Islamic Invasions ! Hindus Persecutions !

[Eelavar]

[tscii:b51b117e6c]The french journalist, Francois Gautier wrote in his book "Rewriting Indian History" :
The massacres perpetuated by Muslims in India are unparalleled in history, bigger than the Holocaust of the Jews by the Nazis; or the massacre of the Armenians by the Turks; more extensive even than the slaughter of the South American native populations by the invading Spanish and Portuguese.

As beeing a Shaiva Hindu, i think it's my duty to keep memorials about this genocide.

For more than two millennia, India has suffered one bloody invasion after another, leaving a Holocaust of millions of lives and a civilization and culture left in near ruins. Through it all, India is the only one of the great ancient civilizations that has survived today. Hinduism is the most ancient and only continuously surviving religion and culture that has successfully maintained itself while so many other cultures and civilizations have vanished. No other ancient civilization has retained its ancient religion and culture under the onslaught of the western Abrahamic monotheist religions.

The first of the major invasions came from Alexander of Macedonia. His invasion of India was intended to bring Greek culture to India and to encourage cultural exchange between the Indic and Hellenic worlds. This invasion was mild compared to the savage invasions of Islam, which continue even today, attempting to decimate the Indian religions of Dharma and the Culture of Bhaaratvarsha (India).

Just as India was about to successfully throw off the yoke of Islamic barbarism after nearly 1000 years of slaughter, the British and Portuguese came with their missionaries. They tried to finish what Islam had begun, beginning centuries more of colonial strangulation of the great Vedic Culture of India, until finally India won her Independence in 1947. By then, so much damage had been done that India was forced to accept partition along religious lines and give up much of her northern territories to what are today the Islamic States of Pakistan and Bangladesh.

What is left of modern India is still rife with a growing population of Muslims and the continuing threat of Christian missionaries, openly seeking to wipe out Hinduism, which is not only the majority religion of India, but more than that, the Indian way of life and her very culture.
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MOST OF INDIANS NEGATED THIS HOLOCAUST !!

For more informations about this genocide.

http://www.atributetohinduism.com/Islamic_Onslaught.htm
http://sarvadharma.org/Museum/HinduHolocaustMuseum.htm
http://www.geocities.com/hindoo_humanist/
http://www.mantra.com/holocaust/
http://www.francoisgautier.com/Written%20Material/Rewriting%20Indian%20History.doc (In this book, the author estimates that more than 80 mios Hindus were killed)
http://koenraadelst.voiceofdharma.com
http://koenraadelst.voiceofdharma.com/books/negaind/index.htm

[srivatsan]

Nobody will accept or speak about this, even when this is this 200% true....

If you are going to speak about this, you will be termed as a communal force or a hindu fanatic.....even our moderate firends will ask "OK.. it has happened, what are you going to do now"?

This country, Bharatham.... has a very very wrong perception about secularism.....No leader (90% of citizens) have the NUTS, to aceept this....what Muslims did (and in some places doing) with this country is absolutely 100% wrong......and attrocious......and unforgivable crime......and our leader are colluders....including M.K. Gandhi.

I will continue with my arguments.....if at all this thread has the mercy of Moderoators and admins....to continue to live.

[Eelavar]

This topic is very important to the Indian history thread.

We cannot talk about our history witout talking about this genocide. It's why i opened a discussion about this subject.

Moderators, the holocaust MUST NOT BE NEGATED AS MARXISTS DID !!

[Eelavar]

srivatsan,
OK.. it has happened, what are you going to do now"?

The negationism regarding the Nazi crimes has been the object of much public discussion. Turkish negationism about the Armenian genocide has received some attention. Less well-known is that India has its own brand of negationism.

Since about 1920 an effort has been going on in India to rewrite history and to deny the millennium-long attack of Islam on Hinduism. Today, most politicians and English- writing intellectuals in India will go out of their way to condemn any public reference to this long and painful conflict in the strongest terms. They will go to any length to create the illusion of a history of communal amity between Hindus and Muslims.

http://koenraadelst.voiceofdharma.com/books/negaind/ch2.htm

[rocketboy]

i always felt that sikh guys are different from the rest of the indians. For example the sikh boys mature very early when compared to the rest of us. They start growing beards when they reach sixth class and by the time they are in tenth class they have a full grown beard.( well i started growing one only when i embarked upon my college life). This i think is somewhat related to matter being discussed. Punjab due to its proximity to Afghanisthan , pakisthan was under the constant attack of the invading pasthuns or pathans . These invaders involved in some brutal crimes like raping the women and killing the children. so the people living in those areas grouped together and invoked the blessing of the almighty. God blessed their lads with early maturity so that they can stand up to the ruffians and protect their kin This whole theory is my brain child.It may sound very stupid ( cos its unscientific as it involves the divine factor),but can anyone come up with better , more acceptable theory. I have never come across a wimpy sikh lad till now. And its also true that the Indian army is greatly indebted to them.

[rocketboy]

Well well but what about the recent gujarat carnage. can anyone tell me, precisely which Hindu scripture preaches the " eye for an eye " policy?Within hours of the godhra outrage , a meticulously planned massacre against the Muslims was unleashed. Women were stripped and raped. People were beheaded , dimembered and urinated upon.
I vehemently condemn the gujarat riots and these organisations (VHP, Bajrang Dal , RSS) need to be dealt with the same yardstick as other terrorist organisations like hizb-ul-mujahideen , harkut-ul-ansar, lakshar-e -toiba .

p.s : Its possible for some to construct that I am a christian by just looking at my signature and unnecessarily make some unsought remarks. For the sake of clarity I am a saivaite Hindu . I am not a pseudo secularist either. My heart burns wherever i see injustice.

[anbu_kathir]

Well... this thread prompts me to ask this question.... Who is a Hindu? ( or Muslim or Christian for that matter ).

I believe a Hindu is one who "follows" Hindu Dharma. Though there are certain common truths that apply to everybody (like speaking the truth...which most don't), the most essential and most important Dharma is Swadharma ( the Duty to the Self). And I hate to tell this... I believe there are extremely few Hindus living in the planet today...and the list excludes me too. ( wonder how many of real Hindus were those in that 80 million Hindus , Eelavar.)

Of course these "really" true Hindus might include True Muslims or True Christians ... they have the same definitions ( though their external ideologies(which depend on the place-time of the religion's origin) seem different, the basic undiluted stuff must be still the same )

This is so, for, I am sure you know, Hinduism never had a name as a religion ...it was simply called Sanatana Dharma ( Eternal Dharma ). It might indeed not be surprising to say that to be a Hindu/Muslim/Christian mean nothing once the person dies, for the same Personality may have been a non-human or one of different religion , and might become members of any other religion that might have seemed good/bad.. maybe even a non-human again, in the next birth. And of course, the Karmic law of balance always holds good... one never experiences other than what one has called forth.

I do not mean to say all these massacres need to be forgotten... they have to be remembered to strengthen ourselves, not to make others submit. They need to be forgiven. There are no ways to heal a wound by making another. Only forgiveness and Love can do that. We must remember that we have a long way to go as a species, and larger issues to deal with.


Much Love and Light.

[Eelavar]

[tscii:7068f48385]Anbu_kathir


WHO ARE THE HINDUS?

Let’s say it right away: there are no Hindus… This word was invented by European colonizers to designate a people which lived in the valley of the Indus. The exact appellation should be “Indu”, a term which was actually used for centuries by outsiders, to name all India’s inhabitants, be they Muslims, Christians, Buddhists or Hindus. But when Indus became Hindus at the hands of western colonizers, it grew to be a source of confusion and had catastrophic consequences for Indian history: it brought indirectly the terrible partition of the subcontinent and is partly responsible today for the inter-religious strife in India.

Who are the Hindus then – or shall we say Indus? Western (and unfortunately also Indian) historians have often reduced Hinduism to a code of moral conduct and a set of rites and rituals, or have even negated Hinduism by associating it only with the hated system of castes, forgetting that Hinduism was not only a wonderful system of thought, which influenced many of the philosophical systems of our planet, but that it was – and hopefully still is today, even if it has lost some of its early purity – a unique spirituality, which went beyond all religions in the true spirit of “Induity”. It may be necessary then – even for Indians, who often seem to have very little idea of the greatness of their culture – to remind the readers of a few of the lasting principles of Hinduism.

In the beginning for the Hindus, the world was only the Being without duality: Sat. Certain sects of Hinduism even said that before man, before any living organism, there was only Non-Being: a-sat. But how could the Being emerge from Non-Being? In the beginning then, this world must have been Pure Being, unique, without past, present or future:
“It was the hour before the Gods awake.
Across the path of the divine Event
The huge foreboding mind of Night, alone
In her unlit temple of eternity,
Lay stretched immobile upon Silence’s marge…” (Sri Aurobindo, Savitri, page 1)

And then, « something » happened:
“ Then Something in the inscrutable darkness stirred;
A nameless movement, an unthought Idea,
Insistent, dissatisfied, without an aim,
Something that wished but knew not how to be,
Teased the Inconscient to wake Ignorance”… (Idem, page 2)
Human evolution had started; the Non-Manifest had descended into Matter. And all the forms of life as we know them, were going to blossom during the millions of years which followed, until the homo sapiens of today.

And for the Hindus, the symbol, the unalterable proof of this descent of the Non-Manifest on our earth is jiva, the soul, a spark of the Infinite which is hidden in every thing. It is through jiva that the flower finds its infinite exquisiteness; it is because of jiva that the animal moves with such beauty, it is by the grace of jiva that man always aspires higher. “As tiny as an atom, as vast as the universe, jiva is unfathomable and cannot be seized; eternal, jiva cannot be destroyed; without attachments, free, nothing can touch it”, says the Taittirîya Upanishad.
Hinduism has always maintained that jiva reincarnates itself from life to life, thus perfecting itself throughout the ages. Everything is valuable for jiva and there is nothing that it neglects, as each experience enriches the soul: sufferings and joys, honors and disgrace, king in this life, untouchable in the next, criminal yesterday, saint today…. When we die, the physical body goes back to the universal Earth, the intellect dissolves itself in the larger universal Mind, and the vital, or Life Force, which is the mass of the impulsions and desires which we have formed in the course of a lifetime, return to the universal Vital. And then jiva is reborn, again and again, until we become fully conscious of the Supreme Being from which we all emanate: “Old and feeble, he becomes young again and again”, says the Rig Veda.

This concept of reincarnation, without which it is difficult to understand the why of our often painful lives, or accept the inevitability (and immense cruelty) of death, has been lost in the West and most other parts of the world and religions, whereas it was prevalent nearly everywhere during Antiquity. “Which sadist God has decreed that we would have only one life to realize ourselves and through which colossal ignorance Islam and Christianity have decided that we shall go to Heaven, or to Hell, according to the deeds, bad or good, which we have committed in a single life?” asks French writer Satprem.

The ancient Hindus were intensely secular in spirit, as their spirituality was absolutely non- sectarian – and still is today in a lesser measure. Seven thousand years ago, Vedic sages, to define the Universal Law which they had experienced within themselves on an occult and supra-spiritual plane, had invented the word dharma. In a nutshell, dharma is all that which helps you to become more and more aware of jiva inside yourself. In fact, dharma defines good and bad: what helps you on the path of spiritual discovery can be considered good = dharmic; and what impedes, you can be taken it as bad = a-dharmic. And to help the seeker progress in his sadhana, the sages of ore had codified a series of systems called yogas. There is hatha-yoga, or the yoga of the body, the only Indian spiritual discipline which the West knows about and which has been copied by all the gymnastics and aerobics systems of the world; karma-yoga, or yoga of work; jnana-yoga, that of knowledge; bhakti yoga, the path of devotion… and so on. The Masters had also discovered that the personality of each human being is composed of three main “psychological” elements, or gunas: tamas, which is the principle of inertia, of heaviness and indolence; rajas, the more dynamic energy of our desires and impulsions; and sattwa, the most spiritualized and refined element in us. All yogas have thus attempted to promote sattwa, while taming rajas and uplifting tamas.

Karma is another very important tenet of Hinduism which has been perverted in modern times, not only because of its fashionable misuse in the West, but also in India itself where, because of influences during three centuries by missionaries and secular thought, it is often mixed-up in varying degrees with the Christian concept of sin and virtue. Hindus (and Buddhists) have always maintained that all actions, good or bad, which we perform during a lifetime, carry automatically consequences for the next lives to come. But there is absolutely no moral implication, no notion of Good or Evil, as for Hinduism there is a mathematical and immutable logic in our actions: “Whatever the seed you planted, you will harvest its fruit sooner or later”, says the Buddha. Consequently, there is never any absolute injustice: suffering in this life could be the consequence of a “bad” karma sown in another life; and today’s happiness, might result from a “good” karma performed in another body. With this knowledge, one can understand a little better the sufferings of humanity, even though many of them still look so unjust; but true compassion is always accompanied by right knowledge.

The concept of the avatar is also indispensable to the understanding of true dharma. Hindus have always believed that the Infinite, the Immanent, the Supreme, or whatever name you want to give to That which is beyond us, has manifested Himself throughout the ages in human bodies - particularly at crucial stages during the history of humanity. Christ, Krishna, Buddha, Confucius, Mohamed, are all avatars in the eyes of Hindus. Each of these “sons of God” explained and developed their messages in the terms and with the images of their times, which fitted into the understanding and culture of the country where they had incarnated themselves. None of them, except maybe Mohamed, ever said that he was “the only” son of God and that his religion was the only true one; it is their disciples and followers who later perverted their messages and converted what was essentially spiritual teachings into fixed religions with their intolerant and exclusive credos. It is these followers who today refuse to adapt their religions to modern times.

Finally, it is difficult to understand Hinduism if you do not grasp the concept of shakti, the divine feminine energy. Because of the influence of British thought, it is nowadays fashionable in India to always to highlight the downtrodden condition of Indian women and its underprivileged place in Indian society. As a result, Western correspondents are always keen to do stories on female infanticides in Bihar, child marriages, or sati cases in Rajasthan. But who knows that no country in the world has granted such an important place to women in its spirituality and social ethos ? “Without Him I exist not, without Her I am unmanifest”, says a great Indian yogi. Thus in India – and it is true that it is often a paradox, as women, because of later Muslim influences, have often been relegated to the background – the feminine concept is a symbol of dynamic realization. She is the eternal Mother, who is all Wisdom, all Compassion, all Force, Beauty and Perfection. It is in this way that since the dawn of times, Hindus have venerated the feminine element under its different manifestations: Makalaxmi, Mahakali, Mahasaraswati, Maheshwari – and even India is feminine: “Mother India”. She is the consciousness transcending all things, she is the emptiness beyond all emptiness, the smile beyond all smiles, the divine beauty beyond all earthly beauties. India has had many great female figures, whether warriors such as the Rani of Jhansi, or saints like Anandamai. And even today, behind all appearances – arranged marriages, submission to men, preference of male children in some rural areas (but girls are loved in India like nowhere in the world) - the role of women in India is essential and it can be safely said that very often, from the poorest to the richest classes, they control –even if behind the scenes – a lot of the family affairs: the education of their children (men in India are often “mama’s boys”), monetary concerns, and men often refer to them for important decisions. Countries such as France or the United States, who are often preaching India on “women’s rights” never had a woman as their top leader, whereas India had Indira Gandhi ruling with an iron hand for nearly twenty years; and proportionately they have less MP’s than India, which is considering earmarking 33% of seats in Parliament for women, a revolution in human history! And finally this shakti concept is so rooted in the subcontinent, that you have had women Prime Ministers, such as Benazir Bhutto or Kaleda Zia, in Islamic countries (Pakistan and Bangladesh) which are predominantly male-controlled in a much stricter way than India.
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[srivatsan]

"Who is Hindu?" this is not the question then .......,when the genocide was committed...The one who was not a muslim was killed....simply....that was the only criterion. . by our leaders and historians.......Secularism is only for Hindus....and not for anyone...is it? is it what secularism?

A muslim has All India Muslim Personal Law board....and a funny Shariat court has the nerve to say "Supreme court of India is not our higher authority".....did any of our politican had the nut to question it?.....In this country there is no leader to call a Spade, a spade......if some one calls, then He will be called a communal force. :evil:

[Eelavar]

srivatsan,

you are right mate.

The one who was not Muslim was simplely forced to convert to Islam or was slaughtered with his family...

[srivatsan]

"Hindu Kush Montain" how many of us knows that the meaning of this is "Blood of Hindu". That mountain, which is today in afganisthan was washed with the bloods of Hindu that it has been names as Hindu Khush (khush mean blood in turkish and an accnet of Farsi)and this has been purposfully, delebarately shadowed in the name of secualrism

[rocketboy]

Thanks to Shivaji southern india was left untouched

[srivatsan]

Any one has any idea about present plight of the great hero "Prithivi Raj Chowhan", who gave "Uyir Pichai" to Ghazni?

He was hurted mercilessly in a war by a adharmic way and was "dragged" to afganisthan, by the horse of Ghazni and...........Today, he is burried (which is not allowed in Sanaathana Dharma) in Afganisthan. It is near his samaadhi, the Mohammad Ghazni's memorial mosque is built.

Even today, every one who goes to that mosque, will come to the samaadhi of Chowhan, kick it with hatred and then visit the mosque...this is still a tradition there....to show thir hatred....

But Indian govt has not taken any action to reclaim his corpse from Afganisthan and do the last rites that Brave man deserves......why? Muslims in Bharatham will not like it? is that so?...and again no Indian media has the b****s to mention this except "Deccan Cronicle"

[mahadevan]

Thanks to Shivaji southern india was left untouched........

That is not true, not to denigrade The great Maratha leader, he was instrumental in preventing one form of chuvanism in what we call as Maharastra now. The imapct of islam is pretty minimal in south basically because of the very strong cultural identity in the south, be it the Tamil/telugu/kannada/malayalam land. Also thanks to many reasons like, relatively stable kingdoms in the south, the language disconnect between the north and south, vindhyas terrain, tiredness of the invaders etc.

Since we are talking of the invaders and the genocide in India, I am surprised by the non inclusion of the references about the genocide in Rig veda that were commited on the Indians by the invading vedics.

[srivatsan]

the language disconnect between the north and south, vindhyas terrain, tiredness of the invaders etc.
Languages spoken at that time in north and south , were not are not much different from each other...only after the islamic invasion, the Urdu/Farsi or Arabic became dominant in the the language they spoke...


Since we are talking of the invaders and the genocide in India, I am surprised by the non inclusion of the references about the genocide in Rig veda that were commited on the Indians by the invading vedics.

what are you trying to say...still sticking to Aryan Invasion theory.........?then I have no say to people like you.... :banghead:

[anbu_kathir]

Points all taken,Eelavar... a few observations


The word " Hindu" is derived from Sindhu - original name of Indus, and was created by Muslims, not by Europeans.

Do you think humans are at the farthest point of evolution now in the Universe ? How is a person/being considered to be "evolving" anyway? What is the scale for evolution ?

By Jiva, do you mean Jivatma? Even if not, you say Jiva is a spark of the Infinite...ie God, for namesake. God in general, is believed to be perfect. So why does the Jiva need to perfect itself from incarnation to incarnation?

And not all Hindus believe in the equality of all Gods of different religions, why even in Hinduism itself. That is why you have Shaivism, Vaishnavism, The Sakthas, Dvaita, Advaita, Visishtadvaita... so many different sects than any other named religion on this planet. But yes...these do not totally discount other means, some of them considering it equal, and some , to be lower aspects of their God and their means.

Eelavar said
" " but true compassion is always accompanied by right knowledge " "

Yes. :) :) I believe True compassion, unlimited, unlimiting, and free... Is the Knowledge.

[srivatsan]

Points all taken,Eelavar... a few observations


The word " Hindu" is derived from Sindhu - original name of Indus, and was created by Muslims, not by Europeans.

No.... it is not Muslims who call it Indus...Indus is how the Greeks call the river Sindhu...For Persians and Arabs...it is Sindh....and some how they (Persians and Arabs) still mention us as Hindh.

In general....nobody calls us by our original name...... "Bharatham", sometimes even ourselves...

[anbu_kathir]

I said the same thing buddy, I said the word "Sindhu" and not " Indus", was what lead to the word, "Hindu". "Hindu" was coined first by the Muslims. I never meant Muslims called the river, as " Indus ". I know it is Sind.



No.... it is not Muslims who call it Indus...Indus is how the Greeks call the river Sindhu...For Persians and Arabs...it is Sindh....and some how they (Persians and Arabs) still mention us as Hindh.

In general....nobody calls us by our original name...... "Bharatham", sometimes even ourselves...

[anbu_kathir]

I said the same thing buddy, I said the word "Sindhu" and not " Indus", was what lead to the word, "Hindu". "Hindu" was coined first by the Muslims. I never meant Muslims called the river, as " Indus ". I know it is Sind.



No.... it is not Muslims who call it Indus...Indus is how the Greeks call the river Sindhu...For Persians and Arabs...it is Sindh....and some how they (Persians and Arabs) still mention us as Hindh.

In general....nobody calls us by our original name...... "Bharatham", sometimes even ourselves...

[mahadevan]

In general....nobody calls us by our original name...... "Bharatham", sometimes even ourselves...

Who called the land mass as Bharatham, some piece of litreature thats it. I do not think that term Bharatham was ever used in that sense by the kings or the common man. Tamil litreature does not include that term and neither the rock edicts of ashoka or other kings uses that term. Just because some author proposed that term in his story does not mean it was really used in that sense.

[srivatsan]

Who called the land mass as Bharatham, some piece of litreature thats it. I do not think that term Bharatham was ever used in that sense by the kings or the common man. Tamil litreature does not include that term and neither the rock edicts of ashoka or other kings uses that term. Just because some author proposed that term in his story does not mean it was really used in that sense.

Becuz, even Ashoka was not able to bring the entire Bharathavasha under one kingdom.....It is Rajendra Chozha, was able to do that....but he didn't do any Rajasooya yagam or someting to proclaim himself as a "Chakravarthi"...

Well...as far as Bharatham is concerened, the entire land mass between the east and west ocean and from Himalayam to Kanya kumari....it was called Bhartha Varsham....if you want to call it by some thamizh name, I dont mind....as the culture remained the same....

[Surya]

I'm quite Pleasantly Surpriced that this thread has been started and has sucessfully moved on to it's 2nd page! :)


Thanks to Shivaji southern india was left untouched.

Actually, When speaking about Hindu Genocide, it is impossible to not mention Chatrapathi Shivaji Maharaj, and when Speaking about the Chatrapathi, it is impossible to not mention the Hindu Genocide that has taken place in India starting with Muhamad of Ghazni.

I started a thread on Sivaji a while back, but haven't had the time to continue. Hopefully after I get through my Finals in May, I'll be back to that thread.

So far I had written about the Massacre @ Somnath Temple by Gazini and his forces.

(The Legacy Of Chatrapathy Sivaji Maharaj)

http://www.forumhub.mayyam.com/hub/viewtopic.php?t=4893&start=0

[Surya]

"Hindu Kush Montain" how many of us knows that the meaning of this is "Blood of Hindu". That mountain, which is today in afganisthan was washed with the bloods of Hindu that it has been names as Hindu Khush (khush mean blood in turkish and an accnet of Farsi)and this has been purposfully, delebarately shadowed in the name of secualrism

:thumbsup: Strange thing, I was just reading about this yesterday.

http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/modern/hindu_kush.html

http://www.hvk.org/articles/0401/64.html

[rocketboy]

Thanks to Shivaji southern india was left untouched........

That is not true, not to denigrade The great Maratha leader, he was instrumental in preventing one form of chuvanism in what we call as Maharastra now. The imapct of islam is pretty minimal in south basically because of the very strong cultural identity in the south, be it the Tamil/telugu/kannada/malayalam land. Also thanks to many reasons like, relatively stable kingdoms in the south, the language disconnect between the north and south, vindhyas terrain, tiredness of the invaders etc.

Since we are talking of the invaders and the genocide in India, I am surprised by the non inclusion of the references about the genocide in Rig veda that were commited on the Indians by the invading vedics.

I am not going to refute your claims. shivaji's reign coincided with that of aurangazeb. and its well known fact aurangazeb was the most orthodox , intolerant ruler in the mughal dynasty.(He jailed his father and killed one of his brothers to ascend the throne) shivaji thwarted every attempt made by aurangazeb to conquer southern India. aurangazeb followed the policy of forced conversion and torture with more rigour than any of his predecessors. The martyrdom of guru Tegh bahadur singh is also attributed to him.I don't agree with you that the Vindhyas are more formidable than the giant himalayas. None of the muslim rulers were virtuous. Be it ghori or ghazni or tughlaq or mughals. They were hell bent on propagating their own religion. Thats why we south indians owe a lot to shivaji.

[bis_mala]

Looks like the Hindus of the North were not at all good soldiers. Everytime an invading force came, they fell!! We are not talking of individual bravery like of that Shivaji but of the armies.

There was some inherent weakness in them. Can any one of our brothers here idenify the weakness?

It seems Alexander the Great also knew of this weakness of the North Indians!!

[srivatsan]

Looks like the Hindus of the North were not at all good soldiers. Everytime an invading force came, they fell!! We are not talking of individual bravery like of that Shivaji but of the armies.

There was some inherent weakness in them. Can any one of our brothers here idenify the weakness?

It seems Alexander the Great also knew of this weakness of the North Indians!!
Correctly said bismala....it was not only in the north, it was all over the Bharatham, that weakness existed...the weakness is jealousy and enmity and that weakness continues to exist even now....

[Lambretta]

Correctly said bismala....it was not only in the north, it was all over the Bharatham, that weakness existed...the weakness is jealousy and enmity and that weakness continues to exist even now....
Also, might I add, complacency/over-confidence?

[rajraj]

There was some inherent weakness in them. Can any one of our brothers here idenify the weakness?


mala: First, you have to understand that there was no India as we know it today before independence. Even when the British ruled there were princely states that had their own laws except for paying taxes to the British. That was also true when the moguls ruled. The Moguls and the British were good at playing one princely state against the other in exchange for 'protection' and expansion of a favored princely state. When India became independent most of the princely states acceded to the union. Maharaja of Kashmir was wavering which lead to ' Kashmir problem'. Travancore Maharaja was said to have considered declaring independence. Nizam of Hyderabad flatly refused and took his case to UN security council. India had to march its army into the state of Hyderabad to defeat Nizam's army. It was under force the Nizam acceded. Now, you know the weakness. Simply put, there was no unity in diversity. In other words, Indian princes (maharajas,rajas and other feudal lords) did not learn from Mogul experience. For them 'enemy's enemy was a friend'.

That also means genocide was not by moguls alone. One Hindu princely state was killing citizens of another princely state with the support of moguls ! :(

[srivatsan]

That also means genocide was not by moguls alone. One Hindu princely state was killing citizens of another princely state with the support of moguls ! :(

I think I differ only in this stmt rajaraj. I accept to the rest....Though the king od one princely state is enemy of the other, the citizens were allowed to pass freely....The RajaDharma at that time was, whatever may be the Princely State, that if there is a war, it is between the kings and NOT with the citizens.....I think, every state adhered to this principle....It was only Mughals and Turkish, who started attacking poor citizens......

Finally, India was not one country in the recent past, but was culturally one.....Infact, our motto was not "Unity in Diversity, It was Diversity inpite of Unity". :)

[srivatsan]

Correctly said bismala....it was not only in the north, it was all over the Bharatham, that weakness existed...the weakness is jealousy and enmity and that weakness continues to exist even now....
Also, might I add, complacency/over-confidence?

ummmmmm.....but complacency or over confidence didn't find much place in our history. May be it is culture or Dharma which was our weakness. For example, if PrithiviRaj had Finished Ghori when he was defeated by Rajput Army and was left a prisoner, the history would have been very differernt. There Prithivi's Yuddha Dharma, was his weakness....

But, above all, jealosy and greediness was the main weakness....

[Surya]

Lack of Unity amoung Hindus is the main weakness, which still exists today.

In the case of Pritviraj Maharaj:

He defeated Gori, and let him go, since he his Yudha Dharma didn't let him fight an opponent who didn't have a weapon. Gori later on came back with a more powerful army and defeated Pritviraj, dug his eyes out, and on the way to Afghanistan, the blind Rajput manages to send an arrow into Gori's chest. :thumbsup:

But even in his case, Pritviraj could have defeated Gori the second time also, if he had his Father In Law's Support, which he didn't due to Personal Feuds. So again, Lack of Unity.

PS: Alexander The Great's Army fell to the Hindu King "Purushothaman" aka Poris.

[Raghu]

[tscii:98e18865b2]



WHO ARE THE HINDUS?

Let’s say it right away: there are no Hindus… This word was invented by European colonizers

Dear Eelavar,

I beg to differ, it was the Persian Invaders , invented the word Hindus, when they invaded Bharath those days, they found the Indus Civilisation along the Indus Valley, these invaders could not pronounce the word 'Indu', so they pronounced it as 'Hindu'.[/tscii:98e18865b2]

[Lambretta]

In the case of Pritviraj Maharaj:

He defeated Gori, and let him go, since he his Yudha Dharma didn't let him fight an opponent who didn't have a weapon. Gori later on came back with a more powerful army and defeated Pritviraj, dug his eyes out, and on the way to Afghanistan, the blind Rajput manages to send an arrow into Gori's chest. :thumbsup:
Wow! P'raj sounds like one amazing dude! :clap: 8-) :D
Suri machi, u sure hav gr8 'gyaan' abt Indian history for sumone who'd studied in India only upto the 3rd grade! :thumbsup:


PS: Alexander The Great's Army fell to the Hindu King "Purushothaman" aka Poris.
*digr* This is partly my late granpa's name too! :D

/digr

[srivatsan]

Gori later on came back with a more powerful army and defeated Pritviraj, dug his eyes out, and on the way to Afghanistan, the blind Rajput manages to send an arrow into Gori's chest. :thumbsup:

Small correction Surya....Ghori didnt come up with a more powerful army...but this time he attacked the army campments of Prthiviraj, in the early morning (around 4 AM)before the Sunrise....which was un-imaginable for the warriors of Bharatha Desham....infact, to an extant, our own Dharma was our weakness....we were sure that the opponent will be as good as us....it was a mistake....

[srivatsan]

the blind Rajput manages to send an arrow into Gori's chest. :thumbsup:


For this act of P'Raj, he is still getting kicks from Afgani's foot. Yes this is a ritual....after P'Raj was beheaded, he was burried at the entrance of "Ghori's Mausoluem" (or memorial mosque) and every one who visits that Mosque for a prayer, will have to go and kick the "Samaadhi" of Prithivi........Look at the plight of a Great King....

[Eelavar]

Dear Raghu


I beg to differ, it was the Persian Invaders , invented the word Hindus, when they invaded Bharath those days, they found the Indus Civilisation along the Indus Valley, these invaders could not pronounce the word 'Indu', so they pronounced it as 'Hindu'.

Do you really thing that Indus valley was invaded by Persians ?
What is the proof ?

Do you really think that anciant 'Harappans' called themselves Indus ?

Raghu , it seems that Indus civilisation disapeard because the Saraswati river disapeard. There was never a so-called Aryan invasion as propaganted by Europeans. Nobody found any proofs of this invasion.

[Eelavar]

dear bis_mala,


It seems Alexander the Great also knew of this weakness of the North Indians!!

Where do you get this information ?
Many source told that Alexander was defeated at the Indian border... So i think that North Indians defeated him...

[Surya]

Lamby Machiii...:D :D :D
Thanks! :D Uhm...4th grade Actually. :P Yup P'raj is one of the most well known Rajputs. :thumbsup:

Srivatsan,
Thanks for the correction. :)


For this act of P'Raj, he is still getting kicks from Afgani's foot. Yes this is a ritual....after P'Raj was beheaded, he was burried at the entrance of "Ghori's Mausoluem" (or memorial mosque) and every one who visits that Mosque for a prayer, will have to go and kick the "Samaadhi" of Prithivi........Look at the plight of a Great King....

Yup, I read an article written by AMR, he also stated that the afghanis also spit on his grave. He claims that he along with many other Indians have written countless letters to different departments of the Indian Govt to make efforts to bring the remaining parts of Pritviraj Maharaj to India, but it seems that the different departments just didn't care enough. :roll: :hammer:

[Surya]

Dear Raghu


I beg to differ, it was the Persian Invaders , invented the word Hindus, when they invaded Bharath those days, they found the Indus Civilisation along the Indus Valley, these invaders could not pronounce the word 'Indu', so they pronounced it as 'Hindu'.

Do you really thing that Indus valley was invaded by Persians ?
What is the proof ?

Do you really think that anciant 'Harappans' called themselves Indus ?

Raghu , it seems that Indus civilisation disapeard because the Saraswati river disapeard. There was never a so-called Aryan invasion as propaganted by Europeans. Nobody found any proofs of this invasion.

:clap: :clap:

Mr. Eelavar, :)
I agree with the AIT thing, but I think, if I'm not mistaken, that Raghu Ji was talking about the Persians starting with Mohammed of Ghazini and not the so-called Aryans. :)

[Eelavar]

Surya,

Thanks for the enlightment, you got the point. ;-)

But i have still a question , where the word 'Indu' that the Persians couldn't pronouce come from ?
It's why i asked the question do the Harrapans call themselves Indu ?

Something is not rational, i have a doubt but i don't know what !

[srivatsan]

Surya,

Thanks for the enlightment, you got the point. ;-)

But i have still a question , where the word 'Indu' that the Persians couldn't pronouce come from ?
It's why i asked the question do the Harrapans call themselves Indu ?

Something is not rational, i have a doubt but i don't know what !

Perhaps Sindhu, the river nearby was mis pronounced as Indu?....and Greeks might have called it Indus...as we can see that many "Proper Noun" in Greek, ends with letter "s"....

[Lambretta]

For this act of P'Raj, he is still getting kicks from Afgani's foot. Yes this is a ritual....after P'Raj was beheaded, he was burried at the entrance of "Ghori's Mausoluem" (or memorial mosque) and every one who visits that Mosque for a prayer, will have to go and kick the "Samaadhi" of Prithivi........Look at the plight of a Great King....
Yup, I read an article written by AMR, he also stated that the afghanis also spit on his grave. He claims that he along with many other Indians have written countless letters to different departments of the Indian Govt to make efforts to bring the remaining parts of Pritviraj Maharaj to India, but it seems that the different departments just didn't care enough. :roll: :hammer:
:shock: :evil: :oops:......machi, not jus the departments, our society in general doesnt care enuff! :evil:
I mean, how many over here r like us.....? :(
And who is AMR btw??

[Sandeep]

Akbar the Great!

Talking of Hindu Genocide and what is Akbar doing here?

Because I think he was the only Muslim ruler who didnt try to destroy Hindus. Ofcource he was an emperor and he has fought wars with Hindu rulers (as well as Muslim).

This year is his 400th death anniversary but the government rejected grants for organizing history and literary events in commemoration without giving reason. But its said the reason is Muslims dont like him (because he gave up islam and started his own religion) and Hindus dont care.

[Lambretta]

Akbar the Great!
Akbar the Great = A.M.R?? :? :roll:

U mean Akbar MahaRaj? I dont recall him being calld tat......jus Samrat Akbar....

[Sandeep]

Akbar the Great!
Akbar the Great = A.M.R?? :? :roll:

U mean Akbar MahaRaj? I dont recall him being calld tat......jus Samrat Akbar....


????

Whats A.M.R :? :? :?

[Eelavar]

[tscii:fc290bc500]SUPPRESSING INDIAN HISTORY

The anniversary of Ayodhya has come and passed. Once more, many of India’s intelligentsia felt that the destruction of the mosque has signalled the end of a certain tolerant India, for which secularism was the unifying factor and has planted a dangerous seed of Hindu “nationalism” in India’s psyche. Yet, one should remember that the Hindu ‘fundamentalists’ did not kill a single soul in Ayodhya, whereas the bombs planted a while later in revenge by Indian Muslims with the help of Pakistan, killed more than 350 innocent human beings. In fact, during its long history, Hinduism has been one of the most peaceful creeds in the world, accepting the reality of different beliefs, never trying to convert -even in a non-violent manner, like the Buddhists did in Asia - and submitting itself rather meekly, except for a Shivaji, a Guru Gobind or a Rani of Jhansi, to numerous invasions. The same thing cannot be said about Islam, whatever N. Ram says in Frontline. Many historians, amongst them Will Durant, Louis Frederick, or Alain Danielou, have remarked that the Muslim invaders were so certain that they were doing their holy duty by razing temples and killing Hindus, that they had recorded down carefully and proudly their deeds in their own archives.

Mahmud of Ghazni, for instance, who patronised art and literature, would recite a verse of the Koran every night after having razed temples and killed his quota of unbelievers. Firuz Shah Tughlak, personally confirms that the destruction of Pagan temples was done out of piety and writes: "on the day of a Hindu festival, I went there myself, ordered the executions of all the leaders and practionners of his abomination; I destroyed their idols temples and built mosques in their places". Aurangzeb did not just build an isolated mosque on a razed temple, as Romila Thapar would like us to believe, he ordered all temples destroyed, among them the Kashi Vishvanath, one of the most sacred places of Hinduism and had mosques built on a number of cleared temples sites. All other Hindu sacred places within his reach equally suffered destruction, with mosques built on them. A few examples: Krishna's birth temple in Mathura, the rebuilt Somnath temple on the coast of Gujurat, the Vishnu temple replaced with the Alamgir mosque now overlooking Benares and the Treta-ka-Thakur temple in Ayodhya. The number of temples destroyed by Aurangzeb is counted in 4, if not 5 figures. This is a small excerpt of his own official court chronicles: "Aurangzeb ordered all provincial governors to destroy all schools and temples of the Pagans and to make a complete end to all pagan teachings and practices". Or:: "Hasan Ali Khan came and said that 172 temples in the area had been destroyed... His majesty went to Chittor and 63 temples were destroyed. Abu Tarab, appointed to destroy the idol-temples of Amber, reported that 66 temples had been razed to the ground".. Aurangzeb did not stop at destroying temples, their users were also wiped-out; even his own brother, Dara Shikoh, was executed for taking an interest in Hindu religion and the Sikh Guru Tegh Bahadur was beheaded because he objected to Aurangzeb's forced conversions. As we can see Romila Thapar and Percival Spear's statement of a benevolent Aurangzeb is a flagrant attempt at negationism (the negation of historical crimes). Even the respectable Encyclopedia Brittannica in its entry on India, does not mention in its chapter on the Sultanate period any persecutions of Hindus by Muslims, except "that Firuz Shah Tughlaq made largely unsuccessful attempts at converting his Hindu subjects and sometime persecuted them".

Indian school books seem to have taken their cue from the Encyclopedia Brittannica , as there is hardly any mention of this dark aspect of India’s past. But why does India negate its history? We know that Nehru and Gandhi wanted to keep Pakistan within India and wished to avoid the splintering away of Muslim groups. But was it a good enough reason to suppress information about Muslim atrocities during ten centuries of bloody invasions and the massive destruction of Hindu temples ? On the contrary this has only created more terrorism. Denying and suppressing the history cannot keep the harmony. In its place, truth and reconciliation are necessary. Hiding the truth denies sympathy to the victim, civilization and culture. A nation unless, it is ready to face its own history - the Good and the Bad, the Courageous and the Cowardly - can never bloom into its full plenitude. Hidden aspects of its own history sooner or later will surface and bring with them the guilt, anger, regret, which are the necessary ingredients to wipe-off that particular black karma. In Germany, for instance, Germans have been reminded again and again about the atrocities committed by the Nazis during World War II, and that has brought a sense of guilt, which has acted as a deterrent to future atrocities

The Jews have constantly tried, since the Nazi genocide, to keep alive the remembrance of their six million martyrs. This has got nothing to do with vengeance. Do the Jews of today want to retaliate upon contemporary Germany? No. It is only a matter of making sure that history does not repeat its mistakes, as alas it is doing today in India : witness the persecution of Hindus in Kashmir, whose 250.000 Pandits have fled their 5000 year old homeland, or the oppression of Hindus in Bangladesh and Pakistan. To remember, is to be able to look at today with the wisdom of yesterday. No collective memory should be erased for appeasing a particular community. Hiding the facts and justifying past Muslim crimes has led to terrorism in the Indian sub-continent. Muslims were never held accountable. One of the first steps to curb violence is to make one aware of past mistakes. Guilt in the culprit and forgiveness in the victim can put an end to self-righteousness and the kind of terrorism we see today in Kashmir, in spite of India’s peace overtures.

An article by Francois Gautier.
[/tscii:fc290bc500]

[Eelavar]

[tscii:522568a88a]ISLAM AND INDIA

Muslim invasions are still today a very controversial subject, since Indian history books have chosen to keep quiet about this huge chunk of Indian history - nearly 10 centuries of horrors. At Independence, Nehru too, put it aside, perhaps because he thought that this was a topic which could divide India, as there was a strong Muslim minority which chose to stay and not emigrate to Pakistan. Yet, nothing has marked India’s psyche - or the Hindu silent majority, if you wish - as much as the Muslim invasions. And whatever happens in contemporary India, is a consequence of these invasions, whether it is the creation of Pakistan, whether it is Kashmir, whether it is Ayodhya, or Kargil. There is no point in passing a moral judgment on these invasions, as they are a thing of the past. Islam is one of the world’s youngest religions, whose dynamism is not in question; unfortunately it is a militant religion, as it believes that there is only one God and all the other Gods are false. And so as long as this concept is ingrained in the minds of Muslims, there will be a problem of tolerance, of tolerating other creeds. And this is what happened in India from the 7th century onwards : invaders, who believed in one God, came upon this country which had a million gods… And for them it was the symbol of all what they thought was wrong. So the genocide - and the word genocide has to be used - which was perpetrated was tremendous, because of the staunch resistance of the 4000 year old Hindu faith. Indeed, the Muslim policy vis à vis India seems to have been a conscious and systematic destruction of everything that was beautiful, holy, refined. Entire cities were burnt down and their populations massacred. Each successive campaign brought hundreds of thousands of victims and similar numbers were deported as slaves. Every new invader often made literally his hill of Hindu skulls. Thus the conquest of Afghanistan in the year 1000, was followed by the annihilation of the entire Hindu population there; indeed, the region is still called Hindu Kush, 'Hindu slaughter'. The Bahmani sultans in central India, made it a rule to kill 100.000 Hindus a year. In 1399, Teimur killed 100.000 Hindus in a single day, and many more on other occasions. Historian Konraad Elst, in his book "Negationism in India", quotes Professor K.S. Lal, who calculated that the Hindu population decreased by eighty million between the year 1000 and 1525, indeed, probably the biggest holocaust in the world’s history, far greater than the genocide of the Incas in South America by the Spanish and the Portuguese.

Regrettably, there was a conspiracy by the British, and later by India’s Marxist intelligentsia to negate this holocaust. Thus, Indian students since the early twenties, were taught that that there never was a Muslim genocide on the person of Hindus, but rather that the Moghols brought great refinement to Indian culture. In "Communalism and the writing of Indian history", for instance, Romila Thapar, Harbans Mukhia and Bipan Chandra, professors at the JNU in New Delhi, the Mecca of secularism and negationism in India, denied the Muslim genocide by replacing it instead with a conflict of classes :
”Muslims brought the notion of egalitarianism in India”, they argue. The redoubtable Romila Thapar in her "Penguin History of India", co-authored with Percival Spear, writes again : "Aurangzeb's supposed intolerance, is little more than a hostile legend based on isolated acts such as the erection of a mosque on a temple site in Benares".

What are the facts, according to Muslim records ? Aurangzeb (1658-1707) did not just build an isolated mosque on a destroyed temple, he ordered all temples destroyed and mosques to be built on their site. Among them the Kashi Vishvanath, one of the most sacred places Hindu worship, Krishna's birth temple in Mathura, the rebuilt Somnath temple on the coast of Gujurat, the Vishnu temple replaced with the Alamgir mosque now overlooking Benares and the Treta-ka-Thakur temple in Ayodhya. The number of temples destroyed by Aurangzeb is counted in 5, if not 6 figures, according to his own official court chronicles: "Aurangzeb ordered all provincial governors to destroy all schools and temples of the Pagans and to make a complete end to all pagan teachings and practices"... "Hasan Ali Khan came and said that 172 temples in the area had been destroyed”... “His majesty went to Chittor and 63 temples were destroyed”… “Abu Tarab, appointed to destroy the idol-temples of Amber, reported that 66 temples had been razed to the ground". Aurangzeb did not stop at destroying temples, their users were also wiped-out; even his own brother, Dara Shikoh, was executed for taking an interest in Hindu religion and the Sikh Guru Tegh Bahadur was beheaded because he objected to Aurangzeb's forced conversions.

This genocide is still a reality which should not be wished away. Because what the Muslims invasions have done to India is to instil terror in the Hindu collective psyche, which still lingers many centuries later and triggers unconscious reactions. The paranoia displayed today by Indians, their indiscipline, their lack of charity for their own brethrens, the abject disregard of their environment, are a direct consequence of these invasions. What India has to do today, is to look squarely at the facts pertaining to these invasions and come to term with them, without any spirit of vengeance, so as to regain a little bit of self-pride. It would also help the Muslim community of India to acknowledge these horrors, which paradoxically, were committed against them, as they are the Hindus who were then converted by force, their women raped, their children taken into slavery – even though today they have made theirs the religion which their ancestors once hated.

By Francois Gautier from his public book 'Rewriting Indian history'
[/tscii:522568a88a]

[Lambretta]

Akbar the Great!
Akbar the Great = A.M.R?? :? :roll:
U mean Akbar MahaRaj? I dont recall him being calld tat......jus Samrat Akbar....
????
Whats A.M.R :? :? :?
Perhaps we'll leave it to Surya to answer! :D

[dsath]

[tscii:1c4d770e60]SUPPRESSING INDIAN HISTORY

In fact, during its long history, Hinduism has been one of the most peaceful creeds in the world, accepting the reality of different beliefs, never trying to convert -even in a non-violent manner, like the Buddhists did in Asia [/tscii:1c4d770e60]
If people are willing to convert to Hinduism which caste will they be part of ? :D The religion itself restricts any conversion.

[tscii:1c4d770e60]The same thing cannot be said about Islam, whatever N. Ram says in Frontline.
[/tscii:1c4d770e60]
A master stroke to nullify all sensible voices.


[tscii:1c4d770e60]
The Jews have constantly tried, since the Nazi genocide, to keep alive the remembrance of their six million martyrs. This has got nothing to do with vengeance. Do the Jews of today want to retaliate upon contemporary Germany? No. It is only a matter of making sure that history does not repeat its mistakes, as alas it is doing today in India
[/tscii:1c4d770e60]
The Jews history is completely different from our histroy. Remembrance of past history leads to insecurity and thats the reason why they feel compelled to invade Palestine when there was no need to, which in turn increases anti semtism - this in turn increases the insecurity. Its a cycle. Inspite of being intelligent and talented, they are not able to lead a peacful life because of this insecurity. Do we want the same thing to happen to us. More over Israel is a country only for Jews, and they can write what they want in their History books about any other community. But the question is do we want to mention the past in our history books and make one community nervous and expect them to be filled with remorse for what we assume happened some 800yrs back.

I persume if many Britons have decided to settle down in India and form a sizeable part of the Indian community then our Independence movement's history would also have been scaled down.

Its not hiding the fact, its showing compassion and understanding to the other community, shows the Indian greatness.

[Eelavar]

dsath,


The Jews history is completely different from our histroy.

A genocide remain a genocide !

[dsath]

A genocide remain a genocide !
The response to it can vary with time and how we perceive it.

[mahadevan]

Eelavar wrote: since Indian history books have chosen to keep quiet about this huge chunk of Indian history - nearly 10 centuries of horrors.

Agreed there was a genocide of Indians by the invading muslims, there is a conspicuous attempt to hide this fact for the same reason that hides the lower caste subjugation in the so called glorious vedic era as clearly elucidated by the vedas and manu sastra. The lack of unity in hinduism is mostly because of the casteism, and the definition of hinduism as propogated by certain section of the people. When the subjects are told that your sacred scriptures are vedas but you cannot read them, what sort of unity/sense of belonging can one expect ?
Is hinduism as practiced across the country has anything to do with vedas ?
Do we have a lot of temples across the country for the vedic gods ?
why the common practices of hindus across the regional affiliations appear similar and non vedic ?
untill the hijack of hinduism by the vedics is prevented, and the real essence of hinduism projected, there will be o unity among hindus, the attack stared with the vedics, continued with the muslims, gods knows who it could be in the future economic wars.

[srivatsan]

And who is AMR btw??

AMR mean, A. M. Rajagopalan, who is the chief edtor of Kumudam Jyothidam. He is a great astrologer (really great) and he is person who writes often about these things in the same magazine..

www.kumudam.com

[srivatsan]

[tscii]unfortunately it is a militant religion, as it believes that there is only one God and all the other Gods are false.

Not only Islam has this view, even Chritianity has the same view....I think only Sanaathana Dharma has a different view in this....

"Yepyanya Devatha Bhaktha Yajanthe Shraddhayaan Vitaha: |
Tepi Maameva Kountheya Yajanthey Vidhi Poorvakam||

this is a sloka from 9th chapter of Bhagavath Geetha, which says, whoever follows his way of life and prays to his own God( means Praying God in the way he wants) with sincerity in heart and do his Karma, will attain me (the Suprreme Almighty) by law...

[srivatsan]

A genocide remain a genocide !
The response to it can vary with time and how we perceive it.

So madam, do you mean to say, Genocide can become a service to the society when viewed from a different platform? I wish to see an example of such a situation, explained by you....

[Surya]

For this act of P'Raj, he is still getting kicks from Afgani's foot. Yes this is a ritual....after P'Raj was beheaded, he was burried at the entrance of "Ghori's Mausoluem" (or memorial mosque) and every one who visits that Mosque for a prayer, will have to go and kick the "Samaadhi" of Prithivi........Look at the plight of a Great King....
Yup, I read an article written by AMR, he also stated that the afghanis also spit on his grave. He claims that he along with many other Indians have written countless letters to different departments of the Indian Govt to make efforts to bring the remaining parts of Pritviraj Maharaj to India, but it seems that the different departments just didn't care enough. :roll: :hammer:
:shock: :evil: :oops:......machi, not jus the departments, our society in general doesnt care enuff! :evil:
I mean, how many over here r like us.....? :(
And who is AMR btw??

Exactly! :oops: I've spoken to people about this, and there are people who argue that doing this would create a feeling of communalism amoung Indians...WTF?!?!?! :banghead: Sure, this creates a feeling of Communalism, but Politicians quoting "Hindu Enraal Thirudan" which was completly out of context is perfectly alright?! :roll: WHAT A SHAME! :|

[Surya]

[tscii]

* the Hindu ‘fundamentalists’ did not kill a single soul in Ayodhya

*later in revenge by Indian Muslims with the help of Pakistan, killed more than 350 innocent human beings

* Hinduism has been one of the most peaceful creeds in the world, accepting the reality of different beliefs

* The same thing cannot be said about Islam,

*has got nothing to do with vengeance. Do the Jews of today want to retaliate upon contemporary Germany? No. It is only a matter of making sure that history does not repeat its mistakes, as alas it is doing today in India : witness the persecution of Hindus in Kashmir, whose 250.000 Pandits have fled their 5000 year old homeland, or the oppression of Hindus in Bangladesh and Pakistan.

*No collective memory should be erased for appeasing a particular community. Hiding the facts and justifying past Muslim crimes has led to terrorism in the Indian sub-continent.

*Indian school books seem to have taken their cue from the Encyclopedia Brittannica , as there is hardly any mention of this dark aspect of India’s past. But why does India negate its history?

*Will Durant, Louis Frederick, or Alain Danielou, have remarked that the Muslim invaders were so certain that they were doing their holy duty by razing temples and killing Hindus

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Wonderful Post Elavar! :clap: Thanks for posting that article. :)

Lamby and Sandeep,

Yeah it's already been explained by Srivatsan. :)

I think that AMR is more of a Social and Cultural Advisor rather than just a Astrologist. :)

[Surya]

untill the hijack of hinduism by the vedics is prevented, and the real essence of hinduism projected, there will be o unity among hindus, the attack stared with the vedics, continued with the muslims, gods knows who it could be in the future economic wars.

Vedics? That's a term that is used over and over in this section of the hub, who are u reffering to when you say that? The hijack? What Hijack? Back in the day, when lower caste people were forbbiden to read the Vedas? If so, that so-called "Hijack" doesn't exist anymore. No one is ristricted from reading the Vedas anymore.

[srivatsan]

I've spoken to people about this, and there are people who argue that doing this would create a feeling of communalism amoung Indians...WTF?!?!?! :banghead: Sure, this creates a feeling of Communalism, but Politicians quoting "Hindu Enraal Thirudan" which was completly out of context is perfectly alright?! :roll: WHAT A SHAME! :|

If telling the truth is going to create a communal tension, then it is better be faced and be controlled with Iron fist....Truth is truth...If a sect of people, doesnt want to accept this, then they better accept. :twisted:

[Eelavar]

dear Surya,
Thank you very much. :wink:

To all

AIT, Vedas and Caste system are the three most misunderstood subjects in India !
I will post articles which resume my opinion.
Please note that all those quotations are writted by an European who reconize, and who have admiration for the Indian civilisation, anciant as modern.
Francois Gautier is a french born journalist who live for more than 30 years in India, and know it well.
He wrote many books relating to the Indian society, he is really well informed.

[Eelavar]

dsath and mahadevan,

The caste system and the vedas are not what you think.

[Eelavar]

[tscii:8e3545938d]THE THREE GREAT DISINFORMATIONS ON INDIA

A civilisation is like the human soul: it has a childhood, where it struggles to learn; an adolescence where it discovers - sometimes painfully - the hard facts of life; an adulthood, where it enjoys the fruits of maturity; and an old age, which slowly leads to death and oblivion.
In this manner, since the dawn of human history, civilisations have risen, reached the top where they gravitate for some time, achieving their enduring excellence -and then slowly begin their descent towards extinction. Usually, old age for these civilisations meant that they fell prey to barbarians, because they had lost the vitality and the inner obedience to their particular genius, which they had possessed at the time of their peak and which had protected them. This has been a natural process and barbarians have played an important role in the evolution of humanity, for they made sure, in the most ruthless manner, that civilisations did not stagnate; because like a human being, a civilisation must die many times before it realises the fullness of its soul and attains divine perfection.
There have been many such great civilisations which rose and fell throughout the ages: Mesopotamia, Egypt, India, Africa, China, Greece, or Rome. Human nature being what it is, most of these civilisations established their might by military conquest and thus imposed their order and their views upon others, a process which some have called civilisation, others colonisation.

The advent of Jesus Christ heralded the rise of the European-Western civilisation, whose forerunners were the Greek and Roman cultures. For long, Europe was only a disunited lot of barbarian tribes fighting each other. The Crusades signalled the earliest attempt at unity, although the French and the British, for instance, kept warring each other long after them. Some of these nations were great seafarers. Thus Spain and Portugal for instance, reached out to the far world and colonised huge chunks of territories in the Americas from the 14th century onwards. But it can be safely said that with the industrial revolution, European civilisation started reaching its maturity at the beginning of the 19th century and that a great civilisation, whose genius was consciousness in the material, developed henceforth. Simultaneously, of course, as all other civilisations had done before, Europe started expanding outwards and imposed its own civilisation on other cultures, which had lost their vitality and were open to conquest. England, particularly, because it mastered the seas, went farther, faster and acquired more territories than other European nations, such as France, who often had to settle for the crumbs. And certainly, Great Britain’s prize possession, the jewel in its colonies, must have been India, whose mighty borders extended then from Afghanistan to Cape Comorin.

Western civilisation must be intimately associated with Christianity, even though Christianity took different forms over the ages : Protestantism, Lutheranism, Russian Orthodoxy... According to the Hindus, Jesus Christ was an "avatar", a direct emanation from God. Christ was surely a great avatar of love.And Christianity certainly had a softening influence on the Western world, where, let's face it, barbarism was the order of the day for many centuries. In the Middle Ages for instance, Christianity was the only island of sanity in a world of rape, black plague, murders and chaos; and as the Brahmins did in India, it was the Christians who preserved the oral and written word for posterity. There have been many great saints in Christianity, men of wisdom, who strove for divine vision in austerity. Such were Saint François of Assisi’s, who reached high spiritual experience. Saint Vincent de Paul, who practised true Christian charity. Or Saint Gregory, who attained authentic knowledge. Unfortunately, Christianity, got somehow politicised and fossilised under the influence of corrupt popes and has often become a magma of dogmas, rites, do’s and don’t.

Generally, because all Christians believed - like the Muslims - that only their God was the true one, The Christian colons sought to impose upon the people they conquered their own brand of religion - and they used the military authority of their armies to do so. It is true that this was done in good faith, that the « soldiers of Christ » thought that the civilisations they stumbled upon were barbarous, pagan and incomprehensible. True also that they sincerely believed that they brought upon these « savages » the virtues of western civilisation: medicine, education and spiritual salvation. But the harm done by Christian missionaries all over the earth will never be properly assessed. In South America, the Spanish soldiers and priests annihilated, in the name of Jesus, an entire civilisation, one of the brightest ever, that of the Incas and the Aztecs. Everywhere the Christians went, they stamped mercilessly on cultures, eradicated centuries old ways of life, to replace them with totally inadequate systems, crude, Victorian, moralistic, which slowly killed the spontaneity of life of the people they conquered. They were thus able to radically alter civilisations, change their patterns of thinking. And three generations later the children of those who had been conquered, had forgotten their roots, adapted Christianity and often looked upon their conquerors as their benefactors.
Yet a few years ago, the West was able to celebrate the anniversary of Columbus, discoverer of the "New World" with fanfare and pomp. But the New World was already quite old when it was discovered by the young Barbarians, much older in fact than the fledgling Western civilisation. And Columbus, however courageous and adventurous, was a ruthless man, whose discovery of the New World triggered an unparalleled rape in human history.

Yet, not only the West still deifies Columbus, but no one in the Third World has been capable to challenge coherently that undeserved status.
The truth is that today, not only in the Western world, but also in the entire so-called developing world, we are constantly looking at things and events through a prism that has been fashioned by centuries of western thinking. and as long as we do not get rid of that tainted glass we will not understand rightly the world in general and India in particular.
For the stamp of Western civilisation will still take some time to be eradicated. By military conquest or moral assertiveness, the West imposed upon the world its ways of thinking; and it created enduring patterns, subtle disinformations and immutable grooves, which play like a record that goes on turning, long after its owner has attainded the age of decline. The barbarians who thought they had become « civilized », are being devoured by other barbarians. But today, the economic might has replaced the military killing machine.


By F.Gautier
[/tscii:8e3545938d]

[Eelavar]

[tscii:28b8e80983]THE FIST DISINFORMATION ON INDIA: THE ARYAN INVASIONS

The theory of the Aryan invasion is still taken as the foundation stone of the History of India. According to this theory, which was actually devised in the 18th and 19th century by British linguists and archaeologists, the first inhabitants of India were good-natured, peaceful, dark-skinned shepherds, called the Dravidians, who had founded what is called the Harappan - or Valley of the Indus civilisation. They were supposedly remarkable builders, witness the city of Mohenjo-Daro in Pakistani Sind, but had no culture to speak-off, no litterature, no proper script even. Then, around 1500 B.C., India is said to have been invaded by tribes called the Aryans : white-skinned, nomadic people, who originated somewhere in Western Russia and imposed upon the Dravidians the hateful caste system. To the Aryans, are attributed Sanskrit, the Vedic - or Hindu religion, India’s greatest spiritual texts, the Vedas, as well as a host of subsequent writings, the Upanishads, the Mahabharata, the Ramanaya, etc…

This was indeed a masterly stroke on the part of the British : thanks to the Aryan theory, they showed on the one hand that Indian civilisation was not that ancient and that it was posterior to the cultures which influenced the western world - Mesopotamia, Sumeria, or Babylon - and that whatever good things India had developed - Sanskrit, literature, or even its architecture, had been influenced by the West. Thus, Sanskrit, instead of being the mother of all Indo-European languages, became just a branch of their huge family; thus, the religion of Zarathustra is said to have influenced Hinduism, and not vice versa. And on the other hand, it divided India and pitted against each other the low caste dark-skinned Dravidians and the high caste light-skinned Aryans, a rift which is till enduring.

But today, this theory is being challenged by two new discoveries, one archaeological and the other linguistic. Firstly, in the Rig Veda, the Ganges, India’s sacred river, is only mentioned once, but the mythic Saraswati is praised FIFTY times. For a long time, the Saraswati river was indeed considered a myth, until the American satellite Landstat was able to photograph and map the bed of this magnificent river, which was nearly fourteen kilometres wide and took its source in the Himalayas. Archaeologist Paul-Henri Francfort, who studied the Saraswati region at the beginning of the nineties, found out that the Saraswati had "disappeared", because around 2200 B.C., an immense drought reduced the whole region to aridity and famine. "Thus, he writes, most inhabitants moved away from the Saraswati to settle on the banks of the Indus and Sutlej rivers". According to official history, the Vedas were composed around 1500 BC, some even say 1200 BC. Yet, the Rig Veda, describes India as it was BEFORE the great drought which dried-up the Saraswati, which means in effect that the so-called Indus, or Harappan civilisation was a CONTINUATION of the Vedic epoch, which ended approximately when the Saraswati dried-up.

Recently, the famous Indus seals, discovered on the site of Mohenja Daro and Harappa, have been reportedly deciphered by Dr N. Rajaram, a mathematician who worked at one time for the NASA and Dr Jha, a distinguished linguist. In the biased light of the Aryan invasion theory, these seals were presumed to be written in a crude Harappan (read Dravidian) script, although they had never been convincingly deciphered. But according to Rajaram and Jha “the Harappan Civilization, of which the seals are a product, belonged to the latter part of the Vedic Age. It had close connections with Vedantic works like the Sutras and the Upanishads. The style of writing reflects the short aphorisms found in Sutra works. The imagery and symbolism are strongly Vedic. The vocabulary depends heavily on the Vedic glossary Nighantu and its commentary by Yaska known as the Nirukta. The name of Yaska is found on at least two seals ‹ possibly three. There are references to Vedic kings and sages as well place names. Of particular interest are references to Plakshagra ‹ the birthplace of the Sarasvati River, and Sapta Apah or the Land of the Seven Rivers.
This means that the Rigveda must already have been quite ancient by the time of the Harappan Civilization. Since the Harappan Civilization was known to be flourishing in the 3100 * 1900 BC period, the Rigveda must have been in existence by 4000 BC. This now receives archaeological support following R.S. Bisht¹s investigation of the great Harappan city of Dholavira. Bisht (and other archaeologists) have concluded that the Vedic Aryans of the Sarasvati heartland were the people who created the Harappan cities and the civilization associated with it”.

Sri Aurobindo, too, India's greatest yogi, poet, philosopher- and surely its most ardent revolutionary- spoke against the Aryan theory: "We shall question many established philological myths,-the legend for instance of an Aryan invasion from the North, the artificial and inimical distinction of the Aryan and Dravidian which an erroneous philology has driven like a wedge into the unity of the homogeneous Indo-Afghan race... Like the majority of educated Indians, I had passively accepted without examination, the conclusion of European scholarship"(India's Rebirth, page 103)... He also shatters the myth of the difference of language to support the theory of meeting of races: «But here also my preconceived ideas were disturbed and confounded. For on examining the vocabulary of the Tamil language, in appearance so foreign to the Sanskrit form and character, I yet found myself continuously guided by words, or families of words supposed to be pure Tamil, in establishing new relations between Sanskrit and its distant sister, Latin, and occasionally between the Greek and the Sanskrit. Sometimes the Tamil vocable not only suggested the connection but proved the missing link in a family of connected words. And it was through this Dravidian language that I came first to perceive what seems to me now the true law, origins and, as it were, the embryology of the Aryan tongues...The possibility suggests itself that they may even have been two diversions, or families derived from one lost primitive tongue».(India's 104)

Hence, it is becoming more and more clear that there probably never was an Aryan Invasion in India, a theory which was imposed upon the subcontinent by its colonisers and is today kept alive by Nehruvian historians, Christian missionaries (it is thus easy to convert the downtrodden tribals and Dravidians, by telling them that Hinduism was a religion thrust upon them by the hated "Brahmin" invaders) and the communists (who hate anything Hindu. History should be rewritten so that Indian children learn to be proud of their ancient and INDIGENOUS civilisation - and the consequences of this new theory applied not only to Asia, but also to the entire history of the whole world.

By Francois Gautier quotation from his public book 'Arise O India'[/tscii:28b8e80983]

[Eelavar]

THE SECOND DISINFORMATION: THE CASTE SYSTEM

Even more than the Aryans-Dravidians divide and the Vedas, the caste system has been the most misunderstood, the most vilified subject of Hindu society at the hands of Western scholars and even today by "secular" Indians. But ultimately if one wants to understand the truth, the original purpose behind the caste system, one must go back to the Vedas. "Caste was originally an arrangement for the distribution of functions in society, just as much as class in Europe, but the principle on which this distribution was based was peculiar to India. A Brahmin was a Brahmin not by mere birth, but because he discharged the duty of preserving the spiritual and intellectual elevation of the race, and he had to cultivate the spiritual temperament and acquire the spiritual training which alone would qualify him for the task. The Kshatryia was Kshatryia not merely because he was the son of warriors and princes, but because he discharged the duty of protecting the country and preserving the high courage and manhood of action, and he had to cultivate the princely temperament and acquire the strong and lofty Samurai training which alone fitted him for his duties. So it was for the Vaishya whose function was to amass wealth for the race and the Shudra who discharged the humbler duties of service without which the other castes could not perform their share of labour for the common, good". (Sri Aurobindo, in India's Rebirth, p 26).
Many Indian sages have even gone even further than Sri Aurobindo, arguing that in the occult relation India had with the Universal Force, each one was born in the caste CORRESPONDING to his or her spiritual evolution. There are accidents, misfits, errors, they say, but the system seems to have worked pretty well untill modern times when it got perverted by the vagaries of materialism and western influence. Can one accept such a theory? Sri Aurobindo, while praising the original caste system, does not spare it in its later stages: "it is the nature of human institutions to degenerate; there is no doubt that the institution of caste degenerated. It ceased to be determined by spiritual qualifications which, once essential, have now come to be subordinate and even immaterial and is determined by the purely material tests of occupation and birth... By this change it has set itself against the fundamental tendency of Hinduism which is to insist on the spiritual and subordinate the material and thus lost most of its meaning. the spirit of caste arrogance, exclusiveness and superiority came to dominate it instead of the spirit of duty, and the change weakened the nation and helped to reduce us to our present condition...(India's Rebirth, p 27). And the Barbarians came !

But finally, have the people who dismiss caste as an Aryan imposition on the Dravidians, or as an inhuman and nazi system, ever attempted to understand its original purpose and genius? Is it really worse than the huge class differences you can see nowadays in Europe ? And can you really exclude it today off-hand, when it still survives so much in the villages - and even in more educated circles, where one still marries in matching castes, with the help of an astrologer? Does the caste system need to be transformed, to recapture its old meaning and once more incarnate a spiritual hierarchy of beings? Or has it to be recast in a different mould, taking into account the parameters of modern Indian society? Or else, will it finally disappear altogether from India, because it has become totally irrelevant today ?
At any rate, Hindus should not allow it to be exploited shamelessly against them, as it has been in the last two centuries, by missionnaries, "secular" historians, Muslims, and by pre and post-independance Indian politicians -each for their own purpose.

[Eelavar]

[tscii:4f1e046535]

THE THIRD DISINFORMATION: THE VEDAS

The third piece of disinformation concerns the Vedic religion. Ah, the Vedas! So much misconception, so many prejudices, so much distortion have been spewed about this monument of a book, this unparalleled epic. French historian Danielou, for instance, maintains that the original Vedas « were an oral Dravidian tradition, which was reshaped by the Aryans and later put down in Sanskrit ». According to Danielou, the Mahabarata is the story of how the low caste Dravidians = the Pandavas, revolted against the high caste Aryans =the Kauravas, who had enslaved them during their conquest - and won, helped by the dark-skinned Krishna, a Dravidian of course. Danielou finds lineage between the Vedic religion and the Persian religion (Zarathustra), as well as the Greek Gods; the problem is that he seems to imply that the Vedic religion may have sprung from the Zoroastrian creed! He also puts down all Vedic symbols as purely physical signs: for instance Agni is the fire that should always burn in the house's altar. Finally, he sees in the Rig-Veda "only a remarkable document on the mode of life, society and history of the Aryans".(Histoire de l'Inde, page 62)

But Danielou must be the mildests of all critics. The real disinformation started again with the missionnaries, who saw in the Vedas "the root of the evil", the source of paganism and went systematically about belittling it. The Jesuits, in their dialectical cleverness, brought it down to a set of pagan offerings without great importance. Henceforth, this theory was perpetuated by most Western historians, who not only stripped the Vedas of any spiritual value, but actually post-dated them to approximately 1500 to 1000 years B.C. It is very unfortunate that these theories have been taken-up blindly and without trying to ascertain their truth, by many Indian historians and sociologists such as Romila Tharpar.
And even when more enlightened foreigners like Max Mueller, whose Sanskrit scholarship cannot be denied, took up the Vedas, they only saw "that it is full of childish, silly, even monstrous conceptions, that it is tedious, low, commonplace, that it represents human nature on a low level of selfishness and worldliness and that only here and there are a few rare sentiments that come from the depths of the soul'

If there ever was one who disagreed with the Western view, be it of Danielou, or Max Mueller on the Vedas, it was Sri Aurobindo : "I seek not science, not religion, not Theosophy, but Veda -the truth about Brahman, not only about His essentiality, but also about His manifestation, not a lamp on the way to the forest, but a light and a guide to joy and action in the world, the truth which is beyond opinion, the knowledge which all thought strives after -'yasmin vijnate sarvam vijnatam' (which being known, all is known). I believe that Veda be the foundation of the Sanatan Dharma; I believe it to be the concealed divinity within Hinduism, -but a veil has to be drawn aside, a curtain has to be lifted. I belive it to be knowable and discoverable. I believe the future of India and the world depends on its discovery and on its application, not to the renunciation of life, but to life in the world and among men". (India's Rebirth, page 90)
Sri Aurobindo contended that Europeans have seen in the Vedas "only the rude chants of an antique and pastoral race sung in honor of the forces of nature and succeeded in imposing them on the Indian intellect". But he insisted that a time must come "when the Indian mind will shake off the darkness that has fallen upon it, cease to think or hold opinions at second and third hand and reassert its right to judge and enquire in perfect freedom into the meaning of its own scriptures". He argued that the Veda remains the foundation of Indian culture: "the Veda was the beginning of our spiritual knowledge, the Veda will remain its end. The recovery of the perfect truth of the Veda is therefore not merely a desideratum for our modern intellectual curiosity, but a practical necessity for the future of the human race. For I firmly believe that the secret concealed in the Veda, when entirely discovered, will be found to formulate perfectly that knowledge and practice of divine life to which the march of humanity, after long wanderings in the satisfaction of the intellect and senses, must inevitably return." (India's rebirth, 94)

What is the Secret of the Vedas? First we have to discard the ridiculously early dates given by historians and bring it back to at least 4000 BC. Why did historians show such an eagerness in post-dating the Vedas and making of them just a mumble-jumble of pagan superstition? Because it would have destroyed the West's idea of its own supremacy: primitive barbarism could not possibly have risen to such high conceptions so early, particularly when the Westerners have started our era after the birth of Christ and decreed that the world began on 23rd October 4004 B.C...!
Secondly, the Vedic seers, who had attained the ultimate truth, had clothed their oral findings in symbols and images, so that only the initiated would understand the true meaning of their aphorisms. For the more ordinary souls, "those who were not yet twice born", it meant only an outer worship which was fit for their level of spiritual evolution. The Vedic rituals, has lost its profound meaning to us. Therefore, as Sri Aurobindo elucidates, when we read: "Sarama by the path of the Truth discovers the herds", the mind is stopped and baffled by an unfamiliar language. It has to be translated to us.. into a plainer and less figured thought: "Intuitions by the way of Truth arrive at the hidden illuminations". (India's rebirth, 109) Lacking the clues, we only see in the Vedas a series of meaningless mouthings about the herds or the Sun. Sri Aurobindo remarks that the Vedic rishis "may not have yoked the lighting to their chariots, nor weighed sun and star, nor materialized all the destructive forces of Nature to aid them in massacre and domination, but they had measured and fathomed all the heavens and earth within us, they had cast their plummet into the inconscient and the subconscient and the supraconscient; they had read the riddle of death and found the secret of immortality; they had sought for and discovered the One and known and worshipped Him in the glories of His light and purity and wisdom and power". (India's rebirth, 116)

Ah, these are the two secrets of the Vedas, then, the reason why they have remained so obscure and lost their original meaning. Firstly, the Vedic rishis had realized that God is One, but He takes many faces in His manifestation; this is the very foundation of Hinduism. And Secondly, the Vedic rishis had gone down in their minds and their bodies all the way to the roots of Death, to that eternal question which haunts humanity since the beginning of times: why death? What is the purpose of living if one has alaways to die? Why the inevitable decay and oblivion? And there, in their own bodies, at the bottom rock of the Inconscient, they had discovered the secret of immortality, which Sri Aurobindo called later the Supramental and which he said was the next step in humanity's evolution... "Not some mysterious elixir of youth, but the point, the spring where All is One and death disappears in the face of the Supreme Knowledge and Ananda." (India's rebirth, 95)
Is this then the work of a few uncivilized sheperds, who had colonized the poor Dravidians? No wonder the West cannot recognize the Vedas for what they are, the whole foundation of their moral domination would then collapse.
All the subsequent scriptures of Hinduism derive from the Vedas, even though some of them lost sight of the original Vedic sense. The Vedas are the foundations of Indian culture; the greatest power of the Vedic teaching, that which made it the source of all later Indian philosophies, religions, systems of yoga, lay in its application to the inner life of man. Man lives in the physical cosmos, subject to death and the falsehood of mortal existence. To rise beyond death, to become one of the immortals, he has to turn from the falsehood to the Truth; he has to turn onto the Light, to battle with and conquer the powers of Darkness. This he does by communion with the Divine Powers and their aid; the way to call down these aids was the secret of the vedic mystics. "The symbols of the outer sacrifice are given for this purpose in the manner of the Mysteries all over the world an inner meaning; they represent a calling of the Gods into the human being, a connecting sacrifice, an intimate interchange, a mutual aid, a communion".(Foundations of Indian Culture. p 145). Sri Aurobindo also emphasizes that the work that was done in this period became the firm bedrock of India's spirituality in later ages and from it "gush still the life-giving waters of perennial never failing inspiration".

[/tscii:4f1e046535]

[Eelavar]

dsath,

The caste system during the succesive invasions was perverted !

At the beginning the caste system was not as the actual duty manipulated and corrupted system.

At the beginning it a was wonderful social-economic system which permit to one who work to live a decent life as an another citizen ! It was better than capitalism and communism togheter !

Another important fact, the old caste system was not hereditary as now !
Your caste was CHOICED in function of your own capacities !
Persons of the same family could be of different castes !

[Eelavar]

Friends,

Read those quotations fully, it's very interesting from the beginning to the end !

[manyvan2000]

dsath,

The caste system during the succesive invasions was perverted !

At the beginning the caste system was not as the actual duty manipulated and corrupted system.

At the beginning it a was wonderful social-economic system which permit to one who work to live a decent life as an another citizen ! It was better than capitalism and communism togheter !

Another important fact, the old caste system was not hereditary as now !
Your caste was CHOICED in function of your own capacities !
Persons of the same family could be of different castes !

My views following these lines...
sanskrit and tamil were different dialects of the same language, that, at some point of time, became totally incomprehensible to both sides.

The initial people were farmers. To protect their crops from animals, they started appointing strong people as kathiriyars, these people probably being the strongest of them. Their primary responsibility is to guard. As they started piling the produce, they started trading with other people. Since everyone cannot go to other places to trade, again, specific people were there to do that. Later these people also went overseas. ( note: its said that the first major export from india to europe was pepper. ta: vasikam - pepper. vasikar - vanikar - pepper people. thirayar - sea people). Finally comes the natural disasters - flood, storms and famine. Someone had to study nature, come up with explanation why these happen and solution to prevent / evade these. These were the brahmins.

Since these people had the duty to protect the crops, trade and to predict nature (which till today is a challenge), they couldnt do any other tasks. In reply, the farmers will share food with them. Later there could have been subdivision of these castes based on specific duties - velan, pallan, rayan etc. These people were called suthirars ( technicians)

A person is born a brahmin/ kathiriyan/ vasikar / suthirar : This is the most commonly misinterpreted statement. Even today, we agree that some people are born intelligent, born brave, born businessman etc. My understanding is this statement says "When a person is born, he/she has some skill associated with him and he becomes that". There is no statement which says that a person has to take up the work / caste his family is into. In short, for instance, a person who is "born a brahmin", not necessarily belongs to a "brahmin family". The person's father could be a "suthirar" and mother could be a "vasikar". unfortunately most of the old texts have been misinterpreted and are being followed in the wrong sense.

The statement "if a brahmin makes a mistake, he shall be forgiven" implies that since the duties of a brahmin(not a person born by a brahmin) are related to nature, which can never be expected to yield proper results, his mistakes shall be forgiven.

In tamil, "aiyam" = "odu". A brahmin is not supposed to have anything to his own. He had to beg or "look at others" even for food. That's why they are called "(ethir)parpar". That is the primary reason, brahmins were treated as next to god. Since they dedicated their life for the well being of others. Again, nowhere does it say that a brahmin is a person born in a brahmin family.

The tamil word "kalai" refers to dialect. Brahmins are broadly classified as "vadakalai" and "thenkalai" - northern and southern dialects. To my understanding, almost all of the "vadakalai" brahmins prefer sanskrit. The "thenkalai" brahmins prefer tamil. But in general, the "thenkalai" brahmins do not have great madams like the "vadakalai" brahmins and hence, we think that all brahmins prefer sanskrit.

Even untouchability seems to be a misinterpretation to me. If I say "no one touches my friend while I am here", it doesnt literally mean "to touch". Similarly, the original text could have meant something like that. Also, since these people were mostly doing a lot of brain work, they were physically weak. (Even today it is true. Look at the people in IT. They are much weaker than the factory workers. A small contamination and they fell ill.) So people had to be clean before feeding the brahmins. Also, the brahmins themselves had to be clean.

These have been twisted in some later point of time and have been totally mistaken. With the arrival of christian missionaries, who can never understand either the indian languages or culture or hinduism, everything has been diverted and we started believing what they wanted us to believe.

[Eelavar]

manyvan2000 wrote


These have been twisted in some later point of time and have been totally mistaken. With the arrival of christian missionaries, who can never understand either the indian languages or culture or hinduism, everything has been diverted and we started believing what they wanted us to believe.

Totally agree. But we must not forgot that Christians were not the first invaders !
This corrupted system is so not only due to christians missionaries.
In fact, the old system was attacked by every invaders.

[manyvan2000]

Totally agree. But we must not forgot that Christians were not the first invaders !
This corrupted system is so not only due to christians missionaries.
In fact, the old system was attacked by every invaders.

Of course. I did not deny that. In fact, the system was misunderstood even before the invaders. The effects of our mistake became worse with invaders and the worst with the advent of the missionaries.

[mahadevan]

So much for tolerance in an Islamic country

Hindu temple demolished in Malaysia
Search for More News
Kuala Lumpur, April 21: Malaysian authorities have bulldozed a century-old Hindu temple in Kuala Lumpur, as devotees cried and begged them to stop, Hindu groups said today.


The Malaimel Sri Selva Kaliamman Temple was reduced to rubble after Kuala Lumpur's city hall sent in bulldozers, they said.


In a complaint to police, the temple's vice-president, Subramaniam Ragappan, said about 300 devotees were praying Tuesday when the bulldozers arrived, accompanied by police and city hall officials.


"We were forced to stop our prayers and (rituals) halfway as they proceeded to tear down the temple," he said in a copy of the complaint obtained by a news agency.


A copy of a letter from city hall to a local lawmaker, who had asked for the temple to be left intact, said the demolition was going ahead to make way for a building project.


City hall officials were not immediately available for comment.


Subramaniam said city hall tried in 2001 and again in 2004 to tear down the building, which was on government land, but had been dissuaded by politicians.


"Everybody was crying and saying how could the government do this, but they still broke the temple," he told the news agency. (Agencies)

[Eelavar]

mahadevan, i find it's a very ugly act !

If in modern time it sill happen, just imagine how many of those temples were destroyed and remplaced by Islamists in the past.

[Lambretta]

mahadevan, i find it's a very ugly act !

If in modern time it sill happen, just imagine how many of those temples were destroyed and remplaced by Islamists in the past.
Unbelievably shocking!! :shock: :oops: :( :evil:

[srivatsan]

So much for tolerance in an Islamic country

Hindu temple demolished in Malaysia
Search for More News
Kuala Lumpur, April 21: Malaysian authorities have bulldozed a century-old Hindu temple in Kuala Lumpur, as devotees cried and begged them to stop, Hindu groups said today.


The Malaimel Sri Selva Kaliamman Temple was reduced to rubble after Kuala Lumpur's city hall sent in bulldozers, they said.


In a complaint to police, the temple's vice-president, Subramaniam Ragappan, said about 300 devotees were praying Tuesday when the bulldozers arrived, accompanied by police and city hall officials.


"We were forced to stop our prayers and (rituals) halfway as they proceeded to tear down the temple," he said in a copy of the complaint obtained by a news agency.


A copy of a letter from city hall to a local lawmaker, who had asked for the temple to be left intact, said the demolition was going ahead to make way for a building project.


City hall officials were not immediately available for comment.


Subramaniam said city hall tried in 2001 and again in 2004 to tear down the building, which was on government land, but had been dissuaded by politicians.


"Everybody was crying and saying how could the government do this, but they still broke the temple," he told the news agency. (Agencies)

This is not a shock for me....this is quite usual...my surprize is, how this temple was left unrazed so far... :shock:

[Surya]

Dear Hubbers,

Although I do agree with ur comments 100%, I do think that we should be a little more discreet or polished about our views on current events if we want this thread to stand, because the Mods will lock it. Being too open about our Socio Political ideas will have dire concequences @ the hub since it's a mixture of different minds. Trust me, I would know. :oops: I've been on the verge of getting banned numerous times because of it. :)

[Lambretta]

Dear Hubbers,

Although I do agree with ur comments 100%, I do think that we should be a little more discreet or polished about our views on current events if we want this thread to stand, because the Mods will lock it. Being too open about our Socio Political ideas will have dire concequences @ the hub since it's a mixture of different minds. Trust me, I would know. :oops: I've been on the verge of getting banned numerous times because of it. :)
Oops! Ur rite, Suri machi! :D

We shudnt go overboard w/ our ocmments....! Tks for highlighting us on this! :D

[crazy]

i think the worsest genocide we r going through is hindus converting into other religions!
especially in foreign countries, those christian sects gives money for converting from hinduism to christianity!

i dont get the point why hindus converts at all! doesn't ur God said that he is everywhere and he is everyone, then why convert? if u feel some religions r better than hinduism then practise it, ur religion or god didnt say that u should only worship him, to the contrary of other religions!?

[Surya]

Lamby Machi, :thumbsup: :D :D


Crazy,

Xtian Conversion in India has nothing to do with Faith. Hmm..Conversion is sort of a "Hot Button" issue @ the hub....let me be as polished as possible. :)

No Offence or anything to Any Xtian Friends @ the hub....I'm just saying this in regards to the Foreign Missionaries....

Why Hindus Convert? What Tactics do these Missionaries use to convert Hindus....

*Caste System. Offered Escape From It if Converted to Xtianity. (Not True. The Converted People still call themselves "Brahmin Converted" or "Thevar Converted" etc etc. :)

*Money. Offered Money when in a tight situation. For Ex. A personal situaton. A few years ago, my cousin fell fatally ill. She was admitted in a Hosp in Chennai, the bills kept piling up, and after a couple years, my Uncle no longer had the financial Capability to pay the bills. He was approached by an Xtian Mission. They Claimed that they would Pay My Uncle everything he has spent so far, and also pay the forthcoming bills. But the catch was, he had to change his faith. My Family is a very strong Hindu Family, and when he heard this, he said that there was no way of that happening. Later on he got financial help for the expences from Us, and other Family Members. My cousin now works in New York, she is completly recovered, she's still a strong hindu, and she's doing great. But the point is that, usually people do convert when in that situation. These Missions which are funded from Foreign Countries take advantage of the financial situation of Hindus.

Nothing wrong in Preaching One's Religion, as long as it is the Religion's Philosophy and Ideas which are being preached.

I'm going to stop here, because it's getting way off of the topic. But if you fele like you must know more, then go This Link (http://www.christianaggression.org/) to learn about it. :) We could create another thread, but that wouldn't stand. :)

[crazy]

Crazy,

Xtian Conversion in India has nothing to do with Faith. Hmm..Conversion is sort of a "Hot Button" issue @ the hub....let me be as polished as possible. :)

:)

iam not talking about whats happening in india. iam talking about how ppl convert from hinduism to other religion in foreign countries!
and they do convert not b'coz of caste system or money! most of those ppl have enough money, they convert b'coz of ................god know why!

[crazy]

thank u surya for ur links!
that was intresting! i just read about portuguese ruined jaffna!

[Eelavar]

crazy,

The uneducated poor portuguese invaders were certainly those who destroyed the most my homeland !

[kannannn]

This thread seems to branch out to different issues concerned with muslim attitude in general and our government's continued policy of appeasement of minorities.

There is nothing wrong in documenting the atrocities commited by one religious sect against another. I completely agree with some of the views presented regarding the barbarious raids of muslims in the medieval period and the theocratic rule of latter muslim kings. But the whole subject should be viewed in the context of the completely different situations that existed then and exist now. During the invasion of muslims, there were no international laws that governed the relationship between countries or kingdoms. So, it is no surprise that attrocities commited during Crusades and Islamic invasions went unpunished. But international laws provide safeguards, though flawed at times, today to counter and punish any such adventure.

Attempts to draw inspiration from the Jewish outcry over the holocaust is unnecessary. The holocaust has remained the single most potent weapon of Jews in general and Israel in particular to garner support and sympathy from US and other European countries (Berlin is strewn with Holocaust museums and I was surprised that even the public opinion poll at the end of the exhibition at 'Anne Frank House' in Amsterdam is evenly divided about the right to deny the claimed excesses during the holocaust) in its continued oppression of the Palestinian people. We should not allow such a situation to occur in our country. The current generation should not be made accountable and persecuted for the excesses commited in the long past. Unfortunately, our shrewd religious leaders have largely succeeded in sowing the seeds of hatred based on these very same issues.

As for minority appeasement, my view is that the common civil code should be implemented and any attempts to introduce reservation for the minority community should be nipped out. The uniform civil code is a must for the good of the minorities themselves. If used right, many of the archaic practices can be done away with and development of the minority community will automatically follow. We should understand that secularism means a religionless government and not one that supports the varied religious practices of its citizens.

Finally all this reinforces my notion: why religion at all? It seems to spread more hatred than love.

[Sandeep]

[tscii:38385d258e]Timur

I hate such long posts but this one I couldnt brief without loosing the essence.

In 1397 Timur-i-lang obtained the intelligence that the Tughlaq Sultanate in India was on the decline. After the destruction the Southern Alliance of Mir Hussain (whose grandfather, Amir Qazaghan of Balkh was a great backer of Mohamed bin Tughlaq and Firoz Shah Tughlaq) and the conquest of Balkh by Timur, the Tughlaqs lost the backing of the Southern Alliance and the buffer provided by this alliance against the Central Asian Khanates. As a consequence the Kokhars of the Salt Range under Raja Jasrat led a massive rebellion against Mahmud Shah Tughlaq. In South India too, the Tughlaq armies were repulsed by the Hindu revival, and the local Islamic governors of Bijapur, Golconda and Ahmednagar broke free from Delhi. Turkic chieftains in Bengal, Gujarat and Avadh also crowned themselves local Sultans. The Rajput chief Rai Dalachandra liberated himself from the Tughlaqs and took the forts of Bhatnair and Loni on the road from Multan to Delhi. Timur saw a great opportunity of plundering India, and also that for a Jihad on the polytheists. The Zafar Nama piously announces: “There arose in my heart the desire to lead a jihad against the infidels, and to become a ghazi; for it had reached my ears that the slayer of infidels is a ghazi, and if he is slain instead while fighting the fire-worshipers he becomes a shahid. It was on this account that I formed this resolution, but I was undetermined in my mind whether I should direct my jihad against the infidels of China or against the idolaters and polytheists of India. In this matter I sought an omen from the Quran, and the verse I opened upon was this: O Prophet, make war upon infidels and unbelievers and treat them with severity. The Quran emphasizes that the highest dignity which man may attain is to wage war in person on the enemies of the Faith. This why I, the great Timur-i-Lang was always concerned about exterminating the worshipers of the fire and the sun, as much to acquire merit as from the love of undying glory.”

He held a Quriltai in 1398 and asked his grand Amirs to give their opinions on the plan to invade India. Some of his Amirs said that in the past Sultan Mahmud Ghaznavi the descendent of the Turkish lord Subuqtegin conquered Hindustan with a mere 30,000 cavalry, and established his own naukers as rulers of Hind. He slaughtered Hindus and carried off many thousand carts of gold, silver and jewels from them, besides subjecting them to Jaziya. They posed the rhetoric question: “is our Amir inferior to Sultan Mahmud?” And replied “Allah has made our exalted Amir Timur-i-lang the lord of an even mightier army of Mongols and Turks. He will become a ghazi and mujahid before Allah, we shall be attendants on an Amir who is a ghazi, the army will be contented, the treasury rich and well filled with the gold of Hindustan”. Then Shah Rukh, his youngest son spoke “The conquest of India, it is said is a higher honor than bearing titles like Kha’Khan, Caesar, Shahinshah, Sultan or Faghfur. So it would be a pity if we were not to exterminate the Indians” Then Pir Mohamed, his grandson spoke “We have to grab that land which is full of gold, jewels, and in it there are seventeen mines of gold, silver, diamonds, rubies, emeralds, tin, iron, lead, copper and mercury.” Timur, pleased by these words, stated “I have made up my mind to rid India of the filth of the polytheistic Hindus who make offerings in fire called Yazad, destroy their temples and idols, and become ghazis and mujahids before Allah.”

In January 1398 Timur sent a raiding squadron under his grandson Pir Mohamed from Balkh to attack Multan (Mulasthana) and sent another army under his other grandson Mirza Iskander to assault Lahore. Pir forded the Sindhu and besieged Multan and bombarded it with trebuchets and fire pots. After a protracted siege of six months he took the city and looted it completely. In the mean time Iskander took Lahore and they prepared the path for Timur. Timur took his own course; first he decided to destroy the Kalasha Kafirs of Afghanistan. The Kalasha were an ancient Indo-Iranian tribe, who represented the last surviving group of the 3rd branch of the Indo-Iranian peoples. They were inveterate pagans worshiping the old Indo-Iranian deities, completely unaffected by Islam that had washed away the Indo-Aryan culture all around them. Timur decided to strike them in the upper reaches of the Panjshir valley. But he was prevented from entering the valley by the Kalasha Raja, who was blocking the advance of Timur through a guerrilla attack from Siah Posh. He sent a second force of 10,000 cavalry to take Siah Posh, but the Kalasha Raja demolished it through a surprise sally. Furious over this Timur decided to directly attack the Panjshir valley despite the heavy snow. He set up a system of pulleys and lowered his troops into the valley via large baskets braving severe cold and snow storms. Having entered the valley his spread mayhem amidst the Kafirs. However, they fled to the mountains and continued to fight. Timur dejected over the hold up, built fortifications to fend off the Kafirs and marched on, exiting the valley at Khawak. Before leaving he carved an inscription on the mountain defiles of Kator marking his invasion of the Kafir land.

Proceeding south, Timur with a force of 93,000 horsemen, crossed the Sindhu on Sept.24th 1398 and made a broad sweep towards the rich town of Talamba, north of Multan. Having sacked and obliterated the city, he merged with his grandsons’ tuemens at Multan. Then the combined Timurid army marched rapidly towards the west bank of Shutudri (Sutlej) river. Here Timur took on Raja Jasrat and having killed him in a quick heavy cavalry charge, destroyed the Khokhar army. The survivors were forcibly converted to Islam at the threat of immediate execution. Having crossed the river he secured the Multan-Delhi road and started his march on Delhi. The fort of Bhatnair stood on this road and offered formidable defense against the invader. Timur promptly besieged the fort after sweeping through the countryside and forced Rai Dalachandra into the defensive. On 10th November 1398, he suddenly assaulted fort with giant fort-breaking ballistas that hurled huge rocks over a ton on the fort walls. Prince Shah Rukh, Mazid al Baghdadi and Jahan Maliq, Timur’s fierce generals, led the assault on the Hindus. The Hindus retaliated with an heavy rain fireworks from their ramparts, but the Timurids pushed on building mines to break the ramparts. Finally, the fort ramparts were demolished and the Timurid army rushed into the fort capturing Dalachandra and killing other defenders after much desperate fighting at close quarters.

Timur then sacked the town of Sirsuti (on the old Sarasvati) and destroyed it completely slaying numerous Hindus. Then he quickly took the towns of Aspandi, Kaithal, Samana and completely depopulated them. He states that while destroying these places he noticed several fire-worshipers, similar to the Parsis of Iran and exterminated them in the true spirit of a ghazi (most probably he meant Brahmins). On 5th December he sacked Panipat and took the wheat granaries there as the Hindus fled in terror on hearing of his approach. On December 10th he proceed to attack the Loni that stood the north-east of Delhi, the Hindu defenders shaken by the loss of their chief failed to put an effective fight and were trashed by the Timurid army. Timur seized about 100,000 Hindus after the battle by encircling them in a crescent-like movement, even as held their mass Mongols hunting expeditions on the steppe. He ordered his men to slaughter each one of them right away. He proudly describes how a Mullah who had not even killed a sparrow in the past now slew several Hindus with great enthusiasm. On December 17th he reached the banks of the Yamuna, between Delhi and Panipat and engaged the Tughlaq army commanded by Mallu Iqbal and Sultan Mahmud Shah Tughlaq. Timur’s troops first fired bolts shaped like spiked tetrahedra on the field in front of them and retreated behind this zone of spikes. The Tughlaq army seeing the Timurids seeming to retreat, led a direct elephant charge. But, this was immediately nullified as the elephants’s feet were spiked by the tetrahedra. The Delhi cavalry was pressed into a charge on a short notice and was engaged by the right wing of Timur’s army comprising of cavalry archers. As the Delhi cavalry was being mowed down by the Central Asian archers, the left wing of Timur’s army, comprising of the heavily armored cavalry, encircled the right wing of the Tughlaq army, and cut it down. The Tughlaq army faced complete encirclement: Mallu Iqbal was killed and he was speared like a kebob and displayed to force the survivors to surrender. Mahmud Tughlaq escaped just before the encirclement and fled to Gujarat, even as his army lay “with heads and hands mixed with the trunks of the pachyderm”.

Timur triumphantly marched into Delhi and the Ulema begged him to spare the lives of the Moslems. He asked them to proclaim him the exalted sultan of Hindustan. The Hindus seeing that they faced a brutal death revolted enmasse and were slaughtered with much fury in the fierce fighting that broke out through the streets of Delhi. Four pyramids of the heads of slaughtered Hindus were set up in the four corner of Delhi and only the qualified craftsmen were bound and sent off in slave trains to Samarqand. Any Moslems who failed to give Timur’s troops their supplies were also forthwith roasted like Kebobs. Timur spent 15 days in Delhi solemnly occupying the throne of Delhi declaring himself emperor of India. He summoned 120 elephants and made them bow their heads and kneel before him in obeisance and trumpet in unison. He felt that it marked the submission of Hindustan itself at the feet of the world conqueror. He then sent off the elephants in long strings to the Herat, Tabriz, Shiraz and Samarqand. The treasury was taken by Timur and in one stroke the wealth that the Moslem rulers had robbed from Indians over two centuries, comprising of incalculable amounts of gold, silver and gems. He then performed his Islamic prayers in the old Jami Masjid, placed a cleric from Bokhara as its Imam and had him read the Friday Namaz in his name. Finally on January 1, 1399 when the stench of the corpses made his stay impossible, he ordered his troops to burn down Delhi, except for the Moslem quarters, and proceeded to attack Meerut. In Meerut he demolished all the Hindu temples and captured the Hindu inhabitants. The Hindus were then skinned alive or their throats were slit. Timur triumphantly declared that he had observed his vow of waging Jihad and then burnt the city down. He then obtained intelligence regarding the flourishing Indian shrines in Haradwara and decided to destroy them and defile the Ganga with blood of cows and “wearers of the thread”. To this end he fell upon a large group of pilgrims, north of Meerut, who were advancing for the Mela on Ganga and slaughtered several thousands of them. As he advanced towards the banks of the Ganga, when Hindus of all denominations, from throughout the region, both men and women, decided to stop him at all costs. 200000 Indians assembled with whatever weapons they could gather and decided to block the path to the Ganga and the temples of Haradwara. At Bhokar Heri near Ganga the Hindu force took on the Timurid army in a frontal assault. Though Timur was vastly outnumbered, his cavalry was much larger, as only a small subset of the 200000 Hindus, namely the Rajput and Brahmin fighters had horses. The battle raged on fiercely for 3 days with Timur’s general Suleyman Shah leading the charge; despite heavy losses the Hindus, in resolute defense of their holy sites kept their flag aloft, with most of the Rajputs falling in battle. Timur seeing no major gains from this encounter, and also fearing attacks on his heavy booty, decided to withdraw without reaching the Ganga (Though he claims that he crossed it). He captured numerous cows and buffaloes that he used as food in his advance.

He returned taking a northerly route along the Siwaliks and attacked the fortress of Trisarta (modern Kangra) that was under the control of the Raja Ratana Sena and Raja Brihata. The Hindu defenders were beaten in an involved charge led by his heavily armored cavalry. Brihata was slain first and the Hindu women in camp fell into the hand of the Timurid army, much to his delight. He next killed Ratana Sena after a fierce battle that was led by Pir Mohamed and Suleyman Shah and captured 50,000 Hindus as slaves to be sent off to Samarqand and Bukhara. Then he engaged the Hindu Raja of Jammu, Maaladeva again near Jammu and crushed his forces in the encounter. He captured Maaladeva while he was fleeing near the upper Chenab and had the great joy of making him eat beef and forsake Hinduism for Islam. Sikander, the Sultan of Kashmir, humbly submitted to Timur and accepted his suzerainty. He then appointed Khizr Khan Sayyid as viceroy in Delhi and a local Moslem warlord as the governor of Multan. Rich in booty and slaves he triumphantly returned to Samarqand.


Nehru's view on Timur-i-Lang

"Late in the fourteenth century, Timur, the Turk or Turco-Mongol, came down from the north in India; he came to Delhi and went back. But all along his route he created a wilderness adorned with pyramids of skulls of those he had slain; and Delhi itself became a city of the dead. Fortunately he did not go far and only some parts of the Punjab and Delhi had to suffer this terrible affliction." wrote Nehru in his "Discovery Of India".[/tscii:38385d258e]

[crazy]

crazy,

The uneducated poor portuguese invaders were certainly those who destroyed the most my homeland !

our homeland!
iam not good at tamil eelam history! i just went through the link and read those stuffs!

[crazy]

sandeep ur post was long indeed! i have to print out and read! send u comments after having read!

[srivatsan]

[tscii:2fc0418f06]Timur

I hate such long posts but this one I couldnt brief without loosing the essence.

In 1397 Timur-i-lang obtained the intelligence that the Tughlaq Sultanate in India was on the decline. After the destruction the Southern Alliance of Mir Hussain (whose grandfather, Amir Qazaghan of Balkh was a great backer of Mohamed bin Tughlaq and Firoz Shah Tughlaq) and the conquest of Balkh by Timur, the Tughlaqs lost the backing of the Southern Alliance and the buffer provided by this alliance against the Central Asian Khanates. As a consequence the Kokhars of the Salt Range under Raja Jasrat led a massive rebellion against Mahmud Shah Tughlaq. In South India too, the Tughlaq armies were repulsed by the Hindu revival, and the local Islamic governors of Bijapur, Golconda and Ahmednagar broke free from Delhi. Turkic chieftains in Bengal, Gujarat and Avadh also crowned themselves local Sultans. The Rajput chief Rai Dalachandra liberated himself from the Tughlaqs and took the forts of Bhatnair and Loni on the road from Multan to Delhi. Timur saw a great opportunity of plundering India, and also that for a Jihad on the polytheists. The Zafar Nama piously announces: “There arose in my heart the desire to lead a jihad against the infidels, and to become a ghazi; for it had reached my ears that the slayer of infidels is a ghazi, and if he is slain instead while fighting the fire-worshipers he becomes a shahid. It was on this account that I formed this resolution, but I was undetermined in my mind whether I should direct my jihad against the infidels of China or against the idolaters and polytheists of India. In this matter I sought an omen from the Quran, and the verse I opened upon was this: O Prophet, make war upon infidels and unbelievers and treat them with severity. The Quran emphasizes that the highest dignity which man may attain is to wage war in person on the enemies of the Faith. This why I, the great Timur-i-Lang was always concerned about exterminating the worshipers of the fire and the sun, as much to acquire merit as from the love of undying glory.”

He held a Quriltai in 1398 and asked his grand Amirs to give their opinions on the plan to invade India. Some of his Amirs said that in the past Sultan Mahmud Ghaznavi the descendent of the Turkish lord Subuqtegin conquered Hindustan with a mere 30,000 cavalry, and established his own naukers as rulers of Hind. He slaughtered Hindus and carried off many thousand carts of gold, silver and jewels from them, besides subjecting them to Jaziya. They posed the rhetoric question: “is our Amir inferior to Sultan Mahmud?” And replied “Allah has made our exalted Amir Timur-i-lang the lord of an even mightier army of Mongols and Turks. He will become a ghazi and mujahid before Allah, we shall be attendants on an Amir who is a ghazi, the army will be contented, the treasury rich and well filled with the gold of Hindustan”. Then Shah Rukh, his youngest son spoke “The conquest of India, it is said is a higher honor than bearing titles like Kha’Khan, Caesar, Shahinshah, Sultan or Faghfur. So it would be a pity if we were not to exterminate the Indians” Then Pir Mohamed, his grandson spoke “We have to grab that land which is full of gold, jewels, and in it there are seventeen mines of gold, silver, diamonds, rubies, emeralds, tin, iron, lead, copper and mercury.” Timur, pleased by these words, stated “I have made up my mind to rid India of the filth of the polytheistic Hindus who make offerings in fire called Yazad, destroy their temples and idols, and become ghazis and mujahids before Allah.”

In January 1398 Timur sent a raiding squadron under his grandson Pir Mohamed from Balkh to attack Multan (Mulasthana) and sent another army under his other grandson Mirza Iskander to assault Lahore. Pir forded the Sindhu and besieged Multan and bombarded it with trebuchets and fire pots. After a protracted siege of six months he took the city and looted it completely. In the mean time Iskander took Lahore and they prepared the path for Timur. Timur took his own course; first he decided to destroy the Kalasha Kafirs of Afghanistan. The Kalasha were an ancient Indo-Iranian tribe, who represented the last surviving group of the 3rd branch of the Indo-Iranian peoples. They were inveterate pagans worshiping the old Indo-Iranian deities, completely unaffected by Islam that had washed away the Indo-Aryan culture all around them. Timur decided to strike them in the upper reaches of the Panjshir valley. But he was prevented from entering the valley by the Kalasha Raja, who was blocking the advance of Timur through a guerrilla attack from Siah Posh. He sent a second force of 10,000 cavalry to take Siah Posh, but the Kalasha Raja demolished it through a surprise sally. Furious over this Timur decided to directly attack the Panjshir valley despite the heavy snow. He set up a system of pulleys and lowered his troops into the valley via large baskets braving severe cold and snow storms. Having entered the valley his spread mayhem amidst the Kafirs. However, they fled to the mountains and continued to fight. Timur dejected over the hold up, built fortifications to fend off the Kafirs and marched on, exiting the valley at Khawak. Before leaving he carved an inscription on the mountain defiles of Kator marking his invasion of the Kafir land.

Proceeding south, Timur with a force of 93,000 horsemen, crossed the Sindhu on Sept.24th 1398 and made a broad sweep towards the rich town of Talamba, north of Multan. Having sacked and obliterated the city, he merged with his grandsons’ tuemens at Multan. Then the combined Timurid army marched rapidly towards the west bank of Shutudri (Sutlej) river. Here Timur took on Raja Jasrat and having killed him in a quick heavy cavalry charge, destroyed the Khokhar army. The survivors were forcibly converted to Islam at the threat of immediate execution. Having crossed the river he secured the Multan-Delhi road and started his march on Delhi. The fort of Bhatnair stood on this road and offered formidable defense against the invader. Timur promptly besieged the fort after sweeping through the countryside and forced Rai Dalachandra into the defensive. On 10th November 1398, he suddenly assaulted fort with giant fort-breaking ballistas that hurled huge rocks over a ton on the fort walls. Prince Shah Rukh, Mazid al Baghdadi and Jahan Maliq, Timur’s fierce generals, led the assault on the Hindus. The Hindus retaliated with an heavy rain fireworks from their ramparts, but the Timurids pushed on building mines to break the ramparts. Finally, the fort ramparts were demolished and the Timurid army rushed into the fort capturing Dalachandra and killing other defenders after much desperate fighting at close quarters.

Timur then sacked the town of Sirsuti (on the old Sarasvati) and destroyed it completely slaying numerous Hindus. Then he quickly took the towns of Aspandi, Kaithal, Samana and completely depopulated them. He states that while destroying these places he noticed several fire-worshipers, similar to the Parsis of Iran and exterminated them in the true spirit of a ghazi (most probably he meant Brahmins). On 5th December he sacked Panipat and took the wheat granaries there as the Hindus fled in terror on hearing of his approach. On December 10th he proceed to attack the Loni that stood the north-east of Delhi, the Hindu defenders shaken by the loss of their chief failed to put an effective fight and were trashed by the Timurid army. Timur seized about 100,000 Hindus after the battle by encircling them in a crescent-like movement, even as held their mass Mongols hunting expeditions on the steppe. He ordered his men to slaughter each one of them right away. He proudly describes how a Mullah who had not even killed a sparrow in the past now slew several Hindus with great enthusiasm. On December 17th he reached the banks of the Yamuna, between Delhi and Panipat and engaged the Tughlaq army commanded by Mallu Iqbal and Sultan Mahmud Shah Tughlaq. Timur’s troops first fired bolts shaped like spiked tetrahedra on the field in front of them and retreated behind this zone of spikes. The Tughlaq army seeing the Timurids seeming to retreat, led a direct elephant charge. But, this was immediately nullified as the elephants’s feet were spiked by the tetrahedra. The Delhi cavalry was pressed into a charge on a short notice and was engaged by the right wing of Timur’s army comprising of cavalry archers. As the Delhi cavalry was being mowed down by the Central Asian archers, the left wing of Timur’s army, comprising of the heavily armored cavalry, encircled the right wing of the Tughlaq army, and cut it down. The Tughlaq army faced complete encirclement: Mallu Iqbal was killed and he was speared like a kebob and displayed to force the survivors to surrender. Mahmud Tughlaq escaped just before the encirclement and fled to Gujarat, even as his army lay “with heads and hands mixed with the trunks of the pachyderm”.

Timur triumphantly marched into Delhi and the Ulema begged him to spare the lives of the Moslems. He asked them to proclaim him the exalted sultan of Hindustan. The Hindus seeing that they faced a brutal death revolted enmasse and were slaughtered with much fury in the fierce fighting that broke out through the streets of Delhi. Four pyramids of the heads of slaughtered Hindus were set up in the four corner of Delhi and only the qualified craftsmen were bound and sent off in slave trains to Samarqand. Any Moslems who failed to give Timur’s troops their supplies were also forthwith roasted like Kebobs. Timur spent 15 days in Delhi solemnly occupying the throne of Delhi declaring himself emperor of India. He summoned 120 elephants and made them bow their heads and kneel before him in obeisance and trumpet in unison. He felt that it marked the submission of Hindustan itself at the feet of the world conqueror. He then sent off the elephants in long strings to the Herat, Tabriz, Shiraz and Samarqand. The treasury was taken by Timur and in one stroke the wealth that the Moslem rulers had robbed from Indians over two centuries, comprising of incalculable amounts of gold, silver and gems. He then performed his Islamic prayers in the old Jami Masjid, placed a cleric from Bokhara as its Imam and had him read the Friday Namaz in his name. Finally on January 1, 1399 when the stench of the corpses made his stay impossible, he ordered his troops to burn down Delhi, except for the Moslem quarters, and proceeded to attack Meerut. In Meerut he demolished all the Hindu temples and captured the Hindu inhabitants. The Hindus were then skinned alive or their throats were slit. Timur triumphantly declared that he had observed his vow of waging Jihad and then burnt the city down. He then obtained intelligence regarding the flourishing Indian shrines in Haradwara and decided to destroy them and defile the Ganga with blood of cows and “wearers of the thread”. To this end he fell upon a large group of pilgrims, north of Meerut, who were advancing for the Mela on Ganga and slaughtered several thousands of them. As he advanced towards the banks of the Ganga, when Hindus of all denominations, from throughout the region, both men and women, decided to stop him at all costs. 200000 Indians assembled with whatever weapons they could gather and decided to block the path to the Ganga and the temples of Haradwara. At Bhokar Heri near Ganga the Hindu force took on the Timurid army in a frontal assault. Though Timur was vastly outnumbered, his cavalry was much larger, as only a small subset of the 200000 Hindus, namely the Rajput and Brahmin fighters had horses. The battle raged on fiercely for 3 days with Timur’s general Suleyman Shah leading the charge; despite heavy losses the Hindus, in resolute defense of their holy sites kept their flag aloft, with most of the Rajputs falling in battle. Timur seeing no major gains from this encounter, and also fearing attacks on his heavy booty, decided to withdraw without reaching the Ganga (Though he claims that he crossed it). He captured numerous cows and buffaloes that he used as food in his advance.

He returned taking a northerly route along the Siwaliks and attacked the fortress of Trisarta (modern Kangra) that was under the control of the Raja Ratana Sena and Raja Brihata. The Hindu defenders were beaten in an involved charge led by his heavily armored cavalry. Brihata was slain first and the Hindu women in camp fell into the hand of the Timurid army, much to his delight. He next killed Ratana Sena after a fierce battle that was led by Pir Mohamed and Suleyman Shah and captured 50,000 Hindus as slaves to be sent off to Samarqand and Bukhara. Then he engaged the Hindu Raja of Jammu, Maaladeva again near Jammu and crushed his forces in the encounter. He captured Maaladeva while he was fleeing near the upper Chenab and had the great joy of making him eat beef and forsake Hinduism for Islam. Sikander, the Sultan of Kashmir, humbly submitted to Timur and accepted his suzerainty. He then appointed Khizr Khan Sayyid as viceroy in Delhi and a local Moslem warlord as the governor of Multan. Rich in booty and slaves he triumphantly returned to Samarqand.


Nehru's view on Timur-i-Lang

"Late in the fourteenth century, Timur, the Turk or Turco-Mongol, came down from the north in India; he came to Delhi and went back. But all along his route he created a wilderness adorned with pyramids of skulls of those he had slain; and Delhi itself became a city of the dead. Fortunately he did not go far and only some parts of the Punjab and Delhi had to suffer this terrible affliction." wrote Nehru in his "Discovery Of India".[/tscii:2fc0418f06]

All I can do is pray that this shd not happen again in my country....But present political scenario, premonits that similar acts may soon happen in this Bharatham again.....

[kannannn]

All I can do is pray that this shd not happen again in my country....But present political scenario, premonits that similar acts may soon happen in this Bharatham again.....
What aspects of the current political system lead you to think that similar acts may happen again?

[rocketboy]

Finally all this reinforces my notion: why religion at all? It seems to spread more hatred than love.

Very True kannan sir.

[manyvan2000]

Finally all this reinforces my notion: why religion at all? It seems to spread more hatred than love.

Very True kannan sir.

evading a problem is not a solution. :wink:

[kannannn]

Yes manyvan, evading the problem is not the solution, provided the problem has another solution. As far as religious hostility is concerned, there can be no solution at all, since all religions want to prove that they are superior :(. And I can't think of any other single reason that has caused more deaths in human history than religion. Can you? When people fight and kill over something that's supposed to make them happy and united, you know something is seriously wrong.

[manyvan2000]

Yes manyvan, evading the problem is not the solution, provided the problem has another solution. As far as religious hostility is concerned, there can be no solution at all, since all religions want to prove that they are superior :(. And I can't think of any other single reason that has caused more deaths in human history than religion. Can you? When people fight and kill over something that's supposed to make them happy and united, you know something is seriously wrong.

Are you sure? think again. More deaths were caused due to individual pride, desire and wrath, not because of religion. religion is a guide. Not all are capable of thinking independently. We are still in the process of evolution and most of us need religion at least not to cause damage to others. Why do you think we still need laws if all of us are good enough to think on our own? The day when we dont need laws is the day we dont need religions.

Religion is the law of life. It is a guide. If it is causing problems, it is because people do not understand it properly. It is the duty of those who "really" understand religion to educate others.

[Lambretta]

Yes manyvan, evading the problem is not the solution, provided the problem has another solution. As far as religious hostility is concerned, there can be no solution at all, since all religions want to prove that they are superior :(. And I can't think of any other single reason that has caused more deaths in human history than religion. Can you? When people fight and kill over something that's supposed to make them happy and united, you know something is seriously wrong.
Yes, sumone had once posed a simialr qsn. in the RK mission I go to....the monk who'd read out the qsn. explained tat the reason ppl. fight over religion is bcos ppl. of every religion believe tat religion is in the rituals, customs, dogmas & other superficial elements tat r done as a matter of routine. They forget the fact tat the core pupose of ne & every religion is to help us reach God by developing the self.
Its only wen ppl. realise the core idea behnind every religion tat this fighting over religion wud stop, as they'd realise tat the goal is common.

[Hulkster]

Lamby although i have a feeling my post will be deleted...i sincerely feel God created us as men and women and never created religions for us. All he told us was to be good and do good to others. However maybe due to him coming various forms to guide men, they must have misunderstood his forms and created a religion for his preachings. I believe it was relatively still plain till humans added rituals and religious morals again due to God appearing to guide humans when they were in trouble as a sort of gratitude to God. (e.g Krishnan destroyed Narakkasura to bring back light over the world...to commemorate this day they celebrated deepavali).

[Raghu]

Religion is the law of life. It is a guide. If it is causing problems, it is because people do not understand it properly. It is the duty of those who "really" understand religion to educate others


exactly :clap:

[crazy]

Lamby although i have a feeling my post will be deleted...i sincerely feel God created us as men and women and never created religions for us. All he told us was to be good and do good to others.

hulk there r other religions who CLAIMS to be chosen by ppl and even asked/commanded( :?: ) to pass my HIS MESSAGE he wanted to tell to mannkind(in one particular region) and even called those group in certain religious name!

[dsath]

Religion is just an excuse for war and destruction it causes. Anyone who doesn't see thru this, is just playing into the hands of people who use religion to advance their own needs.

[Hulkster]

Lamby although i have a feeling my post will be deleted...i sincerely feel God created us as men and women and never created religions for us. All he told us was to be good and do good to others.

hulk there r other religions who CLAIMS to be chosen by ppl and even asked/commanded( :?: ) to pass my HIS MESSAGE he wanted to tell to mannkind(in one particular region) and even called those group in certain religious name!

Those aint religions my dear ponnu....more of cults or societies hiding themselves in the name of religions...yes they will say they are messenger of god...sya that if you follow this religion when you die you will go to planet XYZ to be at Gods side forever...:banghead:..i sometimes marvel at how this people can actually persuade others to follow.

[Raghu]

Religion is just an excuse for war and destruction it causes. Anyone who doesn't see thru this, is just playing into the hands of people who use religion to advance their own needs.

Hi

NO, Not at all, it is Mis interpretation and mis understanding and lack of LOGICAL thinking which causes it, non of the Religions preaches hatred towards any other religious sects it is all
MISUNDERTANDING AND MISINTERPRETATION.

any way, lets get back to the Topic!

[crazy]

[quote="HulksterThose aint religions my dear ponnu....more of cults or societies hiding themselves in the name of religions...yes they will say they are messenger of god...sya that if you follow this religion when you die you will go to planet XYZ to be at Gods side forever...:banghead:..i sometimes marvel at how this people can actually persuade others to follow.[/quote]

ayya raasa, neenga abrahamic religions pathi padichade illaya? only b'coz of what God(not to offend, their GOD is my GOD too)said( :?: ), there is going on a war! and u r telling me that they r sects?

[Hulkster]

Vendam raasathi vendam....neenga mathathai follow pennuraenge...naan verum kaduvulai follow pennugiraen....i renounced myself from religions after reading what is posted in the Quran which im sure god never said it but rather humans wrote it down themselves(e.g. take any woman of the enemy as a slave when you have conquered the enemy)....certain things in bible are said by God..but some of them are self scripted...i will not elaborate any further.

[crazy]

Vendam raasathi vendam....neenga mathathai follow pennuraenge...naan verum kaduvulai follow pennugiraen....i .

excuse me i believe in GOD too! since u were talking about GOD said that and GOD doesnt said this, is was quoting abrahamic religions! i dont care what GOD said and what GOD didnt say!

I have an opinion about God and abt religion, thats it , i follow it!

ANYWAY lets stick to the topic!

i just came to know that "hindukush" means "hindu killer", is that true? did anyone know that before?

[Raghu]

guys and girls pls lests stick with the topic!

[dsath]

Hi

NO, Not at all, it is Mis interpretation and mis understanding and lack of LOGICAL thinking which causes it, non of the Religions preaches hatred towards any other religious sects it is all
MISUNDERTANDING AND MISINTERPRETATION.

any way, lets get back to the Topic!
Thats excatly what i was trying to say. No religion preaches hatred. Its we people who use it as a weapon to further our own miscalculated opinions.
Talking about the topic, Genocide has always taken place, religious or not. Did Stalin not kill millions to stay in power. Thankfully he did not advocate any religion. Had he done that, the religion he advocated would have been the object of hatred.
These wars will exists until humans thirst for power dies.
Why do we call a person who killed millions, ravaged cities and destroyed civilizations for his personal glory 'Great' ( Alexander the Great). Its basic Human nature to glorify these incidents. A Macedonian may be proud of Alexander while a Egyptian might regard him as a devil's incarnation.Its just which side of the coin we see, that forms our opinion.
Who can deny that Hindu kings have never attacked other regions and caused destruction. We call them great warriors and praise them.
Its humans that cause destruction not religion.
Hatred against that individual may be justified, but how can we justify hatred against that religion.

[srivatsan]

Hi

NO, Not at all, it is Mis interpretation and mis understanding and lack of LOGICAL thinking which causes it, non of the Religions preaches hatred towards any other religious sects it is all
MISUNDERTANDING AND MISINTERPRETATION.

any way, lets get back to the Topic!
Thats excatly what i was trying to say. No religion preaches hatred. Its we people who use it as a weapon to further our own miscalculated opinions.
Talking about the topic, Genocide has always taken place, religious or not. Did Stalin not kill millions to stay in power. Thankfully he did not advocate any religion. Had he done that, the religion he advocated would have been the object of hatred.
These wars will exists until humans thirst for power dies.
Why do we call a person who killed millions, ravaged cities and destroyed civilizations for his personal glory 'Great' ( Alexander the Great). Its basic Human nature to glorify these incidents. A Macedonian may be proud of Alexander while a Egyptian might regard him as a devil's incarnation.Its just which side of the coin we see, that forms our opinion.
Who can deny that Hindu kings have never attacked other regions and caused destruction. We call them great warriors and praise them.
Its humans that cause destruction not religion.
Hatred against that individual may be justified, but how can we justify hatred against that religion.

There are few HARD truths, which we cant publicly quote...so we need not talk about other religions.....just the way Hindus were cleansed from different parts of world in the past....just to acknowledge it....

[Eelavar]

hi crazy,

I'm sorry i didn't know your origin !

[Eelavar]

One of the most shameful fact due to this genocide, it's the understanding of India's greatness which was falsified and forgot..

Our heritage totally neglected.

Now that we have material proofs of India antiquity why not rewrite history ?
In western countries they even don't know that anciant India was democratic as some Greeks. They even don't know that we too have had atomists in very anciant time like the Greek.

This brainwashing is surely political but we Indians have to change this Earth's face !

[bis_mala]

[tscii:5aa4c68613]
According to Western Historians, Indians did not have any sense of history (as a subject) until the Westerners introduced it to them. Unlike Chinese, the Indians do not have any recorded history. All that they possess is some religious literature, much of which is just mythology. Some Indian scholars in the West seemed to have argued that such a view should be reconsidered – notably one Prof (Dr) Sharma. ( I do not have full references now). A lot of controversies are being raised everyday by ideologists about new findings. Consequently any Westerner or non-Indian would still reject if you start rewriting anything about ancient India.

Re: history of Indian independence, it appears even the Congress Party was started by the whites. Indians learnt to fight for independence from them!! So what to rewrite?
[/tscii:5aa4c68613]

[srivatsan]

[tscii:a9ff189bf5]
According to Western Historians, Indians did not have any sense of history (as a subject) until the Westerners introduced it to them. Unlike Chinese, the Indians do not have any recorded history. All that they possess is some religious literature, much of which is just mythology. Some Indian scholars in the West seemed to have argued that such a view should be reconsidered – notably one Prof (Dr) Sharma. ( I do not have full references now). A lot of controversies are being raised everyday by ideologists about new findings. Consequently any Westerner or non-Indian would still reject if you start rewriting anything about ancient India.

Re: history of Indian independence, it appears even the Congress Party was started by the whites. Indians learnt to fight for independence from them!! So what to rewrite?
[/tscii:a9ff189bf5]

What you call religious literature is the real history..... though it talk about the events that happened 5000 years before.

In this mean time, we were not in a position to write any history...as we were busy in saving our kith and kin....see the title of this thread...

[Surya]

[tscii:d9b8138898]
A[/tscii:d9b8138898]ccording to Western Historians, Indians did not have any sense of history (as a subject) until the Westerners introduced it to them. Unlike Chinese, the Indians do not have any recorded history. All that they possess is some religious literature, much of which is just mythology. Some Indian scholars in the West seemed to have argued that such a view should be reconsidered – notably one Prof (Dr) Sharma. ( I do not have full references now). A lot of controversies are being raised everyday by ideologists about new findings. Consequently any Westerner or non-Indian would still reject if you start rewriting anything about ancient India.


Yeah...ur post is quite clear...

According to WESTERNERS, indians didn't have a sense of hist, until the WESTERNERS intruduced it. And this is all according to WESTERNERS btw! :lol2:

..even now any WESTERNER would reject it if indians start rewriting anything about ancient India. :roll:

Hmm......8-)

PS: Just out of Curiosity..r u indian? :)

[crazy]

[tscii:5de08f2dc9]
According to Western Historians, Indians did not have any sense of history (as a subject) until the Westerners introduced it to them.
[/tscii:5de08f2dc9]

yes thats quite true!
they have the feeling like they r the one who taught us to write and taught us history................ur own history!

EELAVAR: its allright!

[mahadevan]

Eelavar wrote:In western countries they even don't know that anciant India was democratic as some Greeks. They even don't know that we too have had atomists in very anciant time like the Greek.

any proofs for your statements ?
I agree that we need to update our history based on recent findings, but that should not be based on the perceptions of some politicians. This is an exercise to be done by academicians without religious affiliations. We need more research to be done on the coastal areas like poompuhar where preliminary research has indicated presence of pre historic structures on the ocean floor dating to before 5000 bc.

[Eelavar]

Mahadevan wrote :
any proofs for your statements ?

Yes i live in Switzerland, and at school i'm forced to follow a little brainwashing philosophy course !@@!

One of my teachers teached me that Greeks were the first philosophers, and so were the first to do philosophy because after him and western scholars even the word 'philosophy' come from the Latin !!

He tried to say me that science was developped by Western.. He too said rubbish like because the word 'atom' come from the Greek or the Latin (i don't remember), Greeks were the first to imagine a atomist theory !

What a logical thinking !

mahadevan,

You are right the findings of underwater cities ruins by Graham Hancock should enlight Western.

[srivatsan]

All I can do is pray that this shd not happen again in my country....But present political scenario, premonits that similar acts may soon happen in this Bharatham again.....
What aspects of the current political system lead you to think that similar acts may happen again?


THE GENOCIDE CONTINUES

http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=66944

This is just anotehr and I dont need to quote other such incidences.....any unbiased and sensible brain would recognize facts. Kannannn, if you want to close your eyes....I dont have any objection

[Sandeep]

[tscii:3abfd6d32b]
According to Western Historians, Indians did not have any sense of history (as a subject) until the Westerners introduced it to them. Unlike Chinese, the Indians do not have any recorded history. All that they possess is some religious literature, much of which is just mythology. Some Indian scholars in the West seemed to have argued that such a view should be reconsidered – notably one Prof (Dr) Sharma. ( I do not have full references now). A lot of controversies are being raised everyday by ideologists about new findings. Consequently any Westerner or non-Indian would still reject if you start rewriting anything about ancient India.


What Western historians say is that Indians dont have sence of date before the islamic invations of India mainly because our (Indian) dates dont march with that of Western (Biblical) dates. But if you check works of chinese historians who travelled to India at various times there is clear evidence that pre-islamist Indian kindoms maintained detailed history with dates.


Re: history of Indian independence, it appears even the Congress Party was started by the whites. Indians learnt to fight for independence from them!! So what to rewrite?

Please note the following.

1) First Indian War of Independence 1857-58
2) Congress
Founded in 1885 with the object of obtaining a greater share in government for educated Indians, the Indian National Congress was initially not opposed to British rule. It was found by a Scotsman, Allan Octavian Hume with the approval of Lord Dufferin, the then-Viceroy.

Later under Tikal (Garam dal-Extremists) and Gokhale (Naram dal-Moderates) Indian National Congress started getting involved in Independence. It was Gandhiji who brought congress to the common man and started the Mass movement for Independence.[/tscii:3abfd6d32b]

[Lambretta]

1) First Indian War of Independence 1857-58
Altho western historians still refer to it as a "Sepoy Mutiny"....:oops: :evil: :(

[bingleguy]

Vanakkam Lamby !

[Lambretta]

*digr
Vanakkam BG! :D
Sowkyama? :)

[srivatsan]

*digr
Vanakkam BG! :D
Sowkyama? :)
Lamby....jst out of curiosity.....why are so fond of lambretta.....?

[Eelavar]

Srivatsan,

This Hindu Kush is now in Kashmir !
It's hard to think that but there are still uncivilised killers at modern time ! :cry:

Wake up ladies and gentlemen ! :evil:
We must fight this intolerance. :wink:

[srivatsan]

Srivatsan,

This Hindu Kush is now in Kashmir !
It's hard to think that but there are still uncivilised killers at modern time ! :cry:

Wake up ladies and gentlemen ! :evil:
We must fight this intolerance. :wink:

The political solution that can stop Kashmir becoming another Afganisthan is dismission Article 360 of our stinking constitution giving Special status to Kashmir......

I have the will, but I am not a politicain and I hav no political power.....those who hav the political power dont have the will....God save this Bharthavarsha....

[crazy]

[tscii:4a837baf27]

One of my teachers teached me that Greeks were the first philosophers, and so were the first to do philosophy because after him and western scholars even the word 'philosophy' come from the Latin !!

eelavar i dont remember in which tread i wrote, but thats true, the europeans totally denies our great civilization, if they opens their mouth then it will pouring like rain about greek and latin. i once asked my samfunnslære(society......... cant translate, something like social studies) teacher about how civilized these europeans where before the christianity and greek philosophy? and he was counting the entire europeans as somewhat "greek".
i was once trying to tell him about indian philosophy and he was only listening to me, coz he couldnt do anything better!

when it comes to democracy, he always has this weird idea, that the europeans where those who brought that into our countries! :roll:
the other one, we were having about politics or something, i told him europeans r good at making trouble! they r just trouble makers! he asked me in which way! i was telling him about the libanon, palestine, sri lanka etc. he was saying like " no no we have did a lot more than that" i asked him "like waht for.ins?"
he was replying "we have given u(us) a lot of things like democracy, railways etc etc, developments blah blah blah"
then i said" u may have given those developments, but we could have got those stuffs even without europeans, u have only given us war and civil problems!
he said "but look at this way, we have given u outstanding technical and industrial developments"
i couldnt bear that more and asked him" would u prefer peace or industrial developments?"
hmmmmmmmmmmm i got no replies and were asked to leave the class room and take fresh air!
Europeans.........................bl*****dy sick ppl!
think they r better than us, think they r superior, think they r sent from GOD HIMSELF, think they r GOD himself!

i think/suggest we should stand up for ur culture and history! blo***y europeans rewrite history, make their own history and teaching their d**mn history to others!

i often feel shame on us, we learn their history, we adopt their rewritten history! we r getting trapped under these salamanders!

we should develop, we should search, research, do a lot of archeological surveys!

no wonder if they denies our survival............bl*** he**

WE SHOULD/ MUST FIND AND WRITE THE NEW HISTORY! THE TRUE HISTORY![/tscii:4a837baf27]

[mahadevan]

srivatsan wrote:The political solution that can stop Kashmir becoming another Afganisthan is dismission Article 360 of our stinking constitution giving Special status to Kashmir......

Completely agree with you, If it is an Indian state it shall have the same priv of other Indian states, no state needs special status. By doing that the govt is only feeding the feeling that they are different. It directly affects the feeling of Nationalism/Patriotism.

[srivatsan]

srivatsan wrote:The political solution that can stop Kashmir becoming another Afganisthan is dismission Article 360 of our stinking constitution giving Special status to Kashmir......

Completely agree with you, If it is an Indian state it shall have the same priv of other Indian states, no state needs special status. By doing that the govt is only feeding the feeling that they are different. It directly affects the feeling of Nationalism/Patriotism.
:lol: :D I think for the first time, we agree with each other :lol:

[srivatsan]

we should develop, we should search, research, do a lot of archeological surveys!

WE SHOULD/ MUST FIND AND WRITE THE NEW HISTORY! THE TRUE HISTORY![/tscii]

Ummmmm....there are few difficulties.....

First of all, to do research, we need basic sciences...right? Yes we do have them, and it is in a form which many of us do not understand. Then how to reach them? The answer to this will lead to another great war of words in this Hub. So we will leave this for now.....

Second....Archeological surveys.....I dont think, we will have much.....becuz, we never had the habit of burying things.....we always creamated things..we burned things.....and the even the ashes were not left. They were dissolved in some river or lakes or ponds....

So the first case has its meek chances....to come up.....for that efforts are being taken and there seems to be a small hope too.....Let us wait and watch.....and if possible contribute.....

[Eelavar]

Srivastan,

What we need it's to develop a undersea research science. WE need more robots able to going scooping the fund of the ocean..
Nothing more, if there is still antedeluvian remain, so we have win and can say that Sangam literature is not just a legend or a myth..

Or we must help Graham Hancock to enlight the world about his foundings..

[Eelavar]

dear crazy,

I totally understand your frustration, let me share my sympathy.
I too experimented such idiotic brainwashers.
Let them in their ignorance and their arrogance.

May i ask you where are you living mate ? Because I want to compare western countries, societies.

[srivatsan]

Srivastan,

What we need it's to develop a undersea research science. WE need more robots able to going scooping the fund of the ocean..
Nothing more, if there is still antedeluvian remain, so we have win and can say that Sangam literature is not just a legend or a myth..

Or we must help Graham Hancock to enlight the world about his foundings..

Ummmmmmm....I do not know about Sangam Literature in Tamizh. Though I was born and brought up in Thamizh Nadu, Thamizh grammer of 8th std was even a "Veppankaai" for me....My greatest reach on Thamizh is "Aathi Chuvadi"....hahaha....

I saw few threads here quoting some Kumari Kandam that existed close to present Thamizh Nadu, but I don't understand....I guess this is not the right thread to speak about geography... :lol:

[crazy]

dear crazy,

I totally understand your frustration, let me share my sympathy.
I too experimented such idiotic brainwashers.
Let them in their ignorance and their arrogance.

May i ask you where are you living mate ? Because I want to compare western countries, societies.

dear i live in norway!

[Eelavar]

crazy,

It's unfortunate. Many generations of thinkers will be dumbed...
:cry:

[crazy]

crazy,

It's unfortunate. Many generations of thinkers will be dumbed...
:cry:

:cry: :cry: :cry:

[podalangai]

dear i live in norway! the very brainwashing country!
I taught a few classes about Hinduism in Norway once. I found them to be quite open minded. This was in a small town in western Norway. Maybe Oslo is different.

[crazy]

I taught a few classes about Hinduism in Norway once. I found them to be quite open minded. This was in a small town in western Norway. Maybe Oslo is different.

u did?
hm i dont know. we r not talking about hinduism. i was referring to the way it been taught!
i dont say that they aint open minded, they r, but sometimes some people means thing ironic!

[Surya]

An Attempt to Stop the Hindu Genocide that still goes on today....A Futile Attempt, but still something... :)

BJP to organise Satyagraha against terrorism in Kashmir

Hyderabad, June 07: BJP is organising an eight-day long nation-wide Satyagraha from today to protest the spurt in terrorist violence in Jammu and Kashmir and "expose the UPA government's failure" to check the growing menace.

Under the "Save Doda - Save Nation" campaign, the party activists from across the country would proceed to Jammu in batches, take part in the Satyagraha and court arrest to highlight the "dangers" of the ongoing "ethnic cleansing and targeted killings of innocent Hindus" by Pakistan-sponsored militant outfits, senior BJP leader M Venkaiah Naidu told reporters.

He said the campaign was aimed at educating the people about the grim situation in the border State, especially in Doda region, where Hindus were reportedly being massacred in a systematic and planned manner as part of conspiracy by the ISI.

The batches of party functionaries from various states, led by central BJP leaders, would converge in the Jammu region and take part in the Satyagraha along with the local cadre, Naidu, who is to lead the batch from Rajasthan and Kerala on the opening day of the campaign on June 7, said.

Several central leaders including Murli Manohar Joshi, Vinay Katiyar, Sahib Singh Verma, Sushma Swaraj, V K Malhotra, Shanta Kumar, Thawarchand Gehlot and Anant Kumar would lead the Satyagrahis from various States.

Alleging that there was a conspiracy to flush out Hindus from Doda and other districts in Jammu and Kashmir as reflected by the recent massacre of 35 Hindus, the BJP leader demanded an immediate halt to the "ethnic cleansing", deployment of more military and security forces and strengthening the village defence committees by providing modern weapons and communication equipment.

Bureau Report
www.zeenews.com

[dsath]

Surya, Whats happening in Kashmir started of as a border issue. Its a war by proxy between 2 countries.
Linking that to religious issue is like playing into the hands of people who selfishly want to further their own political needs.
The Kashmir problem is political and should be solved politically.

Pak is trying hard to make this a religious issue. Doing such Satyagrahas will be like taking the bait and making the whole issue religious.

If this becomes a religious problem then there is no hope. Not least of all for the people of Kashmir.Hope the people involved refrain from such gimmicks for making cheap political gains.

[arul_satish]

You guys are trying to change the history...History is full of bloody war and suppression of the loser which everybody has folowed..I mean throughout the world. It's not just the muslims. The fact is before the spread of Chritanity and later Islam, the whole world was pagan. We can call them as Hindus if it does mean the religion.

The hindus suppressed the Jains and Buddhists (if you don't want to believe the AIT) and killed many believers.

The historians who wrote our history knew how cruel those hindu kings were to each other. That's why we are still unable to unite us...still fighting for identity...the lost one.

As late as 17th century, the much celebrated Maratha ruler lived by plundering muslims and hindus alike(also killing) and it's a well known fact that's why they were unable to stabilize. Quickly they lost their power and surrendered to the British.

[dsath]

The historians who wrote our history knew how cruel those hindu kings were to each other. That's why we are still unable to unite us...still fighting for identity...the lost one.



I agree with this totally. There is nothing called Hindu genocide. Its all fiction propagated by a section for its own political advancements. :(
Was there no war in India before the Muslims and Christians came and were people not killed before that?

[Eelavar]

dsath...

Ignorant...
Yes there was wars before Muslim invasion and Christian wish of converting all Indians..
But anciant indians had a MORAL and ETHIC of dooing a war !!

Innocents were blessed... Only the caste of fighters were touched !!

http://www.atributetohinduism.com/War_in_Ancient_India.htm

Read it carefully and beeing enlighted !
It's VERY VERY sad to see your negation of this TRUE GENOCIDE !

[Eelavar]

Arul

Negation is not a good thing, it is ignorance..

[srivatsan]

I agree with this totally. There is nothing called Hindu genocide. Its all fiction propagated by a section for its own political advancements. :(
Was there no war in India before the Muslims and Christians came and were people not killed before that?

Genocide is something which is called "Mass Murder", irrespective of age, sex, health condition. Just killing...

We had war...ofcourse the great MahaBharatha War, in which only the army was invloved in battle that too from Sun Raise to Sun Set...
War happened in many places of world at different era...But were war was always Dharmic war or "aRappor". No innocents were killed. Even the guilty, was spared if they surrender....

There is BIG difference between Genocide and War....If you do not want o recognize it, it is up to you!

[dsath]

[tscii:c48413b43a]
dsath...


But anciant indians had a MORAL and ETHIC of dooing a war !!

Innocents were blessed... Only the caste of fighters were touched !!

http://www.atributetohinduism.com/War_in_Ancient_India.htm

Read it carefully and beeing enlighted !
It's VERY VERY sad to see your negation of this TRUE GENOCIDE !

I liked the pictures in the link, good ones but not the content. Honestly it puts me off in the first 2 lines. I don’t subscribe to the comparison logic at all.
Coming to the point, its a fact that plundering, looting and killing the innocent existed well before any other religious groups made an entry into India.
Ashoka was not the next-in-line for the throne. He killed his brothers to come to the throne and no one could do anything abt it and he ruled till a ripe old age. I would like to stress here that i am not commenting abt Ashoka's greatness or anything, but just the methodology he adopted to reach the throne.
The atrocities that the Hindu kings committed while invading countries like Thailand, Malay are many. You have to look at their regional history to understand that.In fact Tamin means violence in the Thai language. According to historians this a direct result of atrocities committed by the invading Tamil Kings esp Chola kings.
[/tscii:c48413b43a]

[kannannn]

As late as 17th century, the much celebrated Maratha ruler lived by plundering muslims and hindus alike(also killing)
See here: http://www.indhistory.com/maratha-bengal.html

The Maratha raiders were known as 'Bargi', a term used by Bengali's to put their children to sleep ('If you don't sleep Bargis would come and take you away..').
Here is a tranlation of the lullaby from the net:
'Hushed the child sleeps and quiet is the neighbourhood now, for the Bargis (Maratha raiders) have descended on our land; the bulbulis have eaten away our crops, how shall we pay our land tax?'

[Surya]

Dsath,
I beg to differ. I think religion has a huge role to play in the Kashmir Issue. I don't think that this would be such a big issue if India was a country that followed Islamic Laws. I find it hard to believe that this has nothing to do with religion, when it is mainly kashmiri hindus who are being targetted by these terrorists.


I agree with this totally. There is nothing called Hindu genocide. Its all fiction propagated by a section for its own political advancements. :(

Genocide = Mass Murder.

Hindu Genocide = Mass Murder of Hindus. This hasn't existed? India's History started with the invasion of Persians etc is filled with Hindu Genocide.


Historical Facts about the mass Murder of hindus didn't just show up one fine day when some political outfit decided to use it in their agendas.

[rocketboy]

The real genocide thats happening is the genocide of non Hindus in Gujarat and elsewhere sponsored by BJP, RSS and BAJRANG DAL. Its understandable if people were butchered in the past. There was no common court of justice to punish the offenders . But today we do have a Supreme court. We have a President who can to a certain extent exercise control over rogue states .But still we remain a mute spectator to the unabated violence in vadodara and other parts of Gujarat. Not to forget the 1984 anti sikh riots. I don't understand how this person who goes by the name Modi was reelected and how he is still allowed to hold his office . IMHO the greatest threat to India is not from foreign mujahideen but from fanatic religious groups Like RSS.

[Surya]

The real genocide thats happening is the genocide of non Hindus in Gujarat and elsewhere sponsored by BJP, RSS and BAJRANG DAL. Its understandable if people were butchered in the past. There was no common court of justice to punish the offenders . But today we do have a Supreme court. We have a President who can to a certain extent exercise control over rogue states .But still we remain a mute spectator to the unabated violence in vadodara and other parts of Gujarat. Not to forget the 1984 anti sikh riots. I don't understand how this person who goes by the name Modi was reelected and how he is still allowed to hold his office . IMHO the greatest threat to India is not from foreign mujahideen but from fanatic religious groups Like RSS.

Agreed. Gujarat Tiots were Genocide.

But so was the Godhra Train Burning Incident which provoked it in the first place. Strange how it's the RSS that is crucified, when it was Godhra that kicked it off! Funny how people killed in Godhra is conviniently swept under the carpet. Why this sort of Hipocracy....Minority Appeasing....SO CALLED Secularism?! Pathetic!

So I'm guessing that according to you the

* Varnasi Blasts in March
* The 1998 Kovai Blasts which Claimed the lives of many!
*The Attack on a group of Hindu College Students in Kerala on May 2nd 2003
*Godhra Trainburning.
*Bombay Blasts
*Qasim Nagar Attack on July 13th 2003.

Fact sheet Of Atrocities On Kashmiri Pandits

Educational Institutions burnt, damaged forcefully occupied : 105

Religious & Cultural Institutions Destroyed/burnt, damaged : 103

Shops, Factories looted/burnt/occupied : 14,430

Agriculture dependent families deprived of their land and source of income : 20,000

Horticulture dependent families deprived of their resource : 12,500

Houses Burnt : more than 20,000

Houses looted : 95%

Torture killings of Kashmiri Pandits in the Valley : more than 1,100

Along with many other Attacks on hindus in India doesn't matter at all! Who cares about the Hindus?! They're the majourity. Let them die right?!

Nothing is more sickening than this sort of hipocracy, and double standards! :oops: :cry:

[kannannn]

No. of people dead in Godhra: ~120
No. of people dead in the violence that followed: ~2000
What is unpardonable is the state-support for the riots and killings. Is it not the duty of the state to arrest those responsible for the train burning incident and bring them to law, while calming down the situation?! No. OTOH, Mr. Modi, the chief minister, believes in action-reaction. :banghead:

I don't condone the terrorist activities of the muslims either in Kovai or in Bombay. But check out the chronology of these events. How did they start? Was it not the Rath Yatra that started these chain of events? I am against the minority appeasement policies of the government. But that doesn't mean you can start a yatra and trigger flames of hatred, just for a few votes. And these so called Hindu leaders don't even stand in the forefront of these violent incidents. Finally, it is the common Hindu and muslim who has to suffer, while these armchair strategists look for scapegoats.

As for the Kashmir problem, everyone knows who supported the terrorists. Even the killing of Pandits was started by Pakistani militants who wanted to create communal tension in the valley. But, let us not forget that one of the causes of the sprout of seperatist activities in late 1980's was the rigging of elections by the Centre to keep away prominent Kashmiris from mainstream politics. Obviously, anyone would lose faith in such a 'democratic' setup.

Anyway, the bottomline is, why do the saffron parties hold muslims in contempt in general for what is happening elsewhere. Fight for implementation of common civil code and stoppage of minoriy appeasement without killing muslims. Is it so difficult?

[Surya]

No. of people dead in Godhra: ~120
No. of people dead in the violence that followed: ~2000

We're not just looking @ godhra, we're looking at what the hindu population has been getting for centuries.


But, let us not forget that one of the causes of the sprout of seperatist activities in late 1980's was the rigging of elections by the Centre to keep away prominent Kashmiris from mainstream politics.

Which was the part @ center then? I forget.


I don't condone the terrorist activities of the muslims either in Kovai or in Bombay. But check out the chronology of these events. How did they start? Was it not the Rath Yatra that started these chain of events?

Did Hindus start taking beatings from Muslims only AFTER the Rath Yathra?? In this thread about Hindu Genocide, we're talking about the Mass Muder of Hindus starting from the first invasions of Ghazni.

Reg Godhra,

When was the last time HIndus had such a violent uprising before then? HOw many Kashmiris hindus died after their previous uprising? How many other terrorist attacks took place before that?

Reguadless of what my personal ideas are, I'm not supporting the Gujarat Attacks here. But I'm saying, that after a chain of deaths caused by muslims, it was GOdhra that made hindus feel that it was enough. And the anger that had built up all this while resulted in such a violent outburst.

All I'm saying is....why is it only the RSS that crucified here? Why is it only HIndu forces that are taking the beating here? Why are the accusers not accusing Muslims League, or other Islamic Organizations that are IN India for the violence from their side.


This is what I meant by double standards. :)

[alwarpet_andavan]

Reg Godhra,
The "saffron" version of the Godhra carnage failed to pass the test of evidence [Nanavati-Shah commission] and it is very simplistic and naive to equate the Godhra carnage, atrocious as it is, to the SYSTEMATIC genocide of Muslims, abetted by the State, in the aftermath of Godhra

[alwarpet_andavan]

Its also funny to see the sweeping assumption that India was a *Hindu* *Country*. What about indigenous populations with indigenous gods and suchlike?

[Surya]

Reg Godhra,
The "saffron" version of the Godhra carnage failed to pass the test of evidence [Nanavati-Shah commission] and it is very simplistic and naive to equate the Godhra carnage, atrocious as it is, to the SYSTEMATIC genocide of Muslims, abetted by the State, in the aftermath of Godhra

Hmm...hard to believe that it was an "Accident" when that decision was made public right after Mr. Lalloo Prasad Yadav came to power as the railway minister. Especially, when it was passed off as an act of communalism initially and stayed that way for the next 3 years.

[alwarpet_andavan]

Reg Godhra,

When was the last time HIndus had such a violent uprising before then?

1984, to give one example...

[Surya]

Its also funny to see the sweeping assumption that India was a *Hindu* *Country*. What about indigenous populations with indigenous gods and suchlike?

There have been extensive debates on that in this section espicially, and that goes into the whole Ayan Invasion Theory, which is banned from being debated in this section. But the general idea is, that indegenous gods all versions of Hindu Gods.

If you mean gods like Muneeswarar, and Sudalai Maadan, these gods all come into the hindu fold.

But then again, this isn't the thread to discuss that. :)

[Surya]

Reg Godhra,

When was the last time HIndus had such a violent uprising before then?

1984, to give one example...

Exactly, 1984-2001....it took 17 years of tolorence by Hindus and Hindu Forces to have a violent uprising.

How many Hindus died in that period of 17 years as a result of Islamic Fundamentalism? Just the Kashmiries come out to a huge sum.

[alwarpet_andavan]

1) Even if it was not an accident, are the evidences strong enough to prove beyond reasonable doubt that it was a communal attack of Muslims on Hindus?
2) Does the evidence overrule the possibility of a Hindu being the culprit?
3) Even if the answer for question 1 is yes, how does it justify the riots?

[alwarpet_andavan]

There have always been instances of Hindu atrocities [like in a fishing hamlet in Kerala] before and after 1984, which may not have been reported widely in the mainstream media.

The point is, dividing, discriminating, humiliating, and killing poeple belonging to ones own 'religion' is not much different from genocide. To a dead/discriminated/humiliated human, it doesn't make a difference whether it was done by a Muslim or a Hindu

[Surya]

1) Even if it was not an accident, are the evidences strong enough to prove beyond reasonable doubt that it was a communal attack of Muslims on Hindus?

The differences in the Initial Reports right after the Carnage (which claimed that the doors were shut from the outside by metal chains), and the differences in the final reports, (In which the chains magically evaporated.)



2) Does the evidence overrule the possibility of a Hindu being the culprit?

No it doesn't. I see Lalloo (a hindu) as the culprit for changing the reports for the sake of vote banks. But that still doesn't change the fact that this was an attack perpretrated by a group of fundamentalist muslims.


3) Even if the answer for question 1 is yes, how does it justify the riots?

Like I said before, regardless of what I feel, I'm not going to try to justify it here. All I"m saying is why is it that the Hindus are being crucified, when both groups were involved. Why is godhra Malliciously being swept under the carpet? :)

Not just here, even judging by the initial reaction of the Psuedo Secular Press, why was the Godhra Carnage Minimized, and the Gujarat Riots Magnified?

[Surya]

The point is, dividing, discriminating, humiliating, and killing poeple belonging to ones own 'religion' is not much different from genocide. To a dead/discriminated/humiliated human, it doesn't make a difference whether it was done by a Muslim or a Hindu

It doesn't. But the number of events which are classified as GENOCIDE, have been against Hindus perpetrated by muslims in several instances in India's History starting with Mohammed of Ghazini. :)

[alwarpet_andavan]

The differences in the Initial Reports right after the Carnage (which claimed that the doors were shut from the outside by metal chains), and the differences in the final reports, (In which the chains magically evaporated.)

Are you talking about the Govt/Indian Railway inquiry report [which was appalingly slow to perform an inquiry in the first place, because of obvious reasons]? According to Foreign Science Lab, Ahmedabad, the door was locked from inside
What necessarily makes the initial report correct and the final report wrong and not the other way round?

Lallu is no saint but one would trust Lallu more with his/her life than a Modi :)

[Surya]

What necessarily makes the initial report correct and the final report wrong and not the other way round?


It's hard to truely trust the later report, since it was still termed as an act of fundamentalism, and then Laloo comes to power and Kazaam! It is termed as an accident within 6 months of him in power! :roll: :lol2:


What necessarily makes the initial report correct and the final report wrong and not the other way round?

Lallu is no saint but one would trust Lallu more with his/her life than a Modi :)

I beg to differ.

It depends on who that one is...

If it is a minority in the light of the public, Laloo will continue with his minority appeasing decisions, mainly for votebank politics. In this case, Laloo cannot be trusted. :)

[alwarpet_andavan]

It's hard to truely trust the later report, since it was still termed as an act of fundamentalism, and then Laloo comes to power and Kazaam! It is termed as an accident within 6 months of him in power! :roll: :lol2:


Well, Modi & Co had every bit of reason [actually more] reason to manipulate the reports as THE PARTY RESPONSIBLE for the riots as the minority-appeaser Lallu




I beg to differ.

It depends on who that one is...

If it is a minority in the light of the public, Laloo will continue with his minority appeasing decisions, mainly for votebank politics. In this case, Laloo cannot be trusted. :)

Life nu onnu irundha dhaane vote bank, minority, idhellam.... Modi adhaye illama panniduvaare.... :)

[alwarpet_andavan]

Anyway, we've made our points...

[Surya]

Oh my god...:lol2: Enough!

We're getting more into BJP vs Psuedo Secular Parties now than anything else. :P

Godhra is still seen as an act of fundamentalism by the majourity of India eventhough Laloo's minority appeasing govt claimed that it was an accident, mainly because Lallo is Minority Appeasing.

I'll just leave it @ that. :)

[Surya]

Anyway, we've made our points...

Agreed. 8-)

[Eelavar]

Dsath,
It is really sad for me to see your ignorance even after i opened this thread !!

[rocketboy]

[tscii:b401de63f7]Mr Eelavar first stop citing references from pro Hindu sites. I find it really irritating. If possible give links to books authored by historians of international repute . Most of these pro Hindu sites are maintained by Hindutva forces and their main task is to paint a rosy picture about Hinduism and at the same time show other religions. in poor light You know what ,I won't even trust the NCERT books as there were some attempts in the recent past to push forth ‘Hindu’ version of ‘nationalist’ history. [/tscii:b401de63f7]

[Surya]

I thought the task of this thread was to discuss the Obvious Hindu Genocide amoung people who knew about it, and accept it.

I didn't know it was to convince others who claim it never took place. :roll:

In that case Mr. Vanangamudi,
What refrences are you looking for Exactly? :roll:

If you are looking for neutral sources which elaborate on:

The Hindu Ethics Of War...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/ethics/war/hinduism.shtml

That shows that we did infact have these ethics in war.

Maybe you think that BBC is also somehow influenced by HINDUTVA forces...who knows..:lol2:

If you have a hard time believing that BBC is part of a neutral Media, then that isn't our problem. Hope that answers your question, if it doesn't, then please elaborate on your query. :roll:

Regards. 8-)

[Eelavar]

rocketboy,

http://www.francoisgautier.com

It's the official web site of a french journalist living in India for more than 30 years.

He wrote many books about India..
I don't think he is sponsored by any political party.

Suppressing history :

http://www.francoisgautier.com/Written%20Material/suppressing-history.rtf

Arise again, O India :

http://www.francoisgautier.com/Written%20Material/ARISE%20o%20India.rtf

Rewriting indian history :

http://www.francoisgautier.com/Written%20Material/Rewriting%20Indian%20History.doc

Rocketboy please next time read the thread fully !

Read these books full of quotations and facts.

It's the web site of an Indologist

http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/

His book about Hindu's genocide negation :
http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/books/negaind/index.htm

Good readings and be enlighted rocketboy, you will not be irritated but frustrated by your limited knowledge...

[Surya]

Eelavar,
:thumbsup: Good refrences! 8-)

[Eelavar]

Thanks Surya :thumbsup:

These webs are not politicaly motivated but are destined to show some true facts.

[rocketboy]

For the time being I chose to question the credibility of this French journalist. Read this particular article he penned for rediff.com recently .
http://in.rediff.com/news/2006/may/23franc.htm.

This will easily go down as the funniest article I have ever read. :lol:

Any sane person will agree with me if I say the analogy is in bad taste. Its speaks volumes of his intelligence(or rather the lack of it) ,his understanding of the Indian subcontinent and its people.

As for the second author I am yet to go through his works.

[alwarpet_andavan]

For the time being I chose to question the credibility of this French journalist. Read this particular article he penned for rediff.com recently .
http://in.rediff.com/news/2006/may/23franc.htm.

This will easily go down as the funniest article I have ever read. :lol:

Any sane person will agree with me if I say the analogy is in bad taste. Its speaks volumes of his intelligence(or rather the lack of it) ,his understanding of the Indian subcontinent and its people.

As for the second author I am yet to go through his works.

rocketboy,
That sure was hilarious! :rotfl:

[crazy]

that was hilarious indeed, but how true is that? :roll:

[crazy]

eelavar ur links were really intresting ............thank u :)

[bis_mala]

For the time being I chose to question the credibility of this French journalist. Read this particular article he penned for rediff.com recently .
http://in.rediff.com/news/2006/may/23franc.htm.

.................................................. . ,his understanding of the Indian subcontinent and its people.

As for the second author I am yet to go through his works.

The article is incredible. I wonder what prompted the writer to write in this manner.

[Surya]

What Exactly did you find in the Article that was Hilarious? I agree that the claim of brahmins being india's modern day dalits, is a bit farfetched, but the author does a fine job argueing his point.


There are 50 Sulabh Shauchalayas (public toilets) in Delhi; all of them are cleaned and looked after by Brahmins (this very welcome public institution was started by a Brahmin). A far cry from the elitist image that Brahmins have!

There are five to six Brahmins manning each Shauchalaya. They came to Delhi eight to ten years back looking for a source of income, as they were a minority in most of their villages, where Dalits are in majority (60 per cent to 65 per cent). In most villages in UP and Bihar, Dalits have a union which helps them secure jobs in villages.

True, I remember reading it in other tamil mags...


The passage about Brahmins being Porters, Rickshaw Drivers etc

The Idea being that Bramins have started to occupy the C class jobs, since their right to an education is being narrowed by the Caste Based Reservation System....


400,000 Brahmins of the Kashmir valley, the once respected Kashmiri Pandits, now live as refugees in their own country, sometimes in refugee camps in Jammu and Delhi in appalling conditions. But who gives a damn about them? Their vote bank is negligible.

The man has a point unfortunatly in this case...:(


There are hundreds of families that are surviving on just Rs 500 per month as priests in various temples (Department of Endowments statistics).

True, the hundreds of Priest Families do get paid barly enough to put food on their plates.


The tragedy of modern India is that the combined votes of Dalits/OBC and Muslims are enough for any government to be elected. The Congress quickly cashed in on it after Independence, but probably no other government than Sonia Gandhi's has gone so far in shamelessly dividing Indian society for garnering votes.

True...


The Indian government gives Rs 1,000 crores (Rs 10 billion) for salaries of imams in mosques and Rs 200 crores (Rs 2 billion) as Haj subsidies. But no such help is available to Brahmins and upper castes. As a result, not only the Brahmins, but also some of the other upper castes in the lower middle class are suffering in silence today

Can this be denied? :huh:


Anti-Brahminism originated in, and still prospers in anti-Hindu circles. It is particularly welcome among Marxists, missionaries, Muslims, separatists and Christian-backed Dalit movements of different hues. When they attack Brahmins, their target is unmistakably Hinduism.

Again, 100% True..Check out sites/organizations like Dalitstan.org.


The Point of the Article:

Back in the day: Dalits were discriminated based on caste. They were forced to take up the worst jobs.

Today: Upper Caste (The author tends to use Brahmins) are discriminated by the quota system based on Caste. Poverty forces a large percentage of them to take up the jobs which are discribed in the article.

Hilarious? :? It's quite depressing to see the Caste System still very Active in Indian Society and Govt through the Quota System, and you claim that it's hilarious....:roll:

Even if his arguement is flawed, which I don't quite agree, it has nothing to do with the credibility of his previous works. Look through them. They still hold water.

For anymore discussions on the Quota System, go to the India Today thread in the Misc Section.....

Now...back to discussing the Hindu Genocide....

[Surya]

Back to the Hindu Genocide:

The RELENTLESS ATTEMPT BY RABID RADICALS Continue....

One killed, 18 injured in grenade attack in Jammu.

Jammu, June 12 (TODAY) (PTI): One person was killed and 18 injured in two to three grenade attacks by militants on a bus stand in the city this morning, officials said.

Militants hurled two to three grenades at different places simultaneously in the General Bus Stand area here, which exploded killing one person on the spot and injuring 18 others, they said.

Security forces have rushed to the spot and cordoned off the entire bus stand area.

Rescue operation is going on and the injured have been shifted to the hospital, they said.

The explosions have taken place at a time when pilgrims from all parts of the country are pouring here for Amarnath yatra.


-Deccan Chronical.
http://www.samachar.com/showurl.htm?rurl=http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/Jun122006/update631122006612.asp?headline=One~killed,~26~hur t~in~grenade~blast~in~Jammu

[kannannn]

Surya, something you have missed (inadvertently, I hope) in the news report:

The deceased could not be indentified as reports last came in.
News reports over the years have made it quite clear that whenever there is an influx (during spring and summer) of militants from Pakistan, there is an increase in terrorist activities. By segregating the dead into Hindus and Muslims, we are playing into the hands of the strategists on the other side of the border. This is exactly what they want. Muslims are as much a target of terrorism in Kashmir as Hindus. Why don't you post something about the self-defence groups in Kashmir villages that fight relentlessly against the militants (sometimes at the cost of the lives of their families).

[srivatsan]

News reports over the years have made it quite clear that whenever there is an influx (during spring and summer) of militants from Pakistan, there is an increase in terrorist activities. By segregating the dead into Hindus and Muslims, we are playing into the hands of the strategists on the other side of the border. This is exactly what they want. Muslims are as much a target of terrorism in Kashmir as Hindus. Why don't you post something about the self-defence groups in Kashmir villages that fight relentlessly against the militants (sometimes at the cost of the lives of their families).

Yeah Kannannn: I think you are correct

Unfortunately, the stupid Hindus, find their Amarnatha yathra only in the time, when millitants infuse inside in summer. They can change it to winter so some of them may die in due to winter, so that there is not reason for a Hindu-Muslim riots....

Similarly, see what happened in last mont? I dont know why 35 Hindus were alive when Terrorsits came to kill them. If they had committed suicide before the terrorrsits came in, terrorists wouldn't have found anyone to kill, and it wouldn't have been a "killing of Hindus" and our perfect media wouldn't have wasted a coloumn, in which they could published some useful ads...

Umm...we shd not forget the stupidity of Hindus who went for shopping on 29th October 2005 exactly at 17:40 IST. If they had avoided shpping on that day or if they had avoided celebrating Deepawali, this problems wouldn't have come.....

I dont know how long these stupid Hindus are going to be a reason for destabilizing the secular nature of the country....

Hindus' attrocities of disturbing the secular nature of the country, by dying in the hands of terrorists is strongly condemned and they should stop this immediately!

[kannannn]

A long post wasted on sarcasm :( . What is your point srivatsan? My point is, both muslims and hindus have been targets of terrorism. Perhaps chopping off ears, or killing entire villages for voting in elections don't seem to fall into your category of violence because the victims are muslims?! Maybe the killing of innocent Kashmiri teenagers (and hurried burial) by security forces to increase encounter figures is not excessive, since the victims are muslims?! I condemn any pointed attacks on hindus in Kashmir, but acknowledge that these are results of outside forces trying to ruin communal harmony. How do you fight this? Whom do you blame for this?

Out of curiosity, what is your take on the anti-sikh riots of '84?

[Eelavar]

Surya excellent post.
Good job mate.

[srivatsan]

-deleted-

[srivatsan]

Out of curiosity, what is your take on the anti-sikh riots of '84?

It was meant for sarcasm kannannn. The general tensency of people today is to mix everything in to one perspective and show it as something directed by neighbours on us.....I remember, some "Kashmir Expert" saying that, Kashmir problem is not at all religous.

My message was, "Dont try to neutralize the issues in the name of Secularism". The thread is "Genocide of Hindus" and it is truth. Just by saying, everybody is dying, dont try to show that Hindus are not victims...(This "YOU" is not addressed to Mr. Kannannn".It is addresed to general public) Hindus are victims...for a pretty long time...

Anti-Sikh Riots are equally attrocious. I dont try to precipitate the issue. I consider that discussing that issue in anotehr thread is itself precipitating. (I am not supporting Kalisthan or something...)

[Surya]

Surya, something you have missed (inadvertently, I hope) in the news report:

The deceased could not be indentified as reports last came in.
News reports over the years have made it quite clear that whenever there is an influx (during spring and summer) of militants from Pakistan, there is an increase in terrorist activities. By segregating the dead into Hindus and Muslims, we are playing into the hands of the strategists on the other side of the border. This is exactly what they want. Muslims are as much a target of terrorism in Kashmir as Hindus. Why don't you post something about the self-defence groups in Kashmir villages that fight relentlessly against the militants (sometimes at the cost of the lives of their families).

Again, Regardless of what my personal ideas are on this, I'm not going to argue that Indian Muslims support these Jehadies, so there in no question of Communal Hatred here. I'm saying that Hindus are the primary target for these attacks than Muslims.

Varnasi Blasts in March 2006 - What are the oods of Muslims Dying?

Last Month, it was 35 hindus that died.

Now, the grenade attack has taken place right at the time of Amarnath Yathra. When Hindus from the whole nation flow into that area.

And you claim Muslims are just as good targets for terrorists as Hindus???

Killing entire villages for voting is Genocide, not denying that, the lives lost in those attacks are both hindus and muslims, but we don't read about bombs planted by Jehadies exploding in a dense muslim populated area, during Ramadan, or any other day, in the papers every other day do we?


Eezhavar,
Thanks mate! :D

[kannannn]

srivatsan, surya, this discussion isn't going anywhere. I just have a few questions. Which organisations do you blame for the 'genocide' (atleast for a majority of the incidents)? Who do you think are the members of these organizations? What do you think should be done to avoid such genocide? Maybe answers to these questions will lead to a more constructive debate.

[Surya]

What do you think should be done to avoid such genocide?

Stopping the moronic Bus Service between India and Pak would be an excellent start!

I'm not going to answer the other questions, because my views are a bit blunt for this forum.

[alwarpet_andavan]

A long post wasted on sarcasm :( . What is your point srivatsan? My point is, both muslims and hindus have been targets of terrorism. Perhaps chopping off ears, or killing entire villages for voting in elections don't seem to fall into your category of violence because the victims are muslims?! Maybe the killing of innocent Kashmiri teenagers (and hurried burial) by security forces to increase encounter figures is not excessive, since the victims are muslims?! I condemn any pointed attacks on hindus in Kashmir, but acknowledge that these are results of outside forces trying to ruin communal harmony. How do you fight this? Whom do you blame for this?

Out of curiosity, what is your take on the anti-sikh riots of '84?

Well said!!!!!

[dsath]

Hmm i don't think arguing a case against Hindu genocide with Surya and Eelavar is easy. 8-)
The main reason is that they are in their late teens or early twenties (i think). I can still vividly remember how headstrong i was with my ideas of feminism, communism and atheism when i was that age and have serious arguments with anyone willing to discuss these issues. :)
But with age and exposure it become clearer to understand the difference between propaganda and real truth. Thats the only hope.
:)

[kannannn]

I sincerely hope you are right dsath. We all had our rites of passage. But we also see an increasing number of Togadias and Bin Ladens in our world, who have probably never had the chance to reason their convictions with someone.

[srivatsan]

srivatsan, surya, this discussion isn't going anywhere. I just have a few questions. Which organisations do you blame for the 'genocide' (atleast for a majority of the incidents)? Who do you think are the members of these organizations? What do you think should be done to avoid such genocide? Maybe answers to these questions will lead to a more constructive debate.

I understand....that chumma shouting here is not going to help. I was very sircastic, just to make sure that "the issue is not precipitated". If you are going to ask me which organization or people is responsible, then my blunt answers may not be taken by this forum and many may not accept it and so be it. It is my opinion....and I am convinced.

But if you ask me how to aviod this, I have few political solutions, which is very much possible indeed....

1. Scrap Article 370 from the constitution, there by assuring the Kashmiris and and rest of the Bharatheeyans that Kashmir is an integral part of Bharath.

2. Severe, read it SEVERE, punishment be given to those who indluge is terrorism and abet terrorism. Nothing short of death penalty for indluging in terrorism and minimum 25 years of R.I. or Death Penalty be given to those who abet terrorism in any form. The accused may chose between 25 years of R.I or instant death and no compromice with any form of terrorism.....and many such....

3. Last but not least, shedding the dirty policy of Minority appeasement.

I think, these above said things are not far from practicabilty.

[Surya]

Wha? But what is wrong in what I said earlier? :huh:


Again, Regardless of what my personal ideas are on this, I'm not going to argue that Indian Muslims support these Jehadies, so there in no question of Communal Hatred here. I'm saying that Hindus are the primary target for these attacks than Muslims.

Varnasi Blasts in March 2006 - What are the oods of Muslims Dying?

Last Month, it was 35 hindus that died.

Now, the grenade attack has taken place right at the time of Amarnath Yathra. When Hindus from the whole nation flow into that area.

And you claim Muslims are just as good targets for terrorists as Hindus???

Killing entire villages for voting is Genocide, not denying that, the lives lost in those attacks are both hindus and muslims, but we don't read about bombs planted by Jehadies exploding in a dense muslim populated area, during Ramadan, or any other day, in the papers every other day do we?


Seeing the recent attacks by these jehadies, isn't it clear that hindus are more of a target than muslims??

If not, why aren't there bomb blasts during Ramadan, but bombs explode in Delhi during Dewali? :huh:

Is it smart to open a bus route when there are terrorist attack to this magnitude this often? :huh:

Would the US have a bus route with Mexico or Canada, if Mexican and Canadian Terrorists were terrorizing america and killing it's civilians every other day?!

What makes us indians so dumb? (politicians) Or do they even care?

[srivatsan]

--deleted--

[srivatsan]

Maybe the killing of innocent Kashmiri teenagers (and hurried burial) by security forces to increase encounter figures is not excessive, since the victims are muslims?![/b]....


Well said!!!!!

So, alwarpet andavan, do you mean to say, if they security personals, don't find a terrorits, then they catch a local kashmiri, who incidentally happen to be a muslim, kill him and show him as terrrorits...."Think man''.....

[srivatsan]

Wha? But what is wrong in what I said earlier? :huh:

What makes us indians so dumb? (politicians) Or do they even care?

Becuz, we were given a overdoze of Secularism. :wink:

[Surya]

Psuedo Secularism/Minority Appeasment to be Exact! :wink:

[Eelavar]

dsath,

I'm dooing propaganda ?
Ok keep it for you please my lady.

It is not because you are an atheist that you must take the theists for idiots ! :roll:

For atheists, muslims, and chrisitians it could be seen as a propaganda, but for great historian and indologists it is a true fact...

Who to trust ?
I prefer to hear history seen by a well educated historian than a muslim saying it is a propaganda...

This muslim would not trust it even if it is true...


have serious arguments with anyone willing to discuss these issues.

Don't say me that with the age you forgot those 'serious' and strong arguments..

If you have 'serious' arguments please contact me :wink:

Dsath do you know where is situated the Hindu kush, and what this name does mean.. ??

[crazy]

What makes us indians so dumb? (politicians) Or do they even care?

i dont think india is dumb...............india gives so much of importance to other religions in the name of secularism.........................which country on this earth gives imporatance to other religions like-----------than india?
this is the only country with hindu majaority and even in this country hindu has to live in fear for other religions and terrorist!



Dsath do you know where is situated the Hindu kush, and what this name does mean.. ??

eelavar i wish they could change that name..........

[dsath]

[tscii:a1b76234a2]
dsath,

I'm dooing propaganda ?
Ok keep it for you please my lady.

It is not because you are an atheist that you must take the theists for idiots ! :roll:

For atheists, muslims, and chrisitians it could be seen as a propaganda, but for great historian and indologists it is a true fact...

Who to trust ?
I prefer to hear history seen by a well educated historian than a muslim saying it is a propaganda...

This muslim would not trust it even if it is true...


have serious arguments with anyone willing to discuss these issues.

Don't say me that with the age you forgot those 'serious' and strong arguments..

If you have 'serious' arguments please contact me :wink:

Dsath do you know where is situated the Hindu kush, and what this name does mean.. ??
Cool it mate, i am not accusing you of propaganda and i am not an atheists as well. I was but not any more (now I believe in Hinduism). I am just stating that my ideas of many things have changed over a period of time, but not abt feminism (am still a staunch feminist). My dad was a communist and i thought (when i was your age) that communism is the best thing that can happen to India and we must sure follow USSR's path. He used to subscribe to a paper called 'People's Democracy'. It’s a leftist paper published from Kolkata. Not many people knew that such a paper exists. And we had other strange magazines and papers like Semmalar and Thekkathir.
I sure have changed my ideas now, because i am better informed and get to read much more. I can see both sides of the coin now. I know now that USSR was not great after all and they sure didn't treat all their people the same way as was stated in their propaganda material. The real bitter truth was that some 'Party' people got better lifestyles than the rest and had special lanes in road. This was what i was referring to when i said abt the difference between propaganda and real truth.
So no hard feelings. 8-) We will agree to disagree on the genocide issue. :)

[/tscii:a1b76234a2]

[crazy]

My dad was a communist and i thought (when i was your age) that communism is the best thing that can happen to India and we must sure follow USSR's path.

i feel the same. i think communism is better than democracy!

[kannannn]

1. Scrap Article 370 from the constitution, there by assuring the Kashmiris and and rest of the Bharatheeyans that Kashmir is an integral part of Bharath.

2. Severe, read it SEVERE, punishment be given to those who indluge is terrorism and abet terrorism. Nothing short of death penalty for indluging in terrorism and minimum 25 years of R.I. or Death Penalty be given to those who abet terrorism in any form. The accused may chose between 25 years of R.I or instant death and no compromice with any form of terrorism.....and many such....

3. Last but not least, shedding the dirty policy of Minority appeasement.

I think, these above said things are not far from practicabilty.
Interesting, 'cos I have the same opinions. But without knowing your thoughts on the organizations behind the attacks, it is very difficult to debate anymore.


Maybe the killing of innocent Kashmiri teenagers (and hurried burial) by security forces to increase encounter figures is not excessive, since the victims are muslims?![/b]....

Well said!!!!!

So, alwarpet andavan, do you mean to say, if they security personals, don't find a terrorits, then they catch a local kashmiri, who incidentally happen to be a muslim, kill him and show him as terrrorits...."Think man''.....
So do you mean to say the boys are terrorists? Even the Army couldn't come up evidence to prove their claims and had to initiate investigations. Such acts by security forces are not new. Do the words 'Manipur' and 'Armed Forces Special Powers Act' ring any bells. Are all the Manipuris who protested the killing of innocents, siding with the militants? Maybe you should think.


For atheists, muslims, and chrisitians it could be seen as a propaganda, but for great historian and indologists it is a true fact...
Whoa, whoa, cool there Ealavar. What have you got against atheists? And what makes you think all Indologists are right?

[dsath]

Abt Kashmir issue,
Its one of the mess started during partition.
Kashmirs were given the option to choose to stay on their own or accede with either India or Pakistan.

The then king was stupid enough to assume he could rule Kashmir as a separate country.
Pakistan wanted the state to accede with it and so started its infiltration tactics.
India had a lethargic attitude that Kashmir will finally opt to attach with India and were waiting for the King to do something.

When the Pakistan infiltration started the king hastily asked for help from the British (Atlee was preoccupied with things in Britain and the last thing he wanted was to spend more money on South Asia esp when Britan were bankrupt after te war), which did not happen. Sensing this British attitude the king hastily decided to accede with India.
Mountbatten had accepted the accession statement and requested the Indian defense Minister to help Kashmir.
At that point Mountbatten also said that the accession would be completed with the agreement of Kashmiris after the infiltration has been cleared.
And that is still happening.
I think Indira Ghandhi missed a golden opportunity when we had Pakistan at their knees during the 1971 war.
Probably she was too overwhelmed by the victory that she didn't sense this opportunity.

Pakistan has not given up its hope of acceding Kashmir to itself and has employed numerous tactics and one of which (is successful) is playing the religious issue.
The Indian politicians are not one to be left behind.
The congress plays mionrity appeasement to win power.
The BJP plays majority appeasement to win power.
The leftist are too embrolied in political correctness and have lost touch with reality.
Its all a power game played by the rich and powerful.
As a result of this who suffers....Kashmiris both Hindus and Muslims.
There are lots of Kashmiris dead now and living in constant fear of life. I would call it Kashmiri genocide.
Shame on us Indians for standing aside and watching this ridicule.

[pizzalot]

At the time Hindus were killed the majority in India were Buddhists. Which means probably you and me were descendants of Budhhists. The Hindus who were killed were actually terrosrists who were against the majority Budhhist aryans of North India.

Sankara who revived Hinduism was born in the 8th century in South India. The muslim Iranians were Aryans of North India like you and me. That is why they renamed Persia back to Iran meaning Aryan Nation during the world war. They simply adopted Islam as their religion as time passed. Hindu Kush is nothing but brother Aryan killing his brother Aryan. In any case majority of the Aryans those days were not Hindus. They were buddhists. Only a few hindus.

This issue is raised here to give patentship of Hinduism to South India and make Aryans fight against Aryans. We all know Sankara who revived Hinduism in the 8th century was a South Indian.

Beware of this conspiracy against Aryans. Iranians and Afghans are pure Aryans just like we Indians. That is why they swear their loyalty to Hitler. That is the reason why they fight against America.

As Aryans we worshipped all the Gods that they were worshipping in Iran originally. It is just that they still remember they are Aryans and we do not. We lost our worhip of Indra. They lost their wordhip of Daruius and became muslims. A DNA study between the Indian Aryans and them will prove that we are brothers. Religion will come and religion will go. The real Hindu was worhiping Indra. The day when they started worhipping Krishna or Budhha they lost their original religion. But they still have the blood of Aryans.

[Eelavar]

Lol crazy,

You said Democracy, but i guess you wanted to say Capitalism ;-)

What is the cream of the cream in politics it's a democratic communism... :roll: Like our anciants.. A community who lived in a total autonomy..

In communism we can have hope because it is based on a real social philosophy.. No selfiness.. Solidarity.. It is what a call a real civilization based on the egality of all.

But it is sure nothing in this world is perfect so we must take care of some extremist communists who want only power. (URSS China)

Cubans communism is for me a good example of a true communism..

Look how cubans are educated.. But unfortunately they are suffering of American capitalist imperialism...

[Eelavar]

What are you saying pizzalot ?

Buddhists a majority in anciant India ??

Buddhism born in India but left this country rapidly.. But Buddhism was keep alive in South India particulary..

Aryan is not the good term in my point of view..
We are Lemurians..

Pizzalot can you please give me the source of your theory.. :lol:

Real Hindu doesn't exist, because nothing is really real...
We are living in a world of Illusion, Maya is governing our senses and feelings... We are fooled.. We never could see the reality of the instance..
IT IS PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE... B.Coz light speed is not unlimited.

[Surya]

At the time Hindus were killed the majority in India were Buddhists. Which means probably you and me were descendants of Budhhists. The Hindus who were killed were actually terrosrists who were against the majority Budhhist aryans of North India.

Charming Theories! :lol:


Hindu Kush is nothing but brother Aryan killing his brother Aryan.

:? :? When was that region first termed as Hindu Kush? How can it be Brother Aryan Killing Brother Aryan, (The term Aryan just Means "A Noble" & not some Iranian Fella.) if Hindu Kush was only named that after the birth of Islam?


That is why they swear their loyalty to Hitler. That is the reason why they fight against America.

This is pretty Random! :lol2: So now somehow White Supermists like Neo Nazies and Knights of the Ku Klux Klan are somehow Iranians?

When did the Iraninas Pladge their Loyalty to the Nazies?

The Middle East is fighting against the US as some sort of Aryan Battle?!

Oh Boy.....Ok....:roll:

Hitler's Version Of Aryans:

Blonde Hair, Blue Eyes, Caucasian, The World's Most Superior Race.

The Version of Aryans Claimed By Other Western Sources :

A Nomadic Tribe In The Middle East.

Nomads in the Middle East were not Caucasian. Thus, Hitlers Idea of Aryans was Just something he pulled out of his Salad Plate one fine morning. :roll:

Back To The Hindu Genocide:

> Hindu Kush = Hindu Slaughter.

When Did That Region Become Known As The Hindu Kush? Before Or After The Influence Of Islam?

> Hindus Are A Primary Target For Kashmir Mujahedeen Radicals.

> Propaganda: What Exactly Do You Claim Is Propaganda In Hindu Genocide? Are you saying that Hindus Were Never Targetted Because They Were Hindus Starting from Mohammad Of Gazini?

I felt like Organizing the Debate Again, since We Went off Track and Started Discussing Communism, Democracy, Nazies and their Loyalty to Iran. :? :lol:

Regards. 8-)

[bis_mala]

At the time Hindus were killed the majority in India were Buddhists. Which means probably you and me were descendants of Budhhists. The Hindus who were killed were actually terrosrists who were against the majority Budhhist aryans of North India.

Sankara who revived Hinduism was born in the 8th century in South India. The muslim Iranians were Aryans of North India like you and me. That is why they renamed Persia back to Iran meaning Aryan Nation during the world war. They simply adopted Islam as their religion as time passed. Hindu Kush is nothing but brother Aryan killing his brother Aryan. In any case majority of the Aryans those days were not Hindus. They were buddhists. Only a few hindus.

This issue is raised here to give patentship of Hinduism to South India and make Aryans fight against Aryans. We all know Sankara who revived Hinduism in the 8th century was a South Indian.

Beware of this conspiracy against Aryans. Iranians and Afghans are pure Aryans just like we Indians. That is why they swear their loyalty to Hitler. That is the reason why they fight against America.

As Aryans we worshipped all the Gods that they were worshipping in Iran originally. It is just that they still remember they are Aryans and we do not. We lost our worhip of Indra. They lost their wordhip of Daruius and became muslims. A DNA study between the Indian Aryans and them will prove that we are brothers. Religion will come and religion will go. The real Hindu was worhiping Indra. The day when they started worhipping Krishna or Budhha they lost their original religion. But they still have the blood of Aryans.

The term Hindu in your post means "Vedic?"

[pizzalot]

Someone here is covering-up how Neo-Nazis support Iran today.

Who here says Iranians and Indians are not related ? The difference is not even skin deep. A guy from Iran can come and freely rome in Haryana (Aryana) and no one will ever know where he is from.

See how Iranians love India because we are Aryans.

http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/002957.html

Indians somehow think Iranians are Islamic by blood. They just dropped their Darius worship favoring Islam because of its simplicity.

Where as the Aryans in India lost their Indra and Agni to the lesser, darker gods Krishna, Ram and Shiva.

Rig Veda is the only Religious text of Aryans.
Iranians drank soma and danced around the fire in the evenings chanting hymns about their victories.

They did that during 911. Just like we do in India after winning a cricket match. Can you see that in America or UK ? Does it not prove we have the same culture ?

I can prove to you that the cultures are same. Just logon to yahoo chat with feminine profile. See how many Indians , Pak, and Iranians come and bug and annoy you. See how they keep inviting you even when you say you are not interested to chat with them. See how they show their frustration using nasty words. That shows all of them have the same culture. We are all the same indeed.

There is a temple for an actress in South India. They are planning one temple for Rabri in Bihar. All because you let Ram/Krish/Shiva to be worshiped. If we strictly followed Rig, this pathetic situation would not have arisen.

[srivatsan]

Someone here is covering-up how Neo-Nazis support Iran today.

Who here says Iranians and Indians are not related ? The difference is not even skin deep. A guy from Iran can come and freely rome in Haryana (Aryana) and no one will ever know where he is from.

See how Iranians love India because we are Aryans.

http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/002957.html

Indians somehow think Iranians are Islamic by blood. They just dropped their Darius worship favoring Islam because of its simplicity.

Where as the Aryans in India lost their Indra and Agni to the lesser, darker gods Krishna, Ram and Shiva.

Rig Veda is the only Religious text of Aryans.
Iranians drank soma and danced around the fire in the evenings chanting hymns about their victories.

They did that during 911. Just like we do in India after winning a cricket match. Can you see that in America or UK ? Does it not prove we have the same culture ?

I can prove to you that the cultures are same. Just logon to yahoo chat with feminine profile. See how many Indians , Pak, and Iranians come and bug and annoy you. See how they keep inviting you even when you say you are not interested to chat with them. See how they show their frustration using nasty words. That shows all of them have the same culture. We are all the same indeed.

There is a temple for an actress in South India. They are planning one temple for Rabri in Bihar. All because you let Ram/Krish/Shiva to be worshiped. If we strictly followed Rig, this pathetic situation would not have arisen.

I enjoy your childish post pizza! you are a real time-pass! :lol:

[pizzalot]

Not Hindus of today BIS. Hindus today were Buddhists and Jains before. I meant the Hindus of yester-years who were all killed in Hindu Kush by the Hindus of today who were the Buddhists of yester-years.

The people this side of Hindu Kush sold those non-Buddhist Hindus to the people on the other side as slaves. Some were killed because they revolted against the slave owners.

[bis_mala]

Not Hindus of today BIS. Hindus today were Buddhists and Jains before. I meant the Hindus of yester-years who were all killed in Hindu Kush by the Hindus of today who were the Buddhists of yester-years.

The people this side of Hindu Kush sold those non-Buddhist Hindus to the people on the other side as slaves. Some were killed because they revolted against the slave owners.

That is interesting, I am sure our hubbers would like to hear more about this segment of the history or prehistory of "India" with illustrations of the state of the "Hindu religion" in different periods and contexts. It would be fascinating. I hope it is not too exacting to expect a synopsis of chronological survey beginning in the prehistoric times and working down to the period of Sankara.
It is also necessary to convert or neutralise those ideologists who are inclined to dismiss your piece as puerile. Bissie is ever ready to hear more. Please continue.....

[bis_mala]

A somewhat similar development might have taken place in South India, particularly TN. Jains and Buddhists were predominant. The Tamil Epic Manimekalai was said to be by a Buddhist scholar of chettiar community. IlangovadikaL is often labelled as a Jain and if so, his brother Cheran Chengukkuttuvan ( of Kutta Nadu in present Kerala ) (NB. surname "kutty" (of kutta nadu, Kerala) might have been a Jain as well. Cheevaka chintamani was written by a Jain poet. Nannuul was by a Jain. Thirunanukkarasar the saint was also a Jain and he converted to Saivam ("Hinduism"). There are other compositions by Jains. Many may have been discarded and lost.
A Pandian king was Jain and he was converted to "Saivam". It appears that at the height of this religious reformation, many Jains were put to death. Many of our present day Hindus' forefathers might have been Jains or Buddhists for that matter.

[viggop]

Thiruvalluvar and Tolkapiyar are also considered to be Jains by some scholars.Tirunavakarasar was a Hindu who became a jain and reconverted to Hinduism.His sister remained a staunch Hindu though
Other among the great 4 Nayanmars like Manickavasagar,Gnanasampandar,Sudarar were always devootess of Lord Shiva.I think all Allwars were hindus too.They spread bhakthi through their poems and brought back Hinduism as main religion in Tamil Nadu

[pizzalot]

There is a general feeling in India, especially South India, that all Islamic people in the world have the same blood. They have common religion but they do not have common ethnic origins. Iranians today were called the Persians yesterday who called themselves as Aryans.

The Moghuls were NOT persians. They were descendants of Timur and Gengis Khan. They killed the Persian muslims of India with the support of "Hindus" of today. The moghul-today's-hindu nexus is well known in Indian history. They were hardly real quranic muslims. They encouraged the Shiva, Krishna, Ram worship. They were the first capitalists of India. Everything they did was according to "Hindu Dharma". Palaces,Mosques and Temples were built in a grand scale. The high-caste Hindus of today occupied all positions in the Government. The moghuls were happy with their honorary positions.

It was Aurangazeb who dared to break the status quo. He strictly followed Quran which called against everything that the Moghuls and the High-Caste Hindus did. First thing he wanted to do was to stop his father from building Mahals for every wife of his and he did it. The next thing he wanted was to get the tax money ONLY from the rich who happened to be Orthodox High-Caste Hindus in thousands and Moghuls in tens. This made him very unpopular. The High-Caste Rich Krishna and Ram worhipers started distrusting the Moghals and were looking for alternatives. They were scared to death to go to war fare. Simply it was not their life-style to do so. The real man-power needed to come from the very same Rig-Vedic tribes and poor villagers across the sub-continent. So they looked for a common enemy. They begged the British traders who were least interested in politics to take-over the rule from the Moghuls. When the English just did that they occupied high-positions which enabled you and me to gain access to internet and participate in these forums.

When the English in UK started questioning this status quo they again became villains. Real Ram and Krishna took their avatars and apeared for the first time for the Aryan tribes and asked them to show their tribal warfare skills against the british. That they did while the clergy high-caste clerks, in the British Offices, whose souls were a part of the paramathma, were honestly sympathetic to these tribes reading and observing the developments. But the great British did not fear the petty tribes. They feared the Germans who were bringing them to their knees during the world war. They spoke to the elite clergy clerks to ask the barbaric tribes to fight the Germans instead of fighting the British. They happily did that provided they gave the rule of India back only to them. They asked the tribes to fight against the Germans and not the British. Some thought Hitler would win and wanted these tribes to help him instead. The great great Netaji went to Germany and instead of demanding for the release of the tribal indian captives, told the captives that they will be anyhow killed by the Germans so better support and fight against the British and prove their "Aryan" identity to the Germans. They happily did that. They were all killed in the war anyway.

After the war the British wanted to leave India and other colonies in Asia and Africa and instead concentrate just their home rule. Gandhi and Jinnah told the barbaric tribes that "they" got them the freedom. They will not explain how Sri Lanka and all the other British colonies got their "freedom" without them.

The ordinary tribe living the Rig-Vedic life spends his day hunting, gathering, scavenging and fighting for the souls whose athmas are part of the Paramathmas.

He is kept busy by them to fight for them. Some times he gets the "dharshan" of Ram and Krishna with their bow and arrow who ask him to vote for them in the election. The Rig-Vedic man never under-stood why he faught or against whom he faught, but nevertheless he was always excited about fighting. So he fights against British, Germany, Iran, Iraq, the Congress,the BJP, Christians, Muslims and everyone except the Ram/Krishna/Shiva of today, Moghuls of yesterday and the Jains and Buddhists of the day-before or all the Clergy, Self-Realized, Twice-Thrice Born souls who are always friendly to everyone, IT Nerds, Great Souls next only to Paramathma, who praise their culture, how they counted 1 to 9 before everyone did and who fights for the "culture" while eating Pizzas and Ham-Burgers in Bangalore, New Jersey, London and several other places.

They beautifuly disguise as Neo-Nazis in Germany, Keralite in Kerala, Vihari in Bihar and so on but they can easily be indentified if asked to stand next to the Rig-Vedic man. They were not the ones slaughtered in Hindu-Kush. The ones who were slaughtered is this innocent, barbaric Rig Vedic on that side of the Indus by the innocent, barbaric Rig-Vedic on the other side.

Suddenly thes great souls are raising their voice for this Rig-Vedic barbaric tribes from all over the world on internet, books and so on. And the Rig-Vedic man is excited and is getting his weapons ready as ever. After all it is he who has to fight in either side of the Hindu Kush. If he does not fight who else will ?

[Eelavar]

What rubbish is he saying ?

Sorry mate you are very confused.

Firstly you claimed that Buddhists were majority (we know that Buddha is the first buddhist !!!!).. And next that actual Hindus killed Persians..

What a non-sense !

Srivastan you are right it's funny to read but it is a non sense talking..

Pizzalot please give the source..

It is nonsense !

[Eelavar]

[tscii:800b12cd97]pizzalot wrote


The moghul-today's-hindu nexus is well known in Indian history. They were hardly real quranic muslims. They encouraged the Shiva, Krishna, Ram worship.

Francois Gautier wrote


NEGATIONISM AND THE MUSLIM CONQUESTS

It is important to stop a moment and have a look at what the Belgian scholar Koenraad Elst, has called "negationism in India". In his foreword to the book of the same title, Koenraad explains that negationism, which means in this context "the denial of historical crimes against humanity", is not a new phenomenon. In modern history, the massacre by the Turks of 1,5 millions Armenians, or that of the 6 million Jews by the Nazis, the several millions of Russians by Stalin, or again the 1 million Tibetans by the Chinese communists, are historical facts which have all been denied by their perpetrators...
But deny is not the exact word. They have been negated in a thousand ways: gross, clever, outrageous, subtle, so that in the end, the minds of people are so confused and muddled, that nobody knows anymore where the truth is.
Sometimes, it is the numbers that are negated or passed under silence: the Spanish conquest of South America has been one of the bloodiest and most ruthless episodes in history. Elst estimates that out of the population of native Continental South America of 1492, which stood at 90 million, only 32 million survived; terrible figures indeed but who talks about them today ?
"But what of the conquest of India by Muslims", asks Elst?
In other parts of Asia and Europe, the conquered nations quickly opted for conversion to Islam rather than death. But in India, because of the staunch resistance of the 4000 year old Hindu faith, the Muslim conquests were for the Hindus a pure struggle between life and death. Entire cities were burnt down and their populations massacred. Each successive campaign brought hundreds of thousands of victims and similar numbers were deported as slaves. Every new invader made often literally his hill of Hindu skulls. Thus the conquest of Afghanistan in the year 1000, was followed by the annihilation of the entire Hindu population there; indeed, the region is still called Hindu Kush, 'Hindu slaughter'. The Bahmani sultans in central India, made it a rule to kill 100.000 Hindus a year. In 1399, Teimur killed 100.000 Hindus IN A SINGLE DAY, and many more on other occasions. Koenraad Elst quotes Professor K.S. Lal's "Growth of Muslim population in India", who writes that according to his calculations, the Hindu population decreased by 8O MILLION between the year 1000 and 1525. INDEED PROBABLY THE BIGGEST HOLOCAUST IN THE WHOLE WORLD HISTORY. (Negat.34)

But the "pagans" were far too numerous to kill them all; and Hinduism too well entrenched in her people's soul, never really gave up, but quietly retreated in the hearts of the pious and was preserved by the Brahmins' amazing oral powers. Thus, realising that they would never be able to annihilate the entire Indian population and that they could not convert all the people, the Muslims rulers, particularly under the Hanifite law, allowed the pagans to become "zimmis" (protected ones) under 20 humiliating conditions, with the heavy "jizya", the toleration tax, collected from them.
"It is because of Hanifite law, writes Mr Elst, that many Muslim rulers in India considered themselves exempted from the duty to continue the genocide of Hindus". The last "jihad" against the Hindus was waged by the much glorified Tipu Sultan, at the end of the 18th century. Thereafter, particularly following the crushing of the 1857 rebellion by the British, Indian Muslims fell into a state of depression and increasing backwardness, due to their mollah's refusal of British education (whereas the elite Hindus gradually went for it) and their nostalgia for the "glorious past"'. It is only much later, when the British started drawing them into the political mainstream, so as to divide India, that they started regaining some predominance.

Negationism means that this whole aspect of Indian history has been totally erased, not only from history books, but also from the memory, from the consciousness of Indian people. Whereas the Jews have constantly tried, since the Nazi genocide, to keep alive the remembrance of their six million martyrs, the Indian leadership, political and intellectual, has made a wilful and conscious attempt to deny the genocide perpetrated by the Muslims. No one is crying for vengeance. Do the Jews of today want to retaliate upon contemporary Germany? NO. It is only a matter of making sure that history does not repeat its mistakes, as alas it is able to do today: witness the persecution of Hindus in Kashmir, whose 250.000 Pandits have fled their 5000 year old homeland; or the 50.000 Hindus chased from Afghanistan; or the oppression of Hindus in Bangladesh and Pakistan. And most of all, to remember, is to BE ABLE TO LOOK AT TODAY WITH THE WISDOM OF YESTERDAY. No collective memory should be erased for appeasing a particular community.

Yet, what has happened in India, at the hand of Hindus themselves, is a constant denial and even a perversion of the genocide committed by Muslims in India. Hasn't the "radical humanist" M.N. Roy, written "that Islam has fulfilled a historic mission of equality and abolition of discrimination in India, and that for this, Islam has been welcomed in India by the lower castes". "If AT ALL any violence occurred, he goes on to say, it was a matter of justified class struggle by the progressive forces against the reactionary forces, meaning the feudal Hindu upper classes.."
Want to listen to another such quote? This one deals with Mahmud Ghaznavi, the destroyer of thousands of Hindu temples, who according to his chronicler Utbi, sang the praise of the Mathura temple complex, sacred above all to all Hindus... and promptly proceeded to raze it to the ground: "Building interested Mahmud and he was much impressed by the city of Mathura, where there are today a thousand edifices as firm as the faith of the faithful. Mahmud was not a religious man. He was a Mahomedan, but that was just by the way. He was in the first place a soldier and a brilliant soldier"... Amazing eulogy indeed of the man who was proud of desecrating hundreds of temples and made it a duty to terrorise and humiliate pagans. And guess from whom is that quote? From Jawaharlal Nehru himself, the first Prime Minister of India and one of the architects of independence!

M.N. Roy, and Nehru in a lesser degree, represent the foremost current of negationism in India, which is Marxist inspired. For strangely, it was the Russian communists who decided to cultivate the Arabs after the First World War, in the hope that they constituted a fertile ground for future indoctrination. One should also never forget that Communism has affected whole generations of ardent youth, who saw in Marxism a new ideology in a world corrupted by capitalism and class exploitation. Nothing wrong in that; but as far as indoctrination goes, the youth of the West, particularly of the early sixties and seventies, were all groomed in sympathising with the good Arabs and the bad Jews. And similarly in India, two or three young generations since the early twenties, were tutored on negating Muslim genocide on the Hindus. In "Communalism and the writing of Indian history", Romila Thapar, Harbans Mukhia and Bipan Chandra, professors at the JNU in New Delhi, the Mecca of secularism and negationism in India, denied the Muslim genocide by replacing it instead with a conflict of classes. The redoubtable Romila Thapar in her "Penguin History of India", co-authored with Percival Spear, writes: "Aurangzeb's supposed intolerance, is little more than a hostile legend based on isolated acts such as the erection of a mosque on a temple site in Benares". How can one be so dishonest, or so blind? But it shows how negationism is perpetuated in India.

What are the facts? Aurangzeb (1658-1707) did not just build an isolated mosque on a destroyed temple, he ordered ALL temples destroyed, among them the Kashi Vishvanath, one of the most sacred places of Hinduism and had mosques built on a number of cleared temples sites. All other Hindu sacred places within his reach equally suffered destruction, with mosques built on them. A few examples: Krishna's birth temple in Mathura, the rebuilt Somnath temple on the coast of Gujurat, the Vishnu temple replaced with the Alamgir mosque now overlooking Benares and the Treta-ka-Thakur temple in Ayodhya. (Neg 60). The number of temples destroyed by Aurangzeb is counted in 4, if not 5 figures; according to his own official court chronicles: "Aurangzeb ordered all provincial governors to destroy all schools and temples of the Pagans and to make a complete end to all pagan teachings and practices". The chronicle sums up the destructions like this: "Hasan Ali Khan came and said that 172 temples in the area had been destroyed... His majesty went to Chittor and 63 temples were destroyed..Abu Tarab, appointed to destroy the idol-temples of Amber, reported that 66 temples had been razed to the ground".. Aurangzeb did not stop at destroying temples, their users were also wiped-out; even his own brother, Dara Shikoh, was executed for taking an interest in Hindu religion and the Sikh Guru Tegh Bahadur was beheaded because he objected to Aurangzeb's forced conversions. As we can see Romila Thapar and Percival Spear's statement of a benevolent Aurangzeb is a flagrant attempt at negationism. Even the respectable Encyclopedia Brittannica in its entry on India, does not mention in its chapter on the Sultanate period any persecutions of Hindus by Muslims, except "that Firuz Shah Tughlaq made largely unsuccessful attempts at converting his Hindu subjects and sometime persecuted them".
The British, for their own selfish purpose, were of course greatly responsible for whitewashing the Muslims, whom they needed to counterbalance the influence of the Hindus and the Congress. It is sad that Jawarlhal Nehru and the Congress perpetuated that brand of negationism. But that is another story.

The happiest in this matter must be the Muslims themselves. What fools these Hindus are, they must be telling themselves: We killed them by the millions, we wrested a whole nation out of them, we engineer riots against them, and they still defend us!...
But don't the Hindus know that many orthodox Indian Muslims still cling to the Deoband school, which says that India was once "Dar-ul-Islam", the house of Islam, and should return to that status. Maulana Abul Kala Azad, several times Congress President, and Education Minister in free India, was a spokesman for this school. The Aligarh school on the contrary, led by Mohammed Iqbal, propounded the creation of Pakistan. What particularly interests us in the Aligarh school is the attempt by Muslim historians, such as Mohamed Habiib, to rewrite the Chapter of Muslim invasions in India. In 1920, Habib started writing his magnum opus, which he based on four theories: 1) that the records (written by the Muslims themselves) of slaughters of Hindus, the enslaving of their women and children and razing of temples were "mere exaggerations by court poets and zealous chroniclers to please their rulers". 2) That they were indeed atrocities, but mainly committed by Turks, the savage riders from the Steppe. 3) That the destruction of the temples took place because Hindus stored their gold and jewels inside them and therefore Muslim armies plundered these. 4) That the conversion of millions of Hindus to Islam was not forced, "but what happened was there was a shift of opinion in the population, who on its own free will chose the Shariat against the Hindu law (smriti), as they were all oppressed by the bad Brahmins"...!!! (Negationism p.42)

Unfortunately for Habib and his school, the Muslims invaders did record with glee their genocide on Hindus, because they felt all along that they were doing their duty; that killing, plundering, enslaving and razing temples was the work of God, Mohammed. Indeed, whether it was Mahmud of Ghazni (997-1030), who was no barbarian, although a Turk, and patronised art and literature, would recite a verse of the Koran every night after having razed temples and killed his quota of unbelievers; or Firuz Shah Tughlak (1351-1388) who personally confirms that the destruction of Pagan temples was done out of piety and writes: "on the day of a Hindu festival, I went there myself, ordered the executions of all the leaders AND PRACTITIONERS of his abomination; I destroyed their idols temples and built mosques in their places". Finally, as Elst points out, "Muslim fanatics were merely faithful executors of Quranic injunctions. It is not the Muslims who are guilty but Islam". (Negationism in India, p. 44)

It is not only Indian historians, who are negationists, but also western historians and India-specialists. We know that the first historians of Indian – the Britishers – twisted India’s history to suit their theory that they had come to civilize a race which was not only inferior to them, but also was supposed to have been heavily influenced in its philosophies or arts by European invaders – read the Aryans or Alexander the Great. But what is less known is that today many western historians not only still cling to these old outdated theories, but also actually more or less willfully mislead the general European public, who is generally totally ignorant and takes these “knowledgeable” comments about India as the absolute truth. One example is France, which has a long tradition of Indianists, who devote their time and life to the study of India. The main school of historic research in France is called the CNRS (National Center of Social Research), which has a very important South Asia section, of which India, of course, is the main component. Unfortunately, many of these India-specialists are not only Left-leaning, that is they are very close to the ideas of the JNU historians, with whom they are anyway in constant contact, but many of them are specialists of the Moghol period of India history, which is to say that they are sympathetic to Islam’s point of view on India, while they often consider Hindus as fanatics…

Take for instance the most recent Indian History book published in France “Histoire de l’Inde moderne” (1994 Fayard / Paris), the authors (there are seven of, all famous Indianists), having subscribed to the usual Aryan invasion theory, accuse Shiva “to incarnate obscure forces” (Introduction III) and of course use the word “fanatics” to describe the Hindus who brought down the Ayodhya mosque. Basically, the book does an apology of he moghol period in India; while keeping quiet about all their crimes. In the chapter dealing for instance with Vijaynagar, the last great empire of free India, which symbolized a Hindu Renaissance after nine centuries of savage Muslim conquests, one cannot but perceive the enmity of the authors for Hinduism. The two young princes, founder of Vijaynagar who were converted by force to Islam when in captivity, are accused of “duplicity”, because they reverted back to Hinduism as soon as they were free; then the French historians highlight the “ambition of Brahmins, who used these two young princes to reconquer the power that at been lost at the hands of the conquering Muslims” (page 54); the book then mentions “the unquenchable exigencies of the (Hindu) central power in Vijaynagar”, forgetting to say that that for the first time in centuries, Hindus could practice freely their faith, that they were not killed, their women raped, their children taken as slaves and converted to Islam. And all this to finally sum up in seven words the terrible end of Vijaynagar, which has left a wound in the Hindu psyche even up to today: “looting and massacres lasted for three days”…

But the authors of “Histoire de l’Inde moderne” do not only run down Hindus, they also glorify Muslims, particularly the Moghols. Babur for instance, this monster who killed hundreds of thousands of Hindus and razed thousands of temples becomes at their hands a gentle hero: “ Babur did not like India and preferred to isolate himself in the exquisite gardens he had devised, with their geometrical design, their crossed canals, which evoked to him the rivers of paradise”. Oh, God what a sensitive poet! And to make it sound even more glorious, the author adds: “there he translated a manual of Koranic law and a Sufi treaty of morals”. Oh, what a saint and lover of humanity… Aurangzeb, the cruelest of the Moghul emperors, has also the full sympathies of the authors: “Aurangzeb seems to have concentrated on himself the hatred of militant Hindus, who attribute to him systematic destruction of temples and massive conversion drives. But this Manichean impression has to be seriously countered (page 126)”… Unfortunately for the authors, as we have seen earlier, Aurangzeb was not only proud of what he was doing to the Hindus, but he had his scribes note each deed down for posterity…

These French Indianists have also a tradition of speaking against the BJP, which they have always labeled as “fundamentalist” and dangerous for the “secular” fabric of India, although the BJP has been in power for quite a few years and nothing dramatic has happened to the secular fabric of India. The problem is that these Indianists not only write lengthy and pompous articles in France’s main newspapers, such as Left-leaning Le Monde, explaining to the ignorant reader why is India on the point of exploding because of fanatic Hindus, or how the Harijans in India are still the most downtrodden people on earth (this is why when President Narayanan visited France in April 2000, all the French newspapers chose to only highlight that he was an untouchable and that religious minorities in India were persecuted, nearly provoking a diplomatic incident between France and India), but unfortunately they also advise the French government, who like his citizens, is often shamefully ignorant and uninterested by India. This is why, although there has been a lot of sympathy for the French in India because of their tolerant response to the Indian nuclear tests of 1998 (whereas the whole western world reacted hysterically by imposing absurd sanctions), France has not yet bothered to capitalize on this sympathy and has not managed to realize that India is the ideal economic alternative to a very volatile China.

It would be nice to say that Indian journalists are not blind to this influence of French Indianists and the adverse impact it has on Indo-French relations, but when Christophe Jaffrelot, for instance who wrote a nasty book on Hindu fundamentalism and is most responsible for the bad image the BJP in France, comes to India to release the English translation of his book, he is feted by the Press corps and all kind of laudatory reviews are printed in the Indian Press. So much for secularism in India.

And, ultimately, it is a miracle that Hinduism survived the onslaught of Muslim savagery; it shows how deep was her faith, how profound her karma, how deeply ingrained her soul in the hearts of her faithfuls. We do not want to point a finger at Muslim atrocities, yet they should not be denied and their mistakes should not be repeated today. But the real question is: Can Islam ever accept Hinduism? We shall turn towards the Sage, the yogi, who fought for India's independence, accepting the Gita's message of karma of violence when necessary, yet had a broad vision that softened his words: "You can live with a religion whose principle is toleration. But how is it possible to live peacefully with a religion whose principle is "I will not tolerate you? How are you going to have unity with these people?...The Hindu is ready to tolerate; he is open to new ideas and his culture and has got a wonderful capacity for assimilation, but always provided India's central truth is recognised.. (Sri Aurobindo India's Rebirth 161,173)
Or behold this, written on September 1909: "Every action for instance which may be objectionable to a number of Mahomedans, is now liable to be forbidden because it is likely to lead to a breach of peace. And one is dimly beginning to wonder whether worship in Hindu temples may be forbidden on that valid ground (India's Rebirth p. 55). How prophetic! Sri Aurobindo could not have foreseen that so many Muslim countries would ban Rushdie's book and that Hindu processions would often be forbidden in cities, for fear of offending the Muslims. Sri Aurobindo felt that sooner or later Hindus would have to assert again the greatness of Hinduism.

And here we must say a word about monotheism, for it is the key to the understanding of Islam. Christians and Muslims have always harped on the fact that their religions sprang-up as a reaction against the pagan polytheist creeds, which adored many Gods. « There is only one real God they said (ours), all the rest are just worthless idols ». This « monotheism versus polytheism business » has fuelled since then the deep, fanatic, violent and murderous zeal of Islam against polytheist religions, particularly against Hinduism, which is the most comprehensive, most widely practiced of all them. It even cemented an alliance of sorts between the two great monotheist religions of the world, Christianity and Islam, witness the Britishers’ attitude in India, who favoured Indian Muslims and Sikhs against the Hindus; or the King of Morocco who, even though he is one of the most moderate Muslim leaders in the world, recently said in an interview: « we have no fight with Christianity, our battle is against the Infidel who adores many gods ».
But as we have seen earlier, Hinduism is without any doubt the most monotheist religion in the World, for it recognises divine unity in multiplicity. It does not say: « there is only one God, which is Mohammed. If you do not believe in Him I will kill you ». It says instead: « Yes Mohammed is a manifestation of God, but so is Christ, or Buddha, or Krishna, or Confucius ». This philosophy, this way of seeing, which the Christians and Muslims call « impious », is actually the foundation for a true monotheist understanding of the world. It is because of this « If you do not recognize Allah (or Christ), I will kill you », that tens of millions of Hindus were slaughtered by Arabs and other millions of South Americans annihilated by the Christians. And ultimately the question is: Are the Muslims of today ready to accept Hinduism ? Unfortunately no. For Muslims all over the world, Hinduism is still the Infidel religion « par excellence ». This what their religion tell them, at every moment, at every verse, at the beginning of each prayer : « Only Allah is great ». And their mollahs still enjoin them to go on fight « jihad » to deliver the world of the infidels. And if the armies of Babar are not there any longer; and if it is not done any more to kill a 100.000 Hindus in a day, there is still the possibility of planting a few bombs in Coimbatore, of fuelling separatisms in the hated land and eventually to drop a nuclear device, which will settle the problem once and for all. As to the Indian Muslim, he might relate to his Hindu brother, for whatever he says, he remains an Indian, nay a Indu; but his religion will make sure that he does not forget that his duty is to hate the Infidel. This is the crux of the problem today and the riddle if Islam has to solved, if it wants to survive in the long run.

We will never be able to assess the immense physical harm done to India by the Muslim invasions. Even more difficult is to estimate the moral and the spiritual damage done to Hindu India. But once again, the question is not of vengeance, or of reawakening old ghosts, but of not repeating the same mistakes. Unfortunately, the harm done by the Muslims conquest is not over. The seeds planted by the Moghols, by Babar, Mahmud, or Aurangzeb, have matured: the 125 million Indian Muslims of today have forgotten that they were once peaceful, loving Hindus, forcibly converted to a religion they hated. And they sometimes take-up as theirs a cry of fanaticism which is totally alien to their culture. Indeed, as Sri Aurobindo once said: "More than 90% of the Indian Muslims are descendants of converted Hindus and belong as much to the Indian nation as the Hindu themselves"...(Rebirth of India, p.237) The embryo of secession planted by the Mahomedans, has also matured into a poisonous tree which has been called Pakistan and comes back to haunt India through three wars and the shadow of a nuclear conflict embracing South Asia. And in India, Kashmir and Kargil are reminders that the Moghol cry for the house of Islam in India is not yet over.[/tscii:800b12cd97]

[Surya]

Pizzalot just seems to be lost in his own swirl of White Supremist Theories...I wonder if its even white supremist though. This theory might need a new catogorization! :P

[Eelavar]

I hope my quotation of 'Arise Again O India'
will enlight pizzalot..

Fantastic, nothing to say about this text....

[pizzalot]

Arise and do what Eelavar ?

Just one draw out of your big post: Tipu. There are lot of songs and praises of the slayed Tipu going around the rural villages of Karnataka. Tipu faught against British AND the Mysore King. Yet even in the villages near mysore they praise Tipu. If he performed Holocaust of the Hindus for which the British killed him why should villagers sing and praise him in their folk songs ? They fondly call him Tiger of Mysore when there was a real King Of Mysore
His story is very similar to Katta Bomman. The British had to develop a big case in order to destroy their last Political opponent. And most of them were falsely generated.

I was not lost Surya. I never tried to put a theory here. The entire history of India cannot be contained in any theory.

[kannannn]

pizzalot, Please present your views in a coherent manner. I am lost half-way through your posts. Why did you jump to medieval history without elaborating on what might have happened earlier. As mala pointed out it would be interesting if you could illustrate the state of Hindu religion, pre and post-Buddha, in a more comprehensible way (with references or proofs, may I add)

[pizzalot]

[tscii:e06b3797c2]Read this and see if sounds like what Lal is saying :

The Hindus resided and carried out their activities in the Biligirirangan and Malai Mahadeswara Hills and Sathyamangalam and Gundiyal forests, covering 6,000 km² in the states of Karnataka, Kerala and Tamil Nadu. They were wanted for killing about 124 people, including senior police and forest officials, poaching about 200 elephants, and smuggling ivory worth US$2,600,000 and sandalwood of about 10,000 tonnes worth US$22,000,000. Their Hindu Leader had a price of Rs. 50 million (Rs. 5 crore or US$1.1 million) on his head, but evaded arrest for 20 years until he was killed by police in 2004. Unofficially, it is estimated that about 2,000,000,000 rupees (200,000,000 per year) was spent over ten years by the government in order to capture this Hindu leader.

This is a passage on Veerapan, who is a Hindu.

Eelavar, next time please quote a passage from secular authentic sources.

"Arise Again O India" : Thats just a echo Eelavar.[/tscii:e06b3797c2]

[pizzalot]

Today's population of Muslims is about than 15% of India's population even after SC and ST conversion. So during the Moghul period their population should have been far less than that. How could they have ruled the entire Indian population for over 700 years ? There lies the clue of for the dangerous nexus between religion and politics.

Aurangazeb broke this nexus so he bacame a villain. His policies targeted only High-Caste Hindus. If he was like today's politicians he could have retained his luxuries by going with the status quo which was very strongly built on the Hindu Caste and Varna System. His only motive was to destroy this system and not power or name. He destroyed the Krishna/Shiva/Ram temples around which this system was breeding for years. For me he is Aurangazeb, The Great.

Sorry for being incoherent Kannan. But that is what it is , the Indian history.

[pizzalot]

This is the closest source I could find to support my argument on "Buddhism was majority"

http://www.ctcvan.ca/origin-of-buddhism.php


Kannan, here is a summary of my views:

1. Until Samkara there was no Hinduism as it stands in its present form. Samkara copied the Buddhist scriptures, modified them a little and re-published them as Upanishads. Theoretically it was Buddhism. This fraud happened during the 8th century. They destroyed and killed some Budhists and took away their shrines. According to Dr. K. Jamanadas even Tirumala was a Buddhist shrine.
check-out
http://www.dalitstan.org/books/tirupati/


3. Persians called us Hindus and refered us as Hindustanis. ( Wikipedia ). We accepted that name and live happily with that name until now. They having named us we must respect them. Usually the parents name us. So I call for a DNA study between the two nations which will clear everything. It looks like they gave us the language too. Hindi and Urdu they say, came from Persian and not Sanskrit. So what I see here is they named us and they taught us how to speak just like our parents will do. So we must love them.

4. They "Kushed" Hindus or a Hindu who Kushed lived there we do not know and so we should not talk about it. Also we had not adopted the name "Hindus" that time. So it was not us. Why bother about who was khushed ?

5. The major confusion here is because of the use of the word "Hindus". Shall we call ourselves as Non-Muslims ? Let me know if you all agree to it.

6. Aurangazeb is Great because he broke the criminal nexus between Rich-Hindus and Muslims.

Which of the points you contend and where do you want me to substantiate more ? Please let me know.

[pizzalot]

Elavar wrote :

"Thereafter, particularly following the crushing of the 1857 rebellion by the British, Indian Muslims fell into a state of depression and increasing backwardness, due to their mollah's refusal of British education (whereas the elite Hindus gradually went for it) and their nostalgia for the "glorious past"'.

---------

So only the elite Hindus went for it Eelavar ? Why not the others ? Can you talk about that also ? Who are they today ? All I can tell you is the are not the 90% of those who constitute India today.

I really want you to answer me on this one.

[bis_mala]

hI pizzalot . You have a lot to tell us ; only that you have unleashed so much at such a speed, the recipients are KOed or become comatose. Do not be discouraged; please help by organizing your facts with suitable headings, give them to us over a period of time step by step so that even the slow reader can catch up with you. I have already noted some interesting points in your posts. Am looking forward to elaboration from you; hope you will be sorting out what you have for us, making consumption easy and smooth. If you have text book references, will be happy to see them as well.

B I SIVAMAALAA

=======================================
Long long to sing by rote
I have no other choice
Either for pen or voice
To sing or write!!
They wrong thee much
That say thy sweet is bitter!!
When thy fruit is ripe and as such
Nothing can be sweeter!!
-- Hume.

[crazy]

When the English just did that they occupied high-positions which enabled you and me to gain access to internet and participate in these forums.


:roll:

[MumbaiRamki]

Today's population of Muslims is about than 15% of India's population even after SC and ST conversion. So during the Moghul period their population should have been far less than that. How could they have ruled the entire Indian population for over 700 years ? There lies the clue of for the dangerous nexus between religion and politics...

My knowledge in history is not that strong .But going by reason -This is possible .
How did British who are just 1/10 of the Indian Population( may be lesss??) able to rule India for 200 years ?

Ruling has nothing to do with the population.It has to do with the skill and power !!
Honestly i think the purity of history is gone .Its stuck between VHPs and the communists who twist the truth as they like.


My friends ,seek the truth and then form an opinion,not the other way .It is long process and not a one page discussion !!!!
Read ROmila Thappar as well as Arun SHourie so that you can see both the sides of the coin .

[crazy]

How did British who are just 1/10 of the Indian Population( may be lesss??) able to rule India for 200 years ?.

british.......u mean the christians(now in india) or do u mean those brits who lived/ ruled for 60 yrs ago?

[MumbaiRamki]

How come christians are ruling us now ???I referred to British ,who lruled us till 1947 ?

[crazy]

How come christians are ruling us now ???I referred to British ,who lruled us till 1947 ?

ok!

[pizzalot]

Thanks for the encouraging words BIS.

[pizzalot]

Today's population of Muslims is about than 15% of India's population even after SC and ST conversion. So during the Moghul period their population should have been far less than that. How could they have ruled the entire Indian population for over 700 years ? There lies the clue of for the dangerous nexus between religion and politics...

My knowledge in history is not that strong .But going by reason -This is possible .
How did British who are just 1/10 of the Indian Population( may be lesss??) able to rule India for 200 years ?

Ruling has nothing to do with the population.It has to do with the skill and power !!
Honestly i think the purity of history is gone .Its stuck between VHPs and the communists who twist the truth as they like.


My friends ,seek the truth and then form an opinion,not the other way .It is long process and not a one page discussion !!!!
Read ROmila Thappar as well as Arun SHourie so that you can see both the sides of the coin .

You took the entire population of UK ? Not just the ones who stayed and actually ruled ? They were just in few hundreds. They ruled because the people favored their rule over the Indian Kings. No "divide and rule" policy would have succeeded if the rule itself was unpopular.

All the British and Muslims had to do was to take care of these minority Indian elites. The elites are the ring-masters in India. The elites were masters in training the "majority beasts" successfuly for thousands of years. When the elite Indians forsaw a great career in British Government their loyalty shifted from Sultans to British. The "majority beasts" always obeyed their ring masters. Their art was more sophisticated than the British's "divide and rule". They exactly know when to bring-up the issue of "cow-slaughter" or "Ayodhya" or the "Hindu Kush".

[pizzalot]

Today's population of Muslims is about than 15% of India's population even after SC and ST conversion. So during the Moghul period their population should have been far less than that. How could they have ruled the entire Indian population for over 700 years ? There lies the clue of for the dangerous nexus between religion and politics...

My knowledge in history is not that strong .But going by reason -This is possible .
How did British who are just 1/10 of the Indian Population( may be lesss??) able to rule India for 200 years ?

Ruling has nothing to do with the population.It has to do with the skill and power !!
Honestly i think the purity of history is gone .Its stuck between VHPs and the communists who twist the truth as they like.


My friends ,seek the truth and then form an opinion,not the other way .It is long process and not a one page discussion !!!!
Read ROmila Thappar as well as Arun SHourie so that you can see both the sides of the coin .

You took the entire population of UK ? Not just the ones who stayed and actually ruled India ? They were just a few hundreds. They ruled because the people favored their rule over the Indian Kings. No "divide and rule" policy would have succeeded if the rule itself was unpopular.

All the British and Muslims had to do was to take care of these minority Indian elites. The elites are the ring-masters in India. The elites were masters in training the "majority beasts" successfuly for thousands of years. When the elite Indians forsaw a great career in British Government their loyalty shifted from Sultans to British. The "majority beasts" always obeyed their ring masters. Their art was more sophisticated than the British's "divide and rule". They exactly know when to bring-up the issue of "cow-slaughter" or "Ayodhya" or the "Hindu Kush" or "Varanasi Temple".

I always used to feel ashamed of when India was losing in Olympics and every game on the international forum. Even China bagged so many medals. But India will struggle for a single Bronze. I never understood how, having one-fifth of the world population, we did not deserve a single Gold in international games. We are united as a nation today. Then why have we not won ? As I understand it, India, with nearly 1 billion population is in reality, a few ring-masters and they suck in international competition. If you remove the undue previlege that they have got in India, they will be extinct in few years.

Some how I see a trend of micro-nationalism and development. See the states which take pride of themselves instead of "India". They seem to do better. Gujarat, Maharashtra, Karnataka, Kerala and TN. They are doing much better compared to the States where pseudo-nationalism without micro-nationalism prevails. Then imagine the state of development if this micro-nationalism further moves down to the level of individual men and women being able to take pride in themselves regardless of their birth records !

[pizzalot]

[tscii:255668edca]Previously someone proposed Aryan Invasion. When I was reading it, I did not understand what it meant. I did not dig into it because someone said it was a hoax.

I praised the Rig Vedic people thinking they were a society favoring simple and poor aryans who based their lives on land and water. If it was also a veda which propagated the Varna system, I want to be the first to distance away from it. (Can someone here explain to me if it did propagate the vicious Varna system or not ?)

I had always favored DNA studies over any "hypo-thesis". This study indicates who the upper-caste people infact are based on Y-DNA. It explains why this shit system is so deeply rooted in our society and how the hindu system can be so cruel and a-moralistic for thousands of years.

The following is a cut and paste from "http://www.friendsofsouthasia.org/textbook/Recent_Findings_Archaeogenetics.html"

"Introduction :

It had been argued [in the December 2, 2005 Curriculum Commission hearing] by the Vedic Foundation (VF) and the Hindu Education Foundation (HEF) supporters on the basis of a 1999 paper by Toomas Kivisild et al that the Aryan Invasion Theory has been “conclusively disproved” and should therefore be discarded from 6th grade school textbooks currently in the review process. Based upon these arguments, the Curriculum Commission had decided to accept many changes proposed by VF/HEF relating to the question of Aryan origin.


The study by Kivisild et al primarily focused on the question of the original migration of the human race from Africa some 50,000 years ago, and as such was not meant to determine the question of Aryan origin that is said to have happened around 3,500 years back. Further, the study was restrictive in that it dwelt primarily on the evolution/mutation of maternal genetic material (mitochondrial DNA) and did not take paternal genetic inheritance into account. Additionally, DNA dates work well for the periods of the Exodus out of Africa (c. 60,000 BCE); but by the time of the Indo-Aryan influx into South Asia (c. 1500 BCE) any DNA calculation has huge temporal error bars that render the exercise useless for the question at hand, at least at the present state of research. Lastly, the presently acknowledged Aryan Influx Theory is based on a combination of cultural-linguistic migration of Indo-European people into India. Since genes and languages do not necessarily migrate in tandem, the findings of genetic migration patterns from Archeogenetic studies are not central to the determination of Aryan origin.


Nonetheless, since the 1999 paper by Kivisild was offered by HEF/VF supporters as “proof” of the indigenous origins of Aryan/Vedic people, we are presenting below a brief summary of more recent Archeogenetic studies as relates to the question of Aryan origin and related theories of Aryan invasion, influx or migration. The several papers cited and included here are more recent than the Kivisild paper and have argued in favor of an Indo-European genetic migration into India. These papers have not been acknowledged by the VF/HEF in the partisan promotion of their Aryan Indigenity Theory.


Abstracts of key studies referred to below along with links/references to the full publication are included at the end of this document.




Summary


A 2001 examination of male Y-DNA by Indian and American scientists [which also incidentally includes Toomas Kivisild as one of the authors] indicated that higher castes are genetically closer to West Eurasians than are individuals from lower castes, whose genetic profiles are similar to other Asians. These results indicate that at some point male West Eurasians provided a significant genetic input into the higher castes, a result which supports the notion that the caste system was an attempt by these predominantly male arrivals to keep themselves separate from the native population. (http://jorde-lab.genetics.utah.edu/elibrary/Bamshad_2001a.pdf)


The genetic studies by Michael J Bamshad and his team (2001) from University of Utah and Dr. Spencer Wells (2003) give strong backing to the Aryan invasion/migration theory.


In the study by M.J Bamshad and his team [4] they wrote, "Our results demonstrate that for biparentally inherited autosomal markers, genetic distances between upper, middle, and lower castes are significantly correlated with rank; upper castes are more similar to Europeans than to Asians; and upper castes are significantly more similar to Europeans than are lower castes."

(http://jorde-lab.genetics.utah.edu/elibrary/Bamshad_2001a.pdf)


The genetic study involves the analysis of genetic material known as the Mitochondrial DNA which is only passed maternally and so it is used to study female inheritance. The male-determining Y chromosome, is passed along paternally and is therefore used to study male inheritance. The evidence implies that few millennia ago group of males with (Eastern) European affinities invaded the Indian subcontinent from the Northwest of the sub-continent.


The researchers went on to state that genetic variations between upper castes and lower castes is the evidence to the origin of the caste system. The people who were either migrating or invading the sub-continent had descendants in the male population largely in the higher castes than in the lower castes. The researchers state that these invading or migrating people might have instituted the caste system.


In the abstract to their paper the researchers stated, "In the most recent of these waves, Indo-European -speaking people from West Eurasia entered India from the Northwest and diffused throughout the subcontinent. They purportedly admixed with or displaced indigenous Dravidic-speaking populations. Subsequently they may have established the Hindu caste system and placed themselves primarily in castes of higher rank."


The study also revealed another classic anthropological observation, that of women being significantly more mobile in terms of caste and hierarchical class than men, who are almost not socially mobile at all in terms of caste and hierarchical class. Genetic evidence reveals that over millennia men have married women from lower castes but women have rarely married men from lower castes. Thus the researchers imply that caste and class to a large extent is perpetuated by women and has also thereby contributed to the minimal mixing of Aryan blood with the natives.


A study conducted by Quintana-Murci [2000] present genetic evidence for the occurrence of two major population movements, supporting a model of demic diffusion of early farmers from southwestern Iranand of pastoral nomads from western and central Asiainto India, associated with Dravidian and Indo-Europeanlanguage dispersals, respectively.


A study conducted by R Spencer Wells et al focuses on the non-recombining portion of the Y-chromosome and provide an insight into the earliest patterns of settlement of anatomically modern humans on the Eurasian continent. Central Asia is revealed to be an important reservoir of genetic diversity, and the source of at least three major waves of migration leading into Europe, the Americas, and India. The genetic results are interpreted in the context of Eurasian linguistic patterns.


In the 2003 study, Basu et al provide genomic evidence that (1) there is an underlying unity of female lineages in India, indicating that the initial number of female settlers may have been small; (2) the tribal and the caste populations are highly differentiated; (3) the Austro-Asiatic tribals are the earliest settlers in India, providing support to one anthropological hypothesis while refuting some others; (4) a major wave of humans entered India through the northeast; (5) the Tibeto-Burman tribals share considerable genetic commonalities with the Austro-Asiatic tribals, supporting the hypothesis that they may have shared a common habitat in southern China, but the two groups of tribals can be differentiated on the basis of Y-chromosomal haplotypes; (6) the Dravidian tribals were possibly widespread throughout India before the arrival of the Indo-European-speaking nomads, but retreated to southern India to avoid dominance; (7) formation of populations by fission that resulted in founder and drift effects have left their imprints on the genetic structures of contemporary populations; (8) the upper castes show closer genetic affinities with Central Asian populations, although those of southern India are more distant than those of northern India; (9) historical gene flow into India has contributed to a considerable obliteration of genetic histories of contemporary populations so that there is at present no clear congruence of genetic and geographical or sociocultural affinities.


In a recent research paper in Current Biology, Cordaux et. al. confirms the Bamshad (2001) results and concludes that the paternal lineages of Indian caste groups are primarily descendants of Indo-European speakers who migrated from central Asia about 3,500 years ago. [cordaux:2004 (http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/CordauxCurBiol2004.pdf)]



Conclusion


The above summary and attached documents are provided to demonstrate the selective promotion of research material by the supporters of Vedic Foundation and the Hindu Education Foundation and the suppression of other, more recently available research that undermines their thesis is reflective of their priorities in promoting their ideological agendas over a factual, methodical and unbiased study of history. Further, this desire by VF/HEF supporters to “prove” by any means that Aryans are “indigenous” people directly relate to their contemporary political agenda back in India of distinguishing the “indigenous Aryan Hindus” from “foreign Muslim and Christian invaders” and thereby characterizing India’s Muslim and Christian minorities as “traitors” that need to be marginalized and persecuted. It is disturbing to witness how dangerously close these Hindu nationalist groups have come to whitewashing California’s school textbooks with their unsavory political agendas."


[/tscii:255668edca]

[pizzalot]

Watch this video of a ugly guy instigating people against other humans.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7987487391206129272

This is how probably they were instigating people on the non-privileged in the ancient days ?

[pizzalot]

I do not know about South but this what is happening in North. See other videos and tell me if these are the people who deserve to stand between us and God:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8817218285615987893

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3999417264077190830

[kannannn]

Pizzalot, let me try to get this deluge of information slowly.

1. Until Samkara there was no Hinduism as it stands in its present form. Samkara copied the Buddhist scriptures, modified them a little and re-published them as Upanishads. Theoretically it was Buddhism. This fraud happened during the 8th century. They destroyed and killed some Budhists and took away their shrines. According to Dr. K. Jamanadas even Tirumala was a Buddhist shrine.
check-out
http://www.dalitstan.org/books/tirupati/
The site does not work (and dalistan.org is a site that I don't fully trust. In their enthusiasm to bash the caste system, they end up claiming absurd things without proof at times). But Samkara has always been a controversial man. Some say he converted Buddhists through debate, while others say he secretly admired them. However, I do accept the point that Buddhism enjoyed majority patronage over large areas. ("The debate of king Milinda" is a wonderful book on how Buddhists converted kings from Hinduism to their fold)



3. Persians called us Hindus and refered us as Hindustanis. ( Wikipedia ). We accepted that name and live happily with that name until now. They having named us we must respect them. Usually the parents name us. So I call for a DNA study between the two nations which will clear everything. It looks like they gave us the language too. Hindi and Urdu they say, came from Persian and not Sanskrit. So what I see here is they named us and they taught us how to speak just like our parents will do. So we must love them.
Urdu-yes, but hindi, as we know today, is a mix of persian and sanskrit. Others please clarify.


4. They "Kushed" Hindus or a Hindu who Kushed lived there we do not know and so we should not talk about it. Also we had not adopted the name "Hindus" that time. So it was not us. Why bother about who was khushed ?

5. The major confusion here is because of the use of the word "Hindus". Shall we call ourselves as Non-Muslims ? Let me know if you all agree to it.
I have to admit, I am quite confused on this. The question may sound naive, but what is 'Kushed'?

And thanks a lot for the videos. Is the first video from 'The Final Solution'? The NDA govt. did all they could to prevent the release of this movie. So much for democracy and tolerance.

[Surya]

They were just a few hundreds. They ruled because the people favored their rule over the Indian Kings. No "divide and rule" policy would have succeeded if the rule itself was unpopular.

Here we go! Another Feather in the Cap of "Charming Unheard of Theories." Divide and Rule Never Existed! :lol: The Indians Loved The British! That's why Gandhi was so sucessful in creating a sucessful Uprising against the British. Gandhi Used PURE PROPAGANDA I'm Sure! :roll:


All the British and Muslims had to do was to take care of these minority Indian elites.

Okay...before I get to the later part of that paragraph....Please openly define these Elites! :roll:


And thanks a lot for the videos. Is the first video from 'The Final Solution'? The NDA govt. did all they could to prevent the release of this movie. So much for democracy and tolerance.

Such behavior arises when Tolerance itself is only expected from one sect of society.

[pizzalot]

Kannannn wrote:<quote>I have to admit, I am quite confused on this. The question may sound naive, but what is 'Kushed'? </quote>

Khush=Slaughter; "Khushed" I meant "Slaughtered";

Hindu Khush can be translated as both Hindu Slaughter as well as Hindu who salughtered.


Surya wrote:

<quote>All the British and Muslims had to do was to take care of these minority Indian elites. </quote>

It was Eelavar who first mentioned this word. I already asked him to "define" these elites.

Surya wrote:
<quote>Here we go! Another Feather in the Cap of "Charming Unheard of Theories." Divide and Rule Never Existed! The Indians Loved The British! That's why Gandhi was so sucessful in creating a sucessful Uprising against the British. Gandhi Used PURE PROPAGANDA I'm Sure! </quote>

How did Sri Lanka and other British colonies in Asia and Africa get their freedom ? Sure there was no Gandhi there.

It was the turn of events after the world war that gave us freedom. Both extremists and moderates sensed how the world order is changing and changed their themes as oppurtunists.

It is not a co-incidence that "Quit India Movement" and "INA" movements occured not before 1939.

Gandhi's earlier movements were simply protests against the Government on specific issues. He did not call for Independent rule. If he had started the Quit India movement in 1930, instead of Salt Satya Graha, there would have been no takers, my friend.

[pizzalot]

According to the Hindu propagandists the Muslims and the British ("to a far less extent!!") commited atrocities against the Hindus they are not the ones who is ruling us anymore. So what is the issue here ? The "elites" or "nobles" who benefited during both the rules want people to remember the "sins" of the recent foreigners so that they can still rule them ?

[pizzalot]

The link worked before Kannann.

This is from a different site, but the material is the same.

http://www.ambedkar.org/buddhism/K_Jamanadas_Proves_Tirupati_Temple_As_A_Buddhist_S hrine.htm

[crazy]

pizzalot thank u for those links, but i couldnt watch most of them, will try later!

what r u trying to tell us?
sorry.

[Eelavar]

crazy, LOL.

I too don't understood what he tried to say us.

Maybe that Genocide of Hindus never happened...
Or maybe that Hindus commited the biggest genocide of the World..

I cannot understand him, he is not clear and is very confused.

[dsath]

It was the turn of events after the world war that gave us freedom. Both extremists and moderates sensed how the world order is changing and changed their themes as oppurtunists.


This is very true. If Britian hadn't gone bankrupt and had the Conservative party won the elections after the war, i doubt if we would have got 'Independence' when we got it.



It is not a co-incidence that "Quit India Movement" and "INA" movements occured not before 1939.

Gandhi's earlier movements were simply protests against the Government on specific issues. He did not call for Independent rule. If he had started the Quit India movement in 1930, instead of Salt Satya Graha, there would have been no takers, my friend.
This explains that India hadn't had one leader in the last 500 years with a far sighted vision.
As far as the divide and rule policy goes, India was never one country before the British came and all the states came under one umbrella mainly because the British found it easy to rule one big geographical area rather than smaller states.
The divide and rule policy that British started was on Religious lines. Its really sad to see that the British have left us, but we haven't let go of their policies.

[Eelavar]

Its really sad to see that the British have left us

I'm sorry , i cannot be agree.

Britishes did more pain than gifts. :cry:

Dsath are you british ? :roll:

[crazy]

Its really sad to see that the British have left us

I'm sorry , i cannot be agree.

Britishes did more pain than gifts. :cry:

Dsath are you british ? :roll:

yes what do u excatly mean by "they have left us"?

[dsath]

Its really sad to see that the British have left us

I'm sorry , i cannot be agree.

Britishes did more pain than gifts. :cry:

Dsath are you british ? :roll:

yes what do u excatly mean by "they have left us"?

Pls read the whole sentence, i am not sad that the British left us, but i am sad that the policies they formulated hadn't left us still.
For example dividing the population on religious lines, the strict dress code, worst of all their civil services system and roundabouts on roads(my pet among the lot).
Look where all the our tax money goes, to Russians, Americans and Europeans to buy rockets,tanks,fighter planes and what not. While with all that money we could have built roads,schools and fed the millions living under poverty line.

[crazy]

Its really sad to see that the British have left us

I'm sorry , i cannot be agree.

Britishes did more pain than gifts. :cry:

Dsath are you british ? :roll:

yes what do u excatly mean by "they have left us"?

Pls read the whole sentence, i am not sad that the British left us, but i am sad that the policies they formulated hadn't left us still.
For example dividing the population on religious lines, the strict dress code, worst of all their civil services system and roundabouts on roads(my pet among the lot).
Look where all the our tax money goes, to Russians, Americans and Europeans to buy rockets,tanks,fighter planes and what not. While with all that money we could have built roads,schools and fed the millions living under poverty line.

yes we could have build a lots of things with those money, but we r also in need of those weapons and missiles! it keeps ur country together, keeps our enemies out of ur border..........ofcourse i agree that we could have put those money and taxes and some better way, but it wasnt the fault of politicans only.............people have also their contribution here!
we people have been stupid and we didnt work hard enough to build or country...........
again this can we blame with high illiteracy in our country...........but can also blame the literated people who runs to foreign country in hope of better :roll: life than rather staying here in our country and help building it up!
why r we so stupid? how long r we going to blame the politicians, how long r we going to be naive, how long r we going to sit and blame?

what do u think we could do to make ur country rich and powerful?

[crazy]

ok ok
i should stick to the topic!
sorry.

[dsath]

pizzalot, some of your views are interesting, esp your reliance on DNA as opposed to some wild theories.
Sure there are many cultural differences between different parts of India. That might explain a few things.
I have a query for you. What do you think Ashoka was before he became a Buddhist. What religion do u think he followed?
And one other thing, i find the term Rig Vedic people used often in your posts. I cannot understand what is your interpretation of Rig Vedic people.

[pizzalot]

Its really sad to see that the British have left us

I'm sorry , i cannot be agree.

Britishes did more pain than gifts. :cry:

Dsath are you british ? :roll:

Different people will give different answers Eelavar. Ask a Kashmiri and he will say the British were far better. In one of your posts about Sri Lanka, you did seem to regret that the British had left leaving the Island to some fanatics. You do not need to be British to love British. Our constitution itself is based on British and so there is nothing wrong even if someone admired the British.

Why do you keep asking people if they were British, Hindu, Muslim etc ? What is your motive ? Why do you care ? I believe we should be able express our views and there is no need for anyone to express their identity. I welcome someone's ideas even if he/she were British or Americans. Who someone is should not really matter here. So come out of smaller circles first.

[pizzalot]

pizzalot, some of your views are interesting, esp your reliance on DNA as opposed to some wild theories.
Sure there are many cultural differences between different parts of India. That might explain a few things.
I have a query for you. What do you think Ashoka was before he became a Buddhist. What religion do u think he followed?
And one other thing, i find the term Rig Vedic people used often in your posts. I cannot understand what is your interpretation of Rig Vedic people.

I am sorry Dsath, if I sounded narrow minded. I did not mean any race here. I just meant "nature loving people, who are not intellectuals." In today's scenario they would be people who live in smallest villages and tribal in life-style as opposed to the "elite" people of later Vedas and Upanishads.

[pizzalot]

pizzalot, some of your views are interesting, esp your reliance on DNA as opposed to some wild theories.
Sure there are many cultural differences between different parts of India. That might explain a few things.
I have a query for you. What do you think Ashoka was before he became a Buddhist. What religion do u think he followed?
And one other thing, i find the term Rig Vedic people used often in your posts. I cannot understand what is your interpretation of Rig Vedic people.

For sure he was not a worhiper of Ram or Krishna, I can guarantee you that. Upanishads were not written, yet, and so Krishna had not yet recited the Upanishads in the Gita yet.

There was only one thing common between the Hindus of today and his people before converting into Buddhism. It was Varna system. He was born to Brahmin lady called Dharma. Other than that nothingelse.

If you say that he was a Hindu before adopting Budhism, that means you agree that "Hinduism" is nothing but "Varna" system.