ISRAEL - Who have real right to it ?

[Nakeeran]

Lets discuss about Isreal & also the on going crisis in middle east - the war between Israel - Lebanon & other gulf countries

Wish to know more about why & how Jews occupied Israel & how the Palestine liberation movement surfaced etc etc

Healthy discussions pls :D

[Badri]

Historically, the area now known as Israel had been continously fought, occupied and re-occupied by Assyrians, Persians, Babylonians, Greeks and Romans, resulting in several mass expulsions of the Jews that had made their nation there. (Jews believed - some still do - Israel was the land God had promised them.)

It was Romans who gave the name Syria - Palestina to the region in an attempt to erase Jewish ties and dominance to the region.

In more recent times, the League of Nations established in 1920, a British Mandate of Palestine. Under the Mandate, Jewish immigration to Palestine increased substantially. Traditional Palestinian Arab leaders strongly opposed the immigration, which increased drastically during the Nazi period as Jewish refugees fled Nazi persecutions and found refuge in the Mandate.

In 1936 the British Peel Commission advised that the western part of Palestine be divided between Arabs and Jews. The Arabs then launched the Great Uprising against British rule in an effort to end the immigration. The Jews in the meanwhile launched their own agitations against both the Arabs and the British.

Soon after World War II, the British decided to leave Palestine. The United Nations attempted to solve the dispute by putting forward the 1947 UN Partition Plan, dividing the land area between the two populations, on November 29, 1947; the Jewish Agency accepted the plan, while the Palestinian Arabs, along with their allies elsewhere in the Arab world, rejected it as inadequate. The Arab-Jewish fighting within Palestine escalated to full-scale war right after the UN partition plan was approved, and on May 14, 1948, the Jewish population declared independence as the state of Israel.

The armies of Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria then invaded, but did not succeed even in holding onto much of the areas reserved in the UN partition plan for the Arab state.

Large numbers of Palestinian Arabs fled or were expelled from their homes during the fighting and to this day have not been allowed to return. Israel managed to maintain its independence and even expand its borders.

What remained of the territories allotted to the Arab state in Palestine was annexed by Jordan (the West Bank) or occupied by Egypt (the Gaza Strip) from 1948 to 1967.

In 1967 Israeli forces preemptively attacked Egypt and Jordan in what has come to be known as the Six day war. As a result of the 1967 Six Day War, the Israel Defense Forces occupied the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Golan Heights, and the Sinai Peninsula bringing them under military rule. The United Nation's Security Council passed Resolution 242, promoting the "land for peace" formula, which called for Israeli withdrawal from territories occupied in 1967 in return for the end of all states of belligerency.

Since that time, the Palestinians refugees have struggled to assert their own independence, either in all the territories of Palestine or in the West Bank and Gaza Strip particularly.

- SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN CONTINUING SINCE....

(much of this has been gathered from Wiki)

[Nakeeran]

Mr. Badri

Thanks a lot

I think India & some other countries adopted a policy of diplomatic severance of ties with 2 countries - South Africa & Isreal for some time

SA - I know due to apartheid , the whole world was against them & India too joined

Israel - Why ?

and what about India's ties with Israel ? I request this also may be covered here
I mean , what has been India's stand on Israel vis a vis Palestine

I vaguely remember Indira & Arafat had wonderful wrapport

[alwarpet_andavan]

SA - I know due to apartheid , the whole world was against them
Not quite, U.S.A was selectively a friend of S.A during the apartheid [the reign of Ronald "The Rogue" Reagan] for reasons obvious to anyone who knows about the real history of U.S
About India's stand w.r.t to Israel-Palestine, the UPA has taken an andhar bulti on its CMP promises [Common Minimum Programe] and has favored Israel over Palestine, thereby betraying the cause of the Palestines.

[alwarpet_andavan]

Nakkeeran,
One more point.. its not as though there has to be a dichotomy like Israel OR Palestine. The solution should be some mutually acceptable form of a two-state formula.

[alwarpet_andavan]

SA - I know due to apartheid , the whole world was against them & India too joined

Israel - Why ?


Nakkeeran,
A long one but a must read - http://www.chomsky.info/interviews/20040309.htm

Also, please try to read books/articles by Edward Said [one of the most respected writers on the Israel-Palestine issue] and the man himself.

[crazy]

politics.............hm intresting

ISRAEL- THE PROMISED LAND OF JEWS :roll: :lol:

today i and my bro was having discussion about Israel and Arab nations and ofcourse Iran.

I feel terribly sorry for palestinians..............it was their soil, their land ............only b'coz the europeans felt guilty and sympathy towards the jew...............the ISREAEL was formed!
i have a palestinian friend...............whenever she speak of palestine...........i can see pain and sorrow in her eyes, but no hatred............she is the only muslim friend i got who have such a tolerance towards Israelites, where as my afghani and turkish friends keep saying bad about jews and israelites!

just for about 4 months ago we went to the Nobel Peace Centre in Oslo and saw the gallery by a hungarian guy(jew) whom i dont remeber his name................his picture taken during the 2nd WW showing basically the sufferings of the jews...............

when we got back to the class..............we r asked to say how and what we felt about the pictures!
since i had some sort of passion to to jews and had a class full of muslim friends ...............i chose to be quite.............i simply said NO COMMENTS, but my palestinian friend she spoke "these pic only show the sufferings of the jews in europe during 2nd WW, but it failed to show how my grandpa was sent off his field(her grandpa was a farmer or sth in palestine-now israel) and the british forced us to leave ur belongings and soil ................just becoz they felt sorry for jews thay gave them the land, but what about us? where is the pic of my grandpa who was beaten up to leave his land? or those who missed their life fighting against the british"

my eyes got wet...........for the first time i saw hatred in her eyes........apropos palestine!
the SO CALLED PROMISED LAND belongs to both, both jews and arabs(palestinian muslims and christians).

history is painfull .................when it comes to ppl and leaving a country its matter of identification, pride and also affiliation...............i have seen many asking this stupid question.............why cant u guys live together with them, whats the big deal? blah blah blah blah.........

ofcourse nothing............when u see soemone rule ur country its pretty sweet, eh?
when u see ur grandparents leave their home and soil .........where they lived for yrs and yrs, its nothing, yeah..........right!
its all just brings my hatred toward******** which i tried to conceal, but cant!


BUSH QUOTE: every nation has the right to defend herself towards attack(terrorist :?: )

yes right..................then i got to say that the palestinian have their rights to attack back on israel!

i wont really blame the israelites or the palestinian................for what is exactly happening now.........

i only wish the palestinian get their independence..........
my friend told me that they (palestinians) r neither accepted in the arab world nor in israel!
i really hope/ pray for the liberty of palestine! insha allah they will get it soon!

i only got one question: why cant these jews who were once suppressed and killed ............no massacred some yrs ago want to take their revenge over palestinians? cant they just give them independene? or cant they simply ask the GOD who promised the holy land to them about the problems between jew and arabs? i kind of really wonder what THE GOD will say?


this is the link to the Norwegian peace center (http://www.nobelpeacecenter.org/index_en.html)

[alwarpet_andavan]

Nakkeeran,

Noam Chomsky on Lebanon - http://www.chomsky.info/articles/19960423.htm

[alwarpet_andavan]

[tscii:dd3e43e5cd]May 12, Masrah al Madina, Beirut. After Noam's lecture, there is an unexpected and particularly poignant moment. A young woman, maybe in her late 20's, comes up to Noam and just says "I am Kinda." She has one of Noam's books, Pirates and Emperors, where he reproduced the letter she wrote at the age of seven after the American air raid that destroyed her home in Tripoli, Libya, in April 1986. This was a terrorist attack that killed between 60 and 100 civilians, aptly characterized by American journalist Donald Neff at the time as "a demonstration of the bully [the Reagan administration] on the block picking a fight with the little guy [the Qaddafi regime]." Kinda asks Noam to sign the book; her mother is there too. Noam calls Carol over and they all meet. Kinda's letter read:

"Dear Mr Reagan

Why did you kill my only sister Rafa and my friend Racha, she is only nine, and my baby doll Strawberry. Is it true you want to kill us all because my father is Palestinian and you want to kill Kadafi because he wants to help us go back to my father's home and land.

My name is Kinda"
[/tscii:dd3e43e5cd]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[tscii:dd3e43e5cd].... of a murderous terrorist attack in March of 1985, now nearly forgotten in the West. At the time, a car-bomb operation in a populous section of West Beirut, organized by the CIA, was intended to assassinate Fadlallah. The bomb killed some 80 civilians and wounded over 200, though Fadlallah escaped serious injury.[7]

7. Bob Woodward and Charles R. Babcock, "CIA Tied to Beirut Bombing," International Herald Tribune (13 May 1985).
[/tscii:dd3e43e5cd]

http://www.chomsky.info/onchomsky/20060712.htm

[alwarpet_andavan]

By the way anyone who dismisses anythign said or written against U.S.A/Israel as "just another conspiracy theory" should please read a little bit about UN resolutions, [which two countries usually vetoed them especially] and also read declassified U.S documents like the Pentagon Papers which reveal much more about American Foreign Policy than any wild conspiracy theory can do :)

[Nakeeran]

AA

Thank u very much :D

I am going through all posts of yours & the links !

It says all :D

One think I am amazed with this Jew-Israelis is - with a tiny land , they are able to counter the threat from the entire gulf countries !!
Must be damn smart guys ! Pure survival instinct must have made them so aggressive :?:


Crazy

I could understand your concern :cry:

Cool

[Nakeeran]

Digression :

During 1991 gulf war, Saddam fired some scuds over Israel but I think they were countered by Patriots .
Saddam expected a full retaliation fm Israel but they kept quiet apparently under instructions / advice from US !

[kannannn]

SA - I know due to apartheid , the whole world was against them
Not quite, U.S.A was selectively a friend of S.A during the apartheid [the reign of Ronald "The Rogue" Reagan] for reasons obvious to anyone who knows about the real history of U.S
About India's stand w.r.t to Israel-Palestine, the UPA has taken an andhar bulti on its CMP promises [Common Minimum Programe] and has favored Israel over Palestine, thereby betraying the cause of the Palestines.
Add UK too!! Thatcher was also against sanctions against SA.

[ssanjinika]

Very interesting and informative guys :clap:
Good Job!
To whom does a piece of land belong..Jews because they believe that this is their promised land,or Palestinian Arabs who have had the land of centuries.How does one decide?By going back centuries?Wouldnt that be inhuman though?Centuries back the jews had their own land..where has that gone now?Can they get it back?I cant answer though I feel for both sides.Im inclined to look at Palestinian-Arabs more favourably because really it was their land which the UN "experts" :roll: had no right to give away.

[Nakeeran]

Very interesting and informative guys :clap:
Good Job!
To whom does a piece of land belong..Jews because they believe that this is their promised land,or Palestinian Arabs who have had the land of centuries.How does one decide?By going back centuries?Wouldnt that be inhuman though?Centuries back the jews had their own land..where has that gone now?Can they get it back?I cant answer though I feel for both sides.Im inclined to look at Palestinian-Arabs more favourably because really it was their land which the UN "experts" :roll: had no right to give away.

SS

Like what AA has suggested - Share & live with mutual respect - give & take could be the best solution -Else continuous battles for generations -endless trauma

Noone will win ultimately :cry:

Probably Jews are worried that even if an inch is given to PLO ( Hamas ) , they may ask for more

But one thing is for sure - the entire international community is watching this Israel - Palestine issue with more interest .

[Nakeeran]

SA - I know due to apartheid , the whole world was against them
Not quite, U.S.A was selectively a friend of S.A during the apartheid [the reign of Ronald "The Rogue" Reagan] for reasons obvious to anyone who knows about the real history of U.S
About India's stand w.r.t to Israel-Palestine, the UPA has taken an andhar bulti on its CMP promises [Common Minimum Programe] and has favored Israel over Palestine, thereby betraying the cause of the Palestines.
Add UK too!! Thatcher was also against sanctions against SA.

Vested interests no ? For centuries , Britishers have dominated SA & it took a 24 year imprisoned Nelson Mandela to set things right !

[crazy]

the land belongs to both!
but i wish palestinians get their own seperate country from israel!

[podalangai]

the land belongs to both!
but i wish palestinians get their own seperate country from israel!
Thangachchi, I think most Israelis also wish that now! The only problem is deciding who gets what area. Unfortunately, when people have so much hate for each other it is difficult to bridge even small gaps, and this gap is not exactly small. :(

[manuel]

Interesting to know that this Palestinians- Jews conflict is going on for so many years or centuries to say......... probably this is what happens where people do not mix and communities do not mingle with each other.
Though jews and palestinian arabs should co-exist with each other ..... Jews have managed to maintain their self identity over all these thousand of years even after so many opressions and exploitation happening against them.

While in India we have had so many invaders coming in from differrent parts of the world trying to conquer ... their race & culture were obviously differrent but their people once settled in this land, mingled and mixed with the native people and their individual identity has camouflaged.We are fortunate to have been saved of such bigger conflicts in our contry too.

[solona]

The land belonged to Jews according to the bible "promised land "but during the several crusades (holy wars) which took place between the christians and arabs the territoty was annexed to the arab kingdom. So both of them have equal rights on the territory.

The final point is to get togather and find a peaceful solution and unfortunately no one is interested in that.One of the few people who attempted were assasinated etc.
The hatred between the 2 communities has gone too far to find peace now.
Arial Sharon and his harsh measures towards Hamas and PLO worsened everything (death of Yassar Arafat too)
I always condemned Israel's present political attitude, should not consider the HAmas as a terrorist organisation, you can never have peaceful discussions with this attitude.

Yes they protect their citizens, we see what is happening to jews with all the BBC, CNN and stuff, no knows the real situation of the arabs in the refugee camps. they are so frustrted that they are even ready to become human bombs(which I condemn equally that is not a soluation) I saw a small boy killed by jewish soldier (AK47)in front of TV cameras, I shudder even now.

We are looking at problems with other races whereas a similar things happen right next to India under our noses.

I have more compassion for Palestiniens in this issue than Jews

[Nakeeran]

Israel ceded a portion to PLO sometime back & I thought things are coming back to normalcy but back to square one now :cry:
Arafat was virtually house arrested & after his death, the PLO looks like leaderless
Wonder in what Hamas will take Palestine ? US is against them & we all know the consequences

[crazy]

the land belongs to both!
but i wish palestinians get their own seperate country from israel!
Thangachchi, I think most Israelis also wish that now! The only problem is deciding who gets what area. Unfortunately, when people have so much hate for each other it is difficult to bridge even small gaps, and this gap is not exactly small. :(

Israelites............i donno, iam not sure either, but they always has this idea of being "GOD CHOSEN PEOPLE", Good Lord, i dont get it at all.
Muslims and Xristians they both believe in Judaism and have the same prophets, same ideas and most of all they happens to believe in the same GOD :?: but jews have 0 tolerance to muslims and muslims accuse jews that in the holy books of jews.............(whats that called torah, or sth :roll: ) its written that jews have the rights to kill non jews..............I DONT KNOW, iam just writing what i heard!

and jews on the other hand.............well they have 100s of reasons :roll:
but i think it time for the israelites to understand that their God has also created other to live on the very same earth and Holy land.

but its kind of dilemma, f.ins jerusalem belongs to all the 3 religions.............its already divided among muslims and jews, isnt? but its still fighting going on there...........i only hope palestian get their seperate land and i cant hope for them much more than it. i can never think of israelites will give more land to them and than what they already have, its hard to be passionate to jews, when u come to know the sad stories from a palestinian friend...........

why cant hezbollah just release these isralis soldiers and why cant the govt of lebanon........control the hezbollah, why cant the arab world interfere in this problem, why cant UN do nothing, why cant israel agree for ceasefire...............where is the rest of the world, r we all sleeping? and above all where is that God and those angels who promised land to these people...........i kind of wonde why these days we dont hear much about angels?(other than the book written by dan brown?

yesterday they were showing the hezhollah's press speaker or sth. he took the CNN reporter with him and showed those areas israel bombed and saying that those areas r suburbs and not hezbollahs bunker or sth.................and was telling again and again........that thay will teach israel a lesson...................!!!!!!!!!

what lesson.............i dont get it!? these people r really driving me crazy.............

and Iran...............whats wrong with them, iam pretty sure .........no one hates jews and israelites more than iranian president!

i think iran should rather mind their own business and try to solve all those things they have to work with, rather erasing israel from the world map.

and america............iam not going to blame them..........but wish they could speak with israel, since being the main nation that supports them!

and at last..............all I can do is to sit and watch TV and write stupid post.............which is not going make any difference to them!

[alwarpet_andavan]

i think iran should rather mind their own business and try to solve all those things they have to work with, rather erasing israel from the world map.

First let Big Daddy U.S.A and its best buddy Israel mind their own businesses....

[crazy]

Israel ceded a portion to PLO sometime back & I thought things are coming back to normalcy but back to square one now :cry:
Arafat was virtually house arrested & after his death, the PLO looks like leaderless
Wonder in what Hamas will take Palestine ? US is against them & we all know the consequences

anna we think in this way.............but many palestinian feel hamas is better than arafat and his party!

f.ins. my palestinian friend she was totally glad that hamas came into power!
i asked her why and she said "whats the point in ceasifire, we dont need ceasefire............we need our land, the independent palestine. we dont want to live under the control of israel"

so true..............she also was glad for arafats death.
she had so much negatives about him, it was all new for me. i who always thought him as a great leader..........
but america...............oh i forgot america is the second country on this earth which is promised my GOD :lol: GOD BLESS AMERICA. IN GOD WE TRUST and we trust in Satan :roll:

[manuel]

It is said that the very next day after the formation of Israel as an independant state all the 7 Arab countries jointly went on War against Israel, is that true ? and were Arabs Justified in doing so ? can anyone who knows the issue through some light on it.

[crazy]

i think iran should rather mind their own business and try to solve all those things they have to work with, rather erasing israel from the world map.

First let Big Daddy U.S.A and its best buddy Israel mind their own businesses....

why r telling me this? iam not for Israel and not at all for the USA?

[crazy]

It is said that the very next day after the formation of Israel as an independant state all the 7 Arab countries jointly went on War against Israel, is that true ? and were Arabs Justified in doing so ? can anyone who knows the issue through some light on it.

well i heard the same thing, but not sure

[crazy]

ARAB - ISRAELI WAR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War)

[dsath]

Here is link for an article for an abstract version about the birth of Israel and the war later.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2486589.stm

[dsath]

Israel is very powerful as it has the support of USA (credited to the all powerful Jewish lobby in America).
In order to defeat such a powerful combination what is required is a structured organized defense against Israel, which the Palestinians lack. If the Vietnamese could do it, surely the Palestinians could. Again, much like India, they lack a good leader. Its said that Arafat has swindled a lot of Palestine money. I don't think the Hamas is any better. The PLO was alright till it was fighting, but once on the seat of power they scattered and its very likely that Hamas or whatever they like to call themselves, will follow PLO's path.
If the P people want liberation, they should stop all this suicide bombing (which takes away the sympathy factor) and organize, equip and fight as an army one on one with the Israelis and defeat them. This can happen only if the Arab nations support them. With an outspoken Palestinian queen in Jordan's throne, they could also rope in Jordan's support (only if they try).
:sigh2:

[kannannn]

Thatcher was also against sanctions against SA.

Vested interests no ? For centuries , Britishers have dominated SA & it took a 24 year imprisoned Nelson Mandela to set things right !
Vested interests, because Communism was threatening to spread across Southern Africa and Brotherly Love. Thatcher even called ANC as terrorists.An interesting letter in the current 'Time' by a white South African: For decades there was propaganda that these people were terrorists, planning to kill us and today we are governed so well by the same people who have shown how racial relations should be..

why cant hezbollah just release these isralis soldiers
Simple! Israel has scores of political prisoners in its jails. Hezbollah wants their release. Such prisoners were earlier exchanged for a kidnapped Israeli bussinessman. Of course, the soldiers' families don't have that kind of influence..

f.ins. my palestinian friend she was totally glad that hamas came into power!
i asked her why and she said "whats the point in ceasifire, we dont need ceasefire............we need our land, the independent palestine. we dont want to live under the control of israel"
The irony is, the western powers (read UK and US), who shout about establishing democracy in Ukraine and Iraq, don't want to deal with Hamas, a democratically elected party. And Israel's reaction is all the more puzzling. They were the ones who encouraged the growth of Hamas to undermine PLO and Arafat's influence and now they want them to be disarmed.

[kannannn]

-repeated post-

[crazy]

HOW PATHETIC?!
:cry: :roll: :oops2: :shhh:

[podalangai]

It is said that the very next day after the formation of Israel as an independant state all the 7 Arab countries jointly went on War against Israel, is that true ? and were Arabs Justified in doing so ? can anyone who knows the issue through some light on it.
The background is that the UN came up with a plan to divide the area into two, one half for the Jews and one half for the Palestinians. The Arabs refused to accept partition, and all Arab countries declared war on Israel. Because of this, the partition plan was torn up and when the Arabs lost the war, the chance of having a Palestinian state disappeared. Most Palestinians fled Israel and became refugees in neighbouring Arab countries which forced them to live in refugee camps and refused to let them get citizenship or integrate into their society (except to some extent Jordan and Iraq).

[crazy]

USA AND UK........................the very democratic country :lol:

what they or what USA says is right, is democracy,is fair, is truth!


GOD BLESS AMERICA :roll:

[podalangai]

Israelites............i donno, iam not sure either, but they always has this idea of being "GOD CHOSEN PEOPLE", Good Lord, i dont get it at all.
Thangachchi, that is their religion, but the majority of Israelis are secular and don't take this idea so seriously.

Israel really wants a two-state solution today, with the Palestinians getting Gaza and a portion of the West Bank. This is not just because they are feeling generous. Most Israelis feel that if they do not do this, Palestinians will in some decades become the majority.

Palestinians, however, are not happy with getting just a portion of the West Bank, and they want the right to return to their ancestral homes in Israel proper. Many ordinary Palestinian people are prepared to give this up if they get something concrete in exchange, but because there is so much mistrust negotiating is difficult.

[podalangai]

If the P people want liberation, they should stop all this suicide bombing (which takes away the sympathy factor) and organize, equip and fight as an army one on one with the Israelis and defeat them.
dsath, this will never work. If it looks like Israel will be defeated, the US will intervene to save it. So much for being an unbiased mediator.


The irony is, the western powers (read UK and US), who shout about establishing democracy in Ukraine and Iraq, don't want to deal with Hamas, a democratically elected party.
Kannann, what they say is that they do not want to deal with a democratically elected party whose ideology they dislike. This is not completely hypocritical. They applied the same standards to Austria when they had a racist party in power and excluded it from many EU institutions.

But it is still wrong to apply it to the Palestinians. The Palestinians did not vote for Hamas because they support its ideology that Israel must be wiped off the map. They voted for it because Fatah was completely corrupt and Hamas was the only option. The West should realise this and make some allowance for it.

[crazy]

whatever ANNA iam getting sick of this topic!

iam leaving :wave:

[podalangai]

Anyway, it is very easy for us to sermonise and moralise about what should or should not be done. I don't think we're in a position to pass judgment unless we actually live through the pain which Palestinians go through every day under Israeli occupation, or vice versa.

[kannannn]

Israel really wants a two-state solution today, with the Palestinians getting Gaza and a portion of the West Bank. This is not just because they are feeling generous. Most Israelis feel that if they do not do this, Palestinians will in some decades become the majority.

Palestinians, however, are not happy with getting just a portion of the West Bank, and they want the right to return to their ancestral homes in Israel proper. Many ordinary Palestinian people are prepared to give this up if they get something concrete in exchange, but because there is so much mistrust negotiating is difficult.
Israel has never entertained the idea of the return of Palestinians displaced by previous wars. And the West Bank situation is serious. So many Jewish settlements have propped up in West Bank, that removing them will be one heck of a task for Israel. And Shimon Peres goes on TV and says that they are prepared to give most of West Bank back. Why most? Why not full West Bank? Until this attitude changes, Hamas will find supporters for its campaign.

Kannann, what they say is that they do not want to deal with a democratically elected party whose ideology they dislike. This is not completely hypocritical. They applied the same standards to Austria when they had a racist party in power and excluded it from many EU institutions.
Right. But the BNP still contests elections. Jean-Marie Le Pen does so too. What I meant was, they wouldn't have dealt with any government that didn't tow their line.

[alwarpet_andavan]

The background is that the UN came up with a plan to divide the area into two, one half for the Jews and one half for the Palestinians. The Arabs refused to accept partition, and all Arab countries declared war on Israel. Because of this, the partition plan was torn up and when the Arabs lost the war, the chance of having a Palestinian state disappeared. Most Palestinians fled Israel and became refugees in neighbouring Arab countries which forced them to live in refugee camps and refused to let them get citizenship or integrate into their society (except to some extent Jordan and Iraq).

Incorrect!

[podalangai]

The background is that the UN came up with a plan to divide the area into two, one half for the Jews and one half for the Palestinians. The Arabs refused to accept partition, and all Arab countries declared war on Israel. Because of this, the partition plan was torn up and when the Arabs lost the war, the chance of having a Palestinian state disappeared. Most Palestinians fled Israel and became refugees in neighbouring Arab countries which forced them to live in refugee camps and refused to let them get citizenship or integrate into their society (except to some extent Jordan and Iraq).

Incorrect!
What is incorrect? Are you saying that:
1. The UN did not come up with a partition plan, or
2. The Arabs accepted the partition plan, or
3. The Arabs did not lose the war, or
4. Palestinians did not flee Israel because of real and feared massacres, or
5. Arab countries like Lebanon gave them all citizenship and integrated them fully into their societies?

[podalangai]

Israel has never entertained the idea of the return of Palestinians displaced by previous wars. And the West Bank situation is serious. So many Jewish settlements have propped up in West Bank, that removing them will be one heck of a task for Israel. And Shimon Peres goes on TV and says that they are prepared to give most of West Bank back. Why most? Why not full West Bank? Until this attitude changes, Hamas will find supporters for its campaign.
Yes, I'm not disagreeing with you, Kannann. I'm just trying to point out the huge gulf between what concessions the two sides are prepared to make. Unfortunately, since the Palestinians are in the weaker position, they are being pushed to the wall by Israel.

[alwarpet_andavan]

[tscii:85a9f480d5]

What is incorrect? Are you saying that:
1. The UN did not come up with a partition plan, or
2. The Arabs accepted the partition plan, or
3. The Arabs did not lose the war, or
4. Palestinians did not flee Israel because of real and feared massacres, or
5. Arab countries like Lebanon gave them all citizenship and integrated them fully into their societies?

Your claim of Israel/Palestine being "equally" divided is not quite an accurate description.
Palestine were easily the majority population and yet
a) Palestinian land was supposed to be less than 50%
b) Even the area given to Palestine was cut up to suit Israeli domination
It was not a fair deal.....

Plus, Ben Gurion said in 1938 that
“after we become a strong force, as the result of the creation of a state, we shall abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine.”

Menachem Begin said after the partition “The partition of the Homeland is illegal . It will never be recognized.The signature of institutions and individuals of the partition agreement is invalid. It will not bind the Jewish people. Jerusalem was and will forever be our capital. Eretz Israel (the land of Israel) will be restored to the people of Israel, All of it. And forever“.
"A partial Jewish state is not the end, but only the beginning ... I am certain that we will not be prevented from settling in the other parts of the country, either by mutual agreement with our Arab neighbors or by some other means...we shall have to speak to them in a different language. But we shall only have another language if we have a state."

Noam Chomsky, in the book 'Understanding Power: The Indispensable Chomsky' observes
"The Zionists were by far the more powerful and better organized force, and by May 1948, when the state of Israel was formally established, about 300,000 Palestinians already had been expelled from their homes or had fled the fighting, and the Zionists controlled a region well beyond the area of the original Jewish state that had been proposed by the UN. Now it's then that Israel was attacked by its neighbors - in May 1948; it's then, after the Zionists had taken control of this much larger part of the region and hundreds of thousands of civilians had been forced out, not before."
[/tscii:85a9f480d5]

[podalangai]

Fairness is disputable. A large chunk of Israel's territory was the Negev which was then thought to be uninhabitable. And the Palestinians were supposed to get nearly all the highlands, which were the main malaria-free area at the time. So of the habitable lands, they would have gotten more than half.

But anyway, this is history. What really matters from today's perspective is that they ended up getting almost nothing, and that is the injustice that lies at the heart of today's problem.

[dsath]

If the P people want liberation, they should stop all this suicide bombing (which takes away the sympathy factor) and organize, equip and fight as an army one on one with the Israelis and defeat them.
dsath, this will never work. If it looks like Israel will be defeated, the US will intervene to save it. So much for being an unbiased mediator.

You are right Podalangai. My post was more of desperation and less of logic. The Palestinians current approach of suicide bombings will also not help them. And as far as Hamas goes, its just a PLO in making. I remember a reformed Muslim militant saying in TV that 'they know how to fight and die but not to live and rule'.
Anyway i think its hypocrisy on part of Indians to be sympathetic to the Palestinian cause with Kashmir unsolved in our own back garden.

[alwarpet_andavan]

Noam solraarunna, athula artham irukkum....
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14081.htm

[Nakeeran]

If the P people want liberation, they should stop all this suicide bombing (which takes away the sympathy factor) and organize, equip and fight as an army one on one with the Israelis and defeat them.
dsath, this will never work. If it looks like Israel will be defeated, the US will intervene to save it. So much for being an unbiased mediator.

You are right Podalangai. My post was more of desperation and less of logic. The Palestinians current approach of suicide bombings will also not help them. And as far as Hamas goes, its just a PLO in making. I remember a reformed Muslim militant saying in TV that 'they know how to fight and die but not to live and rule'.
Anyway i think its hypocrisy on part of Indians to be sympathetic to the Palestinian cause with Kashmir unsolved in our own back garden.

Dsath

R u seeing similarity between Palestine issue & Kashmir ?
I thought Kashmir is an issue which has to be decided by the LOCALS THERE . with whom , they wish to live with - India or Pak.
If they are really sharp, they should ally with us as OUR GOVT WILL CONTINUE TO POUR WITH CONCESSIONS, ALLOWANCES , EXEMPTIONS etc

[kannannn]

Noam solraarunna, athula artham irukkum....
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14081.htm
Does Chomsky criticize Hezbollah for starting the attack on second front? I don't understand that part. He appears to be blaming Hezbollah for bringing about the attack on Lebonan. Have I not understood something here?

[dsath]

Dsath

R u seeing similarity between Palestine issue & Kashmir ?
I thought Kashmir is an issue which has to be decided by the LOCALS THERE . with whom , they wish to live with - India or Pak.
If they are really sharp, they should ally with us as OUR GOVT WILL CONTINUE TO POUR WITH CONCESSIONS, ALLOWANCES , EXEMPTIONS etc
The Kashmiris don't have a say just like the Palestinians. Some part of their homeland has been taken by Pakistan and some by India. Just like the Palestinians some Kashmiris(Pandits) have been removed from their own homeland and no one knows when and if they will return back.
Have all those Concessions, allowances and exemptions had any positive effects on the state. Nothing none at all.
Nakeeran, i am sure you should have heard abt the Human Rights violation done by our army in Kashmir. Why would they want to ally with the Indian Govt?

[dsath]

Noam solraarunna, athula artham irukkum....
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14081.htm
Does Chomsky criticize Hezbollah for starting the attack on second front? I don't understand that part. He appears to be blaming Hezbollah for bringing about the attack on Lebonan. Have I not understood something here?
I think Hezbollah has been planning for this kind of attack for some time and is well organized to see this conflict to the end. Esp when the political scene in Israel is a bit vague. I think its Israel that has been taken by surprise.

[Nakeeran]

[quote="dsathHave all those Concessions, allowances and exemptions had any positive effects on the state. Nothing none at all.
Nakeeran, i am sure you should have heard abt the Human Rights violation done by our army in Kashmir. Why would they want to ally with the Indian Govt?[/quote]

Dsath

Wonder why despite several concessions given, why the benefits have not been reaped ? As usual, all went to Politicians ?

Second, pl consider the plight of the army - they ( none ) dont know who is good or bad but will have to face every terrorist amongst a civilian. In the process, they might have abducted some innocent guy . I dont deny. but generally, the army maintains its discipline no ?

On Israel-Lebanon - I saw one news item - Bush was squarely blaming Hezbollah for this current mess.

[dsath]

Second, pl consider the plight of the army - they ( none ) dont know who is good or bad but will have to face every terrorist amongst a civilian. In the process, they might have abducted some innocent guy . I dont deny. but generally, the army maintains its discipline no ?

Thats up to you to interpret. I am not into defaming our army (many of my close relatives are in the army), but one has only to look into their track record in Sri Lanka and our very own States like Nagaland.


On Israel-Lebanon - I saw one news item - Bush was squarely blaming Hezbollah for this current mess.
Surprise surprise!!!!!!!!!

[rocketboy]

<digression>

How about a discussion on 1962 Indo-China conflict?

I have in my possession some documents which explain in great detail the events that led to the war. I am not sure if these documents are in public domain.
Moreover I was not born when this war took place. So will be pleased if someone from that period shares some information.

Any takers ?

</digression>

[nilavupriyan]

Who own the land..the first intruders or the last intruders??

All over the world people fight for their own land??..where does this own land concept comes from?..the truth is people keep roaming when centuries roll..an article based on the research of BBC says that the basis of human being is from south africa and all people moved from there to other parts of the world..we keep roaming..thats the truth..now can we ask the aryans to move out of dravidian land?..they have equal rights..isnt it!

Similarly regarding India Pakistan struggle on Kashmir..Im an Indian..so I support India...but if Im a paki..I would have supported them..they is a long story on it..how our Nehru promised on voting and then rejected by the advice of Patel...I duno what the Kashmiri people think abt it.. :roll: it depends where we are born!

I thought Israel is unsafe between the arab nations..But they are making all other nations unsafe..Americans are really making the muslims so angry..I dont know what it may lead to....

Its the duty of a Democratis country like India to involve in this issue and make something .....not kai kattifying for America for their nuclear treaty.....we must not become a Pakistan..Vaajbai is much better i think!..i guess our views egarding world politics are not changing in America side!..

I beleif once we had a good relationship with Iraq and the arab nations..now why support Israel suddenly..only for U.S.A?

[dsath]

An article exploring the rise of Hezbollah.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5222154.stm

[alwarpet_andavan]

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-7828123714384920696&q=media+israel

Must See. Compells viewing

Excellent program comparing the reporting of the conflict in American media with that of the rest of the world

Will explain what occupation and oppression mean.
The irony is that the American media is more pro-Israel than even Israeli media!

[c4ramesh]

Hi guys,

I am here after a short gap.

I found these and was socked to see how the media has turned against Israel in the israel-hizbolla crisis.

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=21956_Reuters_Doctoring_Photos_from_Beirut&only

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/184206.php

http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/07/milking-it.html

http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/07/who-is-this-man.html

http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/08/game-set-and-match.html

http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/08/stretcher-alley.html

http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/08/qana-directors-cut.html

Reuters admits altering photo


http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3286966,00.html
I have seen many more, Its really shocking now, we can't even belive the media.

[gaddeswarup]

Here is a thoughtful article:
Daniel Levy on the conflict:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/746312.html
Daniel Levy was a member of the official Israeli negotiating team at
the Oslo and Taba talks and the lead Israeli drafter of the Geneva
Initiative.
Another;
http://in.rediff.com/news/2006/aug/01bidwai.htm
An interesting perspective from:
http://scienceblogs.com/effectmeasure/2006/08/what_hesbollah_can_teach_publi.php#more

[suriasuria]

[tscii:8c6d3e7cee] Shiites and Sunnis killing one another is prelude to taking over the West.
Former Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu bluntly informed Britain that London is next on the Islamic bomber hit list, per Stan Goodenough of Jerusalem Newswire.

At Sky News TV, Netanyahu set forth that Israel is combating Muslim murderers to save not only Israel but Britain from Islamic fire. Therefore, he reasoned that if Britain were smart, it would not find fault with Israel in the present conflict. Instead, it would bolster Israel against Hezbollah.

"’The big problem, the mother of all problems is Iran [and] the fact that if it arms itself with nuclear weapons it already has the missiles to reach London and soon it will have the missiles to reach the United States.

"’They’re developing those missiles, not because they want to target Israel, they already can, but because they want to target you,’" he explained.

He said that Shiites and Sunnis are killing one another as a prelude to bloodletting throughout the free world for Islam world rule. Israel is the start of the conquest of the rest of the world. Having done in Israel, Islamic killers international will "’turn greedily their eyes toward Europe.’"

He went on: "So unless the West wakes up and realizes that there is a new fascism here, a new Islamic-Hitlerism that threatens the West, it will not wake up in time."

Why then, Netanyahu asked, was Britain displaying condemnation of Israel defending itself? The former Israeli PM could not understand Britain, he said. Seventy-seven percent of Britons polled believe Israel is acting disproportionately in its fight against the Hezbollah.

"’What would you be saying today, what would you ask Tony Blair, the prime minister of Britain, to do today if London was being hit by hundreds and indeed thousands of rockets?

"’You would be screaming your head off, saying, "Get rid of the source of that fire!"’"

He went on to praise Prime Minister Winston Churchill in defending Britain by bombing German cities such as Dresden. "Dresden was wiped out completely," he pointed out.

"Jerusalem Newswire believes that the stubborn and pride-driven insistence of politically-correct, and in many cases anti-Semitic, British journalists and politicians to criticize and condemn Israel for trying to crush Hizb’allah will ultimately help pave the way for a devastating rocket strike on the UK."[/tscii:8c6d3e7cee]