Mychael Danna messes with ARR's Water score

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Topic started by observer (@ 12.77.131.67) on Sat Dec 18 00:50:28 EST 2004.


http://www.telegraphindia.com/1041218/asp/calcutta/story_4133058.asp (http://www.telegraphindia.com/1041218/asp/calcutta/story_4133058.asp
)

"In fact, I heard the early mixes for Mr Rahman’s songs and I thought the electronic elements were inappropriate for this movie. I hope the final version will have an instrumental make-up more in keeping with the spirit of the film. The songs themselves are his (Rahman’s) usual wonderful work."

I find this very annoying indeed. So Rahman's own dream score is given a PC acoustic makeover. Aaaaargh!!

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When one is give a job to work on already completed job, to atleast do justice to the salary, he has to do some thing...its natural..so michael does some patch work..changes instruments and that's all. Or else..deepa mehta and her auditors will question why the hell this guy is paid..

But..adhukku ARR's best work by his own admission thaan kedaichchidhaa?!.oh God..

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Danna says that he "hopes" that the songs will have a different instrumental approach.

So, it is possible that the changes to the songs might be done by Rahman himself.

We will have to wait and see.

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Hi!
I dont think, we should be reading too much into this. for example, for Veer Zaara, Madan Mohan's tunes were used albeit a few changes done to keep it as per the current times. As long as the original melody is kept intact, I don't see huge damage done.
Thanks,
Jaiganesh

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Jaiganesh:

Are you serious? As far as I'm concerned every note, every single sound that ARR puts in his music is a direct expression of his intent, he is one of the few composers who applies the highest levels of control to his compositions. To have anyone tamper with it at all strikes me as being so brutal that I'm frankly surprised to see so little agreement with me here on this matter.

No offense, but how carefully are you listening to what ARR is doing in his songs over and above, not to mention under, his "tunes"? Madan Mohan is a different case since he's gone, and can't object to the oh-so-clever modernization of his tunes. Rahman is very much around and it's sure to cause him pain. Have you read his comment on Sarah Brightman's version of his Journey Home tune: "They made a khichdi of it."

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skumar:

"We will have to wait and see."

Indeed. Though I'm already making plans and buying hi-tech weaponry in order to assassinate either Deepa or Danna or both :-).

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Jaiganesh:

"No offense, but how carefully are you listening to what ARR is doing in his songs over and above, not to mention under, his "tunes"?"

If that sounded condescending, let me rephrase it to say don't you care about his arrangements too? I guess its just a measure of my irritation at this happening, and also because I'm atleast as interested in his sound as his tunes, which may not be how everyone listens to music.

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Hi !
Observer!
All I meant to convey was , if the original thought is kept intact, then it should be fine. It is true, that if ARR himself feels bad abt it, then it is indeed objectionable. All said and done, whatever Mychael Danna does is having the blessing of Deepa Mehta and right now she is the sole authority who can decide, whether it is OK or not. All we can do is speculate as we don't even have a clue.

Thanks,

Jaiganesh
http://silencerocks.blogspot.com

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observer!

what i got from interview was - Mychael Denna for BGM of Water.

the songs are composed and i believe recorded by A.R.Rahman already.
the BGM does have some hangover of the songs, and i believe that is where Mr. Denna is
mentioning regarding orchestration etc. and from the elite list of musicians listed. i have no doubt that it would be pretty good.

regards
saregamaremix

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saregamaremix:

I understand your interpretation. Certainly hope its the right one, though I'm not willing to relent even on the BGM :-).

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>>>
"In fact, I heard the early mixes for Mr Rahman’s songs and I thought the electronic elements were inappropriate for this movie
<<<

Realizing things a bit late...well, better late than never

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Observer:

even if ARR did the BGM, how much could he have done it..
The film was stalled completely in varanasi....
It was reshot in Srilanka after 3 odd years...so I now believe that ARR only composed songs for this period films and if what donna says is to be believed then the songs might probably come out untouched.

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This really sucks... Will anybody know what exactly this guy will do to the music.

If the album becomes a flop, ppl will say Mychael Danna already said so...

If the album becomes a hit, ppl will say Mychael Danna must have tweaked it, thats y it worked!

I wish ARR himself handled the bgm too :-(

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Dude:

Good point.

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The question is why should the producer go to another guy when ARR has international name & fame? Even AGW is working with him and so is chinese and hollywood, but why not this water-wala who came to ARR in the first place?

Now don't tell ARR is too busy and does not have time etc for this project...it was his project and now another is messing around with it. (Much like certain other connections that seem to slip away from him). Has this got something to do with his recently well-known haughtiness (which was veiled by the `all-from-allah' stuff before, in his upcoming days)

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Read AGW as ALW (Andrew Lloyd Webber)...

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vambu,

going by ur logic, anu mallik should never ever get a chance to score music again...

observer, thanks :-)

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Dude, Why do you fall into the trap of dragging someone else - typical of fanatics who wish to protect their fav MD at any cost while throwing mud on others...I thought you do not belong to that category....

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Vambu:

"Now don't tell ARR is too busy and does not have time etc for this project..."

Given the chaotic, sporadic and spread-out production of the film I wouldn't be surprised if that was indeed the case. Rahman's schedules are hardly so open as to accomodate this kind of film-making, which brings me to my next, rather controversial, point, namely, should Rahman curtail his international ambitions, atleast for a couple of years?

I know his fans love the idea of Rahman gallivanting abroad, it has the same glamour that lies behind the flight of Indian urban youth overseas, the lure of the dollar and of international living standards, not to mention the envy and admiration of people back home. But maybe its time now for Rahman to follow the advice offered in Swades and re-invest his talents in India.

The reason I say this is that his current career strategy is stretching him too thin. At least some of his recent films could have done with more focus on his part, Lakeer, say, or Dil Ne. We don't know what LOTR will bring, in the form of adulation or abuse, when it finally releases, but will it make up for ground lost at home? And ground has been lost, whatever fans say.

He should've been doing SLB's Black. After all that was why, one presumes, he went to the trouble of opening channels with the director. Soon after the encounter between the two, announcements of an SLB-ARR team-up were all over the place, yet as Black's release approaches one hears of Monty doing the BGM duties. Once again ARR was not available.

While I personally don't comprehend SLB's so-called-greatness, there is no denying that his impact in the North is huge, approaching that of Mani in the South. Hence Black is a major opportunity lost.

All I can say is LOTR better be worth all this absenteeism.

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vambuji,

ouch that hurt... but u are right! the anu malik analogy is taken back!

But seriously, i dont think any MD being haughty or otherwise makes a difference in his/her chances. I dont know how to put it without giving analogies or taking other MDs' names.

And on the topic of ARR becoming haughty, thats just how you look at it. Where as, you seem to put it in a as-a-matter-of-fact tone. And while we are it, the 'all-from-allah ...' statement was totally unnecessary. I dont know how you can insult someone's spiritual integrity like this; however much you may hate that person...

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observer,

While i agree with most of what you said, i dont what is the point of postponing things for 2 years. Why not go for international projects now?

Does he need to consolidate his position in TFM once every few years. He was a in a GREAT position in 2000. He voluntarily left all that and went for the goals he set for himself. And you expect him to leave all that and concentrate on tamil films just because he is no longer no. 1 in tamil?

Yup, i do agree that ground has been lost. But hey, he had no ground whatsoever in 1992. He made so much ground just like that! One album and he changed the face of TFM. Dont worry, ARR is not an MD who has to worry about whether he will get chances or not.

But, as you say, LOTR better be worth all this absenteeism :-)

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Dude,

'I dont know how you can insult someone's spiritual integrity like this; however much you may hate that person...'

Why should I hate a person who has produced so much of enjoyable music? NO!

However, I do not care about the so-called-spiritual-values of celebrities (including IR, ARR etc). All they care is focus-on-self while telling `pughazhellam iraivanukke',black money / tax evasion while talking about charity , fame and adulation while talking about simplicity-down to earth etc. coupled with shady dealings, crookedness, immorality, cheating etc. All of these have got nothing to do with spiritual values. Some who can keep making the fanatics belive that they are close to god will also be uncovered in due time.

Well that is my opinion based on studying 100's of characters, some of whom even put up a great face for a while before uncovered to be hypocrites...if ARR or IR is indeed an exception (which is hard to believe), let them better not slip and keep that way is all I can say...

BTW, how old are you?:-))

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Vambu,

I dont agree with you ,but that is your personal opinion, am not going to try convince you otherwise.
Just curious, do you trust anyone at all ;-)

And I am 25 years old, why??

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Vambuji,

According to IT reports, both IR and ARR have been honorable law abiding citizens.. The real crooks are the actors , actresses and sportsmen (Amitabh Bachan, Kamal Haasan, Saurav Ganguly.are some names that come to mind immediately)...

I cannot vouch for shady dealings and criminal activities etc.. But going by whatever they have been till now, I would be terribly surprised to see IR or ARR having a blemish in their personal/professional life...

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dude,cinerasikan:

My final digression on this topic:

I DO trust a lot of people whom I meet day to day, though not necessarily for their spiritual inclinations:-)

Once again all trustworthy people are NOT NECESSARILY spiritually inclined. Spiritual values are much more than merely being trustworthy or doing good to others.

For e.g. I know a number of guys who are prepared to even lose money to keep a promise (& hence trustworthy to their counterparts in material commitments) but nevertheless haughty and do not really care abour almighty at all (or about things like real purpose of life / afterlife or the reason as to why we're here or about why there are so much bad things happening in the world etc.)

Merely going to shrines or making an outwardly appearance of being pious etc. isn't spiritual either.

End digression

Finally, trust on MD's to give you music (a rare few of them may even be law-abiding for the most part to their country), but don't trust on them to be really fearful of the creator...that would mean blind fanatism based on outward shows / speeches etc. Look at their whole purpose of life...

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Dude:

"i dont what is the point of postponing things for 2 years. Why not go for international projects now? "

Understandable question, since I had left that chink open in my argument, not wanting to explain myself at too great a length. So if the following bores you to tears, you've only yourself to blame :-).

Firstly I notice that you passed over without comment my lament about the glamour-blindedness of the Indian yearning for foreign approbation and, er, dollars. I gather from that that you share that yearning yourself and so cannot or will not consider this worrying Indian tendency with any detachment. That's fine, but let's fully grasp the implications of ARR's new "goals".

Would you agree that making a musical splash abroad is very very very very difficult? I'd throw in a few more "verys" if I had the patience to type them. How many popular Indian musicmakers have made it abroad? We'll ignore classical musicians like Ravi Shankar and Zakir Husain for now. I can't think of any. I won't patronize you by describing all the practical and musical obstacles that lie before anyone with such dreams. To this you'll no doubt respond by pointing to BD, WOHE, LOTR and Raga Dance.

Would you say that ARR's work in these is at par with his own best work? More important, would you say that it exceeds the great Western masterpieces in quality? Let's take WOHE, do you honestly believe that it equals the achievement of the greatest movie scores of say, Bernard Hermann, Rosza, John Williams and so on?

I agree that Indian fans appear to love ARR's music aimed at foreign audiences, perhaps because of the sensation it affords of scaling some cultural ladder, perhaps because it somehow sidesteps the repetitive/too advanced paradox that assails his Indian work. Yet these fans constitute only a tiny fraction of his buying audience, so pleasing them can't be ARR's highest priority. The goal surely is to appeal to the international audience.

So has this audience been pleased? Do we see ecstatic reviews, record-breaking sales, or high-profile offers? Not that I can tell. Reviews of WOHE have been middling, it has figured on no chart that I know of, and no big Hollywood offers have followed in its wake. Personally I happen to find the album incoherent, it's distractingly eclectic and none of the eclectic bits are paticularly appealing in themselves. I'm sure you'll object strenuously to this, so since it's just your word against mine, let's just ignore all personal opinions for the moment and look solely at the impact it has created in the real world. Do you believe that it has shaken that world to its very roots? If yes, please supply your evidence for doing so. Would he have shaken India to its roots had he concentrated with all his heart on films here? Possibly yes. Imagine Anniyan scored by Rahman.

I could go on for many pages considering the nuances here, but let me cut to the heart of the matter. The only way for ARR to create a truly lasting impact overseas is to come up with a very deep fusion between Indian and Western traditions. On current evidence he has not achieved it. This "depth" is one of the reasons that Ravi Shankar and other classical musicans HAVE been successful abroad. Even if Westerners can't understand a note of what Ravi Shankar plays, the centuries of cultivation behind the music speaks powerfully and mysteriously across cultural gulfs. Raga's Dance points promisingly in the general direction, but it's only a start.

Which is why I say that ARR should take two years off to do the hard work and study required to come up with a blend that does full honour to both Indian and Western classical traditions, while fully exploiting his knowledge of modern sound. As it is with one foot in India and the other abroad, his shallow forays so far appear as short-sighted attempts to make a quick buck, or just pandering to exploitative Western masters.

Of course there could be other musical goals for him than the "blend" that I'm seeking, perhaps some hip-hop extravaganza, perhaps production jobs for high-profile pop stars and the like. Feel free to have your say, I'm keen to see what his fans see him achieving, or want to see him achieving, in the West.

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Observer, most of your opinions expressed very much reflects my view points too. I concur that so far he hasnt made any considerable impression with the listeners in the west.

In my opinion, Bombay Dreams really should have been avoided (yea, its easy for me to say it, but again, thats what I think). In the first place, its a musical, and on top of that the musical is based on bollywood with a very outlandish and cliched story line, and there itself the stage is set for very cheesy and cliched score. And with the disneyish lyrics like 'soar like an eagle in the sky', I cannot expect any seasoned listener to take that music seriously. And the result of that musical? ARR is identified in the western media as the composer of ALW's Bombay Dreams. In all seriousness, I cannot point to that musical as a representation of ARR's talent to my friends and colleagues here, even though ARR might have had shown his a little of what he is in that score. I think WOHE has better credibility than Dreams, but then again, I cannot explain why it failed to click with the general west.

Also he doesnt need movies like Lakeer and Dil Ne Jise... considereing what he is, and how could he use Guitar Prasanna for Dil Ne Jise? Prasanna goes to India after a break, and he plays for Rahman in whatever time he spent there and that ends up in Dil Ne Jise? Rahman and Guitar Prsananna sharing the same inlay card with Himesh Reshmaniya? It might sound snobbish, but it saddens me when he has to do such projects for whatever reasons involved. True that Dil Ne Jise has good melodious songs from Rahman, and also one new song in Lakeer has excellent programming but for what? Why shud a pig need a golden ring?

True that ARR was creating a new sound for most movies, if not for every movie, he scored in India. But I think the distinct and best sound from him is when he fuses the classical (esp Indian) forms with his sense for modern production techniques. Songs like En veetu thotathil, Narumugaye, Jiya Jale, Oru Deivam, Sangamam, Hai Raama, Meenaxi etc. It is this sound that has made me a Rahman fan. And even though other composers in india have started imitating him in creating fast numbers, so far (may be to an extent, Dum Dum Dumm?) nobody could come up with such a sound, and if they did it, they could not leave anything unique about themselves in that. And I feel ARR should arrive in the west based on the above sound but with an improved and more sophisticated sound, adding more dimensions to it and at the same time distinguishing himself from other west based composers with an Indian slang in their music. And yea, no garish, mushy, maudlin lyrics. Albums like Boys, Yuva etc speak of his production skills and knack for a new sound, and albums like Parthale Paravasam, Kandukonden, Duet, Sangamam display his compositional skills, and I think a right mixture of these attributes is what wud make ARR stand out and if not a stand out figure, atleast a composer who can be taken seriously. And yea, Raga's Dance points to that direction. And to an extent, association or colloboration with someone not cheesy and garish would clear a lot of hurdles.

Finally, I would not mind if ARR doesnt become populuar in the west. As long as he keeps making intelligent music and an innovative sound and not pander to 'exploitative Western masters', it would make ARR what he is.

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Hi,
ARR did WOHE coz, it was produced by SONY and they take care of all ARR international assignments (the contract must be aninteresting one to read!). So wherever SONY goes, I am sure they will take ARR with them. My only worry is SONY also owns another movie company which makes only action movies (movies of the "Underground" kind.not acclaimed movies). I hope they don't take ARR to hollywood and drop him into that company.
Thanks,
Jaiganesh.
http://silencerocks.blogspot.com

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hey sam,

Good one man.

Now its time ARR produces his own album....but then the hype that the media will create here on that is a question....I mean , AR should target west for the album...it should be like a fusion of Indian and western culture...

It should not be an other VM but should be some thing of its own...some thing that the general public will not grasp it in first take but the elite folks who are very much into it could relate it to.....Some thing like...raaga dance( well I did not impress me like a wild,,,because again it was like a jugal bandhi...sorry for that) but more on musical nuances rather than expressions.

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Observer,

"Firstly I notice that you passed over without comment my lament about the glamour-blindedness of the Indian yearning for foreign approbation and, er, dollars. I gather from that that you share that yearning yourself and so cannot or will not consider this worrying Indian tendency with any detachment. That's fine, but let's fully grasp the implications of ARR's new "goals". "

How did you get to that conclusion? I dint want to talk about that because that's a BIGGGG digression from our current topic.

I dont think it is imperative for a person to physically be in India to serve the country. There are so many people in India who dont care a s#$@ for the country. Just because you are physically in India, it doesnt mean you are doing the country a service.

The question of why someone wants global recognition can not be answered objectively. Any artist or performer would like their work to be appreciated by AS MANY people as possible. This urge varies from artist to artist.

If you work in indian films and do a great job, you will be famous in india, if you work in hollywood and do a great job you will be famous all round the world. This is a very simple logic. I dont understand why people dont seem to get this (observer, not just you)

Will post more responding to the other points you mentioned later. Gotta run now:-)

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Dude:

"I dont think it is imperative for a person to physically be in India to serve the country. There are so many people in India who dont care a s#$@ for the country. Just because you are physically in India, it doesnt mean you are doing the country a service."

I fully understand that there are counter-arguments to the brain-drain bugbear. And not just the familiar one you presented, namely, that those who go abroad are doing as little or as much as people staying back (and yet India continues to be poor, corrupt, disorganized, dirty). That's the reason I said "That's fine, but let's fully grasp the implications of ARR's new "goals"."

I was pointing out how the search for foreign approval should at this point be treated with some irony and more self-consciousness now. Do you see America looking for Indian approval? Why not? Their economic and intellectual self-sufficiency is a key reason. To any aware person India's constant sucking up to the West looks thoroughly embarrassing (the ridiculous yearly ritual of Oscar-hunting for example).

"The question of why someone wants global recognition can not be answered objectively. Any artist or performer would like their work to be appreciated by AS MANY people as possible. This urge varies from artist to artist."

True, but only if your work is worth "global recognition". On current evidence ARR's work lacks that worth. That was really the point of my discussion about the obstacles facing ARR in the West. I'm fine with ARR seeking worldwide fame, but his music has so far not offered anything that the world needs. Hence my talk about the unique fusion he should aim for.

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i have heard from my sis in UK that ppl. thronged to buy Bombay Dreams CD after the show...(my sis is an IR fan,so her comment must be true).....so i think ARR has the potential to give something different and enigmatic to westerners........but i think it is very difficult to be no1 in west.....for that it will take more time......i think IR broke the path with his symphony ARR continued it with a more mainstream stuff of drama and who knows in future some Tamil MD will be a grammy winner......i think it is xcellent to see Tamil guys going in the rite direction.....
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[dude]

"Do you see America looking for Indian approval? Why not?"

Then how would you explain the loads and loads of hollywood movies being released in India? How do you explain the attempts at reaching indian masses by translating english movies into each and every regional language? When hollywood does it, you consider it 'business'; but when indians do it you tag it 'embarassing'.

I guess such thoughts stem from a subconscious inferiority complex among us...

Face it, hollywood is the best movie making industry in the world. Hollywood has become what it is by continuously producing movies catering all kinds of people in the world, masses and classes. They have the quality and have the business savvy to reach an international audience.

And face this too, Indian movies are NOT upto the hollywood standard. At least the number of good quality movies that can reach non-indians (like what lagaan did) are extremely less.

Now just because I accept these facts, I dont become a traitor. I am saying things as I see it. This only provides an opportunity to better oneself.

As far as the question whether ARR's stuff is worth 'global recognition' or not, only time will tell. But his early successes sure seem to point in the right direction.

[Observer_Is_Back]

Dude:

"Then how would you explain the loads and loads of hollywood movies being released in India? How do you explain the attempts at reaching indian masses by translating english movies into each and every regional language? When hollywood does it, you consider it 'business'; but when indians do it you tag it 'embarassing'. "

In the realm of commerce, America sells movies, India sells everything from shrimp to software skills. Every country indulges in trade, it IS business. India generating hundreds of lame remakes of Hollywood without permission, yet yearning for Oscars every year IS embarrassing, while johnny-come-latelies like Korea, Hong Kong and Taiwan lead the world in cutting-edge filmmaking.

"I guess such thoughts stem from a subconscious inferiority complex among us... "

What thoughts? I think our inferiority complex is pretty open and declared, I don't see anything subconscious about it.

"As far as the question whether ARR's stuff is worth 'global recognition' or not, only time will tell. But his early successes sure seem to point in the right direction. "

Time IS telling you, and you are ignoring it. His international projects, as I have already pointed out ad nauseam, are receiving, to put it kindly, "mixed" reviews. They've not enjoyed chart-success of any sort either. And now even the scope of ARR's LOTR-contribution has been reduced, which probably explains his sudden acceptance of 3 (possibly 4) Tamil films recently.

Whatever you choose to believe, ARR HAS in fact re-trained his gaze on his roots now. So, clearly, he's more of a realist than his fans.

[Observer_Is_Back]

Dude:

"Face it, hollywood is the best movie making industry in the world.... "

Why do I have to face anything Dude? You present these opinions as some sort crushing rejoinder to my presumed nationalistic chauvinism. In fact, as a believer in Sturgeon's law, which states that 90% of everthing is offal, I find most Indian AND Hollywood movies to be intolerable. As I already mentioned in my post above I believe today the world's most fascinating films are coming from the Far East.


"And face this too, Indian movies are NOT upto the hollywood standard."

I strongly protest this tacit acceptance of, and craven slavery to, Hollywood "standards". I scorn such standards. It's precisely because of our lack of independent thinking that smaller countries have forged ahead with searing achievements that are making Hollywood look antiquated, bloated and irrelevant.

Anyway let me steer back the debate to music. My case about independent thinking in filmmaking also applies to ARR. He can increase his chances of international success not by equalling borrowed "standards", but by designing unique, self-created, and fully thought-out musical strategies of his own.