Vande Maatharam!

[Surya]

वन्दे मातरम्
सुजलां सुफलां मलयजशीतलाम्
बहुबलधारिणीं नमामि तारिणीम्
रिपुदलवारिणीं मातरम्॥

सुजलां सुफलां मलयजशीतलाम्
सस्य श्यामलां मातरंम् .
शुभ्र ज्योत्सनाम् पुलकित यामिनीम्
फुल्ल कुसुमित द्रुमदलशोभिनीम्,
सुहासिनीं सुमधुर भाषिणीम् .
सुखदां वरदां मातरम् ॥

सप्त कोटि कन्ठ कलकल निनाद कराले
द्विसप्त कोटि भुजैर्ध्रत खरकरवाले
के बोले मा तुमी अबले
बहुबल धारिणीम् नमामि तारिणीम्
रिपुदलवारिणीम् मातरम् ॥

तुमि विद्या तुमि धर्म, तुमि ह्रदि तुमि मर्म
त्वं हि प्राणाः शरीरे
बाहुते तुमि मा शक्ति,
हृदये तुमि मा भक्ति,
तोमारै प्रतिमा गडि मन्दिरे-मन्दिरे ॥

त्वं हि दुर्गा दशप्रहरणधारिणी
कमला कमलदल विहारिणी
वाणी विद्यादायिनी, नमामि त्वाम्
नमामि कमलां अमलां अतुलाम्
सुजलां सुफलां मातरम् ॥

श्यामलां सरलां सुस्मितां भूषिताम्
धरणीं भरणीं मातरम् ॥

VANDE MATARAM......The song that deserved to be the national anthem...8-)

[P_R]

Could you post the meaning please ? I know it only roughly.

From the wikipedia link on Vande Mataram http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vande_Mataram I understand that only the first two stanzas of the song were adopted as the National Song, as later stanzas were about the 'contreversial' worshipping the Nation as a Goddess.

So if those parts were left out, I don't understand how the present National Song goes against the faith. It would be great to the have the meaning of the lines.

Apparently this isn't the first time the controversy is erupting. I quote Tagore's letter to Netaji (1937): (wikipedia again)

"The core of Vande Mataram is a hymn to goddess Durga: this is so plain that there can be no debate about it. Of course Bankim does show Durga to be inseparably united with Bengal in the end, but no Mussulman [Muslim] can be expected patriotically to worship the ten-handed deity as 'Swadesh' [the nation]. ..................
When Bengali Mussulmans show signs of stubborn fanaticism, we regard these as intolerable. When we too copy them and make unreasonable demands, it will be self-defeating."

[P_R]

oops there is meaning down there in the link itself. :oops: translated by Sri Aurobindo

[Surya]

Yeah, i don't know u read it or not, but a while back i posted an article from the Indian Express I think...which explored the charecters who opposed the song then.

Here it is again:
http://www.newindpress.com/Column.asp?ID=IE620060823095651

Remember not all muslims opposed this song back then, and not all muslims do so now. Infact, I read a news article today on the BBC site which claimed that many muslim institutions did sing the song. :D

The annoying part is that all the Tamil Ministers (muslims or not) boycotted this song today!! -according to BBC. :banghead: If this isn't the pinnacle of minorty appeasement, then I don't know what is..:lol:

But we degress..:P

[kannannn]

Surya, so we meet again :D . I appreciate your enthusiasm to inculcate patriotism (if we needed inculcation), but why are you so steadfastly holding on to Vande Mataram? The history of the song itself is mired in controversy. Please take a look at this:
http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl1601/16010940.htm

[P_R]

Oh I didn't read it. I shall go through the link (though I always tend to discount Gurumurthy's writings).

I read the translation. I don't find anything objectionable in the first two stanzas. It is only in stanzas 4-5 that there are references is to Hindu Gods. IMO even that is not necessarily objectionable (an Egyptian Muslim does not disown his pyramids) but I can understand the grounds of objection when considering the song in entirety. In its present form, none whatsoever.

My reading is, someone is kicking up the controversy to score some points to consolidate himself as a community leader.

[Lambretta]

U guys may be right in ur views abt the controversy in the particular stanzas of this song.....but wat amazes (& to sum extent even amuses) me is how come ther r chaps out ther in our country, who r crying out loud NOW abt this 1 song being controversial & objectionable to being sung publicly etc. & getting it into the media....after silently accepting it ALL THESE DECADES! :roll: :huh:

[Badri]

U guys may be right in ur views abt the controversy in the particular stanzas of this song.....but wat amazes (& to sum extent even amuses) me is how come ther r chaps out ther in our country, who r crying out loud NOW abt this 1 song being controversial & objectionable to being sung publicly etc. & getting it into the media....after silently accepting it ALL THESE DECADES! :roll: :huh:

Bcos it was not mandatory for everyone to sing it. :roll:

[Surya]

Surya, so we meet again :D . I appreciate your enthusiasm to inculcate patriotism (if we needed inculcation), but why are you so steadfastly holding on to Vande Mataram? The history of the song itself is mired in controversy. Please take a look at this:
http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl1601/16010940.htm

Wha? :huh: All I did was post the newsbits that were related to this controvercy and now post this thread since it's the anniversery..(even though I have a hard time spelling the word :banghead: :cry: ) :huh:

Thanks for the link, will read it! :D


My reading is, someone is kicking up the controversy to score some points to consolidate himself as a community leader.

That's exactly what I thought too. Who was the Cergy head fella who opposed it again? :?

[Lambretta]

That's exactly what I thought too. Who was the Cergy head fella who opposed it again? :?
Suri, u mean Clergy! :P

[dsath]

I read the translation. I don't find anything objectionable in the first two stanzas. It is only in stanzas 4-5 that there are references is to Hindu Gods. IMO even that is not necessarily objectionable (an Egyptian Muslim does not disown his pyramids) but I can understand the grounds of objection when considering the song in entirety. In its present form, none whatsoever.

Egyptian Muslims not disowning Pyramids cannot be compared to Indian Muslims embracing Vande Matram. The Pyramids belong to a lost civilization, no Egyptian is practicing the ancient Egyptian religion. If so then they too might have controversies as we do.

As long as its one of the Dravidian parties in the throne, no other languages will be welcome (of course other than English and Tamil) in TN . I don't see anything wrong in not singing Vande Matram. Its an irony considering that probably a large number of Tamilians sang the song during the freedom movement (i believe that a majority of the INA recruits came from TN).

[Surya]

Lamby,
Same Difference! :P :lol:

-deleted-

[P_R]

Egyptian Muslims not disowning Pyramids cannot be compared to Indian Muslims embracing Vande Matram.
I now agree that the comparison is inapppropriate. I wrote that before reading the link kannann posted which gave some background info about Anandamath. I think it is essential, as Nehru said, to see the song separately from the book. And if we do that, then in the first two stanzas I don't find anything prima facie objectionable or against the tenets of the faith.

The Pyramids belong to a lost civilization, no Egyptian is practicing the ancient Egyptian religion. If so then they too might have controversies as we do. As it belongs to 'no-one' now it comfortably belongs to everyone (am I rephrasing it right ?). Coming to think of it, it provides a strong case for the universal adoption of English in India :-)


As long as its one of the Dravidian parties in the throne, no other languages will be welcome (of course other than English and Tamil) in TN . I don't see anything wrong in not singing Vande Matram. Its an irony considering that probably a large number of Tamilians sang the song during the freedom movement (i believe that a majority of the INA recruits came from TN).
This time I don't think the issue was a language issue. The TN ministers would have been directed to stay away even if the English translation were to read out.It was clearly a case of playing-it-safe just in case in ballooned into a huge problem, which would jeopardize their minority-friendly tag. Despicable, not surprising.

True, It's a disgrace how Tamil have lost their sense of Patriotism in the past few decades Come on ! Why would you say this ? In fact it is this precise argument, that I need to fully and consciously 'intergrate' with the rest of the country by speaking Hindi, that makes me relate strongly to the anger of a Muslim being asked to prove his loyalty again and again.

[rajraj]

dsath and prabhu,
For all this hype about patriotism here is something for you to think about:

One extremeist hindu group refused to salute the national tri-color because it had green in it and because green stands for islam. I remember India's Independence day very well.
We hoisted the flag and sang Bharathi's 'thaayin maNikkodi paareer' and ended the celebration with 'vazhiya senthamizh' another Bharathi composition. In fact, all the songs we sang were Mahakavi Subramanya Bharathi's compositions. No ' vandhe maatharam' or 'jana gaNa mana'.
All my school days we started the day with Bharathiyar songs and ended it with 'vazhiya senthamizh'. Bharathiyar as a freedom fighter was more popular than Tagore or Bankim Chandra Chatterji. Bharathi had translated 'vandhe maatharam' into Tamil when it praised only Bengal and later changed it to praise the whole of India. Even that was not sung in schools.
People seem to have a habit of posting what they like without reading history. I see that some name calling has been edited out from a post. Good for him! He should understand the ground realities in Tamilnadu and not post anything hateful and provocative.
I very rarely post in 'hate mongering' threads like this. Somethings need to be clarified so that there is no repetition.
If I posted what I learnt from history and what I remember from my own experience in India it will upset a lot. I hope I am not forced to do it. It has to do with what happened after the assassination of Mahathma Gandhi!
Keep the debate civil! :)

[kannannn]

Come on ! Why would you say this ? In fact it is this precise argument, that I need to fully and consciously 'intergrate' with the rest of the country by speaking Hindi, that makes me relate strongly to the anger of a Muslim being asked to prove his loyalty again and again.
This was precisely my response when Surya started a debate on this topic previously:
http://mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?p=710611#710611
Unfortunately, the parameters of patriotrism narrows by the day and anyone voicing their dissent against the parameters is branded unpatriotic. Be it the response to terrorism or the issue of Vande Mataram, the basic idea is the same. I am reminded of Nazi war criminal Hermann Goering's words:
"Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. ... Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_G%C3%B6ring

[Surya]

-deleted-

[dsath]

Ah Surya, i talked abt the irony of religion politics. As Rajraj said, in govt schools across the state student sing Neerarum' which praises mother India for ages. Is this not sufficient enough to show our patriotism.....or will it be unpatriotic to sing praises of Mother India in Tamil?
Honestly its time some one came up with a book '101 ways by which BJP tries to stay in the limelight' in the lines of '101 ways in which the CIA tried to kill Fidel Castro' (i am not sure if i got the name of the book right).

[Surya]

Uh..I was talkin abt the politicians? :)

In that case there should also be a book called "1001 ways of How Congress Practices Minority Appeasement." :thumbsup: :P

[P_R]

Dear Rajraj,

I did not ever say that singing or/not singing Vande Mataram is the yardstick for patriotism. In the last lines of my post (which kannannn has quoted in his post), I have expressed my distaste of demanding any proof from anyone of it.

All I was trying to say is, the first two stanzas, as I see them, do not seem to have anything against the tenets of the faith. So I concluded that some religious leader (?) is kicking up a controversy just to consolidate his position. I classiify it as a mere political stunt.


Bharathi had translated 'vandhe maatharam' into Tamil when it praised only Bengal and later changed it to praise the whole of India. Oh ! Didn't know that. The version I read (Aurobindo's translation in wikipedia) seemed very pan-Indian. But it is quite likely that the reference in the novel was to Bengal.

On a different note, I think expressions like 'Vande Mataram' have grown beyond whatever parochial contexts they may have had their origin in.


People seem to have a habit of posting what they like without reading history. I could be guilty as charged. For instance I knew little about the background of Anandamath before reading kannann's link. In the light of that my opinions/claims are likely to change (in terms of both intensity and content). That is the very idea about the Hub. Please do not equate ignorance with lack of willingness to learn. A couple of years here has made my language lean towards tentative rather than affirmative :-) So I do try my best to keep things civil.

Kannann, what a quote from Goering ! This is one of those things we all perhaps know. But to put it in words is :shock:


Now...They won't sing the song because it's tamil? I still don't get what the Tamil connection is ? I don't think that was the problem at all.

[Surya]

I still don't get what the Tamil connection is ? I don't think that was the problem at all.

Then why else would none of the tamil ministers (Non-Muslim, since muslims, even then not all only some, had opposed it) sing it? Unless of course they're going back to their minority appeasement tendencies again...:)

[rajraj]

Prabhu,
The comments were not about you. I see you as a very balanced individual. The note was addressed to you and dsath to continue your civil way of debating. Sorry if I gave any room for misinterpretation. :(

The original song praising Bengal indicates a population of seven crores (saptha Kodi). Bharathi first changed it to 30 crores (muppadhu kOdi) and later to kOdi kOdi. But, it is difficult to sing. MS has sung it.
The phrase vandhe maatharam has been used by Bharathi in other songs sung by Tamils. For instance,

vaazhiya senthamizh vaazhga natramizhar
vaazhiya bharatha maNi thirunaadu
...............................................
..............................................
vandhe maatharam vandhe maatharam

There is another song starting with
vandhe maatharam enbom
maanila thaayai..............

Tamils have been singing vandhe maatharam in Tamil songs.

May be, they don't teach and sing Bharathi songs these days in schools. I remember one recent arrival here asking me how I knew Bharathiyar songs when I sang
'veLLai thaamarai poovil iruppaaL'. :)

[P_R]

I remember one recent arrival here asking me how I knew Bharathiyar songs when I sang
'veLLai thaamarai poovil iruppaaL'. :) :( Amusingly sad.
I once quoted a ThirukkuRaL in office to my boss and he said "adEyappa, thirukkuRaL ellAm therinju vachirukke !":banghead:

[dsath]

Why make a big deal of TN ministers not singing the song. Just because they did not sing, it does not mean they are unpatriotic. After all as i stated before its one of the Dravidian parties (don't know which one) which instituted the practice of singing the song 'Neerarum' in schools. Its always the first song in all the Tamil books. Why is this overlooked?
I am not a fan of the Dravidian parties, but i don't feel there is anything wrong with minority appeasement as long as its not hurting anyone and i assume no one is going to be hurt by singing/not singing the song.
I echo the voice of Rajraj sir, Prabhu Ram and Kannan regarding singing the song. I don't even know what it means. I am comfortable singing 'Neerarum'.
Prabhu Ram, you are right abt English. I have wondered why Tamilians (including me) can accept English but are against the imposition of Hindhi. Belonging to no-one makes it more acceptable i guess.
However BJP has deployed one of its tried and tested technique to get itself talked abt and occupy a major portion in all newspaper and magazines. I wonder what next?

[rajraj]

Prabhu,
Here is the link to Bharathiyar's version of vandhe maatharam:

http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?p=530987#530987

Another Bharathiyaar song with vandhe maatharam:

http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?p=181187#181187

[P_R]

Prabhu,
Here is the link to Bharathiyar's version of vandhe maatharam:

http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?p=530987#530987

Another Bharathiyaar song with vandhe maatharam:

http://forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?p=181187#181187

Thank You. I am not able to read the second one because of the font. Even some of the lines in the first aren't sinking (perhaps because of the transliteration). I'll make it a point to read it in my copy of Bharathiar KavithaigaL (the only book I carried along when coming here).


Just because they did not sing, it does not mean they are unpatriotic True. But the point to note is, (I suspect) the reason they didn't sing is not for linguistic reasons . The idea is by not singing they are trying to send out a signal that they are 'with the Muslim people'. By unanimously staying away from singing they seem more bent upon tagging the Hindu v Muslim dimension that has been given to this debate. i.e. they seem to be saying this is indeed a Hindu v Muslim issue and we stand by the Muslims. This is playing right into the hands of those who want to twist the issue.Ironically, even BJP did not go that far :-)

What is disappointing (but not surprising) is that instead of defusing the situation they have tried to gain some political mileage (which they hope to encash in some future date if this blows up to indeed become a big issue -hopefully it will pass).

[Rohit]

It is really amusing to watch how desperate these political parties and their supporters can go in wishing horses to fly. How incoherent it is to expect the Indian masses that are so deeply segregated right from the roots to yield to the extravagant demands of extravagant people in the name of patriotism or nationalism, when there are no components in place to support it.

No matter how desperately these political groups want the Indian masses to sing their desired jingle, so long as the jingle fails to stimulate the hearts and minds of the Indian masses, such wants are destined to be smashed into pieces.

As a matter of fact, when the combination of following five components, which is essential to establish the structure of a nation-state and maintain its cohesion,

1) Power
2) Nationalism
3) Territorial and Economic Ties
4) Common Language
5) Culture and Religion

India essentially lacks in all five components; then how on earth one can ever expect such segregated Indian mass to feel a sense of collective destiny through common past and embrace the vision of a common future?

When these political groups find nothing of this sort to bind the nation, they come up with such extravagant ideas of collectively singing the specially selected jingle and wish the whole exercise would eventually do the trick.

Would it?

I don't think so.

Simply because India needs more than just collectively singing a special jingle in order to bring the right feelings of true nationalism in every Indian, irrespective of their creed.

[dsath]

Prabhu Ram point taken. Yep they played into the trickery, but i guess that is what Indian politicians have been doing for a long long time.


India needs more than just collectively singing a special jingle for bringing the right feelings of true nationalism in every Indian, irrespective of their creed.
Rohit that was a good one. However i am not convinced if their intentions were for cohesion.

[Rohit]

However i am not convinced if their intentions were for cohesion.
Believe it or not dsath, such intentions were and still are for a specific form of 'cohesion'.

[Surya]

Prabhu Ram,
I couldn't have said it better! :)


Prabhu Ram point taken. Yep they played into the trickery, but i guess that is what Indian politicians have been doing for a long long time.

Yet it's still the BJP that is teh first to get Crucified in these Things!! :cry2:

[Braandan]

Patriotism has nothing to do with singing this song or that song. A real good nation having good people does not need any anthem. A real patriot never worries about singing any song! Does it mean that deaf/mute people who cannot sing are not patriots?

The people of India have nothing else to do?

Not to say that 'Patriotism' is a collective egoism.

[Sanguine Sridhar]

People who are requesting\recommends\orders to sing Vandemathram must know that many people in India doesn know how to sing our national anthem properly! It is a big shame.I challenge some of the hubbers who are here who supports the concept of Vandhemathram, to sing national anthem with proper pronunciation and words(Hope those hubbers respects their conscience!).If they cant then just :| and do your job!

Without refering Google can you give the meaning of each and every line of our national anthem? You know how many stanzas are there? You know the history of our anthem?.As an Indian you should have known this.First learn about this,then you can care about Vandemathram and other things

And i seriously denounce some half-baked comments about a matured politician with a minimal political knowledge. If you dont like a person then avoid giving some idiotic comments about him.Remember a person zero to you is a hero for a bunch!!!!

[Nakeeran]

People who are requesting\recommends\orders to sing Vandemathram must know that many people in India doesn know how to sing our national anthem properly! It is a big shame.I challenge some of the hubbers who are here who supports the concept of Vandhemathram, to sing national anthem with proper pronunciation and words(Hope those hubbers respects their conscience!).If they cant then just :| and do your job!

Without refering Google can you give the meaning of each and every line of our national anthem? You know how many stanzas are there? You know the history of our anthem?.As an Indian you should have known this.First learn about this,then you can care about Vandemathram and other things

And i seriously denounce some half-baked comments about a matured politician with a minimal political knowledge. If you dont like a person then avoid giving some idiotic comments about him.Remember a person zero to you is a hero for a bunch!!!!

Sanguine

Improper pronounciation can be spared if the HEART FEELS FOR UR COUNTRY. :D If U are proud of your country's deeds, then u are through .

I think U are referring to Surya's pulling down of Karunanidhi above.
Mind U, not only Surya, every Indian today CARRIES THE SAME GROWSE & DISRESPECT TOWARDS OUR POLITICIANS AS THEY DID LITTLE TO THE COUNTRY BUT A LOT FOR THEMSELVES.

& finally JUST BECAUSE ONE IS A HERO TO A BIG BUNCH DOESNT GLORIFY HIS DEEDS / MISDEEDS :evil: :evil:

OUR GUYS ARE SO EVIL MINDED THAT EVEN VEERAPAN WAS MADE A HERO BY A GROUP . :lol: :lol: SO DONT COUNT THIS HERO WORSHIPPING AS A YARDSTICK TO ASSESS A PERSON :evil:

[Surya]

Nakeerare!!! :notworthy:

Agreed that many peeps don't know the hist etc, but, they prob comes into play when ppl deliberatly claim that they will NOT sing it. :roll: That sounds more like disrespecting the sentiments behind it. There is a significant difference between being neutral (which is what a person who doesn't know much about it would be) and being against it. That's a big difference.

PS: Politicians and Patriotism don't go along anymore..different hubbers have said this directly and indirectly...so now i reprase it and suddenly peeps have a prob with it? :? Okay fine..."Indian Polticians are not patriots" If that makes the significant difference. :P

[blahblah]

Good comments from Sridhar and Braandan.

Surya,

Come out of your shell that you have created for yourself and I will respect you more.Is singing a song a parameter for your patriotism? Don't people seeking citizenship in US pledge allegiance to that nation? Don't they still tell themselves that they will return to their poor India once they have enough money?

Is it fair to claim that Tamizhans or Muslims have lost their sense of patriotism just because they do or do not sing a song?Do you believe that pluralism means everybodyelse accepting your point of view? Are you another George Bush?

I love to sing Vande Mataram.It brings tears to my eyes when I do that.I am passionate about it.But I would not have done that if it hurts my religious feelings.Sane voices are hard to hear!

By the way do you eat beef Surya?

[Sanguine Sridhar]

Nakeeran,

Why you are pulling politicians genrally, they are not God.Are you disciplined? Have you littered your country atleast once? Have you crossed the traffic signals atleast once? Have you always obyed the rules and regulations of our country?When you are like this then how can you expect your politicians to be clean?! What is the point of getting angry on the politicians :lol2: How many time you have encouraged the corruption.If you corrupted 10 rs for your position then the politician will corrupt 100000! Its obvious...

Stop commenting about politicians and be true to yourself!

Ps: You- here means us Indians!!

[Nakeeran]

Nakeeran,

Why you are pulling politicians genrally, they are not God.Are you disciplined? Have you littered your country atleast once? Have you crossed the traffic signals atleast once? Have you always obyed the rules and regulations of our country?When you are like this then how can you expect your politicians to be clean?! What is the point of getting angry on the politicians :lol2: How many time you have encouraged the corruption.If you corrupted 10 rs for your position then the politician will corrupt 100000! Its obvious...

Stop commenting about politicians and be true to yourself!

Ps: You- here means us Indians!!

Sanguine

All ur points above are called CIVIL OFFENCES . :D

What our politicans commit are called CRIMINAL OFFENCES :evil:

So there is a distinctive difference between the 2 .

[Surya]

Come out of your shell that you have created for yourself and I will respect you more. Trust me, i have, not as hardcore as i used to be say...3 years ago. :P


Is singing a song a parameter for your patriotism? Opposing a song that is important says something...


Is it fair to claim that Tamizhans or Muslims have lost their sense of patriotism just because they do or do not sing a song?

I rephrased that later, (I appologize for that mistake btw) Tamizhans meaning the politicians. Also, i'm not saying muslims aren't. Tens of Thousands of Muslims did sing the song. :thumbsup:


.But I would not have done that if it hurts my religious feelings.

It's harder to belive that to be true, when thousands of those from the same faith, who practice it, did sing the song. 8-)


By the way do you eat beef Surya? GOD NO! Veggie All The Way! :)

[Sanguine Sridhar]

Nakeeran you are doing civil offences for you position..but when you grow up to their stage this civil offence turns to criminal offence!! I said be honest to you!! Don argue just for fun.. be serious and think!

[Sanguine Sridhar]

Surya,

What i am trying to say is people who shouts to sing Vandemathram can answer my Q's? I said if they cant then they can just shut their mouth!!!

[Surya]

Keep in mind, that I grew up in the US, not an excuse, but my resources are very limited.

Can I sing the NA? YES.

Am I gonna have the exact pronounciation? Probably Not.

Meaning of each and every line: Prolly NOT agian.

Do I know the History? Yes.

But there is notihng more absurd than ur theory of "Know every single thing about the NA before talking about social issues." :roll:

It's like this:

P1: Why has the US not caught Bin Laden yet?!

P2: Uhm...well...Do u konw where he is? Then shut up! U have no right to ask that question!!!!!

U see how absurd this sounds!?!? :huh:

[Nakeeran]

Surya,

What i am trying to say is people who shouts to sing Vandemathram can answer my Q's? I said if they cant then they can just shut their mouth!!!

Sanguine

Can U explain the significance of NATIONAL ANTHEM & also VANDE MATARAM .

Curious to know from ur mouth


Surya,

All ur points are well justified :D

[Sanguine Sridhar]

Boss you are funny!! You are supporting the people who are asking to sing Vandemathram alright,I am asking them whether you know to sing National anthem? Thats all,I don find anything absurd here!!

[Sanguine Sridhar]

An indian should know the meaning and top to bottom of National Anthem and Vande-Mathram not that important for a secular country like India! ... Nakeeran got it?

[Surya]

Nakeeran! :D :D

Sridhar,
U seriously don't? :? :roll: :roll: hold on...lemme roll one more time..:roll:

Anywayz...:P well, okay. I support ppl who are asking to sing vande maatharam. u r asking me if i can sing the NA. Yes I can.

now..if that's all u mean...sure, I agree! :D Nothin absurd! :2thumbsup: :D this is completly ignoring the rest of ur post btw! :wink:

[Sanguine Sridhar]

Surya,

Is this the way you ran away always from an argument!! :lol2: Anyways i inturn accept that you have losed the encounter... :wave:

[Nakeeran]

Surya,

Is this the way you ran away always from an argument!! :lol2: Anyways i inturn accept that you have losed the encounter... :wave:

Sanguine

Suthi suthi round katti vareengale ! :twisted:

Pl be precise. What is the significance of National anthem & Vande mataram - ACCORDING TO U ?

If U have a valid case for this, then I have an answer to you :D

[Surya]

Ran away? :? What the hell r u sayin? I'm still right here.

PS: I'm not the one wavin! :wink: :lol2:

Anywayz, C ya later becks. :)

[blahblah]

Dushtanekkandal doore doore[malayalam]

If you see an evil guy stay away from him[English]

[Surya]

Dushtanai Kandaal Doora Velagu [Tamil] :2thumbsup:

But, if u have anything to say to the replies that i've given to ur post, please say it!! What's the point of posting Proverbs, translating them when they don't have much importance in the world anymore? :confused2: :P

[blahblah]

Since things don't seem to be clear to you anymore,

1.Stereotyping or blaming any particular community is a disservice to the nation.

2. A nations strength is in inclusiveness,not in a dictated or enforced single identity.

3.National symbols are to aid a nation's unity and integration , not to divide it.

4.Everyone values his or her religious faith.

5.If someone decides not to sing Vande Mataram and is forced to do so, that very process insults the idea behind that song and disrespects the author.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By the way, proverbs still have value and meaning.How can I describe my feelings so easily after reading fanatic posts with extremely bad intentions about a particular community,than to say,

"Dushtanekkandal Doore Doore" 8-)

[pavalamani pragasam]

Perhaps a day might come when one wants to know why he should love his mother! :(

Today education is commercialised. Formerly a school, a college vastly helped, witnessed the growth of an innocent kid into an enlightened, cultured, civilised young adult. Civic sense was part and parcel of the academic education. It was a wonderful process, the metamorphosis of the pupa into a beautiful butterfly. But what is happening now? No moral science classes, no physical training, no arts & crafts classes, nothing in short that helps an all-round growth of the personality. Defiance is the dominant note in the voice of the student community. Any disciplinary rule is met with scorn & stiff resistance.

In our student days singing the national anthem in chorus was a solemn ritual. It gave goose flesh. It still does. One of my friends will stand up from bed at night if she hears a distant sound of the national anthem at the end of a function far away. Why don't we see such alacrity now? Where did we fail in guiding the present generation? Utter lack of a proper sense of values in actions, words & thoughts has brought us to this situation. How are we to counter the evil effects of this materialistic, fast, selfish lifestyle?

[Sandeep]

1.Stereotyping or blaming any particular community is a disservice to the nation.

If a particular community is hell bend on isolating themselves from others, what else do you expect.


2. A nations strength is in inclusiveness,not in a dictated or enforced single identity.
3.National symbols are to aid a nation's unity and integration , not to divide it.

You are right. But if one community rejects national symbols then the nation's unity is effected. Hindu fundementalists rejecting green in our flag or some muslim clergy rejecting "Vante Mataram" both effect national unity. Many Hindus standup openly against the wrong ideologies of Hindu fundementalists. Do others?


5.If someone decides not to sing Vande Mataram and is forced to do so, that very process insults the idea behind that song and disrespects the author.
AGREE

[Sandeep]

------------------------------ digression -----------------------
PP madam,

While in Kerala for Onam I witnessed a discussion of a group of women about change in bringing up kids. They where saying how parenting has changed now. How disciplining has been replaced by pampering and guiding with ignoring.

As for your comment on education system, the system itself has not changed, but where are the teachers with commitment. I have many teachers in my extended family and I know they dont see their job any different from that of Office clerk.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

[pavalamani pragasam]

Sandeep, I agree with you about the lack of dedication in the present teaching community & the pampering tendency in present day parenting. About the latter many articles are also published clearly showing the bad aspects of spoiling the kids with too much leniency and indulgence. The kids have everything favourable for their growing into insolent, selfish, cruel, violent, spoilt brats! It is pity the affluent parents do not realise it! The overall materialistic, consumeristic atmosphere in the world makes people lose their finer feelings.

[Surya]

PP Madam (I know that I prolly in the genre of the ppl effected by the evil effects of this materialistic, fast selfish Lifestyle. *marriage thread* :oops: :( ) and Sandeep! :D :clap: Couldn't have said it better!! :D :D

blahblah,
basically what sandeep said! :P


By the way, proverbs still have value and meaning.How can I describe my feelings so easily after reading fanatic posts with extremely bad intentions about a particular community, than to say,
"Dushtanekkandal Doore Doore

Once Again! Thousands of Muslims did sing the song, I haven't said a word against them. I'm talking abt individuals rather than a community here!!! :roll:

So in this thread, or any other thread I don't fit into the Criteria, so u can go on and scream Dushtanekandal dore dore, along with it's translations, but that would be quite amusingly irrelevent, because there is no such Dushtan here. :thumbsup: ....well....here yet! :twisted: :lol2:


Anywayz, Peace Out. Gonna hit the sac for today! See ya'll later. :D

[blahblah]

,because there is no such Dushtan here. :thumbsup: ....well....here yet! :twisted: :lol2:

. :D

I hope so!

If there is no Dushtan there is no reason for worry.

I believe in this nation's proclaimed 'unity in diversity'. I am as unhappy as you are about a very small part of the Muslim community who are not able to sing "Vande Mataram".

In your posts you claim that thousands of Muslims sang the song.

What if they didn't?

Do they become lesser sons of Mother India?

[Surya]

Do they become lesser sons of Mother India?

If ALL the muslims got together and said "We will not sing it, it is against our religion" then it would be a hell of a lot more easier to believe that it IS against their religion, and not some whacko Mallicious interpretation. :D But even in that case, I would have to read more abt it to get an opinion for myself. Where as now, the clergy's words aren't very convincing when thousands of ppl from that very same community did sing it, and didn't find anything against Islam. 8-)

[RR]

Surya & others,

Pls use pm or email for clarifications on moderation issues, thanks!

[blahblah]

To Sandeep,Mrs.PP,Surya,

I surely don't like these people who go against our National song.
Yet,can't you forgive and forget ,if you truely love your nation?

Isn't it unfair to portray muslims as anti Indian when a lot of them have given their lives for this country?

Nowadays,patriotism in India[WHICH IS EGOISM BY THE WAY], is defined as your shamelessness to pledge allegiance with Hinduism!
It is very easy to declare a river called Ganga a Goddess,and make it Hindu property!

I am a christian by birth and faith,I have more of a right to stay in this country than Surya,because I try to unite the people of this nation while he is hellbound on dividing this country.

[pavalamani pragasam]

I was speaking purely about patriotism irrespective of caste, creed, religion & region!

[blahblah]

I was speaking purely about patriotism irrespective of caste, creed, religion & region!

I am sorry if I sounded like a pseudo secularist,which I am not.

I too am patriotic irrespective of caste,creed,religion or region!

Isn't it a wonderful feeling to think that you belong to a big family which holds one sixth of the whole humanity as its members?

I just meant to say no one has more right than me to live in this country or to claim this country as his own-not another Hindu,Muslim,Christian,Budhist,Parsi, or Sikh.

I am better than fanatics-whether they are Hindu,Muslim or Christian.

[dsath]

Do they become lesser sons of Mother India?

If ALL the muslims got together and said "We will not sing it, it is against our religion" then it would be a hell of a lot more easier to believe that it IS against their religion, and not some whacko Mallicious interpretation. :D But even in that case, I would have to read more abt it to get an opinion for myself. Where as now, the clergy's words aren't very convincing when thousands of ppl from that very same community did sing it, and didn't find anything against Islam. 8-)
Your argument that ALL Muslims does not accept/reject the song is not valid. In the British era not ALL Indians participated in the freedom movement and certainly not ALL Indians wanted the British to leave. Does that invalidate our Freedom struggle.
My question is why this sudden discovery of Vande Matram and imposing people to sing it?
For almost 60 yrs we have been united without singing Vande Matram, what sudden need has arisen to sing it? I think all communities are comfortable with singing the NATIONAL ANTHEM, what is the need for another national song?
We already have inter-community problems and at least 4 days a year the security has to be at high alert because of this. As though this is not enough we have now another one reason to fuel this inter community rift.

[pavalamani pragasam]

8-)

[Sanguine Sridhar]

There are 1000's of important issues other than this! What is the urgent need to broadcast about this useless news?

Let all the major issues gets solved, later we can sing proudly any song which is patriotic!!

What ever party rules our nation, they are not interested in solving any of this major issues, if they do so then they cant do politics anymore! Pity that the party which is not ruling has to show that they are active by starting these kind of things...

[Rohit]

My question is why this sudden discovery of Vande Matram and imposing people to sing it?Such has always been a serious problem with people afflicted by over nationalistic complex. Those with such neurosis, invariably tend to cross the fine line between patriotism, which genuinely expresses one’s strong sense of support and urge to serve his/her country; and fanatical patriotism, which can easily turn into chauvinism.

True patriotism is, by definition, free from all conflicting sentiments; but tragically the Indian situation has always been far from that prerogative condition, which invariably drives these overburdened people to cross that fine line between the two sentiments.

[Sandeep]

I too am patriotic irrespective of caste,creed,religion or region!

Isn't it a wonderful feeling to think that you belong to a big family which holds one sixth of the whole humanity as its members?

I just meant to say no one has more right than me to live in this country or to claim this country as his own-not another Hindu,Muslim,Christian,Budhist,Parsi, or Sikh.

I am better than fanatics-whether they are Hindu,Muslim or Christian.

Yes you are without Doubt :)

[Sandeep]

My question is why this sudden discovery of Vande Matram and imposing people to sing it?

Its not sudden, it was a small order from HRD minister Arjun Singh that started it.

To mark 125th year celebration of it's creation on September 7, 2006, ministry asked state governments to ensure that the first two stanzas of the song were sung in all schools on that day.

First two stanza from wikipedia
Mother, I salute to thee!
Rich with thy hurrying streams,
bright with orchard gleams,
Cool with thy winds of delight,
Green fields waving Mother of might,
Mother free.

Glory of moonlight dreams,
Over thy branches and lordly streams,
Clad in thy blossoming trees,
Mother, giver of ease
Laughing low and sweet!
Mother I kiss thy feet,
Speaker sweet and low!
Mother, to thee I bow.

But Islam prohibits its believers to salute or bow in front of anyone except Almighty and so they oppose this.

Its unfortunate that religion and patriotism have come at loggerheads.

[Rohit]

Isn’t it really fantastic that the very song, which was sung by in their thousands during Indian freedom struggle, remained antiquated for over five decades after the Indian independence, suddenly bites into someone's conscience for not being sung publicly for such a long time?

On one hand, if a religion prohibits its believers from bowing to anyone or anything except the divine being of its conception and if that religious belief is portrayed as the barrier between religion and patriotism; then no Muslim or Christian would ever qualify as patriotic, not even in their own countries. Nonetheless, the factual reality gives strong evidences that are absolutely contrary to such hypocritical portrayals.

On the other hand, another religion, which heavily relies on superimposing objective realities over the divine beings of its conceptions, and subsequently relies on perceptive inversion of the objective realities to sustain those religious beliefs, could be no lesser barrier between religion and patriotism than that portrayed in the former case. The very song that is under heavy criticism, evidently contains such embedded sentiments of such religious beliefs, and that is why it has drawn itself into such controversies.

Therefore, it would be incorrect to say that religion and patriotism have come at loggerheads, instead it is the mutually contradictory beliefs that have come at loggerheads.

True patriotism, by definition, is that which is free from all such conflicting sentiments.

[blahblah]

True patriotism, by definition, is that which is free from all such conflicting sentiments.

How true!

You have choices here-either to proceed with a negative communal agenda or to become a positive force which unites not alone this country but the whole humanity.

I assure you that I fail to understand some Muslims' refusal to sing 'Vande Mataram', which doesn't actually mean 'bowing down' before a particular deity.[Not even Hindus consider India as a Goddess or worship such a deity].But I am not going to hate Muslims for that.

Nobody can harm this country if we stay together.

[Rohit]

Thanks blahblah. :) :thumbsup:

[Rohit]

Facts:

If it really doesn't amount to worship, there is nothing wrong in the song - Vande Mataram

Let us now see what the song itself amounts to; and how free it is from the conflicting religious sentiments:

Vande maataraM - All five verses

"sujalaaM suphalaaM malayaja shiitalaaM
SasyashyaamalaaM maataram ||

Shubhrajyotsnaa pulakitayaaminiiM
pullakusumita drumadala shobhiniiM
suhaasiniiM sumadhura bhaashhiNiiM
sukhadaaM varadaaM maataraM ||

Koti koti kantha kalakalaninaada karaale
koti koti bhujai.rdhR^itakharakaravaale
abalaa keno maa eto bale
bahubaladhaariNiiM namaami taariNiiM
ripudalavaariNiiM maataraM ||

Tumi vidyaa tumi dharma
tumi hR^idi tumi marma
tvaM hi praaNaaH shariire

Baahute tumi maa shakti
hR^idaye tumi maa bhakti
tomaara i pratimaa gaDi
mandire mandire ||

TvaM hi durgaa dashapraharaNadhaariNii
kamalaa kamaladala vihaariNii
vaaNii vidyaadaayinii namaami tvaaM

Namaami kamalaaM amalaaM atulaaM
SujalaaM suphalaaM maataraM ||

ShyaamalaaM saralaaM susmitaaM bhuushhitaaM
DharaNiiM bharaNiiM maataraM |"

Translation by Shree Aurobindo

Mother, I bow to thee!
Rich with thy hurrying streams,
Bright with orchard gleams,
Cool with thy winds of delight,
Dark fields waving Mother of might,
Mother free.

Glory of moonlight dreams,
Over thy branches and lordly streams,
Clad in thy blossoming trees,
Mother, giver of ease
Laughing low and sweet!
Mother I kiss thy feet,
Speaker sweet and low!
Mother, to thee I bow.

Who hath said thou art weak in thy lands
When the sword flesh out in the seventy million hands
And seventy million voices roar
Thy dreadful name from shore to shore?
With many strengths who art mighty and stored,
To thee I call Mother and Lord!
Though who savest, arise and save!
To her I cry who ever her foeman drove
Back from plain and Sea
And shook herself free.

Thou art wisdom, thou art law,
Thou art heart, our soul, our breath
Though art love divine, the awe
In our hearts that conquers death.
Thine the strength that nervs the arm,
Thine the beauty, thine the charm.
Every image made divine
In our temples is but thine.

Thou art Durga, Lady and Queen,
With her hands that strike and her
Swords of sheen.
Thou art Lakshmi lotus-throned,
And the Muse a hundred-toned,
Pure and perfect without peer,
Mother lend thine ear,
Rich with thy hurrying streams,
Bright with thy orchard gleems,
Dark of hue O candid-fair

In thy soul, with jewelled hair
And thy glorious smile divine,
Lovilest of all earthly lands,
Showering wealth from well-stored hands!
Mother, mother mine!
Mother sweet, I bow to thee,
Mother great and free!

Source:
http://www.indianchild.com/vande_mataram.htm

How secular is Vande Mataram?

What applies to Vande Mataram applies also to Saraswati Vandana, a hymn to the Goddess Saraswati. The Supreme Court's ruling that the singing of the National Anthem cannot be made obligatory applies both to Vande Mataram and Saraswati Vandana with yet greater force.

The song 'Vande Mataram' occurs in Bankimchandra Chatterjee's novel Anand Math published in 1882.

The central plot moves round a band of sanyasis, called santanas or children, who left their hearth and home and dedicated their lives to the cause of their motherland. They worshipped their motherland as the Goddess Kali;... This aspect of the Ananda Math and the imagery of Goddess Kali leave no doubt that Bankimchandra's nationalism was Hindu rather than Indian.

As Majumdar pithily puts it, "Bankimchandra converted patriotism into religion and religion into patriotism."

The song has five stanzas. Of these only the first two are the "approved ones". Jawaharlal Nehru was 'opposed to the last two stanzas'.

The third stanza refers to 'Thy dreadful name', evidently, a reference to the Goddess Kali. The fourth is in the same vein. 'Thou art Durga, Lady and Queen, with her hands that strike and her swords of sheen'.

It is essentially a religious homage to the country conceived as a deity, 'a form of worship' as Majumdar aptly called it. The motherland is "conceived as the Goddess Kali, the source of all power and glory."

The context makes it worse. "The land of Bengal, and by extension all of India, became identified with the female aspect of Hindu deity, and the result was a concept of divine Motherland". How secular is such a song? The objection was not confined to mere bowing and it was voiced early in the day.

Its stand was defined in a statement by Prime Minister Nehru to the Constituent Assembly (Legislative) on August 25, 1948:7 Nehru said:

Accordingly, I make this statement... The composition consisting of the words and music known as 'Jana Gana Mana' is the national anthem of India, subject to such alterations in the words as the Government may authorise as occasion arises; and the song 'Vande Mataram', which has played a historic part in the struggle for Indian freedom, shall be honoured equally with Jana Gana Mana and shall have equal status with it. (Applause) I hope that will satisfy the Members.

Source:
http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl1601/16010940.htm

[Sandeep]

I wonder why they dont oppose Jana Gana Mana, after all it is also in praise of God and Tagore would have prayed to a Hindu God.

[Rohit]

Irrespective of the validity or invalidity of the controversies, even "jana gana mana.." is not free from controversies. In the "jana gana mana.." case, it is not the Muslims who are at the centre of controversies, but it is the Hindus who are at the centre of controversies, as many have expressed scepticism about the intentions of Ravindranath Tagor.

Moreover, there is no explicit reference to any God in the poem, except the freedom to interpret the words "jana gana mana adhinayak- the ruler of the minds of all people" and "bharat bhagya vidhata - the dispenser of India's destiny" as one wishes. Besides, in no way these official meanings could be made compatible with the postulated Hindu notion of God; simply because It couldn't "rule the minds of people", nor could It "dispense India's destiny" favourably.

It is well known fact that Ravindranath Tagor composed the poem "jana gana mana .." when he was asked, just a night before, to write something welcoming to the British monarch, George V on 27 December 1911 at the Calcutta session of the Indian National Congress.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The poem was composed in December 1911, precisely at the time of the Coronation Durbar of George V, and is a paean in praise of "the overlord of India's destiny". The composition was first sung during a convention of the then loyalist Indian National Congress in Calcutta on Dec. 27, 1911 [3]. It was sung on the second day of the convention, and the agenda of that day devoted itself to a loyal welcome of George V on his visit to India.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jana_Gana_Mana#Controversies

While it is clear that "Jana Gana Mana" was sung for the first time at the Kolkata session of the Indian National Congress on December 27, 1911, a controversy still rages over whether the song was actually meant to welcome King George V, as was reported in some leading newspapers of that time.

http://www.samachar.com/features/140802_1-fpj.html

To begin with, India's national anthem, Jana Gana Mana Adhinayaka, was written by Rabindranath Tagor in honour of King George V and the Queen of England when they visited India in 1911.

http://sankalpindia.net/drupal/node/769

The link below contains the translated (maybe somewhat distorted though) version of all five stanza of "jana gana mana.."

http://na.rediffblogs.com/

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Therefore, it is not that hunky-dory with the "jana gana mana.." either, unfortunately.

[Sandeep]

Rohit,

From wiki link you gave

As presented in 1968 by the Indian Express newspaper, was this:

"He (Tagore) got up very early in the morning and wrote a very beautiful poem.... When he came down, he said to one of us, 'Here is a poem which I have written. It is addressed to God, but give it to Congress people. It will please them."
Thus, Tagore is said to have written the poem in honour of God. In a letter to Pulin Behari Sen, Tagore himself wrote:

"A certain high official in His Majesty's service, who was also my friend, had requested that I write a song of felicitation towards the Emperor. The request simply amazed me. It caused a great stir in my heart. In response to that great mental turmoil, I pronounced the victory in Jana Gana Mana of that Bhagya Vidhata [ed. God of Destiny] of India who has from age after age held steadfast the reins of India's chariot through rise and fall, through the straight path and the curved. That Lord of Destiny, that Reader of the Collective Mind of India, that Perennial Guide, could never be George V, George VI, or any other George. Even my official friend understood this about the song. After all, even if his admiration for the crown was excessive, he was not lacking in simple common sense."



Anyway I understand there is another topic on Jana Gana Mana.

The questions is why Muslims are not offended by Jana Gana Mana, which hails, calls for victory of "India's Bhagyavidhatha".

[Badri]

Hmm, I wonder whether the original context of where these compositions are found matter, or what they have come to represent that is more important.

If that be the case, the motto Satyameva Jayate could also be equally denounced, if one were to consider the origins of the phrase. Sane people would not care for the origins and instead focus on the meaning, which, no matter what the religion/region is holds true - Truth Alone Triumphs

Similar is the case with Vande Mataram and Jana Gana Mana, whether they were originally composed in Anandamath or for old George.

They are now stand alone pieces, bereft of their original context and there is no need to stir a controversy by highlighting where they were found or under what circumstances they were created or by whom!!!

In which case, would people of other religions reject Indian citizenship because Mahatma Gandhi, a Hindu, is referred to as the Father of the Nation?

How utterly ridiculous that would be!!! :huh:

Indeed, like all other controversies, I believe it is beneath any sane, rational individual to even discuss such issues!

[pavalamani pragasam]

Hmm, I wonder whether the original context of where these compositions are found matter, or what they have come to represent that is more important.

If that be the case, the motto Satyameva Jayate could also be equally denounced, if one were to consider the origins of the phrase. Sane people would not care for the origins and instead focus on the meaning, which, no matter what the religion/region is holds true - Truth Alone Triumphs

Similar is the case with Vande Mataram and Jana Gana Mana, whether they were originally composed in Anandamath or for old George.

They are now stand alone pieces, bereft of their original context and there is no need to stir a controversy by highlighting where they were found or under what circumstances they were created or by whom!!!

In which case, would people of other religions reject Indian citizenship because Mahatma Gandhi, a Hindu, is referred to as the Father of the Nation?

How utterly ridiculous that would be!!! :huh:

Indeed, like all other controversies, I believe it is beneath any sane, rational individual to even discuss such issues!

Well said, badri! We should learn to discern/discriminate what should be viewed with context and what should be viewed without context, aloof.

[Sandeep]

Very well said, Badri.

[Rohit]

The questions is why Muslims are not offended by Jana Gana Mana, which hails, calls for victory of "India's Bhagyavidhatha".

Like Badri said, it is for the people in general to figure it out. Why not?

[Surya]

Badri! :2thumbsup: 8-) Well Said.

[blahblah]

A smart one from Bush.

See,he is not the American President for nothing! :lol:

[Surya]

I used to be anti-bush until recently...:) He's been doing good, his poll ratings have also gone up in the past 6 months. 8-)