thiruvasakam in symphony

[kiru]

I think Fr. Jegath or TIS-USA would not mind IR taking even 100% of the profits..as along as they are not in debt..No proceeds from the audio sales should go to IR or his foundation till all the debts of TM and TIS-USA are settled.
I dont think IR wants a rebellion on this from his fan base.

[app_engine]

I didn't expect a very logical person like rs to compare baba with TiS...There's a lot of key differences...

1. Rajini paid the languishing disti's...not the producer (which was probably himself).

2. He paid back what he originally collected...(Disti's pay phenomenal sums to get rights for Rajini film. When it didn't collect as expected, they were experiencing loss and languishing while the money they paid was stashed away by the producer & Rajini). While it was a very fine & humane gesture, it was also true that unless Rajini keeps them in good humor, there won't be good prices for any of his future ventures...

3. In TIS case, the allegation is producer is languishing while disti & artist are supposedly making a lot of money (which is still a speculation). It's even alleged that the producer does not even have enough rights , like to question the artiste or as to appointing disti's etc.

There's no direct comparison.

[app_engine]

"No proceeds from the audio sales should go to IR or his foundation till all the debts of TM and TIS-USA are settled."

I agree with you on this Kiru, which is morally correct.

However, how do we know whether he even gets any money from this or not? Without knowing that key information for a fact, how can one start accusation?

[kr]

I have followed this conversation and am disturbed about this. However, it may be too premature to cast aspersions on IR without understanding his side of the story. Unless, of course, one's presumption in going into this is that IR is evil, guilty and orchestrated this whole thing to defraud his supporters. From what I have seen and observed of IR over the last 25+ years, such presumption to me would seem far-fetched.

(When I first heard of the troubles TISK had about 3 months ago, I had sent TIS a check for $500. This is in addition to the $500 I donated when the project had started and after purchasing about 15 CDs/DVDs. The reason I am writing the above is to let people know that I am not just talk but also prepared to help TISK out of their trouble).

From what I read, TIS-US was given CDs at a reduced rate so that they can sell here in the US. From IR's perspective it may have been a fare deal. Let's say that the reduced rate was $5 per CD. The selling price was $15 per CD. For 8000 CDs, the revenues would have been $ 120,000 with costs of $40,000 meaning TIS-US can make $80,000 towards repayment of loans etc. This may have been the calculation from IR's side to justify that they were giving TIS-US a fair deal. The mistake on the demand (that it has been difficult to sell 8000 doses )or a premium price ($15 per CD or cost of $5 for TIS) may have been honest mistakes with no malintentions.

I have also read here in these convesations that another issue was that Welate was given rights for the US. While there should have been convesations with the TIS-US on this, it is however difficult to determine if that has hurt the efforts of TISK to sell the CDs in the US. TISK and njv have been the champions of this project in the US and we all support them wholeheartedly and buy through them. in fact that Welgate has US rights has been news to us just from these conversations in the last few days and hence very difficult to imagine how much it would have cut into the US sales through TIS-US.

There may have been confusion/misperceptions/ on the role of Tamil Maiyam and TIS which may not have been addressed at all. Were they recognized as co-producers of the audio or as promoters whose role was to raise money for the project. Sometimes this is why people say that friendhsip and business should be different because some of these critical questions should have been clearly ironed out prior to the start of the project. Eventhough these may be tough convesrations, not having them in an agreement leads to misunderstandings later. It is sad that that what these guys started with an effort to raise the awareness and respect of IR's music is slipping into an effort which would further erode IR's fan base.

Having said all this, our efforts should be around how do we help TISK. From atleast the economics of the 8000 CDs and having gotten it at a reduced rate - if we can help sell those CDs - I hope it should be able to relieve of his financial commitments due to this project. However, I think we have a hit a wall marketing it to the same customers (that is tamil listeners in this forum). Here ae some additional ways we could attack this a few different ways:

a. Market TBI to new customers: I was thinking who could be customers for this who would be interested in buying this. Can anyone get a list of music departments at universities in the US (I am sure there should be a couple of thousand programs around the country). We can do a direct mail campaign to the Departments in these universities to buy and also if we can get faculty memeber list from these universities in the music department - we can also persuade the faculty members to get one for their personal listening.
Similarly, religion is a subject in these uiversities. They would be another segment within the universities to target with a direct mai. Obviously, the message of this campaign should highlight the religious importance of TBI and market to the department and faculty. It will be great if there are students in the US Universities who are frequent visitors to this forum can either test market this concept or help marketing in universities.

b. I dont know how many are up for this. i think there are probably a committed 100 people who visit this forum. May be we can provide $100 each to TIS-US to help with this situation.

I hope the above helps. I want to make sure that we turn this convesration to how can we help all those involved do not get hurt financially rather than cast aspersions with imperfect information.

[Vysar]

what happened to music college and tsumani relief fund that IR promised?

SWAHA!!!!!!!!!!

[app_engine]

"TIS-US was given CDs at a reduced rate"...

That's definitely not fair, when TiS-USA has loaned to the producer...they should have been given, if there was no other alternative, at least to the extent of the loan amount, free of any charge...(bartering money with CD)...paying loan through commission is atrocious...Tis-USA are lenders and not sales agents...

Again I'm not blaming IR on the above...how do we know it was his decision to make TiS-USA collect their loan through commission? Again, after loaning a huge sum, how can they raise another $40K (or the cost of 8K CDs) to pay up front? Or was it on a credit basis?....questions / questions...no answers...

[kavin]

Interesting discussion - with lots of emotions thrown in for fun!!

My take - Not guilty unless proven guilty

Fr Gaspar had a chance meeting with IR out of the blue and IR told him about his dream and Jegath said we will get the funds, ''even if we have to go to hell''. The very statement with which Fr Gaspar made his first posting in TFM soliciting funds. Are they in 'hell' now? - not surprised.

Tamil Mayam was an unknown entity in this forum and following this project, suddenly they had an immediate impact among IR fans initially and later amongst the tamil people during the pre release promotion and post release glory of TIS. Who knew about them before all this, very few maybe. They have to pay royalty to IR as long as they exist as an organisation for the popularity they reaped due to this association.

[app_engine]

All the above discussion kind of got triggered by a news on a website...

http://www.tamilcinema.com/CINENEWS/Hotnews/2005/oct/291005a.asp


I read that again.

It simply states that while Gaspar & Vincent were discussing with some disti in UK (not finalized), they were shocked to learn that IR has already concluded an agreement with another disti for UK...though the tone and heading is accusatory towards Raja (ezhudhinavar pEr "Vamban":-))

While that may be konjam `kadandha kai' (i.e. taking matters to his own hand and not waiting for / taking into confidence the correct people to finish the deal), it still doesn't allege fraud.

Where does it say that the money out of the proceeds will NOT go to TM?

[app_engine]

Most who frequent this forum are aware of the fate of IR's RPO symphony...while much has been talked / written about it (including the last article in Vikatan about KR taking the cassette to Delhi for Subbudu to listen), it never saw the `release' light...and nobody got a chance to listen.

While many reasons have been told about that, the most probable reason could be IR not having ANY say or control over the producer of that album...thus making it impossible for him to do anything with commercial release...

He would have sensed a similar plight for TiS when it got completed but TM was struggling to find a buyer...(That struggle / despair was obvious from their postings on Tis-USA.com)...would have got panicked, and reasoned to himself like "TiS'll become another `malarndhum malarAdha' effort, unless I wrest control from this inexperienced group...let me use my commercial connections, rope in Kamal-Rajini for publicity due to my friendship, get Vaiko, my fan, to organize some support" etc...

End result - product got released and acclaimed. Now probably he cares less about the mktg capability of TM people...

As long as deals initiated by IR fetches money to TM and they (including their ally Tis-USA) break-even & get their share of profits, why care about which disti is selling it?

[kavin]

Loans are taken either to get out of financial crisis or if a profit is forseen from investments from loans. In this project, the former is not the case and latter is a gamble TM and TIS-USA took and they have to face the consequences. They have to first prove that the claims of loans is authentic if they want to use it as a reason to be bailed out in a public forum. This is the first time I have heard some one taking loans for charity intentions. To me it seemed completely out of order when TISK group appealed to people in this forum to take loans and donate for this project. Total loss of judgement (insane?)- is my take on this.

In spite of repeated pleas to come out with accounts, neither TIS-USA nor TM have come out with accounts. How much was recieved as donations? how much was recieved as corporate sponsorships prior to release? What is the true expense for producing the CD?

1.4 crores for this production does not sound true. Hungarian symphony orchestra - easter european orchestras are cheap because many of then are cash strapped and would welcome anyone if they come with some funds. Stephen Swartz contribution of few lines is not going to cost the earth. neither is the use of studio facilities of Sony or Richard King. If am completely mistaken, then please come out with actual costs.

[vijayr]

"They have to pay royalty to IR as long as they exist as an organisation for the popularity they reaped due to this association."

This is what is called fanaticism. By the same logic IR is forever indebted to TM and his other fans for the popularity he has gained over the few years and also recently, right?
But for TM, IR wouldnt have attained his "piravi payyan", would have had to suffer another birth(how cruel?) and would have been relegated to doing appaasaamy and ammasaamy kind of films for a pittance, since he had no market value in TFM.

[app_engine]

vijayr:-)

[kavin]

For some reason, TIS-USA has led us to believe that this whole effort of TIS is significantly due to the fans' contibution in this TFMpage forum. They continue to believe that financial recovery can be achieved through their repeated plea in this forum.

Either they are naive or they think we are naive.

My guess is that, fans in TFMPage are being milked as much as possible of their money with this persitent soliciting, appealing to them with all possible emotions left. Evidence to this fact is that so many of the DFMers who are confessing the amount they have shelled out and willing to shell out even more in future.

This is an interesting phenomenon in fund generation. Make everyone feel that they are the ones who are most important in this project and make them shell out more and more. It gives the people the sense of ownership and responsibility not only for success but also for failure.

Is there anyone who sincerely believes that either TM and TIS-USA is one day going to come out and say, stop giving us your money. We have made enough. This is a project with a bottomless pit. the more you give the more it wants!!!

If you want to give, please give. Because projects such as this should be supported. What is TM after all, it is an agency with social cause in mind. Fr Gaspar's background is that of Eelam's cause and there are a lot of them willing to give just for this (personal experience). It is the bit about 'going to hell' to achieve a purpose that strikes a wrong chord for me.

Means never justifies end unless one is willing to accept the consequences of the means as well. Don't cry foul when the means go wrong.

[kavin]

Ah, there you are, 'Fanaticism' keep it coming. prove the fanaticism. If you want to take more baits, prove him guilty as well.

What is more than taking loans and being indebted/begging as evidence for fanaticism?

[kavin]

Yes. you are right. IR is forever indebted to his fans for the popularity of his music and also to TM for making TIS happen at this given time. That doesn't mean that he is indebted to his fans for the music he created nor to TM for his compositions for Thiruvasagam. TM didn't enter his mind temporarily to compose the music nor can they claim that TIS would not have happen in future without their help.

It is an issue of taking due credit for their contribution - not more and not less

[vijayr]

"That doesn't mean that he is indebted to his fans for the music he created nor to TM for his compositions for Thiruvasagam."

In the same way, TM does not need to pay any royalty to IR for "gaining popularity". IR gained as much if not more popularity and fame from this venture than TM at a time when his market value was nill and the general public had forgotten him. Plus he has his career/spiritual ambitions fulfilled as well. I could argue that he should be paying TIS-USA and his fans royalty for getting his ambition fulfilled but then it would be as absurd as your assertion.

[kavin]

By the same argument, IR should be trying to regain his market value because of TIS with all the movies he has come out with ever since. By your own admission, he has come out duds with his recent releases. So your argument doesn't hold any water. wake up.

There are no pretensions in any of the recent releases and they have been the same irrespective TIS. Have you not realised that market value means nothing?

TIS does mean a lot. It breaks the shackles that he created around him through market value. How else do you explain a very grandious statement of overcoming rebirth?

Market value of TIS is the least he should expect. But the reach to masses is what he should be more concerned with, not how much money it makes. From what I know, it has always been how much his music reaches people rather than how much money it makes. Popularity is only a means not an end.

[kavin]

Yes, you are right. It would be absurd, to expect him to pay his fans money for buying his CDs. The royalty he should expect from his fans - is appreciation. Patronising as it may sound to you.

IR's plea to buy original CDs and Cassettes is not because he wants the money, but because he wants his producers to atleast make up the cost they incur and make it worthwhile for them.

As any human being would, one wishes to be recognised for what one achieves within their lifetime. Or else how difficult is it for him to leave his compositions unperformed in his lifetime.

[kavin]

How did the arrangement that IR retains copyright to TIS wholly, thus ensuring further distributions rights as well, is beyond my comprehension? If TM agreed to this, what made them helpless in claiming more rights? One explanation I got from sources close to TM, was that TM was afraid TIS will go the way of Grand Symphony 1 as well. That shows how anxious TM was in ensuring the release in spite of financial loss, but they sure thought they had still something to gain. Trying to portray either TIS-USA or TM as innocent victims is this whole saga is naivity.

IR stands tall in his silence and has onely one answer - YIA

[njv]

The story is Fr made lot of money and to avoid paying tax he is "creating" all this news. Now should we believe that. I wouldnt after talking to TISK, but so many ppl do believe.

I would totally stop speculating and work on promoting TIS so that TIS-USA can sell more and even if not they can make money/repay the debts, it will atleast give them their "garage" space. Please all help TIS-USA in whatever way you can.

[baroque]

Friends, If we order one more cd-dvd combo each, that will be a HELP! Come on lets do it. Everything will be OK!
Dr.Shankar I am touched by your mail to the yahoo IR fan club group.
I am positive Shri.Ilayaraaja will save us from this controversy!

[kiru]

..I am positive Shri.Ilayaraaja will save us from this controversy!

He should !!!! Believe me we know his music is great..we are convinced about that..but now it is time for him to convince us about his intentions/stand/modus operandi in this whole TIS financing issue.

[vijayr]

"It breaks the shackles that he created around him through market value. How else do you explain a very grandious statement of overcoming rebirth?
"

ROTFL!!!


"Trying to portray either TIS-USA or TM as innocent victims is this whole saga is naivity. "

Might be, but asking them to pay royalty to IR in this time and hour is stupidity

[vijayr]

"Market value of TIS is the least he should expect. But the reach to masses is what he should be more concerned with, not how much money it makes. "

yeah right, I guess thats why he sold all the rights in USA and UK. Keep it coming, I am enjoying the humour

[kavin]

Thanks. Thats it from me now. Keep the humour.

'Not guilty untill proven guilty'

[baroque]

Kiru, First thing first, shri.Ilayaraaja needs to make a statement on this issue. Please focus on the IMPORTANT thing, How can we get his attention? all I am doing is like you and some others urging HIM to make a statement in the yahoo group. Which is taking us nowhere for now!!

Now, Dr.Shankar, We are going to settle this issue amicably like you stated. We are committed to you, TM, Shri.Ilayaraaja above all TIS- our pride and peace of mind!!

Please friends, try to focus on How we can get Shri.Ilayaraaja to make a statement on this issue!!
Good day! Vinu.

[app_engine]

"shri.Ilayaraaja needs to make a statement on this issue"

Again some naive questions:

a) On what issue? There seems to be many issues...like whether he usurped the rights of the producer or whether he IS a co-producer with his musical skills as equity or whether he got any compensation up-front and still trying to garner more money by selling rights etc...or whether he is uncared by the financial plight of TM (if they really are in such a condition)..or whether he arbitrarily decided that Tis-USA will get only CD's (that too for a price) and not their loan back from TM...

b) Why should you get a statement ONLY from IR when TM or TIS-USA themselves are not publishing a white paper (i.e. at least their own versions of answers to questions like the above)?

c) Do you just need IR to make a statement that 'My hands are clean, my heart is pure'..idhellAm mediakkAranga seiyyura vambu? Will you be satisfied with that? Or do you need complete accounts / profit & loss statement etc..?

ada pOngappA...nadakkuRa kAriyam ennannu pArungO...statement from IR pOgAdha oorukku vazhi...

[cry_sandiego]

App engine,

:-)) .. I like your comments !!


I have reading this thread on this controversy... I will write my views shortly.

Cheers
MSk

[baroque]

app engine, Yes, you are correct! I don't know where else to plea! I just hope, HR(IR) will take the leadership and make this controversy go away!! I want TIS-USA and tamil maiyam not to lose money, above all I just want to help(in my own stupid way! though I understand helping is one thing, enabling is another!) You seem to have better grasp of the situation. then why are you people pondering over it, you seem to post long long postings, with my son's school needs I yet read fully!! good day my friend! vinu.

[baroque]

I just not stupidly urging for shri.Ilayaraaja's statement.I believe Shri.Ilayaraaja can help TM/TIS-USA for their financial commitments(if they have any loans) as a professional involved in this great project. I contributed to TIS project, bought some cds, sold some cds, continue to work hard to see TIS-USA sells their cds to cover the loan commitments!. After all this hard work put by many of us, today's condition is very hurtful and confusing!! so my plea to shri.Ilayaraaja is come and rescue us so that we get back to our normal life.

[kiru]

An hypothetical press release from IR -
"There are reports in the press, that I have personally acquired the rights of TIS and am trying to profit from it. This is really not true. The copyrights and distribution rights continue to be owned by Tamil Mayyam and the IR non-profit foundation. Fr. Jegath, Vincent and TIS-USA have done a great service in bringing this music out for the benefit of our youngsters. I really appreciate their work for this project. They will continue to have my support in all ways. I urge the public not to pirate either TIS or any album. These projects are costly to execute and without the support of the public such projects cannot happen again in the future"

[kiru]

I have a doubt whether the communication channels between TM/TIS-USA and IR are in good condition. It is upto a third-party like Dr.Vijay from the yahoo groups to step in and make this sort of a press release happen.

[baroque]

Kiru, this would be nice!! But my concerns are about Tamil maiyam and TIS-USA team loan commitments(if any?????????)! Clearing the controversy is important for Raaja's image, for us (in the very first post when this trouble started Dr.shankar's response to it is very troubling for some of us!) I hope it is just a misunderstanding between IR,TM and TIS-USA. If we get the attention of Shri.Ilayaraaja in this matter we can atleast hope to resolve the loan issues(if any???) too with HIS help! How can we help other than what we are doing now? anyway...
As I told Raaja's fans are committed to Shri.ilayaraja,Tamil maiyam,TIS-USA team. we worked hard to bring TIS album.
There is no problem in this world without solution!
There is no PERFECT solution for any problem. Only we can try!!

[app_engine]

Or if someone has KR's or YSR's e-mail ID (definitely they should have if not IR himself), send the link of this thread to them...if the ID is published here, there could be a bunch of mails too...

[app_engine]

http://www.hindu.com/2005/11/04/stories/2005110404950200.htm

With this kind of adulation in Madurai (population > 1 mn) and elsewhere in south TN, it shouldn't have been difficult to sell TiS (cassettes if not CDs) 100's of 1000's in TN itself...

Just watch, Jaya TV may have the CD/DVD rights for this program and they may sell that to some production /disti company for millions...apart from getting a bumper revenue thru ad sponsors for the telecasts...

paNam paNNuvadhu silarukku kai vandha kalai...silarukku kittAdha kani...

[baroque]

app engine, now can you agree with me Why it is important to have shri.Ilayaraaja's attention, his statements in this regard? I am asking you genuinely, if you think it is stupid idea, then lets go back to what we know the best-try to sell cds as much as we can! Productive aa resolve pannalam if there is a misunderstanding. It is sad for Raaja lovers like me. I am looking forward to HIS future works, I thought this TIS album is just a beginning,Hope this controversy will not destruct my aasai!! Raaja we love your music so much! We want you to Conquer the world with your music! Love, Vinu.

[app_engine]

Ofcourse I agree with you baroque that the producers (TM/TIS-USA) should get IR's attention, i.e. if they already do not have that...and if possible, get his assistance in marketing / promotion to break-even & profit...not to ask him for money but ask for, say, a promotional appearance or concert in Madurai for 1 hour to play select TbI portions in thamukkam maidhAnam and the ticket will include a cassette...something like that...or a series of concerts in main TN cities...It's so common abroad for performers to promote their products / help producers and other causes...

(though I still don't agree with you on one count, i.e. I don't believe in `statements' generally...actions speak louder than words)

[baroque]

Yes, true!! I agree with you. I also want His attention for something real help, thats loans if any for the producers!
Regarding loan commitments(if any????) I strongly believe TM or TIS-usa team(if they need?) we can approach Shri.Ilayaraaja's help! He will be happy help.

Regarding tamilcinema news, authentication yenna yerukku ippo? that too that's between Raaja and tamilcinema, as much as i care about Raaja's image, if he is fine ignoring, I am too!!
Lets pay attention to important things!

[MADDY]

http://www.hindu.com/2005/11/04/stories/2005110404950200.htm

With this kind of adulation in Madurai (population > 1 mn) and elsewhere in south TN, it shouldn't have been difficult to sell TiS (cassettes if not CDs) 100's of 1000's in TN itself...

paNam paNNuvadhu silarukku kai vandha kalai...silarukku kittAdha kani...

Hindu's story was a bit of a joke, but can u xplain wat u meant by ur last line??? :D

[app_engine]

Maddy, I simply meant you got to be smart to make money...(proof - someone like Jaya TV is making a lot of money using the popularity of the same person who is blamed for the financial woes of TM & TIS-USA...)

[rajasaranam]

MAD MAD MADDY,

You dont understand tamil not even english why bother coming here :P
grow up and remain in that DUD's forums

Ithu enga veetu sandai you keep you *** and mouth shut :twisted:

[app_engine]

rs, do you mean grown ups should remain in dud forums?:-))

[baroque]

"IIR thru another source has seccured the copyright in USA! " Can Shri.Ilayaraaja legally do that?
Is he a producer of TIS too? How can he do that? Can you people help me with this part???

[MADDY]

Maddy, I simply meant you got to be smart to make money...(proof - someone like Jaya TV is making a lot of money using the popularity of the same person who is blamed for the financial woes of TM & TIS-USA...)

yup that is true app.......TV channel guys' are the sharpest business minds in the world today....... :D

rs sir, the language used in the article was really funny and contradictory to its own statements......that's y i termed it as a joke......

pakkathu veetla sanda nadakumbodhu, poi vizarikkama irukarathu tamilan panbadu illai, adhanaaldhan naan ingu nilamaiyai paarvai ida vandhaen..... :wink:
i really hope fans of IR dunt get affected financially here, that's it......that's y i'm tracking this forum.....

[njv]

Ithu enga veetu sandai you keep you *** and mouth shut :twisted:

Nachchunnu irukku - tamil murasu maari.

[baroque]

Honestly, namba veetuley sandai vandhuyerukka koodadhu!! what a shame!!
SICK OF IT!! Will it ever be the same????????

[Sanjeevi]

[tscii:0490e25e58]
"I don't like this would be a true. It may be a lie or Gossip or happened due to misunderstanding. Nothing to worry about Raja's conduct."

Sanjeevi, ungaLa maari aaLunga irukkarava varaikkum iLayarajavukku kavalaiye illa :-)

what do you mean?

Naan oru pathirikkai (including internet portals) puzhu. Also i know some reporters. Ungalai vida enakku ivangala pathi nallavae theriyum. Ivargal news podarathu eppadinu theriyuma ungalukku.

Coming back to reportors of dailies.


Remember all reporters should submit their articles to almost every issue. If a reporter couldn’t get any news, then what he will do?. It is simple, he will contact other reporter or different magazines/dailies. Then he collect some news and submit to editor or something else. Unfortunately most of the reporters don’t know or don’t want to know the reality of that news.

Naan nakkiran mathiri sila weekly padikirathundu. But athila 25% unmai irunthalae athikam. Pathirikkaila varathu ellam namburavangala partha enakku pavama irukkum. They are not unmai vilambigal.

Even some or many court judgments was wrong even after completion of all type of verification.

IMHO, IR selfish-a irukkalam allathu illama irukkalaam. But ellarukkum mikka santhosatha kodukkura music kodukuraar. [/tscii:0490e25e58]

[rajdes]

vijay, are you implying that IR
a)is trying to take advantage of TIS in whatever manner? Do you have irrefutable information regarding this?
b)is in the wrong viz a viz this issue that has raised?

Or you simply want to poke fun at blind belief in him? If so, why leave an open-ended statement that could defame IR? If not, do you believe that "blind fanatics irukkura varaikkum IR-kku kavalai illai. So he WILL take advantage of it."? If so, why do you believe so? I think these questions need an answer - bashing IR fanatics cannot, will not and should not be a valid reason for bashing IR.

[rajasaranam]

pakkathu veetla sanda nadakumbodhu, poi vizarikkama irukarathu tamilan panbadu illai, adhanaaldhan naan ingu nilamaiyai paarvai ida vandhaen..... :wink:
i really hope fans of IR dunt get affected financially here, that's it......that's y i'm tracking this forum.....

Thanks for your concern... Aana nilamaiyai paarvai iduvathodu niruthikoanga " Nari Aatukku naatamai panna vaendam" :)

[rajasaranam]

Honestly, namba veetuley sandai vandhuyerukka koodadhu!! what a shame!!
SICK OF IT!! Will it ever be the same????????

Vinu,

It was the same, is the same and will be the same for me. You need not carry this matter obssesively too much. Go find some nice IR songs, listen and get cool. :)

[baroque]

Rajasaranam, I will do so, vera yenna panna mudiyum.
Yenakku very idea of TIS-USA has been given some cds and ontop of it they have secured the copy rt through some other source is bothering me! Recognition for hardwork is IMPORTANT!!
Don't they care??

Yes, I am taking a break from this issue which I can't resolve!! Dr.Shankar, Thanks a lot for everything you have done!! Love, vinu.

[Bala Ramasamy]

[tscii:fcfd42e0d5]Ilayaraja’s bestseller CD makes losses
- By B. Kolappan Deccan Chronicle, Chennai.



Chennai, Oct. 23: Music maestro Ilayaraja’s CD Thiruvasagam, a Shiva-worship oratorio done with Budapest Symphony Orchestra, has made history of sorts in Tamil Nadu by recording the highest sales in recent times, even overtaking the hugely popular music track of superstar Rajnikant’s latest hit Chandramukhi.

Ironically, the producer of the CD, Tamil Maiyam, an organisation founded by a Catholic priest, Father Jagath Gaspar Raj, has not benefited at all. Lapses in marketing have led to losses of about Rs 62 lakhs for the organisation. "The distributor, Well Gate, told us that it has sold 35,000 CDs and 25,000 cassettes of the album. I was able to mobilise around Rs 44 lakhs through sponsorship and sales in the US. But the amount is nowhere near the total cost of the production, which is Rs 1.06 crore. As far as we are concerned, it is a successful project that ended up giving us losses," said Father Gaspar Raj.

Many stores in Chennai said they did not get adequate stocks and credit was not allowed. Credit is normally allowed in the music business. However, anticipating good sales, marketing strategy was based on a no-credit policy. This led to a shortage when the demand was really hot. "Normally, the distributors supply their products on credit. In the case of Thiruvasagam, we had to pay up first to get the CDs and cassettes. This is unheard of in the music business," said G.P. Sharma of the Saraswathi Stores, one of the biggest music stores in Chennai that is owned by AVM.

Other shop-owners said delays in the release of cassettes also led to losses. "People in rural areas prefer cassettes to CDs and the company was unable to supply enough cassettes in time," said an official associated with the project.

Market sources said Ilayaraja’s popularity, coupled with the pre-release media hype, ensured the success of Thiruvasagam. "At least 40 per cent of the credit should go to the media," said a musicologist.

Written by famous Shaivite saint Manickavasagar in the 8th century, Thiruvasagam has been a great favourite among Tamils as a rendition of total surrender to Lord Shiva. Ilayaraja accomplished his "lifetime ambition" of composing music for the bhakti masterpiece.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

What this article missed to tell you was this....


1. That IR wanted a marketing outfit totally under his control....who will do what he wants them to do...including cooking up of accounts to Tamil Mayyam. That is obvious from the sales nos they have thrown out.

2. And the company chosen by him...Welgate Audio...owned by one Mr. Varghese.......

Who is this man, you know? One of the biggest pirates of the Kerala Film Industry.....completely banned by all the industry trade associations in Kerala...that no one from the industry should do business with him in any capacity. Hence he shifted his base to Chennai. Has paid a huge sum of money to IR for his multi lingual movie TTLS........

It is obvious he does not know how the music industry works. Otherwise so many retailers and distributors in the trade would not have been so upset with him in this Tis distribution. Who else will ask the distris and retailers to pay in advance and take delivery when the industry practice is to the opposite?

But then IR was always interested in his short term monetary gains than any long term goals.

Forget all those talk of "I want every one to contribute to this project like the building of temples by the Kings in olden days.......I am not in this for money ...I could have done it myself if I wanted..bla bla.......

And also the gradoise goals of building this music school there and tsunami relief here.........all a big joke for the uninitiated. Certainly not for people who have known this man and his personal character.

He is a good musician. But certainly not a good human being.

So folks, don't pounce on me. Just because you have closed your eyes......the truth will not go away. It is already dark.[/tscii:fcfd42e0d5]

[rajdes]

and pray, Bala Ramasamy, what is the source for your opinions? Personal Character, eh? Neenga enna pakkathula irundhu paarthengala ellathaiyum? Appadi paarthirundha, dhairyam irundhaa, spit out publicly the reasons why you think so - defamation suit-appadinnu oru vishayam irukku theriyuma?

"Who else will ask the distris and retailers to pay in advance and take delivery when the industry practice is to the opposite? "
If industry practice is so, why did they agree to make an exception in this case. Why, they went to the negotiation table with a willing suspension of brains, eh?
app_engine sonna maadhiri, "tso..tso..aiyo paavam!"

[kiru]

rajdes, normally I would not take posts like the one above seriously. But we have reports of Wellgate being favored by IR for distribution rights. And now we know Wellgate is also the producer of TTLS, which means they have had an opportunity to pay IR for his services, albeit in a different context. So I see a 'prima facie' case for a 'conflict of interest' situation here. Before you jump into conclusion about my intentions here, please note I am a fan of IR's music based on the number of posts and even an article on these pages here.

Just like I helped Tamil Mayyam and TIS-USA to bring out TIS in my own small way. I feel, I am obliged now to help them address this issue even legally if it does not get resolved amicably !!!

[rajdes]

kiru, you dont have to bring in the IR fan angle - I am not going to rip you for daring to question IR's motives and in any cae I am not arguing that IR is a saint and he can do no wrong :-) - all I am looking for is some logic and sense in the way you put the allgation. If IR has been in the wrong, whoever wants to put it here, please have the guts to say so openly with facts and details - I can take your allegation because there is some logic in the way you argue. Throwing allegations, inuendos , personal attacks on IR just based on one's personal hate for him ,is not acceptable. Infact, I can see that you(kiru) are able see it impassionately and present a logical reason why you believe what you believe. That is not the case with the previous post - that post was personal hate translated to english words.

Besides, again , I repeat - industry practice, convention ellaam I wont accept - if people havent made a proper business agreement, and they are suffering because of that, then I can only echo app_engine's "aiyo paavam". Grown-ups have to take care of themselves.If IR has taken advantage of the lack of agreement and used it to his benefit(which, I remind you, has not yet been posted here even as an allegation - forget as a fact or story) , it is not that such a scenario wasnt predicted here. Friendship vera, fandom vera, business vera. Ippadi ellam nadnandhjirundhaal, Idhai purindhu kooladavargalukku, idhu oru lesson, paadam appadinnu dhaan ennala solla mudiyum. Trust me, I have learnt it the hard way - that is why I am able to put it in such cruel words.

[rajdes]

"He is a good musician. But certainly not a good human being.
"
and idhellam romba over - to conclude this based on an unsubstantiated allegation ... oh well this is a public forum and I suppose it is Bala's prerogative to post this as his opinion - but I have every right to ridicule this because forget substantiating an allegation, the allegation itself hasnt been made here openly and unambiguously.

[rajdes]

vijayr, are you implying that IR

a)is trying to take advantage of TIS in whatever manner? Do you have irrefutable information regarding this?
b)is in the wrong viz a viz this issue that has raised?

Or you simply want to poke fun at blind belief in him? If so, why leave an open-ended statement that could defame IR? If not so, do you believe that "blind fanatics irukkura varaikkum IR-kku kavalai illai. So he WILL take advantage of it."? If so, why do you believe so? I think these questions need an answer - bashing IR fanatics cannot, will not and should not be a valid reason for bashing IR.



Reposting this since I want an answer to this - do you guys have some information which 'incriminates' IR which you are holding back? If so, why would you not share it?
If you dont have such information, why would you tacitly or otherwise defame IR?
I, for one, will have nothing but contempt for the inuendos until they become allegations atleast, let alone becoming established facts.

[mr_karthik]

Last 10 pages padichathum enna thOnuthunnA........

ActualA enna nadandhathunnu theriyalai....

AnA ennavO nadandhirukkunnu mattum theriyuthu....

[ganspb]

Legends never talk, they just deliver. At times they may see things in a different perspective.
Have been an active browser of this forum but posted since ages.
I have to thank whatever service TISK did to delivering Thiruvasagam for fans like me in USA.I pray almighty to relieve him of any monetary debts but definitely by doing this service for all the fans he has grown leaps and bounds from the spiritual perspective.
For a change I would like to share something good about TIS.My 5year old and 2&1/2 old wants to listen to TIS all the time. They danced along with other girls in that age group a couple of weeks ago in one of the Tamil Sangam functions for Muthu Natrchamam Poo Malai Thooki and it was very well received. There were lot of opinions about IR''s music in TIS but all I can say that is, if it is captivating kids, then it will last forever and go with the History. So far with my selected American colleques whom I gifted the CD also felt that this is a very simple, unique music which expresses the emotions in a subtle way. I stopped thinking long time ago about how much name and fame which IR got or will get with this Album because I believe strongly that his name will be etched in History for presenting this one and only kind of Unique Album.
Sorry for the long post.

[vijayr]

rajdes, my post was a reaction to TISK's past and present posts regarding this issue(this is not the first time he is posting about this) and some of the subsequent comments. You are entitled to your opinions, whatever it may be on this issue. You have to address your further queries to TIS-USA or TM on this.

[rajdes]

vijay, but what you have posted is simply a slur on IR(the one I have quoted), whether you intended it that way or not. If you are comfortable with that, I have no problem. I dont understand why a reaction to someone has the right to end up as a strong or ambiguous statement on an artist's character.
From what I can see, your hate for the blind followers of IR is clearly biasing you against IR(that too personally, not even his music). Which is sad.
Well, if I may say so, many a time, your eagerness to put down blind fanatics ends up painting artists, particularly IR, in a bad light.

It seems fashionable here to diss or throw inuendos at an artist based on his fans' reaction - which he hardly can control.
(This is my opinion and I am not going to argue with you on this - if you werent comfortable with this perception, you wouldnt be doing it anyway, would you?)

If you look back at the post I quoted, it is clearly an indictment of IR( I mean, "blind fans irukkara varaikkum IR-ukku kavalai illai". Look at this statement impassionately (think you didnt make this statement) and tell me if it doesnt lead to "yes he will take advantage of it".

Secondly, I particularly addressed you because of the above reason - somehow, IMO, you dont seem to realise that you end up throwing flames on IR while aiming those at IR fans.(Kuri thappiddhu). If you cant see that now, I cant make you see that so it is up to you, really.

Till now, TISK hasnt made any inuendo on IR so I will not take it up with him.( I respect him for that - he is the direct affected party but till date, he hasnt made a single claim/allegation/inuendo at all which shows he is an evolved human being).
But you have,deliberately or otherwise, made a statement that is an inuendo so I would expect you to alteast clarify that
a)either you didnt intend it that way as an inuendo and that you dont believe that IR will take advantage and that it was just a reaction to thumburu or thops or whoever.

b) or if you did and do believe IR will take advantage, the back up reasons for that belief - come on, every claim you make here in this forum, you substantiate - why not this one?

Helping TISK and his co-sufferers is one thing - throwing inuendos is quite another

[kiru]

rajdes, TISK is a gentleman..we all can infer that. When he says good things about the music and talent of IR, but he is silent about his character/attitude, I am beginning to suspect.

[Vysar]

When close friends and family moved away from IR (Bharathiraaja, Gangai Amaran, Mani Ratnam, Balachandar etc..), I stuck with IR since I felt IRs ego drove them away. I thought thats the only weakness in him. Now the fans are directly affected by money minded IR. I bought 5 CDs just to promote TIS but now he cheated his fans by under the table deal.

[kiru]

I have created a Yahoo group for people who donated money for TIS, but now would like to know how things are going with the TIS financing/marketing.
Lets see if there is a will, we can pursue legal action to make sure public money is not being for personal profiteering.

Post message: TISSupporters@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe: TISSupporters-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe: TISSupporters-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
List owner: TISSupporters-owner@yahoogroups.com

[njv]

I have created a Yahoo group for people who donated money for TIS, but now would like to know how things are going with the TIS financing/marketing.
Lets see if there is a will, we can pursue legal action to make sure public money is not being for personal profiteering.

Post message: TISSupporters@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe: TISSupporters-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe: TISSupporters-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
List owner: TISSupporters-owner@yahoogroups.com

I am talking from the business perspective.

Lets say IR is holding copyright for TIS in USA by himself/thru other. From business point of view what difference it makes to TIS-USA?

1. If IR along with his "other" partnership release TIS-CD in USA at the same time TIS-USA launched the CD,then TIS-USA would have been financially impacted - This didnt happen

2. If IR along with his "other" partnership release TIS-CD now/in future, it will have some impact to TIS-USA on a long run TIS will be an ever selling album. So far this didnt happen. So give the benefit of doubt to IR, because we are after all his fans!

3. If IR along with his "other" partnership release TIS-CD in other part of the world, it would have impact to Tamil maiyam (and hence TIS-USA, since TIS-USA funded majority of the money). Is it the case.

3.a TIS is being marketted by AgniMusic in Malaysia. Is this agreement between IR and Agni or TM and Agni? Who can answer this question

3.b. In UK and Canada, Indian edition of TIS (Welgate) is being sold. Who is marketting Indian edition of TIS in UK/USA. Is it TM or IR thru' his "other" partnership?

3.c Who is selling TIS in other tamil populated countries such as Srilanka, Middle East, France (believe me, Paris this is the hub of thiruttu vcd!)

One of these 3 (TM, TIS-USA, IR, Welgate which is telling that they only sold 35000 CDs in India) people has to respond. Unless one of them respond, there is no point for us to speculate.

[kavin]

I bought my Thiruvasagam CD in UK this week released by Ramiy Records which comes with buy one and get one free. The free CD is ThiruvaNamalai Ramanamaalai by IR.

[kavin]

This belief that TIS was possible only because of TIS-USA and the contribution of IR fans, is a myth that belongs to TFMPage forum. Anyone who disagrees, can you give me evidence to the contrary.

TM goofed up marketing and distribution plans. THey were short sighted and pleaded in this forum for plans and ideas for marketing which is pretty amateurish. It is good that after the initial goof up, the marketing and distribution now rests in the hands of more professional and shrewd man who seems to have taken up on himself to ensure its survival.

TISK is the first person who sowed the seeds of speculation with statements such as 'HE knows' as a two paise to the press reports and 'HE has done more than this'. His continued silence after his last posting which triggered this whole debate in this forum, is like 'killi vittu vedikai parkiradhu' madhiri.

Lets have some authentic information to back any claims. Otherwise let this remain an entertainment confined to this forum.

Starting an yahoo group !!?? for legal action? I am curious.

[multinamatheyan]

In Canada, Ayngaran was supposed to be distributing. But the Canadian store did not get the CDs for the longest time - actually I don't know even now if they have it. Every time I called them they kept saying that they will receive it soon from London.

I voluntered to be the tis-usa contact in Canada. I, together with some of my friends planned a release function for the local Tamil media in Toronto, but were discouraged from doing so by two factors:

1 - Within days of the release of the album, the Toronto market was flooded with Indian copies and pirate copies. Pirate copies were selling for as low as $5 Canadian. We felt these crooks would benefit from any promotion we had, becasue we did not have a proper distribution mechanism. None of us owned any stores or anything.

2 - When I talked to Ayngaran they could not confirm or deny that they were going to be the official distributers. So, we could not even have a promotion saying get your copies at Ayngaran. Besides they did not have the copies - atleast for a month after the release.

Through it all, I managed to sell a little over 100 copies through my personal contacts. To put this number into perspective, Toronto is home to atleast 250,000 Eelam Tamils many of whom are devout Saivites. There is also a large population of TN Tamils.

Halfway through this mess, my only purpose of continuing to be a part of this was to help a noble soul - TISK.

I am extremely disappointed and angry with the way this was botched up by whom ever was responcible for organizing the distribution. The more I talk to people, the more I think it is none other than IR himself.

As someone who vehemently supported this project from it's on set, I am also disappointed that I have lost the enthusiasm I had for this project and will never be a part of another similar venture. Optimism has given way to sceptisism.

I hope TM and TISK come out of this with their souls and bank accounts intact.

I also hope this experience does not interfere with my ability to enjoy the music of my favourite musician. My TIS cd has been collecting dust for about four weeks now, after being played every day since I received the copy. I hope it is a phase, and I come out of it.

ellaam iraivan arul.

Multinamatheyan

[cry_sandiego]

Guys( Including my good friend Kiru),

I guess we are all going a little overboard here. calling IR as " not a good human being" etc.. No-one has enough information or right to say that against IR for that matter any person.. You can criticize his work etc.. but you have no right to make personal remarks about his character.. As far as I know ( I have met IR once and spent almost 2 days with him in USA ) he could be a very nice person or a very bad person in character or anywhere in between depending on what your definition of ethic/character.. etc.. I do not know anything about him other than his MUSIC. So I will constrain my comments/opinions/criticisms within that domain.

So let's stop personal bashing here.. Please.

Also, First, a donation is what it is ..a donation. Period. Either you trust the person/group/organization and donate money for a cause.. or for your personal satisfaction .. But the basic premise is that "You do not expect anything in return ". If you do , then it is not a donation anymore.. it's an investment..

Next, how the Donation money gets spent .. for the cause that the donation was made.. or misused.. i did not see anyone including TISK ( TISK is the one of the very very few people here in this DF who know what really happened and has worked Hard in helping with the TIS project ) have not alleged misuse of funds. All the donations were spent on making the TIS ( the various aspects like recording, mastering , etc..)

Second. there are discussions on who is sharing the revenue ( not profit ).. Now that is logistics.. Tamil Maiyyam and IR ( and his musical trust ) are the administrators/partners of this project. So if there is a problem between them let them sort it out.. who are we to take sides. If TM did not have good contract in place with IR or other agencies then that is their shortcoming.. OR if IR was not smart enough to work the legal logistics then it is his problem. WHo are we to make comments/criticise either of them.

You might say, i donated money and expected it the money to be used for TiS and not for some personal expenses.. That is true.. Like i said before, no-one is complaining about the mis-use of funds.. Like IR used the money for himself and had a good time in Hungary. TM swindled/mis-used the money etc.. The money was meant to create TIS - and that was exactly happened.. So deal over. Move on.

If you think the donation was mis-used, please do not donate the next time they come asking for money. That's it.. When you donate money to Katrina Relief , Tsunami relief do you care to go ask for the accounts of those relief agencies..? No .. Why.. b;cos you trust that they will make good use of the money for the purpose intended.. if you are not satisfied with their work you just do not give money next time.. that's all.. Asking for IR to come out with a personal statement etc are all way too much..especially when you are not involved in any way.

Infact, When I donated $500 to TiS-USA for TIS. I did not expect anything.. ( as a matter of fact i was expecting a complimentary copy of TiS) in return. The reasons for donating it are

1. Love for IR's music
2. Love for Religion/God/Thiruvasagam
3. Love for Tamil.

After donating money in mid last year, i checked TiS-USA page almost everyday to check the progress of TiS and once the cd came out, i bought a few and have enjoyed it thoroughly. So i got more than what i expected for. And I am enjoying it every day or weekl. and infact I am thinking that every extra listen is like a bonus..Expecially considering all the junk CD's that we pay $9.99 and do not listen to more than once.

I would have cared anything about TiS only if the TIS was not released. I would not even have cared if i did not like the songs as there was no guarantee that i would like the songs..

OK. we are done with Donors.

Finally, let's look at the people who spent their personal time, efforts and took loans to help TIS. I do not know what exactly happened so i may be totally off here...

First if they gave the borrowed money to TIS project as a donation then it's not TiS's problems..Thanakku minchiyathuthaan thaanam. So if you borrowed money to make a donation.. The intentions are very good, Efforts appreciated.. All IR fans are thankful .. but that does'nt mean you can expect the donations to be paid back, or some accounting P&L sent to you every month.. That's not right.. Even UNICEF/UN the biggest organizations that get millions in donations do not do that..

Next, if anyone borrowed and got personal loans and spent the money on TiS Promotion/efforts , then again your intentions are great, you probably have the same love for IR's Music/Tamil/God/Thiruvasagam etc and
efforts are appreciated.. but if you are expecting something monetary in return.. Sorry, I think I do not sympathize with you.

Finally, if you borrowed money and in turn, gave the money to TiS-project as a loan, then you can do whatever you are legally permitted to do. How did TiS borrow the money - against what security. What was the interest rate. what are the penalties.. and you can go to court either here in USA or in India.

So what is the confusion here .??? Why are we arguing this..instead of talking about the album... Why do we care who has the rights to this CD. who made so much money... B'cos we donated some $$?? I do not see any logic here.

The problem arises, only when you helped TiS team/project for anything other than listening to and enjoy the Album.


Cheers
MSK

[app_engine]

MSK, good post...the funniest part is total silence from all those directly connected with the business...

1. All that the DF'ers are jumping about is a website's gossip (ezhudhina AL pEr `vamban')...`neruppillAmal pugaiyumA' is probably the approach but deliberate efforts to defame a popular person are not uncommon in today's world...even if there's some substance to the allegation, how much of the published matter is correct and what way it proves that IR is at wrong or wellgate did fraud?...inefficiency and fraud are not the same...All the discussions based on that article are thus in vain, unless there is corroborative info from other quarters...(I know personally that at times UTTER LIES are used to publish propaganda by even JV, from the reputed AV group on the name `investigative journalism')...

Based on some postings of TISK and that of some DFers close to TIS-USA, it can be inferred that they have financial commitments that have to be mended through sales commissions, which is obviously unfair, though no one has directly alleged IR for this peculiar condition...why it could even possibly be a mess-up by TM...Once again, if they had to scramble through finacing to loan to TM even initially (i.e. for the making of the album), how can they be in a position to once again raise money for buying the 8K CD's is another question...(even on credit is not fair, however, and they should not accept to that condition...money loaned should be returned as money unless they have agreed otherwise beforehand)...

Sueing? What are the legal grounds? If there are, definitely can be and should be done...but who can tell whether there are...all here are just speculating...

[vijayr]

Rajdes, TISK has more than hinted at IR's behaviour in this matter. His exact words after reading tamilcinema report was "IR did more than this!". To me thats not an innuendo but close to an allegation and hence my response. And he mentioned about this issue long before it appeared in tamilcinema, about 1 or 2 months back. At that time I didnt write anything about that issue here, but could feel that he was hinting at something. And apart from TISK, rajasaranam who has met Fr.Jegath has also said that all is not well. So I wonder why you would have to ask me specifically. And more recently multinamatheyan above has also added more in this regard. My instant reaction to their posts fueled by the sympathy I have for TISK's efforts is justified(atleast in my mind) and I cant help it if you happen to perceive it(my comment on Sanjeevi's post which encourages everyone to close their eyes and pretend everything is fine even after the affected party has posted otherwise) as an unfair slur on IR which I didnt intend it to be that way(My comment could be read as "even if IR had really done something wrong he need not worry as long as fans like you are there"). And you also know very well, having seen me post in other threads,that if I want to diss or criticize IR for anything I will do that directly rather than doing it via criticizing some HCIRF's posts. If I think IR is a jerk I will say so without mincing any words. And in this case, even an intended slur on IR might not be all that unfair considering what I have read and heard so far from all around the net and from what I have heard of IR even before the TIS issue.

[rajasaranam]

Kiru,

Donor list is here
http://www.tamilmm.com/donorslist.html

The Money collected by TM Has been clearly indicated while There is no such Specifics for money collected by TIS-USA. any reason TISK :? Kovamo varuthamo pada vaendam Unga mela nambikkai irukku . Summa therinjikalaamnu oru aarvathula kaetkiraen :)

[vijayr]

to cry_sandiego -if the reverse had happened, i.e. if there was a tamilcinema report that TM had sold all the rights without IR's knowledge and had left IR in the lurch - would you have still asked us to ignore everything and move on? TIS dhaan vandhaache, IR yemaandha enna, kashtapatta enna'nnu vittuduveengaLa? I am sure you would have raised an issue about it in this forum. So now when IR is not the victim, you want everyone to ignore the issue and move on happily, unmindful of the fact that some of those responsible for the accomplishment are still suffering.

[Vysar]

"The following is a partial list of donors in the US. Please bear with us while we update this list to reflect the latest information. If you have donated and your name is missing, or if you wish to remain anonymous please send an email to the webmaster"

[kavin]

The main beneficiaries in this controversy are Tamil Mayam and TIS-USA since they risk going into oblivion if they do not trumpet their contribution to TIS. So they need to keep this issue alive to get maximum 'mileage' out of TIS (mileage is recognition and more funds to fulfill their own agenda). TM has made its gains from this project, not monetarily but in terms of what they can achieve in future. TISK is either a loser or wants more.

IR has done his bit and if TIS survives beyond fifty years, it will carry his name and not TIS-USA or TM. A very similar relationship as Manikavasagar and the madurai king.

Manikavasagr was given vast sum of money and was directed by the king to proceed to the east coast and procure quality horses that were being traded there. Instead Manikavasagar adopted the life of a mendicant, and spent all his wealth renovating the temple at Tirupperunturai dedicated to Shiva. The king, upon seeing no sign of the promised horses or his esteemed chief minister, sent out emissaries in search and was enraged to hear of what had happened. Manikavasagar was admonished and condemned to be tortured.

Who is more important, the king or manikavasagar?

[kavin]

vijayr,

the reverse doesn't work the way you mention.

The true reversal of position, is if TM release TIS with their name as composers and not IR. In which case even you would cry foul!!!

or

if IR spent his money to make TIS and TM sells the rights for the product without IR's knowledge and make profits. in which case also you wouldl cry foul!!!

[kiru]

MSK,
I am not jumping into any conclusions about IR. But I am really upset and angered by what I am reading. I am more than 100% certain Father and TISK are not happy with the way things are being handled. I dont even have time to post here. But I made an effort to create the group because I feel the people who donated to TIS are in the right in asking how the money was spent and what is happening to the proceeds of the sales.

Your analogy with Katrina relief and other organizations is incorrect. Any agency that is accepting donations as a non-profit has their accounts audited by IRS. I am under the impression TIS-USA and Tamil Mayyam are also non-profits more or less. Or atleast, that is the impression the public were given based on statements like the proceeds will be spent for Music college, Tsunamic etc. This is where the legal angle gets murky. Anyways, surely the money was spent on producing TIS, but the proceeds royalties, commissions etc should also be accounted for . Moreover since, production money has been raised through personal loans as well and it is owed by TIS Foundation and TM to their loaners. So these two outfits need enough tools/instruments (like copyrights) to leverage the sale proceeds and settle the debts.

I am not sure whether I have the energy to carry through the legal action or not. But I will surely enable it. I pay for what I think is the right thing to do. If I donated for TIS, I will donate for legal action so that TM and TIS-USA get their due rights. Even if legal action is delayed/not feasible, there are other mechanisms like campaigning for boycott of albums, writing to the press etc.

Believe me my friend, I am really angered and upset :-(

[deepakkt]

The problem arises, only when you helped TiS team/project for anything other than listening to and enjoy the Album.



MSK,

My objectives for donating to this project were two fold

- The album must come out (happened), and I am grateful for that
- TM/TIS-USA must breakeven (looks like didn't happen, and based on what is looming, doesn't look good)
- Anything else +ve is a bonus.

I have read/heard on what Fr. and TISK went through to materialize this project.

There are also reports that the project is a big success in terms of hype and demand. Sales figures are hazy, but in theory must be good.

Originally, SaReGaMa was supposed to market this product - suddenly out of no where WellGate comes out to market.

From a personal perspective, I got a copy of the CD at my house, but I am not very happy seeing how Fr/TISK. Even more than a great musician, my towering respect for IR was for the person he was. Like several others had pointed out, unless TISK/Fr/IR say something, we are all speculating - but I don't have a very good feeling about this situation. In Dr. Vijay's mail in IR Groups, Fr has clearly indicated that there was a difference of opinion between TM and IR in terms of marketing.

IR is usually a person who goes in terms of 'my way - take it or leave it'. I actually used to admire him for that, since it is straight and no-nonsense. But it won't work for this project, since it has been publicly funded - and people are neck deep in loans. Perhaps, TM made a mistake by not working out the legalities upfront. May be because of the stature and respect IR commanded. I am clear that I cannot speak much without full knowledge, which is why my request that IR/Fr/TISK come out with a statement soon.

Perhaps TISK/Fr are waiting for an opportune time to make out a statement - but my request for them is to please come out with the state of affairs now.

Personally, I don't have anything more to do with this project since it has released. I also don't care what happens with the profit. But it really pains me to see Fr/TISK in trouble (come to think of it, AFAIK, their sole motive with this project is to help IR realize his dream). Like Kiru mentioned sometime back, I find it very difficult to listen to IR's works now. Even when I subconsciously start singing TiS, I stop singing once this awareness pops-in.

Your post was logically well rooted, but it doesn't help me... I guess I'll just wait to see what materializes. :cry:

[kavin]

Dear Kiru, I have watched with growing concern your emotional response to this issue. we have had interesting discussions in the past. If you are angry, it is best to take a break from this, calm down and re-evaluate issues. If you still feel that you have reasons to act on the injustice you percieve, then take effective steps to address them, if you think you have to take it upon yourself.

You said that you have stopped listening to IR's music since you heard about this. The music you experience is greater than the person who creates the music. IR himself has claimed that he is not greater than music.

please ignore this post if you think it doesn't make sense.

[kiru]

Kavin, thanks man..I have been angered so many times in these forums, but have never showed my anger or indulged in any flame wars. This time it is a different situation. I have DECIDED to express my anger. My anger is representative of the anger in the fan/TIS supporter base.
I have not taken it 'upon myself'. These sort of things are possble only if more than one person feels so. So that is why the Yahoo groups is a start.
I want people who feel something needs to be done on this account to join the group. I dont think it is going to get confrontational at the very outset. I am also waiting for Dr.Vijay to intervene on this. He has already talked to Father. Hopefully, he will get IR's attention as well and something will happen. Meanwhile, whoever is interested can join the group and see what we can do.

My feelings are not exactly different from Deepak's. I do love music, but I am not as big a lover of music like Nero...(I am probably exaggerating but you get the drift )

[cry_sandiego]

Kiru Dude,

Anger is not a good sign. It distorts the picture and makes it worse that what it really is.. I am sure you are my age and anger does not help when you get old :-) .. not good for the health as well.. Plus take it from me ( i have seen soooooooooooo many ups and downs in my life ).on this.. when we are angry - we are definitely on the wrong side ( sad but True )

Anyway, if am so surprised that you were expecting , IR ,TM would be so professional as an after the fact.. - if they were, then their modus operandi would have been completely different. And moroever, if you were so particular, why did you not research before you invested your timewhy did you not check their IRS tax exemption status, their gnA policies before donating your $$..
Why did you not check with their legal/auditing team about their spending plan and marketing research and revenue distribution plan before donating your $$. I may sound like very indifferent to your feelings and anger here.. but keep your anger aside, your sympathy for those involved ( TISK and others ) aside and think logically..you will see the answer.

You were a mad ( musically i mean ) fan ( like me and many of us here ) who was very interested in TiS seeing daylight and so you helped/donated/contributed whatever w/o asking any questions.. You got what you asked for and you are not getting what you did not ask for.

No point in getting angry my friend... TISK and others may be financially impacted/disturbed but it is not the end of the world.. Nothing goes without an effect ! If IR/TM/TIS-USA had done something wrong justice will see daylight sooner or later..

And when the parties involved are not crying aloud here what is the point in you getting so worked up on this.. ( i laughed when you said you do not have time but spent time writing here and creating yahoo groups ! ) - ( by the way, are you expecting the Yahoo groups to abide by all ethical rules and conduct for public forums/email groups.. if someine in the group does soemthing bad, are you going to start another yahoo group asking that person and threaten them that you are going to sue them..

By these actions, Now again you are in the same loop.. You are jumping in to support a group that you believe is affected without any conditions or researching the real facts .. and at the end you are going to say, I invested my time to help them but the did not acknwledge/share the benefits.. ( I know I am stretching my analogy a bit... but i hope you get the point )

Take it easy my friend... You are getting worried over issues in which you/we have any insight or involvement !


Cheers
MSK

[multinamatheyan]

[tscii:7442fe8748]MSK,

All the contributions to TiS, be it monetary or otherwise, was done in good faith and good will. All the volunteers gave of their time for the same reasons you have quoted. So now to come and ask 'where is the paththiram', 'what was the equity' is like a slap in the face.

I know that's how the world works. But that was not the spirit of this project.

Everyone who assumed that I too was reacting to the TamilCinema.com article:

Wrong. The article did not come as surprise to me. I had even stopped visiting this thread for a long time - I used to check this thread several times a day. I only happened to check it yesterday after a long time, and after thinking it over, decided to post today.

Kavin:

All your comments are good and reflect what I would have posted had I not known better. The sad thing is there will never be another such project. So hope you are enjoying Chidambaraththil Oru Appasamy - it's probably good. I haven't listened to it.

rajasaranam:

I made two different donations both through TiS-USA. And both these donations are listed on the link you gave. So I think it is a comprehensive list. May be others who gave through TiS-USA can check and see if their names are there as well.

All:

My only gripe is the way the distribution was botched up because someone happened to get greedy or control-freakish or both. If it had been done properly, everyone would have gotten their money back and more.

You only need to scroll back on this thread to see the complaints from distributors about lack of supplies etc. On top of that the foreign market was completely ignored.

May be I should adopt MSK's philosophy of 'I got my CD who cares what else happened' and go get a good night's sleep.

Apathy is probably a good thing. At least it should help one’s mental health.

mnt
[/tscii:7442fe8748]

[cry_sandiego]

Hello deepakkt,

I used to be like you ! When i find that someone is doing wrong, i hated everything that was involved with them.. Your experience of not being able to enjoy IR's music is very typical of how i was several years ago !..

But no way have learned to very logical and get emotionally attached only when required..

I see that problem with many from our region ( you know what i mean here ).. Extrapolating that if a person is good/talented in something then he is an epitome of everything good in life.. how can that be..

For ex, If MXR is a sucessful actor, then he should be a successful political leader ! if a person is very literate and makes good speeches, then he shoul;d be a very good leader ! what's this logic.

I am not saying anything about IR's character as i do not know and i just do not care ! I like his music. Period. I could care less if he is a crook in his life or a mahatma.. If he is good that is good for him.. if he is bad then so will be the effects to him.. ( There is a saying in tamil that has very deep meaning and good relevance here - Theethum Nandrum pirar thara Vaara !! )

So remove that image that a musical genius will be a genius in everything else..Even if you know for sure that he is not in your good " ethical/character" books.. just listen to his music for the music.

Are you going to not laugh at a Comedian's joke if in real life he is a depressed/cynical person.. have you read " Charlie Chaplin's biography ". !

Anyways, my 2 cents !

Cheers
MSK

[cry_sandiego]

< MSK,

All the contributions to TiS, be it monetary or otherwise, was done in good faith and good will. All the volunteers gave of their time for the same reasons you have quoted. So now to come and ask 'where is the paththiram', 'what was the equity' is like a slap in the face.>

If the expectations were the ones listed by me, then where is the "slap" .? you got the CD you loved to hear. Thiruvasagam is atleast a little more prevelant and talked about than it was a year ago. Same thing with Tamil too.

So where is the slap.? If you helped/contributed in good intention then you should not be expecting anything in return.. that's good intention .!or a voluntary contribution.... If you were so close to TM/IR that you would borrow huge loans to help them then it is your personal affair..between the three of you .. nothing to be discussed in public here as none of us know what the hell happened.

All I can say is it's a very noble deed and no good deed goes unrewarded.. I pray to god in good faith.. I cannot sue God when things go in a way that i perceive as wrong !


If it was a legal transaction, then again we need not discuss as Law will take its course ( albeit slow )

I am done guys.. I will come back when you guys are ready to talk about Music..


thanks
MSK

[njv]

I bought my Thiruvasagam CD in UK this week released by Ramiy Records which comes with buy one and get one free. The free CD is ThiruvaNamalai Ramanamaalai by IR.

Ramiy Records is 100% pirated stuff. They DO NOT have any legal copyright for any CDs. Period.

[vijayr]

Kavin, your comparison with Manickavaasagar is so laughable I am not even going to respond.

"The true reversal of position, is if TM release TIS with their name as composers and not IR. In which case even you would cry foul!!!
"

So, if you read a report that said TM sells the rights without IR's knowledge and IR is surprised and in deep debt, you will just ignore and move on happily, right? vera yevanaavadhu kaadhula poo suththi iruppaan, avan kitta poyi sollunga.

[TISK]

Dear all,
Pl. excuse me for my silence for the last few days. I was trying to get a message from fr.J and finally was able to!
It has since been uploaded in our site http://www.tis-usa.com/blog/index.html.

I thank all of you for youe positive and constructive feed backs and request you sincerely to leave this at this time to take its own course and help us in any way to get the remaining 2,500 CD's with us in USA to move to close this great chapter with satisfaction to everyone concerned.

Corporates with Indian CEO's or influential people may be approached to make this as a 'group-buy' for their employees during the coming holiday season. If anyone knows a 'good link' to citibank, pl. send me a mail. This can be a valuable promotional tool for them. Any other ideas also, pl. feel free to share it here.

I will be posting a detailed accont info. on our site shortly.
And, again, a big Thanks to all of you!

YIA!!

[TISK]

Excuse me for the typo's!
'youe'--'your'
'acconts'-- 'accounts'

YIA!!

[vijayr]

TISK, thanks for the letter. The pain in his voice is evident throughout the mail. I can only hope and help in whatever little way I can to make the situation better.

[njv]

There is nothing to talk anymore. It is very clear that IR CHEATED TM. Either he master planned it or he did it based on the other sorrounding factor. Eitherway IR cheated TM, TIS-USA.

I am ashamed of myself being an IR fan.

[sats]

Now i know who the real "Polla Vinaiyen" is . Wont be able to listen to to TIS again in my life. :x

[rajasaranam]

TISK,

The link you gave doesnt open up directly. Hence Iam reposting Fr.'s Message here.


[tscii:0631f13d04]
Dear Friends,

This mail pertains to a news item that appeared in some web based magazine and sites with regard to Thiruvasagam and UK distribution rights, and the resultant confusion among the fans.

At the outset I wish to underline some important things. Ilaiyaraaja Yahoo Groups for me has been a great and enriching experience of life. In many a respect. I can never forget the passionate and proactive support it gave for the TIS project. What brings this group together and gives relevance to it are the common affection and appreciation you all have for the great musical genius of Maestro Ilaiyaraaja and his stupendous contributions to music. This aspect has to be kept in mind in all our discussions and discerning. Without an inch of hesitation I can state that like you I am proud to live at a time when the Maestro lived and his musical genius is undoubtedly unparalleled. However his musical genius does not make him God and we should ensure to give him the freedom and space to be a human being with the inherent human frailties and failures. Seen from this perspective, I am sure our judgments will be better and charitable even if there are problems with regard to individuals and projects, in our case – Thiruvasagam in Symphony. Even such judgments will be contested from protagonist and antagonist points of view. That is fine. But such a clarity will again ensure that none of these would diminish the musical respect we have for this great genius.

Now about this news on Thiruvasagam and UK rights, I really do not know. I heard people in the film industry talking about it. However I must also admit that no overseas distribution arrangement has been agreed so far (except Malaysia and Singapore) between Tamil Maiyam and Maestro. Reasons, I don’t intend to discuss in public. (Tamil Maiyam and Ilaiyaraaja Trust are holding joint copy rights, that too only for Tamil. Tamil Maiyam doesn’t have rights for tracks or interpolation in to other languages). The agreement was signed under duress as IR had total control and possession of the tracks. The release of the album became our foremost concern and we had to agree to sign a contract prepared by his auditor. The original contract which we had signed at the start of the project had to be given up under such a situation. The only oral agreement we had on overseas distribution was to send 8000 CDs to TIS-USA under Dr.Sankar Kumar to settle the loans they had incurred to complete this magnum opus. It is indeed hurting and a crying shame for me personally and for Tamil Maiyam that these decent people in the USA were first asked by us to help, borrow and then dumped with CDs to sell and save themselves.

Right now what I can tell you is, for a project in which we worked for three years, invested almost 1.5 crores – much of it through loans, and moved heaven and hell to make it a success, - what we have received from the distribution company – Welgate so far is only Rs. 5 lakhs. But for the sponsors we would be in a gravely serious crisis. So friends if you really care help us to sell some more CDs. Again Welgate was not our choice. Our choices were either Sony or Sarigama. Both were willing to release the album and the basics of the agreement had all been negotiated when IR insisted on Welgate.

Personally I may feel betrayed, insulted or humiliated and continue to have sleepless nights about the huge remaining debts. That’s OK. After all Thiruvasagam is a great project. We all made it a success. It has touched the souls of so many. Generations will relish this masterpiece.

Above all, I believe we are all mature human beings and we should respect ourselves by transcending. I have transcended. Truth always has the capacity to speak for itself, in time and for ever.

My only pain is that people like Dr. Sankar Kumar and the TIS-USA team who really put their time and credibility in the project went unrecognized.

My prayers are: Our burden of debts should be minimized quickly. You should all remain positive to the core objectives of Ilaiyaraaja Yahoo Groups – his music, and music alone.

Thank you. God bless us all.

Cordially,
Rev. Jegath Gaspar Raj.
[/tscii:0631f13d04]

IR kutramatravar ena vaathittavargal engae selveergal?

Vin thaandi uyarnthu nirkkum Thiruthanthai Jegath avargalukku,
Nandrigal koadi.
Sarithiram Raajavai mattumae ninaivil vaikkalaam. Aanal oru sarithira naayaganayum manikkum parantha idhayam konda ungalai naangal potruvom.
Netrikan thirapinum kutram kutramae ena... seeri ezhuvathu mattum tamizhar panpaadu alla
Inna seithaarai oruthal avar naana nannayam seithu vidal enbathum tamizhar panpaadae enbathai ninaivu paduthiyamaikku nandri.
Intha manithanukka naam rasigargal ena Kutra unarvil nenjam thavithaalum...avar Isaiyum kaalamum nam kayangalai aatra vallathu ena nambuvom.
ungal vaarathaigal ninaivil ullana ' Thiruvaasagam Porulathaara reethiyil vetri petraal Ithae pol aaru maathathukku oru murai Oru Isai virunthu padaikka mudiyum' ....
Namathu Izhappin valigalin udae Puthiya vazhigalai kandadaivom. Ungal muyarchigal vaetru thisaigalil payanapadavum vetri peravum vazhthukkal.

Kaneer peruginaalum innum rajasaranam than.

[sats]

Can anything be done abou this. This needs to come in magazines and newspapers , how can this be made public.

[rajasaranam]

Can anything be done abou this. This needs to come in magazines and newspapers , how can this be made public.

There is no need for that. The man and organisation who were stabbed at the back themselves have shown their magnanimity towards this issue. His letter was intended to make us show the same kind of attitude - 'transcending ourselves'. The first time I heard TIS was like a spiritual experience for me as I said earlier in this forum. And now just one Letter from father has given me a spriritual awakening.

And If you are from the other camp you are invited to enjoy the feast of our side's miserable state :twisted:

[TISK]

If the link doesn't work, pl. go to the main site www.tis-usa.com and then, click on the 'blog' to see the mail.

I have a request. Please see to it that TiS doesn't suffer by this development. It is a great piece and it is our endeavor that the CD doesn't go out of your minds.

Thanks.

YIA!!

[kavin]

vijayr, one of the purpose was for it to be laughable and lighten the mood. and your reverse logic doesn't make sense.

TISK wants 2500 more CDs to sell, please all those who are pained and feel the sympathy please ensure the sales of those CDs. If the intention is to sell the CDs, then one can attempt to do so by not smearing someone's character. It is pretty shameful. Since the very beginning, there has been this persistent plea for donations and funds. Wonder when this will stop, lets see if we will see the end when these CDs are sold.

Fr Jegath's letter doesn't give any authentic facts in terms of how much donation was recieved from people, how much was recieved in terms of sponsorship deals. neither does it give any facts on what was the initial agreement and what changed later. He still moans about personal loans and sleepless nights without giving any details about it either. The cost of production seems to increase every couple of months, now it is 1.5 crores.

The letter instead is couched in a language of ambiguity, to feed more speculations and allowing people to take sides. It is sad to see that TM and TIS-USA didn't get more than what they expected from this venture. Instead have been left to continue to work towards breaking even monetarily.

It appears in the end, TM's and TIS-USA's role was only to generate funds for the production and didn't really have any thing to do with post production rights. I wonder if in their initial agreement they were told to take personal loans, anyway, they did and that seems to be a misjudgement on their part. Well even this loans bit, it is only as true as they say, no further evidence to prove these claims.

TIS-USA were given 8000 CDs to sell and make up their investment which is very business like in approach. They may have also been given a specific time frame to complete the sales (giving them a head start). Assuming that they are able to sell them at the average rate of 10 dollars each, they will make $80000. this is approximately rupees 3000000. There are about 350 people on the donor list and at the average rate of $100 each, it makes $35000 +/- 5000 which is Rs 1400000.

Speculations and more speculations. A very effective ploy in keeping interest of people alive. Wonder how many in this forum heard Fr Gaspar's speech in FETNA. you can access it in the link above tis-usa blog. i am keen to hear your comments.

[vijayr]

"vijayr, one of the purpose was for it to be laughable and lighten the mood. "

well, actually all of your posts are like that whether you intend it to be that way or not, especially the one where you have asked TM to pay royalty to IR. That one takes the cake.

[kavin]

There is no doubt that TM and TIS-USA are unhappy with the deal they have got. But that doesn't automatically mean that IR is responsible or that he is a cheater. this is also known as spurious association. Did TM and TIS-USA misunderstand their role in this production? Unlike film music where IR's service in music is bought with money, TIS is IR's project and TM only came forward to help produce it and promised to generate funds. they don't own the music like the producers of film music do. Somewhere they failed to do their homework and seem to be disappointed with the outcome.

[rajasaranam]

"vijayr, one of the purpose was for it to be laughable and lighten the mood. "

well, actually all of your posts are like that whether you intend it to be that way or not, especially the one where you have asked TM to pay royalty to IR. That one takes the cake.
:thumbsup: :rotfl:

a fitting reply to Kavin's Blind faith on IR.

Kavin,

If you have not understood even an iota of Fr.Jegath's Letter keep speculating and Believing IR is clean and keep amusing us with such posts of yours :)

[kavin]

viyajr, the royalty TM have to pay is gratitude. For being given an opportunity to take part in this venture. roll on the floor laughing!

[kavin]

rajasaranam, i am not the one swinging from blind hero worship to the other extreme.

I don't have any blind faith in IR. I don't care what he is. I am purely working on available facts. All i am saying is that adequate facts have not been presented to justify your extreme views on this matter.

I have been only presented one side of the story so far. In any story there are three truths. the subjective view of truths as presented by either party and the truth.

unlike you, i have suspended my judgement till i hear all the facts. If by not agreeing with your views, it means that I have blind faith in IR, so be it. I'll be patient and wait to find out what actually happened.

[rajasaranam]

Gapla oru post vutaacha :)


...... TIS is IR's project and TM only came forward to help produce it and promised to generate funds. they don't own the music like the producers of film music do. Somewhere they failed to do their homework and seem to be disappointed with the outcome.

:lol: .....Tha Ivanga ellam loosu paaru athan kadan vaangi, sothellam viththu IR'oda Projecta panni kuduthutu moodikinu Poidunumaam.... Serthan parvalla nangalae enga somaiya thaainkiron onniya onnum kora sollala raasannu sonna kooda., nee pirstaae corritaa paesikinnu thutta kuduko veyndiyathuthaanaenu ventha punnla vela paichinikiriye unaku inna mansachee keetha...illiya?

[kavin]

rajasaranam,

appa maganidam, nee enna seyviyo theryiadhu, eppadiyavadhu examla pass panniyethan theeranumnu sonna. magan, examla bit adichu maatikitu, appa examla debar pannitangappannu sonna. appa maganidam 'naan enna unna bit adikava sonnen'

adhu madhiri, naan enna unna loan vangava sonnen.

[rajasaranam]

Kavin,

Jokes apart....Lets get down to the letter of Fr.Jegath. He has clearly stated that The agreement was prepared by IR's Auditor and TM had to sign it under coercion. As Their foremost purpose was to release the album because they never wanted all their efforts over 3 years to go as waste. Given the attitude of IR we all have sufficient reason to beleive that If at all TM had stood against the terms in the agreement, IR would have walked of clearly saying 'Appa album release panna vaendam'. Ithu madhiri ethanayo Gems innum kuppaiyil kidakuthu 'Moods of Raja' , 'Symphony no.1' madhiri. Intha Album kaetu innaikku neenga sandhosha padreengana athukku muzhu kaaranamum TM thandratha purinjikonga.

Your backing up of IR is perfectly understandable as there are no definitive statements from TM about IR's Cheating. But their can't be a question about TM/TISK 's integrity and genuinity in the whole episode. Still if you want to beleive It was TM's mistake and IR is clean its your choice. Poonai kannai moodi kolvathaal ulagam Irunduraathu.

[sats]

And If you are from the other camp you are invited to enjoy the feast of our side's miserable state :twisted:

Intha other camp matter ellam anavasiyam , i dont have to post as some "rajaadimai" etc etc to show you that i am from this camp .

[rajasaranam]

Kavin,

Gapula poonthu velaydreenga :)

Sari unga kathaikae varuvom... Assume TM never raised loans or donations and They invested 1.4 crores over this project all from their own funds. And wellgate had given them back 5 lakhs from sales. Thiruvaasagam ALbum madhiri oru periya flop albuma IR'ai nambi, avar kanavai nanavakka produce pannathukku avanga nashtatha pathi kavalapadalannu sollitaanga. Konjam IR than avar serthu vachu irukira sothula irunthu oru 50 latchatha kuduthu nashtathula pangeduthukrathu. Antha madhiri neraya panam IR kitta illaenu sollatheenga. Samibathil JayaTV kaaga panna programmekku avar vaangina sambalam 1 koadi roobai. Mookambigai kovilukku avar kudutha nagai 27 latcham roobai. Adutha vaenduthalaana ammanukku vaira nagai onnu kudukka poraar - rate 70 latcham roobai. Paavam TM konjamae konjam kuduthu udavalamae...

[kavin]

rajasaranam, that is a better tone and am happy to dissect every statements so far and lets find out what we can conclude.

I did hear that TM feared that IR may withold the release of TIS like Symphony 1 and hence yielded to his wishes. This I heard from sources close to Fr Gaspar. This was an information that has been circulated in private circles since the release of TIS which has only come to public domain now.

You chose to believe every word of Fr Gaspar, buy I am willing to doubt his words and want clear evidence. The fact that IR's auditor presented a contract and Fr Gaspar had no negotiating power considering what was at stake needs to be authenticated.

[rajasaranam]

And If you are from the other camp you are invited to enjoy the feast of our side's miserable state :twisted:

Intha other camp matter ellam anavasiyam , i dont have to post as some "rajaadimai" etc etc to show you that i am from this camp .

Sorry if that has offended you but that was meant to be a Joke. Smiley irukae.

Well let me redirect that post to MADDY, Scale etc., :)

[rajasaranam]

Kavin,

Aala vidunga naan intha vilatukkae varala. TN'la mani kaalai 2.15. lighta kattaiya saikiraen. Gapla vanthudatheenga.

[kavin]

If TM had funded from their own funds, without recourse to public funds over a period of time, I guess TM would have had better advantage in the negotiation.

It would have been clearly a case of TM commissioning IR to compose the music and they would have held total rights as producers.

Because the funds were generated through donations prospectively, TM did not have sole production rights. TIS went into public domain, where IR held the copyright as a creator and TM became a financier and not a producer. They did try to claim to be producers in stray media reports prior to the release.

[kavin]

Oh, gapla oru post. Sleep well Rajasaranam.

[app_engine]

There are apparently two sufferers.

1.TIS-USA
& 2. TM
(It looks pretty obvious that wellgate has gained at TM's expense, going by the 5 lac figure which is peanuts. And it's a strong probability that they keep IR in good humor -either by giving him film chances or money or both).

However, the suffering of TIS-USA cannot be compared with that of TM. TIS-USA is an affected party, without any say on the business of the end-product. Anyone who loaned to a venture (please read 'loan' and not 'equity') should at least be compensated by product if not money...i.e. the `japthi' style.

Here, they are asked to sell by getting for a dealer-price and then recover through the delta from end-user-price, effectively making them `sales agents'...(Even though some inexperience, lack of shrewdness, lack of discernment has landed them in this condition, it is a fact that they are the sufferers out of a collaboration with TM / IR). This is totally wrong - both legally, ethically.

It's both TM & IR (or his org) to blame for this condition of TIS-USA. That Mr Gaspar of TM states he is pained helps one to understand his feelings, but it definitely does not remedy the situation. IMO, if he has given assurance to TIS-USA of a repayment, he owes it...if needed, it should be him/TM who has to take it up with IR/whoever it takes to sort out...rather than asking the public to buy CD's to help...(It's like asking `my friend has taken away my money, I'm in trouble, oor makkaL please help me by buying from my shop, whether you need the product or not')...

As for as TM's suffering is concerned, it's all in the business. They probably are not shrewd enough to handle business matters. All this talk of `let us forgive' is just covering up what they actually lacked in running a project. TO put things simple, the project has to be either their venture with IR as an artiste -an ambitious one at that. Or it is IR's venture and TM is handling the finance. appadi reNdum illAmal kuzhambi, kuzhappi, thaLLAdi irukkiRarkaL. adhilum mid way change of agreement vERu. Having agreed to that change, now they need to go and talk to IR & fight with him instead of telling the public about them forgiving IR. That's not correct.

He says 'I have transcended'...endha vidhaththil? By dumping CD's to TIS-USA to sell? Allowing someone to happily fraud, not one individual, but an org? Is TM not an org, or is it an individual? How can he let someone go if the crime is against a public charity org? How can one `transcend' by letting that happen? This is definitely not anything against individual...to transcend above...(Or does he feel that in any case public contribution dhAnE, let some filmi guys eat it...as long as I can show myself as a puNyavAn by "forgiving in public" and not having the backbone to fight with the filmi guys in all possible legal channels?)

[cry_sandiego]

I could not help but smile at reading that post by TM folks.. Seems like a childish attempt - i do not know the intention - I am surprised to read that TM was ready to deal with SONY. Sony's laywers would be far more slick than IR's .. that's for sure.. Anyway I am not familiar with the details so i do not know ! so i don't want to get into that issue!

OK. Totally different Subject !! Recvd "The launch of TIS DVD" from TIS-USA - apparently it is region coded so it would not play in my Sony DVD player.. was able to watch on the PC. Is this OK or somehow my shipment got mixed up with an India Shipment ? No big deal - just curious.

Vaiko's and Rajinkantha's speech were interesting ! Especially Vaiko's where he talks about the various subsections of Thiruvasagam and the selections chosen by IR for TiS. Do not miss it. I did not know that Hindu RAM was a Western classical Music buff as mentioned by IR in his speech.

Cheers
MSK

[kavin]

Sony and Saregama are just thrown in to impress upon those gullible, what TM could have done and how silly IR couldn't see it. Sony wouldn't have touched TIS if they couldn't make a big profit out of it like they do normally. Neither is IR going to sit back and let Sony make a huge profit assuming that TIS has that potential (I don't think TIS is that great anyway compared to what is available in world music arena, IR fans can fool themselves into thinking otherwise) . IR might prefer to take a risk taking control over distribution himself and fail than let someone else walk all over him. TM have no experience in music production which is very evident. Are they trying to cover up their inept by coming out as victims?

[vijayr]

"viyajr, the royalty TM have to pay is gratitude. For being given an opportunity to take part in this venture. roll on the floor laughing!"

Yes I am ROTFLing right now. And what royalty does IR have to pay TM for helping him get his TIS released, because otherwise no one was ready to touch it with a 6-feet pole and it would have still been lying in the cans gathering dust just like his symphony 1 , Moods of IR and god knows how many more other albums that have not seen the light of day.

[kavin]

well viyajr, from what Fr Gaspar's letter states, it appears, that TM was more keen to bend backwards to get TIS released than IR was. Looks like IR was quite happy to not release it, but TM panicked instead of playing the waiting game. So isn't it obvious that TM had more to gain from its release. If not for TIS at this point in time, what else do they have to show. Don't make it like they were in a position of granting benevelence to IR and thus do his fans a favour. Laugh on the floor to this too!!!

[kavin]

viyajr, why do you assume that IR is desperate to release his work (knowing him he probably thinks he is doing you a favour by releasing them). he has proved that he can withold a product indefinitely if he wants to. a true creator will be happy with his creation irrespective of whether it reaches people. we may not hear many of his creations in his lifetime or our lifetime, but if it is significant it will present itself someday. some of the great composers' music never saw the light many years but eventually did.

TM was only a tool in the hands of a sculptor, you can laugh somemore on the floor, will definitely ensure you don't get up from that floor!! make sure you are comfortable though!

[kavin]

I am even beginning to suspect if the letter that is supposed to have come from Fr Gaspar to Yahoo Groups is a hoax. There is nothing there to convince me that it is from him. i am quite happy to be proved wrong for a start.

[vijayr]

"Looks like IR was quite happy to not release it, "

Yeah right, thats why he called it his life's ambition, the fulfillment of his spiritual quest, the substitute for his unreleased symphony#1 and so on.

"Don't make it like they were in a position of granting benevelence to IR "

I didnt say that, you were the one who was making it look like IR was benevolent towards TM and they in turn owe something to him.. STILL. I never said that IR needed to pay royalty to TM for helping him get his life's ambition realized.

"viyajr, why do you assume that IR is desperate to release his work "

he mentioned it clearly as his lifetime ambition and even told his fans over at yahoo club that this was to be better than symphony+1,a worthy substitute when someone asked him about symphony 1. He even talked publicly at several places about it. And with constant questions about his non-release of symphony1 you would think he would be atleast a little desperate to release it this time, especially after projecting it as his ambition and going around giving speeches for mobilizing funds.

"he has proved that he can withold a product indefinitely if he wants to. "

he has only proved his ineptness in trying to find someone to release his work. And how do you know he is really happy that his work is still unreleased?


"TM was only a tool in the hands of a sculptor"

and without which, the sculptor couldnt have made his product.

"I am even beginning to suspect if the letter that is supposed to have come from Fr Gaspar to Yahoo Groups is a hoax. '

and I am beginning to suspect that you are probably IR in disguise. I havent seen any evidence to the contrary yet.

[kavin]

viyajr, i'll humor you more.

Life's ambition ends with its creation, and doesn't necessarily mean that it should be released. And I don't believe in such statements either nor am i impressed with statements like ' no more rebirths' - as though he can prove this.

he didn't go around giving speeches asking for funds. from what i recall there is one supposed speech in US when he spoke about wanting to compose thiruvasagam. Was is it under duress? was is a gimmick by tis-usa and TM to convince people to donate? i give my permission for you to roll onthe floor again!!

well, the sculptor buys the tool to sculpt. but the tool cannot claim that the statue belongs to the tool. once you buy the tool, then thats where its value ends. if not this tool, then buy another. the sculptor is still supreme. want to roll on the floor again??!!

[kavin]

am i IR in disguise? thanks for the compliment. but will defer the opportunity to rotfl this round. one more chance for you to humour me?

[baroque]

"I am even beginning to suspect if the letter that is supposed to have come from Fr Gaspar to Yahoo Groups is a hoax. '
vijayr says,
'and I am beginning to suspect that you are probably IR in disguise. I havent seen any evidence to the contrary yet.'

Vijayr, that was a good one!! manasu kashtathileyum, your post made me laugh!! thanks, You are always very impressive!! :D

[kiru]

rajasaranam..you call a spade a spade. It really boggles my mind, how IR, had the tracks, while TM was paying for everything. It looks, the kind Father, would dip into the pocket and hand the dough to IR to give it to the studio folks..hmm..sad sad ..sad.
Any of you guys want to join the yahoo groups, I started. Lets see what we can do about this.. even non-confrontationally..in a nice way. Merry Christmas Father :-(

[prabhudas]

Appada...11 days le ennennavo aayipoyirukku....

I have to make my own comments on this whole issue , my silence was not intentional time kidaikkale avvalo daan,
I sensed a different tone in TISK's post few months ago, I almost decided to post my comment about it in the thread, but finally sent him a PM, now it's time to post it

Sent :: Message
From: prabhudas
To: TISK
Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:29 pm
Subject: From Prabhudas
I originally wanted to post this in the thread,

TISK,
A request,please read my post carefully, and any words in this post is not to create any controversies. It looks like you are very very upset ( I may be wrong and I wish I am wrong about presuming that) about the fact that the recognition of TIS_USA contribution to this monumental project is very much underplayed and it is probably true and I agree.

A few thoughts/comments, with whatever brief interactions/conversations/emails I have had with you, I probably know very little of your enormous , selfless efforts at every stage of this project, which amazed me then, amazes me now and forever, for one reason during the last two years u have not thought anything but seeing this project see the limelight sacrificing ur precious time and personal committments just for this one thing and I have repeatedly mentioned this thread about that. Thops and probably many others around u know better about ur enthusiasm,efforts.
But I always think that you have and will have special place forever for the mere association with this project in the history which I am sure u will cherish forever.

I am sure u never ever thought of recognition before u first started involving with this historical project ( if I didn't put my words properly please excuse me), as not one single post of urs in this thread ever ended without YIA!!, many have asked the meaning for this also (I am not a spiritual person, may be one day I will lead that path with Maestro's music), your involvement above ur personal committments in this materialistic world for this project is beyond recognition and perhaps for a devine cause and a devine reason as u always say YIA. I am not writing this for consolation, it pained me a bit to see ur genuine concerns after all these efforts and when actually the project is finally in everybody's hands (A person who is seen so energetic,jubilant even in SS' chandramukhi thread often,)

I hope I haven't hurt ur or anyone else's feeling with my above post

Thanks once again
( listening to "Pollavinayaen' right now and waiting for IR's "Namashivaya Vaazhga" line before "Maasattra sodhi" to squeeze the life out of my body everytime, like unplugging a massive robust machine from a power source with just 1 button in the flick of a second..Oh my God..... we need more and more Maestro despite this)

_________________
Long Live Maestro and his immortal music
-
Buy Original CDs/Cassettes please


Here is the reply from him for the same,

From: TISK
To: prabhudas
Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 10:18 am
Subject: Re: From Prabhudas
Dear Dr.,
Thank you so much for your kind words. If by any means it sounded to be that I was personally upset of this lack of recognition, I want to set it right that it never was and is my intention. Otherwise, I would have involved myself in the contract and other things but my hurt was actually for the scores of selfless and faithful fans like you and so many others who readily came up to make this happen and when in one sweep, the whole thing has been swept aside, I was slightly hurt and that outburst was the result of that! But, I assure you that my respect and regard for this Great Man hasn't dwindled at all and I promise you that I will never do anything to hurt this project.
I will be more careful and be more restrained here after. After all, as you had rightly said, it is YIA! and who am I and where is my 'hurt'! Thank you so much for your kind words again!
YIA!!

I got associated with this project initially thro' Yahoo group Vijay before TIS-USA existed, infact, I sent my initial check addressed to MSK ( if I am not wrong, I think probably MSK volunteered as a Liason between Yahoo IR group and Donation from IR fans from USA, ) MSK, Meenakshi Sundaram Krishnaswamy , neenga illanna please forgive me. My better association with the project came when I missed IR's USA initial NJ fundraising visit, and in May 2005 thro TISK, I with NY Tamil Sangam were able to arrange NY fund raising event,

follows in next post

[baroque]

Kavin, Can you wait for IR yahoo group Dr.Vijay to post to the group this letter before continuing further? that's a wise thing to do!!

[kavin]

sure, will wait

[njv]

guys there is nothing to talk abt it any more. why waste your time on IR/TIS. just forget it. Let IR score music for kooduvancheriyil oru appansamy and the like. lets get back to our normal life and forget IR and TIS and if possible all IR's 30 years of music.

[vijayr]

"he didn't go around giving speeches asking for funds. from what i recall there is one supposed speech in US when he spoke about wanting to compose thiruvasagam. "

you are misinformed. There were atleast couple of speeches, audio clips were uploaded here. He also gave the reason as to why he wanted everyone to donate in response to a question from the audience - he said it was akin to building a temple.

"but the tool cannot claim that the statue belongs to the tool."

[vijayr]

"but the tool cannot claim that the statue belongs to the tool."

what crap is this? When did TM say that TIS was its product? all its asking for is a fair treatment. Your so-called analogies are way off the mark including this sculptor-tool thing.

[TISK]

Dear Mr. 'vijayr',
It is better to leave Mr.'kavin'to live in his imaginary world. Please don't disturb him nor rebutt his desertations. We are not here to convince anyone. As Fr.had said 'there will be protogonists and antogonists and each one is entitled to deduce the truth as they see it.

All along, people were asking for 3 people to speak up [Tisk, IIR and Fr.J]. 2 have spoken. I thank Fr. for respecting my request and responding as he saw it.

I have nothing more to say.

Let's move on.
After all, There is ONE watching all these.

YIA!

[prabhudas]

[tscii:4a542a0608]And I contributed more personally with time and money as well as thro' many of my nontamil speaking Kannada, telugu friends who contributed decently ( BTW, my name is still missing from the donor's list, I am happy my friends names from NY, NJ area is in the list,)
Thro' the same avenue, I had an opportunity to interact briefly with IR , apart from my self gratification of having seen and interacted with the genious whose music has always played a predominant role in my life , I could only confirm his egocentric attitude a few times ( knowingly or unknowingly, that's probably how he has always been I think) which I had only read till then, still he could immediately again talk in the most modest way ever , so as MSK said, he probably could be good or bad, but definitely little eccentric, as many have known about him thro' media.

Now personally despite his creativity, talent and contribution to TFM and being a hero for some , Idealistic person for some, and a special position in my own personal life, I have always thought people in film industry are corrupted in one way or other, some even unknowingly because of being either too naive or some one else around them running their show ( this could be the case in IR too)

Fr.Jegath, I have had few phone conversations and met personally once in Chennai, he seems to be ( he is actually one, atleast for me) very well learned man but certainly me and many others would agree that he really put a llot of his personal time, efforts and money ( I am not sure how much or in what all forms, unless he shares that info in a public domain, he doesn't have to, but to be a honest way in making everybody believe with true figures), on the same note, me and many would agree that his or TM's experience in bringing a musical project from the time of conception to reaching people, is probably zero, they do not have prior experience , ( For people asking, not everybody has prior experience in starting a project, yes that is true, and because of this lack of experience the success rate and other outcomes will be definitely different than those with experience), with this big deficiency, the whole project attempt which in itself is first of it's kind in many ways,
1. project thro' donations from public ( OK with me , but the organizers need to be accountable, and I disgaree with MSK about the analogy with Khatrina or Tsunami funds etc, if it is a genuine charity org. they are totally transparent to everybody whether one donates or not, atleast in US and few other countries, and there are websites to check how the money collected exactly was spent by these organizations and they are monitored by IRS and Feds)
Genuine , I meant Red Cross and many such big ones, but ofcourse there are always scammers all around with any fund raising who play around, fooling with fake identities and giving feds and IRS also a run, most recently there was a practical joke with Khatrina Disaster how more scam artistes appeared on the web collecting funds even faster than feds coming for rescue operations), now if TM wanted to be clean and transparent if not as big as Red Cross, especially with more projects in pipeline, their website should have made every honest attempt to give a better picture from the get go till the project completion, everybody knows what a disaster the updating of the original TIS site was from the beginning, totally unprofessional and lack of experience speaking allover.

2. project funding thro' personal loans ( there might have been similar projects , but the endpoint , outcome, source and objective should be clear to the people doing themselves and to public, since a big share came from public also, in our case neither of them knew all these), again lack of honest and proper sharing of financial transactions is a big big minus. Public wouldn't have worried about personal loans but for just ridiculing depending on their own perception if no public donations were involved.

3. Project ambitions/endpoint totally either misconceived or reported misleadingly thro' media, fund rising events, user groups, forums ( numerous examples, money from project would be spent for futur TM projects, to be spent for IR's International college of Music, to be donated for Tsunami relief ( give me the biggest break here, why make statements when even someone had to make a contract agreement although at a later date under "DURESS", now who should believe this statement about contributing to Tsunami fund or making an agreement under " DURESS", BTW the definition of "DURESS" has too many meanings, one of them being "Constraint by threat" I don't know if KR on one side had a Gun and YSR had a Veecharuvaa on the other hand :roll:


So, TM or Fr.Jegath were too naive ( don't appear by his interactions in the past but appears so thro' his statement now ), in dealing with the agreements or financial transactions or copyrights thinking IR as a Saint or had some personal vested interests ( vested interests I mean both good and bad)
Some queries/comments for fr. Jegath's statement,

1."Reasons, I don’t intend to discuss in public" it's fine but it's like making a statement to tell people I don't wAnt to make a statemnet in public.
Due to lack of legal documentations at several stages probably he is in a position " mellavum mudiyame muzhungavum mudiyama", 2."Tamil Maiyam and Ilaiyaraaja Trust are holding joint copy rights, that too only for Tamil." if there was legal copyrights what prevented them in marketing the project in Tamil populated foreign countries Like many parts of Europe, Australia etc, again poor coordination, decisions made this only a dream, despite many volunteers from forum offering expertise in proper marketing ideas, it's too late now that many have illegal copyrights on the MP3 versions.

3."Tamil Maiyam doesn’t have rights for tracks or interpolation in to other languages".
why and how? If this was the original agreement and TM agreed then, there is no legal or personal accusations whatsoever that can be made on IR.
I remember TISK telling, how they had to cross several hurdles at several stages during the actual Hungary recording and final Sony studios master copying and mixing here in NY
The hungary symphony orchestra space rent and recording facility would'nt allow the thing to happen if the payment didn't happen in a matter of few hours at the last minute, and how a Texas based business man donated a huge amount and the money had to be wire transferred overnight etc...etc... and as many don't know then and now, IR was totally oblivious of the fact that there was a big possibilty of the entire session to have been cancelled due to lack of funds why... why? It wasn't a birthday party surprise cake to IR , what made TM OR TIS-USA to keep these things informed , (if IR also was going to be partner of copyrights) about the financial difficulties, I strongly doubt if TM was clear enough with IR himself with the financial constraints , difficulties and hurdles, for who knows, IR still may be thinking adaan ellam public money yai thane selavu pannanga, Welgate panam samadhichi TM kku kudutha enna kudukkalenne enna?
4."The agreement was signed under duress as IR had total control and possession of the tracks."
Phleaa...se, how come IR had total control, if every penny at Sony studio, Hungary , Bombay were being paid by TM presumably.

Anyway, instead of using words like " transcending" etc., If TM believes strongly with proper documentations legally they still can Tarnish IR's image for good reasons, if there is only any legal evidence that IR directly was the cause for the monetary losses , which I doubt given the scenario that TM as agreed for these eventualities not forseeing them.

Kiru, I can visit ur yahoo group, but what good the user group in itself would do, if nothing is transparent except for making statements with heavy language.

MSK and Kavin can't agree more with many of your posts.

Rajasaranam,
If u strongly believe with complete and clear picture of the entire financial , copyright agreements, first and foremost u probably can do is call a press meet thro' TM or yahoo user group and bring the whole issue to the public again If there is any grounds at all,
athaivida innum venumna, irukkave irukku "sunTv" who can easily take a sweet revenge against IR's recent Jaya Tv association , TIS-USA has all the fundraising events video clippings with all those nice , humble, innocent talks of IR ( I believed him then , I still believe, because I don't have anything transparent not to believe )

lastly personal question, ungalukku Kadavuzh, nambikkai illada kaaranathaal, I see u fuming about IR's contribution to "Mookambikai's" donation, what irks u in this regard, would u have been happy if same IR had contributed same 27 lakhs towards " AIDS prevention or some such cause.
In late 80's , after Armenia Earthquake, IR thro's minimally publicised concerts in TN contributed close to 1 crore and this was in many many news media.
If there is a foul play in the entire event from IR's side, it is yet to be proven, about all those who are breathing heavy, not able to dust, or listen to IR's music after this entire unestablished discussions, I think some Dfers have already answered it including rajsaranam, BTW, I didn't know Avvaiyyar drank Kallu... super pa(r)tti ya irundurukkum poleye, it's the music u beleive in not the creator.



Prabhudas[/tscii:4a542a0608]

[vijayr]

"MSK and Kavin can't agree more with many of your posts. "

so you actually agree with Kavin that TM has to pay royalty to IR? Because thats what he said.

"I have always thought people in film industry are corrupted in one way or other, some even unknowingly because of being either too naive or some one else around them running their show"

classic chappakattu. How can a person get "unknowingly" corrupt or can be so "naive" to get corrupted? How can IR be naive and business-like, cutthroat-like at the same time?
In this case no one surrounding IR was running the show. He was directly involved.

I guess Tamilmayyam should have secretly sold all the rights not trusting IR right from the beginning. Because thats what some of you guys are accusing them of - of being sincere. here "naive" is used to replace "sincere". I guess if TM had pre-empted IR into getting all the rights and left IR in deep debt it would have been interesting to see your reactions. Will you accuse IR of being "naive" then and ignore everything? will you say Fr.Gasper was "unknowingly corrupted" and that it was IR's fault that he wasnt business-like or opportunistic?

[kavin]

viyajr, thanks for enlisting support for my views. but no thanks. some people in this forum will be able to discern what is truth and what is non-sensical in my posts. while some of the posts of mine were meant to humor you, some extremist statements were also meant to pull the pendulum towards the centre, when the opinions tended to be one sided.

prabhudas and MSK's posts make better sense to me. TISK as usual hides behind someone elses posts, advising people not to respond to me with stock statement YIA. He still has not come out with explanations to specific questions which only he can answer. If he is campaigning in a public forum, then he should be aware that questions will be asked from skeptics. if his intention is to give out partial truths and get few people to part with their money, then he should be aware that there will be some who will question his intentions so that some of those who are willing to give him the money are in a better position to decide for themselves.

[kavin]

rather than seeing it as two individuals IR and Fr Gaspar, lets discuss this from the perspective of two organisations. Tamil Mayam and IR traditional music art and cultural trust (the Trust).

Shall we say that these two organisations with different agenda came together to make Thiruvasagam? TM had tamil culture and tamil social agenda while the Trust with heavy leanings in music. Both are relatively unknown organisations IR provided the public image.

In a partnership between these two organisation what to they give each other. IR gives his creative ability and TM promised to generate funds and awareness for this project. What did either organisation expect out of this. I suppose expectation were unlimited because the idea had huge potential.

IR's Trust besides making money from TIS also will look for recognition as an organisation of substance and promise in traditional music. The Trust can in future approach other potential donors for funds based on the finished product of TIS.

TM firstly will be looking at spreading its wings with all the tamils abroad, since the project gives them credibility to approach people and show them what TM can achieve. Producing TIS is not the end, but what they can subsequently achieve is more important. Such as connecting rural tamilnadu with computer network, YMCA kind of organisation throughout the world and many more such ambitious projects. How they come out in helping TIS is important.

Well what was the outcome? TIS did not shake the world as expected. It was a mediocre though unique album. It did not live up to its hype. People recieved it with mixed reaction. It did not have the potential to make huge sums of money maybe in long term it may but that is not good enough for either organisation. The prerelease hype and marketing ensured that it didn't go into oblivion.

Since the production was not by any music labels, Sony and Saregama could only be approached for distribution. Since they did not produce it their commitment to TIS would have been limited. It would have been a case of release and sit on them. Again this was not good enough for either organisation. TM has no experience in music production and hence it is unlikely to understand this, while IR's Trust has many years of experience with music industry.

Since it did not make as much money as expected, the two organisations are trying to share the spoils and both are unhappy and putting blame on each other. Which happens in loss in business, each one trying grab whatever little they can.

TM as an organisation, will move on to their agenda, which is more social change than music. They will continue their relationship with tamils abroad for support for their future projects. IR's Trust will have to continue its mission in music and it has only TIS to work on till another comes along. Hence statements like, God willing more such projects.

TM is trying to retain its well wishers by coming out as victims in this association.

[kavin]

I see TIS-USA as a partner of TM rather than IR's Trust. TM is accountable to TIS-USA. TIS-USA will dissolve soon and the individuals concerned are likely to become TM's arm in USA which should be encouraged and supported to continue with their vision.

[prabhudas]

so you actually agree with Kavin that TM has to pay royalty to IR? Because thats what he said.

What answer do u need as u have framed a question out of ur own imagination and assumption,
Need to read posts carefully as opposed to obssessively keep replying , I said many of their posts again I said many of their posts, that doesn't mean I agreed with every post :wink:



classic chappakattu. How can a person get "unknowingly" corrupt etc....
chappakattum illae Maavu Kattum ille, go read Fr.'s statement , remember there was a auditor for IR, there are people like auditor, managers and what not who all can play a role.
When IR auditor had to say that, why not TM auditor ? TM agreed for some vague reasons, yes very vague reasons, u can't have a business in this way , no chance... dosen't it glare so obviously there are some more reasons why the whole agreement issue had to happen under "DURESS", and what are those reasons, not just releasing the album to get name but also to get the money
( personal loans) invested back also and probably many other.


[quote] I guess Tamilmayyam should have secretly sold all the rights not trusting IR right from the beginning."
U can guess 1000 things and feel free to infer yourself as it's ur guesses

[/quote "Because thats what some of you guys are accusing them of - of being sincere. here "naive" is used to replace "sincere". I guess if TM had pre-empted IR into getting all the rights and left IR in deep debt it would have .... [/quote

I am not accusing nobody ( Brooklyn style), I made my personal comment, if someone else is accusing, do a thesis and ask them more questions :D , I didn't find anybody accusing TM personally, all who have made comments have told that there is no appropriate legal documentation to begin with or at any stage or even at the time of marketing, it will not hold water
If IR was in that situation, adhe kadhai daan, "Govinda Govinda", Engeppa Raasa, un Auditor enge ponaru, paperle appadi sollaliye, appo avvalodaan....nnu kadhai close panniruppanga, and because of IR's nonmedia friendly attitude even media couldn't have done anything unless he used some political or celebrity connection
BTW, don't u believe that at some point of their career (mostly during the initial carreer) not just IR many many people in film business would have had situation where producer cheated or didn't pay money etc etc..., believe me it happened then, it happens now, it will happen forever till the legalities are properly taken care of ,
and in instances where there are political connections and public clout because of their popularity and influence, many of these are settled thro' mediators, say some big brother acting as a mediator or using power or some big celebity interfering etc...etc.

Lastly, if there was no personal loans involved in this entire project, does anybody think, TM would have bothered even a bit about losses, yeah.. right, project mundijichu, public fund le, Rajavukku peru kidaichuchu, TM kkum peru kidaichuchu, Welgate panam panna enna innoruthen panam panna enna nnu adutha projectle loss aagama panam eppadi panna mudiyum nnu yosichiruppanga ( panam not for themselves to TM organisation) , TM panna pannirunda, they might or might not have anounced too.

[vijayr]

"Need to read posts carefully as opposed to obssessively keep replying.I said many of their posts again I said many of their posts, that doesn't mean I agreed with every post"

and you need to think before obsessively making jalra comments for IR. Because Kavin was actually defending his royalty comment in "many" of his posts, not just one post.


"go read Fr.'s statement , remember there was a auditor for IR, there are people like auditor, managers and what not who all can play a role. "

yeah right, as if IR didnt know what his own auditor was doing. auditor is there to take care of the formalities/paperwork, thats all.the orders come from IR.


"If IR was in that situation, adhe kadhai daan, "Govinda Govinda", Engeppa Raasa, un Auditor enge ponaru, paperle appadi sollaliye, appo avvalodaan....nnu kadhai close panniruppanga"

yeah but you would have come here and bashed TM left and right and atleast expressed your sympathy for IR, being a fanatic yourself. Thats what some people here are doing now, but for TM. And some of them include hardcore IR fans.

[kiru]

Guys..most of you here are like my friends..some more closely as I have been in touch with you over email. We all have one thing in common. We love the music of IR. That said..I see the situation as below..

Everybody involved, mainly Father and TISK, were totally in awe of IR and completely trusted IR. Because of this reason, they paid the expenses without getting anything in writing before hand that this would be a production of TM-TIS-USA and that they hold all possible copyrights. This should have been done atleast the first time they paid IR some money (I think 5 lakhs ?). This kind of trust-based interaction is atleast fine (personally I think not) when you are dealing with personal money but totally objectionable when dealing with public money. From the beginning, many people were asking for transparency in accounting (as Prabhudas mentions) and for TISK and Father to ignore this, is probably, they were drunk with the joy/arrogance of associating with a person of the stature of IR.
This is a lesson to all of us (as many were trying to impress upon myself) that skill in an art is different from personal integrity and moral character.
It is not that the Father felt betrayed, it is I and fans like me as well. We believed IR is a spiritual person, loves tamil and music and wants to do something for the good education of the youth of our culture. But it all seems like an exercise to satisfy ones and possibly make profit leveraging other people's efforts and public money.
Please note, I still trust and respect the Father and TISK, inspite of the naivete (sorry sirs, I have to say this) but this cannot be said of IR, anymore. I am really sad when I write this.

Prabhudas, please join the group, as TISK hinted, we have to make IR, who is silent, talk on this, someway or other. The group could come up with ideas for this.

[kiru]

"TM panna pannirunda, they might or might not have anounced too"

Prabhudas,
This shows a lack of trust on the Father. Is there something else we need to know ? Are you saying that TM and TIS-USA are trying to find a scapegoat for their own inefficiency in breaking even on this project ?
Do you think the choice of Wellgate was innocous and that there was no 'kickback' involved in the deal ? I am thinking the insistence on Wellgate and themselves being producer of TTLS as an incriminating evidence in this 'Bofors of the film music world' scandal. I am waiting to be proven wrong.

[cry_sandiego]

Kiru,

I did not want to talk on this further, but i think i will do it one more time to bring back relevance to this thread. The last resort for me will be to obstain from this forum for some time until the thread's relevance returns.

Shows the lack of

#1.Complete information

and questions the

#2. Need for us to even speculate/discuss/get involved given in this affair which is clearly between the parties involved ( Tm/IR/whoever else is invloved )-especially given #1.

#3. I am assuming that you are not a part of TiS-USA other than being a donor like me. If you are an office bearer of TiS-USA/TM/IR Trust etc, you should be taking this thru the right channel ( legal/Patent office/Copyright channels/Better Busines Bureau etc..) and not cry foul in this public forum which is for discussing music and related subjects and not about the biz affairs of the artists and their associates/biz groups. I could care less about the troubles of TiS-USA/IR/TM and hundreds of other great organizations like these. They solicited for donations and as a believer i helped them with my donations and bought CD's. There ends my deal !.

PLEASE MOVE THIS DISCUSSION TO SOMEHWERE ELSE or start another thread /yahoo groups etc.. or whatever you like..

Kiru, sorry to say this , but you seem to be overreacting to this and if you so strongly believe take it up legally with TiS-USA/TM and leave all of us alone. I could care less about who cheated who !! The lawyers would love to talk to you ( and get your money ).

Prabhudas, I did not say the Charity orgs are not accountable. I said when I donate money to these organizations, i trust them and do not go cry foul that they misused money etc etc.. If i come to know about such things then i will not donate to them next time. End of matter.. I will not start a Yahoo groups ( Sorry Kiru) to go fight against that Charity. I will blame myself for not checking everything about that org before donating my mnoney and thank God for that lesson and move on in Life. Hope this clarifies.


Cheers
MSK

[kavin]

dear kiru,

I'll support you in your efforts in the legal action. Get some evidence for 1) IR has personally made money using public funds and the profits, if any, is not going to his Trust. 2) IR is getting kickbacks from TTLS because of the TIS deal.

Also draw up all possible charges that can be used against IR and start collecting evidence.

[cry_sandiego]

Hi Prabhudas,

One more thing !! One thing I have learned to in this forum ( i am regular her the last 9+ years since inception ) is it is wise not to respond/comment to hubbers whose views(posts) you do not understand or fail to comprehend their views no matter how hard we try. Vijayr's is on my list. ( No offense meant Vijayr, but I have failed to understand your views no matter what the subject is ..however hard i tried ..you are beyond (my ) comprehension. The only thing i have noticed,is that you like to argue and for the sake of arguing .and never get tired of it...or you have a hidden motive again, I could be wrong on that too.. anyway no offense meant and I am sorry if i sounded offensive! ).

Please let us move on guys.. I am getting tired.

Cheers
MSK

[vijayr]

"and not cry foul in this public forum which is for discussing music and related subjects and not about the biz affairs of the artists and their associates/biz groups"

funny, how when the same forum was used to collect money and discuss logistics before TIS release, no request was made to move the discussion elsewhere as it wasnt music-related.
Now when the purpose has been accomplished and the artist's integrity in question, all efforts are being made to hush thematter up, move the discussion elsewhere, close the thread etc.

" I could care less about who cheated who !! '

except when the person cheated happens to be IR.

"Please let us move on guys.. I am getting tired. "

move on, if you want to. no one invited you here in the first place.

[kr]

Guys:

vijayr's onsessive hatred of IR is very evident if you have been following his posts over the past years. He probably has some personal reasons for such vitriol that I have read from him over the years even before all this. It cannot be explained by normal human rationale for the hatred seen in his posts over the years on someone who has contributed so much. He will take any situation and find something negative to accuse IR of. TISK's posting is just fodder for him .

Any rational person would try to ascertain the facts before this shameful display happenin in this forum. You have heard just from the accusing parties but have passed judgement on IR before ascertaining the facts. It is such a pity.

I have given $1000 so far and purchased 15 CDs/VCD but I donated for IR. I did not know TM or TISK. It is because of IR, I volunteered the donation for IR not for TM or TISK. Therefore I am not really upset that TM did not get the copyrights. I gave the money so TIS will be made and I am very happy it was made and with the output. I feel that TISK should not have personal losses and I am willing to help to reduce his losses. But when fans like me donated, it is for IR.

[kr]

The second word should read "obsessive". Therefore ignore comments from people who havent shown any balance in their postings before.

[vijayr]

"onsessive hatred of IR is very evident if you have been following his posts over the past years"

funny, coming from you, an obsessive fanatic, who thinks anyone who even remotely criticizes IR has to have an ulterior motive or hatred. I have been following your posts as well. Sympathize with you for living in such a paranoid, insecure world where you constantly need to read posts that either praise IR or agree with you, in order to validate your taste. (And anyone who doesnt like IR's new albums is either strongly biased against him or arent his fans)


And NO, my comments were'nt against IR as much as against a few of his fans here who want to hush up the whole situation, pretend as if nothing happened and move on. Some of them even want IR to get paid by TM.

[TISK]

I fully agree with your views,Mr.'kr' and thank you for the same..
I too got in primarily as an IIR fan and am still one.
I only acted as a liason for like-minded fans in USA to make TiS happen and t[h]is would not have been possible but for all your keen interest in getting this done.
Having said this, I happen to know more about a morally noble person in Fr.Jegath [who too IS an IIR admirer], whose motive also was to make this happen.
Unfortunately, I happen to be a witness of his humiliation and hardships which he went thru during the process and hence, his statements should not be viewed as an 'acusing party's' as you have specified.
We all want to have a happy ending without tarnishing anyone's image and for that as Mr.'MSK' had suggested, it is better to get this past us and move on and will see what is in store for us.
Thanks.

YIA!

[kr]

TISK:

therefore, can we discuss how we can help in makin sure Fr. Jegath and you get over the financial difficulties. I have a marketing background. I can work with you marketing the CDs. In an earlier post, I had mentioned targeting music departments/faculty members and religion departments in universities in the US. We can also help you with further funds towards your financial difficulties.

I however find it hard to believe the accusations that has been goin on this forum that IR has done a scam with this project. When you listen to TIS and the effort that has been put by IR in its composition and orchestration, it has not been done with the aim of scam in mind. If monetary gain was the objective, IR could have done some standard run of the mill populist stuff and made money that way. You wouldnt get the caliber of TIS composition.

In addition, if money making was IR's objective, he could have towed the wishes of so many of the producers and directors he had alienated for his principles in the last decade.

Also look at how many experiental movies and directors that IR has supported in his career. Even in the recent past - films kike Kutti, Karuvelam pookal etc. This is not the money making person that is being portaryed here.

Unfortunately, your frustration has become a fooder for obsessive IR haters in this forum for furtherin their agenda.

[kr]

Mr. Vijayr:

Your obsessive hatred for IR has clouded your judjement and perceptions and hence it is not surprising that you consider anyone with a different perspective than yours as hard core IR fans. I just hope that someday your hatred subsides and wisdom and better judgement prevails. Good luck!

[vijayr]

"and hence it is not surprising that you consider anyone with a different perspective than yours as hard core IR fans"

nice job twisting my words. I never said anyone with a different perspective is a hardcore fan. I know the difference between a hardcore fan of IR's music and a fanatic. All I said was some of the hardcore fans here want to hush up the whole thing or ignore it.
But your comments are'nt suprising, because thats what you do all the time, twist other people's words to ease your way out of a difficult spot. I too hope that your fanaticism subsides one day and you realize that if someone doesnt like a particular song that you do, it doesnt mean they harbor hatred for IR or that they have an ulterior motive. Its perfectly OK for someone to dislike something that you like and vice versa.

[baroque]

Kr says, ' I had mentioned targeting music departments/faculty members and religion departments in universities in the US. '


Dear Kr,

We can send the music departments complementary copy of TIS. If the faculty like it, if TIS is relevant to the subject they are teaching, then they may mention as 'suggested listening'! that's my understanding!!

We can request our local libraries to bring TIS for us(public) to access! We need to fill some forms!! TISK, you can check the details from your local library!

[cry_sandiego]

TISK,

Good One.

( I am assuming u are Dr.Sankar Kumar or an office bearer of TiS-US ). Anyway your last post shows a lot of maturity/patience and focus on solving the problem rather than trying to point fingers.

I am sure most DF'ers here ( atleast the ones that participate in IR's forums that i know of ) are professionals and sincere in their words. There are very few people who argue madly as a IR fanatic or argue just for the sake of proving that they are not as fanatic as the others and using the opportunity to negative comments against others like IR. Your half baked comments like " he did more than this " etc shows just your venting and frustartion after you have done all the hard work.. It has not definitely helped the problem you have in your hand.

If i were you or to suggest anything, I would say write to the TiS-USA/TM supporters. You have their emails. You have the database of who donated/contributed their time and efforts etc to a cause spearheaded by you. So write to them the facts and seek their help/support/guidance on how to resolve the issues ! Many of these hubbers are professionals working in various fields and have extensive experience and contacts. Instead of that your approach seems to be just venting your frustration and indirectly pointing fingers in a public forum. Not very professional/Systematic. Your letter from TM ( Fr.Jegath ) also seems like a desperate/Childish measure to me. ( I was surprised that Fr. not only being a good person but also a religious person even agreed to doing that .. The basic tenet of Thiruvasagam ( Father seems to be very prolific in Tamil Literature. ) is " Thaame Thamakku vithi Vagaiyum ".
It means " Theethum Nandrum pirar thara Vaara ".. I am sure you understand that.

Also, i am not sure if TiS and TM plan to work on more similar projects in the future! ( Father in his interview in the Launch DVD stated something like doing Puranaanuru /Thirukural etc.. sounds exciting ). If so , you do not want to burn bridges now - either with IR or any one else involved in this. Instead of taking this as " Pothumda Saami " or cover my debts and move on " you might want to take a positive, colloborative approach.. You have now learned a lot of valuable lessson.. The important being " Good intentions alone and blind faith/trust alone do not help" - ( Remember the Thirukural - " Ithanai ivanal ivan ..." ).

Next time keep up your good intentions but at the same time have clear /formal / legal plan. Register your supporters/donors as TiS-US Members. maintain a good rapport with them not only during your good times but during your challenging times as well. For ex. There was no official email to the donors saying the project is completed and scheduled to release. I had to check the website to get the update.. All these go a long way in buidling a truly great organization that is not only successful but very professional as well. The same goes to TM as well.

Anyways, I am glad you are turning in the right direction. I wish you all the best in your efforts and I am sure sooner or later you will feel happy that your efforts are bearing fruits. Look at the big picture. Your life does not end with TiS-US burning fingers on this maiden project. There is a chinese proverb - The greatest mistake one can make is not making one at all ( very similar to " Failures are the stepping stones !! ).

Cheers
MSK

[vijayr]

"Your half baked comments like " he did more than this " etc shows just your venting and frustartion after you have done all the hard work.. It has not definitely helped the problem you have in your hand."


"Not very professional/Systematic. Your letter from TM ( Fr.Jegath ) also seems like a desperate/Childish measure to me."

"There was no official email to the donors saying the project is completed and scheduled to release. I had to check the website to get the update.."

"Instead of that your approach seems to be just venting your frustration and indirectly pointing fingers in a public forum"


See, this is what I am talking about. In the pretense of writing supporting posts for TISK, fanatics like MSK are taking jabs and potshots at TIS-USA all the time. Discerning readers will see through their shallow veil. And this is the same guy who a few posts back wanted everyone to ignore this and move on. And now he is back giving "advice" on this matter.

[kavin]

A scoop, breaking news.. in summary

Initial contract between TM and IR in 2002: Both will jointly produce and hold ownership to TIS in all its forms (speculative then itself!!). TM will invest money. IR will compose. The profits if any will go towards starting music institutions. There was a clause that both parties have to agree on distribution details.

2-3 years later,

TM campaigned nationally and internationally for donations. Yahoo group got into action and tried to mobilise funds. Not enough. TIS-USA came in. Active campaigning was launched in US. Lukewarm response from Europe. TIS-USA attained significance. It faced barriers in the form of lack of credibility. IR was asked to visit US and add credibility to the project, since till then there was no word from him about the project. He made couple of speeches stating his wish and presented it as his dream.

By mid 2004 just enough funds and logistics for Tamil version with English lyrics which was completed by the end of 2004. Decision was made to release TIS in its present form and negotiations for distribution contracts commenced.

Sony was approached. Sony asked for sufficient pre-release orders to ascertain marketability. Insufficient pre-release orders and Sony was not interested. 4 months passed. Tsunami diverted attention of people. Charity was less forthcoming for TIS obviously in the aftermath of tsunami.

Saregama made an initial agreement to distribute and negotiations were on to work out the details. Release dates were fixed. Some corporate sponsorship deals came along. TM was able to recover major part of its debts. TM's confidence in TIS had by then waned and was not hoping for anything more and was only keen to break even and reap on the credibility of having helped make TIS. Whatever Saregama offered was good enough. IR decided otherwise and rejected the deal.

The clause in the original contract came in handy for IR. His agreement was necessary for any contract that TM made over TIS!!! Major fallout between TM and IR. IR threatened to withold release of TIS ('duress'). Time was running out since the release date was fixed. The deadlock had to be sorted out between IR and TM. Both sit down again on the negotiation table to work out a compromise. TM surrenders the original contract.

The new contract: IR will hold the intellectual copyright for TIS-current version. TM will continue to hold joint ownership with IR for its future distribution in India only. The music company which will distribute TIS in its current version in India will be chosen by IR. TM will be given CDs to recover their financial investments and the corporate sponsorships will go to TM. TIS in its current form will be jointly presented so that TM is recognised for its efforts. TM will have no say in the contract negotiations of distributors abroad. A delay in distribution by any music company will be delayed in USA so that TM has sufficient time to recover its investments from USA. (apparently IR was supremely confident of his idea of fair play and maintained his smiling cordiality through out while TM just couldn't break through the wall)

Above are only key points more interesting clause in the contract which will become evident in the near future.

The result: TM agrees to the new contract though cries foul privately. Both parties agree to present cordiality in public prior to its release since it is in their best interest. TM/TIS-USA launches a fresh campaign asking donors to buy CDs in bulk not just for their own listening but also as a year long gifts to their friends. Campaigns for people to pre-order giving the impression that people may not get the CD otherwise and also promises same day delivery of its release. Making of TIS DVD confusion sets in. Yahoo Group works with TM in TN and manages the stalls for sales. Surprise surprise - TM runs out of CDs delivered by the music company within couple of days of release. No such luck to TIS-USA which struggles to empty its stocks.

more later.....

[baroque]

Friends, Any of you member of Bay Area telgu association? Large telgu population in Bay Area,CA! Most of them will definetely be exposed to IR's music! Is there an opportunity for TIS-sales there????????
http://www.bata.org/index.html

[dude]

"Your half baked comments like " he did more than this " etc shows just your venting and frustartion after you have done all the hard work.. It has not definitely helped the problem you have in your hand."


"Not very professional/Systematic. Your letter from TM ( Fr.Jegath ) also seems like a desperate/Childish measure to me."

"There was no official email to the donors saying the project is completed and scheduled to release. I had to check the website to get the update.."

"Instead of that your approach seems to be just venting your frustration and indirectly pointing fingers in a public forum"


See, this is what I am talking about. In the pretense of writing supporting posts for TISK, fanatics like MSK are taking jabs and potshots at TIS-USA all the time. Discerning readers will see through their shallow veil. And this is the same guy who a few posts back wanted everyone to ignore this and move on. And now he is back giving "advice" on this matter.


Vijayr, this is getting tiresome. Your posts seem to be one flamebait after another. If you have anything constructive to say about this issue, please do. Otherwise, YES, we get your point.

Now, can you wait until the other side of the issue comes out?

[Shankar]

ayyo dude...don't give a lead for another argument :-(

[zz]

Rajasaranam,

There was post from you which is obviously now lying under so many other posts. You sarcastically said that other group members can have their party now...or some thing meaning what was quite obvious from your post.

I would like to mention that I am a ARR fan and I almost listen to only his music some 95% of time. I adore him and I consider him as a genius...have no doubt about that. But that does not make my vision towards IR blurred. I am speaking on belaf of 100s of ARR fans like me who still have high regards of IR. (ARR fans..like maddy..I hope you agree to me)

You have to belive that I was one amoung the very very few who bought TIS immediately from MW upon its arival. I do not regret for that. I am pained by reading the matters here and I have een posted here asking fans to look IR music and his personal attitudes as two different things mutually exclusive of each other.

In your whole discussions about this issue since it started, can you find a single post from any ARR fan ridiculing IR or the effort or TIS for the matter. ? Can you find any sarcastic ridicule or provocationg post from any of my group guys on IR on this issue.? Any any of ARR group member taken any sides in this?

Imagine this hypothetical case. Replace IR with ARR and TIS with any other album of ARR which had created huge prerelease hype and later upon release received a lukeworm response...would you or many of the regular trouble makers from your side abstained from making fun of ARR in his treads???...Imagine..

I could clearly see that you meant only ARR group members like Maddy etc in your post, asking them to have party..in a sence asking them to come and spoil the thread...but I could also understand that you did not mean it in the form of hurting anybody...or say demean anybody. What I could infer is that your impression about ARR fans added with the troubled water in the IR's pond made you come out with that one liner automatically.

Thru this long post I just want to set things right and say that ARR fans are not like what you think or presume...We are a mature lot and are REAL MUSIC FANS

Sorry if this post has hurt anybody..it is not intended that way.

[rajdes]

Well, it is tough to spend time on all responses. I will stick to my appraisal of Fr Jegath's letter. Now, who am I to do that? Morally speaking, with my negligible contribution towards TiS, you guys could pounce and ask that question. However, we have finally descended to character-analysis of public persons so I guess I can post my 2 cents:(which (literally) probably was my contribution anyway!):
1. It is clear that IR held up signing the agreement or forcing his agreement on Fr Jegath and TM.
2. Why did the latter take that? According to people who know him and TiSK, it is because of total benevolence and a desire to see IR's monumental work released. We have to believe that - though personally I do believe that each person in the chain had their own personal agenda(if it was no more rebirths for IR, I am sure Fr Jegath had some similar gratification as motivation(dotn punce on me and say christianity doesnt believe in rebirth - it could be some other spiritual reason - and TiSK sure has a personal reason(maybe his personal desire to make something worthwhile of his life - I, for one, for all my cynical nature would sure fantasise about sacrificing as much as TiSK to achieve something as monumental as his efforts have achieved though living that out would be a nightmare. )
3. It is clear that Fr Jegath, TM and TIS-USA have had the gratification of playing their part in something as 'significant' as TiS - which is clear from Fr Jegath's latter as well.
4. Having doen all this, now they are realising that they are 10 feet deep in water.
5. I am sorry, this was predicted way back in 2003 in this very forum, in this very thread. At that time, it was just someone playing the devil's advocate. There were clear exhortations( from what looked like mischief makers then) that "What will you do if IR cheated you in this manner- yes, exactly the manner that has been described?"
6. I am sorry to say those people were dubbed as mischief mongers and were derided as people out to defame IR and look what it has led to?
Personally, my heart goes out, not even for TM but for Mr TiSK, who right before my eyes, has been hit below the belt.
7. And I am sorry, Fr Jegath conveniently passing the buck to IR to blame for TIS-USA's fate doesnt get much sympathy from me. Who is he to forgive IR? .If anyone, it is TiSK who has the moral uphand in all this. If Fr Jegath is sincere about his obligation to TiSK and TIS-USA, he has to make this issue public, raise questions about IR's morality in Tamil Fora (very easy to do, just pass on this site's address to Kumudam or Vikatan - they would be happy to lap it up and out of all that churning, we can hope that truth will come out).
Why, gnani and his cohorts in small magazines would be more than willing to rake the issue up.
If he is not going to do that for TiSK, I am sorry, I dont have any sympathy for him.
8.(sorry I lost track of numbers!)By pre-emptively forgiving IR, Fr Jegath has given no chance for the truth to emerge.

I will not take Fr Jegath's words as the last words on this controversy - someone has to accuse IR in the public and force him to react. If he does so, based on his reactions, I will condemn/condone him. Till then for a truly objective observer (ie) who has no sort of conscious/unconscious bias for either party(no faith component - be it "IR can do no wrong" faith of the IR fanatic or "Fr Jegath cannot do any wrong" faith of the Fr Jegath acquaintances) judgement will be reserved.


vijay, I have to reply to you. Based on what you said, you are justiffied in suspecting IR and raising questions on his morality. Now that you have explained, it definitely makes sense. But you have to understand that it wasnt obvious at all before this explanation so this explanation was necessary - this is what I meant last time when I asked you to clarify - not that you should clarify your position to everyone but any objeective poster should, shouldnt he?)
Also, none of what you said as reasons are strong enough for me (simply because I stand in the middle - I dont know either TiSK or Fr Jegath or IR personally to conclude strongly on their motives - I can only go by information available on public domain and not disputed by either party - simply put, you know more than I know but you(when I say you, I include everyone from TM and TIS-USA) havent shared it with us except as 'hints' and 'inuendo's

I am sorry to say TiSK Sir , while this will definitely get you support from people who you know and your moral courage and righteousness, I would like you to consider the point of view of the average detached observer(and it is very important that you do because in terms of legal or ethical support like boycotting IR's future albums you need support from people like me - when I say this you, TISK personally might not need this but I guess quite a few IR fans like Kiru have mentioned this as a course to take in the future) - and we will not be satisfied with forgiveness and that sort of thing. I will support you full-heartedly if you take legal action over IR or atleast work to expose his wrong-doings in the public domain. I, here, again, dont take it as arrogant I, rajdes. I think I am articulating for hundreds like me here who see it from a different point of view.

[thumburu]

It is not very clear from Fr.Gaspar's letter whether he or TM espoused the cause of TISK's huge personal loan, by making IR aware of this before handing over the funds to IR or is IR blisfully under the impression that whatever money that was raised by TIS-USA was by voluntary contribution and hence he had mo moral obligation to compensate TISK ?
Questions!!!

[thumburu]

Why should Father Gaspar urge people esp TIS-USA to forgive IR when they have borne the brunt? Probably TM is magnanimous enough to do so. How is TM planning to do the damage control? Atleast now after all these, have they confronted IR's camp in a more professional manner , say by having some sort of ombudsman?

[rajdes]

I have a few questions: Nothing personal here but I guess the following questions, if answered unambiguously, will give us a clue on who-is-who, what-is-what and who-is-what in this controversy?
1. Does IR know about TiS-USA's obligation. I will take TiSK's word for this. Did he know this before the release?
2. What were the objectives of TM viz-a-viz executing this project
a)in 2003
b)in 2004
c) in 2005 January
d)in 2005 July
e) just Before release
I hope you are not offended but from what I remember, this many versions of the objectives of the project were heard from 2003.
3. What was the original verbal agreement between(forget the legal documents - just what was the expectation at each of this level - and was it communicated to both parties at each level at that time?Can anyone state this without ambiguity?)
a) IR and TM/Fr Gasper
b) TM and TIS-USA
c) IR and TIS-USA
( I am sure someone here can answer this unambiguously and without any shred of doubt)
4. From what I can see, IR, right through the release has been harping on his rebirth-factor as the reason for this project he undertook. Why didnt he or even Fr Gasper mention the Research College angle in the TiS Release function?Why? Why, indeed? Or did they mention and I missed it?Why didnt the TM take him to task for that at that point?
5. Why did everyone concerned with the project suddenly jump on the Tsunami relief bandwagon in 2005 January? What happened to it now?
6. What was that about lobbying for the Grammy award? Why should anyone lobby? Why should anyone spend even a single cent or even a minute of his valuable time on trying to get the Grammy award for IR? Wasnt the project started with more significant objectives? If so, why someone should divert their attention to this insignificant bit when that time can be spent on achieving the original objectives - namely, setting up music foundations in TN and SL and helping Tsunami Relief?
7. Why should I not dismiss the "forgive" angle as a red herring? I mean, if IR was even ethically in the wrong, state it here - and IR will suffer. I mean, we already have fans like Kiru losing enthusiasm for his music so obviously, if you post clear unambiguous allegations(hey I dont even need proof - I will take your word for it), then IR will, I am sure, lose more fans. Please dont forgive him. Sorry he doesnt need it. If he is in the wrong, what he needs is a kick in the butt - even if he loses one fan because of this, that would be justice done in my opinion.

These questions really intrigue me. I dont know the Father so I dont want to assume his innocence without a proper answer to these questions

To IR, I would ask the following questions:
1. Why hasnt he responded to these allegations at any level. Presumably, tamilcinema.com may not be a reputed site but still , it is read by enough people so doesnt he think it is his obligation to issue a clarification yet?
2. Does he consider compensating fans like TISK, out of his personal wealth, even as an option? If he doesnt, my respect for him will go down several notches. Has this avenue been explored and turned down already by IR?Can someone answer that
3. Did IR use profits from TiS for
a) The Offering in the temple
b) Bhava's wedding. Is it just a coincidence that the wedding took place just around the time of the post-release
4. Is anyone here alleging that
a) IR planned to use the gullible public and planned in 2003 that TM and TIS-USA will collect money from public and take loans and release the CD and then he can scoot off with the profit? Did he do this? Boy, in that case, he must be a criminal mastermind, right? Does anyone have the guts to make this allegation? Stick out your throats, if you can.
b) IR just evolved with the time and his initial idea was to get his talents noticed by releasing a symphony using money raised by TM. Later, when he saw the opportunity, he made further inroads and profiteered?

Clear-aa yaaravadhu allege pannungappa. Make it a definitve statement - adhukku peru dhaan allegation - hint ellam kudutha adhukku peryar speculation. Sorry, not everyone knows everyone in the project personally to believe that. Naan solradhu harsh-a irundhaa < I am really sorry>, but unga point of view-ku opposite point of view-vum irukkum. Adhai suppress panna mudiyaadhu.

[rajdes]

Also, idhai solliye aaganum. For all whatever has passed, I realise that TiS would not have been possible without significant efforts of TiSK and Fr Gasper. I must really thank them for the personal pleasure I have derived from their hardowrk for close to, what, 3 years. If nothing else, TiSK has achieved something that we, the other people who are arguing here, cannot expect to achieve in a lifetime. I am sure he has the best wishes, blessings and support of many fans and I am sure it will get him out of the mess. Ennala mudinja alavu copies naan vangitten - but since I bought in India so I dont know if it will benefit him. I too believe that it is our duty to buy as many as we can afford, for the simple reason that but for the efforts of this man, you would simply not have been able to hear this masterpiece from IR. We would have been forced to satisfy our palates with COA and TTLS, adhukkagavavadhu he deserves a lift from us.

[rajdes]

Irrespective of kavin's motives ro credentials(as perceived by people who say, sorry, hint, that "IR has cheated") , can someone answer his questions or respond to the sequence of events he has outlined?
I mean, it is alright to discredit him saying his posts are nonsense but a fair-minded person would actually negate/confirm what he has posted as the sequence of events and role played by various parties in the making of TiS.

[rajdes]

Someone said "Dont be so humble. You are not so great" appadinnu.
When I read about the forgiveness statment, I dont know why this quote flashed past my mind.

[rajdes]

Adding some more important questions from previous posters since my posts have moved those to old responses:
(following courtesy njv)
1. If IR along with his "other" partnership release TIS-CD in USA at the same time TIS-USA launched the CD,then TIS-USA would have been financially impacted - This didnt happen

2. If IR along with his "other" partnership release TIS-CD now/in future, it will have some impact to TIS-USA on a long run TIS will be an ever selling album. So far this didnt happen. So give the benefit of doubt to IR, because we are after all his fans!

3. If IR along with his "other" partnership release TIS-CD in other part of the world, it would have impact to Tamil maiyam (and hence TIS-USA, since TIS-USA funded majority of the money). Is it the case.

3.a TIS is being marketted by AgniMusic in Malaysia. Is this agreement between IR and Agni or TM and Agni? Who can answer this question

3.b. In UK and Canada, Indian edition of TIS (Welgate) is being sold. Who is marketting Indian edition of TIS in UK/USA. Is it TM or IR thru' his "other" partnership?

3.c Who is selling TIS in other tamil populated countries such as Srilanka, Middle East, France (believe me, Paris this is the hub of thiruttu vcd!)

njv said "who will answer". I say the people who have made hints, allegations and inuendos have to answer my questions, kavin's version and the above questions by njv. Otherwise, any objective person can only dismiss the issue.

And no, I am not IR or YSR or KR or Bhavadharini in disguise!

[vijayr]

rajdes, I didnt read through all your long posts(also you seem to be replying after 3 days every time) nor do I intend to drag the discussion any further. But I have clarified my stance(atleast somewhat) earlier.I have some of the same questions as you do too and hopefully they will be addressed by the concerned parties(including IR) in the near future. I was only irked by the attitude of some ppl here who wanted to ignore the whole thing and move on, since it was IR who was involved.

[baroque]

rajdes says, 'TiSK has achieved something that we, the other people who are arguing here, cannot expect to achieve in a lifetime. I am sure he has the best wishes, blessings and support of many fans and I am sure it will get him out of the mess'


I agree with you on this!! My sincere wishes to Dr.shankar, as a friend, a IR fan who is enjoying TIS, will always value your contribution to this project. I will try to help you in whatever way I can.

[njv]

While all this issue is giong on, I heard that few "major" companies are already talking to IR with regards to his next symphony. This time for a change the business is discussed at first, since IR is going to "charge" for composing as well!

Please dont pull my tounge and ask for more details. If you dont want to belive me and quote me as a liar, I am perfectly happy with that than giving out any names now!

[kiru]

rajdes, Fr. Jegath and TISK are not saying it - but I can deduce that they are accusing IR of getting a 'kickback' from Wellgate. It seems very plausible to me.
kavin's narration of sequence of events does not change my impression of the situation. I dont know what he thinks. But thanks to him for the sleuthing.
TISK, is also saying indirectly, that IR has to speak on this issue.

[kr]

If Kavin's sequence of events are facts:

a. IR did not have an issue with the original terms of the agreement between TM & IR until to the point negotiations were taking place with Sony & Saregama.

b. The diagreement came in when TM wanted to settle with Saregama at terms which TM thought would be sufficient to pay off their debts but IR felt was beneath his perceived value of the work.

c. Therefore he rengotiated the deal with TM to get the sole power to negotiate but felt that he was being fair to TM and TIS-US by providing CDs to them for use earlier than others for those territories at a discounted price.

Before coming to the judegement of finding IR guilty, you have to take into account the fact that IR may have believed that TIS could have been undersold to its value based on the financial pressures building on TM and hence decided to renegotiate the deal.

By giving market exclusivity during the launch phase and providing 8000 CDs at a discount price (about $5 was mentioned here before compared to a selling price of $15), he could have felt that TIS-US could make out $80,000 in profits in lieu of the loans. This may be a honest misassessment of demand and pride in his work that would have made IR not wanting to undersell to its value and have no evil motives at all.

If money making was his motive, he would not have split with many top producers/directiors based on principles. He would be a media hog rather than shy away from the media. He would not be politically incorrect if money making was his objective in life.
I wish when TM had renegotiated, they had asked Wellgate to repay the loans from the profits.


Before anyone screams, read the first sentence - this is all if the sequence of events stated by Kavin are indeed facts -

[kiru]

#c - is not a good reason to renegotiate the contract. Since his consent was required for any deal, IR could have always negotiated a better contract with anybody, within the boundaries of the original contract. In Kavin's, account, only TIS was to recover its contribution by selling CDs. TM had to recover its contribution from royalties from the distributor. If the distributor agreed upon is one solely favored by IR, there are reasons for suspicion of a kickback.
To play the devil's advocate, the reason for renegotiation of contract, is for IR to regain control of the product and thereby profit from it. I hope, whenever, Kavin says, IR holds the copyright, he is referring to the non-profit IR foundation. If not, this itself, is a clear misuse of public money for personal profits (albeit with TM and TIS-USA also being responsible for abetting it).

[rajdes]

vijay, I understand that you are irked by the attitude of IR fanatics. But again I cannot agree that that could be a reason to tarnish IR - admittedly, your stance is based on what you have heard about IR's behaviour in the past and knowledge of some details about this transaction, presumably because you know something from TiSK or TM. But
again and again and again, questions are being swept under the carpet - it is just like "Okay we financed this. IR cheated us. Believe us. Have blind faith in us and support us". It will not work like that. Even someone who knows TiSK as hazily as I know and is inclined to help might not come forward with this sort of attitude from you. I mean, if IR fanatics' reaction irks you enough for you to deliberately post extreme views on IR, your deliberate extreme views on IR could also evaporate some of the potential money makers for TiSK. I hope you understand that.
Besides, you may have enough faith in TiSK and TM so you might accept that IR has cheated just because TiSK and TM say so. Sorry the general public need not subscribe to that - and in doing that he is in the same moral plane as you - his blind faith is in IR , your open-eyed faith is in TiSK. In my view, both stances are the same. You dont have proof that IR has cheated but you have already taken a 90% view that he cheated. By the same token, blasphemous as it might seem here, the IR fanatic has a right to pre-judge that TiSK and TM are not telling the whole truth.

I can only post irregularly because of the nature of my work and my commitments. If you wont read through my posts and stick to your opinion, what can I say - you just dont want to hear the other side of the view, do you? Upto you, one side of the picture never ever gives the whole picture -Hthat is why I am asking you guys to give the full picture offrom your POV, becaue I want to know the full picture not just the picture painted by IR fanatics - but unfortunately, I am only getting one-sided opinions and judgements not cold facts either from you or TiSK or anyone.

Also, TiSK said 2 parties have already responded and only IR hasnt responded. This is not true. TiSK and Fr Gasper have only hinted. Their response is as misted in mystery as IR's non-response.

Sorry, there is more to this than meets your eye or mine. I am waiting for the truth but I think you have already made a judgement that IR is wrong, which may be right but anyone who is condemning IR now, even on the basis of their faith in Fr. or TiSK are not being objective. This includes you.

[rajdes]

One curious thing is people who express faith in IR and say that "IR cannot ever be wrong" are blind fanatics (ofcourse they are - this part is indisputable)
But people who express faith in Fr Gasper and believe that he can never do wrong are not? Why should I not question his motives and ask for proof from you guys instead of going by blind faith on him? Ofcourse, he might be a saint but why should I believe that based on *blind faith*? Why am I a blind IR fanatic if I ask for proof?Che, naan proof kooda ketkalai allegation dhaan kettaen.
*Why?*
Unga logic padi, consider this:
IR has worked on some social causes before and donated and performed concerts for social causes before so can anyone who worked with him during that time and lost touch with him later and thus, saw only the good side of IR preclude the possibility of IR ever doing wrong ever? Appadi solravar blind fanatic-aa? Sensible person-aa? Please choose only one out of the two answers.
.

[rajdes]

kiru, now we are beginning to talk. So there is a prima-facie case and there is a plausible motive for IR to take kick-backs. Good.Agreed. Is this what happened? Do we have enough reason to conduct a court-martial of IR in our hearts and hang him(ie) stop listening to him for his 'crimes' based on this plausibility?

[rajdes]

kiru, what bothers me is this forgiveness angle. This is not at all fair. In Christianity, paava mannippu is kept confidential, right?. Correct me I am wrong, it is given if the paavi confesses to his faults, and the assumption is that that implies he feels sorry for it. Correct-aa? Ippadi, public-aa IR-kku, IR ketkamaleye Paava Mannippu edharku? Dont take it as a religious slur, I just want to understand one particular aspect of this issue. I will withdraw this post if it offends anyone.

[*]

curiouser and curiouser....

TiS seems resigned to have a permanent cloud of dust around it. As TM and Tis-USA have decided to get on with it, I dont envisage any conclusive end to the speculations. And IR being very non-communicative with his projects(right from 1993 symphony days and much before), it is unlikely he will ever come public to clear his name. Which is not going to happen as TM/TiS-USA are not going to take up the issue with him, as doing that will only vitiate the aura around a great personality. Even if they decide to battle and win, it will only be a pyrrhic victory! But the finger of suspicion will always point to IR since his enigmatic qualities are well known to the public. You dont even have to be a critic to think in this direction.

Besides, everything is in the eyes of the beholder. Now it is well known that IR hated the press. Going through the few press interviews he gave, the IR fan(including myself) would feel the scribe was trying hard to get IR to mouth some slander or arrogant statement. But honestly, even as a staunch IR fan, putting myself in the journalist's shoes, I would feel reasonably irritated with IR's monologues and one-line answers. I would definitely feel interviewing a guy like IR would be a big nightmare and hate such an assignment.

If IR's music means more than anything else, you would demolish every contrary notion and hand over the benefit of nightmare to IR. If you are a fair minded fan, despite your addiction to his works, you will definitely feel that TM/TiS-USA got a raw deal.(Now this of course is as per MY DEFINITION of fair!). Since IR is the hub of this project, you will feel IR can do anything and get away unscathed, since TM and TiS-USA are just newbies to the trade.

rajdes, dont analyse too hard to get the context of FJG's "manippu" statement - the answer lies in your earlier statement itself - FJG need not be a saint coz of his designation - If what he says and does is coz of his beliefs, then he would not have been involved in TiS nor have been an LTTE sympathiser as he is well known.

There are absolutely no absolutely in this world, everything is gray!

warm regards
*

[A Rajiv-cum-Prabhakaran fan :) ]

[*]

errata:
benefit of nightmare = benefit of doubt
absolutely no absolutely = absolutely no absolutes

[rajdes]

oh!prabhu, no problems. I will not lose a day's sleep if it turns out that IR is a cheat. In the sense that I am not linking my emotional well-being to IR's honesty :-). Ofcourse, one's heart will then go out for TM and TIS-USA. That is a different story.

My point is
1) It is clearly established and repeated that blind IR fanaticism is well, stupid. Anyone believing that IR is absolutely innocent and can never do wrong at all is stupid and a fanatic. Fair enough.
2) Will not the same norm apply to blind faith on the other side? How does slandering IR balance out the blind statements made by fanatics of IR? Fine, slander to your heart's content but for someone to be taken seriously with their slander, they've got to at the least make a definitive allegation. Summa Person X is honest according to my evaluation so IR is bound to be wrong-nu logic sonna sirippu dhaan varudhu.There is no difference between blind IR fanatics and them. I would put both on the same moral/ethical plane.

I am irritated for the same reason vijay got irritated with statements like "IR can never do wrong" or "let's move on - yaaru cheat panna enna". By the same token, "Hint! Hint!IR thappu panninaru namma mannichuduvom" appadinnu mottaiya sonna, in my books that is slander;slur;blasphemy;inuendo. I wont hesitate to decry that sort of statement.

[rajdes]

ir interview panradhy nightmare-na pannadheenga. It sells copies-nu dhaane you are going to him for quotes. Appo, suffer the agony. Magazine-oda labathukkaga dhane avar kitta poranga. Sondha labathukkaga dhaane avaru kitta interview-kku poranga.
Namma ellam perfect humans, avaru mattum dagul party, lollu party, sondha laabathukkaga enna vena pannuvarnu cycle gap-la auto vitta eppadi? 90% of humans, including many who take the moral high horse here are opportunists who will do anything for personal profit(that profit need not be material - it could be some spiritual high/popularity/furthering one's social agenda etc). And ellam aana appuram, we always blame others for our plight - namma side-um thappunnu vothukkave mattom. Adhu dhaan inge nadakkudhu.
IR dagul party-na, indha vishayathula, adhula paadhi dagul-ukku responsibility-avadhu mathavangalaiyum serum. Mothama, IR dagul-nala fans ellam emathapattangannu sonna, sirippu dhaan varudhu

Seri vidunga, enakku enna. Ethai thinna enna. Pitham thelinja sari. Fullstop.

[njv]

3. Did IR use profits from TiS for
a) The Offering in the temple
b) Bhava's wedding. Is it just a coincidence that the wedding took place just around the time of the post-release


IR makes 25 laksh / movie for the past decade. if he really wanted 1 crore, its a matter of 4 days - 1 day for 1 movie. I am sure the quality wont be great but why would he care if making money is the only aim.

Between 2003 and 2005 how many movies IR worked on? Less than 10, from the same guy who did more than 60/year.

So I do have a "feeling" that IR did attempt TIS sincerely. Something got changed, god only knows what, that put him, TM and TIS-USA in a situation we are in now.

I hope TISK/Fr will divert the questions that we raise here to IR. Dont know if he replies or not, but atleast he should know that people are not blind.

[pro20035]

Hello All,


A lot of nonsense is being discussed in these columns of late. The impression i get from all people is that ilayaraja has commited a great mistake. The forum seems to be divided into those who think that he should confess to his so called sins and those who think that regardless of his crimes and misdemeanours his music is what that really matters. Basically it seems that IR has been judged guilty even without a trial .


I have been sceptical about TIS from the beginning itself, due to a lost of reasons. The ambitions, motives and scope were not clear. A new, but controversial thing is that involvement of fans and fan groups in funding of the project.

I would like to analyse this issue from all viewpoints and try to stir a decent, rational and intelligent debate. It is not a big suprise that i have given preference to my viewpoints , since it is my posting.

First of all, what were the motives of the project and were they viable? The official line is to take the message of thiruvasagam to the younger generation who have lost touch with their spiritual roots. Only IR can tell us what the real motive is. I dont think making thiruvasagam in symphony is any way to do that. For starters, there are two unknowns( thiruvasagam and symphony), which makes it difficult to reach a larger audience. Contrary to original claims that it would be made in tamil, english, hindi, german and so on, eventually we ended up making it only in tamil, which severely restricts the range of the product to a few tamil speaking people in tamilnadu and the tamil diaspora, which is not so large compared to the hindi speaking group. Making an instrumental project without music, on the lines of HOW TO NAME IT or NOTHING BUT WIND would have given an international reach. Dont know who gives ideas to IR or if any person has that power to.

Second, once a project has been conceived, it has to be implemented in a professional manner. Once the feasibily and viability of the project has been ensured, a professional approach has to be taken to take the project to its conclusion. Who dealt with this. A Father who has no experience in managing such a project and a bunch of novice fans who have no experience in a project of such scale. It was obvious from this stage, that it would be a roller coaster ride all the way.

Fund raising- This was not at all done in a professional way and i have serious misgivings about the way it was done. I am still not sure why fans should have to fund the project. As somebody said if IR wanted to do this project for self satisfaction ane ego integration of achieving his lifes purpose, he should have funded it himself and it is not a big deal for a man who has earned so much in the last twenty five years( 25lakhs perfilm as suggested by somebody is absolutely over the top. Even top music directors (contemporary)like harris jeyaraj dont earn that much. Yuvan earns approximately 6 lakhs per film) He even donated more than 20 lakhs worth of jewels to his favourite deity.The fund raising was done professionally by some , such as the yahoo groups, where each contributor has been listed and the entire money which has been raised been announced and then handed over to the tamil mayyam. What about the other groups. For starters, i paid more than 500 dollars for the project , which has not been listed till now. I can prove this by my receipts. I can give the list of my friends names who have had similar experiences. The tamil mayyam and other groups keep claiming about loans they incurred for the project. I am baffled by these claims. Throughout the project , nobody said that TIS- USA are getting loans for the project. I think this is the biggest mystery in the project. We were led to believe that TIS_ USA is involved in bringing together people who were willing to donate to the project. At what stage were they involved in the sponsoring of the project. Who did they get the loans from? ARe they willing to publish the guys who gave them loans.


What is the expenditure of the project? Why did it require 1.4 crores. The expenses involved seem to be the hungarian orchestra and other foreigners used in the project. My technical knowledge in music is not adequate, but in my opinion, only POLLA VINAYEN requires a symphonic orchestra. All other songs could have been easily recorded in india. The album does not have such a staunch western classical slant, which could not have been recorded in india itself. Why go to Hungary?Only one song has childish english lyrics. Why do we have to go to New york for his lyric. Even myself could have written the english lyric. And why use the new york guy for sound mixing. I cant see any big necessity for that. AR Rahman and Harris Jeyaraj have incredible sound recording in their albums, which are better than TIS on any day. There is no point in keeping on whining that it costed 1.4 crores. Nobody is going to believe it, unless the exact expenses are listed. I am sure more than 50 % of the project has been funded by fans and sponsors, so u cant keep saying the budge is 1.4 crores. Does the budget include salary for IR and his trips. It would be a big surprise and disappointment if it is so.


There were inconsistences, misinformation throughout the project. There is no time or space for listing all of them. The project date has been postponsed so many times. They were saying IR met kalam one day and he actually meets them 2 months after that. There were claims galore, none of which seem to have materialise, such as the claim of donation of profits tsunami victims. What happened to those?


Initially it was said that they have to go to welgate, because there were no takers. it was clearly mentioned in one of those earlier letters by father or his group that big names did not think the project is viable. Eventually it landed up on welgate. So , who are we supposed to believe. Just because a father or some guys in US accuse IR,it doesnt automatically mean IR is guilty and it does not also mean we are going to believe it.


It is fair to ask the people involved, to give a list of all donors, including the sponsors and how much money was raised. This will enable to find out where it went wrong.

It is a big shame that the project is called a loss. No project in recent times, including movies got as much unanimous publicity as TIS got. The media and celebrites endorsed it unequivocally and the sales was unparalleled. No non film album in recent times has received so much warmth and support. The sales record should be published to confirme if it is really a loss and if it is a loss the blame should completely fall on tamil mayyam and other guys who were involved who failed to use such goodwill and publicity.

The Fathers letter seems to be suggesting that IR should be adored for his music rather than for his financial dealings. I am not prepared for accepting this verdict. It has to be proved that IR has done something wrong. He may have, but equally he might not have and everybody is presumed innocent until proven guilty. For me the needle of suspicion points exactly to the opposite direction of IR . It is for these people to clarify their positions. If there are loopholes in the contract, it is the mistake of the guys who signed the contract. It is a different matter if IR has violated a contract. But if he is just doing what is in the contract, how can we blame him. It is very implicit in the fathers letter that IR is doing things according to the contract.


My conclusion, although not completely based on solid evidence, but putting together what is in public domain is that the project surprised everybody and did far better than expected. So there is lot of money available. Sharing the spoils has become the bone of contention and everybody seems to be pointing the finger at the other person


Mere barking and expletives wont make me change my opinion. Sane and rational arguments are welcome. The whole project is a good case study for everybody who wants to know how a project should not be done.

[baroque]

Dear USA IR fans,
Please pick up your Library card and visit your local library web site and fill out this
'media suggestion form'.
Does it guarantee us they are going to stock TIS in their shelves?? NO!
Budget cuts yellam yerukku rt, more over may be the decision is made by one person there, it's up to him or her!
But at least we know we are trying, It is totally worth it!!

Don't forget to print www.tis-usa.com as distributor!!

Please call & follow up on your suggestion too!!

Sample forms:-
Cary memorial Library form for purchase recommandation:
http://www.carylibrary.org/reference/purchase.html

Dr.Shankar, Can you upload some sample tracks of TIS in the web site www.tis-usa.com???
It will be helpful too!! love, Vinu.

[vijayr]

" I understand that you are irked by the attitude of IR fanatics. But again I cannot agree that that could be a reason to tarnish IR "

rajdes, my posts these last few days have nothing much to do with IR. I have been responding only to some of the fans here and have not tarnished IR anywhere in my response. I also clarified my earlier comment to Sanjeevi that you wanted a clarification for. So thats that. Anyways, I dont believe that ppl like IR can be easily tarnished by a comment here or there in a net forum. If I say Tendulkar is a jerk that doesnt tarnish him. Its just my opinion, thats all. Its like someone saying here that IR is god or a saint. We dont question him or ask him for proof, thats just his opinion.

"your deliberate extreme views on IR could also evaporate some of the potential money makers for TiSK"

what are the deliberate extreme views on IR I posted here in the last few days? My posts have only been against some of the fans here(and that too only a couple of them).A few HCIRFs have been apathetic here and dont want to ignore all this and "move on" and just listen to TIS.. I did'nt address them in my earlier posts. Also I dont think my posts here would add even an iota to whatever "damage" that has been caused so far by the tamilcinema report, TM's letter etc. in terms of reducing the potential moneymakers.

Also, neither do I have blind faith in TM nor in IR. My reactions here so far have been based on what I have read and heard here and elsewhere and based on my knowledge,(even if superficial) of what had transpired over the last few months. In fact you should be more concerned that some of the even bigger fans here want to sue IR or take legal action or stop listening to his music at all. Some ppl here have flipflopped between showing extreme faith in IR to showing no faith in him at all within a matter of day or two. That should be more worrying to you.

[app_engine]

"The media and celebrites endorsed it unequivocally and the sales was unparalleled. No non film album in recent times has received so much warmth and support."...

-May be in TN...what about places like Canada (Toronto has about 200K Srilankan Tamils...those with reasonable spending power) or Europe...was there a proper disti? If so how many were sold? Why TiS-USA cannot sell in Canada, are there any restrictions?...

-How many numbers were sold in Singapore / Malaysia which were not under `wellgate' control and TM-IR jointly appointed the disti (Remember reading KR attending the launch function where one of our senior hubbers, Manisekaran, was supposed to be attending). Going by the `buying-power' criteria again, what are the numbers sold there? And was the guarantee money to TM was lump sum or linked to each CD sold for that territory?

[MusicIsLife]

pro20035

Did you pay funds for the project? did you buy a CD? or copied from somebody

Let me tell you something, the problem was, not starting a NOT FOR PROFIT ORGANIZATION in the US for TiS. if they had done that, everything would have been smooth. Secondly, the production cost are really not cheap leave alone producing music.
They were trying to get the ball rolling, as I know a few people who were involved in this project were Doctors, and big wits, but they spent time to promote one thing, Thiruvasagam and Tamil in the US (which was a vision of IR). Probably that is the reason, all the speculation came to force.

If sony or other company had produced, none of the person here would talk.

IR surely did make music talk for him when TiS sales were tremendous, probably IR might not have thought such a demand.

[pro20035]

What do you mean, i paid for the project. I paid 500 dollars, which is not listed in the donors site, inspite of me querying me many times. i have the receipt to prove that i paid. and i did not copy the cd. I bought 15 cds and gifted to my friends. I am sure that lot of IR fans did the same. Still it is a wonder, why it should be a loss

[TISK]

Thank you, Ms. Vinu, for your sustained support. I have made arrangements to upload the samples and it is being worked out. Thank you again!

Also, a comprehensive account summary details for TiS-USa will also be uploaded very shortly.
YIA!!

[MumbaiRamki]

[tscii:574acdb3e6]Letter from Fr.Jegath ,in case not published..

Dear Friends,

This mail pertains to a news item that appeared in some web based
magazine and sites with regard to Thiruvasagam and UK distribution
rights, and the resultant confusion among the fans.

At the outset I wish to underline some important things. Ilaiyaraaja
Yahoo Groups for me has been a great and enriching experience of
life. In many a respect. I can never forget the passionate and
proactive support it gave for the TIS project. What brings this
group together and gives relevance to it are the common affection
and appreciation you all have for the great musical genius of
Maestro Ilaiyaraaja and his stupendous contributions to music. This
aspect has to be kept in mind in all our discussions and discerning.
Without an inch of hesitation I can state that like you I am proud
to live at a time when the Maestro lived and his musical genius is
undoubtedly unparalleled. However his musical genius does not make
him God and we should ensure to give him the freedom and space to be
a human being with the inherent human frailties and failures. Seen
from this perspective, I am sure our judgments will be better and
charitable even if there are problems with regard to individuals and
projects, in our case –Thiruvasagam in Symphony. Even such
judgments will be contested from protagonist and antagonist points
of view. That is fine. But such a clarity will again ensure that
none of these would diminish the musical respect we have for this
great genius.

Now about this news on Thiruvasagam and UK rights, I really do not
know. I heard people in the film industry talking about it. However
I must also admit that no overseas distribution arrangement has been
agreed so far (except Malaysia and Singapore) between Tamil Maiyam
and Maestro. Reasons, I don't intend to discuss in public. (Tamil
Maiyam and Ilaiyaraaja Trust are holding joint copy rights, that too
only for Tamil. Tamil Maiyam doesn't have rights for tracks or
interpolation in to other languages). The agreement was signed under
duress as IR had total control and possession of the tracks. The
release of the album became our foremost concern and we had to agree
to sign a contract prepared by his auditor. The original contract
which we had signed at thee start of the project had to be given up
under such a situation. The only oral agreement we had on overseas
distribution was to send 8000 CDs to TIS-USA under Dr.Sankar Kumar
to settle the loans they had incurred to complete this magnum opus.
It is indeed hurting and a crying shame for me personally and for
Tamil Maiyam that these decent people in the USA were first asked by
us to help, borrow and then dumped with CDs to sell and save
themselves.


Right now what I can tell you is, for a project in which we worked
for three years, invested almost 1.5 crores – much of it through
loans, and moved heaven and hell to make it a success, - what we
have received from the distribution company – Welgate so far is only
Rs. 5 lakhs. But for the sponsors we would be in a gravely serious
crisis. So friends if you really care help us to sell some more CDs.
Again Wegate was not our choice. Our choices were either Sony or
Sarigama. Both were willing to release the album and the basics of
the agreement had all been negotiated when IR insisted on Welgate.

Personally I may feel betrayed, insulted or humiliated and continue
to have sleepless nights about the huge remaining debts. That's OK.
After all Thiruvasagam is a great project. We all made it a success.
It has touched the souls of so many. Generations will relish this
masterpiece.

Above all, I believe we are all mature human beings and we should
respect ourselves by transcending. I have transcended. Truth always
has the capacity to speak for itself, in time and for ever.

My prayers are: Our burden of debts should be minimized quickly. You
should all remain positive to the core objectives of Ilaiyaraaja
Yahoo Groups – his music, and music alone.

Thank you. God bless us all.

Cordially,


Rev. Jegath Gaspar Raj.
[/tscii:574acdb3e6]

[Shankar]

Hello All,


A lot of nonsense is being discussed in these columns of late. The impression i get from all people is that ilayaraja has commited a great mistake. The forum seems to be divided into those who think that he should confess to his so called sins and those who think that regardless of his crimes and misdemeanours his music is what that really matters. Basically it seems that IR has been judged guilty even without a trial .


I have been sceptical about TIS from the beginning itself, due to a lost of reasons. The ambitions, motives and scope were not clear. A new, but controversial thing is that involvement of fans and fan groups in funding of the project.

I would like to analyse this issue from all viewpoints and try to stir a decent, rational and intelligent debate. It is not a big suprise that i have given preference to my viewpoints , since it is my posting.

First of all, what were the motives of the project and were they viable? The official line is to take the message of thiruvasagam to the younger generation who have lost touch with their spiritual roots. Only IR can tell us what the real motive is. I dont think making thiruvasagam in symphony is any way to do that. For starters, there are two unknowns( thiruvasagam and symphony), which makes it difficult to reach a larger audience. Contrary to original claims that it would be made in tamil, english, hindi, german and so on, eventually we ended up making it only in tamil, which severely restricts the range of the product to a few tamil speaking people in tamilnadu and the tamil diaspora, which is not so large compared to the hindi speaking group. Making an instrumental project without music, on the lines of HOW TO NAME IT or NOTHING BUT WIND would have given an international reach. Dont know who gives ideas to IR or if any person has that power to.

Second, once a project has been conceived, it has to be implemented in a professional manner. Once the feasibily and viability of the project has been ensured, a professional approach has to be taken to take the project to its conclusion. Who dealt with this. A Father who has no experience in managing such a project and a bunch of novice fans who have no experience in a project of such scale. It was obvious from this stage, that it would be a roller coaster ride all the way.

Fund raising- This was not at all done in a professional way and i have serious misgivings about the way it was done. I am still not sure why fans should have to fund the project. As somebody said if IR wanted to do this project for self satisfaction ane ego integration of achieving his lifes purpose, he should have funded it himself and it is not a big deal for a man who has earned so much in the last twenty five years( 25lakhs perfilm as suggested by somebody is absolutely over the top. Even top music directors (contemporary)like harris jeyaraj dont earn that much. Yuvan earns approximately 6 lakhs per film) He even donated more than 20 lakhs worth of jewels to his favourite deity.The fund raising was done professionally by some , such as the yahoo groups, where each contributor has been listed and the entire money which has been raised been announced and then handed over to the tamil mayyam. What about the other groups. For starters, i paid more than 500 dollars for the project , which has not been listed till now. I can prove this by my receipts. I can give the list of my friends names who have had similar experiences. The tamil mayyam and other groups keep claiming about loans they incurred for the project. I am baffled by these claims. Throughout the project , nobody said that TIS- USA are getting loans for the project. I think this is the biggest mystery in the project. We were led to believe that TIS_ USA is involved in bringing together people who were willing to donate to the project. At what stage were they involved in the sponsoring of the project. Who did they get the loans from? ARe they willing to publish the guys who gave them loans.


What is the expenditure of the project? Why did it require 1.4 crores. The expenses involved seem to be the hungarian orchestra and other foreigners used in the project. My technical knowledge in music is not adequate, but in my opinion, only POLLA VINAYEN requires a symphonic orchestra. All other songs could have been easily recorded in india. The album does not have such a staunch western classical slant, which could not have been recorded in india itself. Why go to Hungary?Only one song has childish english lyrics. Why do we have to go to New york for his lyric. Even myself could have written the english lyric. And why use the new york guy for sound mixing. I cant see any big necessity for that. AR Rahman and Harris Jeyaraj have incredible sound recording in their albums, which are better than TIS on any day. There is no point in keeping on whining that it costed 1.4 crores. Nobody is going to believe it, unless the exact expenses are listed. I am sure more than 50 % of the project has been funded by fans and sponsors, so u cant keep saying the budge is 1.4 crores. Does the budget include salary for IR and his trips. It would be a big surprise and disappointment if it is so.


There were inconsistences, misinformation throughout the project. There is no time or space for listing all of them. The project date has been postponsed so many times. They were saying IR met kalam one day and he actually meets them 2 months after that. There were claims galore, none of which seem to have materialise, such as the claim of donation of profits tsunami victims. What happened to those?


Initially it was said that they have to go to welgate, because there were no takers. it was clearly mentioned in one of those earlier letters by father or his group that big names did not think the project is viable. Eventually it landed up on welgate. So , who are we supposed to believe. Just because a father or some guys in US accuse IR,it doesnt automatically mean IR is guilty and it does not also mean we are going to believe it.


It is fair to ask the people involved, to give a list of all donors, including the sponsors and how much money was raised. This will enable to find out where it went wrong.

It is a big shame that the project is called a loss. No project in recent times, including movies got as much unanimous publicity as TIS got. The media and celebrites endorsed it unequivocally and the sales was unparalleled. No non film album in recent times has received so much warmth and support. The sales record should be published to confirme if it is really a loss and if it is a loss the blame should completely fall on tamil mayyam and other guys who were involved who failed to use such goodwill and publicity.

The Fathers letter seems to be suggesting that IR should be adored for his music rather than for his financial dealings. I am not prepared for accepting this verdict. It has to be proved that IR has done something wrong. He may have, but equally he might not have and everybody is presumed innocent until proven guilty. For me the needle of suspicion points exactly to the opposite direction of IR . It is for these people to clarify their positions. If there are loopholes in the contract, it is the mistake of the guys who signed the contract. It is a different matter if IR has violated a contract. But if he is just doing what is in the contract, how can we blame him. It is very implicit in the fathers letter that IR is doing things according to the contract.


My conclusion, although not completely based on solid evidence, but putting together what is in public domain is that the project surprised everybody and did far better than expected. So there is lot of money available. Sharing the spoils has become the bone of contention and everybody seems to be pointing the finger at the other person


Mere barking and expletives wont make me change my opinion. Sane and rational arguments are welcome. The whole project is a good case study for everybody who wants to know how a project should not be done.


>>>>>>>>
Even top music directors (contemporary)like harris jeyaraj dont earn that much. Yuvan earns approximately 6 lakhs per film)
<<<<<<<<

You are hopelessly out of sync with the TFM Scene...I am told HJ charges almost a crore and yuvan charges 40-60 L.....you meant 60 L right ;-)

[rajdes]

vijayr, there is no point you and me discussing this further. I guess we have done what we can given our buying capacity and gifting capacity. I also guess we have put our views in enough detail. Lets bury it.On the whole, "pitham thelinja sari" for the affected parties.

I just want to put one thing - I dont worry about fans who want to sue IR. If they think IR has cheated TM and it bothers them, I WISH THEY SUED IR. Proof of pudding...

njv, just for argument, oru padathukku 25 Lakhs vaanginalum, avaru buvva, petrol idhukku ellaam selavu pannanum. Tax kattanum. Adhu poga micham dhaan projects-la invest panna mudiyum ;-).

[njv]

njv, just for argument, oru padathukku 25 Lakhs vaanginalum, avaru buvva, petrol idhukku ellaam selavu pannanum. Tax kattanum. Adhu poga micham dhaan projects-la invest panna mudiyum ;-).
okay, lets say he does 10 movies in a month, to make up 2.5 crore. Thats not my point. my point is IR did dedicate himself on this for 2+ years and i cant believe he did this for the money. may be he wanted to cheat Fr than making money. I can believe that, but it cant be the other way around.

[njv]

You are hopelessly out of sync with the TFM Scene...I am told HJ charges almost a crore and yuvan charges 40-60 L.....you meant 60 L right ;-)

All MDs pay came recently and triggered the tax dept to raid their house. Here is the list

ARR - 90
HJ - 80
YSR - 50
VS - 40
Bhardwaj - 30
IR - 25 (for the last decade)

Rest of them make between 10 to 30.

6 Lakhs... hmmm may be TV serial MDs might be making that.

[rajdes]

njv: point taken. We can only keep speculating. Majority opinion here is that IR's past record (as indicated by articles across the web)indicates that he is well capable of cheating and Fr.'s past record implies he wouldnt cheat. I dont know what aspect of IR's past record made them conclude that way - I havent heard of any dishonest financial transactions by IR.
You've got to be media-savvy. Otherwise, indha maadhiri samyathula you will be hung without a trial.

[rajdes]

btw,
"may be he wanted to cheat Fr than making money"
idhukku enna artham?

[kj]

I think IR has been cunning and business minded. This cannot be equated to cheating. Ofcourse its unfortunate that a person who potrays himself to be seeking divinity is business minded too.

[tmrrmt]

I find the whole thing absolutely murky - if we go by what Fr.Jegath says, then it is inexplicable as to why IR turned down a name like SONY, which would have fetched popularity, marketing and a definite sales figures several light years further ahead than what has been achieved with Welgate!

All along, most of us were under the belief that Sony and other companies had turned down the offer and that is why Welgate was roped in - but after reading Fr.Jegath's letter, I am stumped!

if it was to make money only, all that IR would/could have done, is release an absolutely modern sounding album with Shankar Mahadevan, Sonu Nigam, Shaan etc and got the same released big time - for IR's calibre, composing such an album would have taken less than a day's time!

therefore, money here is not the objective - definitely, IR's desire for creative ventures, has always been burning and this is the prime motivating factor

but, getting some non-descript company like Welgate release this, while a big name like SONY had already agreed to release the same, makes me wonder, if this has to do with the weird eccentricities of a classic GEMINI (zodiac sign), which IR is!

[Shankar]

>>>>>>>>>
for IR's calibre, composing such an album would have taken less than a day's time!

<<<<<<<<<

Madhan,
I agree with most of ur arguments except the one above....I have never seen Raja come up with an album in recent times, which could appeal the masses such as "machan pEru madhurE..." (VS) or "thirunelveli halwada.." (HJ) or songs from the albums released by ppl like amit sana / abhijeet sawant...Pls note that I am NOT saying they are GREAT compositions...Its just that Raja CANNOT / WUD NOT come out with such an album.

I have never listened to any recent album of Raja which sounds modern. ONOK, COA all of the suck big time (kAtril varum geethamE is a good song....But definitely not a great one...We expect more than this from Raja)

[Shankar]

>>>>>>>
All along, most of us were under the belief that Sony and other companies had turned down the offer and that is why Welgate was roped in
<<<<<<<

I too thot SONY had turned down the offer....I am not going to comment / take sides until we have concrete evidence for the accusation.

[tmrrmt]

Shankar, hmm, sigh! how I long for something like "adiye" (Neengal kettavai) from IR !

[rajdes]

shankar, madhan: several dynamics are in play here including IR's desire to do a high-calibre album like TiS. There has been talk of IR having a bad experience with SONY over the RPO Symphony #1(madhan, you were the one who did some research in this direction 2 years back). That might have biased IR against SONY. In general, IR could - and I would bet a week's salary of mine on this - be generally indisposed towards smooth-talking executive types, the kind SONY I am sure employs in thousands and the kind most likely to interact for such business discussions. Welgate on the other hand might have been a bunch of novices who however dont come across as cunning to IR.
This is speculation but these are some of the dynamics that could be in play.
But what will happen here is
1) People with a hate for IR seize this opportunity and inuendo that he planned and executed this cheating exercise - IR is 100% black appadinnu vaadhiduvaargal.
2) Blind fanatics of IR would ofcourse claim the other extreme.

Truth is ofcourse somewhere in between, like the cliche goes.

[app_engine]

I think it would be constructive at this juncture to come up with a "CURRENT wish list" from all well-wishers of IR/TM/TIS-USA (means DF'ers)...and if possible, also with an "Action plan towards achieving the wish-list objectives"...

This list and plan could be a dynamic one, means undergoing changes, as more information gets published and facts are made available. (There'll be nay-sayers, obviously, hopefully not many though. If such postings come up, kindly try to ignore as it'll only result in pages of useless discussion and no results)...

To begin, I tried to put together a brief wish-list:

1. For TIS-USA
a) Not to have any financial burden i.e. if any loans, that should be repaid.
b) If any inventory, to be liquidated (both to reclaim space and possibly help objective 1a)
c) Get due recognition from IR for their efforts in the project, probably through a media communication to that effect.
d) TIS-USA to come out with the loan info.

2. For TM
a) Once again, not to have any loans.
b) Have access to accurate (and truthful) sales figures, both in territories in India and abroad.
c) Collect their share as per these figures, which should help 2a
d) Have at least a 50% say in any further sales contracts being signed up, at the minimum till 2a is achieved.
e) TM comes up with complete details as to donors, sponsors, sales commission etc so for as also the details of project expenses, interests paid etc and show how much more is needed.

3. For IR (I assume he has absolutely no financial problem because of this project but probably got some money, though not equivalent to the filmi compensation for the amount of time spent...and it's a fact that he gained immense publicity in the media which kind of revived his name among TN masses again)
a) To clear his name from this controversy - either by correcting any unethical business practice or by helping out the financially affected TM/TIS-USA by some future promotional methods (if the correct sales figures of TIS / newer territories of sales themselves does not pay back)

Now the tough part, action plan for DF'ers.

1. Come out with ideas to get the whole controversy to IR's ears and encourage him to act positively to avoid further mudslinging.
2. Come out with innovative plans / helps to liquidate TIS-USA stock
3. Encourage TM to publish the details.

Hopefully there'll be a bunch who'll agree with this approach...

[kj]

but whoz gonna do it...esp convey wats happening here to IR

[vijayr]

"if it was to make money only, all that IR would/could have done, is release an absolutely modern sounding album with Shankar Mahadevan, Sonu Nigam, Shaan etc and got the same released big time - for IR's calibre, composing such an album would have taken less than a day's time! "

and no one would have bought it, considering the zilch market he has for such stuff these days. The album had to be special, somewhat creative, appeal to devotees(who are large in number) who will buy irrespective of musical quality, need to have enough pre-release hype(with spiritual messages like last birth etc. ) and so on. TIS met most of these. I am not saying that TIS was made just for money, but I dont agree with those who say that if IR wanted to get money he could have easily done run-of-the-mill stuff in a day with popular singers. He doesnt have the market for such stuff anymore. If he had done something along those lines it would have met the same fate as COA or TTLS (with neither Rajni or Vaiko coming forward to promote such albums).

[app_engine]

kj,
That's why the immediate action plan is not to actually communicate to IR...but to "throw ideas" as to how to reach his ears...

And before even bothering with him, it may be easier to persuade TM to give transparency to collections - expenses info...(I think TISK has posted earlier in this thread that TIS-USA is going to publish theirs shortly on the tis-usa.com; why not TM also do a similar thing?)

[app_engine]

In other words, why not focus on easier objectives (means keep moving with those who can be contacted easier than the "not-so-easily-accessible" IR)

And IMHO, eliminating the financial burdens of TIS-USA / TM is more important that attempting to `clear-up' IR's name...(at least from the POV of this thread)...In any case, few web postings are not to change much the mixed-reputation of IR for 25 years...

[app_engine]

Sorry to make this stereotyping statement...thamizhanukku maRadhi adhigam...(proof - the fall and rise of JJ & the many falls and rises of MK)

[njv]

btw,
"may be he wanted to cheat Fr than making money"
idhukku enna artham?

Tamil movie pakarathu illayaya. either Fr's father cheated IR's father so IR is cheater Fr or pona jenmathu pagai. I mean if IR can make money simply by rehasing his previous tunes and that too probably more than what we would have got from TIS dealings, then my gut feeling is that

1. IR really wanted to work on TIs
2. End up giving all movie assignment and focused on TIs
3. At the time of completing TIS, realized that he lsot some money!
4. Cheated Fr.

[njv]

I find the whole thing absolutely murky - if we go by what Fr.Jegath says, then it is inexplicable as to why IR turned down a name like SONY, which would have fetched popularity, marketing and a definite sales figures several light years further ahead than what has been achieved with Welgate!


Why would he, specially since they messed up 1st symphony. So the obvious choice were Saregama (known for classic recordings). Other choice would have been T Series, with their largest CD distribution network in the world (yes world!) - but they would rather have some street guy singing for them and make them popular (Anuradha paudwal!) than making less from legends.

Whats clear is that IR did found some new shortcut to make money out of TIS. Whats not clear is why he did that, specially considering the fact that he has completed "ThIS life".

I am saying if he really cheated Fr, he will have rebirth and will be born as a son for SrikanthDeva/Imman/Dhina.

[pro20035]

What is the point of going on accusing IR? I dont understand what purpose it is going to serve. First of all , nobody knows what the true version of events is. The most sensible thing to do is for the involved parties to discuss issues with each other, with a mutually acceptable arbitrator. Venting out feelings in a discussion forum is barking at the wrong tree.

[sats]

kj,
That's why the immediate action plan is not to actually communicate to IR...but to "throw ideas" as to how to reach his ears...


If this mail from the father reaches the likes of CharuBala and Gnani they will have Gala time with this.

[app_engine]

sats,
I always believe in approaching a problem with a view to solving it...and if it's impossible to solve, at least not to aggravate but to alleviate the pain to the extent possible...neenga solradhu, "theeyai aNaikka petrol ooththaNum"ngaRa mAdhiri irukkungO...

In any case, tis-usa.com is a public domain website and charu, gnani, x,y,z can always view it...

[sats]

app_engine,

"Kalagam pirandha dhan Nyayam" kedaikum. What iam pained is all this talk of if i dont do this work i will be born again to do this etc etc from IR . If this was true he should not even be bothered about monetary benefits out of it. Spiritually he has gained what he wanted aprom yar adhe distribute panna ivarukku enna.Legally whatever he has done might be okay , but ethically very wrong.

[cry_sandiego]

<What is the point of going on accusing IR? I dont understand what purpose it is going to serve. First of all , nobody knows what the true version of events is. The most sensible thing to do is for the involved parties to discuss issues with each other, with a mutually acceptable arbitrator. Venting out feelings in a discussion forum is barking at the wrong tree.>

Pro,

That's what i tried saying in many different ways..but that got interpreted as being indifferent/Critical to TiS-USA and being a IR Fanatic. I am not sure why, as I still believe TiS-USA/TM did a great job in help bringing out TiS, but i guess logistics ( or the lack of it ) probably led them into some sort of ( financial ) trouble.

Cheers
MSK

[prabhudas]

If I say Tendulkar is a jerk that doesnt tarnish him. Its just my opinion, thats all. Its like someone saying here that IR is god or a saint. We dont question him or ask him for proof, thats just his opinion.

Aaaha...
that's exactly right, nobody wants to call the person an Arse H..just because he called Tendulkar a jerk on the same note what makes somebody to label ones who say IR is God or Saint (or for that matter even say no wrong doer until proven otherwise) as Fanatic, as mentioned by u it's just individual person's opinion about the artist/player/celebrity in question but to label these individuals as this and that, I don't know what to say...



What is the point of going on accusing IR? I dont understand what purpose it is going to serve.

Well , it's simple, Non Accuser of IR = J(alra) to IR
Accuser of IR = boo...(non jalra) to IR
:lol: :lol: :lol:

[thops]

//Venting out feelings in a discussion forum is barking at the wrong tree.//

didnt you just do this !!!! not that there is anything wrong in it...i actually think this is actually one of the primary uses of this forum...think about it...where else can you vent your frustrations (about anything) without any real consequences :-))...

[vijayr]

"as mentioned by u it's just individual person's opinion about the artist/player/celebrity in question but to label these individuals as this and that,"

well just like how in that individual's opinion IR is a god, in my opinion(and several others') he might be a fanatic. Simple. (what do you mean by "labelling"?)
Its just an expression of opinion, thats all. I am not going to feel sorry about it, especially when you are proud of calling yourself a IR fanatic. Just like this:
"People call us FANATICs but we are not LUNATICs like the ones who call so"

see, you have "labelled" them as lunatics too. It works both ways.


"but to label these individuals as this and that, I don't know what to say"

dont say anything. This discussion is over.

[kj]

isnt it possible that if someone lets IR know whats going on...(he might know about the financial plight stuff but not know that his image is taking a bashing in the hands of his own hard-core fans...) and he might come forward to help TM and TIS-USA financially. I dont think it would be a big deal for him. On the other hand it is possible that he just doesnt care.....knowing very well that this whole issue wont have any impact on his fans love for his music?

Does any one know about this man close enough to comment. Is he really so shrude n cunning and has no humaneness in him?

[alwarpet_andavan]

<Digression>
Heard IR's assistant Sundararajan passed away last week. Can anyone confirm if this is true?
</Digression>

[Bala Ramasamy]

Yes, Mr. Sundararajan passed away last week after a brief illness. He was 70.

Before joining IR, he was assistant to V Kumar and during that period got to know IR.

When IR made his entry and after some time, he requested Mr. Sundararajan to come join his team. Since then for the past 20 years Sundararajan was with IR.

He was fully incharge of the voice section and for most of the songs it was he who sat with the singers and got the voice mixed. Normally the next day IR will listen to these tracks and approve. Mostly without any change.

But off late Sundararajan was in a bad shape and not in a very happy frame of mind. All because of the volatile nature of his boss....who has really started behaving like a boss. So he had to face lot of insults and heart burnings.

He was admitted to Apollo and to take the body out they had to pay about Rs. 2.5 lacs...and Viji Manuel took care of that.

Of course, IR also paid Rs. 1 lakh to the family. But it was too little too late.

He should have done that when the man was alive and kicking.

But then his priorities in life has always been different.

You can not expect normal human behaviour and reactions there!

[zz]

Bala : oh..God...


May God rest the departed soul in peace.

[app_engine]

Digression
Bala Ramasamy, a question (since you seem to have some industry connection):
Who is responsible for the paycheck of artists like Sundarrajan? Is it the movie producer or MD? I read somewhere that the salary of MD includes the expenses for `his crew' and he in turn has to organize instrumentalists etc., with the exception of just the lyricist & the singers. And who pays the recording theatre's expenses for songs / BGM?
End-digression

And Bala Ramasamy, again since you seem to have some connections, can you please look at the "wish-list" that I posted yesterday and do something about the "action-plan"?

Thanks.

[vijayr]

I might be mistaken but wasnt Sundarrajan there on the live show too conducting a song? This is sad. His voice is the one that starts off Potri paadadi poNNE in devar magan. I believe he has sung a few other songs too. He appeared in the TIS programme on SS music channel and came across as a very down-to-earth person.

[rajasaranam]

Digression
Bala Ramasamy, a question (since you seem to have some industry connection):
Who is responsible for the paycheck of artists like Sundarrajan? Is it the movie producer or MD? I read somewhere that the salary of MD includes the expenses for `his crew' and he in turn has to organize instrumentalists etc., with the exception of just the lyricist & the singers. And who pays the recording theatre's expenses for songs / BGM?
End-digression
Thanks.

The Producer of the movie is responsible for the Paychecks of all the MD's crew. MD's Salary is exclusive of these expenses- like Payment for his crew aswelas recording theatre fees.

Vijayr,

Yes he is the same person who was seen on stage in the 'Live show'. A down to earth and charming personality who was the backbone of Raja's Team of singers - who organized, arranged and conducted Raja's notes to the T and was able to deliver those evergreen songs.

Sad to hear his sudden demise. And here too I find it difficult to digest that Raja was not of much great help to him when he was alive :cry:

One of my singer friend has the Harmonium of Mr.Sundararajan sold as a second hand piece a couple of years back. He treasures it like anything saying 'Raja itha thottu irukaaru'. Though it seems like 'Keladi kanmani' Air pillow :) Ithu madhiri neraya rasigargal Raja mela veri-anboda irukaanga.....aanaal Raaja?

Hmmm... Oru Manidha vaazhvin Mathippu 1 latcham Verum Kallin mathippu 27 latcham

Vaazhga Raaja valarga avar piravi payan.

[sats]

Hmmm... Oru Manidha vaazhvin Mathippu 1 latcham Verum Kallin mathippu 27 latcham

Vaazhga Raaja valarga avar piravi payan.

Rajasaranam,

You are hurting the sentiments of lot of people with loose comments like this, once before you called Shiva as a ganja addict and now this. What is just a Stone for you might not be the same for another person. so refrain from making sweeping statements like this about very sensitive issues.

[rajasaranam]

sats,

It need not hurt you too much If you are really in belief with something. If you are Halfway It surely will hurt. Iam sorry If it hurts too much :)

[sats]

Rajasaranam

I dont want to start another confusion here, i take your smiley on a positive note. Half way into this into that pathi ellam i can talk to you offline.

[elfmaniac85]

Guys/Gals,

When there is an accusation, there is a simple simple simple rule.
The mediator has to listen to both sides before deciding who is right & who is wrong. Seems that many here immediately jump to conclusion on what ever things ppl post here out of the blue. Not forgetting many websites carry unsubstantiated articles & rubbish & such. Not forgetting some ppl can create a new ID here & can come in to pour out their venom on IR or just about anyone.

My advice
DON'T waste time until you hear from BOTH the horses' mouths.

Meanwhile, don't forget why you are in this forum in the 1st place....... juz carry on & enjoy listening to music.

[rajasaranam]

Not forgetting some ppl can create a new ID here & can come in to pour out their venom on IR or just about anyone.


Wondering Who this is :? created a new ID on October and This is your first post :wink:

Anyway Let me Give you all a song By Our Raaja which can be enjoyed any time anywhere :thumbsup:
http://rapidshare.de/files/7791019/Manipoor_Maamiyaar_-_Rasiganae_En_Arugil.mp3.html

[Shankar]

Digression
Bala Ramasamy, a question (since you seem to have some industry connection):
Who is responsible for the paycheck of artists like Sundarrajan? Is it the movie producer or MD? I read somewhere that the salary of MD includes the expenses for `his crew' and he in turn has to organize instrumentalists etc., with the exception of just the lyricist & the singers. And who pays the recording theatre's expenses for songs / BGM?
End-digression
Thanks.

The Producer of the movie is responsible for the Paychecks of all the MD's crew. MD's Salary is exclusive of these expenses- like Payment for his crew aswelas recording theatre fees.

Vijayr,

Yes he is the same person who was seen on stage in the 'Live show'. A down to earth and charming personality who was the backbone of Raja's Team of singers - who organized, arranged and conducted Raja's notes to the T and was able to deliver those evergreen songs.

Sad to hear his sudden demise. And here too I find it difficult to digest that Raja was not of much great help to him when he was alive :cry:

One of my singer friend has the Harmonium of Mr.Sundararajan sold as a second hand piece a couple of years back. He treasures it like anything saying 'Raja itha thottu irukaaru'. Though it seems like 'Keladi kanmani' Air pillow :) Ithu madhiri neraya rasigargal Raja mela veri-anboda irukaanga.....aanaal Raaja?

Hmmm... Oru Manidha vaazhvin Mathippu 1 latcham Verum Kallin mathippu 27 latcham

Vaazhga Raaja valarga avar piravi payan.

RS,
When someone is being accused, let's give him the benefit of doubt till he's proven guilty....I am not questioning the veracity of Bala's stmts, All I am saying is, how can you take a completely unknown person's stmts as the truth and make stmts like "oru manidhanin vAzhvu 1 L kallin mathippu 27L"....I've heard from ppl like sundararajan himself and viji manuel about Raja's nature, and they were happy being with Raja, and they have no reasons to lie...If i were you, i wud wait till every relevant info is avbl before making any judgement.

I've been ignoring the posts of ppl who have not been involved in the TiS project in any capacity (excep that they have "donated" some money - the term isn't valid anymore) but were jumping at every oppurtunity to say "i"ve heard Raja is this...I've read in some tabloid Raja is that" etc....However, you were the person who opposed mr. Kiru's reaction about Raja's music, and now you've done almost the same thing.

[elfmaniac85]

Wondering Who this is :? created a new ID on October and This is your first post :wink:

yes it's a 1st post but no need to worry....it doesn't carry venom 8-)

[rajasaranam]

Shankar,

where in I've reacted the same way as Kiru???. Iam Still listening to Raaja and Raaja Alone. none Can replace him in that aspect. As far my other comments - ignore them as a mis-informed soul's blabberings. There are many people including HCIRF's like my friend who i mentioned in the earlier post have close associations with filmdom and Comes telling me tales about IR which cannot be ignored altogether.
Ellathukkum Proof irukka Proof irukkannu Kaettuttu irukka mudiyadhu. We come to analyse and deduce somethings with available knowledge and form an opinion. But by your analogy I should also Believe JJ is clean - no proofs, court has acquited her. So let us all celebrate JJ for being the porkalam kanda puratchi thalaivi. Can you agree??? I can't .
In case of IR there are clear prima facie Evidences pointing fingers at him. Though hard to digest somethings I have heard about IR are bitter. I'll be the happiest person If proven wrong.
BTW I stopped many pages back talking about TIS issue for I came to know- that Iam prejudiced and have formed a definite opinion about IR. And also because the parties concerened TM-TISK are never going to come out in open to challenge IR.
This Late.Sundararajan's Issue just irked me again :huh:
Iam finding fun in happily Digging out Some Rare songs of Raja and my latest addition is the one I've given the link for.
Hope you and others enjoy that Song as always. :)

[rajasaranam]

Wondering Who this is :? created a new ID on October and This is your first post :wink:

yes it's a 1st post but no need to worry....it doesn't carry venom 8-)

But your second post does :shock:
Iam afraid Some body helppppppppp..............

[kiru]

guys..guys hold on a sec..I just told I feel sad to pick a IR cd and play that is all. I never said I will not listen to IR again. My whole music collection revolves around the music of this man..I have lots of CDs and LPs..My stereo system on which I have spent a good amount of money (atleast for me) is meant mainly to listen to IR collection.
Anyways, I am with rajasaranam on this retirement benefit for an ex-employee. Man..1L is a pittance these days..my dad who used to refer to 1 lakh as 1 rooba now uses that term for 1 crore :-)..
My stance is very similar to that of rajasaranam..my vociferous response is a culmination of lots of things I have heard over the years..This TIS thing was just the last straw. Also, you will see rajdes, rajasaranam...using the term 'prima facie' ..that term pretty much summarizes it.

If you have noticed my posts, I always mention I am a fan of the music of IR ..not IR fan. I even have pointed some case of inspiration much before than anybody else here (for eg. Dalapathi song 1st interlude is a pure Mahler inspiration)But I have also defended some non-musical actions of IR, because I felt that is one way of running your career. I shouldn't have done that too in hindsight. I should have just stuck to analysing and appreciating his music, which I still think is much superior to other MDs music in India in musicality/technicality and emotion. I would say this music collection is something that would be difficult for me to replace with something else.

[thumburu]

RS, You may be a fan or not a fan of IR's music. That is fine.
But it doesn't warrant you to cast aspersion on a person's character.
Saying some cliched statements like "I have sources in film field who said blah blah about IR" . Atleast Iam not going to buy such loose remarks.Even I have sources who tell a different story . So?
This free for all mudslinging is going too far. Did IR hold a pistol on Sunderrajan's head to stay put with him? Let us desist from speculating about film field dynamics.
Ellarum ore kuttaiyil ooriya mattaigal be it IR or ARR or Kamal or Rajini.

[thumburu]

//Dig
Kiru , idhu thaan saakkunnu ungaLoda IR collectionai naan suttudalaamna nenaichen . En aasaila maNNaa? :((

[Shankar]

RS,
Pls check your PM...

[zz]

>>>Ellarum ore kuttaiyil ooriya mattaigal be it IR or ARR or Kamal or Rajini.

Why drag ARR here??? Can't any discussion on IR be with out ARR???. mention of ARR in your post clearly shows how psycologically are you disturbed by all the posts on IR...

Your post mentioning ARR with few others was to convey that IR is no different from these people. Just because IR is receiving brick bats now, you should not pull other names to cussion IR.
IN what way is ARR similar to IR in terms of not supporting his subordinate. If you know any secret or insde story, I would like to here that.

Well come on...make it public with authentic references or leads.

Summa...thevai illama...do not drag an other gentleman's man...in that case no human being is perfec...why single out only these three..

[thumburu]

What is so sacrosanct about ARR? Isn't he from filmdom too? I was just quoting names of those who have crazy fans . What do you or me know about ARR or Kamal or Rajini or IR apart from their work ?

[raja_fan]

That old man Mr.Sundararajan was speaking in the TIS promo in SS Music.
Anyone who saw him on that programme wouldn't suspect anything like he was wounded by IR etc..A section of media has been always bashing IR..so I suspect these kind of news to be the creation of these media..

I have heard that actor Ramki, Ramarajan etc were taken care or provided financial assistance by IR, when they suffered losses..So I cannot think that IR is a hard minded genius who is blind folded to anything else than music. If so, you will not see such a large number of people in the industry behind him even after years of his entry..If IR is so cruel, how can people still work for him for more than 20 years in his orchestra.., when there are so many options available in the field today..?

[zz]

>>>What is so sacrosanct about ARR?

Not knowing what is so sacrosant about ARR doesn't mean that he does not have such a quality. We cannot generalise people on filmdom. In that case Kamal is awomeniser, is IR to a womeniser or if I say so will you all spare me??

See, there is a very delicate discussion going on t=in this IR treads, everybody is watching many are from opposite camp too. I myself is an ARR fan and I did not hide that...but still neither I not any of AR did not come and create trouble here even though the situation is ripe. In such a delicate situation if you pass such comments then it might ignite fire some where and once again a nasty fight might begin as the one happend years before when Baba was released...only thing is this time IR thread will be the victim. what I say is just a plain talk of facts by a fan, of good music ,who really enjoys the peace between the two sides.

[njv]

If IR is so cruel, how can people still work for him for more than 20 years in his orchestra.., when there are so many options available in the field today..?

:thumbsup:

[rajasaranam]

I have heard that actor Ramki, Ramarajan etc were taken care or provided financial assistance by IR, when they suffered losses..So I cannot think that IR is a hard minded genius who is blind folded to anything else than music. If so, you will not see such a large number of people in the industry behind him even after years of his entry..If IR is so cruel, how can people still work for him for more than 20 years in his orchestra.., when there are so many options available in the field today..?

raja_fan,

I too know about this. Even in some Kumudham Issue Ramarajan mentioned that IR helped him Monetarily when He was in financial struggle. And there are many more Cases where we find IR never caring about money and doing his work, helping others. But definitely there are some stray cases where IR seems to be cunning, money minded etc.,
IR seems to be a perfect split person wherein He goes to the extreme of magnanimity in some cases and in other cases he keeps himself shut. He is a person who does things as his mood permits. He is really a 'Puriyatha Puthir' :oops: .
As a fan I just want him to be good at all times and I dont want to see any blackmarks on the white board :)

[thumburu]

deleted

[thumburu]

Dig-
zz if you have serious comprehension problem , I cannot help it. Now what is so blasphemous a'out my teaming ARR with other filmy people like Kamal? Have I indulged in any personal attack on your idol?
"Not knowing what is so sacrosant about ARR doesn't mean that he does not have such a quality." - Does it matter to me even if he has? Why should I know a'out IR's or ARR's out of music activities? I care two hoods a'out ARR's or IR's spirituality or lack of it for that matter.

"We cannot generalise people on filmdom. In that case Kamal is awomeniser"
- Now are u a representative of filmdom? it is this kind of yellow journalism discussion that I and many others are against atleast in TFMPage.

[genesis]

Few months back I mentioned some of the IR fanatics are taking IR to the level of God. Some people trashed me out for saying something like that.

Look.... rajasaranam is using Capital "H" when referring IR. These people are not fans, they are devotees of IR.

May IR bless you!!!

[TISK]

I notice that this thread has hit the "100" page mark in this HUB! :thumbsup:

YIA!!

[baroque]

'May IR bless you!!!'

dear genesis,
HE has been blessing us with HIS immortal music for three decades!! There is more to come from HIM!!!

[*]

Why drag ARR here??? Can't any discussion on IR be with out ARR???. mention of ARR in your post clearly shows how psycologically are you disturbed by all the posts on IR...

You are the one who is disturbed here :)

[*]

I am with kiru and rajasaranam on most of the points raised. Though not all of their points, but the general direction of their views. Some of our longtime friends like cry_sandiego, rajdes and others repeatedly stressed the "innocent-until-proven-guilty clause". Nobody accused him of crime. But our postings are only expressing our growing disillusionment with him.

rajdes,
its not as if we were waiting for an opportunity to become turncoats and pounce on IR. Consider what all his fans have done for him. Can you imagine a legendary artist millions of his works were sold, has two of his offspring actively in the involved in the industry and yet getting his fans to raise funds for his project? Do you think any other artist in the world would have such a fan club that even borders on servitude? Even when the artist is putting barely 10% of his heart into his work for over a decade? Honestly, if someone like MSV(I am not taking ARR as he wont even think of such a funding mechanism) had embarked on a similar project, would it have got such an enthusiastic response and eagerness to move all mountains and achieve the aim?

There is only so much IR fans can take. They have put heart and soul in this project, its conception, fundraising, distribution and what not. When IR remains cold and indifferent in the end, certain things need to be re-evaluated.

On another occasion you say that the press seeking out IR to make their mags sell. There are far more unscrupulous ways to make their ways sell, interviewing IR was just one of the many wholesome ways. In most of his interviews(I'm not getting the link now), IR presents himself at a stratospheric level and talks condescendingly. It may not sound condescending to his devotees but nobody can deny the philosophical musings instead of plainspeak he indulges in. Just like some interviews like Adoor Gopalakrishnan who badmouth commercial cinema followers and even called the audience "too stupid" to understand him!

It is precisely this which turns us off.

We are just thinking aloud. There is no need for you to get alarmed and jump to IR's defence or try and correct our pattern of thought. All said and done, our musical preferences are not going to change, only want to focus on what IR does best. :) But we are voicing very serious concerns that if IR does not change his outlook to the media and the general public, TiS will be his last magnum opus and throughout history, it will be remembered with a tinge of notoriety.