How important is MOTHER TONGUE

[Nakeeran]

Many guys show their fondness towards their mother tongue

Some use this as a political agenda

Some really love it

However, some also feel that language should be a medium to communicate . What U intend has to be communicated effectively . this is what that counts ultimately.

Then why there is so much affinity towards mother tongue ?

[pavalamani pragasam]

An inexplicable fondness/affection for something which is rightfully our own! Pride of possession!

[Nakeeran]

PP Mdm

No doubt about what you said :D

At times what happens in the process is prejudice towards other languages & one starts boycotting them blindly.

[Chappani]

[tscii:98da411605]Hi,

A nice topic to discuss...
I take pride in Mother tongue Tamil and I appreciate in others who also take pride in their mother tongue.
I feel mother tongue is the one that Binds people more than Religion, caste, race etc. I find bondage with a person and start to have a conversation with a person whom I find to be speaking Mother tongue than another person who looks like from the Sub continent but not necessarily of my language. I feel at home when I get to hear my mother tongue away from home...


For me Mozhi is the base for inam...
You see China, there are lots of religions, cultures within it, but because of one Language - Chinese (Mandarin and Cantonese) they are all together. But many countries where there are more than one language there are always bound to be lots of issues e.g., Srilanka, Turkey, Spain etc.


Regarding your query that people take too much pride in their language and boycott other's languages.. My say in this is:

Language is more like one's Parents, Siblings, House, environment etc.. For everyone their parents, Siblings etc is always the best. We appreciate our stuff and take pride in that, we never expect other's to appreciate them - many a times we also know we don’t deserve any appreciation from others in regard to this.. I feel language also falls in the same fold and to be treated likewise. But the sad part is that people start talking ill/ start criticizing other languages without any thought as to what the other person will feel this is bad culture...

I will quote an Instance: I am a Tamil born and brought up in Bangalore. We Tamils in Bangalore have no disrespect for Kannada, we study them in schools for we have no other choice, but we never hate it.. But the local Kannadigas they take pride not in loving their Mother tongue, but in criticizing other languages especially Tamil, just like how some right wing political parties in India feel happy criticizing Pakistan for all and every reasons...

Srini[/tscii:98da411605]

[Roshan]

At times what happens in the process is prejudice towards other languages & one starts boycotting them blindly.

Then what about imposing one's language on to another? If you are talking about 'boycotting' then better talk about 'imposing' as well. appathAn kaNakku sariyA varum.

PP mam had said it rightly for the LOVE and AFFECTION one has for the mother toungue. Thaai, Thaai Veedu, Thaai Naadu pOnRathuthAn thaai mozhiyum :D

[Braandan]

Just another type of collective "I" ness. Nothing wrong with it so far as you don't trouble others with it. The problem comes when the attitude "Mine is better than yours" or "Mine is the best" comes into play.

[MazhaiKuruvi]

Just another type of collective "I" ness. Nothing wrong with it so far as you don't trouble others with it. The problem comes when the attitude "Mine is better than yours" or "Mine is the best" comes into play.

:yes:

Language is just a means of communication.

If you identify yourself by your language, then you get upset if someone talks ill of the language, that's all.

What is mother tongue itself is a big question. It is your first language, it is the language you are most comfortable with.

I understand the issue about being Tamil in Karnataka (it is mere neighbourhood rivalry), but the same Tamil people when in Mumbai would prefer to converse in Hindi and identify themselves more with the North than the South and would come and preach Hindi to their relatives in the South. I have seen this many times.

[dsath]

[tscii:46d0ef9cab]If language is just for communication, why then do we have poetry and literature. If Homer, Shakespeare and Kamban wanted to just say their stories, why not write them in simple language that lay people would understand. Why then complicate it by writing in a style that only some can enjoy. :)
Its said that when Alexandria was burning, all Cleopatra worried about was saving the library. :notworthy:
Language is just not that, it embeds a whole lot of other things. It’s a parameter to measure a society - It’s past and present. The richness of a culture (not material richness) is directly proportional to its language. In other words language is the essence of a culture. That is not to say that other factors do not contribute to a culture’s or society’s growth. There are other factors, but language is an important one.
So it is natural that we associate our identity (including our culture) to our language. Take out a language, the culture will surely die. So when we are trying to protect our language, we are actually trying to protect our identity and culture and little wonder why one should be proud of it.
Unfortunately like all things, language can be used a destructive tool in the wrong hands.
[/tscii:46d0ef9cab]

[bingleguy]

An inexplicable fondness/affection for something which is rightfully our own! Pride of possession!

I second PP maam :-)

Really we take pride on our Mother tongue :-)

But doesnt mean that we oppose the others blindly .... unless and until somebody tries to disturb urs :-)

[podalangai]

[tscii:a9958e4154]
If language is just for communication, why then do we have poetry and literature. If Homer, Shakespeare and Kamban wanted to just say their stories, why not write them in simple language that lay people would understand. Why then complicate it by writing in a style that only some can enjoy. :)
Its said that when Alexandria was burning, all Cleopatra worried about was saving the library. :notworthy:
Language is just not that, it embeds a whole lot of other things. It’s a parameter to measure a society - It’s past and present. The richness of a culture (not material richness) is directly proportional to its language. In other words language is the essence of a culture. That is not to say that other factors do not contribute to a culture’s or society’s growth. There are other factors, but language is an important one.
So it is natural that we associate our identity (including our culture) to our language. Take out a language, the culture will surely die. So when we are trying to protect our language, we are actually trying to protect our identity and culture and little wonder why one should be proud of it.

:clap: Very well said. I agree with every word, and couldn't have put it better myself. [/tscii:a9958e4154]

[podalangai]

I understand the issue about being Tamil in Karnataka (it is mere neighbourhood rivalry)
It's more than that. I'd say it's a parity complex - "Kannada is at least as ancient and great as Tamil" - which leads them to view any assertion that Tamil literature is older than Kannada literature as chauvinism, which leads them to be bitterly hostile to Tamil. If you don't mind running the risk of giving yourself an ulcer, take a look at the history of the "Tamil language" article on Wikipedia, or read the discussion page and see what comments various Kannadigas have made. It's only a small minority of Kannadigas who feel this way - but unfortunately, they're a very vocal minority.

Tamils aren't immune to chauvinism and there are plenty in our midst too, but we don't have anti-Kannada policies in TN at anywhere near the level they have about us in Karnataka.


but the same Tamil people when in Mumbai would prefer to converse in Hindi and identify themselves more with the North than the South and would come and preach Hindi to their relatives in the South. I have seen this many times.

In my experience, it is the privileged classes who tend to do this. The poorer Tamils do not. So many examples from Mumbai come to mind - the Tamils who fought for years to have a Tamil-medium municipal secondary school in their area for their children, the Tamil teachers in Sitladevi who voluntarily work longer hours so that extra children can be accomodated in schools with limited capacity, the sheer vibrancy of Tamil-speaking chawls in the Matunga area (where "Maratha Murasu" is the newpaper of choice)... there are many more. :)

[MazhaiKuruvi]

[tscii:8f1898e354]:)
Its said that when Alexandria was burning, all Cleopatra worried about was saving the library. :notworthy:

[/tscii:8f1898e354]

Did that library not have books in many languages. I think what Cleo was trying to protect was knowledge.



but we don't have anti-Kannada policies in TN at anywhere near the level they have about us in Karnataka

I think we also don't have any area in Tamilnadu where the majority population is Kannadiga as in Cantonment area of Bangalore. Many in that area feel they should have been part of Tamilnadu. There's no Tamil hatred as you leave Bangalore and travel further into Karnatka. It is only in the Tamilnadu border areas. I have seen with my own eyes Tamilians in Blore who refuse to speak in Kannada even with Kannadigas.

[Nakeeran]

but the same Tamil people when in Mumbai would prefer to converse in Hindi and identify themselves more with the North than the South and would come and preach Hindi to their relatives in the South. I have seen this many times[/b].

Look. Lets accept that Hindi is the most spoken language in India . Apart from widely being conversed across North India, even southern states have accepted the language.

If u r a bit decent in Hindi, u can pull on in Bangalore, Hyderabad, cochin etc

But its not the same in Chennai. The city continues to be far behind in understanding the need for knowing Hindi.

Why this animosity even now ?

So, there is nothing wrong if someone tries to preach or educate about HIndi. For our own better future & survival.

Lets accept hindi atleast now :D

[dsath]

Nakeeran,
On a practical level, in schools we are taught 2 language subjects (Tamil and English). Now if we introduce another language, won't it be an additional burden to the children.
On the other hand, if we replace English we would be reducing our competitive advantage in the world arena.
If we choose to take Tamil out of the languages taught, then the onus is on parents to teach our children to read and write our mother tongue.
Under the present circumstances, how do you suggest, that we learn Hindi?

As far as Hyderabad, Cochin and Bangalore goes, we can manage perfectly with English. In the interiors of non-Hindi speaking states, i don't think Hindi is very relevant.

[podalangai]

I think we also don't have any area in Tamilnadu where the majority population is Kannadiga as in Cantonment area of Bangalore.
We do, actually, even if not in Chennai, and we also have areas with strong Telugu populations. But I'll say no more as I don't want this thread to lose focus.

[Roshan]

Hi Podalai,

eppadi irukeenga? pArthu, pEsi nALaachu :) Hope all is well with you :)

[MazhaiKuruvi]

If u r a bit decent in Hindi, u can pull on in Bangalore, Hyderabad, cochin etc

But its not the same in Chennai. The city continues to be far behind in understanding the need for knowing Hindi.

Why this animosity even now ?

So, there is nothing wrong if someone tries to preach or educate about HIndi. For our own better future & survival.

Lets accept hindi atleast now :D

"far behind"????? What is far behind is the expectation that people in non-Hindi states should learn Hindi. There's absolutely no need to learn Hindi. It is Hindiwalas that need to learn the language of their destination. When in Rome be a Roman.

In your said cities of Cochin or Bangalore one can more easily get by with Tamil than with Hindi. So let's propose Tamil learning to everyone.

Rather than waste time learning Hindi, let's all learn English, the universal language and use it as the lingua franca.

[NOV]

I recently flew Kuala Lumpur Chennai on Indian airlines. The port of departure was malaysia - where Indian is synonymous with Tamil and where knowledge of Hindi is is absolutely absent and practically of no use. I was heading for Chennai in Tamilnadu.

Yet, the crew had the audacity to only make announcements in English and Hindi and offer 17 channels of only English and Hindi music.

While using the restroom, the pilot said something in Hindi to my sister, who replied, "I am Malaysian and I don't know Hindi." (If only Bharathiraja had been there! :D

That will be my last flight on any Indian airlines and will definitely discourage my friends too.

From now on its Malaysia Airlines for me, where announcements and music are made in Malay, English and Tamil.

:bow:

[ThalaNass]

Why we shud learn Hindi.. no use.. Tamizh then English enough for Tamizhans in India.. enggala mathiri abroad-le irukiravanga antha national languange-a katukirathu romba mukiyam.. :( but again, Hindi is not India's nat language.. :D

[Kreedam]

There is no harm in learning a language, neither is there any harm in not learning it!

Every language is beautiful in its own way. Learn a language to communicate your ideas clearly not for fighting for it . This is my opinion :)

[ThalaNass]

There is no harm in learning a language, neither is there any harm in not learning it!

Every language is beautiful in its own way. Learn a language to communicate your ideas clearly not for fighting for it . This is my opinion :)

but, cant we spoke with Hinustani people in english?? Why must in Hindi? :huh:

[Kreedam]

You dont give the respect to your country's language as much as you give for a foreign language? How is that in your own "linguism" ideology? :wink:


COmmunicate in any lamguage you want but whatever language you use, be clear and speak what you wanted to , thats #1 rule for effective communication.

[ThalaNass]

You dont give the respect to your country's language as much as you give for a foreign language? How is that in your own "linguism" ideology? :wink:


COmmunicate in any lamguage you want but whatever language you use, be clear and speak what you wanted to , thats #1 rule for effective communication.

:oops: yes sir.. :wink:

[Nakeeran]

Why we shud learn Hindi.. no use.. Tamizh then English enough for Tamizhans in India.. enggala mathiri abroad-le irukiravanga antha national languange-a katukirathu romba mukiyam.. :( but again, Hindi is not India's nat language.. :D

As ur country of residence is Malaysia, you dont realize the importance of learning hindi.
The language is spoken extensively in North /west/east India
Even in many southern states, if you dont know the local language, u can survive by conversing in Hindi
But , its not the same for TN. Consequently, a tamilian suffers when he goes for a job in NI or for a vist .
The reasons are more of emotional nature towards mother tongue rather than learning a national language >> hindi.

This culture was well developed by the dravidian parties who had successfully cheated the Tn people by brain washing anti Hindi slogans. Result, the generation today suffers.

As a malaysian , you might not realize the impact of not learning hindi ( or for that matter any other language )

[Sanjeevi]

If you want to think cleverly, mother tongue is must for every one.

I think, tamils are leading in brain power in India when comparing to others, simply becase no domination of other languages over tamil

[dev]

If you want to think cleverly, mother tongue is must for every one.

I think, tamils is leading in brain power in India when comparing to others, simply becase no domination of other languages over tamil

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[dsath]

The language is spoken extensively in North /west/east India

East Indian and Hindi !!!!!!
Last month, i came across a news article in BBC, which said that many Biharis , mostly day laborers were killed in Assam. I scouredthe leading national newspapers on the same day for more information and strangely enough none of them covered that news.
The national newspapers cover trivial issues like A-A's wedding left, right and centre and miss out on important political happenings in a state. Most of Indianess is already North Indianess and if Hindi becomes THE national language, there is no hope for the non-Hindi speaking states.


Even in many southern states, if you dont know the local language, u can survive by conversing in Hindi

I lived in H'bad for a year. Many from the 'Andhra' region did not know Hindi. How many South Indians who hail from places other than capital cities know Hindi?


But , its not the same for TN. Consequently, a tamilian suffers when he goes for a job in NI or for a vist .
The reasons are more of emotional nature towards mother tongue rather than learning a national language >> hindi.

Mobility due to work and business is a necessity. There is no shortcut to it. What use will Hindi be to a Tamilian who is destined to work in Orissa? When people move from one region to another, it is a necessity for them to learn the regional language. If a NI comes to Kerala, then they will have to learn Malayalam. This is no excuse to impose one language on the whole country.

There are plenty of languages in India and imposing one of those languages on others is sure to spell doom.
Just look at the erstwhile Soviet Union. Russian was the predominant language and it was imposed on the whole of the Union and the results are there for us to see.
For all those who think, that India will be a better place by having only one national language, remember there was no ONE India before the British came.
The point is cultural differences should not be taken for granted or ignored, but should be respected.
Live and let live.



This culture was well developed by the dravidian parties who had successfully cheated the Tn people by brain washing anti Hindi slogans. Result, the generation today suffers.

As a malaysian , you might not realize the impact of not learning hindi ( or for that matter any other language )
wo-wo. The Dravidian parties have become a scapegoat for almost all things bad (as perceived by a few) that are happening down South. They have their fair share of evil-doings, but preserving our language is certainly not one them.

[pavalamani pragasam]

:clap: dsath, I can't help admiring your sane views & level-headed postings! Keep it up!

[Nakeeran]

Dsath

Very nice post & thoughtful

but one thing, in Hyderabad, hindi ( even urdu )is equally being spoken as Telugu ! This I have found in my own personal interaction with the local people there. So, one can easily survive by speaking Hindi in Hyd.

Digression :
Second, Dravidian parties have been instrumental in trying to create a divide between India & Tn. They wanted something as a tool. They took HINDI as one object & tried it . So, it was a vested interest / political agenda & nothing to preserve a language.
Most of their current generation know hindi & english which they themselves couldnt practice what they preached !

[Roshan]

Dsath :clap:

I have an experience to share and I think this is the 'right' time for it.

Last November - I had to travel to Kathmandu via Chennai and Delhi. My flight scehdule was from Colombo - Chennai - Delhi and then to Kathmandu. I was not aware that both the domestic and international terminals were in two different locations in Delhi and as such I had to get hold of the airpot bus - which had a service every half an hour ( this half an hour business created another mess when coming back from Kathmandu and it's again a differnet experience altogether). But when I landed there I was completely clueless about these things and was under the impression that both terminals were in one location as no officers at the 'check out' counter ever informed me knowing well that I was on a transit. Only once I came out I realised the problem and tried to get information as regards the procedure of travelling to the international terminal. My first problem was - who ever I spoke to, responded in Hindi despite my talking in English and after some struggle I was directed to the relevant air line counter , where there were 3 guys at service. This is how the conversation went there ..

Me : Excuse me

All 3 guys look at me

Me again : I am on a transit to Kathmandu and I want to know as to how I can get to the International terminal

As a response one guy starts speaking in Hindi .. and I interrupt and me again : I am sorry I dont understand Hindi

The guy frowns at me and responds in a rude manner in English saying "We dont understand English either" :x :evil: :twisted:

That was the limit for all that rubbish I experienced at the airport so I obviously lost my patience and I slightly raised my voice and asked him what does he expect. He didnt have an answer for that . I continued saying "look here.. first of all I am not an Indian - even if I am an Indian I am not bound to know Hindi. And you are working for an International Airline sitting here at an International airport and what do you expect ? - all passengers to speak in Hindi? " This, he didnt expect and he was a bit shocked but I continued demanding a 'feedback form' threatening that I am going to write to the management of the relevant airline. The guys immediately surrendered and came out of their way in a pleasing manner, apologising and helped me with all relevant information to get to the international terminal.

But the bitter feeling I got there still continues to remain the same and I could imagine how it would have been some 60 years back or even before that :evil: :cry: :(

[Nakeeran]

I am not seeing any other state opposing Hindi like the way tamil nadu still doing !

If hindi had been forcefully imposed on those states, even they would have revolted the same manner . But thats not the case.

Wonder , why such a hatred towards a common language just becaz of wrong attitude of individuals !

As of now, the language is not being imposed on any state. May be , its the second language or 3rd in schools . Not sure but the option is being given.

The delhi airport is a typical case of NI guys taking guard in those posts & though they speak fluent english, they prefer their MOTHER TONGUE ! that could be the reason .

[Roshan]

The delhi airport is a typical case of NI guys taking guard in those posts & though they speak fluent english, they prefer their MOTHER TONGUE ! that could be the reason .

Come on Nakeeran ! This statement shows that you are no different from thos guys. Those guys are not airport staff but staff of a particular airline ( I have avoided mentioning the name). Working for an international airline and expecting all international passengers to speak in Hindi even when some one responds saying that he/she doesnt understand Hindi is what kind of preference? It is nothing but superiority and arrogance. :x :evil: :twisted:

[mgb]

The delhi airport is a typical case of NI guys taking guard in those posts & though they speak fluent english, they prefer their MOTHER TONGUE ! that could be the reason .

Come on Nakeeran ! This statement shows that you are no different from thos guys. Those guys are not airport staff but staff of a particular airline ( I have avoided mentioning the name). Working for an international airline and expecting all international passengers to speak in Hindi even when some one responds saying that he/she doesnt understand Hindi is what kind of preference? It is nothing but superiority and arrogance. :x :evil: :twisted:
roshan.. i could guess the airline.. even if you have spoken in hindi, you would have got a blunt reply from those marons.. you did the right thing.. nothing works like that

[dsath]

I am not seeing any other state opposing Hindi like the way tamil nadu still doing !

If hindi had been forcefully imposed on those states, even they would have revolted the same manner . But thats not the case.

Well, you are seeing wrong.
Please read this http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/6683767.stm.
I am not supporting what ULFA did by any means. But this is what happens if the centre keeps pushing other states.
You will be surprised to know that many states have anti-hindi sentiments - Manipur, Nagaland, West Bengal to name a few (Ah well who cares abt them is the general attitude at the centre).
The problem is no one is anti-any language. But if they are pushed to accept a language, which is not related to them, they develop these sentiments. And there are miscreant who will utilize it as a weapon.


Wonder , why such a hatred towards a common language just becaz of wrong attitude of individuals !

I hope such individuals recognize the fact that there is NO common language in India, if there is one then it is English.



The delhi airport is a typical case of NI guys taking guard in those posts & though they speak fluent english, they prefer their MOTHER TONGUE ! that could be the reason .
If they can be justified of speaking their Mother tongue - okay, how can you justify their attitude of expecting us to speak THEIR mother tongue?

Imposing/or forcing to accept one language is the first step toward totalitarian government. Thank God for democracy.

Honestly what difference is the call for a same language different from a call for a same religion.

About Hyd, i said people from the 'Andhra' region living in Hyd don't know Hindi. One of my neighbours was born and raised in Hyd and she spoke Hindi and the other one was from Andhra and she didn't know Hindi. But i should mention here that both the ladies were very kind and helped me a lot and taught me some Telugu. :)

[Roshan]

The delhi airport is a typical case of NI guys taking guard in those posts & though they speak fluent english, they prefer their MOTHER TONGUE ! that could be the reason .

Come on Nakeeran ! This statement shows that you are no different from thos guys. Those guys are not airport staff but staff of a particular airline ( I have avoided mentioning the name). Working for an international airline and expecting all international passengers to speak in Hindi even when some one responds saying that he/she doesnt understand Hindi is what kind of preference? It is nothing but superiority and arrogance. :x :evil: :twisted:
roshan.. i could guess the airline.. even if you have spoken in hindi, you would have got a blunt reply from those marons.. you did the right thing.. nothing works like that

But why they all ( I mean who ever I conversed at the airport) without exception respond in Hindi - when questioned in English I dont understand. This never happens in any other country or cities as long as my understanding and experience goes. At Chennai airport they respond in Thamiz only when you talk in Thamizh otherwise only English. Same in Cochin and Trivendram. Delhi-na periya ithuvA? :x :evil: :twisted:

[MazhaiKuruvi]

Why do we have to sell out Tamil to Hindi. What is Hindi? Some idiot said it is the national language, but it is spoken perhaps by perhpas about 30% of the people, nothing more. Others have been forced to learn Hindi, Tamilnadu is the only state which had some backbone to stand up to this thrust, perhaps because we had a non-congress govt. Most states accepted Hindi during Cong rule. Instead of being proud to have stood up to an illegal imposition why is Nakeeran supporting the Hindi thrust. What is your mother tongue sir?

[mgb]

Delhi-na periya ithuvA? :x :evil: :twisted: apdidhaan nenachukaranga :rotfl:
i guess they would have got habituated with subcontinental passengers (pakistan, bangladesh, nepal n northern part of india) being more comfortable in hindi than english :lol:
you shouldnt have left it at that.. after coming back you shouldve sent in a complaint to the customer service department with names of those guys.. atleast they would have been questioned for their behaviour :)

[Roshan]

Delhi-na periya ithuvA? :x :evil: :twisted: apdidhaan nenachukaranga :rotfl:
i guess they would have got habituated with subcontinental passengers (pakistan, bangladesh, nepal n northern part of india) being more comfortable in hindi than english :lol:
you shouldnt have left it at that.. after coming back you shouldve sent in a complaint to the customer service department with names of those guys.. atleast they would have been questioned for their behaviour :)

True ! :oops:

[Roshan]

Why do we have to sell out Tamil to Hindi. What is Hindi? Some idiot said it is the national language, but it is spoken perhaps by perhpas about 30% of the people, nothing more. Others have been forced to learn Hindi, Tamilnadu is the only state which had some backbone to stand up to this thrust, perhaps because we had a non-congress govt. Most states accepted Hindi during Cong rule. Instead of being proud to have stood up to an illegal imposition why is Nakeeran supporting the Hindi thrust. What is your mother tongue sir?

Well said Mazhaikuruvi !! :thumbsup:

[kannannn]

I am not seeing any other state opposing Hindi like the way tamil nadu still doing !

If hindi had been forcefully imposed on those states, even they would have revolted the same manner . But thats not the case.

Well, you are seeing wrong.
Please read this http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/6683767.stm.
I am not supporting what ULFA did by any means. But this is what happens if the centre keeps pushing other states.
You will be surprised to know that many states have anti-hindi sentiments - Manipur, Nagaland, West Bengal to name a few (Ah well who cares abt them is the general attitude at the centre).
The problem is no one is anti-any language. But if they are pushed to accept a language, which is not related to them, they develop these sentiments. And there are miscreant who will utilize it as a weapon.

I just have this to say:
All these bombings against Hindi migrant labourers are part of ULFA's strategy to gain the upper hand when talks start with the center. It has nothing to do with center's language policies.

Please continue the discussion :D

[Nakeeran]

Dsath

Ur. siting examples of Nagaland, etc are really very tiny states ! Will appreciate if you had given ref. to some biggers states like MP or AP even or Maharashtra . Even there, if you dont know the local language, U can atleast have your intentions communicated by conversing in Hindi.

And I am quite aware of your ref. on violence . Look , these are all isolated incidents & they are pure local politics & nothing else.
This had happened even in Maharastra when Shivsena guys sent back guys fm Bihar/Up who were coming by train to write Railway services exam . There was big uproar but things settled down soon

As far as my personal experience goes, I have met guys fm various states especially Gujarathis, Marathis, Telugus, Kannadigas , Keralites , Orissa guys etc >>> I could easily get along with them & comfortable in Hindi though they started with their native language. On realizing that I doesnt know , they all conversed in Hindi & we could easily settle down to comfort zone :D

Ur. comment about Westbengal :shock:

Come on....... I have visited this state also extensively & know several guys who live there. Though the bengali is dominant, still U can get your things done if you know Hindi ! :D

Who is imposing Hindi in TN today !? Noway, as long as Mukaa is on as the Union govt needs his support .

And this is what I wish fm TN guys.

[dsath]

I just have this to say:
All these bombings against Hindi migrant labourers are part of ULFA's strategy to gain the upper hand when talks start with the center. It has nothing to do with center's language policies.

You are absolutely right. But there is much more to it. The Hindi speaking people do not integrate with the locals and this causes wide spread resentment. It should be noted that the Assam student union which calls for bandh at the drop of a hat, does not respond for these killings, except issuing a condemning statement.
There is a huge immigrant community n Assam from all region including Punjab. The Punjabis as usual have integrated well with the locals, but the hindi speaking community hasn't. ULFA has utilized it for its own good.
The problem is that the general Hindi speaking population expect others to integrate with them, irrespective of where they live.

[dsath]

[tscii:c3f6c4fb4a]
Dsath

Ur. siting examples of Nagaland, etc are really very tiny states ! Will appreciate if you had given ref. to some biggers states like MP or AP even or Maharashtra . Even there, if you dont know the local languageent, U can atleast have your intentions communicated by conversing in Hindi.

Does a small state not deserve any recognition? Okay to satisfy you, The Karnataka Govt has recently made Kannada (and English) compulsory in primary school education.


And I am quite aware of your ref. on violence . Look , these are all isolated incidents & they are pure local politics & nothing else.
This had happened even in Maharastra when Shivsena guys sent back guys fm Bihar/Up who were coming by train to write Railway services exam . There was big uproar but things settled down soon

This is the problem. If you brush off sensible voices, then extremist voices will come to the lead.


As far as my personal experience goes, I have met guys fm various states especially Gujarathis, Marathis, Telugus, Kannadigas , Keralites , Orissa guys etc >>> I could easily get along with them & comfortable in Hindi though they started with their native language. On realizing that I doesnt know , they all conversed in Hindi & we could easily settle down to comfort zone :D

Nakeeran, i too have friends from different states and we have no problem communicating in English. In fact one of my Gujarati friends doesn’t know Hindi.


Ur. comment about Westbengal :shock:

Come on....... I have visited this state also extensively & know several guys who live there. Though the bengali is dominant, still U can get your things done if you know Hindi ! :D

I haven't traveled in West Bengal so i cannot comment on how one can get on there. But i know some Bengalis and they are as regionalist as any Tamilian can be. In fact their culture and values are very similar to ours.


Who is imposing Hindi in TN today !? Noway, as long as Mukaa is on as the Union govt needs his support .

And this is what I wish fm TN guys.
Not only Mukaa, any Tamil politician worth his/her salt will never dare impose Hindi on our state.
[/tscii:c3f6c4fb4a]

[kannannn]

I just have this to say:
All these bombings against Hindi migrant labourers are part of ULFA's strategy to gain the upper hand when talks start with the center. It has nothing to do with center's language policies.

You are absolutely right. But there is much more to it. The Hindi speaking people do not integrate with the locals and this causes wide spread resentment. It should be noted that the Assam student union which calls for bandh at the drop of a hat, does not respond for these killings, except issuing a condemning statement.
There is a huge immigrant community n Assam from all region including Punjab. The Punjabis as usual have integrated well with the locals, but the hindi speaking community hasn't. ULFA has utilized it for its own good.
The problem is that the general Hindi speaking population expect others to integrate with them, irrespective of where they live.
dsath, I have to disagree with you on this. ULFA lost its ideological footing years ago. This was not how the movement started. Their main aim was to cleanse Assam of illegal Bangla immigrants. Anti-Bangla changed to anti-India only after contacts with ISI and Bangladeshi governement. Killing of Hindi speaking migrants is a way of making the centre take notice and hitting where it hurts. The short-term migrants have nothing to do with this :D

[podalangai]

What is Hindi? Some idiot said it is the national language
And that is totally untrue. Hindi is not India's national language!
The Constitution does not use the expression "national language" anywhere. Even the Hindi translation of the Constitution is very careful to only refer to Hindi as "rajbhasha" ('official language'). Never as "rashtrabhasha" ('national langauge).


Others have been forced to learn Hindi, Tamilnadu is the only state which had some backbone to stand up to this thrust, perhaps because we had a non-congress govt.
That Hindi is spoken by most people in other states is also a canard which Hindi's proponents like to spread. It isn't true. Try getting by in Kerala with Hindi. Try getting by in any part of AP outside Hyderabad with Hindi. You'll find a few who understand it, but the vast majority don't. Tamils aren't unique in our rejection of Hindi. Yes, we were the ones who fought hardest for the right to not have Hindi imposed on us, but plenty of others have taken advantage of that right once we secured it.

[dsath]

[tscii:b5f0ac6942]



I just have this to say:
All these bombings against Hindi migrant labourers are part of ULFA's strategy to gain the upper hand when talks start with the center. It has nothing to do with center's language policies.

You are absolutely right. But there is much more to it. The Hindi speaking people do not integrate with the locals and this causes wide spread resentment. It should be noted that the Assam student union which calls for bandh at the drop of a hat, does not respond for these killings, except issuing a condemning statement.
There is a huge immigrant community n Assam from all region including Punjab. The Punjabis as usual have integrated well with the locals, but the hindi speaking community hasn't. ULFA has utilized it for its own good.
The problem is that the general Hindi speaking population expect others to integrate with them, irrespective of where they live.
dsath, I have to disagree with you on this. ULFA lost its ideological footing years ago. This was not how the movement started. Their main aim was to cleanse Assam of illegal Bangla immigrants. Anti-Bangla changed to anti-India only after contacts with ISI and Bangladeshi governement. Killing of Hindi speaking migrants is a way of making the centre take notice and hitting where it hurts. The short-term migrants have nothing to do with this :D
Kannan,ULFA indeed has lost its ideology and i am not denying their selfish tactics and motives. Assam has a huge Punjabi immigrant population, but they are not singled out for attack.
The hind speaking population on the other hand has been indifferent to the local culture. In fact a majority don’t participate in Bihu celebrations. ULFA has utilized this effectively. They don’t loose the sympathy factor (whatever little it has) by attacking the Hindi speaking people. The long winded point I am wishing to make is that the Hindi speaking community’s attitude towards other language speaking community is very defiant. They don’t want to integrate to the rest of India, but want the rest of India to integrate with them (and this is used against them by outfits like ULFA).
This is more pronounced in recent days due to increased mobility. Incidents similar to Roshan’s are becoming far more common.
And being a sentimental bunch we retort back by being defiant to Hindi.
And the second reason as to why I got Assam into the picture was to highlight the fact that not only TN but other states have anti-Hindi sentiments too (Did the Punjabis not fight for a Punjabi state?), but not as much as we do as Podalangai pointed out.
I hope the Indian Govt stops its Hindi imposing tactics and celebrate our diversity.

Actually the government should enforce a rule to have a slot for airing other language programs in all the channels. May be one or half hour a week or may be a movie a week of another Indian language with subtitles in the local regional language should be aired by all the TV channels. Just imagine watching a Bengali or Marathi movie with Tamil subtitles on Sun TV. This will help reduce our differences and increase harmony.
[/tscii:b5f0ac6942]

[MazhaiKuruvi]

Thank you for enlightening me podalangai.

I guess the question then to Hindi imposers is, Hindi enna periya podalangainu ennama naanga ellam Hindiya pEsa :wink:

[Selvam_mayyam]

mother tongue is very very important...

[Tharuna]

We belong to the same country and isn't is fair enough to communicate with one of our languages instead of communicating in English.We cannot learn all the regional languages. So why dont we learn Hindi ? . In that way I hope we will feel unified.

Mother tongue is essential . But it does'nt hurt learning another language.

Am in sydney and I observe ppl from all nationalities. When chinese meet, they speak in chinese. Koreans converse in their own language. If Indians meet, they always talk in English! . I feel we do not have one common language to bind us.

I dont think it is a good idea to resent Hindhi. I feel it is also our language . North Indians are also our country men.

[pavalamani pragasam]

Tharuna, you must remember the peculiar nature of India, how so many different states were united for the sake of creating one large country. Nowhere else in the world can this peculiarity be seen. The string that was handy for keeping together the pearls is English. It also happens to help us communicate well with the other nations of the world. As many have pointed out earlier Hindi is not going to be of help in all parts of all Indian states, not as much as English. Without feeling it as extra burden children learn English in schools besides their mother tongue and stand to gain by it globally. what has been here for centuries is easier than a new language which has no valid reason to cite as its merits for the learners.

[Nakeeran]

PP Madam

I think Hindi is better accepted by a majority in India when compared with English.

When there is a warm welcome for English, why not Hindi ? Today , nobody is imposing it . Its just optional for one to chose . Lets learn our own language so that there is harmony within our countrymen.

English>>> ofcourse is a must when we travel overseas.

[pavalamani pragasam]

Yes, as a third language people have no objection to learning Hindi out interest. People who are compelled to live outside Tamil Nadu easily pick it up for the sake of easy communication with those around them. People without this urgency benefit by knowing Hindi mainly for the entertainment aspect of viewing Hindi movies TV channels.

[pavalamani pragasam]

Why learn Hindi for harmony? Why not any other language- Tamil, Kannada, Malayalam, Telegu or Oriya? Statistics about population of people with Hindi as mother tongue is not remarkably manifold than other language people, is it? There is a false image created for false reasons, political advantages that people whose mother tongue is Hindi is the majority of our country's population.

[Nakeeran]

Why learn Hindi for harmony? Why not any other language- Tamil, Kannada, Malayalam, Telegu or Oriya? Statistics about population of people with Hindi as mother tongue is not remarkably manifold than other language people, is it? There is a false image created for false reasons, political advantages that people whose mother tongue is Hindi is the majority of our country's population.

Close to 35% of Indians speak Hindi .

Hindi owns a very high % when compared to other Indian languages. Hindi leads by a fair distance .

[Nakeeran]

Why learn Hindi for harmony? Why not any other language- Tamil, Kannada, Malayalam, Telegu or Oriya? Statistics about population of people with Hindi as mother tongue is not remarkably manifold than other language people, is it? There is a false image created for false reasons, political advantages that people whose mother tongue is Hindi is the majority of our country's population.

First of all, is there any great level of unity within the southern states ? For ex : an average tamilian often teases other languages ,be it malayalam or kannada or telugu. So , where is the question of a tamilian accepting a language of ur neighbourhood :shock: ?

[pavalamani pragasam]

What percentage of people speak/understand Hindi does not matter, how many have it as their mother tongue is what matters for our statistics. As I already said the impact of the glitter & glamour of the tinsel world is very great in creating impressions. Last week our niece told us that during their visit to Egypt they were surprised to see everybody speaking of India as the country of Amithab Bachan. Next comes Shah Rukh Khan. So the global image of India is an essentially Hindi country. The likes of Aishwarya Rai & Shilpa Shettys too contribute to this impression. Bollywood rocks! But do we have to subscribe to this foreigner's layman stupidity? Perhaps this is a challenge to be taken up by our Kollywood heroes!

In a country of such gigantic size people of all states must be 'educated' about political virtues like unity! A Herculean task indeed! Not an impossible one, though. Let us work for it with a WILL.

[Nakeeran]

Why dont u consider Amitabh or Shah Rukh or Aishwarya etc as part of your liked people & your parivaar ?

Why should you identify yourself as from another group !

After all, they are also our Indians only.

Just because they speak hindi doesnt mean that they are Videshis !

[NOV]

1. in how many countries outside India is Hindi recognised as an official language?

2. which language is given that status in foreign countries and in how many countries?

[madhu]

I think mother tongue of Amitabh is Bengali and Aishwarya is Thulu. what about Sharukh khaN ?

[pavalamani pragasam]

Madhu, whatever their mother tongue be, they enjoy their present fame & name by virtue of the HINDI filmdom! That gives them their identity. Just reminding what the general world around us is thinking about India & Indians! :huh:

[dsath]

This Hindi debate is not going to end sadly. When we have a language in place that can be used for inter communication, i can't really understand the requirement for another. Is it going to increase our productivity? What real benefits are we going to get by learning hindi? Making a Indian language as THE national or official language is purely for sentimental and emotional reason - We Indians should communicate to each other in an Indian language and not a foreign language.
Practically, its a huge task and a waste of resource - all this for an emotional reason. :roll:

When we say the Chinese learn a single language, we must remember that China is one country for a long time and more importantly they became one by internal invasion and expansion, not due to foreign invasion.
We on the other hand are a relatively new nation and we should proceed with caution in imposing something on all the states, be it religion or language or law.

[unhappyboy]

-deleted with warning-

[pavalamani pragasam]

:roll: :huh:

[Lambretta]

I think mother tongue of Amitabh is Bengali
:shock: Yaar sonnanga?! :? :roll:
Hez actually 1/2 punjabi (his mother)...

[madhu]

I think mother tongue of Amitabh is Bengali
:shock: Yaar sonnanga?! :? :roll:
Hez actually 1/2 punjabi (his mother)...

you mean pungali ?

epdiyO reNdumE "i"-la mudiyudhu.. adhu pOdhum :noteeth:

[Lambretta]

you mean pungali?
Enna pungali? :? U mean pun with gaalis (abusives :P) ?! :lol:

[madhu]

you mean pungali?
Enna pungali? :? U mean pun with gaalis (abusives :P) ?! :lol:

no no.. pun...( jabi ) + ( ben ) gali..

benjabi nalla illai.. moreover... idhu pangALi mAdhiriyum irukku.. :noteeth:

[P_R]

When there is a warm welcome for English, why not Hindi ? Because it is nobody's language. So it can be everybody's language. The only possible common language that we can communicate with each other as equals. Any other Indian language has this undercurrent: someone's language being recognized, and someone else having to 'accept' it to 'become' a complete Indian.

Today , nobody is imposing it . Its just optional for one to chose . Lets learn our own language so that there is harmony within our countrymen.When a leading news channel like NDTV (and English news channel) shows someone talking in Hindi and does not bother to subtitle it, what does it mean ?

Recently JJ was addressing a news-conference in Chennai along with political leaders from the North. When she was asked a question in Tamil, she translated it and responded in English as it was a National conference with leaders from Andhra,Assam,Haryana and UP were present. However the leaders from UP and HaryAna had absolutely no qualms making their statements in Hindi, as if it was reasonable to expect everyone in the audience to understand what they were saying :argh: Annoying attitude.

[pavalamani pragasam]

PR! :ty: Your claivoyance is admirable!

[Sanguine Sridhar]

We belong to the same country and isn't is fair enough to communicate with one of our languages instead of communicating in English.We cannot learn all the regional languages. So why dont we learn Hindi ? . In that way I hope we will feel unified.

Mother tongue is essential . But it does'nt hurt learning another language.

Am in sydney and I observe ppl from all nationalities. When chinese meet, they speak in chinese. Koreans converse in their own language. If Indians meet, they always talk in English! . I feel we do not have one common language to bind us.
I dont think it is a good idea to resent Hindhi. I feel it is also our language . North Indians are also our country men.

Even when Tamizh ppl meet they speak in English! When I goto a shop or anywhere here in chennai mostly the salesman speaks in English even though his vocabulary and articulation is worst.What stops them? Agreed Hindi is our national language and English is the universal language. But what is the point in neglecting our own mother tongue? I really get pissed off when I see parents forcing their kids to call them as Daddy and Mummy!! :x

[pavalamani pragasam]

Yesterday we had invited my Chennai sis-in-law's family for lunch-my nephew(engineer doing MBA) asked in surprise why the nameplate in our new house(both our names & a name for our house) is in Tamil. I aptly replied, "maduraiyila, namma thaay moziyila illaama vERa ethula irukkum?" He was impressed & added thoughtfully how the difference in the nameboards everywhere struck him glaringly- all in Tamil in MDU whereas mainly English in Chennai. The people of our state need to be educated on such an awareness, a conscious effort to maintain our mother tongue in healthy vogue, to rightly feel proud about our precious possession.

[P_R]

Exactly Mrs.PP.

When I goto a shop or anywhere here in chennai mostly the salesman speaks in English even though his vocabulary and articulation is worst. :exactly: My recent experience in a sweet-snack store in Chennai

me: mundhiri irukkA ?
him: Cashew-vA (shows me a pack of raw cashews)
me: illenga varutha munthiri
him: Oh roasted-A ?
me: :x
(he gives me a pack with masala)
him: masAla illAma....verum miLagu-podi pOttadhu irukkA
me: Oh pepper-A ?
him: :argh:
(after billing)
me: ainooru roobaikku sillarai irukkA
him: five hundred rupees-ku change illayE
me: :curse:

[thamiz]

What percentage of people speak/understand Hindi does not matter, how many have it as their mother tongue is what matters for our statistics..

Great point! 8-)

[Roshan]

you mean pungali?
Enna pungali? :? U mean pun with gaalis (abusives :P) ?! :lol:

no no.. pun...( jabi ) + ( ben ) gali..

benjabi nalla illai.. moreover... idhu pangALi mAdhiriyum irukku.. :noteeth:

Madhu.... :argh: :curse: :rant: :lol:

[Lambretta]

no no.. pun...( jabi ) + ( ben ) gali..
benjabi nalla illai.. moreover... idhu pangALi mAdhiriyum irukku.. :noteeth:
Enaku teriyum PaapA...:P
Was just kidding! :wink: :lol2:

[Wibha]

Exactly Mrs.PP.

When I goto a shop or anywhere here in chennai mostly the salesman speaks in English even though his vocabulary and articulation is worst. :exactly: My recent experience in a sweet-snack store in Chennai

me: mundhiri irukkA ?
him: Cashew-vA (shows me a pack of raw cashews)
me: illenga varutha munthiri
him: Oh roasted-A ?
me: :x
(he gives me a pack with masala)
him: masAla illAma....verum miLagu-podi pOttadhu irukkA
me: Oh pepper-A ?
him: :argh:
(after billing)
me: ainooru roobaikku sillarai irukkA
him: five hundred rupees-ku change illayE
me: :curse:

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[Rohit]

[tscii:c3e0561379]There are two main aspects of language.

1. Language as a communication system, uses visual (read and write), auditory (spoken) or both sensory channels; but at the same time, it demands from both parties to be capable of comprehension, understanding and remembering messages that are intended for communication.

2. Language reflects thoughts, worldviews; and thus, reflects culture of the speakers of that particular language; and therefore, not only it provides trace to one’s own roots but also provides a strong sense of one’s identity.Thus, language essentially binds individuals to their social identities; and the link between language and identity often becomes so strong that a single feature of language use may suffice to identify someone’s membership to a given group. Therefore, language not only offers the means of creating such a link but also offers the means of expressing it.

There are two main reasons that link language and identity.
1. Human psychology itself, which involves identification of mother and newborn child, which later forms the link between mother tongue and one’s identity.

2. The linkage of language and social identity by constitution and by law, which can function as a higher symbol. If the languages involved in the above mentioned two cases are different, it creates a conflict between the two links, as in the latter case, the same identity prevails as long as the same language is spoken; and such conflicting situations may sometimes push individuals to compromise their allegiance and compel them to switch their membership of a smaller group in favour of the membership of a much wider group.[/tscii:c3e0561379]

[Lambretta]

When I goto a shop or anywhere here in chennai mostly the salesman speaks in English even though his vocabulary and articulation is worst. :exactly: My recent experience in a sweet-snack store in Chennai......
I face the same thing when I went to Madras or visited Tamil shops/restaurants & even when I'd speak Tamil fluently enough, most of the shop owners would reply in English.....even though they couldnt speak Eng. fluently... :roll: :huh: :|
Surprising to know this is the same case evn w/ u guys who r locals! :P :?

[Tharuna]

Many English medium schools in chennai offer an option for second language. (Tamil / Hindi). There is an increasing tendency among parents to opt Hindi rather than Tamil.

I asked some of the parents why they opted Hindi and the answer I got was 'Tamil eppadi irundhaalum kathuppanga. Oru extra language kathukkatumae'.

The result is many kids cannot read/write tamil but they can read/write Hindi.

The state government offers four choices of second languages in higher secondary examination : Tamil, Hindi,Sanskrit,French.
Here again there is a tendency for students to opt for Sanskrit/French bcos its easier to score in these languages than Tamil. I've seen many children opt for Hindi upto std 8 or std 10 and afterwards switch to French.

Whereas in the CBSE syllabus, they have a second language as well as third language. So the children learn tamil as well as Hindi.

While people speak of imposing hindi, many parents and children willingly neglect tamil.

So, what's the point in opposing Hindi in schools ?.

Even though I learnt Tamil in school, I learnt Hindi from Dakshin Bhaarat Hindi Prachar Sabha. Every year, there was an increase in the number of students who came to Hindi prachar sabha.

While we have come to accept salwars, chat foods, Raksha bandan, holi etc from north, why not a little of Hindi too ?.

Am not saying we shd learn Hindi at the expense of Tamil.
Why not come to terms with it as a common language?

[Sanguine Sridhar]

Many English medium schools in chennai offer an option for second language. (Tamil / Hindi). There is an increasing tendency among parents to opt Hindi rather than Tamil.

I asked some of the parents why they opted Hindi and the answer I got was 'Tamil eppadi irundhaalum kathuppanga. Oru extra language kathukkatumae'.

The result is many kids cannot read/write tamil but they can read/write Hindi.

Dont you think its a shame?! If this is going to continue the future of tamizh will be like Sanskrit.


The state government offers four choices of second languages in higher secondary examination : Tamil, Hindi,Sanskrit,French.
Here again there is a tendency for students to opt for Sanskrit/French bcos its easier to score in these languages than Tamil. I've seen many children opt for Hindi upto std 8 or std 10 and afterwards switch to French.

Promise, when I was studying I didn study language for marks.I really enjoyed each and every line written in the tamizh book. I didn even use 'Konaar Thamizh Urai'. It was completly the teachings of my Thamizh ayya.He was Great,Cerebral. Thiruvasagam,Thirukural, Silapadhigaram, Aganaanuru,Puranaanuru, Bakthi Ilakiyangal, Seerapuranam idhellam padikka koduthuvachrukanum.Only 'we' tamizh ppl can enjoy the richness in these poems. Aazhvaargalum,Naayanmaargalum idhukkaagava thamizh valarthaanga? Sangam vaithu thamizh valartthu innaikku vetru mozhi aadhikathaal thamizhai kaavu koduthuttu irrukirom enbadhu sathyamana unmai!



While we have come to accept salwars, chat foods, Raksha bandan, holi etc from north, why not a little of Hindi too ?
Am not saying we shd learn Hindi at the expense of Tamil.
Why not come to terms with it as a common language?

well you have the answer in your question, ppl here are learning Hindi at the expense of Tamizh

You said this

The result is many kids cannot read/write tamil but they can read/write Hindi

I am not against in learning Hindi.But it is not fair to kill our own mother tongue...! Preposterous,absurd.

[thamizhvaanan]

Tharuna, wats the point in making hindi the official language? Since a foreign language is a lingua franca in india, and we ppl are too egoistic, we still have one vernacular language as the other official language. Right now, official transcripts are in both english and tamil (mostly)

Imagine the situation had we accepted Hindi as a national language. By 80's all the educated youth will be well versed in Hindi. By 90s the local vernacular language will be phased out from the system and hindi will be used everywhere.

A uneducated farmer born in interior madhya pradesh can understand all government orders, he can understand announcements made in railway station. whereas an uneducated person from interior TN will be like a foreigner in his own land. He wont be able to understand anything official. He will always need a translator. All hindi speaking persons will be born as indian citizens whereas rest of the nation will have to learn hindi inorder to graduate as Indian citizens :banghead: The common man will be divorced from all official proceedings. Democracy will become a mockery. 70% of the indian population will become 2nd class citizens.

To top it all, we will have hindi commentary for the entire 100 overs in cricket match :cry3: :cry3: :hammer: :hammer:

Idhu namakku thevaya? :huh:

[pavalamani pragasam]

Excellent post, TV! :clap:
Kudos to PR & RR also!
Tharuna, please look at the issue from various important angles. We people are a proud, ancient race with sentimental attachment to many concepts. Our mother tongue is our property which we shall not sell or pawn away. We must be very alert to ward off any danger approaching our "moochchu"!

[Sanguine Sridhar]

To top it all, we will have hindi commentary for the entire 100 overs in cricket match :cry3: :cry3: :hammer: :hammer:

Idhu namakku thevaya? :huh:

excellent tv! regarding this cricket commentary, if a person is not aware of Hindi he defly cant follow the commentary, not even a single word. On the other hand have you watched India Vs South Africa series which was telecasted in Sun News, with a worst tamizh commentary?! They could have used English instead of this Thanglish! Vaazhga Thamizh! :oops2:

[solona]

When I goto a shop or anywhere here in chennai mostly the salesman speaks in English even though his vocabulary and articulation is worst. :exactly: My recent experience in a sweet-snack store in Chennai......
I face the same thing when I went to Madras or visited Tamil shops/restaurants & even when I'd speak Tamil fluently enough, most of the shop owners would reply in English.....even though they couldnt speak Eng. fluently... :roll: :huh: :|
Surprising to know this is the same case evn w/ u guys who r locals! :P :?

Ithallam kooda thevalam; ennoda hubby tamizhum frenchum mattum than paesuvar, Avarai tamizh nadu thanae endru thaniyaga engayum vida moudiyadu, oru auto driver la irundu, sweet shop varai ellarum avarai English layae varuthu enduthiduranga.
Avar ippallam India vantha enga ponnallum ennaiyum koda kupidrar.
Last time went to buy some speakers at the BOSE show room at Ispahani centre, antha salesman oru american accent la lecturae koduthitaar, en hubby kaadhi kalingee, thikki thavichathai inndraikku ninaithallum sirippu varukindrathu

[joe]

Tharuna, you must remember the peculiar nature of India, how so many different states were united for the sake of creating one large country. Nowhere else in the world can this peculiarity be seen. The string that was handy for keeping together the pearls is English. It also happens to help us communicate well with the other nations of the world. As many have pointed out earlier Hindi is not going to be of help in all parts of all Indian states, not as much as English. Without feeling it as extra burden children learn English in schools besides their mother tongue and stand to gain by it globally. what has been here for centuries is easier than a new language which has no valid reason to cite as its merits for the learners.

:thumbsup:

[joe]

The delhi airport is a typical case of NI guys taking guard in those posts & though they speak fluent english, they prefer their MOTHER TONGUE ! that could be the reason .

Come on Nakeeran ! This statement shows that you are no different from thos guys. Those guys are not airport staff but staff of a particular airline ( I have avoided mentioning the name). Working for an international airline and expecting all international passengers to speak in Hindi even when some one responds saying that he/she doesnt understand Hindi is what kind of preference? It is nothing but superiority and arrogance. :x :evil: :twisted:

:exactly:

Some people are demanding us to obey and surrender for the ignorance and arrogance of 'well frogs' rather than teach them a lesson :x I don't understand why these people don't have any self respect.

Atleast we tamilians don't expect others to speak in tamil.

I even met a north indian tourist who came to singapore and wanted me to speak in Hindi ..By knowing that I don't know hindi he made strange expressions ..We don't expect these guys to speak in Tamil ,which is official language in singapore ..But the funny thing is this guy didn't even know I am a Tamil from India or Singapore tamilian ..He may even expect singapore tamilian to speak in hindi ...ithungakukku vakkalathu vera :evil:

[Tharuna]

Vaayila Nalla varuthu .ithungakukku vakkalathu vera :evil:

joe, enga opinion sonnadhula enna thappu?

idhu ungalukkae nyayama?

[joe]

Vaayila Nalla varuthu .ithungakukku vakkalathu vera :evil:

joe, enga opinion sonnadhula enna thappu?

idhu ungalukkae nyayama?

I didn't mean you guys arguing here ,but the guy who expected me to speak in hindi even in singapore.

Anyway ,If it hurts you I am sorry and let me remove that..

[kannannn]

When I goto a shop or anywhere here in chennai mostly the salesman speaks in English even though his vocabulary and articulation is worst.What stops them? Agreed Hindi is our national language and English is the universal language. But what is the point in neglecting our own mother tongue? I really get pissed off when I see parents forcing their kids to call them as Daddy and Mummy!! :x
Agreed about the 'Daddy' and 'Mummy' thingy. But the point about salespeople speaking English is not so clear. I am sure we too would be trying to speak half-baked English with everyone we meet if we were learning the language and trying to move up the economic and social ladder. My point is, no one is immune to the pressure to become well versed in English - salesmen included. I don't see anything wrong with that.

[thamizhvaanan]

excellent tv! regarding this cricket commentary, if a person is not aware of Hindi he defly cant follow the commentary, not even a single word. On the other hand have you watched India Vs South Africa series which was telecasted in Sun News, with a worst tamizh commentary?! They could have used English instead of this Thanglish! Vaazhga Thamizh! :oops2:LOL! I detested the tamil commentary in Raj TV even more. They hired a couple of radio commentators from All india Radio and put them behind the mike. All that they did is merely describe the events which we can see. If it is a Radio commentary, its OK coz the ppl dont have any visual clues. But TV screen'la enna nadakkudhunu engalukku theriyum irundhaalum adha appadiye describe panradhu :banghead:

"nandraaga mattaiyai mid-wicket thisayai nOki seluthinaar batsman. Oru Ottam serkka pattadhu" :banghead:

The worst comedy is when they try to read out scorecards. In radio commentary it is mandatory every over. Here we can see the score all the time. Full batting scorecard'a pottalum... kashtapattu moochu pidichu adha padichu kaamikka try pannuvaanga... paadhi batting line up thandradhuku munnadiye mathiduvaanga. appavum manasu thalaraama bowling card details'a appdiye oppipaanga :banghead:

The thanglish commentator that u are mentioning abt is suman ( I think :roll: ). He is a very knowledgeable person in sports. He used to conduct a sports quiz in DD podhigai. Even I felt that he was using a lot of english phrases, but in general, he captured the spirit of commentating better than his partners.

I expect ppl on TV to use chaste tamil only to the extent I speak or 20% purer than what i speak. Adhuku mela sutha thamizh'la pesunaa, romba seyarkaiya irukkum. What is actually preposterous is to introduce new english words into daily usage. Ethanayo pazhaya varthaigal indha madhiri vazhakozhindu poiduchu.

Arisi endra varthai maruvi latin'la oryza'nu aagi pinnadi english'la rice'nu maariyadha solluvaanga... Aana namma aalunga original 'arisi'ya vittutu Rice Rice nu koovuraanga... especially in kalyana pandhi :rant: . In future I dont want my kid to come to me and ask " arisi'na enna appa" :banghead: . Let us atleast preserve the words that we are using right now. Using chaste tamil is secondary and may probably backfire. Chaste tamil survived coz it was treated seperately from vazhakku thamizh. Ippo azhiyum nilayil iruppadhu vazhakku thamizh mattumey. Senthamizhai kaaka namma ilakkiyangal irukku. It will never be extinct that easily.

[Sanguine Sridhar]

When I goto a shop or anywhere here in chennai mostly the salesman speaks in English even though his vocabulary and articulation is worst.What stops them? Agreed Hindi is our national language and English is the universal language. But what is the point in neglecting our own mother tongue? I really get pissed off when I see parents forcing their kids to call them as Daddy and Mummy!! :x
Agreed about the 'Daddy' and 'Mummy' thingy. But the point about salespeople speaking English is not so clear. I am sure we too would be trying to speak half-baked English with everyone we meet if we were learning the language and trying to move up the economic and social ladder. My point is, no one is immune to the pressure to become well versed in English - salesmen included. I don't see anything wrong with that.

My point is when two ppl can communicate in their mother tongue, what is the neccessity of an alien language? Is it something related to status?! Ofcourse I speak in English to my client,boss & to some of my colleagues in my office but all these ppl are not aware of my mother tongue. I see in some family they talk in English among their members. What is the reason? Some college going girls and guys thinks that speaking in their mother tongue,listening to their own language songs are a big sin. Why that so? English is a prestigious language or something? People easily use F$ck, Sh#Yit in public but it is called rude,filthy if they use the same words in their own mother tongue. So altogether even bad words in english are respected in this soceity! How sad...!

Well-versed english, yes nobody is master and will make mistake. But do you really think that salesman speaks in English to improve his vocabulary and there by he moves up in the social ladder? I dont think so. Its an outcome of his inferiority complex. He feels its a shame to talk in his mother tongue when he sees somebody education wise superior. Simple logic is that if I am good in coding he will be master in managing the buisness.

Its a great pain and true fact that ppl ignore their own mother tongue just because for a show-off in this hallucination soceity which thinks that English is the best-of-best language in this world!

[kannannn]

SS, I agree partly. But college girls and boys showing of their fluency is not what I am talking about. I do think that there is social pressure on less fortunate people to improve their English language skills (and salespeople certainly do come in this category). It is an altogether different issue if that social pressure is right or necessary. To ask them not to try and practice the language is to deprive them of the advantage we have by virtue of our social status.

[Rohit]

Linguistic Conflicts - Identity Crisis:

Regional Languages/Mother Tongues Vs. Hindi Vs. English


Position of English in the network English came to India in the seventeenth century with traders, who subsequently became the rulers of India.

When English came to India along with the East India Company it was a peripheral trade language in competition with Portuguese that dominated the sea trade (Ram 1983).

When the East India Company gained political power a century later to Nativization of English in India and its effect on multilingualism 153 promote its trade by annexing territories beyond the port towns, by bringing the princely states under its suzerainty and by conquering the competing European powers operating in India, English became a language of power, politically.

It became the language of administration not only in the provinces directly administered by the Company, but also in the princely states.

Consolidation of English in the domains of power made a significant difference to the multilingual network (Dua 1994).

Nativization took place at different levels, which culminated in Queen's English becoming the Babu (Assistant) English of India.

English was promoted as the language of communication.

Because of this, English came to be viewed as the language of rational and scientific (as opposed to religious) thought and material (as opposed to spiritual) progress.

The adoption of English into the multilingual network was begun by the elite, as pointed out above, to consolidate their power and to enhance their acceptability.

It is not uncommon in educated multilingual settings to use English in very private acts such as printing marriage invitations, announcing deaths and casting birth charts.

The adoption of English for poetry and fiction is another instance of its nativization, which extends the process to expressive domains.

The use of English as an instrument to challenge and change the prevailing power equation between native languages gives it a role in native politics.

In the political perception of the minorities, English, besides opening up social and economic opportunities for their children, becomes a weapon to use in defense against the dominance of the majority language.

Nevertheless, English is believed by the minorities -speakers of powerless languages-to be a powerful tool available to them to constrain the power given by a majority language to its speakers.

That the power the minorities try to gain through English is at the cost of their own languages is of secondary importance to them.

In sum, the powerless believe that they can attain a position of power using the power of English.

The question to be raised is the effect of this change in the position of English within multilingualism in India.

One role of English in the multilingual system of India is for it to be a model for other languages for their development.

A problem with this role is the superior position it gives to English and the notion that language development means catching up with English and becoming like English.

Annamalai languages reach that kind of development, there will not be any reallocation of functions to them in the multilingual network and English will remain supreme.

Another problem is that English is simultaneously inside and outside the system.

This gives the dual advantage to English of opening double doors at both the national and international levels.

English is associated with the ideology of modernity (Annamalai 2001c:89-124) and progress and the native languages with the ideology of tradition and cultural values.

English is used for the former functions and the native languages for the latter.

This dichotomy has led to the situation where the economic value of English has gone up and that of the native languages has gone down.

The effect of English on Indian multilingualism is that it reduces the value of the native languages, makes them non-substantive in public domains and limits them to private domains, all of which are not conducive to their vitality, though have not yet threatened their survival in the limited sense of maintaining them just in homes for continuity of tradition and solidarity of family..

English, in their view, has the additional advantage of having no historical association with caste-based social discrimination and of carrying the baggage of rationality and universality.

For a rejoinder, see Dasgupta 2000:1407-1411; for an opposite point of view that non- mastery of Standard English by low castes is an expression of refusal to be homogenized and monopolized culturally by the westernized ruling class through English and of resistance to the colonial-western world view and discursive practices that are codified in English, see Das Gupta 1993.

The intelligentsia from low castes, who benefited from the government's affirmative action, want to have an agenda to appropriate English to prove their worth and merit in the open world (Anand 1999: 2053-2056).

The oppressed social groups want to appropriate English to serve them in their battle against upper castes, who have come to control the major Indian languages and the benefits from them.

They have not embraced English for their creative expression, which the creative writers from upper castes do to gain international attention and standing.

While becoming a powerful cousin to help the disadvantaged, English has simultaneously acquired a native elite cutting across regions and castes, and has spread from cerebral domains to expressive domains, which have been exclusive to Indian languages, in the name of modernity and cosmopolitanism.

This changed the position of English in the multilingual network in India, endowing it with a dominant position together in the three domains of commerce, administration and politics.

This sharing permitted social cohesion with complementary functioning of languages in different such domains of use as rituals, intellectual discourse, royal courts, army, commerce, literary composition, occupations, home and so on.

As a result of the conflict, English has retained its function of official language of the Indian Union, but shares it with Hindi.

The conflict was resolved by having indefinite bilingualism with both Hindi and English as the official languages of the Union.

English in the fight against disadvantage Education is believed to bring about equality by equalizing access to opportunities.

In their aspiration to have equal opportunities and to improve their position in the power equation, they demand English-medium education.

For governing the country, the question of the official language of the Indian Union was decided in favor of Hindi after a prolonged and acrimonious debate in the Congress Party that led the country to independence and in the Constituent Assembly that drafted the Constitution.

Hindi was to replace English in fifteen years from 1950 when India declared itself a Republic and adopted the new Constitution.

The students from low castes find themselves stigmatized for their poor knowledge of English and denied opportunities in life because of that.

English in the rivalry between regional languages The politics of inclusion of English in the linguistic landscape of independent India parallels its politics of exclusion from public domains as an instrument of power and a symbol of progress.

The regional languages that claimed equity with Hindi used the weapon of English to win their battle, claiming superiority for it over Hindi (and any regional language), and pinning their argument on the potential role of English in the economic progress of the country.

This conflict between the English elite and the Hindi elite evolved into a conflict between the elite of Hindi and other regional languages, which used English as their best offense against Hindi.

English was given a pan-Indian character cutting across ethnic lines and caste lines with an image of temporality as opposed to the image of sacredness of Sanskrit and of royalty of Persian.

English was initially adopted for cerebral domains like science and law, blocking the entry of native languages into these domains and leaving them for the integrative domains such as religion, literature and culture.

With regard to the shared cultural ethos of the country, English, being a modern language of industrial culture, represents in India the science culture and the pop culture, whereas Sanskrit represents a religious culture.

That is the case in higher education, higher courts, higher administration, higher technology, higher business and many other domains.

http://www.benjamins.com/jbp/series/JLP/3-1/art/0007a.pdf

[NOV]

what was that all about? and what relevance is it in todays shrinking global world? :roll:

i again ask, what is the standing of hindi outside india? :huh:

[joe]

what was that all about? and what relevance is it in todays shrinking global world? :roll:

i again ask, what is the standing of hindi outside india? :huh:

NOV,
I don't know what is the standing of Hindi ..But I know what is the standing of north indians ..They not only expect indian tamils to speak in hindi ,but also Srilankan,singapore ,malaysian tamils ..Romba theLiva irukkanga :huh:

[temporary sori-Observer]

..Romba theLiva irukkanga :huh:
[tscii:730b50bd33]§ƒ¡ «ñ½¡,
«Ð ¦¾Ç¢Å¡, «Æ¢Å¡? :fishgrin:
[/tscii:730b50bd33]

[joe]

..Romba theLiva irukkanga :huh:
[tscii:49a019080e]§ƒ¡ «ñ½¡,
«Ð ¦¾Ç¢Å¡, «Æ¢Å¡? :fishgrin:
[/tscii:49a019080e]

அது தெளிவா ,அழிவா என்பது என் முந்தைய வாதங்களை படித்தால் புரியும் :)

[P_R]

I am sure we too would be trying to speak half-baked English with everyone we meet if we were learning the language and trying to move up the economic and social ladder. Point taken. Pretty valid. For instance the watchman/office-help in our office sometimes insists on speaking in English and we all play along at that time. We can see that his comfort level in understanding and communicating has improved substantially. This is pretty important for him as he interacts with folks in our office who are from all over India.

What I found irritating in my experience was when the salesman persists with English when I am trying to talk in Tamil, worse still: replaces my Tamil words by an English word in his response. That too with a scorn as if I was saying something wrong. But I guess it is a fine line. On second thoughts, he may have thought that I'd be more comfortable in English. And consequently thought he can serve me in the language where he assumes I am more comfortable.

It is such an assumption that : Jeans pOttavan thamiz pEsa mAttAn, that is unfortunate.

[joe]

PR :thumbsup:

[gaddeswarup]

[tscii:336d0598fb]I have not looked through the whole discussion but have often wondered whether mirror neurons have some thing to with it. Here is a recent report:
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-07/uoc--urs071607.php
"The researcher’s used two actors, one an American, the other a Nicaraguan, to perform a series of gestures--American, Nicaraguan, and meaningless hand gestures, to a group of American subjects. A procedure called transcranial magnetic stimulation (TMS) was used to measure the levels of so-called “corticospinal excitability” (CSE)—which scientists use to probe the activity of mirror neurons.

They found that the American participants demonstrated higher mirror neuron activity while observing the American making gestures compared to the Nicaraguan. And when the Nicaraguan actor performed American gestures, the mirror neuron activation of the observers dropped.

“We believe these are some of the first data to show neurobiological responses to culture-specific stimuli,” said Molnar-Szakacs. “Our data show that both ethnicity and culture interact to influence activity in the brain, specifically within the mirror neuron network involved in social communication and interaction.”
“We are the heirs of communal but local traditions,” said Iacoboni. “Mirror neurons are the brain cells that help us in shaping our own culture. However, the neural mechanisms of mirroring that shape our assimilation of local traditions could also reveal other cultures, as long as such cross-cultural encounters are truly possible. All in all, our research suggests that with mirror neurons our brain mirrors people, not simply actions.”

Thus, it appears that neural systems supporting memory, empathy and general cognition encodes information differently depending on who’s giving the information—a member of one’s own cultural/ethnic in-group, or a member of an out-group, and that ethnic in-group membership and a culturally learned motor repertoire more strongly influence the brain’s responses to observed actions, specifically actions used in social communication."[/tscii:336d0598fb]

[podalangai]

Using chaste tamil is secondary and may probably backfire. Chaste tamil survived coz it was treated seperately from vazhakku thamizh. Ippo azhiyum nilayil iruppadhu vazhakku thamizh mattumey. Senthamizhai kaaka namma ilakkiyangal irukku. It will never be extinct that easily.

I disagree, TV. You neglect to take into account the impact of English-medium education. In earlier generations, Tamil was the medium of instruction, and preserving pure Tamil only meant replacing colloquial expressions and Sanskrit words with sentamil. This was relatively easy to do. The situation today is different. As a result of studying in English, we are losing the ability to express advanced concepts in Tamil. Any sort of Tamil, pure or colloquial. It's not just that we use English words - for many, even thinking in terms of these concepts in Tamil is difficult. Just as an example, how many of your fellow graduands would be able to answer an engineering exam in Tamil? In law, the Government Law College, Madurai, is doing excellent work to fight this trend: amongst other things, it conducts competitions in Tamil for students)- but only a small minority of students have the skills to be able to take part.

This is the real danger facing Tamil, that its domain of use will shrink until it becomes little more than a kitchen language - and against this danger Sangam literature is no help. :cry:

[Rohit]

This is all about language, language planning, language development and shaping its ability to serve requisite functional needs with changing time. It is entirely up the natives to identify which language, I am afraid.

Should one not care to recognize and grasp the gravity of situation, there is no relevance of any assertion to the world, regardless of the language in which it is asserted and whether the world is shrinking or not. The only relevance that undeniably exists is between language and its speakers, for world in itself is absolutely immune to the consequences of any linguistic conflicts, multilingualism and resulting identity crisis of the people who eventually face it.

The standing of any language first begins at societal level. Then it can advance its standing to provincial level by proving its ability to serve the requisite functional needs of the time. And only after attaining sufficient evolutionary development, it can extend its standing to further higher levels, which can be national, international or even universal level.

Accepting the undeniable fact that out of over thirty or so Indian native languages, no Indian language has gone through the necessary evolutionary phases of linguistic development and attain capability of furnishing the functional needs of the changing time; such linguistic stagnancy does not have to remain as such eternally, nonetheless.

[P_R]

The only relevance that undeniably exists is between language and its speakers, for world in itself is absolutely immune to the consequences of any linguistic conflicts, multilingualism and resulting identity crisis of the people who eventually face it. :confused2: Doesn't 'world' include the people ? Are you looking at people as things that pass. i.e. 'a comma in the history' of the world ? (I may be reading this wrong but) if so, would that be the right perspective to analyze any social issue ?

no Indian language has gone through the necessary evolutionary phases of linguistic development and attain capability of furnishing the functional needs of the changing time What languages do you consider to have passed these phases ?For languages that have not, I guess we are discussing something on the lines of: 'what role can be played consciously by the speakers of the language'

[Rohit]

[tscii:cf3eae1a2e]
Once the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.

Q: What made *** cause people to speak different languages?

One day, some of the people had an idea. They said to each other, “Let’s make bricks and bake them to make them hard.” Then they said to each other, “Let’s build for ourselves a city and tower. So they used bricks instead of stones, and tar instead of mortar to build the city. Let’s make the top of the tower reach high into the sky. We will be famous. If we do this, we will not be scattered all over the world. We can reach up to *** and people will follow us and worship us.

The **** saw the city and the tower. ** saw that the people had started being proud of what they had done. They stopped listening to *** and started trying to be like ***. They bragged about the tower and wanted people to worship them.

*** decided to do something that would make the people rely on *** and not themselves.

Suddenly, ** made many people speak different languages. Can you believe it? One day they all talked the same language, and instantly they spoke different languages.
The time is changing again, the whole earth is becoming of one language, and of one speech - English :idea: [/tscii:cf3eae1a2e]

[temporary sori-Observer]

Why is Bible mentioned by Rohit? :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

[Rohit]

Doesn't 'world' include the people?
Of course, the 'world' includes people, but the world as an entity itself is not people.

Americans, French, Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, and the people of the rest of the world, they are all people, but they are essentially immune to the consequences of any linguistic conflicts, multilingualism and resulting identity crisis of the people who eventually face it; and in our case, it is the people of India who are facing it. That is why I said; the only relevance that undeniably exists is between language and its speakers.

That is what I meant. I am sorry if that was not clear.


Would that be the right perspective to analyze any social issue?
I am keen to read what else would you consider to be the right perspective to analyse such issues. Please do go ahead. I am really keen to know your views.


What languages do you consider to have passed these phases?
I think; the answer to this question is self-evident. Do you really want me to answer this question?

[Rohit]

[tscii:ea3fd886be]
Why is Bible mentioned by Rohit? :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
Dear temporary sori-Observer, please don’t be so paranoid and get so :twisted:. The quote is just a statement, simply intended to reflect a thought, there is nothing more than that. :) [/tscii:ea3fd886be]

[temporary sori-Observer]

[tscii:a59261c9e4]
Why is Bible mentioned by Rohit? :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
Dear temporary sori-Observer, please don’t be so paranoid and get so :twisted:. The quote is just a statement, simply intended to reflect a thought, there is nothing more than that. :) [/tscii:a59261c9e4]
Rohit,
What was the relevance of stating what is mentioned in Bible about how different languages were created by God to divide the people who did not show respect to God?

[Rohit]

Rohit,
What was the relevance of stating what is mentioned in Bible about how different languages were created by God to divide the people who did not show respect to God?
Dear temporary sori-Observer,

Thought of one language is the only relevance, if somehow you have managed to miss that point in the spur of paranoia. :)

[temporary sori-Observer]

Rohit,
What was the relevance of stating what is mentioned in Bible about how different languages were created by God to divide the people who did not show respect to God?
Dear temporary sori-Observer,

Thought of one language is the only relevance, if somehow you have managed to miss that point in the spur of paranoia. :)
Rohit,

So you are mentioning from the Bible as relevant, about how the humans had one language in the past (before God made them speak in different languages), just like the world seems to have one common language (English) now?

[Rohit]

............

You sorry fellow are ignored.

[pavalamani pragasam]

Rohit's reference to Babel eludes me too! What relevance has it to the realistic situation we are talking about- one's mother tongue, acceptability of Hindi as the link language, advisability of continuing English for communication among Indian people, prevalence of English in Tamil Nadu etc? His pedagogic quotes, his prophesy of English becoming the one language of the Biblical times are least impressive!

[pavalamani pragasam]

Is it not rather ridiculous to imagine our rich languages very much kicking & alive now will die & English alone will survive? For all practical purposes English has managed to become the international link language. But that does not mean it is ultimately going replace all other existing languages!!!

[P_R]

As a result of studying in English, we are losing the ability to express advanced concepts in Tamil. :exactly: We are rapidly decreasing the scope for using the language. It may soon become the language found in ancient poems and sloppy movies, that is all. When I meet people from Europe who have journals publishing technical articles in their languages, I feel a sharp jealousy. If such technical journals existed in Tamil, whether I would be equal to understanding them is still an open (and personally embarrassing) question. But fact remains that there are none, thus inviting me to play the blame game and tempting me to use that good old expression: 'vicious cycle'.
Any sort of Tamil, pure or colloquial. It's not just that we use English words - for many, even thinking in terms of these concepts in Tamil is difficult. True :(

Regarding English medium education: not sure how that's going to be reversed at all. We have kind of reached a stage (in India) where quality seems to be the preserve of the English medium schools. (I would be glad if that isn't actually the case). Note: I am not claiming English medium schools automatically imply quality.

Americans, French, Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, and the people of the rest of the world, they are all people, but they are essentially immune to the consequences of any linguistic conflicts, multilingualism and resulting identity crisis of the people who eventually face it; and in our case, it is the people of India who are facing it I am still not sure if I am getting this right. Do you mean that there are no linguistic conflicts in the rest of the world or 'there are linguistics conflicts' elsewhere too but people are immune to its consequences ?
I am keen to read what else would you consider to be the right perspective to analyse such issues. Please do go ahead. I am really keen to know your views. Well, my question regarding the appropriate perspective stemmed from a nebulous understanding of the 'world' in your sentence. Any perspective whose unit of analysis is the speakers of the language is fine enough.
However,
It is entirely up the natives to identify which language, I am afraid. means ? You aren't suggesting, popularity is its own argument, are you ? We are a bunch of natives here discussing the choice. And whether the choice being made is reasonable and makes sense.
I think; the answer to this question is self-evident. Do you really want me to answer this question? Let us suppose you mean only English. If I am right I will give myself a pat on the back but still ask you why you think it is the only language that has passed the 'phases'. OTOH if 'only English' was the wrong guess I would still give myself a pat on the back for intially asking a question whose response was not self-evident. :)

[Rohit]

[tscii:3a44e7b746]What is language death?


The most common process leading to language death is one in which a community of speakers of one language becomes bilingual in another language, and gradually shifts allegiance to the second language until they cease to use their original (or heritage) language. This is a process of assimilation which may be voluntary or may be forced upon a population.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_death

The rapid endangerment and death of many minority languages across the world is a matter of widespread concern, not only among linguists and anthropologists but among all interested in the issues of cultural identity in an increasingly globalized culture. A leading commentator and popular writer on language issues, David Crystal asks the fundamental question, "Why is language death so important?", reviews the reason for the current crisis, and investigates what is being done to reduce its impact. By some counts, only 600 of the 6,000 or so languages in the world are "safe" from the threat of extinction. By some reckonings, the world will, by the end of the twenty-first century, be dominated by a small number of major languages.

If you believe that ‘half the languages in the world are dying’, and you take one of the middle-of-the-road totals above, your estimate will be some 3,000 languages.

http://www.cambridge.org/us/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=9780521012713

http://assets.cambridge.org/052165/3215/sample/0521653215wsc00.pdf

As the 21st century begins, faster economic globalization is going hand in hand with the growing use of English. More and more people are being encouraged to use or send messages in English rather than in their own language. Many do not mind. They see this as part of the unavoidable trend towards worldwide uniformity and a means whereby a growing number of people can communicate directly with each other.

From this point of view, the spread of English may be seen as a positive development which saves resources and makes cultural exchange easier. After all, it might be said, the advance of English is not aimed at killing off local languages but is simply a means of reaching a wider audience.

Perhaps. But accepting that as the last word ignores the deep-rooted ties between individual freedom and political power, between the linguistic, social and economic mechanisms which in every society underpin relations between people and groups and between culture and communities. A person makes a mark through his or her ability to use the most useful language or languages. And over several generations, the most useful language eliminates the others.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1310/is_2000_April/ai_62382646

English kills. (Dying languages, linguists believe one language is lost everyday)

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb5037/is_199806/ai_n18284298

More than 1 billion people are believed to speak some form of English. For every native speaker there are three nonnative speakers. Three-quarters of the world’s mail is in English and four-fifths of electronic information is stored in English.

Multiculturalists, meanwhile, say the blitzkrieg-like spread of English effectively commits “linguistic genocide” by killing off dozens other languages.

These differing views lead to the question: Is the world taking English by storm or is English taking the world by storm?

http://www.pbs.org/speak/ahead/globalamerican/global/[/tscii:3a44e7b746]

[Rohit]

I am still not sure if I am getting this right. Do you mean that there are no linguistic conflicts in the rest of the world or 'there are linguistics conflicts' elsewhere too but people are immune to its consequences?
Let me try it this way:

Those who are either spectators or observers of such linguistic conflicts or are facing such linguistic conflicts in their own country but are not part or participants of the linguistic conflicts elsewhere in the other corners of the world (say India) are essentially immune to the consequences of those conflicts. By extending this scenario across the entire world, the world itself essentially becomes resistant to the consequences of such linguistic conflicts. That is why language deaths occur and they are increasing at an alarming rate without affecting you, me, India or the rest of the world in general.


means? You aren't suggesting, popularity is its own argument, are you?
May I answer this question by posing a simple counter question?

On what basis English should be regarded as an international or a global language?

If popularity is part of the answer, then yes, you can say popularity is part of the argument. If the number of its speakers is also part of the answer; then yes, number is another part of the same argument. Now the part that is left of the argument is functional utility and security of identity; but exactly that, what is being faced; isn't it? And that is the choice the natives are unwarily making, overlooking the almost certainty of either full or partial death of most regional languages of India over the coming decades.


Let us suppose you mean only English. If I am right I will give myself a pat on the back but still ask you why you think it is the only language that has passed the 'phases'. OTOH if 'only English' was the wrong guess I would still give myself a pat on the back for initially asking a question whose response was not self-evident.
In that case you can definitely give yourself a pat on your back, as the answer includes English, but English is not the only language that has passed through the essential phases of Linguistic Evolution; French, German, Russian and several other languages are among the few languages, but they are not as widespread as English evidently is; and the reason, I presume, is obvious.

[P_R]

Those who are either spectators or observers of such linguistic conflicts or are facing such linguistic conflicts in their own country but are not part or participants of the linguistic conflicts elsewhere in the other corners of the world (say India) are essentially immune to the consequences of those conflicts.Hmm.. why ? The lifestyle changes (including langauge related changes) happen within the lifetime of the 'observer'. So it what sense can he be called 'immune' ?

As you have correctly pointed out, the functional utility and facile nature of English (besides some socio-political advantages it gained through history) earn it its present position. But this success need not imply that the language s that English is wining over are ill-equipped to deal with change. It can also be the case that the speakers of those languages have not made a conscious effort in this direction.

For, example: I have heard that in some SE Asian countries like Thailand, books on subjects like computer science have one page in the local language and the same in English in the facing page. These sort of efforts make it possible for the local language to use the existing advantages of English underastanding. At the same time they play catch-up, so that the local language doesn't become left behind as a museum artefact.

[podalangai]

When I meet people from Europe who have journals publishing technical articles in their languages, I feel a sharp jealousy. If such technical journals existed in Tamil, whether I would be equal to understanding them is still an open (and personally embarrassing) question. But fact remains that there are none, thus inviting me to play the blame game and tempting me to use that good old expression: 'vicious cycle'.
Ah, but there are ways of breaking the cycle which ordinary people like us can contribute to. Here is one:

http://ta.wikipedia.org/

Now here's a funny thing: of the many people who're writing regularly for the Tamil Wikipedia, there is not a single one who currently lives in Tamil Nadu. There are some who live in Sri Lanka, but all the TN Tamils who write there are expatriates, or live in other parts of India.

[Rohit]

[tscii:6497726310]
Hmm.. why? The lifestyle changes (including langauge related changes) happen within the lifetime of the 'observer'. So it what sense can he be called 'immune'?
I don’t think nor can I say that the changes in lifestyle can be correlated to the immunity, as both observers and participants are subject to lifestyle changes, but the attribution for those changes could be entirely different in the two cases. For example, the changes in lifestyle of Europeans are predominantly within the boundaries of their cultural environments and identities, while the changes in lifestyle of Asians are predominantly outside the boundaries of their cultural environments and identities. It is this difference in the attribution for the lifestyle changes that gives rise to the dissonance in those whose lifestyle changes are not quite compatible with their cultural environments and identities, which gives rise to the identity crisis. The only way out of this vicious circle is to de-culturise ourselves and adequately reorient our thought processes for the benefit of our future generations.


As you have correctly pointed out, the functional utility and facile nature of English (besides some socio-political advantages it gained through history) earn it its present position. But this success need not imply that the languages that English is wining over are ill-equipped to deal with change. It can also be the case that the speakers of those languages have not made a conscious effort in this direction.
Analytically, all these efforts stems from the dissonance experienced from our failures to modernise ourselves with time by advancing our knowledge in all possible diverse fields by ourselves. It is the Western advances in those fields, combined with the identification of our own failures in those fields due to self-imposed, centuries old, cultural impedances that push us to change and adopt some form of dissonance reduction tactics, as you have rightly inferred.[/tscii:6497726310]

[pavalamani pragasam]

"mella Tamil ini saakum enRaan pethai" enRu antha kaalaththilEyE Bharathiyar echcharikkai maNi adiththaar, mElai kalai selvangkaLai nam mozyukku koNdu vara vENdum enRu vaziyum sonnaar.

[P_R]

It is this difference in the attribution for the lifestyle changes that gives rise to the dissonance in those whose lifestyle changes are not quite compatible with their cultural environments and identities, which gives rise to the identity crisis. True. Well put.
The only way out of this vicious circle is to de-culturise ourselves and adequately reorient our thought processes for the benefit of our future generations. re-orient......pun intended ? :-)
De-culturising is a strong word. It's a delicate balance, sometimes it slips into a regressive attitude. On the whole, point taken. Language, in particular, is one place where we can be pretty conscious about absorbing new things without losing out on what we have.

[Rohit]

[tscii:70d2972d2a]
Language, in particular, is one place where we can be pretty conscious about absorbing new things without losing out on what we have.
I don’t think aspirations alone could assure the lasting preservation of language, for perpetual preservation of language demands perpetual maintenance of language, not only by a critical mass of intellectuals but general speakers too. In nutshell, both the linguistic and social dimensions of language must be maintained for it to survive. And it is the failure in meeting this stringent demand that stagnates and eventually deadens the language.

Having said that, I am glad to read a good convergence in our views. Also this has really been a cordial exchange of views, I must add. Thank you. :)[/tscii:70d2972d2a]

[MazhaiKuruvi]

yEmpA ipdi sandai pOdreenga...

We love a language because of the thoughts, memories and feel it brings to us not because it is A, B or C. You love a language based on what you have experienced with it. German is as precious to the German (any man born and brought up in Germany) as Tamil is to someone born and brought up in a Tamil society. If I were born in Mumbai and experienced girlfriends, family,love, work, travel, etc. through Marathi, perhaps I will love Marathi with passion. That is the reality. This is why hardly anyone of French, German or Italian origin in the US speaks French, German, Italian, etc.except the first or at the most second generation immigrants.

[Harish Kumar]

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