a new history?!

[crazy]

Hi everyone,
i recently read a book called "The age of kali". In that book the author had referred in a page as ".....................in bangalore like every where else in south india, women went topless until the Britons in 19th century encouraged them to cover themself up".

I was shocked. I have never heard that before!
Is that true or is this is just a made up (hi)story????????

[bingleguy]

is it the book The Age of Kali by William Dalrymple ?

[crazy]

is it the book The Age of Kali by William Dalrymple ?

exactly! have u read?

[Eelavar]

It should be intox..

We learn to Britishes to take daily shower, so i don't think they teached Indians to wear !! :roll:

[Sandeep]

I dont know about Bangalore, but in many communities in Kerala Men/Women where topless (shirtless).

[dsath]

Two generations back in South TamilNadu women did not wear blouse, only sari.
The British sure did bring with them their style of dressing from neck to toes for women. As Men adapted to the British style of wearing clothes (shirts and trousers), women also followed suit by wearing blouses.
The paintings and sculptures in our temples speak for themselves.

[bingleguy]

Top less here may not be meaning wearing nothn on the top ...

I guess dsath's words make sense !

[crazy]

whatever he should have written a bit precis!

another one: he was asking a woman in GOA about how goa got independence? and how she felt when Goa came under india? that woman was talking as if she is from portugual and portuguese took better care of goa and the people and blah blah blah.........................i can never understand such people?
do anyone of u understand her?

[Lambretta]

whatever he should have written a bit precis!

another one: he was asking a woman in GOA about how goa got independence? and how she felt when Goa came under india? that woman was talking as if she is from portugual and portuguese took better care of goa and the people and blah blah blah.........................i can never understand such people?
do anyone of u understand her?
Hmm....nope, I jus dont! :? :roll: :huh:

[crazy]

lamby
she was so proud of her portuguese culture :roll: , what was she thinking? she was talking as if goa was located on portugual, and india took over it and etc etc. what nonsense! it was portuguese who took over Goa from india, i never heard that people in goa was one of a kind.....................aint thay indians too!
i cant just understand these people who r feeling proud of someones culture(special someone who came all the way cross the world)......................just coz u converted into another religion does it make u a foreigner??????????????????can it change ur identity??????????

when i read those pages, i got so mad that i wanted to slap that woman! but i cant and thats not fair either!

[Sandeep]

crazy,

The author would have interviewed hundreds of people and would have selectively included those that suits his agenda. not something we dont see in media.


do anyone of u understand her?

Well did you understand when our dear PM gave a speach in Oxford and said that "British rule in India was Good governence" and that India's independence stuggle was for "Self governance" rather than rejection of "British claim to good governance".

Didn't the lady also say the samething.

[dsath]

[tscii:22ff2163af]

i cant just understand these people who r feeling proud of someones culture(special someone who came all the way cross the world)......................just coz u converted into another religion does it make u a foreigner??????????????????can it change ur identity??????????

Lets not get carried away here. Portugal ruled Goa for more than 400 yrs and they integrated well with the locals and so did their culture. If we are proud of Taj Mahal (it was built by a great grandson of an Afghanistan native) in an alien style (at that point of time in history) why not be proud of Portuguese culture, which is a part of the present Goanese culture.

Many of us sadly want to interpret our past culture and history what we want them to be. I think we should accept it as it was. If our ancestors did not wear blouse.....so be it. Why loose sleep over it. They should have done it for a reason. Just because today’s morals and styles are different doesn't mean that their style was wrong or anything.

One of the reasons why our culture and civilization hasn’t died is because we are a open culture and incorporate changes as and when they occur. Trying to close ourselves will have a negative impact.
[/tscii:22ff2163af]

[Badri]

Beautifully said, dsath!


i cant just understand these people who r feeling proud of someones culture

Crazy, you have to understand the context and the background of this woman. She could well be of a Portugese descent, traching her ancestry back to the settlers. In which case, that is her own culture, not someone elses and she has every right to be proud of it!

[Eelavar]

If we are proud of Taj Mahal (it was built by a great grandson of an Afghanistan native) in an alien style (at that point of time in history

Hum Hum... :roll:

Is it really an alien style ? Mughol style born in India in the contact of Arabs and Indian architecture...
After this style expanded in whole Arabia...

[crazy]

If we are proud of Taj Mahal (it was built by a great grandson of an Afghanistan native) in an alien style (at that point of time in history) why not be proud of Portuguese culture, which is a part of the present Goanese culture.

i thought shah jahan was born to a rajput woman, just like the previuos mughal kings! :roll:
but anyway just coz someone ruled us for some centuries, does it mean that we got to converted or get immensed into their culture and history! i cant just imagine india as a mughal country cos they ruled it for a while or as brithish country just coz they ruled it for 3-400 years!
r we suppossed to change our identity and get pruod of our once "ruler"?

[dsath]

r we supposed to change our identity and get proud of our once "ruler"?
No crazy, its not changing, its integrating. Take the tamil catholic Christians for example. They get married the Christian way but still wear a chain similar to Thali worn by their Hindu counterparts. The pendant has a leaf and mother Mary(i think) on it instead of the traditional Hindu Gods. Now thats called integration.

On the lighter side, what do you think of Briyani. Its a recipe brought by invaders. Haven't we adapted it to our palate. I have read somewhere that even idli is not a native - native of Tamilnadu. We have adopted and adapted to outside influence rather than build a wall. Just imagine what we would have missed hadn't we welcomed the outside influence. Our very OWN precious idlis!!!!! :) Outside Tamilnadu anywhere in India 'Madrasi' is identified with idli and shambar.
The same yardstick can be applied for our culture also.

[crazy]

yeah u r right! anyway i found the book so irritating, i read it only coz it was about india!

[Lambretta]

i thought shah jahan was born to a rajput woman, just like the previuos mughal kings! :roll:
Um...no, tat was Jehangir, SJ's father & Akbar's son.....born to Akbar's Rajput wife Jodhabai.....afa I know, he was the only mughal born to a rajput/hindu woman....

[Lambretta]

[tscii:9905a902b3]
If our ancestors did not wear blouse.....so be it. Why loose sleep over it. They should have done it for a reason. Just because today’s morals and styles are different doesn't mean that their style was wrong or anything.
Actually the reason was tat in Hinduism originally stitched or tailored cloth (in this case blouses) wer not allowed as they wer considered "impure"...esp. in temple premises....even men wore unstitched cloth back then.....
But all the same, we cudnt see ne reason for the same 'trend' to be re-introduced for the same reason in today's society! (of course its a diff. issue tat today's fashion trendmakers r keen on the same atleast in case of women, albeit for a different reason!).....

One of the reasons why our culture and civilization hasn’t died is because we are a open culture and incorporate changes as and when they occur. Trying to close ourselves will have a negative impact.
Wat u say is true no doubt.....but unftly the present gen. (I dont mean youth only) seems to be taking undue advantage of the fact tat we r an open culture by opening up to even changes tat r unwarranted for! This'd hav to be realised by them for the situation to improve......! [/tscii:9905a902b3]

[FloraiPuyal]

I have read somewhere that even idli is not a native - native of Tamilnadu.

Were tamils eating grass before someone taught them to cook?
:oops: :evil: :shock:





யாகாவா ராயினு னாகாக்க

[happyindian]

Apparently "steaming" as a cooking process was not used in ancient India, it came from China in the v.early AD times.

Idli & Dosai were first made / "invented" in Udupi / the south kanara region by either the konkan or kannada ppl ( read abt this somewhere in Kamat's potpouri or somewhere i think). Wikipedia on Idli: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idli

MTR first introduced Rava Dosa and Rava Idli to the Indian Masses after experimenting with wheat during WWII after rice bcame short of supply. Perhaps MTR shd have patented its invention ;-)

Any ideas where / how was Sambar, Payasam, etc, all those foods v take 4 granted, first made?

[bis_mala]

An Indian who visited Indonesia/Malaysia region saw them making a kueh (or "cake") which looks like "idli".
The kueh is called "puttu piring" . Made of rice flour, coconut flakes and gula melaka (the equivalent of vellam or karuppatti).
With no further evidence, he jumped to the conclusion that idli came from Indon!!
An Indian is someone who believes everything came from outside.

PS. The Chinese have more varieties of steamed cakes. One of them is very close to idli, except that it is made of pure rice flour and eaten with cooked bamboo shoots and chilli sambal. Name: chwee kueh. (means water-cake)

[crazy]

Wat u say is true no doubt.....but unftly the present gen. (I dont mean youth only) seems to be taking undue advantage of the fact tat we r an open culture by opening up to even changes tat r unwarranted for! This'd hav to be realised by them for the situation to improve......! [/tscii]

hm thats so true! not only this gen, but also parents encourage them, so shame! we r so adddicted to the foreigners!

apropos idli................i thought it was a tamil food! :cry:

[dsath]

Pl. see whether this is the type of information that you are interested; i read only the first one some time ago:
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/seta/2002/09/26/stories/2002092600010200.htm
http://www.hinduonnet.com/seta/2004/10/21/stories/2004102100111600.htm
http://www.hindu.com/seta/2004/11/04/stories/2004110400061500.htm
http://www.kamat.com/database/articles/vnagar_foods.htm
Of a different flavour:
http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:qVFCrFmYZUcJ:www.knaw.nl/publicaties/pdf/20021013.pdf+food+habits+of+ancient+Indians&hl=en&gl=au&ct=clnk&cd=60&ie=UTF-8

These are some sites about our ancients food habits. It makes interesting reading. I am as much disappointed as you folks to know that idli is not a native of Tamilnadu.

[srivatsan]

I have read somewhere that even idli is not a native - native of Tamilnadu.

Were tamils eating grass before someone taught them to cook?
:oops: :evil: :shock:



யாகாவா ராயினு னாகாக்க

Yes yes yes....Idli, Vadai (:P ) and Dosai are birth right or even discovery of Tamilizans...No compromice, whatsoever it may be....Idly is ours.....even idiappam.....no giving patent to others....

[podalangai]

I have read somewhere that even idli is not a native - native of Tamilnadu.
Were tamils eating grass before someone taught them to cook?
:oops: :evil: :shock:

Not just then, pa, we are still eating grass! Biologically, rice is a grass.

[devapriya]

Friends,

We need to understand that Tamilnadu has 10 months of Summer and two months of winter/rain.
Hence males prefer a Dhoti or lungi alone. But female have to wear Sarries or Nighty now. In Kerala women stand just with Blowses even today, as being day to day it is not sexy.

The Upper Caste Non-Brahmins and Priest when coming the Dalits must takeout thier Thuppatta and or Pudavai top. Though horible, they were not Topless.

Portughese Broke morethan 4000 Temples, which ae properly recorded. Killed Many in the name of Inquisition.

Today western World wear more poor way of dressing.

the dressing of US secretary lady was a great joke in Arabs.

Devapriya

[Eelavar]

Portughese Broke morethan 4000 Temples, which ae properly recorded.

And do you know how much by the Arabs ?

[bis_mala]

We need to understand that Tamilnadu has 10 months of Summer

Not only that: we must also understand that PaaNini was a Tamil lady who wrote grammar for "vadamozi"!! She used much materials from the South. This fact is well preserved through the legend that Siva, the southern( dravida ) deity transmitted all the knowledge to her from Himself.

[happyindian]

gaddeswarup wrote:
Pl. see whether this is the type of information that you are interested; i read only the first one some time ago:
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/seta/2002/09/26/stories/2002092600010200.htm
http://www.hinduonnet.com/seta/2004/10/21/stories/2004102100111600.htm
http://www.hindu.com/seta/2004/11/04/stories/2004110400061500.htm
http://www.kamat.com/database/articles/vnagar_foods.htm
Of a different flavour:
http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:qVFCrFmYZUcJ:www.knaw.nl/publicaties/pdf/20021013.pdf+food+habits+of+ancient+Indians&hl=en&gl=au&ct=clnk&cd=60&ie=UTF-8

V.interesting and informative links. Thanks Dsath for putting it up here.

Was surprised that Sita fav food was Venison rice. No wonder she asked Rama to get the Marichi-in-disguise Deer. Perhaps not as a pet but as yummy food.

[FloraiPuyal]

I have read somewhere that even idli is not a native - native of Tamilnadu.
Were tamils eating grass before someone taught them to cook?
:oops: :evil: :shock:

Not just then, pa, we are still eating grass! Biologically, rice is a grass.

kandupudichitaruya periya podalanga! :twisted: ( just kidding. anyway, logically rice is a grass before it is cooked. once cooked it becomes food. )

good thing that no one said rice was introduced into tamil nadu by portuguese in 1590 and since tamil words could not start with ri, they added a and made it arici. :lol: