KARMA-The free will Vs VIDHI-The fate

[SRS]

Thirty American students committed collective suicide by making a free choice of getting shot by a fellow student.

But these were English-speaking, affluent individuals, who were in no way subject to the "dissonance-riddled fallacies" of Vedanta. :lol: :lol: They were simply going about their daily buisness of enjoying the endless materialism when one of their fellow materialist mates went on a rampage. Is it just me or do I get the sense that this is firm proof that pure materialism does not equate to happiness. Or even the meaning of life itself. In essence a total rejection of the atheist view of a purely mechanistic Universe.

[SRS]

Do you believe in [b]immortality? "No. And one life is enough for me."

If one life is enough for him, then he is rejecting Buddhism as well.

Enjoy the paradox! But don't expect to find any answers in atheism. :lol:

[Rohit]

[tscii:747f07c835]
But these were English-speaking, affluent individuals, who were in no way subject to the "dissonance-riddled fallacies" of Vedanta. :lol: :lol:
I am glad that the TCBs have clearly admitted that their beliefs are indeed the dissonance-ridden fallacies of Vedanta. Very good indeed! Now, that says everything. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Of course, the complete rejection of the TCBs’ baseless belief by more than 95% of the world’s population in itself is a conclusive proof of such dissonance-ridden fallacies. :lol:

:D :) :thumbsup: [/tscii:747f07c835]

[SRS]

[tscii:b146de4641]
But these were English-speaking, affluent individuals, who were in no way subject to the "dissonance-riddled fallacies" of Vedanta. :lol: :lol:
I am glad that the TCBs have clearly admitted that their beliefs are indeed the dissonance-ridden fallacies of Vedanta. Very good indeed! Now, that says everything. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Of course, the complete rejection of the TCBs’ baseless belief by more than 95% of the world’s population in itself is a conclusive proof of such dissonance-ridden fallacies. :lol:

:D :) :thumbsup: [/tscii:b146de4641]

The only difficulty left to overcome is that the TCB's are now among the highest income earners in UK, Canada, and USA. Despite the financial status, the TCB's use their influence to build Hindu temples, thus perpetuating the TCB belief system ad infinitum. :lol: :lol: Far better that the governments of these countries limit emigration to coolies such as Rohit; a coolie atheist is not as good as a coolie Christian, but at least the coolie will only do menial jobs and not use massive funds to build structures of a peculiar nature. :lol:

[SRS]

--

[Rohit]

Do you believe in [b]immortality? "No. And one life is enough for me."

If one life is enough for him, then he is rejecting Buddhism as well.
No, he is not.

In Buddhism, there is no next life of the same person.

Whoever is born, is not the same person ever again; but a new one.

Parents cannot become their own sons and daughters.

It is as simple as that.

Enjoy the paradox!

But don't expect to find any clues in your horoscopes.

:D :) :thumbsup:

[Rohit]

:x TCB[/b]]Gobbledygook..Gobbledygook..Gobbledygook.......... ....
If wishes were horses, the beggars would ride.

And one is riding now with plenty of gobbledygooks.

:D :) :thumbsup:

[SRS]

Do you believe in [b]immortality? "No. And one life is enough for me."

If one life is enough for him, then he is rejecting Buddhism as well.
No, he is not.

In Buddhism, there is no next life of the same person.

Whoever is born, is not the same person ever again; but a new one.

Parents cannot become their own sons and daughters.

It is as simple as that.

Enjoy the paradox!

But don't expect to find any clues in your horoscopes.



I don't think its as simple as that. :lol: Even though, in the next life, the physical appearance of the person may take on a new form, the karma acquired from all previous births remain. If this were not the case, then enlightenment would be rendered meaningless.

Enjoy the paradox!

But don't expect to find any answers in atheism. :lol:

:D :) :thumbsup:

[SRS]

:x TCB[/b]]Gobbledygook..Gobbledygook..Gobbledygook.
If wishes were horses, the beggars would ride.

And one is riding now with plenty of gobbledygooks.

:D :) :thumbsup:

Nevertheless, it remains a fact that the school shooter was from a Buddhist country of origin, and living in the world's only remaining superpower.

Thus shattering to dust all atheist fantasies of a Buddhist, materialist, English-speaking world as the ideal one for the future of the world's inhabitants.

:D :) :thumbsup:

[Rohit]

TCB[/b]]Even though, in the next life, the physical appearance of the person may take on a new form
Of course, that how the TCBs would like to believe through the theory of transmigration of a soul, which is categorically rejected by Buddhism.

Enjoy the paradox! And keep incrementing your CD counts.

But don't expect to find any clues in your horoscopes. :lol:

:D :) :thumbsup:

[SRS]

--

[SRS]

[tscii:d521e019fa]Specifically, within the Buddhist tradition, we have the testimony of the Buddha on the matter of rebirth. On the night of His enlightenment, the Buddha acquired three varieties of knowledge and the first of these was the detailed knowledge of His past lives. He was able to recollect the conditions in which He had been born in His past lives. He was able to remember what His names had been, what His occupations had been and so on.

Besides the Buddha’s testimony, His prominent disciples were also able to recollect their past lives. Ananda, for instance, acquired the ability to recollect his past life soon after his ordination. Similarly, throughout the history of Buddhism, saints, scholars and meditators have been able to recollect their past lives.

http://www.buddhanet.net/funbud10.htm


Yet another earth-shattering blow to the atheist distortioners. If there is no connection between this existence and the next, how does one remember his names from past births, as well as his occupations?[/tscii:d521e019fa]

[Rohit]

All those distorted views are thoroughly refuted earlier here in this thread and elsewhere long time ago.

Now GO to START and keep incrementing your CD count, which currently stands at CD = N= 905, only 95 to go. Please keep going to [START] and enjoy your ride in the VSCD.

:D :) :thumbsup:

[thamiz]

But don't expect to find any clues in your horoscopes. :lol:

I am sure, it is burried there somewhere in a language which is yet be understood or "synthesized". :lol:

It is just humans' inabilty. So is SRS's! :lol:

[SRS]

All those distorted views are thoroughly refuted earlier here in this thread and elsewhere long time ago.


Yet another admission of defeat!

[Rohit]

But don't expect to find any clues in your horoscopes. :lol:

I am sure, it is burried there somewhere in a language which is yet be understood or "synthesized". :lol:

It is just humans' inabilty. So is SRS's! :lol:
:lol: :lol: :lol:

How true!

When poor SRS and his likes are permanently stuck in the VSCD, they have no time whatsoever for understanding anything; it simply is impossible for them to grasp anything. :lol: :lol: :lol: :thumbsup:

[Rohit]

Let me bring back the Free Choice stuff back in line for the TCBs to carry on with their wish rides.

Carefully read and try to grasp the following, how dogmatism mercilessly triggers a relentless flow of self-contradictory and self-defeating statements and also the dissonance-ridden fallacies; and makes the heedless believers completely receptive of every trash that can be flushed into their insensate heads by a few charlatans :!: :?:


The practices of sati (in which the woman willingly sacrifices herself to the fire) and arranged marriages are far, far worse! :lol:

Elsewhere in the hub, "Rohit" has put the sole blame for foreign invasions of India on the native Indians themselves.

Dear Sk, look at our friends, there are ridiculing human beings as mere machines succumb to the fate of environment, here we are saying it is our choices that make it.

Core of sanatana dharma is freedom from all limitations (Ego) and its core is the freedom of choices it allows for individual.

Where else can you breath this freedom of air on Earth?
Which directly implies that, 16th April 2007: Thirty American students committed collective suicide by making a free choice of getting shot by a fellow student.

He and his wife were at a dinner party in Berlin when a guest expressed a belief in astrology. Einstein ridiculed the notion as pure superstition.

Another guest stepped in and similarly disparaged religion. Belief in God, he insisted, was likewise a superstition.

"I am a determinist. I do not believe in free will.

His belief in causal determinism was incompatible with the concept of human free will.

Einstein, on the other hand, believed that a person's actions were just as determined as that of a billiard ball, planet or star. "Human beings in their thinking, feeling and acting are not free but are as causally bound as the stars in their motions.

This determinism appalled some friends such as Max Born, who thought it completely undermined the foundations of human morality. "I cannot understand how you can combine an entirely mechanistic universe with the freedom of the ethical individual," he wrote Einstein. "To me a deterministic world is quite abhorrent.

For Born, quantum uncertainty provided an escape from this dilemma.

Is this Spinoza's God? "I am fascinated by Spinoza's pantheism

I don't think I can call myself a pantheist.

Do you believe in immortality? "No. And one life is enough for me."

Scientists aim to uncover the immutable laws that govern reality, and in doing so they must reject the notion that divine will

"The main source of the present-day conflicts between the spheres of religion and of science lies in this concept of a God..."

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1607298-2,00.html
Enjoy the paradox :lol: :lol: :lol:

But don't expect to find any clues in your horoscopes.

:D :) :thumbsup:

[SRS]

I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings. (Albert Einstein)

http://www.spaceandmotion.com/albert-einstein-god-religion-theology.htm

[goodsense]

Nevertheless, it remains a fact that the school shooter was from a Buddhist country of origin, and living in the world's only remaining superpower.

Even prior to him temporarily revealing his location, I was able to tell it (his location) by the way he writes (which he seems to be very proud of). An indication that he spent a very long time in Britain/Uk. I mean some 20 or more years in the English education system at least. His frequent usage of phrases like "I am afraid" etc., gave him away. There is no turning back now.

In light of other recent developments, I am begining to wonder about many things including the name he uses. If he became a member on hub (old) after late 2002, it would be a great hint to me and everything I saw since 2003/2004, would all come together.

[selvakumar]

Rohit,

Just one question:

May I know your views on the subject of this thread ? :)

I am able to see your sarcastic replies to others only in this thread. Could you please highlight your posts made here on the subject so that I can have a look at your views on the subject ? :roll:

[thamiz]

Ans selvakumar, what do you find in this post (quoted) RELEVANCE to the TOPIC :?:

Why are you discriminating :?:



Do you believe in [b]immortality? "No. And one life is enough for me."

If one life is enough for him, then he is rejecting Buddhism as well.

Enjoy the paradox! But don't expect to find any answers in atheism. :lol:

[selvakumar]

Ans selvakumar, what do you find in this post (quoted) RELEVANCE to the TOPIC :?:

Why are you discriminating :?:



Fine !
Dear SRS, Rohit and thamiz of this section,
May I know thje views of yours on the subject ? :)
I mean "Karma vs Vidhi"

BTW, thamiz, Thanks for attending MY CALL TO ROHIT when he wasn't here ! :)

[thamiz]

selva: Rohit and SRS have been arguing for years. They cant avoid digressing. But I believe they understand each other and cant survive without each other either! :lol:

Just watch the fun and bring up your question related to the title, I am sure you will be answered with "some answer" :)

[selvakumar]

selva: Rohit and SRS have been arguing for years. They cant avoid digressing. But I beleive they understand each other and cant survive without each other either! :lol:

:lol:
Aahaa !! :lol: Thanks for the info !!

btw, I saw more replies from ROHIT ! That is why I asked him :oops:

But when I read his reply to CRAZY I was a bit disturbed ! (in the first few pages) !

That is why ! :)

Anyway,
Again I want to know his perspective on the topic ! :D

[selvakumar]

BTW,

Dear Hubbers,

Can anyone provide me links to articles that gives info on these two things ? :roll:

I was able to get different perceptions on Karma Theory.

But for FATE, I couldn't find anything :roll:

[thamiz]

Selva: Join the club and have fun! :lol:

[goodsense]

[tscii:1ada0874fa]Where has the school shooter disappeared to? Changing internet provider or what so he can’t be investigated and traced only to find out he is nothing Indian as he made us to believe.

Wanted to say along time this guy has the mentality and tactics of the British, despite his numerous efforts to camouflage (which some people fell for blindly when it is convenient to claim all people are equal, which group he was preying on and what he will achieve, but can't practice what is preached, not in the past nor in the future) in making statements to lead people to believe his background is Indian. Even the Indian born, bread and educated in Britain, don’t turn out to be so British/English in style.

Coincidentally, I made reference to that name “Rohit” back in 1996 (video recorded when discussing how Britain exploited India) when other information related to his counter objective as to how to blame Indians for the status of Indians and India. He blamed Hinduism, the culture and more recently, claim that Indians are not intelligent; that it takes Intelligence and an atheist thinking to be successful and progressive.

This case definitely warrants a review and investigation and I hope the moderators are doing that while keeping their ears and eyes out too.

As SRS said, he is living in the world’s only superpower. That superpower is disintegrating and the future is, those enjoying creams of this superstructure, would not only remain the minority, but the minority in most need. As such, it will be necessary to claim that all people are equal quoting Buddhist principles. There is no good karma in what is almost an English/Athiest Britain. When they came out to preach the word of GOD, it was all about self - the benfit of good karma of others and that is all they have to show, even up to today. This is why they will definitely need to rely on the Grace and Faith of others and not their own Karma in times to come. They have already reaped the benefits of the good Karma of India/Indians. :wink: It will be a long time before the next crop, if it is possible at all.

This pro-British/English/west, securing a future, thinks he has been successful on this hub with the least suspicion. Well I can tell you, your long lease has only left us all the traces and clues. I wouldn't be surprised if you were paid to be here doing this kind of job on hub, although in your timely manner, you made us feel as if you are so busy with other kinds of work.

You are not just a "beggar", but a propelling one. [/tscii:1ada0874fa]

[Rohit]

[tscii:125f462656]
Rohit,

Just one question:

May I know your views on the subject of this thread ? :)

I am able to see your sarcastic replies to others only in this thread. Could you please highlight your posts made here on the subject so that I can have a look at your views on the subject ? :roll:
Karma means action, deed, performed by individuals over a short period of time or over a long period of time.

In Hinduism, karma is meant as accumulated actions or deeds of an individual committed over several lives, including one’s present life.

In Buddhism, karma is meant as the actions or deeds of an individual, committed over present life; as well as the accumulation of collective actions of the past generations or ancestors, but not by the same person, as Buddhism categorically rejects the existence of an atman or a soul and asserts that each individual is different from their ancestors and no one is ever born again as the same person.

Vidhi means process or law. Vidhi can also be interpreted and understood as procedure.

In Hinduism, Vidhi is taken in the latter sense, i.e. procedure, which is then translated into rituals, which is nothing but karma. Therefore, when understood in this context, both karma & vidhi mean the same thing, Karma.

In Buddhism, Vidhi is taken in the former sense, i.e. the process or law, which is then translated into the process or law of cause and effect (or actions and reactions) and thus rejects rituals. Therefore, Buddhism makes clear distinction between karma (conscious actions or deeds) and vidhi (the law of cause and effect or the process of actions and reactions).

Thus, the concepts of Karma and Vidhi have entirely different meanings when looked at from different perspectives and interpreted in different contexts.

The posts (the first one of which I posted several times) quoted below explained exactly what I have explained above. Also refer to my other previous posts for further clarifications, if necessary.


The traditional philosophical schools in India had have been classified under two, mutually exclusive headings, which are (1) Astika (Which literally means: Theist) and (2) Nastika (Which literally means: Atheist)

The Nastika (Atheist) schools are those which explicitly reject the authority of the Vedas; and they are:

1. Lokayata or Carvaka (Materialists)
2. Bauddha (Including a Number of Schools of Buddhism)
3. Jaina or Syadvada (Jainism, Including Digambara And Svetambara Groups)

The Astika (Theist) schools are those which accept the authority of the Vedas; and they are:

1. Nyaya
2. Vaiseshika
3. Yoga
4. Samkhya
5. Purva Mimamsa
6. Uttara Mimamsa (Vedanta)

Reference Source:

http://www.advaita-vedanta.org/avhp/ind-phil.html


The prominence to karma is due to Buddhism. Buddhist lay a great emphasis on past deeds. Adi Shankara brought this into hinduism.
Though, it is the Jainas who first harmonise the law of Karma with the process of redemption; nonetheless, the above statement is a creditable confirmation of one of the many facts regarding Buddhism.

The law of karma as conceived by the Buddhists, differs greatly from the law of karma conceived by the Jainas. The law of karma in Buddhism is more reflective of the universal law of cause and effect, applicable to every tangible and intangible thing that exists. While the law of karma in Jainism is operative at the metaphysical level of souls/atmas, the very existence of which Buddhism categorically rejects.

The law of karma, or more precisely the law of cause and effect, is absolutely inescapable by anything that exists; and either way, it is utterly incompatible with the Advaitic Monism. Therefore, one can clearly see the sheerness of imbecility committed by the Advaitins.

However, many elements of the Jaina's law of karma can be made compatible with the Dvaitic doctrines.

:D :) :thumbsup:

The theory of karma adopted in Hinduism is more akin to that developed by Jainism and it is operative only at the metaphysical level of souls/atmas. Also, it will be quite incorrect to treat it quite as the law of cause and effect, for the law of cause and effect, as understood scientifically, is not compatible with the theory of karma of souls/atman as it is currently being discussed here. :)

This is what I posted some posts ago.


The theory of karma was hypothesised and subsequently developed by Ascetics and Sramanas of ancient India and subsequently used by them as a framework to explain the nature and various puzzling aspects of human conditions.

- The Jainas were the pioneers of harmonising the law of karma with the process of redemption.

- The law of karma as conceived and developed by Buddhists greatly differs from the law of karma conceived and developed by the Jainas.

- The law of karma in Buddhism is more reflective of the universal law of cause and effect, applicable to every tangible and intangible thing that exists.

- The law of karma in Jainism is operative at the metaphysical level of souls/atmas, the very existence of which Buddhism had categorically rejected.

- The law of karma is absolutely incompatible with the Advaita Vedanta doctrine.

- The law of karma was adopted in Hinduism and made compatible with the Pseudo-Dvaitic and Dvaitic doctrines.
:D :) :thumbsup:


That's circular argument and doesn't prove anything.
Exactly!

There are countless streams of dependent, independent, interdependent events occuring in nature and around us. Such events occur in series, in parallel or both. Such events occur randomly, pseudo-randomly or systematically or in a combination of the three. Such events can be caused either by conscious entities or by unconscious entities or a combination of both. Finally, such events can occur under the influence of any combination of these factors; and therefore, can be attributed to these factors. Based on the number of factors (though I have listed only 10, there can be more), there are 1023 ways in which an event can occur; and the probability of predicting the occurrence of a specific event and also identifying the precise combination of these factors is less than 0.1%. As one can see; as the number of factors involved reduces, the probability of predicting the correct outcome increases; and when there is only one factor, the probability of predicting the correct outcome becomes 100%.

Karma involves conscious actions, but it is not the only factor that decides the final outcome of an event as there are many other factors that also play crucial part in deciding the final outcome.

Therefore, any prediction based on just one's own karma can carry only a very tiny probability of 0.1% of it ever being correct while the probability of it being false is more than 99.9%.

:D :) :thumbsup:



okei rohit,

Karma, assuming, may be responsible for 0.1 PERCENT to cause an event.

nothing is in a complete circle, all are probabilities... then... all are RANDOM...

can we say IMPERFECTION, AND IMBALANCE AND RANDOMNESS is the nature of nature (absolute truth) ?

AM I right, when I say Randomness means has no logic or rational action as a part of it?

then ...

Is not random theory the MOST illogical and IRRATIONAL theory where REASONING has NO PLAY AT ALL?

:? :? :?
No SP; that is not what it means. What it means is that every action (cause) that is capable of producing reaction(s) (effects) is not necessarily the single independent factor to cause a specific event; there are many other factors that influence the entire sequence of events causing one to act, or rather react, in a certain way. On the other hand, the one who acts is merely responding to the situations he/she didn't expect and/or create.

For example, you wouldn’t respond to my post that I have not posted yet, but you may respond to one, only after I have posted one, as you just did. Similarly, I wouldn’t, or rather couldn’t respond to those un-posted posts, until they are posted and I have read them. Likewise, I wouldn’t be writing this post, with these specific contents; had you chosen not to respond to my post.

Moreover, my previous post (rather contents of it) was nothing but a random event for all of you, as no one could predict the time and contents of my post until I have posted it. Similarly anyone else’s post is a random event for me, as I cannot predict who is going to post next and with what contents.

So, one’s action (read it as karma), in its entirety, is nothing more than a random event for others even when it is not entirely a random event for the one who acts, but the one who acts is at the mercy of many other random events, which may well be an action or actions of others, or may well be other natural causes or a combination of all, which are beyond the power and/or control of the one who acts when he/she faces the unexpected situation.

Despite all these randomness, we all know what is being discussed here, but that condition remains true only until someone suddenly comes and throws a red herring or posts fallacies. The prediction of that event and understanding that as such is nothing but logic or reason. :)

Such randomness, which become more and more predictable as we learn more about characterising them and also learn the laws that govern them (number of factors and the way they behave), is the true nature of this empirical reality.

I hope this is clear enough to clarify your query.

:D :) :thumbsup: [/tscii:125f462656]

If one goes through the entire thread, any sensible individual would hardly fail to grasp that the whole discussion has developed under the law of cause and effects or the process of actions and reactions as clearly explained above.

This explains why some of you may take my responses as sheer sarcasms.

This will also explain why my explanations and posts have triggered severe dissonance in the TCBs and driven them completely :x ; combined with the acute conditions of paranoia. :lol:

Dear friends,

I have said more than enough on the topic as well as on the pertinent doctrines to such an extent that it would be wise if I now leave it entirely up to the individuals to draw their own, rationally valid, conclusions.

Good luck!

:D :) :thumbsup:

[SRS]

Fine !
Dear SRS, Rohit and thamiz of this section,
May I know thje views of yours on the subject ? :)
I mean "Karma vs Vidhi"

Well, what do you think, is the reason for the disparity you see around you? Why some are super-wealthy and others are just scraping by? Don't you think, if free will was the only determinant, everyone would choose a comfortable life? But actually, this situation is impossible. Consider the availability of resources, for example - land and living space. Then there is the nature of the economy itself. The doctor is as important as the truck driver - if the truck driver did not deliver the medicine, the doctor's job, in a modern setting, would become impossible. Finally, there is the limitation imposed by human nature itself. Even if everyone had the opportunity to become a doctor/engineer, with unlimited resources, many could not reach the objective. Why else do you suppose India and China are producing engineers at three times the rate of the resource-wealthy West? So you see, these disparities are inherent to the very nature of the existence of society itself. Manu realized this when he created the caste system. Although many are critical of the caste system, one should realize, that every economic system will have at its base a percentage of lower class individuals. I have seen this for myself - visiting the city of Los Angeles (USA), there were people sleeping in boxes! I am saying, just because you promise this and that to everyone, such as free education, free housing, the society in general will have some fundamental inequities. I think when Manu created the caste system, it was not to prove that one group is better than another; it was so that everyone knew everyone's place in society - no need for charities, no need for World Bank, IMF, Red Cross, MSF, UNESCO, etc. Of course, it was a much simpler world back then. I do not think the caste system is applicable to the modern world. However, the reasons for karma are still the same.

[goodsense]

To confirm what I had said earlier about the tasting the fruits and selecting the sweet one. I couldn't remember the lady's name (although I know it started with S) and couldn't remember what fruit it was, but remembered the essence of the story.

"This old saintly lady had been waiting for Rama for years in the forest and Rama and Laxmana meet her and taste the fruits given by her. She had tasted each of those fruits so that she would not give any bitter ones to Sri Rama"

http://www.balagokulam.org/kids/quiz/rama2.php

Why do your think she did that? Wherever, there is love, there is God and wherever there is God, there is love. It is the good "thought" and "action" that followed that matter, it is not just a paradox of who owns/creates what is given to them. And as a senior spiritual master recently said, where there is devotion/meditation to the Lord, the Lord is present/reveals himself.

[thamizhvaanan]

I think when Manu created the caste system, it was not to prove that one group is better than another; it was so that everyone knew everyone's place in society - no need for charities, no need for World Bank, IMF, Red Cross, MSF, UNESCO, etc. :ty: for ur views. manu will feel very happy.

India needs more forward thinking individuals like you :evil:

[Shakthiprabha.]

TV, Others,

Varnashrama has led to LOTS OF EVILS in the society. No denying at all.

One probably has to see, THE CAUSE for which it was created, was for a good one. It was a BEAUTIFUL MANAGEMENT THEORY LIKE PPL BEING DELEGATED the right job down the organisational hirarchy.

Its for the efficiency of organisation as the whole. (here society)

Everybody has a job, they specialise in it, and hence QUALITY at its best :?

By segregating, i am sure, THE INITIAL THEORY DID NOT SAY, one sect is GREATER THAN ANOTHER. Everybody were equal.

Lack of understanding of the system, led to problems later date.

However, I DO NOT AGREE, these DISCRIMINATION HAS TO BE BASED ON BIRTH :( :? It should be based on TALENT or AREA OF SPECIALISATION :?

May be it was assumed, the skills would be passed on easily from a DAD to his SON :?

I aint supporting varnashrama, I just wanna say, WHEN IT WAS DEVISED, it must have had a genuine reason.

LATER HELL AROSE because of that. Definitely no denying.

[thamizhvaanan]

I wont digress further, but this will be my last digression.

All the proponents of Varma system, happily leave out the horrendous rules written in manu smriti, which goes far beyond giving guidelines to an economic system.

By the way, ECONOMIC SYSTEM, MANAGEMENT THEORY???? :omg:

I dont see the purpose of segregating into communities based on job. Man has been doing several job right from stone age and he didn need a specialized nomenclature, leave alone partial laws based on profession, to help him do his job better.

All over the world, throughout the history, people were doing their respective jobs and they were called only by their respective job names .. blacksmith, barber, farmer etc. This didn hinder any of their economic system from developing.

I squarely fail to understand how the varma system cud have been implemented from a utilitarian point of view. And where does efficiency come here inbetween :huh:

I presume ppl are building arguements for the sake of this system, because of the obstinate beleif that whatever our ancestors did, was right in one way or another. Thats why we find ourselves defending them even if our conscience challenges every bit of ethics involved in our defence.

To me... our ancestors had their share of devil in their mind. Hope that devil is chastised atleast in the modern era. That ends my stance :wave:

[pavalamani pragasam]

:clap: :thumbsup:

[SRS]

TV, Others,

Varnashrama has led to LOTS OF EVILS in the society. No denying at all.

Usually those who criticize Smriti, forget that in other places of the world, at that time, punishment was just as bad. The Romans, for example, thought it was a great amusement to put a condemned man and a wild beast in a small space, and watch the man defend himself.


One probably has to see, THE CAUSE for which it was created, was for a good one. It was a BEAUTIFUL MANAGEMENT THEORY LIKE PPL BEING DELEGATED the right job down the organisational hirarchy.

It was not created to be compatible with globalization. There was an everyday threat from outside invaders, so it was necessary that a warrior caste be there. Agriculture was the primary occupation, so the idea of public education did not make sense. Vedas were very important for passing down cultural traditions. The ancient religions of Rome, Greece, Iran, Egypt, and Western Europe now exist only in symbolic form. If Smirti had not very specifically assigned religious duties to the Brahmins, I do not think Hinduism would exist today, not even the sects


However, I DO NOT AGREE, these DISCRIMINATION HAS TO BE BASED ON BIRTH :( :? It should be based on TALENT or AREA OF SPECIALISATION :?

See what I said earlier. Even if you gave everyone an equal opportunity to become a doctor or engineer, not all would choose to do so. Some simply have no interest. Some are simply incapable. It is human nature itself, not Smirti, that is responsible for the different occupations. But also see what I said before, all of the occupations are important. It was the brilliance of Smirti to recognize the importance of every occupation. Now, where does capitalism recognize the importance of a janitor or a taxi cab driver or factory worker? They are important only in so far as production is concerned.

[P_R]

For too long, this has been sold as a system of division of labour. The system is as much about the division of labour as it is about the the division of labourers. The very insistence on following the ancestral calling, is coercive.

Little good comes from defending any possibile nobility of its origins. It may satisfy academic curiosity, which is a great thing to have. But, at the end of the day, it proves next to nothing.

At the risk of quoting Gandhi very selectively I use his words, simply because he puts it better than I can ever hope to:

"[varna] is a custom whose origin I do not know and do not need to know for the satisfaction of my spiritual hunger. But I do know that it is harmful both to spiritual and national growth." -(Harijan, July 18, 1936)


I presume ppl are building arguements for the sake of this system, because of the obstinate beleif that whatever our ancestors did, was right in one way or another. Thats why we find ourselves defending them even if our conscience challenges every bit of ethics involved in our defence. Well put.

We have also moved ahead enough to be relieved of having to defend things of the past necessarily for their own sake. I once again quote the Mahatma from the same article:
Nothing can be accepted as the word of God which cannot be tested by reason or be capable of being spiritually experienced.

Much less the word of Manu !

[SRS]

For too long, this has been sold as a system of division of labour. The system is as much about the division of labour as it is about the the division of labourers. The very insistence on following the ancestral calling, is coercive.

Little good comes from defending any possibile nobility of its origins. It may satisfy academic curiosity, which is a great thing to have. But, at the end of the day, it proves next to nothing.

At the risk of quoting Gandhi very selectively I use his words, simply because he puts it better than I can ever hope to:

"[varna] is a custom whose origin I do not know and do not need to know for the satisfaction of my spiritual hunger. But I do know that it is harmful both to spiritual and national growth." -(Harijan, July 18, 1936)


I presume ppl are building arguements for the sake of this system, because of the obstinate beleif that whatever our ancestors did, was right in one way or another. Thats why we find ourselves defending them even if our conscience challenges every bit of ethics involved in our defence. Well put.

We have also moved ahead enough to be relieved of having to defend things of the past necessarily for their own sake. I once again quote the Mahatma from the same article:
Nothing can be accepted as the word of God which cannot be tested by reason or be capable of being spiritually experienced.

Much less the word of Manu !

The alternative to Manu is unbridled capitalism. Mass globalization...... now I ask you, is this the solution to all social ills? The answer is no, because every economic system relies on a certain class of people being at the bottom of the heap. Promising one fellow he can be wealthy tomorrow simply means that if that fellow becomes wealthy (millionare, billionare, etc.) there will always be another fellow to replace the former fellow's previous occupation.

[P_R]

The alternative to Manu is unbridled capitalism. It is so scary out there, so we better stay indoors. :huh:


every economic system relies on a certain class of people being at the bottom of the heap. True. So we would be interested in making an effort towards a system where people can have a shot at what they want to do. They may fail. Most do and settle down to do stuff they are good at, or things they can make do with. I am not even making any efficiency arguments here. But making it an offence to do anything but duties prescribed by birth is coercive - to say the least.

Classification by birth cannot but lead to discrimination and oppression.

This is not to say that other systems do not have ills. But the fact that other do, does not make a case for varnasrama.

btw all this is assuming Manu's laws were aimed at creating a just and equal society. IMO , a highly demanding assumption.

[pavalamani pragasam]

:exactly:

[dsath]

Usually those who criticize Smriti, forget that in other places of the world, at that time, punishment was just as bad. The Romans, for example, thought it was a great amusement to put a condemned man and a wild beast in a small space, and watch the man defend himself.

Usually those who rely on other forms of slavery to support Smriti forget that the Romans had a system where in the master could free a slave while the Indians didn't and some still don't want to.
May be the Roman slaves had a better Karma than their Indian counterparts.



The ancient religions of Rome, Greece, Iran, Egypt, and Western Europe now exist only in symbolic form. If Smirti had not very specifically assigned religious duties to the Brahmins, I do not think Hinduism would exist today, not even the sects

You are absolutely right on that one. All the ancient religions/civilizations got rid of slavery and as a result their significance and dominance reduced and they exist only in symbolic form now. We Indians didn't and hence we are still enjoying our culture and religion in all its glory.



However, I DO NOT AGREE, these DISCRIMINATION HAS TO BE BASED ON BIRTH :( :? It should be based on TALENT or AREA OF SPECIALISATION :?

See what I said earlier. Even if you gave everyone an equal opportunity to become a doctor or engineer, not all would choose to do so. Some simply have no interest. Some are simply incapable. It is human nature itself, not Smirti, that is responsible for the different occupations. But also see what I said before, all of the occupations are important. It was the brilliance of Smirti to recognize the importance of every occupation.

I wonder why the brilliance of Smirit didn't recognize the importance of Social mobility.

[Shakthiprabha.]

I thought this thread talks on KARMIC theory :?

This digression would lead us NOWHERE except wounding 1000s of hearts.

'Varnashrama' talks generally leaves everybody bruised.

SIDE A wont agree with SIDE B, and vice versa.

So please!... get back to the topic.

Its a request!

Accept my apologies for contributing a post on the same.

SORRY!

[kannannn]

I thought this thread talks on KARMIC theory :?


You thought wrong SP!! This thread has become so generic in nature that it is difficult to recall what the original debate was. Just wondering - has any of the issues raised in this thread been debated and brought to its logical conclusion?!!

[P_R]

Just wondering - has any of the issues raised in this thread been debated and brought to its logical conclusion?! Ah ! you are ahead in that you are able to follow a line of argument and discern logical conclusions and their absences. I am nowehere there. Every once in few weeks I attempt to read the thread carefully and only end up getting my hair mussed :-)

[Shakthiprabha.]

Kannan,

As much as I know with my meagre stay on this earth (not necessarily in hub)

NO ISSUES ever comes to any conclusion .

Nobody agrees with anybody ever!

Well there are lessons, theories, new aspects of the same issues learnt.

Just treasure those perspectives and lessosn alone :D

PR,

:lol:

[P_R]

As much as I know with my meagre stay on this earth If, by 'meagre' you are suggesting short-stay, it is 'sandhula sindhu' :-)

[Shakthiprabha.]

:lol:

I never knew, this thread could have lighter moments :D

[kannannn]

PR, I have lost count of the number of times I've tried to follow a common thread in the arguments and ended up holding a tangled ball in my hands. I completely understand your situation.

SP, I completely agree. Putting things in perspective, a debate has to offer either of these two:
1. Acceptance by one of the parties to the logical supremacy of the other.
2. Emergence of interesting points and new perspectives that don't necessarily lead to victory or defeat.

Alas, such moments of entertainment are few and far between.

[dsath]

I thought this thread talks on KARMIC theory :?

This digression would lead us NOWHERE except wounding 1000s of hearts.

'Varnashrama' talks generally leaves everybody bruised.

SIDE A wont agree with SIDE B, and vice versa.

So please!... get back to the topic.

Its a request!

Accept my apologies for contributing a post on the same.

SORRY!
SP all this debate on Varnashrama (what a fancy name for the caste system) started with SRS explaining, Selva's query as below.



Fine !
Dear SRS, Rohit and thamiz of this section,
May I know thje views of yours on the subject ? :)
I mean "Karma vs Vidhi"

Well, what do you think, is the reason for the disparity you see around you? Why some are super-wealthy and others are just scraping by? Don't you think, if free will was the only determinant, everyone would choose a comfortable life? But actually, this situation is impossible. Consider the availability of resources, for example - land and living space. Then there is the nature of the economy itself. The doctor is as important as the truck driver - if the truck driver did not deliver the medicine, the doctor's job, in a modern setting, would become impossible. Finally, there is the limitation imposed by human nature itself. Even if everyone had the opportunity to become a doctor/engineer, with unlimited resources, many could not reach the objective. Why else do you suppose India and China are producing engineers at three times the rate of the resource-wealthy West? So you see, these disparities are inherent to the very nature of the existence of society itself. Manu realized this when he created the caste system. Although many are critical of the caste system, one should realize, that every economic system will have at its base a percentage of lower class individuals. I have seen this for myself - visiting the city of Los Angeles (USA), there were people sleeping in boxes! I am saying, just because you promise this and that to everyone, such as free education, free housing, the society in general will have some fundamental inequities. I think when Manu created the caste system, it was not to prove that one group is better than another; it was so that everyone knew everyone's place in society - no need for charities, no need for World Bank, IMF, Red Cross, MSF, UNESCO, etc. Of course, it was a much simpler world back then. I do not think the caste system is applicable to the modern world. However, the reasons for karma are still the same.
When you get a reply like this for the question in hand then how can you not expect any digressions? Well on second thoughts i think may be its Karma or the cognitive ability of the brain to respond to stimulus.
And Yes, Kannan and Prabhu i agree with you. When i am confused with something at work, i read this thread and realize my confusion is nothing when compared to this.

[SRS]

Classification by birth cannot but lead to discrimination and oppression.

It is percieved as discrimination only in the context of competition. There is no competition as far as MS is concerned. Everything is fixed.



This is not to say that other systems do not have ills. But the fact that other do, does not make a case for varnasrama.

Speaking of ills, MS recognized the freedom of each individual, within the domain of their respective spheres. Many, many degrees above slavery.



btw all this is assuming Manu's laws were aimed at creating a just and equal society. IMO , a highly demanding assumption.

If you mean a just and equal society in which public education was freely available, then there is nothing to be said in the way of demanding assumptions. As I stated earlier, there was no need for public education.

[SRS]

Usually those who rely on other forms of slavery to support Smriti forget that the Romans had a system where in the master could free a slave while the Indians didn't and some still don't want to.
May be the Roman slaves had a better Karma than their Indian counterparts.

Slavery is slavery. The master has total control over his slaves. The slave does not exist as an individual with any rights, with any dignity. MS is far superior to any system of slavery. Slavery was practiced in the West until the 1860's - this is a fact that is conviniently ignored by those who criticize MS. By the way, the Romans were very, very brutal. By brutal I do not mean evil; I mean brutal, judging from what we would call cruel in the context of a modern day perspective.



You are absolutely right on that one. All the ancient religions/civilizations got rid of slavery and as a result their significance and dominance reduced and they exist only in symbolic form now. We Indians didn't and hence we are still enjoying our culture and religion in all its glory.

Yes, you can thank the Vedas that Islam or Buddhism did not take over India. It was a close call.



I wonder why the brilliance of Smirit didn't recognize the importance of Social mobility.

Because there was no need for social mobility. The occupations at that time were relatively simple.

[Sudhaama]

.
DESTINY by SOCIAL-DESCRIMINATION imposed.!!

Here is a WORTHY MESSAGE on this interesting topic of UNENDING CONTROVERSY..

.. leading to everlasting UNDUE Blames and Counter-blames..

.. amongst the Hindus of contemporary age.

This Valid-News & True-Message can radically put an end to this controversy.

At one stage Dr Ambedkar got frustrated with Hinduism and embraced Budhism suddenly.

He publicly announced his decision justifying that...

... the Hinduism is a Biased-Religion of Caste-divisions by birth...

...resulting in unfair Social-discrimination and INHUMAN-OPPRESSION.

The news was widely published in the then Newspapers.

Then Mr. Rajaji wrote to Dr.Ambedkar stating...

..."On one or the other contentions of your own.. if you believe Budhism is better for you than the Vedic Religion, the so called Hinduism .

...and so if you prefer to embrace Budhism... well, I have nothing to comment on it...

...since it is your PERSONAL AFFAIR based on individuals right on likes and options.

But I cannot be a silent spectator if and when you publicly attribute UNDUE BLAMES and BASELESS ALLEGATIONS..

...on the sacred VEDIC-SCRIPTURES of this Great Religion of UNIVERSAL-OUTLOOK.

In brief...Rajaji defended..

(1) Manu-Smrithi is NOT AT ALL A RELIGIOUS SCRIPTURE nor an AUTHENTIC SACRED DOCUMENT to form as the basis for enacting the Social Laws.

... It was a Man-made COMPILATIONS from amongst different sections of the people of the respective countries.

Consequently the Manu-Smrithis varied from country to country then.

(2) The Names Brahmana, Vaisya, Kshathriya, Vaisya etc mentioned in the Vedic-Scriptures do not denote the Caste-names..

.. but the Names by POSITIVE-SENSE... on INDIVIDUALS..

...based on the QUALITIES of the Souls BY BIRTH..irrespective of Parentage.

Accordingly by Vedic-sense Lord Parasurama was a Kshathriya although born to the so-named Brahmin parents...

...while Krishna was a Brahmin although born as Kshathriya and brought up by Soodra-parents.

Even amongst the brothers of one and the same Parentage of one family, we can find such wide disparity.

For example, Ravana was a Kshathriya... by the Vedic-sense....

... while Kumbakarna was a Soodhra .. and Vibheeshana a Brahmin... (Saathvic.)..

..while the Parentage was the same... their Father a so called Brahmin.

Those Positive Nomenclatures were subsequently adopted by the then Kings..

.. MISUSING to name the Segments of the people on the basis of birth..

.. suiting to the Rulers' AUTOCRACY and Perversions...

... mischivously and ignorantly based on MIS-INTERPRETATIONS of Sacred Terminologies

(3) All over the Vedic Scriptures we can categorically find the UNIVERSAL- OUTLOOK of Large-Heartedness...

... affirming the SOCIAL-EQUALITY...coupled with HUMANE-LOVE amongst the Mankind...

...as well as towards other creatures as well.

So there cannot exist any INCONSISTENCY nor any SELF CONTRADICTIONS anywhere in the Gospel...

...propounded IMPARTIALLY by God towards the WELFARE OF OVERALL HUMANITY...

...intended for UNIFIED ADVANCEMENT OF MANKIND...ensuring Peace and Social-Harmony..GLOBALLY

Then Dr Ambedkar raised several doubts and counter-arguments..

Some of the basic Questions raised by Dr.Ambedkar were as follows...

(1) How and Why the Social-segmentation Code by name MANU-SMRITHI cropped up in India... during the period of Kings Monarchy?

(2) Does such a DISCRIMINATIVE Social-strata by birth is authorised by Vedic-Scriptures? If not how it was authenticated in the name of Religion?

(3) Has such a Divisive-basis of BIASED TREATMENT coupled with UNEQUAL LAWS..done anything GOOD...

...either to the Society or even the Kings who supported it?...

...even during those periods...while those Laws were in vogue?

All the questions and counter-arguments from Dr Ambedkar were duly answered through volley of correspondence by Rajaji...

...based on Ramanujacharyas earlier descriptive clarifications...

.. on the unfair blames and MIS-INTERPRETATIONS... of the Vedic-Scriptures..

.. to avail undue advantage of a Gospel.. by the then Kings.

Finally Dr Ambedkar got FULLY CONVINCED..

.. with regrets to Rajaji and advised his followers accordingly.
.

[P_R]

As I stated earlier, there was no need for public education. In the sense that there would be completely interdependence on each other ?

Interdependence is inevitable in any society, but when it comes to matters of vital interests like education and personal safety....?

Any ideology,system that tries to deny man's primary motivator: self interest, is doomed to lead to disaster, oppression and in extreme cases brutality. Even 20th century bears testimony to that.

Manudharma is not a system of prescription, it is a system of proscription. It is right up there with the 'Fall of Man' in branding knowledge too dangerous for men. The punishments for learning something not 'prescribed by birth' would be found universally repulsive.

Like SP said, this is going to go nowhere. Let's get back to Karma vs. Vidhi.

[SRS]

As I stated earlier, there was no need for public education. In the sense that there would be completely interdependence on each other ?

No, the primary occupations at that time were generally clear-cut. Everyone had a well-defined role, not based on discrimination but based on preserving social cohesion. If everyone studied Vedas, who would farm? Who would fight the foreign invaders? Who would manage the land (where I assume there was not enough land for everyone to be a land-owner).




Any ideology,system that tries to deny man's primary motivator: self interest, is doomed to lead to disaster, oppression and in extreme cases brutality. Even 20th century bears testimony to that.

What MS did is provide social cohesion. It did this successfully for well over 2000 years, until foreign invaders began exploiting it for their own self interest. Self interest should not come at the expense of social cohesion. What we are seeing with globalization, which is essentially unbridled capitalism, is social disintegration.



Manudharma is not a system of prescription, it is a system of proscription. It is right up there with the 'Fall of Man' in branding knowledge too dangerous for men. The punishments for learning something not 'prescribed by birth' would be found universally repulsive.


Most people have very little interest in acquiring knowledge for the sake of knowledge alone. These days, "knowledge" is freely available, at an unprecedented rate. However, the intellectual achievements of the average individual have not increased in direct proportion. Just because knowledge is available does not mean everyone will start studying day and night.


Like SP said, this is going to go nowhere. Let's get back to Karma vs. Vidhi.

Any discussion of karma would run into questions posed by MS. That is why I brought it up.

[SRS]

A book of laws such as the Code of Manu has the same origin as every other good law-book: it epitomizes the experience, the sagacity and the ethical experimentation of long centuries; it brings things to a conclusion; it no longer creates.

To draw up such a law-book as Manu's means to lay before a people the possibility of future mastery, of attainable perfection--it permits them to aspire to the highest reaches of the art of life. To that end the thing must be made unconscious: that is the aim of every holy lie.--The order of castes, the highest, the dominating law, is merely the ratification of an order of nature, of a natural law of the first rank, over which no arbitrary fiat, no "modern idea," can exert any influence. In every healthy society there are three physiological types, gravitating toward differentiation but mutually conditioning one another, and each of these has its own hygiene, its own sphere of work, its own special mastery and feeling of perfection. It is not Manu but nature that sets off in one class those who are chiefly intellectual, in another those who are marked by muscular strength and temperament, and in a third those who are distinguished in neither one way or the other, but show only mediocrity--the last-named represents the great majority, and the first two the select. The superior caste--I call it the fewest--has, as the most perfect, the privileges of the few: it stands for happiness, for beauty, for everything good upon earth. Only the most intellectual of men have any right to beauty, to the beautiful; only in them can goodness escape being weakness.

A high civilization is a pyramid: it can stand only on a broad base; its primary prerequisite is a strong and soundly consolidated mediocrity. The handicrafts, commerce, agriculture, science, the greater part of art, in brief, the whole range of occupational activities, are compatible only with mediocre ability and aspiration; such callings would be out of place for exceptional men; the instincts which belong to them stand as much opposed to aristocracy as to anarchism. The fact that a man is publicly useful, that he is a wheel, a function, is evidence of a natural predisposition; it is not society, but the only sort of happiness that the majority are capable of, that makes them intelligent machines. To the mediocre mediocrity is a form of happiness; they have a natural instinct for mastering one thing, for specialization. It would be altogether unworthy of a profound intellect to see anything objectionable in mediocrity in itself. It is, in fact, the first prerequisite to the appearance of the exceptional: it is a necessary condition to a high degree of civilization. When the exceptional man handles the mediocre man with more delicate fingers than he applies to himself or to his equals, this is not merely kindness of heart--it is simply his duty. . . . Whom do I hate most heartily among the rabbles of today? The rabble of Socialists, the apostles to the Chandala, who undermine the workingman's instincts, his pleasure, his feeling of contentment with his petty existence--who make him envious and teach him revenge. . . . Wrong never lies in unequal rights; it lies in the assertion of "equal" rights. . . . What is bad? But I have already answered: all that proceeds from weakness, from envy, from revenge...

- Friedrich Nietzsche, The Anti-Christ

[P_R]

This Valid-News & True-Message can radically put an end to this controversy. Thanks for the info Sudhaama. It is with reference to the publication of Dr.Ambedkar's 'Annihilation of Caste' that Mahatma Gandhi had written the reply in his paper Harijan, from which I quoted yesterday.


Everyone had a well-defined role, not based on discrimination but based on preserving social cohesion. If everyone studied Vedas, who would farm? Who would fight the foreign invaders? Who would manage the land (where I assume there was not enough land for everyone to be a land-owner). I already said that no-one is going to dispute division of labour. But a system of assigning duties by birth and making them inflexible, and in fact, makes transgression punishable is where the problem is.


What MS did is provide social cohesion. It did this successfully for well over 2000 years, until foreign invaders began exploiting it for their own self interest. Are you claiming it was all milk and honey even until the 12th century ??? If yes, I'd have nothing further to say at all.


Just because knowledge is available does not mean everyone will start studying day and night. How does this make a case for anything. Suppose, someone wants to know and learn something, that too something deemed 'sacred' and instructional enough that society is run with inspiration from it , if not adherence to it. Then he seeks knowledge not for its own sake but because it affects him quite directly. It is denied to him because it is not 'needed' for him. What is meant by needed here ? This itself is judging each person by the extent to which he is 'useful' to society. How is this morally any different from the capitalism that we are all so eager to trash ?

By saying it is not 'needed', I feel, there is already a judgment being made whether the person seeking it is equal to receiving the knowledge or not. And that decision is being made by virtue of birth. How in the wildest imagination can that be fair ?

Manu, is in grand exalted company of several, including Plato in trying to classify people by types. Any such classification can at best, be roughly applicable over a small period that the code-giver has seen and studied the population in.

To make out-of-sample predictions and that too down the future is impossible. Assigning social positions and functions by birth necessitates having to maintain endogamous purity simply because the code giver has not seen types intermingle and doesn't have an assignment for such cases ! When this is goes on with years of traditions, its existence itself becomes its argument.


Only the most intellectual of men have any right to beauty, to the beautiful; only in them can goodness escape being weakness. Didn't get this one. Why ?

The general drift I get from the Nietzsche you have quoted is the point that you have already made quite clearly: 'every society has got to have some on top and some at the bottom'. I have already agreed to this simply because it is a truism: every race has someone first and someone last.

What is unacceptable is to say that one's calling is a function of one's ancestry.


Whom do I hate most heartily among the rabbles of today? The rabble of Socialists, the apostles to the Chandala, who undermine the workingman's instincts, his pleasure, his feeling of contentment with his petty existence--who make him envious and teach him revenge. . . . Wrong never lies in unequal rights; it lies in the assertion of "equal" rights. . . . What is bad? But I have already answered: all that proceeds from weakness, from envy, from revenge... By this argument the status quo of anything can be justified as long as the party who could do better does not think no he could do better.

And I use better quite intentionally. The question is if the 'feeling of contentment', Herr Nietzsche points out is a contentment that arises out of considering the options, or it is one borne out of an understanding that nothing else his possible for him.

It is my conjecture there would be a sizable number for whom the latter is the case. i.e. had he known there were other choices open, he may choose ancestral prescriptions. So to make sure, he doesn't consider the possibility of choice is to not let him gain knowledge. Ah ! We have that base already covered.

To sum, very simply. No-one worth his salt will claims equality of talents and temperaments in all human beings. But anyone who claims that it can be judged at birth is talking through his hat. And any system based on this assumption will only pit classes against each other.

[dsath]

MS is far superior to any system of slavery.

Sorry, i am not into discussing which form of slavery is better.


Yes, you can thank the Vedas that Islam or Buddhism did not take over India. It was a close call.

Discussing the benefits/ill effects of Hinduism Vs Islam Vs Buddhism is not in the scope of the thread and the HUB.


Because there was no need for social mobility.

Would you work in an organization where there is no chance for career progression?

When there is justification for MS there is always this 'I think' accompanying the justification. We don't know for sure and don't have evidence to support the supposedly good intentions of the caste system. In history an event that cannot be supported by evidence is a MYTH.

TV's and PR's post summarized everything and one can't wake up people who are pretending to sleep.

[pavalamani pragasam]

:exactly:

[Rohit]

TCB[/b]]If everyone studied Vedas, who would farm? Who would fight the foreign invaders? Who would manage the land..
Q1. If no one studied the Vedas, would no one farm?

Q2. If no one studied the Vedas, would no one fight? [In fact, no one did!]

Q3. If no one studied the Vedas, would no one manage?

Q4. Would those who studied the Vedas, not convert themselves into Sudras and happily serve their Western Masters of Multinationals?Anyway, studying the Vedas is extremely entertaining and painfully hilarious exercise.

However, following the Vedas takes nothing less than blindly dropping yourself into the Vicious Spiral of Cognitive Degeneration (VSCD).

Buddha not only realised that well, but also made many others to realise that as well.

The reaction was consequential. The End of the Vedas i.e. VedAnta was soon taken up as a follow up action by the TCBs. But as the luck would have it, VedAnta turned out to be even more entertaining and painlessly hilarious; and following VedAnta not only increased the rate at which one would go round the circle, but also increased the speed at which one would slide down the VSCD, as everyone must have noticed that by now. The resulting outcome was/is, without any reasonable doubt, absolutely self-evident.

:D :) :thumbsup:

[SRS]

I already said that no-one is going to dispute division of labour. But a system of assigning duties by birth and making them inflexible, and in fact, makes transgression punishable is where the problem is.

As I said, maintaining the cohesion of the society was more important than protecting the civil liberties of every individual. Keep in mind that were no organizations to manage relations at the time. Every nation was at the liberty of every other nation. The threat of outside invasion was a very real threat, that had to be dealt with on a daily basis.


Are you claiming it was all milk and honey even until the 12th century ??? If yes, I'd have nothing further to say at all.

Rome fell. Greece fell. Ancient Egypt fell. Vedic India did not fall. There has to be a reason for that. To understand the reason why Vedic India was able to withstand wave after of foreign invasion we have to look at the dominant culture of the time. What values did it promote? How did these values contribute to the cultural preservation of the society itself? In the case of Vedic India , a large majority of these values were based on MS.


How does this make a case for anything. Suppose, someone wants to know and learn something, that too something deemed 'sacred' and instructional enough that society is run with inspiration from it , if not adherence to it. Then he seeks knowledge not for its own sake but because it affects him quite directly. It is denied to him because it is not 'needed' for him. What is meant by needed here ? This itself is judging each person by the extent to which he is 'useful' to society. How is this morally any different from the capitalism that we are all so eager to trash ?

It takes a tremendous amount of resources to allow every individual to experiment in as many fields as he chooses, before deciding what career path he/she is best fit for. Rarely is the output produced by such individuals of an outstanding caliber. I say rarely, because in any field, most individuals rarely distinguish themselves. If most individuals rarely distinguish themselves, then it does indeed make sense to conserve resources and attempt to train a carefully select group of people to perform intellectually demanding tasks. This is, in fact, how the educational system functions in Communist countries. A prime example is chess. The USSR dominated the chess world for decades by training an elite group of players, from a young age, in special purpose schools. The same was true for gymnastics (an olympic sport in which the USSR still dominates). This is what MS did as well. And we have the results - Vedic mathematics, science, astronomy, medicine, etc. was centuries, if not millenia, ahead of the West (a conclusion which most of the famous Western physicists well agree with). The Brahmins produced work of the highest quality; most of the Indian Nobel Prize Winners (physical science) were Brahmins. Ramanujan was a Brahmin. This is not to imply that non-Brahmins are incapable of winning a Nobel ; I am simply pointing out, that objectively speaking, the Brahmins have something to show for their accomplishments.


By saying it is not 'needed', I feel, there is already a judgment being made whether the person seeking it is equal to receiving the knowledge or not. And that decision is being made by virtue of birth. How in the wildest imagination can that be fair ?

My premise is that not all people are created equal. Pouring resources in a vain attempt to equalize matters will not solve the problem. By equal, I don't mean one group is better than another. By equal, I simply mean that relative to a special kind of task, one class of individuals will fare better than another. MS simply defined these classes by birth; it did not waste resources giving people a chance to possibly "improve" or "prove" themselves. No doubt, certain capable people may have been left out of a piece of the pie. I do not disagree with that. However, the real question is, did MS, in the context of the Vedic philosophy, produce anything substantial, of lasting value? And the answer to that is yes... for well over 2000 years, Vedic philosophy led the way in all branches of philosophy, mathematics, science, etc. Was it at the well-being of certain individuals? No doubt. As I said earlier, however, MS did not waste time with experimentation. When you want to breed a certain kind of horse to win the race, and you know which genes are the most favourable, why go with unfavourable ones?


Manu, is in grand exalted company of several, including Plato in trying to classify people by types. Any such classification can at best, be roughly applicable over a small period that the code-giver has seen and studied the population in.

As Nietzsche points out, nature, not Manu is responsible for the different types.


To make out-of-sample predictions and that too down the future is impossible. Assigning social positions and functions by birth necessitates having to maintain endogamous purity simply because the code giver has not seen types intermingle and doesn't have an assignment for such cases !

I admit, it is a rather extreme proposal. That is why I say MS is not applicable in a modern context, because globalization involves intermixing on a grand scale. However, in the case of Vedic India, which was isolated for thousands of years, it is not unreasonable that such a system was in place.




Didn't get this one. Why? The general drift I get from the Nietzsche you have quoted is the point that you have already made quite clearly: 'every society has got to have some on top and some at the bottom'. I have already agreed to this simply because it is a truism: every race has someone first and someone last.

It is yet another way of saying that not all are born equal. MS recognized this, and after providing a religious justification, outlined the economic implications (e.g. divison of labour) most beneficial for the society.


What is unacceptable is to say that one's calling is a function of one's ancestry.

Not necessarily. Like I said before, when the task of every member of society is fixed, there is no need for competition. There is no need for charities. Of course, this is entirely against globalization, in which every individual fends for himself, and solely for himself.


By this argument the status quo of anything can be justified as long as the party who could do better does not think no he could do better. To sum, very simply. No-one worth his salt will claims equality of talents and temperaments in all human beings. But anyone who claims that it can be judged at birth is talking through his hat. And any system based on this assumption will only pit classes against each other.

As I said, very few will distinguish themselves in any field. Most people spend their careers engaging in work, which, though it may be intellectually demanding, is ultimately routine. So if you divide the tasks prescribed by this routine work to very specific proportions of pre-defined individuals, it doesn't make much of a difference. The work is routine after all. However, there are some tasks whose importance goes beyond simply a few individuals. For example, the correct interpretation of a religious text.

[pradheep]

Dear friends
I have posted earlier that Vedic literature Including Manu smriti should be read under the guidance of a master, otherwise it would be misunderstood and practice for selfish ends as it has happened.

Currently we have "Certification" and certified teachers for learning any subject to keep up the "Standard". All this confusion of vedic knowledge arised when such standard means where ignored.

This happens not only in Vedic tradition but everywhere. Look at chsritianity for example, the beautiful teaching sof christ had been twisted for the organization to grow.

Another example is from Buddha. What he has been qouted by rohit but severely mis-interpretted.


There is no arising of Consciousness without conditions.The one, who transcends the Consciousness of the Self, attains Nirvana, the perfect liberation.

Here the consciousness is Ego. Yes there is no arising of Consciousness without conditions, which means Ego, the "I"ness cannot arise without conditions. The fundamental
conditions is material body.

Now the "One" who transcends this consciousness (Ego) attains Nirvana, the perfect liberation or Mokasha, or salvation.

When the Ego (consciousness) that arose by conditions has been transcended what remains is only pure unconditional consciosuness. But this fact is not easily understood and so severely mis-interpretted when not done under the guidance of a guru.

This is what is done not only in Buddhist tradition but in all other traditions. This is the key foundation of all traditions of the world, which we called sanatana dharma.
Tibetian Buddhism still considered the best because they follow the guru system even now.

In all other religions there is so much confusion because of lack of Guru (s).

A person who thinks consciousness arise by conditions accepts in Fate that everything is preprogrammed like a robot.

A Robot has no free will because how it thinks, how it acts depends on its program. It cannot graps the concept of free will. It will ask what is free will?.

If some one thinks that they are conditioned (programmed) consciousness (which in spiritual language called as EGO), they cannot understand about free will.

My postings is based on "Free will". "I" am not a robot, I have free will the choice making, because I understand clearly that my Ego consciousness arises with conditions, but the "I" is that consciousness without conditions, that is Nirvana, Moksha, freedom.

The Ego does not want to be free, it wants to be in its cozy prision and never allows any one think of free will ,because if its teaches free will then it cannot keep everything under control.

[Rohit]

TCB[/b]]- The threat of outside invasion was a very real threat, that had to be dealt with on a daily basis.

- Rome fell. Greece fell. Ancient Egypt fell. Vedic India did not fall.

- However, there are some tasks whose importance goes beyond simply a few individuals. For example, the correct interpretation of a religious text.

This separation between the Buddhists and the Brahmins is the cause of the downfall of India. That is why India is populated by three hundred millions of beggars, and that is why India has been the slave of conquerors for the last thousand years.

- Swami Vivekananda, 29th September 1893 - At The Parliament of Religions

In India, during the terrible famines, thousands died from hunger, yet you Christians did nothing. You erect churches all through India, but the crying evil in the East is not religion - they have religion enough - but it is bread that the suffering millions of burning India cry out for with parched throats. They ask us for bread, but we give them stones. It is an insult to a starving people to offer them religion; it is an insult to a starving man to teach him metaphysics.

- Swami Vivekananda, 26th September 1893 - At The Parliament of Religions

[dsath]

As I said, maintaining the cohesion of the society was more important than protecting the civil liberties of every individual. Keep in mind that were no organizations to manage relations at the time. Every nation was at the liberty of every other nation. The threat of outside invasion was a very real threat, that had to be dealt with on a daily basis.
Rome fell. Greece fell. Ancient Egypt fell. Vedic India did not fall. There has to be a reason for that. To understand the reason why Vedic India was able to withstand wave after of foreign invasion we have to look at the dominant culture of the time. What values did it promote? How did these values contribute to the cultural preservation of the society itself? In the case of Vedic India , a large majority of these values were based on MS.

If that indeed was the case then how can you explain the successful invasion of God knows how many foreign kings since the days of Alexander till now (i mean the defeat to China). Did the special group that was created to save the country from Invasions succeed.



It takes a tremendous amount of resources to allow every individual to experiment in as many fields as he chooses, before deciding what career path he/she is best fit for. Rarely is the output produced by such individuals of an outstanding caliber. I say rarely, because in any field, most individuals rarely distinguish themselves. If most individuals rarely distinguish themselves, then it does indeed make sense to conserve resources and attempt to train a carefully select group of people to perform intellectually demanding tasks. This is, in fact, how the educational system functions in Communist countries. A prime example is chess. The USSR dominated the chess world for decades by training an elite group of players, from a young age, in special purpose schools. The same was true for gymnastics (an olympic sport in which the USSR still dominates). This is what MS did as well. And we have the results - Vedic mathematics, science, astronomy, medicine, etc. was centuries, if not millenia, ahead of the West (a conclusion which most of the famous Western physicists well agree with). The Brahmins produced work of the highest quality; most of the Indian Nobel Prize Winners (physical science) were Brahmins. Ramanujan was a Brahmin. This is not to imply that non-Brahmins are incapable of winning a Nobel ; I am simply pointing out, that objectively speaking, the Brahmins have something to show for their accomplishments.

Why then did we not invent the steam engine or electricity or anything of significant scientific achievement. Even in this era of IITs why do we have to compromise our foreign policy towards a friendly nation so that we could have a good nuclear deal from a superpower. Shouldn't we be the ones who are selling it?
I don't want to the say the relevant groups that are dedicated for certain tasks failed - but the system that groups people at birth for division of labour has failed us for centuries. Wake up people. Oh i forgot some are just pretending to sleep.



As I said earlier, however, MS did not waste time with experimentation. When you want to breed a certain kind of horse to win the race, and you know which genes are the most favourable, why go with unfavourable ones?

Do you mean to say that a horse is no different from a human.



Not necessarily. Like I said before, when the task of every member of society is fixed, there is no need for competition. There is no need for charities. Of course, this is entirely against globalization, in which every individual fends for himself, and solely for himself.

Again i ask you, will you work for an organization where there is no chance for career progression. Nothing in this world is static, don't you think Manu was not intelligent enough to recogonize this. Well may be the world was fixed in the days of Manu and did not go around the sun.



As I said, very few will distinguish themselves in any field. Most people spend their careers engaging in work, which, though it may be intellectually demanding, is ultimately routine. So if you divide the tasks prescribed by this routine work to very specific proportions of pre-defined individuals, it doesn't make much of a difference. The work is routine after all. However, there are some tasks whose importance goes beyond simply a few individuals. For example, the correct interpretation of a religious text.
Pre-defined how - by birth ?

[Rohit]

Dear friends
I have posted earlier that Vedic literature Including Manu smriti should be read under the guidance of a master, otherwise it would be misunderstood and practice for selfish ends as it has happened.

Currently we have "Certification" and certified teachers for learning any subject to keep up the "Standard". All this confusion of vedic knowledge arised when such standard means where ignored.

This happens not only in Vedic tradition but everywhere. Look at chsritianity for example, the beautiful teaching sof christ had been twisted for the organization to grow.

Another example is from Buddha. What he has been qouted by rohit but severely mis-interpretted.


There is no arising of Consciousness without conditions.The one, who transcends the Consciousness of the Self, attains Nirvana, the perfect liberation.

Here the consciousness is Ego. Yes there is no arising of Consciousness without conditions, which means Ego, the "I"ness cannot arise without conditions. The fundamental
conditions is material body.

Now the "One" who transcends this consciousness (Ego) attains Nirvana, the perfect liberation or Mokasha, or salvation.

When the Ego (consciousness) that arose by conditions has been transcended what remains is only pure unconditional consciosuness. But this fact is not easily understood and so severely mis-interpretted when not done under the guidance of a guru.

This is what is done not only in Buddhist tradition but in all other traditions. This is the key foundation of all traditions of the world, which we called sanatana dharma.
Tibetian Buddhism still considered the best because they follow the guru system even now.

In all other religions there is so much confusion because of lack of Guru (s).

A person who thinks consciousness arise by conditions accepts in Fate that everything is preprogrammed like a robot.

A Robot has no free will because how it thinks, how it acts depends on its program. It cannot graps the concept of free will. It will ask what is free will?.

If some one thinks that they are conditioned (programmed) consciousness (which in spiritual language called as EGO), they cannot understand about free will.

My postings is based on "Free will". "I" am not a robot, I have free will the choice making, because I understand clearly that my Ego consciousness arises with conditions, but the "I" is that consciousness without conditions, that is Nirvana, Moksha, freedom.

The Ego does not want to be free, it wants to be in its cozy prision and never allows any one think of free will ,because if its teaches free will then it cannot keep everything under control.
Not only the contents of the above quoted post, but every communication, irrespective of the medium used by whoever communicates, are thoughts, regarding/about/on some other conditioned states, composed under a conditioned state; and then conveyed under a conditioned state.

The Truth is, there is no Consciousness whatsoever that is Unconditioned.

The Absolute Truth is, Nothing is Unconditioned.

Therefore, the following assertion holds universally and absolutely true, irrespective of everything.

There is no arising of Consciousness without conditions. The one, who transcends the Consciousness of the Self, attains Nirvana, the perfect liberation from the Vicious Spiral of Cognitive Degeneration (VSCD).

:D :) :thumbsup:

[SRS]

TCB[/b]]- The threat of outside invasion was a very real threat, that had to be dealt with on a daily basis.

- Rome fell. Greece fell. Ancient Egypt fell. Vedic India did not fall.

- However, there are some tasks whose importance goes beyond simply a few individuals. For example, the correct interpretation of a religious text.

This separation between the Buddhists and the Brahmins is the cause of the downfall of India. That is why India is populated by three hundred millions of beggars, and that is why India has been the slave of conquerors for the last thousand years.

- Swami Vivekananda, 29th September 1893 - At The Parliament of Religions

In India, during the terrible famines, thousands died from hunger, yet you Christians did nothing. You erect churches all through India, but the crying evil in the East is not religion - they have religion enough - but it is bread that the suffering millions of burning India cry out for with parched throats. They ask us for bread, but we give them stones. It is an insult to a starving people to offer them religion; it is an insult to a starving man to teach him metaphysics.

- Swami Vivekananda, 26th September 1893 - At The Parliament of Religions

Despite all assertions to the contrary, it remains a fact of history that Buddhism was not able to overtake Hinduism in India, even though the promoter of Buddhism at that time was the Buddha himself. All your denials and frustrations over this simple matter are only good for a :lol:

[Rohit]

[tscii:ee0c58340a] :lol: :lol: :lol:
TCB[/b]]Gobbledegook :arrow: gobbledegook :arrow: gobbledegook :arrow: all forms of fallacies :arrow: wish rides :arrow: VSCD :arrow: Gobbledegook :arrow: ... :lol: :lol: :lol:

:D :) :thumbsup:[/tscii:ee0c58340a]

[pradheep]

The Absolute Truth is, Nothing is Unconditioned.

what about soonyata, is it conditioned or unconditioned?

[Rohit]

The Absolute Truth is, Nothing is Unconditioned.
what about soonyata, is it conditioned or unconditioned?
What do you think, whatever conditioned state you are currently under? :lol:

:D :) :thumbsup:

[pradheep]

Dear Rohit
Its okay , I know your Ego cannot acept the fact that soonyata is unconditioned state. This is not to hurt you, yet I mention this because my Ego did not want this truth when my Guru taught this. But we both end up in laughter and he broke the ice.

I know that if you say soonyata is conditioned , then it is no more soonyata. If you say it is unconditional (which it is), then you accept the Universal Vedic Truth. You may not accept in Public but you know it, because you know you are cornered there. If you have something valid to post on soonyata, please make it, but please avoid copy pasting and posting emotional icons.

This aspect of soonyata vada was one of the points where the Buddhist fell before Adi-Sankara in debate. But these Buddhist monks had the spine to accept it.

A seed (beeja) is used as a symbolic image of the unconditioned state. It does not have any attributes of a tree. When conditioned then it springs forth to a tree. The beeja Mantra is used to transcend to this state.

The nirguna and saguna brahman represent these two states. The expressed or conditioned aspect and the unexpressed or unconditional aspect.

These two terms are told in all religions, but not very clearly explained, except in Vedic tradition.

[Rohit]

Dear Rohit
Its okay , I know your Ego cannot acept the fact that soonyata is unconditioned state. This is not to hurt you, yet I mention this because my Ego did not want this truth when my Guru taught this. But we both end up in laughter and he broke the ice.

I know that if you say soonyata is conditioned , then it is no more soonyata. If you say it is unconditional (which it is), then you accept the Universal Vedic Truth. You may not accept in Public but you know it, because you know you are cornered there. If you have something valid to post on soonyata, please make it, but please avoid copy pasting and posting emotional icons.

This aspect of soonyata vada was one of the points where the Buddhist fell before Adi-Sankara in debate. But these Buddhist monks had the spine to accept it.

A seed (beeja) is used as a symbolic image of the unconditioned state. It does not have any attributes of a tree. When conditioned then it springs forth to a tree. The beeja Mantra is used to transcend to this state.

The nirguna and saguna brahman represent these two states. The expressed or conditioned aspect and the unexpressed or unconditional aspect.

These two terms are told in all religions, but not very clearly explained, except in Vedic tradition.
I am glad that TCBs have accepted everything I have said, but as confessed and admitted in the above post, they feel extremely embarrassed to accept it openly here; and therefore, as usual, they seek refuge under superimposition and make such imbecilic, futile and fallacious attempts to hide their unprecedented defeats.

Nonetheless, I do understand their conditions of imbecilic mental turmoil; and so do all, who precisely know how frustrated these TCBs really are.

Like I have said, not only the contents of the above quoted post, but every communication, irrespective of the medium used by whoever maybe the communicator, are thoughts, regarding/about/on some other conditioned states, composed under a conditioned state; and then conveyed under a conditioned state.

The Truth is, there is no Consciousness whatsoever that is Unconditioned.

The Absolute Truth is, Nothing is Unconditioned.

Therefore, the following assertion holds universally and absolutely true, regardless of everything.

There is no arising of Consciousness without conditions. The one, who transcends the Consciousness of the Self, attains Nirvana, the perfect liberation from the Vicious Spiral of Cognitive Degeneration (VSCD).

:D :) :thumbsup:

[Rohit]

This certainly calls for an update on the TCBs' latest CD count:

Let the TCBs continue with their egocentric guesses.

Of course, the TCBs must not forget to check their account of Cognitive Degeneration (CD); currently it stands at CD = N = 965, only 35 to go before they reach their assigned target of 1000.

Let the TCBs enjoy their wish rides in the Vicious Spiral of Cognitive Degeneration (VSCD) until they succeed in realising the transcendent Ultimate Truth and Ultimate Reality.

That is the ultimate challenge the TCBs must keep facing; till then, the TCBs have no option but to keep going to START and keep incrementing their CD counts. :lol:

:D :) :thumbsup:

[SRS]

The Absolute Truth is, Nothing is Unconditioned.



Then how did the Universe arise? What were the conditions that gave rise to the singular energy which in turn led to the "Big Bang?" IMO: this is the most fundamental question. If you cannot account for this, then there is no point in saying "nothing is unconditioned."

[Rohit]

This certainly calls for a second update in a day on the TCBs' latest CD count:

To all TCBs, please Go To START, everything is explained.

If you still remain utterly incapabale of grasping that, you may continue with your egocentric guesses.

Of course, the TCBs must not forget to check their account of Cognitive Degeneration (CD); currently it stands at CD = N = 966, only 34 to go before they reach their assigned target of 1000.

Let the TCBs enjoy their wish rides in the Vicious Spiral of Cognitive Degeneration (VSCD) until they succeed in realising the transcendent Ultimate Truth and Ultimate Reality.

That is the ultimate challenge the TCBs must keep facing; till then, the TCBs have no option but to keep going to START and keep incrementing their CD counts. :lol:

:D :) :thumbsup:

[SRS]

If that indeed was the case then how can you explain the successful invasion of God knows how many foreign kings since the days of Alexander till now (i mean the defeat to China). Did the special group that was created to save the country from Invasions succeed.

The point is, the Vedic traditions were not replaced. Unlike the Western civilizations, which could not withstand the onslaught of Christianity. I also think, the arrival of Alexander the Great was not an invasion, so to speak. Greek philosophy is first-class, similar to Vedic philosophy. Alexander was also a man of great learning. The Moghul invasions were obviously terrible. The Portugese invasion was not good either. The British invasion was the worst, since they exploited caste divisions to the maximum and also implemented a full-scale religious agenda, one that is continuing to this day. They were also the ones who created artificial boundaries, and at the time of "Independence", did nothing to prevent the creation of Pakistan, forever a thorn in the side of India! Perhaps it would have been better if all the separate kingdom states had remained separate. How many places, TN, for example are still trying to secede.




Why then did we not invent the steam engine or electricity or anything of significant scientific achievement.

There was much use of advanced technology that very clearly relied on advanced science. If you consider Ramayana, for example, there is mention of evolution, and the Pushpaaka Vimana (an aircraft more advanced than any modern-day aircraft. Also, if you carefully read Gita, etc. you will find accounts of gods fighting with extremely deadly weapons. Now, you may think that the above is amusing. But not just Vedic Indians, but many other ancient civilizations had advanced technologies, for example, "Atlantis." I am always surprised why modern-day people assume thousands of years had to pass before a lice-infected European discovered electricity or decided to build an airplane. Caveman knew how to produce fire from friction; anyone seeing lightning would certainly have been aware of the existence of electricity. There is an ancient Greek story of one boy and his father flying with wings made of wax. Now you may ask, why was all this advanced technology not preserved? I do not know the answer to that question. It is only in modern times that every invention, every worthwhile idea, is passed down in a precisely linear fashion. However, even in modern times, Vedic herbs are being continuously rediscovered as solutions to life-threatening diseases which Western medicine has no solution for.



[quote]
Do you mean to say that a horse is no different from a human.

Genes are genes. I do not think that the goal of MS was to implement a full-scale eugenics program by preventing different castes from intermarrying. I think it was simply to maintain social cohesion. If all the different castes had been allowed to intermarry, then the idea of castes would have become meaningless, and the division of labor would also have had to be restructured. It would have been an entirely different social dynamic, whence the goal of the original structure was to preserve social cohesion.



Again i ask you, will you work for an organization where there is no chance for career progression. Nothing in this world is static, don't you think Manu was not intelligent enough to recogonize this. Well may be the world was fixed in the days of Manu and did not go around the sun.

I presume that you are speaking of promotion in the context of a material reward of some sort. Now, if the vast majority of people were simple farmers, who had enough and more to survive on, there was no need for excessive material reward. MS is superior to other economic systems because it takes into account every individual in the society. It gives him an occupation. Now, that occupation may be static, but having any occupation is far better than facing the prospect of starvation. What amenities does Capitalism provide for the poor fellow? He is obviously not "fit", according to this theory; therefore, his "survival" is altogether negligible. If you look at the early history of industrialization in the West, before there were labor unions, you will understand my point more clearly. Women and underage children worked 16 hours a day in such dangerous places as mines, for pennies a day. Now the situation has shifted to where large corporations will shift such work to third-world nations, to avoid labor laws and cut costs. Or they will hire illegals in the West and pay them much less than a native. What I am saying here is that Capitalism exploits the vulnerable, albeit more subtly.

[Rohit]

[tscii:1b6cba7d7d]
TCB[/b]]The point is, the Vedic traditions were not replaced.

I also think, the arrival of Alexander the Great was not an invasion, so to speak.

Gobbledegook :arrow: gobbledegook :arrow: gobbledegook :arrow: gobbledegook :arrow: fallacies :arrow: wish rides :arrow: VSCD :arrow: increased CD count :arrow: Gobbledegook :arrow: gobbledegook :arrow:............
When Alexander invaded India (326 B.C.), Magadha was perhaps the largest and the most ambitious of the then great powers of northern India. The conquest of Magadha by Chadragupta Mayurya marked the beginning of a long and chequered struggle to weld India into an empire, coextensive with its geophysical frontiers. This struggle had carried on for 2000 years, under varying leadership and inspiration, before India could emerge as one.

The first genuine attempt at political unity was made by Ashoka, who liquidated innumerable kingdoms of the north and the south to found an extensive empire.

By 250 B.C the empire of Ashoka stretched far into the present boundaries of Afghanistan; its northwest frontiers ran roughly along the Kabul – Ghazni - Kandhar line and included the entire valley of India. In the south, it extended almost up to the present site of Manglore, close to the 13th parallel. In the northeast, the empire took within its fold much of the present territories of Nepal; in the east, it extended to the boundaries of Assam with Burma.

Ashoka extended the frontiers of his domain, not equalled in the subsequent 2000 years. (- by Akbar, a Mogul King, married to a Rajput woman, Queen Jodhabai.)

Such an extensive empire could not have been built on the concept of armed might. Ashoka was a strong King who would brook no disturbance much less a revolt in his empire, but he found Dhama (as taught by Buddha) as an apt philosophy and made it the imperial principle for empire building. However, he maintained a large army and efficient administration, with delegated responsibilities and functions, with a view to consolidate imperial territory.

Reference source:
India: An Area Study
By S N Chopra, 1977
Vikas Publishing House Pvt. Ltd.

The history incontrovertibly proves that no nation/empire can be built and sustained unless it succeeds in earning the trust and respect of its people and recognises the rights of all its citizens.

Why after Ashoka, only a Mogul King Akbar succeeded in building a large Indian empire? The answer is simple; he was a secular King, who ran his empire on secular principles and by recognising equal rights of all its citizens.

Why Gandhi succeeded in uniting Indian masses during Indian struggle against British rule? The answer is again obvious; Gandhi was a secularist and did not believe in the age-old heedless segregation of the society.

Even after independence, India remains united only on the basis that Indian constitution is founded on secular principles promoted by Ashoka. The Indian national symbols and emblems clearly reflect those secular principles.

Why the twenty-four spokes Ashoka Chakra, The Wheel of Dhama, is placed right at the heart of Indian flag? Again, the answer is obvious, because it truly represents and promotes secular values ingrained in the Buddha Dhama itself.

Since then, throughout the entire history, Buddha and the legacy of his teachings have remained unchallenged at an unprecedented scale, not only in India, but also in the rest of the world.

And that is an undeniable fact.

:D :) :thumbsup:
[/tscii:1b6cba7d7d]

[dsath]

[tscii:7121bd54ba]


The point is, the Vedic traditions were not replaced. Unlike the Western civilizations, which could not withstand the onslaught of Christianity.

I get your point regarding 'tradition' but what about protecting our borders literally, saving the common man from enemy invasion. Did MS succeed in that? Or was the intention of MS to save the tradition and only the tradition from being lost.


I also think, the arrival of Alexander the Great was not an invasion, so to speak. Greek philosophy is first-class, similar to Vedic philosophy. Alexander was also a man of great learning. The Moghul invasions were obviously terrible. The Portugese invasion was not good either. The British invasion was the worst, since they exploited caste divisions to the maximum and also implemented a full-scale religious agenda, one that is continuing to this day. They were also the ones who created artificial boundaries, and at the time of "Independence", did nothing to prevent the creation of Pakistan, forever a thorn in the side of India! Perhaps it would have been better if all the separate kingdom states had remained separate. How many places, TN, for example are still trying to secede.

All invasions were equally bad. Indian subcontinent was lucky that Alexander's troops were tired and desperate to go back home. If you read the actual history of Alexander's invasions, you will know that he was no better a devil than any other invader. Actually i don't think of the Mogul invasion as invasion at all. Because all Alexander and the British wanted to do was plunder the subcontinent’s wealth and go back to their native land. But the Moguls made the subcontinent their home and enriched the culture and tradition.
To be quite honest i don't know why we are debating, which of the invasions were better. We have moved from debating the best form of slavery to the best invasion. What next?




There was much use of advanced technology that very clearly relied on advanced science. If you consider Ramayana, for example, there is mention of evolution, and the Pushpaaka Vimana (an aircraft more advanced than any modern-day aircraft. Also, if you carefully read Gita, etc. you will find accounts of gods fighting with extremely deadly weapons. Now, you may think that the above is amusing. But not just Vedic Indians, but many other ancient civilizations had advanced technologies, for example, "Atlantis." I am always surprised why modern-day people assume thousands of years had to pass before a lice-infected European discovered electricity or decided to build an airplane. Caveman knew how to produce fire from friction; anyone seeing lightning would certainly have been aware of the existence of electricity. There is an ancient Greek story of one boy and his father flying with wings made of wax. Now you may ask, why was all this advanced technology not preserved? I do not know the answer to that question. It is only in modern times that every invention, every worthwhile idea, is passed down in a precisely linear fashion. However, even in modern times, Vedic herbs are being continuously rediscovered as solutions to life-threatening diseases which Western medicine has no solution for.


If anyone wants to know the meaning of word 'Vague' with example then your words above would be a good example.



Genes are genes. I do not think that the goal of MS was to implement a full-scale eugenics program by preventing different castes from intermarrying. I think it was simply to maintain social cohesion. If all the different castes had been allowed to intermarry, then the idea of castes would have become meaningless, and the division of labor would also have had to be restructured. It would have been an entirely different social dynamic, whence the goal of the original structure was to preserve social cohesion.

I cannot accept the statement. Genes are genes - but comparing a horse to a Human, all for supporting a discriminating system is disgusting(to put it very mildly).


I presume that you are speaking of promotion in the context of a material reward of some sort.

It is not only material reward, there is something also called job satisfaction, pride in the work you do, dignity and above all self worth. Any system that has to be explained in reference to a race horse cannot be a good one.


Now, if the vast majority of people were simple farmers, who had enough and more to survive on, there was no need for excessive material reward. MS is superior to other economic systems because it takes into account every individual in the society. It gives him an occupation. Now, that occupation may be static, but having any occupation is far better than facing the prospect of starvation.

Is it? Have you gone through that phase in your life? How can you be so sure.
There are millions who have gone thru the system who testify otherwise. I can accept your statement if all those who were accounted for had the same standards of food, clothing and shelter. But that was not the case. How could a society achieve social cohesion under the circumstances, if that was the motive? If there was a famine or a plague or a flood who do you think will be the first affected? I am keen to know your stretches of imagination.



What amenities does Capitalism provide for the poor fellow? He is obviously not "fit", according to this theory; therefore, his "survival" is altogether negligible. If you look at the early history of industrialization in the West, before there were labor unions, you will understand my point more clearly. Women and underage children worked 16 hours a day in such dangerous places as mines, for pennies a day. Now the situation has shifted to where large corporations will shift such work to third-world nations, to avoid labor laws and cut costs. Or they will hire illegals in the West and pay them much less than a native. What I am saying here is that Capitalism exploits the vulnerable, albeit more subtly.
Can you please explain why you feel the necessity to always compare MS with the Western system. Well at least in the days of Manu there was no immediate threat of capitalism or did Manu foresee the effects of capitalism with a Vedic scientific discovery or may be he traveled to ancient Greece in his flying m/c.[/tscii:7121bd54ba]

[SRS]

[tscii:e15fd1bb81]

I get your point regarding 'tradition' but what about protecting our borders literally, saving the common man from enemy invasion. Did MS succeed in that? Or was the intention of MS to save the tradition and only the tradition from being lost.

The greatness of a civilization does not lie in the strength of its army. Otherwise why did Ashoka renounce violence? A far more revealing measure is the ability of the civilization to adopt, absorb, and still retain a semblance of its original identity in the face of external pressure.




All invasions were equally bad. Indian subcontinent was lucky that Alexander's troops were tired and desperate to go back home. If you read the actual history of Alexander's invasions, you will know that he was no better a devil than any other invader. Actually i don't think of the Mogul invasion as invasion at all. Because all Alexander and the British wanted to do was plunder the subcontinent’s wealth and go back to their native land. But the Moguls made the subcontinent their home and enriched the culture and tradition.

That is utter rubbish.

Before Alexander crossed into India in 327 B.C.E., he felt the necessity to trim down the army that he had led through Persia to accommodate the different climate and terrain that they would face. He burned all of the baggage wagons of Persian booty that hindered his mobility, and he dismissed a large number of his soldiers, reshaping his army with several thousand Persian cavalrymen.
The greatest of Alexander's battles in India was against Porus, one of the most powerful Indian leaders, at the river Hydaspes in July 326 B.C.E. Alexander's army crossed the heavily defended river in dramatic fashion during a violent thunderstorm to meet Porus' forces. The Indians were defeated in a fierce battle, even though they fought with elephants, which the Macedonians had never before seen. Alexander captured Porus and, like the other local rulers he had defeated, allowed him to continue to govern his territory. Alexander even subdued an independent province and granted it to Porus as a gift.

One tragic note about this battle is that Alexander's horse, Bucephalus, was wounded and died. Alexander had ridden Bucephalus into every one of his battles in Greece and Asia, so when it died, he was grief-stricken and founded a city in his horse's name.

Alexander's next goal was to reach the Ganges River, which was actually 250 miles away, because he thought that it flowed into the outer Ocean. His troops, however, had heard tales of the powerful Indian tribes that lived on the Ganges and remembered the difficulty of the battle with Porus, so they refused to go any farther east. Alexander was extremely disappointed, but he accepted their decision and persuaded them to travel south down the rivers Hydaspes and Indus so that they might reach the Ocean on the southern edge of the world. The army rode down the rivers on the rivers on rafts and stopped to attack and subdue villages along the way. During this trip, Alexander sought out the Indian philosophers, the Brahmins, who were famous for their wisdom, and debated them on philosophical issues. He became legendary for centuries in India for being both a wise philosopher and a fearless conqueror.

One of the villages in which the army stopped belonged to the Malli, who were said to be one of the most warlike of the Indian tribes. Alexander was wounded several times in this attack, most seriously when an arrow pierced his breastplate and his ribcage. The Macedonian officers rescued him in a narrow escape from the village.

Alexander and his army reached the mouth of the Indus in July 325 B.C.E. and turned westward for home. [b]

http://wso.williams.edu/~junterek/india.htm




To be quite honest i don't know why we are debating, which of the invasions were better. We have moved from debating the best form of slavery to the best invasion. What next?

If you do not know the difference between slavery and casteism, that is not my fault.






If anyone wants to know the meaning of word 'Vague' with example then your words above would be a good example.


Go back and repeat the primary school education. Specifically, the subjects of chemistry, physics, and world history.




I cannot accept the statement. Genes are genes - but comparing a horse to a Human, all for supporting a discriminating system is disgusting(to put it very mildly).



If the discrimination was that bad, MS would not have lasted as long as it did. Even today, MS is there, despite attempts by the Indian government to do away with it. What you have failed to do is offer a convincing explanation as to [b] why MS has lasted over 5000 years.



It is not only material reward, there is something also called job satisfaction, pride in the work you do, dignity and above all self worth.

Kindly review the entire dirty history of Western industrialization, without which Capitalism would be null and nought, and then come back here and post this rubbish about "job satisfaction," etc. Don't forget to mention the millions of native inhabitants exterminated (whose land was stolen in the process) in the process. Hopefully, those living on the stolen land today are experiencing high levels of job satisfaction. Enough satisfaction that they are able to criticize the peaceful economic system of MS which lasted over 5000 years (and still lasts).

There are millions who have gone thru the system who testify otherwise. I can accept your statement if all those who were accounted for had the same standards of food, clothing and shelter. But that was not the case. How could a society achieve social cohesion under the circumstances, if that was the motive? If there was a famine or a plague or a flood who do you think will be the first affected? I am keen to know your stretches of imagination.

Of course, when a missionary comes along and offers the poor material rewards, many of the poor will start "testifying otherwise." Now back up the missionaries with a government promoting a similar agenda, and the number of poor who start "testifying otherwise" will increase exponentially.


Can you please explain why you feel the necessity to always compare MS with the Western system.

Do you feel insecure making such a comparison?[/tscii:e15fd1bb81]

[thamizhvaanan]

Enough satisfaction that they are able to criticize the peaceful economic system of MS which lasted over 5000 years (and still lasts). :rotfl: :rotfl:

I thot Hitler was the last of his species :lol2:

[thamizhvaanan]

Mr.SRS ... please dont assume that since most of us here arent replying, we are agreeing with you. Your posts are so ludicrous that most of us here dont even bother replying.

dsath.. great points :clap: but for a futile cause :lol2: let it go :)

[SRS]

- It is a fact that more than 70 per cent of the ancient Hindu Rishis, or enlightened masters of India, belonged to the lower castes.

- Valmiki and Vyasa , who wrote the epics Ramayana and Mahabharatha respectively, belonged to the lower castes.

- In ancient times , one's caste was determined by one's temperament, talents and inclinations. Caste was not a barrier to the lower caste people, who rose to the level of the upper castes through their talents.

- Kshatriyas like the Buddha and Vishwamitra , became Brahmins or men of spiritual nature and Brahmins like Parashurama became Kshatriya.

- This is also the reason why shudras or low caste people like Valmiki , Vyasa, Vasishtha, Narada, Drona, Karna ,Thiruvalluvar were raised to the position of a Brahmin or Kshatriya , in virtue or their superior learning or valour.

- Much more of this information can be found in Sri Sri Ravi Shankar's book "Heritage of the dalits".Shankaracharya and others , were the great caste-makers. They would sometimes get hordes of Baluchis and at once make them Kshatriyas, and also get hordes of fishermen and make them Brahmins forthwith.

- It was with the advent of the foreign invasions in India, that the caste system became rigid, and migration of people to different castes were stopped. Even then, enlightened masters from the lower castes such as Kabir, Ravi Das, Sri Narayana guru were revered by the upper castes as well. When India gained independence due to the efforts of Hindus like Gandhi, perfect equality was thrust upon the masses of India , no matter to what caste one belonged to, thus reestablishing and continuing the ancient tradition of India.

[SRS]

Mr.SRS ... please dont assume that since most of us here arent replying, we are agreeing with you. Your posts are so ludicrous that most of us here dont even bother replying.


Do you think I care for your replies? Go back to playing with your hamster.

[thamizhvaanan]

somebody replied coz he didnt care :lol2:

:yessir:

[Raghu]

ahaa, what is going on here??

any way, Fate is a form of your Karma, Fate is the karma of your past life activities.

so what is the issue here?, sorry, am I not understanding the topic here?

:confused2:

[Shakthiprabha.]

Raghu,

You are the ONLY ONE,
who replied TO THE TOPIC,
who replied precisely what u feel,
without creating confusion to urself and others.

so cheers.!!



:D hey ppl I am just joking and lightening the mood here.

plz continue.

I am happy atleast RAGHU IS VERY CLEAR about his views.

Not all are like SP, absolute bundle of confused chaotic MESS she is! :lol:

[joe]

:confused2: :roll: :confused2:

[Shakthiprabha.]

joe,

:lol: :shhh:

[Rohit]

[tscii:06eda3ca17]
ahaa, what is going on here??

so what is the issue here?, sorry, am I not understanding the topic here?

:confused2:
Hi Raghu! What a surprise! How are you these days?

Glad to see you wondering off from your nesting place, get lost; and suddenly pop-up here in the jungle of karma.

Allow me to offer you some friendly counselling.

You don’t have to get so confused all over again; not here, where getting Terribly Confused while confusing others like you is the name of the game. If you are unable to understand "what is going on here" proves the sheer effectiveness and success of the game.

Having said that, if you still remain confused about the nature of this confusing game, then rest assured, it is nothing but your fate; and therefore, scratching your head is not going to help you, I am afraid. :) :thumbsup:
[/tscii:06eda3ca17]

[Rohit]

The Indian Miracle?

Channel 4 - Broadcast: Monday 30 April 2007 08:00 PM

Underneath the glittering surface of India's economic boom lie the ugly realties of modern day India: mass suicide by debt-ridden farmers, a rise in Hindu nationalism, discrimination against Muslims and a caste system which condemns millions to a life of servitude.

But in rural India, where more than three-quarters of the population live, Guru-Murthy discovers the story could not be more different. He meets some of the thousands of widows of farmers who have committed suicide after being driven to despair by debt. More than seven hundred million people depend on farming to make a living but the cost of buying tractors, fertilisers and irrigation pumps for small farmers has left some in debt and with no way out.

To remove your confusions, please click the link below!

http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/dispatches/dispatches+the+indian+miracle/472122

[Rohit]

TCB[/b]]
Can you please explain why you feel the necessity to always compare MS with the Western system.
Do you feel insecure making such a comparison?
In fact, the above response from the poor TCB clearly indicates that the reverse is true. The poor TCBs must be feeling terribly insecure under the sheer pressure of globalisation where superrich industrialists, business tycoons, businessmen, scientists, economists, accountants, doctors, lawyers, technologists, engineers, and suck like nonreligious professions dominate the world. :lol: :lol: :lol:

:D :) :thumbsup:

[SRS]

The Veda _ ngas, the auxiliary sciences of the Veda, consist of phonetics, ritual, grammar, etymology, meters, and astronomy. But at the same time there are extensive references to a variety of occupations that include shipwork, medicine, agriculture, metalworking, weaving, animal husbandry amongst others that would have been based on systematic study or, in 4other words, the use of corresponding sciences. There is frequent mention of bhis.aj, physician, in the R.gveda.

Atharvaveda 10.2 describes the anatomy of the human body in detail and with good accuracy. Clearly the Veda _ ngas do not exhaust the sciences of the Vedic times.Certainly sciences related to the human body, plants, metals, animals existed.

Why were not these sciences listed amongst the Vedangas? Because the Veda and its auxiliary sciences deal primarily with the overarching science of the equivalences between the astronomical, terrestrial, and the psychological.

From the perspective of the ancient Indians, with their emphasis on time bound rituals and the calendar, it is easy to see that many of the biological periods would have been discovered by them. This would include the menstrual cycle and its connection with the motions of the moon, the life cycles of various plants, and the semimonthly estrus cycle of sheep, the three-week cycles of cattle and pigs, and the six-month cycle of dogs.

The Vedic system is based on the theory of the equivalence between the adhidaivika, the adhibhautika, and the adhyatmika. These equivalences were represented in terms of the designs of the Vedic altars. This is the reason the Vedic gods could represent either the stars and the planets as well as the psycho-physiological centers within the body, or even the bricks in the altar. The correct interpretation can only be obtained from the context. As description of the psycho-physiological structure, Vedic knowledge could be of relevance to the emerging science of consciousness. New theories propose that consciousness is characterized by 40 cycles per second oscillations inside the brain. But oscillations in themselves do not explain how consciousness arises and even if this theory is correct, the oscillations may just be a result rather than the cause. Oscillations are in later tantras represented as sakti or as spanda. The Vedic view of consciousness goes beyond the notion of spanda and it represents a unity. This is why Vedic ideas find rich resonance in quantum theory which is also a theory of wholes.21

- Dr. Subhash Kak

[Rohit]

TCB[/b]]The Veda _ ngas, the auxiliary sciences of the Veda, consist of phonetics, ritual, grammar, etymology, meters, and astronomy. But at the same time there are extensive references to a variety of occupations that include shipwork, medicine, agriculture, metalworking, weaving, animal husbandry amongst others that would have been based on systematic study or, in 4other words, the use of corresponding sciences. There is frequent mention of bhis.aj, physician, in the R.gveda.

Atharvaveda 10.2 describes the anatomy of the human body in detail and with good accuracy. Clearly the Veda _ ngas do not exhaust the sciences of the Vedic times.Certainly sciences related to the human body, plants, metals, animals existed.

Why were not these sciences listed amongst the Vedangas? Because the Veda and its auxiliary sciences deal primarily with the overarching science of the equivalences between the astronomical, terrestrial, and the psychological.

From the perspective of the ancient Indians, with their emphasis on time bound rituals and the calendar, it is easy to see that many of the biological periods would have been discovered by them. This would include the menstrual cycle and its connection with the motions of the moon, the life cycles of various plants, and the semimonthly estrus cycle of sheep, the three-week cycles of cattle and pigs, and the six-month cycle of dogs.

The Vedic system is based on the theory of the equivalence between the adhidaivika, the adhibhautika, and the adhyatmika. These equivalences were represented in terms of the designs of the Vedic altars. This is the reason the Vedic gods could represent either the stars and the planets as well as the psycho-physiological centers within the body, or even the bricks in the altar. The correct interpretation can only be obtained from the context. As description of the psycho-physiological structure, Vedic knowledge could be of relevance to the emerging science of consciousness. New theories propose that consciousness is characterized by 40 cycles per second oscillations inside the brain. But oscillations in themselves do not explain how consciousness arises and even if this theory is correct, the oscillations may just be a result rather than the cause. Oscillations are in later tantras represented as sakti or as spanda. The Vedic view of consciousness goes beyond the notion of spanda and it represents a unity. This is why Vedic ideas find rich resonance in quantum theory which is also a theory of wholes.21

- Dr. Subhash Kak
Again, not only the contents of the above quoted post, but every communication, irrespective of the medium used by whoever maybe the communicator, are thoughts, regarding/about/on some other conditioned states, composed under a conditioned state; and then conveyed under a conditioned state.

The Truth is, there is no Consciousness whatsoever that is Unconditioned.

The Absolute Truth is, Nothing is Unconditioned.

Therefore, the following assertion holds universally and absolutely true, regardless of everything.

There is no arising of Consciousness without conditions. The one, who transcends the Consciousness of the Self, attains Nirvana, the perfect liberation from the Vicious Spiral of Cognitive Degeneration (VSCD).

Therefore, it is time for an update on TCBs' latest score of their Cognitive Degeneration (CD); currently it stands at CD = N = 971, only 29 to go before they reach their assigned target of 1000. :lol:

:D :) :thumbsup:

[goodsense]

[tscii:b065612c4c]I recently learnt from higher knowledge that “Karma” is an embodiment of our past deeds which are compacted as seeds in the spermatozoa at the time of fertilization of the ovum. After birth, the baby starts to form the ego which it picks up from this world or the influences of this world. It is this ego that is then transcended into new Karma. Hope I clearly understood the last bit in transcribing it here. :wink: :P [/tscii:b065612c4c]

[goodsense]

Well I see the ovum as the nurturing vessel here, just the way the soil nurtures the seed to grow and develop. But there are other external influences such as the weather and other external conditions upon which the soil and the ovum depends. Therefore how the seed grows and develop does not only reflect on the karma, but these other conditions. How do you determine which factors are responsible?

My other question is, are all good seeds from good men? According to a recent posting from Sudhamma I this thread, I would say no. Yet we have saying like, you know a fruit by its deeds. I guess we are not talking here about either parent.

[goodsense]

It looks like people are feeling to shy to respond. The learned spiritual teacher showed no embarassment when he was talking on TV about it, so why should I or any one else feel shy?

[Rohit]

Human Anatomy: Fertilization, Embryonic Development, Sperm, Egg, Fetal Stages-

http://www.photovault.com/Link/Health/Anatomy/iFertilization/HAIVolume01.html

[Shakthiprabha.]

I have a question.

If re-incarnation as popularly believed is THE ANCESTRAL gene only, (i.e. ur next birth is ur kid)

then...

all those who do not have kids... what is their status quo? On their dissolution, what happens to them?

[Raghu]

Raghu,

You are the ONLY ONE,
who replied TO THE TOPIC,
who replied precisely what u feel,
without creating confusion to urself and others.

so cheers.!!



:D hey ppl I am just joking and lightening the mood here.

plz continue.

I am happy atleast RAGHU IS VERY CLEAR about his views.

Not all are like SP, absolute bundle of confused chaotic MESS she is! :lol:

SP akka

enna Nakala?? :x

[Raghu]

I have a question.

If re-incarnation as popularly believed is THE ANCESTRAL gene only, (i.e. ur next birth is ur kid)

then...

all those who do not have kids... what is their status quo? On their dissolution, what happens to them?

SP akka,

Please elaborate a bit more? I dont quite understand what you have written abaove, esp the highlighted ones!

[Shakthiprabha.]

Raghu,

That was a GENUINE praise :D

elaaraiyum vittu ennai en pidikareenga :evil:

Regarding ur next question,

some beliefs hold that, therez nothing called reincarnation, except genetically thro children (i.e. ur genes passed on to kids, who may fulfil ur dreams etc)

Ive heard such t heory

[Raghu]

some beliefs hold that, therez nothing called reincarnation, except genetically thro children (i.e. ur genes passed on to kids, who may fulfil ur dreams etc)

Ive heard such theory


I will post it 2morrow :)

[Shakthiprabha.]

:thumbsup:

[kannannn]

some beliefs hold that, therez nothing called reincarnation, except genetically thro children (i.e. ur genes passed on to kids, who may fulfil ur dreams etc)

Ive heard such t heory
Let me guess what's next: the theory of reincarnation explained eons ago what science has just discovered - the existence of genes and passage of genetic characteristics :roll:

[Shakthiprabha.]

kaNNan,

:lol:

[Rohit]

some beliefs hold that, therez nothing called reincarnation, except genetically thro children (i.e. ur genes passed on to kids, who may fulfil ur dreams etc)

However, I DO NOT AGREE, these DISCRIMINATION HAS TO BE BASED ON BIRTH It should be based on TALENT or AREA OF SPECIALISATION

May be it was assumed, the skills would be passed on easily from a DAD to his SON

TCB[/b]]When you want to breed a certain kind of horse to win the race, and you know which genes are the most favourable, why go with unfavourable ones?

TCB[/b]]Genes are genes.

TCB[/b]]As I said earlier, however, MS did not waste time with experimentation. When you want to breed a certain kind of horse to win the race, and you know which genes are the most favourable, why go with unfavourable ones?
Genetic transmission of traits is one aspect that is partially responsible for whatever resemblance of traits are observed between parents and their offspring; while environmental factors, though there are many of them, are equally important aspects responsible for the overall cognitive and personality development of individuals.

Since, the same scenario applies to each and every parents, it forms a vicious circle. Those who managed to use situations of earlier times in their advantage by exploiting existing environmental conditions, gained upper hand over those who were either not so predisposed or not in the profession to do so.

And since this scenario also applies to all areas of anthropologic importance, it forms yet another vicious circle, as we observe across the whole world under the phenomena of globalisation.

That is why both "nature" and "nurture" are considered equally important while measuring the overall development and success of an individual, a society or a nation. If either one of them is given more importance than the other, it biases the whole situation and renders all conclusions based on that, completely false.

:D :) :thumbsup:

[Jabroni]

Malaysia's Islamic officials seize baby from mother who sought a Hindu life

The Associated Press
Published: April 6, 2007

KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia: Islamic authorities took away the baby of a Muslim woman who is living as a Hindu in defiance of the law in the latest case of religious conflict straining ties in multiethnic Malaysia, officials said Friday.

Revathi Masoosai's 15-month-old daughter was taken by the Islamic Religious Department in southern Malacca state on March 26 and handed to Revathi's Muslim mother, said department enforcement officer Mohamad Imran Ahmad.

"The baby's grandmother has custody of her for now," Mohamad Imran told The Associated Press.

Revathi, an ethnic Indian, is being held in a rehabilitation center run by Islamic authorities for her religious transgression. The baby was with Revathi's husband when she was seized. He has filed a police complaint, but it was not clear if he plans to take the case to court.

Meanwhile, the baby will stay with her grandmother. "When the baby's mother is released, she can try to regain custody if she wants to," said Mohamad Imran without elaborating.

The case, which was made public by the opposition Democratic Action Party on Thursday, highlights an increasing number of spats affecting the religious and family rights of the ethnic Indian and Chinese minorities.

Indians, who form about 8 percent of Malaysia's 26 million people, are mostly Hindus while some are Christians, Muslims and Sikhs.

Activists say a string of recent disputes have ended in favor of Muslims - who comprise nearly 60 percent of the population - and strained ethnic relations in this multicultural nation, which has enjoyed racial peace for nearly four decades.

Revathi, 29, was born to Indian Muslim parents who gave her a Muslim name, Siti Fatimah. However, Revathi claims she was raised as a Hindu by her grandmother and changed her name in 2001, said Chong Eng, an opposition member of Parliament.

Revathi married Suresh Veerappan in 2004 according to Hindu rites. The marriage has not been legally registered because Suresh would have had to convert to Islam first.

Revathi's official identification documents state she is Muslim because Malaysians who are born as Muslims cannot legally convert.

The Islamic Religious Department apparently learned of Revathi's case after she gave birth. Revathi was detained in January and taken to a rehabilitation center in central Malaysia where she is expected to be held until at least mid-April to undergo religious counseling, Chong said.

"Separating mother and child ... is inhuman," Chong said in a statement.

A custody battle would be complicated because Islamic officials and Revathi's mother would likely seek to try the case in Islamic Shariah court, which handles religious, family and personal law disputes involving Muslims.

Non-Muslims turn to civil courts to settle these issues. But the secular courts have generally avoided taking a position in such disputes between Muslims and non-Muslims, leaving it to the Shariah system, where verdicts have often favored Muslims.

LATEST DEVELOPMENT

Revathi Masoosai/Siti Fatimah's 100-day detention for Islamic rehabilitation which ends today has been extended by the Malacca Syariah Court for another 80 days.

Revathi's husband, Suresh Veerapan was informed by Malacca Syariah Court officials that her detention at the Faith Rehabilitation Centre in Ulu Yam has been extended by 80 days.

When Suresh Veerapan asked for the reasons, an official told him "she did not cooperate during the 100-day stay" which ended today.

His demand for a copy of the court order on the extension was denied. Revathi was not brought to the Malacca court from Ulu Yam in Selangor. Dozens of relatives were waiting to see her.

Revathi, who suffers from asthma, had told her husband last week that she was not taken to a doctor although she was sick.

It is sad and tragic that this heart-rending tale of the father, mother and baby girl being forcibly separated into three different locations by law and religion had not been resolved today, despite a memorandum by DAP MPs to the Prime Minister, Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi last week.

[Jabroni]

Since I don't know 'reporting'

I'll publicly ask the moderators the reasons behind letting Rohit abusing fellow hubbers. You can tell us please.

Rohit must be humuliated and kicked out of here.

50% of what he writes is about his thoughts on the fellow hubbers.

[SRS]

Just a note: the above discussion I had with Dsath was rather pointless, since the original varna system did not prevent social mobility, as per the Vedas. The rigidness came only after foreign invasions. I regret any inconsistency.

[Sudhaama]

.
VARNA SYSTEM Not stipulated by Vedas or any Hindu-Gospels.


Just a note: the above discussion I had with Dsath was rather pointless, since the original varna system did not prevent social mobility, as per the Vedas. The rigidness came only after foreign invasions. I regret any inconsistency.

Repeatedly I am refuting such a false notion by some people..

.. that it was the Hindu-Religion which advocated Varna-System..

... UNFAIRLY creating a Social discrimination on the basis of birth.

I had posted detailed justification... as discussed by Dr Ambedkar and Rajaji...


.
DESTINY by SOCIAL-DESCRIMINATION imposed.!!

Here is a WORTHY MESSAGE on this interesting topic of UNENDING CONTROVERSY..

.. leading to everlasting UNDUE Blames and Counter-blames..

.. amongst the Hindus of contemporary age.

This Valid-News & True-Message can radically put an end to this controversy.

At one stage Dr Ambedkar got frustrated with Hinduism and embraced Budhism suddenly.

He publicly announced his decision justifying that...

... the Hinduism is a Biased-Religion of Caste-divisions by birth...

...resulting in unfair Social-discrimination and INHUMAN-OPPRESSION.

The news was widely published in the then Newspapers.

Then Mr. Rajaji wrote to Dr.Ambedkar stating...

..."On one or the other contentions of your own.. if you believe Budhism is better for you than the Vedic Religion, the so called Hinduism .

...and so if you prefer to embrace Budhism... well, I have nothing to comment on it...

...since it is your PERSONAL AFFAIR based on individuals right on likes and options.

But I cannot be a silent spectator if and when you publicly attribute UNDUE BLAMES and BASELESS ALLEGATIONS..

...on the sacred VEDIC-SCRIPTURES of this Great Religion of UNIVERSAL-OUTLOOK.

In brief...Rajaji defended..

(1) Manu-Smrithi is NOT AT ALL A RELIGIOUS SCRIPTURE nor an AUTHENTIC SACRED DOCUMENT to form as the basis for enacting the Social Laws.

... It was a Man-made COMPILATIONS from amongst different sections of the people of the respective countries.

Consequently the Manu-Smrithis varied from country to country then.

(2) The Names Brahmana, Vaisya, Kshathriya, Vaisya etc mentioned in the Vedic-Scriptures do not denote the Caste-names..

.. but the Names by POSITIVE-SENSE... on INDIVIDUALS..

...based on the QUALITIES of the Souls BY BIRTH..irrespective of Parentage.

Accordingly by Vedic-sense Lord Parasurama was a Kshathriya although born to the so-named Brahmin parents...

...while Krishna was a Brahmin although born as Kshathriya and brought up by Soodra-parents.

Even amongst the brothers of one and the same Parentage of one family, we can find such wide disparity.

For example, Ravana was a Kshathriya... by the Vedic-sense....

... while Kumbakarna was a Soodhra .. and Vibheeshana a Brahmin... (Saathvic.)..

..while the Parentage was the same... their Father a so called Brahmin.

Those Positive Nomenclatures were subsequently adopted by the then Kings..

.. MISUSING to name the Segments of the people on the basis of birth..

.. suiting to the Rulers' AUTOCRACY and Perversions...

... mischivously and ignorantly based on MIS-INTERPRETATIONS of Sacred Terminologies

(3) All over the Vedic Scriptures we can categorically find the UNIVERSAL- OUTLOOK of Large-Heartedness...

... affirming the SOCIAL-EQUALITY...coupled with HUMANE-LOVE amongst the Mankind...

...as well as towards other creatures as well.

So there cannot exist any INCONSISTENCY nor any SELF CONTRADICTIONS anywhere in the Gospel...

...propounded IMPARTIALLY by God towards the WELFARE OF OVERALL HUMANITY...

...intended for UNIFIED ADVANCEMENT OF MANKIND...ensuring Peace and Social-Harmony..GLOBALLY

Then Dr Ambedkar raised several doubts and counter-arguments..

Some of the basic Questions raised by Dr.Ambedkar were as follows...

(1) How and Why the Social-segmentation Code by name MANU-SMRITHI cropped up in India... during the period of Kings Monarchy?

(2) Does such a DISCRIMINATIVE Social-strata by birth is authorised by Vedic-Scriptures? If not how it was authenticated in the name of Religion?

(3) Has such a Divisive-basis of BIASED TREATMENT coupled with UNEQUAL LAWS..done anything GOOD...

...either to the Society or even the Kings who supported it?...

...even during those periods...while those Laws were in vogue?

All the questions and counter-arguments from Dr Ambedkar were duly answered through volley of correspondence by Rajaji...

...based on Ramanujacharyas earlier descriptive clarifications...

.. on the unfair blames and MIS-INTERPRETATIONS... of the Vedic-Scriptures..

.. to avail undue advantage of a Gospel.. by the then Kings.

Finally Dr Ambedkar got FULLY CONVINCED..

.. with regrets to Rajaji and advised his followers accordingly.
.

Ultimately Dr Ambedkar got fully convinced that it was the MAN-MADE exploitation by the yester-years Kings..

..to justify and authenticate their autocracy and tyrannical ill-treatment of the enslaved sections of people..

..preventing overall social-unity... or revolt against the rulers.

They took shelter by twisting the meanings of the Quality-names of Soodra and Kshathriya in Vedic scriptures...

... by adopting the same names for the segments of people created by them on the basis of birth.

Dr Ambedkar was convinced also on the Geetha terminology...

.. CHATHUR-VARNAM... Mayaa srishtam (Four-Varnas are my creation)...

..meaning four segments of people based on qualities... are the creation by God...

.. so as to conduct different sorts of world activities supported by their apt Propensities and Mental-attitudes.

So please do not bring in Hindu Religion here.. blaming for such a social-injustice rendered by the Kings...

... taking shelter on the Vedic terminologies...

.. conveying HEALTHY SENSE altogether... towards SOCIAL EQUANIMITY.
.
.

[Rohit]

[tscii:73b1de6b20]
ego[/color]centric pradheep]Karma, and responsibility to action starts the moment we think "I". The moment we think "I" then we become responsible for the actions.

All living beings are manifestation of the Ego. Ego means "I", the physical body and so different from rest of it.

gene[/color]centric SRS]When you want to breed a certain kind of horse to win the race, and you know which genes are the most favourable, why go with unfavourable ones?

gene[/color]centric SRS also]I regret any inconsistency.

multiple souls[/color]centric Sudhaama]Repeatedly I am refuting such a false notion by some people..

.....that it was the Hindu-Religion which advocated Varna-System..

The Names Brahmana, Vaisya, Kshathriya, Vaisya etc mentioned in the Vedic-Scriptures do not denote the Caste-names.....

.....but the Names by POSITIVE-SENSE... on INDIVIDUALS

.....based on the QUALITIES of the Souls BY BIRTH..irrespective of Parentage.

.....CHATHUR-VARNAM... Mayaa srishtam (Four-Varnas are my creation).....meaning four segments of people based on qualities... are the creation by God...
The above quoted posts evidently show that there exist logically explosive, mutually contradicting beliefs among the egocentric, genecentric and multiple-soulscentric dualists.

It is high time that each of these ego:gene:soulscentrics now come up with the precise accounts for their conditioned mental states in a clear and unambiguous way.

Else,

They have no option but to confirm the fact of building their Castle In The Air by utter reliance on absurdities, ambiguities, blunders, circularities, mutual clashes, conflicts, contradictions, denials, disagreements, discrepancies, fallacies, haziness, incongruities, misleading notions, mythical allegories, paradoxes, uncertainties, variations, wish rides etc.

Good luck!

:D :) :thumbsup:[/tscii:73b1de6b20]

[goodsense]

http://www.panoramatv.ca/panorama/panorama.php?video=060%20Pravachan%20-%20Pt.%20Jairam%20%28part%201%29%20%28May%2005%29/video.wmv :thumbsup:

[Raghu]

sudhama sir,

welcome back :bluejump: :redjump: :boo:

[Sudhaama]

[tscii:fa4d036ede]

- Fate an UNSURMOUNTABLE MIGHT to be YIELDED to?


sudhama sir,

welcome back :bluejump: :redjump: :boo:

Yes, My dear Raghu,

I duly honour and appreciate your Healthy Spirits of Affection and Search for.... Additional Knowledge.

All along our Indian Epics (Puranas)... Sasthras and Literatures...

...especially TAMIL-LITERATURES...

...the force of INEVITABLE FATE superseding our Combating Counter-endeavour... has been stressed.

But TAMIL-LITERATURES and GEETHA ALONE... render the ULTIMATE ANSWER... Positively.!!!

(1) Thirukkuralh at one context states... [.Tamil : MURASU ANJAL Font - TSCII. ]

°¨ÆÔõ ¯ôÀì¸õ ¸¡ñÀ÷
¯¨ÄÅ¢ýÈ¢ ¾¡Æ¡Ð ¯»üÚÀÅ÷

Oozhaiyum uppakkam Kaanhbar ulhaivu-inrhi
thaazhaadhu ungjatrubavar...

Meaning : The person who persistently endeavour boldly and untiringly CONFRONT...

...can DRIVE OUT ...EVEN HIS FATE... [ultimately] DEFEATING it.!!!

But at another context... the same Valhlhuvar says...

°Æ¢ü ¦ÀÕÅÄ¢ ¡×Ç? Áü¦È¡ýÚ
ÝÆ¢Ûõ ¾¡§É ÓóÐÚõ.!!

Oozhirh PERU-VALI Yaavulha?
Matrondru soozhinum THAANAE mundhurhum.!!

Meaning.. "Which is / are the Greater-power(s) which can... over-power / supersede / dominate... over FATE?..

... EVEN if any other mightier power counters it... by forming as a Fort for protection...

... even then THE FATE ALONE WILL LEAD...

(2) Auvaiyaar says...

þð¼Ó¼ý ±ý ¾¨Ä¢ø þýÉÀÊ ±ýÚ ±Ø¾¢Å¢ð¼ º¢ÅÛõ ¦ºòÐ-Ţ𼡧ɡ?

Ittamudan yen Thalaiyil innabadi yenrhu-ezhudhi-vitta
SIVANUM seththu vittaanoa?

Meaning:-- Even the GOD SIVA... who had already written my Destiny on my head as per His own doctrines(Destiny)... has He died? [ Out of frustration... when she found her Fate dominating over her persuasive and positive endeavours]

(3) Puhazhaendhi says in Nalha-Venhba (Naidadham)... as Haris-chandras words...

À¾¢ þÆó¾Éõ À¡Ä¨É þÆó¾Éõ...¿¢¾¢ þÆó¾Éõ... ¸¾¢ þÆ츢Ûõ ¸ðΨà þÆ츢§Äõ

Pathi izhandhanam Baalanai izhandhanam.... Nidhi izhandhanam...
.... Gathi izhakkinum Katturai izhakkilaem.

Meaning:-- Chandramathi, my dear wife.... We have lost our Country...Lost our Boy(Son)... Lost all our Financial-Resources...

...Further even if we lose the Ultimate Refuge (by our ILL-FATE)...

... WE WILL NOT GIVE-UP OUR PRINCIPLE.

(4) Kamban Says... in the words of Rama.

¿¾¢Â¢ý À¢¨Æ «ýÚ ¿Úõ ÒÉø þý¨Á... «ü§È À¾¢Â¢ý À¢¨Æ «ýÚ....
Å¢¾¢Â¢ý À¢¨Æ þ¾üÌ ±ý¨É ¦ÅÌñ¼Ð? ±ýÈ¡ý

Nadhiyin Pizhai anrhu narhum Punal inmai... atrhae Padhiyin Pizhai anrhu...

..VIDHIYIN PIZHAI...idharkku yennai vehundadhu? yenrhaan.

Meaning: It is Not the Fault of the River... for not having Abundant / Fresh Water-flow... Nor the Fault of Dasaratha... Nor Kaikeyi... But it is the FAULT OF OUR FATE.!!... Oh Lakshmana why do you get angry for this?

(5) Ilhango Adihalh in Silappadhikaaram Says... in Kanhnhaki's words...

²º¡ º¢ÈôÀ¢ý þ¨º Å¢ÇíÌ ¦ÀÕõ ÌÊ
Á¡º¡òÐ Å¡½¢¸ý Á¸¨É¡¸¢....
... Å¡ú¾ø §ÅñÊ... "°úÅ¢¨É ÐÃôÀ"...

Yaesaa sirhappin Isai vilhangu perum Kudi
Maasaaththu Vaanhiban Mahanai Aahi
Vaazhdhal Vaendi OOZH-VINAI thurappa...

Meaning : Kovalan born in a Great ancestry Unblemished... Famous Merchants...in the course of Life...DRIVEN BY FATE...

So ...Does it mean... that ...

...[b]We are bound to Succumb to Fate... AS INESCAPABLE VICTIMS?

Tamil Literatures well define Life... under Two Categories... of Earthly-purview.

... VAAZHKKAI...and.. VAAZHVU...

VAAZHKAI is the God's Overall Scheme including Destiny ...

...Superseding over the Individual's Plans...VAAZHVU.

VAAZHVU :-- For example, a Child Daughter's Plans... based on her own likes, desires, wishes and ambitions... confined to her elementary powers of Mind and Wisdom

...totally ignorant of her Overall Life-needs... rather her Fathers Plan of action in a Comprehensive-purview in her exclusive interests.

VAAZHKAI :-- while concurrently her Father, the Gaurdian-Protector's Plan, Programme and Overall-Schedules...his Own-Scheme for her Child-Daughter...towards her needs on Subsistence, Sickness/Health, Education, Marriage and Prosperity...

...building up towards the Advancement as a Worthy HUMAN-BEING of Calibre and Fame... in the Overall Life

So similar to a Child-daughter who carries out her part of duties confined to her limitations and boundaries...

...alongside linking her Plan of actions... CONFORMING to her PROTECTOR FATHER'S Comprehensive Schedule.

So the Mankind MUST CONSTANTLY ENDEAVOUR to Enjoy Life and Succeed to the maximum possible extent duly achieving his purpose of High birth as Human...

... while ACCEPTING HIS FINAL VERDICTS... if and when at any stage...the Man's approach is not approved nor Sanctioned... [Man proposes God disposes]

... and duly co-operating with his Commitments to God on the UNIVERSAL INTERESTS.

.... culminating in the REAL HAPPINESS and WORTHY SUCCESS Overall...

... thus fetching the Maximum advantage by God's Grace...

... through Moral-Life of HUMAN-VALUES.
.[/tscii:fa4d036ede]

[thamiz]

Since I don't know 'reporting'

I'll publicly ask the moderators the reasons behind letting Rohit abusing fellow hubbers. You can tell us please.

Rohit must be humuliated and kicked out of here.

50% of what he writes is about his thoughts on the fellow hubbers.

This forum is not moderated at all?

Someone like this "jabroni" can go on attack Rohit with an excuse of a "lie" that he/she does not know how to REPORT and attack another hiubber the way he/she wishes to in PUBLIC ??

This is TERRIBLE and SAD!

[thamiz]

Since I don't know 'reporting'

"jabroni" :

Click the "icon" ! , then you can report any post you wish to report.

And, here after if you DONT KNOW, how to use this forum, ASK .

IGNORANCE is not an excuse to ABUSE HUBBERS ever!! :evil:

[Raghu]

aha, Thamiz and Jaboaroni what is going on here?

:confused2:

[goodsense]

What is going on?

I had this PM from a concerned hubber (not Jabroni nor any old concerned hubbers who wrote to me or communicated with me before on hub or through PM, but someone writing to me for the first time) two days ago:

"I'm one of those who doesn't like the presene of Rohit. He takes everything personally and abuse people. I'm dissapointed with his attitude in hub, also the moderators who gave him freedom in abundance......I have given up on moderators now".

[thamiz]

Mr. Raghu:


Jaboaroni WROTE:
Rohit must be humuliated and kicked out of here.

Jabroni is PUBLICLY abusing a senior hubber, Mr. Rohit, coming in the middle of nowhere of this discussion! :evil:

I wondered, WHY such an ABUSE by Jaboroni is allowed in a moderated forum? :roll:

[Rohit]

[tscii:6b4453429a]According to Jabroni, this forum is not moderated at all because what I wrote mercilessly exposed the utter imbecility embedded in the thoughts of the other hubbers; and therefore, I must be humiliated and kicked out of here.

According to Thamiz, Jabroni came in the middle of nowhere to attack me with a false excuse that he/she didn’t not know how to report, which was terribly sad. Therefore, Thamiz kindly offered Jabroni help on how to report with a due remark that ignorance cannot be used as wish rides.

As usual, Raghu also popped in again, got terribly confused all over again; and once more ended up asking, "what is going on here?" But all his confusions were removed as soon as he was promptly responded by someone with a baloney that there was one more person who didn’t like my presence here in the hub.

Having read all these; I feel humiliated, as if I am kicked out of here. I think; Jabroni’s wish has finally come true. :oops: [/tscii:6b4453429a]

:D :) :thumbsup:

[thamiz]

Nice summary, Rohit! :)

[maithree]

[tscii:96b2897797]

I feel humiliated, as if I am kicked out of here. I think; Jabroni’s wish has finally come true.

Can he/others who don't love you (I'm assuming that that's a lot of ppl xcept Thamiz Aunty) look forward to you leaving then? :D[/tscii:96b2897797]

[goodsense]

[tscii:6fa29d94a9]
But all his confusions were removed as soon as he was promptly responded by someone with a baloney that there was one more person who didn’t like my presence here in the hub.

Once more, what careless writing is this :?: We all know that moderators have access to our PMs. Should any doubt remain, let them do the verification and publish the result. I haven't deleted any PMs and in post I only tried to protect the identification of the complainant.
[/tscii:6fa29d94a9]

[thamiz]

[tscii:76f03f844f]

I feel humiliated, as if I am kicked out of here. I think; Jabroni’s wish has finally come true.

Can he/others who don't love you (I'm assuming that that's a lot of ppl xcept Thamiz Aunty) look forward to you leaving then? :D[/tscii:76f03f844f]

It was a joke with sarcasm! :P

Why do you think anyone should satisfy everybody's ill-wish or care about impolite and indecent remarks :?:

[nemesis786]

[tscii:6f1a7b8a25]

I feel humiliated, as if I am kicked out of here. I think; Jabroni’s wish has finally come true.

Can he/others who don't love you (I'm assuming that that's a lot of ppl xcept Thamiz Aunty) look forward to you leaving then? :D[/tscii:6f1a7b8a25]

It was a joke with sarcasm! :P

Why do you think anyone should satisfy everybody's ill-wish or care about impolite and indecent remarks :?:

Yes just like how we have learnt to ignore your evil remarks on particular religious concepts :?: :arrow:

[thamiz]

Yes just like how we have learnt to ignore your evil remarks on particular religious concepts :?: :arrow:

:D

[SRS]

Well, "thamiz" has already reincarnated himself a few times in this forum, e.g. "UKW", etc. But I doubt Rohit will follow such an example? Rohit's style of writing is too obvious to allow for impersonation.

[thamiz]

Well, "thamiz" has already reincarnated himself a few times in this forum, e.g. "UKW", etc. But I doubt Rohit will follow such an example? Rohit's style of writing is too obvious to allow for impersonation.

Sometimes it cost a life to get rid of some trash in a "world" which is "partial" like this!

See, they allow you for all sort of personal attack because you are a fanatic! This forum adminstration loves fanatics! They love you too especailly when you attack people personally just like this for 100th time!!!

Sometiems it is worth "dying for" getting rid of some fanatics in "world" which is run by biased and prejudiceous people who let fanatics like you to TALK any TRASH you like and live a long life, though you attack others personally for no reason!!

* If they are not biased, tell me why you are STILL "ALIVE"?

* And never ever been banned by them???

* Not you, I can challenge anybody to offfer a justification for

"Why they let fanatics like you still "ALIVE" without taking any action against for your personal attacks on ME for the 100th time until today"???

[Shakthiprabha.]

Dear Rohit,

Whatever be ur ideas/views/concepts,

however be ur attacks/arguments/ego :P

howmuch ever u were against any particular beliefs....

I have my respects for u, and wuold defintely MISS your posts.


I am always indebted to you and pradeep for showing me 2 different perspectives.

cheers. :) .

Good luck to u in ur pursuit of truth.

regards,
Shakthi.

[thamiz]

Well, if Rohit leaves this forum it definitely proves that this forum is going DOWN day by day!

And it proves that injustice is sevrved by this adminstration by doing poor moderation by FAVORING the fanatics over decent caring citizens like Rohit! :(

[Nakeeran]

Well, if Rohit leaves this forum it definitely proves that this forum is going DOWN day by day!

And it proves that injustice is sevrved by this adminstration by doing poor moderation by FAVORING the fanatics over decent caring citizens like Rohit! :(

Ada Tamizu ,

Romba unarchi vasapadureenga pole :cry:

Adhaan neenga irukeengale ! :lol: Unga dharmam thalai kaakum . Thakka samayathil TFM kaakum :D

[thamiz]

Well, if Rohit leaves this forum it definitely proves that this forum is going DOWN day by day!

And it proves that injustice is sevrved by this adminstration by doing poor moderation by FAVORING the fanatics over decent caring citizens like Rohit! :(

Ada Tamizu ,

Romba unarchi vasapadureenga pole :cry:

Adhaan neenga irukeengale ! :lol: Unga dharmam thalai kaakum . Thakka samayathil TFM kaakum :D

Dont worry, I wont be here that long! There are other growing forums which is welcoming people like me wholeheartedly! They DONT fool the fellow hubbers in the name of moderation by overlooking personal attacks on select hubbers like they do here!

You all fanatics can have fun and take this forum to a higher level of fanatism !!! 8-)

I bet you, the moderators will cover fanatics by cook or crook! So this is about time for fanatics to improve this forum to the next level! :D 8-)

[Nakeeran]

tamilu

Today neenga romba unarchi vasapadureenga pole.
Ennai mannithu vitten endru oru varthai sollungal. Ungal manadhai naan pun paduthi vitaal.

Bcaz, u are one of the few hubbers I really admire apart from Justice.

You should continue here definitely. NEVER RETREAT .

Good night

[maithree]

Well, "thamiz" has already reincarnated himself a few times in this forum, e.g. "UKW", etc. .

To be xact, it goes like this:

UKW
MELLON
STRANGER
and now Thamiz.

After Stranger got banned, I heard that she vowed to never return to the hub. :roll:


Sometiems it is worth "dying for" getting rid of some fanatics in "world" which is run by biased and prejudiceous people who let fanatics like you to TALK any TRASH you like and live a long life, though you attack others personally for no reason!!

"Why they let fanatics like you still "ALIVE" without taking any action against for your personal attacks on ME for the 100th time until today"???

Thamiz Aunty-ku BP iruka? :shock:

Ur the one to talk. :lol2:

U made fun of "Kandhanukku Arogara" once insulting Murugan Bhaktas, along with insulting every sect of hindus that exist in your other Civilized, Decent and Caring Posts as UKW and Mellon!

REmember thamiz u also once called Hindu Literiture as "Loads and Loads of Crap" In this very same Section of the new hub! And now u are the advocate for Decency! :lol:

Just because ur thamiz once doesn't mean that ppl forget what u did as the other 3. :lol2:

PS: Don't you usually support the Mods in everything they do? Like u did in the Mods thread? :? :huh:

[thamiz]

So, what are you trying to say "SURYA" :?: :roll:

Are you trying to tell me, "You (Surya) had been banned once for MISCONDUCT too and so justice had been served" :?:


PS: Don't you usually support the Mods in everything they do? Like u did in the Mods thread?

It depends on issues. Rohit is one of the most decent hubbers I have ever seen. He never gets involved any nonsense. He has alsways been a great critic.

His presnce improves the quality of this hub

I am afraid, injustice is severed to such a decent gentleman which is not fair!

[maithree]

Are you trying to tell me, "You (Surya) had been banned once for MISCONDUCT too and so justice had been served"

Actually "Surya" wasn't banned. :lol2: NOV sent my a PM asking if I wanted Surya or Maithree, and asked me to choose, and I chose Maithree. (U can ask him if u'd like! :lol2: )

Actually what I was saying is if you really wanted justice to be served, then you wouldn't be able hub permanently for the crap that you've spewed here in the past. :lol2: Neither are you the one to talk abt Decency! :lol2: Just be glad the mods are the way they are! :thumbsup:


Rohit is one of the most decent hubbers I have ever seen.

That's not sayin much! :wink:

[thamiz]

Are you trying to tell me, "You (Surya) had been banned once for MISCONDUCT too and so justice had been served"

Actually "Surya" wasn't banned. :lol2: NOV sent my a PM asking if I wanted Surya or Maithree, and asked me to choose, and I chose Maithree. (U can ask him if u'd like! :lol2: )

I see! 8-)

[Rohit]

[tscii:98d17a3332]If Star Red Shifts were due to its simultaneous hopping on and spinning around some randomly oriented pogo sticks, then one should not wonder if the deaths and rebirths of Star aRe Scheduled on Sabbath. :lol: :lol: :lol:

My mordant jokes, with whatever flavour of sarcasms in them, are meant to cheer up those frustrated imbeciles who desperately want to see me go. But :notthatway:

So, please don’t get carried away with them too fatally and prepare for even more spinning and hopping rounds of wish rides.

Dear SP,

To be fair with your comment, I am not against any belief. What I am against is the utter heedlessness and falsity of the claims that the believers of those beliefs make.

Not only out of those two perspectives (worldviews) that you have mentioned, but also out of all possible perspectives (worldviews), only one perspective (worldview) can be true; and I know which one is the true one. Hence, my pursuit is more about the refinement of that Truth and not the search of it.

Dear SP/Thamiz

Thank you for your appreciative words. Nevertheless; I haven’t gone yet, I am still around. I assure you, you won’t be disappointed.

Thank you all for your direct and/or indirect support.

:D :) :thumbsup:[/tscii:98d17a3332]

[thamiz]

[tscii:7ab1b9c3ab]


Dear SP/Thamiz

Thank you for your appreciative words. Nevertheless; I haven’t gone yet, I am still around. I assure you, you won’t be disappointed.

Thank you all for your direct and/or indirect support.

:D :) :thumbsup:[/tscii:7ab1b9c3ab]

Way to go Rohit! :)

The hub is saved now! :D

[Rohit]

:thumbsup:

[Designer]

some beliefs hold that, therez nothing called reincarnation, except genetically thro children (i.e. ur genes passed on to kids, who may fulfil ur dreams etc)

However, I DO NOT AGREE, these DISCRIMINATION HAS TO BE BASED ON BIRTH It should be based on TALENT or AREA OF SPECIALISATION

May be it was assumed, the skills would be passed on easily from a DAD to his SON

TCB[/b]]When you want to breed a certain kind of horse to win the race, and you know which genes are the most favourable, why go with unfavourable ones?

TCB[/b]]Genes are genes.

TCB[/b]]As I said earlier, however, MS did not waste time with experimentation. When you want to breed a certain kind of horse to win the race, and you know which genes are the most favourable, why go with unfavourable ones?


Can someone explain whats the expansion of TCB?

Is it some kinda Cricket Board of, for & by Tamilians?

[thamiz]

Ramki : Only people those who involved in this long discussion know what it is. :)

"confused buddist" or something! :D

[goodsense]

Only today I deposited my password for this hub in a safety deposit box. The reason being I decided to be away for some time and fear forgetting my password.

Not sure if it was a good idea to view hub so soon after such a decision when I saw the word "fanatic" and was forced to respond. In my response to the recent complainant I made mention of in last post here, I pointed out that the moderators might be fearful of being labeled as "fanatics" as the reason for not banning Rohit as yet although I suspect the moderators would ban him if he continues to be-little and abuse people here as regularly as he does, especially after so much disgust was expressed by various hubbers.

Surely, I believe Rohit has some points and I sometimes feel they are not linked in allowing one to see the full picture in having the full understanding. As Shakthi said, it is a contribution and I think its a contribution to the whole. If you put it with what Pradheep and SRS says, you will get the "whole" or close enough which I was thinking about for sometime now. May be the moderators saw through this (contubution to the whole although not linked to the other side of the pond, but thought sometime later, hubbers would see how it all relates to the wider picture) and let Rohit have the freedom he enjoyed when he also took liberty in insulting people and not freedom allowed out of fear of being labeled as "fanatics".

The problem is, Rohit wants his contribution to the whole to be taken as the whole and hence, the full and only truth (reason why he gets mad with people and so often) when he himself is in search of the truth. :) :wink:

[Rohit]

[tscii:8458917d88]The whole is the worldview of all worldviews, mutually contradicting though. All those contradicting worldviews are the Subsets of the Main Worldview; and I am talking about that Main Worldview as the base of all possible worldviews.

That’s the Truth/Reality.

:D :) :thumbsup:[/tscii:8458917d88]

[Badri]

Hmm! :roll:

If there is ever a survey on thankless AND unpaid jobs, moderation in this Hub must be second in line after Mothers. :)

If the Mods do something, there is a whole host of hubbers baying for blood.

If the Mods wait and watch, there is still a whole host of hubbers crying foul!

Well, the Mods are neither school teachers to make sure no one is being bullied in this Hub nor are they some sort of a police force whose sole responsibility is to lock up the offenders.

We are all mature individuals in this Hub, and if any Hubber thinks they do not fall into that category, they are not welcome here. Period.

It is rather silly that Hubbers should actually need someone to keep policing them all the time. None of the Mods are actually paid to do this, you know. And all of us have regular day jobs too.

My appeal to all Hubbers: Please grow up. Learn to take a bit of criticism; from what I've seen on the Hub, people are quick to criticise and then start whining when someone returns the same.

And by the way, if Hubbers have issues with Moderation, they are most welcome to PM the respective Mod for the Forum. To date, I haven't received a single PM and yet there are discussions galore on threads about the good and bad of Moderation.

Please understand that all comments on Moderation made on threads will be ignored. If you want something done, hit the PM button. Your PM will be responded to, if not acted upon.

And I will thank you all to not reply back to this with your "Yes, I agrees" or "Boo"

[thamiz]

Well, Badri, I have always been a well-wisher of this hub in my own way.

When I visited this is what I saw (YOU CAN CHECK it yourself :) )

* Jabroni, * nemesis, * goodsense are all passing a judgment that "Rohit should be kicked out"!

Jabroni or nemesis never had been in any serious discussion in this section. They just come here and attack a hubber who has been with us for the past 7 years or so in the SAME NAME ROHIT.

I know, one should not sit in the back-seat of moderators but it is a serious embarrassment caused to a hubber who in my opinion is decent and DOES not deserve such disrespect!

That is all I want to say! :)

[Nakeeran]

Jabroni or nemesis never had been in any serious discussion in this section. They just come here and attack a hubber who has been with us for the past 7 years or so in the SAME NAME ROHIT.:)

Tamilsss

How do you know that Rohit had been around for the past 7 years. MEANS, YOU HAVE ALSO BEEN AROUND IN DIFFERENT NAMES :lol: :D

Aap ek AJNABI hai :)

[nemesis786]

-deleted-

[nemesis786]

-deleted-

[thamiz]

:swinghead:

[maithree]

Jabroni or nemesis never had been in any serious discussion in this section. They just come here and attack a hubber who has been with us for the past 7 years or so in the SAME NAME ROHIT.

:lol: I see that you've left out me and SRS....So I guess if Jabroni and Nemesis participated in a couple discussions, then you won't have any problem with them Critisizing Rohit?? :huh:

Kalakal Logic! :lol2: U have to actively be involved in a section to have the right to critisize the views posted there..:roll: Thank God ur not the MOD! Hub is Saved. :swinghead: :swinghead:

[thamiz]

Surya: A discussion goes through several steps. That is how SRS vs Rohit and Rohit vs Pradheep are going on. They know each other for years.

Though they argue, at times making some personal remarks, they have the right to do to each other as they have been known for each other for years. And that they cant argue unless they have such opponents! If they feel uncomfortable, they can report about Rohit or vv.

But people those who just visit the thread cant judge it correctly and they should not make their judgment and pass their judgment in public offending Rohit. They can always report about Rohit to the moderators in PRIVATE and mods can take the action!

I hope you get my point!

[selvakumar]

thamiz,
Rohit - SRS & Pradheep ukku mattum thaan appadi reply pannuraarnnu neenga nenaikureengala ??
( Do u think that Rohit replies in that way to SRS & Pradheep alone ? )

AFA I have seen, Rohit forces his opinion on others. (Mostly it is with SRS & Pradheep which I agree) especially on topics related to one's BELIEF :huh: Right :?:

A topic that has strong connections with one's belief / religious ideology should be looked only from individual perspective and not on what is true / false. ! I strongly disagree on this "Global view" / "World view" etc

IF you believe in something, I can easily retaliate it by giving the opponent TONS OF LIVE EXAMPLES that can put him in embarrassment, by neatly neglecting the other side's examples. This is an easy job for anyone. This is what Rohit is doing AFA I have observed (Please correct me if I am wrong since we may not have info on what happened 7 years before)

& You took the opposite side when "Bala" was banned. (a ban which I still believe as a pity / injustice). We did complain. But You took the other side & you were speaking in support of the MODS :huh:

What Rohit is to elder hubbers like u is ||| to what Bala was for us ! :roll:


IMHO, "Knowledge is power. But when it mixes with RUDENESS, nothing comes out in a +ve way"

I don't think a person like GOODSENSE deserves such a harsh treatment. :huh: AFAIK, She is more humble, polite in her replies. Even a diff of opinion, she takes it in a +ve way - NO ONE CAN BE PERFECT. But we should not be acting on the other side all the time

What did poor CRAZY did ? Is it a sin if she believes in GOD? :huh:

Sorry if this one sounds rude :oops:


P.S: Please don't take this as some kind of allegation / retaliation on you. After reading the arguments in this ENTIRE THREAD, this is what I wanted to tell.

[thilak4life]

stole words out of my mouth (or keyboard)


thamiz,
Rohit - SRS & Pradheep ukku mattum thaan appadi reply pannuraarnnu neenga nenaikureengala ??
( Do u think that Rohit replies in that way to SRS & Pradheep alone ? )

AFA I have seen, Rohit forces his opinion on others. (Mostly it is with SRS & Pradheep which I agree) especially on topics related to one's BELIEF :huh: Right :?:

A topic that has strong connections with one's belief / religious ideology should be looked only from individual perspective and not on what is true / false. ! I strongly disagree on this "Global view" / "World view" etc

IF you believe in something, I can easily retaliate it by giving the opponent TONS OF LIVE EXAMPLES that can put him in embarrassment, by neatly neglecting the other side's examples. This is an easy job for anyone. This is what Rohit is doing AFA I have observed (Please correct me if I am wrong since we may not have info on what happened 7 years before)

& You took the opposite side when "Bala" was banned. (a ban which I still believe as a pity / injustice). We did complain. But You took the other side & you were speaking in support of the MODS :huh:

What Rohit is to elder hubbers like u is ||| to what Bala was for us ! :roll:


IMHO, "Knowledge is power. But when it mixes with RUDENESS, nothing comes out in a +ve way"

I don't think a person like GOODSENSE deserves such a harsh treatment. :huh: AFAIK, She is more humble, polite in her replies. Even a diff of opinion, she takes it in a +ve way - NO ONE CAN BE PERFECT. But we should not be acting on the other side all the time

What did poor CRAZY did ? Is it a sin if she believes in GOD? :huh:

Sorry if this one sounds rude :oops:


P.S: Please don't take this as some kind of allegation / retaliation on you. After reading the arguments in this ENTIRE THREAD, this is what I wanted to tell.

:exactly:

[thamiz]

Selva!

I think there is nothing wrong in having belief and group of people having a same belief. They can form a GROUP of protected forum to themselves and share their opinion in that group. They should not disclose that to the public. Nobody is going to hurt them and the other cant read their belief and discussions!

When anyone says that to the public, Rohit or others have the right to disagree!

If he forces his ideas, you dont have to BUY IT!

[thamiz]

You took the opposite side when "Bala" was banned. (a ban which I still believe as a pity / injustice). We did complain. But You took the other side & you were speaking in support of the MODS

Yes I did.

I am forcing the moderators to take action here as they dont visit here.

In Bala case, first of all I dont know what happened. I did not like you guys embarrassing the moderator for doing his job!I am not going to complain if the moderators banned Rohit for whatever reason! And nemesis, jaboroni are not moderators here to warn Rohit!

Sleva!

You need to understand, Rohit does not do child's play like us in the film section! :)

[Roshan]

You took the opposite side when "Bala" was banned. (a ban which I still believe as a pity / injustice). We did complain. But You took the other side & you were speaking in support of the MODS

Yes I did.

I am forcing the moderators to take action here as they dont visit here.

In Bala case, first of all I dont know what happened. I did not like you guys embarrassing the moderator for doing his job!I am not going to complain if the moderators banned Rohit for whatever reason!

Sleva!

You need to understand, Rohit does not do child's play like us in the film section! :)

Thamiz,

I comletely disagree here. First of all I dont understand as to how you can get involved in a discussion or argument without even knowing what has happened. It baffles me. I dont think it is ethical and professional to get involved in any discussions without knowing the basis of it. Ridiculous it is. Without even knowing what the problem is you claim that the moderator has done his job. Doing the job means - doing it in the right way and not showing the power and arrogance. For you - moderators not visiting the section is a wrong act and for us doing injustice to a hubber is an even more wronger act. As much as you have the freedom bringing it up here - we have the freedom of bringing it up there.


You need to understand, Rohit does not do child's play like us in the film section! :)

May I know what difference it makes?

[thamiz]

Roshan: Film section is considered as entertaining section. The rules are not technically same there, I believe!

[thamiz]

Thamiz,

I comletely disagree here. First of all I dont understand as to how you can get involved in a discussion or argument without even knowing what has happened. It baffles me. I dont think it is ethical and professional to get involved in any discussions without knowing the basis of it. Ridiculous it is. Without even knowing what the problem is you claim that the moderator has done his job. Doing the job means - doing it in the right way and not showing the power and arrogance. For you - moderators not visiting the section is a wrong act and for us doing injustice to a hubber is an even more wronger act. As much as you have the freedom bringing it up here - we have the freedom of bringing it up there.

R: When I was not able to log in last time, my friends talked with the mods and they told me to contact RR who could help sort out the problem.

well I felt the same way like Bala did so did my friends. But the mods might see things differently you know!

I just wanted to take a break and I did not go, talk to RR or e-mail him. I just lived with it. Of course that is me! :)

I beleive they would have don the same to Bala if the mods and RR were approached PRIVATELY.

You guys took this to a different level publicly. It has got a stage that it is going hurt someone's self-respect and ego so badly for doing his job with "limitations". So! :)

[thilak4life]

child's play

Define that please. There is nothing called child's play. The world we live in, is a questionable entity in itself. What we contemplate and speculate - Our beliefs - these are built by external factors than you per se. We define rules from the reality conjured upon us. Science always leaves a door open for other views - because 'reality' is a question by itself! So, from a nihilistic point of view, things which you perceive to be 'the ultimate truth' could turn out to be pointless.

Being an atheist, I am against people who poke and taunt theists. Why directly attack the person with an opposing view, it makes the attacker look silly. I agree that Religion and God has brought more bad than good. But to just play around with those who believe in it, is downright immaturity. Instead of disparaging the believers, counter their belief. If they don't listen, then leave them alone.

To be objective, you need to place yourself in different subjective views and analyze things. If you can't do that, then you're being subjective and short-sighted (kurugiya paarvai).

End of the day, this thread is the child's play by hub's standards (with prejudicing and naivety). Please read Richard dawkins or at least watch his documentaries. And every other documentary about atheism, evolution (and how creationism is total bullshit), etc. That should help.

Amen!

[thamiz]

You can see teenagers and preteens too! :D

[thamiz]

Well, seems like everybody is in a mood! :lol:

[thilak4life]

Roshan: Film section is considered as entertaining section. The rules are not technically same there, I believe!

You guys made a serious topic look entertaining with cat fights. :rotfl:
There we entertain ourselves discussing about an entertaining medium. :P

[thamiz]

Are you the "bala" ? :swinghead:

[thilak4life]

You can see teenagers and preteens too! :D

Lack of words perhaps :rotfl:

[Roshan]

Roshan: Film section is considered as entertaining section. The rules are not technically same there, I believe!

Rule means rule - no matter what section it is !! If fighting against GOD is a serious issue for Rohit, if fighting for his extremist views on religion is a serious matter for SRS then talking about film personalities is a serious business for Bala. They all mean business in their own perspective. Even if we go by your words - matters in an entertainment section should have more flexiblity than the sections which entertain serious and controversial stuff like God and Anti God and religious extremism. It's far better having fun at the film section rather than spreading hated among hubbers based on religion and God.

And I have to agree that Selva was completely right in all ways !

[thilak4life]

Are you the "bala" ? :swinghead:

Why did he also make you look speechless? :rotfl: Talk about Irony :D

[thamiz]

And I have to agree that Selva was completely right in all ways !

:notworthy:

Dont get mad at me, I am not in a "fighting" mood today! :D

[thamiz]

Are you the "bala" ? :swinghead:

Why did he also make you look speechless? :rotfl: Talk about Irony :D

He, who? :roll:

[thilak4life]

When some yahoo asks :Are you the "bala" ?

When someone replies: Why, did he also make you look speechless?

Anyone with some glimmer of intelligence or comprehending ability would ask... "he", who?

:rotfl: :lol:

[Roshan]

And I have to agree that Selva was completely right in all ways !

:notworthy:

Dont get mad at me, I am not in a "fighting" mood today! :D

I never get into fighting mood and you know me better :wink: I am just saying the truth and I know truth is usually indigestible :wink:

[thamiz]

When some yahoo asks :Are you the "bala" ?

When someone replies: Why, did he also make you look speechless?

Anyone with some glimmer of intelligence or comprehending ability would ask... "he", who?

:rotfl: :lol:

Your answers are too hard for me to understand! :oops:

[thilak4life]

No wonder :D

[maithree]

When some yahoo asks :Are you the "bala" ?

When someone replies: Why, did he also make you look speechless?

Anyone with some glimmer of intelligence or comprehending ability would ask... "he", who?

:rotfl: :lol:

:rotfl:

Glimmer of Intelligence or Comprehending Ability! :rotfl2: Damn that's good stuff! :lol: :thumbsup:

[thamiz]

When some yahoo asks :Are you the "bala" ?

When someone replies: Why, did he also make you look speechless?

Anyone with some glimmer of intelligence or comprehending ability would ask... "he", who?

:rotfl: :lol:

:rotfl:

Glimmer of Intelligence or Comprehending Ability! :rotfl2: Damn that's good stuff! :lol: :thumbsup:

:D

[maithree]

When some yahoo asks :Are you the "bala" ?

When someone replies: Why, did he also make you look speechless?

Anyone with some glimmer of intelligence or comprehending ability would ask... "he", who?

:rotfl: :lol:

:rotfl:

Glimmer of Intelligence or Comprehending Ability! :rotfl2: Damn that's good stuff! :lol: :thumbsup:

:D

8-)

[Shakthiprabha.]

What karma are we discussing here please?

[thamiz]

What karma are we discussing here please?

karma of this thread, I guess! :)

Thanks, shakthi, for fixing me! :D

[Shakthiprabha.]

tamizh,

:) :D

Just wanted deviate everybody from heated discussions :oops:

[thamiz]

tamizh,
Just wanted deviate everybody from heated discussions :oops:

I know! :)

[Nerd]

Been a silent reader of this thread for long. I reserve my comments on the actual subject of the thread and the arguments. On the *current* issue, I guess Badri's post summarizes everything although I disagree with him on,

We are not paid -- All the mods whine saying this. Yes you are not paid and no one thrust this job upon you, you can always quit if you are unable to perform the duty. No offence meant :)

[thamiz]

Rule means rule - no matter what section it is !!

R: YOu can certainly see the difference in the quality of the hubbers and in their age!

Most people get banned only in Film section.

What does this tell you?


If fighting against GOD is a serious issue for Rohit, if fighting for his extremist views on religion is a serious matter for SRS then talking about film personalities is a serious business for Bala.

See, you were all there for Bala. I just was there for Rohit as I knew him for years!


And I have to agree that Selva was completely right in all ways !

I beg to disagree and read his post again and see. H eis a theist just like you are and so he makes everybody but Rohit as good! Taht is not true!

Being an atheist is not a crime, Roshan! And atheists are not criminals either!

If they cant outfight Rohit in arguments, they should just go.

There should not be any personal attack. All the theists are attacking him and accusing him as if he is a bad guy. he is not!

[thamiz]

child's play

Define that please. There is nothing called child's play.

I can show you some hubbers posts there. You may not see that qulaity in Rohit's posts or here.


Being an atheist, I am against people who poke and taunt theists. Why directly attack the person with an opposing view, it makes the attacker look silly.

Well, you can keep your rules for yourself. You cant insist or expect that the same on others, Ringht :?:


I agree that Religion and God has brought more bad than good. But to just play around with those who believe in it, is downright immaturity. Instead of disparaging the believers, counter their belief. If they don't listen, then leave them alone.

To be objective, you need to place yourself in different subjective views and analyze things. If you can't do that, then you're being subjective and short-sighted (kurugiya paarvai).

This lecture is for whom ? :roll:

For me???

I wonder why :?: :roll:


End of the day, this thread is the child's play by hub's standards (with prejudicing and naivety). Please read Richard dawkins or at least watch his documentaries. And every other documentary about atheism, evolution (and how creationism is total bullshit), etc. That should help.

Amen!

I dont understand what you are talking about here. I said (meant) film section has KIDS! :P

[Rohit]

Dear all,

I am surprised, but at the same time glad too, to see so many of you discussing things that are absolutely unrelated to the topic.

Since, I see my name appearing in al most every post now and then, please allow me to put things in the right perspectives for all of you with reference to the following comments made by various people.


A topic that has strong connections with one's belief / religious ideology should be looked only from individual perspective and not on what is true / false.

Being an atheist, I am against people who poke and taunt theists. Why directly attack the person with an opposing view, it makes the attacker look silly.

If fighting against GOD is a serious issue for Rohit, if fighting for his extremist views on religion is a serious matter for SRS then talking about film personalities is a serious business for Bala.
Those who think this thread was/is intended for the theists only, then they must think again. I suggest they read the entire thread carefully and see how unqualified that perception turns out to be.

In response to what selvakumar and others have said regarding attacking or taunting theists and their religious beliefs, I am reproducing below a few examples of the past discussions that took place in this thread.


In that case, either, just believe in what you want to believe in and forget these futile efforts without grasping the extent of dichotomies.
Here, I would expect SRS to mirror what selvakumar said:


A topic that has strong connections with one's belief / religious ideology should be looked only from individual perspective and not on what is true / false.
But, no; SRS had other ideas !!! He replied !!!


There is only one God. ................gobbledegook....gobbledegook...

That means, you have chosen to believe.
Had SRS responded by saying, "Yes I have chosen to believe", I wouldn't have argued any further and left him alone with his beliefs, exactly as pointed out by selvakumar and thilak4life.

But below is what his reply was !!!




There is only one God. ................
That means, you have chosen to believe.
Your feeble attempts to cast doubt upoun the existance of only one God on the basis of variance in human perception have failed miserably. By the way, what is your answer to this other question, how does the Universe expand into nothingness if it already contains all possible empty space?
If those who advocate to leave such theists alone with their beliefs could really accept the feebleness of their minds, then according to them, I should have left the discussion at that point without a reply. However, it was beyond me not to respond to such absurd and fragile arguments intended as indirect persuasions for me to believe that too.

Similar pattern of arguments went on with other believers too.

What followed after that was a long chain of actions and reactions, which has brought us all here in this situation, and still discussing about who did what, when and why! And precisely that, what my argument was in the first place, in right context to the topic.

I hope, this should help in viewing things from better perspectives.

Thank you!

:D :) :thumbsup:

[thamiz]

Rohit: You are doing great! You dont have to justify your stand to everyone! :)

[Sudhaama]

.
My Dear Friends...What is going on here?... Discussion on the Subject?

...Or Exchange of MUTUAL ANIMOSITY.!!

..How long you people intend DISAPPOINTING US.?

With Best Wishes...

Painfully Yours,
Sudhaama.

[thamiz]

Mr. Sudhaama: If you had warned the people those who get involved in personal attacks on Rohit, we would not be here! :) They would have listened to you! :)

[thilak4life]

Rohit,

Well, in that case. I would say, you were justified, but please avoid words like 'imbeciles' but use more dignified phrases like "your IQ needs a little tweaking" or something along that likes - this way, you don't belittle them directly (And their egos don't go down to the gutters - No wonder that Ego is a curse).

I only wish people like SRS was open-minded. But theists are blinded from the truth over the years. First they need to 'question' the idiocy themselves - people like us (atheists) are often looked down with contempt and disdain. This is because of the damage caused to them over the years from all the lies conjured upon them from their parents and various other external factors.

As I said, more than us - let them take the initiative to correct themselves.

But Rohit, I found a few naive ala-kais and kujja thookis (with language as names I guess) who put aama saami without talking sense or have anything much to say, but always ready to provoke with silly rants! This hinders the points that you're countering and the discourse strays into a cat-fight. I haven't seen a sensible post from them but from what I've seen, they seem to babble around - maybe to feel good about themselves. Narcissistic pleasure that humans often need to feel the air of sycophancy around - Heck, this also explains outcry from others who read such nonsensical stuff. Those people seldom have the comprehending ability of what the others say and I'm baffled to see them moan about other kids - :rotfl:

Interestingly, they justify you but fight against injustice elsewhere - Hypocrites! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :evil: :evil:

[maithree]

Well, you can keep your rules for yourself. You cant insist or expect that the same on others, Ringht

You say this but then you play the Jalra for Rohit who is basically doing the same and expects other to follow his version of the "worldview" which he has apparently come up with. :lol:

RIGHT! U've got a Concrete, Justified Arguement Aunty! :lol:

[Roshan]

Rohit,

I in fact logged out and almost went to bed. But then again changed my mind and came back to respond to Thamiz - who as a response to one of my earlier posts - said that she disagrees with me for saying Selva was right.

But when I logged in again - I felt glad to see your response as regards Selva's views (and also Thilak's) and I have been left with nothing to respond as you have said it all. I personally felt that Selva expressed a balanced view in a mature way without indulging in any cat fights and I am glad to see your giving due respect for his views :D I appreciate your understanding and as usual you have displayed the extent of maturity a person of your caliber holds :D

Apart from that I have no interest what so ever in having discussions here on this topic because as you have rightly said ' I have chosen to beleive' - and that's it for me. Having said that, I should accept that I have enjoyed the discussions between you and Pradheep on many occassions and it had helped me understand the other side of the spectrum to a great extent. Thanks for that :)

Please do continue and all the best to you :thumbsup:

[Roshan]

Hey Thilak - Good to see you around :)

[thamiz]

Rohit,

I in fact logged out and almost went to bed. But then again changed my mind and came back to respond to Thamiz - who as a response to one of my earlier posts - said that she disagrees with me for saying Selva was right.

:

I disagree with Selva- some points he brought up. See the passage given here, Roshan! :) I dont want to discuss about it and you know why! :)


I don't think a person like GOODSENSE deserves such a harsh treatment. AFAIK, She is more humble, polite in her replies. Even a diff of opinion, she takes it in a +ve way - NO ONE CAN BE PERFECT. But we should not be acting on the other side all the time

What did poor CRAZY did ? Is it a sin if she believes in GOD?

[Roshan]

I disagree with Selva. See the passage given here, Roshan! :) I dont want to discuss about it and you know why! :)


I don't think a person like GOODSENSE deserves such a harsh treatment. AFAIK, She is more humble, polite in her replies. Even a diff of opinion, she takes it in a +ve way - NO ONE CAN BE PERFECT. But we should not be acting on the other side all the time



Oh ! itha sollureengaLaa? Sorry I was not referring to this. I was only referring to the core points he raised regarding individual beliefs and moderator issues. Sorry for the confusion :wink:

[thamiz]

OK Roshan, take it easy! :)

[Rohit]

Rohit,

Well, in that case. I would say, you were justified, but please avoid words like 'imbeciles' but use more dignified phrases like "your IQ needs a little tweaking" or something along that likes - this way, you don't belittle them directly (And their egos don't go down to the gutters - No wonder that Ego is a curse).

I only wish people like SRS was open-minded. But theists are blinded from the truth over the years. First they need to 'question' the idiocy themselves - people like us (atheists) are often looked down with contempt and disdain. This is because of the damage caused to them over the years from all the lies conjured upon them from their parents and various other external factors.

As I said, more than us - let them take the initiative to correct themselves.

Thanks thilak4life for the appropriate response. :thumbsup:

[Rohit]

Rohit,

I in fact logged out and almost went to bed. But then again changed my mind and came back to respond to Thamiz - who as a response to one of my earlier posts - said that she disagrees with me for saying Selva was right.

But when I logged in again - I felt glad to see your response as regards Selva's views (and also Thilak's) and I have been left with nothing to respond as you have said it all. I personally felt that Selva expressed a balanced view in a mature way without indulging in any cat fights and I am glad to see your giving due respect for his views :D I appreciate your understanding and as usual you have displayed the extent of maturity a person of your caliber holds :D

Apart from that I have no interest what so ever in having discussions here on this topic because as you have rightly said ' I have chosen to beleive' - and that's it for me. Having said that, I should accept that I have enjoyed the discussions between you and Pradheep on many occassions and it had helped me understand the other side of the spectrum to a great extent. Thanks for that :)

Please do continue and all the best to you :thumbsup:

Thanks Roshan; you are a nice person. :) :thumbsup:

[Rohit]

Thanks Tamiz for your friendliness. :) :thumbsup:

[goodsense]

We all have our views and sometimes it is best to leave some things unsaid. Views can be changed over time and it has been happening on hub. Yet, for some people it is never a consideration before making "wild" statements because they want to see things their way.

Thanks to thilak4life for using the word "immaturity". It's one of the key words I used when responding to that complainant. Hopefully he/she would come forward and relief me of these accusations in admitting that he/she did sent me a PM of certain contents. And so what if I posted it shortly after Jabroni's posts. Why should that be taken to mean that I was trying to get Rohit kicked out of forum. I guess it is the other way around - others are desperate seeking opportunities to attack and stain those they dislike in the hub. This is why I have learnt to ignore them.

It is nothing to do with niceness or friendliness, but the "merits" of the arguments and the "attitude" they are presented with in considering others on the hub. If certain people were attacked personally, their responses would have been different. Who cares who hate or are jealous of Hindus, calling them bigots etc. when relating it to Karma vs Fate. The logic here or truth here is that it is the oldest religion and the father/mother of all others. How much of an extremist can this make one who argues for it? As said widely to us before, without the existence of hinduism, there would be no sects, no buddhism no....

[Rohit]

[tscii:831c2c8bb1]Dear friends,

I never intended to hurt anyone’s feelings or emotions.

All such contradictory arguments eventually lead to what we have witnessed here; and that is what the factual reality is.

Please don’t take things personally and get so depressed and frustrated.

I have a suggestion for our believer friends.

It would be much better and in your own interest to keep your beliefs to yourself.

If you can really do that, no one would ever come to you and ask, "Why do you believe in all these nonsense?"

Good luck!

:D :) :thumbsup:[/tscii:831c2c8bb1]

[maithree]

Why is it any of your business what nonsense ppl believe in?? Espicially when u can tell that ppl take offence to ur words? Please keep ur ""enlightenment"" to yourself, believers don't want it! If you must say something due to verbal diarrhea, and you cannot control what comes out of your mouth and can't practice restraint, say that something to that someone through PM, and not here where we "Depressed and Frustrated" ppl hub!

Good Luck! :D :thumbsup: :D

[pavalamani pragasam]

meen santhai maathiri irukku! :roll:

[goodsense]

Why is it any of your business what nonsense ppl believe in?? Espicially when u can tell that ppl take offence to ur words? Please keep ur ""enlightenment"" to yourself, believers don't want it! If you must say something due to verbal diarrhea, and you cannot control what comes out of your mouth and can't practice restraint, say that something to that someone through PM, and not here where we "Depressed and Frustrated" ppl hub!

Good Luck! :D :thumbsup: :D

:lol: :lol: :lol:
:rotfl:

Can't help it. What a hub :musicsmile:

[Rohit]

Glad to know that you have chosen to believe; and that is how it should have been. If that was the case, you would have enjoyed your "Depressed and Frustrated" states even better. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Good Luck!

:D :) :thumbsup:

[thamiz]

Why is it any of your business what nonsense ppl believe in?? Good Luck!

If one believes earth is cubical or flat, it does not matter as long as he/she does not come here and POST that nonsensical belief.

If he/she does post in public forum, it is everybody's business to DISPROVE that nonsense! :evil:

[Shakthiprabha.]

meen santhai maathiri irukku! :roll:

:|

[maithree]

[b]If one believes earth is cubical or flat, it does not matter as long as he/she does not come here and POST that nonsensical belief.
If he/she does post in public forum, it is everybody's business to DISPROVE that nonsense!

As expected Thamiz Aunty walses in here with an Analogy which makes no sense what so ever. :? :banghead:

Ur comparing the world being Cubical or Flat to the idea of Fate? :banghead:

Fate is a core ideology which ppl of selected Religious Groups believe in!! If I start calling the core beliefs of Xtianity of Islam I'm sure you'd be the first to come out and have a Heart Attack over my post by posting ":evil:" and ":x" Similarly Hindus, Muslims and Xtians strongly believe in the Idea of FATE! What ROHIT is doing is pathetically intervening, screaming, Needlessly Highlighting, and Demanding that ppl accept his views on Atheism or whatever in hell it is that he wants to convey. And what you are doing is senselessly Jalra Adichifying for whatever he says! These are both issues which you two need to deal with. NOT US! Which is why I said that he has problems which he needs to deal with. And if he can't he can atleast minimize the damage by PM'ing the concerened hubbers, and they can choose if they want to take his words into consideration or not.


The TOPIC is well in Jurisdicton of the section! The belief in FATE has influenced Indian Culture and History A LOT! So WE WILL DISCUSS IT IF WE LIKE! :D If ROHIT doesn't like what's being discussed, then let him not come here!

If u want to jalra adichify for ROHIT then u can PM him ur Jalra Episodes! We don't want anything to do with it. :thumbsup:

I HOPE that you have enough Brain Cells to Comprehend what I've written! :)

I HOPE I don't see you come here and post some irrelevent Analogy abt Rice Rates in Timbuktoo or something and compare it to this Situation! :thumbsup:

Regards. 8-)

[thamiz]

yeah yeah yeah! :lol:

* what serves as karma of very first life of any human being?

Go, bang your head (:banghead:) and come up with an answer!

[maithree]

Actually if you two had left the Discussion to bloom then we would've discussed that now wouldn't we? :lol:

Bang my head? Don't worry, I won't. It's only ur repetitive Display of ur Comprehending Ability which makes me do that. :D The Answer to your question? I'm looking forward to learning that myself from someone's post which hopefully you will now spare. 8-)

Anywayz, May we get back to the Discussion now and not have ppl coming here trying to implement their "Worldview" :P

Hope Tommorow is a New Day, with New Possibilities. :thumbsup:

Looking forward to Reading posts of Raghu, SRS, Sudhamma Ji, and Pradheep on this once more. :)

[Badri]

meen santhai maathiri irukku! :roll:

Unfortunately yes, very much so.

Am locking this thread. It is a waste of server space.