின் வரிப்பணத்தில் லட்சம் லட்சமாக அரசாங்கம் செலவழித்தூ படிக்க வைக்கும் மருந்துவ மாணவர்கள் இரண்டே வருடங்கள் பணி செய்ய மறுப்பது எந்த விதத்தில் நியாயம் ?

வாழ்க்கைத் தரம் உயர்ந்த இடத்துக்குத் தான் போவேன் என்று சொன்னால் ,எப்போது நம் நாட்டின் பெரும்பான்மையோரின் வாழ்க்கை தரத்தை உயர்த்துவது ?

[Kalyasi]

Then all the towns of TN will be having adequate facilities for ppl living there....

சிறு நகரங்களும் ,கிராமங்களும் நல்ல வாழ்க்கைத் தரத்தை பெற வேண்டுமென்பதில் மருத்துவ வசதியும் உள்ளடக்கம் என்பதை மறுக்க மாட்டீர்கள் என நம்புகிறேன் .

மாற்றம் என்பது ஒரு நாளில் வந்து விடாது .மக்களின் வாழ்க்கை தரத்தை நிர்ணயிப்பது சார்ந்த அடிப்படைகளில் ஒன்று மருத்துவ வசதி .

அந்த அடிப்படை பங்களிப்புக்கு கூட , அதே மக்களின் வரிப்பணத்தில் லட்சம் லட்சமாக அரசாங்கம் செலவழித்தூ படிக்க வைக்கும் மருந்துவ மாணவர்கள் இரண்டே வருடங்கள் பணி செய்ய மறுப்பது எந்த விதத்தில் நியாயம் ?

வாழ்க்கைத் தரம் உயர்ந்த இடத்துக்குத் தான் போவேன் என்று சொன்னால் ,எப்போது நம் நாட்டின் பெரும்பான்மையோரின் வாழ்க்கை தரத்தை உயர்த்துவது ?

Athukku thaan joe anna 20 years nu pottu iruken... oru naal la nadakaathu nu theriyum aana athukku ippoye vethai poda vendum endru thaan solgiren... Uyirai kaakum maruthuvargalukke noi vanthu vidaamal irupatharkum, matra gramam galil vazhbavargalum manidhargal thaan.. avargalukkum adipadai vasathi seithu kodupathu arasin poruppu allava... Tamizhagathin anaithu nagarangalum adipadai vasathiodu irunthu vittal, virakthi enra pechukku edam illamal poividum.... Anaivarum seiyyum thozhilil santhoshamaaga irupaargal...

[MADDY]

காலம் காலமாக படிப்பென்றால் என்னவென்று தெரியாத , படிப்பதற்கே அருகதை இல்லையென்று கிடந்ததுகளெல்லாம் இப்போ டிகிரி முடிச்சா போதாதா ,அதுக்கு மேல என்ன வேணும் என்று கேட்பது ,இப்போதும் அரசாங்கம் தவிர்த்த தனியார் ,முதலாளித்துவ ,பொருளாதார உலகில் தாங்கள் கொண்டிருக்கும் உறுதியான கட்டமைப்புக்கும் ,மேலாண்மைக்கும் பங்கம் வந்து விடுமோ என்ற பயம் தான் காரணம் .

My thoughts exactly ! Without any doubt I could feel it when I was reading some posts here. manithargaLin adippadai guNam, manappAngu innum mARAtha nilaiyil,ida othukkeedu thEvaiyA illaiyA enbathE kElvigaLukku appARpattathAga thOnRugiRathu enakku.

true roshan, manidhargalin adipadai gunam maaruvadhillai...........adhai naanum unardhaen indha nool-in vayilaga.........

[equanimus]

Maddy,
Just as a clarification, my post wasn't in response to your or anybody else's criticism against reservation systems in terms of "fairness." If it boils down to asking how fair the system is to the "quota-less" people, well, I don't have a good answer. I think that much of "unfairness" will be bestowed upon some sect or the other. So, it better be on that sect which is already reasonably well ahead of others overall. I stress on "overall" here, because sweeping all those belonging to a particular sect as "developed" or "forward" is bound to come with its own anomalies. (The key point here is that I'm assuming the existence of caste-based profiling, which is unavoidable for a society that is still coming out of it.)

[About the casteist oppression over the centuries, the way I see it (and, needless to say, I'm open to learning otherwise), it's hard for me to believe that a population of around 3-4% (ok, at worst, it could have been double that in the past) could have been solely responsible for the oppression of the rest of Tamilnadu. But, nevertheless, what's evident is that historically the people who're classified as OC now have had access to all these "facilities" which most others didn't.]

My original point, um, runs in parallel trying to point out why meritocracy by itself is not "truly" fair in these matters -- professional education etc. What Tamilnadu did to professional engineering courses is a good example. The government let in as many private institutions as possible, thus greatly widening the gates for professional courses like engineering, that the whole notion of being exceptionally talented to become an engineer became completely obsolete. As there's an industry which can take all these engineers and is still hungry enough, this was a very good stroke. Not many states did this, and as a result, they don't produce as many engineers as Tamilnadu produces every year. This serves as a great example of how "volatile" the notion of merit is.

There's an alternative explanation to 69% reservation system which I am quite reluctant to bring up here, as it may not seem ethical, but is quite practical. The Tamilnadu goverments' approach to reservation system has been demographical, and that's a major reason for its effectiveness. It's designed in such a way that nobody loses too much in the game. The candidates who fall under OC would, at the maximum, amount to around 12% (well-informed folks may correct me) of the total lot (all the rest have a quota!), and they contest in the open for 31% of seats, as against 100%. This might be termed as "unfair" in a truly fair world where everyone is already "equal," but in a world of palpable inequities, it's still not so bad a deal. This coupled with the way institutions offering professional courses were expanded in TN, made the restrictive deal for the OCs somewhat irrelevant. As per the Indian constitution, more than 50% of seats can't be reserved. This expansion also addressed the issue with 69% reservation -- as per the Indian constitution, reservation can't exceed 50%. Along with this expansion, a proportion of the "newly created" seats (the proportion derived from the overall proportion of OC population in TN) were also allocated to accommodate the "quota-less" people who are denied a seat because of the excess 19% quota, effectively bringing down the actual reservations close to 50%.

>digr.>
Maddy,
As a matter of personal interest, is Saint Raghavendra known to have denounced the caste system? Just curious, as I've not heard about it before.
<end digr.<

[joe]

It's designed in such a way that nobody loses too much in the game. The candidates who fall under OC would, at the maximum, amount to around 12% (well-informed folks may correct me) of the total lot (all the rest have a quota!), and they contest in the open for 31% of seats, as against 100%. This might be termed as "unfair" in a truly fair world where everyone is already "equal," but in a world of palpable inequities, it's still not so bad a deal.

Wel said!

[MADDY]

Joe, pls come up with ur views........ofcourse, there will be arguements over it...........ofcourse, it stuck me badly, when someone equates all our successes/hardowrk to backdoor entry........parava illa, i hope u didnt mean "all".............

i dunno, y reservations are always taken as a tool for revenge or atleast thats how its been depicted as..............i understood the real usefullness of reservations when i was 22.....till that time, i thot reservations were a tool to drive us out of the country...........first of all this notion has to be abolished..........

secondly, arguing against reservation in higher education doesent mean one is entirely against reservation or trying to pretend.........

thirdly, concerns about creamy layer, atleast for me, is a genuine one............everyone are equal before law..........we are simply negating this law with reservations.......so, someday we have to uplift all sections and bring a level ground to stop reservations...........if a part of backward sections only keep getting good benefits, then how are we going to see allround upliftment..............and when are we going to stop reservations and when will India be a true liberal nation.....agreed, there is a selfishness on my side, but there is a podhunalam also involved..........

lastly, i request anti-reservation arguementators to be bit open minded in their outlook on villages, reservation etc,,.,...

[equanimus]

Joe,
This doesn't mean I am endorsing such a reservation scheme. Only that I am able to see the way it works.
Effectively, this scheme amounts to breaking down the population demographically and allocate suitable quotas for all castes except a select few, for whom reasonable number of open seats are made available. In other words, the situation is not that bad because the "quota-less" candidates contesting for the 31% open seats (which is in reality close to 50%, as one should include the seats added to meet the constitutional limit!) are low. In this manner, the demographical approach works quite well, and I wanted to bring in that aspect into this discussion. (On the other hand, if there were a larger proportion of people contesting for the same proportion of open seats, the problem would have been much graver.)

[MADDY]

superb post with statistics equa........but on ground, "247/300 is not enough for admission to colleges but 200/300 is more than enough for admission" still exists....if u have gone thru engg. counselling u'll understand better.........btw, the remaining 31% in TN also includes BC,OBC,SC/ST....i mean they can compete in those seats as well.......but yes, reservations are a must in graduation levels - absolutely no doubts.........

//dig// there are stories on how raghavendra taught shlokas to lowercaste boys, how he accepted mustard seeds from a lower caste person and forced his cooks to cook with that mustard seeds......and ofcourse, he settled in a place that was offered by a muslim king...........but yea, his focus was not reformation but madhwa philosphy......//end dig//

[joe]

i hope u didnt mean "all

Thanks for your understanding ..Let us not take things personally ..My arguements here also not for my personal benefits .. So far I(or my own family) haven't untilsed the reservation .Either I didn't get any scholorship since my parents were Govt .employess.

I agree with you to some extend that there are large no of poor people who don't even aware of what banefits they can get ,but few others are utilising it to full extend ..This inbalance should be reduced by focusing more on least educated people from the ground level.

[sriranga]

superb post with statistics equa........but on ground, "247/300 is not enough for admission to colleges but 200/300 is more than enough for admission" still exists....if u have gone thru engg. counselling u'll understand better.........btw, the remaining 31% in TN also includes BC,OBC,SC/ST....i mean they can compete in those seats as well.......but yes, reservations are a must in graduation levels - absolutely no doubts.........

//dig// there are stories on how raghavendra taught shlokas to lowercaste boys, how he accepted mustard seeds from a lower caste person and forced his cooks to cook with that mustard seeds......and ofcourse, he settled in a place that was offered by a muslim king...........but yea, his focus was not reformation but madhwa philosphy......//end dig//

yeah, also, folks have to sacrifice the best college and opt for the next best to get the course of their choice.
Reservation, though is bit unfair to OC, is the need of the day. Also, creamy layer exclusion has to come in.

[Kalyasi]

i hope u didnt mean "all

Thanks for your understanding ..Let us not take things personally ..My arguements here also not for my personal benefits .. So far I(or my own family) haven't untilsed the reservation .Either I didn't get any scholorship since my parents were Govt .employess.

I agree with you to some extend that there are large no of poor people who don't even aware of what banefits they can get ,but few others are untilising it to full extend ..This inbalance should be reduced by focusing more on least educated people from the ground level.

The only way to avoid all these ignorance is to provide high quality education for all the ppl free of cost.... Why not a govt try this to see whether it clicks or not... Moreover the inflation rates are skyhigh these days... What will a poor auto driver do to get his son/daughter educated....

there has to be some neutralisation... The only way possible is to get everyone educated...

Looking at some of the returns after 20 yrs from many Insurance policies I feel that the inflation rate will be even higher during the coming years...

There must be a way so that all the ppl of India and TN come up in life and are looked upon equally...

[Kalyasi]

superb post with statistics equa........but on ground, "247/300 is not enough for admission to colleges but 200/300 is more than enough for admission" still exists....if u have gone thru engg. counselling u'll understand better.........btw, the remaining 31% in TN also includes BC,OBC,SC/ST....i mean they can compete in those seats as well.......but yes, reservations are a must in graduation levels - absolutely no doubts.........

//dig// there are stories on how raghavendra taught shlokas to lowercaste boys, how he accepted mustard seeds from a lower caste person and forced his cooks to cook with that mustard seeds......and ofcourse, he settled in a place that was offered by a muslim king...........but yea, his focus was not reformation but madhwa philosphy......//end dig//

yeah, also, folks have to sacrifice the best college and opt for the next best to get the course of their choice.
Reservation, though is bit unfair to OC, is the need of the day. Also, creamy layer exclusion has to come in.

Why not give a person quota based admission by checking up with his DAD or MOM's IT returns... So that the govt knows who are all really backward and who are not....

[MADDY]

Why not give a person quota based admission by checking up with his DAD or MOM's IT returns... So that the govt knows who are all really backward and who are not....

for many people , income is equal to tax payed by IT engineers.....avanagalukk ellam edhu tax??? where does a rickshaw man files returns..... :)

other way too, how long will it take for a MLA to file retun saying his income is 10K / month...... :lol2:

[Sanguine Sridhar]

What is the need of reservation, quota or nonsense for engineering or other IT based professional degrees? Ultimately you will be working for an Indian s/w service company where all degrees are equal where B.sc = B.E = M.C.A :lol: Do you think all degree holders from Anna University will work for a product based company or R&D?

[joe]

Kaylasi,
Appreciate your concern ..But Giving free education to all ,it is already in paper officially .But in reality ,poor maitenance and management of rural area Govt.schools makes things worst .

Few things ,Govt alone can't achive everything ,when people are irresponsible ..In many rural side Govt schools ,some teachers or headmasters are irresponsible ,they hardly come to school other than sign in the morning and most of them have their main business (Seetu katturathu ,Vattikku vidurathu) and teaching is side business .

Just few years ago ,when I was studying in college at trichy ,We students went to a village just 30 km away from trichy ..There is a primary school ,but only one teacher (ofcourse ,he is the HM too) ,one common class room .. when he take class 1 ,2 and 3 together , students of 4 and 5 play outside ..then next period He take 4 and 5 together and let 1,2 and 3 to play ..when He takes leave ,then it holiday for school ... Intha ladchanathula thaan irukku ...Think about the opertunity and exposure level of these poor children ..They have to compete with who ? Enna kodumai ithu Iraivaa? :roll:

[equanimus]

Kalyasi,
Reservations are not to address or eradicate economic disparity. There's no way it would even incidentally result in such a Utopian situation.

[MADDY]

Ultimately you will be working for an Indian s/w service company where all degrees are equal where B.sc = B.E = M.C.A :lol:

true, :( i have never reported to a manager who has better qualifications than me :hammer: ofcourse, they have loads of experience :)

[Kalyasi]

Kalyasi,
Reservations are not to address or eradicate economic disparity. There's no way it would even incidentally result in such a Utopian situation.

Yes to me reservations should be given only to eradicate economic disparity... Religion/Caste should never be included in any of the application form... For ppl who cannot afford a particular course Govt should aid them based on the economic background of his/her family...

This is the only way to find the hidden talents available in India...

The point Joe anna said is also valid, But we can't keep saying this and we need to do something abt this...

[Kalyasi]

Ultimately you will be working for an Indian s/w service company where all degrees are equal where B.sc = B.E = M.C.A :lol:

true, :( i have never reported to a manager who has better qualifications than me :hammer: ofcourse, they have loads of experience :)

Ennatha Experience... My manager is a very pathetic guy.. It is difficult for him to read and understand e-mails... He will always ask for my help in replying to e-mails... So everyday I keep saying to me I need to quit....

[sriranga]

Kaylasi,
Appreciate your concern ..But Giving free education to all ,it is already in paper officially .But in reality ,poor maitenance and management of rural area Govt.schools makes things worst .

Few things ,Govt alone can't achive everything ,when people are irresponsible ..In many rural side Govt schools ,some teachers or headmasters are irresponsible ,they hardly come to school other than sign in the morning and most of them have their main business (Seetu katturathu ,Vattikku vidurathu) and teaching is side business .

Just few years ago ,when I was studying in college at trichy ,We students went to a village just 30 km away from trichy ..There is a primary school ,but only one teacher (ofcourse ,he is the HM too) ,one common class room .. when he take class 1 ,2 and 3 together , students of 4 and 5 play outside ..then next period He take 4 and 5 together and let 1,2 and 3 to play ..when He takes leave ,then it holiday for school ... Intha ladchanathula thaan irukku ...Think about the opertunity and exposure level of these poor children ..They have to compete with who ? Enna kodumai ithu Iraivaa? :roll:

so, u mean to say sarva siksha abhiyan is not working?

[joe]

Yes to me reservations should be given only to eradicate economic disparity... Religion/Caste should never be included in any of the application form... For ppl who cannot afford a particular course Govt should aid them based on the economic background of his/her family...

In country like India where proper records are not maintained , anything based on official economic background will be a big joke .. A son of middle class Teacher will not get any benefit ,but a bussinessman or others who really earn 10 times of that of a teacher will decalre the official income as less than the official line and get benefitted.

Moreover , Not just econimical background matters ,but social ,family background also matters .

[joe]

so, u mean to say sarva siksha abhiyan is not working?
:roll: :roll:

[Kalyasi]

Yes to me reservations should be given only to eradicate economic disparity... Religion/Caste should never be included in any of the application form... For ppl who cannot afford a particular course Govt should aid them based on the economic background of his/her family...

In country like India where proper records are not maintained , anything based on official economic background will be a big joke .. A son of middle class Teacher will not get any benefit ,but a bussinessman or others who really earn 10 times of that of a teacher will decalre the official income as less than the official line and get benefitted.

Moreover , Not just econimical background matters ,but social ,family background also matters .

But nowadays it is a must for ppl to submitt their IT returns.. I believe everyone is doing that... a poor man cannot do that accepted.. so for the ppl who depend upon him education at any level should be provided free added they have the talent in them... I dunno whether it is feasible or not.. But it should be made possible somehow... hope India turns out to be a developed country very soon...

[Sanguine Sridhar]

Just few years ago ,when I was studying in college at trichy ,We students went to a village just 30 km away from trichy ..There is a primary school ,but only one teacher (ofcourse ,he is the HM too) ,one common class room .. when he take class 1 ,2 and 3 together , students of 4 and 5 play outside ..then next period He take 4 and 5 together and let 1,2 and 3 to play ..when He takes leave ,then it holiday for school ... Intha ladchanathula thaan irukku ...Think about the opertunity and exposure level of these poor children ..They have to compete with who ? Enna kodumai ithu Iraivaa? :roll:

Joe just a clarification!

They have to compete with who?

Indha irandu samugathilum, pala samugangal olindhu kondu thaane irrukindrana?!

[joe]

But nowadays it is a must for ppl to submitt their IT returns.. I believe everyone is doing that....

:oops: :oops: Bro ,You are in India :roll:

[equanimus]

What is the need of reservation, quota or nonsense for engineering or other IT based professional degrees? Ultimately you will be working for an Indian s/w service company where all degrees are equal where B.sc = B.E = M.C.A :lol: Do you think all degree holders from Anna University will work for a product based company or R&D?
That was exactly my point on merit, Sanguine Sridhar. The notion of merit with respect to professional degrees like engineering is already made sufficiently obsolete. The same can be said of the classification of most of the engineering colleges of Tamilnadu as "best," "good," "decent" etc. What I think is much lacking is the appreciation of skilled labour (!) as compared to that of talent or merit, while, in reality, it's often the former that enables livelihood.

[joe]

Joe just a clarification!

They have to compete with who?

Indha irandu samugathilum, pala samugangal olindhu kondu thaane irrukindrana?!

Sridhar,
I don't know you have been to such villages ..The village I visited defenitely has no forward community ..All(including women) are daily wages and they are either SC/ST or MBC ..At the time(1992) ,The most educated in that village is a 10th std fail.

[Kalyasi]

But nowadays it is a must for ppl to submitt their IT returns.. I believe everyone is doing that....

:oops: :oops: Bro ,You are in India :roll:

Yes!! All Big guns submitt IT returns....May be I am ignorant...

IT Dept shld bring out the real facts... If each and every dept start to function properly I believe everythinf will be streamlined...

[sriranga]

But nowadays it is a must for ppl to submitt their IT returns.. I believe everyone is doing that....

:oops: :oops: Bro ,You are in India :roll:

Yes!! All Big guns submitt IT returns....May be I am ignorant...

IT Dept shld bring out the real facts... If each and every dept start to function properly I believe everythinf will be streamlined...

A few years back, there was IT raid in your Thalai's house, a day later the IT officers were transfered. :oops:

Jai Hind.

[joe]

But nowadays it is a must for ppl to submitt their IT returns.. I believe everyone is doing that....

:oops: :oops: Bro ,You are in India :roll:

Yes!! All Big guns submitt IT returns....May be I am ignorant...

I am confused :roll: You said economical background for reservation must be derived from IT returns ..Now you confessed that Big guns submit IT returns ..Do you mean reservation is only for BIG Guns ?

Bro ,We are from a country ,we don't even have a ID card (not Voters ID card) with unique number and we don't even have records of all population .. You are expecting everything should be decided on IT returns .

Pls come out of Cities .. Real India is not there.

[kannannn]

But Giving free education to all ,it is already in paper officially.
he.. he.. It is not even official on paper. The Right to Education Bill is still to be introduced in parliament. There is still some bickering on who is going to finance the projects. The provisions of the Bill look great on paper though..

[Sanguine Sridhar]

Sridhar,
I don't know you have been to such villages ..The village I visited defenitely has no forward community ..All(including women) are daily wages and they are either SC/ST or MBC ..At the time(1992) ,The most educated in that village is a 10th std fail.

I admit, almost all the villages are like this.
So we can say that in 2008 at least one or more has completed their graduation, then reservation works! If not what is the use of reservation?

[Kalyasi]

Sridhar,
I don't know you have been to such villages ..The village I visited defenitely has no forward community ..All(including women) are daily wages and they are either SC/ST or MBC ..At the time(1992) ,The most educated in that village is a 10th std fail.

I admit, almost all the villages are like this.
So we can say that in 2008 at least one or more has completed their graduation, then reservation works! If not what is the use of reservation?

Gr8 Point... ppl must also show interest in getting themselves educated and imrpoving their lifestyle...

[Kalyasi]

But nowadays it is a must for ppl to submitt their IT returns.. I believe everyone is doing that....

:oops: :oops: Bro ,You are in India :roll:

Yes!! All Big guns submitt IT returns....May be I am ignorant...

IT Dept shld bring out the real facts... If each and every dept start to function properly I believe everythinf will be streamlined...

A few years back, there was IT raid in your Thalai's house, a day later the IT officers were transfered. :oops:

Jai Hind.

Might be coz of the fact that all the records had been maintained properly, the officers returned empty handed and had targetted a wrong person which might have resulted in a punishment so that they target the right person from the next time onwards...

Jai Hind!!!

[Punnaimaran]

Sriranga wrote:]

I meant towns with no basic infrastructure.
example, ramanathapuram - thanni illaaa kaadu.
Its the job of the government to improve the infrastructure.

I think people have the right to choose where they live, if they have used govirment subsidy or not is immaterial.

Also, there is nothing wrong in educating oneself to earn more money, provided its within the law of the land. After all, the more one earns, the more he pays as tax, isn't it?[/quote]

Dear Sriranga,

It is ofcourse the job of the govt. to improve the infrastructure. It expects to improve the facilities using the people like you and me, on whom it had invested previously.

I accept that people have a right to choose where they want to live. But if we are not willing to go to these places, then how do you expect those shitty towns to develop?

We always ask: What the country has done for me, but never what we have done for the country.

[Punnaimaran]

Punnaimaran :lol: Now you got the answer? InimeL pesuveenga ? :(

Yes joe. Got the answer. Reservations only can develop our country.

[Roshan]

But nowadays it is a must for ppl to submitt their IT returns.. I believe everyone is doing that....

:oops: :oops: Bro ,You are in India :roll:

Yes!! All Big guns submitt IT returns....May be I am ignorant...

IT Dept shld bring out the real facts... If each and every dept start to function properly I believe everythinf will be streamlined...

A few years back, there was IT raid in your Thalai's house, a day later the IT officers were transfered. :oops:

Jai Hind.

Might be coz of the fact that all the records had been maintained properly, the officers returned empty handed and had targetted a wrong person which might have resulted in a punishment so that they target the right person from the next time onwards...

Jai Hind!!!

:banghead:

[P_R]

இந்த க்ரீமி லேயர் விஷயத்தை பொறுத்தவரை ,சம்பந்தப் பட்ட பிரிவினரிடமிருந்து எந்த ஆட்சேபனையும் வந்ததாக தெரியவில்லை ..அதற்கு சம்பந்தம் இல்லாதவர்கள் தான் இந்த திடீர் அக்கறையைக் காட்டுகிறார்கள் . Joe, I don't get this. What group do you think should be the one reacting to this ? Politicians yearn for the support from the mighty and wealthy in each caste group. Mighty and wealthy is nothing but "socially and economically" advanced. These are the folks who would be affected by the creamy layer clause. And our politicians - who represent these rich and powerful are doing their job just fine.

Nearly all the partners of the UPA are lining up to demolish this clause. I suspect even many of the opposition parties will not strongly contest this claim - for the very same reasons. In the end, we are going to have this reservation in operation without the creamy layer clause. Things are gravitating in that direction already. I am not sure if it violates the SC decision in letter - but most certainly in spirit.

IMO it clearly exposes the fact that even politicians who wax eloquent about social justice, are only interested in consolidating their power centres and don't give a damn about the people they claim to fight for.

I am just waiting to see what exactly is the argument that these parties will try and make. And if "principled" parties like CPI(M) will put up a semblance of a fight.

[app_engine]

IMO it clearly exposes the fact that even politicians who wax eloquent about social justice, are only interested in consolidating their power centres and don't give a damn about the people they claim to fight for.


What you say is very true. However, I want to repeat what I said earlier (probably in another thread): these politicians don't come from heaven but from among the same people, selected by the same people:-) In democracy, 'மக்கள் எவ்வழியோ, அரசன் அவ்வழி':-)

[P_R]

app_engine, true. Nearly everytime I felt I have squandered my vote by dreaming/expecting too much from my "representatives". But I don't want to digress into the merits/demerits of democracy now.

"Social Justice" is the second most abused term in Indian politics. Now the very parties which built their political platform on these are the ones arguing for the inclusion of the creamy layer. :mad: I guess this will redefine the term "social justice" now.

[app_engine]

அரசியல்வாதிகள் 'சமூக நீதி' என்று சொல்லுவதன் பொருள் உங்களுக்குத்தெரியாவிட்டால், அவர்கள் என்ன செய்வார்கள், பாவம்?:-)

[Roshan]

app_engine, true. Nearly everytime I felt I have squandered my vote by dreaming/expecting too much from my "representatives". But I don't want to digress into the merits/demerits of democracy now.

"Social Justice" is the second most abused term in Indian politics. Now the very parties which built their political platform on these are the ones arguing for the inclusion of the creamy layer. :mad: I guess this will redefine the term "social justice" now.

The bitter truth :(

[ajithfederer]

Ithanaal thaangal koora virumbum karuthu ennavo :huh: Unga superstar mela maasa maasam egapatta reports varardhu engalukkum therium, adhukenna solreenga :huh: (Not that i am believing them). Continue with the thread title and not your unwanted/stupid/baseless comments on ajith 8-)





But nowadays it is a must for ppl to submitt their IT returns.. I believe everyone is doing that....

:oops: :oops: Bro ,You are in India :roll:

Yes!! All Big guns submitt IT returns....May be I am ignorant...

IT Dept shld bring out the real facts... If each and every dept start to function properly I believe everythinf will be streamlined...

A few years back, there was IT raid in your Thalai's house, a day later the IT officers were transfered. :oops:

Jai Hind.

[thamizhvaanan]

Brilliant discussions so far in this thread :clap: (ofcourse, there are some mindless posts as well :lol:) The general consensus seems to be that excluding creamy layer from reservation is a step in the right direction. I wholeosomely agree with that :notworthy: . And I also beleive that reservation in higher studies is uncalled for. A person completing his degree based on quota system has already had enough support from the government to raise above his socio-economic strata. If at all he needs to progress, he should have developed the necessary skills by then to make the progress. Likewise, if the parents have already enjoyed the benefits of quota system, their descendants should be exempted from further benefits. This is with an assumption that the family is already developed enough and does not fall under the socially backward umbrella. They have received enough help from the society. Period.

One of my classmates in Anna univ was a ST, inspite of his very low marks he got into Anna univ, thanks to the quota system. He drives his car to college everyday, speaks very fluent english (did his schooling in SBOA) and a big bandha sorta guy. Later I came to know that both his parents are doctors. Now I can make a guess how they got doctor seat. If his parents have already benefitted and capable of providing very decent schooling (with all additional tuitioning etc.,) to their child, why should he benefit from quota system once again?

Having said that, I have also seen the other end of the spectrum. Anna univ is a great place to see how the quota system works. Another classmate of mine comes from interior Tamil nadu. His father was a carpenter and unfortunately he had expired by the time my friend finished his schooling. He was the lone supporting hand at home, potentially the first graduate of his bloodline. His english is not great, he could barely pay the paltry college fees of 7K per semester (I forgot to say that the other guy had to only pay 3.5K as sem fee since he was from SC/ST, that's somewhere close to his monthly pocket money :roll: ). With all the terrible schooling in his home town and lack of proper tuitioning and mentoring at home, there is no way he could stand up to the well polished city breds in terms of academic performance. But he (and consequently his entire lineage) got a great chance because of quota system. He has a very sharp and practical brain. In 4 years time he started using computers in hostel and mastered them and in the last two years, he was the "go-to" guy for any comp related doubts in the whole hostel (he was a mech engr mind you).

There were several such visible examples of quota system working as I saw it in AU. And also there were some anomalies as I outlined. Hope this verdict gets implemented and such anomalies are leveled out. :)

[Roshan]

Pls excuse the dig..

Thamizh,

I like your signature :) (it interferes with hubbing'num sollalAm :lol: )

[joe]

One of my classmates in Anna univ was a ST, inspite of his very low marks he got into Anna univ, thanks to the quota system.

where can we get the information of Cut off marks for various communitties? Or pls provide the hint approximately .

[sriranga]

Ithanaal thaangal koora virumbum karuthu ennavo :huh: Unga superstar mela maasa maasam egapatta reports varardhu engalukkum therium, adhukenna solreenga :huh: (Not that i am believing them). Continue with the thread title and not your unwanted/stupid/baseless comments on ajith 8-)





But nowadays it is a must for ppl to submitt their IT returns.. I believe everyone is doing that....

:oops: :oops: Bro ,You are in India :roll:

Yes!! All Big guns submitt IT returns....May be I am ignorant...

IT Dept shld bring out the real facts... If each and every dept start to function properly I believe everythinf will be streamlined...

A few years back, there was IT raid in your Thalai's house, a day later the IT officers were transfered. :oops:

Jai Hind.

It is safe to assume All big guns (list includes everyone from suprstar to ultimatestar) don't pay their taxs properly and bully people who try to do their job.
I just mentioned one example where i am sure what had happened cos a friend of mine took part in the raid :wink:. You are entitled to have your own opinion. :wave:

[thamizhvaanan]

Pls excuse the dig..

Thamizh,

I like your signature :) (it interferes with hubbing'num sollalAm :lol: )

:lol: True! Aaga motham hub'la konja naal amaidhiya irundha naan unmailaiye vela senji thaan busy aayitenu ellarum nambiduvaanga pola :fishgrin:

Joe,

true, when I said low marks I meant relatively low marks. I dunno abt the current scenario, but 4 years back, if one had to get admission into Anna univ mech engg,
for OC they shud have atleast 287 to 290 on 300.
for BC, it was around 282+ i think.
for MBC 270+
for SC/ST, I think cut-off is around 250 ( I think ppl with 240+ cut-off have also made it)

It is not a fixed one, depends upon the performance of students as well as the demand of particular course. For eg, much of the FC community students were looking for a degree in ComSci or ECE, whereas ppl from backward classes were more willing to embrace traditional courses like mech engg. As a result, the cut-off for OC students in Com Sci was very high.

[P_R]

TV, nice post.
But there are arguments "for" reservation in higher education as have been discussed in earlier threads.

Joe, the cutoffs are a function of the extent of competition. My impression is they are likely to be very close for medicine, engineering etc. Whereas for much less sought after courses the range can be disconcertingly wide.

Let me recount a personal experience. A few years back, I applied for my masters in a graduate economic program which is part of Anna University. There were a total of 20 seats. 5 of which were reserved for out of state candidates. Out of the remaining seats - after BC/MBC/SC-ST reservation - only 4 seats were left open.

I remember this clearly because a group of us from the same undergraduate class took the exams. Me and a classmate of mine where among this top 4. Another friend - who was an FCcandidate - came in 15th. So it seemed unlikely that he would make the cut. I was feeling bad because I was reasonably sure I was not going to take my seat (as I had got admission elsewhere - but took up this seat as a hedge till the official admission letter came).

But one of the clauses was that all candidates, regardless of the category should obtain a passing score in the exam. If I remember right, this was 35/100. (The top 4 had scores in the late 80s-early 90s and if I remember right, the BC cutoff was in the early-mid 70s). Now what happened is, except for the BC category, no student from the other categories managed to clear the cutoff. And the number of seats for OC went up to 15 straightaway. So my friend made the cut.

This points to a couple of things: That the quality of economics education - while bad enough in Chennai- was deplorable in the smaller towns. (nearly all those who were selected were from Chennai colleges). Secondly, there is a need for reservation at the higher education level - the BC (reserved, that is) students would not have made it otherwise and hopefully students from other categories will make the mark in subsequent years.

[joe]

Glance for Medical cut off in 2006

MMC 2006
-----
OC -294.50
BC -294.00
MBC -293.00
SC -291.00

More details
http://www.hindu.com/2006/06/11/stories/2006061115210800.htm

[joe]

This points to a couple of things: That the quality of economics education - while bad enough in Chennai- was deplorable in the smaller towns. (nearly all those who were selected were from Chennai colleges). Secondly, there is a need for reservation at the higher education level - the BC (reserved, that is) students would not have made it otherwise

completely agreed.

[app_engine]

The word 'creamy' is ridiculed as 'kirumi' in TN assembly:-)

[P_R]

The word 'creamy' is ridiculed as 'kirumi' in TN assembly:-) :lol: Actually makes sense at some level.

[Roshan]

The word 'creamy' is ridiculed as 'kirumi' in TN assembly:-) :lol: Actually makes sense at some level.

Yeah better than 'pAlAdai' .

[joe]

The word 'creamy' is ridiculed as 'kirumi' in TN assembly:-) :lol: Actually makes sense at some level.

Yeah better than 'pAlAdai' .

'PAladai' is used only by that blogger ,not anybody at Assembly ..Even kalainjar mentioned this just as 'Creamy Layer'.

[joe]

Cut -Off Marks details for various courses for Year 2005 ,2006

http://www.hinduonnet.com/2006/06/12/stories/2006061202710300.htm

[thamizhvaanan]

This points to a couple of things: That the quality of economics education - while bad enough in Chennai- was deplorable in the smaller towns. (nearly all those who were selected were from Chennai colleges). Secondly, there is a need for reservation at the higher education level - the BC (reserved, that is) students would not have made it otherwise completely agreed.:roll: May be true. Perhaps I shouldnt have been entirely conclusive. There may be instances where reservation in Higher studies is a need. But personally I feel, during the undergraduate years one should be able to raise his standards (if he is really talented) to be able to face the next league of challenges in the form of higher studies entrance exams.

But you have also touched upon another blatant issue, the vast divide in colleging/schooling standards between urban and rural areas. It is a pity that in our current evaluvation standards is distinctly biased to the amount and quality of training a person receives rather than the quality of person himself. As a result, we find that, in real world academic performance can never be equated with a succesful performance at job. I believe equanimus highlighted this point earlier. But there is no other easy alternative available. Even highly respected entrance exams like IIT-JEE can be conquered with a drudgery training. So they only succeed to an extent in evaluating the real capabilities of a student.

Idha ellam vechu paakum podhu, reservation'oda purpose seems to be really simple. Not to identify the best of each community or anything like that, but it is just to give an oppurtunity to underpreviliged to prove themselves in society. Personally I think, if a person needs the aid of reservation in higher studies also, he has not shown the capability of adapting or growing up to challenges.

[thamizhvaanan]

PR, another doubt. You said quality of education in rural colleges is pathetic and that OBC communities deserve reservation in higher studies as well. Are you suggesting that the entire OBC population is rural based?

[thamizhvaanan]

Cut -Off Marks details for various courses for Year 2005 ,2006

http://www.hinduonnet.com/2006/06/12/stories/2006061202710300.htm

Joe anney, innum edhukku andha cut-off a vechu quote pannitu irukeenga.. adhu oru kuppa system. IMO it doesnt prove anything. It doesnt mean that one community is more intellectual than other. Though it does highlight the amount of facilities/training available to each communities :wink:

[joe]

Cut -Off Marks details for various courses for Year 2005 ,2006

http://www.hinduonnet.com/2006/06/12/stories/2006061202710300.htm

Joe anney, innum edhukku andha cut-off a vechu quote pannitu irukeenga.. adhu oru kuppa system. IMO it doesnt prove anything. It doesnt mean that one community is more intellectual than other. Though it does highlight the amount of facilities/training available to each communities :wink:

மன்னிக்கவும் . அது உங்களுக்காக கொடுக்கப்பட்ட தகவல் அல்ல ..இட ஒதுக்கிட்டினால் ஏதோ தரம் கீழிறங்கி விட்டது போலவும் , 95 சதவீதம் எடுத்தவருக்கு கிடைக்காத வாய்ப்பு ஏதோ 45% எடுத்தவருக்கு கிடைப்பதாகவும் ஒரு மாயையை சிலர் உருவாக்க முயல்கிறார்களே ,அவர்களுக்காக கொடுக்கப்பட்டது ..நீங்கள் ஏற்கனவே அறிந்திருந்தால் பொறுத்துக்கொள்க.

[joe]

PR,
We all agree that rural students who had no opertunity to study in good schools with standrad education and facility will be given priority .

In that case ,I wish inner - quota(within MBC,BC,SC) must be given to students from rural background.

[Roshan]

Cut -Off Marks details for various courses for Year 2005 ,2006

http://www.hinduonnet.com/2006/06/12/stories/2006061202710300.htm

Joe anney, innum edhukku andha cut-off a vechu quote pannitu irukeenga.. adhu oru kuppa system. IMO it doesnt prove anything. It doesnt mean that one community is more intellectual than other. Though it does highlight the amount of facilities/training available to each communities :wink:

மன்னிக்கவும் . அது உங்களுக்காக கொடுக்கப்பட்ட தகவல் அல்ல ..இட ஒதுக்கிட்டினால் ஏதோ தரம் கீழிறங்கி விட்டது போலவும் , 95 சதவீதம் எடுத்தவருக்கு கிடைக்காத வாய்ப்பு ஏதோ 45% எடுத்தவருக்கு கிடைப்பதாகவும் ஒரு மாயையை சிலர் உருவாக்க முயல்கிறார்களே ,அவர்களுக்காக கொடுக்கப்பட்டது ..நீங்கள் ஏற்கனவே அறிந்திருந்தால் பொறுத்துக்கொள்க.

I agree with this. I have seen that kind of 'pulambals' and 'false' propaganda from day 1 in this hub ( specially in the old hub). We need more such information to get a better understanding of the 'real' situation.

[sriranga]

PR,
We all agree that rural students who had no opertunity to study in good schools with standrad education and facility will be given priority .

In that case ,I wish inner - quota(within MBC,BC,SC) must be given to students from rural background.

Thats the group the creamy layer exclusion clause will help.
Thats what all the politicians are trying to stop.

[Punnaimaran]

Cut -Off Marks details for various courses for Year 2005 ,2006

http://www.hinduonnet.com/2006/06/12/stories/2006061202710300.htm

Joe anney, innum edhukku andha cut-off a vechu quote pannitu irukeenga.. adhu oru kuppa system. IMO it doesnt prove anything. It doesnt mean that one community is more intellectual than other. Though it does highlight the amount of facilities/training available to each communities :wink:

மன்னிக்கவும் . அது உங்களுக்காக கொடுக்கப்பட்ட தகவல் அல்ல ..இட ஒதுக்கிட்டினால் ஏதோ தரம் கீழிறங்கி விட்டது போலவும் , 95 சதவீதம் எடுத்தவருக்கு கிடைக்காத வாய்ப்பு ஏதோ 45% எடுத்தவருக்கு கிடைப்பதாகவும் ஒரு மாயையை சிலர் உருவாக்க முயல்கிறார்களே ,அவர்களுக்காக கொடுக்கப்பட்டது ..நீங்கள் ஏற்கனவே அறிந்திருந்தால் பொறுத்துக்கொள்க.

Thanks joe for the stats. People from outside like me believed this 'mAyai' until you came out with the stats. Now I'm getting a clearer picture.

Punnaimaran

[MADDY]

Cut -Off Marks details for various courses for Year 2005 ,2006

http://www.hinduonnet.com/2006/06/12/stories/2006061202710300.htm

Joe anney, innum edhukku andha cut-off a vechu quote pannitu irukeenga.. adhu oru kuppa system. IMO it doesnt prove anything. It doesnt mean that one community is more intellectual than other. Though it does highlight the amount of facilities/training available to each communities :wink:

மன்னிக்கவும் . அது உங்களுக்காக கொடுக்கப்பட்ட தகவல் அல்ல ..இட ஒதுக்கிட்டினால் ஏதோ தரம் கீழிறங்கி விட்டது போலவும் , 95 சதவீதம் எடுத்தவருக்கு கிடைக்காத வாய்ப்பு ஏதோ 45% எடுத்தவருக்கு கிடைப்பதாகவும் ஒரு மாயையை சிலர் உருவாக்க முயல்கிறார்களே ,அவர்களுக்காக கொடுக்கப்பட்டது ..நீங்கள் ஏற்கனவே அறிந்திருந்தால் பொறுத்துக்கொள்க.

I agree with this. I have seen that kind of 'pulambals' and 'false' propaganda from day 1 in this hub ( specially in the old hub). We need more such information to get a better understanding of the 'real' situation.

i have my own personal experience which will clearly show the difference..........but i think, its pretty dangerous to be on "anti-reservation" group here in HUB......theres a grave danger of being stereotyped and generalised.........

ennathha pesi enna panna - law is already there - pongappa poi pulla kuttingala padikka veinga (mudinja) :wave:

[P_R]

PR, another doubt. You said quality of education in rural colleges is pathetic and that OBC communities deserve reservation in higher studies as well. Are you suggesting that the entire OBC population is rural based? No. I was just demonstrating that there was indeed a case for reservation even at the higher education level because graduation did not make all equal. While at it, I wanted to point out a case where graduation cannot imply equality. This is why I pointed out the rural-urban divide. I shouldn't have left it with just that.

To a certain extent caste based reservation does proxy for the rural-urban quality gap. But even beyond that a first generation graduate needs (even in urban centres) may need that extra bit of push to gain exposure in post-graduate institutions. New unopen doors should be shown to those who have had less opportunity thus far.

My dream system would be something like this: If someone gets a reservation for an undergrad degree, then his son/daughter would ineligible for undergrad reservation. However, they would be eligible for postgrad reservation - because they are trying to scale greater heights.

The creamy layer implementation is crucial to this.

Thanks for stats Joe.
I am reminded of a beautiful line from Shashi Tharoor's book "India:Midnight to Millenium".: "Communalism thrives in the absence of specifics"
When discussing communal issues, he says,most of the problems are because people people operate on anecdotal evidence, impressions etc. There is very little supply of (and I must also say, very little demand for) exact precise information. With such 'specific' information, the noise made about 'merit being throttled' etc. should fade.


In that case ,I wish inner - quota(within MBC,BC,SC) must be given to students from rural background. No. I completely disagree with this. This is the similar to the kind of argument that is made by advocates of "permanent reservation".
Reservation policy should be aimed at including newer and newer people into mainstream and bringing about equality of opportunity. It should not be based on a prejudice - and condescencion - that certain groups are bound to underperform and need perpetual assistance.

A reservation for rural students will perpetuate the urban-rural quality divide in education. Every rural area will have an incentive to continue to be backward. I can even see students from urban backgrounds registering with a rural school to write their board exams just so that they can reap the 'backward' benefits. The real rural students who need the help won't benefit. All the problems affecting our current reservation system will affect this one.

The major parties in the UPA have decided to fight the exclusion of the creamy layer :x :curse:

From TN, PMK was saying till now. Yesterday, DMK has also explicitly stated so. Congress & Co. will now pass the law without this exclusion - as if it is something peripheral to be toyed with. :angry2: To top it all, they will have the audacity to claim that it is a victory for social justice :banghead:

[equanimus]

Much to chew on in your post, Prabhu Ram.

As someone who considers himself an ignoramus (yes, apart from being ostentatiously equanimous) by default when it comes to politics, I'm interested to know what's your take on reservations based on economic status. I read an interesting take in an openly right-wing blog. The author says, "if economic criteria were to be the basis for Reservations then we would be locked into Reservations for eternity because there will always be poverty, there will always be economic disparity." Not that I actually disapprove of a "socialistic" approach myself (needless to say, nor do I support it), but, the way I see it, the current Reservations system isn't really meant to achieve economic equality.

A few days ago, my friend was expressing his dissatisfaction on how both anti-reservations and pro-reservations people place themselves in this matter. His point, in a gist was, while pro-reservations people seem to stick to a merit-above-anything-else position, the anti-reservations people seem to have only scant regard for the "creamy layer" clause. I added that, I myself have found many anti-reservations people suggesting that one should adopt an approach better than the existing one, probably based on the economic status of candidates. This alternate viewpoint about having an approach based on economic status is often made, but isn't really seriously supported/rebutted. It's like one of those noble visions that nobody wants to disrupt, but (or, should I say, hence?) neither take seriously!

That also got me thinking as to what Reservations actually mean. A fair reading, I think, would be thus: The system is opening special gates of opportunities to those people who were denied the entry to those gates on some grounds in the past. Inherently, the idea is to only privilege some, not to achieve economic equality.

[thilak4life]

Good posts Podalai..

[Punnaimaran]

Prabhuram,

Nice writeup.

Punnaimaran

[Roshan]

Prabhu :thumbsup:

[joe]

My dream system would be something like this: If someone gets a reservation for an undergrad degree, then his son/daughter would ineligible for undergrad reservation. However, they would be eligible for postgrad reservation - because they are trying to scale greater heights.

Very interesting and balanced view ,PR :thumbsup:

[P_R]

Thanks Joe,Punnaimaran and Roshan.


I'm interested to know what's your take on reservations based on economic status. You've asked for it Am going to go on one of my tangents. Please assume some relevance.

Flemish poetry, Polynesian history and number theory enthusiasts notwithstanding, attaining economic prosperity is why people learn.
So it is only natural that reservation should reach those in need.
However, using it as the lone criteria it is nonsense. As the right wing blogger you quote seems to say, "economic inequality is here to stay". So we will end up making reservations permanent.

Even in the ideal scenario there will be economic inequality. We need to strive to reach equality of opportunity. However, I admit that it is tough - most times near impossible - to separate these two out.

As you rightly mentioned the grounds on which education was denied is crucial here. And again, the point is not retribution. The marked underexposure over generation makes the door-opening challenging. While door-opening, horizons broadening are all very good, education is an immediate means to economic progress. So it is essential to exclude those who have already achieved a fair level of progress.


Inherently, the idea is to only privilege some, not to achieve economic equality. With the creamy layer clause it will be all about achieving economic progress. In socialist vocabulary I guess it would fall under the polite umbrealla 'social mobility' - with its hazardous ambiguity around the direction of mobility ! Well, ambiguity is better than suggesting something like 'being rich' can be good for the conscience.

Just in case there is any lingering doubt, I am not a great fan of the phrase economic equality. To insist on basic standards, that too dynamically improving standards for everyone is something no-one can possibly disagree with. But economic equality is not a synonym for that.

Thanks to the din our politicians have made over the years we have become numb to these differences. In a phrase that marks the philosophical transition of the socialist conscience (!), Deng Xiao Peng once said: " to be rich is glorious !". While the sentiment is universal in its appeal, I don't think any politician will have the guts to say that on stage yet.

while pro-reservations people seem to stick to a merit-above-anything-else position, the anti-reservations people seem to have only scants regard for the "creamy layer" clause. Other way round, isn't it. Regarding the scant respect for the "creamy layer" clause, I share the opinion, anxiety and annoyance.

[equanimus]

while pro-reservations people seem to stick to a merit-above-anything-else position, the anti-reservations people seem to have only scants regard for the "creamy layer" clause. Other way round, isn't it. Regarding the scant respect for the "creamy layer" clause, I share the opinion, anxiety and annoyance.
Yes, I meant the other way round.

The general idea in bringing in this point to the discussion was to put certain things in perspective. One keeps hearing about how education must reach the poor and so on, without examining the actual merits (!) of such a reservation strategy. And, in such cases, it's better to ask the right (no pun intended!) questions, and let someone else elaborate, you see. :)

[Devar Magan]

Glance for Medical cut off in 2006

MMC 2006
-----
OC -294.50
BC -294.00
MBC -293.00
SC -291.00

More details
http://www.hindu.com/2006/06/11/stories/2006061115210800.htm

joe,

MBBS preparation has a lot to do with mugging and vomiting..

engg and MBA entrance exams are more analytical.. here, u can see a big diff between the OC and other categories..

[Devar Magan]

why do we come across lower cutoffs for reserved categories?????

that only shows their backwardness.. infact, it justifies the case of reservation IMHO..

but, 27% is too much for OBCs..

i wud give

5% to STs and 10% each to SCs and OBCs.. the remaining 5% can be PC and other quotas..

IMHO the percentage of reserved seats shudnt exceed 30...

[joe]

Glance for Medical cut off in 2006

MMC 2006
-----
OC -294.50
BC -294.00
MBC -293.00
SC -291.00

More details
http://www.hindu.com/2006/06/11/stories/2006061115210800.htm

joe,

MBBS preparation has a lot to do with mugging and vomiting..

engg and MBA entrance exams are more analytical.. here, u can see a big diff between the OC and other categories..

I have already posted the link for Engg
http://www.hinduonnet.com/2006/06/12/stories/2006061202710300.htm

[Devar Magan]

Glance for Medical cut off in 2006

MMC 2006
-----
OC -294.50
BC -294.00
MBC -293.00
SC -291.00

More details
http://www.hindu.com/2006/06/11/stories/2006061115210800.htm

joe,

MBBS preparation has a lot to do with mugging and vomiting..

engg and MBA entrance exams are more analytical.. here, u can see a big diff between the OC and other categories..

I have already posted the link for Engg
http://www.hinduonnet.com/2006/06/12/stories/2006061202710300.htmagain, this is wrt TN only.. on the national stage like the IITs and the IIMs, its completely different..

[P_R]

For premier institutes like the IITs the competition will be much more intense. So the cutoffs are likely be just as close, if not closer.

Joe, another myth to confront is the pass percentage for the various categories. It is usually claimed that many (implying most) students who make it to institutes like the IITs through reserved seats, struggle to match the standards. This is also a widely distributed theory with hordes of anecdotal 'evidence' but little statistical support.

[joe]

this is wrt TN only.. on the national stage like the IITs and the IIMs, its completely different..

இந்தியாவில் தமிழகம் சமூக நீதியை முன்னெடுத்துச் செல்லும் முதல் மாநிலம் என்று ஒத்துகொண்டதற்க்கு நன்றி!

அதற்கு யார் காரணம் என்று புரிய வேண்டியவர்களுக்கு புரிந்தால் சரி! :)

[Devar Magan]

this is wrt TN only.. on the national stage like the IITs and the IIMs, its completely different..

இந்தியாவில் தமிழகம் சமூக நீதியை முன்னெடுத்துச் செல்லும் முதல் மாநிலம் என்று ஒத்துகொண்டதற்க்கு நன்றி!

அதற்கு யார் காரணம் என்று புரிய வேண்டியவர்களுக்கு புரிந்தால் சரி! :) yes.. i agree with u.. TN had used reservation well so far..

TN students are going to fill the majority of the OBC seats in IITs and IIMs.. i have no doubts on this..

[app_engine]

Gnani article in kumudam on 'kirumi'

http://www.kumudam.com/magazine/Kumudam/2008-05-07/pg15.php

[Devar Magan]

i got a OC call from IIM-I.. now, after the implementation of the OBC quota, they asked me for family income details.. i did give them the real details, since i am not that interested in joining.... i cud have cheated them easily.. now i am in OC waiting list..

i have serious doubts on how they will take the fake non-creamy layer people..

[Punnaimaran]

New Delhi:The Calcutta High Court on Wednesday stayed the implementation of the 27.5 per cent quota for Other Backward Castes in post-graduate courses.


The court was hearing a plea challenging OBC quotas in post-graduate courses by a student who is to appear for an interview for admission to the Indian Institute of Management-Calcutta.


Following the stay all admission procedures in IIM-Calcutta have been put on hold.


The High Court also stayed the interviews slated for Friday for admission of OBC candidates to post-graduate courses in the IIM-Calcutta.


Justice Maharaj Sinha, in an ex-parte interim order, granted the stay on a petition by Sayan Guha, a B-Tech student challenging the Union Human Resource Development Ministry's memorandum.


The interim order stayed till June 9 the operation of the reservation clause of IIM prospectus and also the resolution of office memorandum dated April 20, 2008, passed by the HRD Ministry.


The matter would come up for hearing again on June 9.


IIM-C had scheduled the special interview of OBC students following the HRD memorandum.


Guha's counsels Kishore Dutta and Nilava Bandopadhyay told the court that the office memo and the subsequent reservation clause were in violation of the April 10 Supreme Court order on reservation of OBCs that had set a yardstick for such quotas and defined the creamy layer that would be out of the purview of reservation.


They said while the apex court had directed that graduates would not be considered for reservation, the HRD Ministry had in violation of that passed an office memo to the effect that OBC students would get reservation in post-graduate courses.


No counsel appeared for the HRD Ministry and IIM-C.

[Punnaimaran]

SC quashes Calcutta HC order on IIM admissions
Sat, May 17 03:58 AM

The Supreme Court on Friday quashed the Calcutta High Court's order staying implementation of 27% quota for OBCs in central educational institutions even as the Centre said it was considering filing caveats before various high courts to avoid a repeat of similar instances.

Describing the high court's ex-parte interim order as "strange", the apex court said "no court can sit over its judgement" while lifting the Calcutta High Court's stay. As a result of the Supreme Court order, roadblocks on admission of OBC candidates in post-graduate courses in IIMs and IITs now have been cleared.

"Can Calcutta High Court sit over the order of the Supreme Court," the Bench headed by chief justice KG Balakrishnan and comprising Justices H K Sema and P P Naolekar, said after solicitor general G E Vahanvati questioned the legality of the high court order. "Where is the question of stay when the central educational institutions (reservation in admission) act, 2006 has been upheld," the bench said.

However, it said admissions would be provisional subject to the final outcome in the matter before it as those opposing the government memorandum for implementation of the quota in post-graduate courses have contended that the majority verdict of five-judge bench has set a benchmark that a graduate cannot be considered educationally backward.

The court stayed all proceedings relating to OBC quota that are pending in the High Courts of Delhi, Calcutta and Bombay and issued notices to those petitioners, including Delhi-based Youth for Equality, on the Centre's petition seeking transfer of those matters to the apex court.

The Bench said the concept of "creamy layer" was restricted only to class and community and those falling in the category will be excluded from the benefit of quota. "Graduation cannot be clubbed with creamy layer," justice Balakrishnan said .

[app_engine]

http://kumudam.com/magazine/Kumudam/2008-07-30/pg3.php

Article on how a press person managed to get fake community certificates for Bharathiyar and Kushboo:-(

[app_engine]

http://dailythanthi.com/article.asp?NewsID=442174&disdate=10/2/2008

Uthapuram tense again:-(

[P_R]

Beg to differ here Joe.... even if BC/MBC or SC scores high they will end up in top 31% they will be categorized as OC, thereby permitting more SC/ST/MBC to fill their allotted quota. why is that MBC/SC/ST not have to compete openly (if they are financially and socially sound). Why should financially healthy SC/MBC & SC use reservation for their advantage?

We have discussed this at length earlier. But let me try and elaborate.
Caste based reservations are not about financial well being.
Caste based reservations are not about financial well being.
Caste based reservations are not about financial well being.

It is about reversing generations of denying access to education, where the denial was based on caste.
It is unfortunate that even the ones from the castes that have enjoyed access to education for so long view this as vindictive and fail to see the social purpose of the whole thing.

A highly disproportionate advantage enjoyed by a select few castes has been slightly eroded by reservations. Truly that is all that has happened. Nothing more.
Most of the disappointment and whining that we see around this is largely about this. Would anyone at all contest the fact that the forward castes still occuppy leading positons in most walks of life. I am not even suggesting this is some scheming cornering of plum spots. It is an absolutely natural outcome of generations of sociocultural capital that they have built up and so on. But if one were to hear them complain, one would be misled into believing they are being witchhunted and strangled - which is a highly unfair claim.

From a society which has a long history of perpetuating instrinsic inequities based on birth, we are building one where we want a greater participation in all walks of life from all castes. I repeat: this is NOT about financial well being alone. TN has had one of the (if not the) longest history of reservations in India dating back to the 30s. The results are there to be seen.

No candidate who is in the top 50% in a merit list gets rejected. Whiners either don't understand this or intentionally suppress this information.
This is true even with the 69% reservation in TN (I understood this only recently and can explain if you are interested)

I do have my reservations about the reservation system and its progressively counterproductive static design. But we must remember that, we can afford to talk about reform and tweaks in a state like TN which has seen the benefits percolate over years. Most other states have a long way to go before we can even discuss this.

For instance consider the creamy-layer clause. Other things remaining equal within a caste category it is reasonable to assume the 'creamy layer' can compete better academically. Note: we are not talking about how the Open Competition seats. Only the reserved seats. In which situations will the 'creamy layer' filter truly help the reserved categories enabling true targeting (as its proponents claim is its purpose)? Only in states where there a vast number of able candidates both in creamy and non-creamy layers within a reserved category. Then the clause can prevent the former from taking the seats which the latter ought to get, which is the true purpose of reservation. There may - I can't say this for certainty - be a reasonable case for this in TN based on the across-the-board development we have experienced. But certainly not all over India.

In an underdeveloped state (eg. Chattisgarh) it is quite likely that the only few reserved category candidates who are able to compete at the highest level may be ones in the creamy layer. We are not at a stage of social development where we can afford to exclude them and thereby perpetuate the disproportionate overrepresentation of the already forward caste categories - which is what the system seeks to counter.


We badly badly need a caste census to assess where we stand today and debate and arrive at suitable policy changes.
Quite curiously, you will find that the people who oppose the caste census happen to be people who oppose reservations!

[cm123]

I got 87% and was able to get only very average private engineering college. We have to studay well even with reservation.

[P_R]

Of course. A few years back Joe shared the medical cutoffs for the various categories.
Anyone who has seen them, can clearly see how hollow and prejudiced the 'death of merit' arguments are.

[joe]

இட ஒதுக்கீடு குறித்த அடிப்படை விடயங்களை அறிந்து கொள்ள விழைவோருக்கு.

இட ஒதுக்கீடு பற்றிய ஒரு வரலாற்று குறிப்பு

http://dharumi.blogspot.com/2006/08/168.html

புதியவர்களுக்காக ...

[joe]

ஏன் வேண்டும் இட ஒதுக்கீடு -கட்டுரைகளின் தொகுப்பு

http://kuzhali.blogspot.com/2007/03/blog-post_30.html

புதியவர்களுக்காக ...

[jaiganes]

Of course. A few years back Joe shared the medical cutoffs for the various categories.
Anyone who has seen them, can clearly see how hollow and prejudiced the 'death of merit' arguments are.
Folks railing against 'affirmative action' and creamy layer do so like frogs in a well. they need to come out of their bubble
and look how societies are being rebuilt with strength due to affirmative actions. It sure takes a while and only point worthy in their
arguments is the suggestion to revisit the quotas every 10 years or so based on census data and see if a particular community needs to be
moved closer to the "Open" category (while expanding the 'open' quota space).

[P_R]

Next time someone says 'death of merit' , this should be flung in their faces:
https://mobile.twitter.com/ksnagarajan/status/261515625959141376/photos

[venkkiram]

தமிழகத்தில் உயிரியல், இயற்பியல், வேதியல் பாடங்களில் அதிக மதிப்பெண் பெற்றவர்கள் யார் ?

http://www.payanangal.in/2010/06/blog-post.html

[etpuszula]

wow didnt know that such a thread existed, a newbie to the hub, i must say i'm genuinely surprised to see people arguing both sides of the argument without letting their emotions take over and most importantly without resorting to cliches like 'merit first' and 'every one's equal'. In fact pretty happy to see the 'death of merit' claims squashed with evidence, would be interested to see the engg cut offs which I think would be a li'l different( happy to be corrected if I'm wrong)

but a big :thumbsup: to most of the hubbers who've put forth their arguments in a sane manner. have learnt lots from this thread :)

[Rbee]

Next time someone says 'death of merit' , this should be flung in their faces:
https://mobile.twitter.com/ksnagarajan/status/261515625959141376/photos

Its my long held belief that nothing is tougher than getting an admission to a medical college in TN . i feel vindicated . Pasangala nenaicha paavama irukku. One just cannot afford to make any error.

[lydayaxobia616]

What is your scale to measure the deserving people?

Let us analyze the few past histories and analyze the issues on this topic?
What is the purpose of reservation and why it is required?

Purpose: Spreading the opportunity to all the section of people in an unhealthy competitive situation

Cause:
1. Social issues - Unethical social hierarchy and discrimination being followed for many centuries
2. Elites (power and money) and common people divides and discrimination
3. Suppressed based on Religious identity
4. Rural and Urban divides

A quick analysis based on current situation:
1. Social issues - Once considered as an issue, now people are using this for political opportunity by the elites. Now Indian Politics is driven by social divides and religion divides
2. Elites - Volatile in nature, there is no clear method available for segregating them dynamically
3. Religious - Not required except in Govt jobs
4. Rural and Urban - To be added

Current reservation analysis:
1. SC/ST - There is a exclusion clause devised in the name of Religion to control them migration/converting to other religion for political reasons, this is also an unethical practice in the current SC/ST reservation, which has to be removed
2. OBC - There is a exclusion clause added in the name of 'Creamy Layer' or Elites. There is lot of implementation flaw on identifying the real 'Creamy Layer' or Elites, which has to be removed
3. Religion based reservation - Introduced for two reasons 1. Participation in Govt which called as inclusive growth 2. Political reasons. To be limited to only Govt Administrative Jobs
4. Rural vs Urban - This is very much required for inclusive growth, at least for the education opportunities. Currently, not available

Cap: Overall reservation should be limited to 50%

Long Term Solution: Reservation will cease to exist or make no significance when economics growth rate is higher than 10%