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[tscii:1b4f2d924a]
Topic started by R.Srinivasan (srivas34@yahoo.com) (@ ip68-0-198-105.ri.ri.cox.net) on Thu Oct 9 17:55:04 .



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Old responses (http://forumhub.com/tlit/9322.17376.17.55.04.html)

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[tscii:9e68d49c8e]People can you speak english? And can you tell me how to start a new yopic or is it not possible?[/tscii:9e68d49c8e]

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[tscii:1cb475fe51]«Ø측ȡ¨Á :- ¦À¡È¡¨ÁÂüÈ ÀñÒ ... (¦¾¡¼÷)

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1. ÜÃò¾¡úÅ¡÷ ¾õ ÌÕÅ¡É Ã¡Á¡Ûƒ¨Ãô §À¡ø §Å¼õ Ò¨Éó¾Ð ²ý?

2. Áýɧɡ Àì¾ý. ¿¡ò¾¢¸Å¡¾¢ÂøÄý. «í¹ÉÁ¢Õì¸, «Å÷ ̧ġòÐí¸ý «¨Å¢ø ¿¼ò¾¢Â (ºí¸¾ò¾¢ø ¿¼ó¾) Å¡¾¢ø ¾õ ¿õÀ¢ì¨¸Â¢¨É Å¡¾¢ðΠŢâ측Áø, º¢Å¿¡Áò¨¾ì ÌÈ¢ò¾ §¸Ä¢ô §Àø ÒÌó¾Ð ²ý?

3. 'º¢Å º¢Å ±ýÈ¢¼ò ¾£Å¢¨É Á¡Ùõ' ±ýÀ¡÷ º¢ò¾÷ ¾¢ÕãÄ÷ ¾õ ¾¢ÕÁó¾¢Ãò¾¢ø. «§¾ ¦À¡ÕÇ¢ø ÀÃÁ À¡¸Å¾Ã¡É ͸ô À¢ÃõÁâ„¢ ¾õ À¡¸Å¾ò¾¢Öõ À¡Ê¢ÕôÀРŢÂôÀøÄÅ¡? «¨¾ ±í¹Éõ ÁÈó¾¡÷ ÜÃò¾¡úÅ¡÷?

4. 'ÀÃõôÃõ† ÒÕ„õ ìÕ‰½ À¢í¸Çõ' ±ýÚ Á¨Èš츢Öõ, '±ýÚõ þÕÅÃí¸ò¾¡ø ¾¢Ã¢Å§ÃÛõ ´ÕÅý ´ÕÅý «í¸òÐÇý' ±ýÚ À¢ýÉ÷ ÓЦÀÕõ ¦À¡ö¨¸ ¬úÅ¡Õõ, '±ý¨ÈìÌ þÃñÎÕÅõ ´ýÈ¡ö þ¨ºóÐ' ±ýÚ §À¡úÅ¡Õõ §À¾õ ¸¼óÐ À¡Ê¢Õì¸, À¢Ã¢ì¸¦Å¡ñ½¡ ºì¾¢¸Ç¢ø ´ý¨È ¯Â÷ò¾¢ ´ý¨Èò ¾¡úòÐÅÐ ¾ÌÁ¡? ¾í¸ÙìÌ «Ð ²üÒ¨¼Â¾¡?

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'¿¡Á¡÷ìÌõ ÌÊÂø§Ä¡õ, ¿Á¨É «ï§º¡õ!' ±ýÚ «È¢Å¢òÐô ÒÈôÀð¼ «Å÷, ÁýɨÉÔõ ÁüÈ ¦ÅȢ¨ÃÔõ ±¾¢÷ ¦¸¡ñ¼¦¾ôÀÊ? ¾õ ¬úó¾ À쾢¢¨É, ¿õÀ¢ì¨¸¨Âì ¦¸¡ñ¼øÄÅ¡?

Íñ½¡õÒì ¸¡Çš¢ø «Á÷ò¾¢Ôõ, «Ð «Å÷ À¡Ê 'Á¡º¢ø Å£¨½Ôõ' ±ýÈ «ÕðÀ¾¢¸ò¾¡ø ¦¾ýÈø Å£Íõ ¦À¡ö¨¸Â¡ÉÐ. ¸ø¨Äì ¸ðÊì ¸¼Ä¢ø Å£º¢Ôõ '¦º¡üÚ¨½ §Å¾¢Âý, §º¡¾¢ Å¡ÉÅý' «Ê ¦À¡Õó¾ò ¦¾¡ØÐ ¿¢ýȾ¡ø «Ð×õ ¦¾ôÀÁ¡ö Á¢¾óÐ ¸¼æ÷ ¦¸¡ñÎ §º÷ò¾Ð. ¸¨¼º¢Â¡ö ¬¨É¸¨Ç Å¢ðÎ Á¢¾¢ì¸î ¦º¡øÄ¢Ôõ «ïº¢ ¿¢øÄ¡Áø ¨¸ ÜôÀ¢ '¸½À¾¢ ±ýÛõ ¸Ç¢§È!' ±ýÚ À¡Ê ¿£ þÕì¸ '«ïº¢ÂÐõ þø¨Ä, þÉ¢ «ïº ÅÕÅÐõ þø¨Ä' ±ýÚ ÓÊì¸, «Å¨Ã Å½í¸¢ô À¢ý ¦ÅÌñ¼ «ó¾ ¬¨É¸û ±ïº¢Â ºÁ½¨Ãô ÀøÄÅ¿¡ð¨¼ Ţ𧼠ÐÃò¾¢ÂÐõ ÅÃÄ¡üÈ¢ø À¾¢× ¦ºöÂôÀ𧼠¯ûÇÉ.

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[tscii:3993e2a8a6]¦À¡öõ¨ÁÔõ Å¡ö¨Á¢¼ò¾.... (¦¾¡¼÷)

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[tscii:3246316548]http://www.valaippoo.blogspot.com/[/tscii:3246316548]

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"¦À¡öõ¨ÁÔõ Å¡ö¨Á¢¼ò¾" .... ¯¾¡Ã½í¸û ... Òá½ò¾¢ø-1

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þ¨ÈÅý-¦¿È¢ôÀÊ ¬¨½§ÂüÚ «¨ÉòÐĨ¸Ôõ ¸¡ìÌõ ¸¼¨ÁôÀ½¢ ¦¸¡ñ¼Å÷¸§Ç §¾Å÷¸û ±Ûõ ÌÚ-þ¨ÈÅ÷¸û. «ñ¼ò¾¢ý þÂì¸ò¨¾ ¿¢÷Ÿ¢ôÀ¾¢Öõ (Decentralised management of the Conduct & Operation of Universe) ¯ÄÌ Å¡Æò §¾¨ÅÂ¡É ¸¡üÚ, ¦¿ÕôÒ, ¿£÷, ¿¢Äõ... §À¡ýÈ þÂü¨¸-¦¿È¢î ¦ºÂøÀ¡Î¸¨ÇÔõ ¸ñ¸¡½¢ôÀÐõ (Monitoring the functions of Nature) «Å÷¸ÇÐ Ó츢ÂÁ¡É À½¢Â¡Ìõ. §ÁÖõ ®§ÃØ À¾¢É¡ýÌ ¯Ä̸ǢÖõ Å¡ú ¯Â¢Ã¢Éí¸û ´ù¦Å¡ÕÅÕìÌõ ¿¢÷½Â¢ì¸ôÀð¼ Å¢¾¢ôÀÊ ¦ºÂøÀÎòÐÅÐõ «ó¾ ÓôÀòÐ ãýÚ §¸¡Ê §¾Å÷¸Ç¢ý ¸¼¨Á¡õ.

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À¢ýÉ÷ «ÍÃÌÕ Í츢áâ¡ÃÐ ¬ýÁ£¸ ÓÂüº¢Â¡ø §¾Å÷¸¨Çì ¸¡ðÊÖõ «ÍÃ÷¸û §Á§Ä¡í¸¢Â ÅøĨÁ¸û ¦ÀüȾ¡ø «Æ¢ò¾¡Öõ Á£ñÎõ Á£ñÎõ ¯Â¢÷ ¦ÀüÚò ¾í¸ÇÐ ÅýÓ¨Èò ¾£î¦ºÂø¸¨Ç ¦Áý§ÁÖõ «¾¢¸Ã¢òÐ즸¡ñ§¼§À¡É¡÷¸û «ÍÃ÷¸û. þ¾É¡ø §¾Å÷¸û ƒÉò¦¾¡¨¸ §Å¸Á¡¸ «Æ¢óÐÅÃġ¢É÷.§ÁÖõ «Å÷¸ÇÐ À½¢¸Ç¢Öõ ¾¼í¸ø¸Ùõ ¾¡Á¾Óõ ²üÀ¼Ä¡Â¢üÚ.

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¾ì¸ À¡Ã¡ðÎì¸Ùõ Àâ͸Ùõ, ¾ñ¼¨É¸Ùõ, ¾¨¼¸Ùõ ±ÅÕìÌõ ÅÆí¸ ¯Ã¢¨ÁÔõ ¸¼¨ÁÔõ À¨¼ò¾Åý þ¨ÈÅý ´ÕÅý. þÐ ¾¡ý þ¨ÈÅý Å¢¾¢ò¾ ºÓ¾¡Â-¿¢Â¾¢... «¨ÉÅÕìÌõ ¦À¡ÐÅ¡É Å¢¾¢Ôõ ܼ.

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[/tscii:8257189096]

[RR]

An article on Thirukkural & Thiruvalluvar:

http://www.hindu.com/fr/2005/03/11/stories/2005031102210300.htm

[NVK Ashraf]

ஆங்கிலத்தைத்தவிர, பிற மொழிகளில் திருக்குறளை மின்வலையில் காண்பது மிக அரிது. விரைவில் குறளை 10 மொழியாக்கங்களில் (French, Russian, Arabic, Hindi, Bengali, Malayalam, Gujarati, Kannada, Telugu & Punjabi) மின்வலையில் காணலாம். ஏற்கனவே ரஸ்ஸியன், ப்ரெஞ்சு, இந்தி, மலயாளம் மொழிகளில் டைப் அடித்துவிட்டேன்.
As far as I know, only Russian translation is available in full on the net. Please let me know if you come across Kural translation in any other language.

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

'' Ulaga manidarin manathinilae marakka onna vedham"- The one sacred / holy book that should not be forgotten by world human beings is Thirukkural.

f.s.gandhi

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

What is knowledge ? ' Arivu enbathu Yathu ?'

What Thiruvalluvar says ?

Can anybody quote from KURAL ?

I think noone in the world exactly pointed out this other than Thirukkural.

Dear friends think it over and tell your views.

f.s.gandhi

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear friends,

Valluvar says, '' Muyarchi mei varuthak kooli tharum'' - means trying will make you success.

In another kural valluvar says,'' Uzhil peruvali yaavula''- means nothing can be above destiny or fate.

It seems the above kurals are in contradictory in their absolute sense.

When muyarchi is superior in first kural destiny is superior in another kural.

Can anyone explain what valluvar means to say to the masses ?

Kindly think it over.

f.s.gandhi

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear friends,

I hope whoever 've seen my previous queries regarding 'valluvam' shall undergo brainstorming in this session.

I welcome your views regarding that.

Meanwhile I pose you the important aspect nowadays in society for which 'Sennappothar' gave solution.

World people always have spritual and religious associations throughout their life. In very much eager to know the life secrets and its occultism they always believe holy things which can not be explained through scientific analysis but can be supported by scientific results / facts. People tend to become more fond of religiousity all over the world.

There are different religions which have their own dress codes and facial modifications.

They have their own theory to support these codes.

Valluvar talks about these codes in his kural. Certainly in his time also these codes existed. Can we define common code for all them ? What valluvar says ? Can anybody quote from Thiruvalluvar ?

Dear friends think it over.

f.s.gandhi

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear friends, :)

I hope that You are all thinking over my earlier messages in this thread.

Take up thirukkural,read and try to infer the kurals.

Now I pose you one more contradiction in kural.

'Inna chaitharai oruththal - Nannayam chaithuvidal' - means when anybody harms you do good to him.

On the other hand valluvar says,' Than valiyum,Thunaivaliyum, Matran valiyum Thookkich chayal- an advice to the man that when you think about your victory think about your ability,your brethren or relations or your persons' ability, enemy's ability and his persons' ability before attacking your enemy.

In one kural Maathanupanki says,'Dont attack'- In another he says, 'Attack but carefully'.

It seems to be contradictory. Is it not ?

Think over my friends. Express your views. :lol:

f.s.gandhi

[Sudhaama]

Dear Mr. F.S. Gandhi,

Thank you very much for raising wise points of debate in a highly worthy sense of Human- values... as inherent in our Great immortal Thirukkuralh

At the same time...I am sorry you have FORCIBLY converted this TAMIL-THREAD... especially under Tamil-Lterature Section... (I initiated this Thread in Tamil... and further am conducting so... all along since the past about 3 years)

While I realise your difficulty in posting Tamilo-Fonts... but is it so UNSURMOUNTABLE... For your information... I too had the same difficulty...and I LEARNT IT ONLY AFTER JOINING THIS TAMIL- FORUM.

if you have a Will to NURTURE TAMIL-LANGUAGE... truly conforming to the Scope of this Forum

.... You will not find it IMPOSSIBLE... may be Difficult..

I radically concur with Mahakavi Bharathi..."Why Tamilians should converse and correspond in a Foreign Language.... when they know Tamil also well?... a BEAUTIFUL RICH LANGUAGE... deserving to be protected? If this Trend is allowed to persist... all Tamilian Children will FORGET AND REJECT TAMIL... as an Unworthy Cheap- Language....

... culminating in making Tamil another DEAD-LANGUAGE?

I have got a lot to say in reply to you ... in an interesting manner to all conveying the DEEP true- spirit hidden behind Thirukkuralh.

But I will come out ONLY AFTER YOU RESUME TAMIL-POSTINGS in line with this Thread- principle....

Sorry... I hope you will not mistake me.... When there is a WILL there is a WAY.!!

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear Thiru Sudhaama, :!:

I beg your pardon for my inability to write in tamil. :)

Kindly give me some (more) time to learn tamil typing. :)

I find one positive element in writing in English in these threads which may induce you to get angry towards me.

We have enough literature stuff in tamil literature. Here we are reproducing it. That's all.

The thing is we have not sufficiently popularize these literature.

Modern tamils who are residing out of tamilnadu can be able to know about tamil only through these kind of media like computer.

Already tamils have neglected tamil in higher studies and now reached their horizon out of tamil usage.

Hence again if we force them to learn tamil they will hesitate.

Instead if we tell them the significance of tamil through common language there is a chance of tamil learning increase.

Veeramamunivar, Dr.Galduwell learnt tamil in this way.

Rabindaranath Tagore got accredition by noble prize only after he translated his verses from Bengali to English.

My writing in these threads are 'theme' oriented.

Your tamil writing is flawless,rhythemic,unique,versatile and very much attactive in nature.

We may strike a balance. I use to dig something.

You please give your views in beautiful tamil.

We make this arrangement till I learn tamil typing.

Convinced ? :)

Kindly bear this and continue with your notions :!:

f.s.gandhi

[solomon]

Tirukural stands as a showpiece of Human Civilisation and teaches the 21st Century Comman Era man, what a Secular Literature is.

Friends I WANT you to analyse the dating of Tiruvalluvar.

Certain Scholars dated it to BCE8000, G.U.Pope to 800C.E. and Vaiayapuri Pillai dated to 7th Cen, and with Manimekhalai dated around 200CE, Majority dates Tirukural to 100CE.

Still Scholarly Disucssion continues.

Readers must look this aspect

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear Thiru Solomon, :)

Kinldy under this column do not talk about history. :) Thiru Sudhaama who intitiated this topic will get angry. :!: This is the thread to talk about thirukkrual verses and their meaning. Kindly discuss history in relevant column.

Anyway, Thirukkural - 100 CE carbon dating proof is there. That is correct.

We need not talk about Thiru Vaiyapuripillai’s theory. He neither analysed the pattern of old poetry nor the time specified in the literary works. His views are vague and nothing seems to be correct in interpretation. :(

For example, There are several ‘Avvaiyars’ from 0CE to 1000 CE. He interprets that there is one ‘Avvaiyar’ which proved wrong in history. :o

G.U.Pope did translated works and it seems that he did not analyse historic perspective of tamil poetry. :(

f.s.gandhi

[solomon]

Hai-Madan, noramlly answers questions and lot of questions on Science and History are answered and looked by Readers as well Researched.

Latest Issue has a question by reader about using Tiruvalluvar Era- instead of using BC and AD i.e., KI.PI & KI.MU.
And Madan answers that all the tradtions on Tiruvalluvar are Pelas-lies.

Friends- the Truths are:
a. The dating method of BC/AD is dropped morethan 50 years back, and several Bibles I have and All encyclopedias use only BCE AND CE- i.e, Before Common Era and Common Era.They can be Va.Mu. and Va.Ka. referrting Varalarru Kalam and Varalarru Mundaya Kalam.
b. The detail on Jesus Christ are highly unreliable and date and year of his birth and death are not known.
Gospel of Matthew- Mary- Wife of Joseph, Son of Jacob from Bethleham was the mother of Jesus and this Jesus is 41st Generation from Abraham.
Luke' Gospel tells ; Mary-Wife of Joseph, Son OF Heli from Nazareth was the mother of Jesus; and this Jesus is 57th Generation from Abraham.
Matthew gives a date of BCE 6 OR 7 as birth Year,
Luke gives a date of CE 8 as Brith Year.
But the Genelogies of 16 Generations makes them live 400 years apart.
c. None of the sources of Jesus Life and Teaching are written by any Contemporary Eye Witnesses- Britanica Encycopedia.
Tiruvalluvar as per majority Scholars is dated to 100 BCE OR Earlier, for example Devaneya Pavanar dates him to 2nd Century BCE or Earilier. Certain Scholars fixed a rough date of 31BCE as Birth Year and this Tiruvalluvar Saga-era is used by many Tamil groups.
VIKATAN- OR ANY Leading Magazines should COMMENTS ON Tiruvalluvar must be done carefully, the missionaries like CALDwell and G.U.Pope dated him to 8th Cen, CE and this Wrong Chronology made Dr.Vaiapuri to date Tiruvalluvar to 700 CE. Later using Manimekhalai Schloars in middle of 20th Cen dated Tirukural to 100CE.
Mylapur SANthome Church Archbishop Arulappa funded a Major Project, a twin project:
1. A Re-interpretation of Tirukural as a Christian book by mis-reading the Tirukural and Manipulating Bible Verses was done and said that Tiruvalluvar was given Bible by Thomas the Apostle of Jesus who came to Mylapur.- One Dr.M.Deivanayagam got P.hd. from Tamil Christian Dept. funded by ArchBishop- saying Tiruvalluvar was inspired by Thomas and Saiva Siddhantha Literuature is from the inspiration from Bible.
2. Archbishop funded on Acharya Paul- around 15 lakhs in 70s, took him to Vatican, Europe and America and Tried to Fabricate Manuskripts of Tiruvalluvar-Thoma Connection. This ended in Court Case and That Paul was allowed to retain the House he bought from Church Money- by a out of court Settlement.
The Pity is we donot have any evidence of ANY Thomas coming to India, even a person of that name is doubted my Modern Biblical Scholars.
Refer
www.hamsa.org


Vikatan must have been responsible, Stories on Jesus were more Doubtful than that of Tiruvalluvar
MosesMohammedSolomon

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear Thiru Solomon, :)

The claim by various religious groups that Thirukkural belonging to them itself specifies that Thirukkural is common to all in the world.

Jains, saivas and Vedhics also claim that Thirukkural is belonging to them.

I want to bring to your notice that the 'flood story' of Nova in Bible specifies the 'Big KADALKOL (tsunami)' happened during prehistoric period. Nova escaped through 'Marakkalam' (KATTUMARAM) to Asia minor.

Now Turky's tribes stories reveal that they came from south probably from south India.

Language connotations proves that. I have earlier talked about this in separate thread.

Anyway let us wind up this discussion here & continue under relevant topic. :!:

Don't you see Thiru Sudhaama comes with great Stick ? :lol:

f.s.gandhi

[Idiappam]

Don't you see Thiru Sudhaama comes with great Stick ? :lol:

Hahahaha!

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear friends, :)

Nowadays people seem to be more interested in amassing money. They don’t want to have some ethics in accumulating the money.

‘Survivial of the fittest’ is their basic rule.

World people also use ‘Diplomacy’ in dealings and the sole pupose is overruling / acquiring money / power through even unethical means.

Amassing money is thought to be the happiness attaining process of most people.

Whereas the monks of various religions stress the need to abandon money in order to have happiness.

On the other hand without money untold sufferings of poor men prevails everywhere.

How can we come out this confusion state ? We should have money at the same time we should have happiness.

Money – happiness combination is focused as enemy to enemy combination and we will not have happy by this combination.

Dear friends, :!: Try to explore from ‘Thirukkural’

Valluvar should have some plan for this. :!:

f.s.gandhi

[solomon]

I love Kural because, it teaches big teachings in just 7 words.

Piravip Perungadal Ninduvar......

WhAT A WONDERFUL Kural.

Man' life is less than 80 years on average, and Trees and Tortoise and Elephants live longer. And Mountains and Seas keep Growing for Milleniums.
Every Person born crooses his Life-time and dies, and certainly Valluvar does not call this as Ocean, and Pirave- cannot mean your Generations- such as Children, GrandChildren and GreatGrand Children. Every Soul looses its body when a Man dies, but the soul gets another body, MaruPiravi, and Piravi continues again and again- As all waters reach Ocean, all Living born again and again.

To get away from this Ocean of Births, only way to get away is to ged to the feet of the God.

Longlive Kural and let us spread it.

MosesMohammedSolomon
PS: FSG -Can you kndly link me to the Carbon14 datings for Tiruvalluvar and its interesting.

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear Thiru Solomon, :)

Samples of carbon dated palm leaves can be got from 'Saraswathi mahal libruary' in Thanjavoor. It carried out during 19 th century British rule in India.

Regarding 'thirukkural' -Piravi -I want to add some more things.

'Azhu pirappum Aamappu udaiththu' - clearly specifies 7 birth of man to the earth.

Hence this 'piravi' is not continuous uncounted way. 7 births are defined not only in inthu saiva Akamams but also in Vedhic as well as in other Inthu upanishaths.

This is called as 'karmam / karma' in Inthu belief and followed in tamil nadi astrology written by Akaththiyar from time immemorial.

7 is a holy no. in occultic numerology. There should be 7 continents in world.

There should be 7 oceans in earth.

There should be 7 wonders in world.

Buththar was born on 25th. Adding 5+2=7. Jesus and Mohammed were born on 25th. Sankarar, Maththuvar, Ramanujar Who also were born in this 25th.(Mummoorthikal of Inthu religion)

The flower 'Thaamarai' which has seven leaves in front is the place where Buththar / saraswathi / lakshmi cult is always made as seated.

7 is holy no in Bible. 7 days, 7 influencing planets are used for determining one's astrological calculations.

Three major religions of today which were influenced by ancient belief have their theories in the following way.

1.God is one.

2. Other great men will be born in the earth as 'Thoothuvar' / Avathaar to perish when Atharma prevails.

3.Belief in rebirth.

Mr. 'Chero' a famous England professor proved the rebirth by analysing the history of France kings. 14th Louie was reborn after 700 years and the happenings / important incident matches with the 18th century louie and the 11 the century 14th louie.

f.s.gandhi

[solomon]

TIRUKURAL TALKS ABOUT Pirappu and Kudi, repeatedly , and its the core of Tirukural.

He further says, Desire is the route of births, i.e. Desire forces you to sin, and sins make you to born again.

Valluvar further adds, One should Desire, if at all for - Piravamai, all other things would follow.

EluPirappu, though may denote 7 in the first isght, it must be understood as Elumpothellam Pirappu, Unless you are Sinless and catch the feet of Divinity you cannot attain it.

MosesMohammedSolomon

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear Friends, :)

I earlier asked What valluvar says about 'Arivu'.

Let us look into that.

Arivu is defined as knowing all about world , subject , science etc. By knowing something itself will make ‘arivu’ ?

Valluvar also says by having arivu you will get anything in life.

A thief seems to be having more ‘Arivu’ than ordinary man.

A smart politician who amass wealth seems to be having more knowledge than ordinary person.

A leading country like America which created arms race in the world seems to be having more Knowledge.

A developing country like India which has lot of priests seems to be having more knowledge.

A diplomatic mission which induces mutual benefits between any two countries eventhough they adapt certain form of treacherous attitude seems to be having more knowledge.

Eventually ‘survival of the fittest’ / More knowledge knowing and suppressing other seems to be more smart / knowledged and fittable to live.

But what valluvar says regarding knowledge is wonderful.

He didn’t quantify the knowledge. He talks not only for human beings but also ordinary other organisms in the world.

Valluvar inadvertently poses that having knowing the thing only is not a knowledge.

But how it is being used in the world is knowledge. Even if you get small knowledge of something in world it must be fruitful to the society and the whole world.

In his ten verses under “Ariudamai” Athikaram 9 talk about Knowledge proportions /perspectives and in one kural He defined ‘what is knowledge ?.

‘Chentra edaththaal selavida THEETHU oriee-
NANTRIN PAL ueppathu ARIVU.

In that he says without ‘THEETHU’ which gives ‘NANTRU’ is knowledge irrespective of its quantity or quality.

Let us follow what valluvar says.

Readers are welcome to bring out explanations for other equeries in this thread.

f.s.gandhi

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Let us protect Thirukkural unpolluted.


.. and this thread too!

[solomon]

Tiruvalluvar gives us Duties of Family Man as follows:

ThenPulathar Theivam Virunthu Okkal Than- This order gives us a lot of information.

ThenPulathar- refers Irantha Munnor- Then refered as The Direction of Yaman, i.e., Pithrukal- Even today Orthodex Tamils do not goto Temples for Oneyear if any Close Relatives Die, and Every Month First day and on NewMoon Day They give Tharpanams to Pithrukal, Annual Tharpanam on Mahalaya Amavasai and Divasams are practiced by all Tamils. Next To Pithrukal only is God, then Unknown Virunthinar, Then Family, then self is the order a Family man has to spend his Time Money and Effort.

MosesMohammedSolomon

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

'Then pulaththar' specifies the ancestors who died in 'KadalKol' happened in the south of Kumari.

That is why tamil pray standing in the direction of south.

When tamils wanted to die they sit in north direction.

Yaman was introduced in Vaishnava puranas and that was not specified by valluvar. Infact yaman direction is north.

As all religion claims Thirukkural is belonging to them I think Vaishnavas also believe in that.

f.s.gandhi

[solomon]

I HAVE put across the Kural Thenpulathar Theivam.... and gave its meaning as followed for 2000 years now and FSG SAID'

Then pulaththar' specifies the ancestors who died in 'KadalKol' happened in the south of Kumari.

That is why tamil pray standing in the direction of south.

When tamils wanted to die they sit in north direction.

Yaman was introduced in Vaishnava puranas and that was not specified by valluvar. Infact yaman direction is north.

As all religion claims Thirukkural is belonging to them I think Vaishnavas also believe in that.

We are discussing what Thiruvalluvar said and not 20th century Rationalist Tamils myths. Now morethan 80% of Commentaries used in last 1000 years all refer the meaning of THENPULATHAR- AS the Direction of Koorram or Yemen, that is Our Dead Ancestors, i.e,Pithrukal and showed the customs followed by Many Tamil community, not necessarrily of Brahmins alone. Now FSG ignores all Old Commenteries and Quotes Meaningless Suppositions of 20th Cen, Rationalist and their myths. So using Commentators is of no use. Let us analyse Sangam Literature to Silapathirkaram, and for our reference.

Purananuru song 91 says-
" Then pula valnar Karunkadanirukkum
Pon pol Pudalvarai Perathavarai"
This song tells that while Going to war, Youngman who have not got their Male Children to perform Thenpula valnar kadan are exempted from Participating in WAR. A Son performs his Thenpula duty for his father and 2 further past Generations as per Tradition. So Young men without Son to carryout this duty if he dies are exempted.
After death for Marumai, these Criais are to be done and some Offerings as Gifts are given to this date and Puram 232 and 234 and Silapathikaram 15 talks of this.

So to say some thing which Tiruvalluvar said, by twisting it that too Rational myths is twisting Tiruvalluvar, and this is done with clear Tendentious Motives, and these type of work got Frauds to write Tiruvalluvar-Christhuvara? etc.,

Let us see only What Valluvar Said and not their views.

MosesMohammedSolomon

[Idiappam]

Realy Solomon, I have been trying to post a reply to you for 3 days but I can't. I just don't understand what you are saying.

I know you are discussing the Kural 'Thempulathaar...'. 'Then' means 'south'. 'Thenpulathaar' means 'dead ancestors'. Tamils bury their dead at the southern part of the village (or towns). Therefore 'thenpulathar'.

The direction of 'Yaman' - you mean 'Lord Yama'??? I won't say that is south. But do you have any information on that direction from any puranas etc you have read.

Mr Gandhi, has pointed out that the 'Yama' concept came into place during the Puranic Period of Vaishnavam. Most of the puranas being written in the South - in Kerala, many Great Vaishnavites (of the Northern School - vada Kalai) were born there!

But from where Valluvar was sitting, and viewing the place of Yama in Kerala, I would say that the Direction of Yama should be approximately 'West ten degrees North'.

I don't know why, Solomon, you chose to zoom in on this Kural, perhaps you feel that this 'Thenpulathar' is not a Tamil Idea, but Vedic. Someone told you so?? Certainly this Kural did not come from the Vedas. But this Kural was copied 'word-for-word' in one Sanskritic Work that was written wome 400 years after kural.

Read the ManuSmriti. There are about 50 Thirukurals included there. Some Archaryas are of the opinion that these are later inclusion the the Smriti.

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear Solomon, :)

Rationalists don't believe such things. And Thenpulaththar won't be included in their dictionary.

My point is, Kootram,Kottram,Kootruvan and Pithir, Pithar have common meaning.

But 'Thenpulaththar' is somewhat different in meaning.

When 'Kootruvan' and 'Pithir' relates one's own ancestor that is His grandfather 'Thenpulaththar' signifies common ancestral worship that prevailed in tamil culture during sankam period.

'Nadukal' worship was there from time immemorial for every person's family ancestral worship.

That is why I told that Thenpulaththar siginifies the ancestors who Plunged into 'Kadalkol'.

In silappathikaram

"Vadivel Erintha vaan pakai porathu
Paguruli Aatrudan panmalai adukkathu
kumari kodum kodum kadal kolla-

first line signifies the meaning that When Pandyan attacked on south the sea attacked on battle fielders and the one who not completed the worship to thank the battle fielders drowned in sea won't be allowed to take part in another fight.

Hence 'Thenpulaththar' worship didnot end with one's family but extend society as a whole of sankam period.

f.s.gandhi

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

I would say that the Direction of Yama should be approximately 'West ten degrees North'.


I could not curb my laugh :lol: :lol: Hahahahahaha :lol: :lol:

Excellent Idiappam. :lol:

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear Friends, :)

I have earlier talked about contradictory kurals of valluvar that "Muyarchi Thiruvinai yakkum" and "Uoozhir peruvali Yaavula".

One is encouraging -the another one is discouraging at first instance.

But valluvar's motive is not to discourage us. His perspective is Encourage in both the situations.

He revealed to the men how to handle / manage two type of situations. These two situations happen in everyone's life.

When we try hard we will get the fruit. Hence try untill our death is the message. Certainly a result having fruitfulness will come.-is one situation.

Suppose we are not getting anything even after more trying-What we have to do ?- is another situation.

Valluvar says,"Do not get fear. Do not get discourage. After all destiny is strong. Do not stop trying".

In both the situations valluvar teaches us to follow level headed mind positively to solve the situation and live without having dejected feelings in the world.

Let us follow valluvar's positive approach.

f.s.gandhi

[solomon]

[tscii:fedcc100bc]Manatu Ulathu Pola Katti Oruvaruku
Inathu ulathu AakumArivu. -454
Valluvar, clearly tells a truth, Eventough One' mind Operates on his own Knowledge, but The Mind Deceives him and thinks as per the Associations (or Books he reads) of friends He has.

The Explanations given by FSG, This fable of 4th Cen, not explained till date and we have literature from 3rdBce to 20th Century And let him give Ilakkiya Proofs and also explain what all came in 4th Century.

ThenPulathar- being refered as Pithrukal is referred for more than 2000 years, and this Kural is in First Aadikaram after Kadavul Valzthu, called Ilvalkai- and Tiruvalluvar gives the duties of a family man to his Family, and NOT GENERAL mourning but why then this new meaningless New interpretations, leaving out all Historical values. Many Scholars wrote like this in 20th Century, pulling
Tiruvalluvar to be like a 20th Cen, Tamil School Teacher.
Idiayppam- Your Comedian role provoked me to think on Valluvar-He would certainly have written thinking on the reader or hearer, and that they could be in America or Arabia- and he should confirm the Indic- Tradition, I quoted Puram, A young man without Son's ThenPulathar Kadan can't be done. So it always means Pithrukal, when THen Means South in literal sense- The Indic Tradition is the direction of Kooram and Valluvar who had no hesitation on using Aathi- used ThenPulathar. Appam- You said Vedas as 600 BCE, now you go to 400CE fable and Tiruvalluvar's above Kural is proved and he is a Saint.

One such, is PanmozhiPulavar Appadurai- He took the Word- Pirappu- EluPirappu and Twisted it to mean as Generations and wrote new Meanings, which means Appadurai, Wrote new Kural and not Commentary for Tirukural.

And all his approach by 20th Century Scholars, was very useful to the Church, which funded Dravidian Religion Founder as FSG called Dr.M.Deivanayagam to write, I Quote-“ Thomaiyar Moolam Perra Narseithiyam Arathai, than Arasiyal Paniyil Irunthu Petrra Arasiyal Arivam Poruludan, Than Ilvazhvin Adithalathil Vilangkiya Inbathodu Sernthu Tamil Soolazil Muppalaka Mozhintullar.- Page 173,
Tiruvalluvar Christhuvara, and
Appadurai’s interpretation on Pirappu helped this work mainly, as Christianity does not believe in Births and Rebirths.

Deivanayagam. Went on to continue and got P.Hd, saying Tirukural and SaivaSithantham are derived from Bible, later his Daughter- to Tamil Bakthi movement was inspired by Bible and another Disciple saying Tamil Vaishnavism derived from Bible, and lately Another Disciple getting M.Phil saying Muruga Worship is inspired by Jesus worship.

We need to look at Tiruvalluvar as what he said and not what U want to interpret for your Tendential purposes. I give here various views of Leading Tamil Authorities on these Deivanayagam’s work and also Interpretting Tirukural wrongly.


"Dr. Deivanayakam Gets His Due 1
R.S. Narayanaswami
A controversial book written by a Christian drew strong criticism and attack from eminent Hindu scholars at a function in Madras on October 24, 1991.

The book titled Viviliyam, Tirukkural, Shaiva Siddhantam Oppu Ayvu, written by one Deivanayakam, 2 was published in 1985-86. It attempted to compare Bible, Tirukkural and Shaiva philosophy and concluded that Tiruvalluvar was a disciple of St. Thomas and that his sayings were only sayings from Bible. The writer had attempted to distort and misinterpret the Shaiva Siddhanta to suit his conclusions that all these works emanated from the preachings of St. Thomas who is said to have visited India in the first century A.D.

It was given to the Dharmapuram Math to issue a refutation. In spite of refutations from scholars through personal letters, Deivanayakam was unrelenting. Hence the Dharmapuram Shaiva Math had a book of refutation prepared by its very able Tamil and Shaiva scholar, Arunai Vadivel Mudaliar, and released it at a function.

The function organised by the Shaiva Siddhanta Sabha, was not very well publicised yet it had a gathering of over three hundred Tamil and Shaiva scholars. 3 The hall was packed to capacity. Justice N. Krishnaswami Reddiar, retired high court judge, presided.

Tamil and Shaiva scholar M.P. Somasundaram, who made the opening speech, deplored that in independent India freedom and rights were being misused to such an extent that books denigrating the ancient religion of the land were allowed to be written. He said the Christian book was a bundle of distortions, misconceptions and misinterpretations of Tirukkural verses and Shaivite philosophical works to suit the conclusions of the author-namely that Christianity had influenced Tiruvalluvar and the Nayanmars. The book was mischievous in content and aim, he asserted. He commended Arunai Vadivel Mudaliar and the Dharmapuram Math for bringing out a refutation.

Justice Krishnaswami Reddiar strongly criticised the modern tendency of publishing trash in the name of research. He said research must have an aim, a purpose, to get at the truth. Research was not meant to find evidence to denigrate an ancient faith. Research should not start with preconclusions or prejudices. Here the author's motive was to show the superiority of Christianity. Religion was based not only on facts but also on faith and beliefs. The book had hurt Hindu beliefs.

Justice Krishnaswami Reddiar quoted from the works of Sita Ram Goel and Ishwar Sharan and asserted that the visit of St. Thomas to India was a myth. He wondered how could such a book be published by [the International Institute of Tamil Studies, Adyar, Madras,] set up by the Government. It was a crime that such a book had been written and published and awarded a doctorate degree [by the University of Madras,] he said.

If such books were not refuted our progeny would find fault with us; and such books would pass as source material for future researchers. If there was no refutation, then such books would be accepted as telling the truth and would be used for further religious propaganda. He praised the Dharmapuram Math for taking pains to release the book of refutation.

Sarojini Varadappan released the book of refutation. Swaminatha Thambiran of Dharmapuram Math said the Math Head had, by personal correspondence with Deivanayakam, tried to put the facts straight. But he was unrelenting. Then a conference of scholars was held at Dharmapuram to which Deivanayakam was invited. Though he was present, he stood his ground. Then only, the Head of the Math decided to prepare this book of refutation and release it.

Dr. R. Nagaswami, eminent archaeologist, who had done some excavations at Santhome Church along with a Jesuit, quoted profusely from the writings of Jesuits and exploded the myth of the visit of St. Thomas to India. It was a Portuguese ruse to spread Christianity in India. He said Deivanayakam had taken the visit of St. Thomas to India as an established fact and, based on that, built his theory and conclusions. The fact was St. Thomas had not visited India at all. According to the evidence available, and books on St. Thomas, he had visited only Parthia, Dr. Nagaswami said. He said it was a sad reflection on the Institute of Tamil Studies which had published this book. It was shameful that Madras University had awarded a doctorate for this book without going into its merits.

Vidwan Ambai Sankaranar said that the award of doctorate to the author of the book must be withdrawn as the author had not adduced any evidence as to how Tiruvalluvar was a disciple of St. Thomas. Vidwan Sundara Murthi pointed out how the Tirukkural verses were misinterpreted by Deivanayakam.

T.N. Ramachandran said chronology had not at all been taken into consideration by Deivanayakam while comparing the works. Had he been a student of St. Thomas, Tiruvalluvar would have mentioned it, he said.

Vanniyar Adigal said such books were being published taking advantage of the tolerance of Hindus and the liberty and rights given in the Constitution. He said a book by a Muslim showing the superiority of Koran over Tirukkural had also been published some years back. It was time for the Hindus to take cognizance of attacks on their doctrines, beliefs and sacred books.

Eighty-five-year-old Arunai Vadivel Mudaliar, the author of the book of refutation, 4 who was honoured with a silk cloth and cash presentation, said that an attack on his faith was like an attack on his mother and that compelled him to refute the book of Deivanayakam.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 Originally published under the title "Tamil scholars assail Christian bid to misrepresent Tiruvalluvar as St. Thomas" in the Organiser, November 7, 1991, New Delhi.

2 Dr. M. Deivanayakam and Dr. R. Arulappa have worked together on the christianization of Tiruvalluvar and the Tirukkural. In 1975 they co-authored the book Perinba Villakku in which Tiruvalluvar is represented as being Christian.

3 That this important conference of Hindu scholars was not reported in the Madras editions of The Hindu and Indian Express is very revealing of the editorial policies of these newspapers.

4 Unfortunately Mudaliar's book has not been named in this article."

Thanks to www.hamsa.org
Let us view Tirukural of what Valluvar said, and read all books with Generalised
outook, Not Highly biased Tendentious Scholars and keep ourselves Superstitious.
MosesMohammedSolomon.
[/tscii:fedcc100bc]

[Idiappam]

Solomon said:

Idiayppam- Your Comedian role provoked me to think

Ok, I understand! That you have just started to think, but your thinking is still not up to Human standard - quite inconsistent. Nevermind, keep it up - it will improve. Solomon. Read more of my posts, you brain needs some more provocation to think logically.

Get well soon! Regards,
Idiappam

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear Solomon, :)

You sing the old song repeatedly.

Kindly visit 'Tami is elder to Sanskrit' thread for the my explanations. Here you continue Thurukkural messages and not historical messages.

f.s.gandhi

[solomon]

Tiruvalluvar called Man's Birth again and Again AS PiraviPerungadal and Man' average Life was 47 years during Independence and now at around 70 years and If FALSELY As FSG said as 7 Pirappu- then Kadal becomes meaninless, and Valluvar says in Kural 339:
Uranguvathu Polum Saakkadu Uranghi
Vizhipathu poum Piraappu-
Friends how many times we sleep in our Life time certainly not 7 times. FSG Please donot say something do refute me and quoting Bible etc., here is meaningless.

Tirukural in its enitire 1,300 Kurals have not used the word Tamil at all, it is not written for Tamilar alone for entire Mankind. ThenPulathar means Your Family's Dead Munnor or Pithrukal, THis Kural has been put after 4 first Athikarams onGod worship and ILvalkai- is the name of the Athikaram-FamilyMan's Life. I have given earlier proofs from Sangam Literature, which gives the word ThenPulathar clearly,FSG argued that Tamils dead Seeing VADAKIRUTHAL- Sorry FSG- for somebody who has gone to Thuravu- who does want to Go to Eman's Direction turns to Vadakku- Direction of Himalayas or Kailash and Prey to Reach God' feet and get away fromPiravi pERUNGADAL.

Tirukural was called Souther Vedas-Uthira Vedam and Sangam Pulavar Mangudi Maruthanar says:
" Otharku Elithai UnarthaRKU Aritahi
VETHA Porulai Mikavialnghith - Thetharre....

Tirukural was from Indian Vedic Tradtion and morethan 100 Kurals woudl confirm it and I SHALL handle them all One by one.

Let us live by Kural and Satyameva Jeyathe
MosesMohammedSolomon

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

As I have already expressed every religious / atheist guy of present day claims that thirukkural supports each of them. This specifies thirukkural’s common philosophy. Its “Pothumarai” nature.

In this context we have to look into history circumstances of valluvar days and come to the conclusion what exactly valluvar means to say. During the period of Christianity of Jesus Vedhic rituals were formulated in India. I have already shown vedhic time as 1 st century CE.

Christians, North Hindus and later Mugammathians ARTIFICIALLY created certain beliefs of Heaven and hell from ancient tribal culture NATURALLY prevailed all over the world. The cradle of tribal civilization started in tamil land. Engels called tamil land as “Cradle of foremost civilization”. Iron, Mud urn, Chakkaram and Marakkalam were the best invention of tamils in those days. Tamil worship based on natural gods of five lands and Inthiran and varunan were natural gods.

Natural worship prevailed (praying natural things) in all tribal culture of world like tamils. It turned into artificial heaven gods / hell gods later period. Historiens shows lot of evidences that the three major religions namely Christins, Vedhics (They call themselves as hindus) and Mohammadians were influenced by ancient tribal cultures of natural god worshippers. Buddhists differ from this eventhough they adapt spiritual teachings of tribal culture in the sense that the other three religions follow imaginative purana stories exploiting all tribal culture values.

Kootruvan is from Kootram / Kottram which means nation. When the kings / rulers / forefathers of family died they became gods of people. Nadukal worship thus came into being and we can see it in all pre Christian / Muslim / vedhic cultures like tamils, Egyptian & Sumerian worship. That is the foremost worship. I showed “silappathikaram” lines meant for a king who attacked Meru mountain sea and in turn sea attacked the old kumari kandam kings. “Thenpulaththar” were remembered for their losing life to Sea disaster. That is what Thirukkural specifies. Valluvar’s worship was based on natural things. No rituals specified in Valluvam / in any other sankam literature for death man. Atharvana vedhas contained the rituals portions of death which is of later origin. That too earlier followed by Malayala Namboothiris only.

Dear soloman, I expect from you to show “rituals death ceremony / practice” of sankam literature is as mentioned in Vedhics rituals which you can't do.

Inthiralokam and narakalokam were created by vedhical texts and puranaas in imaginative way. In puranas narakalokam is in south. Does Soloman claim all ancestors went Narakam and so Thenpulaththar worship ?

As per Vedhic mythology Inthiralokam is in east. Sorkalokam is in top. Yaman is in north and faces south is the myth in Vedhas. Human spirits roam something in the middle of earth. All confusions. People tend to have “Vadakkiruththal” towards north to ask Kaalan to take up their breath. What was the practice in Vedhas solomon ? Nothing like this.

Kaalan & yaman are tamil words went to sanskrit at later period. Vedham itself is a tamil word. And whenever Solomon finds Vedham he calls fradulently four vedhams. He coins new word SOUTH Vedham. Where is SOUTH vedham mentioned ? I asked query about Aru marai. No answer is so far. Masilomani questioned to prove four vedhas are marais . Nothing is proved. However Vedhas timeline is only centuries of common era (100 CE).

These Vedhas, Akamams & puranas were certainly influenced by tamil culture only in spirituality and not in Imaginative stories / exploitation of society. For Example Karumam (tamil) / Vedhic karma theory was purely siddha /occulstisc oriented. This occulstism was specified as “Uoozh” in tamil. Silapathikaram or Manimekalai depends on stories on Uoozh. Valluvar also talks this. This “Uoozh” theory’s exploited version is Manusmirithi caste system.

Tamils believed rebirth and it takes 7 times. The Nadi sothidam was based on this only. That is called “Ezhupirappu”. Present Arabian numbers were first invented by tamils. 7 & 9 are numbers specifying holiness and prosperity respectively. In all world ancient culture 7 was used as holy number. Lotus / White malli flower has seven foundation pedals used in nadukal worship Poosai (Pooja). Later on this 7 was taken by vedhics as 7 heavens,7 seas, 7 lands , 7 devas etc. in puraanas.

Days of week was based on this 7. After sometime I may write the occultisc studies of tamils.

“Ezhpirappu” is not put into one birth as Solomon claims and it is 7 different births of same soul after death. “Piravi Perungadal” specifies the eternity of life and it is “Uruvakam”.
Chaldeans & Egyptians followed this. As usuall Vedhics copied this knowledge of tamils and made exploited and inevitable versions of this.

Solomon try his forefather Maxmuller way that Max. used to say prakirt is from sanskrit whereas reality is Sanskrit is from Prakrit. Tamil culture did influenced Vedhic since Vedhic is later but not the exploited version which is to be perished at any cost.

f.s.gandhi

[solomon]

Friends,

FSG twists what is not said by me,

EluPirappu is not Seven, but Several- or Precisely Eluthal Raise - AND I quoted Kural 339, means:
It is like Sleeping is Death- Vuranguvathu Pol Sakkadu and
It is like Birth is like Raising from Sleep- Vuranghi Vilipothu pole Pirappu.

Friends, how many times do we sleep and raise- certainly not just Seven times, and Elu is taken as Eelu(7) is meaningless, and saying Week has Seven Days are nothing connected with it and Twisting Tiruvalluvar out of what he has said, and ThenPulathar finally FSG, says is Direction which Koorram faces, and that is clearly Vedhic Tradition.

Vedas where called MARAI- as it is normally not writtend Hidden- Maraithal- this is because the Vedas are as per Internationally Concluded Opinion of 1000 OF uNIVERSITES, 2000-600BCE, whereas Panini wrote Ilakkanam only in 450-500BCE, and Vedas does have lot of variations and unless you get thru a Guru with Proper Interpretation, you would loose meaning- Hence VEDAS are then Unwritten- MARAI, and we
HAVE on Kural from THIRUVALLUVA MALAI, song by Velliveethiar,

Cheyyamozhikum Thiruvalluvar Mozhintha
Poiya Mozhikum Porul Ondre. Song 23, Thiruvalluva Malai.

Morethan 500 RESEarch papers have analysed and concluded that all References in TholKappiaym, Sangam and Post Sangam Literature are Vedas- Rig Yajur sama and Atarva, and I have given PAVANAR words on this earlier, and I repeat:

" Nalvetham or Nanmarai, Arangam Agamam enbana ellam Arya Noolkale enbathum, Thirukural thavira ippothulla Pandai Noolkalellam Anthanar enbathum Brahmararie Kurikkum Enpathu Sariye."
Page- 102 Tamilar Matham

Now HypoCrisy of 20th Century brought many Fradulant Scholars and few Speculated of Vedas coming from Tamil to Vadamozhi, Friends Give me One Quote from Ancient Sangam or other Literary Proofs and stop posting wrong and Proven Wrong Hypothesis as a big evidence.

Friends, One Neduncheliyan brought about First 4 Adikarams of Kural as Interpolations and FSG wants to Jump on it, and I WOUld take them in my next posting.

Please Read Valluvam from it and not impost your misviews on Valluvar.
MosesMohammedSolomon

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Vuranghi Vilipothu polum Pirappu.

Ezhuvathu & Vizhipathu are different words. Infact Solomon twisted that word for his own wishful thinking. 'Ezhu' means 'Muzhumaiyakath Thondruthal". 'Vizhi" means "kan Vizhiththal". Solomon twists this meaning. One phrase "Vizhithu Ezhuthal" always used in tamil. This shows (Vizhikaamal) Ezhuthal is different from Vizhiththu Ezhuthal. Vedhic blind can not understand this. Who did actually twist ?

I quote from Thiruvalluva malai,

"Kadukaith thuzhaiTHEZH kadalaip pukuththi
Kurukath thariththa kural" -

"Anuvaith thuzhaiTHEZH kadalaip pukuththi
Kurukath thariththa kural"-

Ezhkadal specifies in both the 'Malai's the number seven. I expressed 7 days along with some other examples to show that no. 7 was thought as 'holy number' during olden days. 'Ezhu suram', 'Ezhu ulakam','Ezh Uoozh" were some other phrases used during that time. Valluvar specifies this unlike solomon wrongly interpreted.

I ask the readers to go through any dictionary of tamil to have "Kotram,Kootruvan,Kaalan & Eyaman" meaning and they clearly specify Arasan,Moothathaiyar,Munnor and none other like Inthiralokam or Chandralokam yaman God imaginated by Vedhics.

I again and again told "Krishnan,Inthiran & Varunan" are natural gods of tamil and there is no root in Sanskrit for these words quoting P.T.Srinivasa Iyengar & Ayothidasa Pandithar. These worship were copied with all imaginative stories in Vedhas.

Likewise tamil Occulstism was copied with newer imaginative stories in Chathur Vedhas.

Solomon accepts that Vedhas were not written and its oral tradition presumably told by Vedhics. When alphabets were there earlier than 1st century CE why they were not written before and written only after 1st century CE? Readers shall think it over.

Solomon here conform after written they are not Vedhas as per his wishful presumed meaning of Vedha. Why should we call them as Vedhas?

Vedhas does not mean as Solomon thinks. Whether written / unwritten Vedhas means "hidden things". Vedhic times so far detected by world guys is dependent on their literature namely persian,Egyptian and others. In a haste make up to date back their cultures they date back Vedhas also 5000 / 10000 /15000 years back. They tell one "Nondichakku" that Vedhas had oral tradition and so we can date back without considering their written timeline. Not all,some universities go on this hypothesis and myths


Velliveethiar

Cheyyamozhikum Thiruvalluvar Mozhintha
Poiya Mozhikum Porul Ondre. Song 23, Thiruvalluva Malai.

"Cheyyamozhi" means natural language that is People's natural language. Cheyyaniram means 'eyarkai niram', Cheyyal means 'Thiru makal' (natural god)
Reader can note this in any tamil dictionary.

Hence Cheyyamozhi means people language. "Poiyamozhi" means
marai. Both words are "Eeru ketta ethirmarai peyarechcham" in tamil Grammar. Poiya means Poi (marai) mozhi Cheyya means cheithiyana,Vazhankappadukira -natural language both signifies negative aspect of words as per Grammar.

Hence 'marai and maraivatra' languages are same is the exact meaning.

These kind of words only helps solomon to claim Vedhic. But comparing other comtemporary happenings of history won't support this wishful thinking.

Solomon talks about tamil universities. The thinkers based on tamil are neglected in all universities because they think that all tamil based thoughts are against of Indian intergrity and this is the "INTENSION" backed among all universities.Former tamil university chairman Thiru Nedunchezhian now suffers a lot. Pavanar also suffered because he told that tamil is the ancient language. Now world scholars come to this. Forget about present tamil PhDs. and put all of them into dustbin.

Dr.Thaivanayakam research about Jesus theory in tamil culture is also accepted by these universities. You need not tell about Vedhic frauds accepted by them. Solomon "double tongue" is exibited by this.

Any research mind should question all the things meaningfully no matter how the scholar is famous. New thought shall come out from this. Valluvar specifies this in his "Epporull Yaar Yaar..... " At the sametime We need not undermine any scholar and take their research as basis and should continue our research further to exact conclusion. We should take Pavaanar's view also in this perspective.

We cannot expect this scientific temperament from "Vedha vakku" Vedhics :!:

[solomon]

Friends,

I Look Tamil Literature from Sangam Literature and look for its meanings from Kural only.

FSG posting here is totally meaningless and Unwarranted attacks because he doesnot know Sangam Literature and his completely ignorance is Proved Beyond Doubt, When FSG Read Arumarai as 6Marai, against actually it was with Idaina Ra, i.e., Unique or Special i.e., and God Given as per Tamil Sangam Literature Authors and that is his Level of Knowledge.

What is Vadasol in KURAL, and I Give PAVANAR :

I GIVE here waht Devaneyan has said:
Quote:
"Iyarsol Thirisol Thisaisol Vadasolen
anaithe seiul ittach Solle" -Tholkappiyam Solathi1
Merkuriya Iyarsol Thirisol Thisaisol ennum mundruda, Edaikalaga(Sangaha) Kalathil Puthithai Vanthu Valanghiyaoru sila Vada Sorkal Tamilil Kalntha Ayanmozhi endra vakayil vadasorkal endre Koorap pattana. Akkalathil tamilir Kalantha Ayanmozhi Vadamozhi Ondre. Immuraipadiy Ikkalathilum Tamilir Kalntha Angila sol, Portukesia sol, muthaliavarrai Avvam Mozhi peyalral Angilasol, Portukesiyasol enak kural vendume andri Thisai sorkal enak kooruthal koodathu.
Page 9,10-Thiravidathai

Tamil Only Movement Group went beyond all Truths and accused of meaningless things, which Archealogy and other Proofs have held us today. Every Layer added New Lies and Fsg goes on.

He has not given a Single Proof till date then what is NANMARAI in Tholkappiyam' Payiram, and Sangam Literature. Huge Discussions went on and it was held very clearly as VEDAS by PAVANAR and others. FSG keeps his tales and for that he back dated Sangam Lit. to 200CE etc., Friends Please read the complete thread for checking the number of Times He Ducked and twisted, all in Record.

Now NEDUNCHELIYAN - BrOUGHT another Point - Interpolations- in Kural - First Four 4 Athikarams as Later day insertions, this was first said by Thiru.Vi.Ka., when he was an Athiest, and later he became a Theist, but the old articles remained.

Friends, how to Verify Interpolations-

1.AutoGraph of Author
2. Comparting Earliest Manuscripts.
3. Comparing UraiAsiriyars
4. Internal Consistency.

The Kurals are dated by University Scholars to Ist Cen. CE, say 50CE (my view is it is 50BCE), The earliest manuscript goes to only 16th Cen, or later. Mr.Abdul Kalam recently wanted attempts to get the Oldest Manuscripts. And we do not have many Manuscripts to cross Check.

Uraiasiriars, if earliest had left them then it is possible, we don't have such.

Internal Consistency- PiraviPerungadal and Piravali in Kadavul Valthu is Repeated so many times and (FSG' bluff be forgetten),
that proves that VaLLUVAR HAS written all Kurals in First 4 Adigarams.

EluPirappu- We have some opinion in Bakthi Literature Period-Which says that Every Man- Starts as-1.Plant, 2. bird 3. waterborn 4. Insect-Urvana 5. Animal 6. Human 7.Visumbulor -I quote from Tirukural-iniya Eliya Urai by Mayiai Sivamuthu-Page20.

Certainly Valluvar did not mean this- Death is Like Sleep and Birth is like raise from Sleep, Please do not Pass Hatread words here. Every body has got their views, and I have kept to my views from day-1, and given appropriate Proofs, where as You have been Speculating without any proofs and NO Knoledge of SAngam Lit.

Please look Valluvar from Kural Glass and Not your Anti-Truth Views
MosesMohammedSolomon

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

[tscii:2815c1771e]
FSG posting here is totally meaningless and Unwarranted attacks because he doesnot know Sangam Literature and his completely ignorance is Proved Beyond Doubt, When FSG Read Arumarai as 6Marai, against actually it was with Idaina Ra, i.e., Unique or Special i.e., and God Given as per Tamil Sangam Literature Authors and that is his Level of Knowledge.

Dear Vedhic Solomon, :!:

"Thakkar Thakavilar Avaravar Echchaththark Kaanapadum" is Valluvam. You can not tell this fellow knows this-that fellow knows this.

'Atakkum Amararul Uyikkum" :!: - Artificial pride-Vedhic solomons won't understand this.

You told Naanmarai. I may interpret shortly quoting Tholkappiam. For 'Arumarai' meaning go and visit my posting in 'Tamil is elder to Sankrit' thread.

I made query about Arumarai (idaiyina Ra / Vallina Ra) based on root words. For Example Aruvi & Aaru means same basically and actual meaning somewhat differs. When a river falls from mountain it is called Aruvi. When a river runs horizontally it is called Aaru. Aaru also means no. 6 and 'Vazhi'. All roots lies with 'Aru'.I have already talked about that in "Thinamum oru Vaarthai' thread.

Hence Ra,la in their various forms does not always follow different meaning. Even in poetry Vallina ra may turn into Mellina ra depending upon Ethukai / Monai used and this is allowed in poetry. You yourself eulosize 'literature giant' and you must know it.

My point here is You told 'Naan marai' then why Arumarai used ? Is their six marai since Naan is as 'Nanku' marai ? This is the basis of my question. You could have answered it differently. But you played with vallina / idaiyina type. Any tamil knowing fellow knows this difference and he need not be a literary giant. Infact you don't know the root words research or seems to be like that.


"Iyarsol Thirisol Thisaisol Vadasolen
anaithe seiul ittach Solle" -Tholkappiyam Solathi1
Page 9,10-Thiravidathai- Paavanar

About Pavanar -My answer to this availble with my last post in this thread.


Tamil Only Movement Group went beyond all Truths and accused of meaningless things, which Archealogy and other Proofs have held us today. Every Layer added New Lies and Fsg goes on.

Have you showed any archeological proof :?: . I showed archelogical proof of (1000 -500 BC) urns containing tamil script in Athichanallur. Can you show single proof for Vedhas like that :?:


He has not given a Single Proof till date then what is NANMARAI in Tholkappiyam' Payiram,

I am in foreign country now and I am not able to refer tamil literature. Anyway I have found some online services.I will write about this shortly in 'Tamil is elder to Sanskrit' Thread. My time work load also should permit.


Every body has got their views,

It seems your answer suits this as below.

"Now NEDUNCHELIYAN - BrOUGHT another Point - Interpolations- in Kural - First Four 4 Athikarams as Later day insertions, this was first said by Thiru.Vi.Ka., when he was an Athiest, and later he became a Theist, but the old articles remained."


Friends, how to Verify Interpolations-

1. AutoGraph of Author
2. Comparting Earliest Manuscripts.
3. Comparing UraiAsiriyars
4. Internal Consistency.

Nothing above is available with Vedhaas :!: How do you date it to 1000 BCE :?: / 10000 BCE :?:


goes to only 16th Cen, or later. Mr.Abdul Kalam recently wanted attempts to get the Oldest Manuscripts. And we do not have many ManuscriptThe earliest manuscript s to cross Check.

How many times you repeat this story :?:


(FSG' bluff be forgetten),

I think you bluff something as below,

"Internal Consistency- PiraviPerungadal and Piravali in Kadavul Valthu is Repeated so many times and
that proves that VaLLUVAR HAS written all Kurals in First 4 Adigarams."


EluPirappu-

I quote from Tholkappiam for the meaning of 'Ezhu'
Since Tholkappiam is the oldest available literature in tamil for the word ‘EZHU’ for its clarity in meaning.

‘Kalaviyal -16

……………………………………..Aanku EZU Vakaiyan
Thokai Nilaipetrathu Enmanaar pulavar.

In this the meaning is Seven types.

Cheyyuliyal – 157

“EZHU nilathu EZHUNTHA Cheyyul Theriyan
Adi varai ellana Aaru ena Mozhipa”

Here we can observe that Ezhu is used two times to differentiate the meaning as first one is seven and the second one is verbial expression. If it has meaning as Solomon put forth that “Ezhumpothellam” two times it should not have been used.


and I have kept to my views from day-1, and given appropriate Proofs, where as You have been Speculating without any proofs and NO Knowledge of SAngam Lit

You go on quoting solomon :!: but try to quote truths not bluffs :!:

f.s.gandhi[/tscii:2815c1771e]

[Idiappam]

Solomon, can you please type the tamil text in tamil script - or at least use the standard Romanisation for tamil text - I can't make out what the hell you are trying to say -- irrelavant they may be!

[solomon]

Friends,

I had replied to meaningless interpretation of the following Kural by Neduncheliyan, but my posting was also was not fully correct, and I GIVE clear Meaning as follows:

Kural: Marppinum Ooththu Kollalam Pirappolukam
Kundrak Kedum.

FRiends, I HAD taken- Ooththu As Othu i.e., to read, but I Checked various Sangalm Lexicons and Tirukural Ourais and
Ooththu- friends means VETHAMS- IN Vadamozhi- Vethams are called Sruthi -means "Heard" and Sangam Period it was called as "Ooththu" as always Recited, and What then This Kural means is as follows:
Anthanarkal are called AruThozhlar are called AruTholizar(ARU-Vallina ra- means 6)
and Parpanar, as they wrote Panchangam- Forsee Rains, Climate in advance, and told when to SOW, What Crop and also suitable Dates for Travel etc., and Pirappozhukam for Aruthozil Anthanar- Parpanar is Clearly mentioned in Sangam Literature: from

Pathirupathu

Kelvi Kettu Padivam Vodiyathu
Velvi Vettanai Vuyarnthor Vuvamba
Othal Vettal Avaipirar Seital
EIthal Erral enru Aaru Purintu olukum
Arampuri Anthanar Valimolunthu Oluki. - Their Duties are :
1. Read Vetham and Ara Nool and research
2. Teach those Books
3. Do Vedhic Yagnas and Poojas for self
4. Perform Vedhic Yagnas and Poojas for others.
5. Give Money to Needy and
6. Receive Money so that you can do 5.

So Here Valluvar says, even when He Forgets Vethams- what is read- i.e., Maraikal- You can relearn, but maintain all other Duties, and where here the Nonsense of Interpretation on Valluvar is against Vedas comes.

As Idiyappam has requested I intend to put Tamil Quotes in Tamil and my attempts to download e-kalappais where unsuccessful, and I request anybody to email me mosesmohammedsolomon@gmail.com please.

Hence my detailed postings follows with Tamil fonts, with more than 4-5 Thiruvalluvamalai and other proofs.
MOsesMohammedSolomon

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Vedhic Solomon tries to pollute Thirukkural here :!:

Before going into the meaning of “kural” that Solomon pollutes
we analyse the situation in kural. The above kural is under ‘Illaraviyal’(Family life)and heading is “Ozhukkamudaimai” (Good Conduct).

In Tholkappiam the duties of “paarpaan” is talked in Karpiyal -27. In kalavu and karpu marriage he is the ritual head and this was explained by me in “Tamil is elder to Sanskrit” Thread.

“Kaamanilai Uraiththal(1) Thernilai Uraiththal(2)
Kizhavone Kurippinai Eduththuk Kooralum (3)
Aavodu patta Nimiththam Kooralum (4)
Selavu uru kilaviyum (5) Selavu Azhunku kilaviyum (6)
Annavai Piravum (ethaip pontra piravum) PAARPAARKU uriya”.

From the above we get that to make the hero & heroine mingling each other either in kalavu or in karpu PAARPAAN has to work in the above ways. Later “karanam” (rituals) was made to strengthen this activity.

Hence Valluvar feels fittable to talk about “Paarpaan” under the above Athikaram which is meant for Karpu Vazhkai.

Lets us have meaning of the precedent KURAL of kural that Solomon tries to pollute :

“Ozhukkam Udaimai Kudimai Ezhukkam
Ezhintha Pirappai vidum”- In this Ezhukkam is “Ezhintha Pirappu”

Next kural,

“Marappinum Oththuk Kolalaakum Paarpaan
Piruppu Ozhukkam Kuntrak Kedum”

Some of misguiding guys uses “Ooththu”(nedil O) to mean “Othuthal” to solve their purpose. But it is not so. Kuril “O’ should be used. Both words has same root but here means different. Kuril “Oththu’/Oththal means ‘Ontrakkuthal’/ Cherthuvaiththal / making one. Compare the word ‘Oththaasai’.

Now,

Paarpan Oththuk kolal marappinum – If Paarpaan forgets his duty of making the hero & heroine joining,
Aakum – He can do it again. But,
Ozhukkam Kuntra – If good conduct goes out,
Pirappu Kedum – anyone’s birth in this world(Pirappu) will go down.

My point is there is no necessity of making birth differentiation for Valluvar. From the beginning he talks about Two type of people in the world in all respects like Ozukkamudaiyor / ellaathore, Kalviyudaiyour / Kallathavar.

Valluvar never talks about four varnas.Solomon like Vedhics spread wrong messages about its meaning.

Anthanar is entirely different segment of people and I may write about them in ‘Tamil is elder to Sanskrit’ thread.

I ask Solomon not to confuse Anthanars with Paarpaan.

In ‘Tamil is elder to Sanskrit’ thread I have shown that ‘Chantror’ is not Paarpaan. Valluvam talks in Athikaarams ‘THAVAM,THURAVU,CHANTRANMAI,PERIYARAI THUNAIKODAL,AMAICHU, THOOTHU & CHITTRINAM CHERAAMAI’ about persons who are “Uyarnthore” and who are “Thazhnthore”. There is no significance of ‘BY BIRTH’ caste system.

Valluvar’s ‘Aravazhi Anthanan, Anthanar enbore Aravore’ phrases shows Chantrore. I may write about Anthanars in ‘Tamil is elder to Sanskrit column.

Athikarams ‘KUDI & KUDI CHEYAL VAKAI’ talks about kudi as ‘kudumbam’. Tamils had the practice of nadukal Vazhipadu(kula theiva Vazhipadu). Valluvar refelects this.

Under Athikaaram “Kudicheyalvakai” valluvar clearly states this.

“Edumpaikae Kolkalam Kollo KUDUMPATHTHAI
Kutra maraipppan Udampu”

Vedhic Solomons should stop their non-sense of Vedhic contents :!:

f.s.gandhi

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

I have already showed the meaning of "Ezhu Pirappu"(seven births) which was the belief of ancient tamils quoting Tholkappiam.

I show valluvar's kural once again to strenghthen the above meaning.

"EZHUMAI EZHPIRAPPU Mulluvar Thankan
vizhuman Thudaiththavar Natpu"

Ezhumai - Vinaipayanal piraththal (Parimezhalakar Urai).
Ezhupirappu - Ezhu pirappu (Parimezhalakar Urai)

Thevaneyap paavanar also means the same.

Ezhumai - Pirakkumpothu , Ezhupirappu - Seven births . To differentiate two meanings valluvar & Tholkappiar use two times the same word.

I told earlier in this thread tamil's five epics were based on this "Marumam"- Marupirappu-seven pirappu.

Parimezhalakar shows in his 'Urai' that Ezhu(nedil) pirappu is menstioned in 'Valayapathi' - one of the tamil epics- quoting this kural.

I, myself, want to tell the readers with 'ATAKKAM' that in 1990 When I was studying +2, I had a prize in 'thirukkural memory contest' after completely delivering out 1330 kurals. That time I knew only "Mu. Varatharasanaar Urai".

But Vedhic Solomons make me to derive correct 'Urai' comparing all "uraiyasiriyars" with tamil land history background :!:

f.s.gandhi

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Pathirupathu

Kelvi Kettu Padivam Vodiyathu
Velvi Vettanai Vuyarnthor Vuvamba
Othal Vettal Avaipirar Seital
EIthal Erral enru Aaru Purintu olukum

Arampuri Anthanar Valimolunthu Oluki. - Their Duties are :

1. Read Vetham and Ara Nool and research
2. Teach those Books
3. Do Vedhic Yagnas and Poojas for self
4. Perform Vedhic Yagnas and Poojas for others.
5. Give Money to Needy and
6. Receive Money so that you can do 5.


Here I want to inform the readers how Solomon twists & makes fraud the above poetry to solve his purpose :!:

"Kelvi Kettu Padivam Vodiyathu
Velvi Vettanai Vuyarnthor Vuvamba"

The above comes under 74rth poetry in "Pathirup paththu" as first and second lines.

"Othal Vettal Avaipirar Seital
EIthal Erral enru Aaru Purintu olukum"

The above comes under 24rth poetry in "Pathirup paththu" as 8th and 9th lines.

Solomon fradulently joints this two portions to make "Aru Thozhil" :?:

In the 74rth poetry

Kelvi Kattal & Velvi Vettal are specified. (only two things) :!:

In the 24rth Poetry,

1. Othal , 2. Vettal - then avai Pirarch cheyithal (no numbers)

3. Eeethal - koduththal 4. Aetral - receiving

Aaru Purinthu ozhuki - In this Aaru is not six but Vazhi / way because six is not defined. Also there is no word like "Thozhil" to specify 'Aruthozhil'.

Also 'Velvi Vettal' is repeated while combining 74rth and 24rth poetries.

If you account 'Kelvi Kettal' there comes only five 'Thozhil' :!:

Why are you doing such a fraud solomon :?: To save your Vedhic propoganda :!:

Readers :!: Beware of Vedhic Frauds :!:

Readers Kindly check out "PATHITHUPPATTRU" under the following link to decipher out the above Vedhic fraud.

www.tamilvu.org/library/1240/html/1240ind.htm

f.s.gandhi

[solomon]

Friends,

FSG wants everybody to read New Kurals done by FSG AND Not VALLUVARS, Friends, when I Quoted a ThiruvalluvaMalai-song partiallQuote:


Velliveethiar

Cheyyamozhikum Thiruvalluvar Mozhintha
Poiya Mozhikum Porul Ondre. Song 23, Thiruvalluva Malai.


"Cheyyamozhi" means natural language that is People's natural language. Cheyyaniram means 'eyarkai niram', Cheyyal means 'Thiru makal' (natural god)
Reader can note this in any tamil dictionary.

Hence Cheyyamozhi means people language. "Poiyamozhi" y
and Our Super Genius FSG manupulated it to Nonsense, and letr me complete the Thiruvalluvamalai fully for Viewers:
CheyyaMozhikkuth Thiruvalluvar molintha
PoiyaaMozhikkum Porul Ondre- Cheyya
Vatharkuriyar Anthanare Yarayinennai
Itharkuriyar Allathalal- VelliVeedhiyar

Vedas- the Custodians were Brahmins only for longtime, hence it belongs to them, where as Kural is for all. FSG runs and Spreads Lies because he hates Truths and want falsehoods.

ThiruvalluvaMalai- in majority songs tells us that Thiruvalluvar wrote Kural to Give theVedic Messages in Easy to understand Tamil Couplets.

Parppan means Brahmins only in ALL references in Tholkappiyam and I HAVE also quoted MaraimalaiADIgal in Tamil is Elder forum and Kural - Marappinum refers Brahmins and Vedas only, and I QUOTE From Mayilai Sivamuthu- Urai, and he gives
Ooththu- Vedam or Marai as meaning of word, and again Namakkal Kvaignar gives the same meaning, and all Old COmmentareis of the Last 1000 years says that way only.

Aruthozil- Othutal for self - Teach to others -2
Vettal for self - do for others - 2
Etal and Receive - 2 Total -6
and FSG DOESnot even leave Sangam song to nonsesne interpretation.

Friends, I WAnt every one to understand Kural of Valluvar and not FSG foolish Interpretation.

Mosesmohammedsolomon

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

and Our Super Genius FSG manupulated it to Nonsense, and letr me complete the Thiruvalluvamalai fully for Viewers:

"CheyyaMozhikkuth Thiruvalluvar molintha
PoiyaaMozhikkum Porul Ondre- Cheyya
Vatharkuriyar Anthanare Yarayinennai
Itharkuriyar Allathalal "- VelliVeedhiyar[/b]

Again Solomon mixes Anthanar and Paarpaan following his Vedhic forefathers of 10nth century CE :!:

I have already defined who are Paarpaans quoting tholkappiam and what are their duties. Further I will write it in "Tamil is elder to Sanskrit" thread.

Anthanar is different in meaning.

"Anthanar Noorkkum Araththirkum Aathiyae
Ninrathu Mannavan Kole" - Kural - 543.

means King's ruling is the cause for Anthanar writting. It is open and research is made by analysing the facts of natural.

"Noolae karakam Mukkol Manaye
AAYUM Kalai Anthanarkkuriya" - Tholkappiam - Cheyyuliyal - 71.

Here I want to mention that "Aayithal"- research can be done only by material way. Hence whatever Anthanar observe in this world is made in his writting. This is natural and not artificial. Anthanar is meant for "Aram"


ThiruvalluvaMalai- in majority songs tells us that Thiruvalluvar wrote Kural to Give the Vedic Messages in Easy to understand Tamil Couplets.

Vedhic genius bluffs something here :!:


Parppan means Brahmins only in ALL references in Tholkappiyam and I HAVE also quoted MaraimalaiADIgal in Tamil is Elder forum and Kural - Marappinum refers Brahmins and Vedas only, and I QUOTE From Mayilai Sivamuthu- Urai, and he gives
Ooththu- Vedam or Marai as meaning of word, and again Namakkal Kvaignar gives the same meaning, and all Old COmmentareis of the Last 1000 years says that way only.

"oththu"(kuril) is the correct word. Theveneyap Pavanar's Urai is logical and acceptable one of what I said.


Aruthozil- Othutal for self - Teach to others -2
Vettal for self - do for others - 2
Etal and Receive - 2 Total -6
and FSG DOESnot even leave Sangam song to nonsesne interpretation.

There is no poetry or verse in Sankam Anthology giving "NUMBER IDENTIFICATION" without giving all the theme aspects :!:

I can challenge you in this Solomon :!: Without grouping one by one there won't be numbering :!:

"Avai Prarch cheithal" can not be numbered and this is numbered by Solomon to spread his evil Vedhic message :!:

I will write later what "Aru Thozhil" means.

f.s.gandhi

[Anchaneya]

Friends,

I AM quoting verbatim from Mu.Varatharasanar- who was a formal Vice Chancelor of Annamalai University ( established Tiruvalluvar Pidam and Dr.Murugararathinam Chair, is considered as the Living Authority on Valluvar, and this Center has published more than 200 Research book on Valluvar) and Namakkal Kavignar Ramalingam Pillai and Mayilai Sivamuthu Urais for all of you.

Kural -Marappinum Ooththu Kolalam Parpan
Pirappu Olukkam Kundrak Kedum Kural No 134.

Mu.Va: "Karra MARAI Porulai Maranthalam Mindum athanai Oothik Karruk kolla mudium; Anal Marai Oothuvanudaiya Kudipirappu, Oolukkam kunrinal kedum.

FSC AND THANI TAMIL DUBIOUSES- YOUR BIBLE Vakku- Poiye enkal Vazhi- Potri.

Namkkal Kavignar Urai:
(Paarpan Vuyarnhtha Kulathan enpathu Avan Vetham Oothuvathal antru) Vetham Oothuvathai Maranthuvittalum Kutramillai; Brahmanan Thannudaiya Olukkathil Kurainthal Avan Vuyar Kulathan enpathu Alinthu Pogum.

FS.Canthi Vazhi- Forgery- Fraude engal vazhi Porti

Mayilai Sivamuthu:
Parppan than katra MaraiPorulai maranthuponalum avan marupadiyum athaik Katru kolla mudium. Anal antha Parppan Nal Oolukkathil irunthu Thavari viduvane anal Mindum avan Nalla Kudip Pirappu Vudaiavanaka Evaralum Karuthap pada Mattan.
Dictionary: Oothu- Marai allathu Vetham; Pirappozhukkam-Nalla Kudumbathil Piranthathanal vundaya Nalla Olukkam .

FSC- Bible Vakku- POIYE POTRI-POIYE ENGAL VAZHI- POIYE ENGAL NERI.

Friends, Tirukural is considered as a Noble Literature and regarded as the Master Piece of Tamil Literature and a Gift to World, Let this Anti-Truth Tamil Hypocrites do not corrupt Tamil

Now on Tamil Marriages Solomon gave quote from Silapathikaram:

"Mamoothu Parppan MARAI vazhi kattida
Thi Valanch Cheithu"

Every time Marai or Vetham is said in Sangam Literature, it is always said as related to Anthanar or Parpan- depending on its Song usage- and F.S.Candhi's most of the interpretations have always been irrelevcant and meaningless and uses the same Techniques of Dr.Theivanayagam, and doing same horms to Tamils

Please Leave Kurals froM YOUR Mockery.

[solomon]

Well Anchaneya.

Little harsh, but certainly the forgery of FSG is much more arragant and it is excellent you posted with proofs.

I REMEMBER, Even Mu.Karunanidhi and V.R.Neducncheliyan, G.U.POPe and even Arulapp-the ArchBishop funded Deivanayagam- referred Ooththu and Parppan as Vetham and Brahmins.

FSG Contiues with the same way as ThaniTamil founders, write anything without any proofs- forgery , faking all are permitted.

Tamil's Ancientness is known, these faking only defames.

Tholkappiyar as per Nachiniarkiniyar Vurai- is from Parasuramar Tribe Brahmin, with own name of "Thirana Thumagni", Valluvar as per Tradtions of Tamil was a son of Brahmin Father withan intercaste marriage of lower caste women, and that Valluvar was a Brahmin. These Tradtions are more reliable than Non-sense of Kumari Kandam- Kadal Kol and other Frauds, which I indent to expose and also on Roots of words another Great Anti-Linguistic Fradulant Science.
Valluvar be saved from Forgers.
MosesMohammedSolomon

[VISAAKAN]

XXXXXXXXXXXXX

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear Friends, :)

“Nunniya Noolpala Karpinum MatrunTHAN
UNMAI ARIVE MIKUM” - Valluvam.

I believe in this “THAN UNMAI ARIVU”- “Sontha Arivu” – and we cannot expect this from ‘Vedhavakku Vedhiars’ like solomons & Ancheneyans :!:

And these Vedhics coined new word 'Bible Vakku' and since I call them 'Vedha Vakku Vedhiar" thinking that I am christian (personal attack :!: 'F' in my name does not specify christian / muslim / Hindu name :!: fernandes-fathima-ferosmani :!: ). You can call me some other fittable name :!:

Vedha vakku,Bible vakku(which is against scientific 'Kopernicas' invention) or Quran Vakku - all are equally same based on religious fundamentalism which should be rejected in this kind of globalised discussions.

Vedhics always go to the extend even puranas,stories & other lies to support their purpose.

But in this educated information era all their bluffs will be put into sand :!:

If there is no variation in the meaning of Kural there could be only one “urai” for that.I have found all of ‘Thirukkural urais’ were based on either Dravidian / Vedhical system which I find entirely different from the prevailing situations of Sankam era tamil society.

I didn’t not quote and manipulate same from any “Urai” as This forgery fathers(now they should understand what forgery means) like Solomon did in this thread about “Ezhupirappu & Pathirupaththu poetry” which I revealed earlier in this thread. Actually these Vedhics should call themselves as forgeries :!:

All my view about “oththu” is my original decipherment based on tamils history & logical sequence of truths. Readers might have observed that I have shown literary evidences right from tholkappiam & Thirukkural. “Paarpaans’ of sankam period are part of marriage rituals and valluvar found mentioning them under “Illaraviyal” part is fittable.

As an observer and truth seeker I have every right to question any foolish PhD.s and other wishful scholars.

Dear Forgery makers,

1. Why don’t you answer my last post mentioning the manipulation of “Pathitruppaththu” ?

2. Can you show single literary evidence that Anthanars & Paarpaans are same ?

Don’t put “Chantrores” into present worst caste system making the thread an uncomfortable one and moderators will take necessary action.

Take care Vedhic boys :!: , I may come late but with latest ideas & proofs to wipe out your Vedhic frauds :!:

f.s.gandhi

[solomon]

Friends,

I Regret on great conterversy, and that's due to Wanted Forcible Mis-interpretation of Sangam Literature.

Tholkappiyam refers Pre-marriage love as Kalaviyal and Marriage as Karpiyal, and Marriage is done by Parpanan-Brahmin.

Tholkappiyam also tells other Tamil type of Worship, otherthan Vedic and confirmed by Sangam Literauture.

I shall post them shortly.

On Brahmins- Anthanars and Parpanan are same- FSG can see Silapathikaram and Manimekhalai which repeats many times interchangingly.
KURUNTHOGAI Says:
Padiva Vundi PARPANA magane
ELUTHAK KaRPIN Ninsol Vullum- 156.
Elutha Karpu means Vethams.

I AM quoting even Ooththu:

Ooththudai Anthnarku Oppavai ellam Manimekhalai 13: 26

Ooththudai Anthanar Vurai Nool kidakail Silapathi 22:70

Varthigan thannaik Kaththanar Ombik
Koththozil Elaiyavar Komurai Andrik
Paduporul Velvip PARPPAN Evan ena Sila 23: 100-104.

Friends, to make Tamil better or Older You do not have to twist Tiruvalluvar, and that's not certainly good.
Friends- Elupirappu - I HOLD still is Several, but this is not the forum to discuss, but FSG Please read Kural 639 and 1278, WHICH Elu means Several.

All OtheR Kurals, FSG referred are wrongly Interpreted and Let me put myu reply in a day or two.
MosesMohammedSolomon

[Idiappam]

Friends,

I Regret on great conterversy, and that's due to Wanted Forcible Mis-interpretation of Sangam Literature.

You are just doing that, Solomon - "Forcible Mis-interpretation of Sangam Literature".


Tholkappiyam refers Pre-marriage love as Kalaviyal and Marriage as Karpiyal, and Marriage is done by Parpanan-Brahmin.

Where in the tholkappiam is that verse -- saying marriage is conducted by a brahmin??


Tholkappiyam also tells other Tamil type of Worship, otherthan Vedic and confirmed by Sangam Literauture.
I shall post them shortly.

Meanwhile what are the vedic worships mentioned in the tholkappiam?



On Brahmins- Anthanars and Parpanan are same- FSG can see Silapathikaram and Manimekhalai which repeats many times interchangingly.
KURUNTHOGAI Says:
Padiva Vundi PARPANA magane
ELUTHAK KaRPIN Ninsol Vullum- 156.
Elutha Karpu means Vethams.

I AM quoting even Ooththu:

Ooththudai Anthnarku Oppavai ellam Manimekhalai 13: 26

Ooththudai Anthanar Vurai Nool kidakail Silapathi 22:70

Varthigan thannaik Kaththanar Ombik
Koththozil Elaiyavar Komurai Andrik
Paduporul Velvip PARPPAN Evan ena Sila 23: 100-104.

The Tamil word for Brahmin is Parpan - alright. But were did you dream that the words 'Aiyer, anthanar etc" refered to Brahmins??



Friends, to make Tamil better or Older You do not have to twist Tiruvalluvar, and that's not certainly good.
Friends- Elupirappu - I HOLD still is Several, but this is not the forum to discuss, but FSG Please read Kural 639 and 1278, WHICH Elu means Several.

Elu also means 'many' in Sangam Tamil. Anyway what has that word got to do with Tamil being older?


All OtheR Kurals, FSG referred are wrongly Interpreted and Let me put myu reply in a day or two.

And try to get the Tamil verses type in Tamil. I have to spend at lease half-an-hour on each verses you post to figure out the lies you are trying to tell. Many hubber don't bother - they just ignore you!

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

I am busy now due to my sudden business company trip from saudi to Italy. However I try to put my postings whenever time permits :)

Solomon showed "Ooththu"(Nedil) for Anthanar not for Paarpaan :!: 'Ezhu' in that particular Kural that I showed means only 'Seven'.

Check out tamil University Website containing 'Thirukkural' column. In that 'Oththu'(kuril) only mentioned.


ELUTHAK KaRPIN Ninsol Vullum- 156.
Elutha Karpu means Vethams.

'Eluthak karpu' in this does not mean Vedham / chathur vedhas and it only means 'Karpu Vazhkai' and the whole meaning is Parpaan's participation shall be in Karpu marriage :!: Solomon :!: your Vedhic mind directs you to derive wrong meaning :!: Take care :!:

Solomon should always digout new meaning:Should rely on Big bosses as guidance :!: Then only new thinking will come out. True picture will come out :!: .

We wanted to prove tamil elderiliness in 'Tamil is elder to Sanskrit' thread. We are doing it.

But Solomon deviated the topic talking about Anthanar & Paarpaan which readers may observe that his arguement does not sound well.

We always want Solomon to discuss about Kural and its meaning in convincing way and not his own wishful way. Readers may observe how he twists Kural which is belonging to whole humanity of world into his own way to solve his purpose. Certainly We have to refute it.

See you guys :!: Have a nice time :!:

f.s.gandhi

[solomon]

Friends,

Due to accessebility problems I Could not visit and also I was busy.

We are here discussing Tiruvalluvar Views and Not Misinterpretations.

Valluvar says-
Aapayan Kundrum AruThozhilar NOOL Marappar
KaVALAN kAVAN Enin. - 560 and I QUOTE G.U.Pope- " If the Guaddian of the country neglects to guard it, the Produce of the Cows will fail, and the Men of Six Duties Viz BRAHMINS will forget the Vedas.
Actually the Previous Kural, says that Rains will not come if King is not Properly Ruling, FRIENDS- In 100CE- when Valluvar wrote Kural Agriculture was the MAJOR part of Living and what is worse to Country - than Stoppage of Rain- Stopping of Vedas by Brahmins, is the view of THIRUVALLUVAR
Tholkappiyar says

Iyer Panginum Amarar Suttium...

Amarar Kan Mudiyum Aaru Vagaiyanum...

Aaru vagaipatta Parppana Pakkamum...

Puram Says- Aru thozhil Anthanar Aram Pruinthu Edutha 397

Aaru Thozil Anthanar Arumarai Pala Pagarnthu- Kalithogai Vazhthu etc.,
Friends,
FSG and Idiyappam wants to twist Valluvar and want Truth to be hidden, not possible in this Net age.

What is the Duty of the KING- Valluvar is clear-

Anthanar Noorkum Arathirkum Aathiyai
Nintratrhu Mannavan Kol - 543
G.U.Pope again- The Scepture of the King is the Firm Support of tHE Vedas of the BRahmins and of all Virtues there in described.

Friends- Anthanar-Parpanar-Iyer have all been used depending on the requirement of the Songs Seiul, and all meant the same, and that is it.
Please read Valluvar to know what Valluvar says and Not put your opinion on Kural. I AM noway supporter of Csteism and I only give what Valluvar says.
MosesMohammedsolomon

[solomon]

Friends,
Tiruvalluvar remains as the Architect of Humanity, giving all ideas without directly invoking any God, names directly, and maintaining Secular everywhere, not once he has used the word-Tamil.Valluvar says:
Than Vun Perkkathirku Than Pirithu Vun Vunban
Enkanam Alum Arul. Kural-251
If some body eats Flesh of other animal to maintain his body and flesh, he cannot expect Divine Blessings. Everybody must avoid eating Meat etc., if you want to reach God' Blessings.

Kavarum Kazhakamum Kaiyum Tharukki
Ivariyar Illa kiyar. Kural 935
Those who have entered to the habit of Gambling, and in constant touch with them Loses all things of Life and Perishes.

Avvithu Azhukaru Vudaiyavanai Seiyaval
Thavvaiyai Katti Vidum. 167

If a man is getting of Envy of other Man's Wealth - Knowledge etc., then Goddess Lakshmi will Leave you and Send her Eleder Sister Moothevi to you.
Friends, -Envy, Drinking, Meat EATING are Prohibited by Valluvar.
MosesMohammedSolomon

[solomon]

Friends,

Valluvar views on Vegetatrionism

Porul Atchi Porratharku Illai Arul Atchi
Anku Illai Vun Thinbavarku. Kural 252

Vunnamai Vullathu Vuyilnilai Vun Vunna
Annaththal Cheiyathu Alaru. Kural 255


For those who do not give proper value for money, can not control Money management and Similarly for One who is eating Flesh of Other Animals will wont get Benefits of Divine Blessings due to his acts. Friends- Arul is always translated as Divine Blessings.

The Hell itself doesnot allow the dead body inside, then why should man kill and eat Dead Animal’s flesh and loose Divine Blessings.

Friends- Thiruvalluvar is very clear on Vegetarionism; For most of us who are used to eating otherwise, should start missing it on certain days of week and slowly leave it, but it is not easy.

Moses Solomon

[mahadevan]

[tscii:051463341e]solomon wrote:
Friends,

Valluvar views on Vegetatrionism

Porul Atchi Porratharku Illai Arul Atchi
Anku Illai Vun Thinbavarku. Kural 252

Vunnamai Vullathu Vuyilnilai Vun Vunna
Annaththal Cheiyathu Alaru. Kural 255


For those who do not give proper value for money, can not control Money management and Similarly for One who is eating Flesh of Other Animals will wont get Benefits of Divine Blessings due to his acts. Friends- Arul is always translated as Divine Blessings.

The Hell itself doesnot allow the dead body inside, then why should man kill and eat Dead Animal’s flesh and loose Divine Blessings.

Friends- Thiruvalluvar is very clear on Vegetarionism; For most of us who are used to eating otherwise, should start missing it on certain days of week and slowly leave it, but it is not easy.


Solomon anna, finally you have accepted that the **** vedic cow sacrificers learnt vegetarianism from tamils !


[/tscii:051463341e]

[mahadevan]

Solomon please provide such examples from kural

chapter 8

267. A Kshatriya, having defamed a Brahmana, shall be fined one hundred (panas); a Vaisya one hundred and fifty or two hundred; a Sudra shall suffer corporal punishment.

270. A once-born man (a Sudra), who insults a twice-born man with gross invective, shall have his tongue cut out; for he is of low origin.

377. But even these two, if they offend with a Brahmani (not only) guarded (but the wife of an eminent man), shall be punished like a Sudra or be burnt in a fire of dry grass.


380. Let him never slay a Brahmana, though he have committed all (possible) crimes; let him banish such an (offender), leaving all his property (to him) and (his body) unhurt

413. But a Sudra, whether bought or unbought, he may compel to do servile work; for he was created by the Self-existent (Svayambhu) to be the slave of a Brahmana.

414. A Sudra, though emancipated by his master, is not released from servitude; since that is innate in him, who can set him free from it?

415. There are slaves of seven kinds, (viz.) he who is made a captive under a standard, he who serves for his daily food, he who is born in the house, he who is bought and he who is given, he who is inherited from ancestors, and he who is enslaved by way of punishment.

416. A wife, a son, and a slave, these three are declared to have no property; the wealth which they earn is (acquired) for him to whom they belong.

417. A Brahmana may confidently seize the goods of (his) Sudra (slave); for, as that (slave) can have no property, his master may take his possessions.

418. (The king) should carefully compel Vaisyas and Sudra to perform the work (prescribed) for them; for if these two (castes) swerved from their duties, they would throw this (whole) world into confusion.


chapter 10

129. No collection of wealth must be made by a Sudra, even though he be able (to do it); for a Sudra who has acquired wealth, gives pain to Brahmanas


chapter 11

131. He who has slain a Sudra, shall perform that whole penance during six months, or he may also give ten white cows and one bull to a Brahmana.

132. Having killed a cat, an ichneumon, a blue jay, a frog, a dog, an iguana, an owl, or a crow, he shall perform the penance for the murder of a Sudra;

[mahadevan]

The previous posting were just a sample of the greatness of manu smiriti

[Anchaneya]

Friends,

Let us keep TIRUKURAL FORUM ONLY WITH KURAL ALONE.

[mahadevan]

Anchaneya, TIRUKURAL forum should kept only as a forum for TIRUKURAL, I agree with you there. Solomon said that sanskrit lit only poetically refers discrimination and that TIRUKURAL is full of casteism. Here I posted the filth from Manu and am asking Solomon to post the equivalent from TIRUKURAL. Which I am sure he cannot

[bis_mala]

Parpanan-Brahmin

paarpan means one who looks after a temple. from the root: paar = to see or oversee. During Sangam era the word had a slightly different meaning. Any person of any walk of life could then take on that job and be known as "paarppan". Paarpanan is just another form of the word "paarpanan".

Brahmin (same as BrahmaNan or BrahmaNa ) was a person who had realised Brahman, the god, through his long study and adherence to noble conduct. Thus Viswamitra, a king, became a Brahmana. Thirisanku a king was "demoted" from his position. These stories show that a person of one position could take on another. Valmiki a hunter became a BrahmaNa. Vedavyasa a fisherman became a BrahmaNa. They were realised BrahmaNas. A god-realised man could then transmit his realisation to another and then ordain him as BrahmaNa. The latter then becomes "twice born". As the system progressed through ages, professional groups became mutually exclusive.


"aRuthozilOr nuul maRappar" - ( kuRaL 560) cited above.

aRuthozil = aRam iyaRRuthalaith thoZilaai udayOr. nuul - aRa nuulkaL. aRam < aRu + am; aRuthozil = aRu + thozil. Please notice the word "aRu" , which means defining codes of conduct.


anthaNar = am+thaN +ar. means aRuL udayOr, aRavOr. Does not refer to any closed group of people.

Oththu from Othu (verb) means read. Oththu = nuul.

Oththudai anthaNar (in MaNimEkalai etc ) means those who spend their time and life reading. No closed group is referred..

Should not read present day twisted understandings of these words into texts which are 2000 years old! Cannot assume that meanings and social conditions and rules governing them never changed.

[solomon]

Friends,

We get lot more friends who are all BRAINWASHED by the Nonsense of Thani-Tamil Movement people, and keep repeating the Nonsesnse of Wrong Beliefs.

Tholkappiyam to Sangam Lit. to Manimekhalai refers to Vedas in Different names and Brahmins as Parpanarkal or Anthanarkal.

Parpanarkal means Forseers, With Panchangam a part of Sruthi, they forsee Rain etc., and Guide what crop is better, whether You can undertake Travel etc., Also they see the Dharma- Aram and tell you.

Anthanar- Again from Antham; the Ultimate Vedas they see and tell you , this is what Sangam Lit tells.

Friends, I HAVE posted Numerous articles in Tamil is Elder Thread and also this. Please Download all Pages and read them.

Solomon

[bis_mala]

friends who are all BRAINWASHED by the Nonsense of Thani-Tamil Movement people,

Friends, one should opt for washed brains rather than unwashed or dirty ones!!

Thani Thamizh movement is not nonsense!! The movement aims to keep Tamil pure or as pure as possible since heavy admixture of foreign words corrupts the language. There is nothing wrong with that. Its just like other movements in other parts of the country and world. Hindi purged most Urdu words. French purged itself of foreign words too. The Chinese language keeps itself pure by refusing foreign words and elements. Sanskritists talk of purity of Sanskrit.
So why not Tamils?

If anthaNar is from antham (=end or last ), someone aptly said that it means those who came to Tamil Nadu as the last "batch".
If antham is end, what's meant by "aNar"?

As said by me, since it means aruLudayOr, it did not refer to any particular group of people. The correct etymology is am+thaN+ar.

Solomon is entitled to his view. He implies in his posts that most people here do not believe him.


Parpanarkal means Forseers, With Panchangam a part of Sruthi, they forsee Rain etc., and Guide what crop is better, whether You can undertake Travel etc., Also they see the Dharma- Aram and tell you.


All just speculation isn't it?

The group of people that Solomon is thinking about were in fact performing "yagas" or "velvi" when they entered the "profession" in TN. Hence they did not see these things. The vaLLuvar kudi did so and since the later new group after learning the job from the vaLLuvars, also 'applied' for these posts with the passage of time. there was a necessity to distinguish the new job entrants from those old group. The old group was referred to as "muthu parppaan" or "maamuthu paarppaan" as they were called in Silappathikaaram!! By contrast, the new entrants to the post were then "puthu paarppan" or "puththELir" as they were called by vaLLuvar in kuRaL.

[ puthu + aaL = ] puththaaL > puththEL (new people or new-comers.) ; puththELir (plural form).

Where they came from was called: "puththELir ulagu".




Anthanar- Again from Antham; the Ultimate Vedas they see and tell you ,

What is ' ultimate' about it? Call them just 'vEdas!!'

Millions of people in the subcontinent get on with their daily lives very comfortably without ever looking up the Vedas for anything. Even the group that were ordained to propagate the Vedas when they were in their unwritten stage forgot most of them. There were numerous Vedas and because the groups concerned kept forgetting them, some of them saved had to be written down to prevent further loss. Most of the mantras recited in our temples now are not from the Vedas, are they?
The people of TN never had to refer to them. In Tamil Nadu, it is siddaantham and not Vedaantham. Solo's view that paarpaan had to refer to Vedas and tell you (answer your queries) is pure imaginative nonsense!! Even for the pro-vedic group, they only memorise in veda padasalai to be relegated to the backyards of their minds once they "graduate". Vedic philosophy has little or no application to TN, - not in Sangam Age nor even today!!

One who adhered to Vedic philosophy was referred to at first as vEthiyan. Now its meaning is more general.

So paarpaan is one who looks after the temple. Nothing specifically to do with any of the vEdas!! Vedas have nothing whatsoever to do with the etymology of the word paarppaan, with which we are here concerned and as it is used in kuRaL.

[mahadevan]

Idiyappam wrote: So paarpaan is one who looks after the temple. Nothing specifically to do with any of the vEdas!! Vedas have nothing whatsoever to do with the etymology of the word paarppaan, with which we are here concerned and as it is used in kuRaL.

Well said Idiyappam, infact vedas did not know temple worship at all. Worship in vedas meant having a bonfire and butchering helpless animals. People call it a great a civilization!, such barbarism is nothing but a shame on entire humanity. Fortunatley these vedics had the natives of India (Tamils) to learn some culture from.

[bis_mala]

vaLLuvar condemned vedic practices (yaaga):

avichorinthu aayiram vEttalin onRan
uyir sekuththu uNNaamai nanRu.

Quite clearly, ancient tamils called it "avichEgam" Both avi and chegu (sekuththu ) can be found in the kuRaL.

avi + seku + am = avichEgam (tamil ) > abishekam (sanskrit).

As animal sacrifices came to an end or the group practising it gave it up, avichEgam (abishegam) also changed its character and reached its present connotation.

Both the root words are well preserved in kuRaL.

puuvum niirum kondu iRaivanai vazipaduvathu tamizar paNbu.

puu sei > puusai (tamil) > puja (sanskrit).

[Idiappam]

Idiyappam wrote: So paarpaan is one who looks after the temple. Nothing specifically to do with any of the vEdas!! Vedas have nothing whatsoever to do with the etymology of the word paarppaan, with which we are here concerned and as it is used in kuRaL.

Well said Idiyappam, infact vedas did not know temple worship at all. Worship in vedas meant having a bonfire and butchering helpless animals. People call it a great a civilization!, such barbarism is nothing but a shame on entire humanity. Fortunatley these vedics had the natives of India (Tamils) to learn some culture from.

Bis Mala said that, Mr Mahadevan -- not me! And she got it right!

[mahadevan]

solomon wrote: Parpanarkal means Forseers, With Panchangam a part of Sruthi, they forsee Rain etc., and Guide what crop is better, whether You can undertake Travel etc., Also they see the Dharma- Aram and tell you.

solomon please consult somebody who knows astrology/astronomy, they would tell you how different Tamil panchagam is from its equivalent in other indian languages. Infact it resembles Mayan calander than anything that is north Indian. Mayan history talks about how dark skinned people from east clothed in plain white visited their land and taught them culture, astrnomy and science. Panchagam was a product of tamil genius, though sanskrit fanatics translated most of the technical terminology in it (as always). Do not say that it was used exclusively by a certain caste to such an extent that they beacame to called as fortune tellers(parpanar). Even today in TN fortune telling is not limited by any caste considerations.

[bis_mala]

Now let's deal with what Ancheneya wrote:


I AM quoting verbatim from Mu.Varatharasanar- .......................

Marappinum Ooththu Kolalam Parpan
Pirappu Olukkam Kundrak Kedum Kural No 134.

Mu.Va: "Karra MARAI Porulai Maranthalam Mindum athanai Oothik Karruk kolla mudium; Anal Marai Oothuvanudaiya Kudipirappu, Oolukkam kunrinal kedum.

Here, "marai Othuvaarudaiya" does not refer to the (possible ancestors of ) present group who are claiming that Varatharaasanaar had adverted to them. In fact many temples have "Othuvaars" who are of the vaLLuvar group. During Sangam period, any person paid or required to do the job was the "maRai othuvaar". Mu Vaa does not refer to any caste.

Therefore, this point raised by the writer and supported by Solo is in utter collapse!!

MaRai does not refer to any veda foreign to TN. MaRai can refer to any written or unwritten learning of TN itself.

[mahadevan]

Is the word marai related to Marabu ?

[bis_mala]

marabu is related to maruvu - maruvuthal. (to embrace or adopt what has been done before ).

maRu ( + ai (suffix) gives (1) maRai, refutation, denial.
The word ethirmaRai contains this derivative. [ ai vikuthi peRRa thoziRpeyar in grammar ].

The above maRai (n) is unrelated to the following maRai (vb)

(2) maRai [ vb] - maRaiththal (= to hide) [ thoziRpeyar ]

maRai [ vb] > maRai [ noun ] ( ithu vikuthi peRaamal pakuthiyE ninRu peyarch chollaai varukiRathu ) [ muthanilaith thoziRpeyar in grammar ] This last is the one we are considering.

Thus, maRai and marabu are not related.


thanks.

[Uthappam]

nalla villakam, Bis_mala. Intha mathiri technical grammer tamil words ellam, ippathaan konchan ketkiren. vikuthi peramal, muthanilaith thozir peyar.... super.

[bis_mala]

[tscii:e76e9fb206]
Thanks uththappam sir!

Now, we shall turn to another urai cited by Anchaneya:


Namkkal Kavignar Urai:
(Paarpan Vuyarnhtha Kulathan enpathu Avan Vetham Oothuvathal antru) Vetham Oothuvathai Maranthuvittalum Kutramillai; Brahmanan Thannudaiya Olukkathil Kurainthal Avan Vuyar Kulathan enpathu Alinthu Pogum.

KuRaL is a book that has the distinction of receiving many commentaries from numerous outstanding scholars from the days of the great PARIMELAZAGAR. Even between old commentators, you would see differences in interpretation. It is the common feature in all these interpretations that they are “enriched” by the personal beliefs, religious persuasions, individual scholarship, knowledge of other literature – tamil as well as foreign and so forth.

There are many types of commentaries and in saying so, I am not referring to traditional classifications of commentaries that Tamil scholars refer to. One type would move closely with the history of the time. Another would try its best to interpret a stanza in such a way that it can be explained and adapted to present circumstances. Yet another would merely give the meanings of words which are not in common use today, helping you to understand by yourself what the stanza means. If you are science student, you would know that are such things as APPLIED MECHANICS, WORKSHOP MATHS, PRACTICAL MATHS.

Well, in commentaries too, there are species such as : “ applied commentaries”, “practical commentaries” and so forth. Namakkal Kavingar's commentary is one such commentary which looks at kuRaL from the present standpoint. You may call it “puthu urai”. It has its merits. Much of KuRaL’s commentaries were made at a time when raja and rani were ruling. Now they are gone. Many kuRaLs written with regard to the king should be brought down to the present circumstances, reinterpreted and applied!! They have to be applied to democratic institutions even though the author lived at a time when there were no such institutions. It is not wrong and it is one way of skinning the cat, so to speak.

With due deference to Namakkal, on its surface his puthu urai appears to have read caste into kuRaL. But his strategy is to apply the present to the past. Kulam is not the exact equivalent of caste. Kulam is then a collection of family units that are affiliated to one another over a period of time with a common genetic pool. Kulam is a collection of several “kudi”s. [ note: kul > kulai (vaazaikkulai); kul > kulam. Means from the same stem ] By now, people looking after temple have become a closed collection of kudis. They are supposed to have high social distinction. This distinction is an achievement owing to good conduct over a period of long time. Ozukkam determines this distinction. To adopt kuRaL to the present day situation, Namakkal wrote such a commentary. Namakkal intends to tell us that if not for the ozukkam, paarppan has no other distinction. One who commits theft of temple funds or who lusts after women who frequent the temple loses his distinction and is no better than any other ordinary person. This practical commentary is purposefully adapted to the present social conditions as they are now and do not in any manner show vaLLuvar to be a caste supporter. If any, vaLLuvar is shown as a upholder of ozukkam for the modern times.

In my view, this kuRaL can be further expanded in its scope of application. We should say that any person charged with duties in any place of worship (be it a Hindu Temple, synagogue, church or mosque) should be a person of exemplary conduct, If he fails, he brings shame to his entire family and its affiliates. (=kulam) . Parppaan should mean koyilaip paarppavan, church paarppavan, mosque paarpavan and so on. Such an interpretation befits the rank of vaLLuvar who has been given by us to the world at large (ulaginuukE thanthu vaanpukaz konda thamiznaadu…)

Note: There is a basic difference between the words "saathi" (jathi) and kulam.

saar > saarbu , saar > saarnthavar. saar> saarbinar.
saar > (saarthi) > saathi (tamil), > jati (skrt).
The underlying theme of this derivation is : "division".

kul> kulai, kul >kulam (As pointed out above, this word is about a common stem joining various things or persons. )
The underlying theme here is "joining".

Namakkal deserves our appreciation for using the word "kulam" in his commentary instead of saathi (jati).

[/tscii:e76e9fb206]

[bis_mala]

[tscii:cf4ae41193]The last urai quoted by Ancheneya:-


Mayilai Sivamuthu:
Parppan than katra MaraiPorulai maranthuponalum avan marupadiyum athaik Katru kolla mudium. Anal antha Parppan Nal Oolukkathil irunthu Thavari viduvane anal Mindum avan Nalla Kudip Pirappu Vudaiavanaka Evaralum Karuthap pada Mattan.
Dictionary: Oothu- Marai allathu Vetham; Pirappozhukkam-Nalla Kudumbathil Piranthathanal vundaya Nalla Olukkam .


Mayilai Sivamuthu’ s commentary repeats the word “paarppaan” found in kuRaL but unlike Namakkal, he does not give the word “brahmaNan” to explain it or as a 'synonym' to it. Like Mu.Va, it is clear that Sivamuthu did not want to apply its present synonym as also a synonym of the word in the bygone era. As I have said in earlier post, the word BrahmaNa itself had undergone changes in meaning. In other words, what may appear to be “equal” in meaning now was not “equal” during the age of vaLLuvar. The same conclusion as for other urais apply here: that paarppan was not a name of a closed group during vaLLuvar’s era.

Let’s now deal with the meaning of Oththu: It is derived in the following way.

Othu (verb) > Oththu (noun).

The following words are formed in similar manner:

Paadu (vb) > paattu (n).
Kuudu (vb) > kuuttu (n). [ e.g., kuuttuk kudumbam ]

Some words in addition receive an “-am” suffix, as

Aadu (v) > aattu > aattam,
Naadu (vb) > naattu > naattam.

When you meet with other examples, please take note. [ grammar: vikuthi peRRO perAmalO, vallezuththu iraddiththup peyarAvathu .]

Ancheneya said that Oththu = vEtham. This word has many meanings given in any dictionary.

Meanings: 1. Othuvathu. 2. maRai. 3. vEtham. 4. iyal. 5. vithi. 6. nuul.

Thus it is not special word meaning vEtham. One cannot insist that the word referred to arya vEtham exclusively.


Othaamal oru naaLum irukkavEndAm.
Othuvathu oziyEl.

Clearly, these old sayings do not mean you must recite the vEdAs.

Othi uNarthal = padiththuth therinthukoLLuthal.
[/tscii:cf4ae41193]

A vEtham may be an "oththu" but not every oththu is vEtham. Every time the word vEtham is mentioned, it does not necessarily mean the Arya vEtham.[/i]

Remember please that as others did, "Brahmanas" too joined and were among Buddhists and Jains.

PS.- I have assumed that Ancheneya had accurately reproduced the commentaries he cited. I have not checked them.

[bis_mala]

[tscii:9b9c3d5299]I shall also cover this point more elaborately - the word : "MARAI" though I have mentioned something about it in my earlier post.
There are Tamil exponents who are firm that MARAI refers to thamiz nuul.

We shall now see what a leading Tamil pulavar thought about the word maRai. Kavi Bharathithaasan sang as follows:

"Á¨È¦ÂÉô ÀÎÅÐ ¾Á¢ú¾¡ý Á¨Èáø;
Áü¨È Á¨Èáø À¢ýÅó¾ ̨Èáø!!
Өȡö þ¨Å¸ðÌî º¡ýÚ¸û ¸¡ðÊ
ÓÆì¸ï ¦ºö....."

Thus he was quite clear that when the word maRai occurs in ancient texts, it refers to maRais or nuuls (arts, philosophies and other learnings or expositions) originating in Tamil itself.[/tscii:9b9c3d5299]


I shall now illustrate - it would be wrong to conclude that whenever the word maRai is used, it invariably refers to aRya vEtham.

maRaimozi does not mean vEtham.

n-iRaimozi mAn-thar perumai n-ilaththu
maRaipozi kAddi vidum. (kuRaL.)

¿¢¨È¦Á¡Æ¢ Á¡ó¾÷ ¦ÀÕ¨Á ¿¢ÄòÐ
Á¨È¦Á¡Æ¢ ¸¡ðÊ Å¢Îõ.

[bis_mala]

[tscii:f771beecc2]In my last past, the end part of the document appears to be corrupted. I repost the kuRaL in Tamil fonts (murasu).

¿¢¨È¦Á¡Æ¢ Á¡ó¾÷ ¦ÀÕ¨Á ¿¢ÄòÐ
Á¨È¦Á¡Æ¢ ¸¡ðÊ Å¢Îõ.

[/tscii:f771beecc2]

In Tolkappiyam, the word "maRai has been used to denote a treartise on music, the full description being: "narambin maRai". Let's look at the full verse:

[tscii:f771beecc2]«ÇÀ¢Èó ¦¾¡Ä¢ò¾Öõ ´üÈ¢¨º ¿£¼Öõ
¯Ç¦ÅÉ ¦Á¡Æ¢À þ¨º¦Â¡Î º¢Å½¢Â
¿ÃõÀ¢ý Á¨È ±ýÁÉ¡÷ ÒÄÅ÷. (¦¾¡ø. ±Øò. 33)

±É§Å þ¨º á¨Ä þ¨º Á¨È ±ýÚõ ¦º¡øÄÄ¡õ, «ó¾ì ¸¡Äò¾¢ø ±ý¸.

±É§Å ¦¾¡ø¸¡ôÀ¢Âô À¡Â¢Ãò¾¢ø ÅÕõ :

"«Èí¸¨Ã ¿¡Å¢ý ¿¡ýÁ¨È ÓüÈ¢Â
«¾í§¸¡¼¡º¡ý " ±ýÈÐ þÂø, þ¨º, ¿¡¼¸õ, ¸½ìÌ ±É ¿¡ý¸¡¸§Å¡, «Èõ, ¦À¡Õû, þýÀõ ţΠ±É º¢Ä÷ ÜÚÅÐ §À¡ýÚ ¿¡ý¸¡¸§Å¡ þÕì¸Ä¡õ. ±í¹ÉÁ¡Â¢Ûõ «¨Å ¾Á¢ú Á¨È¸û «øÄÐ áø¸û ±ýÀ¾¢ø ³ÂÁ¢ø¨Ä. «ó¿¡Ç¢ø ¬Ã¢Â §Å¾í¸û ±ØòÐ ÅÊÅò¨¾ þýÛõ ¦ÀüÚÅ¢¼Å¢ø¨Ä ±ýÀ¨¾ ¿¡õ ÁÈì¸Ä¡¸¡Ð!!

Àñ¨¼ò ¾Á¢úáø¸Ù¼ý ¬Ã¢Â §Å¾í¸ÙìÌ ´Õ ¦¾¡¼÷Òõ þø¨Ä. ¾Á¢úáø¸Ç¢ø ¬Ã¢Âî ¦º¡ü¸û ±ýÚ ³ÔüÈ ¦º¡ü¸Ç¢ý ¦¾¡¨¸¨Âì ¸¡ðÊÖõ, Õì̧ž¾¢ø þô§À¡Ð ¸ñ¼È¢Âô ÀðÎûÇ ¾Á¢úî ¦º¡È¸Ç¢ý ¦¾¡¨¸§Â Á¢Ì¾¢!!

±É§Å À¡÷ôÀ¡ý, «ó¾½÷ ¦¾¡¼ì¸Á¡¸ ÅÕõ ÀÄ ¦º¡ü¸û ¬Ã¢Â¨Ãì ÌÈ¢ò¾¨Å «øÄ.[/tscii:f771beecc2]

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Good work bis_mala. In my posting Aug 10,2005 in tamil is elder to Sanskrit thread I have clearly shown what aruthozhil means,Anthanar means & Paarpaan means. Parpaan participated in marriage rituals of all religions.

Silapathikaram & Manimekalai are Samanar books. Where do the Vedhic traditions come?

Solomon-Ancheneya misinterpreted. His forgery was shown by me regarding Pathiruppathu poetry in earlier pages of This column.

Whenever we seek the meaning of any kural we have to take into consideration of proceeding kural. The flow of thinking of valluvar clearly shall be understood by this. Pavaanar did this.

www.tamilvu.org has Pavaanar explanation for the kondunkonmai Athikaaram. The proceeding kural says about rain. The next kural says about cow. When there is no rain, there will be no grass:and so cows shall be affected. Aruthozhilore here are as per thivakaram nikandu. Visit my posting in "Tamil is elder ... "thread.

Aayars are important persons in ancient tamil society. Valluvar talks about them and cow. Not about Brahmins. Brahmin the word coined only after Vinnava(vaishana) traditions reached peak during 6th century ACE.

My posting about Tholkappiam dated 03,Aug.2005 also clears this notion.

Continue your posts to tarnish this sort of misinterpretations.

f.s.gandhi

[bis_mala]

[tscii:5eb5d5d68e]
//±É§Å À¡÷ôÀ¡ý, «ó¾½÷ ¦¾¡¼ì¸Á¡¸ ÅÕõ ÀÄ ¦º¡ü¸û ¬Ã¢Â¨Ãì ÌÈ¢ò¾¨Å «øÄ. [ PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 10:47 am ] ±ýÚ ÜÈ¢§Éý.//

§ÁÖõ ´Õ º¡ýÚ ¸¡ðÎÅÐ ¦À¡Õò¾Á¡¸ þÕìÌõ.

"«ÈÅ¡Æ¢ «ó¾½ý ¾¡û §º÷ó¾¡÷ì(Ì) «øÄ¡ø
À¢ÈÅ¡Æ¢ ¿£ó¾ø «Ã¢Ð".

þ¾¢ø ÅÕõ «ó¾½÷ ±ýÈ ¦º¡øÖõ ±ó¾ì ÌÈ¢ôÀ¢ð¼ º¡÷À¢É¨ÃÔõ [(º¡÷¾¢)> º¡¾¢¨ÂÔõ] ÌȢ¡Áø ¸¼×¨Ç§Â ÌÈ¢ò¾Ð.

¬¸§Å «ó¾½÷ ±ýÀÐ ´Õ À¢ÈôÒÅÆ¢Â¡É º¡÷À¢É¨Ãì ÌÈ¢ò¾Ð ±ýÀÐ ¦À¡Õò¾ÁüÈ Å¡¾õ ±ýÀÐ ¦¾Ç¢×. [/tscii:5eb5d5d68e]

Thanks to FSG vandayar for his post above.

[paulthomas]

Friends,

I See with pride, quiet a lot of Friends with Dravidian Supremacy views, but still lost totally the Latest Research and Proven views.

Dr.M.Deivanayagam, a Disciple of Devaneya Pavanar- took various Commentries written for Tirukural, and took mainly from Pavanar and Panmozhi Pulavar Appadurai- and established Tirukural is written by Valluvar from Teachings of Apostle Thomas- a Disciple of Lord Jesus and with base as Bible, and also got P.Hd. on this.

Tirukural is essentially a Christian book to explain Bible.

All Dravidians should be proud of this.
Paul Thomas

[Bebeto]

Paul Thomas,
could be that you read your bible with closed eyes?

The Apostle Thomas who was in India was killed in TN if I remember right. A story tells that when he was killed on a mountain top he turned to a peacock. Peacock is the vahanam of Murugan.

When I was in SL, Embilipitiya Area - a deep Singhala araea - this spring I heard that Murugan is regarded as the mountain god there. There are also a lot of Peacocks flying arround.

And don't get blind because someone has a phd or not. It only states that you have done something specific in an accademic field. For example you can also doctorate if you just analyse the amount of water in dog shit. I am really not joking.

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Thirukkural is above all religions and it is "TAMIL MARAI" and any sort of misinterpretation by religious fundamentalists shall not have substance to prove.

Thirukkural adapted some natural gods of tamil culture. That's all. Other than that there is no single evidance of vernacular religions represented in it.

f.s.gandhi

[tfmlover]

i read thirukural online with eng translation
saw his statue pics too one in tamil nad
i feel he is Buddhist
'King Parakramabahu' , polanaruva srilanka . RESEMBLE.

[bis_mala]

[tscii:a547cb43ab]My Chinese lady friend who has a PhD in Chinese literature and history read a translation of kuRaL, given her by me. She is decidedly
of the view that Valluvar was a confucianist!! He had also taken something from LaoTse, she feels.

A European said that a single person could not have written the kuRaL.: It must be an anthology. There was no person by the name of vaLLuvan it seems - according to this man. He based his conclusion among other things on the fact that when VaLLuvar talked of education, he gave the highest mark for it; when he talked of good conduct or ozukkam, he said that it was the best in the world. A single person would say one thing is the best in the world and the rest are all subordinate to it, unlike vaLLuvar.

So many people say so many things!! Some of these researchers contradicted each other, relegating you to a state of utter confusion. Even if you spend your entire lifetime trying to reconcile them, YOU JUST CANNOT!!

Theories just keep on coming out all the time. ÒüȢĢÕóÐ ®ºø ÒÈôÀ𼨾ô§À¡Ä![/tscii:a547cb43ab]

[bis_mala]

[tscii:6f827c3787]"Å£ñ ¸üÀ¨É¦ÂøÄ¡õ Áɾ¢ø «üÒ¾¦Áý§È Á¸¢úóÐ
Å¢üÀ¨É¦ºö¡¾£÷ Á¾¢¨Â!
¾¢Éõ ¿¢¨ÉìÌõ ¦À¡ØÐ ÁÉõ þÉ¢ìÌõ Å¢¾ò¾¢ø ͸õ
«Ç¢ìÌõ ¸¨Ä¸û «È¢§Å¡õ!! (´Õ À¨Æ ¾¢¨ÃôÀ¡¼ø Òò¾¸ò¾¢Ä¢ÕóÐ. ±Ø¾¢ÂÅ÷¦ÀÂ÷ §À¡¼Å¢ø¨Ä) [/tscii:6f827c3787]

[Sudhaama]

[tscii:e571c3481a]
quote="bis_mala"

// "Å£ñ ¸üÀ¨É¦ÂøÄ¡õ Áɾ¢ø «üÒ¾¦Áý§È Á¸¢úóÐ
Å¢üÀ¨É¦ºö¡¾£÷ Á¾¢¨Â!
¾¢Éõ ¿¢¨ÉìÌõ ¦À¡ØÐ ÁÉõ þÉ¢ìÌõ Å¢¾ò¾¢ø ͸õ
«Ç¢ìÌõ ¸¨Ä¸û «È¢§Å¡õ!! (´Õ À¨Æ ¾¢¨ÃôÀ¡¼ø Òò¾¸ò¾¢Ä¢ÕóÐ. ±Ø¾¢ÂÅ÷¦ÀÂ÷ §À¡¼Å¢ø¨Ä)//

«ýÀ§Ã!.. þ¦¾ýÉ ¾¢ÕìÌÈÇ¡?... «øÄÐ ¯ÁÐ ÌÃÄ¡?.. «øÄР¡÷-Á£¾¡ÅÐ ¨¿Â¡ñÊ º¡¼Ä¡?

¿£÷ ÌÈ¢ôÀ¢Îõ þó¾ô-À¡¼ø Àáºì¾¢ À¼ò¾¢Ä¢ÕóÐ ... ºÃ¢Â¡É ¦º¡ø-ÅÊÅõ þ§¾¡...

ÌÁ¡Ã¢ ¸ÁÄ¡Å¢ý ¿¡ðÊÂôÀ¡¼ø:---

"Å£ñ ¸üÀ¨É¢ɡø Áɾ¢ø
«üÒ¾¦Áý§È ¿¢¨ÉóÐ
Å¢üÀ¨É¦ºö¡¾£÷ Á¾¢¨Â!
¾¢Éõ ¿¢¨ÉìÌõ ¦À¡ØÐ ÁÉõ
þÉ¢ìÌõ Å¢¾ò¾¢ø ͸õ
«Ç¢ìÌõ ¸¨Ä¸û «È¢§Å¡õ!!

(µ ú¢¸ º£Á¡§É Å¡ ¦ƒ¡Ä¢ìÌõ
¯¨¼Â½¢óÐ ¸Ç¢ìÌõ ¿¼Éõ Òâ§Å¡õ)
[/tscii:e571c3481a]

[tfmlover]

pls i cant read this..help

[bis_mala]

Sudhaama wrote:
[tscii:49ce5091be]//«ýÀ§Ã!.. þ¦¾ýÉ ¾¢ÕìÌÈÇ¡?... «øÄÐ ¯ÁÐ ÌÃÄ¡?.. «øÄР¡÷-Á£¾¡ÅÐ ¨¿Â¡ñÊ º¡¼Ä¡?//

«ýÒìÌâ §¿Â§Ã! ¿¡ý ²ý À¢È¨Ã ¨¿Â¡ñÊ ¦ºö§ÅñÎõ? «ô§À¡¨¾ì¸ì§À¡Ð þôÀÊì ¸ÕòÐûÇ Å⸨Çì ÜÈ¢ ±ý¨É ¿¡§É ÅÆ¢ôÀÎò¾¢ì¦¸¡û¸¢§Èý. À¢È÷ ¦ºÅ¢ìÌõ ±ðÊ «Å÷¸Ç¢¼Óõ «Ð º¢ó¾¨É «¨Ä¸¨Ç ²üÀÎòÐÁ¡É¡ø, «¾üÌ ¿¡ý ÌÚ째 ¿¢ü¸Á¡ð§¼ý. «Ð×õ ¿ý¨Á째 ±ýÚ Å¢ðÎŢΧÅý. ÌÈû ±ýÈ£÷! þó¾ì ÌÈÇ¡--

¸üÀ¨É Å£¦½ýÈ¡ø «üÒ¾¦Áý §È¡Ê
Å¢üÀ¨É ¦ºö§Âø Á¾¢.


//¿£÷ ÌÈ¢ôÀ¢Îõ þó¾ô-À¡¼ø Àáºì¾¢ À¼ò¾¢Ä¢ÕóÐ ... ºÃ¢Â¡É ¦º¡ø-ÅÊÅõ þ§¾¡...//

Àáºì¾¢ ±ýÈ À¼õ ±ô§À¡Ð Åó¾Ð ±ýÚ ¦¾Ã¢ÂÅ¢ø¨Ä. ¿¡ý À¢ÈôÀ¾üÌô ÀÄ ¬ñθÙìÌÓý Åó¾Ð§À¡Öõ. ¿¡ý ¸ñ¼ Åâ¸û áø¿¢¨ÄÂò¾¢ø ¯ûÇ ´Õ ÍÅÊ¢ĢÕóÐ. ºÃ¢Â¡É ¦º¡øÅÊÅí¸¨Ç ÅÆí¸¢Â¾üÌ ±ý ¿ýÈ¢. þÅü¨È¦ÂøÄ¡õ ¿ýÌ ¸üÚô À¢ÈÕìÌõ ÅÆí¸¢ì¦¸¡ñÊÕìÌõ ¯í¸¨Çô À¡Ã¡ðθ¢§Èý. Å¡úì ÅÇ÷¸ Ñõ ¦¾¡ñÎ[/tscii:49ce5091be].

[bis_mala]

Dear tfmlover,

Please download murasu anjal tamil fonts from www.murasu.com. Murasu 2000 fonts are free. Follow instructions on screen and also consult the help feature of the software.

[tfmlover]

its ok leavit wats the point dwn loading fonts? iwheni cant read tamil..will oneday

[bis_mala]

Paulthomas wrote:


I See with pride, quiet a lot of Friends with Dravidian Supremacy views,

It is not a question of Dravidian supremacy. It is a matter of understanding the true nature of our literature and the relevant history.
Even if the Tamils were the first race in the world it still carries them nowhere.
Presently researchers say that human race originated in Africa. Of what material help is this to the present Africans?? Is that African supremacy?

The purpose of etymology is to arrive at a proper definition of the word or to understand its correct meaning. True appreciation follows from correct understanding. The purpose of literary research is to lead to true appreciation of our language and literature. It is not to dispise other languages and their literature.

Writers here have said that kuRaL was not influenced by Northern culture and languages because that is the truth, as evident from our analysis. There is no supremacy involved.

I am unable to accept Dr Deivanayagam's views and his thesis, for reasons I have stated in my post in the Indian History section in reply to Mr. Paulthomas. The learned doctor's views are not unusually convincing to me for me to embrace it! If people here did not touch upon something, it does not follow they are all totally lost to that thing!! Certain things are best left untouched. For the info of Mr Paulthomas, Dr Deivanayagam has already been mentioned in some posts. Allegation that we are totally lost is erroneous.

Any person of any religion can say that he is at peace and at home with kuRaL!! That is the beauty of kuRaL. It is pothumaRai or pothunuul. So I am not surprised at all that a Christian says it is his, a Chinese says it is from Confucious and even a Muslim can say that it is like Mohamad's teaching - one God, no form and so forth. KuRaL was deliberately written to accomodate all. kuRaL kept clear of all religious influence. Even the atheist is happy with it!!

It is one gift of Tamil Nadu for all humanity.

[bis_mala]

its ok leavit wats the point dwn loading fonts? iwheni cant read tamil..will oneday

Dear friends, you can also copy the posts in Tamil fonts and convert to "Romanised" using the Murasu editor. This feature is available. You can then read it, and understand it if you at least know Tamil speech though not able to read T. fonts.

The following transliteration is done by Murasu Editor: for those unable to follow:

Sudhaama wrote:
//anparE!.. ithenna thirukkuRaLA?... allathu umathu kuralA?.. allathu yAr-mIthAvathu n-aiyANdi sAdalA?//

anpukkuriya n-EyarE! n-An En piRarai n-aiyANdi seyyavENdum? appOthaikkakpOthu ippadik karuththuLLa varikaLaik kURi ennai n-AnE vazippaduththikkoLkiREn. piRar sevikkum eddi avarkaLidamum athu sin-thanai alaikaLai ERpaduththumAnAl, athaRku n-An kuRukkE n-iRkamAddEn. athuvum n-anmaikkE enRu vidduviduvEn. kuRaL enRIr! in-thak kuRaLA--

kaRpanai vINenRAl aRputhamen REyAdi
viRpanai seyyEl mathi.


//n-Ir kuRippidum in-thap-pAdal parAsakthi padaththilirun-thu ... sariyAna sol-vadivam ithO...//

parAsakthi enRa padam eppOthu van-thathu enRu theriyavillai. n-An piRappathaRkup pala ANdukaLukkumun van-thathupOlum. n-An kaNda varikaL n-Uln-ilaiyaththil uLLa oru suvadiyilirun-thu. sariyAna solvadivangkaLai vazangkiyathaRku en n-anRi. ivaRRaiyellAm n-anku kaRRup piRarukkum vazangkikkoNdirukkum ungkaLaip pArAddukiREn. vAzk vaLarka n-um thoNdu.
tfmlover
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:48 pm Post subject:
pls i cant read this..help
Sudhaama
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:35 pm Post subject:

quote="bis_mala"

// "vIN kaRpanaiyellAm manathil aRputhamenRE makizn-thu
viRpanaiseyyAthIr mathiyai!
thinam n-inaikkum pozuthu manam inikkum vithaththil sukam
aLikkum kalaikaL aRivOm!! (oru pazaiya thiraippAdal puththakaththilirun-thu. ezuthiyavarpeyar pOdavillai)//

anparE!.. ithenna thirukkuRaLA?... allathu umathu kuralA?.. allathu yAr-mIthAvathu n-aiyANdi sAdalA?

n-Ir kuRippidum in-thap-pAdal parAsakthi padaththilirun-thu ... sariyAna sol-vadivam ithO...

kumAri kamalAvin n-AddiyappAdal:---

"vIN kaRpanaiyinAl manathil
aRputhamenRE n-inain-thu
viRpanaiseyyAthIr mathiyai!
thinam n-inaikkum pozuthu manam
inikkum vithaththil sukam
aLikkum kalaikaL aRivOm!!

(O rasika sImAnE vA jolikkum
udaiyaNin-thu kaLikkum n-adanam purivOm)
bis_mala
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 6:26 pm Post subject:
"vIN kaRpanaiyellAm manathil aRputhamenRE makizn-thu
viRpanaiseyyAthIr mathiyai!
thinam n-inaikkum pozuthu manam inikkum vithaththil sukam
aLikkum kalaikaL aRivOm!! (oru pazaiya thiraippAdal puththakaththilirun-thu. ezuthiyavarpeyar pOdavillai)

Best regards to all.

[Sudhaama]

[tscii:3da0bf481c]
quote="bis_mala"

// It is one gift of Tamil Nadu for all humanity.//

WELL-SAID...Yes... But a Small Correction Please...

Better Say TAMILIANS ... than Tamilnadu.!!!

.. ¡Ðõ °§Ã ¡ÅÕõ §¸Ç¢÷....!!!

¾É¢ ´ÕÅÛìÌ ¯½Å¢ø¨Ä ±É¢ø ƒ¸ò¾¢¨É «Æ¢ò¾¢Î§Å¡õ.!

±ø§Ä¡Õõ þýÒüÈ¢Õì¸ ¿¢¨ÉôÀЧŠ«øÄ¡Áø §Å¦È¡ýÚ-«È¢§Âý ÀáÀçÁ.

«ý§À ¾¸Ç¢Â¡ ¬÷ŧÁ ¦¿ö¡¸
þýÒÕÌ º¢ó¨¾§Â þξ¢Ã¢Â¡
¿ýÒÕ¸¢ »¡Éîͼ÷Å¢ÇìÌ ²üÈ¢§Éý ...

«ýÀ¢Ä¡÷ ±ýÚõ ¾ÁìÌâÂ÷ «ýÒ¨¼§Â¡÷
±ýÚõ ¯Ã¢Â÷ À¢È÷ìÌ.
[/tscii:3da0bf481c]

[bis_mala]

WELL-SAID...Yes... But a Small Correction Please...

Better Say TAMILIANS ... than Tamilnadu.!!!


You have done an excellent amendment to reflect my real thought that was the basis of what I wrote. In a hurry, I excluded myself from the credit. I am neither born in TN nor living there now!! If I say Tamil Nadu I would have left myself out. It should be TAMILIANS as you have corrected. Then it would embrace all Tamilians of the world.

vaLLuvan thannai ulakinukkE than-thu
vAnpukaz koNda --

thamizmakkaL enRu .....!

nanRi.

[Sudhaama]

[tscii:efc8913536]
"bis_mala"

vaLLuvan thannai ulakinukkE than-thu
vAnpukaz koNda --

ÅûÙÅý ¾ý¨É ¯Ä¸¢Û째 ¾óÐ
Å¡ýÒ¸ú ¦¸¡ñ¼............................................. ............ -------------- ???

thamizmakkaL enRu ..... ........................ ¾Á¢úÁì¸Ç¡???... !!!....¾Á¢ú¿¡Î?

nanRi.

¾Á¢ú- ¯Ä¸Á¡ó¾ý À¡Ã¾¢ ¦º¡ü¸Ç¢ø ¾ÅÈ¡?.... ÅûÙŨÉô ¦ÀüÚò-¾ó¾ ¿¡Î ¾Á¢ú¿¡Î ¾¡§É?

Á¢ġÒâ ¾Á¢ú¿¡ðÊø ¾¡§É ¯ÇÐ?
[/tscii:efc8913536]

[bis_mala]

//It is one gift of Tamil Nadu for all humanity.//

[tscii:c097b39014]"ÅûÙÅý ¾ý¨É ¯Ä¸¢Û째 ¾ó(¾)Ð........... ¾Á¢ú¿¡Î" ±ýÀ¨¾ò¾¡ý It is one gift of Tamil Nadu for all humanity. ±ýÚ ¦Á¡Æ¢¦ÀÂ÷òÐ ±Ø¾¢§Éý. À¢ýÒ ¯í¸û ÀâóШÃôÀʧÂ, ¾Á¢ú¿¡Î ±ýÀ¨¾ò ¾Á¢úÁì¸û ±ýÚ Á¡üȢ¨Áò§¾ý. «ôÀÊ Á¡üȢɡÖõ À¡Ã¾¢Â¢ý ¸Å¢Â¢ø ¾ÅÚ¦º¡øÅЧÀ¡Ä¡Ìõ ±ý¸¢È£÷¸û. «ôÀÊ¡ɡø Óý ¿¡ý ±Ø¾¢ÂЧÀ¡Ä§Å It is one gift of Tamil Nadu for all humanity. ±ýÚ §À¡ðÎŢθ¢§Èý. ¿ýÈ¢. Žì¸õ.

"vaLLuvan thannai ulakinukkE than-(tha)thu........... thamizn-Adu" enpathaiththAn "It is one gift of Tamil Nadu for all humanity" enRu mozipeyarththu ezuthinEn. pinpu ungkaL parin-thuraippadiyE, thamizn-Adu enpathaith thamizmakkaL enRu mARRiyamaiththEn. appadi mARRinAlum pArathiyin kaviyil thavaRusolvathupOlAkum enkiRIrkaL. appadiyAnAl mun n-An ezuthiyathupOlavE "It is one gift of Tamil Nadu for all humanity." enRu pOdduvidukiREn. n-anRi. vaNakkam.[/tscii:c097b39014]

[tfmlover]

?????

[bis_mala]

[ For those who are unable to follow Tamil fonts, the two posts by Mr Sudhaama are transliterated.}

PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 11:39 am Post subject: Re: one gift of Tamil Nadu for all humanity. Reply with quote

quote="bis_mala"

// It is one gift of Tamil Nadu for all humanity.//

WELL-SAID...Yes... But a Small Correction Please...

Better Say TAMILIANS ... than Tamilnadu.!!!

.. yAthum UrE yAvarum kELir....!!!

thani oruvanukku uNavillai enil jakaththinai aziththiduvOm.!

ellOrum inpuRRirukka n-inaippathuvE allAmal vERonRu-aRiyEn parAparamE.

anpE thakaLiyA ArvamE n-eyyAka
inpuruku sin-thaiyE iduthiriyA
n-anpuruki njAnassudarviLakku ERRinEn ...

anpilAr enRum thamakkuriyar anpudaiyOr
enRum uriyar piRarkku.

PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 10:48 pm Post subject: Re: nanRi Reply with quote

"bis_mala"

vaLLuvan thannai ulakinukkE than-thu
vAnpukaz koNda --

vaLLuvan thannai ulakinukkE than-thu
vAnpukaz koNda............................................. ............ -------------- ???

thamizmakkaL enRu ..... ........................ thamizmakkaLA???... !!!....thamizn-Adu?

nanRi.

thamiz- ulakamAn-than pArathi soRkaLil thavaRA?.... vaLLuvanaip peRRuth-than-tha n-Adu thamizn-Adu thAnE?

mayilApuri thamizn-Addil thAnE uLathu?

---------------------------------
Miss S~mala

[tfmlover]

very kind of you bis mala .i got it

thanks dear

All lands and towns are learner's own
Why not till death learning go on!

Glory and grace will go away
When savants silly nonsense say

i guess valluvar said the above too , lets glory and learn pls

[paulthomas]

[tscii:561a81f734]Friends,

Most of the response against my posting were more of emotional and not a research and Truth Oriented.

¸¡ó¾¢ Åý¨¼Â÷,À¢Š.ÁÄ- both do not agree with the Regular Interpretations of Tirukural done over the Millennium, but surprisingly do not agree with Dr.M.Deivanayagam, founder of Dravidian Religious Movement.

Bobeto, You think Dr.Deivanayagam, got his Phd., just like that.

Deivanayagam, from Pavanar School, took all the major commentators of Kural, mainly the Thani-Tamil movement and Dravidian Rationalist Commentaries, and brought the Correct Meaning of Tirukural as A Bible Oriented Christian Book.

Deivanayagam’s first book was titled, “¾¢ÕÅûéÅ÷-¸¢È¢Š¾Åá?”- Released by Respected Tamil Dravidian Scholar- and then Minister for Health in M.Karunanithi Govt. R.NEDUNCHEZHIAN. i.e. in 1969, then Chief Minister and Highly valued Tamil Perarignar-KALAIGNAR M.Karunanithi has given a foreword to the book. Mylapur Santhome Church Archbishop also has given a foreword to it. Most of his books have been released by high ranking Dravidian Ministers.

Deivanayagam was using the Interpretaions of Pavanar and Panmozhi Pulavar Appathurai, for his thesis. Deivanayagam used the same Techinique of Tamil Interpretation, being called ETYMOLOGY, and as THANI-TAMIL and Dravidian movement Scholars said and I quote from Bis.mala-
“The purpose of etymology is to arrive at a proper definition of the word or to understand its correct meaning. True appreciation follows from correct understanding. The purpose of literary research is to lead to true appreciation of our language and literature. “
This is exactly what Dr.M.Deivanayagam did and brought the Truths.
Tiruvalluvar wrote Kural to Preach Bible.

I give the views of Highly Regarded PanMozhiPulavar-APpadurai who gave AüÚôÀÎòÐõ ¯¨Ã-º¢Ã¢Ââý áö¸Ç¢ø ¿¡ý ¾É¢ôÀð¼ ®ÎÀ¡Î ¦¸¡ñÎû§Çý. É¡ø «¾üÌ ¸¡Ã½õ «Å÷ ÓÊÒ «ýÚ, «õÓʨÀ «¨¼Ôõ Ũ¸Â¢ø «Å÷ ¸¡ðÎõ ¿Î¿¢¨Ä¨Á §¸¡¼¡¾ ¾Õì¸Ó¨È¨ÁÔõ «Å÷ÑñÁ¡ñ ѨÆÒÄò¾¢ý ܦáǢ ãÄõ ¿ÁìÌì ¸¢ðÎõ ÒÐ ÒÐ ÅûéÅ ¦Áöõ¨Á¸Ù§Á." For the book “³ó¾Å¢ò¾¡ý ¡÷?”

All Dravidian friends, Dravidian Language speakers are from abroad, who came to India/Tamilnadu prior to 3000BCE, earlier than Aryans, who came after 3000 BCE. Tamil Wrting was derived from Asoka Brami, which was again derived from Biblic “Aramic script”

Thiruvalluvar wrote Kural to explain Bible-Thirumarai, let us accept the Truths.
In the same ³ó¾Å¢ò¾¡ý ¡÷?- had an «½¢óШÃ, by Rev.Dr. V.M.GNAna Prakasam Aadigal,. M.A., P.hd., from Loyala College-Tamil Research Institute, who wrote,
“ÅûÙÅ÷ áø «ÈëÄ¡ Á¨ÈáÄ¡ ±ýÈ §¸ûÅ¢ ±ØÅÐ ¯ñÎ. ÒÄÅ÷ ¦¾öÅ¿¡Â¸ò¾¢ý ÓÊ׸¨Ç «È¢»÷ ¯Ä¸õ º£÷àì¸¢î ¦ºôÀÉ¢ðÎ ²üÚì ¦¸¡ý¼¡ø “¾¢ÕÅûéÅâý ¾¢ÕìÌÈû “¾¢ÕÁ¨Èáø ±ýÚ
н¢ÂÄ¡õ.”
We can conclude, very clearly that Thiruvalluvar was taught Bible, by Saint.Thomas, disciple of Our Lord- Jesus Christ, and that Biblic idea was put in by Valluvar as Kural.

If Friends are interested, I am willing to discuss on Dr.Deivanayagam’s Truth findings in detail, and it is good that Bis.mala can support as claims to have fully read them. Bismala, Christianity is a Universal and True Divine Religion, and hence accepted by all over the world; so that Thirukural is claimed as belonging to all religions. But it is derived from Bible.

Friends, let us follow Thirukural and Bible, the original from which Kural came.

Thirukural is written from Bible, is the truth.

PaulThomas.
[/tscii:561a81f734]

[bis_mala]

[tscii:5a9b7bb110]
Quote:
//Most of the response against my posting were more of emotional and not a research and Truth Oriented.//

Sorry to have given you this impression. I am not emotionally involved with anything. In a particular response to your post elsewhere, you would have noticed that I re-edited my post. I always aim to have a balanced view of things.

Quote
//¸¡ó¾¢ Åý¨¼Â÷,À¢Š.ÁÄ¡- both do not agree with the Regular Interpretations of Tirukural done over the Millennium, but surprisingly do not agree with Dr.M.Deivanayagam, founder of Dravidian Religious Movement.//

Please proceed to use your debating or reasoning skills to make me and others agree. My mind is not closed to anything. I want to focus on the rationes behind any conclusion.

Quote
//Deivanayagam, from Pavanar School, took all the major commentators of Kural, mainly the Thani-Tamil movement and Dravidian Rationalist Commentaries, and brought the Correct Meaning of Tirukural as A Bible Oriented Christian Book.

Deivanayagam’s first book was titled, “¾¢ÕÅûéÅ÷-¸¢È¢Š¾Åá?”- Released by Respected Tamil Dravidian Scholar- and then Minister for Health in M.Karunanithi Govt. R.NEDUNCHEZHIAN. i.e. in 1969, then Chief Minister and Highly valued Tamil Perarignar-KALAIGNAR M.Karunanithi has given a foreword to the book. Mylapur Santhome Church Archbishop also has given a foreword to it. Most of his books have been released by high ranking Dravidian Ministers.//

I do not slight any of these intellectuals. Dr D must have put in quite a great deal of hard work into his thesis. I do not also decry his efforts.

Quote
//All Dravidian friends, Dravidian Language speakers are from abroad, who came to India/Tamilnadu prior to 3000BCE, earlier than Aryans, who came after 3000 BCE. Tamil Wrting was derived from Asoka Brami, which was again derived from Biblic “Aramic script”//

Give us more of the evidence. We’ll be surely glad to listen to you.

Quote
//If Friends are interested, I am willing to discuss on Dr.Deivanayagam’s Truth findings in detail, and it is good that Bis.mala can support as claims to have fully read them. //

Claims to have fully read Dr Deivanayagam? I do not make any such claims and I am not a researcher in this particular area of literature in which Christianity and VaLLuvar are interplayed. After my one or two posts, I was waiting to hear more from you, but you have drawn, apparently, an adverse inference from my posts and disappeared from my computer screen for quite a while. You could, in my opinion, have persisted and stood your ground with more evidence pouring forth from your case bag like an advocate in court. (sorry Paul, this is just a light-hearted comment).
I am not promising to agree, for that will depend, as it will for any other rational being; but I shall carefully listen, as I think the others too will. Please explain to us the basis of Dr D’s conclusions.

Please spell my name in Tamil as Á¡Ä¡ and not ÁÄ. Please amend your post. Thank you.

Quote
//Bismala, Christianity is a Universal and True Divine Religion, and hence accepted by all over the world; so that Thirukural is claimed as belonging to all religions. But it is derived from Bible.//

I understand this is your proposition for discussion. I am not anti-Christianity or anti-any religion. Kindly put forth your evidence for everyone to read. I am not in your way.

Quote
//Friends, let us follow Thirukural and Bible, the original from which Kural came.Thirukural is written from Bible, is the truth.//

Please proceed to enumerate and explain the proofs. I wish you all the best.

--------------------
ÌÁ¡Ã¢ B.I º¢ÅÁ¡Ä¡.
[/tscii:5a9b7bb110]

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear paulthomas!

There is no label of Pavanar School, Dravidian school, Aryan School, Christian School,Muslim School & Thanithamil school in the decipherment of truths.

There is one school which encourages definite findings and that is called 'unmai' (Truth) School and this is consolidated by Valluvar as 'Meipporul'- guiding by "epporul Yaar Yaar Vaaik Ketpinum apporul Meipporul" -way.

You are trying to artificially isolate the conformities of truths by labelling names
to various groups of thoughts, confusing others, zooming remote differences of these group of thoughts and Especially for the purpose of hiding the truths.

You first entered as solomon to curse Christians because they particularly Robert Galduwell & Burro who questioned Vedhic lies and explicited tamils antiquity in rational & radical way to the world!

You then cursed Thanithtamil movement & Dravidian movement because they further expanded the truths as social movement against your vedhic treacheries!

You took Ancheneyan Avatar to support Vedhic traditions Selective quotings.

And now you are taking Christian slot to make everybody in favour of Vedhic lies! This is called 'Oru Kallil Erandu Maangoi'. We will prove that christian Dr.Theiva nayakan view is wrong. You will take this to prove all Christian / Western thinking is wrong.

All form of your Vedhic protagonist Avatars have single point agenda of eulogising Vedhic traditions!

Gone are the days people followed foolishly Vedhic treacherous works!

Welcome Paul Thomas! put your views! If it has substance everybody will accept it.

f.s.gandhi

[paulthomas]

Friends,

I do not understand unwanted comments, and I leave them aside.

Happy Christmas to you all.

The book of Dr.Deivanayagam - based on his Phd thesis - Tirukural, Viviliam and Saiva Siddantha a comaprison was published by TN Govt.' International Institute of Tamil Studies, and this Phd moderatior was highly regarded Scholar-S.V.Subramanian.

This book is the One I want to discuss.

Mr.Deivanayagam established that Tirukural was book written to probagate Bible and to Preach Christianity.

I want all to understand this and to discuss on this, and as per Dr.Deivnayagam, entire Tamil knowledge is derived from the Preachings of Saint.Thomas.

Please confirm this. Dravidians as per Caldwell, Slater, Burrows etc., are the People who came to India with the Language from Outside India. So we cannot selectively take some Ideas and please do not harp on this. Let us discuss Tirukural and Deivanayagam's works.

PAULTHOMAS.

[bis_mala]

very kind of you bis mala .i got it

thanks dear

All lands and towns are learner's own
Why not till death learning go on!

Glory and grace will go away
When savants silly nonsense say

i guess valluvar said the above too , lets glory and learn pls


Hello (tfmlover)!! This is Mala wishing you Merry Christmas and a very happy new year. Same to FSG and all others.

tfm : Your kuRaL translation is wonderful.

[bis_mala]

Friends,

The book of Dr.Deivanayagam - based on his Phd thesis - Tirukural, Viviliam and Saiva Siddantha a comaprison was published by TN Govt.' International Institute of Tamil Studies, and this Phd moderatior was highly regarded Scholar-S.V.Subramanian.

This book is the One I want to discuss.

Mr.Deivanayagam established that Tirukural was book written to probagate Bible and to Preach Christianity.


PAULTHOMAS.

No point discussing, he has already got his degree. Set it aside as we have no degree-withdrawal powers!!

[paulthomas]

[tscii:f1b1033eb4]Friends,
Please allow me to quote from Dravidian Relgious Movement Founder, Pulavar Dr.M.Deivanayagam from his book ¿£ò¾¡÷ ¡÷?
þô¦À¡ØÐ Åó¾¢ÕìÌõ ÀòÐ Á¢¸ô ¦ÀâÂÐ. þô¦À¡ØÐ ¾¢ÕÅûÙÅ÷ ¸¢Ã¢Š¾Å ºÁ¢§Â ±ýÚ Åó¾¢Õ츢ÈÐ. þó¾ Å¢ÀòÐ Óý§É ÅÃÅ¢ø¨Ä. - Óò¾Á¢ú ¸¡ÅÄ÷-ÒÄÅ÷ ÌØò¾¨ÄÅ÷ ¸¢..¦À.Å¢º¢Å¿¡¾õ.(1971) ÅÕõ ÌÈØõ Àì¸õ 19, ÅûÙÅ÷ ñÎ ¸¢.Ó.31 ±É ¿¢ÚŢ ¦ÀâÂÅ÷¸Ç¢ø ´ÕÅ÷) Page-6 ¿£ò¾¡÷ ¡÷?

This book was released as per information in the invitation notice in the same book - page 1, Head PanMozhiPulavar-APpadurai
Book Released by Prof. Hon.K.Anazhagan, Health Minister
Vazhthhturai- Yogi- Suththananta Barathiar
Vurai: Prof. Thiru. K.T.Thiunavukkarasu. , madras Univarsity Tirukural Researc wing
Pulavar. Sanmugam Pillai. madras Univarsity Tirukural Researc wing
Thanks: V.M.GNAp Prakasam, Loyala College Tamil Research Dept.

Dravidian Relgious Movement Founder, Pulavar Dr.M.Deivanayagam, continues his work in the same way as Rev. Bishop Caldwell, G.U.Pope, Pavnar etc, for seving the Lord Jesus Christ and for the growth of Dravidian movement.

Dravidian Relgious Movement Founder, Pulavar Dr.M.Deivanayagam, continues his work, by making his disciples get further P.hd., and M.phil. etc., to confirm that Tamil bakthi movement of Saivism and Vaishnavism by Nayanmars and Alwars are inspired by Our Lord- Jesus Christ’s Disciple Saint.Thomas Teaching of Bibles and that Tiruvalluvar wrote Kural to probagate, True Historical visit of God as Human, Jesus Christ, who gave his life and blood as Sacrifice, to purify all the Sins of the Humanity and also the Birth Sin we carry due to Adam- the first man having disobeyed God’s word and had intercourse, and Humanity came in. Lord Jesus Christ saves us from all our Sins.
Dravidian Relgious Movement Founder, Pulavar Dr.M.Deivanayagam; explains all this in his book- ±ØÀ¢ÈôÒ; and his other books include
³ó¾Å¢ò¾¡ý ¡÷?
“¾¢ÕÅûéÅ÷-¸¢È¢Š¾Åá?”-
º¡ý§È¡÷ ¡÷?
¿£ò¾¡÷ ¡÷?
Å¡ý ±Ð?
¦Áö¸ñ¼¡÷ «ÕǢ º¢Å»¡É §À¡¾õ, Å¢Çì¸×¨Ã
«Õð¦ºøÅõ ¡Ð?
And ofcourse his Monumental Research Thesis book:-
ŢŢĢÂõ - ¾¢ÕìÌÈû - ¨ºÅº¢ò¾¡ó¾õ- ´ôÀ¡ö×
In this book he relates Saivam with Bible, Later HIS Daughter Tamil Pulavar-Dr.D.Devakala Jothimani; got a P.Hd. for relating Vaishnavam with Bible, and his other disciples continues this with the help of Madras Christian College and others; doing a marvelous work to probagate for Dravidian cause and for telling Tamil public on Lord. Jesus Christ.

I am surprised by attacks on me even from Dravdian Scholars as Mr.fsg and mala, Friends I am collecting information on them and putting here as I have only two of their books.

Dr.D.Devakala Jothimani, herself participated in few forums; as per my Search by Google, which any body can try.

Lord Jesus teachings were put in by Tiruvalluvar in Kural, I Shall give proper interpretations of Kural by Pulavar.Deivanayagam, from now on.

Paul Thomas.
[/tscii:f1b1033eb4]

[bis_mala]

Mr PaulThomas:

(deleted)



I am surprised by attacks on me even from Dravdian Scholars as Mr.fsg and mala

??

[Uppuma]

[tscii:f42f793c25]Dear Friends,

Thirukural refers to Vedas in several Kurals and names Hindu God names more than 25 times, and no single Christian name here.

Bis.mala says- I am unable to accept Dr Deivanayagam's views and his thesis…. The learned doctor's views are not unusually convincing to me for me to embrace it! Certain things are best left untouched”

Why Bismala- say your views on Pulavar Deivanayagam’s method- IF He is wrong or right. There is nothing in the world; that can’t be discussed.
Convince or Getconvinced, If one IS Wrong Who it is? Let us Analyse; I am collecting books of him. My views would be here shortly, may be from my retd.Professor Maam, herself.

PT- Please do not Boast about JESUS as Historical, and till date no single evidence- acceptable to Unbiased Scholar infavour of Gospel is received.
The Churches today uses Common Era and Before CommonEra, and not BC, AD as Christ is not historical and his year of birth and death are more than one within gospels. I do not want to go any further in to it, as I want to respect other Faiths, but as per Gospels Jesus remained as Jew till death and died Crying- MY GOD! MY GOD! Why you have abandoned me?

PT- It is absolutely not possible today with the latest informations coming from Archeology and other sources to date Thiruvalluvar beyond middle of 2nd Century or later, and Christianity entered INDIA, only from 4th Cen.
It would be ideal for us to put Deivanayagam’s views and discuss, and throw which ever is the wrong view.(Kamil Zevilabil dates Kural 575CE)
Uppuma.
[/tscii:f42f793c25]

[bis_mala]

[tscii:85e1d05bb3]Dear Friends,

Thirukural refers to Vedas in several Kurals and names Hindu God names more than 25 times, and no single Christian name here.

Bis.mala says- I am unable to accept Dr Deivanayagam's views and his thesis…. The learned doctor's views are not unusually convincing to me for me to embrace it! Certain things are best left untouched”

Why Bismala- say your views on Pulavar Deivanayagam’s method- IF He is wrong or right. There is nothing in the world; that can’t be discussed.
Convince or Getconvinced, If one IS Wrong Who it is? Let us Analyse; I am collecting books of him. My views would be here shortly, may be from my retd.Professor Maam, herself.

PT- Please do not Boast about JESUS as Historical, and till date no single evidence- acceptable to Unbiased Scholar infavour of Gospel is received.
The Churches today uses Common Era and Before CommonEra, and not BC, AD as Christ is not historical and his year of birth and death are more than one within gospels. I do not want to go any further in to it, as I want to respect other Faiths, but as per Gospels Jesus remained as Jew till death and died Crying- MY GOD! MY GOD! Why you have abandoned me?

PT- It is absolutely not possible today with the latest informations coming from Archeology and other sources to date Thiruvalluvar beyond middle of 2nd Century or later, and Christianity entered INDIA, only from 4th Cen.
It would be ideal for us to put Deivanayagam’s views and discuss, and throw which ever is the wrong view.(Kamil Zevilabil dates Kural 575CE)
Uppuma.
[/tscii:85e1d05bb3]



But please give your inputs and make it interesting.

Regards.

SIVAPERUMAAN LOVES ALL CREATURES , HUMANS and PLANTS.

kumaari Sivamaala.

[bis_mala]

There are roughly about 511 or more kuRaLs which can be compared or contrasted in substance and meaning between ThirukkuraL and Bagwat Gita.

The Gita was composed after RaamayaNa. There are references to Rama in Gita. "bavana bawathamasmi raama" says Gita.

Gita was also composed after the era of sangap pulavar Kapilar, "sitaanaam kapilO muni" says Gita, a clear reference to kapilar, the sangam Tamil poet.

Some kuRaL concepts found their way into Gita and this much is clear.
Is there anyone who has more informtion of this subject? Please comment.

There are no references to KrishNa in kuRaL. None on Rama, as far as it is known. But there is reference to Indra in kuRaL.

Please feel free to comment on the above preliminary view.

[haran]

[tscii:0be66a0ff3]"¦À¡È¢Å¡Â¢ø ³ó¾Å¢ò¾¡ý ¦À¡ö¾£÷ ´Øì¸
¦¿È¢ ¿¢ýÈ¡÷ ¿£Î Å¡úÅ¡÷"

þ¾¢ø ÅÕõ '³ó¾Å¢ò¾¡ý' ÀüÈ¢ò¾¡§É ¿ñÀ÷ §¸ðÊÕó¾¡÷. ¦Áö, Å¡ö, ¸ñ, ãìÌ, ¦ºÅ¢ ±Ûõ ³óÐ ÒÄý¸ÙìÌõ, ¦À¡È¢¸Ç¡É °Ú, ͨÅ, ´Ç¢, Á½õ, ´Ä¢ ±Ûõ ³ó¾¢¨ÉÔõ «Å¢ò¾Åý(who destroyed) ³ó¾Å¢ò¾¡ý. þ¾É¡ø «Åý ÁÉõ «Æ¢Â, ¦À¡ö Ţĸ, ÓبÁÂ¡É ´Øì¸ ¦¿È¢Â¢ø ¿¢ýÚ ¿¢¨Ä¦ÀüÚ Å¡úÅ¡ý. þì¸ÕòÐ ¨ºÅõ, ¨Å½Åõ, Òò¾õ, ¨ƒÉõ ±øÄ¡ÅüÚìÌõ ¦À¡ÐÅ¡ÉÐ. ¬É¡ø ¸¢ÕòÐÅõ þ¾¨É ÅÄ¢ÔÕò¾Å¢ø¨Ä ±É ¿¢¨É츢§Èý.

«ýÒ¼ý,
†Ãý.[/tscii:0be66a0ff3]

[karuvaadu]

There are no references to KrishNa in kuRaL. None on Rama, as far as it is known. But there is reference to Indra in kuRaL.

Please feel free to comment on the above preliminary view.

This means that raamayaNa is just a fairy tale!

[devapriya]

[tscii:32daecdbb2]Valluvar Said this, for an Uneducated man, to wishing to speak in an educated people forum is like a Girl without any breasts who wants to show her beauty. The show by a Breastless lady would not be attractive and similarly the Man without proper Knowledge to speak.

Kallathaan Sol Kaamuruthal mulai irandum
IllaathavaL peN kaamuRRARRU.— Kural 402.
¸øÄ¡¾¡ý ¦º¡ü¸¡ ÓÚ¾ø ӨĢÃñÎõ
*øÄ¡¾¡û ¦Àñ¸¡Óü ÈüÚ. 402

Friends, Dr.Deivanayagam, with the Church funding exploited the Political and Practical Situation of the Day, with the Rationalist’s Government, and domination and the extreme eagerness on every Tamil Scholar to write differently Kural was given lot of interpretations un-acceptable; but as most used the Terms- Tamils or Dravidian- Proper protest were not made, and Deivanayagam, took various interpretations of Tirukural and selected what suits him and made a Theory. Deivanayagam also Twisted Bible for this purpose.

Thiruvalluvar refers many Vedic and Puranic Gods. Indiran was one, Lakshmi- wife of Lord Vishnu is referred in many Kurals.
The world where Lord Vishnu stays is referred as Vaikundtam and Valluvar calls it as Tamarai Kannan Vualgu. Valluvar also uses the term Adialanthan- referring the Thiruvikrama Avatharam.
Valluvar specifically avoids using direct God names in Kadavul VAzhthu, but most of them represent Hindu Purana Traditions, but surprisingly even does not have Murugar or Korravai referred in Tholkappiyam.
Valmiki Ramayan is dated to around 1000BCE, and Mahabaratha to 600 CE, however Critical Scholars put Geetha as later around 100BCE to 200CE.
But Valluvar cannot be dated earlier than even the Critical dating as Valluvar could be 3rd Century CE, or later only. Thiuvalluvamalai further tells lot of information on this, that Thiruvalluvar wrote Thirukural to give Ideals of Vedas, to Tamils in Tamil.
devapriya
[/tscii:32daecdbb2]

[bis_mala]

There are no references to KrishNa in kuRaL. None on Rama, as far as it is known. But there is reference to Indra in kuRaL.

Please feel free to comment on the above preliminary view.

This means that raamayaNa is just a fairy tale!

This was what I was told when I went into a Lanka discussion forum some time back, telling them Ramaayanam was proof that Tamis were in Sri Lanka from antiquity.

According to Prof Vanamaamalai, Ramaayaana stories were old tales, collected and presented as epic by Vaalmiki!!

[KoH]

But please give your inputs and make it interesting.

Regards.

SIVAPERUMAAN LOVES ALL CREATURES , HUMANS and PLANTS.

kumaari Sivamaala.

Why did not you add Uppuma to the Creatures, Humans and plants? Is it because uppumaa is created in the Kitchen and with kurunaaz (correct?)?

[bis_mala]

But please give your inputs and make it interesting.

Regards.

SIVAPERUMAAN LOVES ALL CREATURES , HUMANS and PLANTS.

kumaari Sivamaala.

Why did not you add Uppuma to the Creatures, Humans and plants? Is it because uppumaa is created in the Kitchen and with kurunaaz (correct?)?

I like the kuRuna uppuma. Also ravaa uppuma.

Devipriya wrote:


Thiruvalluvar refers many Vedic and Puranic Gods. Indiran was one, Lakshmi- wife of Lord Vishnu is referred in many Kurals.
The world where Lord Vishnu stays is referred as Vaikundtam and Valluvar calls it as Tamarai Kannan Vualgu. Valluvar also uses the term Adialanthan- referring the Thiruvikrama Avatharam.
Valluvar specifically avoids using direct God names in Kadavul VAzhthu, but most of them represent Hindu Purana Traditions,

I like Devipriya, Such a nice name.

Let's hear from her some evidence for the cited passage from her posting presently, whilst consuming uppuma or whatever -ma for breakfast.

Devipriya, please carry on. I am all ready to hear.......

[bis_mala]

[tscii:9cd7412883]¾¢ÕìÌÈû Ò¾¢Â ¯¨Ã, §ÀẢâÂ÷: Dr ¿Åሠ¦ºø¨Ä¡, M.A., D.Ltt., D. Ed. ±Ø¾¢ÂÐ. þ¾ýÀÊ:

«ó¾½ý = ?

«ÈÅ¡Æ¢ «ó¾½ý: (ÌÈû 8) ¸ð¼¨Ç þθ¢È ÅøĨÁ ¦ÀüÈ ÌÕ.

«ó¾½÷ ±ý§À¡÷ «È§Å¡÷: (ÌÈû: 30). «Æ¸¢Â ¾£ÀÁ¡¸ ´Ç¢÷(ÀÅ÷).
À¨Æ ¯¨Ã¸û: ÓÉ¢Å÷.

þÅ÷ ¯¨Ã «ÈòÐôÀ¡ÖìÌ ÁðΧÁ ¦ÅÇ¢ÅóÐûÇЧÀ¡ø (Nov.2000) §¾¡ýÚ¸¢ÈÐ. (ሧÁ¡¸ý À¾¢ôÀ¸õ, 8, §À¡Ä¢Š ÌÅ÷ð¼÷Š§Ã¡Î, T.¿¸÷, ¦ºý¨É, 600017, ¦¾¡¨Ä§Àº¢: 4342232).

If the commentary for porudpaal has been published, please let me know.Thanks[/tscii:9cd7412883]

[bis_mala]

[tscii:8169f98103]¬¾¢À¸Åý ±ýÀÐ Ýâ À¸Å¨Éì (À¸Å¡¨Éì) ÌÈ¢ôÀÐ ±ýÀÐ Ó¨ÉÅ÷ ¿Åሠ¦ºø¨Ä¡ «Å÷¸Ç¢ý Å¢Çì¸õ.

¬ >¬Ì > ¬ì¸õ (¬Ì +«õ)
¬ > ¬¾¢ (¬+¾¢). ¾¢ ±ýÀÐ suffix À¢ý¦É¡ðÎ «øÄРŢ̾¢.

±É§Å ¬¾¢ ±ýÀÐ ¾Á¢§Æ¡Ìõ ±ýÀÐ þÅ÷ ¸ÕòÐ ±ÉÄ¡õ.

¬ì¸§Á ¦¾¡¼ì¸õ. ¬¾¢§Â ¦¾¡¼ì¸õ.

þó¾î ¦º¡ø ¾Á¢úî ¦º¡øÄ¡ì¸ Ó¨È¸Ç¢ýÀʨÁó¾ ¦º¡øÄ¡Ìõ.

¬¾õ ±ýÈ ¦º¡ø¨ÄÔõ "¬" ±ýÈ Ó¾É¢¨Ä§Â¡Î þÅ÷ ¦¾¡¼÷Ò ÀÎòÐÅЧÀ¡ø ¦¾Ã¢¸¢ÈÐ.

À¸× + «ý = À¸Åý ±ýÚ À¢Ã¢òÐûÇ¡÷.

¦Á¡Æ¢»¡Â¢Ú §¾Å§¿Âô À¡Å¡½÷, ÒÄÅ÷ ÌÆó¨¾ ¬¸¢§Â¡÷ §À¡ø, þÅÕõ þ¡ø¨Ä «¨¼Â¡Çõ ¸ñÎûÇ¡÷ ±ýÀÐ ÌÈ¢ôÀ¢¼ò¾ì¸Ð.

Dr ¦ºø¨Ä¡ ÓõÓ¨È þó¾¢Â §¾º¢Â Å¢ÕÐ ¦ÀüÈÅ÷ ±ýÀÐõ ÌÈ¢ôÀ¢¼ò ¾ì¸Ð.[/tscii:8169f98103]

[bis_mala]

[tscii:c7746aa313]§ÀẢâÂ÷ ¿Åሠ¦ºø¨Ä¡ «Å÷¸Ç¢ý ¯¨Ã¢ø ÀÄ Ò¾¢Â §¸¡½í¸Ç¢Ä¢ÕóÐ ¦À¡ÕûÅ¢Çì¸õ ¦ºöÐûǨÁ ÒÄôÀθ¢ýÈÐ.
Áí¸Äõ ±ýÀ Á¨ÉÁ¡ðº¢ ±Û󦾡¼ì¸òÐì ÌÈÙìÌ, Áñ¸Äõ ±ýÈ À¡¼§Á ¦¸¡ñÎ ¯¨ÃÅÌòÐûÇ¡÷. «Å÷ À¡÷¨Å¢ø Áñ¸Äõ > Áí¸Äõ ±ýÚ ¦¸¡ñÎûÇ¡÷ §À¡Öõ.
[/tscii:c7746aa313]

[devapriya]

[tscii:1a63fd099d]Dear Friends,

We have a Peculiar situation; with Bismala wants to make Tiruvalluvar to say what they want to Mean and there by twisting Tirukural and Making it meaningless. I quote:
//«ó¾½ý = ?

«ÈÅ¡Æ¢ «ó¾½ý: (ÌÈû 8) ¸ð¼¨Ç þθ¢È ÅøĨÁ ¦ÀüÈ ÌÕ.

«ó¾½÷ ±ý§À¡÷ «È§Å¡÷: (ÌÈû: 30). «Æ¸¢Â ¾£ÀÁ¡¸ ´Ç¢÷(ÀÅ÷).
À¨Æ ¯¨Ã¸û: ÓÉ¢Å÷.//
Bismala can you show me a Single “À¨Æ ¯¨Ã¸û” either for Tirukural or THolkappiyam- like the one and name the Urai Asiriyar. you have said or the author you have claimed said. I have given you that as per Maxmuller and Gilbert Slater that Casteism is not the part of Vedas.

ÁÛÅ¢ø ÌÈ¢ì¸ôÀðÎ þýÚ ÅÆ츢ÖûÇ º¡¾¢ Ó¨È §Å¾í¸Ç¢ý Á¢¸ô ÀƨÁÂ¡É ºÁÂò ¾òÐÅí¸Ç¢ø þ¼õ ¦ÀÚ¸¢È¾¡? "þø¨Ä" ±ýÈ ´§Ã¦º¡øÄ¢ø ¿¡õ «¨¾ «Øò¾Á¡¸ ÁÚòÐÅ¢¼Ä¡õ. ¦ÀÕﺢì¸ø Å¡öó¾ º¡¾¢ «¨ÁôÒ Ó¨Èò ¾¢ð¼òÐìÌ §Å¾ Ýì¾í¸Ç¢ø ±ò¾¨¸Â ¾ÃÓõ þø¨Ä. «Ð §À¡Ä§Å Ýò¾¢Ãâý þÆ¢¾¨¸ ¿¢¨Ä¨ÁìÌ ¾¡Ã§Á¡; Àø§ÅÚ ÅÌôÀ¢É÷ ´Õí§¸ ÌØÁ¢ Å¡Æ, ´Õí§¸ ¯ñ½ô ÀÕ¸ò ¾¨¼ Å¢¾¢ìÌõ ±ó¾î ºð¼§Á¡; Àø§ÅÚ º¡¾¢Â¢É÷ ¾õÓû ´ÕÅÕ즸¡ÕÅ÷ Á½ ¯È× ¦¸¡ûŨ¾ò ¾ÎìÌõ ӨȨÁ§Â¡; «ò¾¨¸Â Á½ ¯ÈÅ¡ø ÅÕõ À¢û¨Ç¸ÙìÌ Å¢Äì¸ ÓÊ¡¾ ¾£ìÌȢ¢ðÎð ¾£ñøò¾¸¡¾ÅḠ´Ð츢 ¨ÅìÌõ ¸ðÎôÀ¡§¼¡; ±Ð×õ «ÅüÈ¢ø þø¨Ä. «òмý º¢Åý, ¸¡Ç¢ ¸¢ÂÅ÷¸Ç¢ý «îºó ¾Õõ ¦ºÂø Өȸ¨Çô ÀüÈ£§Â¡; ¸ñ½É¢ý º¢üÈ¢ýÀì ¸Ç¢Â¡ð¼õ ÀüÈ¢§Â¡; .. ... §Åò¾¢ø ´Õ ÍÅÎ Ü¼ì ¸¢¨¼Â¡Ð. ¸¼×ÙìÌâ Á¾¢ô¨Àò ¾¦Á¦¾Éì ¦¸¡ñÎ ÀÆ¢ÝØõ ´Õ ÌÕÁ¡÷ ÌØÅ¢ý Å£õÒâ¨Á¸û, ÁÉ¢¾ þÉò¾¢ý þøÄí¸¨Ç Å¢Äí¸¢Éí¸Ç¢Ûõ ¸¢Æ¡¸ þÆ¢× ÀÎòÐõ Ó¨È ¸¢ÂÅü¨È ¾Ã¢ìÌõ ±ó¾î ºð¼Óõ «ÅüÈ¢ø þø¨Ä. ÌÆó¨¾ Á½ò¾¢üÌ ¾Ã§Å¡, ÌÆó¨¾ Å¢¾¨Å¸û Á½ò¨¾ò ¾¨¼¦ºö§š ¸½Åý À¢½òмý ¯Â¢ÕûÇ ¨¸õ¦Àñ½¢ý ¯¼¨ÄÔõ ¨Åò¦¾Ã¢ìÌõ ¦À¡øÄ¡ô ÀÆì¸ò¨¾ ¾Ã¢Å¢ì¸§Å¡ «¾¢ø ´Õ Å¡º¸í Ü¼ì ¸¢¨¼Â¡Ð. þ¨Å ¡×õ §Å¾ò¾¢ý ¦º¡øÖìÌõ ¦À¡ÕÙì̧Á Á¡ÚÀð¼¨Å." Quote fr0m Maxmuler “þó¾¢Â ¿¡¸Ã¢¸ò¾¢ø ¾¢Ã¡Å¢¼ô ÀñÒ”- ¸¢øÀ÷𠺢§Äð¼÷, ¾Á¢ú ¸¡.«ôÀ¡Ð¨Ã. Àì¸õ 40,41.

NOW SAYINg this word is Tamil, by trying to work out some root, in most cases the pattern which is used does not consider the Historic Linguistics- the usage of the relevant period Sangam Literature or others. And whether these roots follow Tholkappiyam rules of WordS.
In most cases - No ? why You go by assumptions and not by Actual HISTORICAL Truths.

Now on Kurals where valluvar referred Anthanar, and what does it mean- there is no use quoting various Authors- who tells what MAla wants. For the Benefit of all Viewers - I take from Madurai Kamarajar University’s Kural Peedam established by Mu.Varadarajanar, and Peedam selected Lecturer. Selvi.Kamatchi Sinivasan, who was born in a Saivite family in Srilanka, came to India, served various collages before Joining the Kural Peedam. She had converted to Christianity also. She was of highest repute for integrity, and Peedam asked her to bring Books

1. ÌÈû ÜÚõ ºÓ¾¡Âõ
2. ¾¢ÕÌÈÙõ ŢŢĢÂÓõ (Tirukural and Bible)
3. ÌÈû ÜÚõ ºÁÂõ ( Religion of Tirukural) and One more also.

The books were published by Peetam after the death of the Author, i.e., the views represented edited by A team of Experts who made final Edition.
The Author was selected for Her Strict Integrity, being a Christian Convert- as that was the time Deivanayagam was making with the political support of DMK rule and Pavanar links that Tiruvalluvar was Christian and Tirukural is a book based on Bible. The end result was that the Author Madam lost her beliefs on Christianity on researching Bible. Now let me come to the references of Anthanar in this.


«ó¾½÷ ±ý§À¡÷ «È§Å¡÷Áü ¦Èù×¢÷ ìÌõ
¦ºó¾ñ¨Á âñ¦¼¡Ø¸ Ä¡ý. 30

The author of the book analysises the Relligious situation in Tholkappiyam to and takes all references of every song in Sangam Literature, Tholkappiyam, Silapathikaram and Manimekhalai and confirms the research view.

I QUOTE:
«ó¾½÷ Ñ¡üÌõ «Èò¾¢üÌõ ¾¢Â¡ö
¿¢ýÈÐ ÁýÉÅý §¸¡ø. 543

«ó¾½÷ ±ýÛõ ¦º¡üÌ ±ù×¢÷Ìõ ¦ºó¾ñ¨Á âñ¦¼¡Ø̧š÷ ±É ÅûÙÅ÷ ÜȢɡá¢Ûõ þíÌ «î¦º¡ø À¢ÃÁ¡½¨Ãì ÌÈ¢ôÀ¾¡¸ì ¦¸¡ûŦ¾ ¦À¡ÕóÐõ. «ó¾½÷ áø ±ýÀÐõ §Å¾õ ӾĢ ºÁÂëø¸¨Ç§Â ±ÉÄ¡õ. þùÅ¡§È À¨Æ ¯¨Ã¡º¢Ã¢Â÷¸û «¨ÉÅÕõ ¦À¡Õû ¦¸¡ñ¼É÷.
«Ú¦¾¡Æ¢§Ä¡÷ ±É º¢Ã¢Â÷ ÌÈ¢À¢ð¼Ðõ À¢ÃÁ¡½÷¸¨Ç§Â ¡¾¡ø §ÅñÎõ. µ¾ø, µÐÅ¢ò¾ø, §Åð¼ø, §ÅðÀ¢ò¾ø, ®¾ø ²üÈø ±ýÛõ Ú ¦¾¡Æ¢ø¸û «Å÷ìÌâ ±ýÀÐ ºí¸ ¸¡Äò¾¢ø Óý¦À ÅÌì¸ôÀð¼Ð. þùÅ¡Ú ¦¾¡Æ¢ø¸û À¾¢üÚÀò¾¢ÛûÙõ ÌÈ¢ôÀ¢¼ôÀðÎûÇÉ.

µ¾ø §Åð¼ø «¨ÅÀ¢È÷î ¦ºö¾ø
®¾ø ²üÈø ±ýÚ ÚÒâóÐ ´ØÌõ
«Èõ Òâ «ó¾½÷ .. .. À¾¢üÚÀò¾Ð 24.
¦¾¡ø¸¡ôÀ¢ÂÕõ
“ «ÚŨ¸ôÀð¼ À¡÷ôÀÉô Àì¸Óõ ¦º¡ø-75
±Éô À¡÷ôÀÉâý «Ú¦¾¡Æ¢¨Äì ÌÈ¢ôÀ¢ð¼¡÷. §Å¾õ ӾĢ ºÁÂáø¸¨Çì ¸üÀÐ º¢ÈôÀ¡¸ «ó¾½÷ (À¢ÃÁ¡½÷) ¸¼¨Á ±É «ì¸¡ÄòÐ ¿¢ÄŢ ¸Õò¨¾ ÅûÙÅÕõ ²üÚì ¦¸¡ñ¼¡÷ §À¡Öõ.
µÐÅ¢ò¾Öõ «Å÷¸û ¦¾¡Æ¢ø ¨¸Â¢É¡ø «ó¾½÷ «øÄ¡¾ À¢È÷ìÌõ
(ÁýÉÅ÷ Ž¢¸÷ ÌÄò¾Åá?) §Å¾õ ӾĢ áø¸¨Çì ¸üÀ¢òòÅ÷ ±Éì ¸Õ¾Ä¡õ.

ÀÂý ÌýÚõ «Ú¦¾¡Æ¢§Ä¡÷ Ñ¡øÁÈôÀ÷
¸¡ÅÄý ¸¡Å¡ý ±É¢ý. 560

Áì¸û Å¡ú쨸¢ø §Å¾õ ӾĢ º¨ÁÂáü¸øÅ¢ìÌ þ¼õ ¯ñÎ, «¨Å Áì¸ðÌ ¿ý¨Á ÀÂôÀÉ ±ýÈ ¸ÕòÐ ²üÚì ¦¸¡ûÇô ÀΞɡ§Ä§Â «Åü¨È ¾Ã¢ôÀÐ ÁýÉÉ¢ý ¸¼¨Á¡¢üÚ.
¸¡ÅÄý ¸¡Å¡¦ÉÉ¢ý «Ú¦¾¡Æ¢§Ä¡÷ Ñ¡øÁÈôÀ÷ ±É ±îºÃ¢ì¸ô ÀÎÅÐõ ºÁ áø¸û ÁÈì¸ô Àξø ºÓ¾¡Âò¾¢üÌ §¸Î ±Éì ¸Õ¾ô ÀΞɡ§Ä§Â.

ÁÈôÀ¢Ûõ µòÐì ¦¸¡ÇÄ¡Ìõ À¡÷ôÀ¡ý
À¢Èô¦À¡Øì¸í ÌýÈì ¦¸Îõ. 134

þìÌÈû À¡÷ôÀ¡¨ÃÔõ «Å÷ µÐõ §Å¾ò¨¾Ô§Á ÌȢ츢Ȧ¾ýÀÐ ¦¾Ç¢×. “ÁÈôÀ¢Ûõ µòÐì ¦¸¡ÇÄ¡Ìõ” (134) ±ýÈ ¦¾¡¼Õõ À¡÷ôÀ¡ý µò¨¾(§Å¾õ µ¾ì¸üȨ¾) ÁÈò¾Ä¡¸¡Ð. ´Õ¸¡ø ÁÈôÀ¢Ûõ Å¢¨ÃÅ¢ø ¾¢ÕõÀ µ¾¢ì ¸üÚì ¦¸¡ûÇø §ÅñÎõ ±ýü ¸Õò¨¾ò ¾Õõ
Àì¸õ-194,195.

On Kural which was interpreted as Valluvar being against Vedas, the Peedam Author again confirms

«Å¢¦º¡Ã¢ó ¾¡Â¢Ãõ §Åð¼Ä¢ý ´ýÈý
¯Â¢÷¦ºÌò Ðñ½¡¨Á ¿ýÚ. 259
¾£ ãðÊ ¦ºöÂô ÀÎõ §ÅûÅ¢¨Âì â ÅÆ¢À¡Î ӨȨ§ ÌÈ¢ôÀ¢¼ô Àθ¢ýÈÐ. §¾Å÷¸ÙìÌ ¯½Å¡¸ò ¾£Â¢Ä¢¼ÀÎõ ¦À¡Õ¨Ç§Â ż¦Á¡Æ¢Â¢ø †Å¢Š ±ýÀ÷, «Ð§Å ¾Á¢Æ¢ø “«Å¢” ¡¢üÚ, .. «Å¢ô¦À¡Õû¸¨Ç ¦¿ÕôÀ¢ø ¦º¡Ã¢óР¢Ãõ §ÅûÅ¢ ¦ºöŨ¾ Å¢¼ ´ýÈ¢ý ¯Â¢÷ ¦ºÌòÐ «¾ý °¨É ¯ñ½¡¨Á ¿ýÚ ±É ÅûÙÅ÷ þíÌ ÜȢɡ÷. þ¾É¡ø §ÅûÅ¢ ¾£ÂÐ ±É ÅûÙÅ÷ ¸Õ¾¢É¡÷ ±Éø ÌÁ¡? §ÅûÅ¢¨ÂÔõ ¿øľ¡¸ì ¸Õ¾¢ò¾¡§É §ÅûÅ¢ ¦ºö¾¨Ä Å¢¼ì ¦¸¡øÄ¡¨Á ¿ýÚ ±ýÈ¡÷. .. .. â §ÅûÅ¢ì¸Çò¾¢Ö§Á ¯Â¢÷즸¡¨ÄÔõ Å¢ÄíÌÀÄ¢Ôõ þø¨Ä. ÀÍ¡¸õ ±ÉôÀÎõ º¢Ä §ÅûÅ¢¸Ç¢ø ÁðΧÁ Å¢ÄíÌÀÄ¢ÂÇ¢ôÀ÷. ¦¿ö, À¡ø, ¾¡É¢Âí¸û ¾¡É¢Âí¸Ç¢É¡ø ¦ºöÂôÀð¼ ¯½×ô ¦À¡Õð¸û ¸¢ÂÅü¨È ¦¿ÕôÀ¢Ä¢ðÎõ §ÅûÅ¢¸û ¦ºöÅ÷ ( Author quotes this from " INDIA OF THE AGE OF THE BRAMANAS" book-iii, CHAP-2, The forms of Sacrifice- by Basu, Dr.Jogiraj.). ±É§Å ¯Â¢÷ì ¦¸¡¨Ä¢ýÈ¢ þùÅ¡Ú ¦ºöÂôÀÎõ §ÅûÅ¢¸û ÅûÙÅ÷ìÌ ¯¼ýÀ¡Î ±ý§È ¦¸¡ûÇÄ¡õ. Àì¸õ - 192,193.

FSG, Bismala, Idiyappam etc., has a peculiar problem, of denying the Indian Heritage, and the part played by every section of Indians.
Tiruvalluvar must be viewed by what Valluvar said, and Not by Misinterpretting Tirukural.
I intend to cover in History section of Indian Heritage- as to how Vedas are touched in Sangam Lit. and Tholkappiyam and also views of Pavanar etc., on this. I certainly do not believe Casteism is right or that any caste is superior, and though I Had this book for long, I did not want to put these, as Mala-FSG-iDIYappam-mahadevan etc., views in page no 6,7 as unwarranted blabbers need to be ignored, in spite of Anchaneya giving Verbatim of MuVa and others Vurais. As Mala started to quote again from Partial Author’s views, I have put this.
All references of Vetham, Naalvetham, Maarai etc, in Sangam Lit. only refers to Inidan Vedas, and I intend to give more on this in appropriate threads.
Leave Kural from these few Couplets if that is not to your liking. Ofcourse knowing these E.V.Ramasamy Naicker of Dravidian Movement said- “ ¦¾¡ø¸¡ôÀ¢Âý âÂì ÜÄ¢. â ¾÷Áò¨¾§Â ¾Á¢ú þÄ츽Á¡¸î ¦ºöРŢð¼ Á¡¦ÀÕõ ЧḢ.
¾¢ÕÅûÙÅý «ì¸¡Äò¾¢üÌ ²üÈ Å¨¸Â¢ø â ¸ÕòÐìÌ ¾Ã× ¦¸¡ÎìÌõ «ÇÅ¢ø ÀÌò¾È¢¨Åô ôüÈ¢ ¸Å¨Äô À¼¡Áø ¿£¾£ ÜÚõ ӨȢø ¾ÉÐ Á¾ ¯½÷§Â¡Î ²§¾¡ ÜÈ¢î ¦ºýÈ¡÷. ôì¸õ 7 ¾Á¢Øõ ¾Á¢ÆÕõ.
Take views of Valluvar on Vegetarianism and God fearing and speaking truths, please,and more and more evidences can be added, but please stop with misinterpretations.
DEVAPRIYA.
[/tscii:1a63fd099d]

[bis_mala]

[tscii:f0cb722b34]
FSG, Bismala, Idiyappam etc., has a peculiar problem, of denying the Indian Heritage, and the part played by every section of Indians.

OK, Devapriya aka Uppumaa aka Soloman!!

You must first determine when the BrahmaNas were first ordained and where.

Were they a section of the Tamil community, selected from within the community in the Tamil-speaking region or were they from outside Tamil areas?

You have to determine these and few other basic questions first.


We have a Peculiar situation; with Bismala wants to make Tiruvalluvar to say what they want to Mean and there by twisting Tirukural and Making it meaningless. I quote:
//«ó¾½ý = ?

«ÈÅ¡Æ¢ «ó¾½ý: (ÌÈû 8) ¸ð¼¨Ç þθ¢È ÅøĨÁ ¦ÀüÈ ÌÕ.

«ó¾½÷ ±ý§À¡÷ «È§Å¡÷: (ÌÈû: 30). «Æ¸¢Â ¾£ÀÁ¡¸ ´Ç¢÷(ÀÅ÷).
À¨Æ ¯¨Ã¸û: ÓÉ¢Å÷.//
Bismala can you show me a Single “À¨Æ ¯¨Ã¸û” either for Tirukural or THolkappiyam- like the one and name the Urai Asiriyar. you have said or the author you have claimed said. I have given you that as per Maxmuller and Gilbert Slater that Casteism is not the part of Vedas.

I have already said in my post that Dr Navaraj Chelliah's urai is "Puthu Urai". He is not following any old commentary. So why do you bring in the old commentaries, I do not understand. You are not prevented from reading old commentaries. You are free to do so. Si what's your problem?[/tscii:f0cb722b34]

[bis_mala]

[tscii:b8ff4859af]//ÁÛÅ¢ø ÌÈ¢ì¸ôÀðÎ ..........................................“þó¾¢Â ¿¡¸Ã¢¸ò¾¢ø ¾¢Ã¡Å¢¼ô ÀñÒ”- ¸¢øÀ÷𠺢§Äð¼÷, ¾Á¢ú ¸¡.«ôÀ¡Ð¨Ã. Àì¸õ 40,41.//


What's the relevance? This thread is about kuRaL and not manu and vedas!!


//NOW SAYINg this word is Tamil, by trying to work out some root, in most cases the pattern which is used does not consider the Historic Linguistics- the usage of the relevant period Sangam Literature or others. And whether these roots follow Tholkappiyam rules of WordS.
In most cases - No ? why You go by assumptions and not by Actual HISTORICAL Truths. //

Is the word "anthaNar" a Sanskrit word according to you? What then is the root according to your historical linguistics? What are the Tolkaappiyam rules on words?
I have told you many times before that such words are not used in the casteist sense in Sangam Lit.

//§¾Å÷¸ÙìÌ ¯½Å¡¸ò ¾£Â¢Ä¢¼ÀÎõ ¦À¡Õ¨Ç§Â ż¦Á¡Æ¢Â¢ø †Å¢Š ±ýÀ÷,//

It is quite clear to me that avi means aviththal (thiiyiduthal). It is a Tamil word and not the other way round. You are probably the author of the book in disguise and under a different name!!

//«Ú¦¾¡Æ¢§Ä¡÷ ±É º¢Ã¢Â÷ ÌÈ¢À¢ð¼Ðõ À¢ÃÁ¡½÷¸¨Ç§Â ¡¾¡ø §ÅñÎõ.//

This is the writer's opinion. Anyone can express any opinion. It is a free world with freedom of speech.

Please do a research for me. Read the Rig Veda and find out if the six jobs (aRuthozil) is mentioned in it!! Then let me have the quotation.

//Leave Kural from these few Couplets if that is not to your liking.//

You leave it alone if it is not to your liking and please close shop.

[/tscii:b8ff4859af]

[bis_mala]

[tscii:8a596d9f8c]"§Å¾õ ¿¡ý¸¢Ûõ ¦Áö¦À¡ÕÇ¡ÅÐ" ±ýÈ ¦¾¡¼Ã¢ø, "¿¡ñ¸¢Ûõ" ±ýÀÐ "¿¡ý¸¢¨ÉÔõ ¸¼óÐ" «øÄÐ "¿¡ý¸¢¨ÉÔõ Å¢¼" ±ýÈ ´ôÀ£ðÎô ¦À¡ÕÇ¢ø Åó¾Ð ±ýÚ ÓýÒ ´Õ ¾¢Ã¢Â¢ø ¦¾Ã¢Å¢ò¾¢Õó§¾ý.

"¿¡ñ¸¢É¢É¢Ûõ" ±ýÚ Åó¾¡ø¾¡ý ´ôÀ£ðÎô ¦À¡Õû ±ýÚ º¢Ä÷ «È¢Â¡Ð ÁÚòШÃò¾É÷.

þô§À¡Ð «ôÀÊ ÁÚôҨà ¦ºöÅÐ ¾ôÒ ±ýÀ¨¾ Å¢ÇìÌÓ¸Á¡¸. þÕ ÌÈû¸¨Çò ¾Õ¸¢§Èý.

"¾õÁ¢ý¾õ Áì¸û «È¢×¨¼¨Á" ±ýÚ ¦¾¡¼íÌõ ÌÈÇ¢ø, ´Õ "þý" ÁðΧÁ Åó¾Ð. þý ±ýÈ ¯Õ§À¡Î ¯õ ÅÃÅ¢ø¨Ä.

"¾õÁ¢ü ¦Àâ¡÷ ¾¡Áá ´Ø̾ø
Åý¨ÁÔø ±øÄ¡õ ¾¨Ä".

¾õÁ¢ý ¦Àâ¡÷ ±ýÀÐ ¾õ¨ÁÅ¢¼ô ¦ÀâÂÅ÷ ±ýÈ ´À£ðÎô ¦À¡ÕÇ¢ø ÅÕ¸¢ÈÐ. þÃñÎ =þý §¾¨Å¢ø¨Ä ±ýÀÐõ þýÛ¼ý ¯õ §¾¨Å þø¨Ä ±ýÀÐõ ¦ÀÈôÀÎõ.
[/tscii:8a596d9f8c]

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Many times earlier in this thread the wrong meaning of kural expressed by Vedhic pratogonists were clearly explained by me with adequate historical & linguistic facts.

And Hats off :!: to bis_mala taking pains to explain now the exact meaning of kural in this thread.

One Vedha manthra that these pratogonists follow is "Repeating lies again and again will come believable truth". This has been done by them all along their propogation centuries to centuries. In world history "koyabales" of Nazi Germany is an example.

However, for sample, I want to give the exact meaning of "Aruthozilore" as under. Anybody who wants to know the exact meaning of kural kindly go through www.tamilvu.org. Readers can also follow this website for exact meaning of kural.

560 Ýðòù¢ °ù¢Á ñÁªî£ö¤«ô£ó¢ Ëù¢ñøð¢ðó¢
è£õôù¢ è£õ£ ªùù¤ù¢.

îñ¤ö¢ ñó¹¬ó - ë£. «îõ«ïòð¢ ð£õ£íó¢
è£õôù¢ è£õ£ù¢ âù¤ù¢ - è£î¢îø¢°ó¤ò Üóêù¢ °®è¬÷»ñ¢ Üõó¢è좰ð¢ ðòù¢ð´ñ¢ àò¤ó¤è¬÷»ñ¢ è£õ£ù£ò¤ù¢ ; Ýðòù¢ °ù¢Áñ¢ - Üõù¢ ï£ì¢´ Ýè¢èÀñ¢ ð£ô¢ °ù¢Áñ¢ ; ÜÁ ªî£ö¤«ô£ó¢ Ëù¢ñøð¢ðó¢ - ÜÁõ¬èî¢ ªî£ö¤ô¢ ªêò¢«õ£¼ñ¢ îî¢îñ袰ó¤ò Ëô¢ èø¢ð¬î Üô¢ô¶ ð£ó¢ð¢ð¬î õ¤ì¢´õ¤´õó¢.

ºï¢î¤ù °ø÷¤ô¢ ªè£´é¢«è£ôóêù¢ ï£ì¢®ô¢ ñ¬öªðò¢ò£¬ñ Ãøð¢ðì¢ì¶.

"õ¤²ñ¢ð¤ø¢ Á÷¤õ¦ö¤ ùô¢ô£ù¢ñø¢ ø£é¢«è
ð²ñ¢¹ø¢ ø¬ôè£í¢ ðó¤¶."

(°ø÷¢ . 19)

Ýîô£ô¢ «ñò¢ê¢êø¢ ¹ô¢ô¤ù¢ø¤ Ýè¢èÀñ¢ ð£ô¢îó£ . Üîù£ô¢ ªî£ìè¢èï¢ ªî£ì¢´ð¢ ð£ô¢ , îò¤ó¢ , «ñ£ó¢ , ªõí¢ªíò¢ , ªïò¢ âù¢Âñ¢ äõ¬èò¤ô¢ ñ£ï¢îªóô¢ô£ó¢è¢°ñ¢ ðòù¢ð좴õ¼ñ¢ Þù¢ø¤ò¬ñò£î Þòø¢¬è»í¾ Þô¢ô£ñø¢«ð£ñ¢ . °®ð¢ð£è¾ñ¢ àíõ£è¾ñ¢ ðòù¢ð´ñ¢ ð£½ñ¢ , àìø¢Å좬ìî¢ îí¤è¢°ñ¢ «ñ£¼ñ¢ , ͬ÷õ÷ó¢ê¢ê¤è¢ «èø¢ø ªïò¢»ñ¢ èô¢õ¤ èø¢«ð£¼è¢° ñ¤èî¢ «î¬õò£ù¬õ . èô¢õ¤ , Ëø¢èô¢õ¤»ñ¢ ªî£ö¤ø¢èô¢õ¤»ñ¢ âù Þ¼î¤øð¢ð´ñ¢ . Ëø¢èô¢õ¤»ñ¢ ðô ªî£ö¤ô£è¾ñ¢ ªî£ö¤ø¢èô¢õ¤»ñ¢ ðô Ëø¢Á¬øò£è¾ ñ¤¼î¢îô£ô¢ , Þ¼õ¬èè¢ èô¢õ¤¬ò»ñ¢ ÜÁõ¬èî¢ ªî£ö¤ô£è õ°î¢îùó¢ ºù¢«ù£ó¢.

"àö¾ ªî£ö¤«ô õ¬ó¾ õ£í¤èñ¢
õ¤ê¢¬ê ê¤ø¢ðñ¢ âù¢ø¤î¢ î¤øî¢îÁ
ªî£ö¤ô¢èø¢ð ï¬ìò¶ è¼ñ Ìñ¤."

âù¢ð¶ î¤õ£èóñ¢ . àö¾ âù¢ð¶ ªïêªõ£ö¤ï¢î ðùí¢¬èî£ö¤¬ô»ñ¢ îù¢Â÷¢ Üì袰ñ¢ . ªî£ö¤ô¢ âù¢Á õ¤îï¢î¶ ªïê¬õ . ܶ ð¤ø¢è£ôî¢î¤ô¢ àöõ¤ø¢°î¢ ¶¬íò£ù ðùù¢ ðè¢èî£ö¤ô¢èÀ÷¢ åù¢ø£ò¤ø¢Á.

"ªêò¢»ï¢ ªî£ö¤ªôô¢ô£ë¢ ê¦ó¢Éè¢è¤ð¢ ð£ó¢è¢° é¢è£ô¢
ªïò¢»ï¢ ªî£ö¤ø¢° ï¤èó¤ô¢¬ô" - ªñò¢ò£¶ «ð£ô¢
õ÷¢Àõù¢ õí¢ìñ¤öù¢ ñ£ùé¢è£î¢ ¶ð¢ªð¼¬ñ
ªè£÷¢÷«õ ªêò¢î£ù¢ °ø÷¢.

õ¬ó¾ æõ¤òñ¢, õ¤ê¢¬ê èô¢õ¤, õ¤ö¤-(õ¤®)- L, Vide-õ¤î¢(õ.) - õ¤î¢ò£ - õ¤î¢¬î - õ¤ê¢¬ê. ê¤ø¢ðñ¢ âù¢ø¶ äõ¬èè¢ ªè£ô¢ôî£ö¤¬ô.°òî£ö¤ô¢ äõ¬èè¢ ªè£ô¢½÷¢ åù¢ø£è¤ò èù¢ùî£ö¤½÷¢ Üì颰ñ¢ .è¼ñ 'Ìñ¤' âù¢ø¶ ðí¢¬ì ë£ôî¢¶ì¢ ê¤øï¢î ï£õï¢ôõ.ªî£ö¤ø¢°ó¤ò ñí¢µôèîè¢ è¼ñ ï¤ôñ¢ âù¢Áñ¢ , ªî£ò¢ò£¾ôèñ£è¤ò õ¤í¢µôèî Þù¢ðï¤ôñ¢ âù¢Áñ¢ ,ªè£í¢ìùó¢.ÜÁõ¬èî¢ ªî£ö¤ø¢°ñ¢ ðí¢¬ìî¢ îñ¤öèñ£è¤ò °ñó¤ ï£ì¢®ô¢ Ëô¢è÷¤¼ï¢îù.

'Ýðòù¢ °ù¢Áñ¢' âù¢ð¶, ñ¬öò¤ù¢¬ñò£ô¢ ï¤ôî¢î¤ô¢ õ¤¬÷»ñ¢ àí¾ ñ좴ñ¤ù¢ø¤ Ýõ¤ø¢²ó袰ñ¢ ð£½ñ¤ó£ ªîù¢ðî£ñ¢. Üîù£ô¢ ÜÁªî£ö¤½ñ¢ ï¬ìªðø£ âù¢øõ£Á.ºø¢Áñ¢¬ñ ªî£è¢è¶.

ðó¤«ñôöèó¢ ÜÁªî£ö¤«ô£¬óð¢ ð¤ó£ñíó£èè¢ ªè£í¢´, Üõ¢õ¿¬õ Þ¼ñ®ò£è¢è Üõ¬ó Üï¢îíó¢ âù¢Âë¢ ªê£ô¢ô£ø¢ °ø¤î¢¶, "ÜÁªî£ö¤ô£õù; æîô¢, æ¶õ¤î¢îô¢, «õì¢ìô¢, «õì¢ð¤î¢îô¢, ßîô¢,ãø¢øªôù õ¤¬õ.ð²è¢è÷¢ ð£ô¢°ù¢ø¤òõö¤ Üõ¤ò¤ù¢¬ñò£Âñ¢ ,ܶ ªè£´î¢îø¢°ó¤ò£ó¢ ñï¢î¤óé¢ èø¢ðªñù¢ðù æñò£Âñ¢, «õ÷¢õ¤ ïìõ£î£ñ¢; Ýè«õ õ£ùñ¢ ªðòªô£ô¢ô£ ªîù¢ðî£ò¤ø¢Á." âù¢Á îñ¢ Ýó¤òïë¢¬ê ªõ÷¤ð¢ð´î¢î¤»÷¢÷£ó¢. õ÷¢Àõó¢ îñ¤öøî«ò Þ颰 â´î¢¶è¢ ÃÁîô£Âñ¢ Ýó¤ò º¬ø¬òè¢ èí¢®î¢îô£Âñ¢, ð¤ó£ñíó¢ «õî«ñ£¶î¬ô»ñ¢ «õ÷¢õ¤õ÷ó¢î¢î¬ô»ñ¢ ð¼õ ñ¬öè¢°è¢ èóí¤òñ£èè¢ Ãø¤ù£ªóù¢ð¶ ðꢬêê¢ ªð£ò¢ò£ñ¢.

"Þòô¢¹÷¤...................ªî£è¢°".(545) âù¢Áñ¢,
"º¬ø«è£® .................ªðòô¢. (559) âù¢Áñ¢,

ªê颫è£ô£ì¢ê¤«ò ð¼õñ¬öè¢°è¢ èóí¤òªñù¢Á Ýê¤ó¤òó¢ ªî÷¤õ£èè¢ Ãø¤ò¤¼è¢è¾ñ¢ ,ܬî ñÁ Ýó¤ò «õî«õ÷¢õ¤«ò Üîø¢°è¢ èóí¤òªñù¢Á ðó¤«ñôöèó¢ à¬óè¢è Þìï¢îï¢î¶ îñ¤öó¢ Ü®¬ñî¢îù«ñòù¢ø¤ «õøù¢Á.ð¤ó£ñí¬ó ÜÁªî£ö¤«ô£ó¢ âù¢ð¶ Ýó¤ò ãø¢ð£«ìòù¢ø¤ îñ¤öó¢ ªè£÷¢¬èòù¢Á.ðó¤«ñôöèó¢ è¼î¢«î õ÷¢Àõóî£ò¤ù¢,

'Þòô¢¹÷¤ «õ÷¢õ¤ ò¤òø¢Áõ£ ù£ì¢ì
ªðò½ñ¢ õ¤¬÷»Àï¢ ªî£è¢°.' âù¢«ø£
' ñ¬ø«è£® «õ÷¢õ¤ ñøð¢ð¤ ¬ø«è£®
ªò£ô¢ô£¶ õ£ùñ¢ ªðòô¢.' âù¢«ø£ ð£®ò¤¼ð¢ðó¢.
ªè£´é¢«è£ô£ô¢ ñ¬ö ªðò¢ò£¬ñ»ñ¢ ñ¬ö ªðò¢ò£¬ñò£ô¢

Ýðòù¢ °ù¢ø½ñ¢ Ýðòù¢ °ù¢øô£ô¢ ÜÁ ªî£ö¤ô¢ ïìõ£¬ñ»ñ¢ Ýè Ýê¤ó¤òó£ø¢ Ãøð¢ðì¢ì ï¤èö¢ê¢ê¤î¢ ªî£ì¬ó, ðó¤«ñôöèó¢ î¬ôè¦ö£è ñ£ø¢ø¤ Ýðòù¢ °ù¢øô£ô¢ «õ÷¢õ¤ ïìõ£¬ñ»ñ¢ «õ÷¢õ¤ ïìõ£¬ñò£ô¢ ñ¬öªðò¢ò£¬ñò¤ñ¢ âù õô¤ï¢¶ Ãø¤ò¤¼î¢îô¢ è£í¢è.
«ðó£.è£. ²ð¢ð¤óñí¤òð¢ ð¤÷¢¬÷ò£ó¢ 'Üø¤ªî£ö¤«ô£ó¢' âù¢Á ð£ìé¢ ªè£í¢´ , "è£õôù¢ è£õ£ù¢ âù¤ù¢- Üóêù¢ (àò¤ó¢è¬÷è¢) è£ð¢ð£ø¢ø£ù£ò¤ù¢;) Ýðòù¢ °ù¢Áñ¢ -ºòø¢ê¤ ªêò¢õ£ó¢è¢° Üñ¢ ºòø¢ê¤ò£½í¢ì£°ñ¢ Þòô¢ð£ù ðòù¢ Þô¢ô£ñø¢ «ð£°ñ¢ ;Üø¤ªî£ö¤«ô£ó¢ Ëô¢ ñøð¢ðó¢-Üø¤»ï¢ ªî£ö¤¬ô»¬ìò è¬ôëó¢ î£é¢èø¢øø¢ °ó¤ò Ëô¢è¬÷è¢ èø¢ð¬îî¢ ¬èõ¤´õó¢". âù¢Á ªð£¼÷¢ ÃÁõó¢.

In the above Devaneyap Paavaanar refers "Thivakaram Nikandu" - a dictionary of tamil which clearly specifies six types of people of six jobs.

f.s.gandhi

[Chappani]

Hello Mr. FSG,

Nice to see back in forum after a long time. I definetly felt void with your absence in this section. Please keep in constant touch with this section for the good of Tamil Enthusiasts like me...

Nandri, Vanakkam

[bis_mala]

Thank you FSG for the wonderful explanation and excellent references you have given. You have hit the nail right on the head and demolished the lies. It is our good fortune you found time to visit and explain. Best regards.

[stranger]

Here are 2 kuRaLgaL

epporuL yaar yaar vaay kEtpinum apporuL
meyporuL kaNbathaRivu


epporuL eththanmai yaayinum apporuL
meyporuL kaNbathaRivu


I find these two kuRaLs are almost same!

Anybody disagrees with me :?:

[bis_mala]

Here are 2 kuRaLgaL

epporuL yaar yaar vaay kEtpinum apporuL
meyporuL kaNbathaRivu


epporuL eththanmai yaayinum apporuL
meyporuL kaNbathaRivu


I find these two kuRaLs are almost same!

Anybody disagrees with me :?:

The first one refers to materials reaching you from others, whoever those persons are.

The second one refers to "whatever the inherent qualities, properties, or nature etc of a subject-matter before you for your consideration, analysis, opinion, treatment etc.,, " you should ascertain the "truth" contained in it. MeipporuL has a wider and deeper meaning than just "truth" and so I put in inverted commas.

The first one: is a "consumer rule".
The second one is an "originator rule".

That wld probably make it clearer.
I would not want to translate "meipporuL". The term also appeared in "vEtham naanginum meipporuL".

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Thanks Mr. Chappani & Miss. bis_mala. I always like to keep in touch with you friends. I went native TamilNadu for my vacation. I enjoyed pongal. I hope everybody enjoyed pongal.

I could not visit hub often because of my held up. Sorry!

f.s.gandhi

[stranger]

[
The first one: is a "consumer rule".
The second one is an "originator rule".



Thanks, mala :)

Well, I am fine, meyporuL means "truth".

"epporuL yaar yaar vaay kEtpinum" : I thought it meant an explanation offered by a someone or a statement given by someone ( a teacher or a critic or a parent or a lunatic or any genius including thiruvaLLuvar :)).

Dont worry who said that, just carefully see the "truth" no matter who says it.

Am I right or wrong here :?:

[bis_mala]

[
The first one: is a "consumer rule".
The second one is an "originator rule".


"epporuL yaar yaar vaay kEtpinum" : I thought it meant an explanation offered by a someone or a statement given by someone ( a teacher or a critic or a parent or a lunatic or any genius including thiruvaLLuvar :)).
Dont worry who said that, just carefully see the "truth" no matter who says it.Am I right or wrong here :?:

You are right; and the meaning can be expanded, "Yaaryaar vaaik kEtpinum" can be expanded to all kinds of hearsay, materials from any teacher or preacher or other persons directly instructing. and intermeddiaries through which such statements traverse.
vaai means mouth (oral) as well as "way" or "medium:, vaai > Latin via.

[stranger]

vaai means mouth (oral) as well as "way" or "medium:, vaai > Latin via.

So it is not just mouth here as I mentioned and it is more than that!

Thanks, I got you now! :smile2:

[bis_mala]

[tscii:5c7d609ada]Sorry, I had to attend to something in between and had to leave my desk for more than half an hour.

keetpinum : the word kEL refers to simple hearing of something as well as hearing instructions, discourses, lectures etc of higher quality.

Consider:

¸üÈÄ¢ü §¸ð¼ø ¿ýÚ,
¸üÈ¢Äɡ¢Ûõ §¸ð¸!
¦ºøÅòÐû ¦ºøÅõ ¦ºÅ¢î¦ºøÅõ. «î¦ºøÅõ....!

The main medium of imparting knowledge in the days of VaLLuvar and beyond was by listening to a guru than by reading. There weren't many copies of treatises to put one in every student's (for that matter any other's) hands. So VaLLuvar considered that it was (is) important to devote one kuRaL solely and specifically to cover such situations and events (The greater incidence of "kELvi" alone would demand a separate and specialized treatment of the matter, if not for any other reason. ). My guru ¾Á¢Æ¡º¢Ã¢Â÷ was quite clear on this point when I was reading and learning Tamil with him.

Also, kELvi ( a method of learning) was always contrasted with ¸øÅ¢ kalvi (another method of learning). The interaction between guru or aasiriyan and maaNavan was emphasized a great deal in Tamil tradition, (may be in other traditions too). (Even among the Chinese).

So, you go to a guru, he doesn’t give you a copy of Tolkaappiyam but gives you one verse a day and explains, whacks you so that you memorize it and do not forget it and in the end you have the whole Tolkaapiyam in your head and when you become a teacher yourself, you will instruct from your memory.....even if you do not have a copy of Tolkaappiyam which was enormous task in those days to make. Not everyone could write large volumes like that with the ±Øò¾¡½¢!

I have more to say on "kEtpinum". We shall discuss - some other time.

According to Confucius, people know a person from what he says. So a Chinese has a business talk with you, he will listen carefully, looking for hidden meanings, trying to understand you thoroughly.
[/tscii:5c7d609ada]

[stranger]

Do you read your tamil script??? I could not unless I cut and paste in the word and use e-kalppai to read.

How did you set up your fonts in internet option to read the tamil script given here???

Thanks! :)

[Uppuma]

[tscii:343fb1158e]Well done DEVAPRIYA,

HAVE BROUGHT THE HIGHEST AUTHORITY OF Tirukural Interpretation, If I REMember correct, M.Karunanidhi suggested for Universities to form Kural REsearch units and the Peetam was formed and you have got the excellent reference.

For the Benefit of all Viewers - I take from Madurai Kamarajar University’s Kural Peedam established by Mu.Varadarajanar, and Peedam selected Lecturer. Selvi.Kamatchi Sinivasan, who was born in a Saivite family in Srilanka, came to India, served various collages before Joining the Kural Peedam. She had converted to Christianity also. She was of highest repute for integrity, and Peedam asked her to bring Books

1. ÌÈû ÜÚõ ºÓ¾¡Âõ
2. ¾¢ÕÌÈÙõ ŢŢĢÂÓõ (Tirukural and Bible)
3. ÌÈû ÜÚõ ºÁÂõ ( Religion of Tirukural) and One more also.

The books were published by Peetam after the death of the Author, i.e., the views represented edited by A team of Experts who made final Edition.
The Author was selected for Her Strict Integrity, being a Christian Convert- as that was the time Deivanayagam was making with the political support of DMK rule and Pavanar links that Tiruvalluvar was Christian and Tirukural is a book based on Bible. The end result was that the Author Madam lost her beliefs on Christianity on researching Bible. Now let me come to the references of Anthanar in this.


«ó¾½÷ ±ý§À¡÷ «È§Å¡÷Áü ¦Èù×¢÷ ìÌõ
¦ºó¾ñ¨Á âñ¦¼¡Ø¸ Ä¡ý. 30

The author of the book analysises the Relligious situation in Tholkappiyam to and takes all references of every song in Sangam Literature, Tholkappiyam, Silapathikaram and Manimekhalai and confirms the research view.

I QUOTE:
«ó¾½÷ Ñ¡üÌõ «Èò¾¢üÌõ ¾¢Â¡ö
¿¢ýÈÐ ÁýÉÅý §¸¡ø. 543

«ó¾½÷ ±ýÛõ ¦º¡üÌ ±ù×¢÷Ìõ ¦ºó¾ñ¨Á âñ¦¼¡Ø̧š÷ ±É ÅûÙÅ÷ ÜȢɡá¢Ûõ þíÌ «î¦º¡ø À¢ÃÁ¡½¨Ãì ÌÈ¢ôÀ¾¡¸ì ¦¸¡ûŦ¾ ¦À¡ÕóÐõ. «ó¾½÷ áø ±ýÀÐõ §Å¾õ ӾĢ ºÁÂëø¸¨Ç§Â ±ÉÄ¡õ. þùÅ¡§È À¨Æ ¯¨Ã¡º¢Ã¢Â÷¸û «¨ÉÅÕõ ¦À¡Õû ¦¸¡ñ¼É÷.
«Ú¦¾¡Æ¢§Ä¡÷ ±É º¢Ã¢Â÷ ÌÈ¢À¢ð¼Ðõ À¢ÃÁ¡½÷¸¨Ç§Â ¡¾¡ø §ÅñÎõ. µ¾ø, µÐÅ¢ò¾ø, §Åð¼ø, §ÅðÀ¢ò¾ø, ®¾ø ²üÈø ±ýÛõ Ú ¦¾¡Æ¢ø¸û «Å÷ìÌâ ±ýÀÐ ºí¸ ¸¡Äò¾¢ø Óý¦À ÅÌì¸ôÀð¼Ð. þùÅ¡Ú ¦¾¡Æ¢ø¸û À¾¢üÚÀò¾¢ÛûÙõ ÌÈ¢ôÀ¢¼ôÀðÎûÇÉ.

µ¾ø §Åð¼ø «¨ÅÀ¢È÷î ¦ºö¾ø
®¾ø ²üÈø ±ýÚ ÚÒâóÐ ´ØÌõ
«Èõ Òâ «ó¾½÷ .. .. À¾¢üÚÀò¾Ð 24.
¦¾¡ø¸¡ôÀ¢ÂÕõ
“ «ÚŨ¸ôÀð¼ À¡÷ôÀÉô Àì¸Óõ ¦º¡ø-75
±Éô À¡÷ôÀÉâý «Ú¦¾¡Æ¢¨Äì ÌÈ¢ôÀ¢ð¼¡÷. §Å¾õ ӾĢ ºÁÂáø¸¨Çì ¸üÀÐ º¢ÈôÀ¡¸ «ó¾½÷ (À¢ÃÁ¡½÷) ¸¼¨Á ±É «ì¸¡ÄòÐ ¿¢ÄŢ ¸Õò¨¾ ÅûÙÅÕõ ²üÚì ¦¸¡ñ¼¡÷ §À¡Öõ.
µÐÅ¢ò¾Öõ «Å÷¸û ¦¾¡Æ¢ø ¨¸Â¢É¡ø «ó¾½÷ «øÄ¡¾ À¢È÷ìÌõ
(ÁýÉÅ÷ Ž¢¸÷ ÌÄò¾Åá?) §Å¾õ ӾĢ áø¸¨Çì ¸üÀ¢òòÅ÷ ±Éì ¸Õ¾Ä¡õ.

ÀÂý ÌýÚõ «Ú¦¾¡Æ¢§Ä¡÷ Ñ¡øÁÈôÀ÷
¸¡ÅÄý ¸¡Å¡ý ±É¢ý. 560

Áì¸û Å¡ú쨸¢ø §Å¾õ ӾĢ º¨ÁÂáü¸øÅ¢ìÌ þ¼õ ¯ñÎ, «¨Å Áì¸ðÌ ¿ý¨Á ÀÂôÀÉ ±ýÈ ¸ÕòÐ ²üÚì ¦¸¡ûÇô ÀΞɡ§Ä§Â «Åü¨È ¾Ã¢ôÀÐ ÁýÉÉ¢ý ¸¼¨Á¡¢üÚ.
¸¡ÅÄý ¸¡Å¡¦ÉÉ¢ý «Ú¦¾¡Æ¢§Ä¡÷ Ñ¡øÁÈôÀ÷ ±É ±îºÃ¢ì¸ô ÀÎÅÐõ ºÁ áø¸û ÁÈì¸ô Àξø ºÓ¾¡Âò¾¢üÌ §¸Î ±Éì ¸Õ¾ô ÀΞɡ§Ä§Â.

ÁÈôÀ¢Ûõ µòÐì ¦¸¡ÇÄ¡Ìõ À¡÷ôÀ¡ý
À¢Èô¦À¡Øì¸í ÌýÈì ¦¸Îõ. 134

þìÌÈû À¡÷ôÀ¡¨ÃÔõ «Å÷ µÐõ §Å¾ò¨¾Ô§Á ÌȢ츢Ȧ¾ýÀÐ ¦¾Ç¢×. “ÁÈôÀ¢Ûõ µòÐì ¦¸¡ÇÄ¡Ìõ” (134) ±ýÈ ¦¾¡¼Õõ À¡÷ôÀ¡ý µò¨¾(§Å¾õ µ¾ì¸üȨ¾) ÁÈò¾Ä¡¸¡Ð. ´Õ¸¡ø ÁÈôÀ¢Ûõ Å¢¨ÃÅ¢ø ¾¢ÕõÀ µ¾¢ì ¸üÚì ¦¸¡ûÇø §ÅñÎõ ±ýü ¸Õò¨¾ò ¾Õõ
Àì¸õ-194,195.

On Kural which was interpreted as Valluvar being against Vedas, the Peedam Author again confirms

«Å¢¦º¡Ã¢ó ¾¡Â¢Ãõ §Åð¼Ä¢ý ´ýÈý
¯Â¢÷¦ºÌò Ðñ½¡¨Á ¿ýÚ. 259
¾£ ãðÊ ¦ºöÂô ÀÎõ §ÅûÅ¢¨Âì â ÅÆ¢À¡Î ӨȨ§ ÌÈ¢ôÀ¢¼ô Àθ¢ýÈÐ. §¾Å÷¸ÙìÌ ¯½Å¡¸ò ¾£Â¢Ä¢¼ÀÎõ ¦À¡Õ¨Ç§Â ż¦Á¡Æ¢Â¢ø †Å¢Š ±ýÀ÷, «Ð§Å ¾Á¢Æ¢ø “«Å¢” ¡¢üÚ, .. «Å¢ô¦À¡Õû¸¨Ç ¦¿ÕôÀ¢ø ¦º¡Ã¢óР¢Ãõ §ÅûÅ¢ ¦ºöŨ¾ Å¢¼ ´ýÈ¢ý ¯Â¢÷ ¦ºÌòÐ «¾ý °¨É ¯ñ½¡¨Á ¿ýÚ ±É ÅûÙÅ÷ þíÌ ÜȢɡ÷. þ¾É¡ø §ÅûÅ¢ ¾£ÂÐ ±É ÅûÙÅ÷ ¸Õ¾¢É¡÷ ±Éø ÌÁ¡? §ÅûÅ¢¨ÂÔõ ¿øľ¡¸ì ¸Õ¾¢ò¾¡§É §ÅûÅ¢ ¦ºö¾¨Ä Å¢¼ì ¦¸¡øÄ¡¨Á ¿ýÚ ±ýÈ¡÷. .. .. â §ÅûÅ¢ì¸Çò¾¢Ö§Á ¯Â¢÷즸¡¨ÄÔõ Å¢ÄíÌÀÄ¢Ôõ þø¨Ä. ÀÍ¡¸õ ±ÉôÀÎõ º¢Ä §ÅûÅ¢¸Ç¢ø ÁðΧÁ Å¢ÄíÌÀÄ¢ÂÇ¢ôÀ÷. ¦¿ö, À¡ø, ¾¡É¢Âí¸û ¾¡É¢Âí¸Ç¢É¡ø ¦ºöÂôÀð¼ ¯½×ô ¦À¡Õð¸û ¸¢ÂÅü¨È ¦¿ÕôÀ¢Ä¢ðÎõ §ÅûÅ¢¸û ¦ºöÅ÷ ( Author quotes this from " INDIA OF THE AGE OF THE BRAMANAS" book-iii, CHAP-2, The forms of Sacrifice- by Basu, Dr.Jogiraj.). ±É§Å ¯Â¢÷ì ¦¸¡¨Ä¢ýÈ¢ þùÅ¡Ú ¦ºöÂôÀÎõ §ÅûÅ¢¸û ÅûÙÅ÷ìÌ ¯¼ýÀ¡Î ±ý§È ¦¸¡ûÇÄ¡õ. Àì¸õ - 192,193.

We need to look Tirukural as what Valluvar said and not what Fsg or his milder avatar Bismala wants in it.
Your Research has brought the cat out. well done.
Pavanar's interpretation itself is the best proof,as how he has moved away from his earlier book and totally written on false assumptions and without any Scriptural support from Sangam to Manimekhalai.

You have been using very different sources than what Brother Solomon used, can you check library and give how Pavanr as a Missionary duped Tamils in this falsehood interpretation and helped Deivanayagam

well done devapriya, the Authorities you have quoted are marvellous. continue.[/tscii:343fb1158e]

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Readers are requested to visit my post in this column on 10th August, 2005 for the forgery done by solomon/Uppuma.

As I said 'Koyabales' misleading propoganda continues by various Avatars of Solomon.

f.s.gandhi

[bis_mala]

Uppuma = Devapriya = Pavitra = Solomon = Ancheneya = PaulThomas. Keep on saying the same thing..

You said Maxmuller was paid to do his job!! Can you tell us who among those quoted by you had also been paid?

The term anthaNar during Sangam age did not refer to any BrahmaNas. Now it may or may not depending on context.

In the North, the word BrahmaNa itself did not mean a caste, in the beginning. It later became a closed group and rigid. In Tamil Nadu, when the BrahmaNas came after the Sangam Age in large numbers and settled, they took over the title anthaNar etc. Please read our posts in which we have explained.

There are no magical words in the kuRaLs and in other references quoted by you and all your avatars. AnthaNar is a simple word.

If you had quoted the author correctly, then, the author is simply wrong.
My interpretation is reaffirmed.

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear Miss. bis_mala,

I may write about the historical facts Pertaining to this in separate thread.

f.s.gandhi

[bis_mala]

[tscii:5c5d73a18c]Dear fsg,

¿¡õ ºí¨¸ °Ð§Å¡õ!!
¾Ã½¢ì¦¸¡øÄ¡õ ±ÎòÐ µÐ§Å¡õ!!
¬É¡ø, ¯ôÒÁ¡ «Å÷¸Ç¢ý¸¡Ð,
±ôÀʦÂýÚ ±ÉìÌò ¦¾Ã¢Â¡Ð!!

ÁüÈ ¿ñÀ÷¸û ÀÂɨ¼ÂðÎõ!! ±ÎòÐ¡øÖí¸û.[/tscii:5c5d73a18c]

[bis_mala]

Do you read your tamil script??? I could not unless I cut and paste in the word and use e-kalppai to read.

How did you set up your fonts in internet option to read the tamil script given here???

Thanks! :)

Hi, I just downloaded the Murasu Anjal Font, Ensure that Murasu Editor starts with your windows o.s. With that, I think there should not be a problem. Try....

Regards.

[devapriya]

[tscii:1af2b04aa3]Friends,

Thiruvalluvar wrote Kural during a period between Sangam Lit. and Twin Kaapiyams. Tholkaapiyam is written in the middle of The referred Sangam Lit.Period, say close 50-100BCE.
Tholkaapiyar has given very clear classification of Four Varna Classification of Indian Society and gives detail of each Branch its duties and denies most rights to the Fourth Varna. First Varna is named in Tholkaapiyam as Anthanar- Brahmins or AruThozilaar, the last meaning Shadakarma Nishadar. The earlier written before than TholKappiyam, PuraNanuru and all Sangam Lit calls them as Aruthozilar or Aruthozil Anthanar quiet frequently, and in most cases with references with Vedas and MaRais.

¦ºÚÅ¢ü âò¾ §ºÂ¢¾úò ¾¡Á¨Ã,
«Ú¦¾¡Æ¢ø «ó¾½÷ «ÈõÒâóÐ ±Îò¾
¾£¦Â¡Î Å¢ÇíÌõ ¿¡¼ý, Å¡ puram397

“§ÅÚ§ÅÚ º¢ÈôÀ¢ý §ÅÚ§ÅÚ ¦ºöÅ¢¨É
Ú «È¢ ÁÃÀ¢ý «È¢ó§¾¡÷ ¦ºöÔÁ¢ý “ Manimekhalai 1:55

“¡ôÒ ¯¨¼ ¯ûÇòÐ ±õ «¨É þÆ󧾡ý
À¡÷ôÀÉ ÓÐÁ¸ý ÀÊÁ ¯ñÊÂý ..

ż ¦Á¡Æ¢Â¡Ç¦Ã¡Î Åէšý ¸ñÎ ®íÌ..

"¡í¸Éõ Åó¾¨É ±ý Á¸û?" ±ý§È
¾¡í¸¡ì ¸ñ½£÷ ±ý ¾¨Ä ¯¾¢÷òÐ íÌ
µ¾ø «ó¾½÷ìÌ.. “ Manimekhalai 5

Å¡ÉÅ÷ §À¡üÚõ ÅÆ¢¿¢Éì ¸Ç¢ìÌõ
¿¡ýÁ¨È ÁÕí¸¢ý §ÅûÅ¢ô À¡÷ôÀ¡ý
«ÕÁ¨È ÁÕí¸¢ý «Ãº÷ì §¸¡í¸¢Â
¦ÀÕ¿ø §ÅûÅ¢ ¿£¦ºÂø §ÅñÎõ
¿¡¨Çî ¦ºöÌÅõ «È¦ÁÉ¢ø ý§È
§¸ûÅ¢ ¿øÖ¢÷ ¿£í¸¢Û ¿£íÌõ Silappathikaram 28:175-180

«ÕÁ¨È Âó¾½÷ íÌÇ÷ Å¡ú§Å¡÷
¦ÀÕ¿¢Ä ÁýÉ §À½ø¿¢ý ¸¼¦ÉýÚ Silappathikaram 26

ÒýÁ¢÷î º¨¼ÓÊô ÒÄá ×Î쨸
Óóáø Á¡÷À¢ý Óò¾£î ¦ºøÅòÐ
þÕÀ¢Èô À¡Ç¦Ã¡Î ¦ÀÕÁ¨Ä Âúý Silappathikaram 25

¿£Î¿¢¨Ä ÁÄÂõ À¢üÀ¼î ¦ºýÈ¡íÌ´ýÚÒâ ¦¸¡û¨¸ ÕÀ¢Èô À¡Ç÷Óò¾£î ¦ºøÅòÐ ¿¡ýÁ¨È ÓüÈ¢³õ¦ÀÕ §ÅûÅ¢Ôï ¦ºö¦¾¡Æ¢ø µõÒõ«Ú¦¾¡Æ¢ Äó¾½÷ ¦ÀÚÓ¨È ÅÌì¸
¿¡ÅÄí ¦¸¡ñÎ ¿ñ½¡ §Ã¡ðÊôÀ¡÷ôÀÉ Å¡¨¸ ÝÊ ²üÒÈ¿ý¸Äí ¦¸¡ñÎ ¾ýÀ¾¢ô ¦ÀÂ÷§Å¡ý¦ºí§¸¡ø ¦¾ýÉý ¾¢ÕóЦ¾¡Æ¢ø Á¨ÈÂÅ÷¾í¸¡ ¦ÄýÀ à§Ã «ùç÷ô Silappathikaram 23

µ¾ø §Åð¼ø «¨ÅÀ¢È÷î ¦ºö¾ø®¾ø ²üÈø±ý(Ú) ÚÒ¡¢ó(Ð) ´ØÌõ«ÈõÒ¡¢ «ó¾½÷ ÅÆ¢¦Á¡Æ¢ó(Ð) ´Ø¸¢»¡Äõ ¿¢ýÅÆ¢ ´Ø¸ô À¡¼øº¡Ýú PathiRRupattu-24ஆறு அறி அந்தணர்க்கு அரு மறை பல பகர்ந்து, தேறு நீர் சடைக் கரந்து, திரிபுரம் தீ மடுத்து, Kalithogai 1 and much more ..AruThozilar during Sangam and post Sangam Periods, i.e., during Valluvar days always referred Brahmins. Devaneyapavanar knew well and acknowledged it very clearly as in the verse quoted below, but Devaneya Pavanar a Christian as earlier Missionaries did tried to disintegrate the Hindu and the Godly Religion and Bismala I quote your words,
bis_mala wrote:
The following words and phrases in the first post by IndianXXX may be offensive to Muslims generally

The words of Devaneyan is totally upsurd and meaningless and higly speculative and offensive against Indian Integrity.

Agains Bismala quotes- //According to Prof Vanamaamalai,” //

Prof.Vanamamalai, a Communist Movement Scholar, has very clearly commented on the Thani-Tamil movement and about Tamil Chavunism very Ckearly and I give from his book ¾Á¢ú ÅÃÄ¡Úõ ÀñÀ¡Îõ, and his article in discussion was “¦Á¡Æ¢ôÀüÚõ ¦Á¡Æ¢¦ÅÈ¢Ôõ”

À¡Ã¾¢¾¡ºý À¡¼Ä¢ø- À¢È ¦Á¡Æ¢¸¨Ç ¦ÅÚôÀ¨¾Ôõ, À¢È Áì¸¨Ç þÆ¢× ÀÎòÐŨ¾Ôõ ¾Á¢Æ¢ý ¯Â÷Å¢üÌ ¾¡ÃÁ¡ìÌõ §À¡Ð, À¡Ã¾¢¾¡ºÉÐ ±ØòÐì¸û ¾Á¢ú ¦ÅȢ¡¸ò ¾¡úóРŢθ¢ýÈÉ. Àì-58
¾Á¢ú ¯½÷×, ¾Á¢ú ÀñÀ¡ðÎ ÷Åõ ¾Á¢ú¿¡ðÎô ôüÚ þ¨Å §¾º¢Â ¯½÷Å¢üÌ ÓÃñÀð¼É «øÄ. É¡ø ¾Á¢ú ¦ÅÈ¢ ¾Á¢Æ÷ ÁüÈ þÉò¾¡Ã¢Ûõ ±øġŨ¸Â¢Öõ º¢Èó¾Å÷ (Regional Chavunism) ±ýÈ ¸ÕòÐ, §¾º¢Â ´üÚ¨ÁìÌõ ¾Á¢Æ÷ ÀñÀ¡ðÊüÌõ §¿÷Óý¡ÉÐ. Àì-60
Actually this article is written by Prof.Vaanamamalai, in response to an article by Mr.Thaninayagam Adigal in Tamil Culture Article.
“¿£Ã¡Úõ “ «Ð ÀüÈ¢- I Quote- “ ¾Á¢ú À¢È¦Á¡Æ¢¸Ç¢Öõ º¢Èó¾Ð. À¢È ¦Á¡Æ¢¸¨Ç þ¸úóÐ ¿ÁÐ ¦Á¡Æ¢¨Âô §À¡üڧšõ ±ýÈ ¾É¢¨Á ¯½÷¨ÅÔõ, À¢Ã¢Å¢¨É ¯½÷§Å ¾Á¢Ø½÷ìÌõ ¿¡ðÎô ÀüÚìÌõ «Åº¢Âõ ±ýÀÐ ±ýÀÐ Íó¾ÃõÀ¢û¨Ç¢ý ¸ÕòÐ, §ÁÖõ ±øÄ¡ô À̾¢ Áì¸Ùõ ´ýÚÀÎõ ÓÂüº¢ ÐÅí¸¢Â ¸¡Äò¾¢ø þì¸ÕòÐ ¾Á¢Æ¨Ãò ¾É¢¨Áô ÀÎò¾ ¯¾×õ ¸ÕòÐ. Àì 56

¾¢Ã¡Å¢¼Š¾¡ý, ¾É¢¿¡Â¸ «Ê¸û ÜÚÅÐ §À¡Ä ´Õ ¸ÕòÐ ¾¡.(concept) «Ð ŠàÄÁ¡É ¯ÑmþÂøÄ. «¾ý «ÊôÀ¨¼ í¸¢Ä ðº¢Â¢ý ±¾¢÷ôÀøÄ, ¿¡ðÊý Ţξ¨Äô ÀüÚÁøÄ. ¾Á¢Ø½÷ «ì¸Õ¨¾ ÅÄ¢×ÀÎòÐù¾¡¸¡Ð. ²¦ÉÉ¢ø ¸üÀ¨Éò ¾¢Ã¡Å¢¼ò¾¢üÌ ±ó¾ ¦Á¡Æ¢Ôõ «ÊôÀ¨¼Â¡¸¡Ð. «Ð×õ ¾Á¢ú¦ÅÈ¢, ¦¾Öí¨¸Ôõ ¸ýɼò¨¾Ôõ Á¨Ä¡Çò¨¾Ôõ ±ùÅ¡Ú ¯ÈÅ¡ì¸ ¯¾×õ? þÐ
¾¡ý ¾£÷ì¸ ÓΡ¾ ÓÃñÀ¡Î. À¢Ã¢Å¢¨É þÂì¸ò¾¡Ã¢ý ¾Á¢Ø½÷× ¾Á¢ú ÁÃÀ¢ý ÅÆ¢ Åó¾¾øÄ.
²¦ÉÉ¢ø ¾Á¢úÉÐ ÀñÀ¡Î ±ø§Ä¡Õ¼Ûõ ¯È× ¦¸¡ñÎ ÅÇ÷ó¾Ð. Àì-59.

Another article, again the misinterpretation of History by Tamil Movement Scholars- Prof.Vaanamamalai- I Quote-“ ÅÃÄ¡üÚ ¿¢¸ú¸¨Ç ¾¢Ã¡Å¢¼ ¯Â÷× ±ýÈ ¸ñ§½¡ð¼ò¾¢ø þÅ÷¸û ¸ñ¼É÷... þáÁÂ½ì ¸¨¾¨Â â ¾¢Ã¡Å¢¼ô §À¡Ã¡¸î º¢ò¾Ã¢ò¾É÷. .. .. âÂ÷ ¾¢ì¸ò¨¾ ±¾¢÷ì¸ ¾¢Ã¡Å¢¼ ¿¡Î ±ýÚõ §À¡Ã¡ÊÔûÇÐ. þРŢξ¨Ä ¸¡ìÌõ ¯½÷× ±ýÚ, «ó¾ ãø ż¿¡ð¨¼ «¼ì¸¢Â¡ñ¼¡ý ¸Ã¢¸¡Äý ±ýÚõ, ¸É¸ Å¢ºÂ÷ ¾¨Ä¨Á¢ø ¸ø§ÄüÈ¢ì ¦¸¡½÷ó¾¡ý ¦ºíÌðÎÅý ±ýÈ ¾¢ì¸ô ¦ÀÕ¨Á §ÀÍÅ÷. âÂôÀ¨¼ ¸¼ó¾ ¦¿Î了ƢÂý ±ýÈ ¦À¨Ãì ¦¸¡ñÎ, ¦ÀÕõ §À¡÷ ´ýÚ ¿¼óò¾¡¸ ¾¡ÃÁ¢ýÈ¢§Â ¸Â¢Ú ¾¢Ã¢ôÀ÷. Àì 36, article- ¾Á¢Æ¸ ÅÃÄ¡üÚì ¸ñ§½¡ð¼í¸û.


On Maraimalai Adigal- þó¾¢Â Ţξ¨Ä §¾¨Å¢ø¨Ä. .. . ż¦Á¡Æ¢Â¢Ä¢ÕóÐ ¾Á¢¨Æô À¡Ð¸¡ôÀÐ , À¢Ã¡Á½Ã¢¼Á¢ÕóÐ ¾Á¢¨Æô À¡Ð¸¡ôÀÐ, í¸¢Ä ¦Á¡Æ¢ ¾¢ì¸ò¾¡ø ¾Á¢ú «Æ¢Å¨¾ì ¸¡½¡¾ ¸ñ¸û ż¦Á¡Æ¢ â¾ò¨¾ì ¸ñ¼É. ¾õ ±ýÀÐ ÁÉôÀ¢Ã¡ó¾¢ ¾¡§É? þøÄ¡¾ â¾ò¨¾ì ¦¸¡øÄ «Å÷ Å¡¨Çî ÍÆüȢɡ÷. þÐ ¾¡ý Á¨ÈÁ¨Ä «Ê¸ÇÐ ¾Á¢Ø½÷×, þó¾¢Â Ţξ¨Ä §¾¨Å¢ø¨Ä ±ýÚ ±ñ½¢ÂÅ÷¸û þó¾¢Â ´Õ¨Á¨Âô ÀüÈ¢ ±ýÉ ¸Å¨Ä þÕì¸ ÓÊÔõ? ¾Á¢ú ¦ÅÈ¢ìÌõ, þó¾¢Â Ţξ¨Ä ÷Åò¾¢÷Ìõ ´ðÎõ ¯È×õ ²Ð? ±É§Å ÓÃñÀ¡ÊøÄ¡¾ ¾Á¢Ø½÷× ±ýÚ ¾É¢¿¡Â¸ «Ê¸û «¨ÆôÀÐ À¢È ¦Á¡Æ¢¸¨Çô ÀÆ¢ôÀÐ. À¢È¦Á¡Æ¢ §Àͧš¨Ãô ÀÆ¢òÐ, ¾Á¢Æ¢ý ¯Â÷¨Å ¿¢¨Ä¿¡ðÎÅÐ ¾¡ý ±ýÚ §¾¡ýÚ¸¢ÈÐ.. Àì 56,57.

“¿¡ø§Å¾õ «øÄÐ ¿¡ýÁ¨È, Èí¸õ, ¸Áõ ±ýÀÉ Ã¢Â áø¸§Ç ±ýÀÐõ, ¾¢ÕìÌÈû ¾Å¢Ã þô§À¡ÐûÇ ÁüÈ Àñ¨¼Â áø¸û ±øÄ¡õ «ó¾½÷ ±ýÀÐ À¢Ã¡Á½¨Ã§Â ÌÈ¢ìÌõ ±ýÀÐõ ºÃ¢§Â”.. Àì101, ¾Á¢Æ÷ Á¾õ. §¾Å§¿ÂôÀ¡Å½÷.

“¾Á¢Æ¢ý ¦¾¡ýÓÐô ÀƨÁÔõ «¾üÌ þ¨¼Â¢¨¼ §¿÷ó¾ ÀÄ ¦ÀÕó¾£í̸¨ÇÔõ §¿¡ìÌõ þ¼òÐ, «¸ò¾¢Â÷, ¦¾¡ø¸¡ôÀ¢Â÷, ¿ì¸£Ã÷, ¿îº¢É¡÷츢ɢÂ÷- Àâ¾¢Á¡ü¸¨Ä»÷ §À¡ýÈ Ã¢Âô À¡÷ôÀÉ÷ þøÄ¡Ð þÕôÀ¢ý, ¾Á¢ú Á¢¸ì ¦¸ðÎô §À¡Â¢ÕìÌõ.” ´ôÀ¢Âý ¦Á¡Æ¢ áø Àì 67. À¡Å¡½÷.

See the Fraud that PAvanar does here-Leaving Kural for hisinterpretation, and I quote from Pavanar's Tirukural Urai, where he confirms Thiruvalluvar refers Vedas.

ÁÈôÀ¢Ûõ µòàì ¦¸¡Çø Ìõ À¡÷ôÀ¡ý
À¢ÈôÒ ´Øì¸õ ÌýÈì ¦¸Îõ.
þì ÌÈÇ¢üÌ À¡Å½÷- À¡Å¡½÷ µòÐ ÁÈôÀ¢Ûõ ¦¸¡Çø Ìõ. âÂô À¡÷ôÀ¡É¡É À¢Ã¡Á½ý ¾¡ý ¸üÈ §Å¾ò¨¾ ÁÈó¾¡ý ¢Ûõ «¨¾ ¾¢ÕõÀ µ¾¢ì ¦¸¡ûÇ ÓÊÔõ. À¢ÈôÒ ´Øì¸õ ÌýÈì ¦¸Îõ. .. ..

Now Pavanar is absolutely clear that VALLUVAR Referred to Brahmins and Vedas and as per Sangam Lit. iself what is PiRappu ozukkam for Brahmins:
µ¾ø §Åð¼ø «¨ÅÀ¢È÷î ¦ºö¾ø
®¾ø ²üÈø±ý(Ú) ÚÒ¡¢ó(Ð) ´ØÌõ
«ÈõÒ¡¢ «ó¾½÷ ÅÆ¢¦Á¡Æ¢ó(Ð) ´Ø¸¢
»¡Äõ ¿¢ýÅÆ¢ ´Ø¸ô À¡¼øº¡Ýú PathiRRupattu-24
IF a Brahmins continues to Read and Teach Vedas back; then VEDAS can be recollected. So Valluvar is absolutely clear. If for Paavanr aruthozilaar in every other works refers to Brahmins why fradulant translation here? Divakara Nikandu is of much Later period, and to quote it purposely wrongly proves his false attitude.
Whether MAXMULLER or Caldwell to Pavanar- all their Linguistic work were done to undermine Indian Unity and its Greatness.
PAULThomas boasting about Deivanayagam- saying VALLUVAR AS Christian- needs separate Thread, but it would be too much about History of Christianity, and may not be that easy, to put it fully secular without going into the Church play with Tamil etc., and Paavanar’s Tamil Books are One such- fully loaded against Truths. All this are possible 50 years back, fsg, bismala please stop this fradulant offending opinions. Deivanayagam’s book along with PAAVANAR looks completely show both had a common editing help, and DEIVANAYAGAM’S first work was published in 1969, and Paavanaar till his death 1981, has he commented a bit- any friends can tell me. Pavanr work perfectly goes with what Bharathiyar wrote:
and MahaKavi Bharati condemens it in his Short ARTICLE called Á¾¢ôÒ
þó¾¢Â¡¨Å ¦ÅÇ¢Ôĸò¾¡÷ À¡Á羺õ ±ýÚ ¿¢¨ÉìÌõÀÊ ¦ºö¾ Ó¾ü ÌüÈõ ¿õÓ¨¼ÂÐ. ÒÈì¸ÕÅ¢¸ û ÀÄ.
ӾġÅÐ, ¸¢È¢ŠÐÅô À¡¾¢Ã¢. «¦Áâ측ŢÖõ ³§Ã¡ôÀ¡Å¢Öõ º¢Ä
¸¢È¢ŠÐÅô À¡¾¢Ã¢¸ û, ¾í¸û Á¾ Å¢„ÂÁ¡É À¢Ãº¡Ãò¨¾ ¯ò§¾º¢òÐ ¿õ¨Áì ÌÈ¢òÐô ¦Àâ ¦Àâ ¦À¡ö¸û ¦º¡øÄ¢, þôÀÊ𠾡úóÐ §À¡ö Á¸ð¾¡É «¿¡¸Ã¢¸ ¿¢¨Ä¢ø þÕìÌõ ƒÉí¸¨Çì ¸¢È¢ŠÐ Á¼ò¾¢§Ä §º÷òÐ §Áý¨ÁôÀÎòÐõ Òñ½¢Âò¨¼î ¦ºöž¡¸î ¦º¡øÖ¸¢È¸û. ¢
þóÐì¸û ÌÆ󨾸¨Ç ¿¾¢Â¢§Ä §À¡Î¸¢È¡÷¸û ±ýÚõ, Šòâ¸¨Ç (Ó츢ÂÁ¡¸, «¿¡¨¾¸Ç¡öô ÒÕ„÷¸¨Ç þÆóÐ ¸¾¢Â¢øÄ¡Áø þÕìÌõ ¨¸õ¦Àñ¸¨Ç) ¿¡ö¸¨Çô §À¡Ä ¿¼òи¢È÷¸û ±ýÚõ ÀÄÅ¢¾Á¡É «ÀÅ¡¾í¸û ¦º¡øÖ¸¢È¡÷¸û. ¿õÓ¨¼Â ƒ¡¾¢ô À¢Ã¢×¸Ç¢¦Ä þÕìÌõ ÌüÈí¸¨Ç¦ÂøÄ¡õ â¾ì¸ñ½¡Ê ¨ÅòÐì ¸¡ðθ¢È¡÷¸û. þó¾ì ¸¢È¢ŠÐÅô À¡¾¢Ã¢¸Ç¡§Ä ¿ÁìÌ §¿÷ó¾ «ÅÁ¡Éõ «ÇÅ¢ø¨Ä. Barathiyar, ¸ðΨÃ- Á¾¢ôÒ


Paavanaar wrote so much against Hinduism- absolutely UNHISTORICAL and Unethical without any basis, has he commented about Bible or Historical Jesus, against which tons of Proofs are mounting, all proving his highly biased attitude.
Tiruvalluvar wrote Kural to highlight Dharma- or Aram, avoiding God names in Kadavul Vazthu, but has used Hindu God references in morethan 25 odd Kurals and I shall give them now on.
Please Read Kural to know what Valluar said.
[/tscii:1af2b04aa3]

[bis_mala]

[tscii:87220ef298]
Tholkaapiyar has given very clear classification of Four Varna Classification of Indian Society and gives detail of each Branch its duties and denies most rights to the Fourth Varna. First Varna is named in Tholkaapiyam as Anthanar- Brahmins or AruThozilaar, the last meaning Shadakarma Nishadar.
He has of course given very clear classification but you are muddled up and even his clarity did not help you at all. The four varnas were implemented in North India. The last varna in North India comprise Sudras. Whereas the four divisions that naturally occurred in Tamil Nadu substantially differed from those in North India. There were no Sudras. The Velalars mentioned in Tolkaappiyam were not Sudras. The four divisions in Tamil Nadu were based on economic activity but they were not hierarchical. Most of the Tamil kings married brides from the veLLala economic division. Of the last 7 philanthropist rulers (vaLLalas) in the Tamil country, all were veLLaLas. In times of war, they supplied the armies that food by which they marched to their battlegrounds. They also fed the people. Therefore they were exempted from all forms of other services including military service or enlistment. The similarity between the first three occupational divisions in Tamil country then and that which existed in North India was a mere coincidence. Even in Japan there existed occupational divisions, for example the samurai. Even in England, there was this division between Lords and Commons. But these are not varnas. Many civil services of the world even today have four divisions of officers, These are not casteist divisions. There are gazetted and non-gazetted ranks. The civil service ranks of today are hierarchical but not the Tamil divisions of olden days. The Kings were protectors and therefore had authority to rule and administer.

AnthaNar was not Brahmin. The Brahmins of later ages took over the Tamil title.causing confusion.
I have explained the other terms.before.

Much of what you have written is not relevant to this thread. As they have been covered elsewhere in my as well as fsg’s replies, I shall not repeat.

We are not interested in Vanamaamalai’s attack of Bharathithaasan. Irrelevant to us. [/tscii:87220ef298]

[bis_mala]

[tscii:d89669c0f2]//¿õÓ¨¼Â º¡¾¢ô À¢Ã¢×¸Ç¢¦Ä þÕìÌõ ÌüÈí¸¨Ç¦ÂøÄ¡õ â¾ì¸ñ½¡Ê ¨ÅòÐì ¸¡ðθ¢È¡÷¸û.//
§¾ÅôÀ¢Ã¢Â¡ ¦¾Ã¢óЦ¸¡ûǧÅñÊÂÐ. ¿£Å¢÷ ±ÎòÐ측ðÎõ ÌüÈò¨¾ò¾¡ý þíÌ þ¨¼ÂÈ¡Ð þýÚõ ¿££Å¢§Ã ¦ºöЦ¸¡ñÊÕ츢ȣ÷. ¦¾¡ø¸¡ôÀ¢Âõ, ¾¢ÕìÌÈû ±øÄ¡ÅüÈ¢Öõ º¡¾¢ ¯ñ¦¼ýÚ Å¡¾¢ì¸¢ýÈ£÷!! â¾ì¸ñ½¡Ê ¨ÅòÐ즸¡ñÎ þøÄ¡¾ À¢Ã¢Å¢¨É¸ûܼ þÕôÀÉÅ¡¸ì ÜȢ즸¡ñÊÕôÀÐ Á¢¸ô¦Àâ ÌüȧÁ!! -- À¡Ã¾¢Â¡÷ ÜÈ¢ÂÀÊ.[/tscii:d89669c0f2]

[stranger]

Devapriya:

I believe we can discuss thirukuRaL without your vedic bs or casteist remarks.

If you cant just LEAVE from here! :twisted:

[bis_mala]

[tscii:443f7ae599]Devapriya wrote:

//¦ºÚÅ¢ü âò¾ §ºÂ¢¾úò ¾¡Á¨Ã,
«Ú¦¾¡Æ¢ø «ó¾½÷ «ÈõÒâóÐ ±Îò¾
¾£¦Â¡Î Å¢ÇíÌõ ¿¡¼ý, Å¡ puram397

“§ÅÚ§ÅÚ º¢ÈôÀ¢ý §ÅÚ§ÅÚ ¦ºöÅ¢¨É
Ú «È¢ ÁÃÀ¢ý «È¢ó§¾¡÷ ¦ºöÔÁ¢ý “ Manimekhalai 1:55//

I have not checked the book Manimekhalai now, but it is clear to me you have left out the letter "¬" in this quotation. "¬ÈÈ¢ ÁÃÀ¢ý" does not refer to any Brahmin caste. The lines mean "those who know the 6 activities could perform them." §ÅÚ§ÅÚ º¢ÈôÀ¢ý means each of those six activities has its own significance. There is no caste reference here.

//“¡ôÒ ¯¨¼ ¯ûÇòÐ ±õ «¨É þÆ󧾡ý
À¡÷ôÀÉ ÓÐÁ¸ý ÀÊÁ ¯ñÊÂý ..//

"À¡÷ôÀÉ" refers to those who were looking after places of worship, these in olden days could be under the banyan trees. ¬ÄÁÃò¾Ê, from which the word ¬ÄÂõ is derived. ¬ÄÁ÷ ¸¼×û means ¬ÄÁÃò¾Êì ¸¼×û. þó¾ þ¼ò¨¾ò àö¨ÁôÀÎò¾¢ ÅÕ¸¢ÈÅ÷¸ÙìÌî §º¨Å ¦ºöÐ À¢¨ÆìÌõ ±Ç¢ÂÅý "À¡÷ôÀ¡ý" ±ÉôÀð¼¡ý. This job was not performed by any rigidly closed, then not-existent, category marrying among themselves and claiming to be higher than others. The vadama brahmins came to Tamilnadu one thousand or more years later. Do not confuse. Óú¨ÈÔõ§À¡Ð «Åý Óú¨È§Å¡ý ( «¾üÌâ ¦À¨à þô§À¡Ð ¦º¡øÄ Å¢ÕõÀÅ¢ø¨Ä ), §¸¡Â¢¨Äô À¡÷ìÌõ§À¡Ð «Åý À¡÷ôÀÅý. ÀÊÁ «øÄÐ ÀÊÅ ¯ñʦÂýÀРŢþ¡Ú. Ţþõ ±Îò¾Å¦ÉøÄ¡õ þ측Äô À¢Ã¡Á½É¢ý Óý§É¡ý «øÄý. ÅûÙÅì ÌÎõÀò¾¢É÷ «øÄÐ §ÅÚ¡Õõ À¡÷ôÀ¡É¡¸ ¦¾¡Æ¢ø §Áü¦¸¡ûÇÄ¡õ, ºí¸ ¸¡Äò¾¢ø.

Every nation had its own clergy, please note that having a clergy or references to such clergy would not by itself mean that a caste system was in place.

The Brahman or Brahmin of the north acknowledged Brahma as his god and that was why he was called a Brahmin in those days. Just like Christ > Christian, Mohammad > Mohammedan (now not used). In later days, all clergymen were absorbed into this category, causing the confusion in which you are now trapped and unable to extricate yourself.

As to AnthaNar and its meaning, please see my previous posts.


//Paavanaar wrote so much against Hinduism- absolutely UNHISTORICAL and Unethical without any basis, has he commented about Bible or Historical Jesus, against which tons of Proofs are mounting, all proving his highly biased attitude.//

PavaaNar had not written against Hinduism except to expound historical truths. Much of what he wrote was on etymology and philology. Hinduism is not synonymous with Brahminism. Hinduism is not synonymous with Vedic. You seem to be attacking all those who do not subscribe to your line of thinking. PavaaNar proved that Sanskrit is a hybrid language which you hate to hear. So do not try to turn all Hindus against PavaaNar.

PavaaNar said Kumari Kandam was the birthplace of humanity, which goes against biblical teachings. He did not care whether it conflicted with those teachings or not.

PLEASE STOP WRITING ABOUT BRAHMINS. You are instroducing what the hub administration has prohibited.


[/tscii:443f7ae599]

[stranger]

[tscii:92667f5c27]̽õ ¿¡Ê ÌüÈÓõ ¿¡Ê «ÅüÈ¢ø
Á¢¨¸¿¡Ê Á¢ì¸ ¦¸¡Çø
[/tscii:92667f5c27]

Could you guys read this :?:

But I could not! :(

[kannannn]

Stranger, visit the 'testing' page in the forum. It explains clearly how to view tamil fonts. I too learned it just today and successfully posted a tamil sentence. Install 'Murasu Anjal' from http://www.murasu.com/.

[stranger]

[tscii:ea48e68707]̽õ ¿¡Ê ÌüÈÓõ ¿¡Ê «ÅüÈ¢ø
Á¢¨¸¿¡Ê Á¢ì¸ ¦¸¡Çø
[/tscii:ea48e68707]

Could you guys read this :?:

But I could not! :(

Finally I could "read and write" thamizh now! :D

நன்றி மாலா, கண்ணன் ! :)

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Prof. Vanamamalai is a Brahmin. His Vedhic pratogonist thinking shall not be worthwhile.

I have already revealed the cutting and jointing of 'Pathitrupatthu'verses done by Solomon in previous pages of this thread.

Silapathikaaram & Manimekalai are Jains & Buddha oriented works respectively. How do Vedhic traditions come there?

Whenever 'Anthanar' found automatically why his thinking do go wrong?

I would give the exact meaning in relevant thread since I want to write it separately. Moderators should allow me to do this.

f.s.gandhi

[stranger]

[tscii:0ed1220874] Uppuma = Devapriya = Pavitra = Solomon = Ancheneya = PaulThomas.

þÅ÷¸û ±ø§Ä¡Õ§Á ´ÕÅ÷¾¡É¡!!!! :shock:

þÅ÷ ±ýÉ ÁÉ¿¢¨Ä ºÃ¢Â¢øÄ¡¾Åá :?:

I am familier with people taking another avatar when they had been banned. But these characters are alive at the same time! :lol:[/tscii:0ed1220874]

Is that too hard to discuss thirukkuRaL without bringing up any Castes here? :roll:

[bis_mala]

[tscii:0248673d25]ºÐ÷§Å¾õ ¬ÚŨ¸î º¡ò¾¢ ÃõÀÄ
¾ó¾¢Ãõ Òá½ì¸¨Ä º¡üÚõ ¬¸Áõ
Å¢¾Å¢¾õ ¬ÉÅ¡É §ÅÚ áø¸Ùõ
Å£½¡É áø¸§Ç±ý È¡Î À¡õ§À

---- À¡õÀ¡ðÊî º¢ò¾÷,

¾òÐÅì Ìô¨À¨Âò ¾ûÙí¸Ê - §Å¾
º¡ò¾¢Ãô ¦À¡ò¾¨Ä ãÎí¸Ê!
------ Å¡¨ÄÁ¢î º¢ò¾÷, "»¡ÉìÌõÁ¢"

Ýò¾¢Ã Û즸¡Õ ¿£¾¢ -- ¾ñ¼î
§º¡ÚñÏõ À¡÷ôÒìÌ §Å¦È¡Õ ¿£¾¢,
º¡ò¾¢Ãõ ¦º¡øĢΠÁ¡Â¢ý -- «Ð
º¡ò¾¢Ãõ «ýÚ, º¾¢¦ÂýÚ ¸ñ§¼¡õ.


ÅûÙÅý ¾ý¨É ¯Ä¸¢Û째 - ¾óÐ
Å¡ýÒ¸ú ¦¸¡ñ¼ ¾Á¢ú¿¡Î

---- Á¸¡¸Å¢ À¡Ã¾¢Â¡÷.


"À¢Èô¦À¡ìÌõ ±øÄ¡ ¯Â¢÷ìÌõ"

-----ÅûÙÅý


[/tscii:0248673d25]

[stranger]

[tscii:cb5bb5602e]à «ó¾½ÕìÌ À¡Ã¾¢ ´Õ «Æ¸¡É ±ÎòÐ측ðÎ.

ƒ¡¾¢ Á¾ §ÅÚÀ¡ð¨¼ ÐÉ¢óÐ ±¾¢÷ò¾Åý. ƒ¡¾¢ Á¾ §ÅÚÀ¡ð¨¼ ±¾¢÷ò¾ ÁȾÁ¢Æý À¡Ã¾¢.

Uppumaa and rava and devapriya are certainly belong to the "Godse category" here.

Dont you even dream that you will ever fall in the category of "«ó¾½ý" mentioned by thiruvaLLuvar ever![/tscii:cb5bb5602e]

[bis_mala]

[tscii:aa65fb4f47]ÁÄ÷Å¡öô À¢Èó¾ Å¡º¸ò §¾§É¡
¡§¾¡ º¢Èó¾Ð ±ýÌÅ¢÷ ¬Â¢ý
§Å¾õ µ¾¢ý ŢƢ¿£÷ ¦ÀÕ츢
¦¿ïÍ ¦¿ìÌÕ¸¢ ¿¢üÀÅ÷ ¸¡ñ¸¢§Äõ!
¾¢ÕÅ¡ º¸Á¢í ¦¸¡Õ¸¡ø µ¾¢ý
ÍÕí¸ø ÁÉÓõ ¸¨ÃóÐÌõ ¸ñ¸û!

----- ¸À¢Ä÷ «¸Åø.

¬Ã¢Â §Å¾í¸û ÀÂÉüȨŠ±ýÀÐ ¾Á¢ú «È¢»÷, ¦ÀÕõÒÄÅ÷, þ¨ÈÔ½÷× ¦¸¡ñ§¼¡÷, º¢ò¾÷¸û ÓÊ×.[/tscii:aa65fb4f47]

[kannannn]

[tscii:bb856c4a2a]ÀÄ §¿Ãí¸Ç¢ø ¾¢ÕÅûÙÅâý Á¾ º¡÷¨Àô ÀüÈ¢ ¿¡ý §Â¡º¢ò¾ÐñÎ. ÌÈ¢ôÀ¡¸ þìÌÈû:
ÁÄ÷Á¢¨º ²¸¢É¡ý Á¡½Ê §º÷ó¾¡÷
¿¢ÄÁ¢¨º ¿£ÎÅ¡ú Å¡÷

þ¾¢ø ÁÄâø Å£üÈ¢ÕôÀÅÉ¢ý ¾¢ÕÅʸû ±¨¾ì ÌÈ¢ìÌõ? «øÄР¡¨Ãì ÌÈ¢ìÌõ?

Áü¦È¡Õ ÌÈû:
ÁÈôÀ¢Ûõ ´òÐì ¦¸¡ÇÄ¡Ìõ À¡÷ôÀ¡ý
À¢Èô¦À¡Øì¸í ÌýÈ즸Îõ
þ¾¢ø Á¨Èô¦À¡Õû ±¨¾ì ÌÈ¢ìÌõ?

¾¢ÕÅûÙÅ÷ ¨ºÉ Á¾ò¨¾ ¦º÷ó¾Å÷ ±Éì ÜÈ §¸ðÊÕ츢§Èý. Á¡Ä¡ þ¾üÌ Å¢Çì¸õ ¾Ã ÓÊÔÁ¡?[/tscii:bb856c4a2a]

[bis_mala]

[tscii:1dccf0dd45]ÁÄ÷Á¢¨º ²¸¢É¡ý -- ÁÄâý ¸ñ§½ ¦ºýÈÅÉÐ, Á¡½Ê§º÷ó¾¡÷ -- Á¡ðº¢¨ÁôÀð¼ "«Ê¸¨Çî §º÷ó¾¡÷, ¿¢ÄÁ¢¨º ¿£ÎÅ¡úÅ¡÷ -- ±øÄ¡ ¯Ä¸¢üÌõ§Áġ ţðÎ ¯Ä¸ò¾¢ý¸ñ «Æ¢Å¢ýÈ¢ Å¡úÅ¡÷.

-- Àâ§ÁÄƸ÷ ¯¨Ã.

In this commentary, malar has been taken as equal to :"manam" or the (devotee's) heart. ParimElazakar rejected the suggestion that it referred to any Jain entity by saying: "þ¾¨Éô â§Áø ¿¼ó¾¡ý ±ýÀ§¾¡÷ ¦ÀÂ÷ÀüÈ¢ À¢È¢§¾¡÷ ¸¼×ðÌ ²üÚÅ¡Õõ ¯Ç÷".
The difficulty with the interpretation of this kuRaL arises because VaLLuvar used the past tense finite verb: ²¸¢É¡ý. "one who ascended the flower" in the past tense. However ParimElazakar said that the past tense came in there to denote the quickness or speed with which God would come to his devotee if the devotee would reach out for His Feet of glory. ParimElazakar pointed to Tolkaappiyam (¦º¡øľ¢¸¡Ãõ, Å¢¨É. 44): "þÈó¾ ¸¡ÄòÐì ÌÈ¢ô¦À¡Î ¸¢Çò¾ø, Å¢¨Ãó¾ ¦À¡ÕÇ ±ýÁÉ¡÷ ÒÄÅ÷."

Reading VaLLuvar with Tolkaapiyam grammar rule on the interpretation of tense, the kuRaL should be explained as: "ÁÄ÷Á¢¨º ²ÌÅ¡ý" in future tense or in the present tense as "ÁÄ÷Á¢¨º ²Ì¸¢ýÈÅý".

Then the meaning would be: "¯Õ¸¢ò ¦¾¡Ø¾ÅÉ¢ý ÁÉÁ¡¸¢Â ÁÄâý§Áø ¦ºý§ÈÚ¸¢ýÈÅÛ¨¼Â Á¡ðº¢Á¢ì¸ «Ê¸¨Çî §º÷ó¾Å÷..." Thus the controversy can be resolved.

It appears that this controversy has lasted nearly a thousand years. The latest to join the controversial interpreters was Prof. S. Vaiyapurip Pillai ( student of MaRaimalai AdigaL ) of Madras University who said he could be a Jain. He also pushed ThiruvaLLuvar's era to to a later date by which time Jainism/ Bhuddism was followed in the Tamil country. SVP's students are carrying on with the controversy. Now the Jains have happily joined in to make a claim!!

The truth is that vaLLuvar lived around 33 BCE or before and did not adhere to any religion as he did not recommend any religion to his readers in his book. He believed in a god or God just like many poets of Sangam Age and that was about all. At the time there was no social pressure or requirement that one should belong to some religion as it is today.

(will continue).
[/tscii:1dccf0dd45]

[bis_mala]

[tscii:eb4382c2ed]"ÁÄ÷Á¢¨º ²¸¢É¡ý " ±Û󦾡¼ì¸òÐì ÌÈÙìÌ Dr. ¿Åሠ¦ºø¨Ä¡ «ÅÃÐ ÒÐ ¯¨Ã¢ø ±ýÉ ¦º¡ø¸¢È¡÷ ±ýÚ ¸¡ñ§À¡õ:

ÁÄ÷ = ÁÄ÷, «¾¡ÅÐ ±Ø, ¸Ç¢ôÒ.
ÁÄ÷ Á¢¨º: ÁÄ÷ Á¢Ì ¯½÷×¼ý.
²¸¢É¡ý - Å¡úóÐ ÅÕ¸¢È(Åý).

þ¾¢ø ÍðÊ측ð¼ Å¢ÕõÒÅР¡¦¾ýÈ¡ø, þÈó¾ ¸¡Ä Å¢¨ÉÓüÚ ( þíÌ "²¸¢É¡ý Á¡½Ê" = ²¸¢ÉÅÉ¢ý Á¡½Ê ±ýÀ¾¡ø, Å¢¨É¡Ĩ½Ôõ ¦ÀÂ÷ ) ¿¢¸ú¸¡ÄÁ¡¸ ±ÎòШÃì¸ôÀθ¢ÈÐ. ¬¸§Å þùŨ¸Â¢ø (insofar as the treatment of this word is concerned), þùרẢâÂ÷ Àâ§ÁÄƸ÷ §À¡Ä§Å ¦ºøÖ¸¢ýÈ¡÷ ±ýÀÐ.

þÅ÷¾õ ¯¨Ã¢ýÀÊÔõ þÐ ºÁ½Á¾ò ¦¾¡¼÷Ò¸¡ð¼Å¢ø¨Ä ±ýÀÐ ¦¾Ç¢×.
ÓØ ¯¨Ã¨ÂÔõ «óáÄ¢ø ¸ñÎ ¦¾Ã¢óЦ¸¡ûÙí¸û.
[/tscii:eb4382c2ed]

[kannannn]

[tscii:5cede1775d]Á¡Ä¡, Á¢ì¸ ¿ýÈ¢. ±ýÉ¢¼õ ¯ûÇ ¯¨Ã¢ø ÀÄ Ì¨È¸û ¯ûÇɧÀ¡ø ¯½÷¸¢§Èý. ¬¸, ¾¢ÕÅûÙŨÃÔõ Å¢¼Å¢ø¨Ä. «Å¨ÃÔõ º÷ìÌûǡ츢Ţð¼É÷.[/tscii:5cede1775d]

[bis_mala]

[tscii:1938ffcaf7]þìÌÈÇ¢ø º¢ó¾¨É¨Â ¦ºÖòÐÁ¡Ú ¯óоø ¾óÐ §¸ð¼¾üÌ ¿¡ý ±ÉÐ «ýÀ¡É ¿ýÈ¢¨Âò ¦¾Ã¢Å¢òÐ즸¡û¸¢§Èý.

Ó¨ÉÅ÷ Ó. ÅþáºÉ¡Ã¢ý ¦¾Ç¢×¨Ã¢ø: ÁÄ÷Á¢¨º ²¸¢É¡ý ±ýÛõ ¦¾¡¼ÕìÌ, "«ýÀâý «¸Á¡¸¢Â ÁÄâø Å£üÈ¢ÕìÌõ ¸¼×Ç¢ý," Á¡½Ê = "º¢Èó¾ ¾¢ÕÅʸ¨Ç" ±ýÚ ±Ø¾¢ÔûÇ¡÷. þýÛõ º¢Ä ¯¨Ã¸Ùõ ¯ûÇÉ. «ÅüÈ¢ø ±¾¢§ÄÛõ ºÁ½, Òò¾ Á¾í¸Ç¢ý ¦¾¼÷À¢Ä¡É ¦À¡Õû ÜÈôÀðÊÄÐ ±ýÀÐ ÌÈ¢ôÀ¢¼ò ¾ì¸Ð. ¾Õ½õ Å¡öìÌõ§À¡Ð «ÅüÈ¢ø º¢ÄÅü¨Èì ¸¡½Ä¡õ.

Àâ§ÁÄƸ÷ ¸¡Äò¾¢ø º¢Ä÷ ºÁ½ Á¾ò¨¾ò ¦¾¡¼÷ÒÀÎòÐõ ÅƢ¢ø ¯¨Ã¦º¡øÄ¢ì ¦¸¡ñÊÕ󾨾 «Å÷ ÌÈ¢òÐ, "«í¹Éõ ÜÚÅ¡ÚÓÇ÷" ±ýÚ ¦º¡øÄ¢ò ¾¡õ «¾¨Éô À¢ýÀüÈÅ¢ø¨Ä ±ýÚ Å¢ð¼¨¾, Á£ñÎõ ¨¸Â¢¦ÄÎòÐô ÒòТåðÊ, º¢Ä÷ ´ÕôÀÎÁ¡Úõ ÀÄ÷ ÁÚôÒ¨ÃìÌÁ¡Úõ ¬É§¾¡÷ ¿¢¨Ä¨Â ¯Õš츢ÂÅ÷ S.¨Å¡Òâ¡÷!![/tscii:1938ffcaf7]

[stranger]

I am sorry to bring this up, but

How would we know thirukuRaL (1330) were written by one person?

whom we named as thiruvaLLuvar? :)

[bis_mala]

[tscii:cf1d11f9a7]1. ¾¢ÕÅûÙÅ÷ þÂüȢɡ÷ ±ýÚ ÀÄ ºí¸ô ÒÄÅ÷¸û ÜÈ¢ÔûÇÉ÷. «Å¨Ãô Ò¸úóÐ À¡ÊÔûÇÉ÷.
2. "¦À¡öþø ÒÄÅý" ±ýÚ º£ò¾¨Äî º¡ò¾É¡÷ Á½¢§Á¸¨Ä¢ø «Å¨Ãô §À¡üÈ¢ì ÜÈ¢ÔûÇ¡÷.
3 «Å÷¾õ ¦ºöÔû/¸Å¢¨¾ ¿¨¼. ÁüÈ Â¡ÕìÌõ Åá¾ ¾É¢î ¦º¡øÄÎìÌ Ó¨È. ¸Î¨¸ò ШÇòÐ ²Ø ¸¼¨Äô Ò¸ðÊ, ²ý, «Ï¨Åò ШÇòÐ ²ú¸¼¨Äô Ò¸ðÊì ÌÚ¸ò ¾Ã¢ìÌõ ¾¢Èý.
4´ý¨Èî ¦º¡øÄ¢ «¾¢Ä¢ÕóÐ ÀÄ÷ ÀÄÅü¨È ¯½÷óЦ¸¡ûÙÁ¡Ú ¦ºöÔû Ò¨ÉÔõ ¾¢Èý. ±íÌ ±¨¾î ¦º¡ýÉ¡ø, «¨¾ ±ôÀʦÂøÄ¡õ «È¢ó§¾¡÷ ŢâòÐ즸¡ûÅ÷ ±ýÚ ¦¾Ã¢óÐ À¡Îõ ¦¾öÅôÒĨÁ.
5 º¢Ä§Å¨Ç¸Ç¢ø Ţθ¨¾§À¡ø À¡Êì §¸ð§À¡÷ þÐ ¦º¡ýÉ¡§Ã¡, «Ð ¦º¡ýÉ¡§Ã¡ ±ýÚ ¾¢ñ¼¡¼¨ÅìÌõ ÒĨÁ. (¸Ä¢í¸òÐôÀý¢Â¢ø ܼ ¦ºÂí¦¸¡ñ¼¡÷ þôÀÊ ¦º¡øÄ¢ø Å¢¨Ç¡ÊÔûÇ¡÷.). ¯¾¡Ã½õ: "ÁÄ÷Á¢¨º ²¸¢É¡ý" ±ýÈÀ¡ðÎ.
6 Ò¾¢Â ÀÄ ¸¨Ä¦º¡ü¸¨Ç ¯ÕÅ¡ì¸¢ì ¦¸¡ñ¼¨Á. ±íÌõ ¸¡½ô¦ÀÈ¡¾ ¦º¡øĨÁôÒ¸û. ¦º¡ü¦È¡¼÷¸û. Ò¾¢Â «øÄÐ ºÃ¢Â¡É ŨèÈ׸û. (definitions).
7 So far no civil claims against him alleging co-authorship or contribution.
8 Tamil lit. sources have always been honest about authorship. When it is an anthology, they have said so.
þýÛõ ÀÄ.

À¡¦ÄøÄ¡õ ¿øÄ¡Å¢ý À¡Ä¡§Á¡?
á¦ÄøÄ¡õ ÅûÙÅý¦ºö áÄ¡§Á¡?


[/tscii:cf1d11f9a7]

[stranger]

[tscii:686f134855]¿ýÈ¢, Á¡Ä¡! [/tscii:686f134855] :D

[Sanjeevi]

I heard Thirukkural is the second literature translated into many no. of languages. (First one is Bible).

The true strength of Thriukkural is that it is not a religious based :thumbsup:

[kannannn]

[tscii:c140a0a344]
3 «Å÷¾õ ¦ºöÔû/¸Å¢¨¾ ¿¨¼. ÁüÈ Â¡ÕìÌõ Åá¾ ¾É¢î ¦º¡øÄÎìÌ Ó¨È. ¸Î¨¸ò ШÇòÐ ²Ø ¸¼¨Äô Ò¸ðÊ, ²ý, «Ï¨Åò ШÇòÐ ²ú¸¼¨Äô Ò¸ðÊì ÌÚ¸ò ¾Ã¢ìÌõ ¾¢Èý.
[/tscii:c140a0a344]
[tscii:c140a0a344]¬õ, ±ÉìÌõ «·§¾ §¾¡ýÚ¸¢ÈÐ. ÌÈû ÓØÅÐõ ´§Ã À¡½¢Â¢ø ±Ø¾ôÀðÊÕôÀ¨¾ ¯½ÃÄ¡õ.[/tscii:c140a0a344]



[tscii:c140a0a344]
À¡¦ÄøÄ¡õ ¿øÄ¡Å¢ý À¡Ä¡§Á¡?
á¦ÄøÄ¡õ ÅûÙÅý¦ºö áÄ¡§Á¡?
[/tscii:c140a0a344]
:clap: :clap: :clap:

[rajraj]

sanjeevi:

http://www.geocities.com/nvkashraf/kur-trans/translations.htm

[bis_mala]

[tscii:3423a59a20]"¬ÀÂý ÌýÚõ «Ú¦¾¡Æ¢§Ä¡÷ áøÁÈôÀ÷
¸¡ÅÄý ¸¡Å¡ý ±É¢ý"

¬ÀÂý == ¬Ìõ ÀÂý ¿¡ðÊø ̨ÈóÐÅ¢Îõ; «Ú¦¾¡Æ¢§Ä¡÷ = «ÚŨ¼ò ¦¾¡Æ¢Ä¡Ç÷¸û, «¾¡ÅÐ ¯Æצ¾¡Æ¢Ö¨¼§Â¡÷; áø = ¾¡õ ÀÕò¾¢ áĢĢÕóÐ ¦ºöÔõ «½¢Å¾üÌâ ¬¨¼¸¨Çî ¦ºöЦ¸¡ûÇ; ÁÈôÀ÷ = ¦ºö þÂÄ¡¾Å÷¸Ç¡¸¢Å¢ÎÅ÷; ¸¡ÅÄý = ¿¡ðÊý ÁýÉý; ¸¡Å¡ý ±É¢ý = Өȧ¡Π¬ðº¢ ¦ºöÐ Á츨Çì ¸¡ì¸Å¢ø¨Ä¡ɡø.

þЧŠþìÌÈÙìÌô ¦À¡Õû. ¸¡Åø ̨Èžɡø, ¾¢Õðθû ÜξġÌõ; «ÚŨ¼ò ¦¾¡Æ¢§Ä¡÷, ¾¡õ µöÅ¢ýÈ¢ì ¸¡Åø§Áü¦¸¡ñÎ ¾õ ¦À¡Õû¸¨Ç, Å¢¨Çîºø¸¨Çì ¸¡òÐ즸¡ûǧÅñÊÅÕõ, áÄ¡ø ¬¨¼ ¦¿öÂ×õ §¿ÃÁ¢ýÈ¢ «øÄø ÀÎÅ÷; ¸ð¼ò н¢Ü¼ «Ã¢¾¡öÅ¢Îõ ±ýÀ¾¡õ.

þìÌÈû °÷측Åø Ó츢Âõ ±ýÀ¨¾ì ÜÚ¸¢ÈÐ.

¸¡ÅÄý ¸¡Åø ̨ÈóÐÅ¢ð¼¡ø «¾É¡ø Áó¾¢Ãõ µ¾¢ì¦¸¡ñÊÕôÀÅ÷¸ÙìÌ ´ýÚÁ¢ø¨Ä!! ¯¾¡Ã½Á¡¸, ¦¸¡û¨Ç측ÃÉ¡ø ¦¸¡øÄôÀð¼Åý ÌÎõÀò¾¢É÷, µÐ¸¢ÈÅÉ¢¼õ ÅóÐ º¡í¸¢Âí¸û ¦ºö «¨ÆôÀ÷; «¾É¡ø µÐ¸¢ÈÅÛìÌ ÅÕÁ¡Éõ ÜÎõ. ¬ðÎìÌðÊ ¸¡½Áü§À¡ÉÅý, ¡÷ ¾¢ÕÊÉ¡÷ ±ýÚ ¸ñ¼È¢Â Áó¾¢ÃÅ¡¾¢Â¢¼õ ÅÃÄ¡õ....þôÀÊ¡¸, °÷¦¸ðÎô§À¡É¡ø Áó¾¢Ã了¡ø¸¢ÈÅÛìÌ ±ó¾ì ̨È×Á¢ø¨Ä. ¬¸§Å áø ±ýÀÐ µÐ¸¢ÈÅý á¨Äì ÌȢ측Ð. ¿¢¨Éò¾¦¾øÄ¡õ ¿¼óÐÅ¢ð¼¡ø ( «¾¡ÅÐ ±øÄ¡õ Ó¨ÈôÀʧ ¿¼óÐÅ¢ð¼¡ø ) ¦¾öÅõ ²ÐÁ¢ø¨Ä ±ýÀÐÁðÎÁøÄ, Áó¾¢Ãõ ¦º¡øÀŨÉÔõ ¡Õõ §¾ÊÅÃÁ¡ð¼¡÷¸û!![/tscii:3423a59a20]

[Sudhaama]

[tscii:6a871ca728]¬†¡! «ýÀ÷ Bis_mala -Å¢ý Å¢Çì¸õ «Õ¨Á.

¬É¡ø ´Õ ÌÆôÀõ. ¯ÆÅ÷¸ÙìÌõ ¦¿º×ò¦¾¡Æ¢Ç¡ÇÕì¸¡É áÖìÌõ ±ýÉ ¦¾¡¼÷Ò?.... Å¢Çí¸Å¢ø¨Ä.[/tscii:6a871ca728]

[bis_mala]

[tscii:8f03bbf59e]"«¨¾Ôõ¬úóÐ º¢ó¾¢òÐ즸¡ñ§¼¾¡ý Å¢Çì¸ò¨¾ ±Ø¾¢§Éý!

¸õÀý Å£ðÎì ¸ðÎò¾È¢Ôõ ¸Å¢À¡Îõ ±ýÚ §¸ûÅ¢ôÀðÊÕôÀ£÷¸§Ç!! "«¾¡ÅÐ ¦ÀÕí¸Å¢¸ûܼ ¦º¡ó¾Á¡¸ ¦¿öÐ ¯Îò¾¢ì¦¸¡ñ¼ ¸¡ÄÁÐ. (¸õÀý ¸¡Äò¾¢§Ä§Â «ôÀÊ ±ýÈ¡ø ÅûÙÅý ¸¡Äò¾¢ø ¯ÆÅ÷¸û, «ÚŨ¼¦ºö§¾¡÷ ±ýÉ Å¢¾¢Å¢Ä측?) µö× §¿Ãí¸Ç¢ø ¦º¡ó¾ ¯¨¼¸¨Ç ¦¿öЦ¸¡ñ¼¡÷¸û. ¦¿ºÅ¡Ç÷¸û ¦¸¡ïºõ ¯Æ×õ ¦ºö¾¡÷¸û!! «ÚŨ¼¦ºö§Å¡ÕìÌ «ÚŨ¼ ¾¨Ä¡ÂÐ; ¦¿º× - ¾ÁìÌ §Åñʨ¾ò ¾¡§Á ¦ºöЦ¸¡ûž¡¸¢Â ¿¼ÅÊ쨸¸Ç¢¦Ä¡ýÚ. «ÚŨ¼ ¦ºöÐ «¨¾ô À¡Ð¸¡ì¸§Å «øÄø À¼§ÅñÊ¢Õó¾¡ø, ÁüÈ ÒÈ ¿¼ÅÊ쨸¸ÙìÌ §¿Ãõ ²Ð? ÁÈóÐÅ¢¼§ÅñÊÂо¡ý!!

Except in few instances involving people in the higher echelon of society, specialization or division of labour was never absolute. ( Even in Europe before the advent of the sewing machine, poor wives had to stitch coats for their husbands and brew beer for him to drink and enjoy!! ) To purchase these services and goods would have cost a fortune!) Of course, the princess had everything done for her!!
Thus nool played an important part in the lives of most of the people.


¸¡ó¾¢ÂʸûÜ¼î ¦º¡ó¾Á¡¸§Å ¦¿º×¦ºöЦ¸¡ñ¼¾¢ø, ¦¿º× ¡Õõ¦ºÂžüÌâÂÐ ±ýÀÐ ¿ýÌ ¦¾Ã¢¸¢ÈÐ.[/tscii:8f03bbf59e]

[kannannn]

[tscii:c3ad80187a]"¬ÀÂý ÌýÚõ «Ú¦¾¡Æ¢§Ä¡÷ áøÁÈôÀ÷
¸¡ÅÄý ¸¡Å¡ý ±É¢ý"

¬ÀÂý == ¬Ìõ ÀÂý ¿¡ðÊø ̨ÈóÐÅ¢Îõ; «Ú¦¾¡Æ¢§Ä¡÷ = «ÚŨ¼ò ¦¾¡Æ¢Ä¡Ç÷¸û, «¾¡ÅÐ ¯Æצ¾¡Æ¢Ö¨¼§Â¡÷; áø = ¾¡õ ÀÕò¾¢ áĢĢÕóÐ ¦ºöÔõ «½¢Å¾üÌâ ¬¨¼¸¨Çî ¦ºöЦ¸¡ûÇ; ÁÈôÀ÷ = ¦ºö þÂÄ¡¾Å÷¸Ç¡¸¢Å¢ÎÅ÷; ¸¡ÅÄý = ¿¡ðÊý ÁýÉý; ¸¡Å¡ý ±É¢ý = Өȧ¡Π¬ðº¢ ¦ºöÐ Á츨Çì ¸¡ì¸Å¢ø¨Ä¡ɡø.

þЧŠþìÌÈÙìÌô ¦À¡Õû. ¸¡Åø ̨Èžɡø, ¾¢Õðθû ÜξġÌõ; «ÚŨ¼ò ¦¾¡Æ¢§Ä¡÷, ¾¡õ µöÅ¢ýÈ¢ì ¸¡Åø§Áü¦¸¡ñÎ ¾õ ¦À¡Õû¸¨Ç, Å¢¨Çîºø¸¨Çì ¸¡òÐ즸¡ûǧÅñÊÅÕõ, áÄ¡ø ¬¨¼ ¦¿öÂ×õ §¿ÃÁ¢ýÈ¢ «øÄø ÀÎÅ÷; ¸ð¼ò н¢Ü¼ «Ã¢¾¡öÅ¢Îõ ±ýÀ¾¡õ.

þìÌÈû °÷측Åø Ó츢Âõ ±ýÀ¨¾ì ÜÚ¸¢ÈÐ.

¸¡ÅÄý ¸¡Åø ̨ÈóÐÅ¢ð¼¡ø «¾É¡ø Áó¾¢Ãõ µ¾¢ì¦¸¡ñÊÕôÀÅ÷¸ÙìÌ ´ýÚÁ¢ø¨Ä!! ¯¾¡Ã½Á¡¸, ¦¸¡û¨Ç측ÃÉ¡ø ¦¸¡øÄôÀð¼Åý ÌÎõÀò¾¢É÷, µÐ¸¢ÈÅÉ¢¼õ ÅóÐ º¡í¸¢Âí¸û ¦ºö «¨ÆôÀ÷; «¾É¡ø µÐ¸¢ÈÅÛìÌ ÅÕÁ¡Éõ ÜÎõ. ¬ðÎìÌðÊ ¸¡½Áü§À¡ÉÅý, ¡÷ ¾¢ÕÊÉ¡÷ ±ýÚ ¸ñ¼È¢Â Áó¾¢ÃÅ¡¾¢Â¢¼õ ÅÃÄ¡õ....þôÀÊ¡¸, °÷¦¸ðÎô§À¡É¡ø Áó¾¢Ã了¡ø¸¢ÈÅÛìÌ ±ó¾ì ̨È×Á¢ø¨Ä. ¬¸§Å áø ±ýÀÐ µÐ¸¢ÈÅý á¨Äì ÌȢ측Ð. ¿¢¨Éò¾¦¾øÄ¡õ ¿¼óÐÅ¢ð¼¡ø ( «¾¡ÅÐ ±øÄ¡õ Ó¨ÈôÀʧ ¿¼óÐÅ¢ð¼¡ø ) ¦¾öÅõ ²ÐÁ¢ø¨Ä ±ýÀÐÁðÎÁøÄ, Áó¾¢Ãõ ¦º¡øÀŨÉÔõ ¡Õõ §¾ÊÅÃÁ¡ð¼¡÷¸û!![/tscii:c3ad80187a]

[tscii:c3ad80187a]«Æ¸¡É Å¢Çì¸õ. ±ýÉ¢¼õ ¯ûÇ ¯¨Ã¢ø (Ó. ÅþáºÉ¡÷ ±É §Áø Àì¸ò¾¢ø ÌÈ¢ôÀ¢¼ôÀðÎûÇÐ. ¬É¡ø ¯¨È ¿£ì¸ôÀðÎûÇÐ) «ó¾½Õõ «È áø¸¨Ç ÁÈôÀ÷ ±Éì ÜÈôÀðÎûÇÐ. Áü¦È¡Õ ³Âõ - 'ÌʨÁ' ±Ûõ «¾¢¸¡Ãò¾¢ø ¯Â÷ÌÊ¢ø À¢Èó¾Å÷¸Ç¢ý ´Øì¸õ ÀüÈ¢ ÜÈôÀθ¢ÈÐ. ¯Â÷ÌÊ ±É ÅûÙÅ÷ ±¨¾ì ÌÈ¢ôÀ¢Î¸¢È¡÷?[/tscii:c3ad80187a]

[Sudhaama]

[tscii:74ae1861ea]quote="bis_mala"

// ÁÄ÷Å¡öô À¢Èó¾ Å¡º¸ò §¾§É¡
¡§¾¡ º¢Èó¾Ð ±ýÌÅ¢÷ ¬Â¢ý
§Å¾õ µ¾¢ý ŢƢ¿£÷ ¦ÀÕ츢
¦¿ïÍ ¦¿ìÌÕ¸¢ ¿¢üÀÅ÷ ¸¡ñ¸¢§Äõ!
¾¢ÕÅ¡ º¸Á¢í ¦¸¡Õ¸¡ø µ¾¢ý
ÍÕí¸ø ÁÉÓõ ¸¨ÃóÐÌõ ¸ñ¸û!

----- ¸À¢Ä÷ «¸Åø.

¬Ã¢Â §Å¾í¸û ÀÂÉüȨŠ±ýÀÐ ¾Á¢ú «È¢»÷, ¦ÀÕõÒÄÅ÷, þ¨ÈÔ½÷× ¦¸¡ñ§¼¡÷, º¢ò¾÷¸û ÓÊ×.//

«ùÅ¡Ú ÜÚÅÐ ¾ì¸Ð «ýÚ. º£Ã¢ÂÐ ±É ¯Ä¸È¢ó¾ ´Õ ¯ÅÁ¡Éò¨¾ò ¾¡úò¾¢ì¸¡ðÊ, ¯Å§ÁÂô-¦À¡ÕÇ¢ý º¢Èô¨À Á¢¨¸ô-ÀÎò¾¢î¦º¡øÅÐõ µ÷ ¾Á¢úì-¸ÕòÐ ¿Âõ. ÒĨÁ-«ÆÌ.

¸õÀý ÜÚ¸¢È¡ý º£¨¾Â¢ý ¿¨¼ÂÆÌ ¸ñÎ «ýÉô-ÀȨŠ¿¡½¢Â¾¡õ.

Á£É¡ðº¢Âõ¨Á À¢û¨Çò-¾Á¢Æ¢ø .... Á£É¡ðº¢Â¢ý Ó¸-«ÆÌ ºó¾¢ÃÉ¢Ûõ §ÁõÀð¼Ð ±É×õ.... Ò¸§Æó¾¢Ôõ ¾ÁÂó¾¢Â¢ý «ÆÌ ÀüÈ¢ þ§¾ §À¡Ä Á¢¨¸ôÀÎò¾¢ÂÐõ ¸Å¢»÷ ÁÃÒ.

þ¾É¡ø «ýÉò¨¾§Â¡, ºó¾¢Ã¨É§Â¡ §Å¾ò¨¾§Â¡ ¾¡úòÐõ ¸ÕòÐì ¦¸¡ûÇÄ¡¸¡Ð.

"§Å¾õ ¦ºÈ¢ó¾ ¾Á¢ú¿¡Î" ±ýÚõ.... "§Å¾õ ±ýÚõ Å¡ú¸ ±ýÚ ¦¸¡ðÎ Óçº".... ±ýÚ À¡Ã¾¢ ÁðÎõ «øÄ.... «ÅÛìÌ Óó¨¾Â Ҹơ÷ ÒÄÅ÷¸Ùõ §ÀÃÈ¢»÷¸û ¡ÅÕõ Å¢¾¢Å¢Ä츢ýÈ¢Ôõ ³Âõ¾¢Ã¢ÀÈ×õ §Å¾ò¨¾ô §À¡üÈ¢§Â ŨÃÂÚòÐûÇÉ÷. þ§¾ ÒÄÅ÷ ¸À¢Ä÷ §ÅÚ þ¼í¸Ç¢ø §Å¾ò¨¾ô §À¡üÈ¢ÔûÇ¡÷.

º¢ò¾÷¸Ç¢ý ¦¸¡û¨¸§Â §ÅÚ. «Å÷¸û Á¢¸×õ ÀÃó¾-¸ñ§½¡ð¼õ ¦¸¡ñ¼Å÷¸û.... ±¨¾Ôõ ¦ÅÚ측РþÆ¢× ¦ºö¡Ð... ´ý¨Èì-¸¡ðÊÖõ Áü¦È¡ýÚ º¢Èó¾Ð ±ýÈ ¸Õò¾¢§Ä ±ÅÃÐ ÁÉÓõ §¿¡¸¡¾Åñ½õ ´ôÀ¢ðÎ측ðÎõ «ÈÅÆ¢§Â º¢ò¾÷-¦¿È¢.

¯¾¡Ã½Á¡¸ ¯ÕÅÅÆ¢À¡ð¨¼ì¸¡ðÊÖõ «ÕÅ-ÅÆ¢À¡§¼ º¢Èó¾Ð ±ýÈ ¸Õò¨¾ ÅÄ¢ÔÚò¾¢ÔûÇÉ÷ º¢ò¾÷¸û. þÐ ÌÈ¢òÐ ²ü¸É§Å ÀƦÁ¡Æ¢¸û þ¨Æ¢ø º¢Ä ¿¡ð¸ûÓýÒ Å¢Ç츢Ôû§Çý.[/tscii:74ae1861ea]

[stranger]

54. பெண்ணின் பெருந்தக்க யாவுள கற்பென்னும்
திண்மைஉண் டாகப் பெறின்.
What greater fortune is for men than a constant chaste woman?

----------------------------------------

What would be Kushbu and Sugashini's opinion on this kuRaL??? :roll:



[tscii:1fe12b1212]¾¢ÕÅûÙŨÃò¾¡ý male chauvnist ±ýÚ ±ô§À¡§¾¡ brand ¦ºöÐÅ¢ð¼¡÷¸§Ç? ¦Àñ½Ê¨Áò¾Éò¨¾ ¬¾Ã¢ôÀ¾¢ø Ó¾ø ¬Ç¡§Á???!!![/tscii:1fe12b1212]

Really?! :roll:

That's news to me PP! :D

Stranger, [tscii:1fe12b1212](¾Á¢Æ¢ø ¯í¸û ¦À¨à ±ôÀÊ ±ØÐÅÐ?!), ¾í¸û ¾¢ÕìÌÈû §Áü§¸¡¨Ç ¿¡ý ²üÀ¾üÌ ¾Âí̸¢§Èý. ¸¡Ã½õ, ¸Ä¡îº¡Ã À⽡Á ÅÇ÷ ±ýÀÐ ¾Å¢÷ì¸ ÓÊ¡¾ ´ýÚ. ¿ÁÐ ÀÆì¸ ÅÆì¸í¸û ¸¡Äò¾¢ü째üÀ Á¡È¢ ÅÕ¸¢ýÈÐ. ¬É¡ø «Ð ¬§Ã¡ì¸¢ÂÁ¡É ¾¢¨ºìÌ Á¡È §ÅñÎõ ±ýÀ¾¢ø ±ó¾ ºó§¾¸Óõ þø¨Ä. ¾¢ÕÅûÙÅ÷ ¸¡Äò¾¢ø ¦Àñ½¢üÌ ¬¨½ Å¢¼ ¸üÒ §ÁÖõ Ó츢ÂÁ¡¸ þÕó¾¢Õì¸Ä¡õ. À¡Ã¾¢ ¸¡Äò¾¢ø «Ð þÕ À¡ÄÕìÌõ ¦À¡Ð ±Ûõ ±ñ½õ þÕó¾¢Õì¸Ä¡õ. ¬É¡ø, þýÚ «ó¾ ±ñ½ò¨¾ ¿¨¼Ó¨ÈìÌ ¦¸¡ñÎ ÅÕõ ¸¡Äõ ÅóРŢð¼Ð. ±ýÛ¨¼Â ´ôÀ£Î þÕÀ¡Ä¡¨ÃÔõ ¿øÅƢ¢ø ¦ºøÄòàñΞü§¸ÂýÈ¢ ¾¡ó§¾¡ýÈ¢ò¾ÉÁ¡¸ ¾¢Ã¢ÂòàñΞü¸ýÚ. ¾¢ÕìÌÈû ÀüȢ š¾ò¾¢ø þ¨¾ô ÀüÈ¢ô §ÀºÄ¡õ. :) [/tscii:1fe12b1212]

I am sorry that I posted a part in tamil, but I felt that since I am writing with reference to Thirukkural, I should post it in tamil.

We seldom hear ppl. (inc. women) saying tat our culture had been on the decline say in the 1950s (or even 20 yrs ago!) even tho most of the men in our society hav been doing things against it! Wasn't smoking/drinking/behaivng loosely common among our men even 50+ yrs ago??
Lambretta, that's an interesting observation because, my grandparents used to say the same thing about my parents' generation and I am sure it was the same before that. My point exactly as I have put it in tamil is, why talk about loose morals among both sexes? Let's talk about strong morals and require the man to take equal participation in defining the moral standards of the society. Why should a woman all the time bear the burden of being the torch bearer of human morality? And as I said earlier, we have been conditioned to think that woman is the pivot around which the moral codes have been defined. Let's change that conditioning. As long as we dont do that, men will continue to take advantage.



kannan!

where did thiruvaLLuvar say, kaRpu is unimportant for men :?:

* As far as this thirukuRaL is concerned it is TRUE, any man would be proud if his wife is a "paththini".

* No son or daughter will be proud of his/her mom if he/she hears that his/her mom has had more than one relationship!

Tell me where I am wrong here? :)


Yes stranger, you are right. I agree that the Kural doesn't say chastity is unimportant for men. I just infered that the times were such that the chastity of men was not as important as women's to deserve mention in the Kural. And any man would certainly be proud if his wife is chaste. But why be silent about the chastity of men? This silence encourages men to infer that they are free and cross the line. Wouldn't a woman be equally proud if her husband is chaste? Why don't we talk enough about the chastity of a man as much as we talk about a woman's. The thrust of my argument is, not only should we place both sexes on the same pedestal, but we should emphasize enough to men that they also have the same responsibilities - something that we unfortunately don't do now.

[kannannn]

[tscii:416c9e882a]stranger, ¾Á¢ú º¢É¢Á¡ Àì¸ò¾¢ø ¾í¸û §Áü§¸¡û:
பெண்ணின் பெருந்தக்க யாவுள கற்பென்னும்
திண்மைஉண் டாகப் பெறின்
¦Àñ ¸üÒ¨¼ÂÅÇ¡¸ þÕôÀ§¾, ´Õ ¬ÏìÌ ¸¢¨¼ì¸ì ÜÊ Á¢¸ô ¦Àâ §ÀÚ ±ýÀÐ ¯í¸û Å¡¾õ. ±ý §¸ûÅ¢, ¾¢ÕÅûÙÅ÷ ¸¡Äò¾¢ø ¬ÏìÌõ ¦ÀñÏìÌõ ±ó¾ «Ç× ¸üÒ ¦À¡Ðšɾ¡¸ þÕó¾Ð ±ýÀ§¾? ²ý ¾¢ÕÅûÙÅ÷ ¬½¢ñ ¸ü¨Àô ÀüÈ¢ ±Ð×õ ÜÈÅ¢ø¨Ä? «øÄÐ ¿¡ý ²§¾Ûõ þíÌ ºÃ¢Â¡¸ ÒâóÐ ¦¸¡ûÇÅ¢ø¨Ä¡?
þøÅ¡ú쨸 ±Ûõ «¾¢¸¡Ãò¾¢ø ¾¢ÕÅûÙÅ÷ ´Õ ¬ñ ±ôÀÊ «È ¦¿È¢Â¢ø ¦ºøÄ §ÅñÎõ ±ÉìÜÚ¸¢È¡÷. ¯¾¡Ã½ò¾¢üÌ:
«È¦ÉÉô À𼧾 þøÅ¡ú쨸 «·Ðõ
À¢Èý ÀÆ¢ôÀÐ þøġ¢ý ¿ýÚ
¬¸ þíÌ «È ¦¿È¢ ±ýÀÐ ¸½Åý Á¨ÉÅ¢ìÌ ¯ñ¨Á¡¸ (¸üÒ¼ý) þÕôÀÐ ±ýÀÐõ «¼íÌõ ±Éì ¦¸¡ûÇÄ¡Á¡?
¾¢ÕìÌÈÇ¢ý ºÁ ¸¡Ä þÄ츢Âò¾¢ø ¬ñ½¢ý ¸ü¨Àô ÀüÈ¢ ±í§¸Ûõ ÌÈ¢ôÒñ¼¡?[/tscii:416c9e882a]

[kannannn]

stranger, [tscii:790c292e71]¿£í¸û Óó¾¢ì¦¸¡ñΠŢðË÷¸û[/tscii:790c292e71] :D

[haran]

[tscii:bc03dd37b3]//¾¢ÕÅûÙÅ÷ ¸¡Äò¾¢ø ¬ÏìÌõ ¦ÀñÏìÌõ ±ó¾ «Ç× ¸üÒ ¦À¡Ðšɾ¡¸ þÕó¾Ð ±ýÀ§¾? ²ý ¾¢ÕÅûÙÅ÷ ¬½¢ñ ¸ü¨Àô ÀüÈ¢ ±Ð×õ ÜÈÅ¢ø¨Ä?//

À¢ÈÉ¢ø Å¢¨Æ¡¨Á, ŨÃÅ¢ý Á¸Ç¢÷ ±Ûõ þÃñÎ «¾¢¸¡Ãò¾¢Öõ «Å÷ ¬½¢ý ¸ü¨Àô ÀüÈ¢ þýÛõ ¬ÆÁ¡¸ì ÜÈ¢ÔûÇ¡÷. ²§É¡ ¦Àñ½¢Âì¸ '«È¢× ƒ£Å¢¸û' þ¾¨Éô ÀÊì¸ ÁÈ(Ú)츢ýÈÉ÷ ±ýÀо¡ý Å¢Çí¸Å¢ø¨Ä.[/tscii:bc03dd37b3]

[pavalamani pragasam]

[tscii:1cd99efee4]¾¢ÕÅûÙŨà º¢Ö¨Å¢ø «¨È §ÅñÎõ ±ýÚ ¾£÷Á¡É¢ò¾ À¢ý ÁÈôÀÐ ÁÚôÀÐ þÂøÒ¾¡§É! Å¡úÅ¢Âø º¡Ãò¨¾ ͨÅÂ¡É ºôÀ¢î º¡ôÀ¢¼ ¯¸ó¾ º¢Ú Á¢ð¼¡ö¸Ç¡¸ ¯ÕðÊ ÅÆí¸¢î ¦ºýÈ ¦ÀÕ󾨸¨Â À¡Ã¡ð¼¡Å¢ð¼¡Öõ ÀƢ측ÁÄ¡ÅÐ þÕôÀ¡÷¸Ç¡ º¢ÚÁ¾¢§Â¡÷ ±ýÀ§¾ ±ý §À¡ý§È¡÷ ¬¾í¸õ!
¦¾öÅò¨¾ ¦¾¡Æ¡Ð ¦¸¡ñ¼Å¨É ¦¾¡Øõ Àò¾¢É¢ Á¨Æ¨Â ÅÃŨÆìÌõ ÅøĨÁ ¦ÀüÈÅû ±ýÚ ÓüÚõ «È¢ó¾ »¡É¢ ´ÕÅ÷ ¦º¡øŨ¾ "¦Àñ½Ê¨Áò¾Éõ" ±ýÚõ "Àò¾¢É¢"¡¢Õì¸ §ÅñÎÁ¡ ¿£ þó¾ Å¢¨Ä ¦¸¡ÎòÐ ±ýÚõ À¢Ãº¡Ãõ ¦ºö ±ò¾¨É §À÷, ±ò¾¨É ²Î¸û/°¼¸í¸û! "¦¸¡ì¦¸É ¿¢¨Éò¾¡Â¡ ¦¸¡í¸½Å¡?" ±ýÚ ¸ñ½¡ø ±Ã¢ì¸ Âò¾É¢ò¾ Ð÷Å¡º¨Ã§Â ±¾¢÷ ¦¸¡ûÙõ ¾Á¢ú ÌÄ Àò¾¢É¢ô ¦ÀñÊâý ̽ ¿Äý¸¨Ç «Æ¸¡¸ ±Îò¾¢ÂõÀ¢Â «õÁ¸¡ÛìÌ ±ò¾¨É ±¾¢÷ôÒ! §Å¸Á¡¸, Å¢Àã¾Á¡¸ Á¡È¢ ÅÕõ º÷ŧ¾º ÝÆÄ¢§Ä «È¢Â¡ º¢ÚÁ¢¸Ç¢ý ÁÉí¸Ç¢ø ÌÆôÀÓõ ¦À¡øÄ¡ò¾ÉÓõ ¯ÕÅ¡ìÌõ À¢Ãº¡Ãí¸¨Ç ±ôÀÊ ¸ðÎôÀÎòÐÅÐ???[/tscii:1cd99efee4]

[kannannn]

Can't wait to get home and read the posts and see what I have missed.

[kannannn]

[tscii:ec31c8f7ef]haran, Á¢ì¸ ¿ýÈ¢. ¿£í¸û ÌÈ¢ôÀ¢ðÎûÇ «¾¢¸¡Ãí¸¨Çô ÀÊò§¾ý. ¸üÈÐ ¨¸Áñ «Ç×..
¬¸ ¸üÒ ±Ûõ ¦º¡øÄ¢ø ÜÈ¡Å¢ð¼¡Öõ, ¬ñ¸Ùõ Á¨ÉÅ¢ìÌ ¯ñ¨Á¡¸ šƧÅñÎõ ±ýÀ¨¾ ÀÍÁÃò¾¡½¢ §À¡ø ÜÈ¢ÔûÇ¡÷. ¦¿¸¢úó§¾ý. Á¸¢úó§¾ý.[/tscii:ec31c8f7ef]

[stranger]

[tscii:4571739842]¸ñ½ý, †Ãý!

¿Ê¸÷ ¿Ê¨¸¸Ù¨¼Â ¦º¡ó¾ Å¡ú쨸¨Â «ÅÁ¾¢ôÀÐ ¾ÅÚ ±ýÀ¨¾ ¿¡ý ¾¢¼Á¡¸ ¿õÒ¸¢§Èý!

«§¾ ºÁÂò¾¢ø ¿Ê¸÷ ¿Ê¨¸¸û ¿õ¨Áô (¦À¡ÐÁì¸û) À¡÷òÐ º¢Ã¢ìÌõ «Ç×ìÌ ¿ÁÐ ¸Ä¡îº¡Ãõ ÁüÚõ ¿¡õ þýÛõ º£÷̨ÄóÐÅ¢¼Å¢ø¨Ä ±ýÀ¾¢ø ±ó¾Å¢¾ ºó§¾¸Óõ þø¨Ä!

Å¡ú¸ ¾Á¢ú! :)

[/tscii:4571739842]

[devapriya]

Friends,

we saw a discussion as Kural can be Samanam-Jains.

Friends, we need to understand that 2nd Cen. Tiruvalluvar Time- Both Buddism and Jainism where Agnostic, and insisting on God worship, which is toomuch away from Valluvar. Hence Valluvar can never be both of this.

Again Jain on that time don't bath, because that might harm water bodies, But Valluvar says- Body is Purified by Water. Valluvar talks in another Kural on Drinking of Honey again Prohibited by Jains.

Valluvar says Vedas in high Regard and that he is Vedic.

More about any interpolations in Kural, absolutely No- Detailed post shortly.
Devapriya.

[bis_mala]

Valluvar says Vedas in high Regard and that he is Vedic.

You were saying it was written by a Christian convert during your incarnation as PaulThomas. Now you are saying he was Vedic.
What else you are able to say?

LET US HAVE THE PROOF.

[mms]

Dear Bismala,

Very Clearly it has been proved by Devapriya with Highest Authorities that Valluvar regards Vedas and advises to do so.

Why don't you accept the Truth?

Can we treat all who post in Favour of Sanskrit as Solomon and for Meaningless Tamil Chavunism as FSG in various Incarnations.

Answer the posts - on its merits, the points raised here look reasonable and please reply to that.

MMS

[stranger]

Dear Bismala, Very Clearly it has been proved by Devapriya with Highest Authorities that Valluvar regards Vedas and advises to do so.

:rotfl:

Highest authority!!!! :lol:

Could you explain the following thirukURaL???? :roll:

[tscii:993c2d3932]±ô¦À¡Õû ¡÷ ¡÷ Å¡ö §¸ðÀ¢Ûõ «ô¦À¡Õû
¦Áöô¦À¡Õû ¸¡ñÀ¾È¢×! 8-) [/tscii:993c2d3932]

[bis_mala]

[tscii:035c8841c3]
Dear Bismala,

Very Clearly it has been proved by Devapriya with Highest Authorities that Valluvar regards Vedas and advises to do so.

Why don't you accept the Truth?

Can we treat all who post in Favour of Sanskrit as Solomon and for Meaningless Tamil Chavunism as FSG in various Incarnations.

Answer the posts - on its merits, the points raised here look reasonable and please reply to that.
MMS

The 8th incarnation of MosesMohamedSolomon has now descended. Not surprisingly it has spoken in its familiar terms.

Well done, MosesMohamedSolomon!! You think you can defraud me if you abbreviate MosesMohamedSolomon to "mms"? No way!!

MosesMohamedSolomon! Solomon! Devapriya! Pavitra! PaulThomas! mms!
and more......[/tscii:035c8841c3] யார் இந்த மர்மயோகி??

//Answer the posts - .................................... reply to that.//

ஆகாகா!! நான் எந்த வேடத்தில் வந்தால் உனக்கென்ன?? நீ ஆடுகிறபடி ஆடிக் காட்டுவது உன் வேலை என்கிறீரா? பரவாயில்லையே உம் உத்தி....இப்படியெல்லாமா எங்களை ஏமாற்ற்ப் பார்க்கிறீர்?

[devapriya]

Friends,

Tirukural belongs to 3rd Cen CE, which was almost Kalapirar period, dominated by Jains. SO Valluvar took a Secular outlook to explain Vedic Thoughts and Let me explain them in my next posts.

Devapriya

[bis_mala]

KuRaL was composed at around 33 BCE or before. U.V. Saminatha Iyer agreed.

[NVK Ashraf]

I have been visiting this thread on and off. Whenever I logged in the subject used to be unattractive for me to respond.

Looking back to some of the points raised in this forum, I would like to respond to two issues:

(i) Dating of Tirrukkural: Like most literary works in India, dating of Kural has also been inconclusive. We can only speculate and no one can provide us a period and get away without any criticism. Must have been written any time between the 1st century AD to 6th Century AD.

(ii) Next is the religion of Valluvar: So much has been talked about and written. The only widely accepted "NOTION" is that he must have been an "unorthodox" Hindu. However, Jaina claims are the most valid. I have been studying the Kural since 2000 and the more I dwell into it, the more I realize that the work is based on Jaina ideals and the names/attributes of God(s) Valluvar refer to in Chapter 1 are more apt to describe Jaina deities than that of any other faith.

I am in the process of completing a comprehensive article in English: "Jaina ideas in Tirukkural: திருக்குறளில் சமண தழுவல்கள்" which will soon be uploaded at my site. We can take forward this dicussion in detail once this is done.

[Sudhaama]

[quote="NVK Ashraf"]

//I have been visiting this thread on and off. Whenever I logged in the subject used to be unattractive for me to respond.//

Thank you for your Feedback.. exhibiting your frankness. Well.!.
.. Why should you restrict yourselves as the GUEST only?...

...You can be the HOST too at least in some respects... thus FILLING UP THE GAP... whatever you may mean so.

// Looking back to some of the points raised in this forum, I would like to respond...
.....................

[/b].. the religion of Valluvar:[/b] So much has been talked about and written. The only widely accepted "NOTION" is that he must have been an "unorthodox" Hindu.//

Yes. There are more proofs for such an arguent than the others.. NOT A NOTION.

// However, Jaina claims are the most valid... I realize that the work is based on Jaina ideals and the names/attributes of God(s) Valluvar refer to in Chapter 1 are more apt to describe Jaina deities than that of any other faith.//

No. Scholars say that this is the very chapter-I which is leading us more towards the concept of Vedic-faith than other faiths

Besides in the other chapters too...there are more Terminologies of Vedic-faith...than on the other faiths..

For example.... the words...

"THAVVAIYAI kaatti-vidum"... "Thavvai" means Moodevi of Hindu faith.

His wordings "Mazhiththalum Neettalum Vaendaa...". ... directly means Budhism and Jainism. So it cannot be either.

But one specific Terminology... is conspicuosly dragging us towards the thoughts on Budhism.

"MALAR-MISAI YAEHINAAN MAANADI..." means the God or some such Soul of Reverence... who walked on the Flower(s) ...

That was the Lord Budha. Although these words are meant differently by Parimael-azhahar and Manakkudavar... attributing more towards Hinduism...

Whereas the descriptive meaning of another Scholar, Dharumar..for the same Terminology... takes us on the above lines towards Budhism.... which we are unable to repudiate. forcefully.

One Tamil-Scholar put forth an argument in the International Tamil-Conference.... that Thirukkuralh is the Tamil-form of Bible... attributing towards Christianity... He put forth several points of interest.

Only because of so much room for different faiths...

... along with the LARGE-HEARTED concepts towards Secularism...

...BROAD-BASED and Common for all sorts of Religious faiths prevalent in the Global arena...

... Thirukkuralh is named as PODHU-MARHAI....and so accepted by Scholars of common outlook.

It needs and also has adequate substances for a detailed and elaborate discussions. and arguments towards various angles.

// I am in the process of completing a comprehensive article in English: "Jaina ideas in Tirukkural: திருக்குறளில் சமண தழுவல்கள்" which will soon be uploaded at my site. We can take forward this dicussion in detail once this is done.//

Well. Welcome..Glad to know... Please proceed and post them here too for our discussions.

One prime Question... I seek your Answer...

If Thirukkuralh is of Samana faith... can there be a Chapter on ... KAAMATHTHU PAAL?...

...the concept of breeding Human-desire .... especially towards Women?

...a diametrically opposite spirit of Budhism and Jainism.??...!!!

[NVK Ashraf]

Dear Sudhaama,

Thanks for the response. I will get back to all your remarks once I complete the article I am writing. The upload will happen only during the second week of May as I will be on tour from tomorrow (out of office).

For the time being, I would restrict myself to your last query about Kamathuppaal.

The answer is very very simple. Tirukkural is NOT a book on Jainism or Jaina philosophy, but a book founded on Jaina ethics. Unlike other works like Naladiyar or Ashta Pahuda [of Kundakunda] (to name a few treatise on Jainism), the Kural is "this wordly" and not life negating. It does not contain the usual Jaina jargons like miseries of life, talking about death, avoiding women etc. But for this, the Kural would have also occupied the already long list of Jaina works in Tamil! Valluvar seem to have deliberately avoided these, though he does refer to Impermanence, Realization and at one place on death.

Thus the Kural is not a book on Jainism, but a work of a Jaina. Hoping to convey my views more effectively in my article.

More later. Perhaps after 10 days.

[Sudhaama]

Dear Ashraf,

Thanks... Your reply to my Question regarding the Jainic Life-outlook on Kamaththu-paal ... is neither convincing... nor complete.

However I will wait for your convenience to take this up later...of your own accord.

For your Research- analysis,... I suggest your COMPARATIVE- STUDY on ...

...the parallel meanings of the three AUTHENTIC Urai-vallunars viz. Dharumar, Manakkudavar, Parimael-Azhahar...

...on each Paraphrase and Terminology... of Specific attraction to you.

..especially of DHARUMAR ...whose approach is found to be mostly of Jainic...

....because he was a Jain by himself .

Best Wishes for YOUR SUCCESS... IN YOUR RARE VENTURE.!!!

[NVK Ashraf]

Dear Sudhaama,

Managed to get some time during travel.... to post a response.....


Your reply to my Question regarding the Jainic Life-outlook on Kamaththu-paal ... is neither convincing... nor complete.
To be frank, your question itself was unfair. The question has been asked under the assumption that Jains have nothing to do with sex! If this is your assumption, then your theory should be relevant to Buddhism as well (which is also fundamentally a religion of monks)! There is a widespread mistaken notion that all Jaina writers should have been achararyas and therefore wouldn't have dwelt on subjects like "Love". Five years before, I myself was misled by this common belief that any chance of Valluvar's possible Jaina background should be ruled out because Kaamathuppaal exists!!!.

Moreover, your question gives the impressions that Jains do not breed and reproduce!


For your Research- analysis,... I suggest your COMPARATIVE- STUDY on ... ...the parallel meanings of the three AUTHENTIC Urai-vallunars viz. Dharumar, Manakkudavar, Parimael-Azhahar... ...on each Paraphrase and Terminology... of Specific attraction to you. ..especially of DHARUMAR ...whose approach is found to be mostly of Jainic... ....because he was a Jain by himself
Thanks. I have Kasi Madam's comparative commentaries on all the five major commentators of Kural: Manakkudavar, Pariperumaal, Parithiar, Parimelazhagar and Kalingar. But I am not basing my conclusions on these commentaries. I didn't know Dharumar was a Jain. This is news to me. Hope you are aware the even Manakkudavar (the oldest commentator?) is also considered a Jain.

I am not sure if Dharumar's commentary is available in full...!!!?

[haran]

Dear Ashraf,

Did you have any points to say that Valluvar can not be a Saivar?

With regards.

[NVK Ashraf]

Dear Haran,

If Valluvar was a Saivite or for that matter someone inclined to Saiva ideas and principles, it should then not only be reflected in his work the Kural, but also dominate and pervade throughout the work.

We have Saivite literatures, like the Tirumurais, to compare with. A good example is Tirumandiram. We have to ask the question if the Kural is like Tirumandiram in tenets, ideals and philosophy. I am afraid it is not, apart from some similarities in some chapter headings and few mantras.

I would have loved to see Valluvar glorifying or praising Guru-dom in the Kadavul Vaalthu or in the chapter on Neerthaar Perumai or at any other place, at least once, for me to consider the author of the Kural to be a Saivite. Unlike in Tirumandiram, the idea of Guru is conspicuously missing. There is no direct reference to Lord Shiva apart from some of the attributes mentioned in the first chapter which can also be comfortably take to mean other gods and saints!

Having said so, there is no dearth of Saivite interpretation of the Kural! I am not surprised with all these Saivite renderings of the Kural considering the fact that Saiva Siddhanta is the most popular Hindu sect in South India, especially Tamil Nadu.

[haran]

[tscii:7337c60112]“The Mahapurana declares that one should reject all notions of some God creating this world. It questions, " If God created this world, where was He before creation?..and where is he now?..and how can an immaterial God create a material world:?"
It goes on to conclude, " Know that the world is uncreated, as time itself is, without a beginning and without an end... Uncreated and indestructible, it endures under the compulsions of its own nature, divided into three sections- hell, earth and heaven."
“Jainism believes that universe and all its substances or entities are eternal. It has no beginning or end with respect to time. Universe runs own its own accord by its own cosmic laws. All the substances change or modify their forms continuously. Nothing can be destroyed or created in the universe. There is no need of some one to create or manage the affairs of the universe. Hence Jainism does not believe in God as a creator, survivor, and destroyer of the universe.
However Jainism does believe in God, not as a creator, but as a perfect being. When a person destroys all his karmas, he becomes a liberated soul. He resides in a perfect blissful state in Moksha. He possesses infinite knowledge, infinite vision, infinite power, and infinite bliss. This living being is a God of Jain religion.
Every living being has a potential to become God. Hence Jains do not have one God, but Jain Gods are innumerable and their number is continuously increasing as more living beings attain liberation.”
(taken from some web sites)
----------------------------------------------------------------
Idhudhaan jainaththil kadavulin nilai enraal, ‘vEndudhal vendaamai ilaan’, ‘irul sEr iruvinaiyum sEraa iraivan’, ‘thanakkuvamai illaadhaan’, ‘eN gunaththaan’ enru sollap pattulladhan porul enna?
‘eN gunaththaan’ enbadhum, ‘malarmisai yEginaan’ enbadhum muraiyE kadavulin panbaagavum, iruppagavum, saivaththil kuurap pattulladhE.
Sivan enra peyar kuurap padavillaiye enru kEttirundhiirgal. onrukku mErpatta nilaiyileyE, onraip peyarittu adaiyaalap paduththavEndiyulladhu. yEga iraivan enra nilaiyinai oppuk konduvittaal, avanai endhap peyar ittum azaikkalaam; peyar atrum azaikkalaam; avaravargal moziyil, avaravargal purindhu konda vagaiyil.
sandhippOm; sindhippOm.
[/tscii:7337c60112]

[NVK Ashraf]

[tscii:a5d41a5eb7]
Idhudhaan jainaththil kadavulin nilai enraal, ‘vEndudhal vendaamai ilaan’, ‘irul sEr iruvinaiyum sEraa iraivan’, ‘thanakkuvamai illaadhaan’, ‘eN gunaththaan’ enru sollap pattulladhan porul enna?
‘eN gunaththaan’ enbadhum, ‘malarmisai yEginaan’ enbadhum muraiyE kadavulin panbaagavum, iruppagavum, saivaththil kuurap pattulladhE.
Sivan enra peyar kuurap padavillaiye enru kEttirundhiirgal. onrukku mErpatta nilaiyileyE, onraip peyarittu adaiyaalap paduththavEndiyulladhu. yEga iraivan enra nilaiyinai oppuk konduvittaal, avanai endhap peyar ittum azaikkalaam; peyar atrum azaikkalaam; avaravargal moziyil, avaravargal purindhu konda vagaiyil. sandhippOm; sindhippOm. [/tscii:a5d41a5eb7]

Hi Haran,

Thanks for your observations. Yes, Jainas also have their own concept of god, but He is not an authority who has control over others, nor is a bestower of grace and forgiveness like the Semitic, Sikh, Vedic or Persian Creator God.

You have listed some of attributes of god mentioned in "Kadavul vaazhthu" and mentioned that these are applicable to shiva as well. I agree with your observation that Shiva's name need not be mentioned to show that the work is by a Saivite. At the same time, there should not be any attribute contradictory to Shiva.

The first chapter mentions seven attributes of a Deity.

வாலறிவன்
மலர்மிசை ஏகினான்
வேண்டுதல் வேண்டாமை இலான்
பொறிவாயில் ஐந்தவித்தான்
தனக்குவமை இல்லாதான்
அறவாழி அந்தணன்
எண்குணத்தான்

Here I have highlighted the ones mentioned by you in Green. I don't know why you left out the other three, especially பொறிவாயில் ஐந்தவித்தான் and அறவாழி அந்தணன் from the list. If you analyse with a discriminating mind, you will find that these two attributes are contradictory to the nature of any Creator God, be it Shiva, Vishnu, Allah or Jehovah.

In fact I have discussed this issue in detail in my forthcoming article and I also have a table depicting the suitability of these qualities for Jaina, Saiva, Vaishnava godheads (or even to a Saandron = Noble person of stature, as atheists interpret the Kural). The table shows that it is only to a Jaina Deity that all the ten couplets match perfectly.

We will continue ......

[haran]

[tscii:a061fb3b3b]Dear Ashraf,

“Yes, Jainas also have their own concept of god, but He is not an authority who has control over others, nor is a bestower of grace and forgiveness like the Semitic, Sikh, Vedic or Persian Creator God.”

þ¨ÈÅý ¾¡û §º÷ó¾Å÷ìÌ ‘¡ñÎõ þÎõ¨À þÄ’, «Å÷¸û ‘À¢ÈÅ¢ô ¦ÀÕí¸¼ø ¿£óÐÅ÷’ ±ý¦ÈøÄ¡õ ÅûÙÅ÷ ÜÈ¢ÔûÇÐ, §Á§Ä ÌÈ¢ôÀ¢¼ôÀðÎûÇ Â¡÷ §ÁÖõ ±ó¾ ºì¾¢Ôõ þøÄ¡¾ ¸¼×û... ÁýÉ¢ì¸×õ, ¸¼×Ç÷¸û¾¡É¡?

“I don't know why you left out the other three, especially ¦À¡È¢வாயில் ஐந்தவித்தான் and அறவாழி அந்தணன் from the list. If you analyse with a discriminating mind, you will find that these two attributes are contradictory to the nature of any Creator God, be it Shiva, Vishnu, Allah or Jehovah.”

þ¨ÈÅÉ¢ý ̽í¸Ç¢ø º¢Ä ±ý ¸Ê¾ò¾¢ø Å¢¼ôÀð¼Ð ¾ü¦ºÂÄ¡¸ò¾¡ý (¿¢¨É×ìÌ Åó¾ º¢ÄÅü¨È ±Ø¾¢, «Ð §À¡Ðõ ±ýÚ Å¢ðÎÅ¢ð§¼ý).

‘¦À¡È¢Å¡Â¢ø ³ó¾Å¢ò¾¡ý’ ±ýÀÐ ¸¼×Ç¢ý ̽Á¡¸ «íÌ ÜÈôÀ¼Å¢ø¨Ä. ³õ¦À¡È¢¸Ç¢ý ¸ðÎôÀ¡Î¸Ç¢Ä¢ÕóÐ ¾ý¨É ÓØÅÐÁ¡¸ Å¢ÎÅ¢òÐ즸¡ñ¼ ´Õ À쾨Éô ÀüÈ¢§Â ÅûÙÅ÷ ÌÈ¢ôÀ¢ðÎûÇ¡÷. «ôÀÊôÀð¼ Àì¾ý ¦À¡öÂüÈ ´Øì¸ ¦¿È¢Â¢ø Å¡úó¾¡ø, ÁýÁ¢øÄ¡ô ¦ÀÕÅ¡ú× Å¡ÆÓÊÔõ ±ýÚõ «Å÷ «íÌ ÜÈ¢ÔûÇ¡÷.

‘«ÈÅ¡Æ¢ «ó¾½ý’ ±ýÀÐ ‘ «Èõ ±Ûõ ¸¼Ä¢ø Å¡Øõ «Æ¸¢Â ÌÇ¢÷ ¦À¡Õó¾¢ÂÅý ±ýÚ «÷ò¾ôÀΞ¡¸×õ, «Ð ¨ƒÉì ¸¼×Ç÷¸¨Çò ¾Å¢Ã ÁüÈ «¨ÉÅÕìÌõ ¦À¡ÕóО¡¸ò¾¡ý ±ÉìÌô Àθ¢ÈÐ. (À¡ü¸¼Ä¢ø ÀûÇ¢ ¦¸¡ûÙõ Å¢‰Ï¾¡ý ‘«ÈÅ¡Æ¢ «ó¾½ý’ ±É ¨Å½Å÷¸û ¦º¡ýÉ¡Öõ ¬îºÃ¢Âõ þø¨Ä)

Å¡ú쨸 Өȸ¨Çô ÀüÈ¢ ±øÄ¡ Á¾í¸Ùõ ´ý§È §À¡Äò¾¡ý §À͸¢ýÈÉ, þŠÄ¡ò¾¢ø ÒÄ¡ø «ÛÁ¾¢ì¸ôÀ𼨾ò ¾Å¢Ã (Òø âñΠܼ Ó¨Ç측¾ À¡¨Ä Å¡ú Áì¸ÙìÌ §ÅÚ ÅÆ¢ þø¨Ä ±ýÀ¾¡ø). Å½ì¸ Ó¨È ±ýÚ ÅÕõ§À¡§¾ ´ù¦Å¡Õ Á¾Óõ µ¦Ã¡Õ ÅƢ¢¨Éì ¦¸¡ñÎûÇÐ.
«Ð×õ ¸¼×§Ç þø¨Ä ±Ûõ ¨ƒÉÓõ, Òò¾Óõ, ÁüÈ «¨ÉòÐ Á¾í¸Ç¢Ä¢ÕóÐõ ÓüÈ¢Öõ Á¡ÚÀðÎ ¿¢ü¸¢ýÈÉ. þó¾ ¿¢¨Ä¢ø ÅûÙŨà ±ôÀÊ ¨ƒÉ ¬¾ÃÅ¡Ç÷ ±ýÚ ÜÈÓÊÔõ ±ýÀ§¾ ±ÉÐ §¸ûÅ¢.

«ýÒ¼ý,
†Ãý.
[/tscii:a061fb3b3b]

[NVK Ashraf]

[tscii:94e3e6acb2] þ¨ÈÅý ¾¡û §º÷ó¾Å÷ìÌ ‘¡ñÎõ þÎõ¨À þÄ’, «Å÷¸û ‘À¢ÈÅ¢ô ¦ÀÕí¸¼ø ¿£óÐÅ÷’ ±ý¦ÈøÄ¡õ ÅûÙÅ÷ ÜÈ¢ÔûÇÐ, §Á§Ä ÌÈ¢ôÀ¢¼ôÀðÎûÇ Â¡÷ §ÁÖõ ±ó¾ ºì¾¢Ôõ þøÄ¡¾ ¸¼×û... ÁýÉ¢ì¸×õ, ¸¼×Ç÷¸û¾¡É¡?
[/tscii:94e3e6acb2]

What I had stated about the concept of god in Jainism is as per the Jaina beliefs and what you have pointed out above is also correct. Well, there is an apparent contradiction here. Your question is how come a Jaina god be invoked for saving oneself from troubles and getting release from birth.

As you may be aware, in all religions there is invariably certain discrepancy between their principal teachings on one hand and what some of their scriptures (or agamas, in the case of Jains) say. Both Buddhism and Jainism began with emphasize on achieving moksha purely by one's own effort (that's why Jains were called shramanas, the strivers), but soon developed a tendency to invoke upon their founders and sages (Tirthankaras, Siddhas and Acharyas in the case of Jainism) for blessings and help. In Islam, for instance, though any intermediatory is prohibited (including prophet himself), we saw the development of Sufism and Sufi masters were called Awliyas (Friends of God).

Not only in Kural, but it is also not uncommon to find similar invocatory verses of such type in Jaina scritpures and writings. Given below is such an invocations from Chatur_Vinshati Stava (Logassa Sutra) which I managed to get from the net:
http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~malaiya/logassa.html

kittiya-vandiya-maye, je ae logassa uttamaa siddhaa |
aarogga-bohilabham, samaahivaram_uttamam dintu ||

Those who I praise and worship,
noble Siddhas in the world,
freedom from disease, possession of wisdom
give me the noble blessing of Samadhi.

In our attempt to narrow down the faith of Valluvar, we will definitely come across discrepancies like this. We have to make an overall assessment and come to a conclusion. The most predominant ideas in Tirukkural are of Jaina origin. In fact substantially more than all other faiths put together.

Now coming to பொறிவாயில் ஐந்தவித்தான் and அறவாழி அந்தணன். I am glad to know that you also realize that பொறிவாயில் ஐந்தவித்தான் cannot be an attribute of a Creator God. On the contrary, most of the translators take it as a reference to God.

With regard to அறவாழி அந்தணன், I have a problem only with the word "அந்தணன்" which may either refer to a Sage, Ascetic, or Saintly personality. You mentioned about Vishnu, but the word அந்தணன் has been used in many Tamil religious texts. If we take அறவாழி as "Sea of Virtue", it is applicable to God as well humans who have attained Godhood. If interpreted as "Wheel of Virtue", then it narrows down to Aruhan or Buddha. I know Lord Vishnu also has his "Vishnu Chakra" but my point whether He can be அந்தணன் as well!

[devapriya]

[tscii:ac5de824d4]Friends,

Let us Thank Shri. NVK Ashraf for his
//Dating of Tirrukkural: Like most literary works in India, dating of Kural has also been inconclusive. We can only speculate and no one can provide us a period and get away without any criticism. Must have been written any time between the 1st century AD to 6th Century AD. //
Ashrafji, Missionaries like G..U.Pope Dated Kural to 10th Cen, so that he can trace some Christian influence into it, and Caldwell dated Sangam to 9th Cen.
Thanks to Shri.Vaiyapuri Pillai, and others Scientific dating started. Sangam is now dated to 250BCE- 200 CE, and were Edited to present form close to 250-275CE.
Thirukural belongs to the end of this Period, as many smaller Sangam Poets has sung Thiruvalluvamalai. Linguistically Many deviations in Silapathikaram and Manimekhalai are absent in Kural and also Manimekhalai clearly refers Kural and Valluvar. Moreover from Longer Songs of Asiriappa and True to Life Songs in Sangam – More Discipline Oriented smallers Venpas form in PathinenKilkanakku and Kural is one of it. So appropriate dating for Kural could be 250-300 CE, i.e., 200 years later than Tholkappiyam dated to 50-100CE.

I quote Ashrafji-
// Next is the religion of Valluvar: So much has been talked about and written. The only widely accepted "NOTION" is that he must have been an "unorthodox" Hindu. However, Jaina claims are the most valid. I have been studying the Kural since 2000 and the more I dwell into it, the more I realize that the work is based on Jaina ideals and the names/attributes of God(s) Valluvar refer to in Chapter 1 are more apt to describe Jaina deities than that of any other faith.//
Ashrafji, again I feel most of us should CONCENTRATE on the Ist Athikaram’s last Kural - we have :
10. À¢ÈÅ¢ô ¦ÀÕí¸¼ø ¿£óÐÅ÷ ¿£ó¾¡÷
þ¨ÈÅý «Ê§ºÃ¡ ¾¡÷.
Jainism is purely Agnostic even at many times close to Atheistic; Only your Actions could save you. This One Kural certainly makes that Valluvar was following Jainistic Ethos.
want lot more meaningful Discussion. Please enlighten us. Please, and link us to Your Website, and your idea has put me to have my own Website giving the Tamil Sangam and its background.

Let us all take this Opportunity to Salute the Greatest of Tamil Thondar Tamil Periyar and Tamil PerArignanar U.VE.Swaminathiar- if One were to Single out One Personality to have no Parellel for his Tamil works in 20th Cen, it would be U.Ve.Sa.
Bismala Great U.Ve.Saji also have given many Kural meaning references and said Kural is based on Veda, why do you not accept them? U.Ve.Sa’s Datings are subjective without much Scientifice basis of early 40s, and Pavanar and Maraimalai aadigal dates are totally rejeced for same reason. But U.Ve.Saji interpreted that Valluvar wrote Kural to preach Vedas which is Scientific.

Please do not take Authors to Couch your Falsehoods Bismalaji.
Devapriya
[/tscii:ac5de824d4]

[NVK Ashraf]

[tscii:35ddb2a8ac]
Ashrafji, again I feel most of us should CONCENTRATE on the Ist Athikaram’s last Kural - we have :
10. À¢ÈÅ¢ô ¦ÀÕí¸¼ø ¿£óÐÅ÷ ¿£ó¾¡÷
þ¨ÈÅý «Ê§ºÃ¡ ¾¡÷.

Jainism is purely Agnostic even at many times close to Atheistic; Only your Actions could save you. This One Kural certainly makes that Valluvar was following Jainistic Ethos. want lot more meaningful Discussion. Please enlighten us. Please, and link us to Your Website, and your idea has put me to have my own Website giving the Tamil Sangam and its background.
[/tscii:35ddb2a8ac]
The last couplet when translated goes like this:
The ocean of births can be crossed by none other than
Those who reach the feet of the Lord. * (PS Sundaram, modified)

This being the meaning, I am surprising with your observation that it this couplet shows Valluvar's Jaina ethos more than the others. If fact this verse is a general one and can be applied to all dieties, be it Saiva, Vaishnava, Buddhist or Jaina.

I would say the following couplets have a special Jaina import than the rest:

Couplet 3:
Long life on earth is theirs who reach
The glorious feet of Him who walked on flowers. (PS Sundarama, VVS)

Couplet 6:
Long life is theirs who tread the path of Him
Who conquered the five senses. (PS Sundaram)

Couplet 1:
With alpha begins all alphabets;
And the world with the first Bagavan. (KN, SI)

Having said so, the first two could be comfortably be used for Lord Buddha himself and the last one (couple 1) for any deity. However, if you analyse carefully, all these three couplets perfectly match the requirements of a Jaina Tirthankara or Siddha. I don't want to mention here in detail how. Please wait for one more week and I will provide you the link once I complet the article which unfortunately runs down to 15 to 20 pages.

[devapriya]

Dear Ashraffji,

I HAVE discussed on the Historical Dating of Valluvar, as for your interpretation of Kural 10, I SHALL reply them in my next post.

As for as A Religion which is basically Agnostic to Athesitic, to say holding on to God's Feat is totally against it.

But let me put forth with Commentators in my next post.

Devapriya.

[nms]

DearAshraf/Sudhaama,
I feel that the discussion about the religion of "Thiruvalluvar" is not important.
Gnanigal samayangalai thurandhuvidugiraargalh.Samayangalh thaan avargalai thurappadhillai.
Valluvar oru thalai sirandha gnani - avar emmadhathai saarndhavaraaga irundhaal enna?adhai therindhu kholcathaal payan aedhaenum vunda??
enakku therindhu illai.kuralhai pinpattrinaal podhumae enru thonugiradhu - idhu sariyaa enru theriyavillai.vilakkavum.

[NVK Ashraf]

Dear NMS,

Your remarks remind me very much of an email I received from K. Arasu three months back. This is what he wrote when I mentioned to him that I am doing a research on the claims of Valluvar being a Jain.

Dear Ashraf

I am not religious fanatic. You said that Valluvan's religious background has not been established. Do you want to establish or any one interested to establish? Why distract from what Valluvan said for the world? If any of his words are appealing and worth following, let us follow it. Making research on his religious background is waste of time and waste of arguement. Infact Jesus family is from Jew background, who cares who is what and why? Avoid giving any personal attachment to anybody. Our body goes to the ground, but not good deeds and service we have given to mankind. Cheers, no more on Valluvan's ethenic background. Read and read again Valluvan's words and nothing else. Take care and cheers.

-arasu

But the fact of the matter is we do not know anything about the author of Kural as much as we know about his work. That is why President Kalam specifically requested scholars to focus their Kural studies on Tiruvalluvar the person. Lot has been done and spoken about Kural, the Book and little has been mentioned about Valluvar, the author.

I am not trying to put Valluvar into the fold of any religion. Valluvar's message is loud and clear. It is for all the world. After all, like you and me, he must have been also born into some religion. Or at least he must have been influenced by some religious philosophy. But his composition is non-sectarian or at least that is how he wanted his work to be known. But I am afraid, he has failed to keep religious inclination unknown, especially when he wrote the first chapter.

[Sudhaama]

Dear NMS,

Your remarks remind me very much of an email I received from K. Arasu three months back. This is what he wrote when I mentioned to him that I am doing a research on the claims of Valluvar being a Jain.

Dear Ashraf

I am not religious fanatic. You said that Valluvan's religious background has not been established. Do you want to establish or any one interested to establish? Why distract from what Valluvan said for the world? If any of his words are appealing and worth following, let us follow it. Making research on his religious background is waste of time and waste of arguement. Infact Jesus family is from Jew background, who cares who is what and why? Avoid giving any personal attachment to anybody. Our body goes to the ground, but not good deeds and service we have given to mankind. Cheers, no more on Valluvan's ethenic background. Read and read again Valluvan's words and nothing else. Take care and cheers.

-arasu

But the fact of the matter is we do not know anything about the author of Kural as much as we know about his work. That is why President Kalam specifically requested scholars to focus their Kural studies on Tiruvalluvar the person. Lot has been done and spoken about Kural, the Book and little has been mentioned about Valluvar, the author.

I am not trying to put Valluvar into the fold of any religion. Valluvar's message is loud and clear. It is for all the world. After all, like you and me, he must have been also born into some religion. Or at least he must have been influenced by some religious philosophy. But his composition is non-sectarian or at least that is how he wanted his work to be known. But I am afraid, he has failed to keep religious inclination unknown, especially when he wrote the first chapter.

Dear Mr. Ashraf,

I agree Cent per cent on the words and spirit of Mr. Arasu. He has placed the INTELLECTUAL POINTS... quite laudably. My Hats off to him.

And I am surprised to see your funny defence on your side, justifying to PROCEED ON THE RELIGIOUS LEANING of the Person Thiruvalluvar.

My dear friend... I am asking you ..WHY?... What benefit of improved knowledge we are going to derive from his PRIVATE BACKGROUND.?

May be he was... a Jain, or Budhist or a Hindu... or of NO RELIGIOUS LEANING at all....What does it matter to us.?

Have we taken similar interests on Kamban or Ilango Adihalh or the like.?

Should we break our heads and conduct a Research and PUBLICISE such an UNINMPORTANT and UNHEALTHY interest, for the posterity.

But well... instead, if you are interested to analyse the RELIGIOUS SENSE only... behind Thirukkuralh...

...either of Jainism, or Budhism or Hinduism or any other Religion... in Totality or of Mosaic pattern... Welcome.

In brief... let us proceed to analyse the THIRUKKURALH Text in any angle of your outlook.... by INTELLECTUAL VALUES.

..but NOT ON THE PERSONAL FAITH OF THE AUTHOR.... which is his Private affair...

.....ThiruValhlhuvar... is the ETERNAL.. the Great Man of Humanity..!!!

[NVK Ashraf]

My dear friend... I am asking you ..WHY?... What benefit of improved knowledge we are going to derive from his PRIVATE BACKGROUND.?
May be he was... a Jain, or Budhist or a Hindu... or of NO RELIGIOUS LEANING at all....What does it matter to us.?
Have we taken similar interests on Kamban or Ilango Adihalh or the like.?
Dear Sudhaama,

I am surprise to see this remark coming from you! Not until last week, you were of the firm view that Valluvar was an uncoventional Hindu. This is what you had written:

When I said the only widely accepted "NOTION" is that Valluvar must have been an "unorthodox" Hindu, you said "it is NOT A NOTION".

When I said that the work is based on Jaina ideals and the names/attributes of God(s) Valluvar refer to in Chapter 1 are more apt to describe Jaina deities than that of any other faith, you replied......"No. Scholars say that this is the very chapter-I which is leading us more towards the concept of Vedic-faith than other faiths"

The point I want to emphasize is that there is a tendency on the part of the majority Hindus to either insist that Valluvar was an unorthodox revolutionary Hindu or criticise those who try to establish religious basis of Valluvar's non-sectarian work, especially when evidences are produced contrary to their liking. For instance, in spite making his opinions very clear, Mr. K. Arasu, had nothing to reply when I wrote him back saying:
Dear Arasu,

Thanks for your observations. I realise that your reaction comes from the mistaken belief that I am also one amongst those who waste precious time in trying to find out Valluvar's religious background. Even those who tried to establish or tried to prove that Valluvar was a Hindu or Jain or Christian, always appreciated Valluvar's catholicity and never tried to brand Valluvar's work as something meant for Jains or Hindus alone.

We don't have any biographical material to establish his religious background and the only we have is his work, the Kural. From the Kural, we can only show some pointers to the ideas or ideals that attracted Valluvar the most while composing his couplets. I am convinced that the Kural contains more of Jaina ideas than any other system that prevailed during his time. This does not necessarily mean Valluvar was a Jaina. This is not a wishful statement I make without doing any reseach. We can discuss on this, if you disagree with my observation. .....

Regards
Ashraf

You mentioned about Kambar and Ilango. Everyone knows Cilappadikaram is a Jaina work and Kambar's Ramayana is a Hindu epic. What special effort is required to prove their religious background or inclination?

I repeat what I said before. My intention is not to confine Valluvar within the fold of any religion. Anyone who says Valluvar is a Hindu should equally be criticised as the one who claims Valluvar to be a Jain! There is a tendency to take what the majority believe in as the truth. I am afraid it is not the right method.

[Sudhaama]

...When I said that the work is based on Jaina ideals and the names/attributes of God(s) Valluvar refer to in Chapter 1 are more apt to describe Jaina deities than that of any other faith,

..you replied......"No... Scholars say that this is the very chapter-I which is leading us more towards the concept of Vedic-faith than other faiths"

.. Even those who tried to establish or tried to prove that Valluvar was a Hindu or Jain or Christian, always appreciated Valluvar's catholicity and never tried to brand Valluvar's work as something meant for Jains or Hindus alone.

... From the Kural, we can only show some pointers to the ideas or ideals that attracted Valluvar the most while composing his couplets.

I am convinced that the Kural contains more of Jaina ideas than any other system that prevailed during his time. This does not necessarily mean Valluvar was a Jaina. This is not a wishful statement I make without doing any reseach. We can discuss on this, if you disagree with my observation. .....

Regards
Ashraf

I repeat what I said before. My intention is not to confine Valluvar within the fold of any religion. Anyone who says Valluvar is a Hindu should equally be criticised as the one who claims Valluvar to be a Jain! There is a tendency to take what the majority believe in as the truth. I am afraid it is not the right method.[/color]

Dear Mr Ashraf,

I clarify .. that I have never indulged in analysing the PERSONAL RELIGIOUS FAITH of the Author, Valhlhuvar... but if any of my words inadvertently implied such a sense, ...

..then I affirm that my words were meant only on his Work Thirukkuralh.. nothing beyond... on the Authors Personal Faith.

I reiterate that according to Parimael-azhahar... which has been generally accepted by the Tamil-Scholars, since a long time.. as authentic...

"Thirukkuralh...is NO DOUBT ... A PODHU-MARHAI... of Catholicity... coupled with Sectarian approach of broad outlook..

...A Non-Religious.. Scripture of Moral Values... on EARTHLY LIFE mostly..

..an INVALUABLE MESSAGE towards the Advancement and Emancipation of Global Mankind.

But most of its Wordings and Sense... convey the semblance with the

..Large-hearted SECTARIAN parts of Vedic Religion, so called Hinduism.

I am anxious to hear from you... how and where you differ with me.

...Yes. Please proceed on Your Jainic thinking.
.

[FloraiPuyal]

Thirukkural doesnt reflect any religion in specific. It was meant to be free from religions and Thiruvalluvar achieved it.

Thiruvalluvar is clearly a saivaite. Most of the sangam poets were saivaites and Thiruvalluvar was no exception to this. Please read his other works and you will find he is a saivaite. :)







யாகாவா ராயினு னாகாக்க

[NVK Ashraf]

[tscii:6dd5be6019]Dear Sudhaama,

You said:
“I reiterate that according to Parimael-azhahar... which has been generally accepted by the Tamil-Scholars, since a long time.. as authentic….”

Once again, we are misled by tradition and by what the majority have agreed to trust upon. All other commentaries have taken a back seat because of the recognition given to Parimel. Hope you are aware that many consider Manakkudavar’s commentary (being the oldest surviving one) to be more simple and close to the original. Zvelebil (1975) refers to a Kanchi inscription which mentions about many Jaina commentators of Kural that have been lost.

You also said:
"Thirukkuralh...is NO DOUBT ... A PODHU-MARHAI... of Catholicity... coupled with Sectarian approach of broad outlook.. ... A Non-Religious.. Scripture of Moral Values... on EARTHLY LIFE mostly....an INVALUABLE MESSAGE towards the Advancement and Emancipation of Global Mankind".

Of course yes. Even a Jain has no authority to call Kural as his scripture. In fact it is not a scripture at all!

And your third comment:
But most of its Wordings and Sense... convey the semblance with the ..Large-hearted SECTARIAN parts of Vedic Religion, so called Hinduism. I am anxious to hear from you... how and where you differ with me.

This where I beg to differ. Valluvar’s work is based on Jaina principles of ethics and his Invocation to god is more applicable to a Jaina deity than a Vedic one. Let me first complete that article and then we can take it from there. No point in posting all the details here. I will provide the link once it is done.

Thanks for patience.
[/tscii:6dd5be6019]

[NVK Ashraf]

Dear Mr. Puyal,


Thirukkural doesnt reflect any religion in specific. It was meant to be free from religions and Thiruvalluvar achieved it.

Yes, it is free from religious and philosophical dictums of the kind you will find in works like Tirumandiram, Thevaram or Nalatiyar. Yes, it was also meant to be a non-sectarian one and Valluvar has managed to do it. However, his religious inclination is clearly evident in the foundation of his work and the Involcation of the Deity he preferred.


Thiruvalluvar is clearly a saivaite. Most of the sangam poets were saivaites and Thiruvalluvar was no exception to this. Please read his other works and you will find he is a saivaite. :)
யாகாவா ராயினு னாகாக்க

I am surprised with your observations. First of all the Kural is not is accepted by the majority as a Sangam work but as a work that appeared during the post Sangam age of "Ethical period". I am keen to know how you call him a Saivite. Perhaps you can go through my article (I will be uploading that soon) and comment on my reasoning why I consider Valluvar's work is based on Jaina ideas.

[pamrang]

Thirukkural doesnt reflect any religion in specific. It was meant to be free from religions and Thiruvalluvar achieved it.

Thiruvalluvar is clearly a saivaite. Most of the sangam poets were saivaites and Thiruvalluvar was no exception to this. Please read his other works and you will find he is a saivaite. :)

I thought that Kural was Valluvar's only work - am surprised to hear that there might be more. Could you please list out the others?

[devapriya]

Friends,

Tiruvalluvar Believed in Superior God, from whom the world stated, is his Frist Kural.

Jainism was founded by Bagawan Mahavir a Prophet. and the Jainistic Mythology has him as 24th Prophet and Rishabadevar a, human born as first Prophet.

This would go against first Kural, unless we interpret othrway.

We need to understand Kural dating and analyse them.

As we analyse kural, we also know more of Valluvam.

Belief in God is a Taboo to Samanam.

Devapriya

[NVK Ashraf]

Devapriya,

I totally screwed up my reply. Instead of replying within this thread, I posted my reply as a new topic!!! "Belief in God in Jainism!"

Sorry for the mistake. Don't know what to do! Should we continue here itself?

எண்ணித்துணிக கருமம் துணிந்தபின்
எண்ணுவம் என்பது இழுக்கு......!!!

[Sudhaama]

Devapriya,

I totally screwed up my reply. Instead of replying within this thread, I posted my reply as a new topic!!! "Belief in God in Jainism!"

Sorry for the mistake. Don't know what to do! Should we continue here itself?

எண்ணித்துணிக கருமம் துணிந்தபின்
எண்ணுவம் என்பது இழுக்கு......!!!

Dear ashraf,

If you want to express on God-faith only.... pertaining to Jainism...

...Well please go ahead with different postings based on various Literatures, History, Archeology etc... as you may need to counter the other side..

... in that new Thread you have now initiated.

But since you have taken up ANOTHER POINT OF JAINIC SENSE. in Thirukkuralh...

Please continue your Thoughts and Conclusions here enabling us to discuss on the subject... exclusively on Thirukkuralh...

...within the same Thread where the topic was opened.

[NVK Ashraf]

[tscii:f8bea13c18]Dear Sudhaama,

Thanks for the suggestion. At the moment I am not interested in diverting my focus on Deitification in Jainism. Let that thread which I created accidentally remain as such.

I am copy pasting below the reply to Devapriya:

Hi Devapriya,

Two of your points need a response from my side:

You said: (i) Tiruvalluvar Believed in Superior God, from whom the world stated, is his Frist Kural.

The firs Kural says: "ஆதி பகவன் முதற்றே உலகு". Please notice there are two "firsts" in this. ஆதி and முதற்றே. ஆதி means not Superior or Great, but First, Initial or sometimes referred also as Primordial. The next word is also means First, Beginning, Start etc. Now the question is why should Valluvar mention "First" twice? First God and First in the world. Is there any first God in Vedic Hinduism?

Well, statements like "God is the Beginning and End" is found all religious texts, both Vedic and Semitic:

Gita, 10:20
अहमादिश्च मध्यं च भूतानामन्त एवच
I am the Beginning, the Middle and also the End of all beings
Qur'an, 57:3
هُوَ الْأَوَّلُ وَالْآخِرُ
He is the First and the Last
Revelation, 1:8
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End
Isaiah, 48:12
אֲנִי רִאשׁוֹן וַאֲנִי אַחֲרוֹן
I am the First and I am also the Last
Tirumandiram, 1570
ஆதிக்கண் தெய்வமும் அந்தமுமாமே
God is the Beginning and End of all.

All these references are about a Creator God. We have to ask the question why Valluvar didn't speak about the End? The fact that the couplet talks about two "firsts or beginnings" and the fact that Valluvar didn't say anything about the "End or Last" shows he was not talking about a Creator God who is often projected as the "Beginning and the End" but a god or deity who is adored as the first. This suits perfectly to the Jain Adi Bagavan who was the first of the Tirthankaras. Many Tamil Jaina texts refer to Adi Bagavan. Venkataramaiyah (2001) writes how Mandala Purudar mentions Ādi Bagavan as "எண் எழுத்திரண்டும் பரப்பிய ஆதிமூர்த்தி" in section four of his Nigañdu work. He also quotes this from Kayādara Nigañdu:

கோதிலருகன் திகம்பரன் எண்குணன் முக்குடையோன்,
ஆதிபகவன் அசோகமர்ந்தோன் அறவாழி அண்ணல்

This verse has nearly half of the attributes mentioned in the first chapter of Tirukkural. Being a work that appeared after Tirukkural, the author has obviously styled his composition based on Tirukkural. He might have used these attributes in his work realizing that they all suit well to describe the Jaina deity.

You also said: (ii) "Belief in God is a Taboo to Samanam. "

Please stand corrected. Belief in a Creator god is a taboo in Sramanam.

Reference:
Venkataramaiah, K.M. 2001. திருக்குறளும் சமண சமயமும். In: வள்ளுவம்: Valluvam. Editors: Palladam Manickam and E. Sundaramurthy. திருக்குறள் பண்பாட்டு ஆய்வு மையம், விருத்தாச்சலம். Tiruvalluvar Year 2032. Issue No. 14. Pp 14-24.[/tscii:f8bea13c18]

[devapriya]

[tscii:c8db51c82b]Dear Friends,

I Sincerely want to Appreciate Shri.NVK.A’ Single Minded Pursuit in Spereading Tirukural especially the Translations to Other Language People. Real Hard Work.

NVKji, I am indeed really happy to see your wide range of quotations which shows the depth of your research. Thiruvalluvar letus say lived in Second Half of 3rd Cen. And wrote Kurals. Though ParimelAzagar is more Popular Commentator, the Oldest Manakkudavar which is Highly Partial towards Jainism has affected ParimelAzagar also.
Now to depend on any one Commentator, will be a Problem.

The most Important Question is Whether in His First Chapter all 10 Kurals refer The Ultimate God or a Prophet only. This question would Solve all the doubts, further Entire 1330 Kurals are equally important, to analyse Valluvar’s Religious beliefs.
"ஆதி பகவன் முதற்றே உலகு". Both the words are burrowed from Sanskrit. Aathi means First, No Doubt-But Chief Minister is Muthal Amaichar and Straight from Sanskrit- Prathan Manthri- or its English absorbed Prime Minister – ALL LEADS TO CHIEF OR SUPREME. Even on Your interpretion FROM IST GOD IS THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD.

Now the Mythologic – RishabaDevar of JAINISM is Son of Couples lived in Ayodya- Father Nabiraja and Mother Marudevi, Who after Meditation gave lot of Guidances for Good Civilisation then attained Moksha. World does not start from Rishaba Deva, He was only a Prophet.

As for as the Usage of word பகவன், the best way is to look Practically. We all know What the Words- VETHAM OF SANSKRIT and MARAI of TAMIL refers, from Tholkappiyam they refer to Rig, Yajur, Sama and Atharva. Even Sama Vetha is named in Paripadal. The word MARAI- a beautiful word, not even available in Sanskrit- Veda is from Sanskrit root Vidya- knowledge, even though at quiet few places in Vedas refer to putting it in Writing, after Panini making Grammer in 5th Cen.-BCE, as Vedas required different breaking and methods, then on it was given by word to mouth and called SRUTHI- means to be Heard, Marai- in tamil means not revealed (in writing) and also the Theological benefits of Chanting are not direct. The Word Veda and Marai specifically from Proper Words. But Both Islam and Christians in their Religious institutions and Speeches refer Quran and Bible by the Words- Veda and Marai. So quoting later day Jainistic books using the terms used by Valluvar is only Copying.

பகவனே ஈசன் மாயோன் பங்கயன் ஜினனே புத்தன் - Sudaamani Nikandu

Now just leaving out all Indian Commentators for a Minute, G.U.Poe- “The Eternal Adorable One” Now look AT F.W.ELLIS, G.U.POPE , AND ALSO C.J.BESCHI ALL OF THEM SAY THAT KURAL’S FIRST CHAPTER REFERS TO THE CREATOR GOD ONLY.

Take 20th Century- Thiru.Vi.Ka. or Appadurai- they go further to the Upanishadic Advaita- God Created the World and he is part of it, is put in for the Commentary of them.

Vedic Theology is Certainly is of One Supreme God and His equal Presence in other Farms. No Relgion in World says One Superior God alone. Maxmuller who was Commissioned to misinterpret Vedas as Polytheistic after Father Adams of Anglican Church Quit Christianity and joined Brahmo Samaj reasoned that Bible is Polytheistic and Vedas are Monotheistic; Maxmuller coined a New Word Henotheism, which means Accept One Superior God, at the same time Acknowledge presence of Other Gods.

I want to go into each and every Kural of this chapter and all Kurals totally to answer that Certainly Valluvar cannot be JAIN.

Devapriya.

[/tscii:c8db51c82b]

[NVK Ashraf]

[tscii:bc492bfb53]Dear Devapriya,

Thanks for all your appreciation about my efforts to promote the Kural in different languages. As you said, it is not an easy task. First I thought the difficulty will be in getting the books but this seems to be relatively easier. The task is getting them typed in an unicode format.

I am brooding with translations in Telugu, Bengali, Oriya, Chinese, Japanese, Gujarati and Urdu, unable to find suitable volunteers to convert them to soft copies.

Any effort of this type needs some "madness" and I have plenty of them. And one has to be persistent with the task and as Valluvar said, not once but on two occasions!

Kural 540
உள்ளியது எய்தல் எளிதுமன் மற்றுந்தான்
உள்ளியது உள்ளப் பெறின்.
“What is aimed is easy to achieve, if only the mind is set on what is aimed” – NV

Kural 666
எண்ணிய எண்ணியாங்கு எய்துப எண்ணியார்
திண்ணியர் ஆகப் பெறின்.
“What is sought will be got as desired if only the seeker is determined” - NV

Now let me come to the subject we are discussing. Before I comment your observations on the first couplet, a quick response to the following statement you made. You said:

"Vedic Theology is Certainly is of One Supreme God and His equal Presence in other Farms. No Relgion in World says One Superior God alone. Maxmuller who was Commissioned to misinterpret Vedas as Polytheistic after Father Adams of Anglican Church Quit Christianity and joined Brahmo Samaj reasoned that Bible is Polytheistic and Vedas are Monotheistic; Maxmuller coined a New Word Henotheism, which means Accept One Superior God, at the same time Acknowledge presence of Other Gods."

The very fact that Vedic religion says there is a Superior God, goes on to show there are inferior gods as well! Forget about why MaxMuller was commissioned, but the word he coined "Henotheism" is correct. It is only because in Hinduism the presence of other gods is accepted that one particular god had to be considered the Supreme. Monotheism is a word coined by the West and let us not be mislead to believe that is the best and correct. Judaic monotheism is based on a belief in a God with the exclusion of all other gods (relevant text to read is Karen Amstrong's History of God) and Vedic 'monotheism' is the belief in a Superior god with the inclusion of all other gods.

Says the Gita:
9:23 Those who are devotees of other gods and who worship them with faith actually worship only Me, O son of Kunti, but they do so in a wrong way.

7:22 Endowed with such a faith, he seeks favors of a particular demigod and obtains his desires. But in actuality these benefits are bestowed by Me alone.

Unlike in Semitic faiths, workship of other gods or demigods is not strictly forbidden. Presence of other gods are recognized and that is why we have this concept of "Ishta Devatha" in Hinduism. But a Muslim, Christian or Jew cannot even think of the concept of Ishta Devata. However, many Muslims do seek help through "intermediaries" which is actually forbidden in Islam. And also Catholic Christians who venerate Saints and others.

Moreover, in Hindu texts, usually don't see statements like this "There is no god except Shiva" or for that matter "There is no god except Vishnu" and so forth. You will invariably come across verses like "There is no god like Shiva", "None comparable to Him" and so forth.
[/tscii:bc492bfb53]

I will get back to you on the Kural soon.

Regards.

[haran]

[tscii:744bfcdaf6]Why did God create this world or this universe? Only he can be called God who is omniscient, omnipotent, and who is devoid of desires, and passions. (GUIDLINES OF JAINISM - www.jainworld.com)
§Åñξø §Åñ¼¡¨Á þÄ¡ý «Ê §º÷ó¾¡÷ìÌ
¡ñÎõ þÎõ¨À þÄ.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Creation and destruction; production and disposal are always going on. Behind this eternal process there does not exist anyone's planning or organization. The whole universe is a self-regulated one. But in this organization, Karma plays an important role. In this process the effect of Karma is emphatically evident. (GUIDLINES OF JAINISM - www.jainworld.com)
°Æ¢ü ¦ÀÕÅÄ¢ ¡×Ç Áü¦È¡ýÚ
ÝÆ¢Ûõ ¾¡ý ÓóÐÕõ.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
When a person destroys all his karmas, he becomes a liberated soul. He resides in a perfect blissful state in Moksha. He possesses infinite knowledge, infinite vision, infinite power, and infinite bliss. This living being is a God of Jain religion.
Every living being has a potential to become God. Hence Jains do not have one God, but Jain Gods are innumerable and their number is continuously increasing as more living beings attain liberation.
Å¡ÄÈ¢Åý, ÁÄ÷Á¢¨º ²¸¢É¡ý, ±ñ̽ò¾¡ý, §Åñξø §Åñ¼¡¨Á þÄ¡ý, þ¨ÈÅý, ±É ´Õ¨Á¢ø ÌÈ¢ôÀ¢¼ôÀðÎûÇ ¸¼×û¾¡ý §Á§Ä ÜÈôÀðÎûÇ innumerable and continuously increasing ¸¼×û¸Ç¡?
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
¿ñÀ÷ «‰Ãô Å¢ÇìÌÅ¡÷ ±ýÈ ¿õÀ¢ì¨¸Ô¼ý,
†Ãý.
À¢.Ì: ÅûÙÅâý ÌÈû ÅÆ¢ Å¡ú¸¢§È¡Á¡ ±ýÈ ¬Ã¡ö¢Öõ, «ôÀÊ Å¡úž¢ÖûÇ, þý¨È ¿¨¼Ó¨È º¢ì¸ø¸¨Ç Ţš¾¢ôÀ¾¢Öõ ¿õ §¿Ãò¨¾ ¦ºÄŢξø, «ÅÕìÌ ¸¡Å¢, ¦Åû¨Ç, À ºð¨¼ «½¢Å¢òÐ ‘«ÆÌ’ À¡÷ôÀ¨¾ Å¢¼ Á¢Ìó¾ ÀÂÛûǾ¡¸ þÕìÌõ ±ýÚ §¾¡ýÚ¸¢ÈÐ.
[/tscii:744bfcdaf6]

[NVK Ashraf]

[tscii:a1e8d9d525]Dear Devapriya,

You said:
Though ParimelAzagar is more Popular Commentator, the Oldest Manakkudavar which is Highly Partial towards Jainism has affected ParimelAzagar also. Now to depend on any one Commentator, will be a Problem.

It is news to me that Manakkudavar has been highly partial towards Jainism! For all I have heard is that Parimel, being a Vaishnavite, has given the Kural a “Theistic” cannotation. If you are under the impression that my observations are depended on Manakkudavar’s, then please stand corrected. Only recently I managed to procure a comparative commentary of the 5 well known commentators. Moreover, if you look at Manakkudavar’s commentary, it is brief and to the point unlike Parimel’s.

You wrote:
The most Important Question is Whether in His First Chapter all 10 Kurals refer The Ultimate God or a Prophet only. This question would Solve all the doubts, further Entire 1330 Kurals are equally important, to analyse Valluvar’s Religious beliefs.

I absolutely agree that an analysis of the entire Kural is essential to decide on the deity or deities Valluvar is praising in chapter 1.

You also wrote:
"ஆதி பகவன் முதற்றே உலகு". Both the words are burrowed from Sanskrit. Aathi means First, No Doubt-But Chief Minister is Muthal Amaichar and Straight from Sanskrit- Prathan Manthri- or its English absorbed Prime Minister – ALL LEADS TO CHIEF OR SUPREME. Even on Your interpretion FROM IST GOD IS THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD.

Standing on its own, the phrase 'Adi Bagavan' can be translated both as 'First Bagavan' the Jaina way or as Primordial God, the Hindu way. The question is whether the word "ஆதி பகவன்" refers to the first Jaina Tirthankarā Adi Bhagvan, or the Primal God as most translators interpret. Why did Valluvar use the words like "இறைவன், தெய்வம்" in other parts of the work, but opted for this twin words he never used any other place in his work? Is it because 'பகவன்' is an apt rhyming word for 'அகரம்'? We cannot take it this way because any writer mentions the “பொருள்” first and then looks for the “உவமை” later. The “பொருள்” here is “ஆதி பகவன்” and “உவமை” is “அகரம்”. So he selects the phrase Adi Bagavan first and then looks for simile. Therefore he has deliberately chosen this phrase in spite of many other options like இறைவன், தெய்வம் etc. And that too a word of Sanskrit origin (as you said) in the very couplet of a work that contains very few words of Sanskrit import?!!! There are many places in the Kural where Valluvar seem to have employed words of Sanskrit import for rhyming reasons. One good example is தாம்வீழ்வார் and தாமரைக்கண்ணான் in couplet 1103.

Your example of “Muthal amaichar” is all fine but then why did Valluvar use “ஆதி” here? He could have said “முதல் பகவன்”. Of particular interest to mention here are the terms "ஆதி முதல்வன்" in Mañimékalai and the word “ஆதி பிரான்” in Tirumandiram. How will you translate ஆதி முதல்வன்? First Chief or Primordial Chief ?

More ......
Now the Mythologic – RishabaDevar of JAINISM is Son of Couples lived in Ayodya- Father Nabiraja and Mother Marudevi, Who after Meditation gave lot of Guidances for Good Civilisation then attained Moksha. World does not start from Rishaba Deva, He was only a Prophet best . . . . . . . . . ALL LEADS TO CHIEF OR SUPREME. Even on Your interpretion FROM IST GOD IS THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD.

Yes, Rishaba is not a Creator God but a Fordmaker. And therefore the world does not start from him or proceed from him because he is not the cause. It seems you have taken the word “ulaku” here to mean the physical world. It can also be taken to mean the people who live in the word. You see the simile “எழுத்து எல்லாம்” is plural and “உலகு” is singular. It makes sense if we take the “world” in plurality, i.e. people of the world.
எழுத்துகளுக்கு முதல் அகரம்
உலகத்தாருக்கு முதல் பகவன்

And also ......
So quoting later day Jainistic books using the terms used by Valluvar is only Copying. பகவனே ஈசன் மாயோன் பங்கயன் ஜினனே புத்தன் - Sudaamani Nikandu

Of course I agree with your observation that we should not depend on works that came after Tirukkural as proofs because the later authors have only employed phrases from a work that must have been very popular during their times. Not only Jaina, but also non-Jaina works also contain plenty of verses modeled after Tirukkural. "ஆதி முதல்வன் அறஆழி ஆள்வோன்" in Mañimékalai (6.7) is very much like the Kurals in first chapter. Can we then conclude that Valluvar is praising a Lord Buddha? Not necessarily, because we cannot decide based on one particular couplet and few couplets. In fact Nammazhvar, Kambar and many others have also been influence by Valluvar!

There are many other reasons for me to say that the word ஆதி பகவன் denotes a Jaina Tirtankara more than anything else. Its all there in my article.

And the last.......
Now just leaving out all Indian Commentators for a Minute, G.U.Poe- “The Eternal Adorable One” Now look AT F.W.ELLIS, G.U. POPE , AND ALSO C.J.BESCHI ALL OF THEM SAY THAT KURAL’S FIRST CHAPTER REFERS TO THE CREATOR GOD ONLY.
Of course, they are all Christians and obviously they will all believe in a Creator God only. In fact most Indian authors also interpret the couplets to mean “Creator God”! Occasionally they give footnotes to say that some of couplets are applicable to Jaina godheads also. Let us not believe in what the majority say. What would have been interpretation had the majority in Tamil Nadu been Jains or Buddhists? With a work like Kural, you can play around the way you want!

எப்பொருள் யார் யார் வாய் கேட்பினும் அப்பொருள்
மெய்ப்பொருள் காண்பது அறிவு.[/tscii:a1e8d9d525]

[NVK Ashraf]

Dear Haran,

You asked:
[tscii:f8e81aa00b]Å¡ÄÈ¢Åý, ÁÄ÷Á¢¨º ²¸¢É¡ý, ±ñ̽ò¾¡ý, §Åñξø §Åñ¼¡¨Á þÄ¡ý, þ¨ÈÅý, ±É ´Õ¨Á¢ø ÌÈ¢ôÀ¢¼ôÀðÎûÇ ¸¼×û¾¡ý §Á§Ä ÜÈôÀðÎûÇ[/tscii:f8e81aa00b] innumerable and continuously increasing [tscii:f8e81aa00b]¸¼×û¸Ç¡?[/tscii:f8e81aa00b]

ஒருமையில் கூறப்பட்டிருந்தால் அவையெல்லாம் ஒரு கடவுளைத்தான் குறிக்கும் என்று எப்படிக்கூற முடியும்? In fact all the established Jaina works also mention these attributes in Singular. I had already quoted from Kayādara Nigañdu:

கோதிலருகன் திகம்பரன் எண்குணன் முக்குடையோன்,
ஆதிபகவன் அசோகமர்ந்தோன் அறவாழி அண்ணல்

You see, everything is in Singular. In fact I can reproduce, if you want, more quotes from Jaina works. Devapriya cited this from Sudāmani Nikañdu! பகவனே ஈசன் மாயோன் பங்கயன் ஜினனே புத்தன்! Once again singular!

You also said:
[tscii:f8e81aa00b]À¢.Ì: ÅûÙÅâý ÌÈû ÅÆ¢ Å¡ú¸¢§È¡Á¡ ±ýÈ Ã¡ö¢Öõ, «ôÀÊ Å¡úž¢ÖûÇ, þý¨È ¿¨¼Ó¨È º¢ì¸ø¸¨Ç Ţš¾¢ôÀ¾¢Öõ ¿õ §¿Ãò¨¾ ¦ºÄŢξø, «ÅÕìÌ ¸¡Å¢, ¦Åû¨Ç, À ºð¨¼ «½¢Å¢òÐ ‘«ÆÌ’ À¡÷ôÀ¨¾ Å¢¼ Á¢Ìó¾ ÀÂÛûǾ¡¸ þÕìÌõ ±ýÚ §¾¡ýÚ¸¢ÈÐ. [/tscii:f8e81aa00b]

I have taken on a task to determine something and I don’t want anyone to press “Escape” button here! "Escape" button is inviariably pressed by those who claim Valluvar to be a non-Jaina, more precisely those who claim him to be a Hindu. I am NOT trying to paint Valluvar as a Jain or Buddhist or Christian. I am not even saying that he is a Jaina. I am only saying that the vast majority have taken Valluvar as a Hindu (just like how our government takes tribals also under the fold of Hinduism) though his work is principally based on Jaina ethics. In fact in my analysis Buddhism comes close second!

[FloraiPuyal]

Ashraf,
I dont exactly understand your goals.
1. Are we discussing about the religion of thiruvalluvar or thirukkural?
2. Are you trying to find references to various religious principles in thirukkural? (this shall include all religions)
if not,
3. Are you trying to prove that thirukkural reflects only one religion? ( what it is, is not important here.)
4. Is this only about thirukkural or all works of thiruvalluvar?

It would be helpful for me to debate, if you can answer these.
If you are just doing the second, then I assume this is not a debate.

[NVK Ashraf]

Dear Puyal,

I think the following paragraph reproduced from my article will provide the answer for your first three questions:

With Valluvar's Jaina background being discussed in every major translation or scholarly publications, it is possible that there is some truth behind these claims. There is a proverb in Tamil that no smoke can emerge without some fire (நெருப்பு இல்லாமல் புகையாது). The objective of this article is to investigate into such claims and to look for answers to the following questions:

(i) If the morals taught by Valluvar in Tirukkural is based on Jaina dharma
(ii) If the Deity praised by Valluvar in his first chapter could refer to Jaina Godhead
(iii) If the answer is 'yes' to the above, are the internal evidences sufficient enough to show Valluvar as a Jaina

Now, coming to your fourth question:


4. Is this only about thirukkural or all works of thiruvalluvar?

As far as I know, Valluvar has written only one work, i.e. Tirukkural. Some one else in this forum also indicated about "other works of Valluvar". I am surprised to know this. Can you please clarify?

[FloraiPuyal]

[tscii:cc4b929d01]
Dear Puyal,

I think the following paragraph reproduced from my article will provide the answer for your first three questions:

With Valluvar's Jaina background being discussed in every major translation or scholarly publications, it is possible that there is some truth behind these claims. There is a proverb in Tamil that no smoke can emerge without some fire (நெருப்பு இல்லாமல் புகையாது). The objective of this article is to investigate into such claims and to look for answers to the following questions:

(i) If the morals taught by Valluvar in Tirukkural is based on Jaina dharma
(ii) If the Deity praised by Valluvar in his first chapter could refer to Jaina Godhead
(iii) If the answer is 'yes' to the above, are the internal evidences sufficient enough to show Valluvar as a Jaina

Now, coming to your fourth question:


4. Is this only about thirukkural or all works of thiruvalluvar?

As far as I know, Valluvar has written only one work, i.e. Tirukkural. Some one else in this forum also indicated about "other works of Valluvar". I am surprised to know this. Can you please clarify?

Unfortunately most of my books are in India and I am here in the US. So I am unable to give you complete details of his other works.

But still I do remember a few of his poems. I will quote a couple of them for now.

எவ்வுயிரும் காக்கஒரு ஈசன்உண்டோ இல்லையோ
அவ்வுயிரில் யான்ஒருவன் அல்லனோ – வவ்வி
அருகுவது கொண்டிங்கு அலைவதேன் அன்னே
வருகுவது தானே வரும்.

"Is there not an eesan (sivan) to protect all lives? Am I not one of them? Why be bothered by things that are destructible? Whatever should happen will happen."

குறுமுனிவன் முத்தமிழும் என்குறளும் நங்கைச்
சிறுமுனிவன் வாய்மொழியின் சேய்.

"kurumunivan's (agathiyan) tamil and my (thiruvalluvar) kural are children of nangai's (umai / parvathi) son's (murukan) language."

Will try to remember more and will post as I do.[/tscii:cc4b929d01]

[NVK Ashraf]

Mr. Puyal,

I am shocked to know that these poems are attributed to Valluvar. :shock: Frankly I have no idea about the source of these poems. I have read innumerable number of books on Tirukkural (Translations, Commentaries, Research articles), but none of them attribute any work or even a fragment other than the Kural as Valluvar's.

Valluvar's work - unlike those of the Kannada 'equivalent' Sarvajna and Telugu 'equivalent' Vemana - is a single work with no poem or couplet out the 1300 couplets attributed to him. Apart from minor differences in prosody, readings and verse placements (what we follow globally is Parimel's arrangement), the Kural is the same wherever you go and buy.

No other work is attributed to Valluvar!

[FloraiPuyal]

Mr. Puyal,

I am shocked to know that these poems are attributed to Valluvar. :shock: Frankly I have no idea about the source of these poems. I have read innumerable number of books on Tirukkural (Translations, Commentaries, Research articles), but none of them attribute any work or even a fragment other than the Kural as Valluvar's.

Valluvar's work - unlike those of the Kannada 'equivalent' Sarvajna and Telugu 'equivalent' Vemana - is a single work with no poem or couplet out the 1300 couplets attributed to him. Apart from minor differences in prosody, readings and verse placements (what we follow globally is Parimel's arrangement), the Kural is the same wherever you go and buy.

No other work is attributed to Valluvar!

If you are in India, I suggest you try to get the book "Thanippadal thirattu". It is a collection of poems by different poets, including Thiruvalluvar. You can find both these and some more poems in that. I think it also has some explanations about the situation in which each poem was composed.

I knew that you would be surprised. But it is real, dear. :)

[bis_mala]

- Some stanzas attributed to VaLLuvar before the "Sangap Palakai" finally accepted KuRaL, thiru NVK Ashraf.

Pl also look into those!

[NVK Ashraf]

Dear Puyal and Bismala,

Do you seriously agree with such claims of Valluvar's authorship? Or just pointing out that such claims of authorship exist?

Many works are attributed to well known authors. Take Kambar. Traditionally there are other works attributed to him (like சரஸ்வதி அந்தாதி, சடகோபர் அந்தாதி, திருக்கை வழக்கம்) but scholars like Hart, Zvelebil and others do not accept this theory.

To cite another example, traditionally few other works than Yoga Sutra (Mahabhasya and works on Ayurveda) are attributed to Patanjali, but many scholars do not consider them as his work.

If this is the case with Kambar and Patanjali, whose other works are always mentioned whenever an article is written about them, it is hard to believe in the theory of attributing other works to Valluvar!

[FloraiPuyal]

Dear Puyal and Bismala,

Do you seriously agree with such claims of Valluvar's authorship? Or just pointing out that such claims of authorship exist?

Many works are attributed to well known authors. Take Kambar. Traditionally there are other works attributed to him (like சரஸ்வதி அந்தாதி, சடகோபர் அந்தாதி, திருக்கை வழக்கம்) but scholars like Hart, Zvelebil and others do not accept this theory.

To cite another example, traditionally few other works than Yoga Sutra (Mahabhasya and works on Ayurveda) are attributed to Patanjali, but many scholars do not consider them as his work.

If this is the case with Kambar and Patanjali, whose other works are always mentioned whenever an article is written about them, it is hard to believe in the theory of attributing other works to Valluvar!

Dear Ashraf, I guess you are probably too confused with misleading comments. Poets of olden days had a few things in common - they will not lie, they all had distinct styles in their works.

If you compare the works attributed to Thiruvalluvar, you can see the pattern. No one else can write exactly like him. In fact the writing style helped identify that there were atleast more than one poet by the name avvai. But in case of Thiruvalluvar, the pattern is strikingly similar in all of these works.

Also, please note that no one will ever dare claim Thirukural to be their work. In the second poem I mentioned, the poet specifically states "My Kural". Modern cine poets could do this, not those of olden days.

Thirukural was a materpiece and so his other works are being unnoticed. That doesnt mean that he didnt write anything else at all.

In fact, if I want to just mislead, I dont have to look for references, I can compose a few poems on my own, say that they were written by Thiruvalluvar - but think again, it is the style which distinguishes these poets. Also please note that I am not quoting from any specific work which says Thiruvalluvar belonged to saivism or some thing like that. These poems are under general collection of individual poems from avvai to kalamegam.

Truth is truth. Face it. :wink:

[NVK Ashraf]

Dear Puyal,

You said:
Poets of olden days had a few things in common - they will not lie, they all had distinct styles in their works. If you compare the works attributed to Thiruvalluvar, you can see the pattern. No one else can write exactly like him.

I understand about distinctive styles. But please don't say that others' cannot copy Valluvar's style. I have seen people these days producing "dummy" couplets in Valluvar's own style! History of literature (globally) says that those who wish their work to be recognized often attribute it to a well known person (so that it doesn't get rejected). To do so they have to ensure that the style and content of the verse or poem they produce are of the same style! Therefore to say that "they don't lie" is not correct. Also integrity is not something that can be mentioned as an evidence in a research report or article.

The reason why Patanjali's other works are not recognized as that of the person who wrote the Yoga Sutra is because of inconsistency in style! One theory is that there must have been more than one Patanjali, just like Avvai and Agasthiyar.

I cant believe that you have taken the statement like "My Kural" that appeared in some poem as an indication for Valluvar's authorship of that work! And that too of about a person like Valluvar who never mentioned about himself in his work (usually the case with most Indian works)!

You also said:
Thirukural was a materpiece and so his other works are being unnoticed. That doesnt mean that he didnt write anything else at all.

As a general statement, this argument makes sense. But I cannnot say so in the case of Valluvar. I have a simple question. If Valluvar had written other works as well (I don't have ANY problem in accepting this, if there sufficient scholarly acceptance to this), why not the scholars who write about Valluvar and his work never mention about this? Why is this only limited to online discussion forums like this?

[bis_mala]

As a general statement, this argument makes sense. But I cannnot say so in the case of Valluvar. I have a simple question. If Valluvar had written other works as well (I don't have ANY problem in accepting this, if there sufficient scholarly acceptance to this), why not the scholars who write about Valluvar and his work never mention about this? Why is this only limited to online discussion forums like this?

Dear Ashraf, poeple go for the masterpiece rather than the other, so that they too can become "distinguished". Scholars - schoolchildren, no diff.

Between Aiswarya Rai and her little known sister, you like to marry Ais. Something like that.

"aadukiRa kovilukku viLakkup pidiththaal, athanaal pukaz undaakum, maRRa nanmaikaLum undaakum."

uNmaithaanE?


_________________

[Sadhana]

Dear Puyal,

I understand about distinctive styles. But please don't say that others' cannot copy Valluvar's style. I have seen people these days producing "dummy" couplets in Valluvar's own style! History of literature (globally) says that those who wish their work to be recognized often attribute it to a well known person (so that it doesn't get rejected). To do so they have to ensure that the style and content of the verse or poem they produce are of the same style! Therefore to say that "they don't lie" is not correct. Also integrity is not something that can be mentioned as an evidence in a research report or article.


NVK Ashraf,

I have been silently following this thread for quite a while now and I must say you are arguing for the sake of arguing. I am not saying there's anything wrong in doing that but I notice that you contradict your own points at times.

For example, in the above statement you actually admit that you understand about poets having distinctive styles. However, you further state that it is easier for people to copy their style of writing. Surprisingly, you contradict yourself by saying that in the case of Thirukkural, you have seen people come up with "dummy" couplets. Obviously these people did not follow the distinctiveness of Thiruvalluvar for you to have noticed that they were just dummies.

Another example is the one you mentioned about the proverb "neruppu illaamal puhaiyaathu". That can basically be applied to every argument that you have outrightedly shrugged off with your comments. Without some sort of fire, there wouldn't have been a statement made that Thiruvalluvar indeed had other works (the smoke). Without fire, there wouldn't have been an implication that Thiruvalluvar was a Saivist (the smoke). Oh my, now the fire is burning on both sides of the rope and I suggest we all let go of it and leave Thiruvalluvar as who he is rather than stamping a religion upon him. It is the religion that has brought down many destructions in the past and present. It is such a pity to see a person like you who actually adores Thirukkural would cause demise to it by associating it with one particular religion. As you said in other threads, Thirukkural should be accepted and read by all. Some people that follow their own religion very strictly will not be interested in it had they known it is a religious (relating to one religion) text.

Another thing I noticed is that you are appalled by the fact that Thiruvalluvar possibly had produced other works. You asked for evidence pointing to this. I ask you the same, are there evidence or "scholar[ly]" essays (in your own words) that contradicts this point of view i.e. that Thiruvalluvar did not produce anything else? I know you are going to say, "these scholars only wrote about Thirukkural, therefore I am going to believe that he only produced that book." My reply to you that is very similar to that of bis_mala's and others alike. People only talk about what was more popular rather than as a whole. For example, Dan Brown wrote many books but he was both criticized and acclaimed for the Da Vinci Code mainly. In fact, there were many books that were written in response to this particular novel. I know you will ask for references and I suggest you go into http://www.amazon.com and type in da vinci code and you will see for yourself.

Anyways, just my two cents.

[NVK Ashraf]

[tscii:d279d18d65]Dear Sadhama,

Thanks for the response and pointing out to some apparent “contradictions” in my postings:

You said:
For example, in the above statement you actually admit that you understand about poets having distinctive styles.

Yes, and therefore anything written in a different style and content or subject has been considered as written by more than one author.

However, you further state that it is easier for people to copy their style of writing.

Yes, that is why many false verses and sayings have managed to find a place in the Hadith of Muslims, as Buddha’s sayings in Nikayas, and Kabir’s sayings in Dohas and Bijaks. Thus, works that differ in style are straight away set aside and works or verses that look similar are included or accepted as works of the same author. Mind you, these are not my opinions, but those of scholars who have studied these works.

Surprisingly, you contradict yourself by saying that in the case of Thirukkural, you have seen people come up with "dummy" couplets. Obviously these people did not follow the distinctiveness of Thiruvalluvar for you to have noticed that they were just dummies.

I know these people (who are my contemporaries!) and therefore I am able to say that they are fakes, in spite of them managing to imitate the Kural!!! How can this be a contradiction?

Without fire, there wouldn't have been an implication that Thiruvalluvar was a Saivist (the smoke). Oh my, now the fire is burning on both sides of the rope and I suggest we all let go of it and leave Thiruvalluvar as who he is rather than stamping a religion upon him. It is such a pity to see a person like you who actually adores Thirukkural would cause demise to it by associating it with one particular religion. As you said in other threads, Thirukkural should be accepted and read by all. Some people that follow their own religion very strictly will not be interested in it had they known it is a religious (relating to one religion) text.

I am sure you have not read my posting well. I have repeatedly said that I am not trying to put Valluvar into the fold of any religion. Valluvar's message is loud and clear. It is for all the world. After all, like you and me, he must have been also born into some religion. Or at least he must have been influenced by some religious philosophy. But his composition is non-sectarian or at least that is how he wanted his work to be known. But his work contains more Jaina ideas than others. But that does not mean Jains have the authority to call it their work or scripture.

You said "It is such a pity to see a person like you who actually adores Thirukkural would cause demise to it by associating it with one particular religion. " Please remove this notion from your mind that only those who do not wish to associate the Kural with any religion should be qualified to adhore it!

Another thing I noticed is that you are appalled by the fact that Thiruvalluvar possibly had produced other works. You asked for evidence pointing to this. I ask you the same, are there evidence or "scholar[ly]" essays (in your own words) that contradicts this point of view i.e. that Thiruvalluvar did not produce anything else? I know you are going to say, "these scholars only wrote about Thirukkural, therefore I am going to believe that he only produced that book." My reply to you that is very similar to that of bis_mala's and others alike. People only talk about what was more popular rather than as a whole.

I am sorry I am not "appalled". I have read Mu.Va’s History of Tamil Literature, Zvelebil’s 1975 work on Tamil Literature, gone through the introductions of Kural and Valluvar in about 15 translations in English, at least 25 articles or essays written about Valluvar and I am yet to come across a statement that there are also other works attributed to Valluvar. I have only come across statements that the Kural is the only work written by him! It is quite natural that I am surprised to know that none of these works mentioned about the other works of Valluvar! I have already spoken to a professor who frequently translates Tamil classics into English and he promptly agrees that there are other works attributed to Valluvar!. And there are also no controversies in accepting them as his work! As I mentioned earlier, I will be only too happy to accept this.

What is perplexing to me is that none of the writers who tried to establish the religion of Valluvar utilized his other works also to look for evidences!
[/tscii:d279d18d65]

[bis_mala]

What is perplexing to me is that none of the writers who tried to establish the religion of Valluvar utilized his other works also to look for evidences!

Nothing surprising or perplexing Mr Ashraf. That is the norm.
For some years, I have been looking for "Chadakoparanthaathi" by Kambar. I cannot find it. Neither have I come across any Kambar commentator mentioning or citing any stanza from the work.

Recently I learnt that Jeyangkondar had also another work, besides KalinggaththuparaNi. I cannot get the book. But someone quoted a verse from it for me.

Saaththanaar had one other work in his name besides his great work Manimekalai. I managed to read parts of it from someone.

Some publishers have done a wonderful service for Tamil by republishing or reprinting some such rare works. Notably SSWPS and Dr Meyappan.

Tamils should be vigilant. Otherwise they may even lose most of what they have now.

[Sadhana]

NVK Ashraf,

I know these people (who are my contemporaries!) and therefore I am able to say that they are fakes, in spite of them managing to imitate the Kural!!! How can this be a contradiction?


I did not realize you were referring to people of the present day. I had to go back to read your post again and yes you did mention people that you currently know. My apologies. However, I was actually referring to people from the past. You said it's easier for people to duplicate others' works and pointing to current trends you implied that it would have been possible in the past as well.

I don't know much about Thiruvalluvar but if what you are saying is true, is it possible Thiruvalluvar himself might have copied off from his predecessors? In this case, his predecessors being people before him who were poets themselves but whose works were never found.


Please remove this notion from your mind that only those who do not wish to associate the Kural with any religion should be qualified to adhore it!


If you read my post again, NVK Ashraf, you will notice that I did not imply this at all. I said there are cases where "SOME" people might not accept Thirukkural if it's being associated with one particular religion. I did not say it was the case for everyone.

BTW, it's Sadhana, not Sadhama :)

Tamils should be vigilant. Otherwise they may even lose most of what they have now.


I totally agree with you on this, bis_mala. As I mentioned in another thread, the use of Thamizh is becoming rarer and rarer and I am afraid for its future. It's true that the recent advancements in technology will actually help us preserve the many Thamizh works electronically. But will there be enough people with lots of interest in the language to keep it going? :?

[NVK Ashraf]

Hi Sadhana,

You said:
I don't know much about Thiruvalluvar but if what you are saying is true, is it possible Thiruvalluvar himself might have copied off from his predecessors? In this case, his predecessors being people before him who were poets themselves but whose works were never found.

Copied from where? Scholars only mention that Valluvar had a good knowledge of many works like Arthasasthra, Manu Smriti, Tamil Sangam classics and some Ayurvedic treatise of his time. He only put all his learnings, wisdom and the prevailing beliefs amongst people to convey his message across in the form of poetry. No one says that the Kural was a copy of any previous works, but only as a work that shows shades of resemblence to many great literary classics, surprisingly including to those originated outside India (eg. Analects, Gulistan and Proverbs). This is quite natural and expected in the case any ethical treatise. For morals worldwide are the same, only the similes and local beliefs change. The Kural is being regarded as a work by a single author, though there are some like VOC who believed that the first four chapters might have been written by someone else, at a later period. But there is no evidence to this.

You wrote:
I said there are cases where "SOME" people might not accept Thirukkural if it's being associated with one particular religion. I did not say it was the case for everyone.

For centuries the Kural is has been considered as a work of a Hindu by the Hindu majority in Tamil Nadu. It is already been associated with a religion! It is still widely accepted. I wonder if it is because the majority are Hindus! Unlikely because the Kural is regarded by Christians and Muslims as well. Of course by Jains as well. We don't have any good representation of Buddhists in India, for otherwise it would have also gained acceptance amongst them. The Kural is not a Gita or Upanishad or an Agama to be neglected by others. You will agree with me on this.

[bis_mala]

It is already been associated with a religion!

You mean "he" has already been associated with a religion (not his work)?
Like Gandhi, a Hindu, but his service was for all - not just the Hindus.

However, he used the word "aathi bakavan" (God who is the beginning ) and iRaivan ( God who is the end of all things).

Consider:

iRu = (iRuthal) mudithal.
iRu > iRuthi (-thi suffix)..
iRu + ai (suffix) = iRai. (- end).
iRai > iRaivan ( = anthamaanavan).

Athi - antham is not a Jain concept. Isn't it? Your comments pl.

[NVK Ashraf]

You mean "he" has already been associated with a religion (not his work)? Like Gandhi, a Hindu, but his service was for all - not just the Hindus.
Yes, he is! Don't people consider him a Hindu or at least an "uncoventional" Hindu and don't most (almost alll) commentators interpret the first chapter as a reference to a Creator God? And you as well!

On your second sentence. Yes, Like Gandhi, Valluvar's services is for all - even if he was a Buddhist or Jain.



However, he used the word "aathi bakavan" (God who is the beginning ) and iRaivan (God who is the end of all things).
Consider:
iRu = (iRuthal) mudithal.
iRu > iRuthi (-thi suffix)..
iRu + ai (suffix) = iRai. (- end).
iRai > iRaivan ( = anthamaanavan).
Athi - antham is not a Jain concept. Isn't it? Your comments pl.
Not a bad assumption. I appreciate it. I hope you are aware that "iRai" also means so many other things. I referred Rev. J.P. Rottler's Tamil Dictionary. iRai means so many things:

God,
King
Exalted
Chief
Line of any joint of the fingers
Minuteness (siRumai)
An instant (kaal viraivu)
Dues, tax, pay tribute
Halt, halting place, appointed place by God
Trouble, (varuththam)
Eaves of a building
Feather or wing
Fire at the day of judgment

Somehow, the "End" is missing in this list.

I have question. If Valluvar had used "iRaivan" to denote the "End", why did he use it in couplet 5 as well?

As you said, I also believe that god as the "End" is not a Jaina concept. Please refer to one of my earlier postings, now reproduced below:

The firs Kural says: "ஆதி பகவன் முதற்றே உலகு". Please notice there are two "firsts" in this. ஆதி and முதற்றே. ஆதி means not Superior or Great, but First, Initial or sometimes referred also as Primordial. The next word is also means First, Beginning, Start etc. Now the question is why should Valluvar mention "First" twice? First God and First in the world. Is there any first God in Vedic Hinduism?

Well, statements like "God is the Beginning and End" is found all religious texts, both Vedic and Semitic:

Gita, 10:20
अहमादिश्च मध्यं च भूतानामन्त एवच
I am the Beginning, the Middle and also the End of all beings
Qur'an, 57:3
هُوَ الْأَوَّلُ وَالْآخِرُ
He is the First and the Last
Revelation, 1:8
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End
Isaiah, 48:12
אֲנִי רִאשׁוֹן וַאֲנִי אַחֲרוֹן
I am the First and I am also the Last
Tirumandiram, 1570
ஆதிக்கண் தெய்வமும் அந்தமுமாமே
God is the Beginning and End of all.

All these references are about a Creator God. We have to ask the question why Valluvar didn't speak about the End? The fact that the couplet talks about two "firsts or beginnings" and the fact that Valluvar didn't say anything about the "End or Last" shows he was not talking about a Creator God who is often projected as the "Beginning and the End" but a god or deity who is adored as the first. This suits perfectly to the Jain Adi Bagavan who was the first of the Tirthankaras. Many Tamil Jaina texts refer to Adi Bagavan.

How do you find this explanation? Please let me know.

[bis_mala]

[tscii:73d4e4b8f8]Mr Ashraff

þÃóÐõ ¯Â¢÷Å¡ú¾ø §ÅñÊý ÀÃóÐ
¦¸Î¸ ¯Ä¸¢ÂüÈ¢ ¡ý.

This is a direct reference to a creator God. "¯Ä¸¢ÂüÈ¢ ¡ý".

"¦¾öÅõ ¦¾¡Æ¡«û"
"¦¾öÅò¾¡ø ¬¸¡ ¦¾É¢Ûõ"
"Å¡Û¨ÈÔõ ¦¾öÅòÐû ¨Åì¸ôÀÎõ".

You may wish to study all these (I am giving from memory) whilst I will take a little time to draft a reply to your query /discussion points above.

I hope the materials I am forwarding will be helpful to you. I am not objecting to your views.
[/tscii:73d4e4b8f8]

[NVK Ashraf]

[tscii:21740b9585]Dear Sivamaalaa,

Thanks for your information. I have included all these issues under section 4 of my article "God, gods and saints in Tirukkural".

4. God and gods in Tirukkural
4.1. The word "தெய்வம்" (theyvam) in Tirukkural
4.2. Scriptures and Brahmins in Tirukkural
4.3. Jaina concept of God
4.4. Gods and celestials in Tirukkural

In this posting I will reproduce here the part that deals controversy regarding the reference to "Creator of the World" (உலகியற்றியான்) in couplet 1062:

Valluvar did not hesitate to use these beliefs about God and gods as similes and superlatives while composing a couplet to give that extra punch to drive home his message. Two couplets would suffice to cite such instances in Kural:

Couplet: 1062
If some must beg and live, let the Creator of the world
Himself roam and perish! PS, SI
Couplet: 1073
The base are like the gods:
They also do whatever they like. PS

Here Valluvar's emphasis is the dreads of begging and the baseness of the wicked. Just like couplet 55 where his concern was to emphasize the virtues of being an obedient wife. The focus should be on what Valluvar tries to emphasize and not what similes Valluvar employs to drive home the message. To cite another instance, Valluvar says in Kural 931 "Don’t gamble even if you win for it draws you in like fishes drawn to shining baits". You may ask how Valluvar, a staunch promoter of ahimsā and vegetarianism, can even mention about fishing. Well, the emphasis here is not on promoting fishing, but only use that as a simile to highlight the importance of the dangers in gambling. In the third division on "Love", Valluvar says in couplets 1090 and 1201 that love is sweeter than wine. Here too, one may ask how Valluvar who wrote a chapter exclusively on "Abstinence from alcohol" could have compared love with wine and even suggesting that wine does delight and intoxicate when consumed! Once again, the the author here is not upholding the habit of drinking wine but only uses it as a simile to emphasis on the unique qualities of love. All these only goes on to show that Valluvar did not hesitate to use the beliefs and practices prevailing amongst the people of his time as similes to put his message across.

Popley (1931) and Gopalan (1979) maintained that no other couplet in the Kural can be more opposed to the Jaina idea than this couplet 1062 on Creator God. Their contention was that Valluvar believed in a Creator God and therefore he referred to Him as the Creator. According to Chakravarti (1953), Valluvar here strongly condemns the religious attitude which tries to justify social evils as a result of divine will. Valluvar is actually cursing God here if He had to be held responsible for some men to beggars in this life! He wouldn't have done so, had he believed in a Creator God who is just and full of mercy and compassion. In Jainism, which has an extreme position of Law of Karma, grief and joy in this life has nothing to do with God but to the consequences of one's deeds in the past alone. Nāladiyār, a Jaina classic beyond doubt, declares:

Nāladiyār 107:
If people, with heart full of grief, beg from door to door and suffer endless misery,
It is the result of their deeds in a former birth.

Valluvar seems to have only reinforced this idea by saying that the Creator God may himself go begging if he has to be held responsible for some to live on begging. The same Valluvar has mentioned elsewhere in the Kural that propriety of conduct is great birth, while impropriety will sink into a mean birth (Kural 133). In couplet 330, he says a deprived life of diseased bodies comes from depriving the life of another (in the previous birth). So too begging, which is a result of one's deeds in the past and not a result of Creator God's will. [/tscii:21740b9585]

References:
i) Chakravarti, A. 1953. Tirukkural. Deccan Press, Vepery, Madras. 648 pages
ii) Gopalan, S. 1979. Tirukkural and Indian traditions. In: The Social Philosophy of Tirukkural. Affiliated East-West Press Pvt Ltd. pp 41-74
iii) Popley, H.A. 1931. The Sacred Kural or The Tamil Veda of Tiruvalluvar. YMCA Publishing House, Calcutta. pp 23-24

[NVK Ashraf]

[tscii:1e98512cb7]Dear Sivamaalaa,

Here also I reproduce from my article which is nearing completion.

The word "theyvam" occurs in six couplets in Tirukkural. Let us take these two first.

Couplet: 55
Even rains fall at the command of the wife who upon rising
Worships not God, but her husband. SS

Couplet: 1023
The Lord himself will wrap his robes
And lead the one bent on social service. * SS, PS

From these couplets, we can appreciate that Valluvar was aware of the "belief in God", "Worship of God" and also aware of the notion that "God has the capability to do all". If Jains do not believe in a Creator God, how come Valluvar used these beliefs in his work? The reference to such beliefs in God cannot be taken as an indication to prove that Tirukkural is non-Jaina in character; for the simple reason that the emphasis in these couplets is not to affirm such beliefs but use them to emphasize virtues like industry in couplet 619, obedience to husband in couplet 55 and on social service in couplet 1023.

If Valluvar had only used the word "தெய்வம்" in Tirukkural to emphasize another point, then we need to look at couplet 43 where he declares serving god as one of the five duties of a householder!

தென்புலத்தார் தெய்வம் விருந்தோக்கல் தானென்றாங்கு
ஐம்புலத்தாறு ஓம்பல் தலை.

A householder’s main duty is to serve these five:
God, guests, kindred, ancestors and himself. * SS

The word "theyvam" here can easily be taken to mean a Creator God. Social service is a prominent part of Jaina ethics, and therefore Jainism prescribes six daily duties for every householder: Adoration of deity, veneration of gurus (ancestors), study of scriptures, practice of self discipline, observance of fasts and charity. Thus the word "theyvam" could well mean the adoration of a Jaina god, be it a Tirthankara, Arhat or Siddha.

In some places, the word "theyvam" could taken to mean "fate". Nālatiyār, a Jaina work beyond doubt, has this verse: "திருத் தன்னை நீப்பினும், தெய்வம் செறினும்" which literally means "Even if fortune forsakes and gods frown" (verse 304). While Rev. F. J. Leeper translates this verse as "Though Lakshmî withdraw from them and God be angry", S. Anavaratavinayakam Pillai translates as "Though fortune forsakes him and fate frown on him". Note the choice of the word "fate" here. Going by this logic, the word "theyvam" in couplet 619 (தெய்வத்தான் ஆகாது எனினும் முயற்சி தன் மெய் வருத்தக் கூலி தரும்) which comes under the chapter "Fate" (ஊழ்), can also be translated as "fate". Even Suddhanta Bharathi translates here as "fate"!

Another word used by Valluvar to mean "fate" appears to be "vaguthān" (வகுத்தான்) in couplet 377 (வகுத்தான் வகுத்த வகை அல்லால் கோடி தொகுத்தார்க்கும் துய்த்தல் அரிது). Not surprisingly, this couplet also comes under the chapter "Fate". Even it is translated or meant as "Dispenser", we have to take it as reference to the prevailing beliefs during the time of Valluvar, which the author has utilized to give his message that extra punch. Therefore the word "theyvam" in Tirukkural could mean three different things depending on the context. It could mean "fate" (619), a deity to be worshipped (43) or a deity capable of doing what man cannot achieve (55). [/tscii:1e98512cb7]