why do we chant mantras?

[avii]

wwhy do we chant mantras in , be it hindi , tamil, sanskit, etc. If we know the meaning in our mother tongue, then why not just chant the mantra in english ??? is there some importance in the actual language ????

[pradheep]

Mantras have effect on both body and mind. Sound (Acoustics) have been researched and found to have good and bad effect on health. Sound as Music is good and as noise is bad for health of mind and body.

Mantras are musical and have good effects on body and Mind.

Sanskrit have unique sound combination that have greater effects . My dear friends who read this should not be feel insulted because I said somethign great about one language. Every language has its own musical influence.

So even In English one could chant, but the effects will vary.

At begining stage we are aware of the body and mind effects only.

But at next level you will understand that this chanting helps you to keep you mind from wandering. Then in the final stage mantra chanting can help transcending.

When people do chanting with me , I tell them to be aware of the breath and the mantra patterns and in that way one is able to keep the mind in the present instead of wandering. This gives higher health benefits and spiritual benfits too.

[avii]

in the devi bagavatham i have read two instances where the divine shakti granted boons to devotees and also included that whoever uses this or that mantra , with their offerings , the blessing would be multiplied by a hundred. so i was wondering if the effect would be the same if the mantra was in another language??

[avii]

by the way, i do love using mantras in their original languages (their sound is better and english is not as discriptive as other languages) but i have been asked this question by other devotees and am not sure as to the answer

[pradheep]

The effect is not fully in the mantras, it is in the intention. Our thoughts are behind the actions. These mantras give us positive thoughts and feelings. These thoughts and feelings bring the desired results.

Not only in Devi Bagavatham, in all chants there is a phala-sruthi, which means the intended fruits that will be got by doing these chants. So when the intension is clear the results are obtained.

what is the best?. To get the musical effect and the results, do chanting by knowing meaning. Hope this is clear if not will give more explanation.

[Rohit]

why do we chant mantras?

Simply to divert your brain from thinking so that it becomes completely useless - i.e ignorant of the factual reality- like waves after waves of foreign invasions that resulted in utter destitute condition of the entire India and 100s of millions of Indians.

:D :thumbsup:

[pradheep]

Rohit
I know you are boiling inside because of the defeat you are undergoing and so you are following me wherever you can.

Foriegn invasion is because people misunderstood like you. Ahimsa is not to harm others but that does not meaqn to protect oneself. That is why in vedic tradition which talks about Ahimsa, can one class of people called Kshatriyas to defend the country. Their dharma was to protect the country.

People like you misunderstood everything and brought ignorance. India destroyed in weaponary science and that country which has fought mighty wars like Mahabharata could not stand even invasion of ants, because of ignorance.

A person like you who do not know anything about higher principles in life , can differentiate between Dharma and Ahimsa.

That is why Gita is a book to fight and not run like a coward like you. Gita teaches Ahimsa and Dharma at the same time.

When people like you were born In India , under the gimmicks of intelligence fed ignorance and thus India fell to foreign invasion.

India will arise and out of many thousands I am "One" to bring correct understanding to people. I am not bothered about parasites like you, who sucks blood (forum hub space) and spread germs of ignorance.


I do not hurt any one , but to protect ignorance and hatred being spread, I have to call you a spineless person who does not have the guts even to expose his personal identity. You are hiding yourself and call everyone names and stupid. If you have guts and is fearless then go and update your profile and expose yourself to the friends. Dont hide yourself like a coward.

[Rohit]

Please, please Pradheep, stop your Egocentric nonsense so that people can relate to your real posts.
The current posts of yours reveals nothing but an Egocentric child adamant to have an lollipop before yielding to the facts.
:D :) :thumbsup:

[Rohit]

If you have guts and is fearless then go and update your profile and expose yourself to the friends.
I am Rohit (Vishnu) and I always was Rohit (Vishnu) to those who knew me since my birth. Isn't that enough?

[Rohit]

That is why Gita is a book Derived from Buddha's (Buddha depicted as Krishna - the highest reality, the avtara of Vishnu) teachings of Karma, Maya (illusion) and four Nobel Truths, which the Emperor Ashoka, despite conquering the entire Bharat and far beyond; surrendered to Buddha. Was that a miracle? Not at all; but it was the result of right thoughts going into the right thinking mind, which you - the terribly confused Buddhist - the lowest parasite - definitely heven't got.

[avii]

to rohit
please, if you have no good intensions please refrain from interupting this thread , some of us actually log on to learn . i have no objections to constructive critisism, but you are just out to harass pradheep , please take it to a personnal message

[Rohit]

some of us actually log on to learn.
Dear Avii,

I have no nothing but only good intentions; and to see that, one too must have good intentions and look at the reality from every aspects and not just one Egocentric perspectives.

However, if that is difficult to grasp, I leave it you unlit you realise yourself of the utter fallacies in such Egocentric beliefs, even if it takes longer than you would like.

Good luck! :) :thumbsup:

[Badri]

Rohit and Pradeep: If you will not cease this endless debate, hijacking all threads, I will have no other option but to ban you both. Consider this as the last and final warning.

[Rohit]

Dear Badri,

I am not bothered about the ban, but what I am bothered about is that despite my repeated cautions to Pradheep and his associates not to address my posts if they cannot grasp them, they wouldn’t leave them to the readers to make their own judgements. In fact, it is this sort of behaviours that trigger the rounds of such futile arguments as witnessed.

Anyway, thank you for the warranted caution; and in response I will request you keep an eye on such encounters as and when they arise due to such misbehaviours.

Thank you!

:) :thumbsup:

[SRS]

why do we chant mantras?

Simply to divert your brain from thinking so that it becomes completely useless - i.e ignorant of the factual reality- like waves after waves of foreign invasions that resulted in utter destitute condition of the entire India and 100s of millions of Indians.

:D :thumbsup:

Actually the thereaputic effects of praying have been scientifically documented. These include lower blood pressure, improved respiratory performance, etc. And those foreign invaders you mention, well, the irony is that none of them are around today, but India still is. Perhaps if the invaders had kept to their within their borders, they might still be around.

[Rohit]

Actually the thereaputic effects of praying have been scientifically documented.
I would not disagree with the theraputic effects of praying. However, there are countless therapies, some are listed below, but not all are praying.

- Aroma Therapy
- Art Therapy
- Behaviour Therapy
- Cognitive Analytical Therapy
- Cognitive Behavioural Therapy
- Electro-Convulsive Therapy
- Hypnosis
- Laughter Therapy
- Massage Therapy
- Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP)
- Occupational Therapy
- Psychotherapy
- Therapeutic exercises (Yoga, meditation fall under this category)
- And so many others

In fact, only if one cares to grasp, praying falls under the category of Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP)

:) :thumbsup:

[SRS]

Actually the thereaputic effects of praying have been scientifically documented.
I would not disagree with the theraputic effects of praying. However, there are countless therapies, some are listed below, but not all are praying.

- Aroma Therapy
- Art Therapy
- Behaviour Therapy
- Cognitive Analytical Therapy
- Cognitive Behavioural Therapy
- Electro-Convulsive Therapy
- Hypnosis
- Laughter Therapy
- Massage Therapy
- Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP)
- Occupational Therapy
- Psychotherapy
- Therapeutic exercises (Yoga, meditation fall under this category)
- And so many others

In fact, only if one cares to grasp, praying falls under the category of Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP)

:) :thumbsup:

But only praying is suitable for all occassions. I do not think "laughter therapy" or attaching electrodes to the scalp (electro-convulsive) is suitable for dealing with grief.

I am not sure that praying falls under the category of NLP. According to Wikipedia,

"The original developers claimed not to be interested in theory, and NLP teaches a practitioner to focus on "what works". However, this in no way prevents practitioners from creating and promoting their own theories behind NLP, and some have done this, basing theories upon a synthesis of core observable NLP combined with other personal, new age, psychological, and/or neurological concepts. Some trainers teach these theories as part of NLP."

But one does not pray because it works. One prays to find closure. Meaning, when you pray, find a sense of peace (due to your senses being detached from the material world). I am sure you can find a sense of peace with "aroma therapy" or "art therapy"
but it is not the same.

[Rohit]

......praying is suitable for all occassions.

Yes, just praying was everything that one needed, even if the result was waves after waves of foreign invasions and resulting destitution of India and her people.

Praying is indeed NLP, not being able to grasp that fact is nothing but an adverse effect of just praying for all occasions.

:) :thumbsup:

[avii]

to rohit

praying/meditating is (in my view) the best medicene . many have recieved relief and peace after confesions, if this is the power of the mind, then why do you not accept prayer as a good thing???

[pradheep]

Dear Avii
The invaded and the invaders were both praying God and so the one who did the most powerful praying WON.

[Rohit]

Praying/meditating is (in my view) the best medicene.
Dear Avii,

It maybe, in your view, the best remedy, but subscribing to it for all occasions and situations is neither a good idea nor a good practice. It simply becomes an overdose of the same type of NLP and the consequences are even more dangerous than the original disease itself; as one would end-up using the same type of NLP in every situation, simply because he/she wouldn't know the alternatives that are far better and effective in those situations.

In nutshell, in the long run, such reliance on such NLP becomes serious impediment to the overall cognitive development of the whole society as evidently proved by our dismal historical record. And the prevalent cognitive incapacity to realise that fact even now demonstrates nothing but the continuation of the detrimental effects of such NLP, I am afraid.

The dissonance reduction process, which is already set in motion, is nothing but NLP. The more one engages in such dissonance reduction processes, the more one demonstrates the process of NLP in action.

Nonetheless, such NLP does seem to work for some in reducing the severity of dissonance experienced from such unpleasant situations; and there is nothing whatsoever they would do to overcome that reliance.

So, those who have undergone such NLP, please carryon praying, on all occasions and in every situations; but don't bother to respond to this post, simply because it wouldn't count as praying.

Thank you and good luck!

:D :) :thumbsup:

[SRS]

......praying is suitable for all occassions.

Yes, just praying was everything that one needed, even if the result was waves after waves of foreign invasions and resulting destitution of India and her people.

Praying is indeed NLP, not being able to grasp that fact is nothing but an adverse effect of just praying for all occasions.

:) :thumbsup:

Like Pradheep said, both the invaders and invaders prayed to God. So I am not sure what your logic is... when the justification that many invaders had for invading India and such places was to convert the Indians to another religion... unless you agree with certain racial theories like social darwinism... then you are in effect making the argument that Europeans are superior to Indians.
But history will show the Europeans have been even more dogmatic in their "God-beliefs" (until very recently) than the Indians.

[Rohit]

......praying is suitable for all occassions.

Yes, just praying was everything that one needed, even if the result was waves after waves of foreign invasions and resulting destitution of India and her people.

Praying is indeed NLP, not being able to grasp that fact is nothing but an adverse effect of just praying on all occasions and in every situations.

:) :thumbsup:

[avii]

rohit
"please carryon praying, on all occasions and in every situations; but don't bother to respond to this post, simply because it wouldn't count as praying."

is eating when one is not hungry, still eating ??????? so praying all the time and on all occasions , is not praying!!!!

one should always give praises to god, there is no such thing as a time to prayer and time when one shodld not. prayer should be done as much as possible , the mind should be trained so that prayer should come as a natural as breathing.

[avii]

i have never come across anyone, who had any negitive effects from praying.

Rohit i really dont know where you are really comming from in the sense that the philosophy you speak of , but i appreciate a different point of opinion , it gives me better undertanding in my own beliefs.

[Rohit]

i have never come across anyone, who had any negitive effects from praying..
This cannot be perceived just from coming across someone who prays on all occasions and in every situations but from grasping the relations and correlates of the overall historical records that result from such blind following by the masses, completely jeopardising the overall development of the society in general.

Like I said, in the long run, such reliance on using such NLP based blind beliefs on all occasions and in every situations becomes serious impediment to the overall cognitive development of the whole society as evidently proved by over a thousand years of our dismal historical record. And the prevalent cognitive incapacity to realise that fact even now demonstrates nothing but the continuation of the detrimental effects of such NLP based blind beliefs, I am afraid.

......i appreciate a different point of opinion , it gives me better undertanding in my own beliefs.
Thank you Avii for your appreciation. However, I have nothing more to add to what I have already said.

Please carryon with whatever NLP based personal beliefs that work for you and make you happy; but be cautioned, there is no truth in such beliefs, none whatsoever. It is the psychological effects that such NLP based beliefs produce, which are then wishfully believed as real - i.e. through self-deception; that is all there is to it, nothing more, nothing less.

:) :thumbsup:

[savvysubu]

I am not interested in debating on "why do we chant mantras". But, I can tell you why I chant mantras:

* The mantras I recite are in languages different from English, and it provides me an opportunity to learn what they mean.

* Sanskrit mantras are structured to make them musical. I enjoy setting them to different tunes, which is something I can not do if I read the English translation.

* Kids find Shloka chanting as an interesting activity, and I think that it is better for my kid to get involved in it than watching TV and violence.

* I like such activities that involve fewer people than watching a game or a movie
with 100 people and spitting out or listening to some opinions which are probably not valid
beyond one day.

Subu

[Rohit]

I am not interested in debating on "why do we chant mantras". But, I can tell you why I chant mantras:

* The mantras I recite are in languages different from English, and it provides me an opportunity to learn what they mean.

* Sanskrit mantras are structured to make them musical. I enjoy setting them to different tunes, which is something I can not do if I read the English translation.

* Kids find Shloka chanting as an interesting activity, and I think that it is better for my kid to get involved in it than watching TV and violence.

* I like such activities that involve fewer people than watching a game or a movie
with 100 people and spitting out or listening to some opinions which are probably not valid
beyond one day.

Subu

Protecting kids from knowing the 'ins and outs' of the wild world is one of the worst possible excuses parents and society in general normally use to justify praying and the chanting of mantras, instead of explaining them the factual reality of the world and guiding them in finding better and effective ways to face the world as it is; and change it for a better one, if at all possible. A gradual process of self-actualisation, but much better process overall, though only a few can actualise, but those who can, can change the whole world.

:) :thumbsup:

[pradheep]

I think that it is better for my kid to get involved in it than watching TV and violence.

Dear subu
You are right. Kids who see all this violence at very young age grow up thinking that violence is normal and grow with no clue about "Self" and truth and think chanting mantras is a belief system. Look at Sidhhartha, whose parents thought like you and did not show anything bad in young life, later became the Great Buddha, who was one among other great people to change the world. So if you think Budhha's life is an example, then please continue your wonderful parenting. What we need to teach our children is to seek their "Self", the source of love, joy and happiness. If they grow without this knowledge they end up polluting the world and destroying not only mankind but the whole planet.

[goodsense]

Right on there Pradeep. :thumbsup:

I have to also agree with Rohit to some extent " explaining them the factual reality of the world and guiding them in finding better and effective ways to face the world as it is; and change it for a better one". I think this will come at a later stage. You don't want to force a child to grow up too soon and parents being too protective can be negative. As individuals with adult minds, we need to go through some thorns in growning and developing our minds and build character. What is important is to be taught the rights and wrongs and know them when you go through such thorns; in otherwords, to prepare you so you come out of it successfully.

It's something like what I see around me with little girls from Paksitani parents. They are covered from head to toe from such a young age with no freedom to enjoy their girlhood. I mean this in a good way. Later in life, they have no way of distinguishing who they are from what has been imposed upon them from such an early age. They may never have even thought about it other than accepting it - what they know from an early life to be the only right way or thing. This is just my opinion.

[Rohit]

I have to also agree with Rohit to some extent " explaining them the factual reality of the world and guiding them in finding better and effective ways to face the world as it is; and change it for a better one". I think this will come at a later stage. You don't want to force a child to grow up too soon and parents being too protective can be negative. As individuals with adult minds, we need to go through some thorns in growning and developing our minds and build character. What is important is to be taught the rights and wrongs and know them when you go through such thorns; in otherwords, to prepare you so you come out of it successfully.

It's something like what I see around me with little girls from Paksitani parents. They are covered from head to toe from such a young age with no freedom to enjoy their girlhood. I mean this in a good way. Later in life, they have no way of distinguishing who they are from what has been imposed upon them from such an early age. They may never have even thought about it other than accepting it - what they know from an early life to be the only right way or thing.

Exactly Goodsense; a very good post indeed. I would just add the following to what you have said.

In fact, explaining and guiding kids in their development begins at much earlier stage than an average parents would normally know. And it is there, where the ability of parents to judge the right time and strike the right balance between preaching their kids dogmatic blind beliefs and teaching them to find out and face the factual reality of life, comes.

:) :thumbsup:

[Rohit]

Buddha and "Atman/Self"

Buddha regarded the belief in a permanent "Atman/Self" not only negates the activities of moral life but it also becomes hindrance in the path of Nirvana - the perfect liberation. That is why Buddha did not recommend his followers to embrace the tenets about the existence of "Atman/Self". Buddha repeatedly warned people to avoid embracing such beliefs, as he regarded such blind beliefs as unhealthy or counterproductive.

Buddha also emphasised that Consciousness is like a mountain stream, which flows fast and is forever changing. There is no permanence; but there is constant change in it. The arising, disappearance and changing of everything that exists are the three evident signs of compounded things.

:D :) :thumbsup:

[Rohit]

As a matter of courtesy, I would like to take this opportunity to wish all our FH friends:

A Very Happy and Enchanting Diwali

AND

A Very Happy and Prosperous New Year - V.S. 2063

:D :thumbsup:

[Rohit]

As a matter of courtesy, I would also like to take this opportunity to wish all our FH friends:

Eid Mubarak

:D :thumbsup:

[pradheep]

Happy Deepavali to all of you.
We celebrate every year birthday for our body, because the body was born on a particular day and we are constantly aware of only the body. But there is a subtle aspect beyond the body which in scientific language is "Consciousness" and the religous word is "God" and Vedic name is "Brahman or Atman".
Do we celebrate birthday for our inner "Self". This inner Self is like a light that gives us "life'. Deepavali is the birthday of that inner light, which most of the time we are not aware of. Our wise ancestors understood the importance of being aware of our inner Self or light and hence made us celebrate Deepavali, which means to be "Aware of the inner light". For our body's birthday we blow "off " light, because this body will also one day blow off. But on Deepavali we lit "light" which is to remind us of the inner light.
Knowing this inner light, one understands inner peace or joy or Ananda. This is symbolized by eating and distributing sweets and the joy of eating sweets does not equal to one zillionth of the joy knowing our inner Self. Light removes darkness of Ignorance and that is symbolized of gods killing Asuras or demons.
The Mahalakshmi is the symbol of light and she is described as Hiranya varna, the color of the bright golden light. Mahalakshmi pooja is done on deepavali days to remind of this wealth of light in us. Knowing this inner light is the real wealth or lakshmi. All other wealth gives comfort to the body and Lakshmi to the Atma.
So friends do not celebrate deepavali as a mere ritualistic festival. Deepavali is the birthday of your "Inner Self, the guiding Light". Happy (Birthday) Deepavali to all of you.
More details in http://sakthifoundation.org/deepavali.htm

[goodsense]

Pradeep, just found something that supports what you said about the "inner light". :) Read on to the end.

"With the realization of the Atman, comes universal compassion, love, and the awareness of the oneness of all things (higher knowledge). This brings Ananda (Inner Joy or Peace). Deepavali celebrates this through festive fireworks, lights, flowers, sharing sweets, and worship. While the story behind Deepavali varies from region to region, the essence is the same - to rejoice in the Inner Light (Atman) or the underlying reality of all things (Brahman).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diwali

This ties in so well with the recent arguments between you and Rohit i.e to know the underlying realities of all things, not only some or only the good or only the bad or evil. :)

[avii]

As a matter of courtesy, I would like to take this opportunity to wish all our FH friends:

A Very Happy and Enchanting Diwali

AND

A Very Happy and Prosperous New Year - V.S. 2063

:D :thumbsup:



rohit , what did you mean by new year 2063 ????

[pradheep]

Inner Light

Thanks you good sense

SRS,
why should it be represented as "Light"?. Because without light the eyes cannot perceive. The eyes perceive when objects reflect light. This is why the Self is represented as light. So the inner light is that by which "everything becomes perceptible". The other name is consciousness-awareness, without which there is no knowing. Everything is only chemical reactions including the phenomenon in the brain. But the inner light or sat-chit-ananda (Consciousness-awareness) is the one that is the perceiver, perceiving and perceived.

[SRS]

Inner Light

But the inner light or sat-chit-ananda (Consciousness-awareness) is the one that is the perceiver, perceiving and perceived.

How is the inner light all three things at the same time: perciever, perceiving, and perceived?

[pradheep]

How is the inner light all three things at the same time: perciever, perceiving, and perceived?

Note: I use this symbol (?) when i dont have an exact word to represent it.

Everything is Consciousness, which means the created creation and creator is Consciousness (Inner light, Brahman, God, Soonya etc).

We left the discussion earlier about perception. when we look at a flower, the eyes look at the flower, but does really the eyes look at the flower. It is the mind that looks at the flower. (A dead body's may have eye lid open, but we do not say the eye looks at the flower ).

So there is something more subtle that looks at the flower, than the matter (body- here it is eye). We call it as mind. Mind is nothing but thoughts. The mind (manas) has various thoughts. These thoughts can be taken into consideration or rejected. So there is still subtler aspect than the mind. That we call as intellect or Buddhi. Buddhi is that which can discriminate thoughts and can consider it or reject it.

This intellect grows out of experience and the one that is aware of the changes of this intellect, is still more subtler and is called is called awareness or "Chit". But this awareness is conditional which means , it is expressed based on the "body" vehicle it assumes.

Nonetheless, there is the subtlest unconditional awareness which is the fundamental of all the above body, mind, intellect and awareness. This is called as Consciousness. So the body, mind, intellect and awareness when operate we call it as life. When awareness drops, we say it is dead, no life. Awareness"Shiva" then becomes "Shava".


To know all the aspects of body, mind, lntellect, awareness we have to tranncend from the gross body to subtle mind to subtlier intellect and to the subtlest awareness and finally to Consciousness. The irony is that all these are only Consciousness, but because of our ignorance we do not know this.

Awareness does not change in respect to an individual. When I look at a flower I say I am aware of a flower. When I look at a cell phone i say i am aware of cell phone. When i look at a car I say I am aware of a car. Now flower, cell phone, car are thoughts in me which i am aware of. The thoughts are changing , but the fact that I am aware of is not changing. Awareness is not changing, only things that I am aware of is only changing. Hope you are clear with this.

To be "aware of" I, dont need anything else. Even without things or thoughts or objects, I am still "Aware". Right?. So my real nature is only "Awareness'". But this awareness can identify (?) other gross forms of awareness, like intellect (higher grossness), mind (more grossier) , body (matter) (grossiest).

Now let us go to the science (knowledge) of perception.

so the grossiest matter (eye) does not perceive another grossiest matter (flower) for that matter even another awareful human being. It is the less grossiest mind that actually looking at the flower. For the mind to look at a flower it needs eyes. So eyes are only the medium. If the mind is not there then there is no sight of the flower. The light signals from the eyes touch the retinal and excites electrical signals which the brain interprets as a flower. Here the eyes are made of molecules and the interaction of molecules with the light causes biochemical reactions which are passed to the brain. Brain is also made of molecules which does biochemical reactions , when the electrical signals reach them. So there is only plays of biochemicals. When eyes confronts a flower, then what is that sees a flower. If light of flower falls on the eyes , then what is that is seen? where is awareness of a flower come into being?

Then what is perception?. Perception is awareness meeting (?) awareness. Here is what we have to be clear. Flower is Consciousness, eyes are Consciousness, brain is consciousness. Perception is only consciousness interacting (?) with Consciouness.

what is then awareness?. Awareness is that conditioned Consciousness perceiving a conditioned consciousness in the form of flower. But when I say "I" am looking at a flower , then it is Ego.

What is Ego?. When I say I am different from flower and I am a human. The duality not recognizing "Onenesss - Consciousness" is Ego.

So Consciousness appear as flower, appear as human and there is perception. So it is the Consciousness (light) is the one that is the perceiver, perceiving, and the perceived. But it is the Ego that says "I" perceived , not aware of the Consciousness. Why it has no awareness of Cosnciousness. because it identifies with matter (body). What is the ego, it is a self created false identity to gross matter and not the subtle aspect. Who created it and how does it go?. That is the story of Evolution. The details of these are found in all vedic texts like upanishads, Tirumandiram, in other saivate, viashnavite, sakthi texts.

Many modern Neurologits (like Dennett for example) miss the whole understanding because they think Consciousness is generated or located in the brain. It is awareness that is generated by the neuronal firing. The difference of life and death is only the difference of Awareness and Cosnciousness. Consicousness is not localised , it is everything, the living and dead. it is unchanging. It is the awareness that changes based on the interaction fo biomolecules.

This can be understood by the famous example of Adi-sankara , stepping on the rope and projecting as snake. What that means is that all these perceptions we experience is not real (which means changing) and the only reality is the Consciousness. Which means that the rope is the fundamental reality , but it is projected as snake (unreal) due to ignorance.

Summary: The whole thing is only Consciousness, but because of Ego (identification to gross ignoring the subtle) is the fundamental flaw. The Ego has to transcend from the gross (body) to the sublte mind and again to the subtlest, intllect and again to the more subtlest intellect adn further down to awareness and fianlly cosnciousness.

if you look at evolution this is the sequence. The lower animals are only aware of their body. The higher evoled transcend to the mind state showing emotions. But man is the one who can go still to the subtlest of the intellect. More evolved humans then transcend to the still subtler "Awareness", aware of awareness.

This is the concept of all rituals (to the body), then comes bhajans sings and chanting for the mind, then reading scriptures for the intellect and then meditation for awareness and samadhi is transcending to the Consciousness, the ultimate reality.

Be aware of one fact, with this human body are we identifying with our body, or mind or intellect or the awareness. Every human should do this self introspection and evolve to God-hood which means to Consciousness.

SRS, hope I have answered your question how it is the same Consciousness that is the creator, creation and the created. From the subtlest to the gross it is only the Cosnciousness. Then it is the subtle that idnetifies the same subtlest in everything. Then isnt "all three things at the same time: perciever, perceiving, and perceived" is the inner light or Consciousness.

Please read the above posting and at any step it is not clear we can discuss that.

[pradheep]

[tscii:3e8790e5ca]What are manthras and how many types of manthras are there. Mananena thraayathe iti mantra = by repeated chanting the one which protects you is known as manthra. When a manthra is chanted in rhythmic tone with ups and downs, they create a melodious effect in the body . This effect can be defined as the neurolinguistic effect. Remember the Neurolinguistic effect will be possible even if you do not know the meaning of the manthra. Hence knowing the meaning of every manthra is not compulsory. At the same time if you know the meaning it has got an additional effect which is known as Neurolinguistic (NLE)+ Psycholinguistic effect (PLE). Lot of Research studies have been carried out by many and important results derived by one of the famous professors Dr. T. Temple Tutler, of the Cleveland University, USA on these effects are remarkable. Remember the NLE and PLE effects are due to the production and spreading of curative chemicals in the brain. These curative chemicals give smoothening and curing effect in the body. Thus manthra chanting is no way a superstition . It can also be directly called as music therapy or manthra therapy in modern words. Listening to manthras directly lowers blood pressure, normalizes heart beating rate, brain wave pattern, adrenalin level, even cholesterol level. That is the reason why modern doctors advise the people under high tension to sit and listen to music or manthras for few minutes. This has become an accepted procedure just like the yoga and pranayaama practices. Even chanting the keerthans, melodious bhajans, songs, etc have the good effect almost similar to the NLE and PLE. How ever there should a melodious pattern for that . The music/ song/manthra should never be hard/ harsh/rough/ etc. The speed also should have a smoothening effect for example even Gayatri manthra chanting should be done at the range of 4 - 8 numbers per minute, Om Namo Narayanaaya at 38 -62 and Om Namassivaaya at 42 – 68 range per minute.

Chanting the manthras everyday is excellent and important at a particular time. In physics the time, space and observer are the three important factors. Exactly like that the time, space and the person connected with chanting/listening manthras are three important factors for deriving benefit of manthras. Hence sareera suddhi, ahaara suddhi, mana suddhi, vaak suddhi and karma suddhi are essential for deriving the full benefit of chanting the manthra. Also the place where you are sitting should give calming effect, comfortable feeling etc. The ideal timings are the prabhata sandhya and saayam sandhya. Morning and evening. Group chanting is excellent. Absolutely no mistake is expected in Vedic mantra chanting. When you are sick due to ill health or old age, one need not worry too much about his incapability of chanting the manthras. Manthras are chanted for solving our problems and for positive effects but manthra chanting/ not chanting should not become another problem for us. The ideal sound for manthra chanting can be maintained if possible at radius 7 meters. Veda manthras chanting is not easy soit is advised not to chant without the guidance from a guru.

There are four types of mantras. The Vedic mantras, the puranic mantras, the itihaasic mantras and karma mantras. Veda mantras have ten types of sruthees/swaras/tones known as udaattha, anudaattha, swaritha, repha, hraswa, pracheya, anunaasikaa, kampa, deergha kampa, plutha. Those who are interested in learning Vedas should learn all these swaras in younger age itself. If so it is easy otherwise it becomes difficult. Chanting Veda mantra means chanting with sruthi. Sruthi of Vedas is more important than the meaning. Hence even without knowing the meaning one can chant/listen to the Vedas for getting the Neurolinguistic effect. If the meaning is known and chanted as a prayer , then Neurolinguistic and Psycholinguistic effects are derived for mental/ physical and spiritual merits (like normalization of brain waves , heart beat, blood pressure, cholesterol level, and the level of adrenalin in the blood – due to the formation of curative hormones/chemicals in the brain . This can also be called as music therapy). Even the meaning of the manthra shall change if not properly chanted. Hence it is advised that generally one should not chant Veda mantra but can listen ( sruthi) for getting the positive effects. One need not be a Brahmin for learning Vedas. There are many scholars in Kerala, who are not Brahmins by birth but have attained even a higher level than Brahmins, who are chanting the Veda mantras. There are thousands of ladies in Karnataka who chant Veda mantras perfectly and also many who perform Yaagas by themselves. It takes years together for learning the Vedas and rigorous customs and rituals are to be followed during the learning period. These strict rules and codes are implemented to see that Vedic chanting method should not go to those who are not very serious. Generally the Veda mantras are chanted in each and every steps of the Yaagaas. But in poojas/ archanas and prayers few lines/sookthas of veda manthras are chanted. But all the mantras chanted in poojas and also in temple rituals are not Veda mantras. Majority of them are puraana mantras and karma mantras . Purusha sookatha, Sreesuktha, Bhaagya sooktha, Rudra, Chamaka, Navagraha sooktha, Gayatri manthra, Mruthyunjaya manthra, etc are few among thousands of the vedic mantras.

Purana mantras are those mantras which are present in eighteen mahapuranaas or upapuraanaas. They can generally be chanted by anyone including ladies independent of caste and religion ( even though opinion varies) with sareera sudhi, aahara sudhi, manasuddhi, vaak suddhi and karma suddhi. In these mantras. Generally there are no rigid sruthies and rules for chanting the puraana mantras. One can opt for their own ragas. The rules for learning the purana mantras are not rigid, but one should have clear voice/sound and devotion and sincerity . Purana mantras can be chanted for poojas or as evening and morning prayers. Sometimes even as a time pass ( instead of wasting time by thinking useless matters and creating tension and pain) one can chant these mantras. Lalitha sahasra naama, devi maahathmya, siva sahasranaama, ganesa sthothras etc are few among many purana mantras. If you want to chant purana mantras just go ahead . Do not ask to many people or so called Pandits.

Remember that Manthra (mananena thraayathe iti manthra) Chanting is for getting good feeling. By not chanting nothing is going to happen. Not chanting a manthra due to ill health/ old age/travel/asuddhi/out of station/ etc should not become a problem for worry .


www.IISH.org[/tscii:3e8790e5ca]

[goodsense]

Does chanting has the same effect as listening?

[goodsense]

O sorry Pradeep, I didn't read you post carefully. Only had a quick browse. Didn't see this "Listening to manthras directly lowers blood pressure, normalizes heart beating rate, brain wave pattern, adrenalin level, even cholesterol level."

Any way I thought this (what I quoted from you above) would be a positive effect, which I personally experience, but wanted to confirm. But from what I understand any melodious music can have similar effects, but perhaps not as deep. Correct me if I am wrong. Any other similarities in effects between chanting and listening?

[SRS]

So there is something more subtle that looks at the flower, than the matter (body- here it is eye). We call it as mind. Mind is nothing but thoughts. The mind (manas) has various thoughts."


How does one define a thought, exactly. The electrical impulse can be shown to stimulate a thought, but it is not the impulse that is the source of the thought. The impulse is simply a stream of ions (electrically charged atoms); so to say that the impulse is causing the thought is to say that atoms have a mind of their own, which is not true. Some will argue, thoughts stem from the evolution, that the reason we "think" is because it is necessary for our survival. But we are still "thinking" when we sleep, which is why dream. And dreams obviously serve no evolutionary function. So there must be a more consistent explanation for the origin of the "thoughts."


This intellect grows out of experience and the one that is aware of the changes of this intellect, is still more subtler and is called is called awareness or "Chit". But this awareness is conditional which means , it is expressed based on the "body" vehicle it assumes.

Can you explain why the intellect grows at different rates, for different individuals. This is one of the great unresolved debates in science, how much a person is a product of what he has inherited from his parents and great-grandparents (genes), and how much he is a product of his environment (what you term as experience). Even scientists admit, though, that they cannot explain how a gene will transmit an "ability" from one to another. Example, take one who sits at the piano since the age of 4 and is said to have extroardinary ability (can write and play music without formal training). If we look at a gene to try to understand this explanation, we are faced with the same dilemna as before. The gene, at the most basic level, depends on the nature of the combinations of lifeless atoms (molecules) combining. But it cannot be denied that parents can pass on certain abilities to children, even if the source of the transmission cannot be uniquely pinpointed. Is it lack of understanding as to the gene, or is there some more.



Nonetheless, there is the subtlest unconditional awareness which is the fundamental of all the above body, mind, intellect and awareness. This is called as Consciousness. So the body, mind, intellect and awareness when operate we call it as life. When awareness drops, we say it is dead, no life. Awareness"Shiva" then becomes "Shava".


To know all the aspects of body, mind, lntellect, awareness we have to tranncend from the gross body to subtle mind to subtlier intellect and to the subtlest awareness and finally to Consciousness. The irony is that all these are only Consciousness, but because of our ignorance we do not know this.

Does one need to have intellect to have life? There are many who lie in what is termed a "coma." Basically a deep sleep that can last 20 years even. But they are still alive; one can see this from the recorded pulses of the EKG machine. Is it not better to say, consciousness gives life and intellect is the fulfillment of life. Awareness; that is a complex question. If one meditates, he may be aware of his past lives. But when he opens his eyes, he is only aware of the reality that the five senses present to him. So what is the true awareness? And from what I just wrote, is it okay to say that consciousness is not simply what we percieve with our senses, but everything we have experienced in all of our past lives. Because along the lines of what you said, the senses merely percieve, it is the intellect that forms the thought.


Awareness is that conditioned Consciousness perceiving a conditioned consciousness in the form of flower. But when I say "I" am looking at a flower , then it is Ego.

So perhaps it is awareness that is serving the evolutionary function. As you say, awareness is "conditioned Consciousness." We are conditioned to be aware of our surroundings.



"Many modern Neurologits (like Dennett for example) miss the whole understanding because they think Consciousness is generated or located in the brain. It is awareness that is generated by the neuronal firing. The difference of life and death is only the difference of Awareness and Cosnciousness. Consicousness is not localised , it is everything, the living and dead. it is unchanging. It is the awareness that changes based on the interaction fo biomolecules."

I agree with you that consciousness is neither generated nor located in the brain. The brain works in conjunction with the other five senses. Awareness is simply the senses telling the brain to generate an appropriate reponse. This cannot explain how one is able to see into his past lives, for example. The brain is confined to what one has experienced in the past life. Consciousness is not bounded by any time limitation.

[pradheep]

Nature of thought is magnetic. The electrical stimulation generates this magnetic field , thought. All the thoughts are in magnetic form, like information stored in magnetic discs. Like a disc player converts the signals into sound or light, so is the brain. But there is more to it in brain. Brain receives and processes current stimulus also. It matches the information received to already stored information, which we call as memory.

But all these are coordinated by awareness and finally consciousness.

Each individual (intellect) is a product of many factors. Previous birth vasanas, both parental's genetics, mother's thoughts and life style during pregnancy and then the environment.

The parents genes contribute mainly to the physical structure of the body. The life stlye (diet, exercise and habits) alter the body constitution of the body. The thoughts (mental status) of the mother moulds the mind of the child. Whatever the mother appreciates or dislikes about the father will be imprinted in the mind of the child. This is how most of the characters of the father are expressed in the child.

Then comes environment. The child looks at the world through the perception of the mind given by the mother. Then the child can keep it or change based on the environment. This is why it is best to keep the child under mother's care till age of five. Otherwise the child will take the perception from the day care center.

Intelligence is the very structure of the world. Intelligence is the ability to recognize that pattern. Wisdom or gnana is the holistic view of that pattern.

So one develops intelligence and finally wisdom or gnana when one transcend the Ego and get the holistic view.

Based on the factors each individual evolve in these stages based on the thoughts he entertain. Man has always freedom to think, the thoughts and based on that he or she will evolve.

Even in coma there is awareness. Death is loss of Awareness. But there is no death for consciousness. It has no birth and death. Awareness keeps changing based on the body. Consciousness is one and the same for bacteria to man , but awareness changes in these. So does for human beings. All have same consciousness, but the awareness changes. This is the sequence of evolution.....

Mind (thoughts)...Intellect....awareness....Consciousne ss

A man who is concerned only of his thoughts, his views cannot have a higher intellect. At the same time one who has higher intellect also can go back to be only emotional. A person who keeps his intellect to see the wholeness, then becomes aware of his Awareness. Finally he or she becomes aware of Consciousness, the source for this cosmos.

This is why Gayathri mantra, the highest of all mantras invokes that "Intellect" to know the Self. Intellect is what pulls the Mind towards Awareness.

One should not confuse of the limited awareness from the higher Awareness. This means to be Aware of awareness. Every one is aware of the senses, the world around us etc. But to be aware of Awareness is the highest evolution.


When one is Aware of Awareness then one has higher powers (Siddhi). But it is not good to entertain these powers because they actually bring back the Ego. If the powers help others then they can be used. Because the Ego tries every second to get back its lost control over everything.

Summary: Mind is thought. Thoughts are magnetic field. The senses actually relay the magnetic field to the Brain in the form of electric impulses. The Brain is a wonderful tool to decode the message. It is intellect that discriminate the magnetic fields as this or that.......

The intellect are few types.

Simple intellect is the discrimination of senses like light, colors, smell, taste, touch etc etc. This most of us have.

Smriti: memory. In this mode, a decision is arrived on the bases of past experience.

Then we have Viveka Buddhi.

Viveka means the power to decide between pairs of opposites such as correct and incorrect, cause and effect, real and imagined, etc.

A person with vieveka Buddhis will have more control over himself because he will be aware of his thoughts and action and the consequences.

This Viveka Buddhi or intellect should be strengthened and which with help of a Guru leads to be Aware of Awareness.

This is where meditation helps. We will start to be aware of our body (senses), thoughts (mind), buddhi (intellect) and finally the awareness itself.

The aware of Awareness is witnessing (Consciousness).

So you can see how gradually an Individual can evolve step by step.

But to do this we need a structure a method. This is where Temples gurukulas teach us. Instead we go there to make more Politics and misunderstanding and boost our Ego, then we are struck there.

Unless one transcend Ego, one cannot perceive the Truth.

(SRS - Thanks for your wonderful question and leading this thread to seek what is real.

Because this is a thread on Chants I would like to quote sahanavavathu sahanau Bhunakthu ...chanting that is done in before this learning class.

This chanting is so beautiful that it says, let us share and nourish ourselves and let us not argue (pidi-vada) on what we say is correct, but discuss and see the Truth.

This is the greatness of Vedic culture to discuss and find the truth and not by seeing that the other person is always wrong. This chanting invokes the maturity to understand everything holistically.

[skanthan]

As a matter of courtesy, I would like to take this opportunity to wish all our FH friends:

A Very Happy and Enchanting Diwali

AND

A Very Happy and Prosperous New Year - V.S. 2063

:D :thumbsup:



rohit , what did you mean by new year 2063 ????

Avii,

This year, according to the Western calendar, is the year 2006 CE. Similarly, according to the Vikrama Samvat Calendar, this year is the year 2063 VS, the same date Rohit had given above. The Vikram Samvat calendar is about 57 years ahead of the Western Calendar. :D

So when the western calendar shifted from 1999 over to 2000, the Vikrama Samvat already did so about 57 years prior to the Western calendar in about 1943 CE. :thumbsup:

[pradheep]

Dear Good sense
Most music that soothe the mind would cause lowering of blood pressure. But chanting mantras not only does the musical effect but do much more. They are positive statements and the sound has effect on our thoughts. Sanskrit in often known as the mantra-language and Tamil the Bhakthi-language. Bhakthi words when sung as songs have an effect on the emotional mind. The Mantras in Sanskrit has effect on the intellecutal mind. Both emotional effects and intellectual effects are needed in the spiritual sadhana. Hence chanting is good for positive feelings.

[avii]

thanks skanthan :D

[skanthan]

thanks skanthan :D

You are welcome. :)

[goodsense]

Pradeep wrote:

"Bhakthi words when sung as songs have an effect on the emotional mind. The Mantras in Sanskrit has effect on the intellecutal mind. Both emotional effects and intellectual effects are needed in the spiritual sadhana. "

Very interesting indeed. This can get very personal. :cry3:

[Nakeeran]

By chanting divine mantras if special power gets generated & benefits arise , why Almighty had been so biased towards one religion only ?

Like for ex :

1. For getting rain
2. For wealth
3. For cure from disease
4. For long life
5. For education

For each facet, there are yagnas/ homas being made available .

Is there such powerful mantras in other religious scripts - say Islam / Christianity ?

[goodsense]

http://www.vishnumandir.com/htm/qna-sanatan.htm
http://www.vishnumandir.com/htm/meaning.htm
http://www.vishnumandir.com/htm/hindu-resources.htm

Can we truly say that God is biased or it it that justice is apportioned accordingly? We need to understand factors that makes this difference in apportioning.

[avii]

i think god created different ways of worship to accomodate different people of different cultures and history.

in hinduism, (thanks for the good origin of the words, goodsense) we have vedic mantras , in islam , the reading of the quaran is considered to be one of the greatest thing man can do . so in my view it all depends on faith of the devotee

[pradheep]

Dear friends
All these confusion comes when we take God Almighty as a person sitting some where and controlling us.

Whom do we pray to?

We really pray to our inner Self only. All our prayers are silent. If God should hear our prayers , then where is the God to whom we pray is present?. It is in our inner Self only.

The different prayers for rain , wealth, disease cure are only the cries of the mind.

Then why the slokas and chants are there?. The core concept of Vedic Tradition is that the World is the projection of the mind. Through praying we are creating the world as we think.

The net thoughts of an individual makes decides the life of an individual. The sum collection of thoughts of family members shape the life of a family. The sum total thoughts of different makes a society. The sum total of soc0eity makes a nation and finally this world.

So everything starts from the Individual thoughts. Those who have strong thoughts have a greater influence.

The thoughts of a terrorist is stronger than the security guards and so a terrorist can do his job overcoming the security people.

So Vedic culture only emphasize on the thoughts of individual to make his life happy and that influences the whole world.

Thus the thought of an individual expresses as action and there is a effect. This cause and effect is karma.
Every action has drishta phala and adrishta phala which means soem results are seen immediately and some later.

Each one of our life are results of our thoughts of the present and the past. This is called sanchita karma and prarabda karma.

Some results we seen immediately and some later. If we experience happiness and sorrow at any moment is the sum total of the effects of the immediate and the past.

The above is what is called as Karma.

So where is a God who is biased on unbiased. God is that principle of cause and effect. There is no bais, there is only justice. What is Justice?. It is law of cause and effect.

If we suffer it is purely the results of our thoughts. If we are happy it is also because of our thoughts.

The Ego always wants to credit itself for its happiness and pin points others for its sorrows.

There is No God sitting some where and causing suffering to us. We create our own sufferings and call God is baised.

Because all of our Ego is biased , we project God also as Biased.

Because we think we are this Ego body mind sense complex we project everything God also as a body mind sense complex.

[skanthan]

Dear goodsense, Avii, pradheep and Rohit,

From what I understand, When one does any religious/spritual activity, ie: meditation, chanting mantras, singing bhajans, or performing a pooja, not only good results come to that person and there family, but to the entire Univese. Thus we have the beautiful sloka:

Lokah Samastha Sukhino Bhavantu.
(May all beings be happy)

Through the powerful and very beautiful practices, negativity such as anger, greed, hatred, jealousy, fear, lust etc is destroyed. All negative desires ie: sensual desires, the desire to wage war and kill many people, ultimately will subside. There are many who are in the material lifestyle who are never truely happy. They will have so much tension and stress due to being in the material lifestyle or no matter how much they accumilate, the materialistic people want more and more. They always are complaining.

But when a person is in a spiritual lifestyle, uninchanted by the ways of the material world and detached from the material luxeries, only interested in connecting to and doing service to God, that person is very cotent in their life. When that individual performs their sadhana/seva with 100% devotion and sincerity, they are always happy, they are always at peace, they do not have the many negativities and vices. Yes, great are such people.

Om Shanthi, Shanthi, Shanthih.

[goodsense]

[tscii:4e0c7ab972]Sorry about that grammar - should read - We need to understand factors that "make" this difference in apportioning.

I didn't want to edit my last post to cause any confusion since there are three post that followed.

Skanthavelu,

What I have to say to your post is that some people think to achieve materially, means that you can't exist spiritually. I disagree, you can have both, and it’s just a matter of knowing how to manage it so that one doesn't interfere with the other. I am not speaking of material excessiveness. When people get like this, there is definitely a problem with lack of spirituality. I am not sure if it is the same with being spiritual with no material desire for some people, they never had the opportunity of material accumulation and for others they have had it and in abundance and chose to forgo it to become more spiritually enriched, not to say that their level of enrichment before forgoing was lower than the man who never had the opportunity to accumulate, materially. I would crown the latter man; the forgoer and give the benefit of the doubt to the former, however much sense this makes. It takes very high discipline to accumulate materially and spiritually without any infringement on the other. I would also crown this kind of man, especially if he is at an early stage of life. As you know, as we get older, we dire less materially and sensually.
[/tscii:4e0c7ab972]

[goodsense]

Duplicate deleted by GS.

[skanthan]

Oops! :oops: Let me rephrase that.

Yes, it is true that a person needs some material things in their lives, ie: what is necessary to survive in this world, and also they do need friends and family to turn to in times of crisis. But, often we find people taking more that what they really need and wasting their lives and times on worthless things some or much of which they never use, if at all. A balance is needed.

I should not say that all people are happy leading a simple spriritual life by themselves in a small house or apartment with a small number of possessions. Some people who own a big house and and several cars and have families and big jobs working from 9:00am - 5:00pm Monday through Friday are very happy and contented with their busy lives and schedules. But same time, some are not at all happy with these kinds of lives.

When I posted earlier, I was somewhat speaking from personal experience. I found that a simple life is much easier than a hard life full of disappointments, frustrations, annoyances etc..

[gayatri yanamandra]

Well said skanthan , its much easier to lead a simple life...

[chevy]

Mantras have effect on both body and mind. Sound (Acoustics) have been researched and found to have good and bad effect on health. Sound as Music is good and as noise is bad for health of mind and body.

Mantras are musical and have good effects on body and Mind.

Sanskrit have unique sound combination that have greater effects . My dear friends who read this should not be feel insulted because I said somethign great about one language. Every language has its own musical influence.

So even In English one could chant, but the effects will vary.

At begining stage we are aware of the body and mind effects only.

But at next level you will understand that this chanting helps you to keep you mind from wandering. Then in the final stage mantra chanting can help transcending.

When people do chanting with me , I tell them to be aware of the breath and the mantra patterns and in that way one is able to keep the mind in the present instead of wandering. This gives higher health benefits and spiritual benfits too. yeah ..

[skanthan]

Well said skanthan , its much easier to lead a simple life...

Thank you, gayatri! :)

[goodsense]

It is easier, but sometimes not all have that choice. We can't make choices at certain stage of life - life that has been mapped out for us. Some people have an easier life mapped out for them; it's not by choice. Others have mapped out for them to cross the difficult channels; otherwise, the world would not be what it is.

Like a Swami was saying on TV last night, if we spend our entire life in the forest, it would become meaningless. We must have mingling and interaction to realize everything and find inner happiness. Those who can live a simpler life at all times by choice, is not always a good escape.

So much for this digression.

[avii]

king Janaka told shuka , son of veda vyasa, that though he was a king he was still jivanmukta (liberated whilst living) and unattached to anything . he achieved this by simply understanding that, this ;meaning kingdom and body; is not mine.

he told shuka deva that if he gave up "his" kingdom and lived a life of prayer in the forest , he would still not be free from maya as he would still have to look for food and shelter at the end of the day.

he says , at any circumstance , one should give up all these ideas of "mine" to be truly free . giving up all else to live a solitude life is not nessesary as it all depends on the mind and the realisation that "this" 9is not mine.

[avii]

so a simple life is not easier than any other

[pradheep]

A balance is needed.

Dear skanth, Good sense and Avii and others,

What matters is inner freedom. There is no problem with materialism. The problem is with bondage. Most of the people misunderstand attachment. To be unattached does not mean dislike. Unattached means to be free from bondage. This means you are not depended on a "thing". Whether it is there are not, you are still happy. The unconditional happiness (bliss) is freedom.

Without having this attitude, a person suffers whether he is in a forest or driving a BMW. Because right from childhood we have been conditioned to be happy based on things and people. Vairagya is to be free from conditions.

This is why Janaka's story is often quoated. He is a king , yet he has inner freedom. He is not bonded to anything. Vice versa there can be a monk in forest, who has no inner freedom and then being in the forest has no purpose.

Krishna is another example.

what matters is the inner freedom. With that inner freedom one can be anywhere in any form and it does not matter.
Attaining this inner freedom is the purpose of spiritual sadhana.

[avii]

your underatanding inh these things never ceases to amaze me.
i have pondered on these topics at great lenghts and then you come and clear all doubt in a few lines , good work

[skanthan]

No problem with materialism, bondage, detachment

Dear Pradheep,

What you said is indeed true. There is nothing wrong with having material objects for personal enjoyment. It is only when we become so attached to that object it becomes a problem. When a person has this thing all the time with them, they become really attached to and dependant on it and if it is lost, that person will be extremely miserable and unable to move on in their day to day life. It is Lord Buddha who stated that one of the causes of misery in this world is attachment and bondage. I have learned in recent years to be happy with what I have, not to think about what I don't have, but, would like to have and forget about what I once had and accept that it is gone and move on. I am of the understanding that material objects never last forever and that sometimes in life, one has to part with things which they had/enjoyed in the past, part with old friends and loved ones and accept change. I have learned a long time back that change is sometimes good.

[goodsense]

:wink: :D

[pradheep]

you are right skanthan,
Attachment denies reality. The reality of "things" is that they change. The nature of the mind is to cling on to the past or anxious about future. It is never in the present (acceptance). Acceptance does not mean to ignore or "pay no attention". Acceptance is to have the wisdom to understand the reality of "things". Mind has the quality to blame others and find fault in others. Wisdom is to have the holistic view.

But to obtain this wisdom one needs to purify the mind. The six impurities of mind are- Jealousy, pride, illusion, delusion, anger and greed. These have to be removed to have the holistic view.

[Rohit]

What is Happiness?

Happiness is the term or concept that describes very subjective, but essentially an emotional experience. However, in most instances, happiness for one comes at the cost of someone's misery. There is no absolute state that truly describes happiness; neither such a state is universally attainable, for it is convoluted with the feelings involving satisfaction, rapture, blessedness, bliss, tranquillity and a host of such personalised sentiments, having only subjective significance. When synthesised, they only result into chaos of emotions that have no pragmatic value to the overall development of the wider society.

1) Satisfaction comes when one ceases to strive for something that one doesn't have.

2) Rapture or joy comes when one succeeds in securing every tangible and/or intangible things that one ever desired or wished for.

3) Blessedness comes when one gets the blessing from the one who can truly bless.

4) Bliss comes when one ceases to discern the difference between bondage (slavery/enslavement) and freedom (independence), between corruption and honesty, between delusion and reality, between dissatisfaction and satisfaction, between fallacies and factual/logical/absolute truths, between false and true, between greed and generosity, between imbecility and intelligence, between jealously (rivalry, restlessness, resentfulness etc.) and tranquillity (calmness, peacefulness etc.), between loss and gain, between pain and joy, between suffering and happiness, between wrong and right; and thus, the difference between countless contrasting and conflicting sentiments and situations. In essence, it is an attempt to attain a mental state that is completely impounded by a broad detachment from the reality.

5) Tranquillity comes when there is peace, which rarely comes without shutting the entire operating system down.

Only if one can discern, none of the above, when synthesised, would satisfy the necessary and sufficient condition for universal, lasting happiness.

However, a principled, moral life with right understanding, right orientation of thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration; accompanied with the ability to acquire and impart valid knowledge; all these, when combined, constitute the necessary and sufficient condition that would yield into self-actualising individuals. These are very fundamental requirements of human behavioural and cognitive endowments that are absolutely essential for the overall development of the society in general. Generally, the happiness of an individual lacks these ethical directions; and therefore, it inherently carries egocentric propensities not only to conflict with the rights, happiness and the overall development of the others, but also those of the whole society.

[goodsense]

I guess I should take that word "happiness" back. What I was referring to is "liberation" in all circumstances. Should have corrected it earlier after reading Pradeep's second to last post and reflecting on Dr. Doobay's talk last Saturday night on CTS in addition to that from a Swami just before, on the same channel. I guess Avil said it to some extent too.

[Rohit]

What is Happiness?

Happiness is the term or concept that describes very subjective, but essentially an emotional experience. However, in most instances, happiness for one comes at the cost of someone's misery. There is no absolute state that truly describes happiness; neither such a state is universally attainable, for it is convoluted with the feelings involving satisfaction, rapture, blessedness, bliss, tranquillity and a host of such personalised sentiments, having only subjective significance. When synthesised, they only result into chaos of emotions that have no pragmatic value to the overall development of the wider society.

1) Satisfaction comes when one ceases to strive for something that one doesn't have.

2) Rapture or joy comes when one succeeds in securing every tangible and/or intangible things that one ever desired or wished for.

3) Blessedness comes when one gets the blessing from the one who can truly bless.

4) Bliss comes when one ceases to discern the difference between bondage (slavery/enslavement) and freedom (independence), between corruption and honesty, between delusion and reality, between dissatisfaction and satisfaction, between fallacies and factual/logical/absolute truths, between false and true, between greed and generosity, between imbecility and intelligence, between jealously (rivalry, restlessness, resentfulness etc.) and tranquillity (calmness, peacefulness etc.), between loss and gain, between pain and joy, between suffering and happiness, between wrong and right; and thus, the difference between countless contrasting and conflicting sentiments and situations. In essence, it is an attempt to attain a mental state that is completely impounded by a broad detachment from the reality.

5) Tranquillity comes when there is peace, which rarely comes without shutting the entire operating system down.

Only if one can discern, none of the above, when synthesised, would satisfy the necessary and sufficient condition for universal, lasting happiness.

However, a principled, moral life with right understanding, right orientation of thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration; accompanied with the ability to acquire and impart valid knowledge; all these, when combined, constitute the necessary and sufficient condition that would yield into self-actualising individuals. These are very fundamental requirements of human behavioural and cognitive endowments that are absolutely essential for the overall development of the society in general. Generally, the happiness of an individual lacks these ethical directions; and therefore, it inherently carries egocentric propensities not only to conflict with the rights, happiness and the overall development of the others, but also those of the whole society.

[goodsense]

[tscii:b5d58149d7]Rohit,

Where did you get your definition of "Happiness" or how did you come up with such definitions?

As a non-religious person and a non-believer in the almighty, I expected you to find this definition in a basic dictionary. You also seem to base most of your arguments - statements on psychology, which may have been your major. Most of your arguments could not be made without making mention of the word “cognition”. If so, is this fair? This may sound confrontational, but I really need to know.
[/tscii:b5d58149d7]

[SRS]

However, in most instances, happiness for one comes at the cost of someone's misery.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Rohit]

However, in most instances, happiness for one comes at the cost of someone's misery.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Rohit]

Where did you get your definition of "Happiness" or how did you come up with such definitions?Hello good-sense,
If you are not happy with my definition of 'Happiness', I am more than happy to accept your definition of 'Happiness' with precise terms that you may find the most suitable. Is that OK with you my dear goodsense?

[SRS]

However, in most instances, happiness for one comes at the cost of someone's misery.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Okay, laughter aside, I am not in agreement with the definition. Can you elaborate? I think the above is a better description of sadism, which is an adverse psychological condition. So you have stated an exception and not the rule.

[Rohit]

:lol: :lol: :lol: Okay, laughter aside, I am not in agreement with the definition. Can you elaborate?Before that, I would like to know the tendency in you that triggered the sarcasm in the first place. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[SRS]

:lol: :lol: :lol: Okay, laughter aside, I am not in agreement with the definition. Can you elaborate?Before that, I would like to know the tendency in you that triggered the sarcasm in the first place. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Well, it is quite an exaggeration to assert that every form of happiness comes at the expense of another's suffering.

[Rohit]

Well, it is quite an exaggeration to assert that every form of happiness comes at the expense of another's suffering.Then, what do you think of the Mogul and British invasions of India?

[bulb_mani]

Happiness is just goo goo and ga ga nothing more nothing less... just enjoy :lol:

[Rohit]

Happiness is just goo goo and ga ga nothing more nothing less... just enjoy :lol:Then, what do you think of the Mogul and British invasions of India?

[SRS]

Well, it is quite an exaggeration to assert that every form of happiness comes at the expense of another's suffering.Then, what do you think of the Mogul and British invasions of India?

Are you trying to imply that the British and Moghuls were happier as a result of the invasion? In that case, we must consider the motivations for the invasions in the first place. The primary motivation you will agree was material gain - e.g. natural resources, precious metals, etc. But I question the value of this material gain, especially since (I) the Moghuls no longer exist, and (II) the British have lost most of their empire. That is my view of things.

[Rohit]

Well, it is quite an exaggeration to assert that every form of happiness comes at the expense of another's suffering.Then, what do you think of the Mogul and British invasions of India?

Are you trying to imply that the British and Moghuls were happier as a result of the invasion? In that case, we must consider the motivations for the invasions in the first place. The primary motivation you will agree was material gain - e.g. natural resources, precious metals, etc. But I question the value of this material gain, especially since (I) the Moghuls no longer exist, and (II) the British have lost most of their empire. That is my view of things.
No matter what your views (conceptions) are about happiness; they came to gain happiness of their conceptions. Most (with some intellect) would do the same. Don't you understand that?

[SRS]

Well, it is quite an exaggeration to assert that every form of happiness comes at the expense of another's suffering.Then, what do you think of the Mogul and British invasions of India?

Are you trying to imply that the British and Moghuls were happier as a result of the invasion? In that case, we must consider the motivations for the invasions in the first place. The primary motivation you will agree was material gain - e.g. natural resources, precious metals, etc. But I question the value of this material gain, especially since (I) the Moghuls no longer exist, and (II) the British have lost most of their empire. That is my view of things.
No matter what your views (conceptions) are about happiness; they came to gain happiness of their conceptions. Most (with some intellect) would do the same. Don't you understand that?

It is only the false pursuit of happiness that leads to suffering. In this case, the intellect fails to properly discriminate between the various conflicting conceptions of happiness. This is essentially a reductionist process. When one designs a bridge, for example, it is unlikely he will choose plastic as the material of choice. He also realizes the bridge will span a finite length. Even though, theorectically, he can easily concieve of a plastic bridge that will go on forever. Similarly, most people, whether we are talking of individuals, or entire organizations, such as the British and Moghuls, must build plastic bridges before realizing the foolishness of their technique. Ashoka realized this - and Buddhism has thrived ever since. The Moghuls never renounced violence - they vanished for good. And of course, Gandhi achieved much success purely by non-violent means. So it is very clear that violence does not belong in the domain of true happiness. Even if the violent approach is carefully thought out, it will eventually collapse on itself. The Soviet Union was a superpower but collapsed due to the weight of the rebellion against its tyrannical rule. So why is the violent approach still favored in politics? It produces short-term results that are very favourable. One can ignore the long-term consequences for some time. However, it is still a false pursuit.

[Rohit]

Well, it is quite an exaggeration to assert that every form of happiness comes at the expense of another's suffering.Then, what do you think of the Mogul and British invasions of India?

Are you trying to imply that the British and Moghuls were happier as a result of the invasion? In that case, we must consider the motivations for the invasions in the first place. The primary motivation you will agree was material gain - e.g. natural resources, precious metals, etc. But I question the value of this material gain, especially since (I) the Moghuls no longer exist, and (II) the British have lost most of their empire. That is my view of things.
No matter what your views (conceptions) are about happiness; they came to gain happiness of their conceptions. Most (with some intellect) would do the same. Don't you understand that?

It is only the false pursuit of happiness that leads to suffering. In this case, the intellect fails to properly discriminate between the various conflicting conceptions of happiness. This is essentially a reductionist process. When one designs a bridge, for example, it is unlikely he will choose plastic as the material of choice. He also realizes the bridge will span a finite length. Even though, theorectically, he can easily concieve of a plastic bridge that will go on forever. Similarly, most people, whether we are talking of individuals, or entire organizations, such as the British and Moghuls, must build plastic bridges before realizing the foolishness of their technique. Ashoka realized this - and Buddhism has thrived ever since. The Moghuls never renounced violence - they vanished for good. And of course, Gandhi achieved much success purely by non-violent means. So it is very clear that violence does not belong in the domain of true happiness. Even if the violent approach is carefully thought out, it will eventually collapse on itself. The Soviet Union was a superpower but collapsed due to the weight of the rebellion against its tyrannical rule. So why is the violent approach still favored in politics? It produces short-term results that are very favourable. One can ignore the long-term consequences for some time. However, it is still a false pursuit.

.............However, in most instances, happiness for one comes at the cost of someone's misery......................
............
............
2) Rapture or joy comes when one succeeds in securing every tangible and/or intangible things that one ever desired or wished for.
.........
.........
Generally, the happiness of an individual lacks these ethical directions; and therefore, it inherently carries egocentric propensities not only to conflict with the rights, happiness and the overall development of the others, but also those of the whole society.

[avii]

why do we always blow everthing out of proportion here, happiness is a state of mind /heart where as the heart/mind becomes free from all troubles at that point in time.

in my view, true happiness is a taste of liberation.

[Rohit]

why do we always blow everthing out of proportion here, happiness is a state of mind /heart where as the heart/mind becomes free from all troubles at that point in time.

in my view, true happiness is a taste of liberation.


1) Satisfaction comes when one ceases to strive for something that one doesn't have.

...............

...............

4) Bliss comes when one ceases to discern the difference between bondage (slavery/enslavement) and freedom (independence), between corruption and honesty, between delusion and reality, between dissatisfaction and satisfaction, between fallacies and factual/logical/absolute truths, between false and true, between greed and generosity, between imbecility and intelligence, between jealously (rivalry, restlessness, resentfulness etc.) and tranquillity (calmness, peacefulness etc.), between loss and gain, between pain and joy, between suffering and happiness, between wrong and right; and thus, the difference between countless contrasting and conflicting sentiments and situations. In essence, it is an attempt to attain a mental state that is completely impounded by a broad detachment from the reality.

[avii]

to rohit , all you are doing is the same as google. you find similar words in my posts from yours and highlight them . but the words are used in different context. i am speaking about a glimse about true liberation and you are saying that happiness is not caring about liberation and bondage.

[avii]

i do agree with some of the things you are saying but not all , a wise man will pick all the good from a conversation and leave the rest behind . so i do agree with some things that you say but not all

[Rohit]

i am speaking about a glimpse about true liberation and you are saying that happiness is not caring about liberation and bondage.
I am not saying that, but that is what bliss means in real terms, I am afraid.

Anyway, please define true liberation of your conception; and then exhibit some of the characteristics (show glimpses) of true liberation of your conception.


........a wise man will pick all the good from a conversation and leave the rest behind.
Again, please define good of your conception; and then exhibit some of the characteristics of goodness of your conception.

Anyway, that is what is called subjectivism. A wise man should not overlook the factual reality around him by picking up only the subjective things that appeal to him; and ignore those that don't. If one, either unintentionally or intentionally, does that; one invariably traps oneself into the bondage of subjectivism, I am afraid.

[SRS]

Well, it is quite an exaggeration to assert that every form of happiness comes at the expense of another's suffering.Then, what do you think of the Mogul and British invasions of India?

Are you trying to imply that the British and Moghuls were happier as a result of the invasion? In that case, we must consider the motivations for the invasions in the first place. The primary motivation you will agree was material gain - e.g. natural resources, precious metals, etc. But I question the value of this material gain, especially since (I) the Moghuls no longer exist, and (II) the British have lost most of their empire. That is my view of things.
No matter what your views (conceptions) are about happiness; they came to gain happiness of their conceptions. Most (with some intellect) would do the same. Don't you understand that?

It is only the false pursuit of happiness that leads to suffering. In this case, the intellect fails to properly discriminate between the various conflicting conceptions of happiness. This is essentially a reductionist process. When one designs a bridge, for example, it is unlikely he will choose plastic as the material of choice. He also realizes the bridge will span a finite length. Even though, theorectically, he can easily concieve of a plastic bridge that will go on forever. Similarly, most people, whether we are talking of individuals, or entire organizations, such as the British and Moghuls, must build plastic bridges before realizing the foolishness of their technique. Ashoka realized this - and Buddhism has thrived ever since. The Moghuls never renounced violence - they vanished for good. And of course, Gandhi achieved much success purely by non-violent means. So it is very clear that violence does not belong in the domain of true happiness. Even if the violent approach is carefully thought out, it will eventually collapse on itself. The Soviet Union was a superpower but collapsed due to the weight of the rebellion against its tyrannical rule. So why is the violent approach still favored in politics? It produces short-term results that are very favourable. One can ignore the long-term consequences for some time. However, it is still a false pursuit.

.............However, in most instances, happiness for one comes at the cost of someone's misery......................
............
............
2) Rapture or joy comes when one succeeds in securing every tangible and/or intangible things that one ever desired or wished for.
.........
.........
Generally, the happiness of an individual lacks these ethical directions; and therefore, it inherently carries egocentric propensities not only to conflict with the rights, happiness and the overall development of the others, but also those of the whole society.


It just goes to show, there is no absolute definition of happiness. Short-term happiness is more about pleasure; whereas long-term happiness has more to do with stability. I do not think long-term happiness comes at the cost of anyone's suffering. Like I said, long-term happiness implies stability. Colonialism did not last; the foundations were unstable from the beginning.

By the way, just because the British had an "empire" does not mean they were overhelmed by joy. Do you know about the condition of British society at that time... the larger mass of British citizenry lived in ajbect poverty. The so-called "Industrial Revolution" that transformed the British society into a "giant" came at the cost of the slave labor of millions of children and women. So I do not think the greater masses of British citizenry experienced long term happiness as a result of colonizing India. Most of them were too poor to even feel the impact.

Now you will argue, colonization of India came at the expense of developing the British society. That is not true. Britain controlled 2/3 of all nations on the globe at one point. The reasons for the lack of development of British society came from within the British society itself - more to do with a lack of available free public education, and lack of much needed political reform.

[Rohit]

It just goes to show, there is no absolute definition of happiness.
That is exactly what I said:


Happiness is the term or concept that describes very subjective, but essentially an emotional experience. However, in most instances, happiness for one comes at the cost of someone's misery. There is no absolute state that truly describes happiness; neither such a state is universally attainable, for it is convoluted with the feelings involving satisfaction, rapture, blessedness, bliss, tranquillity and a host of such personalised sentiments, having only subjective significance. When synthesised, they only result into chaos of emotions that have no pragmatic value to the overall development of the wider society.

[SRS]

It just goes to show, there is no absolute definition of happiness.
That is exactly what I said:


Happiness is the term or concept that describes very subjective, but essentially an emotional experience. However, in most instances, happiness for one comes at the cost of someone's misery. There is no absolute state that truly describes happiness; neither such a state is universally attainable, for it is convoluted with the feelings involving satisfaction, rapture, blessedness, bliss, tranquillity and a host of such personalised sentiments, having only subjective significance. When synthesised, they only result into chaos of emotions that have no pragmatic value to the overall development of the wider society.

While I would agree that one cannot give a precise definition of happiness, there are neverthless certain objective criteria to validate that "happiness" does indeed exist. This is most evident in the case of pleasure, what I referred to as short-term happiness before. Let us say a small fellow is given a cone of ice cream. If electrodes were placed on his scalp while he consumed the ice cream, and the pulses were mapped in the before and after case, then we will see a consequent increase in the frequency of the signals emitted therein in the latter case. Which implies more neurons are firing than normal. What I do not know is who suffers as a result of his ice cream consumption. :lol:

[goodsense]

But it is the happiness that is spoken about, that brings sadness. Think about it :(

"What I do not know is who suffers as a result of his ice cream consumption." The body and food as I understand it, are "tamas". And these together bring sickness and hence sadness.

How do all this relate to the chanting of mantras. I think we have all strayed.

[SRS]

But it is the happiness that is spoken about, that brings sadness. Think about it :(

What do you mean by "the happiness that is spoken about?"


The body and food as I understand it, are "tamas". And these together bring sickness and hence sadness.

Actually there is some (controversial) scientific theory which says that less food consumption will result in less production of free radicals (free radicals being a product of metabolism). Free radicals supposedly accelerate the process of cell death. Therefore, according to this theory, one will longer the less he eats.

That is, in my view, extreme science. One can never leave his home - this will ensure he never gets into a motor accident. Life is not fun if you don't take certain risks. Certainly, an over-indulgence of the appetite will bring grief at some point. But to deny the physiological neccessity of food, is, in my opinion, a rather gross exaggeration of a silly kind.

[goodsense]

I was referring to the worldy happiness and using food (the ice-cream) as an example. The wordly happiness here would be as you put it, "an over-indulgence of the appetite" (the person who lives to eat and not eat to live). I wasn't referring to necessities. Nothing that is necessary in life gives worldy happiness. But speaking of the body being tamas, I was also thinking about the sensual desires.

[Rohit]

What I do not know is who suffers as a result of his ice cream consumption.
The 'Self' that feels happy by eating fatty foods and eventually ends up in utter misery. :lol: :lol: :lol: :D :) :thumbsup:

[Rohit]

How do all this relate to the chanting of mantras. I think we have all strayed.I guess, this was a breaktime from audio pleasure (Obviously yet another kind of sensory/sensual pleasure) :D :) :thumbsup:

[pradheep]

over-indulgence
Aananda (unconditional happiness) is the very own nature of the Self. But the Ego tries to be in that state by seeking it externally, through the senses. And it wants non-stop sensual pleasure (addiction) which results in misery. This is conditional Ananda or happiness.

This happiness , as we are all discussing, is derived by misery only. This misery is to the body and also to others. Ice cream is a misery to the tongue, to the digestive juices in the stomach, it is an overload for the liver etc. Then who enjoys it?. It is the Ego that enjoys it at the expense of the body.

The same ice cold, the Ego does not want on the external body. Then it needs a blanket. But it can chill the tongue and enjoy that pain as "Happiness".

http://sakthifoundation.org/foodlikes.htm

"The experiences of pain and pleasure have been described as the extreme ends of a continuum. Now a study from Massachusetts General Hospital (MGH) supports that concept by finding that brain structures previously shown to react to rewarding experiences are also activated, although in distinctive ways, by pain. The result, appears in the December 6 issue of Neuron, 2001."

Ego wants to maintain it's dominance and for that it does not care what happens to the body. This results in over eating (exploitation of senses) resulting in obesity and accompanying diseases and not to mention free radical generation.

So before eating it is good to chant Mantras.

Why to chant to mantras before eating?. Chanting mantras relaxes the mind. With a relaxed mind when we eat there are so many advantages. One is we enjoy every mouthful of the food that is nourishing to the mind and also to the body.

Our five and half year old son happily chants mantras before eating but does not like the idea of "not" watching television while eating. We tell him while eating the mind and body should be co-ordinated. If not what happens is that the food goes in mechanically and we over eat (SRS- excess calories).

The American Academy of Pediatrics suggests that children while watching television, often snack on unhealthy food choices. Two articles in the October issue of The Journal of Pediatrics describe the relationship between television watching and childhood obesity.

Our Indian tradition teaches us not to even talk while eating (we used to hate our grandma's for that).

Look at the wisdom of Ayurveda which says that when the mind is depressed then the individual eats more sweets and when the mind is stressed the individual eats more spicy hot foods.

So to eat a balanced food , one has to have a relaxed mind. For that Chanting of Mantra helps. Look at our beautiful tradition of chanting

" Brahmarpanam brahma havir
brahmagnau brahmana hutam
brahmaiva tena gantavyam
brahma-karma-samadhina.


Brahman is offering Brahman through Brahman for the sake of Brahman. He who thinks that the act of offering as Brahman, the sacrificer as Brahman, the fire into which the sacrifice is made as Brahman and is thus fully engrossed in Consciousness obtains Brahman Itself.

This not only relaxes the mind , but also brings the mind to the ultimate reality.

[goodsense]

"Look at the wisdom of Ayurveda which says that when the mind is depressed then the individual eats more sweets and when the mind is stressed the individual eats more spicy hot foods. " I have personally experienced this and it all leads to weight gaining and more annoyance. I am happy that I have started to control it being so conscious of it. I know I still have a long way to go.

[goodsense]

"Look at the wisdom of Ayurveda which says that when the mind is depressed then the individual eats more sweets and when the mind is stressed the individual eats more spicy hot foods". I have personally experienced this and it all leads to weight gaining and more annoyance. I am happy that I have started to control it being so conscious of it. I know I still have a long way to go. Once you know how to curb the depression, everything else is manageable. It's all to do with some past horrible experience which many people here are aware of.

[bulb_mani]

"Look at the wisdom of Ayurveda which says that when the mind is depressed then the individual eats more sweets and when the mind is stressed the individual eats more spicy hot foods. " I have personally experienced this and it all leads to weight gaining and more annoyance. I am happy that I have started to control it being so conscious of it. I know I still have a long way to go.

Ayurveda rocks... thats true... thats why even bodybuilders use chromium to control sugar craving when on heavy regimen as depression is something common then.

Lolita Gogo :D :P

[goodsense]

Well my case has been much more serious that this. One day I would be eating a large chocolate bar, the next day standing in front of the stove stirring custard and the next day stirring rice pudding (what you call keer in India). And these would not be in small quantity. And I would be surprise if any is left for the next day. In addition to that, when you are in that state, you lock yourself away (for a number of reasons), which means less oxygen and more carbon-dioxide while over-using your mental faculty due to the magnitude of work while sitting at a desk for long hours and living and breathing in papers). Imagine the condition. :oops: Some people laughed at me which has added to my aggravation. How sad. :( Thank God I was able to move away from that condition although I still struggle. :(

Who or what is Lolita Gogo?

[pradheep]

Psychopharmacology (Berl). 1998 Apr;136(3):272-83.Click here to read Links
"Depression" increases "craving" for sweet rewards in animal and human models of depression and craving.

Centre for Substance Abuse Research, Department of Psychology, University of Wales, Swansea, UK. p.willner@swansea.ac.uk

[Rohit]

Who or what is happy and who or what plunges into misery?

The answer is available through the understanding of five aggregates, which are:

The Aggregate of Matter: This is constituted by solidity, fluidity, gaseous, heat and motion (trough space and time)

The Aggregate of Feelings Or Sensations: These are categorised as pleasant, unpleasant or neutral, and they arise through the consciousness of physical and mental conditions, which in turn, is conditioned by the perceptions of objective world and other sensory perceptions including visual, sound, smell, taste, tactile sensations and other mental constructs etc.

Aggregate of Perception: The faculty that enables mental recognition of something by picking out its characteristics or experience.

The Aggregate of Mental Formation Or Constructs: These involve volition, intentions, determination heedlessness, intuition, desire, ignorance, aversion and finally the most detrimental idea of the Atman/Soul/Self.

The Aggregate of Consciousness: This is a state that is aware of all the four aggregates that supervene out of their conjunction, but it is not and cannot be independent of the four aggregates, as there is no arising of Consciousness without conditions. Consciousness cannot exist separately from the other four aggregates and just as they are impermanent and constantly changing, so is Consciousness; and what is constructed as the Atman/Soul/Self, a sort of fixed, central command centre and immutable point of reference is, then nothing but an illusion.

:) :thumbsup:

[pradheep]

Good sense this might help you to overcome the cravings for sweets

http://sakthifoundation.org/tongue.htm
http://sakthifoundation.org/foodaware.htm

[Rohit]

Interdependent Origination

Ignorance: This is the state in which everything is born into when entering the wheel of becoming.

Ignorance is also the root cause of the false sense of the Atman/Soul/Self, which in turn causes the desperate desire of clinging to life (immortality), which leads to:

Will to Action: Ignorance, the four aggregates giving rise to Consciousness and desires lead to will to act intentionally in a particular way (sacrifices, rituals and chanting mantras), either good or bad, which in turn leads to:

Names and Forms: A psychophysical interaction between organism and the world, which leads to:

Sense Impressions (or conducts): The information about the world derived through the five senses and the mind, which leads to the origination of feelings and emotions, which in turn, leads to:

Attachment: Attachment to things, ideas, names and forms, ideals etc. in the world trough false desires that can never be fully satisfied or fulfilled give rise to suffering, which in turn condemns it to:

Regeneration: The inevitable results of which are ageing and finally the death

And the regeneration of new generations from the past generations continues the whole cycle of being and becoming all over again.

:) :thumbsup:

[pradheep]

[tscii:228afe70d4]Ignorance: This is the state in which everything is born .


Ignorance is also the root cause of the false sense of identity (Ego) instead the real “Self”. Ego, which in turn causes the desperate desire of clinging to life (trying to extend life miserably in hospital with all plastic tubes and wires hanging around), which leads to:

Will to Action: Ignorance, the four aggregates giving rise to desires lead to will to act intentionally in a particular way (destroying environment, create atom bombs, apply pesticides to kill other living beings), either good or bad, which in turn leads to:

Names and Forms: A psychophysical interaction between organism and the world, which leads to:

Sense Impressions (or conducts): The information about the world derived through the five senses and the mind, which leads to the origination of feelings and emotions, which in turn, leads to:

Attachment: Attachment to things, ideas, names and forms, ideals etc. in the world trough false desires that can never be fully satisfied or fulfilled give rise to suffering, which in turn condemns it to:

Regeneration: The inevitable results of which are ageing and finally the death

And the regeneration of new generations from the past generations continues the whole cycle of being and becoming all over again.

Be born again and again, miserably and use the intellect to confuse others and create fragmented views., , until one stops identifying the Ego and understand the real nature is the “Self”.
[/tscii:228afe70d4]

[goodsense]

Thanks for those links Pradeep. I started to read and find they are lengthy. Will continue in about three weeks time. I am sure I will find them useful. I hope my doctor will be happy at last. He feels he was not doing enough to help.

[Rohit]

Be born again and again, miserably and use the intellect to confuse others and create fragmented views., , until one stops identifying the Ego and understand the real nature is the “Self”.
This is what is called suffering through the process of superposition. It is better to keep complete silence than to exhibit utter ignorance. :lol: :D :) :thumbsup:

[Rohit]

Interdependent Origination

Ignorance: This is the state in which everything is born into when entering the wheel of becoming.

Ignorance is also the root cause of the false sense of the Atman/Soul/Self, which in turn causes the desperate desire of clinging to life (immortality), which leads to:

Will to Action: Ignorance, the four aggregates giving rise to Consciousness and desires lead to will to act intentionally in a particular way (sacrifices, rituals and chanting mantras), either good or bad, which in turn leads to:

Names and Forms: A psychophysical interaction between organism and the world, which leads to:

Sense Impressions (or conducts): The information about the world derived through the five senses and the mind, which leads to the origination of feelings and emotions, which in turn, leads to:

Attachment: Attachment to things, ideas, names and forms, ideals etc. in the world trough false desires that can never be fully satisfied or fulfilled give rise to suffering, which in turn condemns it to:

Regeneration: The inevitable results of which are ageing and finally the death

And the regeneration of new generations from the past generations continues the whole cycle of being and becoming all over again.

:) :thumbsup:

[pradheep]

Thanks for those links Pradeep. I started to read and find they are lengthy.

Good sense thank you. I tell my friends that to get unhealthy habits we take only few moments but to correct them we take very long time. Similarly only few instructions are only needed for unhealthy actions but for healthy actions we need lengthy lectures. Please read similar thoughts in my post in the thread DO WE CONSIDER GOD AS HUMAN?