A celebration of Greek Masks: Natyashilpam to faust to Gotte

[Oldposts]

Topic started by robin (schubert46@hotmail.com) (@ 202.54.93.137) on Thu Jun 21 14:10:54 .




Beyond the tradition of the hermeneutics, is the end of meaning. And in the myth of the democracy on the Internet rests the end of hermeneutics. The ideals of the 1970’s cognitive science revolution has gone through the utmost of intellectual prostitution, in deceitful conceit of corporate directed governments and sovereignty. Far from the ethos of the mathematical cognitive scientists like Tim burners lee and Marvin minsky. The development of the media and the communication revolution has only gone to the consolidification of the class structure, excluding the ones who are outside the realms of the net and its ethos.

The destruction of the hermeneutics is a crusade done by the elite who think that they sponsor the breath of the entire world at their mercy. That it is time we realize that democracy is not about choice but about the right and extend to information almost in the purity of the information as defined by Claude E Shannon. That choices are made on information and that the restriction of information would inevitably mean the control of choice and thereby democracy. That democracy is more than farce in a world where the worth of the speaker is the geographical location of the message than the semantic-connotational content of the concept. And which ironically in a world that speaks about a globe, which if Mercator were to sail today would turn out to be the four corners of the columbicana.

Pax-Americana is here but it is as uneasy as freezing cold. The new lingo is ‘cool’, far from the maxim of Karl bendit Cohen 30 years ago, which was ‘hot’. One could only wish that it does not get so ‘cool’ as to freeze. But all that it says is that Hegel was right or rather is right that the thesis of the 60’s have led to the antithesis of the late 90’s. Who said dialectical progression is a myth? Marx was right, I guess despite the American propaganda and the angel of death, McCarthy; which I think was Columbicana’s ‘triumph of the will’. And of people who continue the tradition of the politician being responsible for all the demise and misfortune, so what about the silence on the information blockade?

Machiavelli has grown at last you wouldn’t find him in the parliament building; you will find him here, amongst us, we, you, me, and I. Of people who live in the columbicana dream and cannot think of a job out side the shores of NEW-FANGLED England. And yes think of it who is columbicana? The dreamer of the columbicana dream, right!!!! So who is globalization, the very people who speak of it, as a cyclopean image is the people who have created it.

The ethos of the cognitive revolution in its idealistic endeavor was the celebration of the Greek masks. Like the Greek masks that celebrated the ideal as personified human form, like the Greek masks that celebrated the individual HERO as a representative of the many unsung, like the Greek mask that concealed the face of the HERO in order to give a face to the unsung, the Internet democracy is the actualization of the Greek masks. The celebration of the human world as a ‘Global brain’. But far from the ethos of the cybernetic-connectionist-cognitive revolution the Brahmins of the ‘land of the brave’ have taken the new task as ‘burden of The land of the free’, the only change that has happened since the jungle boy dreamt of a ‘white man’s burden’. So how global is global, why did the Prague spring did not spring in 1967 why did Prague 2000 not blossom into the child of hope of 2001 an odyssey that never not took off. And yes where is hal. Have our ‘Global’ paranoia killed him too before he could go mad.

But the voices of the human condition are the ultimate of all the voices and its ethos. In it the censorship and the policing of those who took the net from the students of the 1970’s (Hawaii) and north-east (media lab) cannot last. Democracy is a farce with its twin brother called censor board the elite who sits in the throne of the first estate, IN the Name of the Father, and the God, May be the son, and by the courtesy of steinem, it could soon be daughter. I thought equality was human. I wonder whether people have heard that expression called HUMAN. That democracy has been based on the censorship, and that, is the farce of the idea. The farce of Christopher Marlow, as I call it. But the refuge is Goethe, because he knew that the eternal Faust exists because of the Mephistopheles that seeks him to the greatest of human endeavor. So why hate Mephistopheles. Will the Faust exist without the mephisto? May be mephisto is Faust. And why not. The net is a mirror and the extent to which it becomes a symbol of the scandal and disgrace the more it will be reflecting the repression in the DEMOCRATIC world of CONTROLLED choice and Information. If people use the net to be scandalous that is only an image to the extend to which people have been repressed. But soon the twilight shall dawn, that will be the twilight of the gods, and Hans Sachs shall sing in the finest of the mastersingers. But amongst all shall last the dreams of the Greek masks and the hermeneutics of the fertile cow that represents the generativity of life and the altruistic expression of human ethos that shall live in the trains of the Hungarian deportees of Raoul wallenberg, the greatest of the Greek masks.

Faust: ‘Tis writ: ‘In the beginning was the word!’
I pause, to wonder what is here inferred?
The word I cannot set supremely high,
A new translation I will try.
I read, If by the spirit I am taught,
This sense: ‘In the beginning was the thought’.
This opening I need to weigh again,
Or sense may suffer from a hasty pen.
Does thought create, and work, and rule the hour?
T were best: ‘ In the beginning was the power!’
Yet, while the pen is urged with willing fingers,
A sense of doubt and hesitancy lingers.
The spirit come to guide me in need,
I write, In the beginning was the deed!’

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe.
Faust I Transl. Philip Wayne (penguin classics; London).

The deed, I think, is the understanding of the world in the natyashilpam of the human expression. The quintessence, that is in the minds of all the people, even beyond the borders of the land/s of the brave and the free.

[Oldposts]

Robin,

I am still tying to digest what you wrote.

I want to keep this thread alive and not pushed into oblivion. Hence this post.

[Oldposts]

Thank you very much Madurai veeran, for the encouraging reply. I was waiting all this time for your reply :)) I feel privileged to be acknowledged by a person like you.

[Oldposts]

Robin,

This is the problem that I have with your writing style. If you are trying to impress a scholarly audience or writing a technical paper, the language that you used may be appropriate. But to provoke thought, you need to simplify. Your post comes across as bombastic article full of buzz words. I think that is not your intention.

Writing to a general audience in simple language takes a lot of effort and I am sure you can do it. Otherwise, there is a chance that people may not understand you or worse may not even read you. I hope you will take this as a healthy criticism.

Now can you write in simple sentences, in your own words, without relying on quotes, what you want to say in 3 paras or less? Thanks. :-)).

[Oldposts]

Dear Mani M manivannan,
Thank you for your feedback.
Whatever I have written has been written by me in my own abilities to make it simpler. Though I might have failed in being simpler, to a large extend.

Moreover sometimes it is hard to put some ideas in 3 para or less. But I will try my best to do so in my later posts. Though I have seen many posts in this forum by many people, which is not just 3 para but three pages:))

And yes I am taking this as healthy criticism

I have tried to provoke thought in my own limited capabilities and knowledge. If what I have written is not up to the mark then the people who know better should create fruitful discussions. Since that was not happening, I tried to write something in my own limited capabilities.

Anyway, I don’t think, that should be such an issue. I have not abused anyone here or disrupted any general discussion. My only aim was to bring forth worthwhile discussions. That, I think is not such a great error.

Besides people have their own personal styles of writing. Some might find it hard, or simple, or complex, or bombastic or whatever one may call it. Influences grow and as the media grows many influences will influence the shape of the writing. But yes, it is also important to get the intended meaning across while maintaining ones style. I will try better, next time to do so. :))

In the meantime, you have criticized my writing style, why don't you please criticize my writing. That, hopefully might create some discussion. I am not keen on being right, or on proving theories, or impressing others. I only want to exchange ideas with people, and that is all that I want. So if you feel that you do not agree with what I have written then please write so, and many more could join the discussion. That, after all is the purpose. I just want to exchange ideas and try to see if something new comes of it. That is the magic of internet. And it used to happen in the forumhub.com until not so long ago.

With people like you and madurai veeran and ravi sundaram, anu nair, sugrutha, cheese, sujata, siby koodaloor, Vj, V Sundar, and a whole lot of people whom I have not mentioned, we can attain much more. And that is the purpose.

with respects
from robin

[Oldposts]

Dear Robin,

Thanks for essencing the biography of Mind. I am fascinated. It affirms many of my thought suspects while raising more.

I am nowhere as well read and "reflected" as you are in the philosophical areas of your article. How critical is it for one to comprehend the various philosophical personalities you mention, so as not to miss key parts of what you are conveying? I suspect it is not that critical, no?

Do you have any other writings that I can read?

BTW, do you see a congruence between the Siva Natarajah (the dance of Siva) metaphor and Natyashilpam?

My mind wants to coalesce its impulses before responding more.

And while I do that here's a quote for Madurai Veeran to get his mind ticking on the entry into your essay.

Why Hermeneutics - the art, science and beyond of interpretation? "We always mean more than we say, and say more than we mean."

Michael Polanyi (paraphrased)
http://www.hkbu.edu.hk/~ppp/syl/R2250.html (http://www.hkbu.edu.hk/~ppp/syl/R2250.html
)

anbudan.../bala
Bala Pillai
Founder, Thamil Innaiyam (since 1995)
http://www.tamil.net/lists/tamil (http://www.tamil.net/lists/tamil
)

[Oldposts]

Webern Silence...............




>>BTW, do you see a congruence between the Siva Natarajah (the dance of Siva) metaphor and Natyashilpam? <<


The best way to communicate and construct certain ideas is through silence and the endurance of time I realize

A long while have I waited to answer.........that I think is the best way to answer it........

where does music end and mathematics begin.......
where does silence end and music begin

or are they different


webern was right..........


Dear Bala Pillai, please let your ideas gush through I am sure it will turn music. Please do write.

[Oldposts]

Robin,
Tht was a wonderful post...u r just too optimistic!
"But soon the twilight shall dawn, that will be the twilight of the gods, and Hans Sachs shall sing in the finest of the mastersingers"...wow!

Why? I don't quite get to that. as I see it u have analysed the prob and put it down to a faust-mephistopheles metaphor, with an ambiguity at the end..rather like the marxist ideologues who say that after one class struggle the roles would be reversed, the oppressed becomes the oppressor etc..well here's my take on it. I'm outright pessimistic - coz I think that's the reality. Take any concept - when applied to anything practical it poses contradictions to itself which strongly limits the usefulness of the application. in fact human tendency is to pursue the concept to the extreme - simply coz blind faith is so much more easy than to sit down and think about alternatives. With any concept comes imposition and repression, there's no getting away from that. What we might also see is a shift of the power position from one area to another. As to scandalous behavior on the net, perhaps there are a few sociological causes to it too, i guess.

'That it is time we realize that democracy is not about choice but about the right and extend to information almost in the purity of the information as defined by Claude E Shannon'

Shannon's theory is just like any other mathematical theory...it decides the signal to noise ratio, right but does it decide the value of the information? we need to go one step beyond Shannon....we need to improvise shannon's filtering mechanism into one in which all these useless information we are surrounded with, gets filtered out as noise.

[Oldposts]

PS: censorship is just one such filtering mechanism but in most cases with some limited aims. what we need is to broaden the limits of the censor - not do away with it altogether.

[Oldposts]

I have read but little of Goethe but found a couple of his quotes inspiring.

'All that is wise has been thought already, we can only try to think of it once more'

'He who is well provided from within needs but little from without'

I will get back to the main subject of this message later. Bye now.

[Oldposts]

Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 07:55:38 +1000
To: tamil@tamil.net
From: Bala Pillai
Subject: Greek Masks & Introduction to Greek Stagecraft
Cc: agathiyar@yahoogroups.com, erumbugal@yahoogroups.com
Bcc: raju nirmala , prem l , yamunarn@hotmail.com

Anbulla Thamil Innaiya Nanbargale,

I'm very curious about the persuasive power of masks and ways of overcoming them.

Obvious masks and discrete masks. An example of a discrete mask is when the grandson of a thief who used guns to rob banks chooses to become a briefcase carrying lawyer who does hundreds of times the damage his grandfather does and subverts language and rhetoric to the fullest for this end.

I am curious whether the masks I saw in Bali and the Greek masks were used in theatre to demask hidden masks.

Here's a URL to start you off :-)

http://didaskalia.berkeley.edu/stagecraft/greek.html (http://didaskalia.berkeley.edu/stagecraft/greek.html
)

anbudan../bala
bala@tamil.net

p.s. thanks to Seattle Poopathi Manickam, London Nirmala Raju and somewhere-in-cyberspace Robin for feeding the atoms that became this molecule of thought in my head :-).

[Oldposts]

Robin:
I am responding for the same reason that MV chose to: to prevent this thread from getting into oblivion :-)

Hello Bala Pillai/ Anu:
Robin has raised hands and pleads his inability to write any simpler; Can you spend some time to detail what exactly is this topic about and what is "hermeneutics" and what has 'masks' (even as a metaphor) got to do with this topic. Thanks.

[Oldposts]

I have no idea what 'hermeneutics' means but here's my understanding of robin's post:

I think Robin is trying to explain why certain ppl make use of the anonymity of the net to indulge in scandalous behaviour.He traces it back to the concept of democracy, as it is currently understood and practised. It is not merely about choice but about the right to information as well. Taken in this perspective, censorship of the media has ensured that democracy is not followed anywhere in the world. Herein lies the importance of the internet, since it heralds information uncensored for one and all. Where disgraceful behaviour is perceived in the net, it can be traced back to the repression in the democratic world.

Robin,
of course this interpretation doesn't give justice to your post....I might understand it better once I learn more about concepts like hermeneutics and cognitive revolution :)

[Oldposts]

Thanks, Anu.

[Oldposts]

Srini,

Here is a link that will explain

Hermeneutics.http://www.ai.mit.edu/people/jcma/papers/1986-ai-memo-871/memo.html (http://www.ai.mit.edu/people/jcma/papers/1986-ai-memo-871/memo.html
)

I once made a remark in one of the threads wherein I said, the Net is the greatest thing to happen and that it gave voice to the voice-less, the great force of democratization to enable every individual to excercise his freedom of speech. Or something to this effect.

Robin, in her arugment questions my perception - among other things. Why do I need a mask to exercise my freedom of speech?

[Oldposts]

Positively INSPIRING !!!!!!
I hope that sums up my thoughts !!!!!!

[Oldposts]

Dear MV:

That's a great link and a new thing for me. I have after all, seen and benefited by you post nearly 6 months after you recommended.

FYKI, no commentary/ exposiiton on philosophy is regarded as complete in Indian scheme of things without recourse to Epistemology and Ontology. In that, Hermeneutics has had its role in ancient India too, by some other name and perhaps more as a tool than as a subject of discussion by itself.

[Oldposts]

As i have observed elsewhere previously - even understanding the initial post of robin was a great difficult task - what with all the literary and other terminoly that was involved.

Madurai veeran's post and Anu's post helped us "mere mortals" - to get a hold of what was the gist of the thing that robin was intending to say.

But it is plausible from her initial post iself that she's referring to the "choking of info" and "thought processes" in the "brave new world" - by "vested interests" - both in virtal and real world - and the need for those who swear by - "Freedom of expression" to stand up and be counted - in this frontier domain of the "free & open new world" that is the net.

More subtle things might have come out of a threadbare discussion about - these "Symbolic expressions", but unfortunately this topic seems to have enthused very few - may be coz of its seemingly 'pompous' language.

[Oldposts]

* what with all the literary and other terminology that was involved

[Oldposts]

I would say that in the present context of "freedom of speech" in this forumhub and the attendant implications due to how people use / misuse it - too - this particular thread is very much valid.

I especially liked the initial comments and clarifications given by various ppl.

i can see that Mr. Bala pillai participating here, and giving some links for a better understanding of the term "greek mask".

He also raised certain queries to which (as usual!) robin had replied crypticaly!!!

This could have been a great thread if Forumhub stalwarts and grand oldies like mani manivanan, kumar kumarapan, bala pillai, madurai veeran and gdravid had participated here! - and it wud have been a feast for a lot of us - to just browse thru their lucid points.

I hope this thread would be cariied forward to the new hub - and Forumhub greats would visit this thread and share their views afresh

:=)
<a name="last"></a>

[geno]

More and more people should come forward to write in this thread - as the subject has deep import and is contextually a very valid and relevant one.

Online forums like this forumhub have given voice to the millions of voiceless and has helped in "broadcasting" the most feeblest of the voices from the society.

Instead of useless analysis of "wasted time & effort" spent on online forums - it may be better if we sought to share our thoughts on serious issues which beckon our attention.

The future world needs a clearer sense of "freedom(s)" - and rare & insightful discourses like the one which was sought to be embarked upon - by the author of this thread "robin" - could lend some clarity of thought on those vital issues, which need to be re-defined, refined and articulated.

Old hubbers like Mr. Bala pillai, Mr. Madurai veeran, Ms. Anu and the author of this thread Mr/Ms robin - should consider coming back to this thread and write more :)

[NOV]

Sanitized.
Pls proceed with your discussions.

[geno]

I once made a remark in one of the threads wherein I said, the Net is the greatest thing to happen and that it gave voice to the voice-less, the great force of democratization to enable every individual to excercise his freedom of speech. Or something to this effect.

Robin (the author of this thread), in her arugment questions my perception - among other things.

Why do I need a mask to exercise my freedom of speech?





Contemplating on that query would be a good startin point to brood over the beginning post of Robin and the intent of this thread :)

[geno]

I'm very curious about the persuasive power of masks and ways of overcoming them.

Obvious masks and discrete masks.

An example of a discrete mask is when the grandson of a thief who used guns to rob banks chooses to become a briefcase carrying lawyer who does hundreds of times the damage his grandfather does and subverts language and rhetoric to the fullest for this end.

I am curious whether the masks I saw in Bali and the Greek masks were used in theatre to demask hidden masks.

That is another good one from MR.Bala pillai.

How is the "Greek mask" related to the "state of freedom of speech" and its natures and the implications, mainly on the internet .....

More questions and more layered thoughts are invoked which swirl in seemingly endless moorings :)

[geno]

Sanitized.
Pls proceed with your discussions.

NOV,

The original title of this thread "A celebration of Greek Masks: Natyashilpam to faust to Gotterdammerung"

The Title is truncated..please restore it in full :)

Since "greek masks", "faust" and "Gotterdammerung" are used in a specific context - i urge you to restore the full name of this threads title..other wise the whole purpose may go meaningless. :)

One of the "Terms" in the title explained :

Gotterdammerung

got-ter-dam-mer-ung or Got-ter-dam-mer-ung (noun)

* A turbulent ending of a regime or an institution:

* The nation had been flirting with forms of gotterdammerung, with extremes of vocabulary and behavior and an appetite for violent resolution” (Lance Morrow).

* [After Gotterdammerung, an opera by Richard Wagner]

* German Gotter - genitive plural of Gott - god (from Middle High German got, from Old High German)

* German Dammerung - twilight (from Middle High German demerunge, from Old High German demerunga, from demar - twilight).

Will do more "terms' later :)

[RR]

geno, we didn't do it. The title was so long that phpbb truncated it automatically.

[Cygnus]

Reviving a very needed discussion in these testing times..... :)

[Cygnus]

As geno has pointed out earlier, it would be a herculean task to decipher Robin's entire post. Whatever I have understood so far, is courtesy of the discussions between MV, Bala Pillai, Anu and Manivannan.

Anyway, I found this part interesting


Democracy is a farce with its twin brother called censor board the elite who sits in the throne of the first estate, IN the Name of the Father, and the God, May be the son, and by the courtesy of steinem, it could soon be daughter.

:thumbsup:

Is this topic relelvant in the new hub more than in the old hub, I would say YES!!!

For example, this past week in the Chennai Vs B'lore thread, Jaiganesh made a comment which was condemned as inappropriate, to say the least, by many hubbers. As soon as Jaiganesh apologized, the entire discussion was deleted. It is as if it never happened!!!

Jaiganesh expressed an opinion - whether in haste or good sense - it was an opinion that did not wash well with the majority. They retorted and pointed out the flaw in that observation. Isn't this what we are doing here? Exchanging ideas in this "platform for meeting, interaction and collaboration of minds" :?:

The new hub is sans gub for sure, but sans the freedom to express too, which the hub is all about!!! :(

[Roshan]

cygnus,

I totally agree with you on this. I still dont understand why those posts in Chennai Vs B'lore thread was removed. Whether good or bad what JG said was totally related to the subject and the subsequent protest by us were related to his opinion. I still dont understand what was the logic behind the deletion. After JG's apology just a request by the moderator to stick to the topic without insulting any place or person should have been the appropriate thing to do. When I raised the question against Mr.moderator's decision to delete - all my posts were deleted then and there. Good that you revived this thread and and raised the issue. But will our posts survive? or atleast will this thread survive without being locked or removed? I donnno . :evil:

[blahblah]

I saw a new thread this morning to my surprise from BB,who was absent for sometime.He has raised a point there.Why are some posts deleted while they don't deserve such treatment and some stay when they appear to be abusive and irrelevent to the topic under discussion?If everyone complains,may be they have some valid reason for it. :?

[geno]

reviving the thread in the hope that someone as interesting as kid-glove (whether or not one agrees with him!) would post here!