ENGLISH Language.. PREDOMINANT. !!. How.?. Why.?

[Sudhaama]

.
. ENGLISH Language.. PREDOMINANT. !!. How.?. Why.?

We have a lot and lot of Treasure Knowledge for Humanity...

...by analysis... Historically, Culturally, Linguistically, Scientifically... and MORALLY too above all...

...to RETHINK... KNOW... LEARN... REMEMBER... REMIND... RECOGNISE... the Truth behind... and the Lesson imbued...

...towards Meaningful Life... for the Mankind ETERNALLY.

Shall we exchange our Thoughts on the matter.?
.

[app_engine]

One thing that always amazed me is the "name" of this language as used by different people.

In U.S., many choose to call this 'american' (and not English)

In Thamizh, we say "ஆங்கிலம்" ('Angilam', which is not exactly the same as 'English'). And in Hindi, they say 'angrEji'

I'm not sure whether many other languages have this 'special' treatment:-))

[app_engine]

And often I'll have to give a 2 minute explanation to any American I befriend here in Michigan when they ask me "Do you speak 'Indian'?"

[bingleguy]

And often I'll have to give a 2 minute explanation to any American I befriend here in Michigan when they ask me "Do you speak 'Indian'?"

:lol: happens a dozen times ......

but tat shows our versatality too ;-) not for a debate to say - how good or bad it is ;-)

[Pras]

I'm not sure whether many other languages have this 'special' treatment:-))

every langage has this "spcial treatment" as you say ...

in french, we say : anglais
in german, it is : Englisch (prononced ainglish)

etc ...

[pavalamani pragasam]

Yes, only English has so many names!!!

[Pras]

Yes, only English has so many names!!!

why only english ? :?
every language has another name in another language :oops:

[Ramakrishna]

Yes, only English has so many names!!!

why only english ? :?
every language has another name in another language :oops:

Tamil is Tamil in English, Tamil in Tamil, Tamilu in Kannada, tamilu in Telugu as well, Tamil in Malayalam, ada engapponaalum tamil thaanpaa :lol:

[bingleguy]

English ... is PREDOMINANT ..... as i take the meaning as having ascendancy, power, authority, or influence over others !!!

Well ... this is debatable ...... !!!

English is as such Easy ???? :roll: well, why is a Microsoft product preferred amongst all other softwares ... for its simplicity .....

English being just a swarm of 26 alphabets (am not aware of any other language is based on less number of alphabets - may be my ignorance) is considered the easiest medium for expressions .... May be with simple 26 alphabets - we could even create a lot of complex things ;-)

Lets get into the COMPLEXITY of the language ....

[crazy]

Yes, only English has so many names!!!

why only english ? :?
every language has another name in another language :oops:

Tamil is Tamil in English, Tamil in Tamil, Tamilu in Kannada, tamilu in Telugu as well, Tamil in Malayalam, ada engapponaalum tamil thaanpaa :lol:

well its tamilsk :| in norwegian (ok kooda oru "sk" serthu irukkum...but still :roll: )
well as pras said every language has another name ..

in norwegian it goes like
french is fransk
german is tysk
english is engelsk
spanish is spansk
russian is russisk

dif ppl/ nations pronounce the way it seems easier for them
like norwegains adding a "sk" to the end

and english has many names ..simply shows how the language has developed in time of history

english comes from anglo , and hence anglish, angreji :?, aangilam etc :roll:

i dont know...summa edho guess pannuren :ashamed:

[app_engine]

english comes from anglo , and hence anglish, angreji :?, aangilam etc :roll:

i dont know...summa edho guess pannuren :ashamed:

That's quite possible. However, what amazes me is the 'American' name. (In '95, I spent 3 months in CA and everyone used to ask "How come you speak American fluently?")

Well, it can be argued that 'American' is a different language based on the following differences:-) :

English > American
-------- ----------
Colour > Color
Organisation > Organization
Bonnett > Hood:-)
Overtake > Pass:-)

MS-Word's dictionary won't allow English in the spell check in some cases:-)

[Sudhaama]

Yes, only English has so many names!!!

why only english ? :?
every language has another name in another language :oops:

Tamil is Tamil in English, Tamil in Tamil, Tamilu in Kannada, tamilu in Telugu as well, Tamil in Malayalam, ada engapponaalum tamil thaanpaa :lol:

Tamil is TAMIL in English... Tamil is THAMIZH in Tamil and Malayalam... THAMILHU in Kannada...

....and "ARAVAM" in Telugu... [Meaning "NOISE"]

But English is also called by different Names in various Indian Languages...

...according to the convenience of the Common- Folks.

..as applicable to any Language.

[crazy]

well maybe americans didnt want to show that their language as well as the ppl (not all) actually were from england. Simply wished to show that they can survive withouth them (the english) :roll: the independance war (against the british/ english) :roll:

maybe when u say english it may somehow refers to the english ppl, whereas the USA wasnt a country formed by english (irish/ nritish) alone
just to be neutral they started saying american :?


In-depentent, American...patriotic feeling ..whatever. Must ask americans :oops:

[crazy]

Sudhama ayya
when they r writing article about tamil, do they actually write aravam? or is that just a slang or sth? :?

[crazy]

//just noticed, app_e, u moderator //

sorry dig :oops:

[Sudhaama]

.

Sudhama ayya
when they r writing article about tamil, do they actually write aravam? or is that just a slang or sth? :?

ARAVAM for Tamil... Only in Telugu Spoken Language.... even by Elites.
.

[crazy]

oh nandri :)

spoken lang, elites aravam hm......... :roll:

[NOV]

english is called aangilam in tamil becos of its anglo saxon roots. similarly for many other languages.

you cant speak british, american on indian as these are nations/nationalities. :roll:

english is the common language of americans who comprise of people from all parts of the world. why english? becos of colonisation.
later other nationalities were assimiliated with english being the common thread.

you have many variances of english...

Queens english (also british english)
american english
irish english
scottish english
indian english
singapore english (singlish)
malaysian english (manglish)
and so forth :lol:

[pavalamani pragasam]

butler English
'peter' viduRathu

[sarna_blr]

Tamil is TAMIL in English... Tamil is THAMIZH in Tamil and Malayalam... THAMILHU in Kannada...

....and "ARAVAM" in Telugu... [Meaning "NOISE"]

But English is also called by different Names in various Indian Languages...

...according to the convenience of the Common- Folks.

..as applicable to any Language.

THAMILHU... in kannada... its wrong...

தமிளு/ழு in kannada is correct...

In kannada they have ಲ(la) for ல... ಳ(La) for both ள and ழ

PS.. r u able to read kannada font...

[Billgates]

Is it that English is so popular today bcaz of colonization ?

I dont see any strong alternative to English now.

French is popular in some African countries.

Portugese is ofcourse widely spoken but not comparable with English

Spanish yes,

Nothing to beat English

[Sudhaama]

Tamil is TAMIL in English... Tamil is THAMIZH in Tamil and Malayalam... THAMILHU in Kannada...

....and "ARAVAM" in Telugu... [Meaning "NOISE"]

But English is also called by different Names in various Indian Languages...

...according to the convenience of the Common- Folks.

..as applicable to any Language.

THAMILHU... in kannada... its wrong...

தமிளு/ழு in kannada is correct...

In kannada they have ಲ(la) for ல... ಳ(La) for both ள and ழ

PS.. r u able to read kannada font...

Dear "sarna_bir"

Glad to see your reply.

Kannada is one of the Great Languages of India.

Since it will be complicated to teach the Children on Two different pronunciations... for One and the same letter...

...every Letter of any and all Languages has only one Specific pronunciation.

Kannada and Malayalam are the two very close and proximate Languages to Tamil.

We can find from "HALHAE KANNADA" (Classical / Old / Ancient / Traditional Kannada)...

..that there was an EXCLUSIVE Kannada Script Letter for ZHA phonetic too....

..similar to Tamil and Malayalam.

But subsequently that ZHA letter was removed from the Kannada Dictionary and usage...

...since the Kannada Scholars of Yester era felt it unnecessary for Kannada...

..as was the case of the letter "VA" in Bengali.
.

[sarna_blr]

Dear "sarna_bir"

Glad to see your reply.

Kannada is one of the Great Languages of India.

Since it will be complicated to teach the Children on Two different pronunciations... for One and the same letter...

...every Letter of any and all Languages has only one Specific pronunciation.

Kannada and Malayalam are the two very close and proximate Languages to Tamil.

We can find from "HALHAE KANNADA" (Classical / Old / Ancient / Traditional Kannada)...

..that there was an EXCLUSIVE Kannada Script Letter for ZHA phonetic too....

..similar to Tamil and Malayalam.

But subsequently that ZHA letter was removed from the Kannada Dictionary and usage...

...since the Kannada Scholars of Yester era felt it unnecessary for Kannada...

..as was the case of the letter "VA" in Bengali.
.

ಳ(ழ) is there... but this ள is not there.... not only kannada .. telugu is also similar...

but malayaalam is having 3 la's(ல, ள, ழ)....malayaalam is having the scripts of Tamizh and Sanskrit... :) ...but telugu and kannada have two la's...
Malayaalam is having 3 na's(ந,ன,ண).....but telugu and kannada have two na's...

PS... i know to read the 4 south indian languages...the above opinion was based on my knowledge over these 4 languages...

[Bipolar]

I think that European languages (English, French and Spanish, but English is most widely used, no doubt) at first became widely spoken because of exploration, trade and colonisation of the rest of the world by European powers such as Britain, France and Spain. Later on this continued because these languages also adapted and grew to suit the local populations wherever the languages were spoken.

But I wonder - the way Sudhaama asks the question makes me think, do you have a problem with English being so "dominant"? I don't have any problems with it, I think that English is a relatively easy-to-learn, logical language, and most important, most scientific/technological information is published in English. Can you name one single publication in any Indian language of the same standard as Scientific American, The Economist, etc.? Unfortunately, I don't read any Tamil magazines or newspapers, so I have no idea if they publish scientific/technological articles. But I think, as a medium of communication, English is effective, and it is widely used for a good reason. For political reasons, English/Hindi and other languages have been opposed in Tamil Nadu, and we have been the losers.

Being multi-lingual (i.e. speaking more than one language) has been shown to be beneficial.

[Sudhaama]

.
. How English became PREDOMINANT.?


Hi everyone,

Good thread to start. I'd like to solicit help from those in the know, here.

Would anyone know of a particular website on the topic of "how the Brits. spread their language to the rest of the world." Of course, we all know it was through colonisation. But of particular interest is the ramification of how they stamped their language to the point of usurping the native languages, to the point of becoming the World's No 1 lingua franca. A feat which other colonisers hadn't been quite as successful. Or am I wrong?

I'd welcome your 2 sen's worth on this topic.


No other colonising country succeeded so extensively for so long. So English prevailed out of sheer necessity for communication. A basic superiority trait also must have helped to overpower its undeerlings which we were shamelessly for centuries, looking upon the white man as a saviour, redeemer, wellwisher & what not. We lapped up the language out of compulsion & admiration!!! :oops: Now it is an undoubted tool of convenience & facility.


Truly a complex language which breaks its own grammar rules!Without a context, the language gives a whole new meaning!! Despite all hardship not to mention the tag of the coloniser, we do indeed lap it up. Without the sanctification of having learned and mastered the language, one is not even considered as being genuinely educated!

Wouldn't you all agree?


Shamefully, yes!



Without the sanctification of having learned and mastered the language, one is not even considered as being genuinely educated!

Wouldn't you all agree?

I feel the scenario is DEFINITELY changing.
People have started treating english AS JUST MEANS OF COMMUNICATION. Gone are the days when ENGLISH was synonymously associated with KNOWLEDGE.

Another welcoming change is PEOPLE ARE TAKING PRIDE in talking their own tongue.

The change is mildly visible, but definitely getting bigger and making a marking effect.
.

[Lambretta]

Tamil is Tamil in English, Tamil in Tamil, Tamilu in Kannada, tamilu in Telugu as well, Tamil in Malayalam, ada engapponaalum tamil thaanpaa :lol:
Actually I think its pronounced tamiLam in telugu.....altho colloquially its known more commonly as aravu/aravam, which is actually a rather derogatory name for it! :oops:

[P_R]

The global dominance is a thing of the last few centuries and the language has also changed a bit over time - not significantly though.
Even during Shakespeare's times English was yet to conquer the British Isles. :-) It was spoken in England and in some parts of Scotland ! In earlier times the existing language in England was restrictively provincial. It was apparently impossible for people a few miles away in England to understand one another.

Some of the appeal stems from things like:

1) the lack of gender inanimate objects (eg. Spanish el/la) the absence of articles in many situations (table and chair, not the table and the chair). This affects the verb form too in many languages .
2) largely straighforward rules of construction (eg. add an s and it becomes plural....of course you have exceptions like 'children' which are from remaining German influences.
3) the ease of second person addressing . Just "you" (as opposed to tu/vouz....நீ/நீங்க). I heared Japanese has half a dozen forms

These are some of the reasons why I feel it is easily picked up.
And of course the 26 letter alphabet (an advantage it shares with many other European languages.

Of course, things like tense constructions and participles sometimes stump even long time speakers (dived or dove ?). Pronunciation - though it lacks the clarity of German or Tamil's what-you-read-is-how-you-speak, is relatively easier compared to other forbidding European languages with their consonant clusters.

[app_engine]

>>Tamil's what-you-read-is-how-you-speak<<

Not always true. We give different pronunciations to consonants, though we follow vowels exactly as they are written. Malayalam is perhaps the closest in that aspect with some rare exceptions (exceptions mainly when Thamizh words such as மகன் are used in Malayalam, they take Thamizh'like pronunciation rules. There was this Bengali engineer who came to Palakkad for training when the Mohanlal movie 'rAjAvinde mahan' got released. He used to call it 'rAjAvinde makkan').

[app_engine]

>>Pronunciation .... is relatively easier <<

Prabhu Ram, I think you're kidding:-) This is one area where English is hopelessly difficult and that's the reason for many kinds of misunderstandings between people speaking the "same" language:-) and also probably the reason for "Tamilian English", "Malayali English", ''North-Indian English" etc.:-)

[P_R]

>>Pronunciation .... is relatively easier <<

Prabhu Ram, I think you're kidding:-) This is one area where English is hopelessly difficult and that's the reason for many kinds of misunderstandings between people speaking the "same" language:-) and also probably the reason for "Tamilian English", "Malayali English", ''North-Indian English" etc.:-)

Each one is likely to have an accent.
What I meant by pronunication being relatively easy is the fact that there is less ambiguity. Think of French, English is a darling in comparison.

[kannannn]

>>Tamil's what-you-read-is-how-you-speak<<

Not always true. We give different pronunciations to consonants, though we follow vowels exactly as they are written.
Very much agree!! One of the reasons my wife has given up all hopes of learning the language after several attempts (and I, of trying to teach the language).


As an aside, would we be learning French, had they managed to subdue the English at the Seven Years War? IMO, English is dominant for the simple reason that the US is a super power.

[app_engine]

Well, probably French is more difficult. That does not make English pronunciation non-ambiguous. Each word has to be learnt the way it should be pronounced as there are any number of exceptions to rules. And same word can be pronounced two different ways and both are correct and can have different meanings:-(

[app_engine]

This page has a nice collection:
http://jonv.flystrip.com/heteronym/heteronym.htm

See this too:
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~cellis/heteronym.html

[P_R]

Quite right.

My failed affair with French may also be because it was after nearly 15 years of familiarity with English. Perhaps I should eat that statement about pronunciation. Won't argue further about English being pronunciation less vague.

Similarly my mother tongue (Tamil) too doesn't have gender for inanimate objects. So it seemed natural to me that these things ought not to have gender. Hence my diffidence about conversing in Hindi till date.

[bingleguy]

Well, probably French is more difficult. That does not make English pronunciation non-ambiguous. Each word has to be learnt the way it should be pronounced as there are any number of exceptions to rules. And same word can be pronounced two different ways and both are correct and can have different meanings:-(

App_Engine ... can u quote some examples for this .....

[P_R]

See the hetronymn link given above by app_engine

An example from that page

August
AUgust- month
auGUST- important, eminent

[app_engine]

bingleguy, please jump into any of the two links I posted above:-)

As a sample:

Wind - விண்ட் - காற்று
Wind - வைண்ட் - சுற்று

[app_engine]

>>Hence my diffidence about conversing in Hindi till date.<<

Exactly! I'm now torturing some northies with my Hindi attempts:-)

[bingleguy]

bingleguy, please jump into any of the two links I posted above:-)

As a sample:

Wind - விண்ட் - காற்று
Wind - வைண்ட் - சுற்று

oh thanks app :-) i didnt realize that the links had them :-)
ys ... your quote was absolutely rite .... nothing was striking me at that time ....

[app_engine]

>>Similarly my mother tongue (Tamil) too doesn't have gender for inanimate objects.<<

This gender thing is again interesting, as it is treated in different ways in every language.

In Thamizh, like you said, only 'அது / அவை' (it / they) don't have gender for their actions (i.e. verb forms), while 'அவன், அவள்' (he /she) have.

e.g. அவன் ஓடினான், அவள் ஓடினாள், அது ஓடியது.

In English / Malayalam, there's no gender for actions (whether it is he / she / it)

e.g. he ran, she ran, it ran...avan Odi, avaL Odi, adhu Odi:-)

In Hindi, there are two things - 1. It has gender for 'it' category. 2. The gender is decided by the object, if there's one and it has priority over the subject in deciding the gender of the verb form.

For example, Ram may be a male, but as 'book' is female, it's correct to use 'Ram ki pusthak' (and not 'Ram kA pusthak'):-)

[Sudhaama]

.
. Hindi has NO NEUTRE GENDER.!. and also it differs by Size.!!




.................. In Hindi, there are two things - 1. It has gender for 'it' category. 2. The gender is decided by the object, if there's one and it has priority over the subject in deciding the gender of the verb form.

For example, Ram may be a male, but as 'book' is female, it's correct to use 'Ram ki pusthak' (and not 'Ram kA pusthak'):-)

In Hindi, there is NO NEUTRE GENDER...

...So the Neutre Gender objects... Basket, Rope, Furniture and the like are classified under either Masculine or Feminine ...

...without any Standard or Basis...

Hence it is very difficult to be taught to children or to be learnt by a Newcomer.

There is one more Confusion in this respect of Neutre Gender objects.

The same Object is FEMININE... if it is smaller in Size...

...BECOMES MASCULINE... if it is larger by size.

For example... for Basket... smaller in Size is FEMININE - TOKRI

.. if it is Larger in Size becomes MASCULINE - TOKRA.

Similarly for Rope: Bigger RASA (Masculine) - Smaller RASI (Feminine)

Bag = Bigger THAILA (Masculine) - Smaller THAILI (Feminine)

So to say... each Neutre Gender word... has been specifically pre-classified as per Hindi grammar...

...without any Uniform Basis or Standard...

...and so every such usage has to be Mugged-up... By heart... and strictly remembered.
.

[nirosha sen]

Good to see everyone having so much fun analysing the language. Yes, you are all right. This language though complex in both grammar and pronunciation, is still by the far the easiest. But I believe it's only because of our own familiarity with the colonial masters. It wasn't the other Europeans who stayed long enough to rule over so many parts of Asia and Africa, the way the Brits. did in the past few centuries. But surprisingly as far as English was concerned, it was in India where the experiment actually started, when the Brit. admin. decided that the natives should learn the English language!

It was the likes of an administrator called Macauley who was one of the few colonialists who had spearheaded the Anglicist language policy, where they sought to develop and control India through English. Independence may have been the furthest thought from their minds, but to create the kind of dependancy by the natives was a well thought out strategy.

[Sudhaama]

.
. How English entered India.?

It is a well known News that the British foreigners entered India... as Traders.

But prior to British... the first Foreigners who stepped in as traders prominently... was Persians through Gujarat and gradually spread all over India... Mostly they were the mutual Traders within Asia and Africa continents only.

But Persians did not spread their Language Persian amongst Indians.

Then stepped in the Portugese Traders through Goa and Kochi in Kerala... who was patronised by the King of Kochi... They too spread their market gradually all over India.

But the Portugese too did not import their Portugese Language into the Indian Brains.

Similarly Chinese too did large scale Trade in India... predominantly in South India. There was a China-Bazaar at the Madras city in those days.

Chinese too did not thrust their Chinese Language into the Indian children.

But the British Traders alone adopted a different path.!

All other foreign Traders had an inclination and enthusiasm to learn the local language as early as possible...

..and communicated in the BUYERS' LANGUAGE..

..similar to Marwari Traders settled in Andhra learns Telugu and tries to converse in tootaa paataa Telugu...

...and similarly the one doing Trade in Karnataka learns Kannada and so on in Tamilnadu, Kerala etc... learning to converse in the respective local language.

But the British Traders alone were quite contrary in their policy and approach in the aspect of Language of communication too.

British always used to proudly boast that they belong to the most Superior Humans...

...belonging to the ANGLO SAXANIAN RACE...

..who are the Offsprings of the Heavenly Angels... So the English people are the Heavenly creatures and...

..they are the FITTEST ROYAL HUMANS to rule over the whole world.

(Such a baseless claim only enraged the French and Germans seriously more than others)

British also claimed that their Language English is the Angels Language...

...Superior-most... SUPERSEDING all other World Languages.

[One Linguistic Research Scholar states that the Original name of English was AENGLISH... being the Language of Angels...

..and was initially pronounced as "Yaenglish"... similar to the pronunciation of "ANJELISH"

There is no other word in English.. which is pronounced similar to INGLISH...

...although starting with the letter "E" followed by a Consonant. ]

They thought "Why should we speak in an Inferior Language just for their convenience. Let others learn our Great Language... if they are interested to deal with us. Under any circumstances we will not allow our Language English to be substituted by any Native Language"

And thus they used to start talking only in English.. with the Non-English men too...

...without bothering whether the other person understands or not.

To believe this sort of peculiar approach... even now, if one goes to Bengal and move with them as a Stranger... he can understand how they are far diffrent from other Indians... in respect of Language only...

...while the Bengalis are very good people... kind-hearted, receptive and of helping nature... as much as any other Indian.

But in the matter of Language... the Bengalis are different...

Because they were the WORST SUFFERERS under the clutches of the British domination...

..which has shaped them far contrary from other Indians. How.?

If any stranger steps in Bengal... the local gentlemen used to invite him cordially talking in Bengali Language only...

..knowing very well that the Guest is a stranger ignorant of Bengali Language...

And on seeing his blinking.. he renders a translation...

...and as the next stage, Bengali mixed language accessible to the stranger.

Finally within a short period the stranger learns Bengali Language...

...similar to a Non-Swimmer suddenly and forcibly dumped in water struggles and learns swimming by the onslaught of circumstances.

So he is FORCED to converse in that local Language, Bengali only all over the state.

It is not the fault of the good-hearted Bengali people... but the past History has FORCIBLY CONVERTED them so.

So to say... that was the way how the British Occupants thrusted their Language English on them...

..and at one stage the Bengalis realised that in course of time their Mother Tongue, the Great Bengali Language will totally disappear from their own Soil.

Then there was a sudden upsurge amongst the Bengali Scholars... who paid back the British in their own coins,...

...by speaking in Bengali only with all, including the British occupants...

...similar to those British foreign immigrants.... with them in English

[We can also understand from the History behind the Bengali National anthem for India.]

One Great English poet from Bengal.. by name Mr Michael Madhusudan Dutta... got fed up with the British dominative approach....

...and stopped composing English Literature anymore...

..but suddenly switched over to Bengali Literature..

...taking a new stand to learn the advanced Bengali Language...

..and he became a Great Bengali poet. He composed several Bengali Literatures such as "Meghnath".

From this we can understand as to how much the local people Bengalis were dashed against the wall...

...forcing them to reverse their approach.

Then in the name of Missionaries... the British opened up English Schools all over... ensuring cost free education... and priority in employment in their companies.

Poverty stricken Bengali people were thus lured to become their slaves... through the means of Language.

So started by the East India Company based at Calcutta... as an Initial trial... spread over the whole India.

The same was their Technique in all their Colonial countries...

.. to suit that FOREIGNER'S CONVENIENCE....

Thus English Language was forcibly THRUST and...

.. Spread over the whole Asia... as an Foreign INVASION.!!!
.

[app_engine]

Though somewhat strongly worded, one has to agree with the most part of Sudhaama's post above.

I think English is popular today mainly because of the powerful empire that boasted as to "where the sun never sets". Probably, none of the super powers in the world prior to the British had such a strong 'global language' policy:-), though religion & commerce were always part of political ambitions of empires. Ofcourse, that it happened to be the language of the next super power of the world, U.S., helped the language's cause further, even though U.S. is a lot more accommodating when it comes to other languages.

Interestingly, is that another thing Indians learnt from British (in trying to make Hindi the "national" language)?:-)

(Disclaimer - I'm not supporting any language fanatism and currently learning Hindi voluntarily as my 4th language)

[Sudhaama]

.
. Origin of GLOBAL LANGUAGE.!!

. OTHER SIDE.... Plus Factors of British Traders.!!!

While we cannot defend nor justify the British dominative approach even on the Strangers and Buyers, who are their Feeders...

...To understand why the British were different from other Traders...

..we have to think on the other side too... their miserable plight.

Britain is a small nation with quite wise population... but with meagre source of earning or development.

There is no worthy Natural resources other than Coal... that too not enough for the long run.

Not enough means for employment too... especially the Non-manual.. Wise Man-power.

(1) Which Background by birth made the British as ADVENTUROUS.

(2) For survival they had to go out of their land and search for means of earning somehow... and also share with their brethren struggling in the same boat.

(3) They are quite WISE.. Many Scientists of the initial days were from Britain.

(4) They were unparallelly QUITE BOLD TO FACE HEAVY RISKS... especially in Sea Voyage and Overseas Trade itself.

(5) To their amaze they found people of some other countries were so Brittle, Vulnerable and Susceptible in confronting extraneous forces....

...lacking even the basic pollicies of Social Unity and Mutual Understanding.

One Novelty which other foreigners lacked... British had.!!

Others just catered to the World market... according to the BUYERS DEMANDS...

..whereas the British CREATED the Market... according to the SELLERS DEMANDS...

..as an Agent in between the Sellers and Buyers... in those DARK DAYS of the World...

...of poor Communication, No Electricity... Trade by Ships only with enormous risks... Ignorance of Humanism.. predominant Illiteracy forcing mostly Manual Labour only all over in all the Spheres.

So the exemplary British Dynamic and Pushing approach was a Great NOVELTY for all the World Nations in those days...

..who felt QUITE ADVANTAGEOUS by means of a Dynamic Liason Trader in many aspects...

To meet the multifareous demands as Buyer and Seller Nations situated far away....

...none else could excel the British Traders.

... to effectively compete with the British Traders... by MARKET-PUSH

They could perform as the Liason Agent in between the Buyers and Sellers REMARKABLY within a short time and...
... ACHIEVE THE RESULTS... for all the Nations mutual benefit Globally.

At such a Compelling stage... the necessity for a GLOBAL LANGUAGE was felt by all the Nations.

Because of the Prominent Traders being the British... widely dealing Worldwide.

..it could be ONLY ENGLISH predominantly...

...for Education on Advanced Studies and Communication with Foreigners.
.

[thilak4life]

Brings a savory yawn for a change.

[app_engine]

Brings a savory yawn for a change.

ஹ்ம்ம்ம்ம்...நீங்க எதை சொல்றீங்க? :-)

[thilak4life]

Brings a savory yawn for a change.

ஹ்ம்ம்ம்ம்...நீங்க எதை சொல்றீங்க? :-)

Just about everything (in the thread) I suppose.

[P_R]

Recently read something which will be interesting to the readers of this thread:

When Volkswagen set up a plant in Shanghai in the 70s they found that too few German engineers spoke Chinese and too few Chinese were conversant with German. So they adopted English as the official language -which put them all at an equal disadvantage :-)

[Sudhaama]

Recently read something which will be interesting to the readers of this thread:

When Volkswagen set up a plant in Shanghai in the 70s they found that too few German engineers spoke Chinese and too few Chinese were conversant with German. So they adopted English as the official language -which put them all at an equal disadvantage :-)

You mean DISADVANTAGE... or "Advantage"..

...by means of a COMMONLY UNDERSTANDABLE means of communication...

..similar to our Universal culture of Modern days HAIR-DRESSING...

..as well as the Pants and Shirts ... the IMPORTED Western dress...

...accepted by all the people Globally...

...without any Parochialism, or False-Patriotism or FANATICISM.!!!.
.

[bingleguy]

Recently read something which will be interesting to the readers of this thread:

When Volkswagen set up a plant in Shanghai in the 70s they found that too few German engineers spoke Chinese and too few Chinese were conversant with German. So they adopted English as the official language -which put them all at an equal disadvantage :-)

:roll:

may be :-) forgetting the languages related to them ;-) they ve gone for another language :-) is that wat u mean ????

[Sudhaama]

Recently read something which will be interesting to the readers of this thread:

When Volkswagen set up a plant in Shanghai in the 70s they found that too few German engineers spoke Chinese and too few Chinese were conversant with German. So they adopted English as the official language -which put them all at an equal disadvantage :-)

:roll:

may be :-) forgetting the languages related to them ;-) they ve gone for another language :-) is that wat u mean ????

I am surprised to note what You say as... which put them all at an equal disadvantage

Do you REALLY mean it as... Disadvantage..?

Dear Prabhuram... Have you gone through my recent Postings here... under the Titles...

How English entered India.?

.Origin of GLOBAL LANGUAGE.

Any Comment.?
.

[bingleguy]

Well Sudhaamaa ji.....

agreed on wat u say ....... :-) infact i agree that tis an Advantage ....

tis should not be a disadvantage coz it helps two different ppl to communicate and get the work goin ... common thingy is always goody :P ;-)

but my perception and reason to think that as a DisAdv - coz we have ppl who speak two different languages say German and Chinese - the situation warrants them to go for a third language :-) for their communication .... neither the Germans wanna learn Chinese - as they ve planned an investment there ..... nor the Chinese were interested to keep them by learning German :-) .... Finally they surrender to the "English" who comes to share the bread between the two cats ;-) - this is in a perspective of only ppl - who would actually love their language ......

but the fact is .... this is how things happen ... :-) which is kinda advantageous :-) on the English aspect .....

[app_engine]

From a purely materialistic viewpoint, it's a disadvantage. (Two groups investing time -which also means money- and energy instead of just one of the groups investing the same).

OTOH, from a "standards" viewpoint, let it be English or Greek or Sanskrit or Thamizh or Chinese or some other, if there's just one common thing for all humanity, it's greatly advantageous. (like http://, for e.g.)

[bingleguy]

:clap: Materialistic and Standard viewpoints ..... amazing ....

may be tis not just about groups investing money and time ... but also the self respect for their language :P ;-) jk ....

well, unanimously we should have had an earthish language ..... which we unfortunately dont have .... but without diversity :-) there would not be interesting things :-) also there wont be differentiation .... :-)

not all the products coming out of an assembly line ;-) are the same ;-)

[bingleguy]

OTOH, from a "standards" viewpoint, let it be English or Greek or Sanskrit or Thamizh or Chinese or some other, if there's just one common thing for all humanity, it's greatly advantageous. (like http://, for e.g.)

the time has come ;-) where we type only mayyam.com ;-) instead of http://www.mayyam.com :P (ofcourse tis understood as default ;-)) but ... we infact dont realize that fact !!!

[crazy]

:roll:

[Sudhaama]

.
. Purpose of Language.?


Well Sudhaamaa ji.....

agreed on wat u say ....... :-) infact i agree that tis an Advantage ....

tis should not be a disadvantage coz it helps two different ppl to communicate and get the work goin ... common thingy is always goody :P ;-)

but my perception and reason to think that as a DisAdv - coz we have ppl who speak two different languages say German and Chinese - the situation warrants them to go for a third language :-) for their communication .... neither the Germans wanna learn Chinese - as they ve planned an investment there ..... nor the Chinese were interested to keep them by learning German :-) .... Finally they surrender to the "English" who comes to share the bread between the two cats ;-) - this is in a perspective of only ppl - who would actually love their language ......

but the fact is .... this is how things happen ... :-) which is kinda advantageous :-) on the English aspect .....

I had been to an Exhibition at Bangalore... some years back.

Unexpectedly I met my Telugu Friend there alongwith six other people as a team... conversing freely and enjoying the time.

They all were discussing in Tamil... each of different pronunciation and expressions typical of their own...

...making it clear to any outsider that none of them are Tamilians.!

Yes out of those seven... Two from Karnataka, One from Kurnool of Andhra, One from Delhi, One from Kanpur of UP, One from Ernakulam of Kerala and one from Surat in Gujarat. ..

..having six different Languages as their Mother-tongues... None of them from Tamilnadu.. nor a Tamilian...

Five out of seven of the Team... had never visited Tamilnadu in life.

However everyone of them had opportunities to gain knowledge of Spoken-Tamil... by different means each of their own.

When I asked them they all said...

" One Common Language amongst us is English... but my wife here cannot converse in English..

But Tamil is the only Common Language which everyone of us... without exception... is able to just converse.

So we feel free to converse in any Language, known to all of us.. just as a means of mutual communication...

...like the Dress according to Our INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM and choice...

...Serving its due purpose EFFECTIVELY...

..whether Local or Imported."
.

[bingleguy]

Change for ONE ;-) constitutes a change in EVERY OTHER being ;-) :lol:

:thumbsup: Sudhaama ji !!!!

[Sudhaama]

.
. Fittest GLOBAL LANGUAGE.. for Present Demands.?

Not only the Vedic- Religion... but also the latest Scientific Research findings declare ...

(1) Day by day all the Nations of the world... will become GLOBALISED.

(2) Hitherto People of the Nations were segregated as the Nationals and Moving Polulation...

Contrarily in the future, almost all the Nations of the World... will have to accomodate foreign Nationals from various Countries...

...for the sake of their National development Scientifically, Commercially and Industrially.

(3) International contacts and involvement of Other Nations in the interest of their own advancements will be felt inevitable for almost all the Countries.

Keeping these near future demands in mind... the People has to develop their Knowledge in anyone of the Global Languages more specifically...

.. so as to meet the urgent demands of GLOBALISATION.

For such an unique purpose... Which one can be the FITTEST Global Language.?

Chinese.... Hindi... French... German... Japanese... Russian... English.... Or Any Other.?

..Why? and How?

..Shall we discuss.?
.

[pavalamani pragasam]

:yes:

[P_R]

I am surprised to note what You say as... which put them all at an equal disadvantage

Do you REALLY mean it as... Disadvantage..?
I meant disadvantage. It was meant as a humourous line.

If the Germans were to speak Chinese, they would be the only ones at a disadvantage. Similarly if the official language had been German, then the Chinese people working at Volkswagen would also have been at a disadvantage when compared to the German colleagues. The adoption of English necessitated both of them to be at an equal disadvantage as both need to learn the language.


Dear Prabhuram... Have you gone through my recent Postings here... under the Titles...

How English entered India.?
Origin of GLOBAL LANGUAGE.
Any Comment.?
I read the posts. As app_engine also mentioned, it came across as pretty strongly worded.

I am a bit reluctant to see the uniqueness in the English pride in their language. It would have to be a recent phenomenon. Almost coinciding with the East India Company (of course that is how long it matters to our history ).

Because even as recent as Shakspeare's times English was not considered any better than a tongue for quick common communication. Latin was still considered the learned man's tongue and treatises were written only in that. It is said that around that time even within England the language was so different in different places that it couldn't be simply classified as different dialects.

Coming to India:


But Persians did not spread their Language Persian amongst Indians Hmmm... I was under the impression that early Urdu and court languages of the Moghuls were significantly influenced by Persian.

All other foreign Traders had an inclination and enthusiasm to learn the local language as early as possible... Is this true of other European traders/settlers too ? French,Dutch, Portugese ? I am inclined to think they are likely to have been quite the same.

Whether the economic might of the East India Company made it possible for the English to make this a seller's market is an interesting question. But would the company have had the chance to propogate English is something I don't know enough about to either agree or disagree with. My uneducated guess is that the significant growth of English would have been after the transfer of powers from the company to the crown after 1857.

Colonizing powers worldwide have left their linguistic imprints. In many cases developing even hybrid languages that take some basics from the colonizer's language and mesh it with the framework-grammar of the local existing langauges.

One of the most interesting linguistic anecdotes I have heard is about a kind of Creole (hybrid language) spoken in Papua New Guinea. Their word for beard is : gras bilong fes.
Quite literally: " Grass that belongs to the face" :D

PS: Podalangai, are you out there ! Sure you'll have a lot to say here.

[pavalamani pragasam]

Yes, PR is correct in linking English propagation after taking upon the nation's governance into their control-legislation, administration, roads, buildings, finance, education...every sphere of our life!!! It was inevitable we absorbed the ruler's language!!!

[kannannn]

Because even as recent as Shakspeare's times English was not considered any better than a tongue for quick common communication. Latin was still considered the learned man's tongue and treatises were written only in that. It is said that around that time even within England the language was so different in different places that it couldn't be simply classified as different dialects.
Hmm.. not really. With the Great Vowel Shift, English more or less became uniform around the 14-15th Centuries (transition from Middle to Modern English?).

[dsath]

I am inclined to go by the ruler's language theory.
Not only India, but there are other countries that absorbed their ruler's language. Many of the Latin American countries adopted Spanish and in fact their official language is Spanish. I don't know if Spanish is an easy or hard language to learn.
In my opinion the English dominance was also helped by the outcome of the second world war. If the Allied countries had not won the war, then I have a feeling that English would not enjoy its current dominant status.

[app_engine]

I am inclined to go by the ruler's language theory.
Not only India, but there are other countries that absorbed their ruler's language. Many of the Latin American countries adopted Spanish and in fact their official language is Spanish.

Exactly!

Mexican = Spanish & Brazilian = Portugese (much like American = English):-) Political admin is a strong force and with co-operation from religious / commercial forces, it can throw off any existing native languages to near-extinction. (Does anyone know whether Italian is close to Latin?)

The phenomenon of "multiple-official-Govt.-languages-for-one-country" is probably the off-shoot of democracy:-)

[app_engine]

I was wondering what kind of governmental structure did Asoka the Great had in India. (I remember seeing his empire covering almost the whole of current India in school maps). Was there a central admin for the whole territory or there were a lot of smaller kingdoms with full admin rights within their territory but only paid some money (tax) to Asoka because of his might?

Or, was this "school map" only the imagination of current text book makers and such "national" admin never existed? If it had been a single kingdom (means administration in toto), it is very much possible that there was a single language used through out.

[Sudhaama]

I was wondering what kind of governmental structure did Asoka the Great had in India. (I remember seeing his empire covering almost the whole of current India in school maps). Was there a central admin for the whole territory or there were a lot of smaller kingdoms with full admin rights within their territory but only paid some money (tax) to Asoka because of his might?

Or, was this "school map" only the imagination of current text book makers and such "national" admin never existed? If it had been a single kingdom (means administration in toto), it is very much possible that there was a single language used through out.

Asoka ruled over only North India.

During his rule Sanskrit was the Royal language... used by the Kings, Seers and Ministers only..

...it being the divine Gospel language of the Budhists.

But the peoples language was PALI... Even in the coins only Pali was inscribed.

One interesting point..

Earlier.. when the King Dushyantha was ruling over... as per SHAAKUNTHALAM of Sanskritha poet Kalidasa...
..we can find the dialogues between the King Dushyantha and Viswamithra in SANSKRITHA...

...Shakunthala (Tribal Girl) and the Fishermen talk in PRAAKRITHA to the King...

..whereas the King replies in SANSKRITHA... the Royal Language...

Both understand each others Language but reply in a different one.

Thus the King, Executives and the People got used to multiple languages.
.

[Lambretta]

Sudhama ayya
when they r writing article about tamil, do they actually write aravam? or is that just a slang or sth? :?
I guess it is normally used as a slang or derogatory word- in normal telugu they say tamiLam only.. :roll:

[Sudhaama]

.
. PERSIAN & PORTUGESE in Indian Languages.!

Unlike other Foreign Traders with India... English people thrust their ENGLISH Language FORCIBLY on the Buyer Nation.

However we cannot say that the Indians are the Losers in any way... except their Freedom and Individuality.

Yes. Indians gained a rare additional knowledge on a Global Language of Advanced means for studies as well as availing and conducting the Modern professions on Science, Technical and Medical Subjects.

That is a different aspect altogether... to be discussed later.

Our present Question is... How English could gain comparatively EASIER & FASTEST entry into Indian Brains...

..while other Foreign- Traders Languages like Persian, French, Chinese,Portugese, Dutch etc.. could not. !!

..although they entered earlier... and had more deal with Indian Kings competitively.




But Persians did not spread their Language Persian amongst Indians

Hmmm... I was under the impression that early Urdu and court languages of the Moghuls were significantly influenced by Persian.//

Persians were the Neighbours of Arabs.. rather both are from Middle-East region.

The present Iran was PERSIA previously... [prior to Muslim- Shias immigration from all the neighbouring Islamic countries of Muslim-Sunnis.]

IRAN / Persians Language was PERSIAN..

Some of the words in HEBREW [originated from Israel]... ARAB [originated from Saudi-Arabia].. and PERSIAN [from Persia]... are common...

...similar to the case of many Sanskrit words common to all the Indian Languages.

So the Urdu court Language in India... originated from the Arab Language mainly.


// [quote="Sudhaama"]All other foreign Traders had an inclination and enthusiasm to learn the local language as early as possible... Is this true of other European traders/settlers too ?
French,Dutch, Portugese ? I am inclined to think they are likely to have been quite the same.//

There is always a World- convention... that the Seller has to discuss in the BUYER'S LANGUAGE only... whatever it be.

Such an Overall Convention was broken by the British.. by forcibly thrusting the Sellers Language on the Buyer Indians... who had to accept it... although reluctantly.

....while all other Foreign-traders made it easier for the Buyer to converse in their own conversant Indian Language of the region concerned.

For this purpose they brought Translators with them. Most of the Sailors used to be the multi-linguists... from different countries.

Impact of PERSIAN & PORTUGESE on Indian Languages.!

Because of the spread over of Marwari Traders throughout India... several common Hindi words like ACHCHA have got added to the vocabulatories of all other Indian Regional Languages.

Similarly because of the Mass- scale trade by Persians and Portugese.. their Language words also got added to Indian Languages

For Example : From PERSIAN :--

SARI in Tamil & Malayalam / SERAE in Telugu & Kannada

...to mean YES...from the Persian Word... SERES...

..to be pronounced in Persian as SERAE / HERAE ["S" Silent]

KADUDHAASI / KADITHAM in Tamil to mean Letter... from Persian QIRTAS... pronounced KADTHAA.

THOPPI in Tamil... THOPPI / TOPI in all other Indian Languages.. to mean Hat.. from Persian TOPI.

DHINUSU in Tamil... to mean Variety... from Persian... DHINUS... pronounced DHINU.

From PORTUGESE :--

In all the Indian Languages... CHUMMAADU / CHUMMADU / CHUMMAD... for Head support-piece of cloth... from Portugese... CHUMMAD.

In most of the Indian Languages:-- JANNAL / JANNALU / JANNALA... for Window from Portugese JANLA.
.

[app_engine]

>>Asoka ruled over only North India.<<

I don't think that's right. The most famous 'kalingaththuppOr' (after which Asoka took to Buddhism) must have been in south.

And I'm 100% sure about the school history book showing his 'pErarasu' covering most of south.

[app_engine]

>>by forcibly thrusting the Sellers Language on the Buyer Indians... <<

Another historical error. British weren't in India only to "sell" their goods, but also to "buy" (spices, tea for e.g.) So it was a bilateral trade.

[app_engine]

>>Our present Question is... How English could gain comparatively EASIER & FASTEST entry into Indian Brains...

..while other Foreign- Traders Languages like Persian, French, Chinese,Portugese, Dutch etc.. could not. !!
<<

I don't think it has anything to do with the language itself or "Indian Brains" (as I've seen people in Pondicherry comfortably handling French like people from other territories handling English).
It's the political admin's iron hand which could make people use ANY language.

[Sudhaama]

.

>>Asoka ruled over only North India.<<

I don't think that's right. The most famous 'kalingaththuppOr' (after which Asoka took to Buddhism) must have been in south.

And I'm 100% sure about the school history book showing his 'pErarasu' covering most of south.

Yes Yes.. What You say is CORRECT... I too am sure 200 %.. about the School History... I studied in Indian Schools.!.. But...?

That Unique / PECULIAR(!) History-text also states...

...that Kattabomman was a notorious Robberer... and the innocent Tamilian people, the poor victims were saved and retrieved by the Glorious ETTAPPAN...

...with the timely support of British military forces.!!!

...and that Mir Jaffer... the Ex. Minister of Bengal... was the Glorious Saviour of the innocent Bengali people under the Tyrannical hands of the erstwhile Bengal-King Siraj Uddaulah.!!

If you are prepared to accept this sort of History GLORIFYING the Traitors...

...We can accept the other parts of the British made SELF-CENTRED History too.

Yes... A CONCOCTED HISTORY... documented by the Indian Historian Dr Neelakanta Sastry.. under the Command- directions of the British Rulers of the then enslaved India.

How can we disprove so.?

French and German Historians documented World Histories alone have been accepted as AUTHENTIC by all the World Nations...

..on which You and I the Indian School-boys... were kept in dark...

...and we still continue to say... that the first 1857 Revolution for Freedom and Independance by the Bengal-military...

... was just a Sepoy mutiny... between two segments of Hindus and Muslims.

Because our School History has been taught us so.!.. We cannot say anything different.!!

French Historian says... that some parts of South India ruled by a local King.. was under the Emperor Asoka...

...and subsequently after Asoka... the South Indian King fought against and gained victory

Then even that piece of South India.. got totally free from Northern Regime..

Whereas German Historian states... South India was always separately ruled.. by different Rulers alien to North Indian Emperor's regime.

When Mr. C.N.Annadurai was the MP in Rajya Sabha... during Nehru's era...

...he quoted this point of True GERMAN History and argued that...

..South India was NEVER UNDER NORTH INDIAN RULERS... during the Historic days.

But during pre Historic days of Rama or Bharatha or Pareekshith... may be it was ruled.. on which we have no authentic proofs...

...Nor JUSTIFICATION... for the present Indian generation to render a RESURRECTION of the Pre-Historic dogmas. .

It is all the Britishers who named it so... as India one Nation.

If India were the One Nation or Empire at any time... there should have been one Common Royal Language for the whole India.

Which was that One Common Language for the whole India?

Only now during and after British rule... North Indians started freely moving in South. But prior to Britishers.?

Even in the Indian Military force... all the Commands and Instructions were and are in English.

But since most of the force cannot follow English... there are Two Translators.. one to translate in Hindi and then followed by another in Tamil successively.?

Why Only in Hindi and Tamil Translations common for all.? They are of 14 different Languages.!

Because practically speaking... Hindi is a Common-Language for all the North Indian Regions...

...with which one can manage throughout North India... of different Regional Languages.

And similarly Tamil was and is the Common Language of all the South Indian Regions of four different Languages...

..and so only with Tamil... one can manage throughout South India.. even now.

Why Tamil.? Why Not Hindi in South India too.?

One more interesting point... if two educated persons of different states from North..

...Say a Bengali and Punjabi meet and converse... they prefer to talk in another Language Hindi.

Whereas when two South Indians of different Regions.. say a Malayalee and Telugu meet and converse

... they prefer to talk in another language English. Why.? Why Not Hindi.?

Let us practically observe the convenience of the People... by REALITY..

..and NOT THE THRUSTED THEORIES.!...

..if we are to CONTINUE AS ONE NATION INDIA....

... Please allow us to continue with English as our COMMON NATIONAL LANGUAGE of One United India " .. said Mr. C.N. Annadurai.

Since the then Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru himself was a Historian...

..He accepted the True History and the Justifications...

..in favour of English based on it.
..

[thamizhvaanan]

I think there are few reasons why english became more common than any other language in history.

Obviously it was the victor's language in both the world wars. So when international bodies (like UN & league of nations) were formed it was the natural choice for lingua franca.

More importantly, it was the language of the old world's superpower (Britain) and the new superpower (US).

As colonizers, spaniards and Brits had covered much of the world. While spanish is still prevailant in its former colonies, english has grown beyond being just regional lingua franca. May be because Spain lost its dominance in neo age. And If I am right, more prominently because much of the scientific/mathematic works were written in english. Proly both britain and US produced more innovators and mathematicians and as a result high number of scientific texts in english.

IMO, the main reason is english language's universal adaptability. The language had so many words borrowed from other languages and it was always dynamic, ready to absorb words from other languages. And whenever the language was deemed difficult, ppl readily modified it into something more acceptable (dont be surprised if internet lingo becomes the next standard english spelling :lol2: )

[app_engine]

>>...that Kattabomman was a notorious Robberer... and the innocent Tamilian people, the poor victims were saved and retrieved by the Glorious ETTAPPAN...

...with the timely support of British military forces.!!!
<<

I don't think I've ever studied this kind of history that you've posted. May be from pre-independence era (when you went to school). FYI, I went to school in 70's (post CNA-reign in TN and studied TN syllabi / text books prepared by the state govt.,) which accepted Asoka's victory in the 'kalingaththuppOr'. I don't think 'kalingA' and 'chALukyA' are totally northie stuff:-)

[app_engine]

This is the part of present TN history text book that details 'maurya' kingdom:
http://www.textbooksonline.tn.nic.in/Books/09/SocSci-TM/chapter-5.pdf

(My level of "history" is only this, don't want to quote "french" "german" scholars etc :) )

This maintains that barring TN / Kerala, rest of India was under Asoka.

So, was it a multi-lingual kingdom or was there a common language?

[Sudhaama]

.

>>...that Kattabomman was a notorious Robberer... and the innocent Tamilian people, the poor victims were saved and retrieved by the Glorious ETTAPPAN...

...with the timely support of British military forces.!!!
<<

I don't think I've ever studied this kind of history that you've posted. May be from pre-independence era (when you went to school). FYI, I went to school in 70's (post CNA-reign in TN and studied TN syllabi / text books prepared by the state govt.,) which accepted Asoka's victory in the 'kalingaththuppOr'. I don't think 'kalingA' and 'chALukyA' are northie stuff:-)

Whatever I have to say on the matter... I have already posted analytically in detail...

There will be no use of Hair-splitting... and "Araiththa maavaiyae araiththal" necessary.. I think.

Persistent arguments on the matter will only be dry for others.. Viewers.

Further we have to remember two points.

In the Kalinga-poar / War with the then Kalinga Country (Present Orissa)... King Asoka won over the war...

... by totally crushing the Kalinga Warriors... resulting in heavy massacre of several thousands of Humans.

On seeing such a Pathetic scene of a Battlefield turned Grave-yard...

..the Humanitarian spirit sprouted up in Asoka... which made him embrace Budhism and pioneer its noble ideals. OK.

But as per Tamil Literature... we can see one KALINGATHTHU PARANI....

..a Victory praise of a Tamilian King who has won over Kalinga... including the intermediary regions upto that far off Land (Orissa).

Similarly the Thamizh Varalaarhu also states of GANGAI KONDA CHOZHAN... who won over the land upto Ganga River in North.

Thus we have History to say... that the Souterners have invaded and gained parts of Northern Kingdoms.

Similarly is there any History to say any King from North escalated into South?...

...except the Saurashtra King who was invited by Chozha King... as a support to defeat the Pandyas.?

..and the Bamini Sultans from Hyderabad captured the whole of South India...

...hence-before ruled as Vijayanagara Empire by Krishna-deva raya...

..which were the internal tussles within South India...

..covering the regions of Telugu, Kannada, Tamil and Malayalam (Ex Chera Tamil)
.


............So, was it a multi-lingual kingdom or was there a common language?

Common-Language used to be the Rulers' Royal Language...

..in addition to Regional Languages... OVERPOWERING them...

...like English in India during Britishers.
.

[app_engine]

>>Thus we have History to say... that the Souterners have invaded and gained parts of Northern Kingdoms.

Similarly is there any History to say any King from North escalated into South?...
<<

It's very interesting that you accept 'kalingaththupparaNi' as authentic & south invaded north, but refuse to accept TN school text book that Asoka ruled south except TN/ Kerala. Well, it's your choice to only selectively accept history and base theories upon it.

And, Yes, I'm not interested in grinding "araiththa mAvu' and that's why brought some more external info (even though it's only a childish school book level).

It's interesting to note in the same place that Asoka used 'bAli' language for his religious preaching program. Is that language still in use anywhere in India?

[Sudhaama]

>>Thus we have History to say... that the Souterners have invaded and gained parts of Northern Kingdoms.

Similarly is there any History to say any King from North escalated into South?...
<<

It's very interesting that you accept 'kalingaththupparaNi' as authentic & south invaded north, but refuse to accept TN school text book that Asoka ruled south except TN/ Kerala. Well, it's your choice to only selectively accept history and base theories upon it.

And, Yes, I'm not interested in grinding "araiththa mAvu' and that's why brought some more external info (even though it's only a childish school book level).

It's interesting to note in the same place that Asoka used 'bAli' language for his religious preaching program. Is that language still in use anywhere in India?

Dear Friend,

I wonder you are still prolonging your argument based on the Brtish-made History-text....

...what you and I studied in Schools of British India.

..which I have totally agreed with you.. NOT REFUTED.!

And I have given you the authentic News that the first Prime Minister of India, Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru...

...a Historian too... has not at all REPUDIATED the stand of Mr. C.N. Annadurai...

..that South India comprising of the so called four Dravidian Languages Region...

..was either partly or wholly... NEVER under North Indian Rulers...

..Nor the so called INDIA AS A WHOLE was EVER ONE COMPOSITE NATION...

...according to AUTHENTIC HISTORY.

Even after the Historian PM has accepted the German made World History on India...

...what is there for you and I to... OVERSTRETCH it.?

Pali Language is now extinct... since superseded by the Arab mixed Sanskrit...

...taken shape as HINDI.

But practically speaking... If Sanskrit Words are maximum... it is the real Hindi.

.. Contrarily, if Arab words are more it is Urdu...

...although some people call it as Hindusthani... as spoken in UP State and Haryana.

True Hindi can be identified by the Commonmen's talk in Rajasthan with maximum words of Sanskrit...

... and upto some extent in Madhya-Pradesh and Bihar....

...which is far different from the rest of Hindi region by the prevalent Language under practical shape...

..although named under one Common name as HINDI-BELT.!

The present Legal Court Language all over North India is mere URDU...

..although called as Hindi.

And if English is replaced by Hindi in the Indian Courts of Law...

...all Indians will have to learn high classical Arab-mixed Urdu also...

...since already authenticated by Hindi-walas so.. as the Legal Court Language...

...under the Label of Hindi.!

That is why Rajaji asked them.."Well, No doubt English is an alien Language entered India from a foreign Nation.

..as much as our modern DRESS... Pants & Shirts and Hair-cut style too IMPORTED. OK...

..But can you say Hindi is an Indian Language.? ..

...other than a Created Language by means of PROMINENT admixture of an Invaders Tongue ARAB.?

... which is FAR ALIEN to Non-Hindi Regions of India."

And the so called Hindi is far different from state to state. Do you call them as One Language as Hindi.?

We cannot manage with Hindi even in the Non-Hindi regions of North India...

...But can manage with English alone all over India...

..because English Language is spread over whole India... amongst the Literates.

..and we can find at least one person knowing English in every Village of India...

...including the Tribal regions like Nagaland."
.

[app_engine]

>>...what you and I studied in Schools of British India. <<

This shows that you don't even read my posts. Didn't I say I studied in 70's, after the death of CN Annadurai! Do you call that British India? And the text book link that I've given is the CURRENT text book being used in TN. I don't think the British rule TN today:-)

ஆள விடுங்க சாமி, நான் இந்த ஆட்டத்துக்கு இல்ல:-)

[Sudhaama]

>>...what you and I studied in Schools of British India. <<

This shows that you don't even read my posts. Didn't I say I studied in 70's, after the death of CN Annadurai! Do you call that British India? And the text book link that I've given is the CURRENT text book being used in TN. I don't think the British rule TN today:-)

ஆள விடுங்க சாமி, நான் இந்த ஆட்டத்துக்கு இல்ல:-)

Dear Freiend,

Should I answer this point.?

Indian school curriculum is still following only the British-made History Texts.!!
.

[nirosha sen]

Someone mentioned that no Hindu textbooks were allowed to be printed in the 18th century with the exception of the Bible! Apparently, this policy was adapted to allow only English missionaries to do their preaching and spread of Christianity to the Indian masses. The language policy of teaching English was also part and parcel of this scheme of converting "us heretics" into the true righteous path! 8-)

Could anyone enlighten us on this policy? What do the present history books have to say about that? Early history of mission schools in India and other parts of Asia certainly points to this fact.

[Billgates]

?...

<< >>Thus we have History to say... that the Souterners have invaded and gained parts of Northern Kingdoms.

Similarly is there any History to say any King from North escalated into South

Malik Kafur did he control TN ? THirumanalai Nayak must be a descendant of Marathas. HyderAli / Tippu were rebels fm the post Moghul era.

Is it true that some Cheran captured up to Himalayas ! :shock:
I bet he wouldnt have crossed Chinnamalai .
The Deccan plateau would have been a nightmare for that king. Logistically impossible to cross the Deccan . These all seem to be concocted stories to glorify South Indian kings.

[Billgates]

And Kattabomman anyday would have got thrashed by the EICompany. The kind of advanced ( then ) weapons they had , KB was an easy target for them. It must be some creativity as usual from Tamilian writers to glorify that character.

[Billgates]

The British Govt maintained all gazette during their tenure. Probably we may get something from their records about KB

[Sudhaama]

.
. Brainless TALL-TALKERS.!!


And Kattabomman anyday would have got thrashed by the EICompany. The kind of advanced ( then ) weapons they had , KB was an easy target for them. It must be some creativity as usual from Tamilian writers to glorify that character.

Yes. Kattabomman was a BRAINLESS TALL- TALKER... who is being over-glorifed by the Tamil-writers...

.. as if he was the Ideal Freedom-fighter.!

Just because he refused to pay the Kappa to Britishers...

..that Pocket-land Ruler cannot be qualified to be the Hero of even his own part of land.

Britishers claimed such Periodical levy from Kattabomman... similar to his Great Neigbbours, Pudukottai Raja, Ramanathapuram Raja, Travancore Raja, Mysore Raja and all such other famous Rajas of the whole India.

... being qualified as the Self-made Emperor of the whole Indian Empire.

Kattabomman was unfit to be any sort of Ruler or even as a Team-leader.!

Yes. if he was a really a Ruler... BASICALLY AT LEAST A LITTLE WISE...

..he would not have CAUSED for such a huge mass of Brave warriors to be massacred easily at the Cruel hands of an Enemy.

Prior to the Battle... he should have properly planned.. by comparatively adjudging the Enemy's combating might... especially with Guns... which Indians did not have.

Kattabomman brought forth to the War-front... a heavy mass of bold Warriors in THOUSANDS...

... with Sticks, Aruvals, Knives, Silambu, Bows & arrows .. ONLY WEAPONS.!

...to face the Enemy's GUNFIRE... from FEW HUNDREDS.

Very easily like bundling up the flock of Sky-birds by just one shot by a Hunter...

..the British soldiers in connivance with the Traitor Ettappan... could easily wipe off...

... the Unworthy, VIRTUALLY- DEFENCELESS.... Kattabomman's whole Army. Battalions... in No time... RIDICULOUS .!

British who came just for Trade... could have an easy gain... by not only the Commodities but also GRAB the whole Lands...

...by winning over India and rule over that Great Nation...

..erstwhile famous for Wisdom, Bravery and EMULATIVE Human-competence..

Foreigners from Turkey, Afganisthan, and at last the British... one after another could easily steal, rob, loot and at last fight and WIN also easily...

..only because of the Suicidal apprtoach of the BRAINLESS RULERS of those days...

...forcing the WELL-COMPETENT Warriors and Innocent people

...to MISERABLY FAIL and die in masses as Scapegoats...

...pitiably SUCCUMBING to Invasion.!!

.INCOMPETENT RULERS.!.. Poor Leadership.!!
.

[pavalamani pragasam]

Yes, cannot but seethe in rage!!! :shock:

[Sudhaama]

.
. English the Best Option.. for PRESENT & FUTURE India...

...said Rajaji

It was Rajaji whose was the sole voice to Vociferously drum-beat...

... in the Fanatic Ears of the Blind-folded Politicians of those days of Indian Constitution formation.

Hindi Zealots got angry on that Striking Suggestion...

...unexpectedly emanated from the First Indian to occupy the highest Chair of transition...

...named as the First & the last GOVERNOR GENERAL of India.

It was incredibly the Most CURIOUS NEWS.. for all over India...

...as also the HOTTEST NEWS.. to generate enormous Heat amongst the politicians of Hindi-belt in North India

Long long passages of Articles and Debates in All India Newspapers and Magazines were never seen before for any other issue till then...

...as much as for this Language Issue... from a highly respected National Leader...

...Not only on Politics but also on his unique Social Outlook on every National issue...

...challenging the uprise of Infant Nation India.

Press-reporters asked Rajaji...

"Why you are in favour of English... a Foreign Language to such a HIGHEST STATUS to supersede all the Indian Languages.?"

Rajaji replied "Yes English is a Foreign stuff... originated from an alien land...

..as much as our Modern dresses like Coats, Tie, Pants, Shirts."

Q: "So for how long You mean as an Interim means.?"

R: I did not say..INTERIM ARRANGEMENT... I mean for ever... as a Permanent means of National Communication...

...as well as Official Language... amongst the multilingual Regions of One Nation India.

Q: Then you mean all our Indian Languages including the Vedic Language Sanskrit and Classical Languages like Tamil... are INFERIOR to English...

...a THRUST means of Communication for the Invaders convenience.?"

R: Superiority or Inferiority of any Language over another Language is irrelevant here.

As also the past History of English entry into India is out of question now.... under our present context

We are now concerned only on the PRESENT and FUTURE INDIA...

...learning Lessons from the Global past... and fore-planning by Future perception.

Modern dresses like Coats, Tie, Pants, Shirts.. have been accepted and highly honoured by overall Mankind...

... as the Global culture of Advanced stature.

...as well as the Modern Culture of Hair cut all over the Globe... in all Nations...

...even amongst the Educated and Uneducated. Why.?

Because all the Mankind feel them as the best amongst all other Options available to them...

...irrespective of either Indegenuous or Imported...

...including their National alternatives.. hence-before adopted.

Similarly English has to be accepted... for independant India's present needs...

...as well as its Future demands of our Posterity in the GLOBAL PERSPECTIVE.

On such an OPEN-MINDED anaysis with NON-FANATIC Approach by Reality...

..we can easily adjudge English is only the Best Option as our Communication Medium and for Advanced Studies...

...so as to keep upto our demands for FASTEST RECOVERY from the Present Sickness in most of the aspects...

..rising up towards Advanced Status keeping our heads high as the well-competent Independant India...

Because our people can be better-positioned... by means of Advanced Knowledge... than that of the previous regime of Slavery Oppression.

Thus the Backward Indians mostly comprising of Poor mass of Heavy population can be easily retrieved from their present innocently victmised situation by miseries soon. ...

..Said Rajaji and continued...

"Highly educated mass by English Knowledge alone can ensure

...Indians' Compatibility with the FUTURE SCIENTIFIC WORLD of...

...Globalised Trade, Commerce and Industries !!!"

- Peep into Foreign Nations.

. CHINDIA the Greatest Challenge to the World.!!!
http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?p=1336882&sid=35916ef9752d39a0e6a9d8929ed2d2c3#1336882
.

[podalangai]

On Kattabomman, you may find this thread of interest:

http://www.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?p=640062

[podalangai]

And If I am right, more prominently because much of the scientific/mathematic works were written in english. Proly both britain and US produced more innovators and mathematicians and as a result high number of scientific texts in english.

Not exactly. The second world war also had a lot to do with it. Prior to that, German was an important scientific language - in chemistry, for example, a knowledge of German was considered indispensable simply because so much research was published in German. This was also true, to a lesser extent, of physics and even of sociology and philosophy. French had its own place in the arts and humanities.

But in the 1930s, a significant number of the best academics in Germany fled to the UK and the US. And it then took a long time for French and German universities to recover from the devastation of the war. In the meantime, most leading scientific research had begun to be be published in English simply because it was being done in the UK and US. And because the leading journals were now English-language, the best research produced by continental academics was either published in English, or translated into English. This made English the de facto international language of science and technology.

[thamizhvaanan]

Yes podalangai!! Even I was about to mention German as language of science and but wondered how it faded out of prominence. As you said, it lost its prominence because of brain drain and raise in stature of UK and USA post WWI.