abortion

[Fire111999]

after watching the priyasaki movie, i felt that we just had to have a thread abt abortion. i've copied my posts from the priyasaki thread. pls comment on the relevant parts.

even if u can't be bothered to read through everything, post ur opinions abt abortion. is it equivalent to murder? when can u consider a baby as a human baby, at the point of conception, after a few months of pregnancy or at the point of birth? when would you think it's ok to undergo an abortion, e.g. in cases of rape? or do you think that even in rape cases, the girl should give the baby up for adoption?

and, one important thing i want to know. is abortion legal in india?

thank you.




watching the movie priyasaki right now. i can't believe that a girl who can make a sensible statement like it's wrong for pple to share the same soap can think that it's ok to drink when she is pregnant!

and they treat abortion like a piece of cake! firstly, even if the girl doesn't understand the risks and the emotional instabilty that she will go through because of an abortion, no hospital is going to grant her an appointment to have an abortion on the same day she wishes for it. they would first show her a video abt abortion which will convince most pple not to have an abortion unless they are desperate. and then they'll council her and give her time to make a wise informed decision.

this girl feels that she isn't ready to have a child yet and so she wants to have an abortion! what madness! if she didn't think she wanted to have a child yet, she could have resorted to contraceptives!

i'm watching the court scene right now. but i just had to pause to make this post!

still at the court scene, but i just had to add this. the guy actually asks what is the difficulty in giving birth to his child!!! has he forgotten that she has to go through a great deal of pain to give birth?!?

still at the court sence: oh no, i didn't realise that abortion is actually against the law in india!!!

oh, i just remembered. how come the clinic has such sloppy privacy protection? he calls and they tell him that she is registered to have an abortion! might be cos it's an illegal clinic? i mean, it must be if it does abortion illegally. and that prob explains how she could get an appointment for the same day!

ok, since i started complaining abt the movie, i can't seem to stop!

papaya is not bad for pregnant women. how can they endorse such crap in movies and reinforce sth that's not true?

ok, after this point the movie has become so crappy that i can;t even comment. only thing positive to say abt it is that it's amusing!

ok, even the amusing parts are short-lived.

the later parts are just so slow. the only comments i can make is that at least they recognised that a mother can't leave her child (though she doesn't even need 3 months to find that out). even girls who have agreed to give up their child for adoption while they are pregnant, feel that they can't give up their child when the child is born. but i don't understand how come he acts as if he doesn't want to live with her anymore even after she says she wants to.

and how can they advocate that the guy slapping his wife? just cos what she's doing is wrong doesn;t mean he has to resort to violence towards her!

but actually, the parts before that short amusing part are what i am really mad abt. the rest is just cinema crap which i can forgive!

[Fire111999]

and they treat abortion like a piece of cake!




//..if you are not ready to have a child ,it's a very good decision to do abortion rather than having a child and making everybody's life misery.in western countries they do it very neatly..//



that is not correct. as i have already mentioned, they would show her a video that will convince most pple not to have an abortion unless they are desperate. and they'll council her, etc before she can make a decision. are you aware of the emotional trauma she will go through after an abortion? this will not change however "neatly" the abortion is done! (though i agree with you that it is a very simple process)[/quote]

[Fire111999]

are you aware of the emotional trauma she will go through after an abortion?


yeah..some people may be emotional.
it's good to do abortion at the earliest. because if they try after 3 or 4 mths mothers may develop some affection for their baby. it could be hard for them to do that...

but it's good to avoid getting pregant if u don't want baby. but it happens it's good to do it as soon as possible..

in priasaki sada character may have avoided trying for abortion. because it's their 1 st baby.

but in some other cases there will be 2or 3 children in the family. one more baby is too much..

yeah the whole movie was very outrageous, ridiculous and stupid ..




i'm sorry to ask. but where did u learn abt abortion and its effects? some pple? it is almost inevitable that the girl will go through emotional trauma after an abortion! and doing abortion after a few months is quite a lot more complicated! not just cos the mother will get attached. she would be attached even earlier actually!

[Fire111999]

so didn't she go through emotional trauma? didn't she go through loads of counselling sessions?


i think she was upset at first..but now she is very cool... i don't think she went for counselling...

is it very bad?


yeah, it is, it seems. i did a major project on abortion in my 9th standard. we interviewed doctors who do abortions (we couldn't get anyone who had had an abortion done cos of the privacy protection) and they said that their major part was counselling and that the operation itself is very easy. and it seems the mothers form a link with their baby even at very early stage of the pregnancy. so they feel like they have lost a part of themselves after the abortion. and get very depressed and get nightmares abt the baby, etc.

[Fire111999]

and it seems the mothers form a link with their baby even at very early stage of the pregnancy. so they feel like they have lost a part of themselves after the abortion. and get very depressed and get nightmares abt the baby, etc.



yeah...could be...but at the early stages it won't look like baby..it's like embryo
i think people with less education may feel differently...

we see a lot of babies die after birth.it could be heart breaking...but abortion..i don't know



it doesn't matter what the baby looks like at the early stages. it's an inner link that just happens. doesn't really depend on how long the lady has been pregnant. not really like the kind of link like, oh, i love my baby. but sth far more deeper. even someone who doesn't want the baby for practical or other reasons will still have that link.

[crazy]

i dont really know where i stand in this case
but i never favour abortion, but i know what is behind the reason for abortion. i get mad at these idiots who is not aware and not having enough protection and get pregnant and then abort a child. stupids they should be punished!
i have always believed that only GOD have the rights to create and destroy a living being and thats why iam against death sentence too!

[Fire111999]

yes crazy, i agree totally that it's horrible to use abortion as an alternative to contraception. that's so stupid!

[crazy]

i think ppl should be more educated. i mean in this fact. God ur population is exceeding and exceeding and ppl dont seems to look around.
when i was in india i always hated these cheri ppl, not b'coz they were poor or something. those mothers there they have nothing called brain, they give birth to child and let then wanders around in town and becomes nothing but a useless citizens. I dont have the right to tell who is useful creature or not, but look at them, i cant understand how ppl r so stupid!

[Fire111999]

yeah, pple should be educated more abt contraception. and they should get used to using it. and they shouldn't feel that 'kudumba kattupadu', which is how they refer to the operation for the men, i think, is bad. i mean, even in the movies they make out as if it's a lowering and unmanly thing even if a very old man goes for this operation!

[crazy]

yeah, pple should be educated more abt contraception. and they should get used to using it. and they shouldn't feel that 'kudumba kattupadu', which is how they refer to the operation for the men, i think, is bad. i mean, even in the movies they make out as if it's a lowering and unmanly thing even if a very old man goes for this operation!

ellam vedhi bandha, manly has nothing to do with that!
God but something must be done, india has highest hiv patients and growing population! i would really love if the gov impose some new rules telling ppl should not have more than one kid(might sound weird, but there is nothing much to do). and prostitutes must be banned.

[rachel]

i dont really know where i stand in this case
but i never favour abortion, but i know what is behind the reason for abortion. i get mad at these idiots who is not aware and not having enough protection and get pregnant and then abort a child. stupids they should be punished!
i have always believed that only GOD have the rights to create and destroy a living being and thats why iam against death sentence too!


REALLY.....i think you can't put blame on god in this matter... :lol:

ippidi solli than india illae population koodi pochu. :oops:

[rachel]

yeah, pple should be educated more abt contraception. and they should get used to using it. and they shouldn't feel that 'kudumba kattupadu', which is how they refer to the operation for the men, i think, is bad. i mean, even in the movies they make out as if it's a lowering and unmanly thing even if a very old man goes for this operation!

ellam vedhi bandha, manly has nothing to do with that!
God but something must be done, india has highest hiv patients and growing population! i would really love if the gov impose some new rules telling ppl should not have more than one kid(might sound weird, but there is nothing much to do). and prostitutes must be banned.

oh..come on....leave them alone.

[crazy]

i dont really know where i stand in this case
but i never favour abortion, but i know what is behind the reason for abortion. i get mad at these idiots who is not aware and not having enough protection and get pregnant and then abort a child. stupids they should be punished!
i have always believed that only GOD have the rights to create and destroy a living being and thats why iam against death sentence too!


REALLY.....i think you can't put blame on god in this matter... :lol:

ippidi solli than india illae population koodi pochu. :oops:

rachel u must have misunderstood actually i was talking about the importance of birth control i dont blame god!

[crazy]

[

ellam vedhi bandha, manly has nothing to do with that!
God but something must be done, india has highest hiv patients and growing population! i would really love if the gov impose some new rules telling ppl should not have more than one kid(might sound weird, but there is nothing much to do). and prostitutes must be banned.

oh..come on....leave them alone.
why u telling to leave them alone?

[rachel]

i think sometimes it may be hard to use birth control every time...i don't mean the permanent operation.

i watched a documentry on tv some months ago .some people lost their all babies in tsunami. so they wanted to have babies again
but they've already done some permanent operation to prevent getting pregnant...

so they could not get pregnant again .... :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:
it was so touching :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

[crazy]

i think sometimes it may be hard to use birth control every time...i don't mean the permanent operation.

i watched a documentry on tv some months ago .some people lost their all babies in tsunami. so they wanted to have babies again
but they've already done some permanent operation to prevent getting pregnant...

so they could not get pregnant again .... :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:
it was so touching :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

good lord if they were longing for baby why dont try for adoption?
lots of kids lost their parents, why not adopting one of those kids?

[rachel]

[

ellam vedhi bandha, manly has nothing to do with that!
God but something must be done, india has highest hiv patients and growing population! i would really love if the gov impose some new rules telling ppl should not have more than one kid(might sound weird, but there is nothing much to do). and prostitutes must be banned.

oh..come on....leave them alone.
why u telling to leave them alone?

why do you bring prostitutes here? :? :?
i don't know about india's prostitutes...but here they have nothing to do with population. :?

[Fire111999]

i think sometimes it may be hard to use birth control every time...i don't mean the permanent operation.

i watched a documentry on tv some months ago .some people lost their all babies in tsunami. so they wanted to have babies again
but they've already done some permanent operation to prevent getting pregnant...

so they could not get pregnant again .... :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:
it was so touching :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

good lord if they were longing for baby why dont try for adoption?
lots of kids lost their parents, why not adopting one of those kids?

yeah, i agree with you crazy. and besides, the operation is not permanent for guys.

[crazy]

[quote=crazy][
why do you bring prostitutes here? :? :?
i don't know about india's prostitutes...but here they have nothing to do with population. :?

rachel i was talking about HIV, thats why!?
perhaps that was the post before taht i guess, we were not just talking about abortion, but also about population and growing hiv rate!

[rachel]

yeah..but there are a lot of differences having own children and adapting others' children.....at the time they were thinking of their own children who died..it was so :cry: :cry:

[crazy]

yeah..but there are a lot of differences having own children and adapting others' children.....at the time they were thinking of their own children who died..it was so :cry: :cry:

well it depends upon ppl. i dont see any difference between an adopted child and a child of own! manam irundhaal maargam undhu!

[rachel]

yeah..but there are a lot of differences having own children and adapting others' children.....at the time they were thinking of their own children who died..it was so :cry: :cry:

well it depends upon ppl. i dont see any difference between an adopted child and a child of own! manam irundhaal maargam undhu!

but i see a lot of differences :evil:

[crazy]

yeah..but there are a lot of differences having own children and adapting others' children.....at the time they were thinking of their own children who died..it was so :cry: :cry:

well it depends upon ppl. i dont see any difference between an adopted child and a child of own! manam irundhaal maargam undhu!

but i see a lot of differences :evil:

as i said it differs from ppl to ppl. but i dont get the point how parents can treat them differently?!

[rachel]

as i said it differs from ppl to ppl. but i dont get the point how parents can treat them differently?!

parents won't treat them differently..but adopted children are not equal to blood children.

[crazy]

as i said it differs from ppl to ppl. but i dont get the point how parents can treat them differently?!

parents won't treat them differently..but adopted children are not equal to blood children.

in which way r they not equal?
well i dont think so!

[rachel]

as i said it differs from ppl to ppl. but i dont get the point how parents can treat them differently?!

parents won't treat them differently..but adopted children are not equal to blood children.

in which way r they not equal?
well i dont think so!

they are not your blood...they won't reflect your personalities(??)..

[crazy]

as i said it differs from ppl to ppl. but i dont get the point how parents can treat them differently?!

parents won't treat them differently..but adopted children are not equal to blood children.

in which way r they not equal?
well i dont think so!

they are not your blood...they won't reflect your personalities(??)..

haha :lol: :lol: most of us r not mahatma, so whats the big deal if they reflect ur personalities or not?!
even so characters just doesn't depends on DNA and blood, but also "valarpu". they might turn into a very better personality than adopted parents!

[rachel]

haha most of us r not mahatma, so whats the big deal if they reflect ur personalities or not?!
even so characters just doesn't depends on DNA and blood, but also "valarpu". they might turn into a very better personality than adopted parents!

ithu enna puthu kaathai :o no...

[crazy]

haha most of us r not mahatma, so whats the big deal if they reflect ur personalities or not?!
even so characters just doesn't depends on DNA and blood, but also "valarpu". they might turn into a very better personality than adopted parents!

ithu enna puthu kaathai :o no...

well u might have heard that our characters/personalities are already modified/ passed through our genes, but it also depends on sorroundings/environments !

[Fire111999]

no crazy, i agree with rachel. the fact tt biological children reflect ur personalities is sth that is very special!

[Fire111999]

haha most of us r not mahatma, so whats the big deal if they reflect ur personalities or not?!
even so characters just doesn't depends on DNA and blood, but also "valarpu". they might turn into a very better personality than adopted parents!

ithu enna puthu kaathai :o no...

well u might have heard that our characters/personalities are already modified/ passed through our genes, but it also depends on sorroundings/environments !

yeah that's true. but the some characteristics do come from the genes and that's when u see yourself in your child. and that is really nice!

[crazy]

no crazy, i agree with rachel. the fact tt biological children reflect ur personalities is sth that is very special!

what do u mean that they look like u, resembles u??????????
what personalities?

[rachel]

haha most of us r not mahatma, so whats the big deal if they reflect ur personalities or not?!
even so characters just doesn't depends on DNA and blood, but also "valarpu". they might turn into a very better personality than adopted parents!

ithu enna puthu kaathai :o no...

well u might have heard that our characters/personalities are already modified/ passed through our genes, but it also depends on sorroundings/environments !

yeah...environment takes part........it's good to adopt children from good families(when they make mistakes by accident)

[crazy]

[
yeah...environment takes part........it's good to adopt children from good families(when they make mistakes by accident)

what adopt from good families?
i always want to adopt children from very young age(from ashramam) maybe when they r baby, they wont feel any difference then and perhaps i might be able to feel the motherhood!

[Arthi]

Hi rachel...


rachel wrote:
yeah...environment takes part........it's good to adopt children from good families

Why are u giving importance to family... How that poor child can take responsibility if their parents are not good. Actually what do u mean by GOOD FAMILIES?

[rachel]

Hi rachel...


rachel wrote:
yeah...environment takes part........it's good to adopt children from good families

Why are u giving importance to family... How that poor child can take responsibility if their parents are not good. Actually what do u mean by GOOD FAMILIES?

i don't want to write about this more...:( because i don't want to write about innocent babies... :(

[Fire111999]

no crazy, i agree with rachel. the fact tt biological children reflect ur personalities is sth that is very special!

what do u mean that they look like u, resembles u??????????
what personalities?

not just looks wise. some characteristics as well.

[Arthi]

Hi rachel...


rachel wrote:
yeah...environment takes part........it's good to adopt children from good families

Why are u giving importance to family... How that poor child can take responsibility if their parents are not good. Actually what do u mean by GOOD FAMILIES?

i don't want to write about this more...:( because i don't want to write about innocent babies... :(

Whats wrong in writing abt innocent babies? :roll:.. u urself telling innocent babies... so nothing is wrong with that baby do u agree?

[crazy]

no crazy, i agree with rachel. the fact tt biological children reflect ur personalities is sth that is very special!

what do u mean that they look like u, resembles u??????????
what personalities?

not just looks wise. some characteristics as well.

fire as i asked before
naama ellam enna mahatmava, edho naanga periya annai theresa maadhiriyum enga nalla characteristics feature ellam adopted child kidha varadha maadhiri pesureenga? i still dont get!

[Fire111999]

no crazy, i am not talking abt good behaviours, habit etc. just some kind of characteristic stuff that u do. like pple say that i walk like my dad. and it's not cos i follow the way he walks. i just do that naturally.

[crazy]

well the happiness in bringing up a child(adopted) gives more happiness, rather than my child walks like me, is humble like me!

but even such qualities could be happen to see in adopted child! well i believe!

[Fire111999]

well the happiness in bringing up a child(adopted) gives more happiness, rather than my child walks like me, is humble like me!

but even such qualities could be happen to see in adopted child! well i believe!

yeah. that's true. but it's still sth special. though there is happiness in bringing up any child

[Arthi]

Avaru Enga Ellai Crazy...

To some extent the child inherits its parents characteristics... but no one can say that bcoz of its parents only it is good or Bad.
Its all depend upon ones society/environment and upbringing also/ not only parents :)

[crazy]

Avaru Enga Ellai Crazy...

To some extent the child inherits its parents characteristics... but no one can say that bcoz of its parents only it is good or Bad.
Its all depend upon ones society/environment and upbringing also/ not only parents :)
yes arthi!
i have a strong belief that i would bring up a good child(adopted). society plays a very important role, but also each and every one of has a special individuality which makes as different from ur parents or family!

[rachel]

la..la..la..i'm back :)

[Shakthiprabha.]

what is this thread bout?

somone explain me the jist :D

[Fire111999]

sorry, we got distracted away and started discussing abt adopted children.

anyway, u can read the first few posts. i would suggest you do. cos i've written more stuff that u might want to make remarks on.

even if u can't be bothered to read through everything, post ur opinions abt abortion. is it equivalent to murder? when can u consider a baby as a human baby, at the point of conception, after a few months of pregnancy or at the point of birth? when would you think it's ok to undergo an abortion, e.g. in cases of rape? or do you think that even in rape cases, the girl should give the baby up for adoption?

[Shakthiprabha.]

I suppose doctors can understand and advice as to WHEN THE life beat starts forming.

Its preferable to abort before the life force (I suppose thats when the child starts kicking etc......not sure) enters the womb.

MY PERSONAL CHOICE IS,

DO NOT ABORT......... human life is precious

[Shakthiprabha.]

rape cases.............

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

1. if its too late, then have the baby, leave it at some orphanage centres

2. else, I guess with 3 months or less aborting is wise :( :huh:

I feel bad to even suggest it.

[Fire111999]

I suppose doctors can understand and advice as to WHEN THE life beat starts forming.



u mean when the heart is developed? i think that is one of the first stuff to develop. i shall look it up and get back to you.


Its preferable to abort before the life force (I suppose thats when the child starts kicking etc......not sure) enters the womb.

i'm not sure what u mean by this.



MY PERSONAL CHOICE IS,

DO NOT ABORT......... human life is precious

yes, i agree. i think most pple would!

[Fire111999]

rape cases.............

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

1. if its too late, then have the baby, leave it at some orphanage centres

2. else, I guess with 3 months or less aborting is wise :( :huh:

I feel bad to even suggest it.

or give it up for adoption even when the baby is not born yet. pple are more willing to adopt new born babies than little kids.

and perhaps abortion is not too bad a choice. the girl has been wronged enuf by the rape. she doesn't the extra trouble of bearing the baby and the bad name(though i don't know why anyone should blame her, but some pple will)

another case whether abortion is ok will be for medical reasons(either the mother will not be able to handle it, or the baby is badly disformed, etc)

[Fire111999]

ok, to answer SP's question:



When does the heart begin to beat?

At 18 days [when the mother is only four days late for her first menstrual period], and by 21 days it is pumping, through a closed circulatory system, blood whose type is different from that of the mother. J.M. Tanner, G. R. Taylor, and the Editors of Time-Life Books, Growth, New York: Life Science Library, 1965, p.

When is the brain functioning?

Brain waves have been recorded at 40 days on the Electroencephalogram (EEG). H. Hamlin, "Life or Death by EEG," JAMA, Oct. 12, 1964, p. 120

[Fire111999]

[tscii:2fdf6ae23d]sth else i would like to add abt abortion and the emotional trauma after it. this is regarding girls who are raped and are pregnant because of that


She(the girl who was raped and is now pregnant) had a problem. Abortion permanently removes the problem. Or is there emotional aftermath?

In recent years it has become clear that these women can and do suffer from Post-Abortion Syndrome. When PAS does develop, a woman, so affected, can carry the same burdens of guilt, denial and depression that a woman who aborted a "love" baby often does. Why is this? At least two dynamics seem obvious. Remember that the rape was done to her. She was not responsible. She was the innocent victim and should bear no guilt. But, by contrast, the abortion will be done by her. She agreed to it. She was a volitional participant in a second act of violence: the killing of her own unborn child. And it is her own unborn child. This is the other inescapable fact of biology that probably is a factor in the development of PAS. The newly-conceived baby is certainly the "rapist’s child," but he or she is also her child, for half of the new baby’s genetic material came from her. She may try, but, inside of her, she cannot deny this biologic reality, however unwillingly it happened and however upsetting it may be. And so, to kill this little one by abortion is to participate in a violent, lethal act that destroys a baby who is partly her own flesh and blood. In loving charity, we should never remind her of this.

But we don’t have to, for she knows it instinctively and all of her maternal feelings may well rebel when faced with being a part of this killing.



so you see, even someone who doesn't want the child, can go through this emotional trauma. because she will be destroying a part of herself! and it doesn't matter at which stage of the pregnancy the abortion is done. the mother does not have to form a conscious attachment to the baby. there is an internal link that she can't deny.

this is actually an anwer to an earlier question.

[/tscii:2fdf6ae23d]

[Priyankak]

2day, many women arent showin hesitan 2 abort da child. ooh gosh. All women should stop doin this. :oops:

[Fire111999]

2day, many women arent showin hesitan 2 abort da child. ooh gosh. All women should stop doin this. :oops:

i'm hoping this thread might make a bit of a difference!

[Priyankak]

2day, many women arent showin hesitan 2 abort da child. ooh gosh. All women should stop doin this. :oops:

i'm hoping this thread might make a bit of a difference!
yup//

[Hulkster]

Why kill a child who is in no wrong for his/her father did?
Why must it suffer the sins of the father?
If aborting every child born of rape is the answer, not only have we killed the child but we also have killed the mother.

Think this way, If the mother brings up the child as showers it with love and care, her trauma will lessen and maybe the child will grow up to become a powerful man/woman in the society....always think of any child given to you as the gift of god...aborting the child is the same as destroying god himself.

[rachel]

e.g. in cases of rape or do you think that even in rape cases, the girl should give the baby up for adoption?

in cases of rape she should abort it as soon as possible..if she develops sentiment, she is the biggest fool.

for adoption..who is going to raise a rapist's baby?

may be you :roll:

[rachel]

I suppose doctors can understand and advice as to WHEN THE life beat starts forming.

Its preferable to abort before the life force (I suppose thats when the child starts kicking etc......not sure) enters the womb.

MY PERSONAL CHOICE IS,

DO NOT ABORT......... human life is precious

too much sentiment in life is a disaster :roll:

[rachel]

so you see, even someone who doesn't want the child, can go through this emotional trauma. because she will be destroying a part of herself! and it doesn't matter at which stage of the pregnancy the abortion is done. the mother does not have to form a conscious attachment to the baby. there is an internal link that she can't deny.

no..i don't think so...please stop these kind of sentiments.. :?

[rachel]

2day, many women arent showin hesitan 2 abort da child. ooh gosh. All women should stop doin this. :oops:


guys should take responsibility.... :oops:

[Hulkster]

Rachel you seem to be very pertubed by guys...dunt mind me asking but any experiences that have made you bear such hatred or you have seen friends' life destroyed the way?.....Anyway Rachel remember that the child has nothing to do with the rapist except for the biological part....tell me....will you kill a child who just yearns for motherly love just because he was not conceived through consensual sex? Its like killing a disabled person just becos you dunt like the person being disabled.

[rachel]

Rachel you seem to be very pertubed by guys...dunt mind me asking but any experiences that have made you bear such hatred or you have seen friends' life destroyed the way?.....Anyway Rachel remember that the child has nothing to do with the rapist except for the biological part....tell me....will you kill a child who just yearns for motherly love just because he was not conceived through consensual sex? Its like killing a disabled person just becos you dunt like the person being disabled.

yes..ofcousrse..no second thoughts....don't say child...don't say baby..it's just embryo

but it's good to do it as soon as possible.....i won't do if it's grown..

i don't know the meaning of 'consensual'.

[Alien]

i don't know the meaning of 'consensual'.
U may check it rachel ... ok here .... "by mutual consent"

[rachel]

it's not about baby..it's about unwanted pregnancy.

1. if somebody became by rape

2.if you are so young (age 13---19). i know a girl who had baby
when she was 16. now nobody wants to marry her... :cry:

3.if there are too much kids in the family...

it's not wrong to do abortion :roll:

[Hulkster]

Rachel neenga kolvethu oru bommai ellei...swasamum unarchigalum konda oru kulunthai....theemaiyai azhikalam...kaduvul kodutha parisugalai azhikalama?.....The pain of a mother can ring throughout her mind and body when she kills a life she has been blessed to bear whether through happiness or sorrow. Its easy to just kill it...its just a embryo.....but think it like this.


God was forming the shape of his child and had chosen a mother to bear it...just before he could finish shaping it, the devil arises and steals away his creation...swearing that none of his creation will ever be alive....abortion is like a devil....it steals away alot of god's creations...and as a result hurts gods himself.

Appan seincha paavathukku kulunthai enna seiya mudiyum? Ithu sonaal solvethukku easy seiyuruthukku kashtam nu solvaanga....yeppadiyo ponga pa....abortion thaan bathil na approm ellarum sudugadilae saga vendiyethu thaan.

[hi]

Hulkster,

It's better to abort baby through rape... as there is high chance of getting aversion towards the baby.. due to that incident..

still it differ frm ppl to ppl.. u can't except yr future-hubby to shower love towards that kid..

[Hulkster]

The day people view children as creations of god then will they stop referring to that kid as that kid and this kid....if you can bring up a kid with good values...no matter what type of tyrant the father was the character will be controlled....abortion is like a devil....everytime a abortion is done the mothers life is destroyed...approm purushan kuda pillaiyai peithukitaalum...yeppeiyavethu antha kulunthai nybagam varum..abortion if the child endangers the mothers life is accepted...abortion if there is too much children is accepted...but abortion cos of rape is too harsh on the poor child....young mothers rarely abort their child cause they are not willing to destroy their first born child.....usually they abort if the parents or friends force them to....in US abortions are very rare as in the mother wanted to abort thru her own willingness....and the kids that are product of the rape have not been shown hatred...instead they are showered with love and care and some of them are in respectable positions in the society.

[Alien]

it's not about baby..it's about unwanted pregnancy.

1. if somebody became by rape
it's not wrong to do abortion :roll:
I agree .... I don't buy , child is a gift of GOD , in this case .....

[Thunderbird]

2day, many women arent showin hesitan 2 abort da child. ooh gosh. All women should stop doin this. :oops:


guys should take responsibility.... :oops:

women have no responsibility?

:roll:

[Hulkster]

Both men and women have responsiblity.....but it is unfair pushing responsibility to a woman...Do you realise a woman has to tolerate the pain of bearing a child and also aborting it? Kulunthai petral athu inba vali , azhithaal athu vazhkai vali. If it is like abortion in the case of planned families and such stuff...both have to think over the case..but in case like rape or forced pregancies(an example would be of the bosnian war 1992 where muslim women were forced to bear serb babies as part of ethnical cleansing)..There is no responsiblity but more of tedious decision making.(Can be a life and death matter due to the pain suffered by the mother).

[Fire111999]

so you see, even someone who doesn't want the child, can go through this emotional trauma. because she will be destroying a part of herself! and it doesn't matter at which stage of the pregnancy the abortion is done. the mother does not have to form a conscious attachment to the baby. there is an internal link that she can't deny.

no..i don't think so...please stop these kind of sentiments.. :?

it's not sentiment. i was just emphasising what is medically true as u can see from my quote in the same post! that's what i meant by it's not a conscious link with the baby that the mother develops. it's an internal link that she can't change!

[Fire111999]

i just reposted this post so u could see what i'm talking abt

[tscii:3e87770fed]sth else i would like to add abt abortion and the emotional trauma after it. this is regarding girls who are raped and are pregnant because of that


She(the girl who was raped and is now pregnant) had a problem. Abortion permanently removes the problem. Or is there emotional aftermath?

In recent years it has become clear that these women can and do suffer from Post-Abortion Syndrome. When PAS does develop, a woman, so affected, can carry the same burdens of guilt, denial and depression that a woman who aborted a "love" baby often does. Why is this? At least two dynamics seem obvious. Remember that the rape was done to her. She was not responsible. She was the innocent victim and should bear no guilt. But, by contrast, the abortion will be done by her. She agreed to it. She was a volitional participant in a second act of violence: the killing of her own unborn child. And it is her own unborn child. This is the other inescapable fact of biology that probably is a factor in the development of PAS. The newly-conceived baby is certainly the "rapist’s child," but he or she is also her child, for half of the new baby’s genetic material came from her. She may try, but, inside of her, she cannot deny this biologic reality, however unwillingly it happened and however upsetting it may be. And so, to kill this little one by abortion is to participate in a violent, lethal act that destroys a baby who is partly her own flesh and blood. In loving charity, we should never remind her of this.

But we don’t have to, for she knows it instinctively and all of her maternal feelings may well rebel when faced with being a part of this killing.



so you see, even someone who doesn't want the child, can go through this emotional trauma. because she will be destroying a part of herself! and it doesn't matter at which stage of the pregnancy the abortion is done. the mother does not have to form a conscious attachment to the baby. there is an internal link that she can't deny.

this is actually an anwer to an earlier question.

[/tscii:3e87770fed]

[Fire111999]

e.g. in cases of rape or do you think that even in rape cases, the girl should give the baby up for adoption?

in cases of rape she should abort it as soon as possible..if she develops sentiment, she is the biggest fool.

for adoption..who is going to raise a rapist's baby?

may be you :roll:

they r pple who wouldn't mind! when we did our project, we heard of some girls giving up their child for adoption even before it is born.

[Fire111999]

Why kill a child who is in no wrong for his/her father did?
Why must it suffer the sins of the father?
If aborting every child born of rape is the answer, not only have we killed the child but we also have killed the mother.

Think this way, If the mother brings up the child as showers it with love and care, her trauma will lessen and maybe the child will grow up to become a powerful man/woman in the society....always think of any child given to you as the gift of god...aborting the child is the same as destroying god himself.

but what abt the mother? why does she have to give up her life to give birth to and bring up the child?

[Fire111999]

Rachel you seem to be very pertubed by guys...dunt mind me asking but any experiences that have made you bear such hatred or you have seen friends' life destroyed the way?.....Anyway Rachel remember that the child has nothing to do with the rapist except for the biological part....tell me....will you kill a child who just yearns for motherly love just because he was not conceived through consensual sex? Its like killing a disabled person just becos you dunt like the person being disabled.

yes..ofcousrse..no second thoughts....don't say child...don't say baby..it's just embryo

but it's good to do it as soon as possible.....i won't do if it's grown..

i don't know the meaning of 'consensual'.

so we come back to the question of when do u consider the embryo as you call it a baby. pls do answer this. thanks.

[Hulkster]

Embryo is the shape of the baby...and to me generally it is still a baby...some people try to abort it saying they are aborting the embryo but they cannot avoid the fact that it is still a baby about to be shaped.

[Shakthiprabha.]

Bear the child, leave it at an orphanage.

why should the child spoil her future?
if later she finds her lover or husband big-hearted to accept the child as their own, they can bring back the child.

else........ just take care of the child as god motehr or parent.

[Hulkster]

Even if the the mother lets go of the child, in a way she is setting herself to post trauma that can even lead to death. By bringing up the child lovingly, the mother will let go of her pain slowly and if the child grows up to be of a person who makes her mother proud, the rape incident will be like a kuppai in the kuppai box to her....compared to letting the mother get herself ripped apart both mentall and physically by the abortion and the rape and by this experience she might not be able to bear children again or want to bear.

This cases are not rare and in wars where rape was used as a form of ethnic cleansing, after abortion most mothers did not marry or if they were married, choose to bear a child due to the trauma they suffered.

[Hulkster]

Ungalakaga oru arivurai...oru valiyai azhikka onnuru valiyai yedukka mudiyaathu....oru valiyai azhikanum na antha valiyal vantha vethanaiyai inbamaga ninaithu poraada vendum.

[Fire111999]

The day people view children as creations of god then will they stop referring to that kid as that kid and this kid....if you can bring up a kid with good values...no matter what type of tyrant the father was the character will be controlled....abortion is like a devil....everytime a abortion is done the mothers life is destroyed...approm purushan kuda pillaiyai peithukitaalum...yeppeiyavethu antha kulunthai nybagam varum..abortion if the child endangers the mothers life is accepted...abortion if there is too much children is accepted...but abortion cos of rape is too harsh on the poor child....young mothers rarely abort their child cause they are not willing to destroy their first born child.....usually they abort if the parents or friends force them to....in US abortions are very rare as in the mother wanted to abort thru her own willingness....and the kids that are product of the rape have not been shown hatred...instead they are showered with love and care and some of them are in respectable positions in the society.

i agree that the mother will think abt the child sometimes. but as to it being too harsh on the unborn child and causing emotional trauma for herself, isn't it choosing b/w the two evils. does the mother destroy her life to give birth and bring up her child or does she destroy her unwanted child before birth and suffer a bit of emotional trauma which will lessen as time goes by? and she will already be emotionally affected by the rape. she can just consider this to be part of that!

esp in india, she will go through so much pain being a single mother(even though it is through no fault of her own)! or even if she carries it to term to give it up for adoption, she will be ostracised during the pregnancy time. so isn't it a lesser evil to abort the child? the most she can do will be to give it up for adoption and that itself will be a great thing that she'll be doing. some one else has no right to tell her to bring up her child or even to give birth to her child in cases of rape!

and don't talk abt america! they've got so many single mothers there. is it the same in india? (i think talking abt india is more relevant for most of us here; we want to talk abt our country!)

[Fire111999]

Embryo is the shape of the baby...and to me generally it is still a baby...some people try to abort it saying they are aborting the embryo but they cannot avoid the fact that it is still a baby about to be shaped.

when do u believe a baby is alive? at the point of conception?

[Fire111999]

Bear the child, leave it at an orphanage.

why should the child spoil her future?
if later she finds her lover or husband big-hearted to accept the child as their own, they can bring back the child.

else........ just take care of the child as god motehr or parent.

i agree SP. but even to take the decision of bearing the child is sth great esp in india. cos she will be ostracised for her pregnancy even if she is not to be balmed for it! so i think that outsiders have no right to tell the girl that she should not abort the child. but it could be recommended to her that she gives the child for adoption. but the choice has to be made by the girl!

[Fire111999]

Even if the the mother lets go of the child, in a way she is setting herself to post trauma that can even lead to death. By bringing up the child lovingly, the mother will let go of her pain slowly and if the child grows up to be of a person who makes her mother proud, the rape incident will be like a kuppai in the kuppai box to her....compared to letting the mother get herself ripped apart both mentall and physically by the abortion and the rape and by this experience she might not be able to bear children again or want to bear.

This cases are not rare and in wars where rape was used as a form of ethnic cleansing, after abortion most mothers did not marry or if they were married, choose to bear a child due to the trauma they suffered.

yeah, so the mother has no other life than to take care of this child despite the evils of being a single mother. what abt her own dreams abt her future? already she has been affected by the rape. and now she has to further give up her life and for a child that was forced unto her in the most horrible of ways! u have no right to say that! if she decides to devote her life for that child, that'll be her decision. not one forced on her cos abortion id not an option!

and abortion is quite a simple process and she would retain her ability to bear children. though i admit that they say that abortion is riskier than giving birth, isn't giving birth extremely safe nowadays and perhaps it's only illegal abortions tt tend to be unsafe.

and if she doesn't wish to bear any children, how can u say it's cos of the abortion and not cos of the rape? she has been emotionally affected cos of the rape. she can consider the emotional trauma of the abortion to be part and parcel of the rape and get on with her life the best she can. some girls would even commit suicide cos of a rape. and you expect a girl to bring up the child!

[Shakthiprabha.]

Bear the child, leave it at an orphanage.

why should the child spoil her future?
if later she finds her lover or husband big-hearted to accept the child as their own, they can bring back the child.

else........ just take care of the child as god motehr or parent.

i agree SP. but even to take the decision of bearing the child is sth great esp in india. cos she will be ostracised for her pregnancy even if she is not to be balmed for it! so i think that outsiders have no right to tell the girl that she should not abort the child. but it could be recommended to her that she gives the child for adoption. but the choice has to be made by the girl!

yup I agree with u fully.

In india, still the concepts like virginity for women is of utmost importance :) Some I feel may agree and let loose if she happen to lose it as a result of rape.

[Fire111999]

Even if the the mother lets go of the child, in a way she is setting herself to post trauma that can even lead to death.

r u talking abt adoption? oh god, pls, she won't get emotional trauma leading to death for giving her child up for adoption! pls get your facts right! she might feel unable to give up her child. but if she does, she's not going to have severe emotional trauma becos of that. it's only in abortion that she might suffer emotional trauma cos she is destroying a part of herself as i've already mentioned.

[Hulkster]

Neruppu madam, im talking if the girl tries to abort if she gets pregnant because of rape...if you talk about girls committing suicide due to rape, thats a different matter from abortion.

You seem to be interested in the girl's welfare as in her goals and achievements, of her dreams and you fear that the presence of a unwanted child might destroy her dreams. I take it that this is why you refuse bringing up a child.

ostracisation in the society is a topic which both I and You (Men and Women) have to stand up and fight to prove the society the needs and rights of a woman should be equal to those given to men. If every girl in India decides to abort the child due to fear of ostracisation,fear of not being accepted, fear of dreams going down the drain, somehow this fear will also add to the post abortion trauma and maybe destroy her dreams completely. If the woman can withstand the trauma of abortion and still pursue her dreams, get married...I cant see why she also can withstand the birth of a child and grow the child up with the support of a friend or relative and pursue her dreams at the same time. This is possible and its not a rare case. If not for the society's atrocities and harshness on women maybe the trauma of rape will decrease and they will not fear bringing up their children.

[Hulkster]

No not adoption...yennodeiya let go is a very polite and nice term of aborting a child....sorry but im do not like the sound of abortion or termination of child as it affects me deeply(Do not know why)..Athaan

[Fire111999]

Neruppu madam, im talking if the girl tries to abort if she gets pregnant because of rape...if you talk about girls committing suicide due to rape, thats a different matter from abortion.

no, i brought in the topic of committing suicide to emphasise on the fact that rape itself can cause severe emotional trauma!


You seem to be interested in the girl's welfare as in her goals and achievements, of her dreams and you fear that the presence of a unwanted child might destroy her dreams. I take it that this is why you refuse bringing up a child.
definitely! the girl is also important. in fact, more important than the unborn child because the child is not born yet and does not have any expectations abt its life. this is otherwise with the girl.


ostracisation in the society is a topic which both I and You (Men and Women) have to stand up and fight to prove the society the needs and rights of a woman should be equal to those given to men. If every girl in India decides to abort the child due to fear of ostracisation,fear of not being accepted, fear of dreams going down the drain, somehow this fear will also add to the post abortion trauma and maybe destroy her dreams completely. If the woman can withstand the trauma of abortion and still pursue her dreams, get married...I cant see why she also can withstand the birth of a child and grow the child up with the support of a friend or relative and pursue her dreams at the same time. This is possible and its not a rare case. If not for the society's atrocities and harshness on women maybe the trauma of rape will decrease and they will not fear bringing up their children.

very good! we should change society! i'm with u on that!

but what i'm saying is that abortion should still be a choice for that girl. she could choose to have the child, give it up for adoption, etc. but she must have the choice to do abortion. no one else has any right to force this child onto her!

[Hulkster]

Neruppu madam neenga summa oru soundu vidunga....odanae anniyan stylae societyai maaturaen....:D..maybe i have seen so much horrific murders of babies by people that it has affected me so much to ignore the pain of bringing up a child....partly apologise to all girls for that matter..but do not think i dunt understand the pain of a woman...i have also seen the pain of a woman which is why im asking for both men and women to fight for a woman's rights and needs in the society.

[Fire111999]

Neruppu madam neenga summa oru soundu vidunga....odanae anniyan stylae societyai maaturaen....:D..maybe i have seen so much horrific murders of babies by people that it has affected me so much to ignore the pain of bringing up a child....partly apologise to all girls for that matter..but do not think i dunt understand the pain of a woman...i have also seen the pain of a woman which is why im asking for both men and women to fight for a woman's rights and needs in the society.

ah... i wasn't being sarcastic. i really am with you to change society!

but i also feel that it's ultimately the girl's choice! (in a rape case) i'm not supporting pple who think of abortion as an alternative to contraception!

[Hulkster]

Sarcastic nu sollulae ada neenga onnu...i was stating to the others who could not read my intentions....contraception the way they make it sound is very ridiculous....it is like they believe contraception will make you unable to conceive a child born of rape and that might reduce the trauma of rape....rape oru plastic bottle paarunga...appadiyae thookiyerivethukku glassu pa glassu...odeinchaalum athu kutthum!...thats for contraception in cases of rape and forced pregnancy.

[Fire111999]

Sarcastic nu sollulae ada neenga onnu...i was stating to the others who could not read my intentions....contraception the way they make it sound is very ridiculous....it is like they believe contraception will make you unable to conceive a child born of rape and that might reduce the trauma of rape....rape oru plastic bottle paarunga...appadiyae thookiyerivethukku glassu pa glassu...odeinchaalum athu kutthum!...thats for contraception in cases of rape and forced pregnancy.

neenga enna solreengannu theriyala. romba confusion. why are u mixing rape and contraception? when did anyone say that pregancy due to rape can be avoided by contraception?

[Hulkster]

Was reminded by an article which recorded the views of cotnraception: Is it a good way of preventing rape pregnancies? and the views just angered me. So was stating them above. Theres alot of things related to violence against women,abortion and all these stuff which i have if compiled....patthu varusham yedukkum.

[Fire111999]

oh, ok. naan romba confuse aiyten!

but anyway, back to the topic, a girl who is pregnant due to rape should be given the option of abortion. it can only be recommended to her to give birth to the child and then give it up for adoption or bring up the child herself. but this should not be forced onto her. and if she decides to give birth to the child, i think she should be respected greatly!

[Hulkster]

I agree with that whole heartedly.......although i hope all girls prove to the soceity they can raise a child...valga thaikulamae!

[Fire111999]

ok, a question to u: when do u consider that the baby is alive and a human being? at the point of conception, some time later marked by some development of the fetus, or at the point of birth?

[Hulkster]

It is alive at the point of birth...the next ten months is actually the creating of the shape of the baby's body..and body as you know is nothing without life...so it is at the point of the birth.

[Fire111999]

i think u mean at the point of conception, meaning at the point of fertilisation.

[bingleguy]

hey guys ... indha thread la enna nadakkudhunnu oru 2 lines la yaaraavadhu solreengala ? hulk ?? fire ??

[Fire111999]

naan solren!

read the first few posts if u have time.

even if u can't be bothered to read through, post ur opinions abt abortion. is it equivalent to murder? when can u consider a baby as a human baby, at the point of conception, after a few months of pregnancy or at the point of birth? when would you think it's ok to undergo an abortion, e.g. in cases of rape? or do you think that even in rape cases, the girl should give the baby up for adoption? what abt medical reasons?

[bingleguy]

Well, it really depends on situations ..... exactly as u mentioned, in such cases, she might prefer an abortion instead !
well u can ask what ever it is ... it is killing a baby... ys i do agree ... but ....

[Fire111999]

yes..... do continue.

[bingleguy]

well what else can she do in such a situation !?

[Fire111999]

well what else can she do in such a situation !?

if u're talking abt a rape case, then she could decide to give the baby up for adoption or even bring up the child herself. but i feel that she should be given the option to abort the child. but do u think that is murder? when do u think the baby has a life or when do u think the baby can be considered as a human being?

[bingleguy]

tis definitely not a murder....
as such karu uruvaagum bodhu dhaan uyir nnu yellarum ninaikiraanga... illai ... even semen or ovule is uyir.... appadinna adhu veliyila vara oru oru dhadavaiyum uyir pogudhae ... ? appo adhuvum murder dhaanae

its her option ... to keep it or abort it ... namba society romba sharp.... they will never support what they want ... but when it happens ... they stand against it first !

[Fire111999]

semen and ovule r only potential life. they are not life in themselves. because they can't develop to survive on their own. but a fetus can develop to become a self sufficient human being!

[bingleguy]

not exactly.... though tis potential ... it is a form of life ... infact the primary form of life ... it has to join to form a complete readily formed foetus ... still we consider it as a form of life !

[Arthi]

In my view Abortion is a mere murder only. Keep aside all exceptionational cases like rape abnormal growth of the baby etc.

In normal scenario abortion is a murder only. If the couple don't want to have a baby they can very well avoid it.

[Fire111999]

not exactly.... though tis potential ... it is a form of life ... infact the primary form of life ... it has to join to form a complete readily formed foetus ... still we consider it as a form of life !

no. i believe it's only a potential to life. as i said it cannot survive on its own. so can't be considered life.

[bingleguy]

true... even to me i shld say that ... other than exceptional situations ... ppl shld not go for abortion !

[bingleguy]

what is a complete object without a potential, FIRE ?

[Fire111999]

In my view Abortion is a mere murder only. Keep aside all exceptionational cases like rape abnormal growth of the baby etc.

In normal scenario abortion is a murder only. If the couple don't want to have a baby they can very well avoid it.

ok, so you consider it murder other then in cases like rape, or medical reasons like abnormal growth of the baby? and i guess u would include life-threatening situation to the mother as another exceptional case?

i agree that abortion is not an alternative to contraception. but what abt when contraception fails?

[Fire111999]

what is a complete object without a potential, FIRE ?

of course, u can't create the fetus without the ovule and the semen. but that doesn't mean that the semen and ovule are life themselves. they are only the potential to create life. egg, butter, flour and milk are not a cake. they can only be used to bake a cake!

[Fire111999]

true... even to me i shld say that ... other than exceptional situations ... ppl shld not go for abortion !

yes, of course!

[bingleguy]

well there is a point FIRE .... but i am sayin that basement is an important factor in a bldg ... what is a bldg without a basement ... this is wat am trying to explain

[Fire111999]

ok, but the foundation can't be considered the building, right? it can only be the building base of the building!

[Fire111999]

oh, but i agree that they are important. so no more arguments on that. back to the topic pls. thanks :)

[bingleguy]

well ... ok ......

abortion is killing the foetus ...
i strongly disagree killing foetus at the later stage ... when they come to know the gender ! thats cold blooded murder

[Fire111999]

well ... ok ......

abortion is killing the foetus ...
i strongly disagree killing foetus at the later stage ... when they come to know the gender ! thats cold blooded murder

ok, so what marks this later stage, the development of the sex organs? i'll check up when this happens and get back to you.

[bingleguy]

ys ... when doctors can really say the gender of a foetus ... this happens when the baby starts growing ... not sure in which month ...
probably by some tests they can even say it quite earlier i think !

[Fire111999]

ok, haven't managed to get any info on the sex organs yet. but just wanted to note sth else:

After about two months, all the systems of the baby have been formed, at least in a rudimentary way. From then on, development of the fetus, as it is now called, is primarily a matter of growth and minor structural modifications.

[Fire111999]

[tscii:10afa0e9fb]ok, this is what i got. hope this helps


Sexual glands and ducts appear in the embryo in the second month of its development, but they are neither male nor female. Sexual differentiation proceeds as follows:

The reproductive organs first develop in the same form for both males and females: internally there are two undifferentiated gonads and two pairs of parallel ducts (Wolffian and Müllerian ducts); externally there is a genital protrusion with a groove (urethral groove) below it, the groove being flanked by two folds (urethral folds). On either side of the genital protrusion and groove are two ridgelike swellings (labioscrotal swellings). . . . If testes develop, the hormone they secrete causes the Müllerian duct to degenerate and almost vanish and causes the Wolffian duct to elaborate into the sperm-carrying tubes and related organs (the vas deferens, epididymis, and seminal vesicles, for example). If ovaries develop, the Wolffian duct deteriorates, and the Müllerian duct elaborates to form the fallopian tubes, uterus, and part of the vagina. The external genitalia simultaneously change. The genital protrusion becomes either a penis or clitoris. In the female the groove below the clitoris stays open to form the vulva, and the folds on either side of the groove become the inner lips of the vulva (the labia minora). In the male these folds grow together, converting the groove into the urethral tube of the penis. The ridgelike swellings on either side remain apart in the female and constitute the large labia (labia majora), but in the male they grow together to form the scrotal sac into which the testes subsequently descend.

The development of the embryo and fetus in the womb recapitulates the past development of mankind,* with the first four months corresponding in several respects to the first four root-races preceding our present (fifth) root-race. External genitalia appear in the seventh or eighth week but in a primitive, sexless condition; they become recognizably male or female only in the second half of the third month, corresponding to the later third root-race.

i've bolded the relevant parts.[/quote][/tscii:10afa0e9fb]

[Hulkster]

Aaha...neruppu madam...neenga keitha questionukku bathil kodutthaen...athu eppo unnum konjam sub modify aagi 4 pages ku odiyacha?...enimel kelvikkae bathil kodukku mattein pa saamy.....Well seriously, during the point of conception or birth, life is already inside the womb and the rest is the development of the shape of the body during the ten months.

(Note: The giving of life is a mystery...nobody knows how it comes into existence into a baby or how it looks like...this is one of the powers of GOD where he cleverly hides the formation of the spirit/life/soul from the human eye and no matter how much science can go into the creation of the body..they can get the facts of how a baby is created and possibly analyse where the life comes only when the baby has his organs developed but never can they find how it actually comes into the baby...ithu therinchaal namma immortalism yeppeiyo kandupidichiruppom)

[Fire111999]

i'm not arguing with u abt that. i was just clarifying that u meant at the point of conception (not the point of birth, which will be 10 months after conception)

[crazy]

u know what ppl? i dont think there is any point in discussing such things? abortion is some sort of dilemma?!!
when u r in one side it seems fair and when u r in the other end it seems unfair? heaven knows why abortion is acceptable or not?!
i dont know whether there is anything more to say! if i got pregnant and aborted, maybe i can come here and discuss my point of view and reasons then!
i think i had enough and iam leaving!
bye! :wave:

[Fire111999]

hey crazy, before you go:

before u can make any decision abt abortion u need to know more abt it. so do ask questions at least if u don't want to post ur opinions!

[crazy]

hey crazy, before you go:

before u can make any decision abt abortion u need to know more abt it. so do ask questions at least if u don't want to post ur opinions!
i think i know enough(dont mistake that iam superior) if i have some que in future i will come and ask! :P

[Hulkster]

Aaah vendam crazy raasathi...neenga questions keithaal neruppu madam ungalai thovaichi kilichiduvaanga....approm abortion endru oru vaarthai unga dictionarylirinthu azhikka vendiyethu thaan...:lol:

[Fire111999]

Aaah vendam crazy raasathi...neenga questions keithaal neruppu madam ungalai thovaichi kilichiduvaanga....approm abortion endru oru vaarthai unga dictionarylirinthu azhikka vendiyethu thaan...:lol:

not funny! i am not against abortion for rape cases and medical reasons. and i really want to make pple to know more abt abortion before they judge pple or make any decision. pls don't make jokes here. it's a serious topic!

[crazy]

Aaah vendam crazy raasathi...neenga questions keithaal neruppu madam ungalai thovaichi kilichiduvaanga....approm abortion endru oru vaarthai unga dictionarylirinthu azhikka vendiyethu thaan...:lol:

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: then i might be able to justify why i aborted? and u all can come and backing me up? :lol: :wink: wont u?

[Fire111999]

Aaah vendam crazy raasathi...neenga questions keithaal neruppu madam ungalai thovaichi kilichiduvaanga....approm abortion endru oru vaarthai unga dictionarylirinthu azhikka vendiyethu thaan...:lol:

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: then i might be able to justify why i aborted? and u all can come and backing me up? :lol: :wink: wont u?

i don't understand!

[Hulkster]

Neruppu madam seri seri...seriousa sonaal yethirupu varathu joke sonaalum yethirpu varathu....wokay crazy...it is best you know abortion properly as it is a very traumatic process and can be lethal....try to read other incidents of abortion and see the pain they went through..im not trying to make you cry..but trying to get you to understand. Best of luck anyway :thumbsup:

[crazy]

Neruppu madam seri seri...seriousa sonaal yethirupu varathu joke sonaalum yethirpu varathu....wokay crazy...it is best you know abortion properly as it is a very traumatic process and can be lethal....try to read other incidents of abortion and see the pain they went through..im not trying to make you cry..but trying to get you to understand. Best of luck anyway :thumbsup:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: hulkster u r saying as if iam going to abort(iam not married yet, not pregnat yet, then how can i abort..................who shall i abort?!)

[Fire111999]

serious-a sonna enga ethirppu varuthunnu solreenga? it's just a discussion.

and don't keep saying abortion can be lethal. u make it sound like the operation is dangerous. it's only that the post-abortion emotional trauma can be severe and might lead to the girl committing suicide. and this doesn't always happen as well. different pple are affected in different degrees. some don't have significant trauma at all.

[Fire111999]

Neruppu madam seri seri...seriousa sonaal yethirupu varathu joke sonaalum yethirpu varathu....wokay crazy...it is best you know abortion properly as it is a very traumatic process and can be lethal....try to read other incidents of abortion and see the pain they went through..im not trying to make you cry..but trying to get you to understand. Best of luck anyway :thumbsup:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: hulkster u r saying as if iam going to abort(iam not married yet, not pregnat yet, then how can i abort..................who shall i abort?!)

yes, i also don't understand what he is saying. but u need to know abt abortion before u form an opinion on abortion. and before you judge pple.

[crazy]

Neruppu madam seri seri...seriousa sonaal yethirupu varathu joke sonaalum yethirpu varathu....wokay crazy...it is best you know abortion properly as it is a very traumatic process and can be lethal....try to read other incidents of abortion and see the pain they went through..im not trying to make you cry..but trying to get you to understand. Best of luck anyway :thumbsup:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: hulkster u r saying as if iam going to abort(iam not married yet, not pregnat yet, then how can i abort..................who shall i abort?!)

yes, i also don't understand what he is saying. but u need to know abt abortion before u form an opinion on abortion. and before you judge pple.
i havent judged anybody and not even formed an opinion, i kind of following the path of middels!
my opinion............... i have posted them already!

[Hulkster]

Athu naalae thaan can be lethal sonnein....because of what it can lead to..the operation is not really of any high risk. Although there are people who can handle abortion very well...i thought of heightening of what abortion can do so that people dunt always use it as an option in all cases.

No crazy i dunt mean that...i was asking you to read them so that you can understand abortion better..you know like attaining general knowledge antha mathiri..

[Fire111999]

Athu naalae thaan can be lethal sonnein....because of what it can lead to..the operation is not really of any high risk. Although there are people who can handle abortion very well...i thought of heightening of what abortion can do so that people dunt always use it as an option in all cases.


yes. but highlight panrathu don't do it like this in a vague manner! pple have to know more abt abortion. be as explicit as possible. don't make vague statements!

[Fire111999]

yeah, i know crazy, u think that abortion is NOT an alternative to contraception and that pple should be educated on this. correct?

[crazy]

yeah, i know crazy, u think that abortion is NOT an alternative to contraception and that pple should be educated on this. correct?

yeah yeah! but if abortion is only alternative, then iam not against it either!(it depends on facts)

[Fire111999]

yeah, i know crazy, u think that abortion is NOT an alternative to contraception and that pple should be educated on this. correct?

yeah yeah! but if abortion is only alternative, then iam not against it either!(it depends on facts)

ok.

[Hulkster]

I do know what is abortion and what it does but i am particularly against it except when the baby threatens the mother in a life threatening situation or any other complicated situations.....you can safely say i have a deep hatred for it too so thats why i make it sound like that(prejudice) despite knowing that abortion is nowhere near life threatening.

[Fire111999]

I do know what is abortion and what it does but i am particularly against it except when the baby threatens the mother in a life threatening situation or any other complicated situations.....you can safely say i have a deep hatred for it too so thats why i make it sound like that(prejudice) despite knowing that abortion is nowhere near life threatening.

but u can't let ur prejudice against it influence the way u represent the facts. pple need to know the facts.

[Hulkster]

Naan reasonai sonnein....confuse aagama keilungalae neruppu madam..aiyo aiyo....enimel facts solluvaen kavalai padathaenge

[Fire111999]

ok ok.

[Fire111999]

ok. decided to post some more info. this is from a website that is against abortion, so it is phrased in a biased way. but the facts are correct i think.


When does the unborn baby's heart begin to beat?

The heartbeat begins between the eighteenth and twenty-fifth day.

When does the brain begin to function?

Electrical brain waves have been recorded as early as forty days.

How early can a baby survive outside the mother's womb?

Currently, twenty weeks is considered the accepted minimum. However, this time will be reduced as medical technology continues to improve.

What about cases of rape and incest?

Pregnancy from rape is extremely rare. As reasons for legalizing abortion rape and incest are nothing more than emotional screens used by those profiting from abortion. But we must approach the victim of rape or incest with great compassion. The woman has been subjected to an ugly trauma, and she needs love, support and help. But she has been the victim of one violent act. Should we now ask her to be a party to a second violent act -that of abortion? Unquestionably, many would return the violence of killing an innocent baby for the violence of rape. But, before making this decision, remember that most of the trauma has already occurred. She has been raped. That trauma will live with her all her life. Furthermore, this girl did not report for help, but kept this to herself. For several weeks or months, she has thought of little else. Now, she has finally asked for help, has shared her upset, and should be in a supportive situation. more information

But what about the child with disease who will die a slow death or live his life as a burden to his family?

Do you believe the new "ethic" should be that we kill the suffering or burdensome? Some of these cases are tragic, some are also inspirational. We cannot assume the responsibility for killing an unborn child simply because the child has not yet been seen in public. The child's place of residence does not change what abortion does - kill a human being.

What about the population boom? We can hardly feed the people of the world now!

True, the population of the world is growing, but population is not much of a problem in the United States. With a birth every 8 seconds and a death every 11 seconds, the U.S. population is growing at less than one percent per year. (www.census.gov)

Population growth or decline compares replacement of the current number of reproductive age individuals with the number of babies being born. By this measure, the United States is now in a sharp population decline.

How can a girl give up her own baby for adoption and go through life never knowing what is happening to her child?

Which is better to remember, "I gave my baby life. And because I loved him, I gave him into the arms of a loving couple" - or to remember, "I selfishly ended my baby's life?"

[Hulkster]

This website also seems to be vehemently supportive of women undergoing trauma through rape.....Women in the US only go for abortion if they are forced to...usually they keep it....now you will not understand why abortion must be avoided and why must we keep a unwanted child....i always see this abortion as a murder of a child and it is fast becoming the viewpoint of many people....and please do not say women in US are diff and women in India are diff...all are women and all know the pain of rape,abortion and i hope they too understand that a child being murdered only adds to a trauma...yemma bhadrakali..un vamsathakkae neeyae arivurai kodu

[Fire111999]

This website also seems to be vehemently supportive of women undergoing trauma through rape.....Women in the US only go for abortion if they are forced to...usually they keep it....now you will not understand why abortion must be avoided and why must we keep a unwanted child....i always see this abortion as a murder of a child and it is fast becoming the viewpoint of many people....and please do not say women in US are diff and women in India are diff...all are women and all know the pain of rape,abortion and i hope they too understand that a child being murdered only adds to a trauma...yemma bhadrakali..un vamsathakkae neeyae arivurai kodu

as i said, tt website is against abortion. so they phrase things in a biased way. and also, in the us, they have this kind of support and more. tt is not available in india. i'm not saying the women are different in india and the US. i'm saying that the society is different and therefore a girl in india will not get this kind of support. in fact she'll be ostracised. so it's very difficult for her to make a decision to keep the child. and even in the US, they are only recommending that the girl give up the child for adoption, not bring it up herself!

and was the last sentence directed towards me? bhadrakali-ya? i'll take that as a compliment. you're seeing me in the form of the amman. and what do u mean my vamsathakkae? what does that mean?

[Hulkster]

Ada neenga onnu...it was meant for bhadrakali amman to save all of woman race....manushan enna punniyam penaalum kaduvul aaga mudiyuma?

[Fire111999]

Ada neenga onnu...it was meant for bhadrakali amman to save all of woman race....manushan enna punniyam penaalum kaduvul aaga mudiyuma?

ok ok. relax! but that was not relevant, IMO!

[Hulkster]

Of course i know the society is the reason why indian women cant keep the child or let them out for adoption....but using that i cant support abortion...i very well know the society cannot be trusted which is why im looking from a individual womans point of view if she was not ostracised by the society...so in that manner i do not view abortion as a viable option( but it must be included for life threatening cases that affect the mother..i mean for cases like rape pregnancies..forced pregnancies etc)...it seems you view abortion from a womans view if she is still ostracised by the society which is why my views differ abit from yours.

But still your view is a valid reference and it also reflects upon the ongoing truths in our soceity so a :thumbsup: for that.

[Hulkster]

Neruppu summa oru vethanaiyin ninaippal appadi sollitaen...athaan..mattapadi tappa ninaichikathaenge...abortion played a important part in my mums life too...she had to abort a female child due to a dumb astrologer saying firstborn being female can destroy her life and so she had to wait till she got me....but i can see some sadness when she talks about the abortions.

[Fire111999]

Of course i know the society is the reason why indian women cant keep the child or let them out for adoption....but using that i cant support abortion...i very well know the society cannot be trusted which is why im looking from a individual womans point of view if she was not ostracised by the society...so in that manner i do not view abortion as a viable option( but it must be included for life threatening cases that affect the mother..i mean for cases like rape pregnancies..forced pregnancies etc)...it seems you view abortion from a womans view if she is still ostracised by the society which is why my views differ abit from yours.

But still your view is a valid reference and it also reflects upon the ongoing truths in our soceity so a :thumbsup: for that.

so, u're ok with abortion is rape cases? is that what u;re saying? :?

[Hulkster]

Yeah if the mother's life is under threat from the baby or any such reasons like that

[Fire111999]

Yeah if the mother's life is under threat from the baby or any such reasons like that

not only in rape cases right?

[bingleguy]

Hi Fire ..... howdy

Hulk enna solraanga neruppu ?

[Hulkster]

Nope...other cases too of course.

[Fire111999]

hi vasanth,

he just said tt he's ok with abortion in rape cases or forced pregancies if there is danger to the mother due to the baby. and i asked him that would be applicable not only in rape cases right.

ok, i don't remember if i already asked when u think abortion is ok. are u the one who asked abt when the sex is known?

[Fire111999]

Nope...other cases too of course.
yeah, ok. got slightly confused there.

[bingleguy]

hi vasanth,

he just said tt he's ok with abortion in rape cases or forced pregancies if there is danger to the mother due to the baby. and i asked him that would be applicable not only in rape cases right.

ok, i don't remember if i already asked when u think abortion is ok. are u the one who asked abt when the sex is known?

hmn ......... guess he says ... other medical reason though ! a guess

i vaguely remember ... guess i told "many do the abortion after coming to know about the gender of the baby"

[bingleguy]

hi vasanth,

he just said tt he's ok with abortion in rape cases or forced pregancies if there is danger to the mother due to the baby. and i asked him that would be applicable not only in rape cases right.

ok, i don't remember if i already asked when u think abortion is ok. are u the one who asked abt when the sex is known?

hmn ......... guess he says ... other medical reason though ! a guess

i vaguely remember ... guess i told "many do the abortion after coming to know about the gender of the baby"

[Fire111999]

hmn ......... guess he says ... other medical reason though ! a guess

i vaguely remember ... guess i told "many do the abortion after coming to know about the gender of the baby"

no, he clarified it. that's fine.

so u're saying that it's horrible that pple do abortion cos they don't want the baby of that sex is it? oh, i understand now. that's y u said they have to do it before that if they want to. ok, although the sex organs only develop after 2 months, i think doctors might be able to test the DNA and tell the gender. but i don't think they usually do that. so i guess it'll only be after 2 months. and do they tell the parents the gender of the baby in india?

[thamizhvaanan]

No they dont, but doctors do give a slight hint.
Infact in most hospitals it is put outside that sex determination is illegal. My sis gave birth to a girl recently, we had no idea till the birth.

If it is a boy, most doctor give away a hint like asking "enna panraan paiyyan?, udaikkiraana? " But the sad fact is that they are afraid to reveal the same fact if the child is a girl. One of my friends said, if the doctor doesnt give any hint after scanning, u can be sure that it is a girl :( .

[thamizhvaanan]

To my knowledge, abortion based on sex is not that prevailant in metros (chennai atleast), but they do seek boy child in other ways. If the first baby is a boy ppl have no complaint and say "naamiruvar namakku oruvar" , if it is a girl, they plan to have another child saying "aasaikku oru ponnu, aasthikku oru paiyan" .

[Fire111999]

To my knowledge, abortion based on sex is not that prevailant in metros (chennai atleast), but they do seek boy child in other ways. If the first baby is a boy ppl have no complaint and say "naamiruvar namakku oruvar" , if it is a girl, they plan to have another child saying "aasaikku oru ponnu, aasthikku oru paiyan" .

:lol: can't believe that's still true. my parents wanted girls only. cos my dad loves little girls. and my mum is like, i'm glad neither of u are boys! she's like i'd prob have loved the boy as well but i would so much rather have girls. so it was really happy for them that they got 2 girls and no boys!

btw what is aasthi? name is it?

anyways, i am praying like mad i get girls only! but of course i would love a boy as well. but it's just my prefernece.

[Hulkster]

Kannagi, Draupadi pondra mangaiyargalai konda intha naadu...oru ponnu peithuvethukku vekkama?..i dunt see whats the problem in giving birth to girls...men and women are equal and in fact girls grow independent and tend to realise feelings more faster than boys do. I guess its the physical weakness that causes such people to think like that..:(....Mother Mary vananungaraanga...Ammanai vananguraanga..anaal paen kulunthaigalai vanangu theriyalae intha manitha vamsathukku...kaduvulae ithu unnukae porukku villeiya?!

[Hulkster]

Aasthi should be rites of the parents when they pass away.

[Fire111999]

Aasthi should be rites of the parents when they pass away.

but if they don't have a boy then the girl can also do it right?

[Hulkster]

Of course they can do it...it is just the society who make a big fuss that only boys must do it.

[thamizhvaanan]

I thot aasthi is sothhu, property :(

[Fire111999]

I thot aasthi is sothhu, property :(
oh, in that case, it's equal sharing b/w all children right? i know last time the land used to go to the guys cos they stay at home and the girls take away their portion of the wealth as dowry when they leave the house. but now, both guys and girls leave their home when they get married and also most wealth is not in the form of land. even if it is, it's still equal distribution right?

[Querida]

(sigh) what a tense topic...I got a headache reading some immature replies :roll: as well as some controversial yet justifiable replies....my view for the longest time has been that abortion is an option...fine....but simply as one done in case of endangering the mother's health...it is the moment it has become a choice of liberty that such carelessness is accounted for. I am still divided in many aspects of this issue...I am still uncertain whether girls who are raped should keep their child....the child has done no wrong but how about the parent will they or their family accept it and treat it well? It is ideal to think that a mother will of course love her own child...but sadly not everyone is so open-hearted...I have seen many campaigns against abortion...all of them very graphic...all them heart-breaking and enough to make you change your mind in hurting a child which people associate as a thing. :( I do not want to post any of these sites and hurt any hubbers who are sensitive to this issue.

same with adoption it is the best way for a child to get a second chance when it never deserved to have its first chance taken away...but some people always see their natural child (even if they cannot conceive) as better than an adopted child...i highly admire and commend those who are able to adopt and love their child no different from their own biological children...I know many foster parents who cannot conceive yet love each and everyone of their adoptive children even those who have unfortunatly come from broken homes...

In closing i would like to say that though many things are inherited by parents such as height, there is a threshold for this...a child of tall parents who is malnourished will likely not reach its potential height just as a child who may have stubborn characteristic (just using simple example in this case...rather it is more complicated) this either can be encouraged by parents greatly (by accepting it and worse allowing the child to show stubborness even when it is wrong) or discourage it by curbing behaviour to when it is appropriate.

[Fire111999]

yes, Q, i agree that it is difficult when u think abt abortion in rape cases as punishment for a child for no mistake of its own. but if the girl is forced to have the child, isn't that punishment to her for no mistake of hers? i feel that the girl should have the option to abort. and if she chooses not to, then she must be greatly respected.

i also agree tt if u were to watch videos on abortion, esp the one they show ladies who are considering abortion, it is amazing how sane pple can choose to do abortion. only pple in desperate situations will choose to do abortion.

and for adoption in rape cases, well, for a girl to bear the child to birth is itself a great thing. to expect that she should bring up the child is much more. but it is also true tt after carrying the child for 10 months and giving birth to it, the girl might not want to let go of the child.

and yes, the environment in which a child grows up has a lot of effect on the way a child grows up. but genes are the foundation that you are building on. a child prone to be vertically challenged gentically can't overcome that totally, even given the best of nutritional diets.

[Fire111999]

another thing, do u consider rape treatment as abortion as well?

[thamizhvaanan]

and for adoption in rape cases, well, for a girl to bear the child to birth is itself a great thing. to expect that she should bring up the child is much more. but it is also true tt after carrying the child for 10 months and giving birth to it, the girl might not want to let go of the child.



you can never fully understand the psychology of a pregnant woman. no matter under wat severe conditions she is made to bear a child, she does develop a bondage with the child. It is a feeling which one can never feel nor predict, unless you are the mother. saying so, it should mean that there shud be zero abortion cases, which is not the case. I really dont understand these ppl

[Fire111999]

and for adoption in rape cases, well, for a girl to bear the child to birth is itself a great thing. to expect that she should bring up the child is much more. but it is also true tt after carrying the child for 10 months and giving birth to it, the girl might not want to let go of the child.



you can never fully understand the psychology of a pregnant woman. no matter under wat severe conditions she is made to bear a child, she does develop a bondage with the child. It is a feeling which one can never feel nor predict, unless you are the mother. saying so, it should mean that there shud be zero abortion cases, which is not the case. I really dont understand these ppl

yes, that's very true. and this bondage is present even when the woman is pregnant, not only after giving birth to the baby. that's what makes abortion such a traumatic experience. but a person doesn't avoid doing sth just cos the person knows that it will be a painful experience. and for rape cases, the present pain might seem greater than the unknown pain due to abortion.

but i can't understand why pple abort in normal cases (other than for rape cases and for medical reasons)

[Fire111999]

another thing, do u consider rape treatment as abortion as well?

what i mean is that, in rape cases, the girl will be given an injection or a pill (can't remember which) that will prevent pregnancy in two ways.

if she is near her ovulation time, it will postpone her ovulation and hence the sperm can't fuse with a ovule and cause pregnancy.

if she has ovulated at that time and the sperm has fused with the ovule forming a zygote (i.e. she is pregnant), the injection or pill will cause her ovary walls to harden such that when it's time for implantation into the ovary wall (on about day 6 ), implantation cannot happen as the ovary walls are not in a conducive condition. therefore the baby which is in the blastocyst stage, dies.

so is this also abortion?