Counter Point in TFM

[Oldposts]

Topic started by Srikanth (jsri@prodigy.net) (@ 207.122.201.68) on Tue Aug 25 13:42:31 EDT 1998.


What is so Great about Counter pointing ?

My Best counterpoint TFM composers
1 MSV.
2 IR.
3 Karthick Raja.
4 SG.

Shall we discuss , (taking one song at a time).

Srikanth.D

[Oldposts]

Srikanth: Isn't a description of what is counterpoint needed here?

[Oldposts]

Hi,
Counter Point :
Example in Real audio, I have played a counter point from Raja, hear and get the idea of counter point.

http://jsri.fsn.net/counter.htm (http://jsri.fsn.net/counter.htm
)


If any questions , I am ready

Srikanth

[Oldposts]

For the sake of us unfortunate ones who both dont know what counterpoint is and dont have hardware for audio, is there any text explanation somewhere? Or can you provide it yourself? Please!

[Oldposts]

Srikanth, You are right MSV, a pioneer in this, should be on top of the list. I think IR considers as MSV as great mainly for this reason, I think. IR,
like you have rightly observed heavily makes use of this. I like IR mainly for this. But only recently discovered this in MSV. I was listening to PB
Sreenivas hits (mostly by MSV-Ramamurthy, some by KVM) yesterday and really enjoyed it, (even though it does not sound so good on my
system :-))

[Oldposts]

Or maybe it is explainable only by listening to something! Anyway, when I tried the site given by you I got a message This document is not a
RealAudio document I dont know if this is because of something not present in my machine!

[Oldposts]

Srikanth..thanks for enlightening me. I was looking for a word to describe this.
One of my most favourite songs with counterpoints "sevvaanathil oru natshathiram" by TMS & PS (violin). Another one "Chittukuruvi mutham koduthu". IR too has done great work in this.

[Oldposts]

1. Second interlude guitar (acoustic and electric) phrase from the song "Devan Koil Deepam Ondru". S.Janaki version is in stereo. Surendar/Janaki version is in mono.

2. "Ninaivo Oru Paravai" pallavi.

3. "Paatu thalaivan paadinaal paatu thaan". Last phrase of second interlude. Just brilliant.

An more and more and more.

[Oldposts]

A good site for counterpoint technical details

" target="_top">http://www.infobahnos.com/~yvesg/cotp1a.htm">

Anand Mahadevan

[Oldposts]

Srikanth: That was and excellent way of explaining Counterpoint, by listening.....I never realised that 'Mandram Vandhu Thendral' from Mouna Ragam had this in it....I'll keep a look out in other songs. thanks for that

Anand: Thanks for that information on Counterpoint.

[Oldposts]

Anand: Thanks for the counterpoint pointer. Looks good. I have to get into it right away.

[Oldposts]

Geetha: Srikanth' sample piece was from Anjali and not Mouna Ragam.

[Oldposts]

This is another good site for western theory enlightnment.

http://dialspace.dial.pipex.com/town/place/aai26/ (http://dialspace.dial.pipex.com/town/place/aai26/
)

[Oldposts]

Anand: the second site you mentioned is too good and has good links. I have no words to thank you.

[Oldposts]

What to respond ??????

[Oldposts]

Respond something na!

[Oldposts]

Srikanth,
That was great and enlightening. I've read somewhere that in the history of western classical music, at some point, polyphonic music came into vogue. Polyphonic music is one where multiple instruments play different notes, but at the same time, producing a great synergy. Counterpoint seems to be closely linked to this. IR is a master at this. Most of his songs have counterpoints, many times created by more than 2 melodies played at the same time. The way IR uses his bass guitar is also a case in point. One example which springs to mind is the pallavi of the song "poomalaye tholseravaa".
This seems to be an interesting thread. Hope there are more contributions here.

[Oldposts]

I think the song "Paruva kalangalil kanavu" from Mudupani is another example. (Am I correct????)

[Oldposts]

Sridhar: Which song from 'Anjali' was it?

[Oldposts]

Geetha:Mottai Maadi Mottai Maadi (prelude)

[Oldposts]

Looks like counterpoint is something alien to Indian music(??). Who used it first in Indian music ? Not just tamil.

(I noticed IRs bass guitar only after I bought a good stereo system in the US :-(. I guess that guys music is chest of hidden treasures !!)

[Oldposts]

Counterpoint can be heard in Hindhi music as early as 1950s. Sure, it is alien to Indian music.

[Oldposts]

Kiruba,
Hard to tell who brought it first...I guess Salil Choudhry,Shanker-Jaikishan or S.D.Burman. You could hear counter-points in their songs released in the 50's

[Oldposts]

Kiruba:
From a sometime bass guitarist - NANRI ! IR's bass scores are sometimes more imaginative than the tune itself !

[Oldposts]

hi srikanth,

is counterpoint the same as "seconds", "thirds" et al?

just to elaborate, would you consider the phase in Jeans song "poovukkul oLindrukum" where unnikrishnan sings the firsts and the seconds and mixed together sounds good.

one other instance, is the song from the movie "aarilindu arubadu varai" spb-sj duet "kanmaniye kaadal enbadu karpanaiyo" where raja has used seconds in the charanams lavishly.

srikanth! i would like to hear from you further.

[Oldposts]

Thanks Sridhar for the Mottamadi song.

[Oldposts]

Srikanth..I have the same doubt as Badri Raghavan. Have you heard the counterpoint (I think so) in "Aarodum mannil endrum" from Pazhani. It is a folk song from the movie "Pazhani". TMS and PBS sing the Pallavi and Seergazhi hums in the background.

[Oldposts]

Srinath,
I am now tuned to the bass guitar in IRs songs. Its a pity he's got too much of gimmicks in his new songs (KM, Poonthottam). Hopefully, he will stick to his strengths and not swayed by ARRs influence.
(I still noticed some bass guitar in the new songs)

[Oldposts]

Hi,
Counter Point is more towards western classical music, It has be composed with proper harmony.
Where us the voice having counter point becomes a harmony or chorus.

Seconds is a kinda of harmony singing. for eg:
if the melody is C D E --- the harmony will be
E F G. These are called seconds (second note from the note), there are 5ths - Arr uses many 5ths.

Counter point is a score that is played over (under) a melody,
In raja kaiyavecha - the second bgm has a 3 part counter point.
1. Violins : plays the lead part,
2. Viola : plays a conter pointer (in half the timing of above)
3. Cello and double bass playes a chromatic scales progression which is twice the melody length.
ie :
if the Melody plays notes as halfs per bar
the 1st counter point plays in 8ths and 16ths per bar,the 2nd counter point - double bass plays 1 full note per bar.

(Also hear, MSV uses counter point in pachaiki muthucharam - an accordian pieces, that crosses over the melody often)

Konjom thala suthal than , try to go thru the webpages on counter point, I will try to post some real audio samples.


Srikanth

[Oldposts]

Srikanth's Real Audio Example:

The example you illustrated was from Motta Madi Motta Madi (Anjali). I think most of the songs in Anjali have brilliant counterpoint usage. Anjali Anjali especially.

Neels

[Oldposts]

So what is polyphony ? I read that it is another voice singing a different melody along with the main one. I think i have heard something like this in IRs music.

[Oldposts]

Srikanth:
What is the difference between COUNTERPOINT and INVERSE COUNTERPOINT?? IR, in one of his interviews said that "inverse counterpoint" is very difficult to compose- and he praises JS Bach for being able to compose them with ease.
Are there any examples of inverse counterpoints in TFM??

Can the first interlude piece from "Azhagu" song of Pudhiya Mugam be considered a counter-point?
The piece starts with an Aalapana. A violin is introduced over the aalapana creating a kind of dichotomy between the violin and the vocal.

Thanks in advance,
Srinivas

[Oldposts]

Innum konjam vilakki chollungappa, counterpoint-na ennanu. The link www.infobahnos.com/~yvesg/cotp1a.htm doesn't work.

[Oldposts]

I hv'nt got ne of d songs mensioned. It might b easy if u gave me an English tune that has 'counter points' & then I can try & work it out what it means.

[Oldposts]

COUNTERPOINT conceptually originated in the western classical music.
THERE is nothing big about counterpoint apart from the technical jargon associated with it. Precisely, if you were to make good music especially film based songs where you typically use several instruments to play different melodies or complimentary melodies you basically use counterpoint in one form or another. Does counterpoint add to the beauty of the music? YES! Will an average listener pay atention to it....not necessarily. So the bottom line it is highly an intellectual ornamentation of music.
For more on counterpoint chek out

http://www.bachfaq.org/ctpt.html


for more info chek out the book
COUNTERPOINT: FUndamentals of music making by Markand thakar at AMAZON.com

or for more questions and sample music pieces that explains POINT-COUNTERPOINT or any musical concept or RAAGA for that matter
shoot me an email at diva_gilmour@yahoo.com

[Oldposts]

forgot to mention

a good site for people who wish learn FUNDAMENTALS OF MUSIC
http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory33.htm

[Oldposts]

Counterpoint makes sense in relation to the music concerned. Rock/Pop has interesting using of vocal and instrumental counterpoint in the works of America (Sandman); Simon and Garfunkel and the inimatable Crsoby, Stills, Nash, and Young - four perfectly matched voices each of whom could lead or follow or solo with ease. In Indian music the melody is the thing - mettin azhuttam is most important. So does counterpoint really have a role? If MDs haven't used it - it is not for a lack of knowledge of the technique. As with everything else MSV's use of it is firmly within the melodic structure. IR's use of it was an expression of his strong desire to break free of the shckles imposed by melody and his earlier opinion of Indian classical music falling between the two stools of robust folk music and the formal Western music - Indian classical music lacked in his opinion (years ago he said this) the gut level feel of folk and the lofty aesthetic of Western music. Very true until you start listening to REALLY good musicians - not the attu mandai that sings at Tyagaraja aradhanai or the 75% that sings at Music Academy every December. For me Patrick Galway on the flute is insipid compared to Chaurasia or Pannalal Ghosh (father of the modern Indian classical flute). The best Western violonists can't help but sound like cats fighting! Sorry my opinion. I have been listening to Dhrupad (Dagar brothers) and Ragam, Thanam, Pallavi (a dying art) sets on the CD. It is incredible. Ramnad Krishnan must have been awesome on RTP. IR despite all the fabulous innovations he has given us can't help coming across as too smart or clever by half. To deliver something to an audience who is still only going to hum the main melodic line seems a bit too much! But IR can't be accused of the lack of trying. For close to 15 years he was virtually the only MD in Tamil and accounted for about 1/4 of the rest of the South. Even he must have found the uninterupted run a bit of a bore. Could IR have slowly opted out of the FM scene and used the time to conquer higher peaks? We can't say. The choices and circumstances were uniquely his. But the opportunities he had were his too. IR should have been composing big time international film music by now. We will never know why he almost consciously kept away from it. India's gain during those 15 years is the world's loss.

[Oldposts]

I like MSV's early 70's stylish numbers like 1. Pennulagil minnum sindum punnagaiyenna - Rickshawkaran
2. Love is fine darling - thavapudalvan
3. Indru vanda enda mayakkam , Aval yen sirithaal - from Kaase thaan kadavulada
4.Manamedai-from Gyaanaoli
5. Malar edu en kangal from AVEOManam.
6. Sorgam pakkathil, naan thananthani kaatu raaja - from enga maama
Any usage of cps in these songs???Have these been inspired by RDBurman's style during the same period?Iam just curious.
Late 70's MSV changed his style.

[Oldposts]

Pennathur, I am happy to see somebody who is looking at our music directors with a broader perspective, like I do (or want to). Re: IR - I dont think he would have been successful with more full-blown indian-western fusions. As you have rightly observed, tune/melody, is the focus of indian music. Most people are trained/used to appreciate only this and nuances in it. Chords, is something, not many people are aware of or appreciate it. These are alien to our culture, similarly, other special aspects of western classical, like counterpoint, will surely, go unnoticed with our audience (and I am pretty sure it does). Recently, IR has been making valiant efforts to bring full-fledged orchestration to melodies (like in enna solli paaduvathO in en mana vaanil). I am not sure how well these songs have been received in TN.
BTW, I feel a strong influence of Simon and Garfunkel in IRs music, I mean, classical rock, especially the usage of strings. Right now, IR has taken strings usage to a new level in songs (like the song mentioned previously).
So in a nutshell, I dont regret IR doing film songs all this time.
<a name="last"></a>

[Bipolar]

Wow, thanks to Admin (or whoever is responsible) for bringing back this old thread...

Yes I agree with many of the points mentioned above... counterpoint definitely adds to the beauty of music, but not everyone appreciates it... most listeners just enjoy the melody - they don't look deeper... but I do... as I've mentioned before in other threads, I'm no expert, just a dedicated fan... I don't know the technical terms to describe how music works, but I can definitely listen, observe and appreciate - on repeated listening, one can appreciate the subtleties more and more!

I too feel that Ilayaraja was influenced by Simon and Garfunkel... e.g. I felt that the song "ILaya nilaa..." from "PayaNangaL mudivadhilai" was a little similar to S&G's "Sound of Silence" (from the soundtrack to the film "The Graduate" - available here: http://www.grammy.ru/music/download.php?act=get&id=24063&lang=eng).

[ARUNPRAKASHKRISHNAN]

once IR's keyboard player viji manuel said[in a tv interview] that the harmany and counterpoints used by IR was completely diff from what was taught as counterpoint and harmony.what viji said was perfect.if you give a melody to any composer and ask him to fix chords etc for that melody 90 percent of them will do the same but IR [who is a thinking musician]will do it in a diff style.that is how raaja gave a new dimension to the songs of ''mella thiranthathu kathavu''where msv tunes got a new orchestration.hope you all know that in that film except ''dil dil dil manadhil''all the melodies were composed by msv.

[venus05]

[tscii:b7f9aa0fdb]RR,
Thanks for considering my request and reviving this thread from the archive.

In one of the threads (Song of the day), I think it was Narayanan who had mentioned that he wanted a layman explanation for Counterpoint.

This thread has some good (layman to theoretical) definitions of Counterpoint. Since I am a layman, let me try to give my observation on this. Please note that this not a review of the songs it is just an observation.

Experts can comment or correct on my explanation and the examples.

I understood better when this concept was referred as Countermelody. Though this concept is applied to two or more parts or tunes (parts refer to either instruments or human voices). Only when I started concentrating the songs with two human voices, I started getting clue about the concept (still I am maintaining the status quo “getting clue” not progressed much).

In Countermelody, there will be a main tune, which itself will be enough to enjoy the song. But the composer, comes up with another independent tune which jells very well with (it looks like there are several rules to follow, for laymen it is immaterial, musicologists refer this as ‘within the Harmonic context’) this main tune.

For a listener, it gives an impression that the two tunes are very well integrated (should I call interwoven?) and appears to be one tune. After listening to the countermelody along with the main melody for couple of times, when the listener sings or listens, the main melody, his/her mind automatically (rather subconsciously) fills the Countermelody to make it a whole.

Let me try to explain my observation with few examples.

1. Let me start with one excellent song from our King of Melodies legendry MSV

Movie Avanthan Manithan
Singers: TMS, PS.

Main Melody
Anbunadamadum kalai kudamae,
Asai mazhai magame
Kanil Vilayadum Ezhil vannamae
Kanni thamzh manramae

In the middle of the song, when singer sings the pallavi

Anbunadamadum kalai kudamae,

very subtly the composer introduces (rather exposes), the Countermelody in the form of “aaaa” humming. The whole pallavi is accompanied by this Countermelody. After listening to pallavi with Countermelody for couple of times, our mind automatically fills in with the Countermelody whenever we hear the main melody.

With Countermelody
Anbunadamadum kalai kudamae,
Aaaa aaa
Asai mazhai magame
aaa
Kanil Vilayadum Ezhil vannamae
Aaa aaa
Kanni thamzh manramae
Aaa aaa

2. This one is also from our MSV
Movie:
Singer : PS
Song Kaveri orum kavi sonna kadha

The second and third stanzas are accompanied by a chorus Countermelody which takes the pathos mood to a different level. This is an amazing song.

3. Next one is from our Maestro IR,
Movie : Sigappu Rojakkal
Singers : Kamal and S.Janki
Song : Ninaivo oru paravail

Pallavi is sung with only the main melody or main tune

Nanivo oru paravai
Virikum athan siragai
Parakkum athu kalakum thun urvai
When we listen to this for the very first time, we would not have imagined that there is an another tune which can be seamlessly integrated with this.
But down the line, when the pallavi is sung again, composer introduces the Countermelody as follows:

Nanivo oru paravai
Paa paa pa pa paa
Virikum athan siragai
Paa paa pa pa paa
Parakkum Paa…Paa…

athu kalakum Paa..Paa

thun urvai

After listening to this (with Countermelody) for several times, when we listen to the main melody without the counter melody, still our mind fills the Paa Paa Pa Pa Paa.

4. This one is from our Isai Puyal ARR
Movie :Thiruda…Thiruda

Singers: Shahul Hameed & Chorus

Song: Rasathi en usiru ennuthillae
Hoohumm
mmmmmm
Neepona
Hoohumm
mmmmmm

The whole song is full of very intricate Countermelodies (
in one of the TFM threads, one of TFM experts commented about this song as “Excellent fusion of Western Harmony and Indian Folk”)
At the end of the charanam, it sounds like the ladies chorus which was following the male voice so far takes the lead and melody by male singer plays the countermelody (for kadala kattukullae….). This one is just mind boggling.

Following is the list of Countermelodies used by IR. There may be innumerable by IR and other TFM composers. I used to listen to theses songs before I was aware of counterpoint concept and I used to enjoy these songs very well. Now after having a clue of the concept, my enjoyment level is different.

1. adi athadi – Kadalorak kavidhaigal
2. Poongathavae thazh thiravai – Nizhalgal
3. Ponnovium kandaenuma engaengum – Kazhgu
4. Poon thalir ada – Panner pushpangal
5. Keeravani manathilae – SPB voice in the prelude (I think it is from a Ramki movie)
6. Very Famous en kanmai un kathali – Chittukurvi even the lyrics will be in the form of counterpoint take every alternate words, that will make one meaningful sentence take the whole song that will be made of meaningful sentence as well.

7. Kanmaniyae kadhal enpathu – Aarilirunthu arupathu varai
8. Ithu mounamana nerum – salangai oli
9. illamai enum pongatru – In pallavi and saranam
10. Vanum kilzhae vanthalenna – thongathae thambi thongathae
11. Polla vinayaen from Thiruvasagam
12. Etho mogam Etho thagam
13. Vaan polae vannum konda vanthai gopalanae- salangai oli
14. Metti oli katrodu -Metti
15. Thakita thuthumi Thakita thathumi- salangai oli
16. Kodai kalak katre- Panner pushpangal
17. Thanthananum thana-Pudhiya varpugal
18. Kadhal oviyam –Alaigal oivathillai
19. Rakkamma kaithatu-Dhalapathi
20. Malagalae Nadhaswarangal-Kizhkkae pogum Railgal
21. Puthu Mappillaikku vantha neramada-Apoorva sagotharargal
22. vanum enna kizhirukku poomi enna mellirukku-thongathae thambi thungathe
23. Kadallukku nan seiyum thiru manjanam – from IR’s Ganthanjali album
24. Kavithai kezhungal karuvil prinathathu ragam-Punngai mannan


If any of the DFers are interested, we can take the songs in the above list (one by one and add new songs as well) and identify and explain the specific places where counterpoint is used. This helps all of us learn where the counterpoint is used in these songs. Song list is not limited to just IR songs. We can include other composers as well.

Countermelody between the human voices and instruments and between different instruments will be next level to explore. It needs closer observation and more expertise and that we will leave it to TFM DF experts to explain.

Thanks.
[/tscii:b7f9aa0fdb]

[app_engine]

venus05, romba nallA ezhudhi irukkeenga!

Can `iLaya nilA' pallavi be another simple example? (Baluvukku synthesiser counterpoint?)

[balaji]

Venus05 excellnet! Thanks as a layman I really appreciate your efforts in giving details on Counter Melody.

One small correction! 'Kaveri oram Kavi..' is from Adi Perukku and MD was AMRaja. It is one great song from yesteryears. The chorus would well jell with the original tune but still would stand apart. Great song!

Thanks for the write up once again
Bala

[S.Balaji]

Venus.....

Indeed an excellent post of yours :D

Madhana maaligai ( raja part ranga durai ) can be classified under the said group ??

Pon magal vandhaal ( Sorgam ) also ?

[rajasaranam]

[tscii:22400f10f7]Venus Nice writeUp :)

But I have some doubts over this
If a main melody accompanied by another melody can be called a counterpoint then there can be innumerable examples from TFM. Since the dawn of music its been happening->a main tune is accompanied by some other melody/melodies in the form of instruments. Substituting human voice instead of an instrument in a vocal song may not necessarily be a counterpoint or counter melody :?:

Googling i came to know that counterpoint is in which 2 or more melodies/tunes/notes/points are played along but they can be independent of each other i.e, when played alone they can be called entirely different songs instead when played together they form a complete harmonic texture/pattern...

http://www.classicalarchives.com/dict/counterpoint.html


counterpoint. The ability, unique to mus., to say two things at once comprehensibly. The term derives from the expression punctus contra punctum, i.e. ‘point against point’ or ‘note against note’. A single ‘part’ or ‘voice’ added to another is called ‘a counterpoint’ to that other, but the more common use of the word is that of the combination of simultaneous parts or vv., each of significance in itself and the whole resulting in a coherent texture. In this sense counterpoint is the same as polyphony.


Now listening to the examples you have given I dont think the humming in any of the songs find a meaning when played alone :cry: The paapapaa in NOP or aaaaa in Anbu nadamadum or hmmmm in Raasaathi cant exist without the song...Listen to Poomalaiyae-> the humming/singing in parts along the song is senseless without the song...

IMHO it should be more complex in nature like a mad mod mood fugue from HTNI and the other compositions are simple jugglery of this term.

Enlighten me If Iam wrong :oops: [/tscii:22400f10f7]

[S.Balaji]

Here is a link for counterpoint. Hope this throws some light on our discussions :


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterpoint

[venus05]

[tscii:0a55a54672]rajasaranam, S.Balaji, Balaji and App Engine

Thank you for your appreciation. Full credit goes to TFM DF .

There was a stage show in (in TV) which IR has explained this (counterpoint) by demonstrating the "Adi athadi oru manasonnnu" by singing two singers singing the notes separately and singing together.

Rajasaranam:

Thanks for opening up the discussion. To me HTNI and other compositions like TIO has larger scope for full scale counterpoints like mad mad mad… etc.,

Example

Polla vinayaen is a perfect example for the full scale composition. Towards end of this composition you can listen to more than three or four voices (this includes both human voices and instruments) singing together "Namasivaya Valzhga". I heard from Yahoo groups that there are more than 4 counterpoints going together in this segment. If you separate them (like hail…hail) as you had mentioned they are senseless without the song, still they are considered as counterpoint.

Take the segment in the same song where the lines “karantha pal kannalodu” is rendered, there is a base voice which repeats the same lines with subtle variation. To me even this one is a counterpoint.

From the beginning the song has English and Tamil lines seamlessly integrated as counterpoints.

But here in TFM within the established Pallavi, Charanam format (or should I say limitation) we cannot expect to have similar (or full scale western style) counterpoint compositions. Whenever there is a chance (like the songs in the list) our TFM composers show the glimpse of the counterpoint. If the counterpoint definition is “the song with completely interwoven with two or more melodies” then to me none of the TFM songs will qualify for counterpoint. Please note that all the abovementioned are IMHO.
Experts can comment on this.

Balaji:
Kaveri oram MD name is slip from side. I stand corrected. Such was the domination (in style and substance)of MSV during that period all the songs were considered as MSV’s.
Thanks.



[/tscii:0a55a54672]

[venus05]

S.Balaji,
Madhana maligail IMO has counterpoint in it but Ponmagal vanthal I am not sure. I did not hear that song in a while (at least after I came to know about the counterpoint).
Thanks.

[venus05]

[tscii:0e76c11c6a]RS,

From what I know "anbunadamadum","poomalaiya" and ""raasathi" fall under counterpoint category.
If you think the hummings cannot be counterpoint , Please refer to Guitar Prasanna's comment on Vikram song(#10)
http://www.raaja.com/Rv-prasanna%20favs.pdf

He comments as follows
"To me, this sounds really hip even today. Look for the three-voice counterpoint in S.
Janaki’s ‘humming’, the guitar/ keyboard chords behind Kamal’s ‘rap’."

As i do not have any direct encounter with Music theory, normally I try to learn from these type comments.
Per Prasann's comments the hummings still can be Counterpoint.

Let us try this,
We know the very famous song "Madram Vantha" from mouna raagam. In the charanam there is an excellent Sax follows as a consoling close friend, do you think it is counterpoint?

Imagine we replace the sax with a soothing humming (male or female). If you take the humming apart it may be meaningless but still it is an independent tune and hence to me it is counterpoint.

What we have in the original version (not our humming version) is a two voice counterpoint with one human voice and another one is sax.

In our modified version still it is two voice cointerpoint and both of them are human voices.

Please post your comments on this. Thanks.
[/tscii:0e76c11c6a]

[rajasaranam]

[tscii:983344e1d8]vasanth,

Sure that song was a good example. Iam learning and getting to interpret better
SJ's humming comes in three different tempos/paces. while the basic humming remains the same there are added layers of the same tune in which she is humming but slightly in different pace. here is the same link i gave earlier where its mentioned.
http://www.classicalarchives.com/dict/counterpoint.html


in strict counterpoint the processes are studied under 5 heads, the result of an analysis which dissects the practice of the art into 5 species. Following the practice of early composers a cantus firmus (fixed song) is employed, i.e. a short melody, set by the master, against which another melody is to be written by the student— or, it may be, several such melodies. It is usually set out with one note to a measure (bar).

The species are as follows: I. The added v. proceeds at the same pace as the cantus firmus, i.e. with one note to a measure. II. The added v. proceeds at twice (or 3 times) the pace of the cantus firmus, i.e. with 2 or 3 notes to a measure. III. The added v. proceeds at 4 (or 6) times the pace of the cantus firmus, i.e. with 4 notes to a measure. IV. The added v. proceeds (as in Species II) at the rate of 2 notes to 1, i.e. 2 to a measure; but the second note is tied over to the first note of the following measure, i.e. syncopation is introduced. V. (Sometimes called florid counterpoint.) The added v. employs a mixture of the processes of the other 4 species and also introduces shorter notes (quavers).

Another good example for this kind of two or three voice counterpoints can be 'Raaja Raajathi Raajan intha' and 'Pottu vaitha kaathaal thittam' :)

The case example of 'mandram vantha' is a good one and I think its just an accompaniment to the main tune which adds beauty to the song but not a counterpoint :huh: <Iam still skeptical about this and should listen to the song again to comment. Iam writing this as the song is being hummed in my mind :) >
If that is true then every tabla or rhythm accompaniment can be replaced with a human voice like jingujja jingujja, jajak jajak,, la laa laa etc., and can be called as counterpoints is it not ?[/tscii:983344e1d8]

[MusicIsLife]

RS,
I think accompaniments go as a "Thaal" rather than a different melody!!, so a replacement would not go to be termed per-se to counterpoint.

[venus05]

[tscii:73841e8d2b]RS,

Thanks for the response. I appreciate your patience.

1. From your earlier posting, what I interpret is that the same tune played in different pace along with the main melody is called counterpoint. I think that is only one kind of CP.

For that matter, in "Kaanaae kalaimane" there is a violin sincerely follows every note of the Pallavi and Charanam (sometime I feel that the song was recorded with violin during the track recording (by VSN?) and was filled in later by KJY). To be it is not a CP. I look at it more like the violin that follows the singer note by note in our Carnatic katcheris.

There is another variety of Counterpoint where exactly at the every eighth note the same melody will start and played and later it is elaborated later. I think it is called Canon or imitative polyphony. I am not sure.
(In Tamil, “Kandane engum poomazhi katrinilae” IR just tried (not exactly at the eighth note though) for the first line as an echo)
(ARR tried in “Chaaiya Chaaiyare” in Sathiya, not exactly at the eighth note)

2. Counterpoint by definition note-to-note. I do not know the percussion is considered as note-to-note.

3. Another example I can think of is "Raakkamma Kaiya thattu". Initially Pallavi is filled with brisk (should I say majestic) violins in a call and response fashion. If you are listening for the first time you cannot even imagine that this same melody will be accompanied by another melody in female voice.

At the end of the second Charanam another independent melody (lady voice) is introduced from nowhere and at the end of the song the Pallavi and this humming were nicely interwoven to make a single melody. To me this humming is not like other instrument accompaniment.

From my understanding, in the initial Pallavi the violins are accompaniments (call/response) for the main melody and at the end, the same Pallavi is sung with Countermelody.
Thanks.


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[kingvj]

Whatever happened to this very good thread..!!!