What does it mean to be thamizhs- PLEASE RESPOND

[itli thosai]

I am 19 yrs old. since i was 13 i ve lived abroad. but I have a fierce pride that i am a thamizhan. and by being a thamizhan, I consider myself lucky to call such an ancient, literary tradition as my own.

But u know what. it sometimes scares me to think that hardly anyone knows about the richness of their language/or history. if you dont even know. how are you going to be proud of it and worse still PROMOTE IT.

I am sick of people just raving on about the greatness of tamil. To most people it sounds as though we are all fanatics. Perhaps some people should take care of the living language thamizh too. i mean look at english which is flourishing now. greek, latin and that language sanskrit are all dead. the reason english is flourishing now is becos people speak it. chinese, japanese. they really speak it. UPDATE IT. and USE IT. why cant thamizhs do the same.

unmayil thamizh meedu patru irunthal ovvoru thamizhanum, thamizhil pesa, ezhutha karkka vendum. thamizh sould be made into a modern language. shortlly speaking two doctors should converse in thamizh medically. two scientists. two engineers. just as two philosophers or religious people might...

WHAT DO YOU THINK. we youngsters need some guidance from the PAZHAMS THAT grace this forum. dont we need to make varungala thamizh nadu a valamana thamizh nadu

[itli thosai]

naan enthaenum thavaraga koori irunthal manniyungal. ungal pathilkalai yedhirparkiraen.

[AshokLoganathan]

neer sonathu 100% unmai ! unmaiyai thavira vaeru ondrum ellai !

neer mannippu koori ezhutha avasiyamum illai !

[Maayavan]

itli thosai:

I think each of us must contribute in some measures to the progress of our language. You know what, if you are interested in Sangath Thamizh literature and scout for books in Tamilnadu, you'll get them all at cheap rates and in cheap quality of print - such is the dire straits that we have fallen into.

I dont know if the passionate people who translated those epoch making works receive any Royalty at all or not.

We must make it a point to buy Tamil literature books - old and new and at least make it a point to converse in Tamil within family and friends.

There are enough things we can do - for instance, we both can learn to type in Tamil and communicate in our thAi mozhi.

Anbudan,

Thirumaal

[Badri]

Mozhi azhivatharku erandu karanangal...

Onru, pesuvar illathu poguthal
Erandu, kaalathirku yerpa mozhi valarathu irutthal

Athai miga azhagaga sutti katti irukkereerkal, Itli thosai.

Oru vithathil, intha erandam karanam thaan nam tamizh mozhiyaiyum indru baathikkirathu. Oru puram, munnerangal yeralam. avaikarku tamizhil sorkal illa..irunthalum, athai upayogikka yeno oru thayakkam...itharku naanum vidhi vilakka alla....kanipori enra sollai vida computer enbathe enakkum iyalbagha varugirathu. Oru karanam enna venral, namm mozhi ithanai pazhmai vaithanthaga iruppathe enru enakku thonrugirathu. Puthithaga vantha ivvarthaigalai yeno tamizh sorkalaga karuda mudiavillai.

aanal, neer solliya vannam, tamizhai naam "update" seithu "use" seiyya vidil, tamizhum azhiyumo enra achham irukkirathu. Thanayan irukka thai azhuvatha? tamizhan irukka, thanga thamizh azhivatha?

[F.S.Gandhi vandayar]

Dear idli dosai,

Your intension is good.

But you have to see the practical possibilities.

There are more books in tamil for science and technology and medicine than any other language in india. Tamil University published tamil books for MBBS degree.

But with indian political setup you cannot implement tamil as language for science studies in colleges.

Employment oppurtunities should be there. Then only the learning of other arts through tamil will improve.

China and Japan have different political set up.

That is why tamils want to atleast history to make the tamil living.

But, I think, we can preserve tamil in literature only.

We have to look into the history of jews. They forgot their language migrated all over the world. Reached higher positions.Earned much.Influenced the world much. At last they revived the perished country and language after serveral years.

This is the one inspiration for tamils in history.

[Uthappam]

What it means to be Tamils? Idli thosai, of course! If you don't go for that you cant be a Tamil!

[Hyderbadi]

I am sick of people just raving on about the greatness of tamil. To most people it sounds as though we are all fanatics.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

This guy is perfectly right. By parading around this forum claiming htat Tamil is better than other languages or that Tamil is the "best" langauge...you are not helping yourselves or Tamil in anyway...in fact, it only makes people think of you as an extremist and it makes whatever langauge you are trying to boast look bad...

[Uthappam]

I am sick of people just raving on about the greatness of tamil. To most people it sounds as though we are all fanatics.

This guy is perfectly right. By parading around this forum claiming htat Tamil is better than other languages or that Tamil is the "best" langauge...you are not helping yourselves or Tamil in anyway...in fact, it only makes people think of you as an extremist and it makes whatever langauge you are trying to boast look bad...

Looks like you quite envy the greatness of Tamil, don't you, Hyderbadi. Why don't you do the same for your tongue, I will support you! ... don't make the same mistake your brother did!

[solomon]

Friend,

Tamil is one of the Oldest Languages, and now Tamils living in Abroad has more oppertunity to be in touch with Tamils, like this forum- LET US THANK ALL.

Friends,

Most of the SANGAM LIterature and Tirukural are available ONLINE- Downloadable- at
www.tamilnet/projectmadurai

Please keep knowing the past. Sangam LIterature tells how deeply Tamils were religious with Practice of Vedas from Tholkappiyam Days. Also Sangam LIt. tells how much of Civilisation level of Tamils.

Knowing past History is best way to look at future.

MosesMohammedSolomon.

[Idiappam]

Solomon lied:

Sangam LIterature tells how deeply Tamils were religious with Practice of Vedas from Tholkappiyam Days.

'Vedic Practice' is about eating meat roasted in the sacrifical fire and drinking Soma - an intoxicating liqour.

Sangam Literature - The Thirukural was talked against such practices!

[solomon]

Friends,

Tholkappiyam to Tirukural all regard Vedas as Highest Regard and God INSpired Revealtion.

Let Idiyappam stop Nonsense- Tamil Worship method Veriyattu has much bore Sacrfice Killing and drinking of Animal Bloods.

If Vedas are of 2000BCE, and Sangalm TaMIL Lit. is 200CE, and Please stop your NONSENSE, I CAN Quote both, and I Want to give only what is releavent today, don't force me.
MosesMOHammedSolomon

[sivajayan]

solo man,

why don't you first digest idli thosai before trying idiappam?

[sivajayan]

Knowing past History is best way to look at future.


And your future is?

Isn't history always the past?

[solomon]

Friends,

Tamil Sangam Lit. has Differenciating Tamil Worship Method, mentioned in Tholkappiyam, ThiruMurugatrupadai, Silapathikaram to others, and that is called Veriyattu, and Sacrifice and eating of Bloods are perfectly mentioned, Vedic are dated to 2000BCE, and so 2000 years later still sacrifice was continued, when after Vupanishad dates 600BCE, Sacrifice in Vedic Practice was widely discontinued.

Tirukural was looked as a Translation and explanation of Vedas, as per the Authors of Tiruvalluva Malai, few of which is quoted already in Tirukural Thread.
MosesSolomon

[Idiappam]

Friends,

Tamil Sangam Lit. has Differenciating Tamil Worship Method, mentioned in Tholkappiyam, ThiruMurugatrupadai, Silapathikaram to others, and that is called Veriyattu, and Sacrifice and eating of Bloods are perfectly mentioned, Vedic are dated to 2000BCE, and so 2000 years later still sacrifice was continued, when after Vupanishad dates 600BCE, Sacrifice in Vedic Practice was widely discontinued.

Tirukural was looked as a Translation and explanation of Vedas, as per the Authors of Tiruvalluva Malai, few of which is quoted already in Tirukural Thread.
MosesSolomon

PLease, Mr Solomon -- You may have read the Tamil works, but you are far from the Vedas and sanskritic works. Go read the Vedas first before you compare!

[Anchaneya]

Friends,

Mr.Idiyappam is bent upon saying meaninglessly against Indian Vedic Tradition, which Valluvar is Openly supports.

Why Keep on saying Badly on 4000 year old, when 2000 years later Tamils were of equal or worser, as Sangam Lit. Proves.

Please accept both and take only good, and stop Bad Mouthing against one, if you do on one, certainly other would bring the next side.

Follow Tirukural

Anchaneya

[mahadevan]

Dear Mr Anjaneya,
I grew up in an orthodox ambience, belived that vedas are the greatest repository of knowledge. But it all changed when I startted reading vedas rather than reading articles that blindly praise it. Let us talk like knowledgable adults, to begin with let us talk about Rig veda, I have read it completly, In short it is about i) praising a bunch of war gods by saluting them with encomiums. ii) Claiming victory over dark skinned people thanks to the aryan valour. iii) Animals are created so that they can be sacrified, once sacrificed how should you eat them.....The list goes on like this. I never found even one funda there to be anything that closely resembles sacredness or even knowledge worth appreciation. If I am wrong please enlighten me. Please reply so that we can have a objective talk about Rig veda, rather than blanket sweep statements like it is great , that is great etc.
Please do not compare Thirukural with any of the vedic litreature, to vedas secularism is anathema, to thirukural it is the crux.

[Indrajith]

Dear Mr. Mahadevan/Anchaneya,

Good to see the point you are trying to make.
I would like to join this too. I think as of now I stand with Anchaneya. Let me see if I change....

And by the way Mr. Mahadevan, Where did you study vedhas?
Did you read it by yourself? Which language? Sanskrit or Englishor any other language translation? Because if you start reading versions other than the original then the author might have put in his views and perspectives in to it .. .might be....

And I would strongly condomn you saying that I have read Rig veda. ( Rig veda, I have read it completly as you have said). I trust You have just read it. Not studied it.

People who read such an ancient script will never say , I read it completely and I understand it fully.... and jump in to some conclusions like point 1,2,3 and the list goes on like this....

You are making fun out of Rig Vedha the ancient ever script in India and of course of yourself too...

I dont want to argue any point .. but please do think twice before making such statements.

Anchaneya,

keep it up.

[mahadevan]

Dear Mr Indrajit,
If often get only such comments when I ask for what is sacred in Rig veda, Never once have I gotten a reply that stated, hey this is great/sensible in Rig veda. Please let us not get personal here. Please provide me with quotes from Rig veda that make it sacred. I always read that translated Rig veda is highly error prone. I understand that when we translate a literary creation in another language we do lose some of the originality but not the essence, English is after all not such an incapable language to convey thoughts. Let us follow any work snaskrit/english that you prefer, please show me some great philosophical stuff.

Food for though : the word Siva many claim to be of tamil origin, with the derivation coming from word sivapu for color Red, In Rig veda he is addressed as Rudra, the root being 'Rud', which means RED in almost all IE group of languages. It clearly says that the name siva was translated to rudra in vedic, but because the common man always used siva, that term still continues in India. Vedic friends claim that rudra means ferocious, that looks more like a conotation rather than a denotation, the latter yields to etymology.

[Idiappam]

Mahadevan asked Indrajit:

Please provide me with quotes from Rig veda that make it sacred.

He can't, for there is nothing sacred there! Looting, robbery and plunder - Yes plenty of verses there in the Rig. Nothing sacred!

[Indrajith]

if you say that Rig Vedha has a "sacred" issue then you have a perspective issue. Anyway I am not here for a fight or prove any point. From my perspective everything in Rig.... looks okie... :)

[Idiappam]

From my perspective everything in Rig.... looks okie... :)

Including the Caste System prescribed in the Prusha Sooktam of the Rig?

[sivajayan]

What about drinking soma? What is it all about?
If it kicks me off then I may understand the vedas, perhaps.

[Indrajith]

From my perspective everything in Rig.... looks okie... :)

Including the Caste System prescribed in the Prusha Sooktam of the Rig?


If European countries could have thought off the varnasrama that India had long ago they might have been far far better than what they are ..... is not a statement by me.. :)

They have given things in Rig which is fine with me always but it is we , the ill-minded people who screwed it up to our needs and manipulate them and put the blame on vedhas as we always do....

[sivajayan]

From my perspective everything in Rig.... looks okie... :)

Including the Caste System prescribed in the Prusha Sooktam of the Rig?


If European countries could have thought off the varnasrama that India had long ago they might have been far far better than what they are ..... is not a statement by me.. :)

They have given things in Rig which is fine with me always but it is we , the ill-minded people who screwed it up to our needs and manipulate them and put the blame on vedhas as we always do....
Oh, do you want to say that you have heard something about Einstein? I am quite sure that he did not mean the caste system. He himself faced something similar being a Jew in Germany!

[mahadevan]

Indrajit wrote
If European countries could have thought off the varnasrama that India had long ago they might have been far far better than what they are ..... is not a statement by me..


It is a shame that even today some people glorify discrimination based on color or whatever. Manu sashtra makes Hitler an angel. Few great men and a lot of morons cannot make a sucessful society, that has been the model for India so far (though in reality the few Great ones were not great but just limited access to other by supressing them in inhuman ways). In the west it is equality for all, that is what has made them great. Even in India states that adopted affirmative policies like TN are freaking out in the economic sense. When all those masses get educated all this inhuman glorification of heinious crimes would be properly dealt with. Sorry Indrajit you are a dying tribe !

[solomon]

Friends,

I sincerely regret the comoplete ignorance on part of Friends, who without understanding of either literature keeps posting meaningless articles.

Purushas Suktham looks at the Men by their working and expressed in a Poetic way; we should understand that it belongs to BCE2000, and TholKappiyam and Tirukural has full of Casteism.

Tholkappiyar is clear Education is denied to the 4th Caste, 4th Caste should not do other than Agriculture; where as others are permitted to.

Bible is full of Racism and Jesus openly Practised Racism as per Gospels, no use to compare Bible and Vedas.

As per Bible first five books called Moses Law or Towrat by Muslims God has given law to Sacrifice 400 to 1600 goats every minute daily, and the chief Bishop must eat 88 pigeons every day.

Casteism is mostly practised by Upper Caste Non-Brahmins for Economical Benefits.

So Mind Change is required and to blame them on Scripture is meaningless.

MosesSolomon

[mahadevan]

solomon wrote: I sincerely regret the comoplete ignorance on part of Friends, who without understanding of either literature keeps posting meaningless articles.

Non acceptance of your school of thought does not mean ignorance, it is simply rejection of those ideas.

solomon wrote: Purushas Suktham looks at the Men by their working and expressed in a Poetic way; we should understand that it belongs to BCE2000

discrimination is told in a poetic way justifies it, is it what they call poetic licence ?
If it belongs to BCE2000, it can talk of racism and it is justifiable ?


solomon wrote : Bible is full of Racism and Jesus openly Practised Racism as per Gospels, no use to compare Bible and Vedas. As per Bible first five books called Moses Law or Towrat by Muslims God has given law to Sacrifice 400 to 1600 goats every minute daily, and the chief Bishop must eat 88 pigeons every day.

totally irrevalant for this discussion

solomon wrote: So Mind Change is required and to blame them on Scripture is meaningless.

If you keep following the scriptures, your mind cannot change

[Idiappam]

Purushas Suktham looks at the Men by their working and expressed in a Poetic way; we should understand that it belongs to BCE2000,

Ok, lets examine the verse:

12 The Brahman was his mouth, of both his arms was the Rajanya made.
His thighs became the Vaisya, from his feet the Sudra was produced.
Rig Veda, 10:XC:12
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv10090.htm

So there you are... you glorify the vedas, Solomon?? Why?


and TholKappiyam and Tirukural has full of Casteism.

Where???

[Indrajith]

marappinum othukkolalaagum paarpaan pirap
pozhukkam kundrakk kedum

Therindhavargal idhai enna sollappogindrargal???

[Idiappam]

That just shows that the Brahmins of Valluvar's time were of ill conduct too! hahaha!

Read the Kural verse again - and also the verse before that = to understand what Valluvar meant!

There is no casteism here!

[bis_mala]

paarppaan = kOyil kAriyam paarppavan.

Could have been anyone. Not necessarily the ancestors of present day brahmins.

Even up to now, there are temples in remote areas which are not looked after by brahmins!!

Do not read present day caste into kuRaL.

piRappu ozukkam = (enthak kudiyil piRanthaanO, anthak kudiyin piRapozukkam ).



Tirukural was looked as a Translation and explanation of Vedas, as per the Authors of Tiruvalluva Malai, few of which is quoted already in Tirukural Thread. - MosesSolomon

ThirukkuRaL has nothing to do with the Vedas. It is also not a translation or explanation of the Vedas, which were made at different times by different authors, few of whom were unknown persons.

On the question of Aryan /vedic concepts and kuRaL, reference can be made to "Thiruvalluvar nool nayam" by Prof. Dr R.P. Sethupillai.

ThiruvaLLuvamAlai says that VaLLuvar wrote kuRaL as an original presentation. (muthal nuul ). "thAnE muzuthuNarnthu thaNdamizin veNkuRaLaal , aanaa aRamuthalaa an naankum" - nakkiirar.

"muppaalin mikka moziundenap pakarvaar, eppaa lavarinum il" - ( siRukarunthumbiyaar). There is nothing worth mentioning besides KuRaL , so says ThiruvaLLuvamaalai, so how could it be a translation?

By itself it is the vEtham: "vEthap poruLaai mikaviLangki" - (maangkudi maruthanAr ). mikaviLangki = it exceeded in its greatness any other religious or other exposition.
Translation enRaal eppadi 'mikaviLangkum"?

vaLLuvan sei thirukkuLai
maRuvaRa nan kuNarnthOrkaL
uLLuvarO man vAthi
oru kulaththuk koru niithi? (manonmaNiyam).

[abbydoss1969]

Friends,

Bible is full of Racism and Jesus openly Practised Racism as per Gospels, no use to compare Bible and Vedas.

MosesSolomon


Please explain yourself, instead of making such blanket statemens. :cry:

[r_kk]

[tscii:5a8a4267e3]Hi abbydoss1969,
One of the big mistakes we humans do about religion and religious books is that we consider those as holy, provided or inspired by so called God and worship it without understanding it. But the fact is that all the organized religions and its books are man made with limited knowledge with the purpose of gaining superiority over mass or intention to deceive and exploit the mass.

Even though I accept the above statement of Solomen about Bible, based on my detail study about Bible and history, I reject Solomen’s statement about Vedas with the same criteria. It is also equally dangerous to human kind.

In order to understand racism in Christianity you try to read the following
1. Pro-slavery transcripts of Amerian Civil war documents particularly Reverend Thomas Stringfellow (1856), a Baptist minister from Culpepper County in Virginia titled "A Scriptural View of Slavery:"
2. Reasons for Rwandan Genocides
3. Reasons for genocides of Jews before and during second world war.

In order to understand Vedas effect on human suppression, read books of any Dalit revolutionary leaders. The cruel caste (varna) system was/is the major and sole foundation of Vedas and vedic system (Varansaram).

I request you to just remove the viewpoint of looking religious books as holy and worshipping it (without reading and understanding along with actual historical impact on human beings). Just consider it as the works of our ancestors. I can write tons of posts about the bad parts of all major organized religions and its holy books. But considering the rules of this forum and nature of this thread, I am not writing here. If you want to know any more details, then pm to me.
[/tscii:5a8a4267e3]

[RR]

Sorry, but this topic has to be closed. Going too much into casteism is forbidden on our forums..