Ilayarajas songs in different thalams

[sdeepak]

I dont know if there is already a discussion forum concerning this topic. If there is one please excuse me.

Most of the songs in TFM are set to the 4 beat sequence. And this leads us to the classic Adi thalam. Ilayaraja has composed a few pieces in different thalams. Some of them which i quote from the top of my head are " OM Namaha" from 'Idaiyathai Thirudathey' which is set in misra nadai and " Meetaatha Oru Veenai" from ' Poonthotam ' which is set in kandam.

http://www.musicindiaonline.com/music/tamil/s/movie_name.4514/music_director.504/

http://www.musicindiaonline.com/music/tamil/s/movie_name.5122/music_director.504/

I have also heard that he has composed a few songs in jampa thalam, but havent been able to locate them.

SD

[ananth222]

good topic.
IR has loads of songs in different thaalams, and even in the 4 beat songs he introduces very nice rhythmic patterns.

he has numerous great songs in 7 beats, to list a few:
Isaiyil thodanguthamma (Hey Ram)
Gangai karai mannan adi (Varusham 16)
Paattaale buddhi sonnaar (Karagaattakaaran)
Pottu vaitha oru vatta nila (Idhayam)
and many more...

and "raasathi unna kaanaadha nenju" (Vaidhehi kaaathirunthaal) is in kanda nadai (8 beat cycle with each count in 5 beats).. what a masterpiece song!

[thamizhvaanan]

Some of the songs with long thalams that comes to mind immediately are "Aiyaa veedu" froma kadhalukku mariyadhai and "valai osai" from sathya.

Compare these with songs like "putham pudhu kalai", "eeramana rojave" :D . This is called mastery :notworthy:

[ananth222]

this thaalam stuff is really interesting.

"meettaatha oru veenai" from Poonthottam probably deserves a thread by itself. Its in kanda chaapu but the first interlude seems to bring interesting thaalam variations. In the pallavi we can clearly count "tha ka tha ki ta" (2+3=5) but the first interlude (after the violin starts) seems to go more like "tha ka dhi mi tha ka" (2+4=6) (follow the drums).

Maybe experts can shine more light on this...

[sdeepak]

ananth,

the song "meettaatha oru veenai" presents some interesting variations in the first interlude and i have to listen to it more intently to understand it better.

The song ' raasaathi unna kaanaadha' is set in triputa thaalam ( 8 beat cycle) tisra nadai ( 3/beat) ..

Few other songs in tisra nadai are

1. Paruvame from 'Nenjathai Killathe'

2. Unnai Naan Ariven from 'Guna' - The song switches to mel kaalam in the latter half.

SD

SD

[ananth222]

yup sorry I was wrong abt raasaathi, its in tisra nadai.
I recalled it wrongly in my mind.

the song in kanda nadai is "azhagau malar aada abhinayangal kooda" from the same movie, not raasaathi onna...
would u call it kanda nadai or just kanda chaapu?

[njv]

yup sorry I was wrong abt raasaathi, its in tisra nadai.
I recalled it wrongly in my mind.

the song in kanda nadai is "azhagau malar aada abhinayangal kooda" from the same movie, not raasaathi onna...
would u call it kanda nadai or just kanda chaapu?

makkalae, dont know how you are identifying all these. I really envy you. just to understand raaga and thaala, i am learning carnatic for last 2 years - but believe me, with the phase i am going, i will retire first before knowing these. u guys are great.

[thumburu]

Hi guys, interesting discussion atlast!!! What do you feel about this song
"solai kiLigal rendu
Konji konji kulavudhamma", a Mano/SJ beauty of a duet set to GowriManohari scale. Film : Kovil KaaLai

[Vkrish]

Kanda Thalam is normally used for aggressive numbers such "azhagau malar aada abhinayangal kooda" or Siva Thandavam songs. But i think IR broke the custom and used this for a most melodious KJJ number ... Any guess !!!

It is "Mazhai Varudhu Mazhai Varudhu Kudai Kondu vaa ...".
Plz correct me if i am wrong.

[sdeepak]

As vkrish says, kanda chapu is used for fast dance steps, but it can also be used to compose melodious slow numbers if the 5 beats are spread over 2, 3 or even 4 cycles and by slowing down the tune. Classic example from carnatic is 'seetha kalyanam'



Another melodious song in kandam is " Alai meedu " from 'Kadhal Kavithai'.

[app_engine]

What is the thALam structure for 'kuzhaloodhum kaNNanukku' and 'ninnukkOri varNam'? Both these songs have always fascinated me...

[madhu]

can someone please explain whats the structure of thALam for "vanakkuyilE kuyil tharum kaviyE" from the movie "Priyanka" ?

[thamizhvaanan]

I was always fascinated by ARR's innovative use of mridangam in Nenjiniley nenjiniley song. For quite sometime, I was under the assumption that no one has tried to use rhythm instruments so differently before ARR. How wrong I was!

Just recently I paid some extra attention to "andhi mazhai pozhigiradhu" song. Amazing! Opening is so much like a western classical, and tabla sounds were beautifully crafted to fit into that WCM mode. Then gradually it fades into a gentle mridangam rhythm (similar to the one used in "poongathavey" song). Does anyone knw wat thalam it is?

The amazing thing abt these songs is that, as a casual listener, u will never know these subtle techniques being used. Its just the mood and emotion that hits u in the face, only on paying attention one gets to know such innovations that goes behind these songs, dat gives the overal feel.

[crvenky]

What about the talam of the song Aruna kirana deepam from Guru (Malayalam)?

[ARUNPRAKASHKRISHNAN]

it is misrachapu.

[ARUNPRAKASHKRISHNAN]

genrally misra chapu has 7 beats or 14 beats[in the next speed of 7].raaja has done wonders in this thala.for example listen to the pallavi of the song kalidasan kanna dasan from the prabhu film soorakottai singakutty.the song is in misra chapu.every cycle of misrachapu has 14 beats as i said earlier.he has taken two cycles for the rhythm setup which becomes 28.then the rhythm has been arranged as 7 times 4 which is 28. so the rhythm progression on the mridangam goes like this.....
tham tham tham tham tham tham tham .every tham has 4 matras in it. so the sounding will be like a four beat cycle but the thalam is misrachapu that is 7.

generally in the film songs tht has a 7 beat cycle the percussion players play in the mode of 3+4.
but raaja 's innovative mind has thought diff and what we have is a classic song.
one more song has also the same rhythmic structure which i forgot now. will post as soon as i remember.
i dont know whether any one has written this in the forum earlier. if yes sorry about that.
thanks friends

[app_engine]

ok, a naive question...is 'malaikkOvil vAsalil, kArthigai dheepam minnudhE' also misra chapu? ( This popular rhythm has 7 beats repeating "ching-gu-ching-gu-ching-gu-chA"):-)

Sun TV used to play this as their "starting music" when the channel was in test mode (or when it was still to start their 24 hr services)

[ARUNPRAKASHKRISHNAN]

no it is 4 beat cycle.

[app_engine]

Yes, Arun, Now I get it:-) Thanks!

chingu-1, chingu-2, chingu-3, chA-4:-)) Must be the most popular beat cycle, I think.

Here's a good primer put together by a DF'er:
http://www.tfmpage.com/my/meter_thalam.html

This has the example of 'oLiyilE therivadhu dhEvadhaiyA' and explains how it's a 4/4.

[app_engine]

rAsAththi onna & azhagu malarAda - both pallavi's appear to have 3 beat patterns...Is that correct?

[ananth222]

rAsAththi onna & azhagu malarAda - both pallavi's appear to have 3 beat patterns...Is that correct?
azhagu malar aada is 5 beat

[RR]

Arun

How about

1. pon vaaaam panneer thoovuthu (indru nee naalai naan)
2. manasu mayangum (sippikkul muthu)

[ananth222]

1. pon vaaaam panneer thoovuthu (indru nee naalai naan)
2. manasu mayangum (sippikkul muthu)

they are both 7 beats.
2 is fairly easy to see, if you count "1 2 3 1 2 3 4", "manasu mayangum" falls perfectly.
in the case of 1, "pon vaanam" starts on the first "3" beat, it may be a little confusing. ("panneer thoovudhu" falls on 1231234). there are similar "off" starts in the charanam also ("mazhai pookkale" starting on second 3)

[kiru]

1. pon vaaaam panneer thoovuthu (indru nee naalai naan)
2. manasu mayangum (sippikkul muthu)

they are both 7 beats.
2 is fairly easy to see, if you count "1 2 3 1 2 3 4", "manasu mayangum" falls perfectly.
in the case of 1, "pon vaanam" starts on the first "3" beat, it may be a little confusing. ("panneer thoovudhu" falls on 1231234). there are similar "off" starts in the charanam also ("mazhai pookkale" starting on second 3)

It seems when Einstein played the violin very well, a fellow violinist asked him appreciatively, "do you count the beats ?" . Einstein replied, "not at all, it is in my blood".
I am of the opposite kind :-) . So help me understand how this works.
For eg. manasu mayangum - the chandam is th-na-na na-na-na-na so every beat per maathirai. Or am i confused ?

[app_engine]

Kiru,
Probably the beat pattern for "manasu mayangum" is like this if we have a seven beat cycle:

ma-1
na-2
su-3
ma-4
yang-5
gum-6
silence before next word-7
:-)

[ananth222]

it helps to follow beats in terms of "tha ki ta" etc.
3 beat cycle: "tha ki ta | tha ki ta | ..."
4/8 beat: "tha ka dhi mi : tha ka jhu nu | tha ka dhi mi : tha ka jhu nu | ..."
7 beat: "tha ki ta : tha ka dhi mi | tha ki ta : tha ka dhi mi | ... "
5 beat: "tha ka : tha ki ta | tha ka : tha ki ta | ... "

now these can be combined, multiplied and permuted in different ways. for instance, in "manasu mayangum", the percussion in the intro plays (fast) "tha ki ta tha ki ta tha ka dhi mi tha ka jhu nu" - this is just two 7 beat cycles at double speed, permuted (you can match it with the one in the list above). For the pallavi:
tha ki ta : tha ka...dhi mi
ma.na.su...ma.yan.gum

for "pon vaanam":
tha ki ta.....:.tha ka dhi mi | tha..ki.. ta : tha ka dhi mi
........pon.....vaa.....nam......pan ne...er...tho oo vum

sometimes singing the tune using "tha ki ta..." helps.

[krish244]

Very nice and simple explananation ananth222. Whenever I hear MD's (or other musicians) sing in the form of "tha ki ta...", I used to wonder how they relate to a song or beats. Now atleast I have an idea.

thanks,

Krishnan

[venus05]

I feel that the following songs follow the same pattern as "Manasu Mayangum"

1. Meedum Meedum Vaa - Vikram
2. Aravaudhae en anbae raman - Rajavin Ramana malali - By Bhavadharini
3. Isail thodunguthama - Hey ram
4. Om Namaha - Idhyathai thirudathae

I am not sure about #3 and #4 though. Thanks.

[venus05]

One More with the same pattern .....

"En Jeevan paduthu unnai than theduthu" by KJY.

In all these IR songs, the one common feeling is "longing"
The range is from sexual (viragam) to spiritual (bhakthi).
Thanks.

[ARUNPRAKASHKRISHNAN]

the other song which i want to mention is kalyana maalai kondadum penne from puthu puthu aarthangal. the song is in 5 beat cycle or say 5/8.the 1st bgm has rhythm and orchrstration like 22222..22222....ie thaka thaka thaka thaka thaka.

[app_engine]

This morning 'azhagu malarAda' was on repeat on my car. I think IR has maintained the beat cycle thru-out the song, including the interludes, which wasn't often seen with IR those days (and most hit songs today follow this style, thanks to people liking less complexity). It's very nice to see the "loop" right from prelude all the way to ending:-) It has some very nice bass guitar work as well.

Makes me think the percussion sounds of IR's mono songs score over the stereo songs. In stereo songs, I think tsk-tsk sounds dominate and the bass portion isn't felt much.

[Sureshs65]

Infact Illayaraja uses the same beat cycle as 'Azaghu Malar Aada" for the Malayalam song, 'Poovai Virinju' (Adharvam). It is almost as if he has transposed the song to Malayalam. The ragam is different though. Excellent song. I can't get enough of it. Though I don't understand Malaylam I love the words :)

S.Suresh

[Sureshs65]

Tamizh,

Continuing here from the other thread. I understand what you are saying wrt the rhythm or nadai changes in Rahman's songs. There are definitely many instances when this happens, especially in the interludes.

I was referring more to the complexity of the rhythm in Raja's songs and not just to the nadai variations. I was once watching the Music Show hosted by SPB, "Ennodu Paatu Paadungal". In that a girl was singing a Raja song. (Forgot which one it was.) The song followed one sort of rhythm but the percussions were following a different pattern. After she finished singing, SPB said that it was difficult song to sing since the song went as 4x8 and the rhythm went 5x8 or vice versa. One song where I find such a thing happening is 'Nagu endide' from 'Pallavi Anupallavi'. I always used to wonder how Janaki sung it so well when the rhythm seems to be going in a totally different fashion. Must have a been a challenge to sing such songs when the songs used to be recorded with live instruments. Nowadays such difficulties don't seem to arise to the singers as the song is recorded without any instrument backing, from what I understand.

S.Suresh

[kiru]

I hope tamizh is around..What I was saying in the other thread was IR was the first to use "loops" not ARR (just like app_engine here) :-) ..(in the context of songs without much nadai changes).
Anyways, can you throw some light on the taalam in "shiva karu damaruha layamai naadham" in kochu kochu santhoshangal (mal) ? the song has a different rhythm for every line.
(BTW, IR's usage of bass is different. I am told it is similar to the old baroque - basso continuous or something like that. It does not carry the rhythm, even though at times it drives the rhythm and then switch es to playing counter melody etc. Guitar Prasanna notes this).

[Sureshs65]

Kiru,

My knowledge on rhythm is very barbaric :)

Thanks for bringing up this song, 'shiva kara'. I listened to it trying to keep the beat. I think the song as such is in Adi Talam but there are lot of nadai variations throughout. If I kept the Adi talam beat, then I found that the first charanam was starting 2 beats after the samam but the second charanam was starting on the samam !! So I am not quite sure if I am right.

I know there are quite a few people who have contributed here who have good knowledge on the tala aspects. It will be great if one of them looks into this and gives us an idea of what is going on !!

Luckily I have the online link to this song. Not the original one but the one sung by participants of a competition. Good singing. You can check it out at http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=shODD9HN2iw

S.Suresh

[thamizhvaanan]

Tamizh,

Continuing here from the other thread. I understand what you are saying wrt the rhythm or nadai changes in Rahman's songs. There are definitely many instances when this happens, especially in the interludes.

I was just listening to Enthan vaanil (http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=0y1NfvtU7_s)from Kadhal virus. There isnt much of rhythm changes in it, its not even a valid example, I m sure there are other eligible examples around. But even in this, as we proceed into the first charanam, he just introduces an extra beat (an extra percussion actually). This gives a feeling of getting forward or shifting gears in a song. (Just give a listen, its worth it :) ) And IMO ARR does it more often than IR.

Obviously you guys are talking abt something even more technical, kind dicussions for which I am not qualified :P . Can any of you, point out some IR songs in which IR shifts gear as we proceed into the song. One which comes to my mind immediately is Mandram vantha from Mouna ragam. Oh Vasantha raja is another one. Would love to get introduced to more such songs! :D


The song followed one sort of rhythm but the percussions were following a different pattern. After she finished singing, SPB said that it was difficult song to sing since the song went as 4x8 and the rhythm went 5x8 or vice versa. One song where I find such a thing happening is 'Nagu endide' from 'Pallavi Anupallavi'.

I would like to listen to these songs :) . Reminds me of "Newyork nagaram" song, the rhythm goes at almost twice the speed of main melody.. kind of hurrying an otherwise slow song. I have observed ARR use this technique in few other songs.

[thamizhvaanan]

I hope tamizh is around..What I was saying in the other thread was IR was the first to use "loops" not ARR (just like app_engine here) :-) ..(in the context of songs without much nadai changes).

Sorry Kiru, missed that.. where did you mention loops? I beleive Looping was used for quite a while prior to getting introduced in TFM. I guess loops were used in Pink floyd's song Money as early as early 70's. Informed people can say whether it was the first occurrence.


Anyways, can you throw some light on the taalam in "shiva karu damaruha layamai naadham" in kochu kochu santhoshangal (mal) ? the song has a different rhythm for every line.

Thanks for this. Quite honestly listening to (may be observing) such transient rhythms for the first time.

[Sureshs65]

Tamizh,

You may have listened to this earlier but here is an example where percussion plays a very good role in the song. "Poo Malarndida' from Tik Tik Tik. Starts with traditional carnatic music percussion, mridangam and Jesudas's entry with the swaram emphasizes the classical nature of the song. Slowly the instruments backing the song change to western arrangement and when the song ends it is completely western with only a few taps of mridangam added. Shows how Illayaraja fuses two systems so seemlessly together. Observe how the few mridangam beats add to the overall charm when the pallavi is sung again after the charanams.

You can listen to it at http://www.thiraipaadal.com/albums/ALBIRR00668.html

You can also listen to 'Idu Oru Nilaa Kaalam' from the same film. Typical Jazzy arrangement of the drums. Nice introduction of North Indian 'solkattus' in the first interlude.

S.Suresh

[Sureshs65]

Tamizh,

Here is the article written by Vicky which analyzes the complexity of the rhythm pattern in one of Illayaraja's not very often heard song. The song in embedded in the article http://raagadevan.blogspot.com/2008/06/hero-glyphics.html

You can also listen to this song and another song from the same movie (Rajavin Parvaiyil), 'Oru Sudar', which also has a beat arrangement which doesnt seem to fully synchronized with the song itself. Though the beat is constant, the tension is provided by the variance between the song rhythm and the beat rhythm. This song is available at http://www.thiraipaadal.com/albums/ALBIRR00557.html

S.Suresh

[crajkumar_be]

Can any of you, point out some IR songs in which IR shifts gear as we proceed into the song. One which comes to my mind immediately is Mandram vantha from Mouna ragam. Oh Vasantha raja is another one. Would love to get introduced to more such songs! :D

"Raja raja chozhan naan"
"Poove sempoove"
"Maamanukku" (Netrikkann - i think the reverse happens here)
"Saandhu pottu oru sandhana pottu"
"polladha madhana baanam"
"Senorita" (Rhythm synching with guitar riffs in the pallavi and settles down in the charanam.. does it qualify?)
"yelai nee etti po" (Mumbai Xpress)
......
....
others, anyone?



I would like to listen to these songs :) . Reminds me of "Newyork nagaram" song, the rhythm goes at almost twice the speed of main melody.. kind of hurrying an otherwise slow song. I have observed ARR use this technique in few other songs.
Doesn't the rhythm slow down after the initial guitar strums? Or do you mean that itself is twice the speed of the main melody?
I love this song but i ponder about the rhythm in this song? The rhythm after the initial guitaring is anti-climactic for me but i wonder how else it could have been done.. :)

[rajasaranam]

"Raja raja chozhan naan"
"Poove sempoove"
"Maamanukku" (Netrikkann - i think the reverse happens here)
"Saandhu pottu oru sandhana pottu"
"polladha madhana baanam"
"Senorita" (Rhythm synching with guitar riffs in the pallavi and settles down in the charanam.. does it qualify?)
......
....
others, anyone?


Top of the Head...

Raajathi raaja un thanthirangal - Mannan
Raakku muthu Raakku - Ejamaan
Karumaathur Kaattukkulle - Virumaandi
Megam Kottattum - Enakkul Oruvan
Siriya Paravai Siragai Virikka - Antha Oru nimidam
Pattukannam Thottukolla - Kaakki Sattai

[app_engine]

There used to be a nice article on the thaLam complexity of 'nAn vaNangukiREn' (guru-Tamil) in the official website of IR (raaja.com). That page does not work currently, though.

[rajasaranam]

Was responding to a comment in Suresh's (http://backgroundscore.blogspot.com/2008/12/slumdog-millionaire-score.html) (Not our suresh here) Blog regarding usage train sounds

I wrote in that blog thus


///A.R.Rahman has always been fascinated by the rhythm sound of a train and there are not many who have used it in songs as interestingly as him.///

Hmmm... Ignorance is Bliss :)

Thalapathi BGM???
Poongaatru Puthithanathu - Moondram Pirai???
Manjal Nilavukku - mudhal Iravu???
Poovarasambu Poothachu - Kizhakke Pogum Rail???
Goods Vandiyilae - Kunguma chimizh???
thalaattu Kaetkaatha - Paatukku Naan Adimai???
Rathiri Neram railyadi oram - Bramma??? (No real train Yet the rhythm is so well constructed and it needs a composer yet to be born to beat it...Even the tabla is made to roll like the wheels of a train in the second charanam in this song)

Not trying to to flame a war...(Athuthaan Kadaisila Nadakkumnaalum :P) but it will be interesting for the likes of people who wants to do a study with the rhythms of Raaja, these songs will be the starting points to know how he had used the rhythm of Train into these songs for different moods like love/Eroticism/melancholy/pathos etc., :notworthy:

[Sureshs65]

'Yellai nee ettipo' is a good example of how the same lines can be sung with different rhythm pattern. The first two times the lines are sung with a certain rhythm and then the rhythm changes for the same lines.

If someone wants a rhythm pattern similar to what is done by most music directors now (synth + additional percussion instruments once in a while + a bit of gathi change) check out 'Salasalakum Kaatre' from 'Twinkle Twinkle Little Star'. You can hear it here: http://www.thiraipaadal.com/albums/ALBIRR00670.html

S.Suresh

[ananth222]

Anyways, can you throw some light on the taalam in "shiva karu damaruha layamai naadham" in kochu kochu santhoshangal (mal) ? the song has a different rhythm for every line.
(BTW, IR's usage of bass is different. I am told it is similar to the old baroque - basso continuous or something like that. It does not carry the rhythm, even though at times it drives the rhythm and then switch es to playing counter melody etc. Guitar Prasanna notes this).
Great song, I hope someone can discuss the thaalam in detail. seems like roopakam (3 beat) with a different nadais for each line.
The lyrics also seem to be interesting, describing "ragam", "nadai", "thalam","layam","naadham" etc. maybe someone can translate...

[thamizhvaanan]

Tamizh,

You may have listened to this earlier but here is an example where percussion plays a very good role in the song. "Poo Malarndida' from Tik Tik Tik. Starts with traditional carnatic music percussion, mridangam and Jesudas's entry with the swaram emphasizes the classical nature of the song. Slowly the instruments backing the song change to western arrangement and when the song ends it is completely western with only a few taps of mridangam added. Shows how Illayaraja fuses two systems so seemlessly together. Observe how the few mridangam beats add to the overall charm when the pallavi is sung again after the charanams.

You can listen to it at http://www.thiraipaadal.com/albums/ALBIRR00668.html


:ty: Suresh, this one goes straight into my ipod... listening to it for the first time... I like it a lot :).

[thamizhvaanan]

"Raja raja chozhan naan"
"Poove sempoove"
"Maamanukku" (Netrikkann - i think the reverse happens here)
"Saandhu pottu oru sandhana pottu"
"polladha madhana baanam"
Yes.. I think there are few other songs sung by Yesudoss... they dont come to my mind immediately.


"Senorita" (Rhythm synching with guitar riffs in the pallavi and settles down in the charanam.. does it qualify?)

Just the prelude right :? I get the feeling guitar riffs are inspired from whole lotta love by Led zepplin. I may be wrong, it may be just a very common riff.



Doesn't the rhythm slow down after the initial guitar strums? Or do you mean that itself is twice the speed of the main melody?
I love this song but i ponder about the rhythm in this song? The rhythm after the initial guitaring is anti-climactic for me but i wonder how else it could have been done.. :)

Yes, but after 2nd thoughts, I agree with you.. I m not sure how else it cud ve been done. But the beats does impart a sense of urgency to an otherwise laid back melody.

[thamizhvaanan]

"Raja raja chozhan naan"
"Poove sempoove"
"Maamanukku" (Netrikkann - i think the reverse happens here)
"Saandhu pottu oru sandhana pottu"
"polladha madhana baanam"
"Senorita" (Rhythm synching with guitar riffs in the pallavi and settles down in the charanam.. does it qualify?)
......
....
others, anyone?


Top of the Head...

Raajathi raaja un thanthirangal - Mannan
Raakku muthu Raakku - Ejamaan
Karumaathur Kaattukkulle - Virumaandi
Megam Kottattum - Enakkul Oruvan
Siriya Paravai Siragai Virikka - Antha Oru nimidam
Pattukannam Thottukolla - Kaakki Sattai

RS, revisiting Megam kottatum after a long time... what a frivolous dizzy ending!!! Superb! :notworthy:

[thamizhvaanan]

Not trying to to flame a war...(Athuthaan Kadaisila Nadakkumnaalum :P) but it will be interesting for the likes of people who wants to do a study with the rhythms of Raaja, these songs will be the starting points to know how he had used the rhythm of Train into these songs for different moods like love/Eroticism/melancholy/pathos etc., :notworthy:

I dont mind flame war (I think they r fun :P ) but Suresh did say that not many used it in songs as interestingly as him. I think therein lies the difference :P

[Sureshs65]

Talking about frivolousness and fun, I heard this song yesterday and enjoyed this a lot. It is from the movie 'Inimay Naangadhan'. This is a harikatha with a difference. Every song in the katha kalakshepam is a film song. Every possible type of song is sung. The amazing part is that all songs are accompanied by the traditional harikatha backing, mridangam and tabla. The overall feel is one of harikatha. Listen to it. A lot of fun and also shows the genius that is Raja. The song 'Keethana Arambathil'. You can listen to it here: http://www.thiraipaadal.com/albums/ALBIRR00202.html

S.Suresh

[Sureshs65]

Rajasaranam had indicated the song 'Karumathur Kaatukulle' from Virumandi. An outstanding song from an excellent album. I am very convinced that this particular song couldn't have been composed by anyone other than Raja. This requires complete control over rhythmic aspects, emotional aspects and folk music. My favorite from this album along with 'Nettiyile Pottu Vai'. Though a very brief song, 'Nettiyile Pottuvai' brims with energy, which can only come from these type of folk songs.

S.Suresh

[Sureshs65]

I wrote tabla by mistake in 'Inimay Nangathan' song. It is a harikatha and has only mridangam as accompaniment.

S.Suresh

[Sureshs65]

Coincidentally saw the SPB show today. The singers were murdering 'Agaya Vennilave' (Arangetra Velai). After they finished the song, SPB commented that the song was tricky since the rhythm went as chatusram (4x4) whereas the song went as tisram (3x4). He said that if you asked the singers, they would say the song was in tisram and if you asked the percussionist, they would say it is in chatusram. He also spoke about the song having a large range.

S.Suresh

[tvsankar]

thaluki thaluki from kizhaku vasal

Acharya pada vaikum thalam.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRU-D18Lpd0&feature=related

[crajkumar_be]

Coincidentally saw the SPB show today. The singers were murdering 'Agaya Vennilave' (Arangetra Velai). After they finished the song, SPB commented that the song was tricky since the rhythm went as chatusram (4x4) whereas the song went as tisram (3x4). He said that if you asked the singers, they would say the song was in tisram and if you asked the percussionist, they would say it is in chatusram. He also spoke about the song having a large range.

S.Suresh
:yes:

[tvsankar]

Elelam kuyilae from pandi naatu thangam

http://thiraipaadal.com/albums/ALBIRR00458.html

[complicateur]

I believe kandEn engum pUmagaL Urvalam from KaaRrilE varum geetham doesn't conform to the 4/4 Adhi ThaaLam. I'm sure there are plenty, some of which are mentioned here, but I was coincidentally listening to this song as I was reading the thread.

http://www.thiraipaadal.com/albums/ALBIRR00239.html

[crvenky]

What about the song Azhagana manjappura from Ellame Rasathan? The tala seems to be complicated.

Can somebody explain about how he divides the tala among 2 or 3 instruments?

[kiru]

Complicated taalams/taalakkattugal are a salient feature of Indian music. It is really not a requirement for film music, just nadai changes or even different percussion instruments are lapped up by the audience. IR shows his artistic bent in pursuing these aspects even though close to 95% or more of his audience would not even notice this (including myself :-)).
That said, IR was always aware of the so-called attractiveness of novel "rhythm arrangements". Almost all his popular songs have a different rhythm arrangement, while some of these might switch to tabls in the charanams. This aspect was taken to its zenith by Rahman, who made this aspec as an innovation/novelty in each and every single one of his songs.
(BTW, was listening to the hEy rAm party song in the car this morning, switches to indian percussion in the end from the drums)

[app_engine]

Almost all his popular songs have a different rhythm arrangement, while some of these might switch to tabls in the charanams.

And, an example for this is the 'poo pookkum mAsam thai mAsam':-)

[kiru]

Almost all his popular songs have a different rhythm arrangement, while some of these might switch to tabls in the charanams.

And, an example for this is the 'poo pookkum mAsam thai mAsam':-)
Right, I would have loved to hear that rhythm throughout the song, but I guess it does not go well with the structure/style of the charanams IR builds up (somebody with isai gnanam pl. confirm) . In the case of 'sorgamE enraalum', he maintains the rhythm style throughout. And here the charanam is built up differently .

[app_engine]

After the terrific rhythm arrangement starting at 'pongalu pongalu vaikka' and captivating in the pallavi, IR drops it off right at the beginning of the first interlude - totally watering down the composition, IMO.

The interludes and charaNam are sweet, no doubt, but not comparable to the pallavi:-(

p.s. - One should see PS struggling to sing during the charaNam - vayasAyiduchchOlliyO?

[naarayanan]

misra chapu

1. manasu mayangum - sippikul muthu
2.pon vanam - inru nee nalai naan
3.kalidasan - soorakoatai singa kutti
4.ayiram malargale - niram maradha pookal
5.meendum meendum - vikram
6. vayyari godharamma - preminchi pelladu (telugu)
7. om namaha - idhayathai thirudadhey ,geetanjali (telugu)
8. en jeevan paduthu -
9.anbe vaa arugile - kili paechu kaetka vaa
10.isaiyil thodangudhamma - heyram
11.nadhiyil aadum poovanam - kadhal oviyam
12.ila nenje vaa - vanna vanna pookal
13.kannale kaadhal kavidhai - aatma
14. pottu vaitha - idhayam

the list continues.......

[naarayanan]

khanda chapu

paarthaale theriadho naeku - raghavendra
azhagu malar aada- vaidehi kathirundaal
kalyana malai - pudhu pudhu arthangal

....and more


anybody knows any composition in sankeernam.

[naarayanan]

yenadu vidiponi mudi vesene from 'sri kanaka mahalakshmi recording dance troupe' is in khanda chapu and a beautiful captivating ahir bhairavi aka chakravaham.

this is used as background score in 'swathi muthyam' aka 'sippikul muthu'

[naarayanan]

http://www.dishant.com/jukebox.php?songid=37497

[naarayanan]

all songs from the above movie are a treat to ir fans. i have heard them more than 1000 times and am never tired of them.

[thamizhvaanan]

http://www.dishant.com/jukebox.php?songid=37497

:ty: thanks a lot narayanan. First time i am listening to other lang songs... splendid ones :clap:

[rajasaranam]

http://www.dishant.com/jukebox.php?songid=37497

:ty: thanks a lot narayanan. First time i am listening to other lang songs... splendid ones :clap:

Ohhh.. Thamizh you should listen to some of his Telugu nos. where he had freaked out in rhythm Arrangements :notworthy: Will try to come up with a list soon. For the beginning try listening to 'Sanskrit Disco' movie from this movie http://dishant.com/album/Maharishi.html
Listen to other songs also, this is considered one of the best albums by Telugu Fans of Raaja.

[rajasaranam]

khanda chapu

paarthaale theriadho naeku - raghavendra
azhagu malar aada- vaidehi kathirundaal
kalyana malai - pudhu pudhu arthangal

....and more


anybody knows any composition in sankeernam.

Is it Sankeerthana?!! 'Vevela Varnaala' is a beautiful song from that movie
BTW welcome to TFM Page/HUB :)

[thamizhvaanan]

http://www.dishant.com/jukebox.php?songid=37497

:ty: thanks a lot narayanan. First time i am listening to other lang songs... splendid ones :clap:

Ohhh.. Thamizh you should listen to some of his Telugu nos. where he had freaked out in rhythm Arrangements :notworthy: Will try to come up with a list soon. For the beginning try listening to 'Sanskrit Disco' movie from this movie http://dishant.com/album/Maharishi.html
Listen to other songs also, this is considered one of the best albums by Telugu Fans of Raaja.

Pls do that soon :D Actually I expected it.. in early 80's when he was at the zenith of his creativity, it wouldnt have mattered what language or what script.. at that period he would have composed classics even in his sleep :notworthy: :notworthy:

[thamizhvaanan]

-- deleted --

[thamizhvaanan]

-- deleted --

[thamizhvaanan]

http://www.dishant.com/jukebox.php?songid=37497

:ty: thanks a lot narayanan. First time i am listening to other lang songs... splendid ones :clap:

Ohhh.. Thamizh you should listen to some of his Telugu nos. where he had freaked out in rhythm Arrangements :notworthy: Will try to come up with a list soon. For the beginning try listening to 'Sanskrit Disco' movie from this movie http://dishant.com/album/Maharishi.html
Listen to other songs also, this is considered one of the best albums by Telugu Fans of Raaja.

Pls do that soon :D Actually I expected it.. in early 80's when he was at the zenith of his creativity, it wouldnt have mattered what language or what script.. at that period he would have composed classics even in his sleep :notworthy: :notworthy:

Listened to the first song again.. If my guess is correct, it shd have been composed in the first half of 80's.. arnd the timeperiod of Mouna ragam and mella thiranthadhu kadhavu. A wild guess based on the type of arrangements employed :ashamed:

[ananth222]

Mouna Raagam - 1986
Mella thiranthadhu kadhavu - 1986
Maharshi - 1987

btw, do you really have to quote every message before you everytime you post? It would be nice to be succinct, and stick to the subject. Thanks for your interest.

[Sureshs65]

RS,

Sankeernam is a name of the talam. I think it has 9 beats.

Other than the songs being good, the movie 'Sree Kanakamahalaxmi Dance Troupe' has some of the best set pieces when it comes to humor. The Godavari dialect and the amazing timing of actors like Kota Srinivasa Rao, Y Vijaya and Nirmala make this a delectable treat. I roll on the floor everytime I watch the scene where Kota comes to convince Nirmala to send her grand daughter along with his troup.

Sorry for the digression but couldn't resist it.

S.Suresh

[kiru]

sanskrit disco - sounds like raajathi raaja from agni natchathiram to me (?).

[crajkumar_be]

How could i forget
"Kannan vandhu paadugindran"
"Metti Oli"
...


Can any of you, point out some IR songs in which IR shifts gear as we proceed into the song. One which comes to my mind immediately is Mandram vantha from Mouna ragam. Oh Vasantha raja is another one. Would love to get introduced to more such songs! :D

"Raja raja chozhan naan"
"Poove sempoove"
"Maamanukku" (Netrikkann - i think the reverse happens here)
"Saandhu pottu oru sandhana pottu"
"polladha madhana baanam"
"Senorita" (Rhythm synching with guitar riffs in the pallavi and settles down in the charanam.. does it qualify?)
"yelai nee etti po" (Mumbai Xpress)
......
....
others, anyone?



I would like to listen to these songs :) . Reminds me of "Newyork nagaram" song, the rhythm goes at almost twice the speed of main melody.. kind of hurrying an otherwise slow song. I have observed ARR use this technique in few other songs.
Doesn't the rhythm slow down after the initial guitar strums? Or do you mean that itself is twice the speed of the main melody?
I love this song but i ponder about the rhythm in this song? The rhythm after the initial guitaring is anti-climactic for me but i wonder how else it could have been done.. :)

[naarayanan]

thanks for ur replies. i have not been here for long. my friend usha (tvsankar) only asked me to participate in tfmpage discussion regarding taala. so i posted here.

there are some classics in telugu and kannada by raja. most of them he has used in thamizh like 'jothe alle' from geetha , 'maata rani' from maharishi etc. as 'vizhiyile' from 100 naal and 'manjapodi thekkaiyile' respectively in thamizh.

still there r some beautiful songs which r only in telugu and kannada.

i will give u some.

there is a song 'vennelay' from skmrdt which is in a rare raga agnikopam. out of the world is the least i can say abt this song.

http://www.dhool.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=20477#20477

i have written abt the raga here.

and the song 'santoshakke' from geetha is an 'ilamai idho idho' in kannada and no new year passes without this song in karnataka.

i will post more when i find time.

and yeah, sankeernam is a syncopated talam with 5+4 beats. and nothing comes to my mind immediately with raja's music.

[complicateur]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqxJvf6EcRY

Interesting (3/4) 7 beat I guess on this song.

[crajkumar_be]

"Senorita" (Rhythm synching with guitar riffs in the pallavi and settles down in the charanam.. does it qualify?)

Just the prelude right :? I get the feeling guitar riffs are inspired from whole lotta love by Led zepplin. I may be wrong, it may be just a very common riff.


Sounds similar but not identical. Actually its like a cross between "Whole Lotta Love" and Jimi Hendrix's "Voodoo Child" (http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=dw1Lvn5g62I)
(Watch out for the wakapekka pedal right at the beginning).

Senorita la semma speed-a irukkum...and then joined by the second guitar (Whole Lotta Love)..

[Sureshs65]

The 'Naan Kadavul' song 'Kannil Paarvai' has a nice and different beat. The song I think starts one aksharam before the samam. That is what I felt. My knowledge on layam is poor so someone who has expertise in this can clarify.

S.Suresh

[ananth222]

Just heard this song by IR:
"Oru koottil" from Kolangal (1995)
http://www.thiraipaadal.com/albums/ALBIRR00304.html
interesting and unorthodox

[Sureshs65]

A nice song Ananth. An interesting rhythm pattern. Have not heard this song before. Thanks for pointing it out.

S.Suresh

[Sureshs65]

A nice Kanda Chapu talam song (5 beat). Unlike other songs like 'Azhagu Malarada', which have a Kanda Gati within the Adi Talam framework, this has Kanda Chapu throughout.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7mjMjimEKU&feature=related

Observe how Illayaraja uses different rhythm instruments throughout. There is thavil in the beginning, the synth rhythms, the bongos(?), the tabla. Everything blending so beautifully.

Anyone know of other Kanda Chapu songs? By Raja or others.

[tvsankar]

poo poo poo
pootha solai from En Uyir thozhan

http://www.centralmusiq.com/Puthu-Nellu-Puthu-Nathu-tamil-mp3-download.php

[tvsankar]

muthamizh kaviyae varuga

[Sureshs65]

This excellent post by Violin Vicky explains the nuances of the thalams for a couple of songs.

http://raagadevan.blogspot.com/

(I had posted this link in another thread and then thought it was appropriate to have it in this thread as well.)

[jaiganes]

http://www.thiraipaadal.com/albums/ALBIRR00323.html

Adadaa - ingu vilayaadum...

The second interlude and the portions of charanam have a very complex rhythms... and by God who is the male singer (definitely not KJY) sounds like Jolly Abraham and what a toughie to sing this song so well...

[jaiganes]

http://www.thiraipaadal.com/albums/ALBIRR00323.html

Adadaa - ingu vilayaadum...

The second interlude and the portions of charanam have a very complex rhythms... and by God who is the male singer (definitely not KJY) sounds like Jolly Abraham and what a toughie to sing this song so well...

Also the oru oorile oru rajakumaran song from the movie - forget the ultimate picturisation and listen to the song alone - this is experimentation on an unheard of scale. varied sound scapes, varied rhythm patterns, kiddie stuff to Ph.D stuff all in one song

[irir123]

the vocal harmony based "naan porandhu vandhadhu" is bloody brilliant! IR always reserves something special for Panchu Arunachalam!!

[Sureshs65]

Jai,

Thanks once again. Hearing 'adada' for the first time. Clearly not Jesudas.

BTW, the site says 'Maya Bazar' is a 1985 movie but I remember it being in the 90s. When was it released?

[tvsankar]

Maya Bazar - 96 la vandhadhu nu nenaikiren.
pdam perae - Maya Bazar95 or 96

apo release ana padam dhan idhu.
add parthutu padam parka asai paten.
son apo 1st std.
avanukum pidichadhu. plan panni theatre pona
padathai maathitanga. miss panninom........

[thumburu]

Yes, it was named "Mayabazaar-1995" , nothing but Kalyanaraman revisited . Watched Mayabazaar and Raasaiah back to back with our family friends and vividly remember their comment "paatellam enna ivaLo mosama irukku!!! iLaiyarajavaa idhu?? Adhaan market poyiduthu ". I personally liked 3 songs from Rasaiya "karuvaattu kuzhambu" , "dindukallu" and another one which I cannot recollect immediately. Reg Mayabazaar, "naan porandhu" and "oru oorile" were simply brilliant. Between 93-97 , Raja was in an experimental mode . Post KM, he resorted to simple, mediocre stuff as may be he felt there were no takers for the former.

[Sureshs65]

Was the other song from Rasayya, 'kadhal vaanile'?

I can understand the comments you heard during those times. I also heard very similar comments from people. Those were the Rahman days and for many people Raja sounded 'outdated'. The need of the hour was the new rhythmic loops and the raga being made explicit using the standard and well worn out phrases. As you rightly mention many experiments did not get the acceptance. Films like 'Chandralekha', 'Paatu Paadavaa' went down without a fight. The general feeling on the street was that Illayaraja had lost it. And to some extent I have to confess that I too was in that same mood during those times.

Now, when you listen to these films without worry about their 'hit' status, you are stunned by what was being done. Even a movie like 'Kumbakonam Gopalu' has some lovely songs. (RS once asked me, "How can you expect a movie with such a name to have good songs?" :) ) I am not sure I would agree with the post KM assessment. There were some movies where the music was simpler but if you take the Malayalam films of the same period, there is nothing simple about them. 'Kochu Kochu Santoshangal', 'Friends' etc had very complex instrumentation and tunes. And ofcourse, 'Virumandi' and 'Mumbai Express' happened post KM. My feeling is that during these time Raja was trying to balance between his needs and the market needs, something which didn't have to do earlier in his career.

[thumburu]

No Suresh. Infact "kaadhal vaaniley' and "mastaana" are the least liked ones, though quite popular then . Regarding post KM phase, my scope is only wrt tamil films around 1997-2001 period . I could sense a perceptible drop in quality , say in films like "naatupurapaatu", "veera thaalaattu","thalaimurai", "chinna durai", "poomani" etc where the tunes were predictable and lacklustre

[jaiganes]

http://rajamanjari.blogspot.com/

The laya raaja post aptly discusses a complex laya transition. there is also rhythm change as we transition from carnatic to WCM (or did we?). Awesome to listen and read. really I havent heard this song b4 and I am stumped .
Oh wasnt there the bass guitar that joins the veena in the second interlude with guitar and other WCM instruments?
I bow to thee Raaja.

[eagle]

http://rajamanjari.blogspot.com/

The laya raaja post aptly discusses a complex laya transition. there is also rhythm change as we transition from carnatic to WCM (or did we?). Awesome to listen and read. really I havent heard this song b4 and I am stumped .
Oh wasnt there the bass guitar that joins the veena in the second interlude with guitar and other WCM instruments?
I bow to thee Raaja.

I listened to the song "ilamanadhil" in is blog...one thing i have to accept it frankly i never paid attention to this once compared to other popular number from the movie.

But to write an entire article about the song which ordinarily goes unnoticed ...this is only possible with raaja.. he put so much into a 5 min. song!!....
Rightly the blogger says "Music of the one and only Emperor of Music-Illaiyaraaja" :clap:

If there is so much to look forward from him same way for us to look backward and unearth the gems....I instantly fell in love with this number...

[Sureshs65]

Jai,

Surprisingly this is one song that I have heard before !! Surprising because I haven't heard many of the rare songs of that era. I am not sure if Usha had posted this in the SOTD thread but I have certainly heard it. A wonderful Mayamalavagowla. This man somehow finds multiple facets of this raga. It never bores you but instead bores into your heart.

[jaiganes]

http://rajamanjari.blogspot.com/

The laya raaja post aptly discusses a complex laya transition. there is also rhythm change as we transition from carnatic to WCM (or did we?). Awesome to listen and read. really I havent heard this song b4 and I am stumped .
Oh wasnt there the bass guitar that joins the veena in the second interlude with guitar and other WCM instruments?
I bow to thee Raaja.

I listened to the song "ilamanadhil" in is blog...one thing i have to accept it frankly i never paid attention to this once compared to other popular number from the movie.

But to write an entire article about the song which ordinarily goes unnoticed ...this is only possible with raaja.. he put so much into a 5 min. song!!....
Rightly the blogger says "Music of the one and only Emperor of Music-Illaiyaraaja" :clap:

If there is so much to look forward from him same way for us to look backward and unearth the gems....I instantly fell in love with this number...

The songs he has chosen to analyse show something about the early Raaja of 80s. It was the early Raaja who wasnt sure where something was coming from - There was a distinct feeling that he needed to keep the Western Classical elements kinda separated from the carnatic/folkish and the go between was the Bass Guitar which he has rightly mentioned in his blog. then after a while in 80s and late 80s all became one family - there is no need for a bridge - They are all one now - for the listener this is when the troubles(happy troubles i mean) began - when does the Classical carnatic end and where does the Western classical begin? What is the boundary? Can be quite confusing in a pleasant way - Then he released two Konar notes in the form of How To name it and Nothing but wind and now Thiruvaasagam - Enough guides for us to enter the maze and come out whole.
His choice of pantuvaraali (I got the explanation this blogger gave) is interesting (Isnt it the same raaga in Andhi mazhai pozhigiradhu?) Coz I traced some swaras back to Hamsanandi songs as well is also rather gutsy. while MSV and KVM used Raagas in film music, they went into the depths of raagas and distilled the essence of them to bring it out in one song, Raaja is a provocative experimenter seeing where all the contours of a raaga go and what all other strange forms it can meet and where can hand shakes to those forms be done.. It not only requires the dosage of Love (to accept all things on the other side of boundary), but also extreme guts and hard work that make a genius to do that .

[eagle]

What an observation !!

The Western arrangement and orchestration-without mixing even a single alien swara- combined with the Indian rhythmic calculations and patterns are possible only by one person!

[Sureshs65]

Jai,

As you and others rightly point out, what Raja has been doing is to unify everything without making any one of them distinct. Actually Raja makes one form distinct, .i.e., if he is making a folk song, the spirit is bound to be that of a folk song. What he does is that he uses resources from every part of the world to service this folk song. So the folk song would be accompanied by western classical, Indian classical, jazz, rock and what not but in spirit it is not a folk song mixed with other forms but it is just a folk song!! (This is one reason why lot of people don't get it nowadays!!!). Same thing happens to a carnatic song. It can have a bass guitar, a jazzy sax but eventually remains a carnatic song. The unification he achieves is unparalleled. Even in the great Tiruvasagam, I never tire of repeating this argument, what he does is to keep the bhakthi bhavam intact inspite of all the orchestration. So if you keenly listen to 'Tiruvasagam' for a few times, what remains with you is something that touches your soul and not the grand orchestration. I remember the video in which Raja says that he has not given grand music or tried to worry about how note combinations can be done etc, but that he had given simple music which will support the emotional content of Tiruvasagam. I was then thinking, "who is this man kidding?" Wasn't this grand music? It was only after multiple listens did I understand what Raja said. The music was 'just right' for Tiruvasagam.

This is one reason why I am not one of the advocates of 'Raja needs to move away from film music' stand. For Raja's aesthetics is based on emotion and films with the cliched or new situations provide this. Based on these emotions Raja weaves his cloth, bringing to bear every musical form that fits. And the various musical forms come in only if they can service the emotion at hand. Otherwise they are ruthlessly discarded. This is something which we need to talk about as well. As how Raja does not get anything in, just to prove that he can do it. It has to with his aesthetics. Very rarely do you get such an amazingly talented artist who always wants to be true to the intended emotion and doesn't do anything just to display his skills or knowledge. We could see this in the older MDs and Raja is a true follower of these great MDs.

[Raj4376]

Hi friends,

I noticed a sudden spurt in the no.of hits in my blog yesterdayand was led to this page by the sitecounter.

The kind of discussions taking place here has left me spellbound and no words can describe my amazement.

Since it is a discussion on the Talas used by Raaja, I request you all to go through these as well:

http://rajamanjari.blogspot.com/2008/04/laya-raja.html

http://rajamanjari.blogspot.com/2008/09/ilaiyaraaja-majestic-musician.html

Of course, it will be nice if you go through all my posts in the blog and give your feedback.

Henceforeth you can also see me actively participating in the discussions in this forum.

Thanks!
Raj[/url]

[Sanjeevi]

Welcome Raj Keep posting here :)

[jaiganes]

Hi friends,

I noticed a sudden spurt in the no.of hits in my blog yesterdayand was led to this page by the sitecounter.

The kind of discussions taking place here has left me spellbound and no words can describe my amazement.

Since it is a discussion on the Talas used by Raaja, I request you all to go through these as well:

http://rajamanjari.blogspot.com/2008/04/laya-raja.html

http://rajamanjari.blogspot.com/2008/09/ilaiyaraaja-majestic-musician.html

Of course, it will be nice if you go through all my posts in the blog and give your feedback.

Henceforeth you can also see me actively participating in the discussions in this forum.

Thanks!
Raj[/url]

I saw your blog link in the Prakash pov blog spot and followed u there and shared that with ppl around here. vishayam therinjavanga sagavaasam engalukku romba thevai... welcome..

[Sureshs65]

Raj,

A warm welcome. Your blog is in my google reader so I don't miss you :) Though I must confess I haven't left a comment there. As Jai says, the more knowledgeable people discussing music, the more everyone gains.

[Raj4376]

Thanks Sanjeevi, Jaiganesh and Suresh.

I am just a tiny drop in that ocean called ILaiyaraaja..
Shall try and share whatever little knowledge I have!

[Raj4376]

[tscii:60095652e4]Music and Mathematics- a lot of similarities apart from the M factor.

Music is full of Mathematics and, Mathematics is full of Music.

Starting from the seven notes, can we think of anything in music without numbers(and therefore mathematics)?

The Melakartha system in Carnatic Music follows mathematics.
The aalapana before a ragam follows mathematics.
The Niraval- followed by the swaraprasthara- follows mathematics.
The Tani Avartanam follows mathematics.

(Please note that I have taken Carnatic music as a sample and let this not be misconstrued that I am praising one form of music.All systems of music follow mathematics)

When it comes to Film music, I cannot think of any composer other than our Maestro who has played around(literally) with mathematics and calculations.

His recent composition in Nandalala is yet another diamond in the crown.

In his compositions, he has used Cross-Rhythms(Endrendrum Anandame-Kadal MeengaL), Aagaaya Vennilaave-Arangetra VeLai), two types of rhythms alternating (Vaa VeLiye-Paadu Nilaave), count starting in the beginning and ending only as the songs ends(Kaadalin Deepam Ondru-Thambikku Endha Ooru).

‘Kai Veesi Nadakkura Kaaththe’ is another experiment with the modern instruments, the synth beats giving an illusory feeling.

It appears as though the beats are being missed by the singers while in reality it is not so..

It appears as if the song starts after ‘samam’ but it is not so.

What he has done is actually very simple.

The composition is set in the 4-beat Chatusra Eka Talam and the beats follow the simple ‘ta ka dhi mi’ pattern.Only difference is the sharp sound produced at the end of second beat.
The Pallavi also gets extended with the freewheeling ‘ sanchaaraas’ that rise like a crescendo.

The 4-beat count in the vocals finally finishes only in the end while the percussion keeps following the 4 beats.

Maybe Raaja sir wanted to convey the philosophy of life where we keep doing things on and on without realising the fact that the Divine binds us!

There are other significant aspects in this composition.Generally, I do not like the latest synth sound and beats in his music.But the sound in this song is very unique.

The prelude starts with a kind of a folk instrument and the music that follows is mesmerising.

Rarely does Raaja sir repeat his interludes.In fact, he was the first one(and as far as I know the only one) who composed different pieces for the three interludes-(yes..there was a time when we did have three stanzas and three interludes!).

But here, the piece sounds so beautiful that one does not even realise that it is repeated.
It spruces up the entire song.

The entire composition is tender, complex, and deep but simple.

Like the subject of Mathematics ..

Like the Breeze that blows swinging its arms.. [/tscii:60095652e4]

[Sureshs65]

Raj,

:thumbsup: Lovely post and I liked your comparison with mathematics. It so happened that incidentally I also had posted reg Raja's music and mathematics in another thread.

Now I need to listen to 'kaiveesi' keeping your inputs in mind.

[Raj4376]

Could you pl. give me the link to your post on the same subject?

Thanks!

Raj

[Sureshs65]

Raj,

This is here: http://www.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?t=13881&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=240

This is the thread where we are discussing about Raja's fusion and I wrote about how Raja does his own theorems under the usage of instrument part.

[Raj4376]

[tscii:5d4b4e7912]'PalliyaRaikkuL' from Bala Nagamma is another classic example of his usage of various patterns in the same talam.

Very recently, I analysed the song in my blog and I am reproducing the part related to the tala patterns:

The third interlude is meticulously arranged with beguiling layers of rhythmic patterns.

The beats of the Melody-Rhythm ensemble are:

1. Ta - - Ta - - Ta - - - Ta – Ta - -
that is only the 1st, 4th, 7th,11th and the 13th beats are played.

This pattern continues 5 times with the strings in the background..

We hear only the tuned percussion in the following patterns:

2.Only the even beats are played now: - ka – ka – ka - ka

3.The next pattern is : Ta – Ta - (12 times-played twice)followed by ta ka ta ka dhi mi ta ka twice in ‘mel kaalam’ (faster mode).

The first part (ta ka) is played in ‘Usi’ that is only the odd beats (ka) are played.

This pattern is played twice.

Note that the previous pattern (2.) has only the even beats while the next one has only the odd beats.

4. The next pattern is ta ka dhi mi four times with only the ‘ta’ and ‘dhi’ played in the fourth time(twice).

5.Fourth pattern –ta ka dhi mi ta – dhi mi (4 times)

6.The last pattern-ta ka dhi mi (4 times) followed by ta - - -.

It unravels the wonders of the raga and the tala beautifully..

It captures the entire gamut of human emotions..

It takes us to an ethereal world..

Now, who is the real magician?

உன் இசை அத்தனையும் தேன்..

Your music is full of honey.. [/tscii:5d4b4e7912]

[Sureshs65]

Raj,

Too late in the day (or shall say too early in the day) to listen to this song. Will do it first thing tomorrow. Good writeup as usual.

[jaiganes]

http://www.thiraipaadal.com/albums/ALBIRR00060.html

Horrible film by RKSelvamani and very obscure dhandam, vulgar lyrics, Telugu dubbing.. All not withstanding
listen to jing jikka song for the innovative rhythms of Raaja...
Never heard such a rhythms since Maarugo marugo from vetri vizha..

[jaiganes]

@Raj - Odam ondru from Thirupura sundhari (donn which year?) Fits in xactly with Rabindra sangeet pattern

[Sureshs65]

http://www.thiraipaadal.com/albums/ALBIRR00060.html

listen to jing jikka song for the innovative rhythms of Raaja...
Never heard such a rhythms since Maarugo marugo from vetri vizha..

I thought the 'jing jinka' was part of a song. Didn't realize that it was the starting of the song!!!

irir123: This song is dedicated to you :lol:

[Sureshs65]

Thanks for the 'jing jikha' song. Raja freaks out on the thalam.

[skr]

Chengathir Kaiyum - Sneha Veedu

This song is actually in Misram Taalam pattern (7/8) , what seems to be happening in the prelude is it goes in Chatushram or you can see 8 beats per cycle take place 10 1/2 times which is 84 counts and the song begins on the 85th count ..Now if you see 84 is perfectly divisible by 7 as well :) ..From the 85th count onwards it goes in perfect Misram. So in effect Maestro has just played with the rhythm by fooling us and look as if the song is in Chatushram when actually it is not ..Super creativity by the Maestro ..He has not only used his laya skills but also has showcased his mathematical skills ..Hail the brilliant Maestro ..

To illustrate , i feel it works out like this

Ta Ka Di Mi Ta Ka Ju Nu (8)
Sa Sa Sa Ri ~ Ga ~ ~

Ta Ka Di Mi Ta Ka Ju Nu (8)
, , , , , , Sa Sa

Ta Ka Di Mi Ta Ka Ju Nu (8)
Sa Ri ~ Ga ~ Ma ~ Pa

Ta Ka Di Mi Ta Ka Ju Nu (8)
Ma ~ Ga ~ , , , ,

Ta Ka Di Mi Ta Ka Ju Nu (8)
, , , , , , , ,

Ta Ka Di Mi Ta Ka Ju Nu (8)
, , Sa Sa Sa Ri ~ Ga

Ta Ka Di Mi Ta Ka Ju Nu (8)
~ ~ , , , , , ,

Ta Ka Di Mi Ta Ka Ju Nu (8)
Sa Sa Sa Ri ~ Ga ~ Ma

Ta Ka Di Mi Ta Ka Ju Nu (8)
~ Pa Ma ~ Ga ~ , ,

Ta Ka Di Mi Ta Ka Ju Nu (8)
, , , , , , , ,

Ta Ka Di Mi (4)
, , , ,

Total =84 which is divisible by 7

From then on it goes in perfect Misram
Chengathir Kaiyum
Sa Pa Ga Sa Ri Sa Ri
Ta Ki Ta Ta Ki Da Mi

Another thing which i found it is the humming melody in the prelude also goes only in 7s - Humming(14 counts) + Humming(14 counts) + Rest (14 counts) and again Humming(14 counts) + Humming(14 counts) + Rest (14 counts) =84 divisible by 7&14..Oh my gawd , such wonderful division of the beats absolutely brilliant stuff.

Interesting catch in the song as additionally explained by Kalyanaraman Gopalan..
Maestro has simply transposed the Misra chappu thalam in the prelude. Try putting the thalam in reverse when the prelude starts and you will suprised ! What an out-of-box thought process.

The rhythm of the preludes goes like this:

THA KA DHI MI
THA KI TA

THA KA DHI MI
THA KI TA

and Misra chaapu thalam is exactly the reverse which results in Viloma Chaapu :)

[skr]

Kaiyil Veenai - Vietnam Colony
Adi Thalam Misra Nadai

I would have listened to this song so many times before but never knew it was in Misram. I realised it only recently while listening to this song via a bus travel from Chennai to Bangalore. With Raaja you always discover new things :)

Swaram : Sa Ri2 Ga3 Ma1 Ma2 Pa Da2 Ni3
Ragam : Hameer Kalyani (i think so)
Thalam : Adi Thalam Misra Nadai

Kai Veenai
Sa Ga Ri | Ri Ma1 Ga ~
Ta Ki Ta | Ta Ka Di Mi

Yai Yenthum
Ga Pa ~ | Ma2 Pa Ma2 Pa
Ta Ki Ta | Ta Ka Di Mi

Kalai Vaani
Ga Ma1 Ri | Ri Ga Ma1 Ga
Ta Ki Ta | Ta Ka Di Mi

Yai sustain
Ga ~ ~ | Ri ~ Sa ~
Ta Ki Ta | Ta Ka Di Mi

The same lines repeats again.

In effect 1 Avartana of Adi Thalam consists of 8 Aksharas
1 Akshara = Ta Ki Ta Ta Ka Di Mi
(For eg Kai Veenai is one Akshara , Yai Yendhum is another Akshara)
Each of these Aksharas is divided into 7 Maatras which is the Misra Nadai (Ta Ki Ta Ta Ka Di Mi = 7)
To illustrate
Kai Veenai = 1 Akshara = 7 Maatras
Yai Yendhum = 1 Akshara = 7 Maatras
Kalai Vaani = 1 Akshara = 7 Maatras
Yai sustain = 1 Akshara = 7 Maatras
again repeat
Kai Veenai = 1 Akshara = 7 Maatras
Yai Yendhum = 1 Akshara = 7 Maatras
Kalai Vaani = 1 Akshara = 7 Maatras
Yai sustain = 1 Akshara = 7 Maatras

So totally when we add , we have 8 Aksharas and 56 Maatras resulting in Adi Thalam Misra Nadai.(8*7)
thus 1 Avartana (Cycle) = 8 Aksharas (Adi Thalam) = 56 Maatras (Misra Nadia) .

[V_S]

skr,
Brilliant post on thalams. :clap: :clap:Yes, as you said, we could easily be misled by just counting few bars and concluded as Chaturshram (or Adi thaalam in first), unless you count fully to get that last four. Sameway, second one unless you know the Maatras, it would have been said as just Adi Thaalam, nothing about the Nadai aspect. Very education posts. Thank you so much. Please pour in more of such brilliant findings.

[jaiganes]

indha gum sum gummayum siththa analyze pannungo skr

[tvsankar]

kola kiliyae kola kiliyae


http://thiraipaadal.com/album.php?ALBID=ALBIRR00251&lang=en

ethana type beats.......... Great.....................