DO WE CONSIDER GOD AS HUMAN

[nilavupriyan]

Why do we say mantras in sanskrit.....aint this degrading GOD...AS THOUGH GOD CAN ONLY UNDERSTAND SANSKRIT.....!

Why do we need to temple to pray GOD....a person who thinks GOD is omnipresent will do this???

we are restricting GOD according our principles... :roll:

[pradheep]

Why do we say mantras in sanskrit.....aint this degrading GOD...AS THOUGH GOD CAN ONLY UNDERSTAND SANSKRIT.....!

God is not an outside person listening to the Mantras. God is only in us as pure Consciousness. In Sanskrit the musical sounds helps the mind to wander less and so helps to transcend to pure awareness.

In school children learn alphabets when given in musical form and in pattern form than in abstract form. A for apple, B for boy C for Cat. When they see the symbols they retain the concept faster than just teachign A B C. Then If we rhyme ABCD.....in musical form the children graps faster. Similarly we cannot understand what God is and so symbols are used. Mantras are musical and so they help to retain your mind in the present for few seconds. Just do a simple test. Watch whether you can keep your mind focussed on just one thought. Within few minutes it will wander. Do mantra chanting in Sanskrit and in English and see how your mind behaves.


Why do we need to temple to pray GOD....a person who thinks GOD is omnipresent will do this???

Knowledge is everywhere, or in other words knowledge in books are every where , but then why do we go to school?. Because in school you learn knowledge through a certain discipiline and also learn the discipline of Mind. Same way, though God is everywhere including in us and then we go to a temple, because it is a place to discipline our minds and trascend to pure awareness. If one can do that by one's own self there is no need for temple, like some child who can do self study need not go to school.



we are restricting GOD according our principles.

God is not restricted and no one can restrict it. Our minds are restricted and blocked in concepts. We have to free the mind from concepts.

[Rohit]

There is no God that is sitting and creating, such a God does not exist.
Meditation is not sitting with eyes' closed and seeing(creating) colourful lights (of Brahman/Atman/Self).
Of course, as far as it goes for our dear friend Pradheep, meditation is nothing but sitting with eyes closed and creating Brahman/Atman/Self, which does not exist.

:D :thumbsup:

[pradheep]

Rohit you are the Fox which called the grapes "Sour" because it did not get it. May be some time later you will get it. Till then you can stick on to the "Karma" thread (you are bound -struck there).

[Rohit]

Dear Pradheep your Egocentric belief is not at all the reality; and I will definitely make sure that you grasp that Ultimate Truth without any delusions. And this stays an open challenge; just tell me when you are ready to face that challenge.

:D :) :thumbsup:

[pradheep]

Dear Rohit

when you cannot answer one scientific proof of that "big bang theory came from nothing" instead a plasma soup of energy or singularity, then what is the challenge you can put forward to me. I am not asking you to meditate which your frustrating mind will find it difficult. I am asking you to read scientific information and atleast get some sense to you.

[Rohit]

O.K my Egocentric friend Pradheep. However, this means that you have declined to accept the true challenge.

That is perfectly fine with me as long as you don't accept the challenge.

I know the attitudes such as of yours that haven't stopped the spread of fallacies of Egocentric belief that you are desperate to cling onto, even when it is crashed into pieces countless times.

:D :) :thumbsup:

[bingleguy]

we are restricting GOD according our principles... :roll:

:-) are we ready enough to lay down principles of life.... fine, if ys, tell me how many things go according to our wish, according to our plan, according to our liking :-)

[Rohit]

tell me how many things go according to our wish, according to our plan, according to our liking :-)Definitely poor Pradheep would be the first one who would complain about him turning into the Milking Cow against his wish.
:D :) :thumbsup:

[avii]

nilavupriyan

i sometimes ask myself the same questions , however i have come to realise that god is , as pradheep says " only in us as pure Consciousness" we do not chant mantras and pray to god in temples,for god to recieve it, but to train our minds to stay focused and to make it easier for us to concentrate on god. at home there may be too much distractions but at the temple, everywhere you look is a statue or picture of a diety.

also the whole atmosphere or the temple is different ,stress free, calm and one can even feel the difference , from praying elsewhere

[Hulkster]

One mistake many humans make is they think that a truth is complicated. Same way applies for GOD where people believe he has to be worshipped by a defined praying pose or chant his name through mantras. The actual thing is very simple.

What GOD told humans when they wanted to worship him was just to think of him and that was enough. But people made it complicated by creating idols of him which he did not ask and then moving on to temples...creating rules for how to pray to him in temples and then of course vedas etc etc.

People think GOD has to be worshipped by all these mantras,idolic forms and ceremonies. If i can live successfully by just thinking of GOD without even following such practices..it shows how flawed human beliefs are.

1) GOD does not need a temple to pray to..you can pray to him from anywhere...and there is no need to pray to him using complicated verses or poses.
2) GOD never asked for a religion...all he asked us to do was to treat each other as brothers and sisters and do no harm to anybody. And what did we do? just look at the current situation now.
3) Every human will face death and there is no sort of elevation or moksha...all humans are treated equally.

In fact when you look at it neutrally and logically...it is very simple and straightforward..its just that humans have complicated it so much that we think there is some sort of method. :cry2:

Even the state of meditation is nothing but thinking about GOD(worshipping) for a very long time. That is why the relaxation and presence. It is not bringing out the inner self or GOD in you. It is you communicating with GOD. It is as simple as that.

And life which is touted to be complicated is also very simple as well. Only your birth and death is decided...in between is decided by you only...you choose your lifepath and you choose your destiny.

As for Sanskrit and other languages..that even GOD did not ask for...in fact humans could have stopped with one language...but due to them migrating to other parts of the world they started creating their own languages and thus so much. If you trace down the origin of all the races you notice that they have only one common ancestor and spoke one language only...it is only due to the migration and the body structure adapting to the places they migrated to that made them create the identity called "race" and language.

There are many flaws in religions and other human beliefs that if you really look at them throughly...you will get shocked at how humans have defined their own "rules". :cry:

[pradheep]

Only your birth and death is decided...in between is decided by you only...you choose your lifepath and you choose your destiny.

Dear friend,
That is correct. One more addition, even your own birth and death is your own choice, only thing people are not aware of it.


What GOD told humans when they wanted to worship him was just to think of him and that was enough.

There is no "God" that told humans to worship. Worshipping is not for God sake it is for one's own Self. God does not get "charged" by the crying prayers. Whether one prays to God or not , things happen in the way they think their thoughts.

Even the state of meditation is nothing but thinking about GOD(worshipping) for a very long time.

Meditation is not worshipping God for a long time. Meditation is a technique to watch the thoughts.

[pradheep]

[tscii:356d06ef38]There are 8 types of worship according to Hindu dharma saastra.

1. Sravanam : Listening to good keerthans, manthras, prayer, naama japa, listening to stories and puranaas which are known as sravana – listening ( remember your ears)

2. Darsanam : Seeing the picture of divine power, nature, all living and non living being realizing that, the divine power exist in that. Going to temple, seeing great scholars and avathaars and also seeing all the divine people who came to the earth for serving the people as god’s creations. This is darsanam ( remember your eyes)

3. Keerthanam : Chanting manthras, keethanas, namaas, telling stories, giving upadesas, guiding people, appreciating good actions, and satkarmaas, are all known as keerthanas ( Remember your tongue)

4. Smaranam: Remembering the divine power, the guiding force existing in all the 1.6 million type of animals, 4 lakhs type of plants 80, 000 type of trees and one million types of micro organisms. Remembering that we are only the tools in the hands of the divine power. Remembering that every second, we are under the guidance of the divine power. That is smarana ( remember your mind)

5. Archanam : offering the flowers, manthras, fruits, leaves, etc ( whatever you have a part of that) to god is archana. Even thinking that you are doing archana is also archana

6. Vandanam : Bowing the head, saluting and doing the namaskaara to god and elders, scholars, gurus, parents, athithies, all include in this vandana ( Remember your hands)

7. Sevanam : Serving the deserving people, animals and all living beings as your own family members and implementing the applied spirituality principles of Lokaa: samasthaa: sukhino Bhavanthu . Serving the aged, orphans, sick, hungry, people and animals. Nara seva is narayana seva says our Rishies ( Remember all your karmendriyaas)

8. Samarpanam: What ever we have offering to the deserving people (one part/ share ) that is samarpanam. Samarpanam has to be done with a good intention and selfless vision. In India we have annadaanam, vastra daanam, netra daanam, bhoo daanam, koopa daanam, and so on which all means the samarpanam to the deserving people.

(9. Some time paada sevanam is also included in the above method of worship, in which helping the people without considering the linguistic/ regional/ religious/ age/ gender/ criteria of the people. Those who are serving the the people are known as avatharas. In India there are avatharas even today who are doing their best to serve the people in Gujarath and every costal regions when the Earthquake and Sunami hit. They served people directly and indirectly in Lanka, USA, Bangladesh, and in many other countries without any selfish motives – hence they are known as avatharas).

www.IISH.org[/tscii:356d06ef38]

[bulb_mani]

God is first of all a word derived from the Almighty that the people of Biblical period and its followers believed in. To monotheists, God is the deity believed to be the supreme reality.

The origin can be Judaism. If u guys are Hindus i think u have nothing to do with God.

In my opinion the portrayal of the ALMIGHTY as someone who listens to our woes and solves it .. all crap. Dont believe in the dumb propaganda.

There is nothing as such a superpower.

If we can explain the actions-reactions of nature the game of religion and God ends.

The wonders are in nature and not in the imaginary God...

God and Religion are something founded when the first scoundrel met the first fool

Hence God is Faith + Fear and nothing to do with Fact. :D

[Rohit]

God and Religion are something founded when the first scoundrel met the first fool And surprisingly, there is no shortage of both even today :!:

[avii]

i really am in total disbelief . someone once said that the greatest trick the devil ever did was to fool man into thinking he does not exist. many people i know belive the devil exist but not god .

maya is really a powerful devi if she has the
power to make man give up god ; the goal in life , the truth; and accept man made theories about "facts"

[avii]

this is why i so love the movie matrix as it clearly explains maya and liberation .

[Rohit]

........Avii, this is completely unwarranted and utterly false analogy; and therefore, the situation demands complete withdrawal of such heedless comments, combined with a gentleman’s apology. Will you please do that, Avii?

That is why I often say that if anyone who is incapable of grasping what I post, they should keep silence and should never respond to the propositions that they do not understand.

Nonetheless, the one, who himself is under the deep spell, thinks the entire world is under the same spell. Well, nothing is more powerful than such self-deceptions. :) :thumbsup:

[avii]

to rohit ,
i apoligise , i should not have singled you out .

[bulb_mani]

So we've seen a theist ... atheist.. now we have avii a SATANIST :lol: :lol:

GOD --> Bible Terminology [ english word generalised for JEHOVAH ] if ur not Christian it doesnt hold good :lol:

[pradheep]

In my opinion the portrayal of the ALMIGHTY as someone who listens to our woes and solves it .. all crap.

You are correct Bulb. There is no one other than the "Self" that listens and solves our problems. Most of the prayers are silent and done eyes closed. So where is the prayer addressed to?. It is only to the Self.
Ignorance of people because of their attachment to their body and possessions make them ignorant. All spiritual leaders teach the same truth but attachment in the form of politics make them as religion.

[nilavupriyan]

In my opinion the portrayal of the ALMIGHTY as someone who listens to our woes and solves it .. all crap.

You are correct Bulb. There is no one other than the "Self" that listens and solves our problems. Most of the prayers are silent and done eyes closed. So where is the prayer addressed to?. It is only to the Self.
Ignorance of people because of their attachment to their body and possessions make them ignorant. All spiritual leaders teach the same truth but attachment in the form of politics make them as religion.

total confees...what abt the various avatars of Lord...if Lord is completely conciousness

[Rohit]

The only conclusion that can be drawn without any reasonable doubt is, the confusion (ignorance) itself is eternal. That is all there is to it, nothing more, nothing less.

For example:

Lord Krishna is accepted as the Supreme Person of Godhead not only by himself but also by the authorities like Narada, Asita, Devala, and Vyasadev.

Out of the five basic subject matters in Bhagavad-Gita, it is established that Krishna, the supreme godhead, the supreme controller is the greatest of all.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am the father of this universe, the mother, the supporter and the grandsire. I am the object of knowledge, the purifier and the syllable om. I am also the Rg, the Sama and the Yajur Vedas. - Ch.9 text 17

Those who study the Vedas and drink the soma juice, seeking the heavenly planets, worship me indirectly. Purified of sinful reactions, they take birth on the pious, heavenly planet of Indra, where they enjoy godly delight. - Ch.9 text 20

I am the only enjoyer and master of all sacrifices. Therefore, those who do not recognise my true nature, fall down. - Ch.9 text 24

To those who are constantly devoted to serving me with love, I give the undersanding by which they can come to me. - Ch.10 text 10.

To show them special mercy, I dwell in their hearts, destroy with the shining lamp of knowledge the darkness born of ignorance. - Ch.10 text 11

Source:
Bhagavad-Gita as it is - By A.C. Bhaktivedanta Sami Prabhupada.

:D :) :thumbsup:

[bulb_mani]

In my opinion the portrayal of the ALMIGHTY as someone who listens to our woes and solves it .. all crap.

You are correct Bulb. There is no one other than the "Self" that listens and solves our problems. Most of the prayers are silent and done eyes closed. So where is the prayer addressed to?. It is only to the Self.
Ignorance of people because of their attachment to their body and possessions make them ignorant. All spiritual leaders teach the same truth but attachment in the form of politics make them as religion.

total confees...what abt the various avatars of Lord...if Lord is completely conciousness

No avatar has or had proof of existence :huh:

See in case of abrahamic religions they say first man was adam and first woman EVE. But then according to their scriptures they had 2 sons!!! Then how come we evolved without incest?? :oops: and they never explain it sensibly :lol:

In Hindu mythology they say there were many avathars... whats the purpose of AVATAR? U can get the job done in one go if ur almighty!!! :?

this almighty/God is MAN's first invention coz at that time these fellas thought RAIN came from GOD , LIGHT from GOD, EARTH was flat and all rubbish... u cant find a scripture written by these men that is in harmony with science....

When gallileo said EARTH was round nobody believed... but now whats the truth? ??

When someone cant explain the truth they invent this imaginary being who listens and provides everything... which actually doesnt.

Ive got an article as to why the MIND produces the concept of GOD... i shall post the link once i retrieve it back.. :P

[pradheep]

No avatar has or had proof of existence Huh?!

If avatar and God is not understood it does not makes sense. God is not a person sitting in the clouds and controlling everything. There is nothing that is not God. Everything is only God. That is why in Indian tradition a barber worships his scissors before doing his job. What that means is that he sees God in the form of action (work or profession). You would see that advaitic concept ingrained in the culture. All this to be aware of the Self, which is infact God.

Avatar is an individual who realizes the Self at a very young age and lives the life expressing the Self.

Krishna is considered an avatar who lived to the above criteria. In his Bagavhad Gita his usage of "I" is not the normal usage of the Ego -"I". He refers to the Self as "I". Without the understanding whole Gita would be meaningless.


See in case of a brahamic religions they say first man was adam and first woman EVE. But then according to their scriptures they had 2 sons!!!

Every religion has mythology to explain the Truth about Self, which is very difficult to understand. It needs the purification of the Mind (Ego). In chrisitanity the mythology is misunderstood without the clear understanding of the intended meaning. If you want I can explain it.



In Hindu mythology they say there were many avathars... whats the purpose of AVATAR? U can get the job done in one go if ur almighty!!! Confused.

Avathars are meant for helping mankind to realize the Self. When people forget Self, they come to remind. I will write more if you want to understand more.


this almighty/God is MAN's first invention coz at that time these fellas thought RAIN came from GOD , LIGHT from GOD, EARTH was flat and all rubbish... u cant find a scripture written by these men that is in harmony with science....

All this confusion was in the west. In east it is called boo-loga (boo means round. Sun travelled in a chariot of seven horses with the green horse in middle. This shows the colors of light.


When gallileo said EARTH was round nobody believed... but now whats the truth? ??
Yes for the western everything has to be re-searched. Not for the east.


When someone cant explain the truth they invent this imaginary being who listens and provides everything... which actually doesnt.

yes such a imaginary being does not exist.


Ive got an article as to why the MIND produces the concept of GOD... i shall post the link once i retrieve it back.. Razz

yes please, please post, we will discuss.

[nilavupriyan]

SO AVATARS ARE HUMAN BEINGS WHO EXPERIENCED THE SELF????

whenever aneedhi arises I will come...what does this sentence mean...a super force will come to land..right?

it means GOD is someone external or it also mean something related to self

[pradheep]

whenever aneedhi arises I will come...what does this sentence mean...a super force will come to land..right?


Dear Niluvupriyan
My thoughts determine my actions, my life primarily. Next it effects my family members and then like ripple it spreads to the society and the whole universe.

(The word "My" applies to every individual and not to "pradheep").

But there are other individuals who also think thoughts and do actions.

So sum total of thoughts of individual determines the outcome of the action of a family, a street, a city , a country and finally the globe.

Let us take Krishna as an example. His mother's thoughts in pregnancy is what moulded krishna's character, primarily. She was influenced also by her husband , by other people who wanted to see the end of the tyranical rule of Kamsa.

All that thoughts added up to Krishna. Krishna is the reflection of thoughts who sought freedom both externally and internally.

So collective thoughts when desire things will happen. The whole world is as we collectively think of. How powerful the collective thought will determine the resulting action.

But unfortunately why evil (bad) dominates?. Evil or bad thinkers think very strongly than the one who thinks good. Also the number of people thinking good for others is usually less than those thinking good for others. Only when the pressure is more people think to do good collectively and only then the force gathers. A powerful mind to gather them is also needed.

Look at all revolutions, (for example) like Russian revolution, French revolution or the Indian independence. It took only few people with the evil nature to get into power. But it takes several years for good people to harness the power to overthrow the evil guys.

The bad guys are only few in number but their power of mind is so strong that they can completely keep thousands of people under their control. Now for overthrowing these bad people the good people whose takes time to harness power takes time and energy. A powerful leader will help them in accomplishing the task.

Who can be a great leader?. A leader is not one with empty talks. He should be an ideal and only he can inspire good in others. He should be able to kindle the good in others and not merely find fault.

The leaders of French and Russian revolution and Indian independence were led by such great leaders who were not selfish. They have transcended their Ego (body mind complex). Ego is full of fear, and once some one who has transcended that will have no fear to give up their body for a good cause.

That leader having transcended the Ego attachment of the body, then based on their ability to realise the Self will be known accordingly.

For example, the leaders of French Revolution or Russian or Chinese revolution are not called Avatars or Mahatmas, but called as great Hero's.

Gandhi brought a revolution and gained independence and was called Mahatma because he had more insight on the Self.

Krishna had realized the Self as a perfect human and so he is called an avatar.

Such avatars are rare and they come whenever and wherever there is total chaos and where lot of people wish for some help. Then it a mother who brings such a child, an avatar. That is the power of women. All great men are given birth by powerful women.
That is why in Tamil literature women who gave birth to great men were worshipped and highly respected. That is a great culture.

Each one of us are small drops in that collective thinking. All the like minds join and the outpout of the world will the the sum total force of that collective thinking.

That collective force of good is the "I" that Krishna says.

This is why Krishna says that whenever aneedhi comes I will come.

[Rohit]

Since ignorance is eternal, omnipresent and immortal, it ceaselessly appears everywhere, recapitulating various avataras of the same Personal God - Krishna. Or is it? Perhaps it was Vishnu! Never mind, whatever it was, it didn't matter even when it was invented for the first time, it doesn't matter even now and it shall not matter in the future either as it never existed in the first place. :thumbsup:

In the Caitanya-caritamrta of Krishna-dasa Kaviraja, the following verse (Madhya 20.263-264) summarises the principles of incarnation:

srsti-hetu yei murti prapance avatare
sei isvara-murti 'avatatra' nama dhare |

mayatita paravyome sabara avasthana
visve avataidhre 'avatra' nama ||

"The avatara or incarnation of Godhead, descends from the Kingdom of God for material manifestation. And particular form of the Personality of Godhead who so descends is called an incarnation or avatara. Such incarnations are situated in the spiritual world, the Kingdom of God. When they descend to the material creation, they assume the name avatara."

There are various kinds of avataras, such as purus-avataras, gunavataras, lila-avataras, sakty-avesa avataras, manav avataras and yug-avataras - all apppearing on schedule all over the universe. But Lord Krishna is the Primeval Lord, the fountain head of all avatara. Lord Krishna descends for specific purpose of mitigating enxieties of pure devotees, who are anxious to see Him in His original Vrndavana pastimes.

The Lord Krishna says that He incarnates also as Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu, who spread the worship of Krishna by the sankirtana movement. - Ch.4 text 8

Lord Buddha is also the incarnation of Krishna who appeared when materialism was rampant and materialists were using the pretext of the authority of the Vedas. Lord Buddha came to stop all this nonsense - Ch.4 text 7

Source:
Bhagavad-Gita as it is - By A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course, Buddha stopped all that nonsense, but not as an avtara but as the first enlightened human being, who ditched the "Atman/Soul/Self" not only as a heedless concept ever formulated by the ignorant but also as a dangerous delusion/illusion, which is a serious hindrance in the path of enlightenment of Nirvana.

Anyway, most of the teachings in Bhagavad-Gita are a plagiarised imitation of the teachings of Buddha; in where the concept of the 'Atman/Self/Supersoul' and the associated terminology, concepts and ideas are either heedlessly, wishfully or sentimentally inserted in place of what were otherwise used by Buddha as consciousness (as arising from the interdependent interactions of the four aggregates - interdependent origination - http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?t=8212&start=105), mind etc. to explain the path of enlightenment and Nirvana.

:D :) :thumbsup:

[pradheep]

Anyway, most of the teachings in Bhagavad-Gita are a plagiarised imitation of the teachings of Buddha; in where the concept of the 'Atman/Self/Supersoul' ......

My dear friend
May you live in peace with this belief.

It doesnt matter whether Gita is a plagiarised imitation, because after all Buddha's Atma is the same as krishna's Atma and both are one and the Same at Atmic level. You are again telling the Truth that Buddha and Krishna are not wrong because they are talking the same truth and one has plagiarised the other. Good that is what i have been telling that all speak the same "Truth".

[Rohit]

Buddha talks the absolute and ultimate "Truth" of non-Atman/Self/Soul - that is, the reality is devoid of any such permanent, intrinsic essence, while the imaginary Krishna is made to distort that Ultimate "Truth" through heedless and selfish plagiarisation. Therefore, the both do not and cannot speak the same, as they are mutually exclusive of each other, I am afraid my friends.

:D :) :thumbsup:

[pradheep]

If A and B have same concepts and C contradicts both A and B, then we can say A plagiarised B or vice versa. But we cannot say A plagiarised C. Either A and B should be different or A did not plagiarise B.

[Rohit]

First of all, if there is anything that contradicts, it only contradicts the premise of A. This completely nullifies every argument for A.

Anyway, the following logical construction shall do the remaining job, if at all necessary, which is not, only if the above proposition is grasped correctly.

If A and B have different and mutually exclusive premises; and if B has used its own premise to explain S coherently and correspondingly, while A just copied the explanation of S as formulated by B, while A is thoughtlessly contradicting its own premise; then A and B can be said to have same concepts (explanations); but only B's explanation can be said to be authentic while A's explanation remains a plagiarised version of B, only constituting the fallacy of non sequitur, whereby the conclusion does not follow from the premise and the premises are irrelevant to the conclusion. Also, A witlessly uses various other forms of fallacies; such as, fallacy of affirmation of the consequent, fallacy of bifurcation, fallacy of false dichotomy, fallacy of converting the conditionals, fallacy of division, fallacy of extended analogy, fallacy of presupposition and so many other froms, in order to reduce the grievous dissonance experienced from the unpleasant situations arising from the stated plagiarism.

:D :) :thumbsup:

[goodsense]

Rohit,

Your empticons are always constant; never changes. A bit unusual. Or is it that you just like those selections of emoticons. :) :wink: :lol:

[avii]

to goodsense
how true !!!!!!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :thumbsup: :D

[Rohit]

Rohit,

Your emoticons are always constant; never changes.
Simply because that is how I am.

I am happy when I present myself with specific views. I smile as a gesture of goodwill. And I use the thumbs-up sign when I am sure of the irrefutability of my views/assertions. Since, there is nothing that changes that state, I continue to use those emoticons. :)


A bit unusual.
Yes! Since, only a few can achieve such perfection. :)


Or is it that you just like those selections of emoticons?
No, I just don't use them because I like them; but I use them as explained above. :)

I hope this should settle-down the emotional sedition that you, avii or anyone else might be experiencing when they see these emoticons.

:D :) :thumbsup:

[bulb_mani]

Guys im posting the article titled " How Brain Creates God" .. since its a long one i will post as parts...

[bulb_mani]

HOW THE BRAIN ‘CREATES’ GOD

The Emerging Science of Neurotheology

Iona Miller, Asklepia Foundation, 2003

“The most beautiful emotion we can experience is the mystical. It is the sower of all true art and science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger . . . is as good as dead.” --Albert Einstein


The Great Unknown

Imagine one of our ancient ancestors, suddenly stricken by illness or a near-fatal accident. Hovering near the brink of death, an ordinary person suddenly finds him or herself locked in an immersive visionary experience of shadowy figures, muted voices and blinding luminescence.

The cosmos opens its enfolding arms and infinity spreads out in a timeless panoply that dissolves all fear, all separation from the Divine. Fear of death vanishes in a comforting flood of bliss, peace and dazzling light – the ultimate ‘holy’ connection. Overwhelming conviction arises that this is the more fundamental Reality. The welcoming gates of a personal heaven open…

Suddenly back in the body, returned to ordinary reality, one is left to interpret that transcendent experience to oneself and others. This near-death experience may not have resulted in physical demise, but it has led to the death of the old self – the personal self -- and the rebirth, rapture, or resurrection of the soul or spirit. It brings a surge of emotions, conviction and even transformation in its wake. The soul has taken a journey from which one cannot return the same.

A descent into psychobiological hell can lead to a transcendent journey toward Heaven…or perhaps the yawning abyss of the Void. Shamans, priests, prophets, mystics, and gurus arose to show the Way of navigating these nether regions, of finding healing, the eternal moment, a peaceful heart, and unity.

Our human progenitors had to directly confront existential issues of survival, adaptation, stress, mating, birth, loss, and death. They gradually developed stories about the basics of life – social, physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual existence. They created myths, beliefs about creation and our creation to give meaning to life. They developed rituals, ceremonies, and practices to heal body and mind, mark life passages, and placate forces beyond their control. These accounted for their origins as well as voices, visions and experiences that seemed to come from the great Beyond.

The brain is hard-wired for mystical experiences to modify the threat of our hostile existential reality (Alper). Metaphysical explanations developed for the essentially unknowable, for sudden and irresistible seizures of ecstasy. Some of these accounts were more sophisticated than others depending on their cultural background, but all shared a common core by defining the mystery of the relationship between mankind and the Unknown. It might be called a peak experience, spirit possession, epiphany, religious rapture, nirvana, satori, shaktiput, clear light, or illumination. The difference is only one of degrees of absorption, of fulfillment.

The god-experience is a process, a subjective perception, rather than an objectively provable reality. Distractions cease, replaced by the direct impact of oceanic expansion, sudden insight, childlike wonder, ecstatic exaltation above bodily and personal existence, dissolution in a timeless moment, fusion, gnosis.

It is direct perception coupled with high emotion and deep realization of what appears to be ultimate truth. It rips away the veil of illusion, revealing the pure ground state of our existence without any emotional, mental, or belief filters. Left with only pure awareness, the natural mind is finally free of earthly trappings. Bathed in emotions of joy, assurance and salvation, Cosmos becomes a living presence. Immortality is sensed, so fear of death vanishes.

Many called that numinous mystery God. In some sense, religion is a reaction to what actually is. But to many, when it comes to their religion, those are fighting words – for theirs is the true way, the only way. Heaven on Earth cannot be achieved so long as those two realms are separated. God comes down to earth in our own psychophysiology, dwelling within us.

Programmed for God?

Neurotheology is the marriage of brain science and theology, which systematically studies the relationship of God and the universe. Religion is the expression of theological attitudes and actions. Tradition says God created the heavens and earth, and God created man in his own image.

But did God create man and the brain, or does the brain create God? Revelation is the act of God manifesting, disclosing himself, or communicating truth to the mind. These subjective experiences are the basis of mysticism. Perhaps God hid mankind’s spirituality where we would least expect it and be least likely to look – within ourselves.

The religious element of our nature is just as universal as the rational or social one. Could altering brain chemistry by playing some visual and pleasure circuits, while quieting those governing self-image, cognition, orientation, and time sequencing give rise to a transcendental bliss, a god-experience? Can they give rise to the electrochemical supercharge described as kundalini, the serpent power that rises up the spine in illumination? How can we journey along the continuum from pleasure to enthusiasm, to joy, ecstasy and enlightenment?

This is the question posed by both theistic and non-believing scientists alike, in an attempt to comprehend our spiritual urge. Religious division is still the global root of conflict in the modern world. Even within ourselves we can experience crises of personal faith, as our worldly outlook vies with our spiritual beliefs. Most religions or spiritual practices have a ‘salvivic” value – they “save” us from the banality of human limitation and limitless or meaningless suffering, lifting us up and often conferring a glimpse of the infinite, the Absolute.

In his 1962 utopian novel, Island, Aldous Huxley coined the term neurotheology to describe the territory where human “wetware” interfaces with the divine. Since then it has come to mean the emergent field that describes the neurological phenomena that underlie classical mystical experiences from all spiritual practices. It seems our nervous systems are “pre-programmed” to experience a variety of religious or spiritual experiences. We can journey within and explore our inner world, just as we can the outer world.

However, this human study of the phenomenology of the God-experience doesn’t reductively negate the possibly of a divine creative force. Rather, this transdisciplinarian science simply seeks to describe the mechanisms involved in that process. It explores how the divine is translated into the human realm, from the archetypal to the material world. It combines aspects of religion, psychology, and neurology. This new paradigm synthesizes the truths of both science and religion – giving birth to “neuroshamanism.”

Our “God-program” is the means through which humans have traditionally interpreted the meaning of major life passages such as stress, birth, identity, aging, death, and opening to a sense of infinity. It bears heavily on our image of our Self, our relationship with others, and our place in the cosmos and world. It is the source of our faith and the ground of our beliefs. Religious dogma has been created over eons to interpret or account for these dramatic personal encounters with spirit.

Taxonomies of religious experience have been created in anthropology, sociology, psychology, and religious studies. They form maps of the territory of spiritual experience from shamanism, to artistic expression and all forms of creativity including transcendent states of consciousness (Gowan; Tart; Grof; Wilber). But as mystics and scholars both admonish, “The map is not the territory.”

A spectrum or continuum of divine interplay is available as flow states induced through trance, creativity, and meditation. But knowing about them is not the same as direct experience of those states, purposefully induced or spontaneous. The former is a conceptualization, while the later is a grace, an epiphany. These states range from spirit possession to simple communion and nature-awe, to loss of self in awesome unitive cosmic consciousness.

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The God Program

Belief and biology are entwined like mind and matter, like the twin serpents of the Caduceus, which represents enlightenment. Neurology, ritual and religion all join in what psychologist Carl Jung (pioneer of the collective unconscious) called a Mysterium Coniunctionis, or Royal Marriage with the divine. The soul becomes lost in the Self; all duality is erased.

We have a natural human capacity for spiritual experience, just as we have one for comprehension of language or mathematics. Transpersonal experience, myth, ritual, morals and ethics are undergird by a comprehensive religious ecology. The cognized environment is the stage of experience. Networks of neurophysiological structures orchestrate the play on the stage. Intricate electromagnetic and biochemical mechanisms underlie human ritual, myth, mysticism, and religious phenomena.

Whether God exists as an overarching cosmic entity or not, there are certain mechanisms in the brain which mankind has harnessed over thousands of years to facilitate the process of non-ordinary experience. They all manipulate the body’s nervous system either by over- or under-stimulation of the sympathetic and parasympathetic systems of arousal. They lead us toward seeing, hearing, touching and feeling the Lord in an experiential, rather than conceptual way that culminates in fusion.

Biologically, heavenly states are dependent on the limbic system or emotional part of the brain, and hormonal secretions. Mystical states are not fantasies, delusions or intangible events – they are the end result of complex chemical and neurological processes. They begin with instinctive awe and indefinable thrills, floating sensations, and perhaps spiritual hunger.

Ego-death can occur when the hyperactive “I” submits or gives in to sensory overload, which overwhelms it. Hypoarousal leads to a characteristic silencing of the mind or emptying when the ego voluntarily submits to unification of subject and object, of “I” and Self. Cortical and subcortical activity become indistinguishably merged. There is no separate “I” left to perceive objective reality. Thus, dualism is paradoxically obliterated in the maximal excitation of both the hyper- and hypo-arousal systems.

Because they produce personal euphoria and creative inspiration, these initial states are common to poets, artists, and mystics. But mystics tell us these ecstasies may be nothing more than overloading of the emotional channels. Ecstasy is a desire for contact, a striving after union. Entering these regions in full consciousness indicates greater spiritual maturity. Stabilizing them at the personality level means the phase of emergence is over and enlightenment becomes a steady state. The neurological changes have become integrated and permanent.

The oldest shamanic techniques include fasting, drumming, trance dancing, inner journeys, and mind-altering plants. The relaxation techniques for transcendence include meditation, imagery, prayer, postures, and chanting. All of them work on the physiology to change the chemistry of the mind/body and induce oceanic ecstasies that are either all-consuming or ultimately serene.

Any constant, rhythmic stimulus to the central nervous system will induce a trance-state and accompanying “high.” Driving the system toward either polarity of arousal or quiescence leads to a paradoxical reversal into its opposite, much like sexual arousal leads to post-orgasmic afterglow. Similarly, at some point, meditation can release an intense rush of energy and emotion, partly through the limbic system.

One methodology produces sensory overload, while the other empties the sensory field by withdrawing attention from sensory signals. There may be sensory melding – a phenomenon called synesthesia – where one can “see” music, or “taste “colors.”

When the mind/body is either exhausted or emptied of external input, the mind is free to process the endless loops of its own manifestation, its own internal processes. Fear and shame give way to grace, a sense of Presence, perception of sanctity, response to realization of the divine. Time, space and the separate ego seem suspended or transcended in the experience of cosmic consciousness. All is One. Beyond the unity experience is the nondual experience of the Void.

If perceptual intake is restricted or expanded beyond certain limits, the normal state of consciousness gives way to altered states, each of which has certain characteristics. This universal experience has nine typical qualities: 1) unity, 2) transformation of space and time, 3) deeply felt positive mood, 4) sacredness, 5) objectivity and reality, 6) paradoxicality, 7) alleged ineffability, 8) transiency, and 9) persisting positive changes in subsequent behavior. A direct and unmediated encounter with the source level of reality is felt as Holy, Awful, Ultimate and Ineffable. (Gowan, 1976).

Re-creational Ego Death

The alchemists sought eternal life by consuming the panacea (cure all), universal medicine, the elixir vitae. Paracelsus, the medieval alchemist and physician, said, “He who enters the kingdom of God must first enter his mother and die.” If God is the father, Nature is our mother. Death always sits on our shoulder, patiently awaiting each of us in turn. And we are acutely aware of that fact, more so as we age or experience loss and infirmity. We are self-consciously aware that we exist, and that one day we will not.

We can react to our knowledge of our own mortality with denial, pragmatism, or unshakeable faith in an afterlife, or reincarnated life. Death will come inexorably in any event at our journey’s end. We cannot directly know the nature of that experience until we have gone through it. But even before physical death, the soul can die gradually to outward things; the self is release and transcended. When the senses and mind stop actively functioning, the body becomes like a corpse. Ego-death mirrors the process of the near-death experience (NDE).

NDE phases include 1) subjective feeling of being dead; 2) peace and well-being; 3) disembodiment; 4) visions of material objects and events. The transcendental phase includes, 5) tunnel or dark zone; 6) evaluation of one’s past life; 7) light; 8) access to a transcendental world, entering in light; 9) encounter with other beings; 10) return to life.

Those who have been close to death, or experienced an initiatory death of the ego come back to show and tell what that indescribable experience might be like. They report pain and panic subsides in detachment from the body, bliss and contentment. Then comes entering the darkness, seeing the light, and entering that light. The same is true for mystics when they become dead to the outside world. The body is profoundly affected as breathing, heart rate, and skin conductance change.

When it is not sudden, death is a process where oxygen levels drop, carbon dioxide builds up, and neural firing rate decreases. This sequence recounts the stages of brain death -- the shutting down of sensory systems, mental dissociation, large dumps of pain-killing and euphoria-inducing endorphins and dopamine into the brain, the shut down of the visual cortex as nerve cells continue to die, and coma. Darkness descends.

Though it is a universal journey, near-death reports incorporate scenery and characters that coincide with cultural programming. For example, Tibetan Buddhists never report seeing Jesus in the “tunnel” during a near-death experience. In fact, according to the Dalai Lama, they don’t even tend to have near-death experiences, or they perceive them in completely different terms. Still, there are certain cross-cultural correlations to the process of loosening the bonds of space, time, and the ego whether death is initiatory or literal in nature:

These stages include 1). a return to the womb or unborn primal state, which happens in the death process as the sensory and visual centers shut down and we are left in the dull red glow of our fetal stage. 2). Dissolution, dispersal, dismemberment, or fragmentation loosens our ties to the sense of self, as we move beyond our sorrow, helplessness, rigidities, fear, and pain back toward the primeval unification before our ego emerged. 3). Containment of a lesser thing (personality) by a greater (pleroma).

4). Rebirth, rejuvenation, immersion in the creative energy flow, as experiential contact with the psychedelic groundstate of being floods us with nourishing sensations of well-being. 5). Purification ordeal, as we struggle with any mental resistance, conflicts and remnants of earthly attachments; karmic purging. 6). Solution of problems as any conflicts resolve in the bliss of absorption; healing. 7). Melting or softening process, of final letting go and unification of subject and object; a spiritually healing immersion in the vast ocean of deep consciousness, (Miller, 1993).

Resurrection of the “dead” in the mystical sense thus takes on new meaning. Paradoxically, it describes both the transformation to heightened awareness, the soul becoming more and more absorbed in the contemplation of God, and also the return to ordinary awareness. Rapture, the “ascent to heaven”, also has the connotation of rising to spiritual heights in the mystic experience, which lifts or elevates one from normal states of awareness.

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Mystical Circuitry

But what happens when the death process doesn’t follow through to its mortal conclusion or is merely simulated spontaneously or intentionally with meditation? The relationship between brain physiology and human behavior is notoriously difficult to understand and easy to misapply.

Obviously consciousness, subjectivity and human religious experience are not reducible merely to an explanation of neural pathways. We are accustomed to associating it with grace, mind-expansion, intuition, transcendence, ecstasy, metamorphosis and salvation.

It remains a mystery whether our hard-wiring creates the powerful God Experience, or our whether God creates our psychophysical wiring. Only soul-searching can provide any personally satisfying answer. It might seem sacrilege to some to conduct experiments in “measuring meat” to gauge spirituality. Still, this does not negate the beauty of the scientific search for truth through creativity and passion as genuine as any other artform.

Knowledge of which body parts are mobilized in this communion doesn’t detract from the experience, for the whole is so much more than the sum of its parts. Neurotheology respects both science and spirit. It is a move toward holism, not merely a reductive analysis. Natural expansive experiences occur in a wide numbers of situations, but involve common elements:

1) The attention is gripped, and perception narrowed or focused through a single event or sensation; 2) which appears to be an experience of surpassing beauty or worth; 3) in which unrealized values or relationships are suddenly or instantly emphasized; 4) resulting in the emergence of great joy and an orgiastic experience of ecstasy; 5) in which individual barriers separating the self from others or nature are broken down; 6) resulting in a release of love, confidence, or power; and 7) some kind of change in the subsequent personality, behavior or artistic product after the rapture is over. (Gowan, 1976).

Can we pinpoint what regions of the brain turn off and on during religious, visionary or extraordinary states of consciousness? Yes; scientists are using dynamic brain imaging techniques such as SPECT and functional MRI to directly view the activation of brain circuitry. We can watch both blood flow and electrical activity in real time.

The roles of the amygdala, hippocampus, temporal lobes, parietal lobe, and pineal gland are fundamental to our sense of well-being, meaningfulness, expansion from personal identity and perception of inner Light. We can now directly see how the brain correlates both external and internal stimuli and our reactions to them. Rather than ancient rituals to placate the gods, our rituals are now scientific experimental protocols.

Brain scans of a large sampling of people lost in prayer or deep meditation reveal certain common neurological readings. These correlate with religious states ranging from transcendence, to visions, to enlightenment and feelings of awe. Attention or concentration in the frontal lobes is indicated by activation in this area of the brain during meditation. In meditative states, there is an attitudinal shift and detachment from thoughts other than perhaps love of God.

Sound and Vision

Our response to religious words is mediated at the juncture of three lobes (parietal, frontal, and temporal) and governs reaction to language. The “voice of God” probably emanates from electrical activity in the temporal lobes, which are important to speech perception. Inner speech is interpreted as originating outside the self, when Broca’s area switches on.

Stress can influence our ability to determine origin of a voice. It is part of our fight-flight response, which can mobilize even when we try to relax. Unstressing phenomena can range from panic reactions, heaving sighs, excessive heat to shivers and bristling of the skin, throat constriction, watery eyes, light flashes or waves before the eyes, sudden muscular contractions, tingling sensations, and electric shocks.

The right anterior cingulate turns on whether a stimulus originates in the environment or is an auditory hallucination. A wide variety of mystical sounds have been described ranging from the buzzing of bees, to the sounds of bells, stringed instruments, thunder, distant echoes, ocean waves, wind, and muffled talk in unknown languages.

The ability to construct internal representations of sensory stimuli underlies perception and cognition. Viewed objectively, these mindscapes are perfectly concrete manifestations but also have a subjective aspect when we become aware of them. Our consciousness is experienced through our perceptions. Any individual perception of the universe can occur as an internal or external experience.

We may experience varying forms of an I-Thou dialogue along the continuum of extremely hyper- or hypo-arousal states. Sacred images are generated in the lower temporal lobe, which also responds to ritualistic use of imagery and iconography. Empathy needs a face. Fear and awesomeness originate in the amygdala. Religious emotions originate in the middle temporal lobe, generating bliss, awe, joy and other feelings of well-being, as well as a sense of Presence.

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[tscii:66dff60928]Beyond Space and Time

Einstein had a virtually mystical understanding of the nature of space and time, which he expressed in The N.Y. Times, March 29, 1972:

“A human being is a part of a whole, called by us ‘Universe.’ A part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest – a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires, and to affection for a few persons nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. Nobody is able to achieve this completely, but the striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security.”

A triple “prison” for the mystic, space, time, and personality define and specify the normal state of consciousness. Mystic ecstasy offers a glimpse of spiritual freedom, and escape from the prison of selfhood. Remaining as motionless as possible facilitates this effect. When the parietal lobes quiet down, a person first feels detachment from the tyranny of the perceptions, then an expansive oneness with the universe of cosmic unity.

Time distortion starts the personal escape from time, sign of an attempt to escape from the cocoon. Then the inner marriage between the personal and non-personal aspects of the psyche is consummated. Psychic conflicts are transcended, leaving a whole, complete being.

When the orientation area is deprived of neuronal input by gating from the hippocampus, sense of self expands. With no preferred position or direction in space, the local self dissolves in omnidirectional expansion. If one remains motionless, there is no external reference signal to orient in 3-space and no reason for this portion of the brain to activate. Continued meditation can over-drive certain other brain areas and seemingly transport us to another universe.

For a mystical experience to occur, perceptions narrow and brain regions that orient us in space and mark the distinction between self and world must go quiet. We give up the past and give up the future – we give up our defenses. All feelings cease as the self merges with the numinous element. The mind becomes tranquil, withdraws itself from all sides, becoming firmly established in the supreme Reality.

In order to feel that time, fear, and self-consciousness have dissolved, certain brain circuits must be interrupted. This includes damping activity in the fear-registering amygdala, which monitors the environment for threats. Parietal-lobe circuits that give us a sense of physical orientation and a distinction between self and world must quiet down.

The orientation area requires sensory input to do its calculations. Intense meditation blocks the brain from forming a distinction between self and world. Frontal and temporal-lobe circuits, which mark time and generate self-awareness, must disengage. When this happens, self-awareness briefly drops out and we feel like our boundaries dissolve.

The most immediate experience is that of always having been and being forever. The three illusions – space, time and personality – are obliterated in cosmic consciousness, as the soul completes its journey to its spiritual home. Human consciousness is eliminated, having been reabsorbed into the primordial essence. All becomes All without differentiation.

NeuroMagnetics

A Canadian neuropsychologist, Michael Persinger (1987) has spent years exploring the relationship of spiritual phenomena and electromagnetics with many subjects. Low intensity magnetic fields orchestrate communication between lobes of the brain, faster than biolelectrical or biochemical processes of neurons. He has developed a device, called the Octopus to test his theories.

“Underlying Persinger’s work is the conviction that anomalous electromagnetic fluctuations – produced by solar flares, seismic activity, radio and microwave transmissions, electrical devices, and other external sources or originating in the brain itself – can trigger disturbances resembling epileptic seizures. These ‘microseizures,’ he propses, generate a wide range of altered states, including religious and mystical visions, out-of-body experiences, and even alien-abduction episodes.”

“Persinger conjectures that our sense of self is ordinarily mediated by the brain’s lef hemisphere – more specifically by the left temporal lobe. When the brain is disrupted – by a head injury, epileptic seizure, stroke, drugs, psychological trauma, or external electromagnetic pulses – our left-brain may detect activity in the right hemisphere as another self, or what Persinger calls a ‘sensed presence.’ Depending on our circumstances and background, we may perceive the sensed presence as extraterrestrials, ghosts, angels, fairies, muses, demons, or God Almighty.” (Horgan)

This technoshaman with his electronic art uses solenoids in a helmet for input; a computer controls the fluctuating fields. He sends vast depolarizing waves across millions of cells, releasing all types of memories and fantasies mixed and mashed together. Long-term memory is seated in the surface of the bottom of the temporal lobes in the para hippocampal cortex, closely connected to the hippocampus. Though an atheist, he stops just short of saying the god-experience is just an electrical seizure. However, his research goal is to use his devise to trigger transcendental experiences in nonreligious people face with the fear of death. He admits there is scientific evidence that those with spiritual beliefs are better adapted and statistically healthier.

Persinger can artificially produce a wide range of anomalous experiences by driving the brain with his EM helmet and technology. He identifies the temporal lobes as the biological basis of the god-experience. Bombarding the brain with certain frequencies in certain regions produces different results. As impulses move through the temporal lobe and deep into the brain, they interfere and interact with the complex electrical patterns and neural fields.

Aimed at the amygdala, Persinger’s device produces sexual arousal. Focused on the hippocampus it produces an opiate effect without adverse side effects, other than irritation upon withdrawal. Targeting the right hemisphere temporal lobe creates a sense of a negative presence, while stimulating the left hemisphere creates a benevolent presence.

Sensed presence becomes more common until the day arrives when God’s presence is something a person feels at all times. In mystical experience language fails. Since we can’t experiences two senses of self, one is projected as other, the Beloved, either romantic or spiritual. Thus there is truth in saying that the beloved is God, and that when we love God we are loving ourselves. I and Thou are One. The other becomes the Self.

Electrical activity in the amygdala, hippocampus and temporal can ‘spill over’ into nearby structures. If it ignites the visual area, intense visions emerge. Kindling the olfactory regions leads to unique scents. Somatosensory stimulation leads to buzzing, energetic, or tingling sensations or perceptions of being lifted or floating. Language center activation produces voices, music, or noise. Long-term memory in the lower part of the temporal lobes yields interactive virtual realities, waking dreams. The thalamus is implicated in aura vision; the reticular activating system in life reviews.

New patterns spread through the limbic system, producing sensation ranging from subtle to profound. Usually there is seamless integration of past, present and future. But in déjà vu, there is too much communication between short-term and long-term memories. Then the present can feel like the past. Present perceptions are shunted through areas that process memories, and we feel we are re-living a moment stored in long-term memory. The opposite happens in jamais vu, when nothing we experience seems to have anything to do with the past. Time distortion is another experiential phenomenon stimulated with the electromagnetic gear.

The impulses can induce anything from sleep to “alien abductions”, including a profound sense of presence or the uncanny, auditory and visionary experiences, or a sense of deep meaning. He notes these experiences are tempered by the person’s learning history. God concepts are determined by verbal conditioning; perceptions are constructions. Imagery ranges from vivid landscapes to forms of living things. Sounds, smells, scenes or intense feelings all reflect areas of electrical instability.[/tscii:66dff60928]

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The Biology of the Inner Light

Illumination has been described as being blinded by the manifestation of God’s presence. This brightness has no relation to any visible light. Visionary experience, which has symbolic or religious content, may give way to this dazzling light, which is reported in eastern and western religions. No wonder it is called illumination, and it can confer a palpable glow to the person that is perceptible after the return to ordinary awareness.

Imagine suggesting the body makes it own psychedelic drug! This is just what psychiatrist Rick Strassman contends in DMT: The Spirit Molecule (2001). He asserts it is an active agent in a variety of altered states, including mystical experience. This chemical messenger links body and spirit. Pineal activation may awaken normally latent synthetic pathways.

Meditation may modulate pineal activity, eliciting a standing wave through resonance effects that affects other brain centers with both chemical and electromagnetic coordination. Resonance can be induced in the pineal using electric, magnetic, or sound energy. Such harmonization resynchronizes both hemispheres of the brain. This may result in a chain of synergetic activity resulting in the production and release of hallucinogenic compounds

If this is true, it is easy to see how much this mind-altering chemical could amplify all of the tendencies toward mystical apprehension originating in other parts of the brain, as we have described above. To explore his theory, Strassman conducted extensive testing, injecting volunteers with the powerful psychedelic, synthetic DMT. DMT is so powerful it is physically immobilizing, and produces a flood of unexpected and overwhelming visual and emotional imagery. Taking it is like an instantaneous LSD peak.

He suggests the mysterious pineal gland is implicated in the natural production of this mystic molecule, as metaphysical teachers have long claimed. The pineal has been called the spirit gland and may be the biological basis of spiritual experience. The only solitary, or unpaired gland in the brain may initiate and support a variety of altered states of consciousness.

The pineal is known to contain high levels of the enzymes and building-blocks for making DMT, and it may be secreted when inhibitory processes cease blocking its production. It may even produce other chemicals, such as beta-carbolines that magnify and prolong its effects.

The pineal sits, well-protected in the deep recesses of the brain, bathed in cerebrospinal fluid by the ventricles, the fluid-filled cavities of the brain that feed it and remove waste. It emits its secretions to the strategically surrounding emotional, visual and auditory brain centers. It helps regulate body temperature and skin coloration. It secretes the hormone melatonin. Generally, after the more imaginative period of childhood, the pineal calcifies and diminishes.

Endogenous DMT is described as the source of visionary Light in transpersonal experiences. Its primary source, the pineal, has traditionally been referred to as the Third Eye. Curiously, this gland is light sensitive and actually has a lens, cornea, and retina.

DMT production is particularly stimulated, according to Strassman in the extraordinary conditions of birth, sexual ecstasy, childbirth, extreme physical stress, near-death, psychosis, and physical death, as well as meditation. Pineal DMT may also play a significant role in dream consciousness.

“All spiritual disciplines describe quite psychedelic accounts of the transformative experiences, whose attainment motivate their practice. Blinding white light, encounters with demonic and angelic entities, ecstatic emotions, timelessness, heavenly sounds, feelings of having died and being reborn, contacting a powerful and loving presence underlying all of reality—these experiences cut across all denominations. They also are characteristic of fully psychedelic DMT experience. How might meditation evoke the pineal DMT experience?”

“Meditative techniques using sound, sight, or the mind may generate particular wave patterns whose fields induce resonance in the brain. Millennia of human trial and error have determined that certain ‘sacred’ worlds, visual images, and mental exercises exert uniquely desired effects. Such effects may occur because of the specific fields they generate within the brain. These fields cause multiple systems to vibrate and pulse at certain frequencies. We can feel or minds and bodies resonate with these spiritual exercises. Of course, the pineal gland also is buzzing at these same frequencies . . .The pineal begins to ‘vibrate’ at frequencies that weaken its multiple barriers to DMT formation.” (Strassman).

Become Your Own Technoshaman

Want to take an active role in your own spiritual life, a safe and easy mind trip? Would you like to glimpse some of the experiences outlined here? Or even just get the mental health benefits of deep relaxation and increased inner focus? Intimidated by the prospect of spending 15 to 20 years learning to meditate to attain life-enhancing benefits?

Haven’t had a near-death experience and don’t want one? Too busy to devote your life to alchemy, or spend endless years in transpersonal therapies, or too afraid to allow a “mad scientist” to zap your brain with EM frequencies, hook your brain up to a high-tech scanning machine, or inject you with psychedelic substances?

Modern technology offers an easy, “passive” alternative. Anyone can employ a safe and easy technique that automatically puts you in the “zone.” A form of “yogatronics” is available using a simple CD and headphones with input from subsonic frequencies. This audio technology creates a harmonization of the left and right hemispheres of the brain, and automatically drives the brain harmlessly into the Alpha or Theta brainwave range.

This resonance phenomenon, a form of entrainment, is called the frequency-following response, or binaural beat technology. Entrainment is the process of synchronization, where vibrations of one object will cause another to oscillate at the same rate. It works by embedding two different tones in a stereo background. Continuous tones of subtlely different frequencies (such as 100 and 108 cycles per second) are delivered to each ear independently via stereo headphones. The tones combine in a pulsing “wah wah” tone.

External rhythms can have a direct effect on the psychology and physiology of the listener. The brain effortlessly begins resonating at the same rate as the difference between the two tones, ideally in the 4-13 Hz. (Theta and Alpha) range for meditation. All you have to do is sit quietly and put on the headphones. The brain automatically responds to certain frequencies, behaving like a resonator.

You may not become immediately enlightened, but hemispheric synchronization helps with a whole host of problems stemming from abnormal hemispheric asymmetries. Problems, often resulting from stress or abuse in early life, include REM sleep problems, narcissism, addictive and self-defeating behaviors. Communication between hemispheres correlates with flashes of insight, wisdom and creativity.

Split brain experiments have shown we are of “two minds” -- one rational, linear, time-bound, and cognitive while the other is emotional, holistic, intuitive, artistic. Even when we know what we should do we do what we want. The main distinction is between thinking and feeling, objective analysis and subjective insight. Each half has its own way of knowing about our being and perceiving external reality. Either mode can lead or follow, or conflict, keeping knowledge such as traumatic memories, from the other.

The hemispheres are meant to work in concert with one another. Interactive hemispheric feedback is used to treat disorders such as post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), depression, ADD, addiction, obsessive-compulsive disorder, anxiety, and a host of other dysfunctions. Disorders of under-arousal include depression, attention-deficit disorder (ADD), chronic pain and insomnia. Overarousal includes anxiety disorders, problems getting to sleep, nightmares, ADHD, hypervigilance, impulsive behavior, anger/aggression, agitated depression, chronic nerve pain, and spasticity.

Because the brain is functionally “plastic” in nature, creating and exercising new neural pathways can retrain neural circuitry. In meditation, the halves of the brain become synchronized and exhibit nearly identical patterns of large, slow brainwaves. Rhythmic pulses can modulate collective neuronal synchrony. Then, both lobes automatically play in concert.

Rhythm regulates the entire spectrum of activation and arousal by kindling, or pulling more and more parts of the brain into the process. Disorders related to under- and over- arousal, including attentional and emotional problems, can be stabilized by self-organizing restructuring. Depressions, anxiety, worry, fear, and panic can be moderated. Stimulating neglected neural circuitry creates new pathways, improving equilibrium and long-term change, essentially “tuning” the nervous system.

There are many companies promoting this self-regulation technology, both in “active” clinical neurofeedback programs, and as “passive” home programs. Perhaps the oldest is the Monroe Institute <monroeinstitute.org>, which calls its trademarked method Hemi-Synch. Another program offered by Centerpointe Research Institute <centerpointe.com> is called Holosynch. Another variation uses light pulses from goggles to drive the process, and is marketed as Alpha-Stim <alpha-stim.com>.

[bulb_mani]

Conclusions

Are there things we should not know? We are innately geared to crave ecstasy, “escape reality,” and seek extraordinary or novel experiences on our way to wisdom. The history of mankind recounts the stages of that journey. Religions and mysticism arose from the accounts of spontaneous spiritual experiences. In shamanism, our ancestors sought them in an instinctual or animalistic way. In art, myth and ritual we sought them in a human, if narcissistic and self-expressive reactionary way.

In creativity and meditation we seek in a fully conscious way, willfully cooperating and facilitating the process not only of connecting with God, but experiencing oneself in the process of “becoming” god. The ego no longer perceives itself as a separate expression of consciousness, but as the same essence as All.

Of course, we can never fully complete that process. No one can fully embody God, but we can move toward it. The succession of conscious states is toward higher integration, not toward lower dissociation. The process of integration in growth toward positive values has the complementary virtues of being obvious in fact and transcendental in implications. It means we evolve from reactive creatures into an integrated part of the spiritual dimension.

As sociologist Eliade described, “The ideal of yoga . . . is to live in an eternal present, outside of time. The man, liberated in his life, no longer possesses a personal consciousness . . .but a witnessing consciousness, which is pure lucidity and spontaneity.” Meditation is essentially emulation of creation and practice for a lucid passing at death into the Eternal Now.

We are all capable of transcendent awareness. What we believe in becomes real in an existential sense. Paradoxically, pure consciousness both generates and is generated by the processes of the brain. Becoming soul journeyers, we can explore self and multiple worlds, transformation, and social flow.

We can all become technoshamans, using the process of altering our consciousness through spiritual technologies. Even “lesser” mystical experiences have significant implications for religion and theology. It is the nature of the mystical mind to have such experiences and they have altered religion. So, a thorough understanding of how the mind/body functions to generate them is extremely useful.

Paradoxical physiological mechanisms operate in the body under most conditions to chemically prevent the attainment of higher states of arousal on either end of the spectrum. But it is possible, with repeated exposure to the paradoxical situation to function effectively at higher levels of conjoined sympathetic and parasympathetic arousal. The brain can be “re-wired” to connect more and more areas together as links in the spiritual chain, which leads to so-called enlightenment. The brain seems to hunger for ecstasies to enhance characteristics of our normal way of being, creativity, problem-solving, spirituality, and so on.

The task of meditation is essentially letting the body fall as deeply asleep as possible while the mind remains focused. In fact, if it were not for the opposite function’s presence, even in the mystical state, we would fall asleep. The REM or dream state is similar: there is extreme cerebral excitation, even though muscular activity is inhibited. Hemispheric synchronization producing long, slow alpha and theta brainwaves with high amplitude is another factor. The deeper the meditation, the slower and stronger the waves.

The energy “rush” of meditation comes when either the arousal or quiescent state “spills over” into stimulating its complementary system. When both parts of the autonomic nervous system go online simultaneously, the limbic system goes wild with emotion, absorption and oceanic bliss. This is reflected in the gender based, male-female imagery of the kundalini serpent power and the yin and yang of the Tao.

When both systems go into maximal discharge, this neurochemical flux is subjectively perceived as Absolute Unity of Being, boundlessness, timelessness, and sacredness. Our relationship to humans, earth, and cosmos is one of a relationship to the Other. Our first formative influence is the experience of empathy. And empathy needs a face. If we find that face in our personal experience of God, who shall say nay? Beyond that lies only the yawning infinity of the Void.

[bulb_mani]

REFERENCES

Alper, Matthew ( ). The God Part of the Brain.

Andresen, Jensine (Editor). Cognitive Models and Spiritual Maps: Interdisciplinary Explorations of Religious Experience.

D’Aquili, Eugene and Newberg, Andrew ( ). The Mystical Mind: Probing the Biology of Religious Experience.

Giovannoli, Joseph et al. The Biology of Belief: How Our Biology Biases Our Beliefs and Perceptions.

Gowan, John Curtis (1975). Trance, Art, and Creativity. Buffalo, New York: Creative Education Foundation.

Grof, Stanislav (1988). The Adventure of Self-Discovery. Albany, New York: SUNY Press.

Horgan, John (2003). Rational Mysticism. New York: Houghton Mifflin Company.

Joseph, Rhawn, et al (2003). Neurotheology: Brain, Science, Spirituality, and Religious Experience.

Krippner, Stanley, Etzel Cardena, Stephen Jay Lynn [Eds.] (2000). Varieties of Anomalous Experience: Examining the Scientific Evidence. American Psychological Assn., Washington D.C.

McKinney, Laurence O. (1994). Neurotheology: Virtual Religion in the21st Century. American Instit. For Mindfulness.

Milkman, Harvey and Sunderwirth, Stanley (1987). Craving for Ecstasy: Consciousness and Chemistry of Escape. Lexington, Mass.: Lexington Books.

Miller, Iona (1993). “Chaos as the universal solvent.” Chaosophy ’93. Wilderville: Asklepia Press.

Miller, Iona (2001). “Neurotheology 101”

Newberg, Andrew and D’Aquili, Eugene (2001). Why God Won’t Go Away. New York: Ballantine Books.

Persinger, Michael A. (1987). Neuropsychological Bases of God Beliefs. New York: Praeger.

Ramachandra, Vilayanur (1998). Phantoms in the Brain.

Strassman, Rick (2001). DMT: The Spirit Molecule. Rochester, Vermont: Park St. Press.

Tart, Charles. Altered States of Consciousness.

Wilber, Ken (2000). Integral Psychology: Consciousness, Spirit, Psychology, Therapy. Boston: Shambhala.

[Rohit]

bulb_mani,

Thanks for the article "How Brain Creates God".

Those who have been close to death, or experienced an initiatory death of the ego come back to show and tell what that indescribable experience might be like. They report pain and panic subsides in detachment from the body, bliss and contentment. Then comes entering the darkness, seeing the light, and entering that light. The same is true for mystics when they become dead to the outside world. The body is profoundly affected as breathing, heart rate, and skin conductance change.

When it is not sudden, death is a process where oxygen levels drop, carbon dioxide builds up, and neural firing rate decreases. This sequence recounts the stages of brain death -- the shutting down of sensory systems, mental dissociation, large dumps of pain-killing and euphoria-inducing endorphins and dopamine into the brain, the shut down of the visual cortex as nerve cells continue to die, and coma. Darkness descends.

In fact, according to the Dalai Lama, they don’t even tend to have near-death experiences, or they perceive them in completely different terms.

But even before physical death, the soul can die gradually to outward things; the self is release and transcended. When the senses and mind stop actively functioning, the body becomes like a corpse. Ego-death mirrors the process of the near-death experience (NDE).

NDE phases include 1) subjective feeling of being dead; 2) peace and well-being; 3) disembodiment; 4) visions of material objects and events. The transcendental phase includes, 5) tunnel or dark zone; 6) evaluation of one’s past life; 7) light; 8) access to a transcendental world, entering in light; 9) encounter with other beings; 10) return to life.

When the mind/body is either exhausted or emptied of external input, the mind is free to process the endless loops of its own manifestation, its own internal processes. Fear and shame give way to grace, a sense of presence, perception of sanctity, response to realization of the divine. Time, space and the separate ego seem suspended or transcended in the experience of cosmic consciousness. All is One. Beyond the unity experience is the nondual experience of the Void.

This universal experience has nine typical qualities: 1) unity, 2) transformation of space and time, 3) deeply felt positive mood, 4) sacredness, 5) objectivity and reality, 6) paradoxicality, 7) alleged ineffability, 8) transiency, and 9) persisting positive changes in subsequent behavior.
It is quite interesting to note that the article narrates the various forms, phases and levels of consciousness either under self-driven, meditative or induced conditions of the brain and how they produce various subjective feelings and experiences, which very well confirm with what I have frequently stated earlier in various threads of this FH.

It is also interesting to note that the number of levels or phases of consciousness too ties up with what I have quoted earlier.

Overall, it is a good article for informative reading from a neuro-theological perspectives.

Thanks again! :)

[SRS]

[tscii:7a77799376]

Those who have been close to death, or experienced an initiatory death of the ego come back to show and tell what that indescribable experience might be like. They report pain and panic subsides in detachment from the body, bliss and contentment. Then comes entering the darkness, seeing the light, and entering that light. The same is true for mystics when they become dead to the outside world. The body is profoundly affected as breathing, heart rate, and skin conductance change.

[The transcendental phase includes, 5) tunnel or dark zone; 6) evaluation of one’s past life; 7) light; 8) access to a transcendental world, entering in light; 9) encounter with other beings; 10) return to life.

When the mind/body is either exhausted or emptied of external input, the mind is free to process the endless loops of its own manifestation, its own internal processes. Fear and shame give way to grace, a sense of presence, perception of sanctity, response to realization of the divine. Time, space and the separate ego seem suspended or transcended in the experience of cosmic consciousness. All is One. Beyond the unity experience is the nondual experience of the Void.

This is the whole point of yoga. Even the article mentions mystics; one does not have to wait till death/near death to experience this. Anyway, I am glad Rohit has finally affirmed that "All is One" after much grasping of straws and circular logic. :cool2:[/tscii:7a77799376]

[bulb_mani]

Ur welcome rohit :D

[Rohit]

Anyway, I am glad Rohit has finally affirmed that "All is One"
It took SRS much longer to grasp what I have always said that the universe as whole, is one evolving entity; and everything else evolves from it, which is what the 'Absolute Evolution' of the whole universe is all about.

:D :) :thumbsup:

[Rohit]

Ur welcome rohit :D
Thank you! :)

[pradheep]

[tscii:87671824a2]


“A human being is a part of a whole, called by us ‘Universe.’ A part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest – a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires, and to affection for a few persons nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty.
Thanks for this post. Where Einstein summarizes the Vedic Knowledge. He says delusion is a feeling of seperation from the rest. To be in the present (now) is transcending space time barrier. This is called "Ahamkara" or Ego.

Dear Bulb-mani
What do you conclude from the whole article, you have posted. Can you summarize your understanding in a few lines. Thanks.

[/tscii:87671824a2]

[goodsense]

Rohit wrote:

"Yes! Since, only a few can achieve such perfection".

When any kind of perfection is achieved, we as humans don't know it. We are not allowed to judge ourselves. To do otherwise, is egoism. We are of course allowed to have an opinion of ourselves (think of ourselves highly or lowly), just like our families, friends and others are allowed, all of which are important. Even when we are judged by those making decisions that affect our lives, the basis are so limited. How sound can it be? :) Both the theist and atheist would agree.

The theist believes that man is limited in knowledge and only God has full knowledge, revealed in science. The doctor and lawyer are always reading and discovering new things all the time; things never thought of before that change their previous findings/decisions. The atheist (mainly scientist) claiming there is no God, is always investigating - if there is God there is no need to investigate and discover something new and different. Therefore, what we think is absolute and right today, may change tomorrow. If there is any flaw in logic here, it clearly lies with the atheist thinking. :?:

[Rohit]

"Yes! Since, only a few can achieve such perfection".

When any kind of perfection is achieved, we as humans don't know it. We are not allowed to judge ourselves. To do otherwise, is egoism. We are of course allowed to have an opinion of ourselves (think of ourselves highly or lowly), just like our families, friends and others are allowed, all of which are important. Even when we are judged by those making decisions that affect our lives, the basis are so limited. How sound can it be? :) Both the theist and atheist would agree.

The theist believes that man is limited in knowledge and only God has full knowledge, revealed in science. The doctor and lawyer are always reading and discovering new things all the time; things never thought of before that change their previous findings/decisions. The atheist (mainly scientist) claiming there is no God, is always investigating - if there is God there is no need to investigate and discover something new and different. Therefore, what we think is absolute and right today, may change tomorrow. If there is any flaw in logic here, it clearly lies with the atheist thinking. :?:
Relatively speaking, it is the believers/theists that are making fallacious, erroneous and/or egocentric claims and judgements about the whole thing and others, even when they are absolutely not entitled to do so under the biased conditions of completely illogical beliefs. Therefore, whatever are the flaws there, they definitely lie in the thinking of the believers/theists and not in the thinking of the non-believers/atheists who only point to those fallacies/flaws that the believers/theists refuse to see due to their pre-flushed biases and one-sidedness, which invariably result in the narrow-mindedness and eventually in the mental blockades.

Only if one is open-minded, honest and observant enough to notice, the evidences of this bitter fact are numerous; in fact they are countless, and they are there in every thread of this FH and elsewhere, whenever and wherever there was/is a discussion between the two on such topics, issues and/or subjects.

:D :) :thumbsup:

[Rohit]

- A man's ethical behaviour should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary.

- Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions.

- For a doctrine which is able to maintain itself not in clear light but only in the dark, will of necessity lose its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress ....

- Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence.

- I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it.

- If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.

- In order to be an immaculate member of a flock of sheep, one must above all be a sheep oneself.

- It is in this striving after the rational unification of the manifold that it encounters its greatest successes, even though it is precisely this attempt which causes it to run the greatest risk of falling a prey to illusion.

- It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie, which is being systematically repeated.

- Man tries to make for himself in the fashion that suits him best a simplified and intelligible picture of the world; he then tries to some extent to substitute this cosmos of his for the world of experience, and thus to overcome it. This is what the painter, the poet, the speculative philosopher, and the natural scientists do, each in his own fashion. Each makes this cosmos and its construction the pivot of his emotional life, in order to find in this way peace and security which he can not find in the narrow whirlpool of personal experience.

- Neither can I nor would I want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death; let feeble souls, from fear or absurd egoism, cherish such thoughts.

- Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.

- Since our inner experiences consist of reproductions, and combinations of sensory impressions, the concept of a soul without a body seem to me to be empty and devoid of meaning.

- The more a man is imbued with the ordered regularity of all events the firmer becomes his conviction that there is no room left by the side of this ordered regularity for causes of a different nature. For him neither the rule of human nor the rule of divine will exist as an independent cause of natural events.

- The most incomprehensible thing about the universe is that it is comprehensible.

- The mystical trend of our time, which shows itself particularly in the rampant growth of the so-called Theosophy and Spiritualism, is for me no more than a symptom of weakness and confusion.

- The real problem is in the hearts and minds of men. It is easier to denature plutonium than to denature the evil spirit of man.

- The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. The religion which is based on experience, which refuses dogmatic. If there's any religion that would cope the scientific needs it will be Buddhism....

Albert Einstein

[goodsense]

[tscii:6aecb75a51]"biased conditions of completely illogical beliefs”.

There is no basis for this statement and one can turn around and say the same about the atheist i.e. that he/she is biased with illogical beliefs.

“Only if one is open-minded, honest and observant enough to notice”.

Again, you are judging people, on what basis, what standard and whose standard. And why do you think you are the person to say which is correct or absolute and which is not?

You are always trying to sound as if you got it right over everyone else and trying most of the time to come across as superior over us here while trying to pass judgment. This is so sad. No one has the right to think this way or do such things in a place like this. You can only hav a premise, supported by facts and evidence, make your arguments and give your opinion and leave it as that. This is what this forum is about. If what you are insinuating is true in any way, I am sure you wouldn’t be posting here still. You know what I mean. :wink:

If someone disagrees, no need to refer to them as being illological, unable to grasp, asking them to stay quiet etc. This is what I see in most post.

I remember duirng my uni days, I cam across students who either had no point or couldn’t clearly put forward arguments and support their premises. They would write in such a way and so good at it, that they would get the professors to give them what they want, without the professor being able to understand or justify why he/she gave that mark. It's an art that avoids being grounded on the issue. Sometimes I feel the same here, like those professors; just wanting to get it over than to challenge. There must be an art to such work of such students to avoid being challennged even when it is warranted. So I guess, the high credit is for the art which can be misleading. I feel very offended when I have to say this. :cry: [/tscii:6aecb75a51]

[Rohit]

Again, you are judging people, on what basis, what standard and whose standard.
If this how you view and analyse the current state of argumentation between the two of us, then the very statement of yours applies to no one else but to you only. Since, it is you who started the argument with the following remark, followed by a judgement:

Rohit,

Your empticons are always constant; never changes. A bit unusual. Or is it that you just like those selections of emoticons. :) :wink: :lol:
Had I said; sorry goodsense, if you don't like my usage of those emoticons, I shall stop using them. That would have satisfied you and perhaps made you even happy and it wouldn't have lead us to this argumentation.

But I didn't say that; instead, I gave a correct reason and explanation for my usage of those eoticons, which, strangely, you didn't like, which in turn triggered this dissonance-ridden arguments from you, my repose to which you couldn't either stand or understand due to the stated biased conditions of completely illogical beliefs.

Which conclusively proves what I have stated in my previous post, I am afraid.


And why do you think you are the person to say which is correct or absolute and which is not?
For my arguments are based on a universal Truth, which is:

There is no cognition that qualifies for true knowledge for all; nor is there cognition that qualifies for true ignorance for all. It is the inability to grasp the extent of dichotomy that marks the limit of one's cognition.

If you still fail to grasp the meaning of above proposition/premise, I am more than happy to take it further, only if you wish and are prepared to understand its meaning; and then based on that, prepared to grasp who or what is correct and absolute and who or what is not.

If what you are insinuating is true in any way, I am sure you wouldn't be posting here still. You know what I mean.
No, I don't know what you mean, I am afraid. However, I am sure, the exact meaning of the above allegation is applicable only to those holders of the stated illogical beliefs, against which I have proven arguments and they are only to be grasped by the believers/theists.

If believers/theists haven't stopped their arguments; it proves only one thing; that is, what you have just said, is only applicable to them and only them, I am afraid.

:D :) :thumbsup:

[goodsense]

That was not a judgment to begin with. It was an opinion followed by a question to clarify. Further, my last post has nothing to do with the old post. They are quite separate. I hope you would believe. Furthermore, I didn't take you third to last post personal. I took it that you were referring to a few of us here, so how could I possibly be relating it to your response to my old post about the empticons you referred to. Come on, I am way too matured for that.

My post about the empticons was truly based on my sense of humour than anything else. This is the problem - relying fully on what one write and running the risk of not knowing what that person could be thinking or their reason for saying certain things. Once I made this point and another hubber got offended. But it is so true, we could never be sure of what people are thinking when they say something, especially in this hub.

[Rohit]

That was not a judgment to begin with. It was an opinion followed by a question to clarify. Further, my last post has nothing to do with the old post. They are quite separate. I hope you would believe.
Whatever your intentions were, they are absolutely irrelevant now; since the current state of affairs is a direct result of your response to my answer to your following remark; or should I say, the judgement, which was in direct relation to my usage of the specific emoticons. Nonetheless, the two arguments cannot be separated the way you want them to be separated, I am afraid. I expect you to at least understand that now. If you really do understand that, then I don't think you should expect me to believe you as you have expected me to believe you. Should you?

A bit unusual.

Yes! Since, only a few can achieve such perfection. :)
Now go back to your response to my above answer and check whether it has anything to do with the current state of arguments or not. If you claim you are mature enough, then you should also know that a denial to this would earn you no credit whatsoever; and in that case, I have nothing more to add to what I have already said.

:D :) :thumbsup:

[goodsense]

Rohit,

My observation started a long time ago, maybe the time was just ripe for me to say what I have been noticing. Just a coincidence and perhaps that post you are referring to, may have just triggered off what was there for sometime. :huh:

The atheist and theist so to speak, were around long before we graced this forum. All we have been doing is pointing to which we accept, why and to what extent. What is so biased about that? :wink:

Any way I am not even supposed to be hubbing at this time; as indicated to Pradheep earlier, will come back in a few weeks. Yes I am addicted because it's so easy. I spend long hours at my desk and it's so easy to take a peep more than I should, but not for this amount of time. I only meant to peep and go, not to be hauled in like this. I think I will shift my computer to another desk. :bangcomp:

Pradheep, SRS,and Avil went with you for a swim and got back to shore, its now my turn to get back to shore. :mrgreen:

Any thing else you have to say will be on hold. I don't want to be forced to come here and get so involved. :) :wave:

[Rohit]

Just a coincidence and perhaps that post you are referring to, may have just triggered off what was there for sometime. :huh:

..........All we have been doing is pointing to which we accept, why and to what extent. What is so biased about that? :wink:


..........its now my turn to get back to shore. :mrgreen:

..........I don't want to be forced to come here and get so involved. :) :wave:
Exactly like the great Buddha said:

Your past actions decide your present and your present actions decide your future. It was only in your hands to choose how to shape your present; and it is only in your hands to choose how to shape your future.

The same chain of actions and consequences (cause and effect) applies if 'you' is substituted with individuals, families, societies, civilisations, nations and eventually the entire humanity.

The obvious choices are then, either to get drowned by the skewing and debasing evil forces of emotional blackmails or to swim yourself across the deep and vast ocean with clear and firm resolve.

:D :) :thumbsup: