Tamil Brahmi inscriptions and other archaeological finds

[podalangai]

This is a few weeks old, but I've not seen it discussed here, so...

A Tamil Brahmi inscription dating from the first century BC has been discovered in Egypt. Iravatham Mahadevan has provided a tentative reading:

http://www.hindu.com/2007/11/21/stories/2007112158412400.htm

Tamil Brahmi inscriptions have been found before on the Egyptian Red Sea coast at Quseir-al-Qadim / Berenike, but this one is at least a century or so older.

[joe]

Podalangai,
what is the meaning of 'Brahmi'? Is it a name of a type of Tamil script ? Is it related to Brahmins?

[P_R]

Podalangai,
what is the meaning of 'Brahmi'? Is it a name of a type of Tamil script ? Is it related to Brahmins? Joe, I don't think brahmi is linked with brahmins. Brahmi is a script used across India around the 3rd century BC. Asokan edicts were in Prakrit written in this Brahmi script. A recent discovery in Adichanallur in Tirunelveli found some Brahmi inscribed pottey which dates further back than Asoka.
The Tamil Brahmi script is a bit different from the Asokan Brahmi and is considered the most ancient Tamil script.

Vattezhuthu which evolved out of Brahmi was used to write Tamil, which was - as the name suggests- more rounded. This is because man had started moving out of rock-cut writing to palm leaves, which required smoother writing techniques.This slowly evolved to our current script.

In another stream, Brahmi evolved to the Grantham script which was used for writing Sanskrit in Tamil areas. The convention was to write Tamil portions in Vattezethu and Sanskrit portions in Grantham !

Was all that right podalangai ?

[P_R]

This is a few weeks old, but I've not seen it discussed here, so...

A Tamil Brahmi inscription dating from the first century BC has been discovered in Egypt. Iravatham Mahadevan has provided a tentative reading:

http://www.hindu.com/2007/11/21/stories/2007112158412400.htm

Tamil Brahmi inscriptions have been found before on the Egyptian Red Sea coast at Quseir-al-Qadim / Berenike, but this one is at least a century or so older.
Interesting news ! A few questions:
Is the distinction between Asokan Brahmi and Tamil Brahmi something everyone agrees on ? Paanai Uri seems to be quite settling because the words exist till date. But what if the words have dropped out. Would it still be possible to tell apart Asokan and Tamil Brahmi just by the letters alone ? Is Adichanallur still the oldest Tamil Brahmi ever ? 6th century BC ?

[thilak4life]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_script

http://acharya.iitm.ac.in/cgi-bin/script_disp.pl?brahmi

[Billgates]

Podalangai,
what is the meaning of 'Brahmi'? Is it a name of a type of Tamil script ? Is it related to Brahmins?

Dont worry about the Caste . Look at what it delivers to you . So, will you denounce tamil if the Brahmi is by Brahmin ?

[podalangai]

Is the distinction between Asokan Brahmi and Tamil Brahmi something everyone agrees on ? Paanai Uri seems to be quite settling because the words exist till date. But what if the words have dropped out. Would it still be possible to tell apart Asokan and Tamil Brahmi just by the letters alone?
Yes. For a (very) brief summary of some of the differences, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_script#History

In this case, the inscription uses the vallinam "R" (ற் in the modern Tamil script), which makes it pretty clear that the inscription is in Tamil, as Asokan Brahmi didn't have the character. Even otherwise, nearly all Tamil Brahmi inscriptions distinguish pure consonants (meyezhuthu with puLLi) from consonants with an inherent vowel (meyezhuththu + "a"), which standard Brahmi usually doesn't do. This makes it quite easy to distinguish Tamil Brahmi from standard Brahmi.

Finally, because of the Sangam literature, we have an excellent idea of what Tamil was like in the 1st century BC. As a result, we are in a position to recognise even those words that have dropped out of everyday use in modern Tamil, because they were used in Sangam Tamil.

[podalangai]

Podalangai,
what is the meaning of 'Brahmi'? Is it a name of a type of Tamil script ? Is it related to Brahmins?

Vanakkam Joe :)

"Brahmi" is the name of a script that was used by Asoka and later rulers to write inscriptions in Prakrit. From the 1st or 2nd century AD, it was also used to write Sanskrit. The script is called "Brahmi" in Sanskrit texts - the name has nothing to do with "Brahmins", but refers to a north Indian legend that the script was given by Brahma ("Brahmi" in Sanskrit means "of Brahma" or "coming from Brahma").

A version of the Brahmi script was used in Tamil Nadu to write Tamil. This differs in many ways from the northern Brahmi, and even from the Brahmi used to write Sanskrit and Prakrit in Karnataka and Andhra Pradesh, so it is usually called "Tamil Brahmi" to distinguish it from standard Brahmi.

Apart from the difference in the letters, the way they are used is also different. In the north, most inscriptions in Brahmi are long inscriptions recording charters or laws promulgated by kings. In Tamil Nadu, however, most inscriptions are carvings on pottery (to identify the owner of the pot or the use to which it was put), epitaphs on "nadukkal", and short carvings on stones made by individuals. Iravatham Mahadevan suggests that this means that literacy was a lot more widespread in the Tamil country than elsewhere in India.

Finally, the traditional account of the origin of Brahmi is that it was adapted from a Semitic script in north India during Asoka's time, and then moved to the South. However, tentative datings of recent excavations suggest that the oldest Brahmi inscriptions found in Tamil Nadu and Sri Lanka (names inscribed on pots) are from a time before Asoka, possibly dating to the fourth or fifth century BC. This suggests that the traditional theory may be wrong. Dr. Gift Siromoney had argued almost twenty years ago, before the discovery of this evidence, that the script was first used for Tamil - you can read some of his papers here http://www.cmi.ac.in/gift/default.htm. But we still don't know for sure.

[P_R]

Thank You podalangai. As always :notworthy:

Dr. Gift Siromoney had argued almost twenty years ago, before the discovery of this evidence, that the script was first used for Tamil - you can read some of his papers here http://www.cmi.ac.in/gift/default.htm. But we still don't know for sure. What a fantastic character !! He is just all over the place. Thank you once again podalangai !

>digr.>

Prof. Siromoney also formed a research group to work on Character Recognition, especially the characters of Tamil, Malayalam and Devanagari. The methods he developed with the assistance of this group will be useful for designing a new generation of computers.

Prof.Siromoney's research team was the first to make large-scale iconometric measurements of Indian sculptures.

He opened up new avenues of research in the field of Harappan script by applying mathematical techniques such as Cluster analysis and Dynamic Programming to decipher the Indus seals. Similarly, techniques of Image Processing and Character Recognition were employed to read inscriptions.

Dr. Siromoney has made significant contributions to the field of Tribal Studies. The various facets of the culture of Narikkkuravas (Vagrivala, a nomadic gypsy tribe) -- medicine, music, language, snares etc., --drew his scholarly attention. With a view to providing literacy to the people of the tribe, he produced the first ever books in Vagriboli (the language of Vagrivala) using the Tamil script. (Microfiches of the mimeographed books have reached the Library of Congress in Washington D.C(SAI 81/00151 and 82/60278-60280).

Environmental Studies also caught the scholarly imagination of Prof.Siromoney. He has prepared check-lists of birds and butterflies of Tambaram area, and conducted experiments on the college farm in the areas of poultry, piggery and agriculture, adopting statistical methods. His articles in Newsletter for Birdwatchers make an interesting read.

With Prof.C.T.Kurien (a renowned economist who taught in Madras Christian College) he has collaborated on a study of saving pattern. The public opinion surveys he conducted in Tamil Nadu were the first of their kind and so were his studies on public health and literacy. The results of these statewide surveys were published in national and local newspapers so that the findings could be accessible to the common man << :shock:

[joe]

Thanks Prabhu Ram and Podalangai :D

[joe]

Podalangai & PR,
I have been to Angor Wat temples ,Cambodia (Probably the oldest(1000 years) and biggest hindu temples in the word) .On the walls I found some scripts ,I cannot read fully ,but few characters looked similar to present Tamil characters we are using now (eg ல) .

[podalangai]

Podalangai & PR,
I have been to Angor Wat temples ,Cambodia (Probably the oldest(1000 years) and biggest hindu temples in the word) .On the walls I found some scripts ,I cannot read fully ,but few characters looked similar to present Tamil characters we are using now (eg ல) .

Yes, that is because they are written in what is called the "Pallava Script", which was derived from vattezhutthu during the Pallava period. It is similar to the grantha ezhutthu that was used in Tamil Nadu to write Sanskrit. Most of the modern scripts of South-east Asia are derived from the Pallava script.

[Roshan]

Thanks Podalangai for this interesting piece of info and the related links. Quite useful indeed :)

[P_R]

A recent news article (http://www.hindu.com/2008/01/13/stories/2008011355961800.htm)about an Indus Valley that depicts jallikkattu.

[thilak4life]

A recent news article (http://www.hindu.com/2008/01/13/stories/2008011355961800.htm)about an Indus Valley that depicts jallikkattu.

Virumandi's craft traced to an artifact of Saketh. LOL

Does bull-baiting provide any sort of trance effect? Or, totally opposite? Is the vigorous imagery out of a trance effect, enchanced by a psychologically induced state of brutal masochism involved? Taming the untamed animal is known to provide a psychedelical effect (and a ritual effect) than merely providing a courage contest or a masculine play. However, the catch is, the hallucinatory effect of anything to do with animals is from sensory deprivation in caves for the prehistoric man. They were aroused, and driven by this hallucinations to inscribe in the caves (20000-30000 years before). However, here's a "seal" made out of stone, and just about 4000 years old. Perhaps a deliberate case of fixating the practice to art forms..

[MazhaiKuruvi]

angkor inscriptions http://bp0.blogger.com/_M-stQS7gGXY/RlRIFBTGbiI/AAAAAAAAAaM/s3p75Z4ldmM/s1600-h/khmer+letter.jpg

idhu thamizh madhiriye theriyudhe.

Khmer script
http://www.ancientscripts.com/khmer.html

[joe]

angkor inscriptions http://bp0.blogger.com/_M-stQS7gGXY/RlRIFBTGbiI/AAAAAAAAAaM/s3p75Z4ldmM/s1600-h/khmer+letter.jpg

idhu thamizh madhiriye theriyudhe.


This is exactly what I have seen when I went to Angor Wat :D

[sivaram ram]

Guys it is alrdy proven that the Bramhi script eveolve from the Indus script.
The indus script is nothing else but the old Tamil Script, dating more than 10 000bc

[P_R]

Guys it is alrdy proven that the Bramhi script eveolve from the Indus script.
The indus script is nothing else but the old Tamil Script, dating more than 10 000bc Hmm I thought the jury is still out on that. I may be wrong but isn't the Indus Script still undeciphered ?
Is there a script that dates back to 10,000 BC !?!?!

[P_R]

[tscii:5cd54e0bc5]From Indus Valley to coastal Tamil Nadu

T.S. Subramanian
Strong resemblances between graffiti symbols in Tamil Nadu and the Indus script

CHENNAI: In recent excavations in Nagapattinam district in Tamil Nadu, megalithic pottery with graffiti symbols that have a strong resemblance to a sign in the Indus script have been found. Indus script expert Iravatham Mahadevan says that what is striking about the arrow-mark graffiti on the megalithic pottery found at Sembiyankandiyur and Melaperumpallam villages is that they are always incised twice and together, just as they are in the Indus script.

The Hindu published on April 27 a report (“Megalithic period pottery found”) on megalithic pottery and urns found at Sembiyankandiyur, along with [in most of the editions] a photograph of three pots with arrow-like graffiti symbols on each pot.

In all the three pots, the arrow-like symbol appeared two times each and next to each other.

The Tamil Nadu Archaeology Department found these pots during excavations at Sembiyankandiyur between February and April 2008 after a school teacher, V. Shanmuganathan, unearthed a polished neolithic axe from the garden of his house at Sembiyankandiyur in 2006. The axe had engravings that resembled the Indus script.

In May 2007, the Department found several pots at Melaperumpallam near Poompuhar during a trial excavation. Some of these had the same arrow-like symbol occurring twice on them, and always adjacent to each other.

According to Mr. Mahadevan, seals unearthed at Mohenjodaro (now in Pakistan) in the 1920s have similar arrow-like signs that also occur twice and always together. There are several seals with the Indus script and engravings of a bull or a unicorn where the arrow-like sign always occurs in pairs.

While the megalithic/Iron Age pottery in Tamil Nadu is datable between the third century B.C. and third century A.D., the Indus script belongs to the period 2600 B.C. to 1900 B.C. of the mature Harappan period.

“In spite of the enormous gap in time and space between the Indus civilisation sites and [the] Tamil Nadu [sites], it appears that the megalithic graffiti of Tamil Nadu have continued the tradition of the Indus script,” Mr. Mahadevan said.

“Despite a slight difference in the graphic of the arrow-like symbol found on the megalithic pottery of Tamil Nadu and the sign in the Indus script, the fact is that they always occur in double and together. So this requires further study and investigation.”

In 1960, B.B. Lal, former Director General of the Archaeological Survey of India (ASI), wrote a paper in the publication Ancient India brought out by the ASI, with a photographic catalogue of the megalithic and chalcolithic pottery with graffiti marks and comparing them with the signs of the Indus script. “Since then, many more examples of pottery with graffiti marks that have a strong resemblance to the Indus signs have been found at Sanur near Tindivanam in Tamil Nadu and Musiri (Pattanam) in Kerala,” Mr. Mahadevan said.

Particularly significant was a large megalithic terracotta plate found at Sulur near Coimbatore, with symbols closely resembling an inscription on a tablet found at Harappa, which is also in Pakistan now. Hence, “there is distinct possibility that the megalithic symbols and the corresponding signs of the Indus script have the same significance and meaning,” he said. (The terracotta plate from Sulur is on display at the British Museum in London).

In his paper, “A megalithic pottery inscription and a Harappa tablet: a case of extraordinary resemblance,” published in the Journal of Tamil Studies, Volume No.71, June 2007, Mr. Mahadevan said: “I suggest that close resemblances are possible only if the south Indian megalithic script is related to the Indus script. Further, the common sequence found on the Sulur dish and the Harappa tablet may indicate that the languages of the two inscriptions are related to each other.”

http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/thscrip/print.pl?file=2008050353942200.htm&date=2008/05/03/&prd=th&[/tscii:5cd54e0bc5]

PS: Podalangai can you please consider changing the title of this thread to be more generic ? This thread can be a point of discussion/sharing of news about archaeological finds.

[P_R]

[tscii:0107e167c2]The Tale of a broken pot (http://www.hindu.com/2008/05/13/stories/2008051355252000.htm)
Iravatham Mahadevan and S. Rajagopal


Today I am a broken pot stored away in a museum. But, about eighteen hundred years ago, I was a shining new kalayam. My proud owner was a toddy-tapper named Naakan. He lived in a small hamlet at the edge of the forest (near present-day Andipatti in Theni district of Tamil Nadu).

Naakan was too poor to own land; but he earned his living by taking on lease some coconut and palmyra trees, tapping and selling the toddy.

There were several toddy-tappers in the hamlet. They would climb the trees early in the morning, make deep cuts on the crown of the trees with their sharp bill-hooks, and tie their pots beneath to collect the sap (juice) that oozed from the cuttings.

The pots, when full, would be taken down and stored for a few days to allow fermenting of the sap into toddy, for which there was a good market.

Etched belongings


Poor he might have been, but Naakan was literate. In order to identify his kalayam and its contents, he scratched this message on it with his sharp iron tool:

naakan uRal ‘Naakan’s (pot with) toddy-sap’

The Tamil word ooRal (from ooRu ‘to ooze’) meaning ‘freshly tapped toddy’ is spelt here with the short vowel u probably due to oversight or reflecting the colloquial usage.

Determining age


Archaeologists who dug me out of the earth near Andipatti a couple of years ago, have determined from examining the fabric of my body, that I was made in about the third century A.D. Epigraphists (who study old inscriptions) have identified the writing on my shoulder as in Old Tamil written in the Tamil-Brahmi script of the same period.

And that is not all. The two-word inscription carries an important message, namely, how widespread literacy must have been in the ancient Tamil country, if a poor toddy-tapper, living in a remote hamlet far away from urban and commercial centres, could write down his name and what he was doing with the pottery he owned.

That is the reason why I am preserved in the museum and not discarded like other broken pottery!

Iravatham Mahadevan is a well-known researcher of the Indus and Brahmi scripts. Dr. S. Rajagopal is a senior archaeologist specialising in Old Tamil inscriptions, who retired from the Tamil Nadu State Department of Archaeology. [/tscii:0107e167c2]

[podalangai]

Older threads on this topic:
http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?t=2853
http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?t=6470
http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?t=6806
http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?t=10211

(Might the moderators be able to merge them into a single thread?)

[Badri]

Older threads on this topic:
http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?t=2853
http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?t=6470
http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?t=6806
http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?t=10211



(Might the moderators be able to merge them into a single thread?)

This has been done. Please find all these threads merged in a new thread

Tamil Brahmi inscriptions and other archaeological finds (http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?t=11502&sid=8953fcf424cbc17ab72697012b84d912)

I am locking this thread. Please use the other thread for all your discussions on this topic.