Bullroarers - from the Dravidians to Australia?

[Bethe]

You know the thing that Crocodile Dundee swings? That's a bullroarer.

I've found pictures of them in King Tut's tomb, and the ancient migrants from northern Africa must have brought them to Dravidian India. Sometime around 3000 BCE - about 1500 BCE, Dravidians moved to the north of Australia.

I've never seen a Dravidian bullroarer, but I would love to know if it looks like the contemporary Australian or the ancient Egyptian ones.

Bethe

[davie]

dont worry baby. what ever u say is 100% wrong/illogical.
Soon a journal paper is gona be/will be released in American Anthropologist by this big daddy.
indians are a blend of chinese + european races no single african. sumerians are tanned europeans so my theory holds true
Most of the so called dravidians are europeans + some chinese.
what is the use if u cant explain to me the reason for absence of curly hair in indians

[Bethe]

Well, that's interesting.

Are you coming to the meetings in Atlanta next month? If yes, let's compare hair.

I didn't make up the stuff on the Dravidians. I got it from an Abo who took it from a 2001 genetics journal on mtDNA. I'll give you the reference if you want it.

I'm not arguing about who people were. I just want to see a picture of what is lrecognized as a Dravidian bullroarer. I know they exist, but I can't find a picture or a description of one. For that matter, I don't have a Sumerian one. So, if you have any pictures, I could really use them.

[davie]

message:::

[Bethe]

Good to know you will be there. Maybe we will meet up. As I said, though, I'm not doing genetic research and don't know anything about hair types. I am looking at bullroarers.

I'll be giving two presentations. The first is on Tuesday at the Visual Research Conference (Society for Visual Anthropology). I believe my presentation is late in the morning. Then, I am doing a poster at the SVA-sponsored session on Thursday morning. Both presentations are titled "The Bullroarer as a Way of Knowing." If you want to check out some of my work, please just go to www.tui.edu and look under the doctoral faculty for Bethe Hagens.

That reference I mentioned earlier is Adcock et. al., “Mitochondrial DNA sequences in ancient Australians”, PNAS (2001). Another is
Redd, A. and Stoneking, “Peopling of Sahul: mtDNA variation in Aboriginal Australian and Papua New Guinean populations," American Journal of Human Genetics, v. 65 1999.

[hehehewalrus]

ada vetti davie...oru periya kombu kitta ippadi pesitaye forumhub-nu nenachu....he he he...atlanta poidathey..unakku undu periya sangu hehehe...VA-laye padhungidu mavane :lol: :lol:

[davie]

thanks a lot for more details onthe reference.
i will talk to my big daddy here at Univ of virginia ( top notch school in the US for anthropology. for walrus pls note that its the no 2 public school in the USA ).
its all good.
@hehe walrus ur a baby. so just dont interfere when two important deligates are talking. I have attended/spoke in a couple of international conferences at michigan and lascruces.
meanwhile i dont know or even heard about ur school (union institute of technology). but its ok.
again one month is quite a short period of notice. i haveto ask my prof regarding this.
lol when ever u are strong in concepts u can always challenge a 1000 anthropologists saying/arguing with wrong facts.
No doubt i will be a phenomenal anthropologist one day. hell iwas trying to switch on to the business school at uva which is rated in the top 10.
@bethe
sure we can discuss/work together about these interesting issues during the years to come.
u will learn many things.

[hehehewalrus]

davie: @hehe walrus ur a baby. so just dont interfere when two important deligates are talking.

meanwhile i dont know or even heard about ur school (union institute of technology). but its ok.

Davie - unfortunately this baby can spell "delegates" better than you :lol: :lol:
And who told u i am from UIT? Dr.Bethe is from UIT :lol:

thanks for the humor though :wink:

[Bethe]

Sometime you and hehewalrus will have to tell me what this site actually is. I got in here Google searching Dravidians and bullroarers, and it came up.

[davie]

good to know that u finally got what u wanted.
this site is for everything. :) anything and everything what a forum can do.
and let me remind u there are lots of contrary information available in the internet. Some anthropologists argue that there was nothing like aryan invasion contrary to that website that u got with google search.
Internet websites can be wrong!!! I know many websites that are full of erraneous information. So, i will not consider those websites as a bible. Right now i am busy like hec running for my finals etc. I will 4 sure get all these journal papers and just go through the arguments that they are making
It takes someone good like me to crack this issue
@@hehe walrus . now ur a joker/clown
@clown i have already addressed this issue especially the website that u are referring
@clown yea ur are an infant/baby. Not this website. This website is doing a wonderful job uniting all thamizh/Indian people.
@clown eccha kala

[hehehewalrus]

Dear Dr.Bethe,
This site is about indian society and culture. It is very much in its infancy and unfortunately you will not get much information here for now. Maybe after a few months, you might if more knowledgeable discussions take place. All the best in your search.

Have you checked out this link?
http://web.idirect.com/~agatha/resources/time01.html

[geno]

Dr. Bethe,

This is an online forum for "convergence & Sharing" of minds - primarily meant for Indians/ indian issues :)

I think i can say Tamils and tamil issues are discussed here more passionately!

As you might have known Tamil is (the primary) dravidian langauge as per International norms for classifying lingusitc families :)

Your topic of discussion sounds interesting!

"Bullroarers" - are they some kinda instruments used by ancient people?

Can u shed more light on this plz. Am not a specialist in "anthropology" but am interested in knowing - if this "search for bullroarers" is part of your research for even more deeper research hypothesis?

Like how Dr. Spencer Wells used the - DNA from the y-chromosome. -to "map" the Homo sapien journey from African continent towards dravidian india, then to australia - in the first wave, and similarly other similar waves "out of africa"?


http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/12/1212_021213_journeyofman.html#main

I'll be interested if you could share some details about ur research here - in terms that ordinary mortals like me could understand :)

Thanx Dr. Bethe :)

[davie]

@geno
the link u mentioned is really nice/reliable eventhough the author fails to consider certain factors before arriving at conclusions
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/12/1212_021213_journeyofman.html#main
kewl

[davie]

note that line
"But when did we leave Africa and where did we go? Here's where opinions diverge widely. "
Some nice things from that article are the so called europeans (blondes, persians etc) evolved from the africans that is before 60000 years according to him.
u know they lost skin color coz they settled in colder/less sunnier regions of the world (also my theory).
he also says that there were waves of immigration.
However there are certain things he fails to consider. One among them is suntanning will cause skin color and any fair person of what ever race can become dark. Also he fails to consider yet another important (very important) factor namely intermixing, that is what if africans mix with europeans/blondes and what type of race will result. Everyone knows that according to mendelevs theory only one out of eight offsprings are gona be hybrid. So it is impossible to elliminate the possibility of pure offspring characteristics. Dats why i argue why is the same ditto african hair absent among indians. The issue can be cracked more intelligently by indians who are living in india rather than a foreigner who does not know much about indians.
He says one weird argument that central asians evolved from those africans/homosapiens and these central asians again moved on to the mediterranean and produced the so called persian race. HUH!!.
it means that according to him persians and medeterranean people evolved from the central asians/chinese/mongoloids???

[Querida]

thanx for the link to this interesting article Geno! :D

Neandertals in Europe. :P

no but seriously for the longest time i too thought the first man was from India not Africa...
what really caught my attention was that "While the most recent male common ancestor identified through the y-chromosome lived 60,000 years ago, the most recent female common ancestor traced through mitochondrial DNA lived around 150,000 years ago." :)

[Querida]

Dats why i argue why is the same ditto african hair absent among indians.

is it really absent? I have seen a number of indians with 'spongy' hair...and frizz mania...well maybe it's not so noticeable cause the gurls would rather straighten their hair to agin conform to the so-called norms of what is considered beautiful....and guys gel their hair up than show that they have frizzy hair....but heck there are alot of people may not have nappy hair like africans but certainly have the fuzz thing going on...of course feel free to enlighten me further with what you think mr. future's top anthropologist! :D

[davie]

PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT INTERESTED IN THESE SUBJECTS PLS DONT READ
@corida :lol:
nice to know that ur interested in this thread.
I know what ur saying and the website that geno posted even before 3 or 4 months. So what ur arguing is nothing new for me.
basically africans gave rise to the europeans/neanderthals and chinese kind of people ( this line was said by that anthropologist that geno mentioned and even i agree)
Some of these neanderthals settled in colder regions of europe and even lost their hair color hence they are called blondes.
but some of the neanderthals settled in quite sunnier regions like south europe thus giving rise to the persian category of people.
but some more of these neanderthals came to india and became dark jus due to tannin.
i mentioned in the first line chinese are also a separate kind of entity. Some more facts. Apart from this there was also the so called chinese race (which according to evans originated from europeans) intruded india quite a long time before say 10000 -20000 yrs, getting tanned.
Well many of the so called persians managed to comeinto india quite late say 10000 years, they also contribute the dark/brown indians.
another group of immigratioin was observed at about 10000-5000 yrs before.
finally latest intruders were so called muslims/moguls who intruded into india verey late ( say 4000-1000 yrs back). All these constitute the population of india. There was intermixing between all these categories consistently.
frizy hair should have been bought here by the medeterranean settlers. lots of them have the fritzy hair
this is all about this india
I see that that particular trait (frizy hair) is absent among indians. If that is dominant it means that there should be atleast 10% of the total population with such kind of hair.
lol. afr hair is entirely different. just dont confuse with something else. friz mania is different from having a ditto afr hair. It does not fall under a acquired trait category coz if was acquired before 10000 years then there should be atleast 10 million people in india out of the one billion people with that kind of trait. I will say that there is a chance for the friz hair to be acquired from the mediterranean category. Or frizy hair is a hidden trait in the genes appears very rarely.

LET ME STATE THE RULES MORE CLEARLY. PERSONS WHO CAN OPPOSE / ARGUE CERTAIN LINES FROM MY ABOVE POSTING NEED TO RESPOND. I dont want any people coming here and saying oh man i dont like neanderthals i dont like dark people i dont like europeans blah blah.
if some one is not interested u need not post/read.
and if someone is gona say a line then pls give me the reason why u say dat

Querida posted a decent argument opposing my argumentj. i welcome such kind of postings only


it has been proved that there is relation between the genes of dark indians with the mediterranean / persian category people What do u say regarding this??? hmm
Dats the reason i sometimes say just people are dark just due to sun and nothing else

[Bethe]

@hehehewalrus - Thank you for reminding me about Aunt Agatha. That was another site that came up on Google last year when I decided to go through all 1762 sites that came up in their search for the word "bullroarer" :D It was so interesting to put it right together with Wells (thank you, Geno).

I've been an anthropologist for so long, it didn't even occur to me that I didn't really know anything about history until studying these bullroarers. Do we have an option to post files in here? If anybody is interested in knowing more about them, I have a very short piece that I just completed for a world history encyclopedia that I could send. Basically, they are a piece of thin wood, bone, flint material shaped into an oval, rectangle, or other elongated shape. There is a hole or nub at one end to which you attach a string. Then, you swing it over your head in a circle and it creates a roaring sound. What is so wild about them is that some survive from 30,000 years ago in Europe. These were made of carved antler and bone. Then one shows up in Catul Huyuk. I believe that some of the "cosmetic palettes" of the predynastic Egyptians (3900 BCE) were bullroarers. There are a number in one of the outer halls of King Tut's tomb, and they appear in the plays of Euripedes. "Baby" Dionysus is given one to play with just before the Titans kill him. Then, what happened? The materials of bullroarers generally just rot away, and sometimes the people actually burned them after use because they were so ritually and magically important. And I can't read anything but romance languages, and so I don't know what has been written in Tamil or German or Chinese or or or. It is frustrating, but the one major study on bullroarers that was done 70 years ago (Das Schwirrholz by Otto Zerries) has a map that puts them virtually everywhere in the world. What I have been doing for several years now is making reproductions of bullroarers that I have been able to track down in history and anthropology and in Ebay auctions and anywhere else. It has been awesome. The Egyptian palette is identical in size and shape to a Maori bullroarer. Several of the Australian designs are identical to the Paleolithic bullroarer from the Dordogne. The bullroarers in Tut's tomb are identical to those used by the Hopi and Zuni. It just goes on and on, and the shapes and decorations and even names of deities associated with them are so similar. The Aboriginal Australian male initiation ceremony of the late 1800s (called "keeparra") is identical to the tradition of Khepera (the dung beetle deity) in Egypt. I find so many words that sound the same and mean the same, but the linguists say that it is just coincidence. With the levels of similarity I am finding, I don't see how it can be.

Enter Tamil and the Dravidians. I don't know virtually anything about them, and discovered this site trying to learn. I have a colleague/amateur archaeologist pal in Australia named John McGovern who is Abo. He says that there is a flourishing Shivite native religion there, just not formally recognized as such. He sent me the references to the two genetics articles posted earlier. Here's what he wrote to me:

"Clearly [migrants around 1500 BCE] brought Bullroarer tech with them and no doubt wrapped them and their use in the magic and mystery of the man making initiatic cycles. How do bullroarers from southern India and Sri Lanka campare to the Australian ones??

As you will see our current aboriginals are direct genetic descendants of Dravidian Indians who migrated here to Australia following the 1500 BC geo cataclysm which terminated the Indus Valley civilization.

Some of the boat people colonized Indonesia building all those fabulous Shivite Temples there. However those who came here to OZ were following the divine injunction of their universal creator God Jagganath. The injunction states "Abandon all socio religious activity and put all your faith in me, I will save you". Sounds very Familiar eh.

Those who came here abided in this single commandment of Jagganath (locally pronounced Yanggunah) and abandoned all levels of civilization. Returning to the hunter gatherer state they were familiar with before they embarked on their Indus valley civilization."

So, you see why I want to know more about bullroarers from the Dravidians :D

Thanks for your patience with this long message.

[davie]

@bethe.
thanks for posting more about bullroarers
@clown
if u cant post relevant arguments what is the use?
liked reading ur posting about bullroarers.
I dont know if u will be able to find them in the museums. But again i am not in india either. so i will not be able to help u or myself.
As we know mauris exist in newzealand.
They are none but the modified chinki race + some mediterranean kind of origin too. This issue is also in debate.
Ur talking about the very recent wave of migrations .
but even my arguments kind of makes sense.
There is nothing wrong/immpossible that egyptian/medeterranean civilization transfering its ideas to dravidian / mongolese civilization etc etc. U may also be able to find bulroarers in the ameiricas, coz most of the red indians are of chinese/mongoloid origin. My arguments makes sense to me. But i dont know about others.
@Bethe u havent addressed my postings either. :) no problem get ready for ur conference



note that line
"But when did we leave Africa and where did we go? Here's where opinions diverge widely. "
Some nice things from that article are the so called europeans (blondes, persians etc) evolved from the africans that is before 60000 years according to him.
u know they lost skin color coz they settled in colder/less sunnier regions of the world (also my theory).
he also says that there were waves of immigration.
However there are certain things he fails to consider. One among them is suntanning will cause skin color and any fair person of what ever race can become dark. Also he fails to consider yet another important (very important) factor namely intermixing, that is what if africans mix with europeans/blondes and what type of race will result. Everyone knows that according to mendelevs theory only one out of eight offsprings are gona be hybrid. So it is impossible to elliminate the possibility of pure offspring characteristics. Dats why i argue why is the same ditto african hair absent among indians. The issue can be cracked more intelligently by indians who are living in india rather than a foreigner who does not know much about indians.
He says one weird argument that central asians evolved from those africans/homosapiens and these central asians again moved on to the mediterranean and produced the so called persian race. HUH!!.
it means that according to him persians and medeterranean people evolved from the central asians/chinese/mongoloids???

I am not gona be adamant about all these stuff.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/12/1212_021213_journeyofman.html#main
this website is just a mix of everything. but my a arguments also makes sense

[Querida]

@ Davie boy :P
thanx for not only explaining where my error was but for also taking the time to elaborate on your argument...i have read support for your relation between parsis and indians...mainly from religion..."Zoroastrian religion was practiced mostly in Iran, or the ancient Persia. Its founder Zarathushtra was born in ancient Iran. The ancient Iranians were Aryans and the word Iran is actually a corrupt form of the word Aryan. The Iranian Aryans were cousins of the Indian Aryans and the language spoken by them was similar to Sanskrit in many ways. They came from the same stock and probably might have even lived together for sometime before parting ways." ....that is what i have read....sad that i too have to disclaimer as you do...please do not corrupt/twist my words because i use the word Aryan...and anyone with higher knowledge/authority on Zoroastrianism is welcome to refute my argument....decently...

[Bethe]

Davie - The only reason I haven't replied to your theories is that I know absolutely nothing about that area of study. I'm an artist/anthropologist and have not studied any physical anthropology since back in the dark ages of my undergrad degree when they had barely acknowledged continental drift :-) If you talk linguistics or mythical systems or geometry, I can join the conversation but otherwise I listen.

[geno]

Bethe,

Thanx for your exhaustive reply! :)

I would respond to some of points you have made, and pose some of my doubts on certain things. Lemme come back again a bit later :)

[Reena]

[quote="geno"]Bethe,

Thanx for your exhaustive reply! :)
quote]

Over Lollu pa! :lol:

[davie]

@bethe
i dont know what u mean by geometry or mythical systems, but if u want to discuss about the nice languages india, u will find intresting relations between sanskrit, thamizh and some other western languages.

@querida
no comments. cachya later

@reena.
why did u read this thread and most importantly why did u write some lines which is of no use to me or anyone

[geno]

Over Lollu pa! :lol:

Reena!

I wasn't writing anything funny! I dont know why you would ascribe "lollu" to my post! :shock:

The Dr. Bethe here has some interesting things to say. Perhaps you should go back and read all the posts made here by evyone, as also my post regarding Dr. Spencer wells' theory.

Querida, Davie! :D

Thanx for your thoughts too people!! :D

I'm absolutely interested in further thoughts reg. that theory of wells'

I'm willing to learn :) :D

write more ppl!

[davie]

ok guys back to the famous topic
I wanted to bring this issue for all the indian friends and want everyone to think.
If a person looks dark he need not be african!!!
Chinese are white, but they are not european.

And africans have curly hairs. Indians dont.
Explain this first before arguing about why indians are dark.
Dont change human race into black and white. We have millions of colours and different species of humans just like birds.
If u dont want to accept this all royal brown morons go to europe and get discrimated. :lol:
I was away for some time and morons have messed up the history section.
and last warning for posts like reena. Stay back all retards.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
come on shit with Davie. Retards

[jaiganes]

Hi davie and others in this interesting thread.
I am not a student of anthropology (much less an expert on this topic).
So I appreciate what Davie and Bethe in tandem with geno are trying to do here. So a little more of instructed and directed thinking can help before posting unsubstantiated opinions as theories.

Davie's questions:
1
If a person looks dark he need not be african!!!
Chinese are white, but they are not european.

True I agree with that fact. Your earlier mention that tanning over time(generations) increases melanin and therefore changes the original colour seems OK, however a few doubts are there.
We can see very fair Indians even in the most hot places in India, why hasn't the effect of tanning hasn't caught on to them?(I hope we agree that Indians are one of the most divergent group of people who have been able to maintain individual differences with the help of a highly oppressive and stupid racial/caste system. However this limited crossing also helps us to observe the racial differences and their root analysis much more plausible/possible. )
2.
And africans have curly hairs. Indians dont.
Again since India is so huge and divergent you seem to have come to this conclusion. I have observed that many babies in India are initially born with curly hairs (I cannot substantiate the counter that babies born everwhere have curly hair). However due to the use of oil and regular "Hair offerings" to deities, the original hair is lost and more artificial fashioning makes everyones hair style similar. I again don't know whether Africans have the habit of "offering" hair of the newborn to their deities. I cannot substantiate with proofs how this custom/habit of offering hair to deities originated, I need to dig deeper into ancient literature of Thamizhs and Indians in general , unfortunately my expertise do not lie there.
So in all fairness, i have expressed some of my observations without much careful analysis. I cannot claim to have put up a carefully constructed post either. So I would be happy if experts like Davie and Bethe are able to prune my post of chafes and get even a single valuable point.
Geno!! We can dig up the thamizh literature to see why most south indians shave their head? It seems to be a very odd habit.
Bethe, If you can please mail me the file you were mentioning about bull roarers. In thamizh literature there is a mention of a tool called "Kavan" which is nothing but a sling shot. It was a tool used by sheperds and people who had to take their cattle for grazing. If you can provide more details on this tool, people like geno or me (time permitting) can dig up some literature for evidences of this.

[HindustaniLadka]

Do dark skinned Indians look anything like Africans? NO, they are completely different. Do so called "dravidians" look anything like Africans? No, There is no such thing as the "dravidian" race.

All this aryan/dravidian crap is bs. If it is true, why are the only people that support it LTTE extremists and white supremicists(Timothy McVeigh for example). Modern science, logic and historical data has proven the aryan/dravidian crap wrong...so dont bother debating it.

[Ilavenil]

Basically, they are a piece of thin wood, bone, flint material shaped into an oval, rectangle, or other elongated shape. There is a hole or nub at one end to which you attach a string. Then, you swing it over your head in a circle and it creates a roaring sound.

As you will see our current aboriginals are direct genetic descendants of Dravidian Indians who migrated here to Australia following the 1500 BC geo cataclysm which terminated the Indus Valley civilization.

Thanks for your patience with this long message.

Hi Dr. Bethe,

Interesting. The bull roarers sounds like something used in the paddy field to chase away birds. I remember reading similar instrument being used by "Godess Valli" in the paddy field before meeting "Lord Murugan". May be someone who knows tamil literature can comment on this.

I am eagerly waiting for you to find about the bull roarers and please share with us what you have learnt. There are some people in this forum who claim that there isn't a race called Dravidian race. Please don't bother about them.

Dr.Wells says some Dravidians went to Australia through Java, Sumatra since in those days there were land connecting Asia with Australia. Gene marker says so. Australian aborigines look a lot like Dravidians.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/12/photogalleries/journey_of_man/photo3.html

[HindustaniLadka]

Whatever, i'll stay out of this thread provided that people from AP are not categorized as "dravidians".

[geno]

This thread is revived in the hope of some more discussion on the link between Australian aborigines and the thamizh people. Bethe's posts on Bullroarers should have been followed up, but..